▶ 0:15:37Chair Graham: Good morning, everybody. Welcome. So, we are going to have a hearing with Mr. vought, russell. So I will give a quick introduction. You can say anything you want. We are going to have five-minute questioning. Be hard. Be challenging.
▶ 0:16:06Chair Graham: Don't make a complete fool of yourself, and let's get through this thing. All right. So, with that said, you are no stranger to this job. Mr. vought had this job. He was deputy director, omb director, president trump's first term. He was born in mount vernon, new york.
▶ 0:16:29Chair Graham: He graduated in 1998, went to georgetown university, worked on capitol hill at eigh -- as a legislative assistant for hinkle. That is a big delta there. From 2040 2008, he worked as executive director for a committee. 2009 to 2010, director of the housing republican conference.
▶ 0:16:59Chair Graham: Again, he was omb director under the first trump term. Deputy and then became omb director. You have done it once and want to do it again. We are glad on every site you are willing to do it again. Senator merkley.
▶ 0:17:16Sen. Merkley: Thank you very much, Mr. chairman. Congratulations on your new role. Look forward to working with you. And welcome to the committee, senator cornyn, senator ricketts, and new to the senate and to the committee, senator moreno.
▶ 0:17:39Sen. Merkley: This committee will be deeply engaged in the policies that emerge because reconciliation will play a central role, and reconciliation begins right here in this room. We will consider trump's budget requests, and I must say my deepest concern about the reconciliation bills is they will betray working americans.
▶ 0:18:08Sen. Merkley: Working americans who president trump appealed to in his campaign, working americans who listened to the strategies he laid out that he proposed. But certainly, the actual plan is not to help working people. The actual plan is to help the wealthy get wealthier with massive tax giveaways.
▶ 0:18:38Sen. Merkley: With working families paying the bill. Now, how are these massive giveaways to the wealthiest families going to be paid for? Well, by slashing services to working families and the struggling families trying to get on their feet so they can thrive and get to the middle class. This is a great betrayal.
▶ 0:19:03Sen. Merkley: Today, we will consider president elect's nomination of russell vought to lead the office of management and the budget, which is really the place where this campaign is coordinated. We will hear very different ideas about how to take our country forward. From my friends across the aisle and from Mr.
▶ 0:19:24Sen. Merkley: Vought, we will hear we need to continue to give tax giveaways, massive tax giveaways to the wealthiest americans. And we will hear about how the nonpartisan expertise that makes our country run smoothly should be replaced by those with blind political loyalty.
▶ 0:19:47Sen. Merkley: And you will hear how programs that have assisted the environment or unions, organizing working people for public health should instead be replaced by programs to serve big corporations and the mega-millionaires.
▶ 0:20:06Sen. Merkley: Our side of the aisle has a different vision, that we stand up for working families, that wealthy need to pay their fair share of taxes, that the government should serve everyone, not just the privileged and the powerful. From my side of the aisle, you will hear about how we need to expand medicare's ability to negotiate the price of 15 expensive drugs. Those drugs were laid out by president biden according to the law. I will submit this to the record, Mr. chairman.
▶ 0:20:38Sen. Merkley: Those drugs include the weight loss drug that has currently served 2.3 million people. The first 10 drugs that were negotiated cut the price one third to two thirds or more, including 79% on one drug, and americans are simply outraged that we spend more on r&d to develop these drugs than any other nation. That is our taxpayer dollars.
▶ 0:21:09Sen. Merkley: And we get the highest price among the developing countries instead of the best, which we deserve. This vision as laid out is the great betrayal of america's working families. We will continue to debate that I am sure in the course of the hearings that are ahead. I have no doubt, Mr.
▶ 0:21:37Sen. Merkley: Vought, that you have the intellectual expertise and experience. You were omb director before. You know all the ins and outs. It is really a question of whether we will accomplish something that provides a foundation for american families to thrive or simply to increase the wealth disparities that make this a government by and for the powerful instead of by and for the people.
▶ 0:22:08Sen. Merkley: The washington post reported that officials said the result of your last tenure underscored the tensions that come with having a deeply ideological operative thrust into position with complicated, often nonpartisan challenges. This turned out to be spot on.
▶ 0:22:25Sen. Merkley: You were responsible for the fiscal year 2021 budget issued by the trump administration, and it had close to $1 trillion cuts to health care for struggling americans. It had $300 billion in cuts to social safety programs, things like nutrition assistance and earned income tax credit and the child tax credit. $170 billion cut by increasing the cost of college loans.
▶ 0:22:56Sen. Merkley: I am the first of my family to go to college. I think college should be more of horrible to everyone, not making it more expensive so only rich people can afford to have their kids go to college. Use road out programs like the community development block grants -- you zeroed out programs like the community development block grants. You proposed $1 trillion in tax giveaways with over to third going to the top 10%. That is very, very troubling.
▶ 0:23:28Sen. Merkley: And, Mr. vought, you were at the center of the strategy of impounding funds. We had this conversation in 1974 in congress. We passed an act because congress said when we say the cement of money should be spent on this program, it is not up to the president to spend less, but you told me in your office you are quite comfortable assuming the law does not matter and you will just trade the money for a program as a ceiling rather than
▶ 0:23:59Sen. Merkley: A required amount. The courts have found otherwise with the fact that you are willing to say this is exactly what you plan to do it again. It should trouble every single member of the senate. And when you were at the center of the impoundment of the funds for ukraine that resulted in the impeachment of president trump and his former service, you blamed a staff subordinate. That troubles me too.
▶ 0:24:31Sen. Merkley: It is something you were so involved in. When it goes awry, you say it was not me, I gave that responsibility to someone else who works for me. That is not leadership. And certainly your views are deep held. Deeply held. You continued to advocate for them in your think tank, the center for renewing america, so we saw that. There are other things that trouble many of us.
▶ 0:24:59Sen. Merkley: The fact that you are for the abolition of abortion rights and don't believe in exceptions. Not exceptions for rape, incest, the life of the mother. And it is troubling that you continue to participate in the big lie that is the 2020 election was rigged. This may be essential for your loyalty test to the president, but it is a willingness to manipulate and deceive americans that certainly bothers me.
▶ 0:25:29Sen. Merkley: I think we need a director who respects the rule of law, not the rule of one man, who is guided by facts, not partisan ideology, who serves working families, not mega-millionaires and billionaires. So I am disturbed you are eager to lead the betrayal of america's working families. Mr. chairman, I turned it back to you.
▶ 0:25:51Chair Graham: I will put you in the undecided column. I disagree with what he said. That is why we have the hearing. More importantly, the american people apparently disagree because we want it. I don't know what your views on abortion are. I don't know how it really much matters. President trump said it was rigged, he won.
▶ 0:26:17Chair Graham: I don't particularly agree with that, but you know, the bottom line is I think you are qualified for the job. I know he picked you. I think all of us will vote for you and none of them will vote for you, but you need to explain the best you can how you see the job, why you do the things you do, whether or not you are betraying the country, or trying to get the country on a more sustainable track. Again, we just had an election. When you win, you get to pick people. I am glad he picked you.
▶ 0:26:48Chair Graham: So would you stand up and let me swear you in? Raise your right hand, please. Do you solemnly swear the testimony you get before this budget committee is the truth, the whole truth, and nothing but the truth, so help you god?
▶ 0:26:58Mr. Vought: I do.
▶ 0:26:59Chair Graham: Thank you. The floor is yours.
▶ 0:27:02Mr. Vought: Thank you, Mr. chairman, the ranking member, members of this esteemed committee for the opportunity to appear before you today. The victim -- let me begin by thanking my girls. Their love and support and enthusiasm for me serving again is a major reason why I feel that going back to omb is the right endeavor at the right moment.
▶ 0:27:30Mr. Vought: Beyond my newsas him for being at president trump's side -- beyond my enthusiasm at president trump's side. It is my honor to serve as the director of omb. The president has offered the american people and government that works for all americans, not the interest of bureaucrats in an entrenched establishment.
▶ 0:27:53Mr. Vought: Fulfilling that vital promise during my previous time at omb as both deputy director and director was among the most rewarding career experiences of my career. Throughout that time, I have been driven by taxpayers and their families. Growing up as the son of an electrician, a schoolteacher, I saw firsthand the sacrifices my parents made to balance their budget and save for the future. They are a reminder of the burden government spending can place on everyday americans.
▶ 0:28:22Mr. Vought: My parents and countless others like them have always been the measure by which I evaluate policies and spending decisions. Today, nearly 80% of americans do not feel confident their children will lead better lives than they have. Nearly double the 40% of americans who said the same two decades ago. What I looked at the government waste in our national debt, I know I fear for my daughter's future. Almost half of our fellow citizens expect their standard of living to be worse than that of their parents.
▶ 0:28:54Mr. Vought: A quick part of understanding the president's election. I have eager to get back to fulfilling the promise of a federal government that works as hard as people like my parents. Omb's mission goes beyond crafting the president's budget. It encompasses the management of the federal government of reforming regulation, and coordinate in across agencies to ensure efficient and effective implementation of the american people's will as expressed by the last election.
▶ 0:29:24Mr. Vought: A strong interagency process delivers the best results for all americans. And I believe omb's collaborative ethos is key to achieving those outcomes. The civil servants at omb are among the most resourceful and innovative individuals I have ever worked with. It has been my privilege to work alongside them, and I look forward to leading and supporting them as director once again as we labor together to make government work.
▶ 0:29:51Mr. Vought: We have to use taxpayer dollars wisely because inflation driven by irresponsible spending taxes americans twice. The average american household has lost roughly $2000 of purchasing power since january 2021. The forgotten men and women of this country who work hard every day in cities and towns across america deserve a government that empowers them to achieve their dreams.
▶ 0:30:19Mr. Vought: The office of not be a household term but the agency's work profoundly impacts their lives. If confirmed, I will continue to serve with their best interest at heart, striving to ensure every decision contributes to a more prosperous future for all americans. Thank you for considering my nomination. I look forward to answering your questions and the opportunity to discuss how omb can continue to deliver on that vital mission.
▶ 0:30:44Chair Graham: Thank you very much. To your family, welcome. So, to start with, what would happen to the economy if the 2017 tax cuts that were passed through reconciliation by the republicans expire and go away? What would happen?
▶ 0:31:04Mr. Vought: I think americans would have a major tax increase on their hands that would lead to a lot less innovation, a lot less productivity, and we would have a worsening economy that I would not want to predict how bad it would be.
▶ 0:31:18Chair Graham: Treasury secretary nominees said it would be catastrophic. Do you agree with that?
▶ 0:31:23Mr. Vought: Yes, sir.
▶ 0:31:24Chair Graham: That is one of the things we want to do on our side. Is it $4.5 trillion in new taxes if all of this goes away?
▶ 0:31:33Mr. Vought: That is the static cost of it. Yes, sir.
▶ 0:31:36Chair Graham: We don't want it to go away. I guess they do. On regulations, do you have a say about regulations, government regulations?
▶ 0:31:45Mr. Vought: Omb runs the office of information and affairs charged to set up the president's deregulatory agenda. If confirmed, that will be a major aspect of the job.
▶ 0:31:57Chair Graham: When it comes to energy production, will you pledge to try to make it easier for america to soundly and safely extract the natural resources that we own so we don't have to buy oil and gas from people who hate our guts?
▶ 0:32:14Mr. Vought: Yes, senator.
▶ 0:32:15Chair Graham: Ok. Do you believe that would make us safer and more energy independent?
▶ 0:32:20Mr. Vought: I do believe it is vital from a security standpoint and the standpoint of americans's pocketbooks to rely on cheap american energy and not squander that.
▶ 0:32:29Chair Graham: Is it part of this goal -- is it part of the goal of this administration to make sure that in the ai space we dominate?
▶ 0:32:36Mr. Vought: Yes, it is.
▶ 0:32:37Chair Graham: You have a role in that, how to create a regulatory environment that allows us to compete with china?
▶ 0:32:43Mr. Vought: We will. We articulate to the federal agencies the guidance the president would like with regard to the artificial intelligence.
▶ 0:32:50Chair Graham: When it comes to spending, is it your goal to reduce federal spending where you can responsibly?
▶ 0:32:56Mr. Vought: Yes, sir.
▶ 0:32:58Chair Graham: Do you believe there is room in the budget to eliminate programs that most americans would not feel the effect of?
▶ 0:33:04Mr. Vought: I do. There is plenty of areas in the federal government to begin to tackle our spending and debt.
▶ 0:33:11Chair Graham: So you promise me you would do the best you can to reduce federal spending in a responsible way.
▶ 0:33:16Mr. Vought: Yes, senator.
▶ 0:33:17Chair Graham: Good. When it comes to the president's executive order about suspending foreign assistance for 90 days, do you know exactly how that works? Does that stop money going to israel?
▶ 0:33:32Mr. Vought: No, senator. It is a 90 day review.
▶ 0:33:35Chair Graham: Review, ok.
▶ 0:33:38Mr. Vought: Of programs that are in place. It is to ensure that all of those programs are consistent with the president's viewpoint of which aid to israel continues to be one of the.
▶ 0:33:48Chair Graham: What is the most important function of the federal government interview?
▶ 0:33:52Mr. Vought: I believe it is to keep the american people safe and secure so they can enjoy their liberties and protect their rights.
▶ 0:33:57Chair Graham: Are you familiar with the amount of money we spend gdp wise on defense? What is it right now?
▶ 0:34:03Mr. Vought: I am aware.
▶ 0:34:05Chair Graham: It is like 3.1%.
▶ 0:34:07Mr. Vought: 3%, yes.
▶ 0:34:10Chair Graham: It is going down to the mid-2's. Do you realize it is only four times and never history we have had that much money spent on our defense? Will you be open minded to mature we can defend this nation and create a bigger navy?
▶ 0:34:25Mr. Vought: Absolutely. It is a priority of the president. It was a priority at omb the first term to mature we establish maritime supremacy in this country, and it will be if confirmed.
▶ 0:34:36Chair Graham: What is the size? You know how much money the state and foreign operations subcommittee spends on the state department of foreign assistance?
▶ 0:34:47Mr. Vought: Off the top of my head, I don't know the allegation.
▶ 0:34:50Chair Graham: $69 billion. That is for the entire department. The aid we provide to distressed places in the world. What percentage of the federal budget is that? Do you know?
▶ 0:35:04Mr. Vought: I believe if you did a small percentage, it would be small.
▶ 0:35:10Chair Graham: It is 1%. Having said that, trying to save money. Let's not waste money. I believe I have a pretty hawkish guy. If you don't get involved in the world and don't have programs in africa, where china is trying to buy the whole continent, we are making a mistake. It is 1% of the budget. You can eliminate it all and not balance the budget. I think they are a critical component of defending america and our values.
▶ 0:35:38Chair Graham: I look forward to working with you to make that count better, but the concept of soft power means a lot to me, and that is coming from a pretty hawkish guy. With that, senator merkley.
▶ 0:35:49Sen. Merkley: Thank you very much, Mr. chairman. On day one of issued an executive order that requires agencies to pause a disbursement of funds that were authorized. The inflation reduction act and infrastructure investment and jobs act. There is a legal mechanism for changing pass laws. It is called a rescission.
▶ 0:36:18Sen. Merkley: There is an illegal one called an impoundment. Will you send a rescission message to congress or use the illegal common strategy -- the illegal impoundment strategy?
▶ 0:36:30Mr. Vought: Those eo's were positive ensure that the funding that is in place is consistent and moves in a direction along the lines of what the president ran on, unleashing american energy away from the green new deal.
▶ 0:36:46Sen. Merkley: Which strategy will you use? It is a simple question.
▶ 0:36:50Mr. Vought: There is a section in those eo's that says the allsup of legislative affairs will work with the office of management and budget. They may put forward rescissions. Again, the language of the eo says it is required by law and it is meant to do the programmatic delight to figure out, what are the best ways to make sure the funding --.
▶ 0:37:14Sen. Merkley: Thank you. I will just know you are not willing to say you will not use rescissions for the legal method rather than the illegal method. That is a big concern for all of us here. Because the constitution laid out the vision that congress makes the law, not the president. So the fact that you continue to advocate for this impoundment strategy, that is completely in violation of our constitution.
▶ 0:37:43Sen. Merkley: I am deeply disturbed that you will not renounce that today. So let's turn to work requirements. You have been a big advocate of work requirements. You encouraged states to adopt waivers that would allow them to do that for medicaid. Once they tried it in arkansas, it produced no increase in the hours worked, no increase in employment. It failed. Why did it fail?
▶ 0:38:13Sen. Merkley: Because the way people are able to work as when they are healthy. They cannot access health care because you want to cut it off. They are trapped in poverty. Trapping people in poverty is really, well, not helpful. Now that your idea failed so miserably, are you going to advocate for it again?
▶ 0:38:28Mr. Vought: Senator, one of the major legislations that our side has been very proud of since the 1990's was the impact of welfare reform in the 1990's. They learned to caseload reductions, people getting off of welfare, going back into the workforce, and we think that type of thinking should be applied to other federal programs, and it has informed not only medicaid but other programs to be able to encourage people to get back into the
▶ 0:38:59Mr. Vought: Workforce, increase labor force participation.
▶ 0:39:01Sen. Merkley: You believe cutting of health care encourages people to work when they need to get better health in order to work? It does not make any sense. It has been a failed experiment. But you answered the question. You are still an advocate of the failed approach that traps people in poverty, and it is quite disturbing.
▶ 0:39:22Sen. Merkley: According to the treasury department analysis produced this month, the truck tax giveaways would give an average tax cut of $314,000 to the richest americans, the top 0.1%, and six dollars annually to the average member of the bottom 10%. A cup of coffee for those trying to get on their feet in the course of a year, and $300,000 in additional income for the richest americans. Is this kind of backwards?
▶ 0:39:49Mr. Vought: Senator, the president's tax cuts provided tax cuts for all americans. It had a sizable increase in the child tax credit. It had expansion of the standard deduction. It was something that benefited all americans and as a result led to a strong economy that we hope to replicate again by having an extension of those important tax cuts.
▶ 0:40:09Sen. Merkley: So you are very comfortable with a cup of coffee per year for the bottom 10% while you get $300,000 to the richest americans according to the treasury department analysis?
▶ 0:40:19Mr. Vought: There are people at the higher end in charge of small businesses that are taking great risks to innovate and hire additional people that are not in their tax bracket. That is part of the way that you structure economic growth.
▶ 0:40:35Sen. Merkley: My final question because I am running out of time. Your think tank in 2023 proposed $3.6 trillion in tax giveaways, primarily going to the richest americans. And to make the numbers work, you assumed your giveaway would produce the magic asterisk. You're are probably familiar with that.
▶ 0:40:57Sen. Merkley: The magic asterisk says, don't worry, be happy, the economy will improve because we giveaway the treasury to the richest americans and more revenue will come in. It has failed every sickle time and has been put forward. Not a single analysis has confirmed it. Not from any serious analysis from cbo, the budget office, the committee on taxation, and are you still a believer in the magic asterisk?
▶ 0:41:25Mr. Vought: When you cut taxes, it has a dynamic impact on the economy, and we see that with revenues continuing to go up after all of the tax cuts we have seen in history in the 1920's, 1960's, 1980's, both of the bush tax cuts, and the truck tax cuts. We have seen a dynamic impact on the economy.
▶ 0:41:49Sen. Merkley: Your facts are wrong but we will continue the discussion, I am sure.
▶ 0:41:50Chair Graham: During the first trump term before covid, african-american and hispanic household incomes were at their highest?
▶ 0:42:00Mr. Vought: Yes, senator.
▶ 0:42:05Sen. Grassley: I have 610 billion dollars of improper payments just in health care. I would bet a lot of this information comes from whistleblowers. My question to you is about whistleblowing. Do you have any role in protecting whistleblowers, encouraging whistleblowers, maybe changing the culture and a lot of agencies that treat whistleblowers like skunks at a picnic?
▶ 0:42:36Sen. Grassley: Would you tell me about if there is anything you can do to help this process of whistleblowing that helps us explain not just the waste of money, but also improper government action?
▶ 0:42:49Mr. Vought: Senator, thanks for the question. I think whistleblowers play an enormous role in helping us weed out waste, fraud, and abuse. As a senate and hill staffer, I benefit from reading inspector general reports which they were a part of.
▶ 0:43:08Mr. Vought: From my standpoint at omb, my view is omb should be an advocate for whistleblowers in every possible way, and to make sure we value and as a result the agency heads value the work they do. We will be looking for opportunities along those lines.
▶ 0:43:25Sen. Grassley: I would like your view of how you can play a role in making the recent supreme court decision to overturn the chevron doctrine, how that can help you stop our government from being overregulated bureaucrats, overreaching, using the statute that maybe can be
▶ 0:43:56Sen. Grassley: Liberally interpreted, and all of that.
▶ 0:43:57Mr. Vought: Thank you, senator. It is one of those aspects of the regulatory process in terms of deregulating, and terms of making sure that agencies are sticking to the law that we want to make your confirmed we want to get properly set up. That would be part of the review process, not unlike cost-benefit analysis, and making sure agencies are not coming up with new interpretations of what the statute should say. We want to stick to the statute.
▶ 0:44:28Sen. Grassley: So you will be watching that regulatory process to make sure it is followed?
▶ 0:44:35Mr. Vought: Yes, senator.
▶ 0:44:38Sen. Grassley: Another thing that irritates me about -- by the way, these problems I am talking about are not just democrat problems. They are republican and democrat problems that we have to deal with. Another one would be not answering our letters. I don't know whether I got a lot of letters to your department that have not been answered.
▶ 0:45:03Sen. Grassley: But when pam bondi was in my office, I gave her a stack of 158 letters that the justice department just the last four years have not answered. It was somewhat the same under obama and trump in a previous sense. We have a constitutional spots ability to make sure the executive branch faithfully executes our laws. So we want to make sure that these letters are answered.
▶ 0:45:35Sen. Grassley: So on september 15, 2023, I sent president biden's omb director a letter asking a simple question. Where is the implementation guidance for the open government data act? That is just one example. At that point, omb was five years late in issuing the guidance. The guidance was intended to make government information more open and available.
▶ 0:46:05Sen. Grassley: In the final days of the biden administration, then released the guidance but never directly responded to my request. If confirmed, will you commit to ensuring omb provides timely and complete responses to congressional oversight?
▶ 0:46:18Mr. Vought: Yes, senator. I think it is very important and is one of the things I asked my team to let me know immediately the day of when senators and cumbersome in our writing and sending us letters. I want to be immediately aware and I have said this to all of you in our individual meetings. I want to know before it gets time to have to send a letter, which is an important part of the process.
▶ 0:46:44Sen. Grassley: Should you be confirmed, you will face a daunting task of reining in the federal government. Besides crafting a responsible budget, what actions can you take as omb director to begin rightsizing the federal government.
▶ 0:47:05Mr. Vought: We will go, if confirmed, right into the process of finishing the fiscal year 2025, helping the president come to a view on how that should proceed. We will be in the process of various discussions with regard to conciliation, which are very important.
▶ 0:47:25Mr. Vought: And then there is the normal management of different agencies for waste, fraud, and abuse, beyond sending a presidential budget, we will have to get started and get caught up based on the normal process of an incoming administration.
▶ 0:47:38Sen. Grassley: Thank you.
▶ 0:47:39Chair Graham: If I were you, I would answer senator grassley's letter. And I would be pro-whistleblower. Senator murray.
▶ 0:47:48Sen. Murray: Thank you, Mr. chairman. Mr. vought, I appreciated the opportunity to meet with you last week, but I do continue to have very serious concerns regarding your nomination, starting with your position and record on impoundments.
▶ 0:48:05Sen. Murray: I do not believe what happened in the case of withholding security assistance to ukraine in 2019 while you were acting omb director was an accident or a misunderstanding, and I fear it is actually a harbinger of what is to come the next four years.
▶ 0:48:22Sen. Murray: In fact, on his first day in office, we saw the president order among other things what appears to be an illegal deferral of inflation reduction act, bipartisan infrastructure law, and foreign assistance funds, as senator merkley referred to. Mr.
▶ 0:48:38Sen. Murray: Vought, your written response when pressed on this, that you will follow the advice of the incoming omb general counsel, someone who has called the impoundment control act a stupid law, and recently tweeted at you to impound, baby, impound, is a bit rich. As I said to you in our meeting, members in congress on both sides must know a deal is a deal.
▶ 0:49:06Sen. Murray: A deal is a deal when we reach a bipartisan agreement on major legislation. Agreements cannot happen and congress cannot function without that level of trust. And impound, bb, impound, is not the answer I am looking for. Will you, if confirmed as director, faithfully follow the law? The empowerment control act. Yes or no?
▶ 0:49:31Mr. Vought: I will faithfully uphold the law. The president ran on the notion the impoundment control act is unconstitutional. I agree with that. I would in response to both questions say what the president has unveiled already are not impoundments.
▶ 0:49:49Sen. Murray: Has it ever been said to be unconstitutional by the court of law?
▶ 0:49:54Mr. Vought: Not to my knowledge.
▶ 0:49:56Sen. Murray: Know, so it is the law of the land. I don't care what the president said when he was running. It is the law of the land. Will you follow that law if you are confirmed to this office?
▶ 0:50:06Mr. Vought: The president and his people go through a review with our lawyers if confirmed, including the department of justice, to explore the parameters of the law with regard to the impoundment control act. He has not developed a strategy he has announced as it pertains to how he would approach it. There are pieces of legislation that have been proposed by members of this committee.
▶ 0:50:29Sen. Murray: We propose legislation all the time. If the rule of the law in a state is that it is a 15 mile per hour speed limit, you can't just say, I think that is irresponsible and I will challenge it so therefore I don't have to follow it. The impoundment law is the law. Will you follow it or not? You can't say we will look at it and might challenge it in court. It is the law today. Will you follow that law as director?
▶ 0:50:59Mr. Vought: The reason why the president ran on this is 200 years of precedent.
▶ 0:51:04Sen. Murray: You are telling me the law is the law. Will you follow the law?
▶ 0:51:09Mr. Vought: What he found in the first term as we had agencies that would push outspending in the first year.
▶ 0:51:14Sen. Murray: I will take my time back for a minute and tell all of us we work all the time on appropriations to come to an agreement. We work on agreements and decide we will both vote for this, we have an agreement. How could we ever have an agreement in the future if a president in the future has say over that saying, never mind, I will not pay for this part of it? We have to have agreements. It is the law of the land.
▶ 0:51:44Sen. Murray: I have to say your answer to this should be disconcerting to every member on this committee. I have a minute left and I want to ask you another important question to me because as director of the powerful office of omb, your job will not merely to be to execute the president's agenda but to advise on policy issue so I wanted to ask about women's health policy. You were a lead author of the antiabortion project 2025.
▶ 0:52:14Sen. Murray: You were also caught a few minutes ago saying when it comes to abortion you "want to get to abolition." everyone should understand that abortion, abolition, means zero abortions under any circumstance whatsoever. So, Mr. vought, you have said you don't believe in exceptions for rape, incest, or life of the mother. Is that your position?
▶ 0:52:36Mr. Vought: My views are not important. I am here on behalf of the president as nominee to restore fiscal icon ability.
▶ 0:52:43Sen. Murray: I am asking you a question under oath because you want to be director of an office that will advise the president, and we have a right to know your views. Will you answer the question?
▶ 0:52:53Mr. Vought: I will because it is consistent with the views the president ran on repeatedly and made his views very clear on abortion in the last election.
▶ 0:53:03Sen. Murray: Even in the case of rape, incest, and life of the mother?
▶ 0:53:07Mr. Vought: That is his view and I was to clean abide by the president's view. That will be a general theme throughout his hearing. You come into an administration and you do with the president ran on, what the president's viewpoints are.
▶ 0:53:22Sen. Murray: You don't need to say anything else. My time is up. It is very clear what your stance on this is. People in this country should know that, women and men alike.
▶ 0:53:32Chair Graham: Senator crapo. Never mind. Senator johnson.
▶ 0:53:39Sen. Johnson: Mr. vought, thanks for being here again. I hope this is one of many appearances before the committee. In your appearance before the homeland committee, I spent a lot of time on spending. I want to focus on revenue. I want to talk in general macro terms. If you take a look at federal outages, we spent 8.2% on average in the 1960's.
▶ 0:54:11Sen. Johnson: 1980's, 21.5%. The 90's, 19.5%. To thousands, 19.6%. 2010 through 2019, 20 1%. We are right around 25 percent of gdp federal spending. What do you think is an appropriate level of gdp? What would be the goal for this administration? We talked about getting back to pre-pandemic level spending.
▶ 0:54:38Sen. Johnson: Last five years, we have averaged $6.5 trillion. What is an appropriate percentage of gdp for federal spending?
▶ 0:54:47Mr. Vought: Senator, it a great question. We have not set a fiscal goal yet for this administration but try to get back to historical levels of outlays is one of the important first steps to begin to find out ways to be able to not set records as a percentage of gdp, whether that is spending outlays as a percentage of gdp or debt as a percentage of gdp. As you know, we are above levels of world war ii, which we never thought we would get there outside of crises.
▶ 0:55:18Mr. Vought: We need to change the trajectory we are on as a country for sure.
▶ 0:55:21Sen. Johnson: Ok, so I want to work very closely with you to bring down that level spending to a reasonable pre-pandemic level. It is absurd we are basically spending at pandemic levels. In terms of the automatic tax increase that would go into effect if we don't take action, I would think the first goal would be to return certainty that that would not happen. Would you agree with that?
▶ 0:55:47Mr. Vought: Yes, senator.
▶ 0:55:49Sen. Johnson: Ok. One way of doing that, I proposed this morning at a political event, I know people talk about it, I would recommend three steps. First, reconciliation. Handle the border. Keep it simple. We all agree on that. Second would be, just extend the tax and jobs act as it is.
▶ 0:56:12Sen. Johnson: That would take any tax increase off the table because what I want to do and the third step is to stupefy and rationalize the tax code. One thing I found is there is nothing simple about doing that. I want to throw it out there. I think republicans would all agree we want to return certainty there will not be a massive tax increase. This would be one way to do it. Let's get in there, extend it using current policy. Senator crapo's idea, which makes sense.
▶ 0:56:43Sen. Johnson: Let's discuss that idea for a minute. In past budgets, we adhered to the rule that a spending policy that expires, if you extend that, there is no cost, but if it is a tax cut that expires, now all of a sudden you are dealing with trillions of dollars. You may come I don't believe those scores. Don't you think it makes a lot of sense to treat spending and taxes the exact same way?that if we pass a budget in this committee, it will be based on current policy for spending and taxes?
▶ 0:57:13Mr. Vought: Senator, I am not here to make announcements strategically for the administration but I think it makes sense to be able to treat spending the same way you treat the tax baseline, so I think that is something that should be considered as you navigate the reconciliation process and have conversations with the parliamentarians. But I think that is a very important discussion that needs to continue moving forward to give options for the president and this body.
▶ 0:57:40Sen. Johnson: So again, I am always speaking in terms of goals of things. Let's take any kind of automatic tax increase off the table as quick as possible and whatever we do, I don't like the term tax reform, I like text some and rationalization, but whatever we do, it needs to be permanent. Let's not make the mistake of having automatic tax increases in what we do next. That will be complex, ok?
▶ 0:58:09Sen. Johnson: There is nothing simple about tax supplication. One of the things we ought to look at our tax expenditures -- are tax expenditures. I had my staff print out tax expenditures. This is 170 of them totaling about 6% of our economy. Some of these are legitimate reductions. I would not look at them as tactics miniature. Is this something the administration is willing to look at, trying to dramatically simplify our tax system?
▶ 0:58:42Sen. Johnson: It costs $400 billion to comply with it. Is that something you will work with this committee to work on?
▶ 0:58:48Mr. Vought: Yes, senator, happy to look at that list as well.
▶ 0:58:51Chair Graham: I don't know if it will be one step, two steps, or three steps, but let's take a step. Senator sanders.
▶ 0:58:59Sen. Sanders: Thank you, Mr. chairman. I look forward to working with you.
▶ 0:59:05Chair Graham: Yes, sir.
▶ 0:59:07Sen. Sanders: Mr. vought, we are living in a moment in history at a time when 60% of our people are living paycheck-to-paycheck. We have more income wealth and -- inequality that we have had. People are struggling to put food on the table. The very rich are getting much richer.
▶ 0:59:34Sen. Sanders: We have heard from our republican colleagues in the house that they think it is a good idea to go forward to provide massive tax breaks to the billionaire class and at the same time help pay for that by cutting back on medicare. I know that you are more than aware that medicaid not only provides health care to tens of millions of lower income people, but two out of three people in nursing homes and elderly people.
▶ 1:00:04Sen. Sanders: They are on medicaid, paid for by medicaid. You are going to be an advisor to the president if you are approved. Will you tell the president that it is immoral, that it is wrong to cut medicaid, cut health care for low income americans, children, and the elderly, and give tax breaks to the very richest people in our society?
▶ 1:00:33Sen. Sanders: Is that something we can count on you to do?
▶ 1:00:35Mr. Vought: I appreciate the question. One of the problems we have in the medicaid problem is the extent to which instead of being a program for the poor alone and the extent to which it is for nursing homes and things of that nature we have able-bodied working adults on the program that are benefiting from a higher match rate than the populations it was originally designed for, and as a result of that, expanded match, you also
▶ 1:01:06Mr. Vought: Have states chasing that match in other ways that have made it so they are not looking at improper payments.
▶ 1:01:10Sen. Sanders: I don't have a lot of time. You are going into another area and that is the health care system in general. As you well know, unfortunately, the united states of america is the only major country on earth not to guarantee health care to all people as a human right. And the result of that despite medicaid, and we can argue about this aspect of medicaid, 85 million americans are uninsured or underinsured.
▶ 1:01:40Sen. Sanders: Importantly, and your colleague musk made this point, we are spending far more on health care than any other country per person. I wonder, as an advisor to the president, will you try to determine how it is that countries around the world are able to provide care to all of their people and in some cases spent 50% per capita of what we are spending?
▶ 1:02:07Sen. Sanders: Do you think the function of the american health care system should be to make huge profits for the insurance companies and drug companies, or do you think maybe we should have a system that guarantees health care to everyone as a human right?
▶ 1:02:21Mr. Vought: I believe it is very important to put the health care dollars that americans are covering for the health care system which is substantial, and to make sure we have the best outcomes in those programs. I want the people who benefit from medicaid to have a great medicaid program, and I look at the situation, the tragedy we had where a 12-year-old dies of a toothache because of the infection.
▶ 1:02:47Sen. Sanders: I don't want to argue. The health care system in my view is broken and dysfunctional, but my question to you is a simple one. It is about advice to the president. Do you think we should join every other major country on earth and say whether you are poor, rich, young, old, health care is a human right? We are the richest country in the history of the world. Do you think we should do what every other major country on earth does?
▶ 1:03:10Mr. Vought: Senator, I think it is important to provide legitimate evidence-based outcomes for people within the health care system and to make sure that we tailor all of the dollars that are spent.
▶ 1:03:21Sen. Sanders: You did not answer my question. Find. My question is a simple question. In america, should we do what every other major country does and say I don't care if you are poor, rich, old, young, health care is a human right? Yes or no?
▶ 1:03:38Mr. Vought: I think the president ran on providing good health care outcomes. That is my view.
▶ 1:03:44Sen. Sanders: You are an advisor to the president. You will be a key advisor if you are approved. Do you think health care is a human right, that every american should be entitled to?
▶ 1:03:54Mr. Vought: I believe the role of omb director is to take with the president has run on, the things the president has as a policy agenda, and to turn that into policy, to implement that. To the extent he has run on lower prescription drugs, that is a priority of the administration.
▶ 1:04:13Sen. Sanders: Thank you. The president in the past, I don't know about recently, has indicated he would maybe do what president biden did, stand up to big pharma. We are paying now in some cases 10 times more, as you know, for the same exact drug that other countries are paying. Will you advise the president to take on big pharma and have americans not pay a nickel more than other countries for prescription health? Will you advise him to do that?
▶ 1:04:42Mr. Vought: The president has not made an announcement since he has been in office but he ran on this issue and there was a speech with regard to making sure we were getting the same types of arrangements that the other countries where given the amount we were investing in it. But he also wants to do it in a careful way so we are not ruining the phenomenon and the industry that allows us to have lifesaving, disease halting drugs.
▶ 1:05:11Sen. Sanders: I get it. We want innovation. But will you maintain what we fought hard to do and what every other country doesn't have medicare negotiate scripted drug prices with the industry?
▶ 1:05:22Mr. Vought: I am not here to get in front of the president on any of his policies other than to say this is a priority of his and I think your question reflects it as a priority of his.
▶ 1:05:32Chair Graham: Thank you, senator sanders. Senator cornyn.
▶ 1:05:36Sen. Cornyn: Mr. vought, thank you for your willingness to serve the country again and to you and your family. This job comes with more than its fair share of abuse that you receive, but I believe this is a once in a generation opportunity to do what we need to do to get our spending in check and to make sure that we do what you said I think at the beginning of your testimony, which is the
▶ 1:06:09Sen. Cornyn: Most important thing federal government does, provide for the security and safety of the american people. You remember 15 years ago admiral mullen, chairman of the choi juice of staff -- joint chiefs of staff, said the biggest threat was our debt.
▶ 1:06:27Sen. Cornyn: When he said that, I thought that was an unusual thing to say but if you think of it as a prediction, it has literally become true because now we spend more money on interest on the national debt than we do on defense. That is a recipe for disaster in what I think is the most dangerous world we have seen since world war ii. But let me take you back to the issue of inflation.
▶ 1:06:56Sen. Cornyn: We have just come off of a forty-year high inflation rate for the american people, which is sort of a silent tax which degrades the standard of living for all americans. How is inflation related to government spending?
▶ 1:07:12Mr. Vought: Thank you, senator. This is an important moment in historic forever country to get a handle on our debt and deficits. I believe spending is a big driver of inflation. I think you saw that under the biden administration when they put forward some of the covid packages early in his administration. All of a sudden, we had an inflation problem. I predicted it at the time. Larry summers on the democrat side predicted it at the time.
▶ 1:07:43Mr. Vought: And we saw something that the so-called experts told us we would never see again, which is inflation at the levels the american people could not absorb, nor should they ever be expected to. I think it is both an energy phenomenon, a regulatory phenomenon, and a spending component.
▶ 1:07:59Sen. Cornyn: I think milton friedman would agree on the spending side. The federal government spends roughly $6.75 trillion at the present time. I don't of us can really get our brain around how much money that is. It is a lot of money.
▶ 1:08:19Sen. Cornyn: But we also took in last year about $4.5 trillion in revenue, so there is a significant gap between what the federal government spends and what the federal government gets in terms of revenue. Do you think that is sustainable?
▶ 1:08:36Mr. Vought: No, sir, it is not. We have to get spending under control. We have seen revenues hovering about where they have been historically as a percentage of gdp. As a result, the problem is primarily on the spending side, and that is what you have seen in the first term the president put forward substantial number of savings and reforms to get a handle on the spending component of the federal budget.
▶ 1:09:01Sen. Cornyn: Right now, the congress appropriates roughly 20% of the money the federal government spends. The rest of it is mandatory spending and spent under the tax code as senator johnson pointed out. I don't know how we are ever going to balance the budget just looking at 28% of what the federal government spends.
▶ 1:09:23Sen. Cornyn: That is not to say we should not look at it, but do you agree with me that we need to look at mandatory spending programs? I understand medicare and social security and bipartisan support are unlikely to be the sources of any savings on spending, but we spent I think at last count roughly $700 billion a year on mandatory spending programs that congress turns on. It does not cap.
▶ 1:09:54Sen. Cornyn: It does not have a cost of living index. It is just based on demand that they grow it 6% to 8%. Dusek we need to look at non-social security, non-medicare spending to find savings?
▶ 1:10:07Mr. Vought: Yes, senator. That is why there was a number of substantial savings and reforms that were consistent with the president's protection of social security and medicare that still allowed us to get to balance the budget we last set up in the first term.
▶ 1:10:23Mr. Vought: The president's approach has been to get after the bureaucracy that is largely wasting money and be able to get people back to work with things like welfare reform and other reforms we have seen historically work to get better labor force participation and a better economy.
▶ 1:10:39Sen. Cornyn: Thank you.
▶ 1:10:40Chair Graham: Senator warner.
▶ 1:10:42Sen. Warner: Thank you, Mr. chairman. Mr. vought, good to see you. These are viewed as sort of a job interview. I am curious about your background. A dozen years on the hill. Government bureaucrat. Right wing think tank. Seems to me you are a total product of what many people call the swamp.
▶ 1:11:11Sen. Warner: I am not sure how that swamp expertise is going to help you in this job. I am a little different than most folks. I actually ran a business, payroll. You have no private sector experience. I looked at what you said, just a management standpoint. It seems like what you want to do is how many federal workers can you get to quit? How many federal offices can you go out and relocate?
▶ 1:11:39Sen. Warner: I have to tell you, your words, we want the bureaucrats to be dramatically affected because they are increasingly viewed as -- we want to put them in trauma. You want to be omb and help oversee this workforce and you want to put the workforce in trauma? That would be management malpractice. I appreciate the fact of what you did in the past.
▶ 1:12:11Sen. Warner: 2019, you helped move the blm out. 170% increase in vacancies. Gao, the folks supposed to be independent, said that move dramatically impaired its ability to serve the american people. Another thing some of us pointed out, last time you said let's move the department of agriculture at. Two euros.
▶ 1:12:40Sen. Warner: Led to 40% and 60% reduction in effectiveness. At least I give you credit for putting it down in writing. Project 2025. That handbook. Sir, I do appreciate the fact that one of the things you said is you think it is important for the federal government to keep our nation safe. Probably the most important thing I have done in this job is when I worked with the intelligence committee. The chair and vice chair now.
▶ 1:13:11Sen. Warner: We had thousands of men and women work in the intelligence committee without a lot of fanfare. You realize of course I hope that to become a cia agent it takes about a year. Are you aware of that?
▶ 1:13:25Mr. Vought: Yes, senator.
▶ 1:13:27Sen. Warner: So in your project 2025 madness, you put forward the idea that somehow breaking up the cia and moving it around the country would make our nation more safe. Do you not understand, sir, that if president trump by having the intelligence community close to him, to have ability of.
▶ 1:13:51Sen. Warner: The nsa, cia and the pentagon, fbi in this region, your idea on this ideological jihad to break up the intelligence community's effectiveness?
▶ 1:14:06Sen. Warner: I would ask you, sir, can you show any evidence that somehow we would make our nation safer if you put your political litmus test and this idea of bringing trauma to the federal workforce bycommunity, which has been supported on a bipartisan basis year-in and year-out and somehow breaking it up and spreading it hither and yon?
▶ 1:14:34Sen. Warner: Just for political purpose? How does that make our nation safer?
▶ 1:14:39Mr. Vought: I never propose that and the president has disassociated himself from project 2020 five. It is a mischaracterization.
▶ 1:14:49Sen. Warner: We are on record. You're going to commit to make sure I would argue have to make a business case before you start breaking up. I'm all for effectiveness. Are you willing to commit not to undermine our national intelligence community by arbitrarily trying to break them up and spread them around just because you want to blow up the federal workforce in this region?
▶ 1:15:13Mr. Vought: There is no policy processed the trump administration has done that is producing arbitrary results. Then we speak to the question you raised with regard to my comments about the bureaucracy. Specifically were in reference to the weaponize bureaucracy we have seen.
▶ 1:15:30Sen. Warner: You are the arbiter of who is weaponized and who is not? I hope my colleagues -- I think you're completely responsible actions on so-called schedule f. We put the civil service in place but I urge you, sir, if you become in this position, think long and hard about the men and women of the national security and the intelligence community before you go on some clinical jihad of trying to
▶ 1:16:01Sen. Warner: Score points by simply trying to break up in opposite -- operation functions better because of their close collaboration. Your comments about the federal workforce I find disqualifying on its basis. Thank you, Mr. chairman.
▶ 1:16:16Chair Graham: Senator kennedy.
▶ 1:16:20Sen. Kennedy: Thank you, Mr. chairman. Mr. vought, welcome. In my judgment, I do not know a single person in washington or outside washington who knows more about the federal budget than you do.
▶ 1:16:49Sen. Kennedy: I used to read your suggestions during president trump's first term, many of which congress ignored. We should not have. I am delighted that the president picked you.
▶ 1:17:10Sen. Kennedy: I have read that since 2019, the population of america has increased 2% and our spending has increased 55% under president biden. I wish him well.
▶ 1:17:33Sen. Kennedy: If we had discovered life on mars, he would have sent it money. Is that sustainable?
▶ 1:17:44Mr. Vought: It is totally unsustainable. The problem is that you go on these trajectories we are currently on and you don't know when you are going to get to the point of which you have some major, major problems as an economy, as a country. We know that historically.
▶ 1:18:05Sen. Kennedy: I hope you will start with the low hanging fruit. There is a lot. When we sent out stimulus checks to save our economy, $1.6 billion went to dead people. The checks were cashed. Obviously, fraud.
▶ 1:18:27Sen. Kennedy: Omb has s -- estimated fiscal year 2023 we sent out $1.3 billion of checks to dead people, which were cashed. Obviously, fraud. When you die in america, you are name is sent to the social security administration. As you know, you become part of the master death file.
▶ 1:18:53Sen. Kennedy: Senator carper and I discovered that social security would not share that information with any other department of government, so we passed a bill saying you have to share it with treasury and other people who write checks so we will stop paying dead people. Duh. We got pushed back, believe it or not, on the bill. We had to agree to a trial period and that trial period end s in 2026.
▶ 1:19:23Sen. Kennedy: Will you help us make that program permanent so we can stop paying dead people?
▶ 1:19:27Mr. Vought: Yes, senator.
▶ 1:19:30Sen. Kennedy: You served in washington for years. You are going to be called -- you're going to be challenging the status quo. You are going to be called crazy. Many people also called noah crazy and then the rains came and all the fact checkers died.
▶ 1:19:59Sen. Kennedy: [laughter] you have to persevere. Now, I am asking you -- I am not asking you to get ahead of president trump, but if you working for a day, tell me -- if you were king for a day, tell me how you would save money in the federal budget without impacting the american people.
▶ 1:20:24Mr. Vought: I think it is the strategy that we had in the first term, which is to go really and take a very close look at the agencies that are spending and wasting money. And I believe weaponized at times against the american people. When they put a 77-year-old navy veteran in jail, joe robertson, for 18 months for building four ponds on his ranch to be compared -- prepared for wildfires, that is the epa. I think we have to look at that.
▶ 1:20:54Mr. Vought: We have to look at the agencies that congress has a vote on every single year for the appropriations process. Then I think we need to go after the mandatory programs that senator cornyn mentioned that are keeping people out of the workforce because they have become not just your social safety net, but they become a benefit hammock. Increasingly so in the aftermath of covid as many of these policies were impacting people's decisions to go back into the workforce.
▶ 1:21:20Mr. Vought: I believe -- because we have budgets along these lines, you can get sizable levels of savings and reforms that can lead to a balanced budget and get us back headed in a fiscal trajectory not only that we would be proud of, but we could say this is going to keep us from fiscal ruin.
▶ 1:21:40Sen. Kennedy: My time has expired. Ella carter, do you have anything you would like to add? Ok. Now is your shot. Thank you, Mr. vought. Congratulations.
▶ 1:21:54Chair Graham: Good call there, young lady. [laughter] apparently, we are going to mars and I'm going to reserve whether or not I want to help them. Maybe we do if we find them out there. Anyway, as to dead people, I don't want to give them checks and they should not vote, either.
▶ 1:22:13Senator Kaine. Sen. Kaine: I want to go back to the comment that senator warner read to you. There is 140,000 federal employees in virginia and you gave a speech that got a lot of attention when you said we want bureaucrats to be dramatically affected when they wake up in the morning, we want them to not want to go to work because they are increasingly viewed as the villains.
▶ 1:22:39Senator Kaine. Sen. Kaine: I pay attention to the way people say things because there is a million ways you can make a plan -- point. The way you choose to make a point has you something about the person. I had an old testament reference and I will go to a new testament reference, "from the fullness of the heart, the mouth speaks." we want people to be traumatized. We want people to be traumatized. A million people in this room have given a speech. We want to do with the deficit.
▶ 1:23:10Senator Kaine. Sen. Kaine: But I have not heard anybody give a gleeful speech about traumatizing the federal workforce. You don't want federal air traffic controllers going to the airport traumatized, do you?
▶ 1:23:20Mr. Vought: Know, senator.
▶ 1:23:24Sen. Kaine: You don't want the people to go to work traumatized, do you? You don't want the people interdicting drugs at the border, that with them going to work traumatized, do you? And you don't want people who are working for you at the omb, who many people think, well, they are in the white house -- you don't want them traumatized, do you?
▶ 1:23:43Mr. Vought: No, a senator, thank you for expanding on that.
▶ 1:23:48Sen. Kaine: I felt like I had to because I have 140,000 people and most of them have families and they are trying to do good job. Was your comment about people being traumatized just focused on the federal workforce or was it more broadly about state employees and local government employees, too?
▶ 1:24:04Mr. Vought: It was about the weaponize bureaucracy --
▶ 1:24:09Sen. Kaine: You are talking but the federal were -- workforce.
▶ 1:24:13Mr. Vought: My experience --
▶ 1:24:17Sen. Kaine: At the federal level. You're not talking about state?
▶ 1:24:19Mr. Vought: I'm no expense about the state.
▶ 1:24:23Sen. Kaine: You are not talking about local employees? Your mother was a public school teacher? You want the federal workforce to be traumatized. I like a lot of presidents. I am a lincoln fan. Are you? Lincoln spoke to a nation at war and he said, with malice towards none and charity towards all. And he was saying that to the north and the south.
▶ 1:24:53Sen. Kaine: He did not say, we want you to be traumatized. He was a bridge builder. And a unifier. That is what public servants should be. They should not gleefully be wishing trauma on people who are trying to serve their fellow man. I want to get to what could be weaponize. You are the president of the center for renewing america and the think tank produced a 2023 budget proposal calling a commitment to end woke and weaponized government. Do you remember that?
▶ 1:25:22Sen. Kaine: That is the correct title? Mr. vought: yes.
▶ 1:25:28Sen. Kaine: Is 104 pages. It proposes deep cuts to the snap program. Is providing nutrition woke in weaponize?
▶ 1:25:39Mr. Vought: I am here on behalf of --.
▶ 1:25:44Sen. Kaine: You said you did that. I want to know what is woke and weaponized about providing food assistance to low income kids?
▶ 1:25:50Mr. Vought: Again, I'm not here on behalf of my center.
▶ 1:25:56Sen. Kaine: But this is your work product. You can say it is not woken weaponized or you can tell me why it is woke and weaponize. I don't think snap programs are weaponized. Do you agree with me?
▶ 1:26:08Mr. Vought: When we refer to the federal government being weaponize, we are referring to bureaucracies.
▶ 1:26:15Sen. Kaine: So you proposed to cut snap but you are not saying it is woke?
▶ 1:26:20Mr. Vought: Not going to answer questions about the center.
▶ 1:26:23Sen. Kaine: You propose deep cuts to pell grants. Is helping kids pay for college and helping their families, is that woken weaponized?
▶ 1:26:30Mr. Vought: I'm not here to defend the center.
▶ 1:26:35Sen. Kaine: I get that. I can understand why. You proposed deep cuts to medicaid for millions of low income families. Why is that woken weaponized? You propose undermining health insurance. Why is that woken weaponized? Eliminating tenant-based rental assistance. Why is that woke and weaponized? Illuminating the low income housing energy assistance program -- eliminating the low income house energy assistance program.
▶ 1:27:03Sen. Kaine: We want to traumatize federal employees and then we want to take all of these programs that help everyday people who are struggling and cut them because they are woke and weaponize. Those are your words, not mine. From the fullness of the heart, them out speaks. I yield back.
▶ 1:27:21Chair Graham: Senator ricketts. Sen. ricketts thank you. My colleague from the has already referenced the spending, roughly $4.4 trillion in 2019 and 6.8 trillion, 6.9 trillion in 2020. He referenced a 55% increase in five years.
▶ 1:27:49Chair Graham: We greatly expanded federal spending. Recklessly expanded it, including a number of areas my colleague from virginia was referencing. Areas were expanded during covid and never brought down to say 2019 levels. That reckless spending has led to four-year high inflation. We have talked about that as well.
▶ 1:28:13Chair Graham: You in your opening remarks remarked how americans are worse off today four years later after joe biden because of his reckless spending, contributed to this inflation. That is not the only thing that contributed to how americans are being hurt by the policies of this biden administration that just left.
▶ 1:28:36Chair Graham: One of the other areas they have been hurt by is the regulation -- you mentioned some of the bureaucracies come out of control, throwing a 77-year-old man in prison for building a pond. If you look over the last four years, the biden administration put in over 100,000 pages of new regulation. 33 feet tall. Taller than a three-story building worth of regulations.
▶ 1:29:05Chair Graham: One study said it was adding $3300 to the cost of every american household. This is kind of like hidden costs that we see on american households. It is also one of the reasons why americans are worse off today than they were four years ago.
▶ 1:29:23Chair Graham: One of the examples of hiding some of these costs was actually in the epa with the tailpipe regulations, a 573 page document. There was one table on costs. One table. What we see from this outgoing administration is hiding the cost from the american people.
▶ 1:29:51Chair Graham: So they don't understand and don't see what their government is trying to do to them, how their government is actually laying on these regulations that harm them. And that is why they feel worse off today than four years ago. If you are confirmed, will you commit you will work with me to help reverse and expose the regulations and how agencies try to hide the cost, try to play around with the numbers?
▶ 1:30:21Chair Graham: The phrase "there are lies, damn lies, and statistics." we need to have a full cost benefit analysis that people understand the trade-offs they are making by having regulation. Will you, if confirmed, commit you will work with us to make sure we fully understand the cost and these agencies will not try to hide the cost of the regulations."
▶ 1:30:45Mr. Vought: Absolutely. This is one of the fundamental apparatuses we need to get back in place that we had first term. If confirmed, it will be one of the earliest projects I'm a part of. Sen. ricketts thank you. Also, I want to switch gears a little as well because another example of how your bureaucracy is failing. As you know, biofuels are important to my state of nebraska. We are an agricultural state.
▶ 1:31:14Mr. Vought: Biofuels are a way for us to be able to help clean up the environment, produce our -- reduce our reliance is on foreign energy, great for farmers and ranchers as well. It also helps save consumers money at the pump. Thervo's are priorities for me and my state.
▶ 1:31:37Mr. Vought: The 2026 rvo's were supposed to be filed november 1, 2020 four, now it looks like it will be december and I'm sure the folks who were in business in the past know that certainly as important for businesses and we are going to be over a year behind. We commit to working with me to help make sure the bureaucracies are following the law and fulfilling their obligations, for example, specifically, to get the rvo's in a timely basis?
▶ 1:32:07Mr. Vought: Yes, senator. Sen. ricketts we must tackle the national debt. We have talked about it already but the chinese communist party is the biggest external threat we face as a nation.
▶ 1:32:24Mr. Vought: How you ensure we are protecting federal dollars and the contracting process to make sure our adversaries and entities that are hostile to us like the chinese communist party are not being subsidized by our american taxpayer dollars and how you advise the administration on that?
▶ 1:32:38Mr. Vought: It will be a priority to our role in advising contractors and the agencies engage with them in the first term we had a lot of work we were doing on behalf of the laws that were passed to make sure what way was not part of getting taxpayer contracts and that will be a trend that we will continue and will be working with you on any new laws that are put forward and looking closely at
▶ 1:33:08Mr. Vought: The statutes already in place. Sen. ricketts I run over my time but you also have very cute daughters and I'm glad they are here today.
▶ 1:33:16Chair Graham: Senator van
▶ 1:33:20Hollen. Sen. Van Hollen: Thank you. Look, we are just a few days into the trump administration and already seeing a huge gap between what candidate trump ran on, which was helping working men and women in this country and what he is focused on, including recently pardoning people who have been convicted of assaulting and bludgeoning police officers.
▶ 1:33:50Hollen. Sen. Van Hollen: Including an executive order that stops ongoing initiatives to reduce the costs of prescription drugs, including as we have heard today, a renewal of a tax plan that disproportionately benefited the very wealthy and the biggest corporations at the expense of other americans.
▶ 1:34:09Hollen. Sen. Van Hollen: As we saw on the dais during the swearing in, the golden age for america will be great for the billionaire tech titans who had seats better than those of the incoming cabinet officers. President trump was very clear that he is going to govern in a way that was different than candidate trump will step you are going to play of your instrumental role in this administration if confirmed.
▶ 1:34:37Hollen. Sen. Van Hollen: I believe the best way to sort of judge or guess what the future looks like in terms of your conduct is to look at the past. In december 2019, I wrote to the gao asking them if omb, you come at the previous trump administration, had violated the act by withholding funds from ukraine.
▶ 1:35:06Hollen. Sen. Van Hollen: And in january, I got the response back and their conclusion was, yes, that you had violated the impoundment control act. I ask you now, the letter I received from gao might be entered into the record.
▶ 1:35:20Chair Graham: Without objection.
▶ 1:35:23Sen. Van Hollen: I listen to your exchange with senator and you had a clear opportunity to say, yes, you will comply with the impoundment control act. I did not hear you say that. Just to give you another chance, will you comply with the control act?
▶ 1:35:42Mr. Vought: The president ran against the control act.
▶ 1:35:46Sen. Van Hollen: I know what the president did. He wants to change lots of things. He can submit legislation to do that. But you are going to be the head of omb and here today at this hearing you're refusing to commit to comply with the control act. Is that right? Are you refusing?
▶ 1:36:06Mr. Vought: Senator, the administration has to go through policy process to understand the legal parameters for operating
▶ 1:36:17In The Ica. Sen. Van Hollen: I'm going to reclaim my time. It seems complying with the current law, even if you disagree with that, would result in a clear answer, yes, I will comply with the current law, including the control act. Let me turn to doge. All of us support greater government is the -- efficiency. I would like to see it in many government agencies, including the pentagon, which is one agency that has continued to fail audits.
▶ 1:36:47In The Ica. Sen. Van Hollen: Elon musk is going to head up doge. What I'm worried about doge's it will not bring efficiency but open the door to political cronyism. My question to you is this, will elon musk and the other folks at doge, will they be required to recuse themselves to making changes to programs in which they are huge beneficiaries?
▶ 1:37:16In The Ica. Sen. Van Hollen: I think as you know, elon musk has lots of interest in government actions I government contracts. Will those members have to recuse themselves where they have a clear conflict of interest?
▶ 1:37:31Mr. Vought: This administration is the highest ethical standards. Anyone as a federal employee will be going through the usual ethics process. That is expected and required for all employees of the federal government.
▶ 1:37:43Sen. Van Hollen: So they will be. Good. I went to pick up on the quote senator and senator warner mentioned about traumatically inflicting trauma on federal employees. It is an opportunity for you to retract that statement and apologize to those civil servants. Do you want to use this opportunity to do that?
▶ 1:38:08Mr. Vought: I was referring specifically to weaponized bureaucracies that are aimed against the american people themselves and the president that was their boss, the person that was put in charge.
▶ 1:38:23Sen. Van Hollen: I have looked at the transcript. It was much broader than that. It was not just focused on those individuals. I will say on schedule f, and this is my last question, because there are lots of questions those will be used to merit civil service into one based on political cronyism.
▶ 1:38:46Sen. Van Hollen: If you are successful at going through with schedule f and you decided to fire an individual, would they continue to have the due process rights that merit-based civil servants have?
▶ 1:38:59Mr. Vought: Schedule f is not a tool to fire individuals, it is something -- it is so the president adds people who are policy-based, confidential staffers that are still career, still --.
▶ 1:39:18Sen. Van Hollen: My question is, if you choose to fire somebody or you -- will they have the due process rights that currently apply to merit-based civil servants to avoid having them fired for political reasons?
▶ 1:39:31Mr. Vought: Schedule f is meant to ensure the administration for the president has people working for him that are actually going to do the policies that he ran on, that he has articulated. We think that is an important fundamental principle and does not mean we have any intent to use that to fire career civil servants. I worked -- I value the work that they do.
▶ 1:39:56Mr. Vought: I hope the same people that -- I had one person that was there from jimmy carter. I had a person there from lbj. I love the fact that the career individuals from omb bring with them that expertise to be able to advise us on our policy. It is not a desire to just fire anyone that has a classification.
▶ 1:40:21Sen. Van Hollen: Mr. chairman, I ask simply whether those individuals were fired if they would have any due process rights as they currently have in a merit-based civil service. The answer -- I was not given an answer.
▶ 1:40:33Chair Graham: As I understood it, you're not firing anybody you're just saying if you're going to be in this job, you need to be living in the direction --.
▶ 1:40:44Sen. Van Hollen: But if you do fire someone in one of these jobs come does that person have any due process rights?
▶ 1:40:50Chair Graham: I don't think there's a right to a particular job in the government.
▶ 1:40:57Sen. Van Hollen: There is a right to not be filed for political reasons. >> you have two interviews with me so double bonus year. You did a great job in the homeland security committee was to appreciate your transparency, or answers. I'll start where I ended in that session which is, thank you. Thank you for your willingness to serve, for your willingness to put yourself through this process. Thank you for the great thought and intellect that you're going to bring to this job.
▶ 1:41:26Sen. Van Hollen: Since this is a meeting where we should be questioning you and not just giving you opinions that you responded to, I will give you some quick 10 questions. Is that ok? There has been a lot of comments, especially from the ranking member about betraying working americans.
▶ 1:41:43Sen. Van Hollen: Let me ask a question, when the government forgives the debt of people who paid -- took out a loan for college debt, does that help working americans like my technicians, my sales consultants, my drivers, my carwash guys who did not go to college? Does it help them when student debt is illegally forgiven?
▶ 1:42:06Mr. Vought: It doesn't. >> when you have insane government spending that unleashes generationally high inflation that makes going to taco bell a luxury, does that help working class americans?
▶ 1:42:20Mr. Vought: It doesn't.
▶ 1:42:24Sen. Moreno: When you spend hundreds of billions of dollars to fight endless wars and foreign countries, does that help working americans?
▶ 1:42:36Mr. Vought: No.
▶ 1:42:38Sen. Moreno: When you have policies that all have voted for come every single one of them voted for electric vehicle subsidies so that when I had a rolls-royce dealership, a customer can come in and lease a $515,000 rolls-royce, fully electric, and get a check for $7,500 from the U.S. government. Does that help working class americans?
▶ 1:43:08Mr. Vought: No.
▶ 1:43:11Sen. Moreno: I put on the record come every single one of my colleagues on the democrat side voted for just such a subsidy. When you house illegals in this country, people who are not invited here like I was, let my family was, we you house them in luxury hotels at a cost of $6,000 per month per room, does that help working class americans?
▶ 1:43:33Mr. Vought: No.
▶ 1:43:35Sen. Moreno: When you give health care to those very illegals when americans don't have the health care they need, does that help working class americans?
▶ 1:43:43Mr. Vought: No.
▶ 1:43:47Sen. Moreno: When you provide food to illegals -- in some cases when they don't like the food, you give them $1000 prepaid credit cards -- does that help working class american citizens?
▶ 1:43:57Mr. Vought: No, sir.
▶ 1:44:01Sen. Moreno: When you give sex change operations, to illegals, does that help americans? Mr. vought: no.
▶ 1:44:10Sen. Moreno: Wen yu offer -- wen yu offer dei classes, does that help working class americans?
▶ 1:44:18Mr. Vought: No.
▶ 1:44:21Sen. Moreno: When you fight immigrants from foreign countries to the united states on private jets, does that help working class americans?
▶ 1:44:30Mr. Vought: No.
▶ 1:44:34Sen. Moreno: Last question. Why do you think hourly wages for working-class americans declined under the policies of joe biden and democrat control of congress and yet when president trump was in the white house hourly wages actually went up for the first time in a generation?
▶ 1:44:55Mr. Vought: Thank you for the question. I think it is because we had an administration that was doing everything it can to at least the american economy, have cheap energy, to be able to have a regulatory sector that was not adding burdens, that was not worth it from a cost-benefit perspective, and free the american people and entrepreneurs to take risk and higher people and increase salaries.
▶ 1:45:22Mr. Vought: I think you get that with the policies that the president has run on. I think we will see that in a student amount of time.
▶ 1:45:29Sen. Moreno: If you were to say who betrayed working-class americans, was a joe biden in the democrats or president trump?
▶ 1:45:35Mr. Vought: It certainly was not president trump.
▶ 1:45:38Chair Graham: Senator lujan.
▶ 1:45:41Sen. Lujan: Thank you very much. You authored sections of project 2025 that sets forth a blueprint for dangerous plans under this new administration. You'll will have an enormous responsibility at omb and given your record, I have serious questions about whether you can be trusted to carry out the law and safeguard programs that many americans rely on like medicare and medicaid, social security, and many more.
▶ 1:46:13Sen. Lujan: You also authored this 2023 budget proposal at a foundation I believe that you helped to found over at the center for renewing americans. Is that correct?
▶ 1:46:26Mr. Vought: I did.
▶ 1:46:30Sen. Lujan: And you stand by your name?
▶ 1:46:32Mr. Vought: I'm not here to talk about the proposals.
▶ 1:46:37Sen. Lujan: My question is simple. You stand by your name?
▶ 1:46:39Mr. Vought: I stem
▶ 1:46:42Mr. Vought: I steabnd by my name.
▶ 1:46:45Sen. Lujan: You signed this. This is your signature?
▶ 1:46:48Mr. Vought: Yes, sir. Sen.
▶ 1:46:53Lujan: In 2021, what was the reason for founding this center?
▶ 1:46:58Mr. Vought: We wanted to continue to work on policies that were based on principles of president trump running for office in his first term and we wanted to make sure the political class here, the agenda setting functions were not going to ignore those perspectives. I'm not here behalf of the center.
▶ 1:47:26Mr. Vought: I'm here on behalf of the president's policies that ran on.
▶ 1:47:32Sen. Lujan: I asked to submit this into the record. Mr. vought, you know how many families receive assistance through the low income energy assistance program?
▶ 1:47:39Mr. Vought: Not off the top of my head.
▶ 1:47:44Sen. Lujan: Would it surprise you if it was estimated 5.9 million families according to the national consumer law center?
▶ 1:47:48Mr. Vought: It would not.
▶ 1:47:51Sen. Lujan: Your 2023 budget for scenting for renewal america proposed eliminating light heat finding entirely which would force millions of americans to see skyrocketing energy costs, especially this week as temperatures are dipping below zero across the country. Those who represent states, many of our constituents depend on these programs. When it gets cold. Mr. vought, the author chapter two, project 2025 titled executive office of the president of the united states, correct?
▶ 1:48:20Mr. Vought: Yes, sir. Sen.
▶ 1:48:23Lujan: I asked unanimous consent to enter chapter two into the record. In this chapter, wrote the trump administration must reaffirm its commitment to "preventing drug use before it starts, providing treatment that leads to long-term recovery." do you know that medicaid is the largest payer for substance use disorder services in the united states?
▶ 1:48:45Mr. Vought: Yes, senator.
▶ 1:48:48Sen. Lujan: About 38% of the folks in this space depend on that program but in the budget from your group the center for renewing america, include cuts to medicaid a total of $2.3 trillion of cuts over 10 years. On april 8, 2024, tweeted "defending life is the most important thing to me." does that sound correct?
▶ 1:49:11Mr. Vought: On behalf of the administration, I will be putting in place the president's views on life and abortion.
▶ 1:49:20Sen. Lujan: Do you know what roughly percentage of american babies are born with medicaid coverage every year? About 41%. With that surprise you? Mr.
▶ 1:49:30Vought: It would not.
▶ 1:49:33Sen. Lujan: You call to illuminate the federal matching percentage for states, eliminating crucial investments that will put the health care pregnant mothers in jeopardy. Your budget is as it would cut over $650 billion from that program alone. Do you know that head start promotes school readiness for children from birth to age five?
▶ 1:49:53Mr. Vought: Yes.
▶ 1:49:56Sen. Lujan: Do you know how many children were served by head start in fy 2023? Over 770,000 children. Your budget proposes a 50% funding reduction for head start programs. In your budget come you included a statement that said "head start participants have worse behavior and academic outcomes in children who do not enroll in the program." two members of this committee are headstart graduates, including myself. Does that surprise you?
▶ 1:50:26Mr. Vought: No. It does not surprise me.
▶ 1:50:32Sen. Lujan: Would you like to apologize about that statement?
▶ 1:50:36Mr. Vought: I was not referring to anyone in particular. We were looking at the program, the reforms that were a part of that proposal and that proposal is not an administration document. I'm not here to defendant.
▶ 1:50:53Sen. Lujan: Mr. chairman, could I add to the record the document from the national headstart alliance that fined the event is headstart kids?
▶ 1:50:59Chair Graham: Absolutely.
▶ 1:51:04Sen. Lujan: Mr. chairman, one last question on native american programs around safety. Mr. vought, I assume you support making american community safer?
▶ 1:51:11Mr. Vought: Yes.
▶ 1:51:14Sen. Lujan: Does this include native american? Do you plan to defund tribal police again as you did under your first tenure and omb?
▶ 1:51:23Mr. Vought: We have not begun the budget process. I'm not confirmed and want to be able to comment on what a future budget where we don't have -- the president has agreed to what would look like at this point.
▶ 1:51:34Senator Lujan: You are not willing to say no today?
▶ 1:51:36Mr. Vought: I'm not willing to comment on any programs that have not been articulated as part of the budget process.
▶ 1:51:43Sen. Lujan: I just hope in this case when we talk about border security, safety of our communities, bipartisan we worked on several of these committees to improve law and order, support for the bureau of indian affairs would native american police officers. This is an area where there is bipartisan support to protect these programs and hope we can continue to do that. I yelled.
▶ 1:52:03Chair Graham: Senator scott.
▶ 1:52:09Sen. Scott: You did a great job under the first administration and I know you're going to do a great job under this administration. I look forward to working with you. We have seen under the biden administration the last four years, added $8 trillion to the national debt, increased federal spending by 53%, population growth was 2%.
▶ 1:52:31Sen. Scott: We can't continue down this path for above pre-pandemic levels in the past four years, there has been any serious discussion on how to control spending or reduce 36 trillion dollars in debt. It is crazy where the debt is. Can you talk about this threat to our economy and what we are leaving to our children if we don't invest?
▶ 1:52:51Mr. Vought: We are currently leaving them a legacy of debt and higher taxes if we don't deal with the fact the country we are spending too much and that is one of the reasons we have consistently in the first term put forward budgets that would address the fiscal situation, have commonsense reforms, savings, get a handle on the agencies that we think are wasting taxpayer dollars. And also to keep the economy growing.
▶ 1:53:20Mr. Vought: That is a part of what is necessary to balance the books. You also have to have a dynamic account where people bring revenues in. That is something that is going to be very important to this administration.
▶ 1:53:32Sen. Scott: I went to a drive-through restaurant the other day and one of the lady said to me, she said that she moved to florida when I was governor because she thought she could get a job and she clearly did. We added 1.7 million jobs. She said the last four years with the inflation, she is finding it very difficult to survive. She has two little kids. What are some of the policies that could be implemented, you haven't done this yet, with some of the ideas president trump could implement to start reducing inflation?
▶ 1:54:02Mr. Vought: We are clearly going to address the spending side. The president has instituted and created doge in addition to omb. He has already put out an eo to unleash american energy and directing all the agencies to be trying to do everything they can to get permits going, to be able to get regulations that are binding. The pursuit of an american energy.
▶ 1:54:29Mr. Vought: And in the deregulatory process of getting that back up and running. The president has given us a new goal most -- a new goal. We think we can hit it. We overshot the first goal and we fully intend to do our best to hit that goal. But those are all things that are going to be impacting the bottom line, the pocketbook of the person that moved to florida for that precise reason.
▶ 1:54:53Sen. Scott: If we don't -- you have seen senator ron johnson's work he has put out that how much the budget has grown. If you look inflation-adjusted since clinton and after obama, it is staggering how much it has grown. What is the chance we will see a significant reduction in interest rates?
▶ 1:55:22Sen. Scott: What is the chance we will see inflation come under control if we don't get this budget down?
▶ 1:55:25Mr. Vought: I think those two come together. You have to tackle your budget and spending to be able to have us shot at taming inflation, about having interest rates that come down. Obviously, when we left office, interest rates were nowhere near where they are. The debt -- we spent $350 billion in interest payments last year that I was there. We are up to $900 billion in interest payments beyond what we spent on defense. This is the wrong trajectory.
▶ 1:55:56Mr. Vought: We fully intend him if confirmed, for me to have a role in changing that course.
▶ 1:56:02Sen. Scott: This is not the easiest job. Why do you want to do this? It is work to try to eliminate the cruel inflation, the impt on people's inability to buy a house because interest rates and things like that. Why would you want to do this?
▶ 1:56:18Mr. Vought: I think I bring particular expertise having done the job before, that I want to be able to hit the ground running. It is rare you have a chance to do a job that are after thinking about it for four years. I am very thankful the president has given me this opportunity and I hope I get through as a confirmed appointee.
▶ 1:56:40Sen. Scott: Thank you, Mr. chair.
▶ 1:56:41Chair Graham: Senator padilla.
▶ 1:56:44Sen. Padilla: Thank you. I can't help but notice how many times I have heard throughout the hearing today your argument that the empowerment control act is unconstitutional.
▶ 1:57:00Sen. Padilla: The fact that the incoming general counsel at omb, along with you in your final days of the first trump administration, specifically requested the legislative adjustments to the empowerment control act. What that tells me is that you do in fact understand the constitutionality of this law as not just currently on the books, but upheld by the courts.
▶ 1:57:35Sen. Padilla: In your testimony here today and threw how you served in the first trump administration, it also strikes me you come across as someone who thinks they know better than congress, better than this committee. And at times, even better than the president during the first trump administration. You testified last week you've been thinking about returning to the omb for the last four years.
▶ 1:58:01Sen. Padilla: I can only hope and pray that should you be confirmed that you would uphold the constitution above all else. I normally think folks willing to put themselves out for position in public service -- thank folks willing to put themselves out for public position because I know it is not easy. Senator lujan raised your contributions to project 2025.
▶ 1:58:30Sen. Padilla: In project 2025, write the omb director should be "aggressive and willing tool apportionment on behalf of the president's agenda" and "defend against the attacks from congress." it is particularly striking that there are so many members of this committee testing anger, anxious, ready to vote for your confirmation -- that seem eager,
▶ 1:59:01Sen. Padilla: Anxious, ready to vote for your confirmation when there is a disregard for congress's appropriation authority. Frankly, Mr. chairman, you're one of the appropriators. I wish you would join us and try to drive home this point because it is setting the stage for how we will be working together for the next four years.
▶ 1:59:19Sen. Padilla: I would like to take this opportunity to echo senator peters who raised specific concern during your hearing in the homeland security committee last week outlining the fact your record is particularly concerning for disaster impacted states. Given your previous unlawful actions to politicize, withhold, and slowed the distribution of disaster or even foreign need.
▶ 1:59:49Sen. Padilla: My question to you is this, if confirmed, will you or will you not politicize disaster funding and denied funds provided by congress for american families and businesses that have been devastated by natural disasters?
▶ 2:00:05Mr. Vought: I would not politicize the dispersing of federal funds in any capacity.
▶ 2:00:12Sen. Padilla: That is great to hear because you say you're going to implement the president's agenda. I've been paying close attention to his remarks as the outset of the devastating fires in california. I would like to ask you, Mr. vought, we commit to getting congressionally appropriated funding out to californians devastated by these fires as quickly as possible?
▶ 2:00:40Mr. Vought: Senator, the president has always been a firm distributor of federal resources to areas that need disaster money. I don't expect that to change. And that has characterized my time that would be the first time around to your earlier question, I do support and will take an oath to uphold the constitution. That will continue if confirmed in this capacity.
▶ 2:01:06Sen. Padilla: Two comments for the record. Glad you will uphold the constitution because the constitution and the law is clear as it pertains to the empowerment control act --impound control act, unlike some of your clearly understood efforts in the first term, I hope you don't go back to those that faith practices and efforts in the second term.
▶ 2:01:32Sen. Padilla: And your suggestion you are not going to politicize disbursement of funds, will get them out the door as quickly as possible come again, I would appreciate you living up to that commitment you stated here today because I continue to hear comments from president trump, from leaders -- republican leaders in congress on both sides of the capitol, about attaching disaster funding to debt limit or disaster
▶ 2:02:03Sen. Padilla: Attached -- attaching disaster funds to other things such as textbooks for billionaires whether it is some unrelated issue in california as it pertains to federal land management or anything else. Thank you for your comments on the record. I look forward to holding you to them.
▶ 2:02:20Chair Graham: Senator marshall.
▶ 2:02:24Sen. Marshall: Thank you, Mr. chairman. Welcome, Mr. vought. I think I want to speak today in terms of hard-working families in kansas. The average salary back home for a hard-working kansan is about $50,000 a year. Over the last four years, we have seen, if inflation of 20%. So that $50,000 only really could purchase about $40,000 worth of goods and services.
▶ 2:02:52Sen. Marshall: Almost $1000 a month hit to the average kansan. When we think about the trump tax cuts, those put $1000 a month back into the pockets of kansans. Overall, if this trump tax cuts goes away, it will cost americans about $4.3 trillion over 10 years. Middle america is going to get hit with about 60% of that. Again, $1000 a month.
▶ 2:03:23Sen. Marshall: If those tax cuts go away, it is going to impact hard-working kansans to the tune of $1000 a month. I just want you to comment a second on how big of a priority getting these tax cuts made permanent would be and how it would impact our economy and those hard-working kansans back home.
▶ 2:03:43Mr. Vought: I think it would devastate their bottom line in having to face a massive tax increase that they are not prepared for. Nor should they. I think there should be, and the president has run on this, an extension of the tax cuts and some of the other provisions he has proposed on the campaign trail. We have to go after this spending. We have to go after and ensuring we have were producing as much american energy as we possibly can.
▶ 2:04:15Mr. Vought: And we have got to get beyond the regulatory burden that we have put on the american people. I think those are all policies that you will see, if confirmed, be prioritized in this role.
▶ 2:04:28Sen. Marshall: 's talk a little bit about budget. Folks back home, they are expected to balance their check books, pay off their credit card debt. Unfortunately, their credit cards are matched out. It is tough times, no doubt about it. But congress seems to not care about a budget. If congress would go to a zero-based budgeting reform, working with your office, what could be the impact of that?
▶ 2:04:56Sen. Marshall: I mean zero-based budgeting even grants. We make grants on five-year terms, typically, but if we would just start looking at those grants -- once going out of the country. What impact would zero-based budgeting have toward getting to a balanced budget?
▶ 2:05:11Mr. Vought: The concepts of zero-based budgeting as you get a sense of what are the things that you haven't taken a look at in a long time. And starting from the ground up -- it doesn't mean you're not going to find that, it just means that you take an approach to looking at each agency spent and where the big dollars are coming from. I think every family does that in america.
▶ 2:05:34Mr. Vought: They look at what is the amount they're going to bring in from a paycheck and then they look at their spending and say, what are they big pockets of discretionary funding that they could do without? That is what I think budgeting is about. I think it is important not to lose that level of common sense that comes from a family balancing their own books.
▶ 2:05:55Sen. Marshall: Ok. Just to give you a little time here, discuss inflation in general most of you made the comment earlier that federal borrowing causes inflation, and that is pretty intuitive to some of us. But I want you to take that a little bit and explain again to the folks back home, and the federal government is borrowing money, spending more than they have, how does that lead to inflation?
▶ 2:06:21Mr. Vought: You certainly have more money in the system coming from federal dollars that are providing competition and the ability to have prices go up as a result of that. Then you have the component to which who is buying much of that debt. Much of that debt is being bought by the federal reserve that is printing money to buy that debt.
▶ 2:06:46Sen. Marshall: And of course that is going to impact interest rates as well. So one of the goals would be to get interest rates down. What is it going to take for interest rates to meaningfully come down, not just because of what the fed is doing?
▶ 2:07:00Mr. Vought: It will require us to get a handle on our spending to begin to the deficits that are much more manageable.
▶ 2:07:10Chair Graham: Senator whitehouse.
▶ 2:07:14Sen. Whitehouse: Look under the seat recently occupied by myself. I'm delighted to see you there and look forward to working with you.
▶ 2:07:24Chair Graham: Me, too.
▶ 2:07:27Sen. Whitehouse: Mr. vought, the backdrop to the conversation we are having here is indicated by this graph which shows from 1980 to 2020 how income has grown in the united states. The bottom line showing essentially no income growth, bottom 20% of income earners. As you can see, their household income has stayed essentially.
▶ 2:08:00Sen. Whitehouse: Flat. . The second line outcome of this lower one, is how the top 1% of income earners have done. They are up 600% nearly compared to near 0% for the working people in the lowest 20%. If you look at the top most line that is up more than 800%, that is the top .01%.
▶ 2:08:33Sen. Whitehouse: What worries me as we go into this effort is that what we are trying to produce is a golden age for fatcats, billionaires, and polluters that is going to make this discrepancy worse and worse and worse. And it is in that context that I would like to ask you some questions about these executive orders.
▶ 2:09:04Sen. Whitehouse: President trump fired off 26 executive orders I believe his first day. Are you familiar with them?
▶ 2:09:09Mr. Vought: I'm getting familiar with them. I've been trying to stay abreast of them and read them. I have not read through all of them. But I am aware he has been very active and I've been reading a number of them.
▶ 2:09:22Sen. Whitehouse: Did you have any role in preparing any of them?
▶ 2:09:24Mr. Vought: That is part of the deliberative process that transition goes through. I'm not going to invade that process.
▶ 2:09:34Sen. Whitehouse: Wait, wait, wait. Can I have a point of order here and stop the clock? I was the chairman -- you can put that down now. For a congress in which we had I think over 40 hearings. And in those hearings, never once did I tell a republican colleague what questions they could or could not ask.
▶ 2:10:07Sen. Whitehouse: Those are kind of not my business. And we have somebody out there questions. We certainly never had a witness tell senators what questions they could and could not ask. So I want -- I guess -- why can I not get an answer? Is there some new rule in this committee as to where these executive orders came from?
▶ 2:10:37Sen. Whitehouse: That is perfectly, to me, legitimate congressional oversight. Over and over this witness has told us what he -- what questions he will answer. The oath he took was to tell the truth, the whole truth, nothing but the truth in response to our questions. If there are some new limitation about what question I can answer, I would like to understand that. If not, I would like to have the chair tell the witness to answer my questions.
▶ 2:11:01Chair Graham: As I understand it, there is no attorney-client privilege here, right? You are not claiming attorney-client.
▶ 2:11:12Mr. Vought: I'm not claiming a privilege.
▶ 2:11:16Chair Graham: You're not part of the administration. Generally speaking, I guess the question is, did you advise on executive orders and which ones? Is that the question? Can you kind of tell us that?
▶ 2:11:28Mr. Vought: Senator, I was not a member of the transition. I was member of the president's campaign.
▶ 2:11:36Sen. Whitehouse: Do you have knowledge of where the executive orders were drafted?
▶ 2:11:39Mr. Vought: I don't have a comprehensive knowledge.
▶ 2:11:46Sen. Whitehouse: Do you know for instance if some of them came out of language from the center for renewing america or some of them came out of project 2025 or some of them came out of the heritage institute or some of them came out of the american petroleum institute? Do you know an answer to those questions?
▶ 2:12:04Mr. Vought: I can't imagine they came from project 2025. The president disassociated himself repeatedly from there. I cannot give you a comprehensive answer as to where the executive orders were compiled. My assumption is they were compiled within the transition.
▶ 2:12:21Sen. Whitehouse: Will, we will see because I think there is every reason to believe they came from special interests and lobbyists also we will pursue that. Let me ask you about a letter you wrote some time ago on center for renewing america letterhead to the judicial conference. I think it is the only letter that you ever wrote to the judicial conference. It was dated december 18, 2023.
▶ 2:12:52Sen. Whitehouse: It goes into a certain amount of detail about the ethics and government act and about justice jackson's disclosure forms. Did you do the research for this letter into the ethics and government act and into the judicial financial disclosure forms personally?
▶ 2:13:12Mr. Vought: I did not do the research. Our center did the research on that. I can't speak to who did the work specifically on it.
▶ 2:13:24Sen. Marshall: --
▶ 2:13:27Sen. Whitehouse: ? You don't know? There's no privilege to that.
▶ 2:13:30Mr. Vought: No, but I think tank is a public policy organization that has a decision to note who does the work on something and who doesn't do the work on it. I stand by that letter. I have not read it in sometime. I am happy to look at it. I am aware that I signed it.
▶ 2:13:51Sen. Whitehouse: Did he have a role?
▶ 2:13:55Mr. Vought: He is a member but I'm not going to speak beyond that.
▶ 2:14:00Sen. Whitehouse: Here we go again, Mr. chairman.
▶ 2:14:03Chair Graham: He said he stands by the letter.
▶ 2:14:07Sen. Whitehouse: That is not the question? That is not the question. My time is up.
▶ 2:14:11Chair Graham: Senator lee.
▶ 2:14:13Sen. Lee: Thank you for being here, Mr. vought, and your willingness to serve. The administration has been crushing the american economy, american innovation. It is also something that operates in a manner fuamentally contrary to the structure and intent of the U.S. constitution. Article one section one and seven made clear only congress may enact federal law.
▶ 2:14:38Sen. Lee: Article one section seven in particular makes clear you cannot make a federal law unless you follow the formula. The formula involves bicameral passage of the single bill, single item, legislative text. Both houses followed by submission to the present for signature for acquiescence. Unless you follow them model, you cannot under the constitution make a federal law.
▶ 2:15:08Sen. Lee: Congress has been veering off course in that direction and tragically the courts have been at least inconsistent enforcing these restrictions. It is important that we arrest the problem because the problem is arresting americans in some cases, very literally. Not just metaphorically.
▶ 2:15:34Sen. Lee: C1 executive branch bureaucrats promulgated federal regulations that added one point $5 trillion of regulatory compliance costs just during that narrow time period. This on top of previous estimates suggesting as far back as 2016 to 2017, the existing regulatory compliance costs by federal regulators in washington are around $2 trillion. So it is much higher than that now.
▶ 2:16:06Sen. Lee: These laws cannot really be fired by anyone. They don't have to stand for election. They are not known to the american people. And they promulgate nearly 100,000 pages of federal law or initial drafts that could become law every year. A simple solution to that would involve passage of a bill called the raines act, regulations for the executive.
▶ 2:16:36Sen. Lee: It would require federal regulations before they may be enforced as federal law would have to be subjected to the bicameralism imposed by article one,, section seven. Will you work with congress to enact reforms like these?
▶ 2:17:01Mr. Vought: It is an important area for the president, ensuring the bureaucracy cannot promulgate regulations that are harming the american people and it is one of those ideas I think congress should take a look at and the administration supports the thrust of the direction of the legislation.
▶ 2:17:25Sen. Lee: There are those who argue a significant amount of reform to federal regulations could be carried out through the executive branch itself acting alone. What are your views on that and whether that could adequately do the job?
▶ 2:17:43Sen. Lee: Is there a risk that if it is performed only by the executive branch that might bring relief to americans as long as this president is in office but subject us to the same risk immediately after he leaves?
▶ 2:17:58Mr. Vought: That will be the problem and we saw that with regard to proposals regarding an ministry of pay. When you give the administration , whoever the omb director is the ability to execute this outside of statute, then you have a situation where you minimize costs and maximize benefits and potentially escape the process of -- that congress is intended.
▶ 2:18:26Sen. Lee: Irene traduced a bill in this congress that I introduced last year, the america first act. I posed -- it imposes a simple principle on american law, that most americans agree with, which is welfare benefits provided by the federal government should be available to americans and not to those who are not americans, especially those here unlawfully. It would ensure specifically only U.S.
▶ 2:18:55Sen. Lee: Citizens and lawful permanent residents could be eligible to receive benefits on programs like medicaid, education, tax benefit programs, and other government benefits. These are things that impose significant cost on the american economy. They are draining resources meant to benefit americans and not those who have come here, contrary to our laws in order to receive them.
▶ 2:19:27Sen. Lee: Would you commit to working with congress to bring about reforms like these?
▶ 2:19:31Mr. Vought: Absolutely. These are exactly the types of reforms the president wants.
▶ 2:19:37Sen. Lee: My time is inspired -- expired.
▶ 2:19:41Chair Graham: One more. Senator wyden.
▶ 2:19:45Sen. Wyden: Let me ask about medicaid. I am the ranking democrat on the committee. I have been perplexed by your views about medicaid over the years because medicaid is already incredibly efficient payer within the health care system. Here we have this program that helps with rest homes, with workers, kids, disabled. The track record is it is efficient. Do you disagree with that?
▶ 2:20:15Mr. Vought: I think it is the extent to which medicaid is now --
▶ 2:20:20Sen. Wyden: Yes or no? Do you agree with the point that I am making that medicaid is sufficient? I have read everything you have to say about it. You are an influential figure. Your politics is different than mine, but look at the parents of the arguments. Medicaid is an efficient program that helps vulnerable people. Do you think medicaid is an efficient?
▶ 2:20:42Mr. Vought: I don't know if we are using the same definition of efficiency.
▶ 2:20:47Sen. Wyden: You use something that would suggest other than the point I am making? Right now, per person spending grew less than medicare and private insurance over the last few years, so this program you want to reduce is more efficient than practically a host of other things. I want to know what your argument is for medicaid being inefficient that you used to justify the cuts.
▶ 2:21:14Mr. Vought: I am not sure I used efficiency as the means to justify reforms to medicaid. I was referring to defending the budgets that president trump set up that the populations you mentioned are no longer just to the populations of medicaid but now we have able-bodied working adults that get a higher match and that has taken away from the ability to have a focus on those specific populations because you
▶ 2:21:45Mr. Vought: Have seats chasing the match instead of trying to focus on those it was intended for and weed out improper payments and we know there are improper payments in medicaid to a high degree.
▶ 2:21:57Sen. Wyden: What we know is spending grew less and all these other programs and the analysis done by objective people, dollar for dollar, this is an important way to help the poor. I will start with that. You have not told me anything that would suggest you have a good argument that indicates you believe medicare is inefficient because fact suggests otherwise. Let's leave the record open. Let me ask you one other question.
▶ 2:22:28Sen. Wyden: I think the distillation of the trump economic program is to give tax breaks to all the people at the top and it will be paid for by these kinds of cuts, cuts in efficient health care programs like medicaid and other programs and the like.
▶ 2:22:45Sen. Wyden: And I would like to know, does that concern you at all, that we have these values that are going to help the people right at the top, at the tippy top of the top and we are going to cut these programs like medicaid? Are those your values? Do you think that is something in line with american values? I think we want everybody to have a chance to get ahead.
▶ 2:23:09Mr. Vought: I fully support the notion we want everyone to get ahead and we would not characterize our economic program that way. We think it is important to give people tax cuts at all levels. The president wants to extend those tax cuts.
▶ 2:23:26Mr. Vought: What about the vulnerable people who are going to get hurt in the process? No matter how you try to reframe this, this is an efficient program, medicaid, that serves some of the most vulnerable people in america. It is a lifeline for them and the people at the top are going to get the benefits. And I gather you do not have a problem with that. I think most americans want a sense of fairness that you are not offering to them.
▶ 2:23:56Mr. Vought: I hope there is a better medicaid program. Medicaid is an important program for the poor. If they get better health care as a result of the reforms that align the incentives so states are doing everything they can to have the best programs they possibly can as opposed to expanding them unnecessarily that hurts the federal taxpayer and I believe hurts the people that the medicaid program was meant for.
▶ 2:24:24Sen. Wyden: If you have a way to show you can make medicaid more efficient, because right now it is clearly meeting the objective test of using federal dollars in a smart way and do it without hurting them and perhaps, heaven forbid, he would take some of the money that is going to go to tax breaks for people, I will be all ears.
▶ 2:24:48Sen. Wyden: What I see is a path to hurting more of honorable people and instead the money will go to the people at the top and I do nothing that is right.
▶ 2:24:56Chair Graham: Senator wyden. Thank you. Well done. For appearing before the committee today. Your full statement will be included in the record. The hearing record will remain open until noon tomorrow for the submission of statements and questions for the record delivered to the committee clerk. Senator merkley and I met yesterday. Our staff has been working together the best we can.
▶ 2:25:24Chair Graham: I enjoyed our meeting and thought we had a good hearing today and I will speak later about the act and the markup. I have concerns and I will share those with you. But thank you very much, Mr. vought. The hearing is adjourned. Sorry, where you? I apologize. [captioning performed by the national captioning institute, which is responsible for its caption content and accuracy. Visit ncicap.org]