▶ 0:00:49Administration will come to order. The title of today's hearing is oversight with secretaries of state. List maintenance and eligibility verification. I note that a quorum is present. Without objection, the chair may declare a recess at any time. Also, without objection, the hearing record will remain open for five legislative days, so members may submit additional materials they wish to be included therein. Thank you. Ranking member morelli, members of the committee and our witnesses for participating at today's hearing.
▶ 0:01:19I'll now recognize myself for the purpose of making an opening statement today. The committee on house administration continues our oversight of federal elections. We'll focus on state efforts to maintain accurate voter rolls, as well as our efforts to ensure only eligible voters are participating in our democratic process. In january, I sent letters to ten secretaries of state addressing these issues.
▶ 0:01:45My question is focused on topics including voter list maintenance, voter eligibility, including citizenship and registering voters, how states identify and notify ineligible registrants of removal and use of the save database, which the trump administration has made available free of charge.
▶ 0:02:03Two secretaries I wrote are here with us today, kansas secretary of state scott schwab in minnesota, secretary of state steve simon, I thank each of you for your responses and for being with us today. The committee has a responsibility for ensuring states follow federal election law. It's also responsible for drafting necessary legislative reforms, with several recent reports of potential noncitizens appearing on state voter rolls.
▶ 0:02:31I believe it's time to act. In ohio, 62 noncitizens were found on the on the state's voter rolls with the help of the save database in iowa, an illegal alien was working as the superintendent for one of the state's largest school systems. He was registered to vote in the state of maryland and was mailed a ballot in kansas. The same database helped identify non-citizen, who has been charged with illegal voting in three elections. It actually also turns out that he was a mayor of a city in kansas.
▶ 0:03:01In just three days ago, a non-citizen was charged in minnesota for voting in the 2024 election. These are real stories, and current federal law is part of the problem. The national voter registration act and the help america vote act set baseline standards for voter registrations back in 1993. In 2002, respectively.
▶ 0:03:28However, we've identified serious flaws in these statutes that are actually weakening election integrity. For example, under the nvra, each state must include a voter registration application with every driver's license application. This in particular creates a serious problem when states are allowing illegal aliens to receive driver's licenses.
▶ 0:03:50So to get this clear, under current law, illegal aliens are required to receive voter registration materials when they get a driver's license. That's absolutely nuts. Congress caused this problem and we need to fix it. Issues like this are only compounded when states fail to maintain accurate voter rolls. Consider the implications in states with universal vote by mail policies.
▶ 0:04:20In those states, a live ballot is automatically mailed to every person on the voter rolls for every election. When list maintenance is insufficient, ballots ballots can be sent to people who have moved or to people who are deceased. What's to stop our current resident from an address for mailing back a ballot that's not theirs, and sending it in their real flaws and fixing it, something we should all be able to get behind. It's common sense reforms.
▶ 0:04:48This is exactly why I introduced the make elections great again act, the mega act. The mega act updates, clarifies and strengthens voter list maintenance standards, including a new requirement that states conduct general maintenance at least every 30 days. This baseline requirement would ensure that every state takes the proper steps to keep their voters voter lists accurate and up to date. Election integrity is not a complicated issue.
▶ 0:05:16Only eligible voters should be casting ballots in our elections. One illegal vote is too many. Congress has the ability to strengthen standards for federal elections, and it's time that we act. Doing so will will boost voter confidence and increase participation in our elections. And that's a good thing. I think our both of our secretaries for being with us today, and I look forward to our conversation. I'll now recognize the ranking member, Mr.
▶ 0:05:44Morelli, for five minutes for the purpose of providing his opening statement. >> thank you, Mr. chair, for convening us. And, um, in just a moment, I'll thank our witnesses. But I think the one thing we can all agree on today is to express our congratulations to chairman steele and his beautiful wife, kaylie, on their recent nuptials. I understood you used, uh, well, used the time we were away from washington. So I just want to.
▶ 0:06:11As someone who's been happily, blissfully married for 42 years, uh, I think, uh, I can certainly say that I'm, uh, so incredibly happy for you and for your beautiful bride and want to wish you all the best. >> thank you very much. >> yeah. Um, so, uh, thank you again for the hearing. And thanks to our witnesses. And by the way, I don't want my time to be used congratulating the chair. I just want the record. Thank you. Thank you for giving me my time back.
▶ 0:06:37I, I also want to thank our witnesses for joining us today. We are grateful to you and to your fellow election officials around the country who work so hard to ensure fair, free and secure elections. I am and everyone should be dismayed by the continuing baseless attacks on our democracy intended to sow false doubt in election administrators like the two public servants who are with us today.
▶ 0:07:04I say everywhere that I am incredibly grateful to local and state administrators who I think jealously guard the sacred obligation and right and duty they have to count elections. And american citizens should know because I want to speak to them first. You should know your elections are secure. Your vote will count. Your vote is your power. It is your right. Please, please, please use it.
▶ 0:07:28The people lying about the security of our elections want to take your power away by discouraging you from voting at all. They want to take your power away by attacking local election administrators and making it harder for them to serve your communities. Uh, they're desperate to make voters distrust democracy because they're afraid of losing power. All the suggestions that they're making about changes aren't about improving the process.
▶ 0:07:57It's about improving the process for political power. Um, you should you begin to believe those lies. They have seized control from you, the american voter. Don't let them get away with it. In america, voters are in charge. Citizens are in charge. Use your power and use it by voting. Second, I want to speak to our witnesses, um, and share with you how deeply I respect your work. Thank you for your public service. I'm confident you both will run free, fair, and secure elections in your states.
▶ 0:08:27You both deserve our support. You both deserve congress's gratitude and respect. No one who does the jobs you do deserve to have resources slashed by, um, my friends here, the other side of the aisle who think it's fine to severely underfund hava grants. In fact, this morning, um, in a budget bill that was released, uh, the majority proposes $15 million nationally for election security grants, $15 million for the whole country.
▶ 0:08:56I if I was good enough to do the math quickly, the 150 million or so americans who cast ballots and divide it by $15 million, it's not even pennies per voter. So we need to do so much better. And you do not deserve to have new, unnecessary burdens from terrible bills like that.
▶ 0:09:14With all due respect, the mega act and the save america act, um, which land on you right as you are in the middle of in some states running primaries already, some have already happened. And certainly as you're preparing for the midterm elections, you do not not, not do not deserve to be falsely accused of failing to do your jobs by the same people who refused to give you resources and support to do your jobs.
▶ 0:09:40You also do not deserve the unprecedented threats and risks the trump administration is piling on top of these burdens that are being, uh, furthered by my friends on the other side of the aisle. You and your voters deserve a department of justice that will protect voting rights and support critical work that you do, not one that makes illegal demands to turn over private voting data so the trump administration can decide who gets to vote.
▶ 0:10:06In your case, secretary schwab kansans do not deserve a doj that lies in court. By claiming your state has violated voter privacy by giving doj sensitive data, like social security numbers for kansas voters.
▶ 0:10:20In your case, secretary simon, minnesotans deserve a doj that upholds its mission to keep the american people safe, not a doj that tries to extort voter rolls at gunpoint like they did after the senseless shootings of renee good and alex pretty, you and your voters deserve a department of homeland security that provides cybersecurity assistance, information sharing to identify and mitigate risks, disaster preparedness, and other essential support, not a
▶ 0:10:50Cisa or cybersecurity and infrastructure security agency that's been hollowed out by malicious conspiracy theorists and enablers here in congress. You and your voters deserve an intelligence community and director of national intelligence who will protect americans and secure our election critical infrastructure against foreign threats, not weaponized intelligence authorities for political purposes.
▶ 0:11:12You deserve a president who respects the constitution of the united states, not any legal executive order purporting to take over your authorities and attacking the ability of american citizens to vote by mail. Of course, that's the same donald trump, I hesitate to point out, but it's important to who voted by mail just last month, even though he was in florida during early voting and could have gone to a polling place, but somehow found time over the weekend to go to a ufc championship fight in person,
▶ 0:11:44Donald trump thinks he deserves special privileges while making things harder and more costly for americans. You deserve a federal government. You can trust a federal government that has your back. I wish my colleagues on the other side of the aisle, uh, felt the same way, and I hope this political moment is over. We'll get back to nonpartisan pro-democracy values. There's so much good work we could do together to support you.
▶ 0:12:08The things like sufficient funding and a functional system that provides cyber assistance and information sharing, uh, that we all need to do. And, uh, while I have much more to say, uh, in the interest of time, I will again, thank you for the opportunity to speak, Mr. chairman, and I yield back. >> the gentleman yields back. Without objection, all members opening statements will be made part of the hearing record if they're submitted to the committee clerk by 5 p.m. Today. Today we have a one panel witness. First, we have kansas secretary of state scott schwab.
▶ 0:12:39Next, we have minnesota secretary of state steve simon. We appreciate both of you being with us here today and look forward to your testimony. I'll now recognize secretary schwab for five minutes for his opening statement. >> thank you, chairman and ranking member morelli and members of the committee for the opportunity to testify as kansas secretary of state, ensuring voter rolls are maintained in accordance with state and federal laws is critical. Kansas has been a leader in election security and integrity efforts for many years.
▶ 0:13:08When I chaired the legislature's house committee on elections in kansas, we enacted voter id, which is government issued and must just have a name and a photo on it in the document. We also had documentary proof of citizenship in 2011. As secretary of state, we have strengthened post-election audits, added procedural audits, increased physical and cyber security requirements for county election offices, banned ranked choice voting, and the state eliminated a grace period, received ballots after election day.
▶ 0:13:34These measures strengthened our election system without increasing burdens on voters, maintaining accurate voter rolls for 2 million registered voters is constant. I have made it a priority to pursue every legal tool to identify voters whose registration should be updated. In kansas, 105 election officials conducted voter roll maintenance daily. Approximately 5% of the registrations are updated every federal election due to routine voter maintenance.
▶ 0:13:59And on average, we had about 200,000 new registrants every federal election cycle. The most common maintenance activity is updating our records. For voters who move the. Kansas uses multiple tools, including deduplication, the ncoa for address. For address maintenance. Identifying voters who move out of state is a challenge. That is why we established with secretaries of texas and missouri to compare voter lists.
▶ 0:14:23I intend to work with other states to establish more mou, to identify duplicate registrants and prevent double voting across state lines. A tool we are barred from using is the interstate cross check program. Kansas ran this effective program for 20 years to identify voters who moved out of state. At its height, the program compared the voter rolls of 35 states. It was compelled to be discontinued in 2018. Kansas removes about 28,000 registrants annually because of death.
▶ 0:14:49We have not identified any voters who cast a ballot after they were deceased. Verification of death occurs from three sources weekly data from the state's vital statistics, a voter's obituary and social security administration's death master file. While kansas law permits the use of this data, it only became available after president trump's executive order 1414248, requiring ssh to share the data with the states. Kansas cross indexed its voter rolls with ssa last fall.
▶ 0:15:17More than 5500 registrants were removed following independent verification of the ssa data to ensure the correct voter was removed. Again, no deceased voters voted. Kansas was on the forefront of enacting two election integrity measures in 2011 voter id and documentary proof of citizenship. However, in 2018, the federal courts banned kansas from enforcing its citizenship laws.
▶ 0:15:41Unable to check citizenship at registration, we have focused on screening our rolls for potential non-citizens by reviewing temporary driver's license. My office introduced legislation that now requires the dmv to provide quarterly lists of individuals that have a tdl to verify only citizens are on the on our voter rolls. In reviewing judicial branch reports. For any potential juror who claims they are not a citizen. And at the beginning of 2025, my office was one of the first to utilize the safe system to review the entire state.
▶ 0:16:10Voter roll safe is one of the most important tools tools states have to verify voter information. We're grateful for the president's prioritize this at no cost. After running the voter rolls through, save the rolls are cross-checked for intent, for potential non-citizens, for follow up and possible criminal prosecution. The attorney general. I do have a close working relationship, and when there is suspicion of an election crime, including noncitizen voting, it is referred to him.
▶ 0:16:35To date, the attorney general has brought two criminal indictments and my office has referred seven more suspected non-citizens to the attorney general. The importance of this collaboration is highlighted by the discovery of a non-citizen serving as mayor of coldwater, kansas. This person registered to vote prior to the kansas proof of citizenship law, which grandfathered him in.
▶ 0:16:54However, having access to save system prior to this administration would have identified this person and prevented additional alleged crimes from being committed to further strengthen laws in this area. My office is successfully pursued legislation to take effect july 1st to mandate the use of safe twice a year and require state agencies to report non-citizens who apply for benefits. Honor voter roll comparison. Mr. chairman, kansas has a strong checks in place to ensure eligible voters are on the rolls.
▶ 0:17:23I appreciate president a, available and social security data at no cost. I also appreciate the diligence of county election officials, and I can't say that enough to ensure errors are not made in voter roll maintenance that would jeopardize public confidence in our system. Thank you. >> thank you very much, secretary schwab. Secretary simon, you're now recognized for five minutes. >> thank you chairman. >> thank you, chairman style ranking member morelli and members of the committee. It's an honor to be with you.
▶ 0:17:51I'm grateful for the invitation, and I'm glad to be here alongside my colleague and friend, secretary scott schwab of kansas, also glad to be reunited with my former colleague as secretary of state. Now, representative lea, minnesota is proud of its accurate, fair, secure, accessible and trusted election system, and I appreciate the opportunity to speak about it specifically the work that is done to ensure that minnesota's voter rolls are accurate and up to date.
▶ 0:18:17Now, as you know, voter roll lists, maintenance and eligibility verification are governed by extensive state and federal laws. The robust procedures minnesota follows to ensure compliance with these laws can't be covered entirely in my five minutes of remarks, but I'll attempt to cover the most critical aspects of minnesota's system. Here, I've included additional detailed information in my written remarks. Minnesota has a variety of rigorous election security measures in place before, on and after election day to ensure that our voter rolls are accurate.
▶ 0:18:45In minnesota, voters can register to vote either through a voter registration application or, if they are eligible, through the secure automatic voter registration process with the minnesota driver and vehicle services division of the department of public safety.
▶ 0:19:02Minnesota is one of about half the states in the nation that adopted secure automatic voter registration, and it's important to note that individuals are only eligible to be included in that system if they provide citizenship affirming documentation, such as a birth certificate or a passport at the time they apply for a driver's license or state id card.
▶ 0:19:20Regardless of the method of registration, every voter registration application is compared to our state's driver's license database or the social security administration help america vote verification database depending on the identification number provided by the voter at the time of their application. This initial comparison process is not unique to minnesota and is governed by the help america vote act.
▶ 0:19:42Once this initial comparison has been completed and the registration is added into the state database that we call s, v, r, s or statewide voter registration system, every single voter is also mailed a non affordable postal verification card. If that card is returned as undeliverable, the voter's record is challenged and if a second postal verification card is returned as undeliverable, the record is inactivated.
▶ 0:20:07Once a record is entered into the statewide voter registration system, it is continuously compared to multiple data sets, including monthly reports from the minnesota department of corrections on individuals incarcerated for a felony sentence. Daily reports from the minnesota court system on those who have had their right to revoke to vote, revoked. Monthly reports from the department of public safety on non-citizens with temporary status in the us, and monthly reports from not one but two death indices.
▶ 0:20:35The minnesota department of health and data from the social security administration. We also use data to ensure that duplicate voter records are identified and removed, and that our voter records are as up to date as possible. This includes comparing voter records against court data to identify legal name changes, the us postal service, national change of address, registry and address data maintained in minnesota's driver's licensing system.
▶ 0:20:59We also securely share information with 25 states and the district of columbia to identify voters who have moved or registered in a different jurisdiction. In the rare cases where a potential voter registration violation is identified, state law requires referrals to the county attorney for investigation and prosecution. In addition, we also conduct annual list maintenance to inactivate any voter record that has not been updated by voting or other registration activity in over four years.
▶ 0:21:30This work to maintain accurate voter rolls is done by local election officials in minnesota's 87 counties, and that work is supported on election day by hundreds of municipalities and by over 30,000 poll workers. These minnesotans who work to administer our elections are committed to safe, secure and accessible elections for all eligible voters in minnesota.
▶ 0:21:50And I'm proud to say that public trust in this system is exceedingly high, as evidenced both by public opinion polling in minnesota and by the fact that minnesota routinely leads the nation in voter turnout. As minnesota's chief election official, I'm proud to oversee a system that provides broad access to eligible voters while maintaining the security necessary to preserve fair and accurate elections. Thank you so much for having me again, and I look forward to your questions. >> thank you very much, secretary simon.
▶ 0:22:19Um, thank you both for being here. Um, I'll now recognize myself, uh, to begin questions, we'll then follow up with the ranking member, uh, and go back and forth. Um, let's start with basic principles. Do you both agree that noncitizens should not be voting in us elections? >> yes. >> Mr. chairman, do you agree with the principle? So let's let's dive in. I want to dive in with you, Mr. simon or secretary simon, if I can, on minnesota's, um, situation here.
▶ 0:22:48Does minnesota issue driver's licenses to illegal aliens? >> uh, Mr. chair, to non-citizens broadly, uh, those who are documented and undocumented? >> yes. So non-citizens, including illegal aliens. Um, and is it distinguish on the driver's license, whether or not an individual is a citizen or not? >> Mr. chair. No, it does not know. >> it does not some states do you. Minnesota does not. Um, so if an individual comes to register day of minnesota, you allow same day registration. Is that accurate. >> correct. >> and if an individual comes in and registers it was there.
▶ 0:23:20There's no photo id requirement on same day registration in minnesota. Accurate. >> correct. >> and so an individual wouldn't have to show their id. And if they did show their id, it wouldn't say whether or not they're a united states citizen. >> Mr. chair, I'm hesitating only because there are certain circumstances that might be different from that. But I take the meaning of your question. Yes, it's not required. >> right. And in minnesota, you have a vouching opportunity as well, right.
▶ 0:23:43So an individual who is registered to vote in minnesota, uh, could show up with up to eight individuals and vouch for them. Is that accurate? >> yes, but they are only vouching for where they live, not their citizenship or age only. >> because it's not it's not asked. Right. I mean, they would simply check a box that would say that they are a us citizen. Is that accurate? >> as in almost every other state? >> yes, it's an attestation aspect. So where they live is what you could vouch for. Correct.
▶ 0:24:12So an individual who's registered to vote in minnesota could walk in with eight people from the quality learning center, vouch that they live in minneapolis. Uh, and those individuals would then be registered to vote, would be capable of casting a ballot. Is that accurate? >> uh, not quite. Uh, almost. I would say they have to live in the same precinct and they have to swear an oath, and that's all. >> they would have to swear to that, right?
▶ 0:24:39I mean, that one person could vouch for up to eight individuals that that is the case. >> just as to residents, that's true. >> right. And so then the concern is whether or not people are doing this inaccurately. So let's look at a case that just came to the forefront in your home state of minnesota. An individual from fillmore county, uh, has now been charged with voting illegally.
▶ 0:24:58The individual was sent according to the, the the reports was sent, uh, voter registration material, uh, following obtaining a driver's license, which is required, uh, under federal law that the state of minnesota does that. Is that correct? >> actually, no, mister chair, because we're nvra exempt. >> your your nvra exempt. Uh, good, good qualification, but they are sent in the state of minnesota, so not required under federal law. Most states are nvra exempt. But you do send voter registration.
▶ 0:25:26The state of minnesota sends voter registration material, uh, to every individual that registers, uh, that that obtains the driver's license. >> no, Mr. chair, actually, that's not how the system works. And I would just say as to the news report you're flagging, this individual, uh, said things that is reported to have said things that that just aren't true, that he was sent some sort of, you know, application that is not the state of the law, was not the state of the law when he registered his alleged to have registered to vote in 2023. So I think he got that wrong.
▶ 0:25:54But no, we have a back end avr automatic voter registration system, and the only folks who are eligible to even be in the pile to be considered to be registered to vote are those who produce citizenship affirming documentation at the time they apply for that id. >> what citizenship affirming documentation would they provide? >> it could be naturalization papers, it could be a birth certificate, it could be a passport. But any person in minnesota is entitled to do that.
▶ 0:26:19But again, they only get to the pile where they're even considered to be registered if they do that. >> and why would you not use the same database in minnesota? >> well, in our. >> it's free right under now under the trump administration has made the same database free. >> I think that's right. We have made the determination. Every state has to make its own. I'm not throwing shade on my colleague, uh, secretary schwab, but we have made the determination that it is not yet ready for use in minnesota, and we would need a statutory change under minnesota law to do.
▶ 0:26:48>> a statutory change under minnesota law to allow you to use the same database. Mr. Mr. schwab, do you find value in the same database. >> we do? Um, nobody wants a person who's deceased on their voter rolls. And so what happens is where you reside is not hard and fast where you can, you can live. And for example, I dealt with someone the other day that she lives in oklahoma, but she's married to a soldier in virginia station, virginia. She votes in oklahoma.
▶ 0:27:17Well, if she were to die in virginia, there's no way for us to know that she died there. So they would. >> find value in using. >> so yeah. So that's why we end up with so many, because we haven't done this for over ten years. And these people have died in other states. And so then we send it to the county. The county reaches out to the family or does research to find it. >> okay, time to time, because I want to make sure all my colleagues get their questions in. Uh, I think there's a real value in the same database.
▶ 0:27:45I hope minnesota makes a decision to utilize it. I'll yield back. I'll now recognize the ranking member, Mr. morelli, for five minutes for questions. >> thank you. I, um, since we're I'm going to skip ahead to a question I was going to ask later, but, um, since we're on the topic, um, secretary simon, I understand minnesota is a member of erikj, which is a nonprofit organization that provides data matching.
▶ 0:28:10So to the point that was just being made by, uh, chairman style, um, it, I think it would probably be malpractice not to talk about electronic registration information center known as eric. Uh, in these proceedings. Can you tell minnesota is still a participant in. Eric about 25 states are could you explain to the committee the value of. Eric, particularly in the context of this state, to state? >> yes. Uh, thank you. Representative.
▶ 0:28:38I mean, good data is the coin of the realm here, right? I think we all agree on that. Whether it's, uh, a particular source, uh, is good or not. We agree that that good data matters and we get really good data from eric because it enables us across state lines to do very confidential anonymized matching. In other words, personal information is not disclosed as such. It's coded, it's shared in an anonymized way.
▶ 0:29:03And it enables us very consistently and effectively to find people who have moved to another state who are perhaps still registered in minnesota. In rare cases, it enables us to find people who have double voted or attempted to double vote. So because of the scope and because of the routine data sharing, we find tremendous value in it. The more states are in it, the better, of course, but it's just about half of the states and we find it invaluable.
▶ 0:29:29>> and so the, the example that was used, um, from oklahoma to, I forget where the virginia, maybe you said secretary schwab wouldn't that wouldn't eric, be a tool that would allow you to trace where people are and whether they'd be eligible in one state or another representative? >> it would be a good tool. The problem is, is it's expensive, and we don't have the resources to join the. The cost of eric is determined by member states. Yeah.
▶ 0:29:56And I used to tell the folks at eric, if you can get california to join, then we can probably afford it because of the population of california. But then after other states like florida and texas left. Eric. It's it would just be too expensive. >> thank you. I appreciate your honesty in that.
▶ 0:30:13And frankly, I would say this too, that this is where I think the federal government does have a role to play, to defer costs that would make it easier for states to share data, to come together in a way that makes sense for all citizens. If we want to instill confidence in people, we should be investing resources. $15 million, uh, for election security grants in this moment to me is it's actually, I almost have preferred zero.
▶ 0:30:40At least that's less embarrassing than 15 million, which wouldn't pay for, frankly, anything. And I'm really disappointed in that number. Uh, if I can, um, with my remaining time secretary simon, you mentioned and I think minnesota turnout is consistently high, uh, about 10% higher than the national average. If I'm, if I'm, uh, getting that right. Um, what, what do you think you're doing?
▶ 0:31:09Frankly, that helps encourage that kind of turnout because frankly, we should be looking at models that increase turnout across the country. 80 million I ate pardon me for interrupting you before you even answered the question. 80 million voting age eligible americans didn't vote in the last presidential election. That should be the national topic for congress. How do we encourage those 80 million to join their fellow citizens in participating?
▶ 0:31:35But maybe you could give me a thought or two on what you think is particularly going well in minnesota. That would allow us to use it as an example. >> sure. Thanks, representative. I'll never say no to an excuse to to brag about our high voter turnout, which, by the way, goes back a long time, decades. It doesn't matter whether democrats or republicans are in charge. We love to vote. You know, I think it boils down, in my judgment, to two main things good laws and a good pro-voter culture in minnesota.
▶ 0:31:59As to the laws, we're all looking for the same thing, which is the perfect balance of such a thing exists between access and security access, meaning let's not make it an obstacle course unnecessarily security, meaning let's make sure that only eligible voters and no one else is taking advantage of that accessibility. And in terms of the culture, I think some of it is self-perpetuating. We're sort of a little bit competitive with other powerhouse states like Mr. chairman, wisconsin, a perennial rival when it comes to sports and voter turnout.
▶ 0:32:29And, um, so I think it's those two things briefly that that explain our success. >> I appreciate it. Let me just close again by thanking you both and secretaries all around this country and local election administrators who I think are doing an amazing job. Our job here shouldn't be to tip the scales for a particular political party. Our job ought to make sure that the american voters have the opportunity to render their verdicts. Even when I don't particularly love the verdict they render, I have enormous respect for it.
▶ 0:32:55I have trust in the american people before I yield, if I might just ask unanimous consent to enter into the record. A statement from the dean of the minnesota congressional delegation, representative mccollum. >> without objection. >> and it also asks unanimous consent to enter into the record the following four items a report by the bipartisan policy center entitled modernizing voter list maintenance, which lays out evidence based bipartisan approaches to addressing these concerns.
▶ 0:33:20Secondly, a report by the institute for responsive government bipartisan policy center and r street institute entitled united in security how every state protects your vote in 2026, which details the critical steps states take to secure voting systems and registration. Uh, a report by the states united democracy center entitled report on the election oversight group allegations about the 2020 election in fulton county, georgia, which details the conspiracy theories that the administration is regrettably believing about election systems.
▶ 0:33:50And finally, a report by the institute for responsive government state citizenship lists in trump's march 31st, 2026 elections executive order, which details the absolute pardon me, insanity of the citizenship list that the president's recent executive order attempts to impose on our states. >> without objection. Uh, gentleman yields back. I now recognize the gentlewoman from florida, the former secretary of state of the state of florida, representative lee. >> thank you, Mr.
▶ 0:34:16Chairman, and thank you to secretary schwab and secretary simon for being here today. As a former secretary of state, I had the privilege of serving with both of today's witnesses as my colleagues, and we are very grateful to you both for bringing your expertise to our committee hearing today. I've also seen firsthand how critical it is to maintain the accuracy of voter rolls and how much that process relies on good and up to date information.
▶ 0:34:46So today's discussion is particularly important because it helps us understand what more we can be doing to keep pace with modern capabilities, modern technology, and how we can be supporting our state and local election officials in their efforts to keep accurate current voter rolls. So I'd like to start by going back to you, secretary schwab.
▶ 0:35:08Uh, you mentioned a number of different data sources that you are using related to voter list maintenance. You discussed the same database. You discussed the social security death information. You also noted that some of those are now accessible to you at no cost. My first question to you is this is it accurate that previous to this administration, some of those services actually were only available to states?
▶ 0:35:37Uh, if there was a fee associated with them? >> yes, that's my understanding. There's, there is a fee charged before, um, the program ceased. Um, I believe during president then president barack obama's second term. And that was the end of the save program until just last fall. >> and are those tools an assistance to you? Are they helping you in drawing down data to work on your list maintenance? >> absolutely, absolutely.
▶ 0:36:07The more, the more data sets you can compare with, the better the system works. >> now, one thing that I'm interested in is actually something that the ranking member, morelli touched on, and that is the notion of federal grants and federal support at the state and local level.
▶ 0:36:25Are there particular things that, in your view, we could be doing to assist with the voter list maintenance process, whether that is data or technology, are there things that congress could be doing more to support you? >> there's a couple things. Um, one, and this is where I'll disagree with the ranking minority leader. I always come from the school of thought that elections are best run locally and funded locally.
▶ 0:36:53Um, I get in trouble when I accept funds, but I'm expected to accept them. But then there's a match. But my legislature is not in session. So now I'm spending money that without legislative approval on the match. And this last session, they didn't approve the match. So we're trying to hopefully not have to send the money back to the federal government because of the match. I'd rather just because of the strings attached. Just don't give me any more money. If we need more money, we can handle it locally. Um, some other things.
▶ 0:37:22Like in the nvra, there's a 90 day shut up period. It would be nice if that was a little bit shorter. And also if there were some exemptions, if we have a confirmed death, then I would like to be able to pull that person off the voter rolls at that time and not have to wait till after the election to do that. Um, and there's other things that we would, you know, simple things, but just make it narrow.
▶ 0:37:44Don't there's this image that by some folks that think I'm just at the computer at my desk and I can delete voter registrations, I, I can't, um, it starts at the county level and I, and I appreciate the ranking minority's comments on local election officials because they're the ones who do it. And these are the people that you go to church with, your kids play sports with each other, and they're making sure that everything's done fairly. >> now, you just touched on something that I think is very important that I want to be sure we highlight.
▶ 0:38:11And it's this because of the existing blackout periods, even if you have a verified death of a voter in your community that's on your voter rolls, it's correct to say that there's this time period where you can't remove them from the rolls, regardless of the fact that you verified that information. Correct? >> yeah, that's 90 days of list maintenance. That's just lost. >> mhm. And so would it be helpful to you if that time period was shortened or changed or eliminated? What do you think would be the best approach to that? That blackout. I'd like it.
▶ 0:38:42>> I'm sorry. I didn't mean to interrupt, representative. I would like it shortened. And then certain exemptions like death. If we have a confirmed death, for example. God forbid I was assassinated within the 90 day. It would be very public. It'd be known. But yet it's against federal law to remove me from the voter rolls. It's a I think it should be okay to remove me in that situation or anybody else that you have a confirmed death again. Sure. It's got to be confirmed. It can't be just by rumor. >> thank you. Secretary. Mr. chairman, I yield back.
▶ 0:39:12>> the gentleman yields back the representative. Representative sewell is recognized for five minutes. >> thank you, Mr. chairman. Uh, secretary schwab, I want to discuss voting by mail. Um, I consider voting by mail a safe and accessible way to vote. In fact, 48 million americans, or about 1 in 3, uh, voters use vote by mail in the 2024 election.
▶ 0:39:35Uh, now, mail voting is under attack both by the president, who himself votes by mail, I may add, and by administrative issues in the postal service that we can all agree must be addressed. Um, Mr. secretary, you shared your concerns about delivery services time and postmarking, uh, issues with in a letter that you sent to then postmaster general. Uh, dejoy. And I think that was in september of 2024.
▶ 0:40:04Um, in this letter you wrote, quote, the postal service failure to deliver as promised, has disenfranchized approximately 1000 voters in kansas. Correct. Um, you also describe that disenfranchized disenfranchisement as, quote, a failure to provide service that enables kansans to exercise their constitutional right to vote. Correct. Uh, Mr.
▶ 0:40:29Chairman, I'd like to unanimous consent to enter into the record secretary schwab's letter to then postmaster general dejoy. >> without objection. >> uh, secretary schwab, do you agree that voting by mail is a critical tool that eligible voters and that people just like the president should be able to cast their their ballots by mail? >> I do with a caveat. And by the way, representative, we've met.
▶ 0:40:56Have we in in your home district, uh, then secretary merrill did a joint venture and we've met. Thank you. >> for secretary mail was then the secretary of state for the state of alabama. Yeah. >> it's a. Thank you so much for taking the time with us. It was a it was a an impactful trip, to say the least. >> absolutely. Now, tell me about vote by mail. Do you vote by mail? Um, so. >> I stand by my comments.
▶ 0:41:21Um, we have ballots from the 2020 election, show up at county election offices three years later, which is why I always. >> say, I mean, I think that the mail I think that you were you you were concise, which is why I put in the your letter into the record. So I get it. And I do believe that it is a critical tool. It needs a lot of work with the postmaster general to get there on time.
▶ 0:41:44And I will admit that, um, secretary schwab in 2011, uh, when you were in kansas state legislature, you supported a bill that required documentary proof of citizenship to vote. That law blocked the the registration of more than 31,000 us citizens who were eligible to vote. And the law was eventually blocked in the court.
▶ 0:42:04When asked by the associated press in 2024 about a similar provision contained in the save act, you said, quote, kansas did that ten years ago and it didn't work out so well. End quote. Uh, Mr. secretary, do you still stand by those words that requiring documentary proof of citizenship, um, to register to vote doesn't really work that well? >> well, it didn't work. Um, and it was because back then we were supposed to have real id, but the brownback administration stalled it.
▶ 0:42:32And that would have made the process simpler because then no illegal immigrant would get a driver's license, um, or a real id, but that was stalled. And that's what created the problems with registrants you talked of. >> well, I have to say that, um, I, I believe that restrictions proposed in the so-called save act are just as dangerous. And I think that it lends itself to the same kind of processing that may eventually stop people who are legitimately american citizens from voting.
▶ 0:43:01Um, so my next question actually goes to, um, to you, secretary simon. Um, as a chief, as the chief election officer of your state, is it your opinion that this executive order, um, is an unconstitutional violation of state authority? And in particular, I'm talking about the president's executive order that attempts to interfere with states and the postal service from delivering mail ballots.
▶ 0:43:26I know that minnesota, along with 23 other states, is suing to block this order. Can you talk a little bit about that? >> yes, I agree with that statement. This is similar to the executive order last year putting on the shelf, just for a minute, the merits, whether you think it's a good idea or bad idea, were persuaded, as our other states, that it's just not constitutional. The president may want to do these things. The proper way to do it is through an act of congress, not through executive order.
▶ 0:43:54>> so can you describe briefly the impact that both the save act, save america act and the executive order would have if they were to go into effect? >> yeah, I would just say based on, uh, I'll concentrate a little bit on vote by mail since that's your chief interest. You know, I'm concerned with the executive order on the merits that it's putting the postal service in a position that I don't think it's ever been in, which is being the eligibility cops when it comes to elections. I don't know how they'd stand up that sort of infrastructure. Uh, I just don't know how that would go down.
▶ 0:44:23I'm not an expert on the postal service. That's a real concern. And the save act, likewise, would make voting by mail very difficult in the sense of providing the proper proofs. >> um, Mr. chairman, I'd like unanimous consent to enter into the record. Um, an article, uh, entitled kansas once required voters to prove citizenship that just didn't work so well. End quote. >> without objection, the gentleman yields back. The gentleman from georgia, representative loudermilk, is recognized for five minutes. Thank you, Mr. chairman. And thank both of you for being here today.
▶ 0:44:53Very important topic because unlike any other, uh, law in our country, uh, election integrity is something that has to be proactive. It doesn't work if it's reactive, right? Because when you look at, let's say, a general election for congress, um, that happens at the beginning of november, the presumed winner is going to take office within a matter of days, a couple of months after.
▶ 0:45:21So if you find out that someone was ineligible to vote and they voted, you can't undo it, right? It's, it's, it's something that that you must be proactive if you're going to have an election system that has integrity. Um, that's one of the reasons georgia did, uh, what they did in 2021, a very proactive system to ensure the eligibility of the voter prior to them voting.
▶ 0:45:46Um, uh, secretary schwab, if a, if a voter is registered to vote in your state, but a resident in another state, are they considered an eligible voter? >> not necessarily because we don't have a residency definition. It's very loose.
▶ 0:46:07Um, so you could live in another state 80% of the time, but you also live in kansas 10% of the time and you only register to vote there. That's completely legal. >> but I'm talking about the residency there, a citizen of another state, they're resident. In other words, they're registered to vote in two states. >> yeah. Um, there's no way for me to do it without eric. But again, there's burdens and costs that come with that. Um, but there's not a document that says, I am a resident here.
▶ 0:46:39You're registered to vote there, but that doesn't necessarily mean that's where these residency rules are just so fluid. What defines a resident is different between each jurisdiction. >> so if somebody lives in kansas, they permanently move, let's say, to florida. They keep their their voter registration in kansas. You still consider them a registered voter, an eligible voter, I should say. >> well, if they're registered in florida, no. And so what we do is we do the national change of address.
▶ 0:47:10>> that's what I'm getting to. >> yeah. >> what about in in minnesota? Somebody lives in minnesota, moves to florida. They register to vote there. They're still registered to vote. Do you know that? They're still that they've registered to vote in florida. Do you have a way of determining this? >> yes, representative. Yes, we would hope so. Right. I mean, if they're a member state of eric, we absolutely would. But even if they're not, uh, given the databases that we run all this information through, including change of address, yes, there's a good chance we would discover it. >> okay, so you guys do your, your voter roll maintenance.
▶ 0:47:41Okay. That's a, that's one thing that has been a huge issue. I am concerned a little bit about the, uh, the vouching process. Um, so you mentioned that only eligible voters can register, um, when someone vouches for them. Is there a way of you qualifying their eligibility at that point? >> uh, just to clarify, representative, are you talking about the person doing the vouching or the person who's vouched for both?
▶ 0:48:12>> okay. I assume that you're the person vouching has already has to be an eligible registered voter, right? That's right. Do you have a process to, uh, ensure that the ones they're voting, they're vouching for are eligible? >> yes. Representative. Yes, that's that's that's all at the local level. Logged. Basically, the person signs an oath. There's a log in place for the person or people that they're vouched for.
▶ 0:48:36And then after the election, that enables the folks at the county level, at the local level to do that spot checking to make sure that. Their eligible. >> passes between them, verifying. >> um. >> uh, you know, days, maybe a couple of weeks. It depends. It depends on the county. >> so are they the, the ballot that the voter's that were vouched for, are they provisional ballots? >> no, because we're nvra exempt. We don't do provisional ballots in minnesota.
▶ 0:49:05>> so if you find out that, uh, they weren't registered voters, their voters, their vote still counts. >> uh, theoretically, that would be the case. >> do you not see that? That's a potential problem? >> well, I think it's a balance in that vouching is only for residency. So as to the two things you need to show to prove to register to vote in minnesota, you are who you say you are and you live where you say you live. It's still on the voter to prove that they are who they say they are through id, through all sorts of things.
▶ 0:49:33There's a long list that we allow. It's only the live where you say you live part. So it's. So for example, it might be possible that someone is an eligible voter there, a citizen there 18 all the rest, but they don't live where they say they live. They voted in the wrong place. That's certainly possible. But vouching only pertains to residency. No one is vouching for someone's citizenship, age or anything else. >> even if there may be a felon. >> they're not vouching for that either. >> okay. >> I'm out of time, I yield back. The gentleman. >> yields back.
▶ 0:50:00Uh, representative torres is recognized for five minutes. >> uh, thank you, chairman. Congratulations to you and your bride. I, too, have been married 40 years, so we're happy to give you some insight information as to how to keep the marriage strong. Um, I want to say thank you to you, Mr. schwab. Thank you. Um, also to you, Mr.
▶ 0:50:28Simon, for being here today. But most of all, I want to say thank you so much, um, to all of the people that work with you to hold free and fair elections in your states. It is in the best of times, a thankless job. These are not the best of times.
▶ 0:50:47This week, propublica published a horrifying investigation detailing how president trump is openly working to, in his words, take over the 2026 midterms with loyalists placed throughout the government to do it. Those are not my words. Those are the president's words. What does this look like in real life?
▶ 0:51:14Uh, trump already fired every election security expert at cisa. Um, the very people whose job it was to protect our elections from foreign interference at a time of war, instead of focusing on terrorism and defending the homeland, trump is having our intelligence agencies, the fbi, running around, raiding election offices and chasing
▶ 0:51:45Crazy conspiracy theories about the 2020 election. Georgia's fulton county, who the fbi raided, is now unable to verify if trump's cleanup crew has altered any of the ballots that they stole. The department of justice has been demanding states turn over their sensitive voter information for almost a year now, and I just can't get over what happened in minnesota.
▶ 0:52:15Border patrol and ice agents murdered renee good. And after killing alex peretti on the streets of minneapolis, former attorney general bondi used his death as leverage to gain demand over minnesota's voter rolls. Thank you for standing tall on that.
▶ 0:52:36The court stopped them, but this administration attempted to use a murder of an american citizen to bully you into handing over voter data. On march 31st, trump signed an executive order that attempts to bypass the constitution to nationalize our elections.
▶ 0:52:57Trump is ordering the department of homeland security to create federal approved voter lists and turning our local post office into partizan hack filters for mail in ballots. The hypocrisy in this committee, the hypocrisy wage in front of us is staggering. The president has already voted by mail twice this year. He knows it's safe. He just doesn't want you to use your vote in dissent.
▶ 0:53:27My question to both of you is, are you preparing for possible federal executive overreach? I don't need you to go into detail, just yes or no. >> yes, yes. >> um, I'm focused more on making sure list maintenance is right. I mean. >> it's a reality though. Federal overreach is a reality. So I hope that you will focus some time on top of everything that you are dealing with.
▶ 0:53:57Um, because it is a real threat that the president has already executed, uh, an executive order that this committee chairman has been leading also bills, uh, to cancel people's votes who do not support their policies. We need every american to go to the polls and use their voice and vote to decide the next chapter of our country.
▶ 0:54:23The american people need both of you need all of our, um, register of voters, secretaries of state. We need you in the front lines of this fight.
▶ 0:54:35They need our voters need to know that when they walk into their polling place, their school gyms, their community centers, their neighbors, their neighborhood library, that their vote will be cast freely, counted honestly, and that no federal anti-voting extremists decided in advance whether they were allowed to participate. That is the promise of this democracy, and we need you to keep it.
▶ 0:55:03So with that, I'm going to yield back. >> the gentleman yields back. The gentleman from virginia, Mr. griffith, is recognized for five minutes. Well, Mr. chairman. >> let me just say, first off, I've read all the bills that you're sponsoring, and I know that if you read the bills, there is no attempt to invalidate any legitimate votes by american citizens in this country.
▶ 0:55:29And I have supported those bills because they don't do that. If they were trying to take away the votes of people who didn't agree with my policies, I would be absolutely opposed to that, because that is a violation of the principles of a democratic run, a democratically run republic. Uh, and I appreciate your efforts. Thank you. Now moving on, let me just talk about vote by mail for a minute. Uh, I have never voted by mail. I will never vote by mail.
▶ 0:55:57I think there are all kinds of problems with vote by mail. And I know that I've heard people saying this, that and the other. Uh, but here's the concern I have. Sometimes you're going to have people who do bad things. Sometimes you have people who may think they're doing the right thing and violate the law and vote by mail. You can't figure that out sometimes. And I'm going to give you the example of vote by mail, and I'm going to talk about another one. God rest her soul.
▶ 0:56:27My mother lived to be 92 for the last 30, 40 years of her life. She lived with my sister. I trust my sister. My mother had her competency till the day she. Well, about three days before she passed away she went comatose. But until. When she was casting a vote, it was her casting it. Whether it was in person or otherwise. But in a lot of households, you have an elderly family member.
▶ 0:56:52They receive a ballot in the mail, son or daughter or caretaker is very likely, even if they think, well, I know that mom was of this political party or another. They're not supposed to be voting if she's not competent and can't cast that vote herself, and yet, can either one of you tell me that you're not at least aware that's a possibility with mail in votes?
▶ 0:57:23Mr. simon? >> uh, representative, anything's possible. >> I understand, and and and Mr. schwab. >> I'd say the way kansas has signature verification and voter id ahead of that mail ballot, it really limits that from happening in our states. I think signature verification is key to preventing exactly what you're saying. Well. >> and let me just say this, I, I get what you're saying, but my wife copies my signature every day because I'm not there.
▶ 0:57:55Now, I've given her a power of attorney so she can do it. And she has my permission, and my sister can do an exact replica to this day of my mother's signature. How are you going to do signature verification? You don't have. She's not she's not doing pen lifts or any of the things you would normally look for in a fraudulent document. How are you going to how are you going to verify that. >> uh, cheaters are going to cheat, mistakes are going to happen, but I don't know of any way. Our job is to. >> try to keep the cheaters from being able to cheat.
▶ 0:58:25And in the cheat, and in the case of my family member, our job is to make it clear you're not supposed to be doing that as a favor to mom. And and that creates a problem. And then I've got this other problem. And, and, Mr. simon, it deals with your situation in the in the gentleman who voted illegally.
▶ 0:58:43And you said, well, he made some statements that weren't accurate because he got a statement that said in it that, you know, you're not supposed to vote unless you're a us citizen, but we're sending these statements out to people or having people look at these things. Because when you do motor voter and you sign up for a driver's license and you get the application or you do it right there, we have a lot of people coming into this country. God bless them. The ones who are coming in legally still don't necessarily have a full command of the english language.
▶ 0:59:10So if you have that document being checked off in the english language, they I submit to you. They, quite frankly, in many cases may not realize what they've checked or what they've signed. And then they get a voter registration card in the mail and they're told on. I mean, look, I've run lots of ads and they're told to go vote.
▶ 0:59:35And I think when you don't do citizenship verification, you are causing people to perhaps be inadvertent or accidental felons. And as a recovering criminal defense attorney, I hate it when the law sets people up to make felonious mistakes. And I think that's what the laws that don't have citizenship checked do.
▶ 0:59:57They set it up for people who can't read or write english well to commit felonies without actually creating the mens rea to do so? And that's why I support a lot of the legislation that is intended to make sure only us citizens get to vote. And with that, Mr. chairman, I yield back. >> the gentleman yields back. The representative from texas, representative johnson, is recognized for five minutes. >> thank you, Mr. chairman.
▶ 1:00:25Um, gentlemen, thank you so much for being here. And, uh, secretary schwab, as a person who's born in kansas, it's a pleasure to have you here. Um, I'd like to have just use my time to address a little bit of a different topic, which is voter notification of poll changes and poll place locations.
▶ 1:00:49And I'd like to highlight for this committee a situation that happened in dallas in our recent primary, because I think it's very important that we pay attention to this. And I would love to, and I welcome you all to join on my bill, the vote act. And, Mr. chairman, I hope that we could give this this committee can give it consideration. And what the bill does is it requires when poll locations are going to be changed, that voters be notified, they'll be notified where to vote.
▶ 1:01:14Uh, because what happened in dallas is we have gone in from precinct only location to countywide vote centers, and we've gone back and forth. And the problem is, when I first ran for office in 2018, we were at precinct only locations on election day, and then we went to vote centers, which has been great. Everybody could vote anywhere in dallas county, and we've been doing that for some time.
▶ 1:01:42And then right before the primary, um, we switched for precinct only locations. So what happened is if you're a voter, let's say in from grand prairie, which is a city in dallas county, um, you had an election on january 31st, uh, where you voted and vote centers. Then our primary started. And then for two weeks of the primary, you could vote in a vote center. But then on election day, you could only vote in a precinct and at different times, and no notifications were provided to the voters of where to vote.
▶ 1:02:13And as a result, we had mass chaos, massive numbers of voters being turned away and unable to vote. And these are citizens. These are eligible voters who should have a right to cast their ballot. Over 30,000 voters in dallas county were turned away to vote, uh, from when they presented to vote because they were not notified of the right vote center.
▶ 1:02:37And then the secretary of state had, um, a platform for voters. If you check in to vote to say, this is not your location, you go to this location. But none of those were correct. They would send voters to multiple locations, um, to vote, and they still were not able to cast their vote. And we had a field hearing. Ranking member morelli came to dallas this past week, and we had a hearing on this very issue.
▶ 1:03:06And we heard stories of a woman, for example, was on crutches, and she was told to go to three different polling locations and was ultimately denied her right to vote because she got to the last one after the polls closed at 7 p.m. To me, that's unacceptable in this country.
▶ 1:03:25That is making, uh, this is where eligible voters, we should have a system where they should be able, if you're going to change the rules and change where people vote, we should tell them where they should be able to go vote, and that our bill is very simple and would have clearly addressed this. You know, the other problem that was happened because there was so much confusion, um, the courts got involved and extended the voting hours because there was all these people in line and people cast a provisional ballot.
▶ 1:03:54Over 2000 people's ballots were ultimately thrown out and their ballots did not count. And that should be something should be of paramount concern to this committee. When you are an eligible voter and you cast your ballot pursuant to the rules that were provided to you at the time, and then they change those rules such that your ballot was thrown out, that is unacceptable, and that is alarming to me.
▶ 1:04:18So my question to you, gentlemen, is, do you think it would be helpful for us to have a federal rule that says, you know what, you as secretaries of state, you should require notice to the voters of where they should be able to vote. >> representative. I, I would agree with that in principle. And I'll just note in minnesota, fortunately, we have a law in place that says all polling places must be fixed and determined by december 31st in the prior year.
▶ 1:04:46So to anyone who today might approach me in minnesota saying, well, I'd really love the polling place in our community, be changed, I would say you've missed the deadline. It was last december 31st, so that's our law. >> I would say, don't make the secretaries do it. It's the county because they're the closest to the people. Um, we haven't had that issue. Um, it personally, I get nervous if there's one state with an issue that every state now has a new federal law.
▶ 1:05:14So, um, you might want to tie that to the hava grants. If they want hava money, then you must do x, y, or z because the states that are already doing it and doing it well, I don't want you to change what we do putting it on us when right now it's our counties that do it. And so I just continue to work with election officials to see what works, where they're at. Um, but I think if you're tied to the hava grant that they want, then you say, well, then you're now compelled to do this. >> thank you so much. I'm out of time. >> the gentleman yields back.
▶ 1:05:45The representative from oklahoma, representative bice is recognized for five minutes. >> thank you, Mr. chairman and ranking member. And thank you to the witnesses for being with us this morning. Let me start by just sharing. I served in the oklahoma state senate for six years and had the pleasure of overseeing oklahoma's election board. You probably know Mr. chirac's, um, and I think oklahoma does elections right for a lot of reasons. We are not a state that takes days or weeks to determine elections. We are actually typically that night elections are decided.
▶ 1:06:14So I feel very confident in the process. Um, can you talk a little bit about your mail in ballot or absentee ballot process in each of your states? And I'll start Mr. schwab with you. >> yeah, we have no excuse mail ballots, but you do have to apply still. So I, when I was in 2022, when I was up for reelection, and this may sound long, but this is the process is can you print your own ballot to be mailed in? No, because you don't know the paperweight.
▶ 1:06:44You don't know the barcode or whether there's a watermark. So if you put it in a drop box, it ain't going to get counted. Well, what if you found an envelope and could steal a ballot and do it? Well, then it's not in the envelope. Well, now you got to steal the envelopes. Well, now I put the envelope in. Does it count? No, because it doesn't have a voter's name on it. Okay, well, what if I put a voter's name on it? No, it doesn't count because they never asked for that ballot. Okay, so now I get through all those things and finally put it in the dropbox.
▶ 1:07:14Does it count? No, because you didn't use your driver's license number. And I don't even know my driver's license number. So those are all the processes we put in to make sure mail ballots are secured. I will say I hate calling mail ballots because people actually mail them. And in most rural communities, I'm sure you experience this in oklahoma. The county courthouse is right across the street from the post office. Don't put it in the blue box. Put it in the red, white and blue box. That way it stays in state. >> got it. Do you require, um, voter identification to come in with your absentee ballot or a signature verification?
▶ 1:07:43>> we do signature verification on the ballot, voter id on the application. >> okay. Um, and Mr. simon, your process. >> thank you. Representative. I'm glad that secretary schwab said what he did about mailing and not everyone mails it in. You don't have. Just because you received it by mail doesn't mean you have to return it. >> sorry for the incorrect moniker. Uh, absentee ballot I suppose is more accurate.
▶ 1:08:08>> but in minnesota, in short, when someone orders the ballot, they don't just order the ballot, they have to provide one or both of a driver's license number and a partial social security number. We're increasingly recommending for a lot of reasons that people do both. Then when they get the ballot after voting, they have. >> wait, can I ask you, can I pause for a second? You said a, um, a driver's license number and a social security number, but you can obtain a driver's license. Being a non-citizen, is that accurate? >> true. >> okay. >> keep going. Right. Then.
▶ 1:08:36Uh, once the voter votes the ballot, they have to sign, so does that signature verification piece. And we have a witness requirement in minnesota. So someone who is eligible to vote in minnesota also has to sign that ballot. So when it goes back, there's really three layers of protection. It's the personal identifying information. It's the signature of the voter and it's the signature of a witness. So we're a little bit unique in that way. >> how do you verify the signature of a witness? >> well it depends on the county. It depends on the signatures on file and the like.
▶ 1:09:08And that is used as a backup. And that counties are feel for pursuit. Feel free to pursue. And sometimes they do. It just depends on the circumstance. >> do they have to include additional information on that ballot as to who they are? Any sort of verification of the witness. >> the signature. >> is the primary means. >> so there's no other identifying information on that. >> no, they don't have to put a social security number or driver's license. >> no. Mr.
▶ 1:09:34Simon, do you sign your, uh, signature the same way today that you did ten years ago? >> I'd like to think so. Others are a better judge, but I'm not sure. I mean, I hope mostly, yes, but I see where you're going. Scott peters can change. >> mine's got significantly worse the longer I've been in congress.
▶ 1:09:54I think the point being that in oklahoma, we actually have, uh, we had an issue in 2020 where, uh, the way that our absentee ballot process was laid out was challenged in court. And we, the reason that the process, uh, exists in oklahoma, it is a notary requirement was because there was fraud in the 60s. And so we wanted to make sure that that was never an issue. Well, it was challenged in court in 2020 because of covid.
▶ 1:10:23And so we decided that, you know, what, if there's a health emergency, a national health emergency, and a declaration by the governor, you can include a photocopy of your valid driver's license. Um, which, by the way, has your signature on it, uh, as proof of identification for an absentee ballot, which is why I think that, that this is such an important piece of the process. I have concerns with signature verification. I know states use it, but I really think that voter id is the way to go.
▶ 1:10:48And I hope that we would look at opportunities to do that, not only for in-person but also for absentee ballot. Mr. chairman, with that, I yield. >> the gentleman yields back. The representative from ohio, Mr. carey, is recognized for five minutes. >> I want to thank the chairman.
▶ 1:11:04I want to thank the ranking member as we approach this year's, uh, state primaries in the upcoming general elections, uh, ensuring the security and integrity of our voting process remains an issue of critical importance, not just to me, but I think everybody on this committee, this committee has consistently prioritized election security, focusing on the measures, measures such as voter id requirements and the maintenance that occur for those records.
▶ 1:11:28I'm particularly, uh, in particular, we have we I am an original co-sponsor of hr 7300, which directly addresses these concerns. The bill proposes sensible reforms to the federal elections, including mandatory photo identification, citizenship verification, use of paper ballots, ballots, and the regular voter list updates to ensure our voter eligible voters participate. In ohio, which is my home state.
▶ 1:11:56I want to also thank secretary frank larose. I think you both know him. Uh, also want to welcome him back. He was on deployment. They did not say where he was going. Uh, nor did they say where he was. But, uh, I've seen the, the pictures on social media and it's great to have him back in our home state, but he has set a strong example in the election integrity efforts, along with states like kansas, thanks to leaders such as you, Mr.
▶ 1:12:25Schwab, uh, ohio election administration approach includes both a photo id requirement, a routine list maintenance to safeguard voter eligibility and election security, which is incredibly similar to the efforts in kansas. So, um, secretary schwab, kansas enacted id voter requirements in 2012. I'm going to ask you a few questions and I apologize.
▶ 1:12:51I was on the second most important committee, uh, just a few minutes ago, which would be the ways and means committee. And we had rfk testifying, which is the reason I'm eating my wholesome snacks as that's what it says anyway. Um, but secretary, as far as you are aware, has the voter id requirement been a barrier at all to voting? >> no.
▶ 1:13:12And the only barrier there was, uh, we had to provide a free id, so we have someone sign an affidavit saying I can't afford an id and the county will issue them. And that's how it became a bipartisan bill. Even my democrat, current democrat governor was a state senator there and supported it. So let's talk about it. >> how much would one of these voter ids cost an individual? >> I it's it's pretty inexpensive. So you're saying I've never had a county complain that they've had to. >> so the individual doesn't pay anything.
▶ 1:13:40>> if they've signed an affidavit saying they can't afford it. >> they get it free. So they don't have to pay anything. Correct. And our id just says it has to be government issued. Have your name, your picture. >> so this really seems difficult. All they gotta do is sign, say they can't afford it and they get a free id, correct. Okay. I just want to make sure of that because a lot of lot of confusion on that issue, as I'm sure you are well aware, have election administrations in kansas, in kansas, faced with any burdens implementing the new voter id requirement, any problems with it?
▶ 1:14:09>> it just changes what we've been doing since 2011. Um, I like the idea that it's government issued and doesn't have to have an expiration date on it. It has their face and it has their name by putting more restrictions on it, then that could increase the cost of some of those. >> does it have their signature on it as well or. >> no, that's not. >> just their face. >> it's just their face. And so when you go to vote and 99.9% of the time it's a driver's license.
▶ 1:14:36>> so I'm anecdotally I mean, would you say that this voter id requirement has kind of bolstered, uh, the confidence in the election process? >> can can I share a story with you? >> you got one minute and 17 seconds. Make it a lot less than that. >> all right, so I got that when I was in committee. When we were doing this, I was the chair of the committee at the time. Um, we had a gentleman come and say, I only vote in presidential election years, but my sister is running for school board. So I've been asked to vote in election.
▶ 1:15:03So after work, I went to vote and found out I had already voted and asked if they ever showed their id. They said no, it's against the law to ask for an id at the time in kansas, he said. So I talked to my state representative and he went back as our voting records public. He found out he had been voting in school board elections for ten years. Okay. Um, that's really what tipped the scale that we had the minority party support, voter id because it was just it was too important. >> um, let me just ask you this, and I'm running out of time here, but simple.
▶ 1:15:32Yes or no, I answer, should we enact a voter id requirement for federal elections? >> I'm going to say yes. >> you're going to say yes. Uh, if more states had voter id laws, would that booster public confidence in our elections? 13 seconds yes or no? >> I say it has already for our state. Um, I think most people are concerned about their state and they're not concerned. Kansans aren't worried about minnesota. They're not there. They're worried about kansas.
▶ 1:16:03>> and I appreciate that, Mr. chairman. With that, I yield back. >> the gentleman yields back. Uh, the representative from illinois, representative miller is recognized for five minutes. >> thank you, Mr. chairman, for holding this important hearing. And to the witnesses that are here, secretary simon, uh, what steps has minnesota taken to minimize opportunities for illegal voting by non-citizens? >> thank you. Representative.
▶ 1:16:30Um, we are very proud of the process that that we have in place for filtering and screening and vetting noncitizens and anyone who's eligible to vote. Um, I think we all share that goal. So as I said in my introductory remarks, this is a perpetual process. This isn't something that we just do once a year or even once a month, depending on the data set. It is sometimes daily that we are vetting and screening for exactly this kind of thing. So we're proud of that system, and I think it's withstood the test of time. >> can you be more specific on what you're doing?
▶ 1:17:01>> sure. Well, as I mentioned, uh, I'll give you some of the specific databases. So we screen every single one of our millions of voters regularly against things like court records, driver's license records, uh, public safety information, conviction information, and the like. Those are the databases. >> has your office recommended any cases of noncitizen voting to the minnesota attorney general or local prosecutors for investigation and prosecution? >> yes. >> and how many. >> I we can get you that information. I don't know, but we are bound by law to do that.
▶ 1:17:33So. And we do. >> okay. Um, minnesota's drivers and vehicle services, quote, does not ask if or track whether a person is undocumented when they apply for a standard license or id card, which is very similar in my home state of illinois. If they don't ask for or verify citizenship status, then how do you know whether or not a citizen, a non-citizen, has cast a ballot?
▶ 1:18:01>> well, I would just to zoom out just a little bit. Um, it's not new in minnesota. And I gather elsewhere to provide driver's licenses for non-citizens that's been going on for 100 years. My own mother was driving around for decades and was not a citizen. >> when your mom got it, was there anything on that id that would differentiate her as being a non-citizen? >> I don't know, because it would have been in the 60s. I just don't know.
▶ 1:18:27>> but today, that driver's license, there's nothing on it that would identify the person as a non-citizen. >> that's true. >> so it's it's a moot point. Well driver's license. >> yeah. That point. Right. There's no distinguishing. That's true. >> so then how do you know whether a non-citizen has cast a ballot using that? >> well, a driver's license in minnesota, and I gather everywhere else is not proof of citizenship.
▶ 1:18:53So it's not a document anyway that someone would use to show citizenship one way or another. And so, as in almost every other state, the person attests that they're a us citizen a couple different times when they register and when they vote. >> right?
▶ 1:19:06Which is why on a federal level and president trump is trying to, you know, give us a database, which, um, during the october 14th, 2025 hearing before the minnesota house of representatives committee on fraud prevention and state agency oversight policy, your elections director paul linhl testified, quote, there is not a state level or federal level database to run against for citizenship purposes.
▶ 1:19:34July 28th, 2025 the white house invited all state chief election officials to a briefing on the systemic alien verification for entitlements. The save program, which checks against multiple federal databases for citizenship, verification of registered voters.
▶ 1:19:54Over a dozen secretaries of state, republican and democrat attended this briefing, hosted by the us citizenship and immigration services were in attendance. Were you in attendance? >> I don't know if that's the one I was or not. I was at a white house. I don't know whether it was july. It was hot out, I remember that, but I was at I was at a bipartisan meeting of secretaries invited by the white house.
▶ 1:20:18I can't recall whether it was that one or it was in may or june, or I can't recall, but I did attend one. Yes. >> are you accessing this fantastic database? >> representative? We are not. We have come to the judgment that it is not yet ready for use in minnesota and would require our legislature to change our law. >> okay, that's really too bad because it would be helpful. And I do want to remind everybody that under joe biden, the border was open. We allowed unvetted, um, people to come over the border.
▶ 1:20:47Um, you know, people that would not be eligible to have come over, pour over our border, um, up to possibly 20 million people. Why, why would joe biden, mayorkas and the democrats have allowed this? It is about votes and the american people, republicans and democrats support the save america act.
▶ 1:21:07The mega act is a great piece of legislation to ensure that only eligible voters are voting in our elections, and that non-citizens are not voting, and we need to access. I think it would be extremely helpful and give people confidence to know that you are accessing everything available, including this database that president trump has made available to ensure that non-citizens are not voting. And with that, I yield back. >> the gentleman yields back. That concludes our questions for the witnesses.
▶ 1:21:37I want to thank our witnesses for appearing before us today. Members of this committee may have some additional questions. We please ask that you respond to those questions in writing. Without objection, each member will have five legislative days to insert additional materials into the record or revise and extend their remarks. Uh, there being no further business, I thank the members for their participation. Without objection, the committee stands adjourned.