▶ 0:41:26Good afternoon. This subcommittee will come to order. I want to thank everyone for being here today to discuss the Veterans Readiness and Employment Programs VR&E. And the purpose of this program is to assist veterans who have service connected disabilities with the training and skills they need in order to obtain meaningful employment or live fully independent lives. Um I know that this sounds so funny. I know that the doors of this program can open for veterans and their families that they otherwise may not have access to.
▶ 0:41:54So, this program allows other programs or veterans to have access to them. It's a fantastic benefit, but that doesn't mean that we can give or are going to give you guys a blank check for Uh today we're going to examine the potential waste, fraud, and abuse that continues to occur with this multi-billion dollar VA program. This is directly in line with the Trump administration pointing uh Vice President J.D. Vance uh to take care of other things in the executive branch, and we look forward to working hand-in-hand with you guys. Here's a couple examples.
▶ 0:42:22The VA has approved purchase $31,000 for three custom raised flower beds for a veteran to learn how to live independently. Uh I've having lived independently for a very long period of time, I never saw the necessity for a raised flower bed. The average market price for a flower bed is between $1,100 to $3,175. And uh $917,000 for initial evaluation and case management.
▶ 0:42:47That's where we got to talk about what does this evaluation and case management mean, and how can we be spending just under a a million dollars uh for that for an individual veteran. The federal government's having to pay over market prices on many items that are meant to help veterans find and maintain gainful employment. This is not a fiscally responsible This is not fiscally responsible and shows that more guardrails and justifications are needed to approve these purchases.
▶ 0:43:13The issue here is that these purchases were made without employment metrics or outcomes, and this is due to the VR&E program sliding under the radar. If VA were to provide information that shows how these purchases resulted in veteran employment, then I'm all for it. As student veterans should be provided with all the necessary items they need for self-employment, economic opportunity, and for their academic betterment. Uh however, we have to ensure that the taxpayers are also protected as the cost for this program continue to skyrocket.
▶ 0:43:41And one individual, this is crazy, one individual has spent over $800,000 in less than 3 years and over $300,000 in 1 year. That is one veteran. This is an absurd amount of money that goes against the intent of the VR&E program. And my legislation would help cap the amount of money that can be spent annually on supplies for VR&E enrollees. This issue here is that we do not know the outcomes and more oversight is needed.
▶ 0:44:07VA projects or projects the program to cost double over the next 2 fiscal years. We need to make sure that this program works for the veteran and it is not a blank check to continuously stay in a program and not reach the ultimate goal of program that the meaning of the program, sorry, which is employment. Under current law, there's no cap on the number of times you can enter the program. We've seen several individuals who have been in this program for over two decades.
▶ 0:44:33We have several individuals who've been involved in VR&E for over two decades. If disabled veterans are truly in need, they can and should We can and should help them, but I think we also agree that a training program that continues for 20 years is not meeting the needs of the veteran or the taxpayer. We must examine VA's path forward in VR&E to ensure that there are checks and balances in the program to safeguard the integrity of this benefit. And I look forward to hearing from you guys from the VA.
▶ 0:45:00I also will mention that Ranking Member Pappas, my friend, and I've discussed this, and I think that we have common accord. Both of us really want this program to work. We also understand that there's um we have to have measurable outcomes to make sure that we help the most amount of veterans as possible. And with that, I I do yield to my good friend Ranking Member Pappas.
▶ 0:45:17Well, thank you, Mr. Chairman. When veterans finish their service to our country, too many have difficulty figuring out what to pursue next, securing steady employment, or experience a variety of other issues adapting to civilian life. That's why the VR&E program was established to provide veterans with the resources and guidance to help navigate these obstacles and secure employment or even establish their own small business.
▶ 0:45:37Indeed, VR&E is one of the most effective services that VA provides during the critical transition period to help veterans land on their feet, which is why I feel it's necessary to emphasize how disingenuous I feel that the messaging and rationale behind this hearing is. From what I understand, this hearing was prompted by cherry-picking some of the highest cost items from various VA regional offices. My staff requested copies of these documents multiple times so we could understand what was going on and scrutinize the expenditures, but the majority refused to provide a copy.
▶ 0:46:05I think this is extremely frustrating since the entire discussion today was prompted and informed by these very documents. Nonetheless, we were able to track them down ourselves. These documents primarily show that VR&E is doing what it's supposed to do for veterans. Of course, like all government programs, it needs oversight and could be improved. The items purchased for veterans were in support of successful businesses. That means veterans created business plans, had them approved by a counselor, and then launched those small businesses.
▶ 0:46:31From the documents from VA, we've learned of additional examples of veterans receiving resources from VA to start a fishery business and a commercial printing business. And in both cases, VA's support actually exceeded any of the examples raised by the majority in the title, but weren't included in the provocative hearing title itself. Encouraging veterans to believe in themselves, become entrepreneurs, and build a life where their service is complete is exactly what this program is designed to do.
▶ 0:46:55And by the way, the businesses the majority has focused on, they're still successful today, providing jobs and contributing to local economies across the country. To point to these purchases through some sort of DOJ lens is completely out of context and does a disservice to the constructive ways that we should be examining and improving VR&E. I'm interested in helping in hearing more from VA about their process and controls to ensure the integrity of this program.
▶ 0:47:20But we shouldn't be targeting a successful program because it's doing what it's supposed to do, supporting veterans who develop a successful business model approved by both VA and SBA, and need support to build upon their success. The highest spending item, in fact, was contracting out for VR&E services. So, that's what we should be discussing if we want to talk about ways that we can reduce spending, improve oversight, and improve VR&E effectiveness for veterans.
▶ 0:47:43VA is still feeling the effects of President Trump and Elon Musk staff cuts, and now is being forced to contract out to provide veterans with their earned benefits. That means our veterans are receiving inferior services that are costing Americans more. And when doctors prescribe a major purchase for a veteran, VR&E counselors are asked to approve or deny whether or not that purchase is appropriate. In the past, that meant a careful review of the recommendation from a doctor, a review of the veteran's situation, and an assessment of the appropriate ness of such a purchase.
▶ 0:48:11With the caseloads now at about 200 cases per counselor and staffing in the agency reeling from DOJ cuts, counselors are simply making the best decisions they can given limited time and resources. So, we should take a serious look at what can be done to improve this program, how we can better support VR&E staff and its mission. This includes properly staffing the agency so it has the staff necessary to properly conduct oversight and reviews of spending, and that we don't have to spend millions of dollars on overpriced contractors. That this That is the hearing that I believe we should be having.
▶ 0:48:41This committee claims to be looking for answers as to why VR&E is experiencing delays, and I think it's simple. The program isn't staffed appropriately. And with the counselors overworked and aging out of the workforce, we're facing a major staffing cliff at VR&E if we don't act fast. So, I look forward to hearing from VA and our witnesses and our witness from PVA today because oversight of VR&E is important, it's needed, and it's up to this Congress to provide the agency with the resources it needs to do its job. I yield back. The gentleman yields back. I'll now introduce our witness panel.
▶ 0:49:11Our first witness is Ms. Margarita Del Devin Devlin, sorry, Margarita. Principal Deputy Under Secretary for Benefits, Veterans Benefits Administration at the Department of Veterans Affairs. Accompanying Ms. Devlin is Ms. Shantel Stouwall, Acting Executive Director, Veterans Readiness and Employment Service, Veterans Benefits Administration at the Department of Veterans Affairs. Our third witness is Ms. Julia Howell, Associate Legislative Director at Paralyzed Veterans of America. Thank you very much for coming. Please stand and raise your right hand.
▶ 0:49:43Where is it? We don't have That's right. Do you solemnly swear that the testimony you're about to provide is the whole and nothing but the truth? Thank you. Let the record reflect that the witness has answered the witnesses have answered in the affirmative. Ms. Devlin, you are now recognized for 5 minutes to deliver your your testimony on behalf of the Department of Veterans Good afternoon, Chairman Van Orden and Ranking Member Pappas. It's good to see you both again and distinguished members of the subcommittee.
▶ 0:50:11Thank you for the opportunity to testify this hearing titled Bounce Houses, Drones, and Massage Chairs: A Review of VA's Purchase History in the Veteran Readiness and Employment Program. Joining me today from the Veterans Benefits Administration is Ms. Shantille Stovall, Acting Executive Director of VR&E Service.
▶ 0:50:28The VR&E program plays a vital role in helping veterans overcome service-connected disabilities so they can achieve meaningful career goals or when employment is not feasible, attain greater independence in their daily The purchases that may appear unconventional at first glance represent real veterans who through tailored rehabilitation plans have built successful businesses, secured long-term employment, or achieved essential independence in their homes and in their Congress establishes the statutory
▶ 0:50:59authorities under which the VR&E program and VA implements those authorities as written. The purchases referenced in the title of this hearing were made within that framework in direct support of approved rehabilitation plans designed to meet the individualized needs of the veterans we serve. Each decision reflects a balance between responsible stewardship of taxpayer dollars and providing veterans the best opportunity for their success.
▶ 0:51:26VA remains fully committed to strengthening the VR&E program through rigorous financial oversight, robust internal controls, and modernization efforts that enhance service to veterans and accountability to taxpayers and If Congress chooses to amend these authorities or redefine the program's parameters, VA will fully and faithfully implement those changes.
▶ 0:51:48We stand ready to provide technical assistance as you consider any potential updates to ensure the program remains strong, accountable, and aligned with your intent. Ms. Stovall and I are prepared to answer your questions. Thank you very much for inviting us. Thank you, Ms. Devlin. The written statement of Ms. Devlin will be entered into the hearing record. Ms.
▶ 0:52:06Hall, you're now recognized for 5 minutes for 2 and 1/2 minutes to 5 minutes to deliver your testimony on behalf of the Department of Veterans Chairman Van Orden, Ranking Member Pappas, and members of the subcommittee, PVA appreciates the opportunity to share our views on the Veteran Readiness and Employment Program or VR&E. Excuse me. VR&E assists disabled veterans in finding meaningful and lasting employment despite incurring disabilities or illnesses due to their military service.
▶ 0:52:33The services and supports available to veterans with catastrophic disabilities through VR&E are critical to ensuring their successful employment outcomes and/or their independence. Although today's hearing is focused on purchase history within VR&E, our written testimony mainly highlights our broader concerns with the program. We chose this focus because PVA believes that strong management and oversight of the VR&E program are essential for the program's fiscal integrity and accuracy.
▶ 0:52:59I'll focus my oral remarks on three topics: a brief reminder of the mission of VR&E, some ongoing concerns that we have, and I'll close with a few suggestions that may help to improve delivery of this critical benefit. First, there seems to be a fundamental misunderstanding of what the VR&E program is supposed to do for veterans. All you have to do is look up VR&E on any social media platform to see that confusion abounds and answers are hard to find. At its core, VR&E is an employment program for disabled veterans.
▶ 0:53:28Most veterans believe that VR&E exists to help them return to school or address needs related to starting their own business, but many veterans don't understand the role of a vocational rehabilitation counselor or a VRC. A VRC is trained to help veterans find suitable, sustainable, and financially sufficient employment that will sustain them through their lives, not just for a few years after they've completed the It is imperative for stakeholders to understand that the expertise that comes with a master's in vocational rehabilitation directly
▶ 0:53:58relates to a veteran's viability and long-term employment outcomes. However, in this current environment, VRCs are expected to do the administrative work of authorizations, reimbursements, uploads, letters, dashboards, and tracking performance These are important functions, but they are not employment counseling. If these functions are a priority for VA, then VA should hire staff with business, accounting, or similar backgrounds to accomplish that work.
▶ 0:54:24Doing so would free up the time allowing a VRC to focus on the work of employment counseling, particularly for veterans with complex disabilities. While PVA is grateful for the opportunities we've been given to provide feedback on this essential program, there seems to be a disconnect between the VA, Congress, and the veteran community about the best ways to guarantee the sustainability of this important program, which brings me to my second point.
▶ 0:54:48For years, PVA and other VSOs have requested additional appropriations from Congress to meet the demands of the program that's facing exponentially increasing enrollment numbers. These requests have mostly gone unheard. Veterans still experience long wait times, struggle to contact their counselors, and VRCs are overburdened by administrative tasks.
▶ 0:55:08We fear that the VR&E program is experiencing a perfect storm of high case volume, understaffing, and an enormous amount of administrative Morale is low, demand is high, and VRCs are close to burning out. If something isn't done to address these issues, veterans will likely wait even longer to get into the program, enrolled veterans may experience delayed payments and other negative effects that could impact their long-term well-being. Finally, I'd like to offer a couple suggestions that we think could help in the delivery of benefits for VR&E participants.
▶ 0:55:38First, VR&E needs to hire additional staff. Recently, on a stakeholder engagement call, VR&E shared that they were undergoing a hiring blitz to help fill vacancies across the country. However, it's unclear from that conversation which positions VA is The VR&E program, again, should consider hiring additional support staff to help reduce the administrative burden that is falling heavy on the shoulders of Next, VR&E should create create national specialty teams for complex service tracks such as retroactive inductions,
▶ 0:56:08self-employment, and independent living. Additionally, VR&E should end mandatory VRCs are not a finite resource and PVA has concerns about the sustainability of this cadre in the face of increasing Without sufficient staffing across the country, veterans will continue to face barriers that impact their financial independence as well as their participation in the labor market. In closing, VR&E is an earned benefit intended to get veterans into suitable employment and the long-standing issues that have been voiced over the years continue.
▶ 0:56:39It is essential that we do everything we can to ensure the sustainability of the VR&E program. Thank you again for the invitation to testify and I welcome any questions you have. Thank you, Ms. Hall. The written statement of Ms. Hall will be entered into the hearing record. We're now going to proceed to questionings and they're going to call votes here in a little bit, so we're going to do 3 minutes uh per member and then if we have time, we'll go into a second round of question. I just don't want to stop hearing restart it again. So, with that said, uh I now recognize Ranking Member Pappas for 3 minutes. Thanks, Mr. Chairman.
▶ 0:57:08So, the President's budget was just released and it targets hiring 300 counselors next year to support the growing growing caseloads within VR&E. Um and so, Ms. Devlin, I wonder if I could ask you a few questions about this. If you could uh address the current caseload um within VR&E. Um yes, thank you for the question. Our current ratio is 1:199, which is the why we really need to get these counselors hired. And so, if the 300 are hired, um does that get us closer to the 1:125? Does it get us all the way there?
▶ 0:57:39It will get us closer, not all the way. And and can you address um what um Ms. Hall brought up in her testimony about the need for more support staff and how that could, you know, help balance the workload of VRCs? Thank you for the question. Uh I agree that VRCs should be spending more time counseling veterans and less time on administrative tasks.
▶ 0:58:00When we look at what uh lends itself to satisfaction with the program, what veterans will typically tell you is their relationship with their counselor is the most important part of their satisfaction, that connection, the ability to have the counselor fully invest in that veteran's success. Um the RES system that we're in the process of deploying will take a lot of that administrative burden off of the counselors while also administering more internal controls for fiscal How confident are you that this 300 target can be hit?
▶ 0:58:29Um do we have enough qualified applicants that will be out there for us to hire? And do you feel like uh the pay scale is competitive enough with the private sector? It's a great question. Yes, we're all we're about halfway there on our goal to hire these individuals. We We went out with a very aggressive recruitment strategy. We didn't just put, you know, job announcements on USAJOBS.
▶ 0:58:49We recruited through the Commission on Rehabilitation Counselor Certification, through LinkedIn, um through the colleges and universities that offer these training programs, and we got more applicants than ever and we are in the process of of filling all those vacancies. So, I'm wondering if you can address some of the expenditures um that we were taking a look at. 49,000 for fishing supplies, 46,000 on a UV printer for commercial for a commercial printing company.
▶ 0:59:13I understand that you can't get into the specifics of um these uh you know, veterans' cases, but I'm wondering if you can answer this. Are the veterans who received those resources currently um running small businesses with these supplies and have they been successful? Uh yes, I'll let Ms.
▶ 0:59:28Stovall address those specific cases, but we were um we did look into the cases that are the subject of the letter and I will tell you that it was really um heartwarming to hear the the stories told as told by these veterans of their self-employment success and the challenges that they had trying to find employment before they got to a VR&E counselor who helped them achieve their dream of having their own business, but I'll let Ms. Devlin address those specific cases.
▶ 0:59:51Yes, so thank you for the question and so with regard to the um fish hatchery supplies that was purchased, the 49,000 for that purchase, that is for a veteran that is participating in self-employment and they are successfully operating their business. In fact, they reported um earnings of 237,000 for um 2024. Um the veteran's still in the program right now.
▶ 1:00:18We do have a requirement to follow them for up to a year before we close the case to make sure that the uh program or the business is still viable and sustainable. Okay, I'm over my time, so I yield back. Gentleman yields, the chair now recognizes my friend from the great state of Kentucky, Mr. McGarvey. Thank you, Mr. Chairman. Thank you all for being here. This program is so important because our veterans are so important and the Veterans Readiness and Employment Program or a VR&E as we're calling it, this is something that veterans turn to when they're trying to rebuild their futures.
▶ 1:00:48They're looking for a path back to work, back to stability, back to independence. That's why every delay, every unclear message from VA, it has real-world, real-life consequences for these veterans and their families. Uh participation in VR&E has grown a lot in recent years because of the PACT Act. So I think this is a good thing. This is a positive development.
▶ 1:01:09But too many veterans are walking into a system right now that's overwhelmed and we got to make sure that these veterans, sometimes they're waiting months to talk to a counselor for the first time. In the most extreme cases, the wait has stretched past 5 months. That is not a small inconvenience. That's a veteran sitting at home. That's a veteran who's unable to start school. That's a veteran who is not back to work, who is not beginning training, who is not moving forward.
▶ 1:01:35Uh so what the veteran tells us and the vet and the data shows is that the real challenge here is access and communication. Veterans can't reach their counselors. Appointments are rushed. Some are told to complete forms on their own that are meant to be filled out with the help of a super uh trained professional. And when the process becomes really confusing, then the veterans, they lose time, they lose their benefits, they sometimes just give up altogether. I want to point out that is not the veteran's failure.
▶ 1:02:02That is a failure of the system that is supposed to be helping our veterans. So at the end of the day, this program, we know it works uh when the veterans can actually use it, when they can get an appointment, when they can understand the process, when they can trust that the VA is focused on them and their success. That's what today should be about. Are the veterans getting what they need to build their future or we letting political theater get in the Um Ms. Devlin, I'll start with you.
▶ 1:02:28You heard me mention that we've seen VR&E wait times stretch from a couple of weeks to more than 5 months in some areas. What is VA doing right now, not in 2027, not after another IT rollout, but right now to shorten those wait times for veterans who are stuck in Thank you for the question and and you're right, we were well on our way to reducing those wait times before the government shut down. Unfortunately, during those 43 days, we were unable to process any applications or conduct counseling appointments, but we're working through it.
▶ 1:02:56We want our veterans to get into programs as quickly as possible. We're doing many different things. One of the things we're doing in the process of hiring is while those vacancies exist in certain stations, we're making sure to sort of equalize the work by distributing it more equitably across where we have staffing capacity. Many of our veterans prefer the telecounseling appointments anyway, so really doesn't matter if your counselor is in Milwaukee or in San Diego, right? As long as you can get your appointment, get into a rehab plan and get started on your way.
▶ 1:03:24So that's helped us to control time and we're bringing that timeliness back down again. Thanks. It has to be brought down and and also it's not just the timeliness in the few seconds I've got left, it's communicating to the veteran what that is and then holding up your roles into the bargain.
▶ 1:03:38time has expired. I yield back. The gentleman yields and I recognize myself for 3 minutes. Um What's the educational requirement, Ms. Devlin, for a VA counselor? Master's level uh training in rehabilitation counseling, but we've recently expanded it to allow many other master's level degrees to count towards that requirement. Uh so we got something through the house, a bill that lowers that to a uh bachelor's degree requirement, which I I I went to VR&E myself personally.
▶ 1:04:08And uh you don't need a master's degree to be a counselor. Right after we got that passed, it was a couple weeks after they announced they're hiring these things in the president's budget, 300 new counselors. So I'd like 3,000 new counselors, but the education requirement is silly. That's an administrative uh restraint that the VA has put on itself. Uh what what's the average full employment rate from the last cycle for a veteran that goes through VR&E? I'm sorry, I don't understand the question.
▶ 1:04:34So uh the veterans that go through the VR&E program, what's the full employment rate from this last cycle? Um of the veterans that went through, so last year we had 10,527 actually be declared as a successful outcome. 55,301 entered a new rehabilitation plan during that year and 83,188 continued pursuing a formal previously developed plan. Where does the percentage 37 come into this? I'm not sure where that's coming from.
▶ 1:05:04That's if you look at the full employment rate. Um how many how many jobs have graduates, and I know this is not the intended purpose of this specifically, how many jobs have graduates of VR&E created? Like for instance, the fish hatchery, which by the way, that is not a lot of money for a fish hatchery. I'll be honest, we've got one in our district. I don't know uh how small that joint is, but so how many how many people does that person employ?
▶ 1:05:35Do we know? I'm not sure of that, sir. Okay, so these are the sorts of things that we need to start tracking because if we want to invest, you know, Mr. Pappas brings up this amount of money for this commercial printing thing. If we're if we're going to invest a million dollars into a veteran and they're hiring 50 people, that's a heck of a lot different than investing a million dollars into a veteran who is self-employed and not employing anybody else.
▶ 1:05:59So if we we look at this program more holistically and understand that we want our veterans to be radically successful. I want this to be very available to everybody, but when we're we're looking at these numbers, we need to we need to have more metrics of like what what's actually happen like what's the average of length of employment for a veteran following their case closing at VR&E?
▶ 1:06:23Uh so if you look at our longitudinal study, which has been following veterans for about 20 years, um their percentage of employment rate is 74%. For how long?
▶ 1:06:32Um well, the oldest um category that we're following is from 2010. Okay.
▶ 1:06:38So 16 years. So for the average amount of years that a person is employed
▶ 1:06:43Veterans who went through the program in 2010. Uh I'm going to respect my own rule. My time has expired. Uh we are going to go into a second round of uh questioning. I now recognize the ranking member for You know, you want to do 5 minutes? What Whatever you think.
▶ 1:06:57I now recognize the ranking member for 5 minutes. I think they're holding votes here. All right, thanks for your generosity, Mr. Chairman.
▶ 1:07:02She's talking about Um Ms. Devlin, uh I understand the request for VR&E resources are uh reviewed, they require approval. Could you talk a little bit more about uh the oversight and controls that are in place uh for these expenditures? Are there instances in which VA may decline a veteran's initial business model and even if the business model is approved, are there um declines in terms of request for resources? Um thank you for the question. Yes, we do have an an approval process with I which I can let Ms.
▶ 1:07:30Devlin talk about um and we we would potentially deny a program. We collaborate with the Small Business Administration also in helping to evaluate the feasibility of the program, but Ms. Devlin can speak to the internal controls we have. Yes, thank you. So we do have internal controls which start at the regional office, but there are um the plans that cost over $50,000 would come to me for review.
▶ 1:07:54Um during my time that I've been in this seat for the past 8 months, I have had the opportunity to review three of those plans. Um excuse me, five plans. Um and one has been approved, one has been denied and there are three others that are going through the process right now, but um when we look at those plans, we are looking for viability.
▶ 1:08:13We are looking to determine if um it is a feasible feasible vocational goal for the veteran or not um and if they've considered all the criteria like um can this veteran complete traditional employment or not before we jump to self-employment. So um on those bases are those are kind of what we look at. Also, if the uh business is already an existent business, that's not something that we would support under self-employment. Okay, I appreciate that.
▶ 1:08:41Um regarding the $15,000 that was spent on the massage chair, um I wonder if you have some additional context for that one. Does VA stand by the purchase and agree that it was needed? Yes, so the massage chair was purchased for a 100% service-connected disabled veteran um that suffered from some uh vascular as well as mental health conditions, PTSD or phobia.
▶ 1:09:05So we did consult with a um VHA medical well professional, occupational therapist who um approved the recommendation for that particular Um and I would just like to say when we're when we're it's an independent living case and so when we're looking at um what is appropriate for the veteran, I think we need to look at the whole person and so this is one of those cycle you know areas where we need to consider what is necessary
▶ 1:09:36for this veteran to be able to live independently in their community and by being able to relieve the stress and anxiety we were able to successfully rehab her where she could start to integrate into her community. Thank you for that. The documents provided on VR&E spending from VA also show incredibly high spending on contracting in fact the contracting dollars dwarf the actual spending on supplies for veterans.
▶ 1:10:01So I'm wondering if you can just tell us more about why VA is contracting to this degree spending millions of dollars on contracting within within VR&E. Yeah thank you for that question. So I've been in the VA for a long time and when I started as a as a counselor we had contracting back then. Contracting doesn't replace the need for a counselor. Contractors help support but they can't make decisions.
▶ 1:10:22So they can do the part of the process for example of assessing interest aptitudes abilities helping the veteran explore career opportunities developing some proposed avenues for the veteran to achieve those goals and then they turn that work into a counselor who meets with the veteran and makes the final decisions and then approves any purchases that might be required for that. We can also have contractors support case management to help make sure we're getting grades and and you know supporting the veteran through their training.
▶ 1:10:53The contracts used to be done at the regional office level when I started 31 years almost 31 years ago but ever since for many years now they've been centralized in central office so it's sort of one giant contract vehicle and then the regional offices issue task orders against them. That creates greater control greater accountability and better sort of fiscal responsibility because we can get better pricing that way.
▶ 1:11:18Miss Hal, I'm wondering if you can answer the question about whether you do whether VA was spending this amount of money on contracting and how you view Thank you for the question sir. Um I believe Miss Devlin spoke about contracting in her last testimony on VR&E so we didn't really know what that looked like or what it meant to people in the field.
▶ 1:11:39Um I think if VR&E if they're so overburdened by people coming into the program or existing cases that they need to spend this kind of money for contracting it begs the question like can we not just spend that money hiring additional staff with the understanding that there's going to be onboarding like you have just because you have that masters in rehabilitative counseling you still need to learn the VA systems. You still need everyone knows what it's like to be new at a job. You got to learn the way this stuff goes. Sorry.
▶ 1:12:07I don't know if I should keep talking or if he's going to I don't think he noticed but now he Gentleman stands yield back. Well no because I'm I'm looking at this stuff. Gentleman recognizes uh Mr. McGarvey from the great state of Let me go back with you. Um PVA has warned that VR&E is in a dangerous tipping point. That's a quote. You say this because they're high case loads because of the administrative burden that's going on there.
▶ 1:12:31From your perspective what is the single biggest barrier preventing veterans especially those with catastrophic disabilities from getting timely meaningful meaningful VR&E support? Thank you for the question sir. I think the thing that is most in the way for one of my members being able to successfully engage with the program is that thoughtful employment counseling which is what a VRC's job is.
▶ 1:12:57I think there's a a fundamental misunderstanding between the education level required for a VRC to do that employment counseling long term for a veteran with catastrophic disabilities. If we have a case like I am was a VR&E participant. The chairman was a VR&E participant.
▶ 1:13:13We are able bodied veterans that do not have the same level of complexities as someone who is a member of my If VRCs are spending their time doing all these administrative tasks and they're being pulled away from offering true employment counseling that does a disservice to our members.
▶ 1:13:30We've spoken to many VRCs over the years and we are hearing that you know we're trying to rate VRCs performance metrics by the same metrics that they are applying to claims raters and these are fundamentally different services and their delivery is completely different. If a VRC is spending time being thoughtful about the employment counseling they're delivering to veterans that's showing up in their metrics and they're getting pressure from their management to improve the metrics for leadership.
▶ 1:13:59So I do think it's a fine line between allowing them to do their job which again is rehabilitative counseling for complex disabilities and complex cases. A traditional education path may be someone without a bachelor's degree that's fine. They can handle those cases that were like the chairman's or mine that don't have those complexities but VRCs need to be allowed to offer thoughtful employment counseling for the veterans that need it. Thank you Miss Hal.
▶ 1:14:27Appreciate that and I'll just say for the veterans in the independent living the delays don't just slow down a career. They they affect the daily life of a veteran. And so what changes would make the biggest difference for those veterans right now? You talked about some of the problems but what changes would you make right now to make the biggest difference right now? Thank you for the question sir.
▶ 1:14:50Um I don't know that fixing independent living has there's an immediate solution to this but I do think that experienced VRCs who have been at this game a long time they can create a sort of tiger team to handle these more complex cases so that as we're onboarding these new VRCs that again are learning systems the experienced folks because independent living is from what I've been told a very complex thing to manage as a as a VRC.
▶ 1:15:16So if we allow a tiger team of some sort of experts who are well trained in processing all the paperwork needed for this understand the tracking mechanisms the consultations with VHA and occupational if we can create a team that understands that system and have them work on these cases I think that would have an impact. thank you. Thank you Mr. Chairman I yield back.
▶ 1:15:43The gentleman yields um I'm just listening and we're having great parallel discussions here because we're trying to process what's going through and it's great. Um so the RES system let's clear some clear the air a little bit here. So we have we have two different things here. You're asking for more um counselors which is why we lowered the educational threshold because I fundamentally disagree that you need a masters degree.
▶ 1:16:10So we can get with the the pool of potential applicants would be greater. That's great and then you're all you're asking for support staff. Well the contractors are filling the position of the support staff now. And I think it's it's I want these things to go through quickly. I want them to be efficient and I want them to be very effective.
▶ 1:16:33And the ability to hire all these other people into the VA system you know in a timely manner so that backlogs and everything for the VR&E program we want to we we're going to have to deal with the what did Cheney say? You don't go to war with the army you want you go to the war with the army you have. So this is what we have right now. We're trying to get this right. So when when is this RES going to be on the readiness employment system? When is that going to be FOC or fully operational capable? That's a great question.
▶ 1:17:02It is an IOC right now in all 56 regional offices. It'll be fully enabled with all cases by Veterans Day. It's a pretty good day. Mhm. It's And then how many of these contracting positions are going to be eliminated once that's FOC? Contract support is basically surge support. So it isn't that we have positions. We have contracts that enable us to surge when we need to. So for example we have a higher volume of applicants that hit the San Diego area all at once.
▶ 1:17:33We can leverage contractors to help support those counselors. These are people with the same credentials. Those credentials are important to be able to understand the physical and emotional aspects of disability and how that relates to the labor market. There's a relevance to this education component.
▶ 1:17:47it. So Miss Hal then how does that jive with what you said that we should have more permanent positions if the contractors that we're hiring in surge capacity have the same qualifications as the people that you're saying you want to be employed by the VA. Did I hear that right? So how it sounds like like you want two pieces of pie or something.
▶ 1:18:11So if if Miss Devlin is saying that the contractors that are being hired and are working at the VA have the same accreditation and qualifications as a permanent party person in the VA why are you asking for more VA employees if the if it's already being met by the contracting entity? Well I'm not I don't have the numbers the data wasn't shared with me on the expenditures on what is spent on these contracts.
▶ 1:18:39I did not have access to that information but what I can say is that we're in a surge moment right now. Since I've been doing this work we have been over the threshold. With or without contracting the case load has never been below 1 to 125 in the four years I've been at PVA. They still need a full time staff to like to do these things and it stands to reason that it might be cheaper to offer this stuff in house rather than contracting.
▶ 1:19:07Additionally when it comes to the contracting we have been told from veterans that they're joining their intake call that's supposed to be a one-on-one with a counselor and them and 400 of their closest battle buddies are on a zoom with one person trying to do the like the intro sort of um orientation course for this.
▶ 1:19:28you. I'm just one thing that I I'm going push back on you here. I don't I don't cheaper is not a word I'm going to use when it comes to veterans. So, efficiency, that sort of stuff, but not never cheaper. Less expensive maybe, more efficient 100%. We're not and I I know that we have not discussed this, but I don't Chris and I are six and seven. We don't talk about we're not going to cheap our veterans anywhere. I'm and maybe that's not what you intended to say.
▶ 1:19:53Um Miss Howell, who certifies these The So, the contracting officer puts the requirements in the contract and the um the person who oversees the contract would review the resumes and confirm that they meet the requirements. Okay, so a permanent Veterans Affairs Administration employee and this contractor the same person is making sure they have this proper certification, correct? So, it's not a certification, it's an educational requirement, but yes.
▶ 1:20:23Essentially, when a when an employee is hired, a federal government employee is hired, it's part of the hiring process, right? We verify. For a contractor, we we review the contract um the resumes that get submitted for the contract as they get submitted, but it's surge capacity. So, these are not
▶ 1:20:39Rosen, hold on one second. I only have 15 seconds. So, Miss Howell, you we have a it's a volume issue, not a quality issue, is that Okay. Well, we're working on that. we really are. Good. Okay. Well, with that, my time has And I would like to thank you all for coming today. And I thank you for your work. I really do. As I said, I am a I I attended I It's so funny.
▶ 1:21:05I went to and uh now I'm a member of Congress, so maybe we should cancel the entire program. Just kidding. Um we're working diligently and it's going to it's just going to take time. Just like it takes time to educate somebody, takes time to hire somebody, takes time to get them in a place, takes time to learn your job.
▶ 1:21:22Um but I think that that we can all agree that we want to be in the same place that is uh every veteran that has earned this earned, it's not a gift, has earned this benefit has timely access to the programs that they're suited for. I will throw out these two different anecdotes. Interestingly enough, I wanted to go to culinary school and they wouldn't approve it because I've been diagnosed with PTSD and they have to provide you with knives.
▶ 1:21:51And so, and the other one was it was a running joke in the office that I went through my services, they actually approved clown school for somebody. That's real. So, what we want to do is make sure that every one of these dollars is applied most bang for the buck. Um I'd like to see some more metrics. You said you did a longitudinal study for over 16 years.
▶ 1:22:13I'd like to see how many people are there employing and all these things so that we can maximize, Miss Howell, um every single thing that we can do for these veterans because it's critically important. And I think it's great. The be able to have dignity as a disabled veteran is is crucial. And that's that's earned. Um and it's up to us to fulfill that promise that we've made to our veterans. So, with that, I'd like to yield to my ranking member for any closing comments. Well, thank you very much and thanks to our witnesses for their testimony here today.
▶ 1:22:43And look, I I've gotten to know veterans in New Hampshire that uh have successfully navigated VR&E and are benefiting in real time from the resources that are provided. And I think to Miss Howell's point, um during your, you know, years at PVA, um the caseload issue continues to be a problem. Uh we have an overburdened program uh and we need more people uh that are working as counselors or supporting counselors to be able to ensure that veterans are ultimately getting what they need and deserve out of the program.
▶ 1:23:11So, I'm glad we could drill down beyond the headline of this hearing today and actually talk a little bit about the substance of what's going on. Um and I think we all need to make sure that we're continuing to work on process improvements, ensuring that there's the right scrutiny and oversight provided. I think you uh uh gave us good answers on that front today, but I I come back to that core issue. Um you know, we've got to work on those ratios. We've got to make sure that veterans aren't waiting uh and that they're getting the good service that uh VA I know intends to put out.
▶ 1:23:40So, um let's continue to work on that and uh yield back my time. The gentleman yields. Thank you, ranking member Pappas. And thank you very much for coming today. And we see you guys are becoming frequent flyers over there. Um I ask unanimous consent that all members may have five legislative days to revise and extend their remarks and include any extraneous materials. Without objection, so ordered. The hearing is now adjourned.