▶ 0:04:23Witness table check, mic check 1 2 3 4 5 6 7 8 9 10 11 12 sitting further back.
▶ 0:04:31Okay, here's the chair. Check 1 2, check 1 2 3, check 1 2 3 4. You're both hearing it okay? If so, if you could give me some sort of sign. We got one thumbs up. Do we have two thumbs up? We got two thumbs up. You're going to Hollywood. All right, thank you.
▶ 0:05:18One final check test.
▶ 0:31:15All right, we'll figure this out. Uh in accordance with committee rules, I ask unanimous consent that Representative Goodlander from New Hampshire, our newest member of the committee, be permitted to participate in today's subcommittee hearing. And without objection, it is so ordered. Um good afternoon, everyone. The Subcommittee on Technology Modernization will now come to order, and the chair may declare recess at any time. I want to thank our witnesses for joining us as we continue our oversight of the technology used by VA in processing benefit claims.
▶ 0:31:44In February, we focused on the digital GI Bill's troubled implementation and examined how acquisition reform could set VA up for success by ensuring they have the right people doing the right jobs from the very beginning of the planning process. In April, the full committee held a hearing examining the administration's success in reducing the disability claims backlog. A large part of these efforts has involved an increase in the use of automation and technology.
▶ 0:32:11We're here today to explore to what extent these technologies fulfill their purpose to quickly, efficiently, and correctly process compensation and pension claims, especially following the implementation of the PACT Act. Our focus today is not as much the software as it is how the VA manages that process.
▶ 0:32:32Just like the digital GI Bill, we see a massive disconnect between the VBA, the Veterans Benefits Administration, and the Office of Information and Because these two are siloed, the claims process remains outdated and complex. With that being said, the question we should always ask ourselves is whether the process is working for veterans.
▶ 0:32:53I had the privilege of having Secretary Collins in my district recently, just a few days ago, and he was reminding all the stakeholders we met with that the one singular client of the VA is Last month during our field hearing in Grand Ledge, Michigan, I heard directly from veterans that it is not working in the way that we need it to work. And uh Ranking Member Bisinski was there with me. I appreciate you coming to my district and seeing a little firsthand of of the folks that I have the privilege of representing.
▶ 0:33:23Instead of a working system, the men and who served face an incredible burden getting the benefits they earned. They are forced to become their own private detectives, couriers, and administrators. They're expected to track down their own files, physically carry documents between private doctors, and VA offices, and manage a bureaucratic maze just to get VA to live up to their end of the deal.
▶ 0:33:44We know this with the often-times fragmented record-keeping that veterans have, physical files, paper, and other things that become difficult to manage. It was the outdated paper-based process that VA first began digitizing back in 2009 that led to that led to today's Veterans Benefits Management System, or VBMS for short. Now, back in 2009 is when I got my first iPhone. So, we've certainly come a long way since then.
▶ 0:34:13Today's hearing will evaluate VBMS's performance over the years and how the platform has evolved as it struggled to keep up with the influx of claims. Back in 2022, Congress recognized that VBA's aging IT infrastructure was in no way prepared to meet the increased demand of claims. So, why this committee required VA to put together a plan on how it would serve our veterans through technology.
▶ 0:34:37In 2023, VA VA unveiled its 5-year modernization plan in accordance with section 701b of the PACT Act. The last time this committee heard an update on the 5-year plan was in December of 2024 before you all had the privilege of having me as the chairman of this subcommittee. Today we will hear from VA about their efforts and how this plan has guided the agency through more than 147 modernization efforts at VBA.
▶ 0:35:07This proactive oversight framework was enacted to ensure VBA's IT modernization efforts were strategic and that VBA wasn't running around with a blank Thankfully, this administration has been focused on ensuring that it is executed And as we come to the end of the plan 2027, we must ask the question, how has technology evolved and what will the future look like and how VA processes veterans claims?
▶ 0:35:36We cannot and should not repeat the mistakes of past VA IT projects and give VA a blank check. Our job on the committee is to ensure VA is meeting the expectations of the law. In this case, the PACT Act. If a policy needs to be changed in order to align with modern technology, VA should be informing Congress of those recommendations so that we can get it right the first time.
▶ 0:36:04In that same vein, when technology advances so quickly, policy and the intent of Congress must act as guardrails to ensure that veterans data is protected. On this subcommittee, we will continue to ensure VA is using the future of technology to enhance the veteran experience and not replace the human deciding factor in the claims process.
▶ 0:36:24I want to be very clear with veterans who are watching and veteran stakeholders who are participating, we will make sure that technology does not replace human deciding factors in veterans claims. Artificial intelligence and automation are terms constantly used in this space, often in interchangeable ways, but they are distinct and different features. I want to be clear, we will make sure that there are strong guardrails where no veteran claim is fully decided by AI or automation.
▶ 0:36:55There must be quality assurance policies to ensure that the use of AI and automation always have a human deciding in that process. Thank you all again for being here today. I look forward to your testimony. And with that, I yield to Ranking Member Biskupski for her opening statement.
▶ 0:37:12Thank you, Mr. Chairman, and good afternoon to everyone. Thank you to our panelists for being here. Um on August 10th, 2022, President Biden signed Ranking Member Takano's Honoring Our Pact Act into law. The Pact Act, which was the largest expansion of veterans benefits since the GI Bill was passed in 1944, expanded eligibility to 3.5 million veterans.
▶ 0:37:36In passing this bill, Congress fulfilled its promise to veterans to honor their service and recognize toxic exposure as a cost of Part of the investment from the Pact Act was a commitment to modernize the IT offerings at VBA, particularly in the disability claims process, and the modernization of the Veteran Benefits Management System, or VBMS.
▶ 0:38:01VBMS itself is a unique system, one that touches veterans, VA employees, and veteran service officers to varying degrees. Each of these groups were promised an all-encompassing system to ease the disability claims process, a system with the better with better warm touchpoints for those involved, and with quicker results for veterans. And unfortunately, what we see today seems far removed from that all-encompassing goal.
▶ 0:38:29Just as we know one pee can ruin a good night's sleep, so too can one bad update ruin a well-intended but highly interdependent claims modernization My staff has have heard from numerous frontline employees that the system itself is clunky and heavily degraded, leading to significant downtime, hindering employee productivity, and slowing the process the processing of claims for veterans.
▶ 0:38:56Some employees noted losing up to 1 hour each day because of these lags and crashes. Despite these issues, claims examiners are still expected to reach their daily quotas by processing claims as excluded time is granted inconsistently. Um increasing the risk of error and burnout for employees.
▶ 0:39:18Further, I hear from employees that the so-called fixes that VA has pushed, like automation and pilots of artificial intelligence tools, often produce incorrect information, compounding issues and slowing production. Some claims examiners have told my staff that they would consider themselves more of an unpaid software tester than a claims examiner. Ultimately, AI should be used as a tool, not to augment staff.
▶ 0:39:48And that tool should be assessed and improved regularly based on feedback of those that use it every day. Unfortunately, employees' concerns and feedback are routinely ignored and dismissed. In 2015, GAO found VBMS to be rife with system defections, and that VA has no process to integrate upgrades and improvements based on user satisfaction.
▶ 0:40:12Almost 10 years later, VA finally launched a tool to solicit feedback from its employees, and the results echo much of what I have highlighted from frontline staff today. Much of my frustration in the subcommittee has been that while VA needs world-class technology to provide veterans the services and benefits they have earned, it cannot exist without ensuring the department has the people and the processes they need to make that goal a reality.
▶ 0:40:41With the daily challenges that claims raters face, paired with a hostile environment that I believe comes from the secretary's leadership, it has been established. I'm alarmed, but not surprised the VA has lost over 1,100 veteran claims examiners just this fiscal year alone. As a whole, since January 2025, VA is down nearly 2,700 examiners and 120 100 IT specialists.
▶ 0:41:10There is no world in which that does not impact the speed at which veterans receive their disability claim or the effectiveness in VA's ability to implement a modern cloud-based IT system for VBA. And to get ahead of this talking point, the lack of personnel cannot be solved by letting the computer do the work. In many instances, AI and automation systems make things harder for claims processors.
▶ 0:41:35VA routinely punishes its employees for not meeting production standards, yet fails to give them the reliable tools with which to do their jobs. That is unacceptable and will only lead to a further exodus of employees. Now, we typically don't have VSOs join us in the subcommittee, so I'm extremely glad we have representatives from the foreign of ex- excuse me, Veterans of Foreign Wars and the Paralyzed Veterans of America here with us today. The veteran perspective is often lost.
▶ 0:42:05While oftentimes Chairman Barrett and I and my fellow subcommittee members are discussing IT systems and processes like supply chain modernization and EHRM. I genuinely hope that the VA witnesses on the first panel will stay and listen to the insights and experiences of the veterans and service officers on the second panel. I look forward to today's discussion and I yield back.
▶ 0:42:28Thank you, Ranking Member Bozinski. And um I will now introduce our witnesses from the Department of Veteran Affairs. We have Mr. Robert Orificey. Did I say it correctly? I practiced, so hopefully I got it right. From the VA's Office of Information and Technology, comp- accompanying him, we have Mr. Derek Herbert, Acting Chief Production Officer at the Veterans Benefits Administration. From the GAO, the Government Accountability Office, we have Dr. Sterling Thomas, Chief Scientist on GAO's Science and Technology team.
▶ 0:42:58If you can all please stand. Uh I will ask you to raise your right hands for the oath. Do you solemnly swear under penalty of perjury that the testimony you are about to provide is the truth, the whole truth, and nothing but the truth? Thank you, and let the record reflect that all witnesses have answered in the affirmative. Mr. Orificey, you are now recognized for 5 minutes to deliver your opening statement on behalf of VA.
▶ 0:43:23Chairman Barr Ranking Member Bozinski and distinguished members of the Thank you for the opportunity to appear before you today. I'm joined by Mr. Derek Herbert, Acting Chief Production Officer with the Veterans Benefits Administration. Congress passed the PACT Act to ensure that veterans exposed to toxic substances receive the benefits and health care that they have earned. Recognizing the technology investment required, Congress mandated a 5-year modernization plan.
▶ 0:43:50We submitted that plan in March 2023, and implementation is now in its fourth year and on track. Since 2022, the PACT Act has driven historic surge in veterans seeking benefits, and more than 3.5 million PACT related claims have been received so Technology modernization has been critical to delivering faster, more accurate outcomes.
▶ 0:44:13As one measure of that progress, the rating backlog has stayed below 75,000 since May 6th of this year, a decrease of more than 73% since January 2025. That is the result of better systems, smarter workflows, the dedication and the dedication of our workforce.
▶ 0:44:31Let me highlight a few areas of First, we are modernizing the Veterans Benefits Management System, the core platform our claims processors use every One of our most impactful advances has been digitizing more than 1.2 billion veteran claim evidence documents.
▶ 0:44:48And our smart search technology now lets processors locate relevant information within the veteran's file in moments, saving hours of manual review and supporting more consistent, accurate And while we use artificial intelligence to help our employees make faster and better decisions, I want to be clear on this point. Every disability claim is decided by a trained VA employee, not by AI or These tools support human decision-making. They do not replace it.
▶ 0:45:18For example, the toxic exposure risk activity memos, once completed entirely by hand, now use AI to partially populate the system with verified data linked to the source documents. That has cut the time to complete a memo by up to 40%, allowing us to complete PACT Act eligibility much faster. Second, we have improved how veterans experience the process.
▶ 0:45:42We have simplified our online forms, and veterans now receive updates by email, mobile app notification, and text message with engagement rates above 50%. When we need more evidence, plain language requests help veterans understand exactly what to submit.
▶ 0:45:57And in 2025, we launched the Discover Your Benefits tool, a self-service resource that helps veterans, service members, and their families explore benefits across the federal government, especially around this time of Third, we have strengthened our infrastructure while reducing costs.
▶ 0:46:14Our corporate database, the central repository for veterans records, has been migrated to the cloud, improving security, resiliency, and our ability to Through data-driven management of those resources, we have already avoided $16 million annually in cloud costs, with efforts underway to target another $7 And since 2023, we have decommissioned 16 legacy systems, including the 48-year-old benefits delivery network, with 14 more planned for retirement by
▶ 0:46:44In conclusion, this modernization has already delivered real results. Faster claims, stronger reliability, better decision support for our workforce, and a more seamless experience for veterans and their We remain committed to completing this Mr. Chairman, thank you for your continued support of programs that serve the nation's veterans. My colleague and I look forward to your questions.
▶ 0:47:08Thank you, Mr. Ruffsee. The written statement of Mr. Ruffsee will be entered into the hearing record. Dr. Thomas, you're now recognized for 5 minutes to deliver your opening statement on behalf of GAO.
▶ 0:47:19Chairman Barrett, Ranking Member Mr. Zinsky, and members of the subcommittee, thank you for inviting me to today's hearing on technology innovation for the Department of Veterans Affairs Disability Compensation Program. This program provides billions of dollars in disability compensation to millions of veterans and their families. VA must be able to make timely and accurate decisions about the amount of compensation a veteran receives as a matter of fairness to veterans and ensure the program is achieving its intended results.
▶ 0:47:46As you know, GAO is the non-partisan watchdog for Congress, and we've been watching VA's disability compensation program closely for decades. We have four VA areas in our high-risk list. VA management of disability compensation claims, IT modernization, acquisition management, and health care, all areas of concern to this committee. New technology, including but not limited to AI, is a big part of this modernization, as well as a growing focus for GAO.
▶ 0:48:14We started a science and technology unit in 2019, which includes a team of data scientists. We also have a unit devoted to information technology and cybersecurity, and last year my colleague Karen Carol Harris from that team testified before you on VA's use of artificial intelligence. My message today is threefold.
▶ 0:48:35First, as VA pursues new technology to process disability compensation claims faster, it must avoid the types of shortfalls we've observed in the past with technology and with managing this Second, as VA increasingly uses AI, we have concerns about this usage outpacing And third, VA needs a workforce with the appropriate skills to apply AI and other Regarding my first point, GAO has a large body of work on VA's challenges
▶ 0:49:05in managing the disability and compensation program and implementing new technology. I want to be clear, VA has responded to some of these challenges and made real improvements. However, our prior work has shown that despite these efforts, VA did not consistently achieve its goals for improvement. A main reason for these shortfalls was VA not fully using leading management practices, such as establishing goals, using quality data, and monitoring performance.
▶ 0:49:31These practices are also needed to achieve VA's goals for using AI. My second point, VA, like other federal agencies, is rapidly increasing its use of generative AI and plans to use AI to help process disability compensation It also reports that an AI tool called the payment redirect fraud model can help identify requests to change a veteran's direct deposit that are likely to be fraudulent.
▶ 0:49:56I'm optimistic about some of these uses, but VA must be thoughtful about the deployment and oversight. For example, VA must pay close attention to the data, how it can support and improve disability programs, and how we can avoid causing harm to our AI poses a particular threat a particular challenge because it follows statistical patterns from large data sets. But veterans have experiences and needs that different from the differ from those patterns often dramatically.
▶ 0:50:27As VA develops the system, we as VA develops the systems, we need to ensure it uses data sets that represent them. If we don't, AI can lead to harms like denying compensation to deserving GAO's AI framework of key practices can guide VA's approach.
▶ 0:50:45Broadly, AI is still in early stages of development and implementation, and rapid deployment without deliberate focus on governance has already led to unintended Before pouring data science on the problem, we need solid, reliable ground truth data and human in the loop to ensure data reliability and application of the technology. GAO has an AI accountability framework which lays out these and other principles and key practices.
▶ 0:51:13My third and final point is that harnessing innovation also requires a federal workforce that has the right But VA and other agencies continue to face barriers in hiring, managing, and retaining staff with advanced technical This is another area where GAO has made recommendations, and we have explored innovative big picture solutions like establishing a digital services academy.
▶ 0:51:36Technology, including AI and other data science tools, offers VA opportunities to save taxpayer money and to continue to honor the obligation we have to our GAO believes that sound management and governance, reliable data, and a skilled workforce are critical for the federal government to realize these Uh Chairman Barr at Ranking Member Businski and the members of the subcommittee, thank you, and I look forward to happy to respond to any
▶ 0:52:03Thank you, Dr. Thomas. The uh written statement of Dr. Thomas will be entered into the record, and we'll now proceed to questions. And I will start by recognizing myself for 5 minutes, and then we'll go through the uh members that have um are here today. Um the first question I have, uh Mr. Ruffa C, if you could just um for the benefit of myself and and others, can you give me some examples of the difference between AI and automation and how they are distinct from one another while perhaps trying to achieve the outcome we're going for?
▶ 0:52:34Yes, so so thank you for that question. So, when we talk about automation, we're talking about uh very explicit tasks that are rules-based, they could follow a a very explainable set of logic to a complete accomplish that task, like ordering um um mail from one point and having that delivered into the system, or prepopulating a form with data that's set from a base of of rules.
▶ 0:52:58When we look at AI, we're looking at various models, we're looking at some models which look at predictions and patterns to really make recommendations forward from data sets that are available. And then we have generative AI, which is really using that to generate a response uh or some piece of action from that. And so, those are three cat- three different categories and their distinction.
▶ 0:53:20Um is AI being used in a chat function with veterans as they're going about interfacing with the VA in different ways right now? Are there um You see a lot of these on customer service platforms and things like that. Is the VA using that technology to communicate with veterans right now?
▶ 0:53:39I do not believe we're using AI in two communicate with in chats to veterans at this point in time.
▶ 0:53:44Okay. Um assuming that maybe in interest of the VA at some point, are we able to get assurances that there would be a a disclaimer of sorts or a notice to veterans that this is being done using an AI feature?
▶ 0:53:59Yeah, that's a great question and I will commit to taking that back with our AI governance to make sure that that is a Thank you. Um I wanted to next ask you about a situation that came up in my district speaking with a one of the county VSOs in in my district.
▶ 0:54:17They had a veteran that came to them who had filed a claim with 14 unique um situations within it or 14 separate and uh he was using the quick submit system that the VA has. Um now he didn't have one of those uh Adobe subscriptions to fill out the PDF and everything else.
▶ 0:54:41So, he used an online tool that he downloaded for free and it offset some of the formatting by enough to throw off the system. Uh it flagged it as being incomplete and it sent it to a VA employee for review, which is ideally what should happen is that a human takes over to look at it. But then the employee entered only the very first condition into the system, not the remaining 13 other conditions that were claimed.
▶ 0:55:09Um and obviously that set him back significantly and it became very difficult to overcome that. Um where within the VBA's metrics or error reporting or accuracy logs would you know, 13 failed submissions, where would that be counted and where would it be um accounted for?
▶ 0:55:29I Thank you for that question. I'll defer to my colleague, Mr. Herbert.
▶ 0:55:33Thank you, sir. The So, for quick submit, my my understanding of that specific issue, right, is that the the automation worked as intended. The the pattern recognition on the front end of the of the actual 526 failed the initial review, which then defaulted over into human review.
▶ 0:55:53The the compounding problem with that specific issue is that it's a combination of automation doing what it was intended to do, diverting to a human for involvement, but then compounded by the employee making the mistake of not capturing all of the different contentions, 14 instead of just the one. Regarding the uh the error reporting, I'm happy to take that back where that specifically would be counted.
▶ 0:56:22Um, yeah, that would be helpful as we kind of work through that. Um, I am curious, you know, I'm sure the situation isn't unique to one veteran in one county in my congressional district, you know, based on the hundreds of thousands of instances that this will be spread across the country. What are we doing to guess anticipate the ways in which this might not work?
▶ 0:56:44Cuz it's designed a certain way, but if veterans are using tools available to them because they don't have a expensive PDF subscription service, how are we anticipating what that failure would be and how can we correct it?
▶ 0:56:58That's a great question, and we're currently looking at how PDF overflows work when it exceeds the field size to make sure that the system could make sure it is showing that information at the correct point. So, that is a feature work that's under development right now to correct that error.
▶ 0:57:12Is there a look at like, you know, a lot of Americans file their taxes using tax software, TurboTax, other things like that? You're not in there filling out the IRS PDF form. You're filling out a series of questions that are guided, and then that on the back end fills out the IRS form that is submitted after you review it for accuracy and everything Is there a look at moving toward a design of that type so that you're not having that kind of error take place?
▶ 0:57:39Yeah, that's a great question and we are we have several forms already on va.gov that work in a guided interview fashion where they are walked through the But for quick submit in particular, that is a place where it's intended to be more a bulk upload. A lot of VSOs and our partners use that to pre-complete the form and submit them in in more of a bulk fashion. And so that model is not necessarily being I don't believe it's utilized in quick submit. But for va.gov, we are certainly looking at
▶ 0:58:04Okay. Thank you. Ranking Member Businski, you're recognized for 5
▶ 0:58:08Thank you, Mr. Chairman. Um Mr. Ruffini, how often would you say that the that VBMS has system-wide or regional
▶ 0:58:21Thank you for that question.
▶ 0:58:23And could you speak up just a little closer to the mic? Sorry. Thank you.
▶ 0:58:26Thank you for that question. How often does it have that regional
▶ 0:58:31I would say probably once a month, but not usually very prolonged outages. The team's very responsive and be able to to quickly turn around anything. And so, you know, I would say around once a month.
▶ 0:58:44Okay. And just to that point you made, do you know how long typically the outage is?
▶ 0:58:52I do not have that information off the top of my head, so I'd be happy to take that back for the record.
▶ 0:58:55Okay. And then for individual level crashes, how often does that happen?
▶ 0:59:01Thank you for that question. When we look at tickets and not individual crashes, but people submit tickets when there's anything that they're encountering with the tool that they don't understand or they believe it's an issue and it takes us around 8 days on average to turn around those individual help desk tickets that are filed.
▶ 0:59:17Um one question I'd have is, you know, would this be something that we could have more of a conversation on how the VA is tracking these types of outages and and then how long the outages are, just both from a regional but also an individual position, like how often that takes place.
▶ 0:59:34I'd be happy to work with members of your staff to put together a briefing on things and then as a response for VBMS.
▶ 0:59:39Okay, that'd be great. Um and we've heard from staff that um they are losing, what we've been hearing is up to an hour a day with these crashes and lags, which often impairs their ability, obviously, to reach their mandated quotas. When employees experience issues with VBMS or ADS, whether it's a degraded feature or errors in the draft drafted case contentions, where does VA direct them in order to get resolution on these
▶ 1:00:08Uh that's a good question. So, most of these tickets we direct our frontline staff to submit uh incidents in our service management module, which is ServiceNow, and then those tickets get routed to the appropriate staff, whether that is VBA or OIT uh staff to resolve those tickets.
▶ 1:00:23Mhm. Okay. And and Dr. Thomas, just to follow up, in light of of these issues and concerns from frontline employees using ADS, um do you believe that VA's method for receiving and addressing feedback and functionality concerns is appropriate or do you have any
▶ 1:00:42Um so, we haven't looked specifically at that program, but our recommendations, you know, kind of follow along the same ones I talked about earlier is, you know, developing standard management practices to identify, you know, how quickly things are resolved, how quickly you're communicating and identifying your core um as well as, you know, dealing with underlying technology challenges. You know, these good management practices are really the fundamental component to making these technology programs work.
▶ 1:01:07Okay, thank you. Um Mr. Herbert, I understand the demand to review and decide on claims in a timely manner is important. Um however, it is concerning to see VA routinely punish its employees for not meeting production standards, though the department has failed to give them reliable tools with which to do their jobs. How is it determined if employees receive excluded time and adjustments to their quotas in cases of these crashes?
▶ 1:01:35Thank you for the question, ranking member. This is really really the the purview of our office of field operations, but what I can absolutely tell you is that the automation capabilities that we're deploying are not intended to replace employees. And I also want to be very clear that in disability compensation, automation is not making decisions on claims.
▶ 1:01:54What we really strive to do is look at those really high-volume, highly administrative tasks, focus our resources and really basic automation on those capabilities, so that we are really supporting and augmenting the productivity of our employees. We It is the the shared concern of all of us where we do not want to put anything that is not usable in front of an
▶ 1:02:17Yeah, cuz obviously they might they're wanting to meet their quota, but if the system crashes, how do they account for that in relation to their quota and not get penalized for it? I think is the the bigger concern. Um just to follow up, from what I've heard from employees is that this time is not granted consistently in cases of regional or individual level outages, how is VA working to standardize this approach and best support its employees facing degraded interfaces in the
▶ 1:02:46I would say oftentimes that the the outages may not manifest themselves the same way across the entire enterprise of 56 regional offices. So, we we absolutely do need to work with the office of information and technology on, as outages occur, rapidly identifying to what extent and who exactly is impacted, so that we can have an accurate logging of who truly is impacted and offline, unable to serve
▶ 1:03:14So, it's on a case-by-case basis.
▶ 1:03:16Yes, ma'am.
▶ 1:03:16Okay, I yield yield back.
▶ 1:03:19Thank you, Ranking Member Brzezinski. I missed a call from the Battle Creek VA appointment line. So, if you're watching today, I'll call you after this hearing is over. Um but uh with that, Mr. Luttrell, you're recognized.
▶ 1:03:30hope that works.
▶ 1:03:34Thank you, Mr. Chairman. Uh thank you all for being here today. So, in the build-out of the IT system or the modernization of the IT system, where all of the veterans' data is moving through the system, trying to get the benefits kind of under under control, but processed completely. Mr. Herbert Mr. Tom Dr. Thomas, you mentioned quality of data.
▶ 1:03:58And the way that I understand it, which is a great point, the way that I understand when a veteran's when a veteran's information enters into the system, it has to go through a process where the rating is the VSR has to go into the Department of Defense, find all the information about the veteran, push that thing along. If another benefit is added, it it starts completely over. I have no idea why the VA hasn't said all stop.
▶ 1:04:25If we are doing a modernization that's costing billions of dollars because we need clean, refined data on a veteran, why can't that start in the Department of Defense? Why can't we have like I don't know who your counterpart is, sir, Mr. Riffsy in the Department of War Department of Defense Department of War and say, "Okay, hey, look, there is no doubt that when you leave the service, you're going to be a veteran.
▶ 1:04:50And we are having so much trouble inside the VA collecting all this information, this clean information, to push this information through for veterans and their benefits, can't you tee that up for us? Because as the struggle that we have with employees, Department of War doesn't have that problem. And we can ease the pressure on the VA if it's done on the front side as the transfer happens onto the into the VA space and say, "Okay, here we go." Why don't we do that?
▶ 1:05:22That's a great question. I look forward the confirmation of our CEO. When listening to his nomination hearing, he had this as one of his top things bringing over that record from DoD W and starting to really have that solid record to build from. I agree that this is something that's very important. Starting with that data from DoD
▶ 1:05:40it's 2026. We figured this out. And we're trying to develop a language models that can that can do all this. We're spending billions and billions and billions of dollars on our side and the Department of War is doing the same thing on their And I hear it. Trust me, I got it. Hey, well, we don't communicate. We don't like to talk to each other. But inevitably, what happens on the backside is the veterans are the ones that are suffering. And it seems like as the United States government, we could kind of figure this thing out. I have said it once and I'll say it 10,000 times.
▶ 1:06:09I have no idea why you can't before you leave active duty, sit down with somebody who has your entire All your medical, all your certificate, everything and just drag that bad boy from one computer to another. Call the VA and say, "Hey, Lieutenant Luttrell is inbound. Do you have him?" Yeah, I got him and it's all of his everything every one and zero that corresponds to him is in the system and the benefit package is teed up ready to go if he needs it.
▶ 1:06:36But we keep kicking the proverbial can down the road every single year trying to figure out another lane to walk in, it seems like in the VA when the Department of War can easily hand this off to us that There's veterans in the room. Just think about the onboarding that happens when you when you sign that line and swear in. Everything from start to finish and how they what they do.
▶ 1:07:02And then when the when it's time to leave, you know, the the bullet train doesn't It's ready, set, go. Oh, and by the way, here's all your stuff. And if you don't have it, you got to find it later, and good luck with that because you're no longer a military asset, you're a civilian again, and we really don't have time to help you out. And then that's that's punched that's kicked off to you guys. And then the And then the VA has got to go grinding through to try to find the information for the veteran.
▶ 1:07:27So, when it comes to the PACT Act, you would think that the military would be great about writing down and documenting where we all were, everything that we had And when the VA tries to find that, the Department of War is like, "No, we don't have it." And then you got the veteran in the middle saying, "Yeah, well, I was there." So, why can't we have this guy I don't have a question for you. This is just This is 5 minutes for me to rant. So, I appreciate it.
▶ 1:07:51It just seems so for the secretaries, the deputy secretaries, and all of you to say, "Hey, look, create a language model that communicates between the Department of War and the VA. Take the veteran out of the equation, do all the lift form, and when they're out, they're ready to go." I I I just really wish that would save I don't know how many billions of dollars, how many months, weeks, and years of time from start to finish. Mr. Chairman, I yield back.
▶ 1:08:22Thank you, Mr. Luttrell. Uh Ms. Goodling, are you recognized for 5 minutes? Welcome to the committee.
▶ 1:08:30Thank you. I'm so glad to be here. Thank you to our witnesses for being here today. Congressman Luttrell, I couldn't agree with you more. I was looking at um the VBA's annual benefits report, and I'm curious about this point Congressman Luttrell is making. So, am I right that this past year you've brought um around a half a million new recipients into the compensation program?
▶ 1:08:59Thank you for the question, Mr. Herbert.
▶ 1:09:00Yes, thank you for the question, Congresswoman. This year we have I'm not exactly sure the number of
▶ 1:09:06Or in fiscal year 2025.
▶ 1:09:08of new claimants, but this year
▶ 1:09:10but this year we have received already 2.3 million claims. I don't know to what extent those are new applicants.
▶ 1:09:18Well, to the extent I'd be curious and we'll follow up with some additional questions for the record, but to just get a better understanding of your new compensation recipients, how many are directly out of active duty and could we cut down on some of the bureaucratic processes. I do want to ask you about claim examiners and Dr. Thomas, I'm delighted that you're here. I wish we had a GAO witness in every hearing in Congress.
▶ 1:09:43Um I want to ask you about your 15 outstanding recommendations for VA, which you mentioned in your written testimony. Can you walk us through what additional GAO recommendations have not yet been implemented and can you highlight for us the ones you'd prioritize for this
▶ 1:10:02Yeah, so I in my testimony I talked about the areas in our high-risk list. Those are the ones that we identify as priorities. Um and then in addition, yeah, we have 15 outstanding um uh um issues that have either been partially addressed or not addressed at all.
▶ 1:10:18Um it would take a long time to go through them, but the foundational component to each one of these comes back down to making sure you're identifying clear goals for your programs, ident- if you're particularly in the AI and automation space, designing pilots that have specific conditions that meet those goals so that they actually do serve this purpose you're after, and define the limitations of how you use it. Um a lot of the technology modernization management issues we've identified come down to those basic things.
▶ 1:10:47Thank you. Um can I ask how many claims examiners or processors are currently employed for that focus on um on compensation, on disability compensation. How many are are currently employed by VA?
▶ 1:11:05Thank you, Congresswoman. I don't exactly have the the exact number.
▶ 1:11:09Do you have a rough estimate?
▶ 1:11:11At this moment, I I believe there are about uh 30,000 or so employees in VBA.
▶ 1:11:16And how many claims What's the role of a claims processor, would you say, just when it comes down to it? Mission critical, right, in delivering benefits to veterans?
▶ 1:11:25Absolutely mission critical. Really, I think it's divided into two primary categories. One would be the acquisition, the development of all of the pieces of evidence needed to adjudicate the claim, and then of course it would be the actual adjudication of the claim.
▶ 1:11:39So, this is not something that can be entirely outsourced?
▶ 1:11:46By tech By technology?
▶ 1:11:49No, no, in disability compensation, and to be clear, uh technology is it will never be intended to uh to automate a claim for disability compensation
▶ 1:11:59So So, how many processors, claims processors, do you have on staff at the VA right now? Can you get us that
▶ 1:12:06I'll be happy to.
▶ 1:12:07Have you reduced the number of claims processors since last January?
▶ 1:12:11I can certainly take back the
▶ 1:12:12You don't know if you've if you've lost in numbers?
▶ 1:12:15Well, generally speaking, VA uh has reduced the number of employees, but what I would also say is that we are also currently hiring right now.
▶ 1:12:23So, there there are open there there's open hiring activity happening across VA right now.
▶ 1:12:30Understood. I I share Congresswoman Mizinski's concern that she raised at the outset of this hearing. We are losing experienced federal employees who have been career civil servants, who have done this hard work, uh work that cannot be outsourced entirely to technology.
▶ 1:12:48We're losing that experience in the workforce, and it's leading us to have less accurate adjudication of So I we will look forward to receiving from you the numbers so that we have a clearer picture about what's happened to this absolutely critical portion of the VA workforce. Sound good?
▶ 1:13:12Yes, Congresswoman. We'll take that
▶ 1:13:14Okay. Thank you. I yield back.
▶ 1:13:17Thank you, Ms. Goodlander. Yields back and you'll be excited to know that we, I think in virtually every committee hearing we've had someone from GAO present at our at our hearings. So we we do take that We're going to do a 3-minute second round for for this panel. I'll recognize myself for 3 minutes. Dr. Thomas, just to kind of continue on some of the discussion you were having.
▶ 1:13:41Obviously, you've got level of expertise in this and one of the one of the things that we're wrestling with is overlaying a very advanced technology, you know, automation and artificial intelligence that is still kind of on the the leading edge of what it could become. It's not really fully refined yet.
▶ 1:14:05And yet it's being laid on top of legacy systems that are kind of based on on a paper intake type of It says in my notes here rapid automation models over rigid legacy databases. So maybe that explains it more in scientific terms. Why is it critical to establish an independent testing and performance management framework in that environment?
▶ 1:14:32Well, just as you I mean, thank you. That's a a great question and it's something that is happening across a lot of agencies, but specifically within VA. You know, the challenge is just as you described. You're putting this advanced piece of technology. It's looking at all of that information that's paper-based, OCR to some level of quality. OCR means it pulled the actual text off the page.
▶ 1:14:54That's where you're looking at the photo of the word and you're pulling that as like an image of
▶ 1:15:00the words on the page.
▶ 1:15:01to get that understanding cuz the large language models is one example of of AI is looking for that language. That's what it needs to make the determination of what is actually said in that document. If you don't have that high-quality data, it's going to be broken from the beginning. It's the same garbage in, garbage out you've heard from other other types of automation tools.
▶ 1:15:20So, it's critically important that you have a testing and and and really piloting program where you can first of all validate that the tool does what the vendor or developer says it actually does. It produces a result that you can rely on, depend on, and actually makes uh the adjudicator's job easier. That's the challenge of some of these tools is if they have to spend a lot of time actually correcting the mistakes of the AI, is it actually making their job any better?
▶ 1:15:48And that's what you should find out from a well-designed study. Uh thank you, Mr. Ruffus. I got a couple of quick uh questions for you before I have to yield back. Uh number one, is the electronic health record upgrade at the VA going to allow that import of information more directly from the Department of War over to the VA automatically? Will that help with this claims process?
▶ 1:16:12And then, I know you were serving as co-chair of the team that wrote the blueprint for this 5-year IT um Was there any um anything put in there around the ingestion of records and materials? Um I'm hearing that that may have been absent and that's something that I think speaks to some of the issues we're having with getting these records set in such a way that would um expedite that process. Thank you.
▶ 1:16:41So, thank you for those questions. In terms of the the HR rollout, we are looking at APIs between the benefit systems and the EHRM Oracle rollout. And so, that will due to facilitate that data exchange and make it easier than it currently is to to pull some of that data. We also have a lot of work that's ongoing with the O W that is automating a lot of the record pulls with SCR and other files. So, that is also advancing.
▶ 1:17:04In terms of your other question, if you're talking about the the the bill goods for kind of the case the documents behind the case, that is part of the the plan data was one of the pillars of the 701B modernization plan. We have progressed with getting a lot of the data that was needed from the O W to make the toxic exposure determinations that was previously absent from the records that we were getting from them.
▶ 1:17:29And so, a lot of our progress in that space has been focused and centered around the data that was needed to make those decisions around toxic exposure.
▶ 1:17:38Okay. Thank you. Look forward to following up on that. I appreciate it. Ranking Member Businski, you're recognized for 3 minutes.
▶ 1:17:45Thank you, Mr. Chairman. Mr. Orafice, can I ask you a follow-up question? You'd mentioned that employees, it takes about an average of 8 days for an IT ticket to close. It's my understanding that employees are submitting tickets when they are constantly getting kicked out of the system or when ADS is populating incorrect information. So, 8 days is too long.
▶ 1:18:09What advice would you have though for a VBA employee expected to What are they expected do in cases like this?
▶ 1:18:18Thank you for that question. And so, there's a process for being able to escalate these tickets when they produce a work stoppage and an inability to work a claim and get that through. And so, I recommend they work with their their team leads there to make sure that ticket is being escalated and that will get attention to that ticket for closure faster. And in terms of ADS escalation, I would turn to my colleague Mr.
▶ 1:18:40I would say and thank you for the question. I would just say generally the process would be the same. We have several different types of feedback mechanisms to capture when employees run into issues. That would be a situation where that employee would escalate through the different channels at the regional office that they've run into an issue and then we could take appropriate action based on the details of the
▶ 1:18:59Yeah, I guess that the concern I would just voice is that it's very dependent on the leadership that they're escalating it to while there's an 8-day you know system issue that needs to be addressed. So it's just something that it'd be great to work on closing that 8-day window. Um Mr. Herbert my next um question actually just for you is earlier you mentioned the VA plans to always have a person making decisions. Yet just a month ago VA decided to fully automate DIC, burial, and other end-of-life benefits.
▶ 1:19:29Why has VA chosen to disregard the automation and modernization framework we laid out in the PACT Act?
▶ 1:19:35Thank you for the question. My focus specifically is disability compensation. So if I wasn't clear previously to be clear now it is for disability compensation claims automation would not be making I'll yield back.
▶ 1:19:54Thank you. Ranking member Mr. Reschenthaler yields. Mr. Luttrell.
▶ 1:19:57Thank you Mr. Chairman. Is it the older generation veterans and that is that the are we having more success inside the VA with benefits with the the younger generation, my generation and forward and the older generations having the problems or is it still a challenge for up until today?
▶ 1:20:19Uh thank you for the question. I will defer to Mr. Herbert for that information.
▶ 1:20:23Yes sir, thank you thank you for the the question. I'm not sure that there is a general demographic pattern. I think really the the one thing that is true that affects claim regardless of demographics is are all of the different record sets available as rapidly as possible to process the claim. So, whether you are a
▶ 1:20:44Well, as an Well, as an example, if you were a post-World War II Korea veteran and your file your military personal file was destroyed in the the fire at the National Archives in 1973, there would be a supply chain dependency on acquiring the record.
▶ 1:20:58But those are very small numbers.
▶ 1:21:00Well, well, it is now, but
▶ 1:21:01up for our remaining I like to say my four our forefathers and mothers, but up until now.
▶ 1:21:08That That's absolutely true. Another example might be private medical records. So, depending on the provider, we we oftentimes have different levels
▶ 1:21:19Is the private medical record the one that's slowing the process down more than the this active duty service
▶ 1:21:28I think it's a combination. So, where we're at with service records, we recently just piloted with IT the ability to connect to the Department of War system of record to automatically pull military personnel files. We automatically trigger service treatment record requests also from the Department of War. We receive about 2/3 of STRs within 1 day. So, there are still There's still a lot to do on the Department of War uh side. However, we are seeing pretty significant progress.
▶ 1:21:57I would say that private medical records We receive about 8,000 of those requests a day. So, there is absolutely a dependency on the faster that we can get those private medical records, the faster we can move the claim out of the evidence-gathering cycle and get that in front of a claims processor to make a
▶ 1:22:15Those aren't just community care providers. That's just a medical record period across whomever they may be
▶ 1:22:19That's correct, sir.
▶ 1:22:20Which means they need to hand-walk that from their provider over to the VA?
▶ 1:22:25Well, ideally we're Ideally, we're not hand-walking. We we we really don't want to put it that administrator
▶ 1:22:30You'd be interested what I hear in my district, sir, but I I agree with you. Go ahead.
▶ 1:22:32Yes, sir. Really where we need to get to and where automation holds promise is as that request comes in and as the veteran authorizes us to go out and get those records for him or her, we are able to automatically trigger that initial response. The challenge comes into play where private providers there's a variable amount of time that some providers respond very well, some providers don't. And so we cannot advance the claim unless we've done our due diligence to acquire those records.
▶ 1:23:02the records. All right. Thank you, Mr.
▶ 1:23:05Thank you, Mr. Luttrell. Ms. Golden Lander for 3 minutes.
▶ 1:23:08Thank you, Mr. Hurwitz. I just wanted to come back to the choke points and the delays that you're seeing. Can you walk us through the most common paperwork gaps or the most the most uh delays that you're you're seeing in the system when it comes to cuz it you've just helped me understand your argument about automation and the role it can really play. Have you chronicled these anywhere? Where where are the main choke points?
▶ 1:23:36Thank you, Congresswoman. Uh yes, I'm not sure that it is uh chronicled, but but the but they the data absolutely suggests and identify that 80% of our claims right now are in the evidence gathering phase. So we have about 600,000 claims that are pending. 80% of those are in evidence gathering. That evidence consists of a variety of different records. That could be military records from the National Archives, it could be military records from Department of War depending on period of service.
▶ 1:24:06It's private medical records. It's any number of those pieces of information that we need. There's no question that evidence gathering is the place where resources need to be need to be leveraged and where we're leveraging automation to help accelerate that
▶ 1:24:22So, 20% of your pending claims are currently before examiners who are
▶ 1:24:32They are either in pre-evidence gathering, so the initial development. So, we'll receive 20,000 pieces of mail today. That would be before evidence gathering. 10,000 of that would be claims. That's before evidence gathering, and then you have 80% in evidence, and then you have the remainder that would be at some stage leading up to adjudication and award.
▶ 1:24:51And of the 600 pending claims, do you have a count on how how many of these are moving through a process that's almost entirely digital? What percentage of the claims have some hard copy element to them?
▶ 1:25:11I don't know that number offhand, but we absolutely can identify the number of claims we're receiving, whether it's through va.gov or through quick submit, or um or the the files or the excuse me, the claims that come in through paper. I don't have that in front of me, but I can certainly get that for you.
▶ 1:25:27Well, we'd love to work with you on this. Um Congressman Luttrell and I both serve on the Armed Services Committee, so anything that we can do to help cut the red tape and make this a more workable system, we want to work with you to do that.
▶ 1:25:39I'd welcome the opportunity to to work
▶ 1:25:43Thank you. Yield back.
▶ 1:25:45Thank you. Um Representative Goodlander yields. Um so, thank you for our panelists on our panel one. Appreciate you participating. Look forward to hearing back on the uh remaining questions that are out there, and I'd like to um bring up our second panel for uh the second half. Thank you.
▶ 1:26:17Here we go. Get that out of here. All right. No, that's okay. We're right Quick shift change.
▶ 1:26:34Yeah, yeah.
▶ 1:27:06All right. Thank you Thank you for our folks on our second panel and thank you for members who are able to participate in the second panel. members on our second panel today, we have Mr. Caleb Max, president and CEO of the National Artificial Intelligence Mr. Jeremy Yanawee. Did I say it? Did I get it?
▶ 1:27:30It's Vianueva, sir.
▶ 1:27:32Say it again.
▶ 1:27:36Okay, Vianueva. Associate Legislative Director for Paralyzed Veterans of America. And finally, we have Mr. Greg Orton, Deputy Director for National Veteran Services for Veterans of Foreign Wars. So, as the witnesses, please stand and raise your right hands. Do you solemnly swear under penalty of perjury that the testimony you're about to provide is the truth, the whole truth, and nothing but the truth? Thank you. Let the record reflect the witnesses have answered in the And thank you all again for attending today. Mr.
▶ 1:28:06Max, you're now recognized for 5 minutes to deliver your opening statement on behalf of NAIA.
▶ 1:28:11Good afternoon. Chairman Barrett, Ranking Member Bozinski, and distinguished members of the subcommittee. Thank you for this opportunity to testify today. My name is Caleb Max. I am President and CEO of the National Artificial Intelligence Association. NAIA, the premier association representing hundreds of companies dedicated to driving responsible AI innovation and adoption across industries, including the federal government.
▶ 1:28:35Before the invention of the automated teller machine or ATM, every bank customer had to wait in line for a human teller, regardless of how simple their transaction was. A customer depositing $20 waited behind customers with much more complex transactions that took far longer to come to process. ATMs changed that. Simple rules-based transactions were automated. Tellers are freed to handle what actually required human judgment. And I don't think anyone argued that ATMs replaced tellers in a meaningful or harmful way.
▶ 1:29:03They made the whole system faster, more accurate, and more accessible. The approach that makes this work is called neuro-symbolic AI. A combination of rules-based logic that the federal government has used since the 1970s and modern AI capable of reading, interpreting, and routing complex If an automated system cannot approve of claim based on available evidence, if it can approve a claim based on available evidence, it does.
▶ 1:29:28If it cannot, it flags the the claim for human review with the evidence already organized and the relevant gaps identified, the human always maintains the loop. The human always has the final word. This is the model that the VA needs. Not AI replacing people, but AI handling what does not require human touch so the VA employees can do do what they do best, which is supporting our American I want to address a concern directly that I know is in this room and has been mentioned already.
▶ 1:29:58The AI will replace the humans that approve veteran claims. It will not and it should not. Augmentation of work with technology is not a threat to the workforce, it's a force multiplier for it. And for veterans waiting months for a decision that determines their access to care and compensation, that difference is Which is why statute matters. Today, AI governance of veteran affair benefits at the VA moves lives mostly in contract That approach has three flaws. First, safeguards vary from contract to contract.
▶ 1:30:27Second, they expire when the contract does. And thirdly, Congress has no systemic visibility into whether the AI governance and standards are working. OMB guidance sets a baseline, but memorandums can be revised or withdrawn. Congress should elevate these safeguards into permanent department-wide law applied to every AI system that touches a veteran claim. From the standpoint of the AI industry, clear statutory requirements are not a burden, they are a roadmap.
▶ 1:30:54When companies know the rules on development, deployment, transparency, benchmarking, traceability as defined by the customer, in this case the VA and the VBMS, they build to that standard and deliver measurably better results. Without defined standards, every vendor interprets the requirements differently and bias creeps in whether intentional or not.
▶ 1:31:15So, at a minimum, every AI claims-related AI system should be benchmarked on accuracy against claims with known outcomes, failure rates with automatic escalation to human review, bias veteran bias across veteran populations and workflow traceability of every AI-generated summary to its source source documents.
▶ 1:31:34Before I close, I will mention that the Albany VA Medical Center is actively exploring a pilot concept of a solution which coordinates a veteran's health care journey from prior authorizations, scheduling, medical record exchange, medical claims, and provider payments. Their pilot concept offers lessons directly applicable to improving VBMS. The Albany VA Medical Center solution includes neuro-symbolic AI component which processes prior authorizations.
▶ 1:31:59I I this up because there is a structural problem that no amount of good tech solutions can overcome on its And I would be doing the subcommittee a disservice if I did not name it plainly. New AI tools often die on the table of implementation because of perceived risk of the implementation often outweigh the benefits for contracting and program Congress has the authority to change those incentives through procurement reform, budget flexibility for proven AI transitions, and safe harbor provisions for good faith AI pilots just like the one in Albany.
▶ 1:32:30In closing, Julius Caesar once observed that experience is the teacher of all things. The more VA employees and veterans interact with well-designed AI tools, the more trust is built. The goal is not to mandate adoption, is to create enough successful experiences with artificial intelligence that resistance becomes the exception rather than the rule. Veterans have earned the right to benefit system that operates at the speed and accuracy that modern technology makes possible.
▶ 1:32:56And AIA and its member company stand ready to partner with the Veterans Affairs Committee and the Veterans Affairs Agency on an AI strategy with clear milestones, accountability measures, and a road map that treats AI not as an experiment, but as the operational background of a modern benefit system. So, thank you, and I look forward to your questions.
▶ 1:33:14I ended it on the dot. Thank you. Appreciate your testimony. Mr. uh you're recognized for 5 minutes uh for your opening remark. Oh, and uh Mr. Max's uh opening statement will be entered into the record as well. Thank you.
▶ 1:33:31Chairman Barr, Ranking Member Bosinsky, and members of the subcommittee, I appreciate the opportunity to appear before you today on behalf of Paralyzed Veterans of America to discuss VA's ongoing efforts to modernize their benefits IT systems post-Pact Act. Throughout the country, PVA employs 74 national service officers, or NSOs, in 73 offices who work tirelessly to help secure benefits to our nation's veterans free of charge.
▶ 1:33:57Due to the complex nature of our members' conditions, our NSOs are some of the nation's experts in VA benefits, especially when it comes to special monthly compensation and other ancillary Using VA systems, NSOs can submit claims on behalf of the veteran, input evidence, track the claims process, review files, track VA payments, and other tasks. This is a capability that non-accredited agents do not have.
▶ 1:34:22Chief amongst these systems is the Veterans Benefits Management System or While NSOs have mostly read-only access to the system, it has significantly improved how a veteran's claim is handled and how questions can be However, some of the modernization and consolidation efforts have not led to the drastic improvements promised and it can be argued some changes have set the claims process While I could list several functions that veteran service organizations have repeatedly asked to be improved, for the sake of brevity,
▶ 1:34:52I'll mention a couple. First, PVA recommends that VA create a process to quickly and easily remove dependents from a veteran's claim after death or divorce. While significant improvements have been made to add dependents onto a veteran's award, it is in still an overly lengthy and burdensome process to remove a dependent and will almost always create an overpayment that the veteran will have to pay back. This is no way to treat a grieving veteran or survivor.
▶ 1:35:21In the same vein, we ask that a new process be added to stop payments to veterans who choose to go back onto active duty. this current process is not automated and there is no specific form for them to fill out. It often leads to the creation of a debt to the veteran and any veteran who has chosen to return to duty to serve our country deserves better. But our principal focus today is to draw Congress' attention to how VA is using automation in in claims process.
▶ 1:35:52While PVA supports using new technologies to enhance the capabilities of VA and improve the experience of veterans, we are wary of the overuse of automation and the problems that it can When VA started automation efforts on DIC claims in May of 2020, they made assurances that it would not automate the decision-making process and that end-to-end automation was not going to take place.
▶ 1:36:16However, a VA OIG report from April 2026 revealed that not only has there been end-to-end automation, but that the quality review for these claims was less rigorous than the steps traditionally processed claims undergo.
▶ 1:36:31The same VA OIG reported report noted that out of 8,100 automated decisions, at least 8,000, or to put it another way, nearly 99% of them contained deficiencies, either legal or Making the problem even more grievous, the 2% granted the benefit erroneously, and these were for survivor benefits.
▶ 1:36:56Now, a service officer will have to field calls from surviving family members to explain to them why they are now losing this benefit and may possibly be in debt. This is unacceptable. Entitled or not, a veteran's grieving loved ones deserve so much better. In conclusion, Mr.
▶ 1:37:17Chairman, while PVA is supportive of efforts to use new technology as a tool to help smooth out the claims process, it should be remembered that AI and automation are just that, And while a chainsaw is more effective than an axe, if not used properly, it can also be more destructive. Thank you once again for the opportunity to present our views on VA's disability claims process.
▶ 1:37:42We look forward to continuing our work with you to ensure that VA systems help and not hinder a veteran's path to their earned benefits. And I would be happy to answer any questions you may have.
▶ 1:37:51Thank you, Mr. Villanueva, and your written statement will be entered into the record and I look forward to working with you as we sculpt policy to achieve what you're talking about. I know my office is working on drafting policy now and we'd be happy to engage other members of the committee on that as Mr. Orto, you are now recognized for 5 minutes to deliver your opening statement on behalf of VFW.
▶ 1:38:15Thank you, sir. Chairman Barr, ranking member of Basinski, and distinguished members of the subcommittee, on behalf of the Veterans of Foreign Wars of the United States, thank you for the opportunity to testify today regarding the modernization of the Department of Veterans Affairs.
▶ 1:38:31The VFW recognizes that VA has made meaningful progress over the past decade in reducing backlogs and transitioning from paper-based systems to digital However, modernization must go beyond simply converting paper records into electronic files. Service members, veterans, their families, and their accredited representatives still face significant caused by the fragmented systems that do not fully communicate with one another.
▶ 1:39:01While the Veterans Benefits Management System, or VBMS, was a major advancement when first implemented, it currently operates more as a deposit depository or repository than truly integrated case management system. The system is 16 years old and it's time to take a serious look at VBMS for an VA employees who navigate VBMS on a daily basis somehow make it work for them and the veterans that they serve.
▶ 1:39:32both accredited representatives and VA employees often are forced to navigate multiple disconnected platforms for all claims, including appeals, caregivers claims, and claims in This fragmentation creates unnecessary delays, duplicate work, inconsistent visibility into claims activity, and increased risk for avoidable errors and missed evidence.
▶ 1:39:59It is an ecosystem of disconnected programs that cause frustration for both and those working in that system. It works, but so did my Chevy Vega back in the day. It got me from work to home. It was smoking, the radio cut in and out, and I hoped the engine didn't blow every time I turned it on.
▶ 1:40:18The VFW does believe that service members and veterans deserve a modernized system that provides real-time visibility, integrated communications tools, and seamless coordination across all VA benefit lines and the appeals processes. Modernization should improve transparency and usability not only for VA employees, but also for veterans and their advocates who use that system every day.
▶ 1:40:48The VFW also recognizes the growing role that automation and artificial intelligence may play in improving administrative efficiency and reducing repetitive workload issues. we strongly emphasize that automation and AI must remain a tool that assists VA employees, not replace them.
▶ 1:41:09Veterans claims involve complex medical evidence, legal standards, and deeply personal circumstances that require human judgment and For that reason, all AI-assisted products should be reviewed by a qualified VA employee before any decision is made.
▶ 1:41:29Additionally, robust quality assurance and continuous oversight are essential to ensure these systems remain accurate and compliant with laws and policies that apply. Without proper safeguards, automated efforts could spread rapidly across thousands of claims and erode veterans trust in the system.
▶ 1:41:52As Congress and VA continue to modernize efforts under the PACT Act and related initiatives, the VFW urges policy makers to remain focused not only on speed and efficiency, but also on integration, transparency, workforce support, and the overall veteran experience. Veterans deserve systems that are reliable and accurate.
▶ 1:42:16Chairman Barr Ranking Member Bostinski, this concludes my remarks and I am prepared to answer any questions you or the members of the subcommittee have. Thank you.
▶ 1:42:26Thank you, Mr. Orto, and your testimony will be entered into the hearing record. Uh we're now going to move on to questions and I'll recognize myself for 5 minutes. Uh Mr. Villanueva, your testimony um really emphasized the really uh significant hurdles that veterans encounter while navigating the VA claims process. And I know uh your organization spends a great deal of time helping veterans to navigate that.
▶ 1:42:55Uh we know that the Social Security leverages a qualified health information network to automatically put millions of medical records in real time uh to pull them in in real time and fast-track them for consideration for uh Social Security determinations. And the VA is already the single most active participant in that network today.
▶ 1:43:18If the VBA were to adopt this identical proven automated model to eliminate the manual record uh collection process, how much would this lighten the veterans burden to get their claims approved in your estimation? What do you say?
▶ 1:43:34Uh thank you, Mr. Chairman. That is a great question. Um you know, I know that for many NSOs when they're, you know, explaining this to the veterans and and having them try to bring in outside medical records in, it is a hindrance not just for um getting the claim done, but psychologically to the veteran, right? Who has to now try to think like is there some medical records that I forgot? How many offices, how many different doctors, how many different hospitals have I had to go through?
▶ 1:44:03You know, and now that we're going into, you know, uh we're now in 2026, where almost all medical offices that are out there are using some forms of electric electronic medical records. To be able to use that and tap into that would be uh of great significance um not just for like the VSOs, but for the veterans themselves. Um would you say that's the single biggest um barrier for claims is the accumulation of the records at this point? And the organizing of those?
▶ 1:44:33It could be. It could be. Um you know, I don't think that there's any single, you know, uh portion of the process to to point out, but I would say this. Uh like I said, when it comes to the the psyche of the veteran, having them, you know, go from the NSO, go back to get those medical records, and then actually come back, that is probably one of the hardest things for an NSO to control because it is completely out of their realm.
▶ 1:44:57Once a veteran goes home and they have a hurdle or they hit something, and already in the back of their mind, they're kind of second-guessing whether or not they should be putting in this And they don't want to go through the hurdles, especially for the first time VA uh you know, applicants. You have to understand like getting them back into the office to finalize that And by automating that, I I think it would be a a world uh of to help them to come back in to finish that claim and to put in there for their benefits.
▶ 1:45:26Okay. Thank you. And for you or Mr. Ortego, just um asking your opinion on how much of the accumulation of records is from the Department of War versus outside civilian doctors that may have been an intervening, you know, practitioner from the time you left the military till when you file your claim? Um which is the bigger issue that you
▶ 1:45:52Thank you. Yes, so the the accumulating their private medical records is a significant challenge for veterans, especially those who are rural veterans, who are trying to now establish a claim. And as my colleague said, then trying to get them back into the to see the NSO is an issue. So, getting those private medical records Department of War seems to be doing pretty good for the benefit delivered discharge as far as pushing those records in.
▶ 1:46:23Okay. So, it's more on the fragmented nature and in to your point, I think, Mr. Villanueva about every medical practice nowadays has an electronic health record system, but they're all very different and they don't all speak to each other and they don't all consolidate well together. Uh Mr.
▶ 1:46:40Max, do you think there is an opening there to have an automation or AI model that could kind of synthesize these things in a way that would make them readable um for that accumulation of of records in a way that is um digestible for for
▶ 1:46:58I would think so. I mean, I will say whenever it comes to health records and we deal with this a lot outside of you know, Veterans Affairs across AI is HIPAA laws and health care records. The data the heartbeat of AI is is the data and a lot of our companies because of so much regulation in that in that area for good reason for the most part um makes that sort of talking to each other of the systems is complicated um and a lot of approvals necessary.
▶ 1:47:22Even though the veteran would be giving consent for their medical record to be, you know, transmitted this way.
▶ 1:47:30would go through like what who's the, you know, what system is going to go into that database actually extract it? Is that tied to the veteran? Do they have an account there? Do they have permissions? Have we identified that individual? Um, it gets a little tough on the back end. It is possible. Certainly the tools exist, but HIPAA laws and others do make it a little Thank you. Uh, ranking member Mr.
▶ 1:47:49Thank you, Mr. Chairman. Um, Mr. Ordo, um, thank you for joining us here today. Um, and thank you for continuing to stand against any cuts to veteran Um, your testimony discusses the initial excitement around VBMS and having an all-encompassing system, but as we're learning that in reality isn't really what it's turned out exactly to be.
▶ 1:48:13Um, I am curious how often are you navigating outside of VBMS to get pertinent information for a claim? And then my second question for you would be in addition to that, what are what systems would you appreciate seeing incorporated into the platform?
▶ 1:48:31Thank you, that's excellent. I really do appreciate that because um, we are seeing where we're having to navigate out of the VBMS system in order to gather evidence or to find out what's going on with the claim. Um, one of we were we're talking about QuickSubmit just a little while ago and QuickSubmit is one venue that veterans have to uh, submit the claim. Well, sometimes it gets hung up there and so we're looking for the claim.
▶ 1:48:58The veteran told us that they submitted the claim or we submitted the claim through uh, QuickSubmit and then we're not seeing it go all the way through. Well, the help desk there uh, says that okay, well, at one point they can no longer help us. Talk to your regional office, the VA regional office. The re- regional office doesn't have that information. So, we're having to go back [snorts] into quick submit to try to find uh do some forensic evidence finding to find out what's going on with the claim.
▶ 1:49:28So, that's one part. The other one is appeals. So, if you want to do if you want to look at a Board of Veterans Appeals, it's not in VBMS. You have to go into the remnants of vehicles or um Caseflow in order to get into and see what's going on into the uh claim What about the uh the program of conferences of assistance for family caregivers? Um the the caregiver program. If they want to do an appeal, there's nothing in VBMS for that.
▶ 1:49:57So, these are folks who have now been denied the caregiver program. So, we're doing the forensics. Okay, can you give me some information about that? Maybe we can go into the VA's Caprice system to try to find uh and that's case by case to try to find information so that we can be able build an appeal or see if that's a viable to do. So, we are going out of the VBMS system to gather this information.
▶ 1:50:22Would you have any advice for us on, you know, how you think we could make it better, though? Yes, thank you. I I do. I think that um there needs to be a a conductor of the orchestra. So, there's all of these systems that we have um and they're taking it piece and what we're seeing is they're taking it piecemeal.
▶ 1:50:45We think that, kind of like EHRM, somebody needs to lead the way and oversee the operation in order to integrate it correctively uh correctly. Um so that we can now see uh like Corporate DB is a system that's outside of VBMS. But Corporate DB is something that um causes changes to a person's um last name.
▶ 1:51:12So, we'll get I'll do a BDD benefit delivery discharge claim for somebody, put it in as their name, and then corporate DB VA system somehow changes it because it's a different name that they have. Well, this person's been using that same name for 30 years. Why now in the VA system is it being changed? And then trying to get that changed is an issue. Um, and then once it does get changed I had just recently I had a a female get it changed.
▶ 1:51:40We were able to do it, and then when the decision was made the the name was changed again for them. It causes a lot of frustration especially from females who are coming from um, domestic abuse situations.
▶ 1:51:53Sure, I can imagine. I've got one more minute. I'm going to try to sneak in another question. I do want to say it's so wonderful to have our VSOs here, um, Mr. Ordo and Mr. Villanueva. They should both hear appreciate that. I think you add a unique perspective as we spend so much time talking about these IT programs, but to to hear from you on how veterans interface with it is really helpful. Um, Mr. Ordo and Mr.
▶ 1:52:15Villanueva, VA's Office of Inspector General recently released a report where it voiced data privacy and patient safety concerns with VHA's use of generative AI. How did these concerns and risks track over it over into the VBA space? What have you heard from your membership regarding the use of AI and automation in the disability claims process?
▶ 1:52:41Uh, thank you Madam Ranking Member. That's that's a great question. I think one way to to conceptualize this and how some of our members or just veterans as in general would look at at uh, slip-ups like that um, when it comes to you know, people's personal is that the average veteran that is out doesn't really look at it as a VHA/VBA. They just look at VA.
▶ 1:53:07And when you lose credibility in one part, you're going to get it and it's going to affect the other, right? So, any of these, you know, losses of trust from the VA has a ripple effect that goes throughout all of our members, whether or not there it's has keeping them from going to seek help or whether or not it's them just not wanting to seek their benefits because they lost that trust.
▶ 1:53:30Thank you. I'm out of time. I I'll yield
▶ 1:53:33Thank you and and totally agree with you if a veteran has a um violation of trust in one part of the VA, they're going to blame the entire uh agency, of course, and and I think that's natural to expect that they Um Ms. Goodlander for 5 minutes.
▶ 1:53:49Thank you. Thank you all for being here today and for your really helpful testimony. Mr. Ortal, I want to start with you and this has come up in the conversation, but one of the things that surprises me the most about the Veterans Benefit Management System is really one of the great misnomers in government cuz you really would think that this was a portal where you could go and manage the benefits.
▶ 1:54:16But, talk to me a little bit about how in the course since 2009, this system has developed up not around a user center not around a veteran-centric model. Um tell us about how that has impacted the work of your important
▶ 1:54:33Well, it's it's be come So, it's not a five alarm fire for us, but it is something that is a constant issue for us to work within what is supposed to be the Veterans Benefit Management System. So, you're supposed to see everything or And we're working outside of those systems.
▶ 1:54:55So, it's a sense it's a source of frustration for us and the veterans because the veterans then they see the remnants of what is in VBMS through which is poorly laid out in itself. Uh so, the frustration that the veterans have because they don't know what evidence is going into VBMS or what evidence may not be in VBMS, uh it is a source of frustration for us.
▶ 1:55:19So, when you say that, you mean you don't even know what VA, you don't have a veteran through one of your VSOs does not have visibility into what actually has been inputted into the system on their behalf.
▶ 1:55:33Yes, so uh the veteran talking about the veterans themselves and they're the ones that uh ask us, "So, what evidence what medical evidence are they seeing in there? Is there something additional?" Like when the Department of War sends fragmented files over to them, well, the veteran doesn't see any of that information, so they don't know what's going on with that. So, all their they have va.gov. va.gov is disjointed as it is.
▶ 1:55:59Um they So, there are things that they can't see, so they ask us so that we can look into it for us. Exams, something as important as exams, they don't know what exams are going to be had until um an examiner uh sends them a letter or calls them on the phone and says, "We need to schedule you for exams." But, they don't know if that's complete once they do those three or four exams. So, is that done?
▶ 1:56:23They're shooting blind.
▶ 1:56:24Yeah, exactly.
▶ 1:56:26Yes, correct.
▶ 1:56:27Which is totally preventable and should not be happening to our veterans.
▶ 1:56:32Um Mr. Villanueva, thank you for your testimony and thank you in particular for highlighting this April 2026 Office of the Inspector General report. It's extremely concerning. To your to the point about the conversation earlier on automation, it really does this raises questions about how many end-to-end automated systems exist within VA right now.
▶ 1:57:00whether when a claim is being a veteran knows or a family member knows um that this automation was used in the adjudication process. So, is it your view that Congress should by statute um we need more visibility into how automation is being used end to end and when it's impacting What is your recommendation to us to get better
▶ 1:57:27Well, that that is a great uh question, ma'am. And there's there's a few ways, of course, oversight oversight oversight. I I think automated claims, especially at the very beginning of this, has to have more oversight than just the regular claims process. Um because of just just what we, you know, highlighted in our in our written testimony. We do think that there are ways to use AI and automation.
▶ 1:57:53Um as a matter of fact, there's a couple ways that we've been, you know, batting around about working on the remand churn and how AI and automation might might actually be able to help that. But, you know, in in these cases where you're actually talking about like the decision-making process um yeah, no, like we do not believe that automation, you know, or AI functions should even be giving recommendations on what uh an RVSR or VSR, you
▶ 1:58:23know, some of the the people who are doing these claims because as we talked about or you guys talked about earlier on in this hearing, with a lot of the, you know, loss of experienced workers you have unexperienced people taking that and they will use the recommendation given to them by the automation and take that as that's what I'm supposed to be doing instead of using, you know, their experience to say like, "No, this is this was actually wrong." And then garbage in, garbage out.
▶ 1:58:53And when you have garbage claims coming out, it's going to cost the government a lot of taxpayer funds.
▶ 1:58:59Well, thank you. I yield back.
▶ 1:59:01Thank you. Um it's good lady yields back. Um thank you to our uh second panel. Appreciate you participating today and we look forward to following up with you as well as we work toward, you know, improving these outcomes for veterans. Uh we're now going to move on to uh closing statements. So, I want to yield to uh ranking member Ms. Brown for her close.
▶ 1:59:18Thank you, Mr. Chairman. Um I appreciate today's hearing to discuss VBMS's modernization and how we can support veterans getting timely, accurate, and complete benefits. I wholeheartedly believe that VA's employees must be better engaged in assessments of what workflows, policies, and the tools that that are there to support them. Unfortunately, I do not see this being the case in this current program, but I hope to see VA's continue VA continue to course correct here.
▶ 1:59:47Um I believe we must acknowledge the immense efforts undertaken by by VBA employees, especially as the department has already lost over 2,700 claims examiners since January of 2025. As Secretary Collins um under for I'm sorry, excuse me, former under secretary for health recently noted VA's employees are one of its most precious resources.
▶ 2:00:12They deserve a commitment of support from the secretary and this body for the work they perform day in and day out. Thank you and I yield back.
▶ 2:00:21Thank you, ranking member Ms. Brown. Now, I want to thank um all of our witnesses for appearing today and thank you all of everyone who joined us for this hearing and thank you to members who were participating today as well. I really appreciate that. I think we learned a few things in uh testimony today. One resounding that was clear is the technology is quickly evolving and it's vital that VA joins 21st century.
▶ 2:00:44Um my wife used to work for the, uh, state of Michigan, uh, and worked in one of these kind of complicated systems that was updated and patched together, and she said one of the benefits of, like, one of the ways that you would become a high-performing employee is if you could figure out the workarounds to the system because it wasn't flowing in the way that it was supposed to.
▶ 2:01:08So, they would often share comparison the comparisons of how you got the system to do what you needed it to do by working around the process that was embedded within it. And we hear about that within the VA with systems like VBMS that are compartmentalized in different ways, are kind of based off the paperwork process, and are not driven by the technological capability that we have today. And as we look forward into the future of what we need to do, that's what I think we need to bear in mind is how is the end user going to use this?
▶ 2:01:39How is the veteran going to benefit from it? Uh, too often in government, we look at what we are doing in the form of outputs, not outcomes, and I think we need to shift our focus away from strict output-based metrics. How many did we process? What was this, you know, system done, and things like that. What is the outcome? And to the point I made in my opening remarks, the outcomes are the veterans that we are seeking to serve through the department.
▶ 2:02:07So, instead of looking at metrics driven driven by this piece of that process and and the outputs, what are the outcomes? How many lives were changed? How many veterans received benefits that they hadn't had before? How many are receiving health care that they didn't have before? How many are having their lives improved by the benefits that they've earned that we've committed to them as a solemn process from our country in recognition of the service that they've done. So, um, obviously, we've got a lot of work ahead of us.
▶ 2:02:36Uh, AI comes with a lot of overtones and connotations associated with it that comes with some skepticism that we need to work our way through to make sure that it is done in a ethical and appropriate way to protect veterans both on the privacy of their health records, but also on the certainty of their claim that it's done in the appropriate way. So, I appreciate each of you for being here today to help us work through that.
▶ 2:02:59Um section 701B of the PACT Act set the stage for incorporating new technology, and we need to make sure that we are holding to that. We're coming to an end of this modernization plan that was set in place by the passage of the PACT Act. It only goes through next fiscal year.
▶ 2:03:15It's up to us to ensure that the future of VBA IT evolves at the speed of technology while protecting the interests of Um so, that's our job on this committee is to make sure that the ever-evolving landscape and to sure ensure that VA is executing accordingly. Uh look forward to working with each of our stakeholders and each of our committee members to make sure that we get that right. So, thank you so much for being here today. And with that, we're adjourned.