▶ 0:11:47The committee will please come to order. A quorum is present. The committee meets today pursuant to notice. Without objection, the chair may recess the committee at any point. Dominating global research rankings, American universities remain among the top academic institutions in the world, and that's how it ought to be.
▶ 0:12:11They're entrusted with hundreds of billions in taxpayer funding, research and federal student aid to help develop the next generation of leaders and drive cutting-edge scientific discovery. I just left a meeting starting in my office on myeloma research that has some very promising things taking place, and that's what we're looking for through the research that goes on at our institutions.
▶ 0:12:38Uh the free exchange of ideas is a core American principle and a cornerstone of higher education. International collaboration, whether through welcoming international students or creating international research partnerships, when done right, have a very positive effect for our country. However, it would be naive and reckless to ignore the dangerous the serious dangers facing our higher education system.
▶ 0:13:06Foreign adversaries, particularly geopolitical rivals like the Chinese Communist Party, CCP, are actively competing against our nation's interests on the battlegrounds of our university campuses. They're unafraid to exploit American good intentions for ill-gotten gains.
▶ 0:13:25I'm proud that this committee has been a leader in combating malign foreign influence on college Last year, the House passed the DETERRENT Act, which uh was a strong bipartisan vote for a second Congress in a in a row.
▶ 0:13:43DETERRENT would bring much-needed transparency to foreign gifts and contracts under section 117 of the Higher Education Act, and I'll continue working to get it signed into This committee's oversight has brought uh to light troubling partnerships between American universities and the CCP's defense-linked institutions, including joint research institutes, operating with American campuses.
▶ 0:14:13As a result of this work, many universities have taken steps to shut down these programs. The Trump administration and Secretary McMahon have also taken this issue The Education Department has launched multiple section 117 compliance investigations, improved the usability of disclosed data, and just last month announced an interagency agreement with the Department of State to incorporate the State Department in national security
▶ 0:14:46Despite this progress, recent recent events make it clear that the threat remains active. Last summer, there were multiple instances of potential foreign espionage on US campuses. At the University of Michigan, students, employees, and faculty have been charged and sentenced for conspiracy and smuggling-related crimes.
▶ 0:15:11At Stanford, students were approached by foreign nationals posing as peers in an effort to get students to travel to China and share research. These institutes are these instances must not be swept under the rug, and I'm excited to discuss them more in depth today at this hearing. Institutions must be proactive in addressing these threats.
▶ 0:15:35They should not wait for a congressional or hearing before taking a hard look at their campus culture, vetting processes, and compliances uh with the law. Openness is one of our great strengths, but it cannot become our greatest We can and we must ensure that academic collaboration strengthens America, not our adversaries.
▶ 0:16:03With that, I yield to the ranking member, the gentlelady from Oregon, Ms. Uh thank you, Mr. Chairman, and thank you to the witnesses for for being here today. A college degree remains a sure path to the American dream, and it's the most reliable engine of economic mobility we have. With job numbers failing and the cost of living rising, it's vital that we protect and uplift paths to economic opportunity.
▶ 0:16:28College graduates earn more, they experience lower unemployment rates, and they're better positioned to support their families and contribute to their communities and the economy. Right now, our country is in the midst of a college affordability crisis. Students and families are being forced to take out crushing loans that may take them decades to repay. Today's hearing is ostensibly about espionage and foreign influence in higher education, something we have discussed in this committee numerous times.
▶ 0:16:57Unfortunately, I fear that today's discussion will once again focus on xenophobic xenophobic conspiracy theories and culture war debates instead of addressing real barriers that college students are facing. Allow me to be blunt. The greatest threat facing students today is not foreign influence or espionage in higher education. Although these problems may exist, we can't easily quantify how or even whether they affect student life.
▶ 0:17:22And according to the testimony submitted today, which I have read, the processes are in place to address any foreign threat. They seem to be doing a decent job. I read your testimony. Uh and uh there doesn't seem to be anything close to a university under siege, which is what the title of this hearing portrays.
▶ 0:17:40What we can quantify, however, is the enormous and detrimental effect of the Trump administration's attacks on higher education, on student borrowers, on their families, which is why committee Democrats have invited a representative from the Government Accountability Office today to provide us with real data and facts. Since the Trump administration returned to office, Secretary McMahon has been trying to carry out President Trump's stated goal of dismantling the Department of Education to devastating effect.
▶ 0:18:08To date, the Department has signed at least 10 interagency agreements to transfer its programs away from the experts at the Department to other agencies. These moves have proven to be inefficient, wasteful, and harmful to students and families who are now being forced to deal with multiple These programs have been thrust upon agencies that do not have the knowledge or the expertise about complex topics like student financial aid, and they do not understand the importance of successful programs like TRIO and GEAR UP that increase the educational
▶ 0:18:39success of first-generation college students. Recently, the GAO released a report showing that the Department's Office of Federal Student Aid has actually stopped key oversight on loan servicers. In its oversight of the $1.6 billion student loan portfolio, the Department is required I think it's trillion. The Department is required by law to ensure student loan servicers provide borrowers with accurate information about their loans.
▶ 0:19:04And when they do not, borrowers can either overpay or be placed in the wrong student loan repayment program. So, the Department's refusal to conduct robust oversight of student loan services is a dereliction of duty. Importantly, when the Department conducted oversight during the Biden administration, it issued penalties to four out of the five servicers because they failed failed to meet accuracy standards. And now, without that oversight, the government is likely paying servicers for subpar or even illegal performance.
▶ 0:19:33And just last week, the Department transferred its portfolio of defaulted student loans to the Treasury Department. Borrowers in default need support, but now they will have limited access to the Department's subject matter experts. This transfer means that student borrowers who may be eligible for discharge or other relief will need to discuss their situation with people who frankly don't have a clue about the how the program works. Uh the department has also announced that it intends to hand over other student aid responsibilities to Treasury despite its lack of expertise.
▶ 0:20:03It certainly looks like the Trump administration's goal is to intentionally create key chaos and confusion for these borrowers, many of whom are already in dire financial straits. Furthermore, the big ugly law is about to make major changes to income-driven repayment, changes that will affect millions of Americans. But, because of the reductions in force, the rifts, there are not enough staff left at the department to implement these changes and help borrowers navigate them.
▶ 0:20:29Starting on July 1st, millions of Americans will be left in the dark with no resources to help them. And to make matters worse for students, the Trump administration's dismantling of the Office for Civil Rights has undermined our ability to address discrimination in and schools. In March of 2025, OCR staff was cut in half. Seven of its 12 regional offices were forced to close. This move was not only devastating for students seeking resources for discrimination on campus, it was also inefficient and wasteful.
▶ 0:20:59A recent GAO report revealed that these layoffs may have cost US taxpayers more than $38 If that doesn't qualify as waste, fraud, and abuse, I'm not sure what does. So, it is irresponsible and short-sighted for this committee to focus on vague threats of espionage which seem to be addressed by the universities, and instead of addressing the real problems in front of us. It's time for Congress to step up and do its duty to protect students and families from the overreaches and abuses of the Trump administration.
▶ 0:21:28So, I urge my colleagues to listen to the unbiased reporting of GAO and consider whether blind loyalty to this administration is worth the costs outlined today. Thank you, Mr. Chairman. I yield back the balance of my time. I thank the gentle lady. Uh pursuant to committee rule 8C, all members who wish to insert written statements into the record may do so by submitting them to the committee clerk electronically in Microsoft Word format by 5:00 p.m. 14 days after this hearing.
▶ 0:21:57And without objection, the hearing record will remain open for 14 days to allow such statements and other extraneous material noted during the hearing to be submitted for the official hearing records. I now turn to the introduction of our four witnesses. And in light of the Sweet 16 success thus far, go blue. Uh it's a it's a delight to uh welcome uh Dr.
▶ 0:22:22Domenico Grasso, the interim president of the University of Michigan in Ann Arbor, Michigan, who uh certainly took over the interim position in a very interesting period of time, and thank you for the service you provided to the Uh to introduce our second witness, I would like to recognize the representative from Florida, Mr. Fine. Well, thank you, Mr. Chairman, and it's always great to be able to introduce somebody from Florida, where I live.
▶ 0:22:50I'd note that we have passed bills, as I'll talk about in my 5 minutes, to deal with what is a real problem. Um I want to just introduce Cassandra Farley. She's the senior director of research integrity, security, and compliance at the University of Florida, uh Florida's preeminent institution in Gainesville, Florida. She's got an MBA from the University of South Florida and a BA in economics from the University of Florida.
▶ 0:23:13She's also a certified compliance and ethics professional and an active contributed contributor to national organizations supporting research integrity, export controls, and research security. And I'm excited to hear her comments on how we are doing things right in Florida. Thank you, Mr. Chairman. Welcome, and I thank the gentleman. Our third witness is Ms. Melissa Em Riera, the director of Education, Workforce, and Income Security team at the Government Accountability Office in Washington, D.C. Welcome.
▶ 0:23:44Our last witness is Elsa Johnson, the editor-in-chief of the Stanford Review in Stanford, California. Welcome. We thank the witnesses for being here today. Uh pursuant to committee rules, I would ask that you each limit your oral presentation to a 3-minute summary of your written statement. The clock will count down from 3 minutes as committee members have many questions for you, and we would like to spend as much time as possible on questions.
▶ 0:24:14However, pursuant to committee rule 8D and committee practice, we will not cut off your testimony until you reach the 5-minute mark. I would also like to remind the witnesses to be aware of their responsibility to provide accurate information to the committee. Having said all of that, uh I will now recognize Dr. Grasso for your testimony. Thank you, Chairman Walberg.
▶ 0:24:40Chairman Walberg, ranking member Scott, and members of the committee, thank you for the opportunity to speak with you today about research security at the University of Michigan. My name is Domenico Grasso, and I have the privilege and honor of serving as a president of the University of Michigan since May 2025. My term will end this coming May.
▶ 0:25:01As an engineer and an Army veteran who currently holds a top-secret security clearance, I'm deeply committed to protecting our nation's security and ensuring that the university continues to support the research, talent, and partnerships that help make Michigan special. The University of Michigan is one of the nation's largest and most prominent research universities.
▶ 0:25:24It comprises three campuses and nearly 75,000 undergraduate and graduate students and 60,000 faculty and staff. We have more than 110 programs ranked in the top 10 across the nation. With a $16 billion budget, the university engages in a broad range of activities driving our mission of academic excellence, innovation, and public service.
▶ 0:25:51University is involved in a remarkable array of newsworthy activities. To give you a sense of the scale and national scope, not including sports news like the Sweet 16, which Chairman Walberg just mentioned, last year, the University of Michigan was covered nearly 600 times in just the New York Times and the Wall Street Journal. There's a lot to follow. The university is a world leader in scientific and technological advancement.
▶ 0:26:18In 2025 alone, Michigan researchers developed more than 600 new inventions, launched 30 new startups, and received more than research awards. These milestones are made possible by Michigan's ability to attract the best and the brightest from every corner of the United States and the world.
▶ 0:26:39One example of the university's advanced research capabilities, and one close to my heart as an engineer and former Army officer, is our work towards keeping our country and the world safe from nuclear The University of Michigan researchers have developed the first-ever imager that can detect both gamma rays and neutrons, an astonishing breakthrough in our nation's ability to detect material capable of producing nuclear weapons.
▶ 0:27:07Housing some of the world's greatest minds makes the University of Michigan a potential target of threats such as research espionage, unauthorized technology transfer, and foreign talent recruitment programs. That is why the university has established a comprehensive program to safeguard our research from America's adversaries. We share this committee's commitment to research integrity and have no tolerance for behavior that may risk the security of our nation.
▶ 0:27:35In isolated but serious incidents, a small number of university students and researchers from China have been arrested for unlawful activities. In each case, individuals carried out their unlawful acts without the university's knowledge. Once alerted, we acted swiftly and decisively, working with federal law enforcement, promptly terminating student work visas, and severing all ties with those individuals.
▶ 0:28:02The university has a comprehensive research security and compliance program, which includes risk management for international collaborations, mandatory training, and data security protocols to ensure secure and safe research. We are meeting the increased threat with increased security. We are setting university-wide standards for visiting researchers and expanding use of background checks.
▶ 0:28:27We are enhancing oversight of biological materials entering or leaving university labs and strengthening physical security. And we are working to open more regular lines of communication with federal regulatory, law enforcement, and intelligence agencies. Safety and security is a team effort. And at Michigan, we know how important it is to be a team player. We stand committed to protecting the interests and security of the United States.
▶ 0:28:53This commitment is illustrated by our decision to end a relationship with a university in China that is seen as a potential threat to America's interests. We made this decision after discussion with this committee and the House Select Committee on the CCP. We have a special bond with this committee as three of our close Michigan friends and neighbors, Chairman Walberg and Congresswoman McClain and Stevens, serve on it.
▶ 0:29:17We look forward to continuing our dialogue with this committee to ensure that the interests of Michigan and of the nation are protected from both known threats we face today and those that may occur in the future. I I look forward to our conversation. Thank I now recognize Ms.
▶ 0:29:38Farley for your Chairman Walberg, ranking member Scott, distinguished committee members, and fellow witnesses, thank you for the opportunity to testify today. I am Cassandra Farley, senior director of research integrity, security, and compliance at the University of Florida, where I serve as the institution's research security officer. I am testifying today on behalf of the University of Florida and UF's research security program.
▶ 0:30:04UF is a large public research university, home to 16 colleges and more than 170 research centers and institutes. This past fiscal year, UF had over 1.3 3 billion in research expenditures. In the same period, UF received more than 817 million in awards from federal granting agencies, with significant funding coming from the Department of Health and Human Services, US Department of Agriculture, and the National Science Foundation.
▶ 0:30:31Our partnership with these agencies helps our researchers solve some of society's most pressing problems in healthcare, agriculture, space, and beyond. Today, I want to highlight how UF protects that research enterprise from undue foreign influence.
▶ 0:30:46Beginning in 2018, our federal partners notified universities of increasing concerns about threats from foreign entities, particularly talent programs tied to the Chinese government, in which researchers sign undisclosed agreements requiring them to publish federally funded find findings under foreign affiliations, and recruit others into these programs.
▶ 0:31:06In response, federal agencies clarified their expectations, and President Trump released National Security Memorandum 33, directing the development of research security program requirements across federal agencies. Florida acted swiftly as well. In 2021, the Florida legislature unanimously passed and Governor DeSantis signed into law the act relating to foreign influence, establishing a series of statutes that are the foundation of UF's research security program today.
▶ 0:31:33These statutes require that Florida universities regularly report foreign gifts, contracts, and agreements, have a centralized international review and approval process, and screen all research and research support hires. The statutes also prohibit gifts from entities in foreign countries of concern, and bar agreements with such entities without prior approval from the for Florida Board of Governors.
▶ 0:31:55To build our research security program, UF made significant investments in personnel, technology, and new processes to further improve our compliance This research security program has several core components. Screening all new research hires and visiting scholars through a risk-based review process that evaluates background affiliations and the nature of the proposed research. Reviewing all international agreements, regardless of funding source. Maintaining a robust export control compliance operation.
▶ 0:32:25Reviewing all international travel in advance and requiring compliance certifications from every traveler. And mandating annual research security training for all federal award personnel, as required by the CHIPS and Science Act. Additionally, as a matter of policy, UF will not enter into any contract, agreement, or activity with any entity on the US government restricted party Through strategic investments in its research security program, and partnership and collaboration at both the state and federal levels, the
▶ 0:32:55University of Florida continues to demonstrate that it can support and enable innovative and groundbreaking research, while many meaningfully working to secure the research enterprise. Thank you. Thank you. Now, I recognize Ms. Emery Eras for your Thank you, Chairman Walberg, Ranking Member Scott, and members of the committee. I am pleased to be here today to discuss the Department of Education's role in ensuring accountability in higher education.
▶ 0:33:23Education's responsibilities include overseeing colleges, federal student aid, and the servicers that help administer the student loan program. My remarks today addressed recent work examining Education's oversight of student loan servicers. I will also address key prior GAO recommendations that Education has yet to implement. Earlier this month, we reported on the impact of recent staffing reductions on Education's oversight of its student loan servicers.
▶ 0:33:52Specifically, we reported that in February of 2025, Education stopped assessing student loan servicers on accuracy and call quality due to lack of staff capacity, according to Education officials.
▶ 0:34:06The two metrics were intended to measure whether student loan servicers were one, keeping complete and accurate records for borrowers, and two, providing borrowers good customer The decision to stop assessing these performance metrics occurred shortly after the administration began issuing presidential directives on downsizing the federal workforce.
▶ 0:34:29Education reported that between January and December of 2025, the number of staff at its Office of Federal Student Aid decreased 46%. Without this servicer oversight, Education lacks reasonable assurance that borrower records are correct. Inaccurate records can result in borrowers being billed for incorrect or placed in the wrong repayment status.
▶ 0:34:55Additionally, borrowers need to be given correct information when they call for help. To address these concerns, we recommended that Education assess servicer accuracy and call quality. Implementing our recommendations from prior years could also help Education strengthen accountability.
▶ 0:35:14For example, implementing our 2019 recommendations to improve verification of borrower income and family size could help reduce the risk of fraud and error in certain repayment plans, and potentially save over 2 billion. Similarly, implementing our 2017 recommendation to update the formula for measuring the financial condition of colleges could help protect taxpayers against the financial risk of college closures.
▶ 0:35:42Finally, implementing our 2016 recommendation to improve tracking of borrower complaints could help Education better track trends and ensure the program effectively meets borrower In conclusion, Education should take action to strengthen accountability and better protect borrowers and taxpayers. Thank you. Thank you. And now, back to our topic for this morning, I recognize Ms.
▶ 0:36:13Johnson for your testimony. Chairman, Ranking Member, and distinguished members of the committee. Thank you for the opportunity to testify My name is Elsa Johnson. I'm a junior at Stanford University studying East Asian studies with a focus on China, and I serve as the editor-in-chief of the Stanford Review, the independent paper on campus. I'm here because I was personally targeted by a suspected agent of the Chinese Communist Party while conducting research at Stanford.
▶ 0:36:42I grew up in Minneapolis, Minnesota, where I attended a Chinese language immersion school from kindergarten through 8th grade. I chose Stanford to deepen my understanding of a country whose language and culture have shaped my upbringing. In the spring of my freshman year at Stanford, I began working as a research assistant at the Hoover Institution, focused on Chinese industry and military That summer, a man calling himself Charles Chen reached out to me on social He had mutual followers with me and photos of Stanford on his profile.
▶ 0:37:13Over the following weeks, he asked detailed questions about my background, offered to pay for a trip to China, sent me a flight itinerary to Shanghai, and pressured me to move our conversation to WeChat, an app that is monitored by the Then, he publicly commented on one of my Instagram posts in Mandarin, asking me to delete screenshots I had taken of our I do not know how he knew I had these The FBI confirmed he had no affiliation with Stanford.
▶ 0:37:43He was likely operating on behalf of China's Ministry of State Security. I was one of at least 10 female students he targeted since 2020. After my co-author, Garrett Malloy, and I published our investigation, the incidents worsened. I began receiving intimidation calls where callers would switch to Mandarin, and in one case, the caller referenced my mother. Just this week, I received another call from US number. After exchanging hellos, the caller switched to Mandarin and asked whether I had finished dinner.
▶ 0:38:14I have also received threatening scam emails attempting to convince me to take down my reporting on this issue. This fall, the FBI informed me that I'm being physically monitored on Stanford's campus by agents of the CCP, and that my family is also being watched. I was fortunate to be at the Hoover Institution when I was targeted. The scholars there connected me with the If I had not been at Hoover, I don't know how I would have gotten There was no university resource to call, no tip line to contact.
▶ 0:38:46I was a freshman navigating a foreign intelligence operation with no institutional support. After our investigations were published, Stanford issued a statement saying it was looking into the reports. That was almost a year ago, and nothing meaningful has changed. The university has not established a reporting mechanism for transnational repression. It has not provided resources for students targeted by foreign governments. Stanford has the resources to build these systems. The question is whether the university has the will.
▶ 0:39:15I'm testifying today because if this can happen to me, it is certainly happening to other students across the country who do not have a platform or path to law enforcement. American universities are supposed to be places where people can think and speak freely. Right now, for many students, they are not. Thank you. Thank you, Ms. Johnson.
▶ 0:39:38Under committee rule nine, we'll now question witnesses under the 5-minute I will now recognize myself for 5 minutes. President Grasso, uh the current director of the University of Michigan's Center for Chinese Studies and Sheena Lin uh was quoted in in 2022 saying this.
▶ 0:40:05She said that she believes the FBI, and I quote, has overstated the threat of technology transfer. Um unquote. Uh from China because of the type of research that's published. Uh does this statement um by Ann Chih Lin reflect the university's view of threats to research security?
▶ 0:40:31Um and if not, what tangible policy reforms have been made at the university, particularly in light of the mut- multiple incidents last summer? Thank you, uh Congressman. Uh my understanding of that statement by Ann Chih Lin is that uh she has told others that she was mis- uh quoted in the statement. Nonetheless, that statement is something that we don't agree with at all.
▶ 0:40:58We find threats from overseas to be a considerable uh point of interest for us that we need to protect against. Uh research security is absolutely fundamental to our mission. Uh uh a few years ago there was National Security Presidential Memorandum Number 33 that was uh put out with regard to protecting our national interests and security.
▶ 0:41:22We actually hired the authors of that uh memo to help us build a stronger and more robust research program. We have a strong program, and it continues to get better. For example, let me just tell you some of the things that we do. We've expanded our background checks. We've increased our channels of communications with federal uh agencies. We have improved our data security and physical security.
▶ 0:41:46We require mandatory training of all of our researchers based on NSF Secure, the NSF Secure website, which is We follow the the best practices that NSF has uh put out. We prevent conflicts of interest through a process where everyone is uh is required to disclose, and we use a form called M-inform. We have com- comprehensive research uh a comprehensive research security program that also includes uh risk management for international collaborations.
▶ 0:42:16And I might uh mention that we use NSF's NSF's uh policy on managing international collaborations that was put together with uh the Jasons and uh Mitre Corporation. And I just as a point of interest, uh my brother uh was uh president of Mitre Corporation. So, uh national security is incredibly important to both of us in our family, uh and we are very committed to national security. Okay. Thank you.
▶ 0:42:47Ms. Farley, um some argue that research security efforts risk stereotyping and targeting those who come from different racial uh or ethnic backgrounds. How do research security efforts at the University of Florida uh protect faculty and students with all Thank you for that question.
▶ 0:43:10At the University of Florida, our new hire screening of researchers and research support positions occurs for all new hires, regardless of national origin or citizenship. We are committed to hiring the best and the brightest at the University of Florida, so we use a risk-based review process to review education, affiliations, employment history, and ongoing affiliations, as well as the nature of the research as we conduct those reviews.
▶ 0:43:38We also review all travel, regardless of destination. Um and all of those things happen within my office and are overseen um by senior leadership. Hm. Comprehensive. Common sense, it appears. Um thank you. Ms.
▶ 0:43:53Johnson, you could write a book about your freshman and sophomore years uh at at in your in your testimony, you mentioned Section 117 of the Higher Education Act as well as deterrent, uh which this committee moved across House floor last year. How does the public transparency in Section 117 help you as a citizen and a journalist hold the institutions accountable? Thank you.
▶ 0:44:23Uh I think the Section 117 funding portal has also has already been extremely valuable um to myself and my writers as journalists. Um I think being able to see uh where Stanford's money's coming from is really important, and I think that we have a right to access that information. Okay. It certainly gives um a target for further information to be gained, doesn't it? Yeah.
▶ 0:44:51Well, I wish you well. Um my time is expired, so I now rec- recognize the uh gentlelady from Oregon, Ms. Bonamici, for her 5 minutes of questioning. I I move to uh represent Representative Takano from California for your 5 minutes of questioning. Uh thank you, Mr. Chairman.
▶ 0:45:13For decades, scholars, researchers, and intellectuals have come to our research institutions because the United States is a global powerhouse scientifically and academically. We take the best and brightest from our allies and adversaries alike and bring them to study and work for the United Our higher education system has been our greatest soft power asset. The benefits are significant.
▶ 0:45:40Over a third of Nobel Prizes won by the United States were won by foreign-born researchers and professionals. Among Chinese-born students, over 85% of PhD students stay in the United States long after completing their programs, and international scholars contribute tens of billions of dollars a year to our There is no disputing that we are in the midst of intense competition with China.
▶ 0:46:06China is the number one global leader in trade, manufacturing, STEM graduates, automation, critical manuals, critical minerals, biotech biotech, pharmaceuticals, and array of other I agree that the risk of CCP-related intellectual property theft is significant and concerning, and it will always it will continue unless we remain However, China is not surpassing us in these areas because they are stealing our technology.
▶ 0:46:34China is exceeding uh us because they have spent years investing in research and development, studying other countries, adopting technology, and building universities. They have invested heavily in education. And while they rapidly develop and expand their research infrastructure, this administration and this majority have hobbled ours.
▶ 0:46:55Our universities and colleges have been attacked, demeaned, stripped of their research funding for merely disagreeing with the International students have had their visas arbitrarily revoked without explanation. Researchers have been targeted, investigated, and publicly accused of crimes they did not commit. And if that sounds like the tactics of an authoritarian CCP, that's because it is.
▶ 0:47:20This administration is adopting the very same practices that we decry China In the past, students and scholars came to this country because American higher education was an arena where free speech was not just protected, it was encouraged. Students and professors alike can study, innovate, debate, and collaborate freely.
▶ 0:47:41Approaches like the SAFE Research Act, which would restrict colleges from accessing research grant funding if they or their researchers have any affiliation with China, openly attack that model. The proposal is the legislative equivalent of cutting off the nose to spite the face.
▶ 0:48:00If we entirely cease all forms of relationship with China in the immediate term, as this administration favors, we give up a significant proportion of our best minds and the workforce in our university researchers and labs. We part for- we put forth an authoritarian response to combat We also attack some of our best innovators.
▶ 0:48:24The unmitigated failures of the China Initiative prove that this heavy-handed approach is not only ineffective, it is incredibly harmful and highly racially biased. In 2021, Dr. Gang Chen, the former head of MIT's engineering department, was arrested, investigated, and publicly accused of being loyal to China. He had lived and worked in the United States for decades and been a dis- a citizen for 20 years.
▶ 0:48:50After 2 years of investigation, the charges were dismissed, but not before his research had been halted and his grants had been lost. Years later, he went on to head the development of what is now recognized as the best semiconductor material yet material yet discovered for its speed and durability. Had the China Initiative succeeded in sending Dr. Chen back to China, the US would not have that technology.
▶ 0:49:16The China Initiative has been has had incredibly tragic consequences as well. In 2019, Dr. Jane Wu was targeted by a China Initiative investigation. Dr. Wu was a neuroscientist studying cancer and ALS that had been in the and that had been in the US for 40 years and a citizen since uh the year 2000. Dr. Wu was cleared after 2 years, but in that time she lost access to her lab, her research, and her funding.
▶ 0:49:44She committed suicide in 2024. When it comes to policy making, vehemence does not equal competence. And rather than chest-beating and name-calling, we must pursue solutions that balance both academic freedom and national security. We should strengthen the bipartisan proposals that have been put forth and treat this issue with the gravity it deserves, not use it as another opportunity for political grandstanding.
▶ 0:50:14I yield back, Mr. Chairman. I thank the gentleman. I recognize the gentlelady from New York. Thank you, Chairman Walberg. Mr. Grosso, last year facing congressional pressure, Michigan ended its partnership with Shanghai Jiao Tong University after five Chinese students were caught spying at night and taking illegal photos of US military drills and equipment on the remote Michigan installation Camp These students lied and misled US law enforcement about their motives
▶ 0:50:45and later conspired on the CCP-controlled messaging app WeChat to clear their phones and cameras of photos and evidence. Has the university conducted a full audit to determine what intellectual property or federally funded research was compromised? we are unaware of any research that was compromised by these individual students.
▶ 0:51:10What they did was at Camp Grayling miles and miles away from campus, and they were arrested for taking pictures of of a military installation, and they were
▶ 0:51:21they were students though, did you do an audit on whether there was any access to any research being conducted on the university campus? I understand Camp Camp Grayling is off campus, but was there an audit conducted?
▶ 0:51:34Well, they were they were not researchers. They were undergraduate students. So, uh we did not do an audit, but I suspect that they were not unless they did something nefarious, they did not have any access to any of our research. Well, they did do something nefarious off campus. I think it would be important for the university to ensure that there is a full audit conducted to make sure that no research that they didn't take any nefarious acts there.
▶ 0:52:00Are there currently any Chinese nationals at Michigan involved in research funded by either the Department of War or any federal agency? Uh we have many Chinese students and scholars on our campus. I don't know what all their projects are.
▶ 0:52:16To your previous point, we will I will take that back to our team and ask them to look at potential access of those students on our campus, but I do not know what all of our researchers are involved in and and whether they are I am I would suspect that some of them are on federal grants. Uh the military and Department of Defense has very strict requirements as who can participate in their research. So, if they're not US citizens, they would not have access.
▶ 0:52:45Um there were also multiple cases of Chinese nationals connected to the university who were charged and arrested for attempting to smuggle biological materials into the United States last year. What is Michigan doing to vet foreign students? Specifically, what types of reviews are taking place on students from foreign countries who will have access to sensitive research?
▶ 0:53:06Uh so, Congresswoman, we have improved and we're continuing to improve our background checks for all of our researchers and students that come into the country, but we also have to partner more closely with our federal intelligence community to make sure that these students are vetted before they're allowed to to get with visas to enter our country as well. What percentage of students are foreign nationals at Michigan? We have about 8,000 foreign students or international students out of 75,000. Okay. Um I want to turn Ms.
▶ 0:53:36Johnson, your testimony is extremely concerning. Um thank you for being here and sharing your experience. You mentioned that some of the frustrations you had in Stanford's lack of action to combat the threat of Chinese espionage towards students. Can you characterize your personal interactions with the university? Were they cooperative or was the university reluctant to engage with Thank you. the university was very reluctant to engage with me.
▶ 0:54:04Um we published our first article, there was some outreach. Um you know, a little email saying they're taking our concerns seriously and they're looking into it. and we met with some administrators, and they, you know, sort of [clears throat] said there there's nothing they can really do about it. Um so, I have definitely sensed that. Did they refer it to law enforcement?
▶ 0:54:32No, I had to go to law enforcement myself. Mhm. Um you also Was there any retaliation or backlash from the university against you or Stanford Review, where I understand you're the Yeah, I think among the student body, we're not uh popular at times, and you know, this is definitely one of those cases.
▶ 0:54:59Um it wasn't it wasn't terrible. The on the transnational repression that I was facing, um campus was okay. The transnational repression though, that should not be happening to American undergraduates who are studying, learning their research, putting together their academic portfolio. Again, thanks for being here to and bravely sharing your story. Yield back. Thank you. I thank the gentlelady.
▶ 0:55:27I recognize gentleman from Connecticut, Mr. Courtney, for your 5 minutes of questioning. Thank you, Mr. Chairman. And again, if it hasn't already been stated again, just for the record, um you know, this committee last Congress held a hearing and markup on a number of bills regarding this issue. In this Congress, we've gone through the same drill already, a hearing and a I've actually voted with the majority in a couple of those measures.
▶ 0:55:53I would just note that they are far from through all the wickets in terms of getting through both the House and the Senate. In the meantime, you know, we have a hurricane out there right now with student loan borrowers, which we have not held any hearings to um conduct oversight, which is within the of this committee.
▶ 0:56:15In 2025, student loan um skyrocketed with nearly 25% of borrowers, roughly 7.9 million Americans in this country becoming delinquent in the first three quarters alone. By late 2025, over 5.5 million borrowers held 140 billion in defaulted federal loans with severe delinquency rates hitting 9.6% this year.
▶ 0:56:41Um again, this is all happening at a time when there's a cost of living and when this administration let the payments snap back um when they took over, again, it has just been pouring gasoline on the fire. At the same time, we have a situation over at the Department of Education as um our witness Ms.
▶ 0:57:03Emory Harris has testified where the whole structure of the Federal Student Loan Assistance Office is being gutted, and they're also because of the president's um executive order, there's been this sort of quasi transfer of authorities outside of the Department of Education.
▶ 0:57:23Again, the announcement that they're shifting jurisdiction and control of the portfolio, which is about $2 trillion out of DOE into the Treasury Department, I think really deserves our attention in terms of as a committee to to get to the to the root of this in terms of again, the trends that are happening in terms of defaults that are again, just really going to trap people in a debt trap, particularly young Americans who are starting out in life in
▶ 0:57:53terms of just you know, being in a place where they can buy a house or start a business or you know, again, pursue their dreams. Ms. Emory Harris, again, your report, which again, I think is was very relevant in terms of again, what's happening over the Department of Education. Can you talk about again, the the staffing issues at the Office of Federal Student Aid at a time when delinquencies are going through the Certainly. Thank you for that question.
▶ 0:58:23We found that between January and December of last year, FSA lost about half of its staff, specifically 46%. That constituted a drop of 656 staff members.
▶ 0:58:38You know, when our constituents, you know, are are again, falling into delinquency, the ability of even our members of Congress to be able to sort of try and provide assistance is really going to you know, be affected and limited by the fact that there's just not people there to answer the phone.
▶ 0:58:58In terms of the transition to Treasury Department again, can you talk about sort of what we know so far, whether they're just going to shift that office over to Treasury, or is Treasury going to set up its own We haven't looked into that issue, and the Department has not discussed it with again, [clears throat] it's um I think may in some sort of uh you know, conversations at at a bar, you know,
▶ 0:59:28people could say, "Oh, that sounds like something Treasury can handle as handling a portfolio." But the fact of the matter is it's like a big bank, you know, in terms of you know, a loan department that DOE has had for for many years. Um, and certainly um I think all of us can attest the fact that it can always be improved and um, you know, the the confusion that's out there for borrowers in terms of just what income repayment plans they can qualify for.
▶ 0:59:59Um, you know, when they need help, um, that's there, but the bottom line is somebody needs to be there to answer the phone, okay, in terms of helping in the in the predicament that they're in right now. That really should be the focus of this committee given the fact that we've been over this ground before in terms of the topic of today's hearing and I hope, Mr.
▶ 1:00:19Chairman, we are going to get real clear, professional testimony and documentation so that we can help the people we represent. Thank you. I yield back. I thank the gentleman. Now, back to the topic at hand. I recognize Ms. Miller for her 5 minutes of questioning. Thank you, Mr. Chairman.
▶ 1:00:41Our universities and colleges house vast centers of research and technology that contribute to our national security The very nature of these centers make them prime targets for espionage, theft, and exploitation. And yet these universities have repeatedly failed to properly vet foreign students and faculty who seek to gain access to these facilities.
▶ 1:01:07These institutions have also accepted monetary gifts from foreign countries without asking about the strings This committee took a big step forward last year to force donor transparency by advancing the DETERRENT Act, which later passed the House.
▶ 1:01:28the Trump administration has also taken action to ensure further compliance of section 117 of the Higher Education Act, but there is more work to be done. Because many universities fail to self-report, there must be stricter civil and criminal penalties for improper vetting of foreign students and The same is true for foreign gifts.
▶ 1:01:54In fact, universities should have to report all foreign gifts regardless of the amount or the nation it was received Safeguarding our national security involves holding these colleges and universities accountable. My first question is to Mr. Grasso. Last year, two Chinese nationals who worked in a lab at the University of Michigan were charged with smuggling a dangerous fungus into the United States.
▶ 1:02:21What steps have you taken to prevent foreign agents like these from infiltrating your college again? Thank you, uh, Congresswoman. Uh, we are uh, have been developing stronger background checks for all of our scholars and researchers. We require our mandatory training in terms of research security of all of our uh, researchers. Research security is fundamental to our mission.
▶ 1:02:50We take uh, these these breaches very very seriously. We have uh, improved uh, many of our research protocols. We have very strong protocols and we continue to improve them along with annual uh, training as I mentioned.
▶ 1:03:08also in in rely heavily on our um federal partners to help us identify individuals that are coming in that could pose threats to to our national security and when they issue visas. And we continue to uh, uh, look at export controls, foreign engagements. As I mentioned, we check all of our foreign engagements and we do all of our reporting according to section 117 of the Higher Education Act.
▶ 1:03:36Okay, well, we're going to hold you accountable for that. My next question is to Ms. Farley. In your written testimony, you mentioned several Florida laws designed to reduce undue foreign influence in colleges and universities. Could you talk about the effectiveness of these laws and how we might implement similar policies on a federal level? Thank you for that question, Representative.
▶ 1:04:01I would of course have to defer to policy makers to as to the best approach to regulating institutes of higher education, but at the University of Florida, we have a highly compliant program. We have fully committed to complying with all state and federal regulations related to research security. The statutes in question um require that the University of Florida screen all new research and research support positions prior to hire.
▶ 1:04:27Our institution also has implemented an international travel review program in which travelers must report their travel prior to traveling. It must be reviewed by my office and they must certify compliance with relevant policies and regulations. And in addition to that, there are several reporting requirements in which the university reports foreign gifts and contracts to the Florida Board of Governors on a regular basis to include on any agreements with countries of concern. So, what enforcement um policies are in place?
▶ 1:04:58Um, in in what sense? Well, if a college or university violates those.
▶ 1:05:04Oh, absolutely. So, the the Florida Board of Governors requires reporting of these agreements on a bi-annual basis and then there are consequences in place. I don't have the exact language of the statute in front of me. If there is a lack of reporting or transparency. So, the Board of Governors is highly involved in oversight and monitoring of compliance.
▶ 1:05:26Do you know of any situations where you've had to force some kind of compliance or fine a university or take some kind of punitive So, I can only speak for the University of Florida, but our program is highly compliant and we've had a variety of outcomes from the reviews that we do in compliance with the Florida Board of Governors regulation. Well, thank you. Florida's been such a light in the country. I appreciate what you've all done. My last question
▶ 1:05:54time has expired. Okay, thank you. If you wouldn't have exclaimed about Florida so strongly. Remember Michigan. Uh, okay. Uh, now I recognize the gentlelady from uh, Ms. Wilson for her 5 minutes of Thank you. Thank you, Chair Walberg and Ranking Member Scott.
▶ 1:06:22But I just have to ask, what problem are we actually trying to solve today? Why are we here? Where is the evidence that America's are under siege by foreign espionage at a scale that justifies this level of alarm?
▶ 1:06:48And while we're asking questions, why aren't we holding hearings on the real crisis facing students? This is the Education and we should be ashamed that we are not examining how by dismantling the Department of slashing oversight, and gutting federal student
▶ 1:07:18aid in the so-called big ugly bill, Republicans have made college less less accessible, and harder to finish, especially for low and middle-income Who is truly putting students at risk?
▶ 1:07:42This hypothetical foreign actor policies that gut federal student aid and undermine the Department of How does slashing support for Pell grants and loan programs strengthen higher education or our workforce?
▶ 1:08:03Instead of chasing xenophobic conspiracy theories that risk stigmatizing international students and distracting from real problems, this committee should be focused on holding the administration accountable for the chaos and confusion it is inflicting on borrowers and on
▶ 1:08:36and on advancing serious legislation that ensures every single student in this country who wants to can access and complete a quality With that, I have a few questions. Ms.
▶ 1:08:58Emery Ares, how have the changes to the federal student loan access and repayment in HR1, the so-called big ugly bill, affected the affordability of higher education for low- and middle-income students who depend on federal aid to enroll and stay in school? Thank you for the question.
▶ 1:09:27We have not studied that issue, but we would be happy to do so in the future. Okay. Well, last week the Department of Education announced that it will transfer the Office of Federal Student Aid to the Treasury Department. Do you know how this How will this shift of student loan management responsibilities affect students' day-to-day lives as borrowers?
▶ 1:09:56For example, the clarity of information they receive, the quality of of customer service, and the ease of navigating repayment and That is a good question. We have not studied that issue, and we do not know the answer. But you're here at this committee, and you don't know the answer to I can tell you about the work that we've
▶ 1:10:29The gentle lady yields. Thank the gentle lady. Now, I recognize the gentle lady from Michigan, Ms. Thank you, Mr. Chairman, and thank you to all the witnesses who are here today. I think the purpose of this hearing today is to make sure that if we are engaged with foreign countries, especially foreign adversaries, that we want to make sure that our country and our students are safe from espionage.
▶ 1:10:58We don't want our intellectual property to be stolen. Um and we want to safeguard the institutions in which the taxpayers spend a lot of money funding. So, I believe that's what the purpose of this hearing is for. So, let me um ask a general question. Is Maybe let's start with this.
▶ 1:11:21Why do you believe foreign relationships at the university level are important? Right? We have a lot of taxpayers paying money for taxes uh for their for their students to go uh to our universities. Why are the relationships with foreign countries, especially foreign adversaries, why are those relationships even needed? And And I'll ask both the university presidents.
▶ 1:11:51We'll start with you. Uh thank you, Congresswoman. Uh first, it's not about foreign talent in isolation. At the University of Michigan, we are one of the greatest universities in the world, and we want to attract the best talent uh from around the world to come and work with our researchers and study with our students to the benefit of humanity. And we uh we understand that the majority of the university is funded through pet Michigan taxpayer dollars.
▶ 1:12:20That's why if we invite students from other states or from other overseas, they pay a differential to compensate for the difference that taxpayers get a discount on. But we are not necessarily in uh existentially dependent on international talent, but it is to the university's benefit and to society's benefit to attract attract the best and the brightest to the university to develop the best technologies in the future for the Ms. Farley.
▶ 1:12:49Thank you for that question. At the University of Florida, in compliance with state statutes, we review all international agreements, regardless of funding source. At our institution, we're committed to finding the appropriate collaborators for our research, um but all agreements go under um a thorough review by the appropriate office. Um but as a matter of statute, we do not enter into any agreements with foreign countries of concern without the prior approval of the Board of
▶ 1:13:18Is it necessary to have foreign countries in these relationships, in these partnerships, knowing that there is a risk of espionage, of intellectual property being stolen? It Is it really Um thank you for that question. Uh in my role as the research security officer, um I am responsible for reviewing these agreements, ensuring the risk is um as minimal as possible, and when at all possible, ensuring that that risk doesn't exist.
▶ 1:13:48really comment on my question. Okay. All right. what I'm curious about is what happens, and can you walk us through to to give us a little peace of mind? What happens today if a researcher fails to disclose a foreign affiliation? We'll start with you, Ms. Farley. We'll go in reverse order. Thank you for that question, Representative.
▶ 1:14:12At the University of Florida, our policy on conflicts of interest and conflicts of commitment um prohibits participation and malign foreign talent recruitment programs. That's a um explicit prohibition, but um and all all employees are required to disclose outside activities.
▶ 1:14:31if they don't? What happens?
▶ 1:14:32if they violate our policy, um our institution um follows our policy to do a thorough review to determine if there was a violation of our policy, and then there is a process in place to conduct that review.
▶ 1:14:46a zero-tolerance policy? If there's a violation of our policy, then we would find we would follow the um laid out disciplinary actions within within that policy. Yes. And what would that disciplinary action be? Depending on the scope of the um the Depending on the scope of their non-compliance, um disciplinary action can be anything from um counseling to to up to termination. Counseling. Okay. Mr. Grasso.
▶ 1:15:16Uh thank you, Congresswoman. I think our program would be similar. We would do an investigation if there was an oversight in in disclosure of a conflict of interest, and the the penalties would be commensurate with the oversight. If it was a simple oversight of uh perhaps an honorary title at a university that was not listed on someone's uh disclosure we would have a conversation with the individual.
▶ 1:15:41If there is a compensation associated with it, it could be up to termination, which we did do in a particular instance that we found. Thank you very much. My time is up. Thank you, Mr. Chairman. I thank the gentle lady. Now, I recognize the gentle lady from Michigan, uh Ms. Stevens. Thank you, Mr. Chairman, and thank you to all of our of our witnesses here today, and great to see you, President Grasso. Go Blue. we know we're all in uh challenging times for higher education.
▶ 1:16:10Um as many of my colleagues have pointed out, faculty, administrators, researchers, and most importantly, students have been caught up in the current administration's reckless dismantling of federal agencies, as well as cuts to uh research funding that have changed the landscape of uh university and academic life dramatically.
▶ 1:16:36I also have the privilege of sitting on the House Science, Space, and Technology Committee, and the Select Committee on strategic competition between the United States and the Chinese Communist Party. And so, this uh hearing today as is cutting across a lot of uh the policy work that I have engaged in in in Congress, and that the committees of uh jurisdiction that I also sit on have have tackled.
▶ 1:17:04We know that the research ecosystem across our universities is uh one of the crown jewels of this country, and that American national security, economic innovation, critical health breakthroughs, and so much more often starts at the university research level or technology readiness uh one or zero through five.
▶ 1:17:29So, the the research is going to be a target, and we know that for our adversaries and our Uh however, the response is not to close off, you know, our universities uh to to the world. We know that. We don't want to be launching uh xenophobic attacks uh against particular student communities or cut off critical federal research funding.
▶ 1:17:54Uh and instead, we should adopt common-sense protections like the ones codified in my United States Research Protection Act that passed the House on voice vote last year. And we want to give our universities the tools to protect themselves and secure important research without jeopardizing the funding and collaborations they need to remain on the cutting edge.
▶ 1:18:20And most importantly, we do want to uh protect academic integrity and research uh from foreign influence, which is somewhat in the camp of espionage, but we don't want to have the influence.
▶ 1:18:36And so, you know, when we see the current administration firing workers and shuttering directorates at the NSF, the National Science Foundation, um many of those fired were experienced professionals in managing federal research funding uh securely, and they were attuned to the risks posed by malign uh malign foreign actors.
▶ 1:18:58And so, it's safe to say that eliminating that institutional knowledge made it more difficult for universities to maintain their security of the research operations. And to that end, Mr. um Grasso, what more can we do at the federal level to help the University of uh secure the critical research happening on your campus? Thank you, uh Congresswoman.
▶ 1:19:24We would We appreciate our partnership with federal agencies, both our funding agencies and our security and law enforcement agencies. And we appreciate any information that can be shared with regard to interactions with foreign entities that would help us better protect our policies. Yeah, and do you have any research highlights that are going on at the University of Michigan right now to make sure that our state is on the cutting edge of new innovations.
▶ 1:19:54Anything you'd like to share right now? Oh, we have a lot of research highlights. As a matter of fact, just the first awards by Sony and Nature magazine for the top women in technology and science were awarded. They awarded three of them. Two were Michigan scholars and they happened to also be of Chinese origin. So, that was terrific.
▶ 1:20:21And one of those was for work that was done in the development of a technology called histotripsy, which is a a treatment of liver cancer for and it does surgery without heat or scalpels. So, it uses ultrasound and it was just sold for almost $3 billion. So, that's one of the terrific things that we're doing on campus.
▶ 1:20:43Well, holy smokes because we know we want these innovations in this country here and our country particularly as we face enormous challenges with our debt proposition. And it's only when we innovate and grow our economy that we will be able to pay off our debt. So, thank you so much for being here and sharing. And with that, Mr. Chair, I yield back. I thank the gentlelady. I recognize the gentleman from Florida, Mr. Allen.
▶ 1:21:12Excuse me, from Georgia. It's down south down south there somewhere, right?
▶ 1:21:16Yeah, it's close to Florida, yeah. Right next we we neighbor Florida. I'll get wrapped up in this.
▶ 1:21:21We're we're proud to neighbor Florida. Thank you. Uh but and thank you, Chairman, for holding this important hearing today. And I want to thank the witnesses for your attendance and expertise and helping us understand what's going on in American universities and as far as the engine of engine of innovation, collaboration, but those strengths obviously are being exploited by foreign adversaries who work to undermine our institutions and democratic
▶ 1:21:51values. You know, we are the innovation giant in the world. The problem is that you know, much of that innovation is being intellectual capital is being stolen and used against us, particularly from an economic standpoint. President Grasso, according to the University of Michigan's export control training, only one module named export control is labeled required.
▶ 1:22:20Nine other modules are deemed optional, including export compliance and export compliance for international shipping and export compliance in the United States sanctions program. Do you believe having those trainings only be optional for university faculty and staff is taking a strong and proactive approach towards research Uh Congresswoman, thank you very much for the question.
▶ 1:22:46Research security is our uh fundamental basis for doing our research. And I will actually take your comment back to our team in Ann Arbor and I will look at those other modules that are labeled as optional. And we will look to see if we can make those required as appropriate. Thank you. Uh Ms.
▶ 1:23:07Farley, you noted concerns about undisclosed participation in foreign talent programs, particularly those linked to the People's Republic of China which includes taxpayer funded research dollars. How does the University of Florida's screening process identify mitigate risk associated with undisclosed foreign affiliations? Thank you for that question, Representative.
▶ 1:23:31At the University of Florida, we require all new research and research support positions to go through a screening process. That screening process looks for a variety of indicators, some of which are can be indicators of malign foreign government talent recruitment programs. So, our office looks at things such as employment history, foreign affiliations, publication history, as well as education and training. And we also consider the nature of the research and the scope of the research for the researcher we are looking at.
▶ 1:24:01Okay, good. And you think that's working to satisfactorily protect the secure what you're doing there at the great University of Florida? At UF, we believe our program is in compliance with the statutes and that it is effectively implemented, yes. Right, thank you. Ms. Johnson, you mentioned student groups such as the Chinese Students and that are utilized as arms of the Chinese government. Can you talk about what type of events these organizations hold and how they influence other international students on campus?
▶ 1:24:33Yeah, so Stanford has an association association of Chinese Students and Scholars. Uh it receives, I think last year it received $64,000 from Stanford as club funding. And they host a lot of networking events across the Bay Area. And their big event every year is their uh Lunar New Year party.
▶ 1:24:57Um and the Association of Chinese Students and Scholars has been used to um used for peer monitoring and reporting back to the Chinese Communist Party, which I think creates an unsafe environment for a lot of Chinese students. What about the influence they're having on other international students?
▶ 1:25:17And are they trying to recruit other international students into this effort has that has that influence caused a I'm not sure if they're trying to recruit other international students.
▶ 1:25:35However, I have heard stories from um people in our business school who are also in the US military who have attended events hosted by Chinese clubs where they've been invited to, you know, go to China for free, have been approached about what they're doing with the US military.
▶ 1:25:58Um so, definitely is affecting uh US American students as well as Taiwanese students because often times there will be a stance against
▶ 1:26:08So, this would be an espionage effort by that group. Okay. All right, well, thank you very much. I am out of time. Mr. Chairman, I yield back. I thank the gentleman and I do apologize. How could I think of moving you out of the home of the Masters coming up in a couple weeks? Maybe it's jealousy. Yes, well, yes, it's 2 weeks away and we're looking forward to it and it's 80° in Augusta, Georgia today. Thank you. You said too much right now. So, I thank the gentleman.
▶ 1:26:36Now, I recognize the gentleman gentlelady from Oregon, Ms. Bonamici. Uh thank you very much, Mr. Chairman, and thank you again to the witnesses. I appreciate my colleagues' dedication to this issue and I I just wish that they brought the same level of commitment to addressing problems in our higher education system like the cost of college and meeting the basic needs of students. Recently, the GAO published a report about the Department of Education's Office for Civil Rights.
▶ 1:27:04That's the office that's charged with enforcing civil rights laws that protect more than 70 million students in schools and universities nationwide. Unfortunately, the Trump administration has slashed this office, laid off about half the staff, closed seven of the 12 regional offices, and then several months later uh OCR then recalled about 250 of the laid off staff to address the backlog of civil rights complaints.
▶ 1:27:31Reports in January show that OCR failed to meaningfully resolve a single racial harassment or discrimination investigation since Donald Trump took office in January of 2025. Then more than a month ago, 70 of my Democratic colleagues joined me in sending a letter to Secretary McMahon and Assistant Secretary Richie. We need answers.
▶ 1:27:50We asked about the current number of pending cases and open investigations, how many full-time workers OCR employs, how many remain on paid administrative leave, and whether OCR has resolved any cases related to racial harassment or discrimination of students. We requested answers within 30 days. We have heard nothing. It's been 50 days, no response. Ms. Emery GAO released a report in January investigating the reduction in force and restructuring at OCR.
▶ 1:28:19What effect did the RIFs have on the caseload of the employees who remained at OCR? And what were the circumstances that led to the department recognizing that they needed to reinstate some of those employees? So, as you noted, the the department cut about half of the OCR staff during this time dating back to March. And during this period from March through September, they had more than 9,000 complaints of alleged discrimination.
▶ 1:28:49They opened more than 600 investigations. They reported resolving about 7,000 complaints. And they noted that about 90% of the resolutions were through So, they just dismissed the cases rather than resolve them. So, what you're saying? Um there can be many reasons for dismissals and the department has not disclosed what those reasons are.
▶ 1:29:12And what was the cost to American taxpayers of placing OCR employees on paid administrative leave as part of the riff, and then what was the cost of recalling them later in the year to address the backlog of civil rights complaints? That's an excellent question, and we don't know the answer because the department didn't do what it was supposed to do. The department was supposed to calculate those costs before initiating the riffs. It did not.
▶ 1:29:38However, we do know based on estimates that they had for just simply the benefits and the salaries that between 28.5 and 38 million dollars was spent from March to December paying people not to Yeah, that that is not government efficiency when we pay people not to And and I I just want to note Mr. Chairman and colleagues that uh you know I Ms. Johnson, I'm sorry.
▶ 1:30:05I missed your testimony that you gave earlier, but I I read through your testimony, and you certainly don't don't agree with what happened to you, but I had talked to people all the time about higher education, and what I'm hearing is I don't know if I can afford to go to college. I don't know what's going to happen with my student loans. I have so much student loan debt. I don't know what to do with all the changes in the program. It's confusing. We don't know what's going to happen. Now they're trying to send the student loan collection to Treasury without the appropriate staff or expertise.
▶ 1:30:35That's what people are talking to me about. Uh we have we passed legislation. We've had hearings multiple hearings on the threat to research security both here and in the science committee. And from the testimony from the institutions as I said earlier, they are addressing those threats. What we really need to deal with is the attack on higher education, and we're not doing that in this committee, and Mr.
▶ 1:30:57Chairman, I hope we can do that because higher education is a path to opportunity, and we need to open those doors of opportunity, not close them. I have said that HR1, the big ugly bill I call it, is a dream killer because there are a lot of people now who just feel like they won't be able to afford to go to college unless they're from a wealthy family. That's taking up opportunity away from people, which is exactly the opposite of what President Johnson when he signed the Higher Education Act said this is to open the doors of opportunity.
▶ 1:31:26That's what this committee should be doing, opening doors of opportunity for students across the country, and making sure that if people have student loan debt, they have a manageable way to pay it back instead of thrusting them into the chaos that is about to erupt at the Treasury. And I yield back, Mr. I thank the gentlewoman, and I would note that we concur with your desire to encourage higher education. May we see see different approaches, but we certainly want to encourage higher education.
▶ 1:31:57Let's move now to the gentleman from Indiana, Mr. Mestemacher, for your 5 minutes of questioning. Uh thank you, Mr. Chairman, and thank you for the witnesses for being here today. Uh President Grasso, when you when universities are faced with potential criminal activity by foreign nationals, cooperation with law enforcement cannot be optional or delayed. Timely action is essential to to ensure those that break the laws are held accountable without exception.
▶ 1:32:21Yet at the University of Michigan, we have seen a case of at least two foreign nationals on student visas who were able to flee the United States and remain fugitives. This cannot happen again, and I hope you agree. I had a provision included in the House passed the DETER Act last March that would strengthen coordination between universities and federal agencies to assure compliance, streamline reporting, and close gaps that let bad actors slip through the hands of law enforcement.
▶ 1:32:47Uh what concrete steps will the University of Michigan take to work directly with federal agencies to improve reporting and prevent future cases from falling through the cracks? Uh thank you, Congressman. When we get a report from federal agency of transgression in our laws, we take immediate action, and as I mentioned, we've had several instances where federal agents identified students that were doing illicit things.
▶ 1:33:13We revoked their visas right away, and and then they were uh they were I I either arrested or some of them left the country. But we take immediate action when we are faced with illicit action that's reported to us by the federal federal authorities. All right, thank Uh Ms. Johnson, do you feel like Stanford has support systems in place for students like yourself who are experiencing transnational repression?
▶ 1:33:45Uh no, I don't think Stanford has the proper infrastructure in place. I they have been sort of helpful with you know, our program for international students, but not on the transnational repression front.
▶ 1:34:01Uh what what steps can they what practical steps can they take to help I think they should try to set up an anonymous tip line for people to report uh and I think they should uh set up even a small office for um students to talk to administrators about this issue. Thank you. Ms.
▶ 1:34:26Farley, you described the University of Florida as a model for centralized institu- institution-wide research security and oversight. What is there to having a centralized compliance functions uh compared to decentralized approaches that other universities might be using? Thank you for that question, Representative. As I'm sure you can imagine, the University of Florida is a large place with many colleges and centers and institutes.
▶ 1:34:51So by centralizing our research security program, we were able to ensure that we could implement an effective and efficient program with minimal numbers of points of contact to make it easier for researchers, faculties, and students to know who their central point of contact is. We've also been able to ensure by centralizing these programs that there is direct oversight from senior leadership and members of the University of Florida Okay. Thank you. That's all the questions I have. I yield back my time. I thank the gentleman.
▶ 1:35:20I recognize the gentlewoman from Pennsylvania, Ms. Lee. Thank you, Mr. Chairman. It feels like this hearing is yet of the Republicans' latest attempts to to vilify the global community and undermine higher education. Universities already put significant resources and efforts into making sure their hiring, enrollment, and research processes are safe.
▶ 1:35:44Um But conservatives would have us believe that espionage is one of the largest issues facing higher education, and that we should treat every international student or faculty faculty as a foreign spy. The research universities in my district like the University of Pittsburgh, Carnegie Carnegie Mellon University are great because, not despite of uh the international community. Dr.
▶ 1:36:11Grasso, in your testimony, you mentioned that your university's achievements are made possible by the ability to attract the best and brightest from every corner of the United States and the world. How does your university benefit from enrolling international students and hiring international faculty? Uh thank you, Congresswoman. That is a great question.
▶ 1:36:30We attract the best and the brightest from around the world, and they come and they enrich our our campuses because they not only bring their their intellectual power, but they bring different perspectives from around the world and how different cultures and communities look at different problems. And that helps our our students learn from them as they sit side by side in classrooms, and it helps our researchers attack very difficult problems from different perspectives.
▶ 1:36:56So we have benefited greatly from an international community of the best and the brightest. And Time magazine ranked the University of Michigan the ninth best university in the world. There were only four other American universities ahead of us. They were privates. We were the first public, but we were ranked the ninth best, and it's in part because we can attract the best and the brightest. Thank you. So it sounds like diversity, equity, and inclusion do make universities great.
▶ 1:37:27I do and I and I and I and I and I try to be sensitive because I recognize that a lot of our university presidents who have come before our committee, they have um brought some concerns about speaking out in front of or around this administration in front of Republicans. We know that Trump has made it clear uh that he intends to use the full force of the federal government, including this committee, to go after some of our presidents and our institutions.
▶ 1:37:52This administration threatens the existence of our higher education institutions, and perhaps I know you all can't always say it, so I will say it for you, but I am grateful that you have come to share this perspective. That is a really important one. If Republicans want to protect research, they can stop cutting research funding. They can make sure that the NIH and the NSF are fully staffed with scientific experts experts who make decisions based on research integrity instead of fascist ideology and conspiracy theories.
▶ 1:38:21Visa delays, travel restrictions, increased security or surveillance, kidnappings from ICE, heightened un- uncertainty, and the chilling effect caused by hearings just like this one are what actually make it impossible for schools to fulfill their educational and research missions. Every bit of innovation that contributes to our position in the world has come from innovation through global collaboration.
▶ 1:38:44Congressman mentioned it, but it bears repeating that our ability to attract the best and the brightest from all corners of this country and the world is what is comprises America's soft power. It's not just what makes us globally competitive, it's what makes us globally safe. We should be proud of the fact that people all over the world want to come here, that we have built a a society that people want to contribute If they no longer feel welcome here, they will take their talents elsewhere.
▶ 1:39:15They'll use their skills to build up the world around us, and we will be left behind. We have an administration that does not value soft power. There does not feel there is a benefit to diplomacy, that doesn't value our country's image as helpers or aspiring peacekeepers in the world. This administration is hell-bent on making America look like a hellscape. This is the trajectory we are on.
▶ 1:39:41And to add insult to injury, when xenophobic rhetoric about foreign espionage causes students to be profiled and discriminated against, what recourse do they have? Because in January, we learned that the Department of Education's Office for Civil Rights has been dismissing 90% of discrimination complaints, and this was while half of the OCR staff were placed on administrative leave thanks to DOE. Very quickly, Ms.
▶ 1:40:01Harris, can you remind this committee what the Department of Education spent on civil rights staff who were not allowed to work from March to December We know it was at least 28.5 to 35 million dollars. So, instead of paying civil rights workers to do their job and process and process discrimination cases, the Department of Ed spent millions of taxpayer dollars to strip students of civil rights protections. We know that world-class universities are in global collaborations are essential to democracy, which of course what this administration is attacking in the first place.
▶ 1:40:29But, we cannot allow for xenophobic rhetoric can get lost in it. Those of us who are still interested in democracy will continue to fight for international students for their contributions to our country, and we'll continue to fight against the kind of for the kind of global democracy and diplomacy that so many of our greatest achievements were built on. I thank you all so much for your time, and
▶ 1:40:47Gentle lady's time has expired, and I recognize the gentleman from Florida, Mr. Fine. Well, thank you, Mr. Chairman. So, I live in the real world, not the world of sunshine, rainbows, pixie dust, and unicorns that we just heard about. So, I'd like to give you some examples before I get to my question to Ms. Farley. In 2021, this isn't fictional, a the federal grand jury indicted Lin Yang for defrauding the NIH of 1.75 million dollars. He concealed his ties to a Chinese company while he was working with the University of Florida.
▶ 1:41:17He fled to China. Between 2019 and 2021, multiple UF researchers resigned or were terminated after internal audits revealed undisclosed connections to Chinese institutions or talent programs. In 2024, a UF research lab employee and several students were implicated in multi-year plot related to biochemical and toxin shippings.
▶ 1:41:40At UCF, four professors between 2019 and 2020 had ties to China, had to be resigned or fired amid concerns of undisclosed relationships. At the University of South Florida in 2015, Da Jing Peng ran UCF's Confucius Institute, had to be had expense fraud, visa issues that had to be dealt with, and I could go on and on and on. These are issues in my state that actually take these issues seriously.
▶ 1:42:08Again, as opposed to the sunshine, rainbow, pixie dust perspective that we just heard. That's why in 2021, the Florida legislature passed HB to deal with these issues, and in 2023, SB 846. And I was proud to help spearhead both of those when I was in the legislature helping to run education policy. So, Ms. Farley, my question to you is this, do you believe that the issue we're dealing with, we're talking about here, is a real issue?
▶ 1:42:36And have policies like the ones we put in place in Florida helped you to be able to make sure that we are protecting our research institutions to advance the interests of the American people? Thank you for that question, Representative. At the University of Florida, we are fully committed to complying with all policies and regulations related to this important issue.
▶ 1:42:58And as you've stated, we had some examples of significant breaches of trust at the university, and we were committed to cooperating fully, and those employees are no longer at the institution. We have implemented
▶ 1:43:11things actually happened. Yes. These issues are they're real. We're not like making it up. Yes. And by the way, all the examples I gave were basically China, but but these are these are happening. Like, we need someone to have the job that you have. Now, obviously, you're going to say yes, but because you want your job, but we we need we have an issue, and we need someone like you to deal with it.
▶ 1:43:31The institution takes this issue very seriously, and we at the time that the laws were passed, implemented a task force of senior leaders across the institution. We took it very seriously. The leaders across the institution designed the research security program, which has since grown and evolved to implement the new requirements as well that were passed in 2023.
▶ 1:43:53We centralized the program so that there's leadership oversight of these programs, and we've done significant outreach and training across campus to help our campus partners, our researchers, our faculty understand the importance of these issues and the importance of complying with federal and state regulations. So, let's hypothetically assume that we lived in the world of rainbows, pixie dust, unicorns that we that we heard about, where everything's fine, and we're all working together, and we don't need to take any of this stuff seriously. We hadn't passed these laws like we passed in Florida, and we had the kinds of issues.
▶ 1:44:23What are What do you think would be going on in our institutions if we weren't worried about it, if we weren't passing laws like we passed in Florida? Do you believe that our Florida universities would be at risk, or everything would just be fine? I would hesitate to speculate on a hypothetical, but what I will say is that the concerns are concerns we've seen at the federal level as well as the state level.
▶ 1:44:48And the university has been committed for many, many years to constantly improving our compliance posture and and growing our research security program to protect those and be a good steward of federal research dollars. My last question is this, do you believe that there are foreign actors that wish to exploit our universities with and and the funding that we provide to them for the benefit of their countries as opposed to the United States?
▶ 1:45:15I am far from an expert on intelligence, but I can say that based on interactions I've had with my colleagues and professional organizations, we've heard many we've been given a lot of information at universities regarding the potential threats of undue foreign influence and the best ways to protect the research enterprise, and the institu and the University of Florida is absolutely committed to protecting the research enterprise.
▶ 1:45:41And I appreciate the work that you do. These issues are real. We need to accept that they're real. How we deal with them, we can disagree with, but the fact of the matter is we do have the best research universities in the world, and if we don't take these threats seriously, we won't end up having the best research universities in the world. I'm grateful for Florida leading the way as we usually do. Hopefully, the other 49 states can follow, and we can follow
▶ 1:46:02Gentleman's time has expired. I recognize the gentleman from California with great knowledge about Stanford, Mr. Thank you, Mr. Walberg.
▶ 1:46:14Although I used to be a resident and had a restaurant in Palo Alto, I'm now representing a district and have lived it for a long time in the East Bay, and spend a lot of time with the number one public rated consistently public university in the United States, the University of California, and have many of their employees and alumni in my district. And I also have three national labs in the area.
▶ 1:46:39So, this is in terms of what really happened, and I'm reminded after listening comments just made that George Santayana's quote about for those who forget history, they're condemned to repeat it. And I'm reminded in my area, I have a friend a multiple friends who were interned um during the Japanese internment.
▶ 1:47:03Um one in particular who's in his 90s now and tells stories as a kid coming back and asking, "Where's Dad?" And Dad had died at TB. I'm also reminded as a Californian of the Chinese inclusionary exclusionary act. So, um we need to remember history, Mr. Chairman.
▶ 1:47:20And while I absolutely agree and have had conversations within the last 2 months at the National Laboratory of Berkeley about a lot of work they're doing on AI, remarkable work, um but it's also reflected of the diversity in that institution and welcoming great minds irrespective of where they came from and their country of origin or are. So, it's interesting just hearing this that and I know, Mr.
▶ 1:47:46Chairman, you feel the same way that we want diversity, but we also want to protect these wonderful institutions that I work with, and um having many friends at Stanford, and I'm sorry you had the experience, and I'd love to know more because they should have been more responsive cuz it's not about ideology, it's about protecting these resources, and part of that protection is welcoming diversity. So, um Ms. Emery Harris, I have first question is along these lines.
▶ 1:48:17as the GAO has reported in on a number of things, access to federal student aid, very important that you've done work on that reflects diversity and opportunity and merit. Uh but let me start with the closing of seven of 12 offices of Office of Civil Rights by the administration, and the effect that might have on continuing to have people get into our universities, um who are the best and the brightest irrespective of their their
▶ 1:48:48um country of origin. We know from our work that they closed seven offices um for the uh the offices of Civil Rights regional offices. Those were Boston, New York, Philadelphia, Cleveland, Chicago, Dallas, and San Francisco. Right. San Francisco is ours. We also know that they paid people not to work.
▶ 1:49:12They did that for many months and those people were not able to process discrimination complaints during that time because they were prohibited from doing so. And that cost according to your report was $38 million of lost revenue to where people weren't allowed to work and 90% of the complaints on civil rights were were not addressed. That's true and I just want to clarify I misspoke a moment ago when I said it was up to 35 million. It was higher. You were correct.
▶ 1:49:41It was up to 38 million. I always love to correct somebody from OGR. It's a rare occasion. Uh let's talk about the office of federal student aid. getting young students who don't have financial capacity to be able to get into these universities, federal funding by this administration was cut by almost 50% and you've done work on that as well.
▶ 1:50:05So could you speak to that in the ability to get talented people to be able to get into higher education again irrespective of their background. Right. So the Office of Federal Student Aid as its name says manages everything with student aid. They manage federal grants, loans, work-study funds to support students attending over 5,000 colleges.
▶ 1:50:30And we know that between January and December of last year they cut almost half of that of their staff, 46%. So Mr. Chairman, I I just like to conclude and I don't want to be responsive to the previous question. Um being diligent about making sure we protect our institutions I completely agree with and I've had conversations with people at the national labs and at our universities including Stanford about how we do that.
▶ 1:51:01But we have to be really mindful and I know you are Mr. Chairman about um prejudice and racism and how it affects real people and how it affects these institutions in a negative way. So I'll be happy to work with you to make sure that we do both of those things.
▶ 1:51:16Protect um espionage or foreign influence from people who are are at maybe well our adversaries but also not do it in a way people who we remember our history that unfortunately in our country we have loyal Americans based on their ethnicity. [clears throat] Thank you Mr. Chairman. I yield back. Thank you. Gentleman's time is expired. I appreciate your concern.
▶ 1:51:43Let me now recognize the gentleman from Utah, the vice chairman of this Mr. Owens. Thank you Mr. Chairman. It's no secret Chinese government is a real important rival to the United States. They're exploiting openness of our higher education system by manipulating their citizens, influencing our institutions and stealing taxpayer funded research that often has national security implications.
▶ 1:52:08In many cases institutions and researchers may unknowingly and unwillingly help the CCP by not properly vetting foreign faculty and students that have ties to to the Chinese government and military. However, there are some cases where colleges and researchers are willingly willing to accept the foreign influence and risk national security as as a price of doing business with the CCP.
▶ 1:52:31They do so in order to advance their research, their careers or simply out of For those who prioritize wealth, power and fame by prioritizing our adversary, the Communist Chinese Party over the health and welfare of our nation, there's one word for that. It's called They will eventually be discarded by the communist regime once they're no longer of value to them, but it's imperative that those of us who love our country and love the freedom that for our kids and our future that we never forget who these traitors are.
▶ 1:53:00They need to be held legally accountable for the threat they pose to our nation, but they also need to ensure that they'll never forgotten to history as their names are read by our children alongside other traitors like Benedict Benedict Arnold and the 1950s Rosenbergs. It's time to make the word traitor fearful again. Dr. Grasso, I first I want to thank you for your for your military service and leadership.
▶ 1:53:25I think for this the small period of time that the University of Michigan has you for them it it should be a very good way of bringing us back to old school American loyalty and I'm excited to see what you can do in the time you're there. July 2025 the Department of Education opened a Section 117 compliance investigation into the University of Michigan. That investigation found that just in the last 5 years $86 million dollars of the university's foreign gifts and contracts reports were submitted late.
▶ 1:53:54This totals equals 20% of the university's gifts and contracts over that lifetime. Many reports are also mislabeled. Section 117 has been in law for over 30 years. Can you explain how such a high amount of foreign funds were not reported correctly? Thank you Congressman.
▶ 1:54:11We are also concerned that we were not reporting our funding as as required and as as appropriate and we've improved our procedures and protocols and now we're catching things that were we were not reporting and I think we're we're getting very close to being caught up. At the same time the Department of Education was changing their protocols as well. So we were trying to keep up with what they were doing and we've improved our protocols so we're we're caught up.
▶ 1:54:36I do want to point out though I know that there's a lot of concern about China but in terms of our foreign funding China falls into sixth place at our university in terms of funding anything on our campus. So we have countries ahead of China are Switzerland, Japan, the UK, Germany and Saudi Arabia. So those countries fall in front of China. We only have 86 million dollars that we reported through Section 117 of close to a billion dollars. Okay. Thank you. Thank you so much. Ms.
▶ 1:55:06Farley, you emphasize a top-down approach to research security involving deans and department chairs. How critical is leadership engagement in in establishing a campus a campus culture of research security compliance? We have found it to be very critical to the success of our program at the University of Florida.
▶ 1:55:26At each point that we have implemented a new aspect of the research security program my office in partnership with other offices engaged with deans, chairs and other leaders across campus to explain the program, its requirements and the importance of complying with state and federal regulations. We have found that this has helped um make sure that employees, faculty and staff across the institution understand those rules and have the information they need to thoroughly comply. Thank Ms.
▶ 1:55:56Johnson, Stanford has an Office of the Vice Provost
▶ 1:56:00for institutional equity, access and community. The website's office official website says committed to ensuring the Stanford community members safely thrive in an environment free of violence and harassment. Did this DEI office help in in your process of going as you were getting harassed and intimidated by foreign nationals? No, they didn't help me. Did you hear from this DEI office at all during this period of time? No. Okay.
▶ 1:56:31I just want to I want to say this uh First of all, we're so proud to to hear from young people like yourself. I want to say I'm sure your parents are very proud to see what you're standing for and this is what old school American loyalty and courage looks like. So it gives us a lot of excitement about seeing the the future of our country when we see young people like yourself standing where you are. So thank you so much for that and I yield back. I thank the gentleman. I recognize the gentlelady from Arizona, Ms. Grijalva. Thank you Mr. Chairman and thank you for all of you for being here.
▶ 1:57:01While the majority focus is today on hearing on foreign and today's hearing on foreign influence, the most immediate threat to the students and families that I represent in Arizona's 7th Congressional District is Trump's administration's systemic dismantling of the Department of Education. Through the big horrible bill and reckless reductions in force this administration has made pursuing higher education less affordable, less accessible and far more chaotic for millions of Americans.
▶ 1:57:28We should also be we should be focused on ensuring everyone can access a quality degree rather than chasing overblown concerns and conspiracy theories that often fuel xenophobic rhetoric on our campuses and target international students and students of color.
▶ 1:57:45So as of December 2025 there are 7.7 million borrowers with defaulted federal As this administration continues to make life harder for low and middle income families it is critical to provide high quality, robust support for defaulted borrowers.
▶ 1:58:02So I was extremely upset to see that the Department's recent announcement to move the servicing of defaulted loans to the Treasury Department as a first step to dismantle the Office of Federal Student Aid which I know will have an effect on many of my constituents in Arizona's 7th Congressional District. Ms. Emery Ers, are you able to speak to any insight you have on how the Department typically supports defaulted borrowers?
▶ 1:58:28I can say that typically what happens is a borrower is put into default when they have not made a payment in more than 270 days. And the risks at that point are significant. They lose access to additional federal student aid. They can be reported to credit agencies which can affect their ability to get a job, get an apartment, get a car and also they are subject to collections. This is a very serious step. Their wages can be garnished, their tax refunds can be offset.
▶ 1:58:57There are procedures that they can take to rehabilitate their loans and come out of default, but they do need guidance on how to do that. Yeah. Um, when working on your recent report regarding FSA, was GAO made aware that the department was planning to transfer full responsibility of the default portfolio and other student aid programs to the Treasury Uh, I'm deeply concerned about further dismantling of the department through this reckless move.
▶ 1:59:28Mr. Chairman, I would also like to enter into the record an article titled Treasury Department struggles to collect defaulted student Without objection, it'll be entered. Thank you. Uh, since early 2025, the Trump administration has been laser-focused on dismantling the Department of Education one program at a time. Despite the department's continued claims that no employees working on core functions of the FAFSA or student loan servicing were impacted by the RIF.
▶ 1:59:58And that the RIFs will not directly impact students and families. GAO found that there has in fact been significant changes to the FSA staffing. Um, Ms. Emery Arus, how have the staffing levels changed at FSA since the start of 2025? They dropped by 656 employees. And do you have any idea um, what that percentage is? Almost half, 46%. That's pretty significant.
▶ 2:00:29And so, the claims that um, student loan servicing were not impacted by the RIF is clearly um, inaccurate. I appreciate your time and your answers. I yield back. I thank the gentlewoman. And I recognize the gentleman from North Carolina, Mr. Thank you, Mr. Chairman. And I thank you to all of you on the panel here today. And uh, I've enjoyed reading your testimonies as well as hearing you this this morning.
▶ 2:00:57Uh, President Grasso, this committee found that nearly two dozen universities across the country had specialized joint research partnerships with China involving sensitive military technology. Now, I'm concerned by the lack of caution our schools have when partnering with our greatest foreign adversaries such as the Chinese Communist Party.
▶ 2:01:19I guess my question for you is what harm does the take money first, ask questions later approach have for our students and our national security, in your opinion? Uh, Congressman, I agree with you uh, on concerns about sensitive military data. We do not have any policy that resembles take money first and ask questions later. We are very committed to our national security.
▶ 2:01:47And I, as a former military officer, am uh, very concerned if there is any uh, risk to sharing sensitive military data. And I and I can assure you we are committed to protecting our research from our adversa- adversaries. Uh, just as a follow-up to that, um, cuz we we can't, as you know, accept conflicts of interest when it comes to defense research.
▶ 2:02:14So, what actions would you take if you learned that a Chinese national working at the University of Michigan as a J-1 visa researcher was in fact simultaneously working at a PRC university or company that engaged in defense work related to China? Uh, uh, Congressman, I I uh, hesitate to uh, to engage in speculation.
▶ 2:02:40However, uh, if we had an individual that was working for an institution in China and did not disclose it, we would uh, terminate that individual for uh, deliberately uh, violating our policies uh, of disclosure. So, that's what we would do. Okay. Well, thank you, sir.
▶ 2:02:59As you noted in your testimony right before your tenure, the University of Michigan did terminate a partnership with a Chinese university that helped improve China's development of nuclear weapons. I think that was a great move. And I certainly hope that that sort of common sense will continue to prevail. Uh, I had the privilege of introducing the No Contracts with Foreign Adversaries Act, which passed the House as part of the Deterrent Act.
▶ 2:03:25And this bill would begin to tackle this problem at the collegiate level by requiring institutions to disclose contracts with China, North Korea, Russia, and Iran rather than enter into these partnerships unscrutinized. So, um, I appreciate your answers. Ms.
▶ 2:03:42Farley, real quickly, your testimony mentioned President Trump's 2021 National Security Presidential Memorandum 33 and Florida's simultaneous efforts to crack down on foreign influence in these public universities. Can you tell us a little bit about how did the University of Florida implement the president's memo more specifically? And how has that implementation, you believe, improved research security? Yes, absolutely.
▶ 2:04:12So, NSPM 33, when it was passed, um, was the first of many steps that we saw among um, our federal partners to regulate and the research security space. The Office of Science, Technology, and Policy um, was then directed to um, to uh, regulate federal agencies and regu- federal agencies provide guidance to us.
▶ 2:04:35Those clear um, expectations from our federal agencies related to research security have been very helpful to us. Um, anytime the federal granting agencies are able to harmonize those regulations, it provides clear and consistent guidance to universities such as the University of Florida so that we can ensure that we are be- being good stewards of the of the federal research enterprise. Thank you. Thank you. Ms. Johnson, real quickly in about 40 seconds.
▶ 2:05:04Um, some may argue that discussing the topic uh, this topic could hurt international students by stereotyping people based on race or ethnicity. But on the other hand, can can you share how malign foreign foreign influences affects international students such as Chinese students who are being targeted by their own Yeah, I have talked spoke to a lot of people at Stanford about uh, how the Chinese Communist Party
▶ 2:05:35exerts control over its own people. They have a national security law from 2017 that requires a Chinese citizen, no matter where they are in the world, to report back information if requested. Um, and their families are often threatened if they don't cooperate. Um, so these are the kinds of threats we're looking at and it's really heartbreaking. Well, thank you so much for your courage. As my colleague mentioned earlier, we appreciate your willingness to stand. And with that, Mr. Chairman, I yield back. I thank the gentleman.
▶ 2:06:03And I recognize the gentleman from Oregon or excuse me, Washington. Mr. Baumgardner, uh, originally from Michigan, too, right? Parents were from the great state of
▶ 2:06:14That's what counts. That's the DNA. There we are. There we are. Here we are. Well, thank you, Mr. uh, Chair for holding this hearing on such an important uh, subject. Uh, Mr. Grasso, uh, who owns the University of Michigan? Uh, I believe legally it's the regents that are responsible.
▶ 2:06:32do they work for? They work for the people of Michigan.
▶ 2:06:35The people of Michigan. So, that's the people of Michigan and there's quite a few taxpayer dollars from the federal government as well, too. Indeed.
▶ 2:06:43Yeah. So, it's a public university. What do you think is the public's expectations on transparency uh, when federal funds uh, come to a university like yours? Excuse me, not federal funds, foreign funds come to you for a university like yours. I I think that we attempt to be transparent in all our transactions, Congressman. And you think the public would like that? You think the public wants to know about every dollar that goes every foreign dollar that goes to the University of Michigan? You think the public would like to know about every foreign dollar that goes to the University of Michigan?
▶ 2:07:10I I hesitate to speak for the entire public, but I presume that there is a group uh, a subgroup of the public that would be very interested in that. And is there are there any is there any foreign funding that goes to the University of Michigan that you believe should not be Foreign funding?
▶ 2:07:26I I cannot think of uh, foreign funding unless perhaps uh, we are working with perhaps a pharmaceutical company in uh, in Switzerland uh, as a by way of example where they are developing proprietary uh, pharmaceuticals. Well, let's talk about foreign government funding. Is there any foreign government funding that goes to the University of Michigan that you would think would should not be disclosed? Uh, I can't think of any uh, Congressman at the Okay.
▶ 2:07:55So, we had a bill called the Deterrent Act, which lowers the thresholds for uh, reporting on foreign funding from a current threshold of down to $0 for four key uh, potential foreign adversaries, China, Russia, North Korea, and Iran, and $50,000 for for everybody else. Uh, that bill has passed out of the House. Do you have any problem with the University of Michigan just implementing that bill on its own?
▶ 2:08:23Uh, Congressman, I personally have not looked at that bill and I would
▶ 2:08:28But we just said that you you think every foreign government dollar that goes to your campus, the public has an interest in uh, full disclosure of those public dollars, the same public that owns your university? I I I appreciate that uh, but I would like to to discuss that with my team back in Ann Arbor before I rendered an opinion on that.
▶ 2:08:45Did you use outside counsel to prepare for the hearing today? Uh, yes. You did. What did you pay for the outside counsel uh, for the for the now? You don't know. You're believing transparency in your public university uh, by your taxpayers, but you don't know uh, how much you paid for the outside counsel that helped you prepare today. Uh no, I don't.
▶ 2:09:03Well, they should have prepared you for the question about what is the threshold of foreign dollars foreign government dollars that came to your university because the your public that you work for has real interest on that subject. Uh Ms. Johnson, uh when you were graduated from high school, did you expect to be targeted by Chinese spies on the University of Stanford campus? No, never. So, what was your first reaction when you heard that this was I was really surprised. Um I grew up learning a lot about China.
▶ 2:09:34This was something that I was never really aware Um and I was surprised that it was happening to me because at the time, you know, I was just a freshman research assistant studying China and uh I was surprised that, you know, I would be someone worth targeting. And do you how did Stanford respond? Were they did they did they illustrate due concern? I mean, did they respond the way that you think your parents would have wanted them to respond?
▶ 2:10:06I was definitely disappointed by their response. Um it was kind of dismissive. Uh you know, they just said, "We're looking into this." And nothing ever came of it.
▶ 2:10:18So, at the same time the universities are spending millions of dollars on left-wing woke DEI political nonsense, uh they have a student being targeted uh by spies by Chinese spies on their campus and rather having an immediate appropriate response, uh they were hesitant. Is is that correct? Correct. Well, uh Ms. Johnson, I think you're a rock star. Uh I think you have a very bright future uh in front of you.
▶ 2:10:44Uh I think you're the kind of graduate from America's high schools that every patriotic parent in America aspires to have and I'm sure that you have uh many potential job offers in national security moving forward, but uh me and my office would certainly be interested to talk to you at some point. Thank you, Mr. Chair. With that, I yield back. I I I thank the author of the Turn Act.
▶ 2:11:08And thanks thanks for showing how you can acquire new staff members. And now I uh I'm pleased to recognize the gentleman from Guam, Mr. Moylan. Thank you, Mr. Chairman. Ms. Johnson, consider Guam as well. Thank you. Uh our American colleges and universities, we lead the way, right? We're premier institutions.
▶ 2:11:32Our students and because of this, students from around the world, uh they compete to to come to them. And our colleges and universities, because we lead the way, uh we we play an important role in research, experimentation, and And we're credited with inventing great things, electronic computer, military infrared night vision, uh next-gen radar, countless medical innovations, and even chicken nuggets. Credited to Dr.
▶ 2:12:02Robert Baker from Cornell University in 1963. So, we got to be vigilant and and watch out for our foreign espionage and IP And it's well documented that students and faculties, uh espionage does occur. And our American intellectual property ends up in the hands of foreign adversaries. And Congress take uh common sense action to increase transparency and safeguard our nation's security. Uh Ms.
▶ 2:12:30Johnson, and you were the target of uh suspected uh CCP agent and students uh can um can some of our most our threatened by this by this and pressured by bad actors as you've been explaining. Uh you also called for a reporting mechanism for students um and putting in proper guardrails and victims, but yet victims remain silent. Uh they don't feel comfortable in reporting.
▶ 2:12:58Uh what do you think uh we can do to help help that uh so they don't feel uncomfortable reporting of these incidents and still in addressing these serious security threats, please? I think we need to make sure that whatever reporting mechanism we use is secure and anonymous if needed. I think um a lot of students fear that maybe if they report something, it will get back to them and they could get in trouble.
▶ 2:13:25Um and I also think we just need to have a lot more dialogue about transnational repression and how it's affecting students. I think right now it's sort of not discussed and I think uh if we can bring these things into the light, people will feel a lot more comfortable talking about it. thank you very much for what you do and your courage. I appreciate you very Um Ms.
▶ 2:13:52President Garson, uh in your testimony, you mentioned that there's been a handful of incidents that occurred without the university's knowledge and despite comprehensive security and compliance programs. How do you how can the federal government better support colleges and universities to identify these threats and close awareness gaps? Uh Congressman, thank you.
▶ 2:14:13We work closely with our federal partners and the more closely we can work with them on knowledge that they have about individuals that could pose a threat, uh that would be very helpful to us. But we implement many federal requirements in terms of uh training and uh research controls and export and research security has been and will always be fundamental to our mission. So, we want to work as closely as possible with our federal partners. Appreciate that.
▶ 2:14:42Uh Doc Ms. Fairley, uh Ms. Fairley, uh in your position, you got to ensure compliance every day. It's tough. Uh you also mentioned that your testimony and reporting requirements for community gifts of 50,000 or more for fiscal year being reported by the university. So, to be clear, uh not all large gifts are risk for national security, but I also want to point out that the bad actors are good at getting around reporting requirements can go under the radar.
▶ 2:15:11So, how does UF ensure that it's not missing reporting requirements if bad actors are masking gifts? At at the University of Florida, our institution reviews all agreements regardless of funding level, so not just those that reach a certain dollar threshold. We review all gifts, contracts, and other agreements at a certain funding level.
▶ 2:15:33And in addition to the reporting you have mentioned, um the institution is also required to report um yearly any collaborations or agreements with um entities in foreign countries of concern. So, we have multiple levels of review and oversight.
▶ 2:15:51Uh just a as a follow-up, how can Congress support colleges and universities in identifying bad actors uh who are trying to circumvent reporting requirements and gifts and might put at a security risk, please? Well, I can only speak for the University of Florida.
▶ 2:16:09What I can say is that the recent um efforts of various federal agencies to provide information and resources through such activities as the NSF Secure Center, through the DOD's 1286 list, those types of resources have been very helpful to the University of Florida in identifying um different entities that of which we should be concerned. Thank you. Thank you to the panel. Mr. Chairman, thank Thank the gentleman.
▶ 2:16:36I pleased to recognize the gentle lady from North Carolina, Chairman Emeritus Fox. Thank you very much, Mr. Chairman. I I appreciate [clears throat] that. I I do have some questions, but I want to start out by thanking Joe Wilson for many years ago ringing the alarm on this issue and specifically about Confucius Institutes. I'm not sure Joe has ever gotten the credit that he deserves for that.
▶ 2:17:04President and I thank our witnesses for being here. President Grasso, I understand the University of Michigan had a joint institute partnership with Shanghai Jiao Tong University for over two decades. After congressional letter from the Select Committee on the CCP pointing out the serious military research done by Jiao Tong, I understand this partnership was ended in January of last year. Is that correct? Yes, Congresswoman.
▶ 2:17:34So, can you confirm there are no longer student or faculty exchanges with this Uh Congresswoman, we do not have a formal relationship with that university. We ended it as you mentioned, and it was never a research partnership. It was just an educational partnership where students would study in in one institution or uh the other.
▶ 2:17:57So, we we do have a relationships where our students can do study abroad there just like any students from any universities. It's not a specific program with our university. So, what steps has the University of Michigan taken continually to evaluate its foreign so it doesn't take a congressional letter for the university to end problematic relationships?
▶ 2:18:25We have uh a we have office an office for international relationships and an associate provost that works in this area, and we we've been talking with her about making sure that our relationships do not uh threaten national security. Thank you. Again, President Grasso, current law deems adversarial countries like China and Russia as countries of concern.
▶ 2:18:51Current law also labels certain entities, {quote} foreign entities of concern, {end quote} which includes entities controlled by countries of concern, terrorist organizations, and entities on specific national security list.
▶ 2:19:08Do you believe the University of Michigan should have close relationships with such countries and entities despite these labels and Congresswoman, are you asking specifically should we eliminate all relationships with the countries of concern or I'm just asking, do you think you should have those? I think that we evaluate all of our relationships to make sure that they do not threaten a national security.
▶ 2:19:40Um and are are you committing to the University of Michigan proactively refusing to accept monetary funds from such entities and countries? Uh we will not accept monetary funds that put any of our national security at risk, Thank you. Ms. Farley, you talk about how the University of Florida has a policy not to enter into contracts, agreements, or activities with entities on a US government watchlist.
▶ 2:20:11How do you think this institutional decision boosts research security, and do you think other institutions should follow I can only speak for the University of Florida, but we have had a long-standing policy, as you've referenced, not to enter into any agreement of any kind with an entity with a restricted entity, and we have found that policy to be helpful because it provides clarity to our researchers and other employees about our standards
▶ 2:20:41um as to who they can and cannot interact with. Well, it sounds to me like that would be a good model for other schools to follow. Thank you, Mr. Chairman. I yield I thank the gentlewoman, and I recognize the gentleman from Missouri, or is it Mr. Lander. Thank you, Mr. Chairman. Um and thank you, uh Chairman Walberg, for holding this important oversight hearing.
▶ 2:21:08Uh this year we're preparing for America's 250th anniversary, but this is also the 25th anniversary of the tragic anthrax anthrax attacks in Washington, D.C., and New York, uh which um elevated the danger of bioweapons to national attention. Uh we've made significant strides in biodefense since those attacks, but according to recent reports, uh we're facing a growing threat.
▶ 2:21:37Uh China has renewed its pursuit of anthrax countermeasures and has expanded its anthrax bioweapons Uh this is concerning because these new countermeasures are almost certainly being developed to protect Chinese warfighters and enable the offensive use of anthrax bioweapons.
▶ 2:21:56What's particularly concerning is that the PRC companies producing these anthrax capabilities are affiliated uh with PRC government entities, including the Academy of Military Medical Sciences and State Key a doctrinal part of the PRC's governance.
▶ 2:22:16One example is China Biologics Products Holding uh CBP PH, uh whose anthrax-affiliated subsidiary underwent a 192-acre expansion in uh through a multi-billion-dollar investment to enable more countermeasure production capability, and whose base performance just received PRC regulatory Despite the danger of anthrax biological biological weapons and amid concerns about antitoxin shortfalls in the US Strategic
▶ 2:22:46National Stockpile, American universities have been complicit in driving investments into hedge funds that are funded and enabled these Chinese anthrax facility expansions. One example is Hillhouse, a leading investor in the privatization of CPBH, whose family of funds invested over $300 million. Universities have invested their endowments into various Hillhouse funds.
▶ 2:23:12Stan- uh Stanford reportedly invested $200 million into Hillhouse funds. Yale reported earning over $2 billion from Hillhouse funds. Princeton, MIT, the University of Pennsylvania, and the University of Texas System um are also Hillhouse investors. It's not just anthrax. Hillhouse investments are also connected to uh China's Uyghur genocide. Uh Dr. Gresso, uh Michigan um is also implicated here.
▶ 2:23:42The University of Michigan invested $1.6 billion uh across 83 investments into China. Two current Michigan faculty have co-authored papers with faculty at State Key Laboratory of Toxicology and Medical Countermeasures and the Academy of Military Sciences, uh some of the very same PRC institutions developing anthrax programs.
▶ 2:24:07And as Chairman Walberg highlighted last year, Michigan researchers have recent- uh were recently arrested for trying to smuggle biological materials into Michigan Uh can you confirm that Michigan has uh backed off from investing in funds linked to PRC's anthrax facilities, including Hillhouse and Centurium Capital?
▶ 2:24:32Uh Congressman, uh I am not familiar with the specifics of the investments of our endowment. I can uh take that question back and look into that, but I assure you that if we had concerns that our investments were being used for this type of development, we would uh take appropriate measures.
▶ 2:24:53I- Is Is Is Michigan conducting diligence on where PRC investments are going, and uh do you believe Michigan would commit to divest of PRC-linked funds? Uh Th- Those decisions are made by our Board of Regents, uh Congressman, and I will uh look into whether we do have any investments in PRC uh entities. Okay, very good. Um All right, thank you very much, Mis- Mr. Chairman.
▶ 2:25:23I yield I thank the gentleman, and I recognize the gentleman from Virginia, uh the ranking member, Mr. Scott. Thank you, Mr. Chairman. Uh Ms. Zimmer Harris, you asked answered a question a little earlier uh failed to answer because I understand that's because you hadn't researched the question, and you would give um an answer if it was a question that you had been asked by Congress to research, you could give the answers.
▶ 2:25:52Is that right? That is correct.
▶ 2:25:55Now, we've asked you to look at the dismantling of the Department of Education. Have you experienced access issues and delays in working with the Department of We have, sir. I can provide specifics um on the study that we had looking at the reductions in the Office of Federal Student Aid. We faced significant delays in obtaining just basic data.
▶ 2:26:20For example, we wanted data on the number of reductions in staff, right? It's a job about looking at those staff reductions. We wanted to know the number of staff that had been reduced over the course of the year. Um and we asked for that information at various points. It took us 8 months, sir, to receive that basic data. 8 months to find out how many staff had um been reduced at the Office of Federal Student Aid. In addition, we faced significant delays in scheduling critical meetings.
▶ 2:26:51Thank you. Now, we've heard about the transfer of defaulted student loans from education to um Treasury. [snorts] You already mentioned the fact that the overseeing the service services already a problem. That will obviously be exacerbated if you go over to But let me just ask you a question. Is it possible that some students in default may not actually be entitled to a total discharge of the loan?
▶ 2:27:21We could look into that and circle back with you, sir. I mean, if if if the if somebody's been teaching for 12 years and just didn't know about the public service loan forgiveness program, uh they would be entitled to a discharge, and people in education might know that, but do you think the people in Treasury would know? Um I wouldn't be able to comment on that, sir. Thank you. Okay. Um What did you say about the uh Ms. Ms. Harris?
▶ 2:27:50What did you say about the number of racial discriminations cases brought by the um uh Office of Civil Rights? During the the time period that we looked at from March through uh September of 25, um the office received more than 9,000 complaints of alleged um and they opened additional cases.
▶ 2:28:14Um however, they resolved 7,000 complaints, and 90% of those resolutions were How many of those racial discrimination, do you know? Um we don't know. President Gresso, um you mentioned the value of um an internationally diverse um research body. What happens if you can't recruit the best and the brightest from across the world?
▶ 2:28:43What happens to your Uh Congressman, uh if we are limited in our ability to recruit the best and the brightest, uh, the our potential will be diminished. Um, we've heard a lot about the sensitivity of some of the research. Do your students get security clearances? Uh, our students would only get security clearances if it was required to do work for their research. On a specific project.
▶ 2:29:13project. Um, and so if there's no national defense classification or particular intellectual property rights, students talk about what they do during the day. Why why would they be prohibited from talking about some of the research that they're they're doing? Uh, Congressman, even if it's not restricted in in terms of national security defense, it could be commercial reasons that we would ask our students to maintain confidentiality.
▶ 2:29:43That would be on a case-by-case basis. They would know on that. And so is the research that is in fact sensitive conducted under different conditions than other research? Uh, it it would be a case-by-case basis, Ms. Ms.
▶ 2:30:05Johnson, you indicated a harassment and bullying by the foreign foreign sources foreign agent. And the university did not have a process to respond. Is that right? Yes, that's correct.
▶ 2:30:21And shouldn't the university have a process to respond for that kind of victim victimization regardless of the source of the um victim of the problem? When I was told by the FBI that I'm being transnationally repressed, the FBI told me that they also contacted campus authorities and administration and no one contacted me.
▶ 2:30:44But the what whatever the source, they should have just I don't think there's anything special about the international intrigue about the thing. If you've been victimized like that, they should have had a response. The gentleman yields. Seeing no other members wishing to be recognized, I would now recognize the ranking member, Mr.
▶ 2:31:13Scott from Virginia for his closing statement. Thank you, Mr. Chairman. Mr. Chairman, I think this we've when this side pointed out a lot of problems in higher Uh, we've had many hearings on this apparently one problem. Uh, we've passed legislation last year to deal with it.
▶ 2:31:34Uh, people have gone to jail, so that not sure that anything wrong with the system as it is, but there are serious problems particularly in the student loan area with the um uh, student loan and and the impact of the big ugly bill where there are limitations on the ability particularly going to medical that need to be dealt with and we're not dealing with them.
▶ 2:32:00We've um moving student loans to Treasury will just make things worse. We haven't had any uh hearings on that. And I would hope we'd focus on things that the students were actually dealing uh rather than continually having hearings on the same subject meeting after [clears throat] meeting. You're back.
▶ 2:32:24I thank the gentleman and uh I certainly recognize the sincerity of of your concerns. Uh, I would address the fact that today I I thank you to the to the panel for being here.
▶ 2:32:40this at the very least, I would hope could be seen by my colleagues on both sides of the aisle as a hearing looking at outcomes of what we have sincerely attempted to do in dealing with a significant security dollar usage funding problem international problem
▶ 2:33:10that we took we took significant action on with the Turn Act. I I think it's always good to evaluate. And I look forward to evaluating the impact of the IAAs, all of them, including the exciting impact of what we've done with FAFSA, making it work finally after years of not working and not even being being in place to Uh, I think I think the
▶ 2:33:40uh minority should expect that they will have an opportunity as always to question right up to including the Secretary of And I'm looking forward to that myself. today was I think an example that we educational entities that have had challenges in the past that we were concerned with and now today we see that they've taken significant action.
▶ 2:34:11Nothing will be perfect. The other side, the enemy, I think we could call it, just has to be right once. University of Michigan, champions in the best, have to be right every time. we applaud the efforts of of Florida.
▶ 2:34:34We we applaud the efforts there and I think it was good to see institutions that are using the means necessary to deal with a significant and sincere problem. Thank you.
▶ 2:34:47Stanford, I hope was watching and listening to what was said today by a student, a journalist, committed to getting information and getting it out and the negative impact that she and others like her most likely have on that campus and that shouldn't be the case.
▶ 2:35:11We would hope that Stanford would see that there's a reason to respond aggressively at the very least to make that alumni of the institution goes away with the desire to send others in the future back to that institution. I would think that would be something that we'd we'd want to see with students that that go to our campuses. So I think today was certainly a good evaluative hearing.
▶ 2:35:40Not simply saying we did it with the with the Turn Act. We had a couple of hearings on it leading up to the Turn Act. And now case or case or as my colleague said, pixie dust. I can't even I can't even remember all that he said there. So anyway, that's that's what it was and so I thank you for this information. And I hope there are other institutions all around this country that see we're serious about that.
▶ 2:36:10And that they don't want to be brought up in front of this panel to be shown as missing the mark in doing what's appropriate, being world-class institutions, doing the research that's necessary to keep us moving forward, using a diverse population of people with the intellect, the desires, and the passions necessary to find but always for the best benefit of the United I don't think that's wrong.
▶ 2:36:42I hesitate to move to the alternate hearing that we had today cuz it wasn't alternate hearing. But we've dealt with that. We've dealt with a higher cost of education by trying to put a downward on the high cost of education through the one big beautiful bill, the Working Families Tax Cuts Act. We put caps in place.
▶ 2:37:11We also did something to counteract what was done to exacerbate the problem of student loan debt by the past administration that basically said, "If you wait out long enough, you won't have to pay it back." Oh, the taxpayer will. That's not satisfactory for me. And the majority didn't think it was satisfactory as well. We'll evaluate that, too.
▶ 2:37:36We also put in means by which these individuals who are out of compliance can get back into compliance. Will it take some effort? Oh, you bet it Paying my mortgage off took took some Paying any car loans that I had off that I had in the past took some effort and And I think that's what we have done with our proposal. Will it work? Mr.
▶ 2:38:04Scott, you and I will have the opportunity to ask some of those questions and I think you're right to ask for it and I'm right to want to have that when we have the opportunity. But today, I appreciate uh the discussion we had. I appreciate the answers that were given. The sincerity and even some that couldn't be given, promise to get the information further. I'd like to thank our witnesses again and without objection, there would there being no further business, the committee stands adjourned.