▶ 0:22:42>> and down good morning, everybody, welcome back for a second the hearings on miss bondi's nomination for attorney general. As I said yesterday, I want everyone to be able to watch the hearing without obstruction.
▶ 0:23:00If people stand up and block the view of others behind them or if they speak out of turn, it is not fair or considerate to others, so we will move individuals as they have previously. We didn't have any of these problems yesterday. I don't want to anticipate today but I just think we ought to make everything clear.
▶ 0:23:26Before we begin with opening statements from the panel, I want to go over a couple of key items in explaining how we are going to proceed today. I will get an opening statement and give the opportunity to provide an opening statement to introduce his witnesses, then we return to our witnesses for their opening statements.
▶ 0:23:56Following those statements, we will begin with a first round of questions in which each senator from have five minutes. Yesterday we went from 9:30 until 2:00 p.m. So that every senator both democrat and republican could question miss bondi. We heard from senator scott schmidt who gave a strong endorsement.
▶ 0:24:22Their introductions described her extensive experience, outstanding qualifications and yesterday's testimony showed that miss bondi is certainly experienced and capable to serve as our nation's chief law enforcement officer at this very critical time. She is very well qualified for the position, serving 18 years as prosecutor, eight years as attorney general the state of florida.
▶ 0:24:52Florida, the third most populous state in our nation. She will enact desperately needed changes that our department has been politicized and weaponized from the partisan ends with almost 30 years of experience behind her. She has restored -- she will restore both morale and law & order to the department have the needed, in need of strong leadership.
▶ 0:25:21Her commitment to the rule of law emerged as a central theme of our discussions yesterday, and as I made clear in my opening statement, that is what I believe the department in this country desperately needs. Today the purpose is to hear from an outside panel of witnesses and we are grateful that all of you are here this morning to express your views on this nominee.
▶ 0:25:50I will go ahead and introduce the 30 witnesses before I open with ranking member durbin. First is dave ehrenberg. Until just a few days ago, Mr. ehrenberg was the elected democrat state attorney for florida's 15th judicial district. He served in that role for three terms since he was elected in 2012.
▶ 0:26:21Mr. ehrenberg also previously served in the florida state senate and as a white house fellow in both clinton and bush administrations at the treasury department. He has known miss bondi since 2010 when he ran to be the attorney general of florida, a position miss bondi obviously won.
▶ 0:26:49Notwithstanding their political differences, miss bondi appointed Mr. ehrenberg to be her drug czar to combat the opioid epidemic and through that work he came to know her very well. Second, we have Mr. nicholas cox who is florida's longest-serving statewide prosecutor.
▶ 0:27:15He's served in that role since 2011 and his capacity as statewide prosecutor. Mr. cox focuses on cases involving human trafficking, drug abuse, fraud, organized crime, gang violence, cybercrimes, and crimes against seniors.
▶ 0:27:37He also previously served as a member of the faculty at stetson university college of law where he taught advocacy, consumer law , and criminal procedure. Mr. cox has extensively experienced observing miss ponte's work as a lawyer and administrator. Miss bondi began her career as an intern in his office.
▶ 0:28:13She appointed him to his current office. Last we have a career law enforcement officer with more than 40 years experience. He has served as a sheriff of two counties in florida. When miss bondi served as attorney general he served as her director of law enforcement.
▶ 0:28:47He's very familiar with her work with state, local and federal law enforcement as well as her work to address drug abuse, fight human trafficking and victims of crime. Thanks all of you for serving. >> I want to take a moment to reflect on yesterday's session with miss bondi. They seemed to be a meeting of minds and criminal justice reform and the pressing need to protect our children online.
▶ 0:29:20Those are good things. There are still some outstanding issues from yesterday's hearing, but I'm struggling to start with a very important issue. Who won the election in 2020? Why are we still asking that question? You would think that would be over. The reason why that is still a relevant question is it gets to the heart of our democracy, the peaceful transition from one president to a new president by the will of the people without resistance and without denial.
▶ 0:29:51There is a phrase hanging chant have any significant to our witnesses? It does to me and to every american. In the year 2000, bush v. Gore there was a contest that went on into december and numerous court contests associated with it as to who actually won that election. There came a moment when al gore stood up and said that's it, it's over. I've gone to court, I could keep going to court but I don't think that is in the best interest of this country.
▶ 0:30:21I can see george w. Bush won. You didn't hear democrats saying "never say that in public, never can see that in public." we did. George w. Bush won the election because al gore decided to step at a point when bush was ahead, period. End of story. That is what a democracy is all about. One person concedes, the other person wins, we moved to the next president and ultimately the next election, but that is not the case in the year 2020.
▶ 0:30:52We still have a candidate, in this case president trump, who is in denial as to what happened in 2020, and as a consequence, some characterizing it as a big lie, whatever you want to characterize it. It really is an important question because it gets to the fundamentals of anyone seeking a position in the cabinet of this president or serving our nation. They acknowledge the peaceful transition of power in 2020 from donald trump to joe biden? The answer is yes.
▶ 0:31:22The reason is we had the certification of the electoral vote, and we went through the process we were supposed to go through with our constitution, end of story. And yet when I ask that simple question of miss bondi yesterday, she was unable to say just expressly yes. Joe biden received more votes than donald trump and was elected president in 2020. Why is that such a hard question? I don't understand.
▶ 0:31:51Why couldn't she stay plainly that is what happened? When a nominee for attorney general is afraid to state a simple fact, what does it say about the future of our democracy and the credibility of our system of justice? She not only refused to acknowledge president trump's defeat in 2020, she also said " there was a peaceful transition of power." let me repeat that. A peaceful transition of power. Have you seen the videotapes? What happened here on january 6?
▶ 0:32:22Can you imagine if the news came on and said did you hear what happened in london today, a mob stormed the houses of parliament, crashed through the door of the house of commons, took control of british parliament and we hope that the police can take control back in a matter of hours so they can continue their business. What would we say to that? In london, in england, they went through what?
▶ 0:32:49A mob storming the houses of parliament, knocking down the door? Incredible, whatever happened to that country, we thought they were leaders in the world. Now reflect for a moment on january 6, 2021 and what we went through. All of us went through individually. Being spirited out of the capitol building, taken to a safe place because of a mob. That was not a peaceful transition of power. I want to just say thank you for joining us today.
▶ 0:33:17You may have noticed, we all noticed, we are not supposed to notice, but we should, men and women in uniform who will protect us in this chamber and throughout these buildings day in and day out. God bless them. But what they went through on january 6 is an outrage. Attacks on them, several lost their life as a consequence of what they went through, many forced into retirement, and hundreds of people were arrested for trespassing and much more serious crimes. Donald trump characterizes them as political prisoners.
▶ 0:33:49The people who attacked our policeman are characterized as political prisoners and he promises that he is going to give a pardon to all of them on the day that he is sworn into office. I ask the basic question of miss bondi as the chief law enforcement officer which she would be as attorney general, what do you think about the pardons? She wouldn't comment. She made it clear she stood behind the police, but you could make it clear by sainted donald trump this is a bad idea.
▶ 0:34:18Anyone who is guilty of violence , certainly guilty of violence should not be pardoned on the day that you are sworn in as president. So I was at least disappointed by her answer. And then this cash patel issue. I'm going to meet him next week for the first time. I've read an awful lot about him. There's an awful lot to read. He has a lot to say and he has set it and he has published it in book form. One of the things he's said is that he has an enemies list.
▶ 0:34:47Secret police agencies throughout history have enemies lists. The american fbi does not and should not. I think there are serious questions about this man, his judgment, and his political value that he would bring to office. Yesterday, miss bondi embraced him, saying this person is right for the job. I certainly don't feel that way. So there are questions raised. Having said that I want to concede two things.
▶ 0:35:15First, if I were setting out to hire an attorney, she certainly has the strongest resume and should be hired. Number two, the testimony today particularly from people of the opposite political party in florida is a testimony to the fact that she has been bipartisan and very effective as attorney general. I will concede that point. When she talks about the things she achieved, I'm impressed, I should be. But the question is when donald trump knocks on her door as attorney general, and he will.
▶ 0:35:45If you question that, ask jeff sessions, ask bill barr. He will knock on her door and ask her to do something that is going to be a challenge ethically or morally. It is just in his nature. He views the office as an office he personally controls. He doesn't. The american people and the constitution control that office and we have to resolve whether or not miss bondi is the person to be the next attorney general. Our first minority witness is lisa gilbert. A nonprofit organization with more than 500,000 members.
▶ 0:36:19The organization has extensively been investigating conflicts of interest in public corruption and missed gilbert will speak to the dangers of confirming someone with corporate interests as attorney general. Second is mary mccord, executive director of the institute for constitutional advocacy and protection. She's a visiting professor at this prestigious georgetown law center.
▶ 0:36:43Prior to these roles she served for more than 20 years for the district of columbia and also served as assistant for national security from 2016 to 2017 and principal deputy assistant attorney general from 2014 to 2016. At this point I will turn back to you. Thank you.
▶ 0:37:03>> we have this tradition of swearing people in based on how honest you are and everything like that, so please, would you raise your right hand. Do you swear or affirm that the testimony that you are about to give before this committee will be the truth, the whole truth, and nothing but the truth, so help you god? I have seen all of you say yes to that. Thank you very much.
▶ 0:37:32Now you may proceed with your statements, and we will start with Mr. ehrenberg and just come across the table that way. So please start out. >> thank you Mr. chairman, ranking member durbin, senators. In 2010 after serving eight years as a state senator in florida, I ran for florida attorney general. I faced a fellow state senator and in credit primary in one of three republican candidates in a potential general election.
▶ 0:38:01Pam bondi was one of the three candidates. This was her first run for political office and she was the only candidate in the race on either side whom I did not know. At our first forum she came up to me with a big smile and told me her younger brother who may be here today, brad, worked with me at my old law firm as a summer associate and had very complimentary things to say. That was vintage pam bondi. I potential future opponent immediately disarmed me by ignoring partisanship to reach out to me as a human being.
▶ 0:38:31She won her primary and I lost mine. I then endorsed by democratic primary and faced her in the general election and then pam won that election. Despite the fact that I was on the other set of the aisle and did not support her campaign, she called me to offer the position as her drug czar to combat the opioid epidemic that was ravaging florida and to shut down the states ubiquitous pill mills that fed the nations addiction.
▶ 0:38:58She offered me this position because she knew from the campaign that fighting the opioid epidemic had been my career priority and important part of my came plane -- campaign platform. It did not matter that I had a d after my name, she believed I with the best person for the job. I accepted the position and receive a little pushback from my side of the aisle, but nothing compared to what she received.
▶ 0:39:26One county republican chairman was so angry that he wagged a finger in front of her face to condemn her decision. He didn't argue that I was unqualified, just that she was resurrecting a democrats political career who had just lost badly in a statewide election. On that he may have had a point. I served as drug czar for two years and then got elected as a democratic state attorney for 12 years until last week. But you don't wagged a finger in her face and get away with it.
▶ 0:39:54She is kind and genuine and loves people, but she is also tough as nails. She met fire with fire, putting her own finger in the party leaders face to defend her new employee and she didn't care that I was a democrat or that she didn't know me that well at the time or that one day this could help me run for office, which it did. She didn't do it because she one day hoped I would have her back at a senate confirmation hearing. It was just the person she was and still is.
▶ 0:40:23When ag body and I began our anti-pill mill initiative, seven people a day were dying from prescription opioid overdoses and there were more pain clinics in florida than mcdonald's in florida. A year later she convinced a reluctant republican legislature to pass crucial, long-overdue reforms including a prescription drug monitoring program that dramatically reduce doctor shopping. She used her bipartisan relationships to get it done. Today, florida's pill mills are no more.
▶ 0:40:54The steady stream of cars from appalachia that constituted the oxycontin express are a distant memory and countless lives have been saved because our states days as the drug dealer for the rest of the country is a part of our past. Pam bondi and I have always had our political differences although that has never come between our friendship. I supported the presidential campaigns of barack obama, hillary clinton, joe biden and kamala harris.
▶ 0:41:21I've been outspoken on cable tv and streaming channels on a host of legal issues including with professor mccord. Including the dangers of targeting one's political enemies. I was critical of the investigation which led to questionable criminal cases and embarrassing acquittals. A prosecutor's job is to follow the evidence and the law without fear or favor. Pam bondi is a 20 year prosecutor who understands this, even if she does something as attorney general of the united states that I disagree with.
▶ 0:41:51I believe she will always remain tethered to the law. And there are some important issues where she and I are in complete agreement such as the need to stop the flow of deadly fentanyl that has become by far the largest killer within the ongoing opioid epidemic. We agree on tough punishments for those who engage in the modern-day slavery known as human trafficking, and for laws that allow victims to have low-level crimes expunged and to utilize the visa program when needed.
▶ 0:42:21We agree on the need for treatment courts, which have proven to be a better alternative to incarceration with lower recidivism rate for many nonviolent drug offenders. And we agree there should be a stronger response for the growing number of anti-semitic incidents in our country and especially on college campuses. Senators, I'm grateful for the time to speak with you today and look forward to answering any questions you may have.
▶ 0:42:47>> chair grassley, ranking member durbin, thank you for the opportunity to testify. I'm lisa gilbert, copresident a public citizen. Public citizen is a 54-year-old nonprofit organization with 500,000 members and supporters across the country. We champion the public interest in the halls of power working to ensure that our government and economy work for the people, not for wealthy special interests and corporations. On behalf of our members we stand in opposition to the nomination of pam bondi for the role of attorney general.
▶ 0:43:18The mission of the department of justice is to work on behalf of the american people, keep our country safe, protect civil rights, uphold the rule of law. Unfortunately pam bondi has numerous troubling potential comforts of interest from her time as a lobbyist which called to question her ability to hold corporate wrongdoers accountable. I'll focus my testimony on our concerns about this problem.
▶ 0:43:40Public citizen recently examined the federal lobbying disclosures and foreign agents registration act reports filed by bondi and ballard partners, or lobbying firm. Her client list is full of controversial clients, some of which stand to benefit directly from having their former lobbyist in charge of the doj. Over the last five years she represented 30 clients from large corporations and contractors to a foreign government.
▶ 0:44:04In addition during her earlier time as florida attorney general, a recent new york times review found several pieces of evidence that seem to generate heard general tendency to assist corporate allies and corporate lobbyists strong beliefs that pam bondi was exceptionally accessible to lobbyists and amenable to the agendas of their corporate clients. Bondi had a large number of domestic clients but today I will highlight just two of them.
▶ 0:44:31Geo group, the largest private prisons company and amazon, an e-commerce giant. Bondi was registered to lobby the first white -- trump white house for geo group, both doj and dhs inspectors general have been critical of prison management and they stand to profit substantially if the trump administration's new immigration detention and deportation policies result in filling empty or underutilized beds in their facilities.
▶ 0:44:57As a real proceeding for this concern, public citizen did research back in 20 which showed geo group's contract dollars rose by over 40% in the first two years of the trump term. Now to amazon, they are of course a very well-known tech company. Bondi was registered to lobby for than in 2020. In recent years they've been investigated by the doj over injury rate and workplace safety.
▶ 0:45:21Being referred to the doj by a high partisan group of lawmakers for potential criminal obstruction and had their robotaxi unit federally investigated over safety concerns. In addition, doj and the ftc recently reached a settlement with amazon regarding children rising violations via alexa, and of course, amazon also receives multibillion-dollar contracts from multiple federal agencies ranging from dod to nasa.
▶ 0:45:48Beyond these examples, auntie was registered as a foreign agent lobbying on behalf of foreign government and officials. Bondi work for both the embassy of qatar and a kuwaiti investment firm. For qatar, it was the improvement of their often criticized human rights record before the 2022 world cup for the kuwaiti investment firm. The work was an attempt to free a russian money manager arrested in kuwait on terms of embezzlement from her and her staff to the tune of tens of millions of government funds.
▶ 0:46:21To conclude, we believe a person with this deep record of controversial business and foreign government lobbying should not be considered for attorney general. A well-functioning doj needs to be tough on corporate crime and work to improve the lives of our communities. This level of corporate entitlement just speaks to exactly the wrong incentives. During the first trump term, corporate enforcement plummeted at the doj and we really fear a repeat of this pattern.
▶ 0:46:49Public citizens to that end recently created a tracker of ongoing role investigations that are at risk of being dropped or weakened or modified. The tracker includes 237 investigations which have cases against 192 distinct companies. Shockingly, nearly one third of those companies have known ties to the incoming trump administration, and as highlighted throughout my testimony, pam bondi is no exception.
▶ 0:47:15To be clear, we do not think this level of corporate alignment can be addressed simply by recusing us. Her broad representation of an lobbying registration for corporate interests is much more than a list of potential conflicts, it instead represents an overall sense of prioritization. It is a net potential conflicts that there really isn't a realistic escape from. If her nomination as attorney general proceeds, we are really concerned that she will take actions that reflect the needs of these types of entities.
▶ 0:47:47So with that, I want to thank you for giving me the opportunity to present use of public citizen and welcome any questions. >> good morning, chairman grassley, ranking member durbin, members of the committee. Thank you for allowing me to testify before you today on that -- behalf of the united states nominee pamela bondi.
▶ 0:48:14I am a 40 year career law enforcement officer who has served at all levels of law enforcement to include sheriff. It has been my distinct pleasure in knowing and working with miss bondi since 2010. As a member of for senior executive staff, I served as the director of law enforcement, victim services and criminal justice programs when she assumed the office of attorney general in 2011, and I continue to serve in those capacities
▶ 0:48:46Through her tenure as attorney general. To this day, we maintain a very close professional, personal and family relationship. I wanted to speak this morning on her commitment to the just and proper enforcement of the law. Demonstrated through her well and relationships with local, state, and federal law in smith partners throughout the united states.
▶ 0:49:10Miss bondi had well-established deep rted relationships with local, state, and federal law enforcement agencies. Upon becoming attorney general she immediately began the process of meeting all law enforcement there's throughout the state of florida to establish partnerships to ensure that our citizens and visitors to our state receive the most effective law enforcement and victim services available.
▶ 0:49:35One critical issue that she immediately took on was the emerging proliferation of deadly designer drugs, specifically those referred to as bath salts that are state had been facing prior to her being elected as attorney general.
▶ 0:49:50She called together our stakeholders to include prosecutors, law enforcement, our office of drug control, and many others to not only seek to understand this new trend in our state, but to seek immediate solutions to stop the spread of these deadly substances is taking the lives of our citizens.
▶ 0:50:08She developed a strategy and a call to action to immediately outlaw these dangerous bath salt substances, you in florida's rulemaking statutes and bipartisan support from florida's legislature, she was able to permanently ban the sale of these deadly drugs despite the continuous efforts of those who alter their formulas in order to circumvent florida law in an attempt to give multiple versions of these harmful substances on some of the shelves at some retailers.
▶ 0:50:41These actions in conjunction with our public and private partners begin to effectively address a growing trend in illegal substance abuse in our state. Miss bondi's commitment to the rule of law was also evident in her taking a lead role investigating and prosecuting crimes involving gang activities, organize retail theft, human trafficking and a host of other criminal activities.
▶ 0:51:05She demonstrated her deep commitment to keep and restore the lives of victims of human trafficking through her leadership on florida's statewide counsel on human trafficking by investing in and supporting safehouses for victims. She also partnered with multiple private businesses to help combat human trafficking in both the sex and label industries by establishing a zero-tolerance toolkit to train their staff in identifying and reporting suspected cases of human trafficking.
▶ 0:51:36Also now focus on the compassionate side of her tenure where she was in remains a stunned supporter of crime victim rights. One of the role of the delivery of services, the florida attorney general's office administered the third largest annual award to competition funds in addition to the state of florida.
▶ 0:52:04Miss bondi dedicated team of experienced victim advocates and crime compensation professionals to work with our local governmental and nongovernmental agencies,. Personal compassion was constantly on full display meeting with victims and their families.
▶ 0:52:26I stood behind and beside her at crime scenes when she visited victims in hospital rooms, at family relocation centers, and many times one on one in her offices. She demonstrated her commitment to fairness and justice by not only rigorously seeking dolled perpetrators, and client responsible, but she demonstrated the same level of passion, care and empathy for those innocent citizens who found themselves through no fault of their own victims of
▶ 0:52:58Some of the most horrific crimes committed by individuals against human beings. Mr. chairman, the united states of america and the american people would be well served by confirming pamela j bondi as our next united states attorney general. Thank you. >> distinguished members of the committee, thank you for inviting me to testify about the importance of the independence of the attorney general and the department of justice when making investigative and prosecutorial decisions.
▶ 0:53:30Before my current position at georgetown law I served for nearly 20 years as a federal prosecutor under republican and democratic administrations and three years at maine justice first as assistant attorney general and later the acting assistant attorney general for national security. I stayed before leaving in may of 2017. I do not know pam bondi.
▶ 0:53:54I am here today to speak because of my long career at the department, have reverence for the department and its mission, and its independence. The lawyers and law-enforcement officials at the department of justice are critical to preventing the weaponization of the department and preserving impartial adherence to the rule of law. For the attorney general, this means taking seriously the oath of office, which is to the constitution, not the president.
▶ 0:54:21It means recusal if their impartiality regarding any particular investigation or case could reasonably be questioned, and it means reaffirming long-standing policies limiting contact between the department and the white house on specific investigations and cases. The o to the constitution means that if there is a consistency between what the president may ask the attorney general to do and what the constitution requires, the attorney general must choose the latter.
▶ 0:54:48Although she is a member of the president's cabinet and therefore expected to implement the president's policy priorities, her duties are limited by the constitution. That means among many other things not targeting people or associations for investigation or prosecution based on protected speech, not exiting searches without a warrant, not denying the equal protection of the law to all people within the united states.
▶ 0:55:14It also means that any prior role as part of the president's defense team is over once the oath of office is taken. The attorney general is not the president's personal attorney, she is the attorney for the united states. When president ronald reagan nominated william frank smith, his former personal attorney to be the attorney general, smit was asked during his confirmation hearing how he proposed to ensure that his former relationship would not compromise his independence.
▶ 0:55:40Smith responded I would have to be very conscious of situations where it could appear that because of that relationship, a problem might be created. Smith recognized that legitimate concerns might require his work usual in certain cases to avoid the appearance of impropriety.
▶ 0:55:58As relevant to miss bondi, her work defending president trump during the first impeachment proceedings and public statements she has made about potential prosecutions of those involved in cases against president trump could create at the very least the appearance of a lack of independence if she were to open investigations into people involved in those matters.
▶ 0:56:20Similarly, any involvement in any civil case against doj about which president trump's attorneys have given notice, and which seeks more than $100 million for alleged rights violations rising at the mar-a-lago search could recently raise concerns that their impartiality that could only be addressed through recusal.
▶ 0:56:43In 1978, four years after president nixon's resignation after watergate, attorney general of group and valve established the first of what has become known at the department's white house context policy. It has been reaffirmed by attorneys general under both republican and, craddick presidents ever since.
▶ 0:57:00The doj policy recognizes the tension between protecting the department independence in making decisions about criminal and civil law enforcement while also preserving the president's ability to perform his constitutional obligations to take care that the law be faithfully executed. The policy thus bars the department from advising the white house about pending or contemplated in ortman actions subjects to limited exceptions well permitted communications about the advancement of the administration's policies.
▶ 0:57:30Just as in order to insulate those who initiate and supervise law enforcement investigations such as lying prosecutors and their supervisors, communications with the white house about specific cases must involve only the attorney general or deputy attorney general at the department and the council or deputy counsel to the president or vice president at the white house.
▶ 0:57:51A parallel white house policy memorialized by counselors to the president over multiple administrations and directed 12 white house staff contains similar restrictions on context for all departments and agencies. The incoming attorney general would be well advised to continue to adhere to the white house context policy and to urge the white house counsel to do the same. In closing, public respect for the department of justice begins with public respect for the attorney general.
▶ 0:58:16That respect come from the impartial adherence to the rule of law, free from improper political influence. The senate should ensure that the next attorney general is committed to taking the steps to earn that respect. >> thank you.
▶ 0:58:43I just want to say thank you very much for allowing me to be here today, for a man from a small town in florida whose father was a trucker and mom was a mail carrier, speaking before the U.S. senate is a true honor, so thank you for allowing me to be here. I know pam bondi for about 35 years and I've known her as a prosecutor.
▶ 0:59:02I've been her colleague, I've been her supervisor, she's been my supervisor, and I know her at the statewide prosecutor and I hope to share with you, the today about what I know about miss bondi professionally, and what I know about her as a prosecutor and what I do know about her is how she will handle the job of united states attorney general. When it comes to criminal prosecution, pam bondi is unquestionably an ace.
▶ 0:59:32She did everything from batteries, dui, first-degree capital murder cases. She's experienced almost everything within the american justice system. From going to the scenes of these tragedies to the court rooms holding hands with the victims of these crimes, pam really has done it all.
▶ 0:59:54She appreciates the rules that make our criminal justice system the best in the world, and I wholeheartedly believe she will apply them and she will follow them. Miss bondi is a tenacious but very thoughtful prosecutor. Crimes of violence upset her the most. She and I tried dozens of cases to get it before juries including first degree murders. Her level of preparation was simply outstanding.
▶ 1:00:19Her ability to connect with and speak to them on an understandable level was excellent. Juries loved her. Defense counsel respected her. And courts listen to her. It was clear that miss bondi was there because she believed what she was doing. She believed in the case she was presenting, and she really didn't have that something that made everybody in the courtroom, juries, judges, maybe even defense lawyers sometimes wanted to succeed. She was excellent and still is.
▶ 1:00:52This body is tough. She quickly earned the title of career criminal prosecutor at a very young age due to her very clear feelings about the p offenders and also for outstanding abilities in the courtroom. Her task was clear. Prosecute the habitual offenders seeking out the highest sentence possible, and she did just that.
▶ 1:01:13She wouldn't budge in plea with these repeat offenders who have proven time and time again they weren't going to my with our laws, and she always held them responsible for their offenses. Due to her top on crime approach she found yourself in court trying cases before judges and juries routinely, and she loved to be in the courtroom. She loved being in trial. The impact that prosecutors have on lives of people was never lost on this bondi.
▶ 1:01:40I sometimes found myself telling prosecutors at the office of statewide prosecution please remember what we are doing here, our jobs are great. We are so fortunate to have these jobs. With the amount of power that revealed and how this power will impact people is remarkable. Just the issuance of a simple subpoena can ruin a life, and that is an everyday thing for us. Pam bondi understands that. She realizes it.
▶ 1:02:10As you've heard, she's done it for 18 years in the courtroom and also ate more as attorney general. When she became the attorney general, she didn't forget her experiences as a prosecutor. One of the things that she brought for me as florida's statewide prosecutor, which I'm very fortunate now to have continue under our current attorney general in order, one of the things she did is she really shielded me from the politics.
▶ 1:02:40She understood how politics could impact what we do every day in a courtroom, and I will forever be grateful to both of them for shielding me from those politics. With all due respect, prosecutors, we don't usually want to be politicians. We just want to go in and do what we are supposed to do. And pam bondi made the job not only capable for me to complete, but she made it fun. She made it something I really enjoyed doing.
▶ 1:03:11And I will be forever grateful to her and general moody for allowing us to do that. You know, I said a lot more in a statement, I believe my statement stand. I know it is in the record and that got about 12 seconds left but I do want to say I have experienced times with pam bondi where I've said to her it is a different world than what you all are talking about, but where I've said to her no, you can't do that.
▶ 1:03:39She might disagree with me, she may let me know she disagrees with me, but in the end, she would look at me and say do what you've got to do, and that happened several times, a lot. She understands that. And I think she will be an excellent attorney general. Chairman, if I might say to my colleagues at the department of justice and prosecutors, as Mr.
▶ 1:04:03Ehrenberg said publicly, they have nothing to fear from pam bondi as a prosecutor and to the contrary, I truly believe they will love working for her. Pam bondi understands the rule of law, she understands the impact on lives, she understands what we do, and I believe wholeheartedly that all of them will love working for pam bondi like I have. Mr. chairman, thank you very much.
▶ 1:04:25Chair Grassley: I think all of you for being very careful about not going over the five minutes. Thank you all very much for that. I'm going to start with you, Mr. ehrenberg, and my staff gives me information that maybe you don't mind telling people that you vote for democrats and that you voted against president trump. Just saying that you probably don't mind us saying that or you wouldn't have told us.
▶ 1:04:57Chair Grassley: You clearly have political differences with miss bondi and I'm sure you disagree with her on many issues, so what would you say to critics of miss bondi who believe that she is to partisan to serve as our nations attorney general? >> thank you, Mr. chairman. Those critics should talk to her political opponent in the past like the democrat who beat me who ran against her in the general election.
▶ 1:05:28Chair Grassley: It is rare these days that you see people who battle it out in a general election remain friends after all these years. Across the aisle within the florida legislature, I know because I was in the florida legislature before I ran for attorney general, and I saw it up close. I think some of the criticism comes in that she is loyal to president trump and she is.
▶ 1:05:58Chair Grassley: She is. But I never believed that if asked to do something illegal, that she would knowingly do that. She would never step across that line. I can't imagine her doing that. She has always been tethered to the law. She understands as a 20 year prosecutor that prosecutors have to follow the evidence and the law, and because of her background as someone who is not super partisan, she had never run for office before running for attorney general.
▶ 1:06:26Chair Grassley: She doesn't come from the world of politics, she comes from the world of prosecutors and the criminal justice system than I do believe that she will act in a way as is only attentive to the law and will not cross that line to making purely political decisions.
▶ 1:06:43Chair Grassley: You worked with her on drug issues very much. Seeing how miss bondi handled the opioid crisis in florida, how do you think she will handle the crisis on our national level? >> I think she's going to get tough on fentanyl across the border.
▶ 1:07:05Chair Grassley: I don't know the specifics on how she plans to tighten up on it but I know she's going to make it a priority because when we had an opioid epidemic in florida, we were the drug supplier for the rest of the country, she went to a reluctant republican dominated legislature and told them we need to pass this prescription drug monitoring program, something that had been stalled for a decade inallahassee, and she got it done. I had run on that platform.
▶ 1:07:33Chair Grassley: I don't think I could have persuaded that legislature to do it, but she had the credibility. It took her to convince a republican legislature path these needed reforms. I don't know specifically what she will do, but I know that she will not shy away from standing up to people in her own party who will disagree with her on it.
▶ 1:07:54Chair Grassley: Mr. cox, you've worked with miss bondi for three decades and you are also a long serving statewide prosecutor. Some have suggested that miss bonnie's lobbying and political career will influence her decision-making. In your decade of working with her, have you ever known her to make a decision that was illegal or unethical? >> absolutely not. As Mr.
▶ 1:08:21Chair Grassley: Ehrenberg referred to, quite honestly miss mccord and could tell you as well, being a prosecutor is that focusing on the law and focusing on the evidence and focusing on really what is right. That is what our job is, to do justice. I know that she has embraced that and practiced that. I've never seen anything untoward in any of the cases I ever work with her on.
▶ 1:08:45Chair Grassley: You serve as miss bonnie's director of law enforcement and victim services. You spoke in your opening statement about her work in federal, state, and local law enforcement. What would you say is her biggest achievement as far as attorney general from the perspective of you as a law enforcement officer?
▶ 1:09:12Chair Grassley: >> senator, her willingness to partner with law enforcement. It's not uncommon for her to call together sheriffs and police chiefs to seek from those leaders and directors what the issues are. Florida is a large state.
▶ 1:09:31Chair Grassley: She sits down with those partners, discusses those issues, and then fiercely does everything in her power to ensure that the men and women in our state and our federal offices in our state have the resources and the tools to do their job. It was not uncommon. We had legislative sessions, sheriffs associations met in her office. Florida prosecutors association meant in her office.
▶ 1:09:57Chair Grassley: To be there to consult with her and her team at her staff on a regular basis as we addressed issues before our legislature every single year.
▶ 1:10:07Chair Grassley: Let me follow-up with you on that subject. You are aware of what happened here in january 6 in the capitol complex and the law enforcement personnel who were attacked by the mob, the demonstrators. A number of them, hundreds of them have been prosecuted. Some are serving sentences for violent felonies against our police.
▶ 1:10:33Chair Grassley: Is there anything like that in your background dealing with miss bondi where she has been called on to make a decision standing up for law enforcement in similar circumstances? >> every single day, quite frankly. Law enforcement officers killed in a state of florida, she was there to work with law enforcement agencies and those families with respect to prosecutors whether it was a statewide or local.
▶ 1:11:06Chair Grassley: She was a fierce supporter to make sure the law of the state of florida was enforced. The men and women of law enforcement and their families knew that she supported them on a regular basis. >> Mr. cox, he talked about several experiences you had with miss bondi when she was under political pressure. Could you tell us a little bit more about one of those? >> can't -- candidly there was some pressure when Mr.
▶ 1:11:31Chair Grassley: Ehrenberg mentioned -- >> pull that microphone closer to you. >> that is the first time anyone has asked me to pull a microphone closer. >> I may change my mind, go ahead. >> many judges have. Yes, right from the beginning about the problems we had with the opioid epidemic and the pill mills, she was actually, I will say this, was getting some pushback from our governor, senator rick scott. And it was about the pdm p.
▶ 1:12:04Chair Grassley: And I was there when she sat down with senator scott and we had a couple of sheriffs and we were speaking with miss bondi about it. She called the governor right then and put him on the phone with us and had us discuss with him the need for them, the prescription drug monitoring database, which ended up making a massive change, and to the senator's credit, he sat down and listen to us, ask us
▶ 1:12:35Chair Grassley: Questions, and in the end she convinced him we needed it. And it was within the next week or two that he came up here and he announced his support for them. She didn't have an agreement with a person who she loves. I mean, she very much got along very well with then governor scott, and she confronted him about it and changed his mind.
▶ 1:12:58Chair Grassley: >> this newly elected president as former president fired two attorneys general under circumstances where they disagreed with him. Senator sessions in one instance, bill barr in another, and they were both fired. So it is pretty clear that he is not averse to taking a different position than his attorney general and having a pretty short temper when it comes to dealing with it. That is the reality of what we see on the record. Not once, but twice.
▶ 1:13:29Chair Grassley: Can you understand our concern about whether she would react positively if you put that pressure on her? >> I can understand your concern, but the pam bondi I know as a prosecutor, where her heart is as a prosecutor and having my experience with her myself telling her no when she was the attorney general, I truly believe that. She understands what our duty is.
▶ 1:13:56Chair Grassley: She understands the boundaries of the ethics that you mentioned several times yesterday. She understands all of that. And she is a true prosecutor. Yes sir, I believe she will do it. >> on this question of conflict of interest and recusal, I invite you to enter this as well in the short time left. You seem to suggest that she can't recuse herself out of her current situation. Her background as a lobbyist and attorney representing private interests.
▶ 1:14:25Chair Grassley: She might be able to find some response to it, but can't overcome what you call systemic or whatever characterization. We had attorneys general in the past with backgrounds in the private sector facing similar circumstances.
▶ 1:14:42Chair Grassley: >> we have had lobbyists lobbyists it would be very hard for her to remove herself from every situation that touches on these corporate interests. One example I mentioned, there is not a pending investigation. There is one into their rival.
▶ 1:15:16Chair Grassley: She would not be expected to recuse yourself from that. Ramifications could impact. It is a small example of how interconnected corporate america is and how hard it will be to remove herself from these situations. >> my time is up. >> I will be acting on behalf of the chair.
▶ 1:15:38Chair Grassley: You ran in a primary, got defeated by a democrat, endorsed that democrat in the general election and she hired you? >> correct. >> thank you.
▶ 1:15:58Chair Grassley: You still got a liberal leaning because in the same sentence that you complemented . She had the temperament and the good judgment to look past your political views and how your you into her organization.
▶ 1:16:28Chair Grassley: I think that says a lot about people. I made friends with the guy who ran against me and nobody on the democrat side seems to like him anymore. Ms. gilbert, this lobbying thing, in the time allowed can you talk about specific things that she lobbied for?
▶ 1:16:59Chair Grassley: ? When miss bondi explained that this for handling trafficking cases, is that bad? I am assuming not. Let's go to the next one. Yesterday she focused with senator booker on the abysmal state of the bureau of prisons. She is clearly going to drill down on that.
▶ 1:17:31Chair Grassley: What specific action did she engage in that makes you feel like her sincerity toward senator booker yesterday was not genuine? >> I cannot speak to her sincerity or motivations. >> speak to what she lobbied for that you expressed as a concern for the private prisons, specifically what she lobbied for. >> absolutely.
▶ 1:17:58Chair Grassley: From what we know about her engagements with geo group, they have been condemned for -- >> there are problems with them. What specific issues do you think she carries into this office that would undermine her credibility?
▶ 1:18:29Chair Grassley: I am not an attorney. I'm trying to figure out what specific acts did she do. It will be on the bingo card because we know where that is headed. What specifically for any of them, high-tech, what did she advocate for other than the reference concern that we may have?
▶ 1:18:58Chair Grassley: What specifically have you found about pam bondi in an argument or letter that she said would undermine her credibility? >> from our perspective it is the appearance of impropriety. >> so you do not have a specific example? >> it is about the engagement of this entity.
▶ 1:19:21Chair Grassley: >> in the same way that we know the facts, it will be interesting to see what specific role that she played. Ms. mccord, you worked in the obama administration. Or you career or political? >> the entirety of my time, I was career. >> you were in a career position? Thank you.
▶ 1:19:51Chair Grassley: I did the same thing and I have done the same thing that pam bondi has done. Call someone out of the blue and say we have to take a different direction. She got a lot of blowback from the republican legislature for some of the work that she was doing. Is that true? >> that is true.
▶ 1:20:12Chair Grassley: >> if we went back at a time, we would probably find several examples where people were taking shots at her from her side of the aisle for doing something that has proven to be very important. She strikes me as someone -- that was her power. That was her influence back in her time as prosecutor and see did -- she did the right thing whether or not she would get elected, is that correct?
▶ 1:20:42Chair Grassley: >> that is correct. >> thank you all. Senator klobuchar. >> thank you all. Thank you senator durbin. Thank you to the witnesses here today. Ms. mccord, welcome back to the committee. If we could just go through these answers because it is really important to put this outside of personal friendships, whether or not the attorney general is a democrat, republican or who is in charge.
▶ 1:21:12Chair Grassley: >> >you testified that the attorney general is not the president's personal attorney. You referenced attorney general william french smith's comments at his nomination hearing. Can you talk about the importance of maintaining this distinction that the ag is the attorney for the U.S. and not the president?
▶ 1:21:35Chair Grassley: >> it is important to not only have the confidence of the career prosecutors and law enforcement officials but also to the country because the loyalty needs to be to the united states and to the constitution.
▶ 1:21:50Chair Grassley: There may be times and I think senator durbin pointed out times in the previous trump administration where the attorney general did not show sufficient loyalty to donald trump and those attorneys lost their positions. >> thank you. In your testimony you described the justice department's white house contact policy. There was a skirmish following the watergate scandal.
▶ 1:22:19Chair Grassley: It has been confirmed by beijing's under republican and democratic presidents. The policy states that communication about particular patients -- cases must be referred to the ag or other high-level officials in the justice department in order to preserve the integrity and independence of doj investigations from political interference.
▶ 1:22:42Chair Grassley: Yesterday I asked miss bondi if you agreed with the former republican attorney general that any attempt by the white house to interfere with a case is not to be countenanced and any call to a line assistant or to any attorney or political person related to a case is to be cut and curtailed. She confirmed that she agreed with that statement.
▶ 1:23:11Chair Grassley: You also testified to a parallel white house policy. Can you speak to the importance of the justice department and the white house maintaining and abiding by street contact policies? >> historically, post-watergate these policies have been instituted under republican and democratic administrations.
▶ 1:23:33Chair Grassley: Don mcgahn white house counsel in the first trump administration reinstated the policy in january of the first term because he recognized the importance that it is not just a doj policy but that all within the white house know not to pressure the department or other departments and agencies when it comes to specific matters. >> how can congress exercise oversight authorities to ensure that policies on both sides are being followed? >> starting with the questions you asked yesterday is a good start.
▶ 1:24:05Chair Grassley: If there should come any time where it seems like these policies are not being complied with or if there is a refusal to adopt or continue those policies, those are something that congress should be concerned about. >> Ms. gilbert, you have been before us many times on the subject of antitrust. As you and I know and many democrats and republicans on this committee no, monopolies will go very far to preserve their power.
▶ 1:24:32Chair Grassley: Tech funded groups spend hundreds of millions of dollars against senator grassley and my bill which was not just supported by consumer groups but also by groups of conservatives and the small business association because of the unfairness of the companies putting their own products at the top of their search engines and the unfair competition that results when they have that kind of power.
▶ 1:25:02Chair Grassley: There are cases out there right now that are really important on monopolies. Live nation, ticketmaster, being litigated to the fullest. Why is it important that the new ag continue these cases to protect consumers, enhance competition and just a general question about the rules of the road and how important this is as senator grassley and I reintroduce our bill? >> thank you for that question and for your great work in this space.
▶ 1:25:33Chair Grassley: We are hopeful that the new department of justice will continue the cases that have begun over the last four years. We have been excited to see the strong forward momentum for dealing with the concentration, taking on monopolies head on. It is so important for consumers as we think about regular people engaging with the markets.
▶ 1:25:58Chair Grassley: If they are squeezed out, cannot sell products, if small businesses cannot get ahead, these are problems for regular americans. Really hopeful that the doj will continue what they started. I wanted to put a plug-in for your fantastic bill. We hope that as the doj continues, so can the work here in the senate.
▶ 1:26:20Chair Grassley: >> thank you and I wanted to thank others on the panel for their important work when it comes to what is going on with these horrible situations where people are getting hooked while people are profiting. >> senator schmitt. >> thank you.
▶ 1:26:46Chair Grassley: We have heard about the newfound concern that my colleagues have about the independence in the ag's office. Given the last four years, it is ironic. Ms. mccord you were talking about the importance of independence. It is -- is it concerning to you that eric described himself as obama's wing man?
▶ 1:27:13Chair Grassley: >> that is probably not the best description of the job of the attorney general but the record speaks for itself. >> loretta lynch met with bill clinton just days before the fbi met with hillary clinton on the investigation of the emails. Does that meeting with the former president, does it concern you as it relates to the appearance?
▶ 1:27:40Chair Grassley: >> my understanding is that was a chance encounter on the tarmac at the airport and does not give me concern. >> I do not think that is what happened but that is an interesting characterization. I will switch to you now, Mr. cox. These are related.
▶ 1:28:03Chair Grassley: The frustration americans feel and why the decline in trust in the department of justice is because they saw what happened over the last four years which is trying to jail a political opponent. I will not ask you to comment on that. Yes. That is why you see a lot of the questions asked by my republican colleagues on this committee. We do not want to see it continue. But what we have seen over the last four years is a total disgrace.
▶ 1:28:34Chair Grassley: For the hard-working men and women in the department of justice who are not engaged in this, it has affected the department's reputation. It is why I believe in pam bondi and what she can do to restore credibility to an agency that has been politicized and get it back to its core function which is objectively administering justice and taking on violent crime. I want to ask you your experience with pam bondi.
▶ 1:29:07Chair Grassley: This has been what she has done. She's a career prosecutor. You can see her embracing this role of working with the U.S. attorneys and other law enforcement around the country to take on violent crime. We need leadership there. Crime has gone up. St. Louis and kansas city, we had partnerships with the U.S. attorney's office to take on violent crime. When joe biden came to office, those were severed for political reasons.
▶ 1:29:38Chair Grassley: It is wrong. Is that a role she will play as attorney general? >> absolutely. What you just described is not only what she practices, but she encourages everyone around her to do. I could not agree more with you about your assessment of this body. We are prosecutors. At her heart, pam is a prosecutor. Our job is to fight crime.
▶ 1:30:05Chair Grassley: We do not take lightly that our job is to do justice. That is what the courts have said. In her heart 100% that is pam bondi. Pam loves law enforcement. We all love law enforcement and everything they stand for. Yes, I believe she would do that with law enforcement and prosecutors if she did it in florida. >> we offline about your role. It is interesting.
▶ 1:30:37Chair Grassley: There is no office of statewide prosecutors. I will not ask you about that. It is not a common thing. In your experience in serving with pam bondi, did you find her committed to enforcing the law equally and impartially? >> yes, I did. That's what we are supposed to do and she embraced it. She is a complete prosecutor. She is a total prosecutor.
▶ 1:31:07Chair Grassley: That's why when I speak to her independence, it is because she believes in it. Seeing her recently, I know that's where she is. I meant it when I said to my colleagues at the U.S. department of justice, if confirmed, you will love working with pam bondi. >> I could not agree with you more which is why I was thrilled with that introduction yesterday of pam. She will be an outstanding attorney general. She deserves a bipartisan vote not only in this committee but on the senate floor.
▶ 1:31:37Chair Grassley: Thank you. >> senator welch, you are next. >> thank you very much. I thank all the witnesses. I have read your statement I want to thank the florida folks for being here. She is a competent person and has quite a resume. You have reaffirmed that.
▶ 1:32:08Chair Grassley: A couple of questions that are less about her and her qualifications but more about this questions that looms out there where there is a mutual concern about not using the justice system for political reasons. There is a point of view with my republican colleagues, it has been used that way in the prosecutions against donald trump. I do not agree with that but I hear them on that.
▶ 1:32:36Chair Grassley: There is a concern on my part and on the part of others that donald trump has made explicit statements that he intends to pursue political adversaries and he has named adam schiff and liz cheney. He is now the president who enjoys the benefit of -- he will be the president who enjoys the benefit of the immunity decision by the supreme court. I strongly disagree with that decision.
▶ 1:33:07Chair Grassley: I don't think anybody is above the law. That is the whole basis upon which our country was founded. I take him seriously when he says he wants a prosecutor to go after his political adversaries. The tradition in the justice department since watergate has been to really create a firewall between the administration, executive and the justice
▶ 1:33:37Chair Grassley: Department. You are law enforcement so you know how awesome the power is that you have so you have to have restraint as well as aggression. How does an attorney general handle a president who has already put an immense amount of pressure on bill barr, an attorney general and who did it on Mr. sessions?
▶ 1:34:04Chair Grassley: Should we take seriously president trump threat that he is going to go after his political adversaries and how do we deal with that and assess that in terms of this decision? I will ask you, Ms. mccord. >> thank you, senator. As we know that in the first trump administration attorney general sessions made the decision to recuse himself from the russia investigation because of his work with donald trump during the campaign.
▶ 1:34:37Chair Grassley: He recognized the appearance of impropriety and the need for independence. He appointed a special counsel to take over that investigation. Those are the kinds of steps that are required when there could be pressure and there was pressure put on attorney general sessions. Forever after that recusal decision he fell out of favor.
▶ 1:35:04Chair Grassley: Those are the things that an independent attorney general needs to take seriously to demonstrate that commitment to independence from political influence. >> what is difficult here is that whoever is in that job and is confronted by a very determined donald trump to do something from the prosecution point of view may not be appropriate political prosecution of an adversary for
▶ 1:35:35Chair Grassley: Payback. There is no way to know how any of us would be able to withstand that pressure. Sir, you worked with pam bondi and have a high opinion of her.
▶ 1:35:56Chair Grassley: I will give you the opportunity to say how she would be able to withstand which I think will be an enormous amount of pressure by the president at a certain point when he decides to direct toward whoever serves as his attorney general. >> I have been fortunate enough not to be in that situation because I have had attorneys general that I work for like pam bondi and ashley moody. However, a prosecutor's job is a solemn thing.
▶ 1:36:28Chair Grassley: The impact we have on the lives, you mentioned the power and you are right. It has to be respected, appreciated and embraced. Sometimes that means -- I have been in positions before where I thought if I do or say this, I could lose my job. But you have to be willing to do that. I don't know how else to say it. It is tough. It is very tough.
▶ 1:37:00Chair Grassley: My job fortunately is not a political job because of my ag's . You do have to be in the position sometimes that right is right. >> thank you very much. >> senator cruz. >> thank you to each of the witnesses here today. Mr. cox, let me start with you. You worked with miss bondi for over five years.
▶ 1:37:29Chair Grassley: Can you speak to her leadership and how she managed the attorney general role? >> fair, kind and firm. She was very decisive. In her decision, miss bondi always listened. There were times we disagreed and she would hear me out. Sometimes I would change her mind, believe it or not. It was not often, but it happened.
▶ 1:38:01Chair Grassley: Sometimes she would listen to me and go the way she felt. That was her job. She was the attorney general. She was very firm, very decisive. I will tell you the number of times I walked with her, she appreciates our role as prosecutors. The number of times I would walk away from her and she did not agree with my decision on a particular case and she would tell me, do what you gotta do. I mentioned it earlier but that is the pam bondi that I worked with. That is why I am so confident that she can fill this role.
▶ 1:38:31Chair Grassley: >> the single most important responsibility that bondi will have his restoring integrity. The last four years we have seen a pattern of politicization and weaponization at the department of justice that has done massive damage to that storied institution that is incredibly important for the rule of law.
▶ 1:38:59Chair Grassley: Speak to your assessment of general bondi's integrity and her ability to restore integrity to the doj. >> might I just answer that first by saying she is a prosecutor and that is what we are supposed to do. I will not repeat myself, senator. At her heart, she believes in the system. She believes in what we do.
▶ 1:39:28Chair Grassley: With all due respect, to everybody in this room, I don't know how much more serious it gets done impacting lives than being a prosecutor and judge that has to handle these cases. She has always respected that. She has never forgotten or lost her humanity. And she hasn't. I don't know if this is answering your question. Pam bondi likes people and she wants people to like her.
▶ 1:39:58Chair Grassley: I don't know that that is so bad for an attorney general leader. She appreciates the impact of this job. >> Mr. ehrenberg, let's talk to you. We have known each other in law school. Welcome to the swamp. Good to see you. You live in palm beach which is a lot nicer weather than up here.
▶ 1:40:22Chair Grassley: You spent three terms as the elected state attorney in palm beach county. You are democrat. You were elected as a democrat. You also in this last election voted for kamala harris, is that right? >> correct. >> you have also worked closely with general bondi. >> correct.
▶ 1:40:48Chair Grassley: >> in your judgment, same question I asked Mr. cox, how would you describe your leadership style and her integrity? >> in full disclosure, we were not just classmates, you and I, we lived in the same dorm before either of us had gray hair. >> burn those pictures. >> fair enough. Miss bondi is very hands-on.
▶ 1:41:22Chair Grassley: She was not isolated from the rest of us. She walked the hallways. She was friends with everyone. She brought her dog to work sometimes even though it probably violated code and it was a big dog. >> she did not have a barrel of whiskey on its neck, did she? >> only in cartoons. You will find that everyone who knows her, it is hard not to like her. You can disagree with her politically.
▶ 1:41:50Chair Grassley: As far as a boss, she never tried to big-time anyone. She is a person like everyone else. She expects the best from people but she has a real human touch about her. >> you also worked with her very closely in going after pill mills. Can you describe what you were able to accomplish? >> we were able to shut down the pill mills. Florida was the pill supplier for the rest of the country.
▶ 1:42:19Chair Grassley: 98 of the top 100 doctors who dispense pills were in florida. It was a national embarrassment. The oxycontin express from appalachia down to florida, people would buy their drugs and go home and sell it for profit. We ended that. She appointed me to be the lead person but we could not have done it without her. She was the person who got the legislature to change the laws. She was the one who convinced them to pass prescription drug monitoring programs. That was indispensable.
▶ 1:42:49Chair Grassley: It was her leadership that really led to a dramatic decrease in the number of deaths from opioid overdoses. >> thank you. >> thank you Mr. chairman. Thank you offer testifying today. Ms. mccord I would like to ask you about the january 6 attack on the U.S. capital. Can you simply define domestic terrorism?
▶ 1:43:14Chair Grassley: >> domestic terrorism on the united states code is an act of violence that is a crime under federal or state law that is done with the attempt to influence a policy of government through intimidation or coercion. >> based on that definition, were some of the acts committed on january 6 acts of domestic terrorism?
▶ 1:43:34Chair Grassley: >> certainly the acts of violence that violate the criminal code do seem to have appeared from many people, they seem to have been done to influence the policy of the government and specifically do not certify the electoral college.
▶ 1:43:55Chair Grassley: >> yesterday miss bondi refused to disavow president trump calling the insurrectionists "hostages" and "patriots." what would calling these criminals hardened have on this country? >> it would have an impact on the legal system and our judiciary. I published a piece about that.
▶ 1:44:25Chair Grassley: We have federal judges here appointed by republicans, democrats and president trump himself who uniformly have condemned the crimes of those who have been convicted due to their attack on the U.S. capital. Anything close to a blanket pardon which has been suggested but not promised by donald trump without individual consideration of cases would severely undermine these federal judges and undermine the criminal legal system.
▶ 1:44:55Chair Grassley: >> this has come up with one of my colleagues. We know from the disastrous supreme court community decision that president trump pretty much has a free pass to do what he wants. An unfettered president is even more dangerous if the department of justice is not independent.
▶ 1:45:23Chair Grassley: Based on your extensive experience at the doj, are there warning signs we should watch for the signal that the doj has lost its independence? >> senator, as we have seen sometimes in the past that when there are concerns among the career prosecutors and law enforcement officials at the department who have a responsibility over investigations and cases, when they have felt pressured, many of them have actually resigned.
▶ 1:45:52Chair Grassley: We saw that during the first trump administration with respect to some of the prosecutions involving flynn and stone. >> so I take it that these are indications that all is not well.
▶ 1:46:10Chair Grassley: If we were to ask the attorney general if the president ordered you or suggested or hinted that you go after his perceived political enemies, with the attorney general be able to cite attorney-client privilege and not respond to us. >> I do not want to give a legal opinion on that, senator.
▶ 1:46:37Chair Grassley: I think that is the type of pressure that we are looking to an attorney general to stand up to from the white house and I certainly want to take miss bondi at her word when she said under oath that she would exercise independent. >> the thing that is deeply concerning about miss bondi is that she is very loyal to president elect-trump and he demands 100% loyalty of all of his people.
▶ 1:47:02Chair Grassley: Yesterday miss bondi could not say that president biden had won the election in 2020. That is a basic fact. It was her loyalty to president elect-trump that basically made it hard for her, impossible for her to say that then president biden had won the election. That is concerning.
▶ 1:47:33Chair Grassley: Based on what we heard yesterday , I am very concerned that if confirmed, attorney general bondi will say yes if and when president trump asks her to do something illegal. The thing is that not much of what president elect-trump will be deemed illegal because of the supreme court's disastrous community decision -- immunity decision. I am really struggling.
▶ 1:48:04Chair Grassley: How are we to know that all is not well in terms of the independence of the doj? One thing would be if they adopt the policy of the president -- or the president adopts the policy that he will not order the doj around even if this incoming president has said that the justice department is basically his law firm.
▶ 1:48:28Chair Grassley: If you have further suggestions to indicate that kind of independence we are looking for is not being followed, I would welcome that. >> senator hirono, your time is up. Thank you. Mr. cox, I would like to start with you.
▶ 1:48:52Chair Grassley: I heard your comments with regard to both pam bondi who we are here for today and your praise for attorney general moody who you worked for as well. I would like to say a public congratulations to her being named senate designee and being the next senator from florida. Look, I can deliver the news to you. She said she will come out and will be joining us. I am thrilled.
▶ 1:49:19Chair Grassley: As a mom of school-aged kids to have another woman sitting right here next to me fighting for the people that we serve, with what I understand is her brilliant intellect, her ability and her passion for the people of florida which I know she will bring to the U.S. senate, I cannot wait to call her a colleague. On behalf of me and all of us, welcome to attorney general moody's new senate designee. We look forward to her taking the ranks. >> may I respond for comment?
▶ 1:49:54Chair Grassley: Senators, you will love ashley moody. She is a wonderful person to work with. She is brilliant. That is, wow. Thank you for telling me. The best thing about it is I can say I learned it in the united states senate. >> she will appear with us after she is concerned -- confirmed. Senator rubio will do a great job. Gratulation's to ashley.
▶ 1:50:23Chair Grassley: Let's talk about another amazing woman, pam bondi. I have reviewed talking about her. I think you said she is fair, kind and firm. You have talked about the fact that she is transparent and impartial. I would like for you one more time to say to the american people based on your previous work with pam bondi, can you explain how she will continue to operate in a fair and transparent manner as she takes the helm of the justice department?
▶ 1:50:52Chair Grassley: >> because she believes in everything you just questioned me about and she practiced it in florida. Whether you agreed with her or not, pam bondi is a person who really likes people. I think we should welcome that into government. I think sometimes we lose sight of prosecutors. I will speak to myself. We can lose sight of the fact, the immense power that we have and we get caught up in it.
▶ 1:51:27Chair Grassley: Pam bondi does not get caught up in those droppings. She loves people. She has a heart of a prosecutor. As Mr. ehrenberg mentioned, nobody has anything to fear from pam bondi. She will be a breath of fresh air. >> absolutely. I think we need to restore those very things, fairness and transparency to the department. I look forward to her taking the helm. She will do that for the american people. It is an exciting new day. Thank you very much. >> thank you for the news. >> absolutely we are thrilled. Mr.
▶ 1:51:57Chair Grassley: Ehrenberg, we need to talk with you offline about getting those stories on cruz, but also that she has a st. Bernard. I have a newfoundland. Who knew that we had a shared love for large dogs? You had the opportunity to work with pam bondi. I want to talk with you about the opioid epidemic and drug trafficking.
▶ 1:52:25Chair Grassley: Yesterday we heard pam lean into this but there is nowhere in my state that I travel or someone does not tell me a story about losing a loved one to and what breach -- opioid abuse, addiction and overdose. Tell me in your experience how she works with local and state law enforcement officers?
▶ 1:52:48Chair Grassley: I am a believer that local leaders know best and you have people who come here and somehow believe we can become experts on every issue and the truth is you have to talk to the boots on the ground on what to do, how to do it and how to affect real change. Can you speak to her relationships with state and local law enforcement and workforce and how you believe she will carry that to the department of justice? >> thank you. Thank you for the news about attorney general moody. I hope Mr.
▶ 1:53:17Chair Grassley: Cox still has a job when he goes home. When I was attorney general bondi's drug czar, we were visited by president obama's drug czar. There was a discussion that we should not trust them, he is a democrat, we were just trying to get the job done.
▶ 1:53:45Chair Grassley: We have seen it from both perspectives, a state official working with the feds and now a federal official working with the locals. The person who can best talk about how she had a great relationship with local law enforcement is him because she had a special relationship in her office and a seamless relationship with working officials that I saw. >> sheriff gheny, I would love to hear your response.
▶ 1:54:12Chair Grassley: >> unequivocally, that is one of the four leading rules about pam bondi. Work with law enforcement leaders, learn and understand the issues. We are a diverse state so there are issues. Pamela assisted us and encouraged us. She asked for advice.
▶ 1:54:40Chair Grassley: The whole pill mill and bath salt issue was brought to her by a sheriff. What we have learned in law enforcement, we often see these things first and we try to get them through our cabinet leaders to say this is happening in our state. Sometimes they listen to us. Other times they don't.
▶ 1:55:04Chair Grassley: She immediately sought out to understand what was causing that issue and create legislation to get it done against some of our republican legislators at the time who did not want it. Her tenacity prevailed. She got it done. Our state is safer because of pam bondi. >> thank you so much. >> thank you to the witnesses for being here today. Greatly appreciate your testimony. Ms.
▶ 1:55:32Chair Grassley: Mccord, thank you for your good work over the years. Just before the committee last september on the repercussions of trump versus the united states on the case of presidential immunity, you wrote in your written testimony, "there is nothing stopping a person from directing the investigation of his political enemies, even when there is no basis for doing so." as you will recall from the
▶ 1:56:02Chair Grassley: Hearing yesterday, I asked miss bondi a number of questions about what her intentions were and how she would respond if the president asked her to investigate someone, whether she thought there was a factual predicate for the case in the investigation against jack smith or liz cheney. For the most part she refused to answer any specific question.
▶ 1:56:25Chair Grassley: Did not give me a lot of confidence in her willingness to push back against this kind of improper orders from the president. What should the attorney general if the president is now immune from prosecution for violating the law will using the department of justice to do it, it does not mean the attorney general should go along with it.
▶ 1:56:52Chair Grassley: What should the attorney general do if the president says I wanted to investigate a political opponent? >> I would say the immunity decision right now applies only to the president. There is no immunity for attorney general bondi if she were to engage in illegal activity or unconstitutional activity in carrying out a directive of donald trump.
▶ 1:57:16Chair Grassley: Before we get to that, it would be important for her to make clear that she is not going to direct her department attorneys or the fbi to initiate unfounded investigations. As the department of justice throughout my tenure, we always follow the facts and the law and did not target any person for investigation based on political reason.
▶ 1:57:44Chair Grassley: That is why the independence is somewhat -- so much more important now because she is the first person to have a position of standing up to the president. >> I also asked miss bondi whether she would commit to preserving the evidence that was gathered as part of the january 6 investigation by the department. She refused to commit to preserving the evidence.
▶ 1:58:11Chair Grassley: Are there laws in place or is it merely department policy not to destroy evidence? Should we have any confidence that the evidence will be preserved? >> there are federal records act obligations that required that records be maintained. She would be well advised to consult with career attorneys who specialize in that and be guided by their counsel.
▶ 1:58:39Chair Grassley: It is certainly important in this case as in every case prosecuted by the department of justice to maintain records. >> if I could ask both you and miss gilbert, recusal of the question. Ms. mccord, let me ask you where you think the circumstance will be appropriate to accuse herself vis-a-vis her prior reputation with the president.
▶ 1:59:11Chair Grassley: In terms of her corporate clients as a lobbyist, when would it be appropriate for her to recuse herself from working on or influencing department decisions vis-a-vis her former lobbyist clients? >> with respect to her previous personal representation of donald trump, she needs to be very concerned as william french smith was when he took on the job for president reagan having been reagan's personal attorney.
▶ 1:59:39Chair Grassley: Anything that would appear to be improper, that would show impartiality, she should recuse from. For example, investigations into anyone who was involved in the first impeachment proceedings and prosecution because she defended donald trump in those proceedings.
▶ 1:59:59Chair Grassley: Even any investigations into those involved with the cases against donald trump because she has made public statements about prosecutors and investigators needing to be targeted potentially. She has used the term "the bad ones." these are the types of matters including civil matters. Donald trump has filed notice of a civil action against the department of justice based on the search at mar-a-lago.
▶ 2:00:31Chair Grassley: It would be improper for her to take any part in that -- in responding to that case. >> thank you. I would like to note that yesterday she clarified that she never represented president trump in a personal matter but worked directly with the white house.
▶ 2:00:50Chair Grassley: It is interesting because we have seen this body confirmed members who have lobbied for the chinese communist party and confirm them to positions at odni and it did not seem that my colleagues on the other side of the break I'll had an issue with that. It is interesting that we continue to hear attorney general sessions being brought up over again.
▶ 2:01:14Chair Grassley: He is from the great state of alabama but not one member of the democratic party in this actually hearing voted for him through his confirmation process . I just want to make sure that we second -- set the record straight. >> would it be possible for the other witness to answer? >> I think we are out of time but I appreciate that. Thank you to our witnesses for testifying today.
▶ 2:01:43Chair Grassley: I know that some of you traveled long to be here and we are grateful that you did that. The record will stay open until 5:00 p.m. Tonight. If you would like to add something, you are welcome to. All written questions are due at that time as well. The hearing is adjourned.