▶ 0:06:14Thank you for joining today's hearing, entitled for the purpose of receiving testimony from chief tom schultz, U.S. forest service. After brief opening remarks, members will receive testimony from our witness today, and then the hearing will be open to questions. And in.
▶ 0:06:32In consultation with the ranking member and pursuant to rule one or excuse me, 11ei want to make members of the subcommittee aware that other members of the full committee may join us this morning. So, uh, good morning. I want to say good morning to all the members of the subcommittee on forestry and horticulture.
▶ 0:06:59And especially good morning to our fire chief, tom schultz. Mr. schultz, or a forestry chief. Excuse me. Today we will hear the expert testimony of the chief of the forest service, the head of a government agency tasked with the immense responsibility of carefully stewarding nearly 200 million acres of public lands located within the national forest system.
▶ 0:07:24Long ago, the organic administration act of 1897 established that no national forest shall be established except to improve and protect the forest within the boundaries, or for the purpose of securing favorable favorable conditions of water flows, and to furnish a continuous supply of timber for the use and necessities of citizens of the united states.
▶ 0:07:53It is important that we comprehend just how prophetic these words were some 130 years ago, the forest service was not established simply to fulfill a single purpose, whether that purpose be environmental or economic. It was founded with both things in mind, and since the agency has always been multifaceted. Or in other words, our national forests have always been intended for multiple use purposes.
▶ 0:08:23Benefits to watersheds and forests stands in one part of the country can easily impact the quality and availability of critical commodities far from the forest, which makes me even more grateful for the foresight that our nation had when the agency was founded so many years ago.
▶ 0:08:45However, while it is important to note that although the forest service has served its purpose well for over 100 years, the system continues to face significant challenges for a variety of reasons.
▶ 0:08:58These include overgrowth, invasive species outbreaks, underutilization of active forest management tools, frivolous litigation, growing maintenance backlogs, and decisions to take vast swaths of public lands out of both management and active production, all of which have contributed to the generational decline in the overall health of the national forest system.
▶ 0:09:27As a result, many regions, particularly in the west, where national forests are more prevalent, continue to face the true wildfire and forest health crises, necessitating urgent actions in response. And while we've seen some of the most destructive fire years on record over the past decade or so, these. This trend is continuing as 2026 is on track to be one of the most severe in recent years.
▶ 0:09:56So far this year, we've seen more than 3.9 million acres burned and more than 40,000 fires nationwide. Currently, firefighters are working to contain some 72 large fires in the states, including my home state of washington. We are seeing a new fire start nearly every day to the dry weather, to lightning and poorly managed forests as we speak.
▶ 0:10:25Firefighters are still working to contain a fire that started in the northern part of my district and at the end of last week, which has grown to nearly 80,000 acres. Given the increased number of fires and acres burned each year, it's clear that more needs to be done to improve forest health, reduce the threat of catastrophic wildfire on high risk acres, and protect our most vulnerable communities.
▶ 0:10:54On top of that, we've seen a dramatic decline in timber harvest in the national forest system, which negatively impacts both forest and rural economic health, as well as important support for local counties and public schools.
▶ 0:11:07It is for these many reasons that I am thankful for the initiative shown by the administration and the forest service over the last year and a half to increase the scope and scale of hazardous fuels reductions across the national forest system, and efforts to expand timber harvest levels to help meet our conservation goals while supporting rural economies.
▶ 0:11:33While there are questions on the pending agency reorganization, I am hopeful that such structural changes will, in the long run, result in more locally led decision making and more efficient, efficient on the ground management and more management at the landscape level.
▶ 0:11:51Chief schultz, you've been an indispensable component of this administration's efforts to reprioritize the founding mission of the united states forest service, and for that, I thank you. It's also critical that we thank those around you, especially those who are currently fighting fires across the country and at great self risk to protect the lives and property of their fellow americans.
▶ 0:12:21With that in mind, I would like to take just a moment to recognize emily barker, nick hutcherson and sydney watson, three firefighters who tragically lost their lives in the knolls fire in colorado just a few weeks ago on june 29th. We also recognize those who were injured in that fire.
▶ 0:12:45And nicholas dale, a pilot who lost his life on july 12th, and the gold mountain fire in colorado. We're forever grateful for their service and for those who made the ultimate sacrifice protecting our communities. So at this time, please join me for a moment of silence in acknowledgment of these brave firefighters.
▶ 0:13:34Thank you. Our thoughts and prayers are also with the families and friends of these individuals at this difficult time. I also want to take a moment to acknowledge the fires currently raging in my own district, which have destroyed hundreds of homes in the landscape of washington state, which is so precious to me. To many.
▶ 0:13:56Chief, we look forward to hearing your thoughtful insight on the important work your agency is completing and the ways that congress can more effectively support that work, as well as any updates that you may have on the ongoing fire season. So we much appreciate your time, and thank you for being with us today.
▶ 0:14:17With that, I'd now like to welcome the distinguished ranking member, the lady from oregon, miss salinas, for any opening remarks that she would like to make. Speaker 2: thank you, chairman newhouse, for convening us today. And thank you to chief schultz for joining our subcommittee. I'm eager to hear how, um and better understand the work and the capacity of the forest service and what it really needs to successfully deliver for the american people.
▶ 0:14:47But before we begin, I want to acknowledge the two forest service employees who were recently taken hostage while serving the public in california's shasta-trinity national forest. We are grateful for their safe return, and our thoughts remain with them, their families, and all public servants who face risks in the line of duty. Scientists predicted that 2026 would be a very difficult fire year, and as we all know, they were right.
▶ 0:15:12More than 3.9 million acres have already burned nationwide, and that is 900,000 more acres than the ten year average. With these blazes, we saw the tragic loss of three firefighters on the cottonwood fire along the colorado utah border and a canadian helicopter pilot on the gold mountain fire. Our hearts go out to to their families and their crew members, including the two additional firefighters who were injured.
▶ 0:15:37These statistics, though, all highlight how severe the wildfire danger has become and the need to ensure our public land management agencies are working at full capacity. Unfortunately, the trump administration has been focused on topics other than wildfire preparedness from its disruptive and likely illegal reorganization plan and the consolidation of wildfire response under the department of interior to a myopic focus on commercial timber harvest at the expense of hazardous fuels
▶ 0:16:08Treatments, all of which are making our communities less safe. I frequently hear from oregonians and stakeholders that this administration is causing chaos on our public lands. Current employees of the forest service are demoralized and confused about what their future holds. The agency has lost 16% of its staff since 2024, and I've heard that some employees do not know who to report to any longer.
▶ 0:16:31The agency also sent 6500 of the remaining employees a vague letter in march that their jobs would be affected by the reorganization. But four months later, there are still no details, only anxiety and uncertainty for these workers and their families. It's difficult to see the chaos as anything other than intentional at this point. Despite overwhelming negative feedback from the public, employees and former senior forest service officials, the administration has carried on with its plan.
▶ 0:17:02And we know now, despite past statements by the administration, that they did have a goal to push out our forest service employees. They prepared their plan behind closed doors with a goal to push out 15% of the forest service staff. And to no one's surprise, they hit that target. The public in congress are now saddled with the consequences. It continues to feel like the administration is hiding critical information about the reorganization at every turn.
▶ 0:17:32500 employees originally received notices that they may have to relocate. Specifically, employees in washington, D.C. milwaukee, atlanta and portland. However, agency whistleblowers highlighted in a letter to the committee that this number is not consistent with the number of employees working in buildings identified for closure under the reorganization plan. Mr. chairman, I ask unanimous consent to enter that letter into the record. Speaker 1: without objection. Speaker 2: thank you.
▶ 0:18:02This sweeping reorganization creates more questions than answers, and the fact that it's being implemented right as wildfire season is upon us alarms me. Doing so threatens the forest service. Overall, the loss of staff and the institutional knowledge they have should not be casualties in the trump administration's reorganization of the forest service. Each is too valuable to be lost. This brings me to another action by this administration that's causing some serious concern.
▶ 0:18:30The attempt to consolidate wildfire management into wildland fire service under the department of interior. This consolidation of wildfire response would strip staff from the forest service to work for the new agency. But these employees not only fight wildfires at the forest service, they also engage in important forest management that mitigates future wildfire risk.
▶ 0:18:54This proposal would fracture the critical communication links between land management and fire management, and it is yet another threat to the forest service's efficacy. Given how much disruption the forest service has endured, it's no surprise that many of its key performance metrics have suffered. From 2024 to 2025, the forest service treated roughly 25% fewer acres for hazardous fuels, and it's on track to hit that same week target again this year.
▶ 0:19:21It also published less research, issued fewer recreation permits, and completed fewer miles of trail maintenance. This is not efficiency. At some point, the fewer people on the ground to do the work means less work gets done. Chief schultz, you have a lot of experience in forestry, and my guess is that you have probably stopped worse things from happening under this administration.
▶ 0:19:46At the end of the day, though, we simply can't be satisfied with avoiding the worst outcomes. We must do better. I look forward to our conversation. Thank you, Mr. chairman, and I yield back. Speaker 1: thank you, miss salinas. Now, I'd like to recognize the chairman of the full committee, chairman g.t. Thompson of pennsylvania, for any opening comments that he would like to make, Mr. chairman. Well.
▶ 0:20:15Speaker 3: thank you very much, chairman newhouse, ranking member. Salinas. Uh, chief. Glad, glad to see you. Great to have you here. Um, thank you all for holding this morning's hearing. I'd also like to begin by recognizing the courageous firefighters who recently lost their lives serving in colorado. This tragedy is another reminder of the very real dangers our firefighters face each and every day when protecting communities and the. In the great appreciation that we have for their service.
▶ 0:20:45Um, I'd like to echo that these firefighters, their families and friends are all in our thoughts and prayers. And we're forever grateful for their services, their service, and their sacrifices. Uh, welcome again, chief schultz. Thank you for being here and your continued dedication to the forest service.
▶ 0:21:04The number of wildfires starts and the overall acres burn demonstrate the severity of of this fire year and the urgent work that remains before the agency and other forest managers confronting wildfires, a crisis and addressing it is about restoring forest health, decreasing risk, and helping keep our communities and our firefighters safe.
▶ 0:21:26In addition to wildfire, we also have significant forest health needs across the national forest system, including in eastern forest. That must be addressed when it comes to wildfire, forest health and the rural economy.
▶ 0:21:41All of these topics are connected and can be addressed simultaneously, increasing management activities, expanding partnerships and encouraging a strong forest products industry will provide innumerable benefits to both the forest and the local economy alike.
▶ 0:21:58Uh, chief, I appreciate the work that you, the forest service and this administration have been doing over the past year and a half to improve how the agency functions and encourage, uh, urgently needed management over multiple farm bills.
▶ 0:22:14The committee has continually supported the forest service in these endeavors, and we are again, trying to build on these prior successes by getting new farm bill, the new farm bill across the finish line this year, and where there's no shortage of relevant topics before us today, I'm particularly interested in hearing more about the ongoing reorganization plans to increase restoration and fuels reduction activities, and efforts to increase timber outputs where we know that we can do more.
▶ 0:22:43I'd also welcome comment on the agency's plans for continuing important forest research activities, including for invasive species management. All of these issues are critically important to the health and sustainability of national forests across the country, including in pennsylvania's allegheny national forest, which I have the privilege and the honor to represent. Uh, chief, we look forward to your testimony and a fulsome discussion this morning.
▶ 0:23:10Uh, with that, thank you for being here and all of your efforts since the beginning of last year. Mr. chairman, I yield back. Speaker 1: thank you, Mr. thompson. Now, I'd like to recognize the ranking member of the full committee, miss angie craig, from the great state of minnesota. For any comments. Opening comments you'd like to make, Mr. craig. Speaker 4: thank you so much. Mr. chairman. I would like to add my condolences to those recent lives lost as well.
▶ 0:23:34Uh, our hearts and our prayers go out to the entire service as well as their friends and family. I want to begin by thanking our courageous wildland firefighters, especially those battling the fires in minnesota and the boundary waters canoe area wilderness.
▶ 0:23:54I also want to recognize the search and rescue personnel from minnesota, the forest service and canada who recently evacuated the young ymca campers from the boundary waters and help get them home to their families. I'm ashamed to say that the president responded to these acts of bravery by our neighbors to the north by blaming them for the wildfires and lashing out and increasing tariffs on them.
▶ 0:24:26Today, I'll say what he should have said to our canadian neighbors. Thank you, chief schultz. Thank you for being here today. Before I go any further, I want to start by inviting you to join me in minnesota to see firsthand the damage caused by these wildfires, and meet with the communities and small businesses affected by the decisions being made here in washington. Mr. schultz, you are the first political appointee to serve as chief in the agency's history.
▶ 0:24:55This unprecedented decision coincides with some of the most radical shifts in forest service history. This includes dosage cuts that forced out about 16% of the staff, and a politically motivated reorganization. And the issues go deeper than staffing.
▶ 0:25:17The forest service diverted forest management funds that congress provided through the bipartisan infrastructure law and the inflation reduction act to pay for the deferred resignation program. That has been par for the course under this administration, using limited taxpayer dollars not to pay for critical, valuable work, but to handicap federal agencies for years to come. And it has had obvious consequences.
▶ 0:25:46The forest service treated 23% fewer hazardous fuel acres, fuels acres last year compared with 2020 for rural communities in minnesota and across the country are understandably worried about what happens when the agency continues losing experienced employees and accomplishing less work. Earlier this year, you said that the agency does not intend to push anyone out the door, quote unquote.
▶ 0:26:16But internal documents show just the opposite. These reductions weren't accidental. They were the objective. Now, despite the challenges you face, usda is seeking to completely reorganize the agency. History shows that requiring employees to uproot their families and relocate across the country leads to substantial attrition. At a time when the forest service is already struggling to retain experienced personnel.
▶ 0:26:47That is a risk this agency cannot afford. Despite all the proof to the contrary, we've also been told that the reorganization will not harm the research arm of the forest service research. Mind you, that is intended to prevent and more quickly stop forest fires. But the department's budget proposal for the next fiscal year eliminates funding for forest service research altogether.
▶ 0:27:15What type of message does that send to rural communities and wildland firefighters on the front lines? It's not enough that your department is putting our public lands at risk, but you've also opened the door to proposals like state and local primacy, which would be a step toward selling off them off altogether, an idea so unpopular that it was removed from the republicans reconciliation bill last year.
▶ 0:27:44Chief, when so many of your decisions undermine the forest service's mission, people are right to ask whether that's the intended outcome. Let me close with this. There is bipartisan support for a strong and effective forest service. We all want healthier forests, more hazardous fuels treated, more trails restored, more sustainable timber harvested and safer communities.
▶ 0:28:07For the rural communities many of us represent, the forest service isn't a political weapon to be wielded when the administration changes. It's an essential partner that supports local economies like those near the boundary waters in minnesota. It protects public lands and help, keeps family, helps to keep families safe from catastrophic wildfire. That's why this agency needs to succeed. That's why we need this agency to do better.
▶ 0:28:37Thank you, Mr. chairman, and I yield back. Speaker 1: thank you, miss craig. The chair would request that other members submit their opening statements for the record, so the witness may begin his testimony. And to ensure that there is ample time for questions. So, as you've heard, our witness today is Mr. tom schultz, a chief of the united states forest service. Thank you for joining us again today. Mr. Mr.
▶ 0:29:04Schultz and I do apologize for my freudian slip of trying to introduce you as our fire chief, just a reflection of what's happening back home. But we will now proceed to your testimony. You will have five minutes. A timer in front of you will count down to zero, at which point your time will have expired. So, chief schultz, you may begin whenever you are ready. Speaker 5: chairman newhouse, ranking member salinas and members of the subcommittee.
▶ 0:29:34Thank you for inviting me here today to testify. I want to begin by recognizing that our wildland fire community has experienced profound loss that occurred in western colorado. An interagency helitack crew of fire firefighters, employees, the forest service, the us wildland fire service were involved in a burnover incident while working on the knolls and gore fires. As was previously mentioned, three of them tragically died. Miss barker, Mr.
▶ 0:29:58Hutcherson and miss watson, these three dedicated public servants made the ultimate sacrifice, selflessly protecting the people and communities that we serve every day. And last week, as was mentioned, we lost a contract helicopter pilot named nicholas dale from canada who was supporting wildfire operations in colorado. These tragedies are heartbreaking reminders that behind every engine, aircraft and incident management team, there are people who willingly face extraordinary risks and service to others.
▶ 0:30:26Today, our hearts are heavy and our thoughts are with their families and all who knew and loved them. And we won't forget their sacrifice. Despite the challenges of this fire year and the tragic losses, our community has endured, wildfire preparedness and response remain at the heart of the forest service mission and above all, the safety of agency employees and the public remains our top priority. We are experiencing higher than average national fire activity after a dry winter.
▶ 0:30:50Extensive drought and excessive heat are worsening hazardous fuel conditions across large parts of the west and other areas as well. The agency stands ready to meet those challenges head on and continues to focus on our priority work. We are prioritizing initial response so we can keep fires small, and we're invested in staffing, coordination, contracting and infrastructure to meet the reality that fire season is now many times 12 months out of the year.
▶ 0:31:15Our baseline goal is to have 11,300 operational firefighters in place by mid-july to prepare for the peak of the fire season this year. We reached that goal in record time earlier than any year since 2022, partly thanks to h.r. Reforms that shaved months off our onboarding process. And more than that, we exceeded our goal by more than 500 firefighters, for a total of more than 11,800 firefighters this year. As a result, we're entering the heart of the season with more operational firefighters than we've had before.
▶ 0:31:43In addition to operational firefighters, we have approximately 10,000 non-fire red carded personnel. Some have asked whether recent workforce changes have reduced our firefighting capacity. The answer is no. Our operational firefighting workforce was exempt from the hiring freeze and deferred resignation programs.
▶ 0:32:00When you combine our operational firefighters and our red carded staff and our administratively determined emergency hires, the forest service can mobilize more than 28,000 responders in support of the wildfire incidents, and we continue to strengthen the interagency partnerships that make our nation's wildland fire response system the strongest in the world. We're also working with department of interior and congress, as directed, on the administration's broader effort to consolidate the wildland fire management systems. These efforts are moving forward without compromising operational readiness.
▶ 0:32:29This fiscal year, we have treated nearly 2.5 million acres of hazardous fuels to date and anticipate meeting our target of 3.6 million acres. We have more than 1.7 million acres treated by prescribed fire and nearly 550,000 acres more than last year. At this time, these achievements reflect not only strategic investments and partnerships, but dedication and bravery of our firefighters. Wildfires do not respect man made borders. They don't care about jurisdictional boundaries or property lines.
▶ 0:32:56That is why our partnerships are critical to the work that we do on the landscapes. The forest service is working alongside state, tribal and local governments to manage the nation's forests more effectively. In the past two years, we have entered shared stewardship agreements with seven states, four tribal nations, and by the end of 2026, we have 571 active good neighbor agreements across 39 states.
▶ 0:33:18Through collaborative work, we can responsibly manage natural resources and forest health and provide economic opportunities for prosperity to protect communities and infrastructure. Quarter. The shared success is prioritizing active management. 2025. We exceeded our timber target, selling 2.95 billion board feet of timber. This supports domestic troy nehls, strengthens rural economies and improves forest health. We're implementing our national active forest management strategy in 26.
▶ 0:33:43We have sold almost 2.2 billion board feet to date and are on our way to meeting our target of 3.2 billion board feet by the end of this fiscal year. We're also modernizing our grazing processes and expanding access to ensure grazing continues to promote healthy landscapes and resilient rural communities.
▶ 0:34:00Last week, we completed the highest level of reforestation in more than 25 years, reforesting almost 287,000 acres, the highest level since 1998, while improving stands on another 165,000 acres, national forests received more than 160 million visitors annually. That is remarkable public benefit and brings economic benefits to gateway communities. We're working to expand recreational access and improve visitor experience for the millions of americans who enjoy their national forests.
▶ 0:34:26Lastly, I want I know that usda reorganization remains on top of mind for many members. We are moving leadership and decision making closer to communities and landscapes that we serve. To this end, we will be moving our headquarters to salt lake city this fall, transitioning from a regional structure to a state based organizational model, establishing operational service centers and consolidating research leadership so science is better connected to operational needs. As part of our reorganization, we're also taking a hard look at our facility footprint.
▶ 0:34:53The forest service can no longer afford our leasing costs. That is roughly about a $3 billion deferred maintenance backlog for buildings. These decisions are about improving mission delivery, investing in safe and functional workspaces, and being responsible stewards of taxpayer dollars. In closing, chairman thompson, ranking member craig and members of the committee, thank you for joining me here today. I welcome your questions. Speaker 1: thank you, chief schultz, for your testimony.
▶ 0:35:17At this time, members will be recognized for questions in order of seniority, alternating between majority and minority members and in order of arrival. For those who joined us after the hearing convened, you'll be recognized for five minutes each in order to allow us to get to as many questions as possible. With that, I recognize myself for five minutes.
▶ 0:35:41Chief schultz forest service has described the pending reorganization as an effort to replace the agency's regional structure with a state office model, which you just summarized. My understanding is that instead of nine regional offices, we will now have 15 state offices, with some serving multiple states.
▶ 0:36:04So my question is, could you explain the agency's position on how this restructuring will increase administrative efficiency and improve forest management? And also, could you address that? Some have suggested that this reorganization, specifically shifting away from the regional structure is a new idea, as the forest service considered in the past, any of the structural changes that the reorganization is proposing?
▶ 0:36:36Speaker 5: Mr. chairman, thank you for the question. Um, the short answer is yes. We have considered reorganization multiple times in the past, most recently in 2007. There's actually a study that's on the forest service website that kind of outlines some of the review that was done in 2007 about reorganization. Uh, many of the things that we're looking at today are not new. The forest service actually started the reorganization effort, thinking about things even in 2024.
▶ 0:37:01There's been a lot of discussion here today about, um, what we're doing or what we're trying to do with this effort. I want to just remind everybody that when we came into this office, we had about a $750 million shortfall in funding. There was additional funding provided from iija and ira back in 2021 and 22. The intent all along was never to retain all of those employees.
▶ 0:37:27It was one time funding, so the forest service staffed up all of these employees to the tune of about 6 to 7000 employees between 21 and 24. The intent was to have those folks up at that level and then over eight more years to let them go. So if you look at our staffing levels today, where we sit at about 30,000 employees, we're similar to what we were back in 2019. We actually have a little more employees today than in 2019.
▶ 0:37:53So the intent with the staffing, we keep talking about all of these employees that were let go or what the intent was, the intent was to make sure we managed within the budgets that we have. But to your point, sir, um, reorganization preceded us coming into office. It was started by the forest service back in 2024, but there have been prior studies looking at this as well on the website that are available to the public as as, again, a full blown study in 2007. Um, in terms of the state model, we've, we looked at a lot of different options.
▶ 0:38:23So within usda, we have state conservationists. Um, we have within department of interior, the blm has state directors. We looked at that model, we looked at a lot of the agencies we collaborate with, and we felt that that was going to be a model that was more attentive to the needs of cooperators around the country. So you're right, we went from nine regions. We're proposing 15 state director offices. I'll just give an example. On the west coast, for instance, we have some members. We have a single regional forester right now that is over california, oregon, washington and alaska.
▶ 0:38:55Under this model, we we have a state director in alaska, in washington, in oregon, and in california. We think that model provides greater opportunity for communication and coordination, not only with the state, but also with counties, with tribes, with cooperators. At that state based level. We have multiple regions right now where they cross multiple states. So we have, for instance, in montana, um, within, um, wyoming, within idaho, we have multiple regions. So for instance, in wyoming, we have two regions there.
▶ 0:39:25And sometimes you have different direction that comes from different regions. And the states have been frustrated by the current model that we have. So we think it's a better way to deliver services. We think it provides greater communication with the states and other cooperators at that level. So that's what's driving that. Um, and that office is going to be much smaller. So we're looking at probably somewhere between 8 to 10 employees at most at a state director office, compared to having several hundred employees at a regional office. Speaker 1: well, thank you for that. Speaker 5: yes, sir.
▶ 0:39:56Speaker 1: I will ask further questions, perhaps in a second round. But now I'll turn to my ranking member, miss salinas, for her five minutes of questioning. Speaker 2: uh, thank you, chairman newhouse. And thank you, chief schultz, for your testimony. This year's wildfire season is already demonstrating the dangerous and increasingly year round nature of wildfire risk threatening communities, public health and natural resources across our country. The department of ag and forest service play a crucial role in preventing and combating wildfires.
▶ 0:40:25So, in carrying out a sweeping reorganization of usda and the forest service, it's important to look at the data and seek public input for guidance. As part of that review process, usda, um sought public comment about this reorganization with the purpose of hearing from the public and your own employees about your plans. Do you know how many responses the agency received? Speaker 5: I do not know. No, ma'am. Speaker 2: okay.
▶ 0:40:51Well, usda received over 14,000 public comments about the reorganization, 27% of general comments were specifically about the forest service. Do you know what percentage of comments provided, positive feedback and what percentage provided negative feedback? Speaker 5: no, ma'am, I don't know. Speaker 2: all right. Well, um, 82% express negative sentiment. Um, the reorganization proposal received less than 20% positive feedback.
▶ 0:41:20Tribal representatives, conservation groups, and even former forest service staff oppose the move. And they and the key themes in the feedback related to safeguarding the forest service mission, loss of local oversight and expertise, reductions in personnel and resources, and transparency in the reorganization process. Um, stakeholders overwhelmingly rejected this plan. And it was, um, folks with some expertise.
▶ 0:41:46Another important factor for reorganization is how it will affect staffing levels. Chief schultz, you testified at the senate agriculture committee that you did not think that staff, subject to relocation would likely leave. You said, and I'm quoting from your testimony, we do not anticipate, overall that it is going to be a significant number of people.
▶ 0:42:08But your testimony directly contradicted, um, by what the department said in its internal, previously confidential reorganization plan that recently became public. The reorganization plan said, and I quote, a significant number of employees will decline geographic reassignments. Um. These are previously undisclosed documents directly from usda officials.
▶ 0:42:36Um, recent history and surveys back up what the usda's own report said about this reorganization in 2019, the relocation of the economic research service and national institutes of food and agriculture from washington, D.C. to kansas city, missouri, resulted in about 85% of employees either quitting or retiring. Instead of relocating the relocation of blm headquarters in 2019 caused 87% of the affected employees to leave.
▶ 0:43:04And just this year, 76% of usda employees surveyed by the american federation of government employees said they would not relocate if asked. Given all this evidence, it seems clear that requiring staff to relocate results in staff leaving and the loss of critical expertise and institutional knowledge. So, chief, you are on the record, and I want to give you an opportunity to to revise your prior testimony.
▶ 0:43:31Do you now admit that based on recent history survey data and internal documentation, the reorganization plan will likely result in a significant number of employees declining geographic reassignment? Speaker 5: um, miss salinas, I do not change my statement. Previously, what I would tell you is that right now we're looking at less than 500 employees that we would anticipate having to relocate across the agency. Most of those would be in the washington office, for instance, in oregon right now.
▶ 0:43:59Um, we've talked about relocating folks from the the office downtown, and we have basically told them within their current commuting area, the oregon staff, um, in portland would have an opportunity to locate without having to relocate their homes, but they could drive to their locations in the future other forests. So no, we expect less than 500 people across 30,000 employees to actually have to physically relocate.
▶ 0:44:25Of that 500, I don't have a good sense whether that's going to be 50% or 80%, as you alluded to, some prior statistics. But overall, we we have worked with employees extensively. We're currently surveying our employees about where the ones that would have to relocate, where they would like to go in terms of the job. They're having input into that process. It's been an extremely thoughtful process. It's not necessarily evident externally.
▶ 0:44:52We have town hall meetings every two weeks to work with our employees to communicate with them. We are sitting down with those employees to identify options for them in the in jobs. So I, I do not change my prior statement. I think overall, we are not going to have significant losses of employees through this process. In most cases, people are going to be able to continue to work from locations where they're at. We talked about those three offices in atlanta. We talked about minneapolis, and we talked about portland.
▶ 0:45:17And in portland, like I just said, we think we're going to have opportunities for most, if not all of those employees to be able to, to stay where they live and commute within that commuting area. So I don't change my statement. Speaker 2: well, I look forward to that reorganization working out for the workers. And, uh, my time has expired, so I yield back. Speaker 1: thank you, miss salinas. Now I turn to our committee's chairman, Mr. thompson, for his five minutes.
▶ 0:45:45Speaker 3: well, thank you, chairman. Ranking member. Uh, chief schultz again. Great to see you. Um, great to be with you. Thank you for being here, quite frankly. Thank you for the reorganization effort. I have been working closely with U.S. forest service for 18 years. In my time serving here in congress, I have a stake in the game with the allegheny national forest. But my work, uh, as a member of congress, has really been looking across the country, uh, visiting damaged areas devastated by wildfire.
▶ 0:46:15Um, and I think this reorganization, uh, I appreciate the fact you noted this started under the biden administration in 2024 with the forest service, but you really have implemented and, and I think you've been very sensitive to employees needs. But and that is important. But what is most important is the effectiveness of the U.S. forest service.
▶ 0:46:34Um, and, um, and I think this reorganization is good news for forest health, for the, for the economy, particularly the rural economy and, and for rural communities. Uh, congratulations on, on what you've shared the, you know, that, uh, in terms of firefighting staffing, you've exceeded that goal, uh, already, uh, the treatment of, uh, now 2.5 million, looking at 3.6 million acres, uh, partnerships
▶ 0:47:06That you are emphasizing, uh, with states and tribes and, um, and private private lands, uh, expecting 3.2 million board feet, uh, of harvest by the end of the year. That's all great news for this country. And quite frankly, things I've advocated for for 18 years. It does take change and change isn't easy. Um, a lot of us don't deal well with change, even when it's the most righteous and the most needed.
▶ 0:47:37Um, I much appreciate the president's executive order on timber and wood products, as well as the calls for increasing harvest levels across the national forest system. Can you update us on what actions the forest service is taking to increasing harvesting in the national forest system? Speaker 5: uh, Mr. chairman. Uh, Mr. thompson? Yes, sir. So what I will tell you is that we've done multiple things. We've adopted an active management strategy, which we've trained our employees on, which we provide clear guidance and direction.
▶ 0:48:04So congress passed in the reconciliation bill direction that encourages us every year to increase over the next ten years the volume that we're selling by 250,000,000ft a year, and we're on target to do that. I know sometimes that seems alarming to people. To put this in context, what this means, we have every national forest has a forest plan. If we just implement every forest plan across the country, which is what most people advocate for, implement your forest plan.
▶ 0:48:30If we just implement forest plans, that would be somewhere between six and a half and 7 billion board feet a year. So what that tells you is today we're doing about half of the work in the forest plans across the country. So if we follow the direction from congress, by the end of ten years, we will be at full implementation of forest plans, which includes not just timber targets, but forest management is a tool to get all of this work done. So we're on target to do that. So we're doing that. We're not just focusing strictly on just timber. We're doing fuels work, we're doing recreation work.
▶ 0:49:00We're doing all of these things at forest plans direct other things that we're doing. We're using tools that we haven't looked at for years. So you go back to 1944. There was a sustained yield unit law passed. We haven't done anything with that in years. We adopted a sustained yield unit in montana that goes across six national forests, which is going to keep those wood products produced locally. We're doing 20 year agreements.
▶ 0:49:21We've done those, um, basically in nevada, we've looked at those in oregon, what we're doing 20 agreements, not just with, um, ngos and part of mills that are doing work. We're also doing them with state agencies to increase the outputs that we can look at and treat more ground. You know what's so interesting to me? We talk a lot about the work that needs to be done. It's we're doing a fraction of what needs to be done. And I'll bring up real quick, we talk a lot about wildfire. You look at the cottonwood fire and we forecasted this was going to happen.
▶ 0:49:51So we burn 100,000 acres on southern utah. Not only did it burn homes and burn the landscape catastrophically, now we have major floods impacting those communities. We had a family that was just basically totally killed by that, that flood event. There are so many things happening on the landscape that happen post-fire. So the more we can do to get that work done in advance, it's critical for communities, um, to protect those communities.
▶ 0:50:14So we're doing a lot of work, sir, and we're on target this year to meet those, those targets, the fuels work that we're talking about doing, the timber work that we're talking about doing the recreation work, all of that. The grazing work, all ties into managing for healthy forests. Speaker 3: well, thank you for those efforts.
▶ 0:50:29And I know that those will will continue as you work years for future years here of increasing that harvest and also preemptively trying to prevent those wildfires and, and the impact on soils where destabilizes the soil and, and then the rain comes. And, um, and a lot of that winds up in great streams. Uh, um, so thank you so much, chief. Uh, Mr. chairman, I yield back. Speaker 1: thank you, Mr. chairman.
▶ 0:50:55Now we'll turn to ranking member of the full committee, miss craig, for her questions. Speaker 4: thank you, Mr. chairman. Uh, Mr. schultz, I'd like to begin with something near and dear to the hearts of all minnesotans. Uh, last week, the forest service announced it was closing the entire 1.1 million acre boundary waters canoe area wilderness due to wildfires, burning and dry conditions on the ground.
▶ 0:51:19Does the fact that minnesota lost over 100 forest service staff since the start of this administration have anything to do with the wilderness areas closure? Speaker 5: uh, Mr. chairman, miss craig? No, it does not. Speaker 4: no, I mean, that's strange, because the last time this happened in 2021, the closure followed an extremely dry summer d for drought levels and a month of the highest wildfire activity designation.
▶ 0:51:50Preparedness level five. Firefighters were tired and resources were stretched as thin as they get when the boundary waters closed. This time, we were at preparedness level four, and as far as I can tell, the difference is that the forest service has lost more than 6000 staff since 2024, including more than 100 employees in minnesota.
▶ 0:52:12And the incident commander for the wildfires was recently quoted as saying, quote, we only have so many resources to go around, end quote. That would certainly suggest that the lack of staffing was at least related to the closure. Turning now to the forest service reorganization, I'd like to read from the spending bill for this year that funds the forest service.
▶ 0:52:37This was a law passed by a republican majorities in both chambers and signed by president trump, quote, none of the funds made available in this act, in this and prior fiscal years may be reprogramed without the advance notification and approval of the house and senate committees on appropriations in accordance with the reprograming procedures contained in the explanatory statement.
▶ 0:53:04Put simply, you need congressional approval to implement this reorganization. Chief, do you agree that you need congressional approval to implement this reorganization? Speaker 5: uh, Mr. chairman, miss craig, no, we do not believe that we've gotten direction from ogc at usda that we can move forward without congressional approval. We do believe we have to notify congress, which we have done that through this process.
▶ 0:53:29Speaker 4: well, I appreciate that you have on the advice of your lawyers, and I understand there's ongoing litigation on the topic, but the letter of the law seems clear enough to me, and I'm going to be watching the outcome of that litigation very closely, because I don't take the flaunting of congressional intent, um, lightly. Um, let me read from the explanatory statement of the funding law governing the U.S. forest service for you.
▶ 0:53:55A reprograming shall also consist of any significant departure from the program described in the agency's budget justifications. This includes all proposed reorganizations or other workforce actions detailed below, which affect a total of ten staff members, or 10% of the staffing of an affected program or office, whichever is less.
▶ 0:54:24Even without a change in funding. So again, you've sent reorganization notices to employees, including around 500 people who've been told to pack up and move to a different city out west. Before you started this reorganization, did you receive the approval of the appropriations committees to do so as required by law? Speaker 5: Mr. chairman, miss craig, we did not receive approval because we did not think it was required by law. Speaker 4: well, I look forward to the courts opining on that.
▶ 0:54:56I look forward, to the results of your reorganization. Um, and I have serious concerns that this administration knows what the hell it's doing in running this agency, the brain drain and the lack of focus on research in our country, um, is extraordinarily dangerous. And it is literally costing lives. So, Mr. schultz, I appreciate you being here today.
▶ 0:55:26Um, but I also believe that this administration, usda, and your agency are screwing this up in a very big way. And the consequences for our communities are disastrous. Thank you, Mr. chairman. I yield back. Speaker 1: thank you, Mr. craig. Now I'll turn to gentleman from california, Mr. valadao, for his three minutes of. Oh, excuse me, five minutes of questions.
▶ 0:55:55Speaker 6: I appreciate the extra two minutes, Mr. chairman. Uh, chief schultz, thank you for being here today in front of the subcommittee. I appreciate your time. Is the forest service prioritizing aggressive initial attacks? When a fire, even small, could threaten nearby communities, watersheds or downwind agriculture areas. Further, how does the agency decide when to fully suppress a fire and when to passively contain it? Speaker 5: uh, Mr. chair and Mr. valadao. So the first question is, do we initiate aggressive initial attack?
▶ 0:56:24Yes we do. Um, we know that keeping fires small protects firefighters, protects communities, and also saves funding in terms of we just, you know, every fire has a full suppression strategy. Every fire that we look at some of those use direct attack methods and some use indirect attack methods. It's based on weather conditions. It's based on topography. Um, we look at the safety of the firefighters. We look at the communities impacted. So all of those go into those tactical decisions that are being made.
▶ 0:56:52But I will assure you that every fire has a full suppression strategy. Speaker 6: when it comes to wildfire management. What new technologies are you most excited about and how are they helping the forest service detect fire sooner, manage forests more effectively and protect firefighters? And how will you ensure these tools are widely available in california and other high risk areas? Speaker 5: uh, Mr. chair, Mr.
▶ 0:57:14Valadao, um, what's really exciting is a lot of the new technologies you mentioned, but the camera technologies that exist, a lot of that technology actually came out of california, university of california, santa barbara designed some of this, which has also been been commercialized. But we have many cameras now across california that are not just on forest service sites, but on private sites, state owned sites, that that information goes in the public domain.
▶ 0:57:36So when a when a smoke is detected, that information goes immediately to dispatch, which enables us, the forest service or other firefighting agencies to dispatch crews to those sites. So that is a very unique technology. There's also satellite technologies available to identify where smoke is coming from.
▶ 0:57:54Um, so whether it's satellites, whether it's lidar information that's being used, whether it's cameras, there's a lot of information that's enable us to detect fires sooner and then dispatch crews quicker to protect communities and put fires out. Speaker 6: thank you.
▶ 0:58:08Given the effects of wildfire smoke on downwind, uh, downwind farming communities and outdoor workers, how can the forest service best coordinate with growers, counties, local air districts when setting forest management and wildfire response priorities? Speaker 5: Mr. chairman, Mr. valadao, I think the biggest thing is you talked about is the coordination that's required. We in many cases, we have smoke coordination centers in different states that work not only with state agencies, but also with counties and local officials.
▶ 0:58:37So I think the biggest thing is whether it's prescribed fire, letting folks know what we're planning to do and when that is, they might be, you know, aware of that. The other issue is we develop we have a system called pods, which looks at areas that we can basically operational delineation lines that we can put on the maps, that we can see where we need to protect communities. And we can we share that information with cooperators, including farmers and ranchers, so that they can see those areas. Well, in terms of where we want to stop fire and protect those communities, including those private lands that you're mentioning. Speaker 6: all right. Thank you.
▶ 0:59:08And when wildfires finally contained, the work is far from over, obviously. And there's often a limited window to begin the recovery. What is the forest service doing to speed up appropriate salvage logging, tree removal and reforestation after the wildfire? And what changes can help from congress would allow this work to begin sooner? Speaker 5: um, Mr. chairman, Mr. valadao, there's a lot of stuff worked into that question. So post-fire recovery is one of the biggest things we have to focus on. So we have different funding sources.
▶ 0:59:37So immediately after fire we have bare funding and that's funding. That's suppression to actually put things back into place, whether it's seeding, whether it's fixing roads, bridges immediately at a direct effect of the fire, then we have other funding we can pursue to protect broader infrastructure issues that could be fencing and other things. When it comes to post-fire recovery, the salvage, um, it depends on where it's at, what infrastructure is there. But we have in some cases last year, I have an example on the colville forest. We had a fire in september. We had the environmental assessment completed within two weeks.
▶ 1:00:06The salvage operation was completed within three months of the fire. So there's opportunities to move forward with categorical exclusions, other things that we can do to expedite this. The other piece is also looking at. We also have to get trees planted in many parts of the landscape. In california, for instance, you can look at many of those big fires, and we talk about a big fire being 100,000 acres. That's a small fire in california. Unfortunately, we've had 2 million acre fires in california in the last six years. Caldor fire was 230 000 acres.
▶ 1:00:34When you look at what needs to be done for removing the dead trees, you know, dealing with the vegetation and brush that's come up, planting new trees. There is significant work on the landscape, reforestation that needs to happen as well. So all of that is the work that we need to do to recover the forest post-fire. Speaker 6: thank you. My time is expired, so I yield back to the very senior chairman of the committee. Speaker 1: thank you, Mr. valadao. Turn now to the gentleman from new mexico, Mr.
▶ 1:01:04Vazquez, for his five minutes of questions. Speaker 7: thank you, Mr. chairman. Uh, chief schultz, thank you for being here with us today. It's great to meet you. Um, Mr. Mr. schultz, as you know, the creation of the forest service dates back to the 1900s as our nation was experiencing an industrial boom full fueled by intense resource extraction and timber harvesting across the west.
▶ 1:01:25Republican president teddy roosevelt understood that there needed to be a check on the influence of wealthy timber companies and railroad tycoons, who saw the forest only as a commodity, not as an ecosystem, prioritizing short term financial gain over the long term health of our forests. The agency was founded then to balance conservation, recreation, timber production, resource extraction, grazing, watershed management, wildlife habitat and sustainable timber stocks so that these lands would endure and be productive for future generations.
▶ 1:01:55Chief schultz, do you believe that you follow these guiding principles of folks like teddy roosevelt and gifford pinchot? Speaker 5: Mr. chairman, Mr. vasquez, yes, I do believe we follow those principles. Speaker 7: well, that's great, because today I feel like we're traveling back in time and we're facing some of the exact same issues and the exact dilemma that these great leaders once faced in new mexico. We pride ourselves on finding a balance between extraction and conservation, because we know with good conservation and management we can do both.
▶ 1:02:24Our public lands define us as a people in new mexico and as a state, but unfortunately, we're being hampered in that mission. Uh, we've lost now 372 U.S. forest service employees in new mexico that have been either fired or forced into retirement. Wildfire season here is now year round, and we've seen the most devastating fires over the last several years at great damage to our homes, ranches, watersheds and rural communities.
▶ 1:02:51Last year alone, more than 180,000 acres burned across new mexico, including in the trout and buck fires. And I was there visiting just last week. Families lost homes, ranchers lost grazing land and fencing, where thousands and thousands of dollars communities were displaced and left facing. Years of recovery. In new mexico, catastrophic wildfires are our major disasters.
▶ 1:03:13Yet, as we desperately need the resources to prepare for fire and mitigate its impacts, the forest service's carrying out the largest reorganization in its history while cutting staff across the nation. Now, I've personally met with laid off fire trail crews in my district in the gila national forest, where the folks who clear the way for fire lines in our wilderness areas in the most remote areas of the gila were given pink slips right before fire season. Chief.
▶ 1:03:38The forest service does not need a chaotic doge style overhaul, and we've seen how that's worked in other agencies. I think what we need is for you to stand up for its mission to support the public servants who work across our country, and to allocate the speaker 8: the resources where they're desperately needed. So, chief schultz, let me ask you, um, how do you justify cutting over 500 usda jobs, 300 plus forest service jobs in new mexico during one of the most drought stricken summers after some of our largest wildfires?
▶ 1:04:08Speaker 5: Mr. Mr. vasquez, what I will tell you is that when you look at the firefighting we have today, as I mentioned in my statement, we actually have more firefighters today than we've had in the recent past. So we have 11,800 firefighters, which we've exceeded our target for this year. When it comes to other employees. I tried to go through this again. We came into this cycle and at the end of 24, early 25, there was a $750 million budget shortfall.
▶ 1:04:33The forest service does not have the funding to maintain the staffing levels that it had in 2024. The agency brought on close to 7000 new employees over about a four year period. The intent was never to keep those employees long term. The intent was always to let those folks go. So what we're trying to do is, is address the shortfall in funding.
▶ 1:04:51And and you're right, there have been instances where it's not been equal in terms of how we've done this, but the intent is through this reorganization, to push more resources from desks to the forest and the districts to get that work done. Speaker 8: thank you chief. Well, I couldn't agree more. And those were folks that were were in the forest.
▶ 1:05:08And in in our case, as we talk about allocating resources, if they're limited, uh, certainly you should ask congress for more money to make sure that those trail crews can get into those wilderness areas to cut those vital, uh, pathways to cut fire lines in our wilderness areas, which are very remote and hard to get to, especially in places like the gila. Now you're planning to relocate your entire dc headquarters to salt lake city. Uh, and, chief, I want you to be honest with me and with this committee.
▶ 1:05:35How would you describe the morale of your employees at headquarters right now? Speaker 5: uh, Mr. chairman, Mr. vasquez, I think the morale at headquarters varies. So we have approximately 750 people assigned to the washington office. Half of those folks already work in the field. So half of those 750 already work across the west and elsewhere.
▶ 1:05:56Of the folks in dc, the roughly 350 we're anticipating right now, probably less than 100 of them are going to have to relocate. Thank you chief. Those folks have to relocate. They're going to have more stress than those that aren't going to have to relocate. Speaker 8: thank you chief. Well, my time is expiring and I just want to again encourage you to look at your greatest resource, your employees, as the greatest resource and and truly believe in the mission and the forest service and follow after the footsteps of gifford pinchot and teddy roosevelt. Thank you.
▶ 1:06:26Chairman, I yield back. Speaker 1: thanks. The gentleman from new mexico. Now we turn to the gentleman from california, Mr. costa, for his five minutes of questions. Speaker 9: thank you very much, Mr. chairman, for holding. I think this important, uh, subcommittee hearing continuing, uh, oversight that I think is so critical for our forests around the country and our ranking members, and for your approach and, and input, because I think we share a lot of similar concerns. And it's always good to see the chairman.
▶ 1:06:55Um, I've made no secret of my frustration with this reorganization plan, uh, going back to last year. I mean, I still am trying to find the, the campaign efforts by the president when he was running that boy, his first priority was going to be to reorganize the department of agriculture.
▶ 1:07:18And, uh, the presentation, the justification, uh, the public input, the regional efforts, I think, have all been lacking. Let me get to the heart of today's discussion. Um, president's budget eliminates funding for forest and rangeland research and collaborative forest landscape restoration program, more than quadrupling the funding for the forest products area.
▶ 1:07:41Would you concur, uh, chief schultz, with the, uh, statement that we no longer have a fire season, but it's a fire year throughout so much of our country, certainly including western states. Speaker 5: Mr. chairman, I, I would agree with that, that the fire season extends beyond just what we think of a traditional season. And it's across the country. It's not just in the. Speaker 9: no, I know, I know, I said western states and throughout the country. Um, so therefore aren't we robbing peter to pay.
▶ 1:08:10Paul approach cutting research and prevention policy only to pay for more, more wildfire suppression down the road. Speaker 5: so, Mr. chairman, Mr. costa, you talked about the president's budget, which is true, that research is zeroed out in the budget. Speaker 9: how will these cuts affect future suppression costs? Speaker 5: well, we would anticipate as research would not be done necessarily by the federal entities but by others. Speaker 9: would you provide an analysis to the subcommittee here and the full committee?
▶ 1:08:43Speaker 5: um. Mr. Mr. because I'm not sure I understood that question. Speaker 9: you're going to skip the question. Speaker 5: no, I didn't understand the question. Speaker 9: would you commit to coordinating that analysis of these impacts of these cuts and provide the results to the committee? Speaker 5: uh, Mr. chairman, Mr. costa, right now we're looking at the house, mark, that has been provided by house interior appropriations, and we don't see those cuts reflected in the house mark right now. Speaker 9: well, I, I mean, you either will look at the impacts or you won't.
▶ 1:09:11I mean, I think it's a pretty clear question. Speaker 5: so we have not done an analysis. I have nothing to share. Speaker 9: will you commit to the subcommittee that you will look for such an analysis? Speaker 5: uh, Mr. chair, Mr. costa, should there be those reductions take place? We will look at that impact. Speaker 9: those reductions are going to take place. Uh, chief, I you know, the agency's expanded timber in certain areas. Regions, I think makes sense.
▶ 1:09:37I support that, but the funding cuts that are involved in your reorganization plan, 20 out of 57 offices being closed. Uh, let me give you a take on california, because I guess we're your favorite target and not in a good way. Uh, six offices being closed. Uh. They are.
▶ 1:09:59Anderson, fresno, chico, fort bragg, mount shasta, hat creek, uh, research that I think is cutting into the muscle, uh, all the way to the bone in terms of the, uh, necessary research that's taking place.
▶ 1:10:19Let me go further to implement or the impacts to, to california that I, I find very troubling, not only to the closure of those offices, but let me tell you, uh, in california, the net changes forest service 515 reduction, 9%, national park service 183 employees, 9% cutback. Geological survey 220 24% cutback. Bureau of land management 139 cuts 17% cut.
▶ 1:10:50U.S. fish and wildlife 130 17% cut. Uh. It goes on. Bureau of reclamation and indian affairs, bureau of safety and environmental enforcement. Let me tell you the impacts to our national forest, our parks, our wildlife, and our refuge rangelands. They are a source of drinking water for millions. Habitat for fish and wildlife, grazing lands for ranchers, economic lifeblood of rural communities. You know that. I don't have to tell you. Let me.
▶ 1:11:17Furthermore, 18% fewer hydrologists, 22% fewer soil scientists, 33% fewer ecologists, 57% fewer etymologists, 60% fewer plant pathologists, all in california. Monitoring water and snow and avalanche for drought. We had a 19% cut, 19% sensitive weather and snowpack measurements that are key to managing our water supply. Further cutbacks. It makes no sense.
▶ 1:11:43List me doubtful on this reorganization plan, because I don't think you're taking into the accounts the important role and the job that is being done by these people who've dedicated their lives. In many instances, my time is expired. But, Mr. chairman, I want to continue this conversation because, uh, out west and in california, we're not happy campers. Speaker 1: thank you, Mr. costa. Now turn to the lady from hawaii, Mr. cuda, for five minutes.
▶ 1:12:13Speaker 10: thank you, Mr. chair. Good morning, Mr. schultz. The institute of pacific island forestry, or ipf, is the forest service's premier research center for tropical forests, invasive species, wildlife resilience and ecosystem health across hawaii and the U.S. pacific territories. Ipf is also one of the 57 of 77 research facilities that your department is proposing to close. Now.
▶ 1:12:39Usda claims that these planned closures are intended to move federal resources closer to the communities you serve. So I'm very confused why you would propose closing this facility in hilo that studies the trees that are literally in their backyard, like across the parking lot from their labs.
▶ 1:12:56I know this because I visited the facility in may just recently, and saw firsthand the unique instruments and tools that ipf uses to conduct invasive species and wildlife resilience research that are critical to our state and the pacific territories. We've been told the proposal to close ipf is strictly a business decision. If this is a truly business decision, the math just does not add up.
▶ 1:13:24The forest service holds a $1 lease on this facility through 2067, making it one of the least expensive research stations in your portfolio, especially in a high value real estate market like hawaii, Mr. schultz, is ipf still being considered for closure, and if so, what are their factors other than cost? Are you considering in your assessments. Speaker 5: Mr. chairman? Mr.
▶ 1:13:54Cuda um, so we are still evaluating the sites. So we talked about 20 sites to be retained. There were 57 sites that were still evaluating. This site is still being evaluated. Um the information I have doesn't suggest a $1 lease. Um, it's much more than that. We're looking at probably closer to $167,000. Speaker 10: that is your utility costs. I know this and there is a $2 million deferred maintenance as a result of usda not keeping up with the maintenance, but the replacement cost for the facility is $17 million, right?
▶ 1:14:23Speaker 5: so the point being is this discussion has created a dialog with other folks that use the facility. We have about 15 forest service employees in that entire facility of about 80 people. So we're looking at whether it's other partners helping facilitate rents, whether it's the fish and wildlife service. There are other state agencies, there's other federal agencies that are there. But this whole dialog has created a way to look at how we can fund that site differently. So we've not made any determination to close that yet. It's on the list for evaluation.
▶ 1:14:52And part of that evaluation process across the country is to talk with partners about how we can meet the costs that are there, whether it's deferred maintenance. Speaker 10: Mr. schultz, I have a limited amount of time, so I just want to be clear, it is still being evaluated because I will say that when you rolled out this plan, these facilities weren't labeled as being evaluated. They were labeled as being closed. This is highly disruptive to both the morale and the functioning of being able to get research dollars and research going in an extremely important facility.
▶ 1:15:22This facility takes care of critical research for things like wildfire resilience, invasive species management, 2 million plus acres. And I know that doesn't seem like a lot, but we live on islands in the middle of an ocean, 2 million plus acres in hawaii and american samoa in guam, in cnmi, this is the region that we take care of here. And by the way, even to move facilities like was suggested in the initial report, we live on islands.
▶ 1:15:49You can't drive to even consider the cost of operating research facilities outside of if if would require you to get on a plane, even from another island where potentially. But we're limited in lab space to potentially. You might be residing. Try and do this. Mr. schultz, what I would ask you, as you're evaluating these metrics, I'd like, first of all, some certainty of time, because we have valuable research being taken place in this facility.
▶ 1:16:19And every day of uncertainty means we potentially lose valuable researchers at this institution. But secondly, come fly to hawaii, do what I do every single week from here, fly to hawaii, get on a plane, and see how long it actually takes. By the way, you probably can't fly direct to hilo. You have to fly to oahu and then fly and see how far it actually takes to get to a. And then fly between the islands and then jump on another plane and get to guam and see an mi and american samoa.
▶ 1:16:49And then you'll see when you're talking about bringing resources closer to the community, you'll see you're sitting on one of the most inexpensive, most valuable, prized, highly intensive for research institute that we have in the pacific that you have are now currently evaluating foreclosure. So I welcome you to hawaii, and I look forward to you take getting on the plane like I do every single week, getting toy and seeing the important work that's being done right in the middle of the pacific. Thank you, Mr. chair. I yield back. Speaker 1: thank you, Mr. cuda.
▶ 1:17:20I hope that invitation extends to all of us. The gentleman from indiana, Mr. baird, recognized for five minutes of questions. Speaker 11: thank you, Mr. chairman and ranking member, and appreciate the witness being here today and the opportunity to talk about the forests and forest management. But, you know, much like agriculture, forestry depends on having a reliable domestic markets.
▶ 1:17:41And when local mills close, forest management becomes more difficult because there's nowhere to go with the lower value of material and, and the material that we are producing. So beyond simplicity, increasing timber sales, what is the forest service doing to strengthen domestic markets for forest products so that we can have an active forest management program that becomes economically sustainable? Mr. shaw. Speaker 5: Mr. chairman, Mr. barrett, I think it's a great question. Thank you.
▶ 1:18:10So just to put this in perspective, the forest service provides less than about 6% of all of the logs that are used in this country on an annual basis. So most of the lumber that is produced in this country comes from private lands. Let's be straight about that. So the work that the forest service does in many cases supports local landowners. Um, we have different grants that we offer. We have wood innovation grants.
▶ 1:18:36We issued this past year close to $100 million in grants to private organizations that enable them to either expand or invest in infrastructure to create that when it comes to markets. There was recently a meeting in the last two months in madison, wisconsin, called markets matter, hosted by the us endowment. The forest service worked alongside the endowment to host this meeting. It was about a three day meeting. The intent was to create a roadmap for how to go forward to increase markets across the country.
▶ 1:19:05As we we talk about this, this issue is not unique to any one part of the country. It's in the south, it's in the west, it's in the midwest. It's in the northeast. There is a lack of markets. When I talk about the biggest threat to forests in the profession of forestry, it's a lack of markets. If landowners don't have markets for their products, they will convert their lands to some other use. So we're working closely with a variety of entities to look at how we can expand markets.
▶ 1:19:34And there's a roadmap that's coming forward from the us endowment that's going to that will likely be discussed at probably before a committee like this at some point about what can be done from a policy perspective, what can be done from an investment and infrastructure perspective, and then from a research perspective. So those are all areas. There was a three day summit on this. Forest service participated in that. But we do have programs. We offer grant money to make those types of investments. You're right.
▶ 1:19:59There is there's a role for the forest to produce and create certainty for investment off the national forest. But again, most of the production in this country comes from private lands.I had y out of indiana, uh, the forest were producing more than we're harvesting. So we had a net positive gain of, of board footage of timber. But my next question deals with something I'm kind of interested in.
▶ 1:20:23Uh, the farm bill joyce beatty we put in, we put in a demonstration plot for, um, biochar. And I'm really interested in biochar. When you think about the progress in illinois, for example, and how that how much we had the black soil, uh, which everybody recognizes is very productive. Um, and a lot of that had to do with because it was in forest land for long periods of time.
▶ 1:20:50So, so my question is, how is the forest service evaluating opportunities to turn hazardous fuels and low waste, uh, woody material and biomass into marketable products like biochar? Just give your impression of that. Speaker 5: you bet, Mr. chairman. Mr. baird so there are opportunities. There are certain producers already producing biochar across the country. It's a soil amendment, as you talked about, that can be used in farmlands mostly that can be used a little bit on forest land. Um you can use crop residues. You can use forestry residues to produce that product.
▶ 1:21:20Um it's something that we're definitely interested in doing that and helping facilitate that. We have numerous areas across the country on both state and federal lands where we don't have outlets for pulpwood and low value material. We see that as an opportunity to convert that material to biochar as an opportunity. So I think the encouragement that you were providing through those opportunities in the farm bill, I think will play out, but there are current commercial producers of biochar today, and we think that's a relevant product.
▶ 1:21:51Speaker 11: it's just expensive, but it's a good way to add carbon to the soil and improve the soil health and so on. That's right. Yes, I really appreciate I really appreciate us having that. I appreciate your comments. And, uh, Mr. chairman, I yield back. Speaker 1: thank you, Mr. baird. Now, I'll turn to the gentleman from california, Mr. carbajal, for five minutes. Speaker 12: thank you, Mr. chair. Chief schultz, welcome.
▶ 1:22:17I have the privilege of representing california central coast, one of the most beautiful places in our country. Truly paradise on earth. I hope you've had an opportunity to visit. And the los padres national forest is one of the crown jewels of our region. The los padres national forest supports recreation, tourism and our local communities.
▶ 1:22:37Yet my constituents continue to raise concerns about deteriorating roads, trails, recreation facilities and employee housing. The administration's fiscal year 2027 budget proposes significant reductions to the very accounts that maintain this infrastructure.
▶ 1:22:57How does the forest service expect to reduce its deferred maintenance backlog while requesting less funding for the facilities and recreation accounts that address it? Speaker 5: uh, Mr. chairman, miss carbajal. First of all, I think your points are well taken. Um, what we are looking at is the american outdoors act is providing funding for roads and trails and and others that is in the president's budget is supporting that project.
▶ 1:23:24So that funding would provide approximately $300 million a year for five years to the forest service. So we see that money being supplemental to other work that we're doing to address some of the infrastructure needs that you're talking about. The other piece I want to just mention real quickly to some of the deterioration over the last year was due to lack of hiring seasonal employees. So in fiscal year 25, we did not hire seasonal employees.
▶ 1:23:48That decision actually predated this administration coming in again because of budget shortfalls this year, we did hire seasonal employees. We advertised for 2000 seasonals. I think we currently have about 1600. So those seasonal employees do a lot of that field work that you're talking about. So we see american outdoors act being an opportunity to provide additional funding for that infrastructure work. And then the seasonal employees we think can help facilitate getting that work done as well. Speaker 12: thank you, Mr. schultz.
▶ 1:24:15I recently met with employees at the los padres national forest, who have told me that more than half of the forest service housing units in this area are uninhabitable, while employees have remained on housing waiting lists for years. How widespread is the employee housing problem across the forest service, and what is the agency doing to address it? And of course, especially in my district. Speaker 5: yes, sir. Mr. Mr.
▶ 1:24:42Carbajal, um, I would say the employee housing is not unique to your district. It's an issue across the country in many areas where national forests are. Those are high cost of living areas. So employee housing is challenged. We don't always have employee housing available. We do have cost of living adjustments that are very basically by region of the country. We also have some other allowances that we can provide to employees where it's hard to hire folks at. So those are some of the things there.
▶ 1:25:08Some of the other opportunities we look at in the farm bill in 2018, there are provisions for the forest service to look at administrative sites, and those sites can be developed for employee housing as well as housing for the public for affordable housing. So there's proposals that we're going to be seeking here in the next six months to look at some of the existing administrative sites on forest service lands to develop affordable housing, both for employees and members of the public and some of these high cost of living resort areas. Speaker 12: thank you.
▶ 1:25:37As I mentioned, I recently heard from employees at the los padres national forest, and they have also reported that some forest service facilities lack backup generators during public safety power shut offs resulting in communication outages. Has the forest service assessed whether critical facilities and high fire risk areas have adequate backup power, and what resources are available to address those needs? Speaker 5: Mr. chairman, Mr. carbajal, so I did.
▶ 1:26:07We did reach out to los padres, so we got some specific information. The community, the communications center, the dispatch center actually does have backup power and supports continuous operations during any potential outages. Um, we don't have generators at all of our facilities, but in that specific area, the dispatch area, we do have backup power should there be an outage. Speaker 12: thank you. Um, I'll go back and chat with them and see where maybe the disconnect is on the rest of the facilities.
▶ 1:26:35Chief schultz, communities across california, central coast face increasing wildfire risk and depend on programs like the community wildfire defense grant program to reduce hazards before disasters occur. Congress provided $1 billion for this program through the bipartisan infrastructure law, but there has not been a new grant announcement this fiscal year.
▶ 1:27:00Can you update us as to the status of these funds appropriated funds, explain the reason for the delay and confirm that they will be awarded to communities before the statutory deadline expires? Speaker 5: Mr. Mr. carbajal, I don't have an update on that, so we'll have to get back to you with that information, sir. Speaker 12: thank you, Mr. chair. I'm out of time, I yield back. Speaker 1: thank you, Mr. carbajal.
▶ 1:27:23And now we'll begin a second round of questions for those members that would like to further, uh, engage in conversation with the chief. Uh, I'll start. Um, Mr. schultz, the house passed. I'm sure you're aware. In the farm, bill, uh, there's language contained in that to fully provide for a full fix of the cottonwood issue.
▶ 1:27:47Uh, the forest service under both republican and democrat administrations have said that they support a fix because additional consultation is not necessary. Without a permanent fix, the agency would have to rewrite, I believe, more than a hundred different forest plans, which would take years and funding and staff hours to accomplish with no actual benefits.
▶ 1:28:11So, chief schultz, could I ask you what your views are on this cottonwood issue, and do you support a permanent legislative fix to address the challenges created by the court ruling. Speaker 5: Mr. chairman? Um, the short answer is yes, we definitely support the fix. This issue goes back to 2016. There was litigation out of montana. Um, the cottonwood center sued over forest plans where there were some changes in information.
▶ 1:28:39We have never viewed forest plans as decision plans that the work that is done subject to a forest plan, those projects have decisions so that there's actually split district court decisions on those types of issues. Um, so we have been supportive in addition to the farm bill, there's also provisions in fix our forest act to address the cottonwood decision as well, which has passed out of the house. So we do think that it's something that is needed just to put the litigation issue in perspective.
▶ 1:29:08Um, we currently have about 300 million board feet right now currently in joined about 90% of that's in region one. Overall, we have about 1.3 billion board feet. That is subject to some form of litigation. What's really interesting is when you look at that those issues, you would think maybe that region five or california would be highly litigious.
▶ 1:29:30What we have seen, the impact of wildfire has been so devastating to california that there is actually very little litigation in california over the projects that we do. The community actually is encouraging us to do more work on the ground to protect them, to clean up the forest, provide for forest health and protect communities. A lot of the litigation right now, preponderance of it is region one, which tends to be montana, north idaho. Speaker 1: interesting. Speaker 5: yes, sir. Speaker 1: uh, well very good. Appreciate that response.
▶ 1:29:58Um, you also mentioned this is something very important throughout the west. You mentioned in your testimony that grazing is a central component of the agency's multi-use mission, and that you are working to ensure that it continues to support both the landscape and the communities nearby. Could you elaborate on how the forest service is utilizing grazing as a wildfire risk reduction tool on our forest system lands?
▶ 1:30:27And do you believe that there are further opportunities for more grazing to help reduce the risk of wildfire throughout the national forest system? Speaker 5: yes, sir. Mr. chairman, um, currently, grazing is the most permitted use across the national forest. About 40% of the national forests and grasslands are permitted for grazing more than any other use that we have. What grazing does is it provides an opportunity to have management of that landscape.
▶ 1:30:55But what it does is it reduces fine fuels. Um, if we don't graze the land, whether it's through wildlife or cattle, you're going to have issues with increased fuel production, um, just through the growing of grass. So we see that being an opportunity. So targeted grazing is something that can be used in some instances, certain times of the year. When you bring cattle on to specifically target reduction of those fine fuels. Overall, what we're looking at doing in the secretary's been very bold on these issues.
▶ 1:31:20Um, there's a plan that she's got a beef plan that's out there, but one of the things we're looking at is looking at vacant allotments. So allotments that historically have gone unused in the forest service has not made those available. So we're looking at what allotments can be made available to permittees to graze those allotments. We're also looking at aum numbers across the landscape where they've been reduced, where in many cases we have permitted use that is above where the actual use is occurring. So we're trying to look at those differences.
▶ 1:31:48What caused those changes and then what we can increase in a sustainable way. Appropriate use of the landscape for grazing. We're looking to do that. Speaker 1: thank you very much. Appreciate that. Uh, I'll turn to miss salinas for her second round of questions. Speaker 2: thank you for this follow up opportunity, Mr. chairman. Uh, chief schultz, this reorganization will cost taxpayers money. Under the first trump administration, taxpayers paid an estimated $28 million to cover the cost of the 2019 reorganization of the bureau of land management.
▶ 1:32:18And after that move failed, the biden administration was forced to bring many positions back to D.C. how much is the trump administration requesting from the taxpayers for the overall reorganization of usda? Speaker 5: Mr. chairman, we have no specific line item that we're asking for to facilitate the reorganization. Speaker 2: okay.
▶ 1:32:39As I understand it, your budget calls for 55 million for reorganization, while at the same time you are slashing forest service research down to zero. I think what I'm getting at, though, really is, you know, you told us you were in a budget deficit and you were trying to do more with less. Why don't you try to do more with more?
▶ 1:33:00Why is the administration not asking for the amount that it actually needs to help us with the land management that I think we're all asking for and prevent these wildfires in the first place? Speaker 5: right? Mr. miscellaneous. I think what we're looking at overall is how do we run government in a way that provides the services to the public, the american public, that they want in a way that we can sustainably manage that long term with the appropriate amount of funding? I think there's always going to be debates about how much funding is necessary. One of the things we're trying to look at, it's not just a dollars and cents.
▶ 1:33:30It's also looking at the processes that we have. So big part of what we're looking at is the deregulatory environment. The forest service has created 3600 directives that's above the statutes, that's above regulations that have been either promulgated by congress or adopted by the agency. So we think that by reducing a lot of the red tape that we have created internally, we'll actually make things cheaper and easier to get done long term. So it's not always a fact that we need more money.
▶ 1:33:55In many cases, it's the regulatory processes that we've put in place for whatever purpose that we've done that that we think we can, we can reduce that and reduce the funding that's needed. So that's part of what's driving what we're doing as well. Um, but in terms of necessary funding to run the agency, um, we are proceeding with the reorganization. We think it's going to save money long term. And I'll just give a real quick example, the yates building, which is the building that we occupy here in D.C.
▶ 1:34:24That lease on an annual basis, we spend close to $9.5 million a year for that building. And part of that is the security for that building the forest service occupies probably about 30 to 40% of that building. At most. We anticipate moving into one floor, so the forest service cost in that building will be reduced by about 75%, down to less than $2 million a year. So when we look at that overall cost structure, just the yates building alone will save us $6 million a year.
▶ 1:34:53So over over ten years, that's $60 million. And then we look at those, the other leases that we've got, whether it's the lease in portland or milwaukee or atlanta, those are high, expensive buildings. We know we're never we've never had enough money for all the facilities. This is not a new issue. Um, whether it's the lease facilities or the owned facilities. So what we're trying to do is take a very thoughtful approach about where can we consolidate facilities and buildings. We want to retain the work that we're doing. We've had a lot of discussion about closures.
▶ 1:35:22We're not talking about closing programs. We're talking about facilities that we can co-locate, that we can utilize, whether it's other agencies like we're going to have, like in oregon, for instance, the new state office is going to co-locate with the oregon department of forestry. We're going to be co-located with the state agency. We think that's a good fit for the state. I think it's a good fit for the forest service, and it's going to be a cheaper overall structure than maintaining the buildings that we have.
▶ 1:35:47So we're trying to take a broad based approach to reduce our costs, but maintain the programs that we we deliver to the public. Speaker 2: but there will be programs that are going to be closing. We already know that you're, you know, putting the forest service research down to zero. So there will be programs within the forest service that are needed, that expertise is needed. And we will not be seeing that work get done. And so I, you know, with overwhelming negative feedback on the reorganization plan from the public, um, you'll lose hundreds of valuable staff.
▶ 1:36:15This reorganization is going to cost taxpayers millions of dollars. We've already seen about, what, $338 million in the deferred resignation resignation program. So all of these little pieces have we've already spent the taxpayers have already spent $338 million to get rid of good people, hard working people with the expertise that we need. So I'm feeling very frustrated because I've heard, you know, Mr. costa, I think, Mr.
▶ 1:36:40Carvajal, we've all asked for analysis, and it sounds like you have that analysis, but you're not sharing it with with us as you're moving along. So I I'd like to continue this conversation after this hearing and, and maybe and just get some additional feedback on a more regular basis. But thank you so much for your testimony. Thank you for being here. I yield back. Speaker 5: yes, ma'am. If I could just make one statement. There's been a lot of discussion about where there's support or no support for what we're doing.
▶ 1:37:08We did recently receive a letter from the western governors association, which is a bipartisan organization, a letter of support for the reorganization. So I just want that to be on the record. Speaker 1: thank you, Mr. schultz. Miss salinas, uh, turn to chairman thompson if he has any more questions for the second round. Um, sure. Speaker 3: you know, it's often said in my district that if sawmills don't have a market for the residuals, they they can't turn a profit.
▶ 1:37:32And when they can't turn a profit, my constituents lose their jobs both at the mill and in the actual production, harvesting of the timber itself. Uh, because of this market's for low value wood and residuals have, are especially important to me and my district. Uh, chief, how is the forest service working to expand existing markets for american forest products, and how are you working to create new, new markets as well? Speaker 5: Mr. chairman? Mr.
▶ 1:38:01Thompson, um, what we're looking at is primarily we have some grant projects. Like I said, we have about $100 million in funding that we've allocated for what innovation grants, community innovation grants to facilitate investment in the private sector to look at those types of markets. The other thing I mentioned briefly was that we had this markets matter meeting that included folks from all over the country, um, industry, academics, um, all, you know, just different entities came together to talk about a roadmap to go forward.
▶ 1:38:30Um, one of the things that we do see is there's been a reduction in pulp and paper infrastructure in the country, which in many cases, what you're talking about, the lack of outlets for residuals or pulpwood. If you're a landowner, that has been a huge impact. Like I said, whether it's the pacific northwest, what's the southeast, the northeast, the southwest, we see those issues. What so what there are there emerging industries, whether it's we talked about biochar previously. There's cogeneration, there's sustainable aviation fuel.
▶ 1:38:57There are other products that people are looking to use wood chips and wood residuals for to create other alternate markets. So what I see with the forest service can continue to do is create supply. And that's one of the things we can do is so when somebody comes in and says, we will look at building a facility, but we need certainty of supply. So we've issued some of these 20 year agreements which we think will provide some of that certainty, but also where the government can also provide some funding to facilitate that. And then also we can be a partner at the table.
▶ 1:39:27As other avenues looked at, some of the funding can come from the private sector. It's not just from the government. Um, but those are all opportunities. We think we can work with industry, with landowners to hopefully increase markets for the products that we need. Speaker 3: well, and I can tell you, this committee wants to be a, is, is a partner with you on that with through the farm bill and specifically the forestry title, uh, innovation grants and, and any other opportunities that we can find.
▶ 1:39:54Um, because, um, you know, obviously markets are a part of a healthy forest management. You, we need to have those. I want to revisit, um, the, the, around 57 research sites currently being evaluated by the forest service. Um, how were these facilities identified and where is the agency in the evaluation process? And can you explain why the forest service is considering a restructure or consolidation of these r&d sites yet? Speaker 5: uh, Mr.
▶ 1:40:22Chairman, uh, the main reason we're looking at this is that we have insufficient funding to manage the facilities that we have. It's not unique to r&d. It's across the spectrum. I mentioned we have a $37 million reduction in our facilities budget year over year. We have a $3 billion backlog in deferred maintenance. So those are the fundamental issues that are out there. We don't have the funding to manage the facilities that we have point blank. So what do we have to do?
▶ 1:40:50We have to look at our footprint and identify priorities. So we look at where's the work, where the employees, the r&d facilities that you talked about. We initially said we were going to retain 20. We were looking to close. 57 so we're still evaluating those. 57 I would anticipate in the next 6 to 8 weeks, we'll have some clarity on those 57 in terms of what ones we think should be closed versus which ones we think should be retained. This is not unique. I mean, I was in the air force. You look at a base realignment and closure commission, right?
▶ 1:41:18I mean, it's super controversial when you close facilities because it has local impacts. But we've got to take a step forward and be thoughtful about what we're looking at in terms of research and development. Just to put this in perspective, we have five research stations around the country. All five of those report independently. To me as the chief, we have a research director that didn't even provide supervision over those folks. Right. So each of those research station directors had a fair degree of autonomy on the work that they did.
▶ 1:41:46We're trying to bring that together under a single research director, provide alignment to the priorities of the organization, and then we think it will streamline research. We aren't looking to fundamentally change that other than the structure. The footprint is not to eliminate research. The footprint is to consolidate facilities within the budgeting that we have. And it's not limited to research. We're looking at facilities across the board so that we can manage within the budgets that we have. Speaker 3: um. Very good.
▶ 1:42:13One, uh, just one comment for me, something I'm looking at, obviously, and I'll get your input offline on this. It's just the attrition of sawmills, you know, the loss of sawmills, china building these huge subsidizing these huge sawmill operations in china, you know, to where it's, uh, you know, they can, uh, it's, you know, they, you know, they purchase our whole logs, they take them to china, they subsidize, uh, the milling of them and the
▶ 1:42:44Furniture, and then they sell them back to us, you know, and they do that, uh, cheaper because of the heavy government subsidies of the chinese communist government, uh, than what we can do nationally. And I to me, that's a threat to national security. And it's certainly something that, uh, that we're going to be looking at, uh, but supporting our infrastructure. You've mentioned infrastructure previously, and I appreciate that. Speaker 5: yeah. Mr. chairman, when you look at the sawmill infrastructure, you're right, it's been on decline for years.
▶ 1:43:14But what we've also seen is as the technology has improved, so sawmill that, you know, historically maybe would have produced 100,000,000ft now could maybe produce 300,000,000ft. So in terms of the number of facilities, we definitely have less. When you look at the capacity of the country in terms of what we could produce in the south, for instance, we're still at probably less than 70% capacity. So with the existing infrastructure that we have, we could actually produce more lumber in this country without even building new mills.
▶ 1:43:43The problem we have is where we have some areas where we know we need to treat the ground, particularly national forest, where that infrastructure does not exist, right? So what we want to do is we want to retain the facilities and the infrastructure we have, and then we want to look for areas where the forest service can at least step up and say, we can provide certainty of supply and then encourage investment in those areas. But there is not an overall shortage of capacity in the country to produce lumber.
▶ 1:44:10It's there is a lack of markets for those end products, which actually hurts the ability. So if you're a sawmill and 30 to 40% of every log that goes through makes chips, and that chip product now used to have revenue source out of that. Now it costs you to have that go away to be taken somewhere and have a tipping fee. That's the problem.
▶ 1:44:31If we had better markets for those products, then I think you're going to see additional investment in the infrastructure we have and then look at encouraging other investment outside of that. Speaker 3: very good. Thank you chairman. Speaker 1: thank you. Appreciate that. And now turn to Mr. baird. Recognize Mr. baird for his five minutes of questions. Speaker 11: thank you, Mr. chairman and ranking member.
▶ 1:44:53You know, my question deals with the fact that and you mentioned earlier that a lot of the land and the forest land in, uh, around the country is owned by private landowners, like 90, 95%.
▶ 1:45:05But anyway, they use the same kind of, um, uh, the same kind of tools that we use in because they probably got other farmland as well, but they've also been hit in recent years by natural disasters, insect infestations, disease outbreaks, and the mill closures that have been referred to 2 or 3 times. Um, and the market uncertainty.
▶ 1:45:29So how can congress and the forest service work together to better serve the forest products industry in the wake of disasters that can disseminate the forest or decimate the forest at no fault of the producer? So just giving you the opportunity, I think, to make some final thoughts about how we might work together better. Speaker 5: Mr. chairman. Mr. baird, I think that's a broad question. So when you think about disaster, so we've got wildfire disasters, we've got hurricane disasters.
▶ 1:45:57I look at hurricane helene. So october of 24, hurricane killeen came up the southeast, right? It came up through georgia, south carolina, north carolina, virginia. You look at the impact to landowners, um, particularly forested landowners. It was significant. So there were some programs available from the government for funding. I think it was probably not as much as those landowners would have liked, but there was some funding provided to them to help them enable them to salvage some of that, that dead material, and then hopefully replant some of that.
▶ 1:46:26So I think there's certain programs like that in the event of an actual disaster, I think there's supplemental funding that sometimes, whether there's a flood, whether there's a wildfire that congress looks at on a on a periodic basis to see if there's supplemental disaster funding that can be provided. I think the bigger issue, though, when you think long term with markets, I would encourage a subcommittee hearing on those types of things, bring in the industry, bring in landowners and ask them for their thoughts and opinions. And that's what we did at this markets matter discussion. But I think there's a role. It's not just federal lands.
▶ 1:46:55The federal land component is there where we can provide certainty of supply to those mills and those areas. We need to do that. But outside of that, a lot of the land in the south, for instance, which is the wood basket of the country, about 45% of the lumber that we produce in this country comes from the southeast. Just so we're tracking you look at the hardwood industry. So, Mr. chairman's backyard, the hardwood industry has been hit super hard. We have exported so many hardwood jobs overseas in the manufacturing of furniture.
▶ 1:47:24Um, and so much of that those industries have been hit. I think those industries have their own thoughts on what could be done, whether it's trade policy or other things that need to be looked at. So I think there's trade policy issues, even how we import pulpwood, you know, pulp, we import about a third of this country. Pulp we use in this country is imported. We could easily produce that pulp in this country. Right. So there's so whether it's trade policies, whether it's investments, whether how we do partnerships, um, all of those things need to be considered. But I would encourage you to continue to work with landowners.
▶ 1:47:53Um, the forest service can be a part of that discussion, work with industry, um, and work with ngos. There's a lot of ngos, one of the largest groups that does work with the forest service, as Mr. chairman knows, is the wild turkey federation. Um, they do a lot of work to encourage and improve habitat across the country on national forest system lands, the wild turkey federation. So it's, it's all over the place and people doing this work, but there's a lot of ideas out there. Speaker 11: thank you for that answer.
▶ 1:48:21And, you know, I think we, uh, on the ag committee and the chairman and the members, when we had these listening sessions around the around the country, we found a lot of the information that you were suggesting that. And we got forest information. So, uh, I respect your opinion about making sure we have meetings and let people have the opportunity to have input, I yield back. Mr. chairman, gentleman. Yield. Speaker 3: gentleman. Yield. Speaker 11: yes, sir. Speaker 3: okay.
▶ 1:48:47I just want to note, um, you know, one of the things we I mean, there's just some common sense we can look at as well. And I'll, I'll just point to the department of war. I mean, who are supposed to do a buy america? Uh, and you can imagine with all of the, uh, everything that we have with the department of war and we're an army family, very proud of that. Um, but the fact is that they have sought and achieved a waiver when it comes to buying wood forest products.
▶ 1:49:14Um, they buy them overseas and, and I think they're buying them from folks who, quite frankly, I don't think are real friendly to us. And so there are some internal things from a market perspective that we need to look at as well. Uh, having waivers like that are just totally unacceptable when it comes to forest products. So, and I yield back to jim and jim yields back, I assume. Speaker 1: thank you, Mr. chairman. I think we have license to bend the rules just a little bit with you.
▶ 1:49:43So, uh, appreciate that response and that conversation. And thanks for, uh, a seed of a topic for a future hearing. I think that's very valid one. Uh, well, as we bring this hearing to a close, I want to turn to my ranking member before adjournment to see if she has any closing comments. Miss salinas. Speaker 2: Mr. chairman, I again want to thank you for convening us.
▶ 1:50:09And thank you again, chief schultz, um, for being here for this conversation and this hearing. Um, as we face another devastating and dangerous wildfire season. The american people deserve the confidence that the forest service is focused on its core mission of protecting lives, communities, and the forest system that millions rely on.
▶ 1:50:28Today's hearing underscored that major organizational changes are taking away from that mission reorganization, with the explicit goal of reducing the department of ag's workforce by 23% and the forest service's workforce by 15% makes our communities less safe. With fewer employees, we risk diverting attention and resources at a time when the agency and our communities at risk of wildfires can least afford that disruption.
▶ 1:50:55Not only does the reorg make us less safe, it's wildly unpopular, and it is a wasteful use of taxpayer dollars, and it goes against the core mission of the forest service. I know this subcommittee will continue exercising its oversight responsibilities to ensure that any changes made by the trump administration are lawful, transparent and in the best interest of our nation's firefighters and public lands and the communities they serve.
▶ 1:51:21So I look forward to remaining engaged on these important issues, and I expect to continue this conversation with the administration and with you as you move forward with any proposed changes. Thank you. And I yield back. Speaker 1: thank you, miss salinas. Um, well, let me just make a few comments. First of all, chief schultz said any time we can invite the national wild turkey federation to a hearing, I'm all in. So thanks for that suggestion. But we we just want to thank you for being here today.
▶ 1:51:48Answer our questions as you tell them across the spectrum, a lot of interest in what it is you do every single day. And thanks for the updates on all of the varied issues that are before the forest service. It's clear to me that you are trying to do much to improve how the agency operates. So thank you for that. And you're doing a lot of thinking about the many challenges that face our national forest system. And all of us appreciate that work.
▶ 1:52:16Um, a focus on improving forest health, ramping up wildfire risk reduction, and supporting local forest products, all related and all important. And as miss salinas suggested, as the process continues and more details emerge, all of us are eager to learn more about the ongoing agency reorganization.
▶ 1:52:41It's my hope that we will see benefits by moving towards a state based structure that prioritizes active management, while continuing to support the support for important activities, including that much needed, uh, research. So thank you again for all of your efforts.
▶ 1:53:01Uh, seeing no further members here in wanting to ask questions under the rules of the committee, the record of today's hearing will remain open for ten calendar days to receive additional material and supplementary written responses from the witnesses to any questions that were posed by a member. So with that, the hearing of the subcommittee on forestry and horticulture is adjourned. Speaker 13: thank you. Good job. Speaker 1: thank you very much.