▶ 0:19:36Chair Grassley: We welcome everybody. Our agenda, we have one legislative matter and two nominations listed. The minority has exercised their right under the committee rules to hold over the nominations of todd blanche and abigail slater. So of course, those nominations will be held over.
▶ 0:20:07Chair Grassley: Today, we gather to consider s. 331, the halt all legal trafficking fentanyl act, also known by the acronym halt fentanyl act. This bill does three things. First, it makes permanent the class scheduling of fentanyl-related substances.
▶ 0:20:37Chair Grassley: Second, it confirms the sentencing penalties the federal courts have long applied to fentanyl-related substances. This isn't a change in law, so the courts are applying the law today. Finally, the halt fentanyl act relaxes registration requirements for scientists studying schedule one substances.
▶ 0:21:04Chair Grassley: I have seen some disappointing misinformation spread about halt fentanyl act, so I want to be equally clear about what this bill does not do. Halt fentanyl does not reschedule or have any impact on legal fentanyl dispensed by medical doctors.
▶ 0:21:29Chair Grassley: Under halt fentanyl act, agents will have the same access they have had to medical treatment. The legislation does not increase the mandatory minimums or throw barriers to research. To the contrary.
▶ 0:21:52Chair Grassley: Halt fentanyl maintains existing penalties and makes it easier for researchers to study his schedule one substances. This bill targets a legal knockoffs created by the cartels , which creation is able to circumvent U.S. law.
▶ 0:22:23Chair Grassley: It poses those -- closes those loopholes so that cartels have no incentive to keep creating these deadly substances. As the inventor of the class scheduling, Dr.
▶ 0:22:36Chair Grassley: Wesley told us, "no one can die from ingesting something never created or be incarcerated for trafficking something that does not exist." my office has received countless letters from families who have lost loved ones to fentanyl.
▶ 0:23:01Chair Grassley: Many of them urges us to pass halt fentanyl without modification or delay. One mother wrote me about watching her son died. She said, "he call me into his room, screaming, mom, mom, I can't breathe. I entered his room, he was blue. Before I had time, he fell forward onto the floor, face down.
▶ 0:23:33Chair Grassley: He was too heavy for me to turn over and give cpr." another mother wrote of the moment the police told her that her son had died from fentanyl. She begged them to revive him, only to learn that he was already gone.
▶ 0:23:51Chair Grassley: She wrote, "the scream that came out of my mouth, they say you will never forget, but still replays over and over and over." another parent described the loss of her son as " lifetime sentence of pain and grief." after her first son died because a fake pill made of fentanyl.
▶ 0:24:21Chair Grassley: Her second son took his own life because of the unbearable pain of losing his mother. She writes, "I may not have my children but I will definitely have their voices." I wish I could read aloud every one of the over 80 letters I received from parents. That number is substantial.
▶ 0:24:49Chair Grassley: Yet, it represents just a small fraction of families broken by this crisis. I want to thank these brave families for writing me. I also want to welcome and thank all the parents who are with us this very day. You all have given us a call to action, and it is past time that we found the will to act.
▶ 0:25:19Chair Grassley: This legislation is a bipartisan solution to the fentanyl epidemic. It is cosponsored by seven democrat senators and 98 democrat members when it passed the house of representatives. Every republican member on this committee is a cosponsor of halt fentanyl act.
▶ 0:25:41Chair Grassley: Before I turn it over to ranking member durbin for open remarks, I want to close with a video from several parents who reached out to my office, and it also proves to you that I have learned from senator durbin about having videos at these meetings. >> it is just one of countless tragedies caused by this epidemic.
▶ 0:26:12Chair Grassley: His story is one of hope extinguished. Of a family left broken. But it is also a call to action. >> we know we are losing thousands of american lives every year to this horrible, horrible chemical. This includes my 14-year-old son alexander. >> my son jesse died of fentanyl poisoning on february 16, 2022. >> I lost my 13-year-old son luca to a counterfeit percocet.
▶ 0:26:39Chair Grassley: >> last week, a dear friend of mine testified in front of all of you and talked about my son. >> I lost my son, austin babcock, january 20 6, 2019. Honestly, sitting here making this video, I think it is a sad day in america when us families, the bereaved families have to make a video like this.
▶ 0:27:09Chair Grassley: >> please keep the bill clean, do not attach any amendments to it. We need action now. >> please pass the halt fentanyl act without amendment to get to present trumps desk >> pass the halt fentanyl act to protect our country's future. >> this piece of legislation could be saving thousands of lives. >> keep it clean. Enough is enough.
▶ 0:27:35Chair Grassley: >> we need fentanyl-related substances permanently scheduled.
▶ 0:27:45Chair Grassley: Senator durbin.
▶ 0:27:47Sen. Durbin: Thank you, chairman. I will make an opening statement on a different topic and then speak to the pending legislation. On monday, president trump posted to social media "he who saves his country does not violate any law." in another social media post, vice president vance falsely claimed "judges are not allowed to control the executive's legitimate power."
▶ 0:28:19Sen. Durbin: When he is not blocking lifesaving funding that congress has authorized, elon musk, has also been posting threatening messages to judges for his 218 million followers.
▶ 0:28:34Sen. Durbin: Musk has repeatedly called for impeachment of federal judges and recently tweeted, "the notion of having a judge job for life no matter how bad the judgment is ridiculous." these claimed by the president, vice president, and elon musk are not amusing, they are a danger to our constitution.
▶ 0:28:56Sen. Durbin: The trump administration's unlawful actions from mass layoffs of civil servants to blocking funds congress appropriated pose a serious threat to our constitutional order and the separation of powers. Since the landmark case of norm byrne versus madison decided in 1803, there has been a broad bipartisan consensus that in the words of chief justice marshall, it is emphatically the province and duty of the judicial department to say what the law is.
▶ 0:29:24Sen. Durbin: The trump administration's serial violations of the law are not only a challenge to the judicial branch, they also challenge us, congress, the article one branch, in ways we have never, never seen before. Under article one of the constitution, it is our responsibility to write the laws. Under article two, it is the executive branch's responsibility to take care of the laws be faithfully executed. No one can seriously claim president trump is taken care faithfully and executing the law.
▶ 0:29:55Sen. Durbin: Let me give you one example. Last month, president trump summarily fired 18 inspector general's. A law authored by our chairman clearly stated, and I quote, "the president shall communicate to congress in writing 30 days before removing and inspector general." the subsidy rationale including detail in case specific reasons for the removal. President trump violated this law.
▶ 0:30:23Sen. Durbin: More than three weeks ago, chairman grassley and I set the president a letter asking for a lawfully required rationale. We are still waiting for response. We are also witnessing an unprecedented assault on the department of justice. Dozens of career officials, not political appointees, career officials at the justice department, fbi have been fired.
▶ 0:30:47Sen. Durbin: Thousands of additional fbi personnel have been targeted simply for doing what they were assigned to do, investigate the january 6 attack on the capitol. Now they are being investigated for that. At the same time, trump political appointees are already weaponizing the justice department's pass a law enforcement resources more nakedly partisan reasons.
▶ 0:31:10Sen. Durbin: Acting deputy attorney general amil bovee, one of our former defense attorneys for president trump serving in senior justice department roles ordered the dismissal of the prosecution of the new york city mayor eric adams in exchange for the mayor's cooperation with the trump immigration agenda. In response, several attorneys resigned, including the acting U.S.
▶ 0:31:34Sen. Durbin: Attorney, a staunch federalist society conservative who has clerked for justice scalia, appointed by president trump, stood her ground and refused to agree. My democratic colleagues on the colleague and I have requested inspector general investigation of the sordid incident, underscoring the danger of a weaponize department of justice under the new administration.
▶ 0:31:59Sen. Durbin: The prospect of an fbi director who is an unprincipled loyalist of the president and untethered from the rule of law heightens that danger. Today, the senate will vote on kash patel's nomination. It is an opportunity for the senate to fulfill its constitutional duty and preserve the rule of law. Mr. patel's record demonstrates he is a dangerous political operative who would not serve as -- should not serve as the next fbi director. Mr.
▶ 0:32:29Sen. Durbin: Patel has been crystal clear that he plans to use the fbi's vast surveillance and investigative authority to "come after" the presidents enemies. I hope I am wrong but I believe my republican colleagues will quickly come to regret any support for Mr. patel. Fbi agent's have come to us privately as whistleblowers and told us the terrible decline in morale at the fbi.
▶ 0:32:54Sen. Durbin: This is the first presidential transition with such a purge, and it certainly has had its impact on these men and women who have dedicated their lives to our safety. I suspect the time will come soon when we will all appreciate the importance of a legislature and judiciary independent of the executive. Now on the bill before us. In just a decade, fentanyl has emerged as the deadliest drug in american history.
▶ 0:33:23Sen. Durbin: All it takes is two milligrams, a fraction of the size of a penny, to cause an overdose. There is an overdose crisis in the united states. We have learned that evidence-based solutions reduce deaths. In fact, in 2020 three, overdose deaths actually decreased for the first time since 2018 by 10%, more than 10%. We need to look at every factor contributing to this reduction.
▶ 0:33:51Sen. Durbin: Counseling and treatment, training for first responders, naloxone, and other things. I appreciate the hard work of the sponsors of the bill were considering. We all agree that the halt fentanyl act will not by itself keep our communities safe. Our law enforcement agency are on the front line of the place to protect americans.
▶ 0:34:10Sen. Durbin: The other day, we had testimony from new jersey, on our panel, who talked about the incidence of fentanyl and where it came from. We did a little research after some of his statements. The national crime prevention council estimates 80%, 80% of teen and young adult fentanyl poisoning can be traced to social media.
▶ 0:34:39Sen. Durbin: Your heartbreaking witnesses this morning, mothers and parents who have lost a kid, a teenager, 80% of the time likely attributable to social media. Which means, in my mind, we ought to consider that as part of the solution to reducing fentanyl use. Politically motivated purges of senior law enforcement at doj and the fbi diminishes our ability to hold traffickers accountable and cut up a supply of fentanyl.
▶ 0:35:09Sen. Durbin: So we need to make sure this remains a priority in terms of our activity and funding. Getting fentanyl off the street is a herculean task that requires us to put politics aside and across the aisle work to make this bipartisan effort. I yield.
▶ 0:35:26Chair Grassley: We will now turn to the halt fentanyl act. I would like to offer a manager's amendment. 25160. This manager's amendment corrects a typo in the underlying text. As I noted at the outset of this meeting, the halt fentanyl act does three things. First, it makes permanent the class scheduling of fentanyl related substances.
▶ 0:35:59Chair Grassley: Secondly, confirms the existing sentencing framework for those substances. And finally, it relaxes research requirements for schedule one substances. I move the adoption of the manager's amendment. All in favor say aye. All opposed say no. The majority of the members present having voted in the affirmative, the ayes have it, manager's amendment.
▶ 0:36:27Chair Grassley: Now we will turn to whoever wants to offer first degree amendments.
▶ 0:36:30Sen. Durbin: Mr. chairman, I call as my amendment to number oll25184. I want to say at the outset, this amendment is being distributed, that senator graham and I have addressed this 230 issue directly together on a bipartisan basis and others have joined us.
▶ 0:36:58Sen. Durbin: I say to senator graham, I'm offering this amendment, I want to engage you in dialogue as to how we approach this. I think we are at a moment where we can hope for achieving a bipartisan support for this effort. I don't believe we can deal with fentanyl effectively if we don't deal with what is going on with social media.
▶ 0:37:21Sen. Durbin: When 80% of young children who are victims of fentanyl use social media, let's be very honest about this. We have to deal with this directly. Time and again, social media people have made excuse after excuse that they really want to cooperate with us but they are never there when we need them. We have to move forward directly with this and include it in this effort.
▶ 0:37:47Sen. Durbin: I think halt fentanyl, if we are serious, should include social media.
▶ 0:37:53Chair Grassley: Senator cornyn.
▶ 0:38:01Sen. Cornyn: Thank you, I'll be brief. I want to speak on all the amendments being offered by democratic colleagues today. We can all agree about the importance of this legislation, although I would say that it would be may be even more important in passing new laws for our democratic colleagues to join with us in securing the border. And we know where fentanyl comes from, the chemical precursors come from china.
▶ 0:38:31Sen. Cornyn: They make their way to mexico where they are then manufactured into counterfeit looking pharmaceuticals that are then result in the lives lost, lost lives of last year, 107,000 people. 70% of those overdoses can be attributed to fentanyl. Last year, we got some good news with regard to the overall figures, but those numbers are deceptive.
▶ 0:39:00Sen. Cornyn: The reason is, carfentanil, a fentanyl-related substance which is 100 times more potent has reemerged in the drug supply chain. It is still rare but the cdc tells us the overdose deaths involving carfentanil increased sevenfold starting in mid 2023. It carfentanil further infiltrates the drug supply, we could see a substantial increase in overdose deaths.
▶ 0:39:28Sen. Cornyn: That is why it's so important that we urgently, permanently schedule fentanyl-related substances and do it today. Our colleagues have circulated a number of amendments, some of which may actually be constructive. As chairman of the senate caucus on international narcotics control, member of this committee, I stand ready to work with anyone who has a good idea about how we can fight the scourge of fentanyl.
▶ 0:39:55Sen. Cornyn: Of course as I said at the beginning, that could have started with bipartisan efforts to secure the border and prevent the supply, at least to slow it down significantly, which unfortunately has not happened. The bill we are marking out today is already battle tested in the house of representatives in its current form, past 289-133.
▶ 0:40:19Sen. Cornyn: Our partners in law enforcement including the national association of police organizations, national directors association, major county sheriff's of america, major chiefs association, national sheriffs association, national district attorneys association, and others have urged us to pass the bill immediately and without modification.
▶ 0:40:43Sen. Cornyn: I fear that offering even well intended amendments to the bill will slow down this extremely important legislation. I share the concerns of our law enforcement partners. So I encourage all of my colleagues to oppose all amendments and vote out the halt fentanyl act out of committee today. I would say, Mr.
▶ 0:41:07Sen. Cornyn: Chairman, that that does not preclude our cooperation on other ideas that senator durbin and others may have about how we can further address the scourge of fentanyl. But I think slowing down this bill daley changing it from what has been passed in the house -- and we know how difficult it is with the thin margins in the house for anything to get done.
▶ 0:41:32Sen. Cornyn: Slowing this bill down, I think, is a problem and something we ought to avoid. Again, that does not preclude us from working on other ideas that our democratic colleagues may have. I would urge all of my colleagues to vote against the amendments and pass this legislation without further modification.
▶ 0:41:51Chair Grassley: Senator durbin, you want to engage?
▶ 0:41:55Sen. Durbin: I want to invite senator graham to respond.
▶ 0:42:01Sen. Graham: Thank. Senator welch mentioned to me yesterday about maybe joining the 230 effort. I think we had a vote that would pass overwhelmingly the idea of sunsetting section 230. Senator durbin, I want to give you a lot of credit because you join me and others to push for this. The time is coming. I agree with what senator cornyn said, let's pass halt fentanyl now. But if you don't control the border, you cannot halt fentanyl. If you don't deal with social media, you cannot halt fentanyl act.
▶ 0:42:32Sen. Graham: I agree with everything you are saying here. Let's get it scheduled the right way. Senator grassley, I don't want to speak for you, but we talked about that you would be supportive of reforming section 230.
▶ 0:42:45Chair Grassley: Reforming or repeal, whatever we can work out, so instead of having five bills out of this committee, we can have one bill.
▶ 0:42:54Sen. Graham: Open minded as you can get. Section 230 repeal is coming. It is coming out of judiciary, it will be overwhelmingly bipartisan support. Halt fentanyl is coming out of judiciary. I don't know if it would be a bipartisan or not. We need to marry up with the house and senate. My position is, let's not mix these two concepts. Let's focus on the task at hand, senator.
▶ 0:43:22Sen. Graham: I promise you my full and complete support to get section 230 repealed or sunseted. That is where I met.
▶ 0:43:31Sen. Durbin: Mr. chairman, you and I have a trusting relationship and I respect you very much. If you give me an assurance that we will have a hearing and markup on the repeal of section 230 as quickly as possible, I think it's an urgent issue, I will withdraw my vote.
▶ 0:43:51Chair Grassley: I think I started the process yesterday when we had the hearing we had. I have been quoted over a period of two or three years about voting for repeal, voting for some modification of it. I want to get a large share of this committee behind one bill, if we can.
▶ 0:44:15Sen. Graham: That is good enough for me, I withdraw the amendment. -- Sen. durbin: that is good enough for me, I withdraw the amendment.
▶ 0:44:27Sen. Graham: Thank you. His son gavin was in a sex scene relationship with someone who he thought to be a young woman but turned out to be a gang in nigeria and killed himself. I don't know who it was. He said social media is really big tobacco. It needs to be regulated. He needs to be held accountable.
▶ 0:44:53Sen. Graham: I talked to representative duffy yesterday about his testimony, and I promised him, we are going to not let your son die in vain. They have cut one of the people involved in the nigerian gang. This is a practice all over the country, where they get young people into these relationships, basically extort them. Instead of giving money, this young man killed himself because of the fear that would be coming his way.
▶ 0:45:24Sen. Graham: And there is not a damn thing we can do about it right now other than find the guy in nigeria who will be replaced tomorrow. You want to end this? Hold the websites accountable that allow this to happen. That day is coming.
▶ 0:45:39Chair Grassley: We are going to have other amendments offered. I will call on senator kennedy first.
▶ 0:45:49Sen. Kennedy: Thank you, Mr. chairman. I agree that we should address section 230 but I hope come Mr. chairman, that you and our ranking member, as you always are, will be very inclusive. This is a very complicated subject, and it has constitutional limitations, it has practical limitations.
▶ 0:46:13Sen. Kennedy: I hope we will spend a requisite amount of time getting it right, considering everybody's ideas. Because I appreciate my friend and colleague, senator graham's enthusiasm. But this is not going to be easy. The social media companies are going to bring fresh hell. You know it and I know it. They are going to unleash their version of hell.
▶ 0:46:45Sen. Kennedy: So we need to get it right and all be on the same page before we do this, in my opinion, for what it's worth.
▶ 0:46:56Chair Grassley: Senator whitehouse.
▶ 0:47:01Sen. Whitehouse: First let me join the chorus and say 230 repeal, I hope that bill is heavily bipartisan with significant sponsorship on both sides of the aisle. And that starts a process for review here. Delighted to be a part of that.
▶ 0:47:20Sen. Whitehouse: Second, I was prepared to offer an amendment which I will not offer, but I would like to speak to it for a moment, which is regarding the work of the task force, kleptocracy team, kleptocracy as it recovery initiative. All of that was generated out of this committee in bipartisan fashion. And all of it has been stopped under this administration.
▶ 0:47:46Sen. Whitehouse: The reason, among many, that is a mistake in the context of a fentanyl bill, the kleptocracy work goes after the financial system, the dark economy that supports international criminals. And while it is very important, and as a U.S. attorney, attorney general, I did the interdiction of inbound substances that were illegal.
▶ 0:48:17Sen. Whitehouse: It is just as important to interdict the money flowing back, particularly to target the systemic dark money, dark economy systems in other countries and in various places, even in our country, where criminals and klepto kratz can hide their money. This has been extremely bipartisan. Mr. chairman, you've been very involved in this and very helpful.
▶ 0:48:46Sen. Whitehouse: Senator graham, senator cornyn has been involved in this, a focus of the antinarcotics committee here in congress which I'm the ranking member of now, have cheered. My amendment would have urged the department to make it essential that they restore that work. I will not offer the amendment but I want to make the point. I want to speak in favor of a book amendment very briefly. We are not chemists here, Mr. chairman.
▶ 0:49:16Sen. Whitehouse: We are entering an area in which we are not expert. It may very well prove that there are benign substances, perhaps even helpful substances with treatment and research that get swept up in the definitions dragnet of this bill. I think there should be an escape hatch, exit or substances that have been proven to be benign.
▶ 0:49:47Sen. Whitehouse: Senator booker's oll25213 would allow that. I know the committee is in a great rush to move this along, but to quote senator kennedy, it's important that we provide a requisite amount of time getting it right. I think this amendment of senator booker's helps us get it right. And because of the managers amendment, this bill has to go back to the house anyway.
▶ 0:50:17Sen. Whitehouse: So we might as well amend it because it is going back. If the amendments are sensible and noncontroversial, as I believe senator booker's would be, no harm done. It would pass just as fast. Has to go back because of your managers amendment, weekend add to it without delay. It is sensible, and I think we should.
▶ 0:50:38Sen. Whitehouse: For folks involved in trying to manage recovery and treatment of people in opioid addiction, to interfere with that research could be a very dangerous and unnecessary collateral harm to getting this done. So I speak in favor of senator booker's amendment when he has the chance to bring it up.
▶ 0:50:56Sen. Durbin: Mr. chairman, could I asked the senator a question? I wonder if the senator has any examples?
▶ 0:51:06Sen. Whitehouse: At this point, no, because the research is ongoing. But if you look at the manner in which drugs that support treatment, medication is supported treatment, which you and I have worked on together to get people out of prison, medicated treatment, get back into their communities, I don't want to foreclose that.
▶ 0:51:30Sen. Whitehouse: What the amendment in my view would do, if you can show that the substance is benign, you can go ahead with the research, go ahead with the treatment. Everything else -- the default is, the stuff is scheduled, there are penalties for trafficking it. The exemption would be if it can be shown to be benign. It just leaves that opportunity. I don't want to speak any further on senator booker's amendment.
▶ 0:51:59Sen. Booker: I want to speak to the question asked, is there an example. I directed the senators to the fda testimony before this united states senate where they explicitly set because of the chemical substances we are talking about, changing one thing could present an antagonist that could actually help save lives. In addition to that, the antagonist that we know works, one example my team is telling me, where that was the case.
▶ 0:52:30Sen. Booker: We all share the exact same goals here. We all share the exact same urgency. Thousands have been killed in my state. This is a common sense, noncontroversial science-backed idea. Again, I direct the senator to the testimony from our own fda that explicitly said this could actually undermine our ability to find antagonists that could save lives. >> Mr. chairman, can I respond briefly?
▶ 0:53:01Sen. Booker: The fact that it could happen doesn't mean that it will happen. I would just say that, if there is actually some science -- and senator whitehouse pointed out that none of us here are experts of pharmacology or chemistry, or any appropriate science.
▶ 0:53:21Sen. Booker: But if there is some proven usefulness, benign use, to you senator whitehouse's terminology, there is no reason we couldn't modify this at a later date. But to leave a huge gap in the coverage or leave some question may be for the courts to have to litigate, I think is not wise at this point.
▶ 0:53:51Sen. Booker: If there is some discovered usefulness for some analog or some other derivative of the chemistry of the drugs we are talking about, then we can modify the law once that evidence is presented to us and we are satisfied it is based on sound science.
▶ 0:54:08Chair Grassley: Senator booker, would you like to offer your amendment now?
▶ 0:54:12Sen. Booker: No, sir. I will patiently wait.
▶ 0:54:17Sen. Whitehouse: I would offer a correction. Senator coons is a trained chemist. >> I took organic chemistry in college, does that count?
▶ 0:54:27Chair Grassley: I see senator coons' light is on.
▶ 0:54:33Sen. Coons: Although I did train in chemistry, I'm not an expert in psychopharmacology. Like everyone of us, I am concerned about the fentanyl crisis that has taken thousands of delaware inns and far too many americans for far too long, and we owe them a strong and coordinated response. It is important that we keep in mind the issue addressed by this bill, just a small part of the overall much greater crisis.
▶ 0:55:01Sen. Coons: I have worked with senator cornyn last year on a bill that would clarify the legality of fentanyl test strips, and other bills serializing the pill press machines. There are lots of other things we can and should do together. Of the thousands of federal prosecutions, just a few hundred are four analogues. But analogues are worth our understanding, studying, and addressing in a balanced way. I agree with the need for fentanyl class one scheduling.
▶ 0:55:31Sen. Coons: It doesn't make sense for law enforcement to play a game of walkable where cartels can keep generating new analogues faster than they can be scheduled, but it's important to appreciate that is not the norm. Typically substances are controlled only after science-based testing and analysis by the dea and hhs and each individual substance to understand the impacts of that substance, either harmful or therapeutic, has on the body. The biden administration developed thoughtful recommendations years ago to combat these competing challenges.
▶ 0:56:03Sen. Coons: Class one scheduling coupled with an offering that allowed for studying and potentially rescheduling analogues. Both sides of the political spectrum were critical of these recommendations but for opposite reasons. I frankly thought the balance got it mostly right. I work with several colleagues, heinrich, cassidy, to see if we could get bipartisan agreement on the offramp. We put in a lot of hard work but never got there.
▶ 0:56:28Sen. Coons: I have filed an amendment with the latest working draft that we developed together, which I thought balanced the issues at stake. I will not bring it up for a vote today because I know the support is frankly not here on this committee. But I hope we look to this work in the future, as senator cornyn brought up, as synthetics continue to be developed, as we confront the need to strike the right balance.
▶ 0:56:53Sen. Coons: Last, let me speak to another part of senator booker's amendment, which promotes transparency and reporting. It strikes me as reasonable and I support it. Disclosure of the identification of and testing status of fentanyl-related substances can help private researchers identify research targets for potential therapeutics and further scientific understanding of this complex field that may include hundreds, if not thousands of analogues in the future. Thank you, Mr. chairman.
▶ 0:57:21Chair Grassley: Who wants to be recognized? Senator welch.
▶ 0:57:28Sen. Welch: Thank you, Mr. chairman. I want to bring up amendment bom25106. This is the test strip amendment. The amendment would help prevent drug overdoses and deaths by allowing much needed access to the life test strips. This is about saving lives.
▶ 0:57:52Sen. Welch: Those test strips are widely used to detect fentanyl, xylazine, and other fentanyl additives. I mention widely used throughout the country because they work. Last year, ohio governor mike dewine announced his office would distribute one million test strips throughout ohio. These test strips have been used in states from alabama to vermont.
▶ 0:58:24Sen. Welch: We have legalized these test strips for fentanyl. It is about saving lives. You get the information you need to provide the medical information as quickly as possible. I see this as facilitating the goal all of us have which includes saving lives from people who are suffering from a fentanyl overdose, as well as the part of this bill, to try
▶ 0:58:54Sen. Welch: And restrict what fentanyl gets into the communities. I offer that amendment with the consideration of the committee.
▶ 0:59:03Chair Grassley: I would like to give a response to you in opposition to your amendment. First of all, I think it takes decision to legalize test strips out of state's hands. The states are grappling with whether to legalize test strips. We ought to let them work through that process. Another reason is test strips are not 100% accurate.
▶ 0:59:35Chair Grassley: They may provide a false sense of security, and some users may even use them to seek out the very drug that may kill them. We have our own centers for disease control under the biden administration cautioning that test strips may not identify some fentanyl knockoffs. So I would ask my committee to vote against the amendment. Go ahead, senator kennedy.
▶ 1:00:04Sen. Kennedy: I have a question for the senator. Could you put a little more meat on this bone, how will your amendment improve this bill? I understand what a test strip is but I don't understand the application of it.
▶ 1:00:20Sen. Welch: There are two things. There is that the rest of this bill, which is to have other analog substances included in the scheduling. There is also, with every fentanyl bill we have, the desire to save lives.
▶ 1:00:43Sen. Welch: This test strip has been used in so many of our states with the effect of saving lives from people who are suffering from a fentanyl overdose. So it is supplemental, senator, not interfere with the basic core of the bill. That is how I see it.
▶ 1:01:04Sen. Kennedy: What do they use the test strip for, if you don't mind me asking?
▶ 1:01:08Sen. Welch: I have a fentanyl overdose. The test strip is used by medical folks to determine what it is. For instance, senator scott and I were concerned about xylazine, one of the new additives that popped up, was really adding to the suffering that people had. How do you know what it is that a person is suffering from can be relevant to what medical intervention is provided.
▶ 1:01:36Sen. Welch: As you know, the medical intervention, sooner better rather than later. If it is not soon come often it results in a fatality.
▶ 1:01:45Sen. Kennedy: And that is not legal?
▶ 1:01:48Sen. Welch: It is not necessarily illegal. As the chairman indicated, states have been making decisions about using test strips. Most states I believe do use test strips. Ohio is a great example of a republican-led estate where they distributed across the state one million test strips for the purpose of allowing folks to save lives. That is really what it boils down to.
▶ 1:02:13Sen. Kennedy: Why wouldn't a state use a test strip?
▶ 1:02:17Sen. Welch: You would have to ask the states that don't use test strips.
▶ 1:02:22Sen. Booker: Mr. chairman, could I add some clarity to the questions Mr. is asking? It is not just after the drug has been taken, which is vital for emergency responders to know what is there. It is actually used by people who are using drugs, to test the drug before hand. This is what is called, something that both sides of the aisle have agreed on, this idea of harm reduction. You see this now common sense.
▶ 1:02:53Sen. Booker: People who are using drugs using test strips to see if I'm really taking an adderall, whatever drug that is illegal. We have done other things in these ways around other issues. Law enforcement with a clarion call, a voice from both sides of the aisle, say that the save lives. The medical community saves that seed -- says that these save lives.
▶ 1:03:22Sen. Booker: There is testimony before congress about these test strips saving lives. This is one of those common sense, bipartisan efforts that can improve this bill, that can help us as a committee save more lives. This is one of those things that is just so obvious. Again, with the knowledge we all have, this has to go back to the house. This is not us passing the bill and it is done. It has to go back to the house.
▶ 1:03:51Sen. Booker: And there is large bipartisan support in the house of representatives. If our goal here, in the face of this scourge, is to save as many lives as possible, why wouldn't we? What is the argument against doing this?
▶ 1:04:05Sen. Kennedy: Mr. chairman?
▶ 1:04:07Chair Grassley: Senator kennedy.
▶ 1:04:15Sen. Kennedy: We all know what's going on here. We have been asked on my side to oppose all amendments. I get it. But this bill has to go to the floor. This bill has to go back to the house. Maybe I am missing something, but I don't see the problem with this amendment.
▶ 1:04:43Sen. Kennedy: And I would hope that once the bill comes out of committee, maybe we could use this as a model to prepare for our work on section 230. We could sit down and talk about some of these amendments, as opposed to just summarily, all amendments cannot consider. Now, I'm not the expert that some of you are. I am on the bill.
▶ 1:05:12Sen. Kennedy: But there may be a reason not to do this amendment. But it sounds perfectly reasonable to me.
▶ 1:05:19Chair Grassley: Senator kennedy, march 31 --
▶ 1:05:25Sen. Kennedy: Cannot hear.
▶ 1:05:27Chair Grassley: I just was not speaking into the microphone, it is on. March 31 comes. Temporary, short-term scheduling of this drug runs out, and so I would like to get this bill passed and get it to the president as fast as we can. We are talking about maybe adding 230 to it.
▶ 1:05:52Sen. Kennedy: No, I misspoke.
▶ 1:05:56Chair Grassley: We ought to be willing to look at this amendment, but does it have to be on this bill when march 31 is such an important date, everything that congress has to do before now and then? Senator moody.
▶ 1:06:14Sen. Moody: Thank you come Mr. chairman. I was going to point that out. Not only dealing with a clock with the expiration of the temporary scheduling. I want to point out, I have heard, why are we rushing? No harm done if we wait. We all have the same sense of urgency. I don't know if that is the case. In the last congress, this was a topic of conversation because we are losing over 100,000 people a year to drug overdose.
▶ 1:06:44Sen. Moody: Just to put that in perspective, when we were dealing with this crisis in the 1980's when nancy reagan first said just so you know and it was a crisis, we were losing 3000 a year. We lose over 100,000 people a year, the majority of those two fentanyl. Law enforcement across the nation is begging for this bill. National organizations, state organizations, the dea hunter biden was saying we need to privately schedule fentanyl-related substances and pass the halt fentanyl act.
▶ 1:07:15Sen. Moody: We cannot wait. I appreciate all of these concerns you are addressing. Why are we rushing this, no need to hurry. Well, there is a need to hurry. There was a need to hurry in the 118th congress but this committee never brought it up.
▶ 1:07:30Sen. Moody: I can tell you as an attorney general, going around the state, hugging the parents that lost children over and over, them asking why nothing has been done nationwide on the problem that is killing them most, working age and fighting age americans, at a rate we have never seen in the history of our nation, and when world leaders are using the topic as negotiating leverage, you know they know that what they are doing or not doing is
▶ 1:08:01Sen. Moody: Affecting lives in our country. We have to do something, it's our responsibility. Not just do something at some point in time after we lose hundreds of thousands of more people. Right now. If you mean what you say when you say we share the same sense of urgency, stop offering amendments and let's get this past. It should have been done last congress. You hear the pleas of the mothers, they want us to pass something.
▶ 1:08:30Sen. Moody: I implore you, let's pass out of this committee a clean bill. Let's all get on the same page, not as a former attorney general or your new colleague, but as a mother with a teenage son dealing with his friends, all throughout the state of florida, let's vote this out. I would urge you not to support amendments to the bill.
▶ 1:08:51Chair Grassley: Senator durbin.
▶ 1:08:53Sen. Durbin: I just want to clarify one thing, my colleague from florida, at no time in the last four years did this law not apply. We extended on a temporary basis six times, so there has been coverage. This is making it permanent but it is the same protection that was offered during that same period of time, temporary basis.
▶ 1:09:14Chair Grassley: Senator kennedy.
▶ 1:09:16Sen. Kennedy: My colleague from florida is passionate about this and she makes very good points. I only point is, number one, this bill is going back to the house. Number two, I agree with everything the senator says. I don't believe that nancy reagan would say no to test strips. Makes sense to me. But I would suggest, respectfully and gently come Mr. chairman, not to tell you how to do your job.
▶ 1:09:47Sen. Kennedy: If you could sit down with the colleagues and find some way to add this amendment on the floor, if it makes sense. Maybe I'm not getting the whole story. That is the only point I am making. I am not trying to slow it up, I just want to get the damn thing right. I don't understand why test strips are not a good thing. >> for the record, we are not trying to hold us up either. The way this works, it has to leave this committee.
▶ 1:10:16Sen. Kennedy: I expect it will be voted out today which is good. Has to go to the floor. Then it has to go back to the house because they were republican amendment to the bill. That is where it has to go. Nothing changes that schedule if we agree on sensible noncontroversial bipartisan improvements to the bill. Still go to the senate floor, still goes over to the house. There is zero delay associated with that.
▶ 1:10:43Sen. Kennedy: It is just a question, as senator kennedy said, providing the requisite amount of time and getting it right. Let's get it right.
▶ 1:10:53Chair Grassley: Before I call on senator padilla, you see the problem with this amendment being on this bill going back to the house, as what senator whitehouse just said, senator kennedy said the same thing. There are some states that don't like the strip thing.
▶ 1:11:17Chair Grassley: They don't like it, so that will bring some opposition that is unpredictable in the house of representatives. That is why I would like to pass this bill as is, look to the legitimacy of some of these amendments on other pieces of legislation that we might have. Senator padilla.
▶ 1:11:38Sen. Padilla: , thank you, Mr. chairman. I want to speak briefly in support of this amendment. For the edification of my colleagues on the other side of the aisle, I agree with senator kennedy. Senator moody has reminded us that law enforcement wants this bill asap. Law enforcement also wants test strips.
▶ 1:11:58Sen. Padilla: In fact, the majority witness from the recent hearing that we had, sheriff barnes from california, testify to this committee, test strips are necessary to addressing this crisis, so it is more than germane. It is more than appropriate. We will not slow the bill down. In fact, it is part of responsibly addressing this crisis.
▶ 1:12:18Chair Grassley: Senator welch.
▶ 1:12:21Sen. Welch: We all understand that at various times, the other party offers an amendment that is not on the level in the sense that it is about killing the bill as opposed to improving the bill. We have an opportunity here to take up an amendment, in my view, that would improve the bill, in no way undercuts the objectives of the bill.
▶ 1:12:48Sen. Welch: The reason I think is important, there are about four states that have outlawed the test strips. Their reason for outlawing the test strips, they are saying that they are quote paraphernalia.
▶ 1:13:05Sen. Welch: There is so much anxiety that we all have about drugs, also anxiety politically about not wanting to be on the side of facilitating any distribution of drug paraphernalia. But that is just wrong, it is not paraphernalia. It is used for health and for medical response. And there is also the question -- and I'm sure you are sensitive to this, Mr.
▶ 1:13:35Sen. Welch: Chairman -- of wanting to defer to states. But in the area of drug enforcement and drug definition, drug scheduling, that really is very much a federal function. So I don't see this as an invasion of the legislative authority of our respective states.
▶ 1:13:59Sen. Welch: It would be so wonderful, all of us feel like if we can get back to doing amendments that had as the goal to improve the bill. Where we have got basically 46 of our states seeing this as a medical benefit for law enforcement by the way. It is unbelievable the way that law enforcement has to show up at all of these situations and then go back to the same person.
▶ 1:14:28Sen. Welch: These testers will facilitate their response, facilitate recovery. C1 thank you, Mr. chairman. >> Mr. chairman, I don't doubt the good faith of my friend from vermont in offering the amendment, but I would point out that there are four states that have contrary policy as embodied in the amendment which would mean that federal law would preempt those states.
▶ 1:15:00Sen. Welch: I have a sneaking suspicion that the senators from those four states would not support a federal law that would preempt their state law and as a practical matter what that would mean is that wu -- we would be in a lengthy process on the senate floor of getting to cloture and taking up to a week of floor time to process the bill, only then to have to deal with the house with the thin
▶ 1:15:30Sen. Welch: Majorities the chairman has pointed out which may be an impediment to passage. I would tell my friend from vermont, I would be happy to work with you on this, but I do believe that to the point the chairman made is that this amendment is adopted, no matter how meritorious it may seem, it will basically prevent us from acting on time by the time the temporary listing of the drug
▶ 1:16:01Sen. Welch: Expires in march. So I would just urge those practical considerations in saying that we should oppose the amendment now but not with the idea that we will kill the idea for the amendment but work in another context at another time and make sure that this current legislation passes in a timely basis.
▶ 1:16:27Senator Schiff: I voted against the bill in the house because I had concerns over it inhibiting the ability of scientists to do research on fentanyl and provide a way to more efficaciously treat those who are at risk of losing their lives having ingested fentanyl. I would love to see if we can fix that.
▶ 1:16:51Senator Schiff: I know senator booker has an amendment that would address that which I think should be a commonsense improvement to the bill. Mr. welch's amendment I think would be an unmitigated positive addition to the bill. A lot of the fentanyl deaths are young people who think they are ordering something that will keep them awake to do their final exams. They shouldn't be ordering things off the internet, but they do.
▶ 1:17:18Senator Schiff: If they had a test strip and many do have access to them now, they could find out what they ordered is going to kill them, because what they have been sent by some anonymous party through a social media platform is actually laced with enough fentanyl to kill five people. There is no question that this amendment by Mr. welch will save lives. It is not even debatable.
▶ 1:17:49Senator Schiff: Why do states oppose this? I don't know. I suppose the theory is if you make test strips available, then you are encouraging people to order drugs. That logic has never made sense. Young people are going to continue tragically to order things they think will help them get through final exams.
▶ 1:18:17Senator Schiff: The only question is whether they are going to have a tool to potentially save their lives. Since this has to go back to the house anyway, why not adopt additional amendments that will grow support that address concerns like the one Mr. booker has, make improvements like Mr. welch is offering?
▶ 1:18:38Senator Schiff: I would like to support this bill, but I would also like to make sure we are not injuring medical research and that we are improving at with commonsense measures like Mr. welch. >> Mr. chairman. Can I just ask senator welch, what are the four states that currently ban these test strips? This has been an interesting debate.
▶ 1:19:06Senator Schiff: Is the amendment aimed at overturning the law of those four states?
▶ 1:19:13Sen. Welch: My understanding is that north dakota, texas, and iowa, Mr. chairman. We are working on getting you the fourth. Indiana.
▶ 1:19:26Sen. Hawley: And just so I understand, the purpose of the amendment for states that already have these, the amendment has no effect. It would be to overturn the law in senator cornyn's state.
▶ 1:19:40Sen. Welch: Most of the states that have it, it is addressed to fentanyl and most of the states don't include xylazine, so that is additional and that is something senator scott and I are concerned about, to include xylazine. There would be two effects. The four states would be required to have it and the states that do have it with fentanyl, would have it with xylazine as well. >> Mr. chairman?
▶ 1:20:11Chair Grassley: Senator kennedy.
▶ 1:20:13Senator Kennedy: Is this amendment going to kill the bill in the house? Senator cornyn? >> well, I suspect that the house members from those states, there are 38 from them in my state and given the thin margins in the house, it could well prevent the house from passing it.
▶ 1:20:46Senator Kennedy: The purpose of it would be to preempt existing state law in the state of texas and three other states.
▶ 1:20:51Sen. Kennedy: Do you mind if I ask my colleague from florida? >> repeat your question.
▶ 1:20:59Sen. Kennedy: Is this amendment going to kill the bill in the house? >> you just heard four states who have conflicting law and there was a lot more in some of those states over there that are not here. Here is the biggest thing. I think we want to bring this up as quickly as possible, right?
▶ 1:21:19Sen. Kennedy: I get that part. >> it doesn't mean that this can't be debated under another bill at a future time and I would encourage that on so many subjects related to fentanyl, that we discuss it again and other proposals. This isn't a one bill fixes everything. This is something that all stakeholder organizations, law enforcement and those dealing with the problem, have been asking for for really long time.
▶ 1:21:49Sen. Kennedy: Again, I will go back to all of these ideas could have been brought up in legislation and discussed in the last congress. I know there is some discussion about what we kept temporarily scheduling it. Ok, but you had all of that time to talk about this. Let's keep the bill clean, vote no on the amendment. It will be more likely we can act quicker in the senate even if we were to bring up the house bill if we keep this claim.
▶ 1:22:16Chair Grassley: Can we vote on senator welch's amendment? No by proxy. >> [indiscernible] >> no. >> [indiscernible] >> no by proxy. >> [indiscernible] >> no by proxy. >> [indiscernible] >> [indiscernible] >> [indiscernible] >> no by proxy. >> [indiscernible] >> no. >> [indiscernible] >> no by proxy.
▶ 1:22:46Chair Grassley: >> [indiscernible] >> no by proxy. >> [indiscernible] >> no. >> no. >> [indiscernible] >> aye. >> [indiscernible] >> aye. >> aye by proxy. >> aye. >> aye. >> [indiscernible] >> aye. >> [indiscernible] >> aye. >> [indiscernible] >> aye.
▶ 1:23:15Chair Grassley: >> [indiscernible] >> aye. >> no. >> [indiscernible]
▶ 1:23:27Chair Grassley: Ok. Senator booker, are you ready? >> that's nice of you. Mr. chairman, I have an amendment to offer. I call up amendment ell 25154.
▶ 1:23:47Chair Grassley: It would require the department of justice in consultation with the department of education to issue a report on the barriers to fentanyl and fentanyl related substance abuse education and best practices on this education in schools.
▶ 1:24:03Chair Grassley: Education about the dangers of fentanyl is critical, especially because fentanyl can be found in counterfeit pills, sometimes in fatal doses and unknown to the consumer and apparently many of these consumers are young people, who are getting these items online. We need to make sure children know this and other dangers with fentanyl.
▶ 1:24:27Chair Grassley: Two weeks ago, we heard from witnesses about the work that victims of illicit drugs and the devon noren foundation are doing to educate children about the dangers of fentanyl and a witness spoke about a stack of letters he had from students who had no idea about the dangers of fentanyl, but both witnesses at that hearing spoke of the challenges they and other organizations faced in bringing
▶ 1:24:58Chair Grassley: Their programs to schools and communities as well as trouble finding funding to do this education. My amendment would require the doj to study this issue and issue recommendations on how to best educate children on the dangers of fentanyl and fentanyl related substances. This is a common sense amendment . Mr.
▶ 1:25:25Chair Grassley: Chairman, when I was listening to the witnesses at that hearing, I was very taken with the commitment of the parents who had lost these children tragically to this drug and they are doing it mainly through their own resources and this is an area we ought to be able to provide some support.
▶ 1:25:49Chair Grassley: My amendment is very common sense and it will lend to the education on the dangers of the substance. Call for a roll call vote.
▶ 1:26:02Chair Grassley: I've got to find out -- [indiscernible] call the roll. >> no by proxy. No by proxy. No by proxy. No by proxy. No by proxy. No by proxy. >> [indiscernible] >> no by proxy. >> [indiscernible] >> no by proxy.
▶ 1:26:34Chair Grassley: >> no by proxy. No by proxy. >> aye. >> aye by proxy. >> [indiscernible] >> aye by proxy. >> [indiscernible] >> aye. >> [indiscernible] >> aye by proxy. >> aye. >> aye. >> aye.
▶ 1:27:04Chair Grassley: >> aye. >> aye. >> no.
▶ 1:27:14Chair Grassley: Ok. The amendment is defeated 12-10. Because of the vote on the senate floor we will adjourn until the call.