▶ 0:23:38Chair Cardin: Work the senate foreign relations committee will come to order. First, let me say, as one of my last responsibilities in chairing this hearing, it could not be a more appropriate subject for today's hearing, the implementation of the global magnitsky laws. And to have our two distinguished when that are here. I want to thank the members of the committee for their cooperation during my term and as chair of the committee. It has been an incredible honor. I want to thank senator risch for his cooperation.
▶ 0:24:08Chair Cardin: I want to acknowledge that while this is so appropriate, while I was a freshman member of this committee, sitting where senator helmy is sitting today, I got engaged with the tragedy of sergei magnitsky. It was during that period of time that we were working with william browder, while working with sergei magnitsky's tragic circumstances of being in prison, and we wanted to do something about it.
▶ 0:24:37Chair Cardin: So I introduced the sergei magnitsky rule of law accountability act as a way of saying that we are going to hold abusers accountable, even if their own country does not come and I think the story is well understood. Sergei magnitsky was a young attorney. He represented a client, discovered corruption, significant corruption, $230 million, tax revenues that were taken.
▶ 0:25:05Chair Cardin: He did what any lawyer is required to do, and that his report it to the authorities. As a result of reported to the authorities in russia, they arrested him. They encouraged him to recount his testimony. He refused to do that. They tortured him and murdered him. And we wanted to make sure there was accountability for that action.
▶ 0:25:30Chair Cardin: To tell you we were encouraged by the greatest advocate I've ever met, bill browder, that this crime should not go without accountability. So we did something different in the sergei magnitsky rule of law accountability act. We imposed sanctions on the individual. And as part of that, we had a lot of country sanctions that would apply if a country did something that was wrong.
▶ 0:26:01Chair Cardin: We use it today, for example, when russia invaded ukraine, we had sanctions against russia. When iran violated their nuclear sanctions, we had sanctions against iran. In this case, we had individual sanctions that really hurt the abuser. Because it prevents them from traveling to the united states or using our banking system, something that they want to do. They want to be protected by the rule of law, even though they are in countries that do not respect the rule of law.
▶ 0:26:30Chair Cardin: And it has worked, but the matter that we learned quickly, I would say senator risch and I understand this very dramatically, it is up to congress to take action. The executive branch is slow to respond to these types of circumstances, and it has been the legislative branch of government that has been the one that has responded with action, and senator risch is the person who has held your position when I first came to this committee,
▶ 0:27:03Chair Cardin: Senator lugar are who worked with me so that we could get the sergei magnitsky rule of law before our committee before a vote, and I will be always indebted to him. It was effective. So effectively decided to make it global and make it permanent. And I want to thank the lady senator john mccain, who was a real champion of the global magnitsky laws.
▶ 0:27:29Chair Cardin: It helped that he had a leadership position on the armed services committee, because we got it into the national defense authorization act, and I want to thank also senator walker for his and credit -- senator wicker for his incredible work getting these laws passed.
▶ 0:27:47Chair Cardin: When you leave, other countries follow commands thanks to our efforts and bill browder's efforts, two dozen countries have now passed the magnitsky sanctions, and it truly is the global standard for penalizing abusers, for the actions that they have taken.
▶ 0:28:05Chair Cardin: So seven years ago, the first sanctions under the global magnitsky act included the former president of gambia, for his terror, a packet his terror, a pa pakistani and insurgent leading a traffic network, an israeli mining executive who enriched himself with corrupt ceilings, costing the democratic republic of congo, one of the poorest nations in the welcome more than $1 billion of revenue.
▶ 0:28:29Chair Cardin: And just this year, we see in the magnitsky sanctions used on a cambodian businessman who trafficked workers in scam mills that stole victims money. Two georgians who encouraged violent attacks against professors, journalists, and police officer. A former member of the haiti parliament who helped form one of the most violent gangs in the country. These sanctions are being utilized, and they are working.
▶ 0:28:57Chair Cardin: We are very proud of the effort that this committee and the united states senate have done in advancing these areas. Back to senator mccain for one moment, it was his suggestion that we tighten the use of the magnitsky sanctions against corruption, and he was responsible for expanding the sanctions for corruption. The biden administration recognizes that corruption is a core U.S.
▶ 0:29:22Chair Cardin: National security interest, and we have passed in this committee the combating global corruption act, which is now the law of the land thanks to the help of senator young, which is now a strategy to combat corruption by our missions around the world.
▶ 0:29:39Chair Cardin: So to this year, yes, we can celebrate our success, but we need to talk about cosby the future of targeted sanctions, how we can -- talk about the future of targeted sanctions, how we can see one day the inaction of the legislation I've authored some of the international protection of freedom act, which passed our committee, and it may require work in future congresses, and I encourage my colleagues to keep a close eye on the bill and get
▶ 0:30:10Chair Cardin: It close to the finish line. I also want to acknowledge one of bill browder's recommendations, that we have two dozen countries that have magnitsky sanctions. Can't we coordinate this better? We've had several hundred individuals who have been sanctioned under magnitsky, but there is not a coordination that have a magnitsky type of sanctions.
▶ 0:30:32Chair Cardin: I think it is incumbent upon all government officials, we have an obligation to advance policies that pursue freedom and this is especially true of those of us who live in democracies. It is our foreign policy that distinguishes us from the autocratic countries of the world, and I think we have a responsibility to make sure that we can do this better.
▶ 0:30:58Chair Cardin: We have two very distinguish when this is that I will have a chance to introduce with greater introductions, but just to acknowledge adam keith, who is a career of upholding human rights abusers accountable, and bill browder, who was the client, this company was the client of sergei magnitsky, and he is the chief advocate for the passage of the magnitsky sanctions here and around the world. And with that, let me yield to the distinguished ranking member, senator risch.
▶ 0:31:26Sen. Risch: Well, Mr. chairman, thank you, and it is hearing, and as we wind down this congress, certainly this will go down as an important legacy, one of the legacy that you leave behind. It has been a real honor and privilege working with you and getting to know many who are here today, and I'm glad to see her join us for this particular hearing.
▶ 0:31:51Sen. Risch: I want to make a few remarks about the magnitsky act, and the sanctions legislation has helped hold accountable those around the globe accused of corruption and human rights divorces. In 2012, the magnitsky sanctions were recently written to counter russia scheme and other illegal activities, their expansion has enabled people across the U.S. to clear the way for people across the world to fight for the rights.
▶ 0:32:21Sen. Risch: I appreciate hearing how we can strengthen this through coordination. I think this is incredibly important. Our sanctions work best when we do coordinate with other countries. Since 2016, the global tool have been used almost 250 times against individuals and 300 times on entities. While significant, we must always consider how to expand and improve implementation in the most effective way. Over the past week, the georgian government has brutally cracked down on pro-eu demonstrations.
▶ 0:32:50Sen. Risch: We have to consider how we can use the tools at our disposal to defend basic rights and preserve an environment where people can freely and fairly decide their future. To senator shaheen, I want to thank you for this morning, the phone call with the president of georgia that we had. It was enlightening, and hopefully we will be able to make some progress in that regard. First, the role of congress and sanctions designations have been challenged.
▶ 0:33:19Sen. Risch: The law requires the president to respond to the leadership of this committee within 120 days of receiving a global magnitsky letter. The response must include a determination if a foreign person has engaged in sanction activity. Along with the chairman, I've written numerous letters to the department of state recommending sanctions and has not -- have not received a single summative response from this administration -- substantive response from this administration. I assure you, Mr.
▶ 0:33:47Sen. Risch: Chairman, we will pursue this into the next administration, and I've already opened negotiations in that regard. A very clear example of this is sudan. On april 19, I read a letter to president biden joined by chairman cornyn, representative mccall, urgently requesting -- chairman cardin, representative mccall, urgently requesting magnitsky at against jordan for the state department replied
▶ 0:34:17Sen. Risch: With "we will consider how best to use designations under global magnitsky and other authorities to advance our policy objectives without undermining ongoing negotiations." while they blew us off, we also did not receive a report on determination that is required by law.
▶ 0:34:38Sen. Risch: In the meantime for them the biden administration's has continuously held talks in janetta and geneva, all failures , while millions are to place in sudan. We welcome of regional stability is under threat from an outside actors, including through uae support to the rss engaged in a proxy war.
▶ 0:34:59Sen. Risch: This is a clear missed opportunities to use global magnitsky sanctions, and I have no doubt it is exactly what you had in mind, chairman, when we did this. Congress does not have insight in the process and has seen unbalanced approaches to which individuals are sanctioned.
▶ 0:35:19Sen. Risch: In particular, the delayed timing, the sanction of the convicted former presidents of ecuador, korea, lack of sanctions against the former president of argentina, cristina fernandez, are concerning. With that, I look forward to hearing more from the witnesses on how we can improve this important tool and carry your legacy forward, Mr. chair.
▶ 0:35:42Chair Cardin: Thank you, senator risch. You underscored the point I made in the beginning, and that is it is up to congress to make sure these policies do not end in force. I've worked with the by demonstration and work with the trump administration, and I'm proud of the record of both of those -- biden administration and worked with the trump administration, and I'm proud of those records.
▶ 0:36:13Chair Cardin: But I very much support that, and I appreciate you mentioning senator shaheen and georgia. Absolutely, we hope that the magnitsky sanctions will be helpful in getting georgia on the right path, because what is happening there today as we speak, on the ground, is unacceptable, what the current authorities are doing against the people of georgia. That is a prime example of where the magnitsky sanctions can help.
▶ 0:36:40Chair Cardin: And sudan, just tragic situations there, using every tool and our diplomatic toolbox to help deal with the crisis in sudan. I appreciate you mentioning those issues, and I can tell you, I will be working with bill browder. We will do the best we can in the next congress. We have two very distinguished witnesses today. Let me first introduce Mr. adam keith, the senior director for accountability at the U.S.
▶ 0:37:11Chair Cardin: Nonprofit organization for human rights first, where he oversees the organization's work with civil society groups, using the global magnitsky act and other tools to seek accountability for human rights abuses and corruption. He worked for 10 years as a career civil servant in the united states department state, including on the national security council staff, and he has consulted with the U.S. holocaust memorial museum and the open society of justice initiative. Our second when this is Mr.
▶ 0:37:41Chair Cardin: William browder, who was the largest foreign investor in russia until 2005, when he was denied entry to the country -- join the group here. [laughter] and a clear threat for national security for exposing corruption in the russian state owned companies. As I indicated, it was his company that was the client of sergei magnitsky.
▶ 0:38:04Chair Cardin: Bill browder has told that story to the global community through "red notice," I was one of the people who said, "gee, I did not know you did what you did," but it does tell the story, and it is accurate in exposing what happened in russia, when sergei magnitsky was murdered, and is still. Happening in russia today Mr.
▶ 0:38:34Chair Cardin: Browder has sought justice outside of russia, a global campaign for governments around the world to impose target abuses and asset freezes on human rights abuses and highly corrupt officials. We thank both of you for being here. Your full statements will be made part of the record. We ask, if you could, try to summarize your statement to about five minutes, and we will be engaged in a conversation. Mr. keith.
▶ 0:38:58Mr. Keith: Thank you. Chairman cardin, ranking member rich, thank you very much for holding this hearing on the implementation of the global magnitsky sanctions and the opportunity to testify before the committee for human rights first is a nonprofit organization that for more than four decades has it pressed the united states to uphold human rights.
▶ 0:39:19Mr. Keith: We have an informal global correlation of society organizations that target magnitsky style sanctions as a way to promote human rights against corruption and abuses. The united states is now one of several countries that have this tool. As the executive branch implements the global magnitsky act, congress has directed its consider credible information obtained by nongovernmental organizations, monitored violations of human rights.
▶ 0:39:46Mr. Keith: To that end, we partner with other ngo's to make recommendations to governments regarding specific perpetrators who meet the criteria for sanctions. We have public resources that analyze and explain what these sanctions are and how they are being used and how they work.
▶ 0:40:04Mr. Keith: Legislative oversight is incredibly important to make sure the tools are used effectively and credibly come and we urge the committee's to keep up the oversight in the new congress and prioritize hearings directly from human rights different there's -- human rights defenders on the front line, including women and other marginalized groups whose voices are often overlooked. One key question for oversight is what impact these sanctions have.
▶ 0:40:27Mr. Keith: That always depends on the context and the way in which they are used, but civil society organizations have remained interested in this full for eight years, because they have a variety of positive impact during both the biden and trump administrations. Among other things, U.S.
▶ 0:40:44Mr. Keith: Sanctions under global magnitsky have helped keep a spotlight on political prisoner vladimir while he was in russian custody and build a consensus that let us to securing his relief, abruptly and stop the paramilitary force in bangladesh , force the removal of a chinese fishing company involving forced labor from the stock exchange. Spread the investigation and prosecution of a powerful official allegedly engaged in corruption in latvia.
▶ 0:41:11Mr. Keith: Health champion in ukraine -- health champion in ukraine -- helped to champion in ukraine. It's never a magic wand, and the magnitsky sanctions program is not bias of a strategy that promotes human rights. Other factors matter at least as much, including whether the government is providing security assistance from an abusive partner or turning a blind eye to corruption because of its competing diplomatic actions.
▶ 0:41:42Mr. Keith: Human rights monitors ha human rights monitors h -- the biden administration has taken several welcome steps, including addressing certain cases of forced labor and sex trafficking, the arbitrary detention of political abusers, and abuses based on gender.
▶ 0:41:59Mr. Keith: At the same time, the number of sanctions fell significantly by some measures in 2023 and 2023, in turn skewer interested in which magnitsky sanctions were responded to from regulations from civil society. The by demonstration has also continued to practice of overlooking the abuses and corruption by several major security partners, which makes the U.S. less credible in the cases where it doesn't speak out. This is administration has also made extensive use of some of the more opaque U.S.
▶ 0:42:25Mr. Keith: Visa ban programs in response to you and transnational repression. Because those programs cannot be used to name names, they are usually less impactful than magnitsky sanctions and harder for the congress or public to monitor. In one prominent case, the administration has had to be considering suspending sanctions on a business the chairman measure sanctioned in 2017 for corruption in the democratic republic of congo.
▶ 0:42:53Mr. Keith: This does not appear to be a condition on any of the steps of accountability the global magnitsky act set out in requirements for release. It is corrosive not just to abuse but global prosperity. Global sanctions to better protect those interests if the united states use them with greater consistency, with congress and civil society. Human rights first welcomes discussion on the topic. Thank you for the opportunity to testify. I look forward to your questions.
▶ 0:43:22Chair Cardin: Thank you very much. Mr. browder?
▶ 0:43:30Mr. Browder: Chairman carmen, making of her wrist, members of the committee, I particularly honored to be here today. This is a very special day for me. It is senator cardin's delegate ory appearance before this committee, and this is a journey that, at least in the relationship to magnitsky that started 14 years ago, I came come after the murder of sergei
▶ 0:44:02Mr. Browder: Magnitsky, and, facing a situation where there was a total cover up in russia, I said we have to get justice outside of russia. How do we get justice outside of russia? And I travel, without much experience as an advocate, around the world, talking to different politicians and government officials, and I got pretty much no answer from anybody. There was nothing anyone thought I could do.
▶ 0:44:35Mr. Browder: And 14 years ago, I came here to washington. I had a meeting with senator cardin, and I told him the story of what happens to sergei magnitsky, and instead of the polite concern and brushoff that I'd gotten everywhere else, he said, "we are going to do something about it," and he created and originally sponsored the sergei magnitsky rule of law accountability act.
▶ 0:45:04Mr. Browder: And I'm proud that there are four members of this committee that were cosponsors, senator risch, senator shaheen, senator rubio, and senator coons, who all sit on this committee that cosponsored that piece of legislation.
▶ 0:45:17Mr. Browder: Originally that legislation was just for sergei magnitsky, just for his killers and the people who covered up his murder, but when that piece of legislation was put onto the congressional record, other victims from russia came forward, and they said, you have hit the achilles' heel of the putin regime.
▶ 0:45:41Mr. Browder: Can you please sanctioned the people who killed my mother, my brother, sister, my father? And after a number of these people came forward to it with senator cardin and his cosponsors said, why don't we widen this piece of legislation out so that it includes all human rights abusers in russia? So they did.
▶ 0:46:04Mr. Browder: And the legislation went forward, and it passed the senate 92-fork of it passed the house of representatives with 89% committed to gain federal law in 2012 -- 92-4, it passed the house of representatives with 89%, and again with 89%, and ag it became federal law in 2012. President putin lost his mind.
▶ 0:46:31Mr. Browder: He went after me with death threats, kidnapping threats, interpol notices, extradition requests come etc. But it did not have the desired effect. Instead, senator cardin and his cosponsors and I also dwell, if putin is so mad about this -- and I all said, well, if putin is so mad about this, probably other dictators would not like it as well pick that is the genesis of the global magnitsky act in 2016. This set off a chain reaction.
▶ 0:47:02Mr. Browder: Canada passed a global magnitsky act unanimously in 2017. U.k. In 2018 come the european union in 2020, australia in 2021. In the meantime, there was iceland, norway, kosovo, montenegro, the channel islands, etc. There are now 35 countries with magnitsky acts around the world, and it would not be an understatement to say that this is probably one of the most significant pieces of human rights legislation that has ever been passed.
▶ 0:47:33Mr. Browder: Now, there are some things that need to -- that we need to do going forward. The magnitsky act applies to certain terrible individuals, but we have seen, and I have seen with my own eyes, that they know it is coming, they passed off all the assets to their family members, so we need to consider how we deal with that. We've also seen all sorts of enablers, bankers, trust companies, etc., helping them hide their assets. We need to deal with the enablers.
▶ 0:48:04Mr. Browder: As senator cardin mentioned in his introduction, we have a crazy situation where we have all these countries with magnitsky acts, and they are not coordinating, they are not harmonizing. There is no reason why someone should be sanctioned in america and not in europe and not in the u.k. And governments need to be pushed to coordinate. I should also point out one very glaring example, not a U.S. example, but the european union has a magnitsky act that only applies to human rights abusers and does not apply to corruption.
▶ 0:48:35Mr. Browder: And that makes it all very difficult, and the people who are on the magnitsky list here in the U.S. and u.k. Come etc., can still travel to europe without any problems. Finally and perhaps most importantly, and I really want to stress this, we talked about freezing the assets when we did the magnitsky act, but why not seas those assets and give those assets -- seize those assets
▶ 0:49:06Mr. Browder: And give those assets to the victims? This has been done in canada. Canada is the first country to do this. I think that should be the next leg of the magnitsky sanctions legislation here in the U.S. thank you very much.
▶ 0:49:18Chair Cardin: Well, thank you both for your testimony. We will have five-minute rounds. When we did the first sergei magnitsky sanction, it was an easy list for us to put together.
▶ 0:49:34Chair Cardin: The outside groups had an invite -- had identified those responsible for sergei magnitsky's death, a list that was used for the sanctions opposed -- impose for those responsible for his death. But as senator risch points out, now there is a disagreement as to whether an individual should be sanctioned or not, and there is an executive process that we have to go through.
▶ 0:50:04Chair Cardin: For these, it is kind of easy, because that is a privilege. You can suspend it is that without having to worry about someone's assets being frozen or taken. So the state department can make those decisions rather quickly. The asset issues go to treasury, which takes a little bit longer for us to be able to deal with.
▶ 0:50:29Chair Cardin: So I guess my first question is, is there a way that we can streamline the process and increase the legislative impact on how these decisions are made and the times that these decisions are made? Because I agree with senator risch. I grow frustrated that it has taken too long to get through the bureaucracy to impose sanctions when we have to act quickly. Is there a way that we can act more efficiently with these sanctions?
▶ 0:50:59Chair Cardin: And I agree with you, bill browder, that we found, in regards to russian frozen assets, that we can seize those assets, and we want to use them, the damage they caused to ukraine. Isn't there a way that we can seize these assets and use them to try to help compensate for the damages that have been caused by the abusers? Either one of you.
▶ 0:51:28Mr. Keith: Thanks for the questions, senator. I think on the question of timeliness, in terms of the process in which the executive branch caps on sanctions, regulations, makes these decisions, I think there's a lot of factors that come into play, and I think sometimes the slowness is down to the minimum degree of rigor that these decisions have to be made on the basis of evidence, they have to hold up in court.
▶ 0:51:57Mr. Keith: So I think there is a minimum level of rigor that cannot be gotten around and that should not be gotten around. Where I think the opportunities are I think come into play partly in terms of capacity and process. A major opportunity for congressional oversight is to ask questions and force the executive branch to share more information about its procedures.
▶ 0:52:25Mr. Keith: I think one bureaucratic issue has been whether, you know, when the sanctions coordinator, the state department sanctions coordinator, when that position is actually filled, is it empowered to actually help push along the decision?
▶ 0:52:46Mr. Keith: I think a lot of the limits come from internal state department and interagency deliberation that are not refereed and brought to conclusion, whether up or down, quickly or not. I think that is one opportunity. There is a question of seizing assets, I would point as one example, again, the example the chairman manchin about the former dictator in gambia, yes former dictator in gambia, y
▶ 0:53:17Mr. Keith: Yasef, who was one of the first to be sanctioned, among assets frozen, some of the frozen property was later forfeited under a civil forfeiture proceedings, and we think that can be a model for moving from freezing to seizing. From our perspective, it is crossing beyond that line, something that should require judicial oversight and executive action, in this case treasury.
▶ 0:53:49Chair Cardin: Mr. browder: Mr. browder?
▶ 0:53:54Mr. Browder: --
▶ 0:53:54Chair Cardin: Mr. browder?
▶ 0:53:56Mr. Browder: This committee tasked to the committee and went through the rico act, which focuses on state assets, in particular russian state assets, issues that can be confiscated. We do not have the same legislation for private assets, and I think it is a legislative priority, which -- by the way, what happens to the frozen assets? They don't get unfrozen. They just sit there forever.
▶ 0:54:28Mr. Browder: So why should they be -- we never thought that through. We wanted to make sure the bad guys could not enjoy their ill-gotten gains, but we never thought about what should happen to that money. And I think that this is the evolution of the magnitsky act is to have a piece of legislation that says if a person who is found to be liable for gross human rights abuse or corruption, the assets get frozen, and after some period of time, or they can challenge it if they want to, they get confiscated.
▶ 0:54:56Mr. Browder: That should be, like the repo act, and other legislative priority.
▶ 0:55:00Chair Cardin: I think one of the challenges we have, there really is a resentment by the executive branch of congress trying to dictate how they conduct their policy. Senator risch is correct and many of the cases he cites in regards to the biden administration, and I can cite an equal number in regard to the trump administration that I was satisfied with in the response, and it is not really president biden or trump that are making the decisions, it is the
▶ 0:55:30Chair Cardin: Bureaucracy's in the state department and treasury that go to this process that is hard for us to unravel, and to explain the intent that we want them to carry out. And they take a long time to carry out these decisions. We have to look at ways that we can get it done quickly, regardless of whether democrats or republicans are in the white house, because I think there is a general agreement to lever is president and congress that we will have these disagreements.
▶ 0:56:02Chair Cardin: And I apologize, I should have introduced you as sir william browder, and I apologize for the slight introduction. Senator risch.
▶ 0:56:14Sen. Risch: Thank, Mr. chairman. One thing in this discussion so far that has gotten us to the point of the Mr. browder, you used the word evolution. I think we are at the beginning of this thing.
▶ 0:56:33Sen. Risch: There has been the problems raised with how we actually get this done, and as has been noted, this is not a partisan issue as it is a first branch versus second branch issue. When I did repo, which you referred to, my biggest enemy was not democrats, my biggest enemy was the administration, the treasury department. And it was a huge fight.
▶ 0:57:10Sen. Risch: For whatever reason, the second branch of government is reluctant to anger other countries or look at the wrath of other countries. And that is wrong. You mentioned death threats, all of us on the blacklist. That is how they respond to these things. It is personal for them. And, look, we really need to do better.
▶ 0:57:40Sen. Risch: You mentioned the fact that this is not a magic wand. It actually can be a magic wand. First of all, at the very beginning of it, it always causes tremendous reflection on the people that it's put upon, but their reflection is not, gee, did I do something bad? The reflection is, how do I get around these sanctions?
▶ 0:58:07Sen. Risch: And that is a problem because, as you've probably seen some of the sanctions I've put in place, they get pretty good at getting around the sanctions. Mr. browder made reference to transfer of assets. That is actually just the beginning.
▶ 0:58:25Sen. Risch: One of the best examples I can think of is the trump administration laid pretty tough sanctions on iran, and we ratcheted them down to 20,000 barrels a day that they were able to export. They are now up to a couple million barrels a day. Why? Simply because time has gone on, and we have not pursued the sanctions as aggressively as we should.
▶ 0:58:51Sen. Risch: So is so there's a lot of things we could do better on this, and I think we need to continue to pursue it. The issue on the repo act, you will be interested to hear that I had a whole lot better cooperation from the --well, at the end of the day, from my european friends than I did from the administration here. The first argument I had was with the germans. Scholz was really opposed to it.
▶ 0:59:23Sen. Risch: We went round and round on it. Fortunately, the belgians came up with some really novel ideas about how we do this, and once they got on board, then most of the other europeans have gotten on board. So we are going to continue to pursue that. But I think probably one of the most important things to come out of this hearing is that all of this needs more work. You can't just put these sanctions on essay there we are, we are all done, it is good. We are not all done.
▶ 0:59:53Sen. Risch: The enforcement of those sanctions, the pursuit of those sanctions are incredibly important, and I don't think we are doing nearly as good a job pursuing as we are putting them on. We'll pat ourselves on the back once we get those on, but then how that unravels, how they are pursued is a different thought. Mr.
▶ 1:00:17Sen. Risch: Browder, your thoughts on that, on the pursuit, on continuing the pursuit of the sanctions.
▶ 1:00:23Mr. Browder: Well, I think it is a come as you said, it is sort of surprising where the objection is to this whole thing. As you say, it is not a partisan issue, it is a legislative branch versus executive branch issue. The executive branch just does not like to do stuff, because you do stuff, and you can -- people can be fired.
▶ 1:00:53Mr. Browder: If you don't do stuff, it is hard to be fired. [laughter] the beauty of the constitution of the united states is that the legislative branch of the coequal branch of government to the executive branch, and you can actually do stuff. And that was the beauty of the magnitsky act. There was a big objection. President obama was doing a reset at the time.
▶ 1:01:21Mr. Browder: He did not want to rock the apple card with the russians, so he did everything possible. But how does he respond when it is 92-4 in the senate? That is the beauty of the constitution and the beauty of this committee is there's a lot of stuff that they don't want to do that you can get them to do by legislating. And so, you know, we are coming to the end of this senate.
▶ 1:01:48Mr. Browder: There's another senate coming up, and I look forward to working with you and senator shaheen and senator kaine and everybody else here to come up with new legislation to hold the executive branch's feet to the fire.
▶ 1:02:00Sen. Risch: I agree with that. In one of the others we need to turn the screw on the russians, again, we put the sanctions and place them and it worked like a magic wand, briefly, and they have found everyone around, the banking sector has been awful. At least the georgians, they are soft on it, so all this stuff that is not supposed to go to russia is coming through georgia. We know that. There's a lot of leaks in the system.
▶ 1:02:30Sen. Risch: And one of the worst ones as the banking system. I don't know why treasury is so -- they wring their hands about upsetting the internationals' change of currency and what have you. There's a lot to do. They push back. My time is way up. Thank, Mr. chairman.
▶ 1:02:45Chair Cardin: Thank you. Senator shaheen.
▶ 1:02:48Sen. Shaheen: Thank, Mr. chairman. Thank you to Mr. keith and Mr. browder for being here today. Before I get to my questions, I want to take this opportunity to thank chairman cornyn for his -- chairman cardin for his service for this committee, particularly his service and leadership on human rights.
▶ 1:03:10Sen. Shaheen: Roughly 10 years ago, as everyone discussed, you overcame the odds, including from our own democratic administration, president obama, to pass the magnitsky act, and as you said, it is now the global standard of legislation to support the work of human rights defenders, and the whole perpetrators of human rights violations and abuses to account, and through your leadership of both this committee and the helsinki commission, human rights defenders have felt seen and
▶ 1:03:42Sen. Shaheen: Empowered and supported. So thank you very much for that. Although you are going to be leaving us at the end of the year, I can tell you that those of us on this committee remain committed to advancing that legacy. Now, both you and senator risch has mentioned our call with the president from georgia that we have this morning.
▶ 1:04:12Sen. Shaheen: As you know, the situation there is getting increasingly dire. We had a long-standing commitment to the georgian people.
▶ 1:04:24Sen. Shaheen: We are all watching with great concern the political deterioration we've seen, the thousands of people who have been in the street for the last several days, the decision to suspend e.u. Succession talks. I wanted to ask both of you, and you mentioned this, Mr. keith, as you did, Mr.
▶ 1:04:49Sen. Shaheen: Browder, the impact of corruption in society and can you talk about how this would have played a role in fueling the crisis in georgia?
▶ 1:05:09Mr. Browder: You hit the nail on the head, which is why corruption is such a crucial issue. So how does it work? Let's just take georgia, and I'm going to name some names here. You have a man named iban svilli, a man of georgian nationality who is a billionaire.
▶ 1:05:41Mr. Browder: Where did he make his money -- russia. How did he make his money in russia? Through gas and other state owned companies, which from my experience, those countries are highly corrupt, so he's made a few billion dollars. Goes back to georgia. How did the russians control him? They say you've made your money in a way that is potentially dubious.
▶ 1:06:11Mr. Browder: We can take it all away from you. We can open up criminal cases against you. Or we can do none of that if you help us, so what did he do? He helped them, and he has been actively helping them ever since. And I think it would be fair to say that the current illegitimate georgian government is a russian puppet government, and I think it would be fair to say that Mr.
▶ 1:06:40Mr. Browder: Ivanishvili plays a very active role in this administration. That's one sample of how corruption works. The other example is these people who are corrupt, who are in power, they don't ever want to have the next government investigate them, so what do they do? They don't give up power, and they do it through stuffing ballot boxes, cheating in elections, etc.
▶ 1:07:09Mr. Browder: It is all completely interlinked , and that is why corruption is so important.
▶ 1:07:14Sen. Shaheen: Mr. keith?
▶ 1:07:16Mr. Keith: I don't have much to add. One of the thing that is powerful but about having corruption in the global magnitsky act toolkit is corruption charges can land with a different or sometimes more powerful political force than charges of human rights abuse, so I think it is important you be ready to use both halves of the toolkit.
▶ 1:07:40Mr. Keith: I think the magnitsky sanctions that the treasury department imposed in september on senior georgia anterior in ministry officials were very well received in georgia by human rights defenders, by professors who were being abused by these security forces, but it is clearly an opportunity to use both sets of the toolkit and see how they resonate.
▶ 1:08:00Sen. Shaheen: Well, thank you both very much. I'm out of time, but I think it is important for us to send a message that there is a bipartisan consensus in the senate and in congress on this issue, with respect to georgia, and that we are not going to tolerate, without taking action, the gross abuse of human rights that's going on in the country. I hope the prime minister and the ruling party gets that message. Thank you both.
▶ 1:08:29Chair Cardin: Thank you, senator shaheen. Senator helmy has yielded to senator kaine.
▶ 1:08:38Sen. Kaine: Thank you both for being here, and I want to echo comments said by my colleagues. Senator cardin will be celebrating years ineffective office, from the maryland general assembly to the house of representatives, united states senate.
▶ 1:08:57Sen. Kaine: I'm pretty confident that is not going to be a record that anybody is going to match, even with genetic engineering and lengthening lifespan, the difficulty of being in politics, even for a few years, will make 58 years seem like a joe dimaggio. It will not be matched. But it has been a real honor to be on this committee since january 2013 and serve together with a man. We are really going to miss you.
▶ 1:09:28Sen. Kaine: The global magnitsky laws is one of many things we can talk about in terms of your legacy. Here's what I want to ask both of you about sanctions generally. The magnitsky laws have been used in wonderful ways, have recently global magnitsky act been used to sanction bad behavior in guiana with respect to activities in the gold-mining sectors, to train cowards away that are the people's money, and they've also been used to
▶ 1:09:59Sen. Kaine: Threaten an attempted coup to stop the incoming government of the president and guatemala, so there have been uses in the western hemisphere. I'm interested in aspects, one is international coordination. It is great when the U.S. asked either through global magnitsky or other sanctions, mechanisms to the bow sanctions on bad behavior, and the primary goal is not to punish, the primary goal is to change behavior.
▶ 1:10:30Sen. Kaine: Sometimes he punish to change behavior. But these sanctions are much more effective if they are not just U.S. sanctions but are others. I sometimes whether whether we have -- wonder whether we have the right strategy, to coordinate different sanctions, even sanctions within the U.S. but particularly the coordination of our own sanctions with those of our allies.
▶ 1:10:51Sen. Kaine: If you have advice for us in terms of how we might be able to more effectively coordinate sanctions with other democracies that care about human rights, that care about human corruption , what advice would that be?
▶ 1:11:03Mr. Keith: It's a really important topic, and I appreciate the chance to talk about it. I think everyone shares the opinion that these tools are more effective, more credible, more legitimate, all sorts of good things when they are used together and the U.S. is working with other jurisdictions that have magnitsky sanctions.
▶ 1:11:24Mr. Keith: We have seen from time to time a joint rule out, where jurisdictions match each other over time, and there is a lot of power, in the case of vladimir, despite being british and being a U.S.
▶ 1:11:42Mr. Keith: Resident, and eventually an honorary canadian citizen, all five of the major magnitsky jurisdictions eventually imposed sanctions against countries involved in his arbitrary detention. That speaks volume and I think in the end contributed to vladimir's successful release. That is not usually what we see.
▶ 1:12:10Mr. Keith: We are going to put out a report in the coming weeks that updates our analysis about jurisdictions and using magnitsky sanctions. The U.S. is one of the most active. We have seen about one-third of U.S. magnitsky sanctions mass by at least one other major jurisdictions, so I, you, australia, and the european union.
▶ 1:12:39Mr. Keith: The sanctions being mash in the european union is a real weak point. In terms of what can be done to increase coordination and improve matching, I think a lot of the interchange between the governments that have these tools is surprisingly nascent. It is happening, but I think this is an opportunity for congressional oversight and encouragement, to press the state department and treasury to do more with their counterparts, to explain what their strategies are for increasing matching over time.
▶ 1:13:06Mr. Keith: I think there are also opportunities for cross legislative coordination. The british parliamentary created or resume sort of caucus equivalents specifically focused on magnitsky sanctions and victim reparations, so I think there are opportunities for the different legislatures to press their counterparts on, to do more to match where that has not yet happened.
▶ 1:13:31Sen. Kaine: My time has expired, and I don't that is really for the record, I think we need to do further inquiry and research. My analysis of sanctions in the 12 years I've been here is that we have been better at using sanctions to impose pain and not so good at sanctions to change behavior.
▶ 1:13:58Sen. Kaine: Ultimately the reason for sanctions should be to change behavior and there are a number of instances where sanctions have changed behavior but there are also instances of sanctions that have imposed pain without changing behavior. Trying to extract lessons from the uses of sanctions to change behavior and trying to make future decisions about sanctions to follow that path is something I am committed to, going forward. With that I will hand it back.
▶ 1:14:23Chair Cardin: The more you coordinate the sanction regimes and the more you enforce them, the better chance you have to change behavior. Senator helmy?
▶ 1:14:34Sen. Helmy: I started my last hearing by thanking the chair and the membership of this committee for allowing me to serve on this committee during my interim appointment. Thank you. I would also echo my colleagues and witnesses in thanking the chairman for his courage and boldness on this specific issue.
▶ 1:14:55Sen. Helmy: A point of personal privilege, as an individual whose family comes from an area of the world where literally the work of ben cardin has been essential to life, health, prosperity of families, I want to thank you and your team for your leadership for so many years. Mr. keith, I'm going to start with you.
▶ 1:15:17Sen. Helmy: You were kind to note the career staffer in preparation for this and I want to allow a moment for you to expand on something that I had read. At the same time, the number of sanctions imposed by global magnitsky fell by some measure in 2023. Magnitsky sanctions has a basis in recommendation, I would like you to expand on that.
▶ 1:15:45Sen. Helmy: The , the biden administration -- by several U.S. security partners. Could you expand on that and how that lack of credibility manifests itself?
▶ 1:15:57Mr. Keith: To the first question about the count on the civil society input, I think stepping back a bit to the numbers game, we have seen a steady average across the two administrations who have used this tool, in terms of the number of primary sanctions imposed per year, but we have seen peaks and valleys during that time as well.
▶ 1:16:29Mr. Keith: Congress responded in part by legislating an appropriations boost specifically targeted at treasury and state to increase capacity to investigate cases and put together evidence year repackages. -- evidentiary packages.
▶ 1:16:52Mr. Keith: This is not purely a numbers game, we are not just looking for quantity as opposed to quality, but if there is less action happening during the program, it follows from that that the program is going to be less responsive to input from congress, less responsive to input from civil society groups who have documented abuse and corruption where sanctions might be impactful. I think that is what we are trying to put a spotlight on.
▶ 1:17:21Mr. Keith: The second half of this year has been more productive in the global magnitsky program. I think 2024 is looking likely to have more targets acted on than in the two previous years. We think that is encouraging. To the point about security partners, I think I would start with the report we published in 2022 about global magnitsky and security partners.
▶ 1:17:48Mr. Keith: It focused on a number of security partners engaged in serious abuse or corruption on a large scale. They couple examples we concluded -- we talked about included egypt, the philippines where extrajudicial killings were taking place. These were very serious abuses that we found to be conspicuous in their absence from the list. They are happening in context where the U.S. has influence as a friend.
▶ 1:18:18Mr. Keith: We would be the first to say that sanctions are not always the right tool, but we did struggle to find signs of other serious U.S. pressures being applied to change these behaviors and in this context, sanctioned -- targeted sanctions are the ideal tool, singling out emblem on it cases, testing partners ability to hold anyone to account. We have seen this approach play out without collapsing bilateral relationships.
▶ 1:18:50Mr. Keith: I think our analysis is that the U.S. can have an impact and should work to have an impact focusing on arbitrary detention in russia, serious human rights abuses in changing. Using magnitsky effectively also means using U.S. influence where it is the strongest and where U.S. response ability is greatest -- responsibility is greatest.
▶ 1:19:17Mr. Keith: We are not seeking consistency for its own sake, we are seeking it because the U.S. action can save lives in these contexts and in the long run put these relationships on stronger footing.
▶ 1:19:27Sen. Helmy: Thank you Mr. keith. Mr. browder, I start by thanking you for your courage and selfless leadership on this issue. The ranking member the term evolution. Your testimony, you start off talking about people using family members to bypass illicit wealth and you say the real problem is the enablers, law firms, etc. Can you explain how that manifests itself?
▶ 1:20:00Mr. Browder: Just to give an example, one of the people who was central to the whole magnitsky case was an organized criminal, well known as being one of the masterminds of this crime that affected -- fatally. He knew he was going to be sanctioned eventually so he passed off his assets to his wife and two friends, trustees.
▶ 1:20:31Mr. Browder: Since we knew that and had evidence, we took it to the U.S. treasury department, and they weren't interested. Why were they not? I think it was purely a resource priority issue. They want to go after the big fish, not necessarily the little fish, and I think that needs to change not just in this case but in all of these cases. You also have bankers involved in this stuff. Recently, today, in the u.k.
▶ 1:20:58Mr. Browder: The national crime agency found a group of 70 people involved in helping people like russia today who were sanctioned and other people, bypassing sanctions with cryptocurrency. A lot of work needs to be done on that area as well. I don't want to go to long. -- too long.
▶ 1:21:19Sen. Helmy: I promise that if the last time I will go over my time.
▶ 1:21:23Chair Cardin: You still have a few minutes left, so you are over many hearings. Senator van hollen.
▶ 1:21:31Sen. Van Hollen: Thank you Mr. chairman. I say Mr. chairman with great pride not just as a member of the foreign relations committee, but his jr. Senator from the state of maryland. We are so proud of everything ben cardin does. In maryland, we call him our friend ben.
▶ 1:21:54Sen. Van Hollen: He has made such an important difference in so many areas, including this area of human rights and foreign affairs and I think it is very fitting we are having this hearing today. Thank you Mr. chairman for all the work you did on the magnitsky accountability act and later the global magnitsky act. Mr.
▶ 1:22:16Sen. Van Hollen: Browder, it's been a while since we saw each other but thank you for everyone -- everything you have done as part of this effort and being part of honoring ben cardin with the human rights defender lifetime achievement award. I see senator cardin's life partner and it is great to see you here as well.
▶ 1:22:44Sen. Van Hollen: I want to follow-up on a couple of things that senator helmy spoke about, and Mr. keith, I applaud you and human rights first on the report that you did with respect to global magnitsky . Essentially, your 2022 report entitled with friends like these .
▶ 1:23:08Sen. Van Hollen: You made a comment in response to senator helmy that our goal of applying these sanctions is to achieve certain results and make human rights abuses less prevalent, but you did mention consistency and you said we don't do this for consistency's sake and I agree with that, but if we are going to be credible about applying sanctions in cases where there have been human rights abuses, isn't it
▶ 1:23:41Sen. Van Hollen: Important to be consistent? If we are going to carry this as a value on the international stage that the united states stands up for human rights and certain values in the rule of law, isn't it important that we be willing to apply these sanctions to accomplish our goals with countries that are our partners and not only our adversaries?
▶ 1:24:07Mr. Keith: Absolutely, I agree. The impact of designation against a U.S. adversary is strengthened to the extent the people perceive the tool is being used consistently, based on merit, rather than being seen through a lens of confronting adversaries.
▶ 1:24:31Mr. Keith: We think it is incredibly important, and I think part of our case is that question of influence, some of the most impactful cases, the use of global magnitsky sections we have seen have been in the context of friendly relations, where the government is pressured to take seriously the concerns presented by these sanctions.
▶ 1:24:55Mr. Keith: We have seen it across a range, even treaty allies, governments that had been turning a blind eye to abuse or corruption in their jurisdiction, and maybe the domestic politics wasn't quite right and they could not muster the political will to confront the corrupt official or abuser, until the U.S.
▶ 1:25:15Mr. Keith: Or ideally multilateral sanctions come along and prompted them belatedly to suspend someone from office or investigate someone who is known for being corrupt, but didn't face any consequences for it. We see that kind of response far more often in the context of sanctions addressing corruption and abuse in the context of friendly relations and frankly we don't think this presents a false choice or requires a false equivalence.
▶ 1:25:44Mr. Keith: The global magnitsky program is uniquely suited for filling gaps between the country sanctions programs the U.S. has which focus on adversaries. We and our partners advocate but he met leeper under those programs -- vahe mentally advocate -- the he advocate -- thevehemently advocate for those programs.
▶ 1:26:15Sen. Van Hollen: I agree and if we don't apply the standards in a uniform way, our adversaries like china and russia point out that we conveniently use human rights and these instruments only as a cudgel against our adversaries and that we don't mean them. I think they've been very effective in parts of the world, including the global south and pointing out that perceived hypocrisy.
▶ 1:26:45Sen. Van Hollen: Mr. chairman, I would like to ask you, I saw the list of countries you mentioned. I did not see azerbaijan on that list. It has been widely documented that since september 2023, with the military assault, that they have engaged in what I think everyone would agree are gross violations of human rights.
▶ 1:27:10Sen. Van Hollen: Is that a case where you think it would be fruitful and productive to pursue a global magnitsky act sanctions?
▶ 1:27:19Mr. Keith: Yes. We didn't have a case study on them in that particular report and we absolutely could have. We know the U.S. can impose human rights or corruption related sanctions against azerbaijan. They did a couple months ago, targeting an official in the interior ministry for what I believe was custodial torture.
▶ 1:27:43Mr. Keith: In the specific context of the assault, I think some acts in the context of armed conflict, the administration might not be able to use the global magnitsky human rights framework to address it but things that fall outside of the context including extrajudicial killing of a prisoner, torture or sexual violence, any of that conduct would meet the criteria and would absolutely be appropriate use of the tool.
▶ 1:28:14Sen. Van Hollen: In closing, I know senator risch mentioned a letter that you wrote to the administration regarding sanctioning the leader of the rsf.
▶ 1:28:29Sen. Van Hollen: I wish the biden administration had pursued that but I want to take this opportunity to raise the point that it's been pretty well established that despite denials, one of our security partners, the uae has been very involved in arming the rs f which in turn has been committing atrocities, and that the united states has found them, the rsf guilty of ethnic
▶ 1:29:00Sen. Van Hollen: Cleansing. The biden administration did notice another arm sale and it is my view that we the united states senate should hold that up until we get assurances from the uae via the president of the united states that they are no longer going to be arming the rsf and allowing various weapons to be used for atrocities.
▶ 1:29:32Sen. Van Hollen: I will be speaking later on the floor on a joint resolution of disapproval that I filed. My goal is not to have a vote on it. My goal would be to get the president to provide us, the senate with assurances, credible assurances the uae is no longer doing this but so long as they are, it seems to me we have a responsibility to make a statement. Accu for the additional time -- thank you for the additional time.
▶ 1:29:57Chair Cardin: The challenges in sudan are just horrible and reported to be the worst human to terry and crisis in the world today and it is very disappointing when we have countries that we have strong strategic partnerships with doing things that we think are wrong, arming the conflict. We share that concern.
▶ 1:30:23Chair Cardin: I'm not sure what the most effective path is to carry out, movement towards ending the violence in that region and giving humanitarian assistance. I was encouraged that the united nations security council is going to take steps regarding sudan, but I applaud my colleague for his commitment to the sudanese, and the crisis they are facing today. Thank you.
▶ 1:30:55Chair Cardin: There is a common thread that goes through every one of the U.S. initiatives for advancing major human rights legislation. That common thread is, it is resisted by the executive branch. The other common thread, once we get it done, they brag about it and have major events showcasing what they've done under the laws involved.
▶ 1:31:23Chair Cardin: That was true with the foreign corruption practice act in 1977, where they complained that would hurt american businesses globally. It was true with the original human rights report act in 1978, when they said it would make it more difficult for them to conduct foreign policy. It was true with the religious freedom report act of 1999, where they said it would put an undue burden on our missions.
▶ 1:31:51Chair Cardin: It was true with the trafficking and persons report when they said we will have to impose trade sanctions against countries we have to deal with and it was certainly true with both of the magnitsky acts and combating global corruption which we just recently passed, only because of arm-twisting with the secretary of state. The point is this. You have both raised very valid points. Senator risch's comments.
▶ 1:32:19Chair Cardin: It is incumbent upon the congress to take a look at why sanctions aren't more effective in bringing about change in behavior, which senator kaine was talking about. It is true that our magnitsky sanctions globally, are not all consistent. Corruption being -- the eu needs to correct their statute to deal with corrupt abusers.
▶ 1:32:49Chair Cardin: It is also true that there is too much leakage because of transfer to family members or enablers not being subject to sanctions. There is also a lack of coordination as to who should be targeted with sanctions. If we had more countries aimed at dealing with a particular challenge, maybe it is in sudan, maybe it is azerbaijan, whatever country it is, but we coordinate the use of individual sanctions.
▶ 1:33:19Chair Cardin: I guess my challenge to our witnesses is to help take a look at our laws and see how we can as legislators be more directive to the executive branch to do a better job in promoting unity and coordination among the democratic countries of the world so that our sanctions are more effective in carrying out a change in behavior because senator kaine is right.
▶ 1:33:49Chair Cardin: We don't impose sanctions for punitive regent -- reasons. We impose sanctions to change behavior. We look forward to the day where we can remove sanctions or don't need sanctions because countries have responded to the global responsibilities of protecting the rights of their citizens. I guess my final comment on this is I would hope Mr.
▶ 1:34:11Chair Cardin: Chairman, that the committee would take a look at how we can be more effective because sanctions are very popular today. It certainly beats sending soldiers into harm's way, but we also know that there is so much evasion of sanctions. We saw that in regards to russia.
▶ 1:34:36Chair Cardin: We heard from president zelenskyy about how he is disappointed russia has found ways to use products to overcome a lot of the challenges and secondary sanction issues with regards to iran. There are many areas where we know they are avoiding sanctions and with individual sanctions, it should be more difficult, to make sure there is no evasion. We can deal with enablers and family members.
▶ 1:35:05Chair Cardin: I think there is a better opportunity for us to make these sanctions really effective and serve william, your cup -- and sir william, your comment about putin going ballistic about this is telling. They work. Oligarchs don't want to be on this list. There is one other positive aspect about this. It has been a cottage industry in the united states to get off of the magnitsky sanctions. We know it means a lot.
▶ 1:35:37Chair Cardin: I think it can be even more effective. Senator risch, final comments?
▶ 1:35:41Ranking Member Risch: Thank you Mr. chairman. This has been a productive hearing. In underscoring what is a really good tool that we have, but the tool needs sharpening, and I think it is incumbent upon us to do that and I commit to you that we will continue to pursue that.
▶ 1:36:02Chair Cardin: Thank you. Let me think both of our witnesses and with that, the hearing will stand adjourned.