▶ 0:04:09>> federal law enforcement will come to order. Welcome, everyone. We welcome our audience. We ask that you observe all all principles of polite decorum today, but we are happy to have you here. Without objection, the the chair may declare a recess at any time. I recognize myself for the purpose of making an opening statement.
▶ 0:04:33Today, the subcommittee on federal law enforcement convenes to conduct critical oversight of the agency charged with executing our nation's firearms laws. The bureau of alcohol, tobacco, firearms and explosives, or atf. We're honored to be joined by atf's newly confirmed director, robert sakata.
▶ 0:04:58Director sakata has decades of experience and distinguished service within atf and law enforcement director sakata's deep expertise and his respect for the law and constitutional rights should give us optimism about atf's future posture toward law abiding gun owners and the second amendment.
▶ 0:05:25Strong, principled leadership at atf is all the more important now, given the agency's troubling disregard of second amendment rights over the past several years. One prominent example has been atf's repeated failure to abide by a federal law prohibiting the dissemination of firearms trace data, known popularly as the tiahrt amendments.
▶ 0:05:53Firearms trace data is information about the chain of gun ownership and sale, beginning from point of manufacture maintained by the atf's national tracing center, or ntc. Part of a 2003 department of justice appropriations bill.
▶ 0:06:18The tiahrt amendment precludes atf from sharing this data with anyone other than prosecutors or law enforcement agencies in connection with criminal investigations.
▶ 0:06:33The purpose of this law is clear failure to abide by the tiahrt amendment exposes informants, undercover officers, and lawful federal firearm licensees, or ffls, whose safety could be endangered by revelations and violation of tiahrt.
▶ 0:06:54Despite tia's obvious importance to police and public safety, recent history has shown that atf has sometimes disregarded the law. Some violations of tiahrt have seemed unintentional, associated with accidental data disclosures. While responding to foia requests.
▶ 0:07:19However, other violations clearly stem from the political and ideological opposition that some atf bureaucrats have for the tiahrt law.
▶ 0:07:32There are several glaring recent examples, particularly during the biden administration, to begin the biden atf assisted gun control groups in creating a map of gun shops, including those owned by some members of congress, by providing tier heart protected data as part of a foia request. That's how this map was created.
▶ 0:07:59Atf's release of this data was a clear violation of federal law and seemed intended to help anti-second amendment groups. Separately, the biden atf inadvertently disseminated to heart protected data as part of a foia request from the group gun owners of america, also known as g. O.
▶ 0:08:24Atf, subsequently secured a gag order to prevent g o from sharing the data goa supported by several first amendment groups sued to retain access to the data by virtue of first amendment press freedoms. Dishearteningly. This disregard for the law has not been limited to the biden administration.
▶ 0:08:51After the biden atf's inadvertent disclosure of tiahrt protected trace data to goa the doj under pam bondi rereleased that same data, possibly purposefully, to make moot goas ongoing litigation against the atf gag order.
▶ 0:09:12So rather than protecting the public by preventing sensitive firearms, trace data from falling into the wrong hands, the atf has defied both the letter and the spirit of the law. Atf s approach to tiahrt can serve as a window into the agency's successes and failures, upholding the second amendment and ensuring protections on sensitive law enforcement data.
▶ 0:09:45The biden administration, in particular, took a variety of troubling actions in this regard. Under president biden atf. Quote unquote, zero tolerance enforcement policy, which threatened to close firearm businesses over even small, non-material paperwork and clerical errors, increased reliance on inspection records and compliance data to revoke
▶ 0:10:16Firearms licenses. The biden administration, atf, used bureaucratic complexities to prey upon legally operating firearms dealers and license holders.
▶ 0:10:31Furthermore, biden era regulatory changes and enforcement guidance expanded who is considered, quote unquote, engaged in the business of dealing firearms, potentially implicating unsuspecting everyday americans as federally regulated gun dealers and subjecting them to severe penalties for noncompliance, including criminal prosecution.
▶ 0:11:00I have faith that the current administration will continue to roll back the biden atf's most destructive regulations. A recently announced batch of atf proposed rulemakings seemed to do just that, and I encourage that action.
▶ 0:11:20However, atf's improper treatment of tiahrt protected data demonstrates that rigorous, ongoing congressional oversight of the agency is necessary, regardless of which party controls the white house. I thank you, my friend, director sakata, for joining us today to discuss this crucial subject, along with other second amendment issues.
▶ 0:11:47I look forward to today's hearing, and I now recognize the ranking member of the subcommittee, miss summer lee of pennsylvania, for the purpose of making it an opening statement. >> thank you, Mr. chair, and I also look forward to and excited to have a hearing existing.
▶ 0:12:07Um, I do have to wonder, though, what it will take to actually get my republican colleagues to take action to prevent gun violence, because columbine wasn't enough, sandy hook wasn't enough, las vegas wasn't enough, and parkland wasn't enough, and the pulse nightclub wasn't enough. Um, even your president, uh, being shot at multiple different times wasn't enough.
▶ 0:12:29Last year, according to a tracker by everytown, there were 38,368 incidents of gun violence in the united states, resulting in 13,926 deaths, 21,686 injuries. Gun violence remains the leading cause of death for children in the united states of america. Mister chair, your home state of louisiana had the highest gun violence death rate.
▶ 0:12:51Just last month, there was a mass shooting at a mall in baton rouge and another shooting in shreveport, where eight children were killed. Yet this hearing with the new director of the bureau of alcohol, tobacco, firearms and explosives isn't about reducing gun violence. It's about privacy protections for gun dealers. Trump and republicans have shown again and again that they do not care about this epidemic of gun violence.
▶ 0:13:20After a shooting, they at most post online thoughts and prayers, and then they go back to vehemently defending the second amendment. Sometimes they even mock these tragedies by wearing a little assault gun rifle pins, uh, 18 days after he took office, president trump signed an executive order on protecting second amendment rights, which seems to be the only constitutional right that they care about falling in line with this executive order, director cicada recently
▶ 0:13:51Announced new rules, none of which do anything to reduce gun violence. Among these proposed changes are a narrowing of the engaged in business rule, which generally ensures that for profit gun sellers must obtain a federal firearms license. He has also moved to deregulate bump stocks like the one used in the 2017 las vegas mass shooting that led to 60 deaths. Trump and republicans aren't just making sure gun dealers and owners remain unregulated and unburdened.
▶ 0:14:20He has also attacked efforts to get to the root causes of gun violence. Trump closed the office of gun violence prevention, which helped hundreds of americans in countless communities, by offering the first ever federal response to mass shootings and gun violence. It responded to crises when they happened and connected local governments and municipalities with resources to help victims and survivors.
▶ 0:14:45Last year, the doj also abruptly terminated about 500, excuse me, 500 million in federal grants to more than 200 organizations and local governments working on community safety and justice issues. One of the things these organizations do is work to combat street violence and connect people with mental health services, and they get results.
▶ 0:15:13Studies have shown that community violence intervention programs reduce violence in communities and have contributed to lowering homicide rates. It's why I launched the community safety caucus to prioritize this work. Real community safety means making holistic investments in people to root out the systemic challenges that perpetuate this cycle of harm. Yet due to trump's policies, many of these organizations doing this crucial work have had to roll back services or have had to close entirely.
▶ 0:15:43So under this administration, you can't regulate guns and you can't have programs that address the violence in other ways. And you can't say that the money isn't there. Surely we can take some of the $1 billion in proposed proposed for the trump ballroom bunker and put it towards some of these violence reduction programs. Republicans want to control what books you read, what history you learn, how you identify who you can love. Our bodies.
▶ 0:16:13They want to control everything except the very thing that could prevent deaths of children and students and worshipers and shoppers in the only country on earth where this is a problem. It seems that they think those thoughts and prayers do enough, but that we, one of the most powerful body in this country, can do no more. Uh, I thank you. And I yield back. >> the gentlelady yields without objection. Representatives eric burlison of missouri.
▶ 0:16:42Michael cloud of texas. Andrew clyde of georgia and eli crane of arizona and maxwell frost of florida are waived onto the subcommittee for the purpose of questioning the witness at today's hearings. I'm pleased to welcome today's witness.
▶ 0:17:03Robert scott is the director of bureau of alcohol, tobacco, firearms and explosives, confirmed by the senate on april 29th. Director cicada brings with him over three decades of law enforcement and public service experience. Mr. cicada's law enforcement career began with the new york city police department, where he served from 1992 to 2000.
▶ 0:17:31He joined atf as a special agent in 2005 in the baltimore field division. His successes in a variety of field assignments led to his promotion to atf headquarters, where he has served in multiple senior leadership positions. Prior to his appointment as director. Most recently, he served as deputy director beginning in april 2025.
▶ 0:18:01I personally welcome director cicada for being here, and I'd like to note that the gentleman made me a promise a few months ago that he would appear before this committee as his first available date on his calendar.
▶ 0:18:23After confirmation, he called me immediately after confirmation very quickly and and advised me he intended to honor that promise. And here he sits today. Thank you for honoring your word, Mr. cicada. Pursuant to committee rule nine g, the witness will please stand and raise your right hand, sir.
▶ 0:18:44Do you solemnly swear or affirm that the testimony that you're about to give is the truth, the whole truth, and nothing but the truth, so help you god? Let the record show that the witness answered in the affirmative. Thank you sir, you may take a seat. We appreciate you being here today, and I look forward to your testimony. We all do.
▶ 0:19:11Let me remind the witness that we have read your written statement, and it will appear in full in the hearing record. Please limit your oral statement to five minutes. Sir, as a reminder, please press the button on the microphone in front of you. So that is it on and members can hear you. When you begin to speak. The light in front of you will turn green. After four minutes it will turn yellow when the red light comes on, your five minutes has expired.
▶ 0:19:39We ask you, you please wrap up. At that point, I now recognize director sakata for his opening statement. >> thank you sir. Good morning, chairman higgins, ranking member lee and members of the subcommittee. Thank you for the invitation to appear before you to discuss privacy protections and the second amendment. Atf is the only federal law enforcement agency whose primary mission is combating violent crime.
▶ 0:20:05We arrest violent criminals, disrupt firearm trafficking networks that armed gangs and cartels investigate bombings and arson, and deliver world class forensic and intelligence services to state and local partners, all while protecting the second amendment and all rights of law abiding americans. We are a small federal agency with roughly 4600 employees, but we are mighty and our actions speak for themselves.
▶ 0:20:32Since january 20th, 2025, atf has arrested just over 8700 criminals and seized nearly 44,000 illegal firearms, approximately 5100 of which were being interdicted with the intention to traffic them to mexico. Just over 2.7 million rounds of ammunition and more than 28,300 illegal explosives. We've also made historic gains in e-form processing.
▶ 0:20:59By the end of may, we will have processed many e-form one and four applications in 2026, as we did in the entirety of 2023. We've done all of this while cutting e-form processing times from 47 days to 42 days, and cutting e-form processing times from 230 days in 2023 to just 12 days today. Although I know this is not an appropriations hearing, I would be remiss if I didn't point out that atf's budget has suffered tremendously in recent years.
▶ 0:21:31Congressional support for the president's fiscal year 2027 budget is therefore paramount to ensuring that atf can continue to make gains in all of these areas the subcommittee cares about, including tracing ballistic evidence and forensic laboratory examinations involving firearms, arson and explosives, and reducing nfa forms. Processing times giving the atf cuts atf has already absorbed. Anything else would lead to catastrophic results.
▶ 0:21:59In all of these efforts, the right to keep and bear arms is a constitutional guarantee, and atf is committed to protecting and preserving it. As I said during my confirmation hearing, effective law enforcement and respect for civil liberties are inseparable obligations, and that is why atf has entered a new era of reform to rebuild trust with the industry, the federal firearms licensees, lawful gun owners and the public while still prioritizing our efforts on public safety.
▶ 0:22:28Some of the specific actions I have taken include establishing a senior industry partnership advisor position to address industry concerns and foster proactive engagement with the regulated community, revoking the enhanced regulatory enforcement policy, sometimes referred to as a zero tolerance policy, and replacing it with a new policy that emphasizes fairness and transparency while recognizing that ffls are often the first line of defense against gun crime.
▶ 0:22:56And I also implemented regulations reforms last month, where atf issued 34 notices of final and proposed rule making following the comprehensive review that was conducted in compliance with the executive order on protecting the second amendment rights, the aim is simpler, clearer regulations that do not compromise public safety. I encourage all of you and your constituents to submit comments on these proposed rules.
▶ 0:23:23We want to make sure that we get these right. Atf complies with all laws enacted by congress. We do not have an illegal firearms registry, and we are committed to upholding the second amendment rights of law abiding citizens and to protect their privacy, including and especially as it relates to tiahrt amendment, the demand letter two program, amongst others. Firearms trace data exists to support criminal investigations. Full stop.
▶ 0:23:49Any decision to share trace data with anyone for any reason requires explicit legal justification to my office for awareness. Under my leadership, that standard is firmly in place to the extent that congress wishes to strengthen these or any other privacy protections, atf and the department stand ready to work with you, Mr. chairman and members of the subcommittee, thank you again for the opportunity to appear before you today. Atf is law enforcement agency in the truest sense.
▶ 0:24:18We enforce the law, we follow the law, and we protect the rights the law guarantees through crime, gun intelligence, forensic analysis, and relentless investigation. We identify and arrest violent offenders and gang members, dismantle trafficking networks, and sever the supply chains, arming cartels, prohibited persons and terrorist organizations, all while safeguarding lawful commerce and upholding the constitution of the united states. Thank you again. I look forward to your questions.
▶ 0:24:48>> I thank the gentleman for his opening statement. I recognize myself for five minutes for questioning. And director takata, we're going to try to drill down on this in five minutes here. Uh, regarding the tiahrt violations that that have been well documented in modern history, driven by for whatever purpose, accidentally or, or purposefully by atf.
▶ 0:25:15And, and perhaps we can concur, as you and I discussed and others from your agency have discussed, like the, the root cause of, of why this has happened and what congress can do, um, driving more clarified standalone legislation that, uh, that will
▶ 0:25:45Enforce the understanding of tiahrt policies that have been codified in, in, uh, appropriations riders for many years. But I think we can have more robust congressional action to more clearly lead not only your atf, sir, but atf of generations yet to come.
▶ 0:26:07Um, so we're going to talk about this, but with an agreed purpose that we're going to continue to work together to address this. The heart concern and ultimately fix it between article one authorities and article two concurrence. Is that correct? Is that sort of summarize our. >> yes, sir. >> okay.
▶ 0:26:32So we have established that the tier amendments are fundamentally a it's a law protecting privacy. It's meant to protect law enforcement officers and the citizenry. Is that correct? >> that's correct. >> okay. So on multiple occasions in recent years, protected firearms trace data was disseminated in contravention of the tiahrt amendment. This sometimes was done seemingly inadvertently.
▶ 0:27:04At other times it appeared to be intentional. Do you think atf has strategically utilized, uh, freedom of information act requests, foia requests, and disclosure as a means of sidestepping to your heart, >> sir, I don't believe that I'm aware of any incident, that it was done intentionally. I could I can tell you that for certain. Uh, the one incident you mentioned that involved the gun owners of america.
▶ 0:27:29Uh, that was an inadvertent mistake, uh, attributed to two things, uh, to be frank, nonetheless, uh, a problem and a big mistake. It was attributed a, uh, to a lack of staffing and b, the software that we were using, uh, to redact, uh, information in an effort to respond to foia. Uh, the, uh, folks in our foia office, uh, in their review process, selected the information set to be redacted.
▶ 0:27:56And the system had a clunky way of finalizing those redactions. And that was never done appropriately. No excuse. Uh, it was wrong. Uh, we shouldn't have been released. Uh, the, the, the second release involving that same response did involve the doj and I won't speak on their behalf. Uh, but as far as what atf did after that, we did, uh, purchase new software, uh, to ensure that we actually don't have any sort of, uh, human error in the future.
▶ 0:28:26>> so, so you feel confident that based upon the, the existing culture of compliance with tiahrt and the examples that, that, that under your leadership, atf accepts responsibility for and intends to learn from moving forward. But you've been dealing with tiahrt as a appropriations rider, unknown.
▶ 0:28:54If it be renewed year by year, it's expected to be renewed. But until it's done, it's not done. So for 20 years, that's been the culture you've had to deal with. And we intend to to pass permanent tiahrt, uh, legislation, standalone legislation. Would that help? Like within the, the, the procedures and policies and cultures of the atf to be more solid in compliance with tiahrt?
▶ 0:29:26>> if I may, sir, I think, uh, atf has I can tell you for certain during my time and under my watch, atf, uh, completely respects tiahrt. We will make sure there were no releases where there's a challenge. And I look forward to working with this committee, uh, to help, uh, give tiahrt the tool, the strength it needs to, to protect the etrace data that we use in particular, because that data, as you stated, is used to protect our communities.
▶ 0:29:54That's how our law enforcement officers, our undercover operations, we use that information to identify and target violent criminals for our criminal investigations. That data is misused at times, uh, through, uh, different leadership in the local communities who compel our state and local partners to turn over that data. Uh, the only mechanism atf has, uh, to hold them accountable is to cut a particular law enforcement off of etrace.
▶ 0:30:22That is not a good solution for us. It's, it's tough for us when that's the only option. Because if I cut that law enforcement agency off of etrace, I'm also thereby putting public safety at risk because that same police department is now not able to conduct their investigation. >> we want to work with you to to stabilize that that process and atf policies. Uh, we're going to deliver you a more permanent fix there, sir.
▶ 0:30:46Uh, without objection, I'd like unanimous consent to enter into the record a letter from my office to the atf dated january 28th of this year.
▶ 0:30:59Uh, in reference to this topic, another letter from my office to director cicada, um, deputy director at the time, dated april 6th, 2026, and a response from the department of justice to letters that we directed to them on this topic, um, from just a couple of days ago, without objection. So ordered.
▶ 0:31:24I'll now recognize the ranking member, miss lee, for her questioning. >> thank you, Mr. chair. I would like to start by acknowledging the eight children who were shot and killed recently in the first of two horrific mass shootings in louisiana. One of them was only three years old. Children should face this kind of or should not face this kind of violence. They should not have to learn active shooter drills at schools. They shouldn't have to, uh, worry about any of this.
▶ 0:31:56They should be living and playing and just being kids. I represent western pennsylvania, which includes communities that are still reeling from the pittsburgh synagogue shooting, the deadliest anti-semitic attack in american history. In my district, gun violence is not abstract. It is mass shootings, hate fueled violence, and the daily community violence that devastates families. One of the few agencies tasked with helping reduce gun violence is the bureau of alcohol, tobacco, firearms and explosives, the atf.
▶ 0:32:25So I want to start with debunking some myths about the basic tools used by atf central to all of this gun tracing. Director cicada, could you briefly explain in simple terms how gun tracing works? >> sure. First of all, good morning. Thank you for your question. Uh, so, uh, the trace starts from the point of where the firearm was manufactured.
▶ 0:32:48And in most cases, a firearm goes from the manufacturer to a distributor and from a distributor to a wholesaler or a retailer. Uh, atf uses that trace data to identify who the purchaser was. Uh, and in some cases, the purchaser could have been just a few days prior. In many cases, there's a period of time in between. And it's rare. It varies from firearm to firearm.
▶ 0:33:14Uh, basically what our agents do, uh, is if, if the, when the trace is conducted, if it turns out to be, uh, in our out of business records at the national tracing center, we are able to query to see if that serial number is in the out of business records, if it's not in the out of business records and we have, uh, access through, uh, etrace, uh, the etrace system to the manufacturers, uh, systems, we can identify. Okay, which manufacturer was it?
▶ 0:33:43We contact them. They're all very cooperative. They tell us when it was manufactured, who it went to, and our investigators go out and interview folks. Thank you. Determine where that firearm first entered the public market. >> yes. Thank you so much for that. So gun tracing helps law enforcement figure out trafficking patterns. Um, it helps to determine how a gun got to the crime scene, how it gives us, and it gives us valuable information to stop the spread of illicit firearms. Director cicada.
▶ 0:34:09Atf's gun tracing database is not the same as a searchable national registry of law abiding gun owners. Correct. >> there is no searchable gun database for american gun owners. >> so, because federal law already prohibits a national gun registry, these rules aren't in place to villainize gun owners. They're here to keep us safe.
▶ 0:34:30I emphasize this because republicans have convened this hearing today around the tiahrt amendment, which are a cluster of riders to spending bills that limit how atf and fbi can use the data they collect to trace and track gun trafficking. These riders don't even really protect gun owners. They protect the gun industry. Director cicada. I'd also like to ask you about the 34 rules you recently proposed, either deregulating firearm requirements or streamlining processes to ease the burden on federally licensed firearm dealers.
▶ 0:34:59In announcing these rules, you were surrounded by representatives of firearm industry groups. Did you just yes or no? Did you consult with gun industry affiliated groups such as the nra, gun owners of america, the nssf, uh, which is the firearm industry trade association, uh, in formulating and drafting the rulemakings? >> no, we did not. >> uh, did you consult with any victims and survivors of gun violence? >> no, we did not. >> uh, did you consult with any gun violence prevention organizations? >> we did not. >> um, are you familiar with the concept of industry capture?
▶ 0:35:29Uh, what would you say to those who look at the announcement and the process for crafting these rules and see that atf is, or might perceive atf to be influenced by the very firearm industries it's meant to police. >> uh, did you say industry capture? I'm sorry, I didn't hear you properly. >> yes, sir. Um. >> did you say. >> I asked if you're familiar with the concept of industry of industry? >> the first time I heard that was reading a news article I believe is today, uh, this morning. And so I can tell you atf isn't captured by anyone.
▶ 0:36:00Uh, we are focused on doing our job and following the law. Uh, I purposely didn't meet with anyone. We took the information that we have noticed over the years. Again, I've been doing this 34 years, uh, and working in the most violent cities in the united states and risking my life along with the lives of all of our partners around the country to try to make america's communities better. Uh, there is ambiguity. Ambiguity in the law. Uh, and I think it's important for people to be able to follow the law, to understand the law.
▶ 0:36:30And when federal agents don't understand the law themselves, that leaves all of us at risk. There shouldn't be any room there. So, uh, no. And again, people were upset at me from both sides because we didn't include anyone. But in order to try and make changes, uh, we, we had to do it in the way we did so that we can now discuss this through the nprm process. Everyone, your constituents, everyone's constituents in this room will have the opportunity to comment. We will take those comments seriously. >> thank you. And I look forward to that.
▶ 0:36:59And I will be sending you a letter with additional concerns and questions that I have around this rulemaking process, and I urge you to consider these regulations. Remember your mission to keep americans safe. As it stands, americans are not safe, and there is a deep perception and reality that there are certain lobbyists gun the gun industry that have influence over our processes. They have influence over our of our policy making. And it's important that we root that out and that we are honest about that. I thank you for your time and I yield back. >> gentlelady yields and recognize Mr.
▶ 0:37:28Gosar for five minutes of questioning. Thank you. Chairman higgins. The firearm owners protection act act bans the federal government from creating a national gun owner database, and the tiahrt amendment prevents the atf from sharing firearm records of law abiding americans. My bill hr 7678. The grip act goes further by blocking federal funds from helping states or local governments create similar databases.
▶ 0:37:55I introduced the act in response to several unconstitutional disclosures of private information and firearms. In 2012, the journal news published the names and addresses of gun permit holders in new york. In 2022, the california department of justice released the personal information of nearly 192,000 concealed carry applicants, and in 2024, the atf released firearm records to the usa today.
▶ 0:38:22Despite those records being protected under the tiahrt amendment. Later that same year, the atf also released firearm data to the to the far left magazine known as the trace, in violation of federal law. My bill, the grip act, makes sure that federal tax dollars are never used to support state record keeping systems that put americans privacy at risk. Directors. Does the federal government maintain any federal firearm databases?
▶ 0:38:51>> uh, sir, the closest thing to a what I would call a database is the national firearms and transfer record, which applies to nfa firearms. Uh, as if as it applies to any other firearms that are that are under the gca, there is no database. >> okay.
▶ 0:39:09So in 2021, atf leaked a memo leaked by gun owners of america revealed that the atf does does have a federal firearm database containing over 550 million out of business records of gun dealers. It is this not a firearm database maintained by the federal government. >> it is not a firearms database. It's, uh again, sir, I'm sorry. I'll explain what the out of business records, uh, are.
▶ 0:39:35And, uh, the out of business records are, uh, there's under law as well. Uh, once a federal firearms licensee goes out of business, they're required to turn over their records to atf within 30 days. Atf's, uh, national tracing center ends up processing these records that come in all shapes and forms. Rip torn, old, uh, moldy, etc. And, uh, they scan these forms into our, uh, system. They're in the system.
▶ 0:40:03The only thing that's actually searchable is a serial number. Uh, and most manufacturers serial numbers are repeated, uh, even when, for example, a police officer tries to determine if a firearm is stolen, you have to include make, model and serial number to be able to determine which firearm you're actually referring to. Those records are completely separate from every active federal firearms licensee that's operating in the united states.
▶ 0:40:29So if we if we try to conduct a trace and we try those initial out of business records, which we are required to maintain by law, uh, and we strike out, we don't have anything. We have to try to determine where, when it was manufactured from the manufacturer. Then we get to that federal firearms licensee, and then it's a phone call where they actually have to go through all their files and find the individual 4473 if they are using a paper system.
▶ 0:40:56A lot of the files today use a digital system that we don't have access to. So they're able to tell us in short order, if we call them late at night that, um, madam. Madam proprietor. Hey, there was a shooting. We're trying to track down who may have had this firearm. They have to go through their records to provide us that information. We don't have access to it. And ultimately for court, we would go and obtain an original copy, provide them with the receipt, and then return the original copy. Once we were done with the case.
▶ 0:41:26>> so has the atf ever violated the tea party, uh, amendment? >> uh, as I said, we have, uh, what I'm aware of inadvertently, I'm not aware of any intentional releases done by anyone in my staff, uh, during my time that I've been in a leadership position. >> so you said, so you said that, that it has been violated, right? >> I say it again, sir. >> the amendment was violated. Right?
▶ 0:41:50>> it was I said as I answered, uh, chairman higgins, that there was a inadvertent leak that I'm aware of. Not a leak. A inverting, uh, failed attempt to redact information that was responsive to goa and that resulted in information being released that shouldn't be released. So you're correct. >> well, I am strongly opposed to any gun owners database. Congress must pass my bill to defund state registries and eliminate all federal gun owner registries.
▶ 0:42:20Uh, whether it lasts 60 years, 30 years, 20 years, and ten years. A registry is a registry. Congress has always rejected the idea of government keeping a list of firearm owners. Thank you. I yield yield back. >> the gentleman yields. Mr. bell is recognized for five minutes for questioning. >> thank you, Mr. chair. Um, first is really good to see the moms demand action t shirts in the crowd. I should have expected that. But it's certainly a pleasant surprise to see you all there.
▶ 0:42:50I say it all the time. If you want to know my policies on common on common sense gun safety laws, look at their website. Um, Mr. sakata, unlike many of the this administration's appointees, um, you actually have experience in this field. And so that's actually refreshing to see.
▶ 0:43:11Um, but as a former prosecutor, um, which I'm sure you've been involved in many of these investigations, like myself, I've learned a simple reality and that is most guns used in crimes started somewhere legal. They're manufactured, sold by a licensed dealer and a background check is completed. And that's where the paper trail begins and too often where it ends.
▶ 0:43:39But what happens next is the real problem. Simple but yet profound. And that is guns move. Guns move from licensed dealers into the secondary market. They move through unlicensed sellers who aren't running background checks, aren't keeping records, and aren't accountable to anyone, and they end up at crime scenes.
▶ 0:44:02And too often I've shown up at crime scenes and seeing not only people being harmed, but children as well, both of which are tragic. The bipartisan safer, safer communities act addressed the loophole loophole law enforcement had raised, concerned about concerns about for years the quote unquote, engaged in the business rule created clear standards for.
▶ 0:44:28When repeated gun sales crossed the line into illegal, unlicensed dealing. But on may 6th, 2026, this year, obviously, atf published proposed changes that would weaken that rule, weakening these standards makes it harder to ensure repeat for profit gun sales sellers get a federal law to keep records and run background checks. And when you roll back these standards, the behavior does not stop.
▶ 0:44:56The accountability is what stops. Unlicensed sellers can operate more freely, sell more guns, and do so knowing it will be harder for law enforcement to stop them. And we know how the story ends. Missouri already showed us in 2007, missouri repealed its permit to purchase law in firearm homicides increased by 47% in our state.
▶ 0:45:25Law enforcement also began recovering much newer guns at crime scenes, a sign that illegal gun trafficking was increasing. But here's what makes this moment especially troubling. We're not just weakening and enforcement tool we're doing so.
▶ 0:45:42While this congress is further threatening our ability to track the impact of these decisions through limits on gun trace data and research, directors have several questions about how the atf plans to explain. Explain that to the american people. So how does weakening the engaged in the business rule improve public safety? Uh. >> first of all, good morning, and thank you for your question.
▶ 0:46:10Uh, the engage in the business rule did not help public safety at all. Uh, to be very frank. Uh, so this is not the first attempt, uh, that was done in the history that I've been working with atf. >> I'm gonna reclaim my time just because I'm short on time. And I want to get as many questions as I can in this proposal. Atf concedes that weakening this rule may cause some previously deterred sellers to go back to operating without a license. The resulting risk to public safety is described as de minimis.
▶ 0:46:38Please explain that characterization to this committee because families impacted by gun violence in my district and across the country might describe those consequences very differently. How did atf reach that conclusion? Uh, atf. >> reached that conclusion because we have licenses to become ffl, you have to go through atf to get a federal firearms license. We know how many, uh, come into business each year and how many go out of business each year.
▶ 0:47:04So we specifically were looking at those numbers and saw a minuscule increase in the number of people who became federal firearms licensees since the time that the eib rule came into effect. Uh, and, uh, for us, uh, that showed us nothing. It showed us zero impact on helping public safety.
▶ 0:47:26But the, uh, the, the, uh, the negative result on atf when you compile some of the other things that were put on the agency, frankly, some of the release of other information, some of the efforts as it was on stabilizing brace and other things, all caused the agency to receive a negative result on our budget, which I can tell you had a negative impact on public safety. Uh, the engaged in the business rule. I could give you an example.
▶ 0:47:54Every year, somewhere between 6 to 9000 ffls go into business, 6 to 9000 go out of business. Kind of like the restaurant business. It's a tough business. And there's, uh, folks that are, uh, been doing this for decades and they've been following the rules and those people interact with atf very much. I will make one comment because you mentioned bse. >> briefly, because I want to be respectful to the time. Um, the problem is, is that what we're seeing is the gun violence increasing.
▶ 0:48:23You cannot weaken accountability, limit the data used to measure the results and still claim you're protecting public safety. Uh, I yield back. >> the gentleman yields, uh, representative perry from pennsylvania, recognized for five minutes for question. >> thank you, Mr. chairman. Uh, Mr. sakata, thanks for your service to our country and for the work that you do.
▶ 0:48:49Um, just curious generally about your professional in your position relationship with the department of justice and, and the attorney general. >> uh, well, I met the first of all. Good morning and thank you again. Uh, so I met the attorney, the current acting attorney general. Uh, I think it was february or march of last year.
▶ 0:49:13Uh, the entire team at the attorney general's office is new, so I've only known them through a professional, uh, work relationship since that time. >> all right. So when, when the because I've got a lot of questions about the doj and I'm trying to see how they might pertain to you. So when the doj does things that seem to be in your lane as the director of the atf, do you weigh in? Do you have regular meetings?
▶ 0:49:42Does your staff question how does all that go or is there no conversation whatsoever? They do their thing. You watch from afar. You might agree or disagree, is there. So I'm just wondering about that. >> I think, uh, that's a pretty broad question. So I think, uh, in the areas that we have meetings on a regular basis, we are in phone contact daily, uh, if not once a day, multiple times a day. Okay.
▶ 0:50:09But there's things, for example, that, uh, matters that were in the courts, in a legislative area in that doj was handling. I don't work with them on a daily, uh, matter at all. That's something a civil litigation that's being represented by doj. They'll handle it. They may consult with our chief counsel at atf, uh, to ensure that we're in the, uh, the right lane.
▶ 0:50:31But for the most part, they will deal with atf when it involves, for example, um, the regulatory package that just went out, uh, any criminal enforcement operations that we have targeting cities that are being impacted by violent crime, I will present not the minutia as to what's going on in the operation, but we will lay out the plan for a surge in a number of cities to reduce violent crime. >> okay. Thank you. And I'm wondering particularly about actions the doj has taken.
▶ 0:51:00And I know that you may not have been here as long as some of these things, but the previous administration accidentally sent goa unredacted information in a foia production.
▶ 0:51:13Uh, the fbi, the atf, secured a gag order against the goa and I'm just wondering, um, now, that was the atf secured the gag order order against the goa, which generally gag orders are meant to protect those that the government is prevailing upon, not silence them.
▶ 0:51:36So, um, in that regard, what has been your input regarding that particular instance. Are you familiar or are you not familiar? >> I am, and that's the same case that we were talking about earlier, sir. Uh, the case that goa was involved in and, uh, that did occur in the previous administration. So I wasn't personally involved in that, but I'm familiar with it. And as I stated, that particular case, uh, was a inadvertent release by our employees foia section.
▶ 0:52:05So, uh, as far as atf's, uh, discussion at the time and doj's input, I wasn't involved. I'm not aware what the conversations were about that matter. >> and allegedly, the same program was used to spy on january, so-called january 6th defendants and to enforce state assault weapons, so-called assault weapons bans. Are you familiar with that? >> I am not. >> do you know if anybody's been held accountable at atf for those actions?
▶ 0:52:34>> if you can be as specific as to which actions you're referring to. >> the ones that were used to, uh, enforce state assault weapons bans? >> I am not familiar with that. Uh, and as to just to be clear as to the goa, the inadvertent release, no one has been held accountable because we don't believe that anyone actually did anything intentionally, but we have held ourselves accountable by changing process and purchasing the appropriate application to prevent and eliminate things like that again. >> all right.
▶ 0:53:04Are you familiar with the doj's interpretation of the reconciliation language that was passed in the house and the senate and signed by the president regarding the zero taxation of short barreled rifles and suppressors? Are you familiar with the doj's interpretation? And do you agree with it? >> uh, I'm not familiar with the specific verbiage. I understand the, the, our responsibilities that came along with it, uh, effective january 1st.
▶ 0:53:32And atf has done everything we, uh, could do to the best of our abilities to ensure we're in compliance with that. >> do you, if you have a disagreement with the doj regarding their interpretation of that law or any other one, how is that how is that evidenced? Do you send a letter? Do you speak to the attorney general?
▶ 0:53:52How is it evidenced publicly so that we, as the elected officials and representatives, each of 760 000 bosses or citizens, how do we articulate any difference of opinion that you might have with the doj? >> I sir, I apologize. I'm not familiar with the difference of opinion. I believe that atf and doj are in line with, uh, ensuring we're in compliance with zero tax, uh, law.
▶ 0:54:15Uh, and we, I was preparing from that from the moment it came into place, I believe it was june or july of last summer that became effective, effective in january. And to be clear, we did that with zero, uh, increase to our base.
▶ 0:54:32Uh, we did that with our own employees, uh, looking at the systems that we have and looking at the process and making significant changes, all of the reductions in processing time that I mentioned to you was not from us. Uh, investing in new systems is from our people looking at, uh, why are things done a certain way and modernizing how we do it, uh, prior to zero tax actually coming into effect, I tested the system myself.
▶ 0:55:00I never purchased a suppressor before because I could afford to buy one. And I don't want to wait 14 months to get one. So, uh, in november when we made the changes, uh, I was happy to see I didn't tell anyone of these folks, but I went out and purchased one I was happy to see within about 48 hours, I was able to get an approval versus what was 14 months, not too long prior to that.
▶ 0:55:21Those numbers have increased a little bit because of on january 1st, when we went into effect, uh, the system, uh, took a little bit of a shock. But in the meantime, uh, we are still at greatly reduced numbers from where we were in the years before. >> times long expired. I yield, Mr. chairman. >> thank you. The gentleman yields, and miss presley is recognized for five minutes for questioning. >> thank you, Mr. chair. Good morning, director sakata.
▶ 0:55:48Gun violence is a public health crisis, and this administration is failing to meet it with the urgency that it demands across our country, including in my district, the massachusetts seven families are bearing the devastating consequences of shootings, trafficking, domestic violence, femicide, suicide and community trauma.
▶ 0:56:13Just this past monday, a gunman armed with an assault rifle opened fire on random drivers and pedestrians traveling along memorial drive in cambridge, terrorizing people in broad daylight. Constituents in my district and communities across this country should not have to live with the constant fear that their daily commute could become a mass casualty event.
▶ 0:56:38Now, while massachusetts has some of the strongest gun safety laws in the nation, more than two thirds of guns recovered from crimes in our commonwealth originate from out of state. At the same time, communities are demanding accountability. Director sakata, your agency has weakened oversight of gun dealers by ending the zero tolerance policy for firearm dealers who violate the law. Mr. director, yes or no?
▶ 0:57:05Should gun dealers who willfully sell firearms to prohibited individuals be allowed to continue operating? Yes or no? >> your statement is a violation of the law and they should be put out of business. If they willfully violate the gun control act. >> all right. That's right. These dealers are breaking the law and previously would have had their licenses to sell revoked.
▶ 0:57:35But your agency repealed that policy. Accountability should not be a radical concept here. Instead, your agency has chosen to weaken enforcement while simultaneously defending policies that limit access to data that communities need to combat gun violence. This is bad public policy. This is bad for public safety. This is bad for public health. Survivors of gun violence carry lifelong trauma, especially our children.
▶ 0:58:04Increasingly so, a childhood is a privilege instead of a right. Young people are growing up internalizing trauma as a normal part of daily life. Active shooter drills, memorials outside of school, parents afraid to allow their children to walk home alone. Now, all the data supports that exposure to gun violence has profound and lasting impacts on childhood development, mental and physical health, and educational attainment, and the full oversight committee. I convened the first ever congressional hearing on childhood trauma.
▶ 0:58:34It was illuminating and devastating. Children who witnessed gun violence are more likely to experience anxiety, depression, and ptsd well into adulthood. These children and their families are the people you should be centering in your work. Director sakata. I believe the people closest to the pain should be the closest to the power. But let's look at who you are instead.
▶ 0:58:59Holding close to the power, not the traumatized children, not the grieving mothers, not the classroom educators who every day wonder, is today the day that I will have to shield my student from a shooter instead?
▶ 0:59:18This is a picture from your signing ceremony announcing over 30 changes to end gun safety protections, and standing directly behind you are the leaders of the gun lobby, the nra, the national shooting sports foundation, the national association for gun rights, and others who have spent decades obstructing common sense gun safety measures.
▶ 0:59:42The gun lobby is controlling the regulators while our communities are paying the price, burying loved ones and raising children in fear. The shame and the shame of it all. I yield back. >> the gentlelady yields. The gentleman from arizona, Mr. biggs, is recognized for five minutes for question. >> thank you, Mr. chairman. Director, thank you for being here today.
▶ 1:00:08And, um, shortly after you were sworn in, you, uh, you did announce some rules change rulemaking that you were going to change. Um, and a few of these are would do the following in the biden era, enhanced regulatory enforcement policy that unfairly targeted lawful firearms dealers unfairly emphasize public safety while de-emphasizing punitive measures for clerical errors restrict the agency's
▶ 1:00:40National instant criminal background checks and the nix system alerts to federal gun trafficking violations improve the agency's response times to inquiries from ffls, and ended bans on the importation of dual use barrels and non-lethal training ammunition. How are you? How are you doing in getting those rules passed and implemented, sir? >> uh, well, good morning sir. Thank you for your question.
▶ 1:01:04So, uh, there's a lot of things that you mentioned there that I think people are reviewing now, uh, to see what their thoughts are on their perspective. I will tell you that, uh, we've heard, uh, some initial thoughts from both sides, the, the gun safety community and from the second amendment community. And initially, I think there was a lot of comments. Uh, I made the announcement and there was, I think two sentences of text out on each reg.
▶ 1:01:33Uh, I heard that the world was ending on one side and at the other side. I didn't do enough. So I think as the text is coming out, people are starting to read and, uh, doing exactly what what I was hoping they would do is starting to make comments into the process through the, uh, rulemaking process. And we hope that they share with us their concerns from the, uh, the gun safety community and from the two a community as to, hey, did we hit it? Did we miss something?
▶ 1:02:02>> the, the two way community is also a gun safety community. >> I agree. >> I agree, it's important to distinguish that. I always remember that as opposed to the to the anti-gun community. So, uh, what I want to know is you one of them was firearms, electronic record keeping. Um, and tell me why is it better to store records that way? The rule proposes right now it's a proposal. 1140 a 94. >> I'm sorry. Sorry, I didn't hear you. Well, I. >> apologize, I'm sorry.
▶ 1:02:30The firearms, electronic record keeping and, uh, rule making proposal. Uh, why is it better to store records that way? >> uh, well, first of all, uh, it's much easier for us when we work with the for the ffls. If they're using a, a electronic form, the number of errors that they make are greatly reduced, uh, because the system helps them check through the processing of the 44, 70 threes years past the handwritten 44, 73.
▶ 1:03:00The ffl is often made a template, kind of like what we went through in school where, uh, your teachers were grade your, uh, exams and, uh, they were rushing through to do things properly. It would make, as you stated, some administrative mistakes. So that combined with the changes to the 44, 73 that we proposed, which would make things simpler, uh, to be able to answer the important questions without trying to trick anyone.
▶ 1:03:25Uh, I've had to pause numerous times, filling out a 4473 with no concern as to any criminal record, but wanting to make sure that they make a mistake, that somehow I was going to get in trouble.
▶ 1:03:38So we try to make that a form that answers all the concerns of government and public safety, but also to do it in a way where some of these systems allow for a driver's license to be swiped into the reader, and it fills out all of the information into the electronic form, which thereby again reduces the amount of errors that can be in that form. So for us and for the consumer and the public, that was the best way to proceed, uh, and would allow people to do so.
▶ 1:04:08>> one of the things then, and, uh, that I, I want to ask that and kind of follows up with rep gosar was talking about is what safeguards and protections of data privacy, protecting, protecting from intrusion by both the government and private citizens. Does this system have in place? What do you or what you hope envision being in place? >> yeah. So again, to be clear, we have zero connection to the system that the federal firearms, firearms licensees use.
▶ 1:04:36Uh, it does make it much more efficient for a federal firearms licensee. Uh, in receiving a phone call from atf regarding following up on a criminal investigation instead of sorting through hundreds or thousands of paper records, they can go through an electronic system, allow them to retrieve what they need, and provide atf with a specific answer to our questions. >> thank you. In the last second segment, opposed this question. I don't think you're gonna have time to to respond to it.
▶ 1:05:03But right now, um, in maricopa county, uh, we, we still see in arizona a massive amount of drug cartel and criminal cartel activity. And, uh, one of the things that's going on is they, they're sending guns and firearms south of the border. Um, and so you've got guns, uh, you got drugs coming up, guns going down, cash going down.
▶ 1:05:29Um, and 62% of the us guns recovered within the sinaloa drug cartel war have been traced right back and have been trafficked out of arizona. Um, so my, I guess my question is, and you don't have time to answer it, but, uh, we'll maybe get together afterwards, but I'd like to know what, what your position is on how to, what operations you've taken in place to go south to stop southbound, uh, trafficking of weapons.
▶ 1:05:56And I think that's critical, uh, in our relationship with mexico, but also in the united states. And so with that, Mr. chairman, thank you for your indulgence, and I yield. >> I'd love to answer that question if I am allowed to, sir. >> uh. Yes, sir. Go ahead. Gentleman's question. >> and we can go into further details in the future. But, uh, so long story short, uh, under the last administration, under bsca, there was authorities for firearms trafficking.
▶ 1:06:23Uh, the sadly, uh, my agents in arizona specifically, uh, tried to prevent over 250 cases where, uh, about that many defendants were identified as being involved in trafficking conspiracies, uh, to mexican cartels, uh, specifically and, uh, rifles and belt fed firearms that were being sourced on behalf of the cartels through straw purchasers and traffickers that were actually cartel members. Uh, sadly, uh, the U.S.
▶ 1:06:54Attorney at the time, uh, refused to take those charges forward. So I sat there, uh, gaining great concern not only for the community in the united states, but also in mexico and living in the past of our fears. I saw operation fast and furious, uh, developing again where atf was tracking firearms that were already sold and no one was doing anything about it, and we were going to be held accountable.
▶ 1:07:19I approached todd blanche, uh, who, uh, he and emil beauvais had just started there, and I literally brought a stack to them and said, hey, uh, although we had the bsca, nobody was getting charged. I need some help on this. Uh, because atf is not going to sit back and take the blame for cases that should be charged by a federal prosecutor. Uh, they jumped on it.
▶ 1:07:39We started working on the, the highest priority cases, uh, as a result of the work that my folks are doing, we've charged, uh, the first, uh, conspiracies involving dirty ffl. Uh, one I'll name because it's public, uh, grips by larry, who was involved in trafficking large amounts of belt fed firearms through a, a series of straws, but also, uh, cartel members who recruited these straws.
▶ 1:08:04Uh, those people are now charged with providing material support to a terrorist organization. Uh, the goal of that is to serve significant deterrence. And as we talked about, we don't prevent violent crime by threatening gun owners and law abiding citizens. We prevent violent crime by holding criminals accountable and serving through the courts a significant sentence that serves as a deterrence. And that's what I've seen as the best measure of defense to the public.
▶ 1:08:34>> I look forward to more details, uh, and meeting with you, uh, one on one. Uh. >> we appreciate that, that answer and I appreciate. >> I have some. >> use of the ranking member. >> can I do you. >> some the gentleman from florida, Mr. frost? Yes. Unanimous consent? >> yes. If you if you don't mind, um, uh, rpg launcher tube, uh, rifles hidden in lexus headed to mexico. Arizona gun dealer facing terrorism charges for alleged sales to cartel. Mexican national sentenced in major mid-east. Mexico.
▶ 1:09:03Arizona smuggling scheme. Arizona guns are fueling a drug cartel war in mexico. Arizona is sheltering in place after cartel violence, and gun owners of american battles. Atf gag order over secret surveillance of illegal gun. >> without objection, so ordered the gentleman from florida, Mr. frost, is recognized. And thank you for your patience. Mr. yes, yes. >> thank you. Thank you, Mr. chair.
▶ 1:09:26Um, director cicada, you were sworn in as director of atf on april 29th, on the same day that you were sworn in, you announced over 30 changes to federal firearm regulations with representatives of the gun industry standing behind you, corporate interests. Um, and then published just a few days later on may 9th.
▶ 1:09:48So the average person sees and says, well, the way this is supposed to work is you get sworn into a job, you get into the work, you work with your staff, and you figure out what changes you want to make. But the fact that you want announced over 30 changes in just a few hours shows us that, obviously, there was some work done before you were sworn in, before you got the actual job. So I have some questions around that.
▶ 1:10:13Director, did you start developing these regulations or these changes, uh, under the biden administration or the trump administration? >> uh, well, good morning, sir. Thank you for your question. To be clear, uh, when the biden administration exited, I was the executive assistant director for operations at atf, and I was shortly thereafter promoted to the deputy director, where I had complete oversight of our agency's operations since april of 2025. So the work did not start on may 8th, uh, or may 1st.
▶ 1:10:43We've been working as an agency together for over a year, uh, as we were supposed to under president trump's second amendment executive order to review all policies, regulations, uh, and other items that may have. >> yes, sir. Thank you, thank you, I appreciate it. So you've been working on this, the slew of 30 different, uh, deregulatory things.
▶ 1:11:07You've been working on it before you were sworn in, you had these ideas before you were getting ready to put them forth, I guess, hoping that one day you might be nominated as a director. >> no, that's not true. They were going to go forward regardless, because atf was still tasked by the president to proceed with, uh, this review, and we were going to push them forward. >> so. >> yes, sir. >> and thank you. I'm gonna reclaim my time.
▶ 1:11:29And so I, I just, I, I, I don't see a world where the president would nominate you to this position without knowing that you would actually move forward with putting forth these 30 regulations that you say you had been working on because of the executive order. Were these regulations discussed in any interview that you had for your promotion? Yes or no? >> I've never talked to the president about any regulations. >> anyone in the administration. >> the only people I've talked to about regulations are doj, doj.
▶ 1:11:55>> so did they discuss with you these regulations before you were nominated for this position? >> no. Atf worked on these, and we developed the initial drafts. And then there's a review process that involves. >> yes, sir. Remember claiming time. Did you agree to enact any of these regulations in your discussions? >> say that again. >> did you agree to enact any of these regulations in your discussions before you were nominated? >> well, first off, these are proposals. >> just yes or no, sir. >> yes, sir. Sorry, that doesn't answer the question. >> it does answer the question.
▶ 1:12:23Did you agree to enact any of these regulations or put forth these rules or proposals? I know how the process works, director. >> sir, you don't actually. >> yes I do. No you don't, yes I do. Did you agree to put forth these proposals for rule changes while you were having discussions about your possible promotion? Yes or no? That's it. >> the answer is not going to be yes or no. So the answer is their proposals not enacted rules. And yes I. >> their proposed rules. Yes. Were they discussed while you were talking about your promotion? Yes or no, sir.
▶ 1:12:54>> this has nothing to do with what sir. >> I I I I, I answer the questions. You answer the questions, sir. I'm just asking. >> I'm not going to answer yes or no to a question that can't be answered. Yes or no. Sorry. >> why can't it be answered yes or no? >> because you're intentionally trying to argue with me here about something that you're completely wrong on. Uh, first of all, the regulations are not finalized. >> I know I'm saying. >> proposed rules because you keep saying they're enacted and they're not enacted. >> proposed rules. >> you keep mixing.
▶ 1:13:21>> proposed rules where those discussed while you were talking about the possible promotion, yes or no. >> they were discussed with no guarantee of any sort of promotion. As you know, the senate does gets to make a decision that I'm not involved in. >> yeah. So in your discussions with folks in the administration about your possible promotion, the proposed rules were discussed with them. You're saying? Yes. >> of course they were. I've told you that. Thank you. >> that's all I wanted. Were you promoted? Do you believe you're promoted to do that?
▶ 1:13:48To put forth this package of 30 different proposals? >> this is not going to be yes or no answer either. So, sir, I could have retired in november. I didn't need a promotion. Promotion. >> I understand, I'll take my time back. I know you could have retired in november. You're you're you've been at the atf for a long time. You've done great work. I'm just concerned about the fact that on the same day as your confirmation. >> I. >> understand you move forth with a package of over 30 changes giving the public. How many days does the public get? >> 90.
▶ 1:14:17>> 90 days for a huge package of 30 different things that you, I know for a fact help work on. Did you not? >> I read every one of them. Yes, sir. >> no, no, no, I'm saying you worked on. Let me be clear. You worked on a lot of these proposed rules that were enacted by the atf under the biden administration that helped save lives. Yes. >> so? So a couple of things a year. >> no, no, it's just yes or no. Did you work on. >> I'm sorry, it's not yes or no. >> it is yes or no.
▶ 1:14:44Did you work on some of the rules that the biden administration put forth to save lives? No. You did it. >> no. >> you're saying you didn't under oath. You didn't work on any of those. I'm sorry. >> I didn't work on any of the rules. Not one. >> I, I don't believe that's true. That's great. I don't believe that's true. In fact, I know for a fact that you worked on some of the rules under the biden administration. What is that? So it is unfortunate. I asked the question, sir.
▶ 1:15:08It is unfortunate that now you've been put in a position with an administration that has done everything it can to undermine the agents and the work of the atf budget cuts, uh, firing. The atf has not had political appointees in any position except the director and any administration except this administration marvin richardson, pamela hicks, jennifer ambuehl forced out or fired. And now you're put in here to put forth regulations. I want to show this that are going to make our communities less safe.
▶ 1:15:36The work that you were a part of doing and and many other people in the atf were a part of doing helped us. And I ask for a little more time here because we had three minutes to go over the last person. >> it was three minutes. >> gun violence has been going down because of the work that you helped do. >> correct. The gentleman. That was three minutes to allow the, uh, the witness to answer. >> if I can have 15 more seconds, Mr. chair, that you helped do to help end gun violence. And I know you're upset. I would be upset to, uh.
▶ 1:16:10This works. What we've been doing works. And the fact that you were sworn in. And the same day you come forth standing with industry behind you shows us, I guess, where allegiance are or where perhaps you were told if you want this promotion, the what you need to do, which is undermine the agency that you've done work in for a lot of your life. And I think it's disgraceful, I yield back, sir.
▶ 1:16:41>> may I respond to that? >> the gentleman yields. We're going to give you plenty of time to respond. But I recognize Mr. cloud from texas. >> thank you, chairman, and thank you, director, for being here. I'm absolutely shocked that the president would nominate somebody to enact his agenda as the head of an agency that he oversees due to the, uh, authority granted to him by the people under the constitution of the united states.
▶ 1:17:07Um, and so congratulations on your, uh, nomination to this post. Uh, congratulations on getting through the senate confirmation process and your, uh, robust getting to work on day one. Um, I think that's to be commended among the agencies. Um, I, I wanted to ask you, a lot's been covered on, on the, the gag order that's come down and the leak that happened.
▶ 1:17:36I just wanted to ask if any discipline action has been taken for the person who had leaked the information. >> you're talking about the goa yes no. So again sir, no one was disciplined. Uh, we looked into it. And if there was an intentional leak of any of that information, we would have submitted that to our internal affairs division for review. >> how would you determine if it was intentional?
▶ 1:18:01>> it wasn't intentional because we actually had, sadly, a significant reduction in folks in the foia staff, but also the software we used was a horrible honky software that, like many of our systems, was outdated. It was not an intentional leak. Uh, I, I have to own the mistake for the agency and for our employees, but we've taken steps to ensure that doesn't happen by buying a new software to improve that system. >> okay. Thank you.
▶ 1:18:28Um, as you know, in november 21st, uh, our office led a letter to the atf some time ago, found out that there was, uh, the out of records database, almost a billion gun records at the time. My guess is it's over that now, uh, during the biden administration, we sent a follow up letter to that and never got a response. Uh, in february of last year, we sent the letter again, uh, under the new trump administration. Um, we still haven't gotten a response to it.
▶ 1:18:58I realize at the time you were acting director, I don't know if, you know, awaiting confirmation on all that held it up, but, uh, I'd like to remind you of that and submit it into the record as well. If we could get a response on that, that would help. There are a number of questions in there that I think would be helpful in in as we're looking in the public comment period on these proposed rules in regards to how effective traces are and the like.
▶ 1:19:25And, and to your point on enforcement, I thought that was a good point. One of the, one of the things I think it's important for us to recognize is traces don't actually stop a crime from happening. It's after the crime has happened. It helps us potentially to, to, you know, find the criminal or find out what happened. Um, but, um, I wanted to ask you, uh, about, um, does the atf purchase data?
▶ 1:19:58>> uh, I'm not sure what data we, I mean, we have, um. >> like purchase records or credit card records or. >> uh, not that I'm familiar with. We have, uh. >> we found out recently that the fbi's been doing that for a few. >> years, so we had this, uh, I'll tell you, we have recently purchased a program. Um, uh, geez, I can't remember. It's, it's an ad tech type thing where it's, uh, you, uh, for example, on your cell phones, my, my cell phone as well.
▶ 1:20:23Um, based on the ads that go through your phone, you can get geolocation data. Uh, we have purchased, uh, access to that system, but we have not used it for a criminal case because we have not established any sort of policies yet on how we would do it. That system is, uh, one that's available to the general public as well. Um, it doesn't identify anyone by name.
▶ 1:20:47Uh, but it gives us, uh, I either an ip address, if it's connected to a wi-fi or the imei number on the cell phone so that we would be able to conduct an investigation. Um, it's very new for us, so we haven't used it. And we want to make sure we establish clear guidelines before we use anything like that. >> I only have about a minute left. That opens up a whole new can of worms that we'll probably have to get into at another point.
▶ 1:21:14Um, during the biden administration, the atf was doing knock and talk visits where basically they would show up on people's doorsteps. Ask them, do you have these? We have a record that you have these firearms in your house. Do you have them? Uh, I imagine the atf has stopped that practice under the trump administration. >> yeah. The only time something like that, uh, should happen is if we're following up on a suspect. >> well. >> suspected firearms trafficking investigation. >> but it was happening beyond that. Uh, yeah.
▶ 1:21:41And it wasn't related to trafficking under the biden administration. You said that in the out of business study records, all that is searchable is the serial number. I'm curious how, how what's the mechanics before an atf agent is able to pop up on somebody's doorstep with a list of what firearms are allegedly in their house. >> we won't have. >> that gentleman's time has expired. Allow Mr. scott to answer that final question.
▶ 1:22:12>> because that was happening. >> yes, representative. >> the biden administration. So how did that happen? >> we don't. So I can tell you, I don't know what you're referring to specifically, but I can tell you, for example, I get calls when I was an agent and my folks get calls daily. People either have their firearms lost or stolen and say, hey, can you please tell me what my make model and serial number is? We have no way of doing it. Uh, the only thing we do is tell folks, hey, you should go back to the federal firearms licensee that you purchased your firearm.
▶ 1:22:38And if they're still in business, uh, they'll be able to give you a copy of your 4473 so you can report your firearm stolen. So I'm not familiar with how that information. >> we thank the gentleman for that answer. Thank you. Miss. Miss ansari is recognized for five minutes for questioning. >> thank you, Mr. chairman. The epidemic of gun violence in this country is a national emergency.
▶ 1:23:02You would think that recent events like the attempted assassination at the white house correspondents dinner, would shake my republican colleagues into action, but sadly, it did not. In fact, republicans responded with even less than their usual thoughts and prayers. Instead, they offered a ballroom, a $400 million ballroom, which the trump administration is now requesting $1 billion for from the american taxpayer. A ballroom promoted by donald trump, echoed by fox news and amplified by the maga influencer machine.
▶ 1:23:32Quite literally, within minutes, it would be laughable if it weren't so deeply offensive. Because if a ballroom is your solution to gun violence, then every student in america deserves one. Or we could actually pass policies that save lives. If you want a ballroom that works, here's what it should stand for. Ban on assault weapons. Accountability for gun manufacturers.
▶ 1:23:55Licensing requirements for gun owners, limits on high capacity magazines, red flag laws to stop tragedies before they happen. Oversight of gun sales. Our kids safe in schools and public spaces, mental health support and community violence prevention that is a ballroom worth building in this country. Because the truth is, I'm rarely shocked anymore, but still outraged. Outraged that instead of action, we get distractions and it is not normal and we should not accept it.
▶ 1:24:24Before I came to congress, I fought to keep confiscated and forfeited guns from being sold back into the streets of phoenix. I did that because phoenix families don't need more guns. Cycling from evidence rooms back into neighborhoods. Since then, I've seen the federal agency in charge of responding to gun crime, being pulled off mission in a way that I think is shocking. Director sakata yes or no? Atf's core public safety mission is not mass deportation.
▶ 1:24:51It is reducing violent gun crimes, tracing crime, guns and dismantling illegal firearms and trafficking networks. Is that correct? >> to be clear, yes, ma'am. Our focus is violent crime. >> and reportedly about 80% of atf's roughly 2500 agents have been ordered to take on some sort of immigration enforcement task. Yes or no? Does that number sound right to you, director? >> it's wrong. Okay.
▶ 1:25:14During the failed minnesota immigration blitz that resulted in the murders of alex brady and renee, good new federal gun and drug prosecution fell from 77 cases to eight cases compared with the same months a year earlier, which is absolutely unacceptable. Yes or no? When atf special agents are assigned to immigration enforcement, this replaces their otherwise full time responsibilities to develop crime, gun leads, work trafficking cases or support local violent crime task forces.
▶ 1:25:47>> no, because we have no one reassigned to title eight. >> not one person is reassigned. >> not one person has been. >> so the report of 80% is absolutely false. >> that report is the cato institute. Not only is it completely wrong, it's given multiple numbers. I don't even have 2500 agents. First of all, that's number one, including me. Uh, I'm still an atf agent. I know how many agents are assigned to immigration enforcement. At max, we were asked to have 300 people available per day from the inception of title eight enforcement at max.
▶ 1:26:16When I testified in my confirmation hearing, we were at approximately 75 people a day. We are currently at 42 people a day. I keep track of that through our field operations, and it's reported up to me daily. So I know exactly how many people cato institute doesn't know anything about what atf is doing. >> so is this is this information that you can present to us, present to us in writing or in some sort of formal documentation? >> I've done that and I'll do it again. >> okay. Um, I want to focus more on arizona.
▶ 1:26:43Um, this is especially important in an issue in a state like arizona that is a border state. How many atf agents in the phoenix field division have been assigned to immigration enforcement in 2025 and 2026? And how many total agent hours has that consumed? >> I don't have that number, but I can get back to you on that. >> okay. And I want for you to commit to providing us the number of agents assigned to immigration enforcement, the number of agent hours spent in any gun crime work delayed or reduced.
▶ 1:27:11So it sounds like you are willing to put that in writing to us. >> yes, ma'am. >> okay. Thank you. The record, I believe, is absolutely crystal clear that the trump administration has made horrific choices. So I look forward to seeing that in writing. Um, because of any even one agent is misassigned or reassigned. I think that is a massive problem, given that this is a national crisis in this country. Thank you. >> gentlelady yields Mr. burleson is recognized for questioning. >> thank you, Mr. chairman.
▶ 1:27:38Um in missouri seventh congressional district, um we are deeply appreciative of the second amendment. It is widely exercised. Southwest missouri is home to what is estimated to be approximately 300,000 law abiding gun owners and their families also cherish the rights that their, that, uh, that they know that they can rest safely in their home. Um, I assure you, southwest missouri is one of the safest places you could possibly visit.
▶ 1:28:08Um, and they, I'm honored that they elected me to be the trustee, the custodian of these cherished rights. Um, and as their elected official, that's my responsibility. I want to kind of stress to you that you have a new responsibility. I know that you have worked your way through the atf. The role that you have today is a is a different role. And I want to stress that to you. Your role is now to be the watchdog over this agency.
▶ 1:28:37It's not to be the cheerleader. It's not to to make apologies for any mistakes. It's to be that go between that I can't be and my constituents can't be to be the watchdog and the safeguard of those rights. And I wanted to stress that to you. Um, because we have a lot of problems that I see, I've seen in this town since I've been up here.
▶ 1:29:00Most of the problems are created by unelected people, people that have no accountability to the taxpayers or the voters, and they simply make rules that have significant impact on the lives of our citizens. We face the heat, we get the emails. But, um, sadly, the unelected do not.
▶ 1:29:22And, and, and in your agency, we have a lot of changes that have impacted people's lives, all made by unelected, whether it was the pistol brace rule, the frame and receiver rule, the engaged in business rule, the bump stock rule, the gunsmithing changes, all made by unelected people, that we then have to respond to our constituents and try to address.
▶ 1:29:45Um, and some of the events that have happened that I think deserve scrutiny and deserve oversight on your part. It's whether it was ruby ridge, what happened at waco, fast and furious and the recent event, sad event in arkansas with brian malinowski.
▶ 1:30:01And so, director, I want to give you an opportunity to to address how you will address this kind of, you know, protecting citizens rights while also making sure that we don't make the mistakes that we've made in the past. >> good morning, sir. Thank you again for this opportunity. So you're absolutely correct. Uh, it's hard for me to, uh, not, uh, want to come here and tell you about the great things, uh, that my folks do every day.
▶ 1:30:29Uh, because I am proud of what they do. Uh, and, you know, if I, if I may, for a few seconds tell you that, you know, yesterday, uh, during a memorial at our building. I read 191 names of atf agents who've had different titles over the years who were killed in the line of duty. Uh, and I can't forget the three agents. Uh, one, uh, that, uh, two of them that are sitting paralyzed now, uh, from the neck down from their injuries sustained during, during, uh, their on duty operations.
▶ 1:30:57Uh, and, uh, a third that is significant debilities the debilitating injuries in his life for the rest of his life, from being shot in the head from a five, five, six rifle. So I know about violent crime. I've seen many of my partners shot and killed in new york city. I talked to a mother this morning who lost her son, who was a task force officer in newark, new jersey, last year.
▶ 1:31:21So I stayed on with atf when I could have retired in november, as I started to say, not because I was going to be the director, I had no clue that was going to come together or not. I stayed on because I believe in what we do as an agency, uh, in the effort to combat violent crime. And I've seen our agency in the last 18 months turn it back around to where it should be, where we keep that balance focused on protecting the public and also protecting the rights of our citizens in this country.
▶ 1:31:46I'm sick and tired of seeing people who did not commit the crimes, uh, being held accountable for violent crime that we did not commit. Uh, that board that was just posted, the one thing that didn't mention on there is holding the criminals accountable. Not once we are. I get it right. We all want to see violent crime reduced, but we can't. We can't reduce violent crime without holding the people who commit violent crime accountable. Thank you.
▶ 1:32:13And sarah, I want to guarantee you that it is my job that I want to keep this agency around, uh, to hold them accountable. And when we do something wrong, I want to make sure we never do it wrong again and hold people accountable. >> with the limited seconds I have. I sent a letter on january 15th, uh, trying to get to the bottom of and address the problem that we've had after we passed.
▶ 1:32:34And representative clyde and myself worked very hard to eliminate the tax and the process of the of the registration of the tax stamps on suppressors and short barrels and, and, uh, and we had a, a disaster happen on, on january we, we weren't prepared. There was a flood of registrations. I sent a letter. I've still not received a response. How long will it take to receive a response?
▶ 1:33:01And I would like to submit this to the record, Mr. chairman. >> without objection. >> uh, Mr. burleson, if I may. So, uh, it wasn't a disaster, but I again, I want to be clear that, uh, a, uh, we were given this mandate in july of 2025 with zero funding, uh, made significant changes. We then went into a government shutdown where we were not able to test any of the changes that we made, uh, and wanted to stay on task, just flip the switch, as we would call it on january 1st. We did.
▶ 1:33:31So, uh, and I will tell you, since january 1st, if I may refer to my notes, we, uh, as of yesterday, we received, uh, one 1,258,539 forms. And we've successfully processed 1,149,192 forms. So there is there is a backlog, but not a significant backlog. And we are trying our best to knock that down. >> it's our intention that the process should just go away altogether. But I yield back. Thank you.
▶ 1:34:00>> gentleman yields you're going to get him an answer to his letter. Yes, sir. Director. >> yes, sir I guarantee you. >> thank you. Uh, representative crane from arizona. Gentleman recognized. >> I'd just like to enter an article for the record, if that's possible. >> yes, ma'am. >> uh, article is entitled gun crime cases fall as agents shift immigration crackdown. It's very comprehensive. And I'm very deeply concerned that our witness is not being honest with his answers. >> without objection, entered into the record. Mr. crane is recognized for five minutes for question. >> thank you, Mr. chairman.
▶ 1:34:28I want to say thank you, director, for, uh, coming to testify before the oversight committee. You are the new director of the atf, is that correct? >> yes, sir. >> um, not to put you on the spot, but this is obviously important. Director, what is the second amendment say? >> uh, sir, I wouldn't be able to, uh, I wouldn't be able to. >> I'll read it because I feel like it's lacking in this committee room right now.
▶ 1:34:53A well regulated militia being necessary to the security of a free state, the right of the people to keep and bear arms shall not be infringed. What does that mean to you, director? >> well, sir, I think I'm going to be careful with this one, because I tried during my hearing to tell you that I, not you, but the members of the senate, uh, to tell you that how much atf and myself, uh, respect the second amendment, uh, the constitution, uh, and doing so, making, making sure
▶ 1:35:24We maintain that balance. There are, uh, portions of the gun control act that obviously prohibit certain individuals who have been convicted of certain crimes from possessing firearms. And I think atf, uh, make sure that we keep our focus on, uh, any infringements that would come out of the gun control act, that it stays focused on those persons, the law that should be prohibited. >> do you find it notable that our founders put that right after the first amendment? >> uh, sir, I apologize. My hearing is bad. >> it's okay.
▶ 1:35:52Uh, do you find it notable that our founding fathers put the second amendment right after the first amendment? >> yes, sir. >> why do you believe that? Our founders wanted to give the citizens the right to defend themselves? >> um, I think at the time in particular, uh, the citizenry did not have a guarantee that the government would protect them, and they wanted to have the opportunity to protect themselves against a tyrannical government. >> bingo.
▶ 1:36:17I'm glad you said that, because a lot of people, when they they think about the second amendment, they really don't look at the context of when it was written and the fact that our founders had just fought against a government. Is that correct? >> yes, sir. >> thank you. I just want to make sure that, uh, you know, we're on the same page on that.
▶ 1:36:36Have you noticed that my democrat colleagues today have focused on the influence and allegiances of yourself to the and the atf, to the nra, gun owners of america and firearms manufacturers have on you guys. Have you noticed that? >> yes, sir. >> did you notice, though, that none of them asked you about your allegiance and the influence that the constitution has on you and other members of the atf? >> yes, sir. >> why do you think that is, director?
▶ 1:37:05>> um, well, sir, I'll give you my opinion. I think that, uh, a the folks that had the, uh. Well, the one gentleman that had the discussion with me in particular didn't want to look back at the last administration when, uh, that administration carried out verbatim exactly what the president asked of them. Uh, and, uh, I worked with both, both, uh, the, the, some of the members that are sitting here behind me and the members from the nra and sfgoa whoever would talk to me in the last administration as well.
▶ 1:37:33And I wasn't demonized then, but I am being demonized now because I'm not being I'm not falling in line with what was perceived to be good, uh, today. Uh, and I think that's part of the problem that we have here. We should be focusing on the criminals, uh, not each other. We are not the people that are killing folks in our streets. And we are very close to solving that problem when we want to. I see it being done over and over, and I've seen it for the last 30 years when we hold the criminals accountable. Crime goes down.
▶ 1:38:03And I will tell you, the last administration, one of the first steps that I saw come out of doj was a letter that went out to all law enforcement personnel telling us to not charge anyone with any, any statute that carries a minimum mandatory sentence because they didn't want to see anyone put in prison for a long time. That's not the way to solve violent crime. I'm sorry. >> I want to bring up a specific case to you. Um, this one involved a gentleman named patrick tate adamiak.
▶ 1:38:31He was a navy vet. He was honorably discharged. Uh, Mr. tate is a nonviolent offender, and the items involved in his case were incapable of firing and historically treated as an exempt from the federal firearm regulation under 27 cfr and 478.11.
▶ 1:38:55He has been incarcerated since october 21st, 2022, serving a 20 year federal sentence. And I and many of my colleagues believe are disproportionately severe. For a case centered on regulatory interpretation rather than harmful conduct, will you commit to having your agency look into this case and see if anything can be done to address this mis carriage of justice? >> sir, I just I would like to let you know we have, uh, been in contact with Mr.
▶ 1:39:24Adam gray attorney. Uh, we have looked at some of the the evidence and we are working with doj. Uh, I will tell you, I understand doj is looking at the case as well for resentencing scheduled in june. Uh, with that, I don't know the specific facts on the doj side, but we are working on that as well. >> thank you sir, I yield back. >> gentleman yields. Mr. clyde from georgia is recognized for five minutes for questions. >> thank you, Mr. chairman.
▶ 1:39:51And um, thank you, director sakata for appearing before us today. Um, first, congratulations on your senate confirmation. I consider your leadership to be a new era of respect for the second amendment, and I have greatly appreciated our interactions to date, and I look forward to continuing relationship with the bureau of alcohol, tobacco and firearms and the department of justice as well.
▶ 1:40:15Um, as I'll try and keep my comments pretty tailored to the tiahrt amendment, because that's what this hearing is about. The tiahrt amendments are a series of appropriations riders, and I'm on the appropriations committee to the annual atf and fbi budgets included in some form since 2003 that prohibit the atf from disclosing the contents of the national trace center, or records collected from federal firearms licensees, except for legitimate law enforcement purposes.
▶ 1:40:42This trace data includes the chain of ownership and the sale from point of manufacture. Public release of such data risks exposing undercover officers or other law enforcement personnel to criminal reprisal. One reason the tiahrt amendment has long been supported by the fraternal order of police is that exact reason.
▶ 1:41:01Its release can also expose the identities and locations of law abiding firearms retailers, subjecting small businesses to name and shame campaigns by anti-second amendment advocacy advocacy groups. Unfortunately, in the past, atf has violated this important protection on numerous occasions, most recently in 2020 for the biden administration's release. Uh, or excuse me, atf released sensitive trace data in response to a foia request by gun control organizations.
▶ 1:41:31Despite the tiahrt amendments superseding foia having been enacted after it for the first time ever. This release included the names of federal firearms licensees, including my own business, uh, making me my business, its employees, a victim of this illegal activity. So thankfully, under your leadership, uh, director, the trump administration has ended its unjust war on on lawful gun owners and firearms businesses. But now it's the time for accountability, sir.
▶ 1:41:58Director, does atf believe that the heart protects firearm trace information from disclosure under foia? >> I think that's what the intention is. Yes, sir. >> okay. Does the unlawful disclosure of sensitive trace data in violation of the tiahrt amendment pose a risk to legitimate law enforcement investigations? >> it can. Yes, sir. >> all right. What policies or guidance, if any, does atf have now in place to ensure that tiahrt material is not disclosed to the public?
▶ 1:42:29>> the current policy would ensure that any material protected by tiahrt to include that, uh, request that would come under foia is not released, uh, and protected. Uh, again, sir, as I mentioned earlier, my apologies on behalf of atf for the inadvertent mistakes we made. Um, but moving forward, uh, you know, barring a mistake, that truly is a mistake, uh, people would be held accountable. There was there's obviously a process that we undergo conducting investigation. Uh, but I will give you an example.
▶ 1:42:58I've had a leak from an agent, uh, that came out during the charlie kirk case. Uh, that person is, uh, being recommended for termination. Uh, we are not playing around with anyone that would follow a path on their own versus one that is the legal path that atf follows every day. So if anyone, uh, is proven to actually intentionally and willfully leaked anything that they shouldn't have given to someone under tiahrt, they will be held accountable. >> well thank you.
▶ 1:43:26Now, we've already talked about the, the geo foia release being by being accidental. Um, but this other release back in 2023, um, that talked about federal firearms licensees, has anyone been held accountable for that? >> so that one, uh, sir, I think that's the one that you're, uh, it is, was under as well. Uh, that one, uh, was done under director dettelbach, uh, under his leadership in time. So none of his team is here.
▶ 1:43:51Uh, his team, uh, either left with him or some were terminated by this administration. Everyone else here at atf, uh, is not, uh, was not part of those decisions. Uh, and, and I believe it was august of 2025, we paused, uh, the deal to program, uh, which frankly, the intention of the deal to program was not to put out those names publicly.
▶ 1:44:16What that was supposed to be was letters to federal firearms licensee that were supposed to be kept private, to let the federal firearms licensee know that, hey, uh, your business, uh, resulted in x number of transactions. And those some of those transactions had a very short time to crime. None of that means that the federal firearms licensee or their business were, in part, in some part of a conspiracy with a straw purchaser or trafficker.
▶ 1:44:44It means that, hey, you may have been targeted by someone who could be a straw purchaser and they purchased a firearm. It was meant to engage interaction between atf and the federal firearms licensee to prevent them from having being victimized by traffickers. >> thank you. I have one more quick question for you. And this has to do with the out of business records, um, in the firearm owners protection act, um, under amendments to section 926. Help me understand.
▶ 1:45:11I understand that that in the obr right now is, um, recording transactions 4473 through optical scanning about four per second, etcetera, when I went to visit atf.
▶ 1:45:24Um, but yet in the farm owners protection act, it says no such rule or regulation prescribed after the date of the enactment of the firearm owners protection act may require that records required to be maintained under this chapter, or any portion of the contents of such records be recorded or transferred to a facility owned, managed or controlled by the united states or any state or political subdivision thereof.
▶ 1:45:48Help me understand how the recording of these the optical recording of these. 4473 you can have this. 4473 you can you can search them. Right. Help me understand how that is not violating the section right here. >> yeah. Again, sir, from, from our perspective, and it's something that I've been dealing with for years. And if, uh, you know, congress, the house and the senate decide that this is something that can't be done, then we'd have to change.
▶ 1:46:15But the bottom line is we don't have the space, uh, for it. I think we're receiving somewhere in the area of a million records. Uh. >> you do receive a lot. Yeah. >> so we are at this program was initiated before robert scott was any sort of, uh, supervisor at atf. And, uh, this is the way we've dealt with it, even with the optical scanning, uh, again, which only gives us a very limited access to the serial number.
▶ 1:46:39Uh, that still leaves us with massive amounts of paper records that we have to sort through and try to find a way to be able to search through in a rapid manner. Uh, when we do get those trace requests from our state and local law enforcement partners in connection with the violent crime they're investigating. >> well, thank you, director, I appreciate you being here. I look forward to your leadership in atf and your team as well. And with that, I yield back. Mr. chair. >> the gentleman yields.
▶ 1:47:06Miss, uh, miss boebert recognized for five minutes for questioning. >> thank you, Mr. chairman. And thank you, Mr. sakata, for, uh, for being here. Um, Mr. director, uh, the doj and atf announced sweeping proposed rule makings immediately following your confirmation. Congratulations, by the way.
▶ 1:47:29Um, and if finalized, how do you expect these new rules to improve the landscape for lawful gun owners? >> good morning ma'am. Thank you for your question. I think, uh, in a nutshell, uh, the goal was to modernize the rules, uh, to provide for clarity, uh, to remove ambiguity, and also to be in line with the law.
▶ 1:47:50Uh, the stabilizing brace rule in particular, uh, through court, through litigation and numerous courts, uh, basically was vacated in numerous areas, uh, and, uh, ultimately, uh, it wasn't our rule was not in line with the law. So some of the rules that we pushed forward were to get in line with the law. Uh, because again, atf regulations shouldn't say one thing and the law or the courts say another. Uh, so that was some of our intention.
▶ 1:48:19Uh, for example, uh, one of the regulations I mentioned, I believe by, uh, representative clyde was the dual use barrels. Uh, so for many years, that was a unwritten rule that atf allowed for, uh, the, the industry to utilize or repurpose barrels from firearms that were demilitarized, uh, and may have been marked as, uh, full auto or rated for full auto.
▶ 1:48:46Uh, because a barrel is made of a heavier gauge metal doesn't make that barrel a full auto firearm just because you put a heavier gauge barrel on a semiautomatic firearm. So there was things like that that were inconsistent, uh, for america's gun owners and the industry. And atf, again, should not be taking sides in this. We should just provide that clarity on the regulatory side so that everybody understands what the law states. >> thank you, director. And, um, you answered some of my other questions in there.
▶ 1:49:14So moving on, can you explain why the atf has, uh, in the past repeatedly violated, uh, the, um, tiha amendment, uh, including instances of improper disclosure of trace data through foia responses and, and other means? >> yes, ma'am.
▶ 1:49:35So I will speak to, uh, the instances that I've been discussing this morning, most specifically in 2024 under the last administration, there was a inadvertent release and we determined it was inadvertent through our own investigation and determined we had a, um, frankly, an inadequate program, uh, that was used to redact information. And when we were responding to foia, our foia staff was understaffed.
▶ 1:50:04And that release was completely marked for redaction and required a person to hit that last command to fully redact it. They never did it. >> and what disciplinary actions were were taken against the employee employees that were responsible for their. >> I'm sorry, ma'am, for those specific employees. >> as to the. >> incident I just referred to, it was determined that there was no malicious intent or intention to do that. So there was no disciplinary action.
▶ 1:50:29It was actually action against the agency to go out and buy a better program that would prevent any of our employees from inadvertently, uh, not completing that redaction. >> yes. So director, um, the tiahrt amendment, as you know, was enacted to protect the privacy of law abiding gun owners and federal firearms licenses from harassment name and shame campaigns and frivolous lawsuits.
▶ 1:50:54Um, how does the atf, uh, justify actions, uh, that, that appear to circumvent this congressional protection? >> so, um, ma'am, we've discussed some of these and some of these were conducted under the last administration, specifically under director dettelbach and his team. Uh, those folks are no longer here. Neither is the director. And, uh, obviously, we have taken steps to make sure that we keep our folks in compliance.
▶ 1:51:21Uh, I've been, uh, in, uh, full command of atf, uh, basically since april of last year. Uh, so, uh, since that timeline, uh, and under the president trump's second amendment executive order, we've done everything in our power to look at every internal policy, every regulation, uh, any proposed rule, current or in the past to ensure that we keep public safety paramount.
▶ 1:51:47But we maintain that balance of, uh, protecting and upholding the second amendment as well. >> and, uh, do you see the tiahrt amendment as an inconvenient restriction or, uh, a vital congressional, um, uh, legislation that protects both privacy and public safety? >> no, I see t hart as a critical, uh, amendment that protects, uh, public safety and law enforcement.
▶ 1:52:12And for atf, uh, tiahrt, uh, protects one of our most vital tools in our agency to be able to focus our efforts on violent crime and firearms trafficking. >> director. Again, thank you, and congratulations on your confirmation. I look forward to talking to you in the in the future. I yield. >> gentlelady yields. Mr. jack is recognized for five minutes for question. >> well, thank you very much, Mr. chairman. I deeply appreciate you convening this hearing. I think it's an important subject, and I appreciate your testimony.
▶ 1:52:43Director. Uh, just for the record, in 2022, the bureau of alcohol, tobacco, firearms and explosives, atf inadvertently sent gun owners of america a freedom of information act production containing the unredacted personal information of gun owners. As we know, we've discussed this today, the subject matter of the foia requests scandalous enough, atf's use of fbi's warrantless and unaccountable gun purchaser surveillance scheme, known as nics monitoring system. But atf's conduct, following its inadvertent disclosures just as alarming. We've discussed that at length today.
▶ 1:53:12So one of the first questions I have for you, director, is, under your leadership, you're turning a new page at atf. Does atf believe that art protects firearm trace information from disclosure under foia? >> I believe it does protect it under foia as well. >> and what do you believe congress's purpose was in enacting that provision? >> I think the intent was to protect the american citizenry, but also to protect law enforcement, confidential informants that we would be using in our investigations.
▶ 1:53:42Uh, and again, for someone that's been doing law enforcement, criminal investigative work for 34 years, uh, I understand how critical the witnesses, whether they're confidential informants, law enforcement or the public are. And if they're exposed inadvertently in any one of these cases, they're likely, especially in violent crime cases, they're likely to be killed in those matters. So we want to protect everyone in these cases.
▶ 1:54:08>> has your agency done any investigation into other prior releases of information in addition to the goa matter? >> uh, sir, I have not gone back any further. Uh, and, uh, the only thing I've been able to do, uh, in my time is, frankly, work on, uh, putting our agency in the right direction.
▶ 1:54:26Uh, we have, uh, put in further restrictions as to how we handle ourselves as it relates to not only trace data, but also you mentioned the nics, the nics system that you mentioned, the nics alert system. I, I put out a memorandum in april of 2025 where we completely revamped how we work that process. Uh, that's another critical tool that we use for violent crime and firearms trafficking investigation. That's an fbi tool.
▶ 1:54:55Uh, and that's one that's protected by law. And just as important to us as tiahrt, we don't want any of that information information released either because it contains a lot of the similar information. And we want to make sure that a critical tool like that, uh, remains in the hands of atf agents for the purposes that we were given that access in the first place. >> with respect to, uh, potential other releases of that information, do you mind providing follow up to congress? I know you said you'd look back, uh, this committee specifically. >> yes, sir.
▶ 1:55:25>> thank you. Um, and just so I understand, has atf produced your protected trace information to any agency or entity other than goa and if so, what? And to whom? >> uh, we have not that I'm aware of. Uh, but if there is any instance, I will get back to you in writing. Uh, there has been releases. Uh, Mr. biggs is not here anymore, but there was a release that Mr. biggs and I spoke about, not by atf, but one of the, uh, law enforcement account holders, uh, from an international account in colombia. Uh, and, uh, Mr.
▶ 1:55:55Biggs was very upset, as was his constituent. And we spoke in depth about that and some of the challenges we have, uh, in holding folks accountable. Um, that was a law enforcement agency that received the information, but transferred it to a political entity within their country, who then put it right out of the news, uh, in both atf and the state department, we're in a bit of a conundrum as to what we can do based on the limitations of, um, holding them accountable through tiahrt.
▶ 1:56:24>> I just want to note for the record to under, uh, to your point, the biden administration's administration of atf, the biden atf release, firearm trace data naming over 1300 firearm businesses across the country in response to a foia request, something that chairman higgins bill, which I'm proud to support, would address as the regulator of the firearm industry. Can you please speak to the impact that publicly releasing firearm trace data has on law abiding members of the firearm and second amendment community?
▶ 1:56:52>> yeah, I think, uh, trace data is critical to law enforcement operations, uh, state and local and federal law enforcement every day. Uh, but at the same note, uh, I think it's, uh, equally critical that we maintain the integrity of that information and, uh, keep it, uh, for law enforcement purposes. I think, uh, there's numerous folks that want to assemble data, uh, from, uh, those reports. And frankly, data is great, right?
▶ 1:57:18The only problem with data and I've seen over 30 years, uh, data can be manipulated to tell different stories with the same data. Uh, and I don't think it's fair to the public who have been victims of crimes, uh, or those members of the public who are not criminals to manipulate our minds with what? Something, uh, saying when it's not actually saying that.
▶ 1:57:42I think that, um, there's a lot of good people that have suffered as a result of violent crimes, and there's a lot of great people that put their life at risk every day trying to prevent further crimes. And it's wrong of data to be used in that manner by either side. Uh, to be frank, we should be holding people accountable and we should be truthful with what that data says. Those deal two lists, uh, were not designed by me or anyone else, uh, to use as a name and shame campaign, but that's exactly what they were used as.
▶ 1:58:12Uh, and that's not what the intention was. There's no, there's, it's very easy to identify an ffl that has a very large business and say, well, you're responsible for violent crime in a community. That's just not the case. Uh, when we go into these ffls, their inventories are in order. Their books are in order. They're always cooperative with us.
▶ 1:58:31As a matter of fact, without naming any of them, more often than not, if there's anything suspicious that comes to their attention, they are calling one of our local agents because of the relationship that they've developed over the years. >> I appreciate your testimony. I appreciate you working with geo to resolve that matter. Aiden and jp are great guys. I also, Mr. chairman, want to close by applauding my colleague and the front dais. Mr. clyde, I don't think there's a greater. And I want everyone from georgia watching to know a greater advocate for the second amendment than Mr. clyde.
▶ 1:59:00I've learned a lot from him and my, uh, my first term. So I'm proud to serve alongside you, my friend. Mr. chairman, I'm deeply appreciative of you convening this hearing. Thank you, I yield back. >> the gentleman yields. In closing, I want to thank our witnesses for your testimony today. And, uh, does the ranking member have closing comments or statements? Ranking member declines. I recognize myself for a couple of closing remarks. I.
▶ 1:59:25I thank director sakata very much sincerely for appearing before us today. You had an incredibly busy schedule, uh, running the agency for 9 or 10 months and then being nominated, uh, as, as director and then going through a prolonged confirmation process. And we anticipate it would be a month or so turned into 3 or 4 months.
▶ 1:59:51And you were a gentleman throughout and appearing before this committee today honored your promise to do so. And let me close by saying that, uh, the, the task that you're set to perform is crucial for our country, for the maintenance of our of our protected second amendment rights and for the protection of the, of the citizenry that we are sworn to serve.
▶ 2:00:16The firearms in america are, are arguably the most heavily regulated item in the country. And the laws are incredibly complex. And I, I feel confident that you and your team are up to the task. I do look forward to working with your officer on h.r. 1698, the law enforcement protection and privacy act, which we have discussed.
▶ 2:00:44Uh, I look forward to adding any sections that can enhance the effectiveness of that legislation as we attempt to move it through congress. Um, with that and without objection, all members are minded to have five legislative days within which to submit materials and additional written questions for the witness, which will be forwarded to the witness if there is no further business.
▶ 2:01:13And without objection, the subcommittee stands adjourned.