▶ 0:15:59>> today the>> committee meets to consider two critical nominations, scott kupor and eric ueland to be deputy director of management at the office of management and budget. These positions are quite important to our federal governt to our federal governn the size and scope of federal government itself.
▶ 0:16:25The federal workforce has ballooned over 2 million civilian employees not including contractors, grantees, uniformed military. This means hundreds of thousands of bureaucrats sheltered by a system that protects performance mediocrity and resists reform. We have seen agencies like the irs failed the people in real time and yet what was washington's answer?
▶ 0:16:56More funding, bigger payrolls, less accountability. It is not just bad policy, it is a misreading of the problem. You don't fix a broken machine by adding more broken parts. That's why it's important what we do here today. I believe Mr. kupor and Mr. ueland are accountable to the taxpayers they serve.
▶ 0:17:25I look forward to supporting both of their nominations. At this time, I will recognize the ranking member for his opening statement.
▶ 0:17:37Sen. Peters: We are considering nominees for two positions that are critical for the workforce. I must raise an issue we have heard about, the administration's use of unofficial messaging app and nongovernment email addresses to discuss highly sensitive information related to this nations security. This committee has jurisdiction over cybersecurity as well as federal workers retention, laws.
▶ 0:18:07Sen. Peters: I hope we are able to have a hearing on this important issue. I hope we could raise the issue about having a hearing on what we have seen. Turning to today's hearing, let me be clear, the past 2.5 months the administration has engaged in an unprecedented assault on federal workers across government.
▶ 0:18:37Sen. Peters: The office of management and budget along with elon musk and doge has been the center of the reckless approach to eliminating programs as well as personnel. They have led efforts to indiscriminately fire tens of thousands of employees including longtime public servants who were recently promoted due to their exemplary performance.
▶ 0:19:07Sen. Peters: The administration has engaged in mass firings without any analysis of the impact to services. Communities across our nation rely on. This includes eliminating entire offices dedicated to fighting infectious diseases. Technology modernization, public transparency, and civil rights.
▶ 0:19:33Sen. Peters: The president unilaterally stripped long-standing collective bargaining rights from 1.5 million workers across the government. These are not actions that will make government more efficient and more accountable. They will cause permanent damage to agencies and their ability to effectively serve the american people. Past administrations have pursued reforms. Restructuring and force, aimed at saving taxpayer money and increasing deficiency.
▶ 0:20:05Sen. Peters: The destruction just for the sake of destruction. Not only is this clearly chaotic and senseless, many of them have been found by the courts to be illegal. I appreciate the meeting with each of you to discuss these concerns in my office.
▶ 0:20:28Sen. Peters: There's a lot we may disagree on I believe we share some of the same goals including attracting and retaining top talent to serve in the federal workforce. We are deeply concerned about how the actions will undermine the ability to attract the best and brightest to work in the federal government.
▶ 0:20:47Sen. Peters: Americans are watching as federal workers, some of whom who have dedicated their entire career to public service find out they are fired from a friday night email or when they show up to work and are turned away by security. People considering entering the civil service are hearing people demonize federal workers who promised to put them in trauma. Some of the most successful and innovative recruitment programs have been halted.
▶ 0:21:17Sen. Peters: This is not the way to attract the next generation of talent. I have repeatedly called on the administration to explain and justify their actions. I received no engagement, no information in response to oversight request. No attempt to work with congress on thoughtful bipartisan reforms.
▶ 0:21:43Sen. Peters: You have been serving since january, I hope you will be transparent with us today and provide some answers about the administration's recent actions. Mr. kupor, you will lead policy across the government and I hope to hear from you today about how things will change under your leadership and how you will work with congress and this committee to pursue reforms in a thoughtful and collaborative manner.
▶ 0:22:12Sen. Peters: I look forward to having a productive discussion with both of you.
▶ 0:22:16Chair Paul: It's the practice of this committee to swear in. Mr. kupor and Mr. ueland. Please rise and raise your right hand, do you swear the testimony you swear the testimony will give before this committee will be the truth, the whole truth, nothing but the truth, so help you god? Scott kupor has worked as an investor in the technology industry for nearly 30 years.
▶ 0:22:48Chair Paul: He's a graduate of stanford university and stanford law school. He joined one of the earliest web hosting businesses where he led a variety of options leading up to the company's acquisition in 2007. In 2009 he joined with ben horwitz to start a new venture capital firm backing promising early-stage technology startups.
▶ 0:23:15Chair Paul: He has invested in and sits on the boards of numerous health care technology startups and written a similar book on venture capital industry. You are recognized for the opening statement.
▶ 0:23:31Mr. Kupor: Thank you for the opportunity to appear before you today. I also like to thank president trump for providing this important opportunity. I grew up in houston texas. I lived in northern california for the better part of 30 years. I wife and I have been married 20 years and have been blessed with three amazing daughters.
▶ 0:23:58Mr. Kupor: I spent nearly my entire professional career in technology. First as an investment banker and then at a start up. I helped build one of the most successful venture capital firms growing from three people to more than 600 people and $45 billion in assets. Having spent my entire career you might ask why am I sitting here today?
▶ 0:24:25Mr. Kupor: I believe fully aligned with the goals of the trump administration. The U.S. is on an unsustainable fiscal path. It is not only necessary believe it is a matter of fundamental emphasis for the american people it's unfair ordinary americans must find a way to live within their means and the government is free to spend as it wishes and pile up insurmountable debt
▶ 0:24:55Mr. Kupor: On america's children and grandchildren. I will work with the president, congress, agencies to help write our financial footing. It's time the federal government recognizes the same. Restructuring is no doubt hard but we can and should do this in a way that is surgical as president trump has said, transparent, and respects the dignity and humanity of the federal work orders.
▶ 0:25:23Mr. Kupor: The federal workforce should also be the enemy of the world. We should also enable committed federal employees to do their best work every day on behalf of the american people. Measured risk-taking and merit versus one that has legacy, risk avoidance. This is a matter of fairness. It should not be hamstrung by an organizational system.
▶ 0:25:53Mr. Kupor: We can and should do better. Design a talent recruitment, development and management system that empowers federal employees to provide the best service to all american. One in which innovative thinking drives decision making. Why am I the right person for the job? I come from the private sector and recognize the government is not the private sector. The government might have different goals and injectors -- objectives. The design was largely the same.
▶ 0:26:30Mr. Kupor: I led numerous organizations from five person to 10 person teams to a 1300 person globally distributed business. Through trial and error I have learned the following principles , first, everything starts and ends with objectives. First, provide the best services to the american people. Do so while preserving the long-term liability.
▶ 0:27:01Mr. Kupor: Sustained excessive deficit spending violates these objectives. Incentives drive behavior. If we want high quality services we need a set of incentives, corresponding metrics, and a system that rewards desired behavior. It derives from who has the biggest budget and headcount. Third, accountability matters. We have a broken performance management system.
▶ 0:27:31Mr. Kupor: 69% of federal employees are ranked above average and 0.4% are ranked as below average. This simply defies logic. The system is unfair to federal employees who are top performers. A players want to be surrounded by a players. Great leaders valley team members, communicate not just the work but also the why and are transparent with their actions.
▶ 0:28:01Mr. Kupor: Particularly during restructuring the amending -- remaining employees based on how well they manage this process. Getting this right is absolutely critical. The federal government should be the shining beacon on which all great organizations look. We should enable those hard-working members of our team and also attract the best and brightest from our universities, community college, trade schools, the private sector.
▶ 0:28:28Mr. Kupor: Every federal employee should be surrounded by smart, hard-working people. Be able to progress in their career and develop schools and be rewarded and held accountable to the organization's overall objectives. As americans, we should demand no less. I thank you for your time and look forward to your questions.
▶ 0:28:48Chair Paul: I'm pleased this morning to be joined by former senator don nichols who will be doing the introduction.
▶ 0:28:56Mr. Nichols: Thank you. >> the microphone please.
▶ 0:29:09Mr. Nickles: I'm not used to sitting on this side. I served on this committee many years ago and have many fond memories of it. I'm delighted to be here to be here to introduce my very good friend that I had the pleasure of working with, I've known eric and his wife, his kids. Charlotte works in the republican cloakroom, which I think is kind of special.
▶ 0:29:41Mr. Nickles: I became policy committee chairman way back when in 1991. I took bill armstrong's place as one of my mentors in the senate. He said I have several good people. One of the bright shining stars was this young guy, eric ueland. I was chairman for six years.
▶ 0:30:07Mr. Nickles: It didn't take long to realize we had a shining star who was a little bit smarter than anyone in the room. He was invaluable to me. I became republican with after that. He was my chief of staff. He was chief of staff as a set of he was chief of staff to senator enzi. He was chief of staff to ranking member of the budget committee.
▶ 0:30:37Mr. Nickles: He was chief of staff for senator santorum. He rose to the top. In any position in the senate. He's qualified. He gets this because he is so smart. He is also trustworthy and truthful. He listens. Ranking member peters, it is the democrats as well as the republicans.
▶ 0:31:01Mr. Nickles: I have been in countless meetings and I know he was involved in countless continuing resolutions, appropriation bills, big bills. All kinds of legislation. He was one of the individuals that could help make the senate work. He helped us navigate some real crisis in the senate. On 911i remember it looked like yesterday.
▶ 0:31:29Mr. Nickles: The anthrax attacks on the senators and others. President clinton's impeachment, those were perilous times. A time that we had 50-50 votes in the senate. That was awkward, it was challenging, it was difficult. He was one of the people that had the cool, calm, intelligence to help make things work. He did it very well.
▶ 0:31:58Mr. Nickles: You will be pleased to know he has helped you, I was budget chairman for a couple of years. Vote a ramas were not fun. I wanted to reduce the time. Eric was responsible for amendments basically sends the senate amendments. You don't know this but he's going to save you hours of time because it is still the rules today.
▶ 0:32:26Mr. Nickles: He banned amendments that were purely precatory. After his senate tenure which was extensive, he served in the first trump administration as deputy director -- director of public counsel and director of legislative affairs.
▶ 0:32:51Mr. Nickles: He did a little time in the state department also as director of office of foreign resources. He was vice chairman on the commission for international freedom. A group that confronts threats to religious freedom around the world. They do outstanding work. That legislation was passed by senator lieberman and myself.
▶ 0:33:23Mr. Nickles: I think eric ueland is immensely qualified. You will have a person that knows the senate, congress, knows the administration. They worked tirelessly to do a good job for you, country, I urge your support of him. I hope he has a strong bipartisan vote.
▶ 0:33:47Mr. Nickles: I know my colleagues if tom daschle and others that I served with that worked with eric, they would be supporting him as well. That would include others. We negotiate, we work. I think eric ueland is a real gift to this country. I'm honored and pleased he would give his time to continue his public service.
▶ 0:34:17Mr. Nickles: I think the country will be better for it.
▶ 0:34:20Chair Paul: You have a lot to live up to them. Mr. ueland, you are recognized.
▶ 0:34:28Mr. Ueland: Thank you very much for holding this hearing this morning on our nominations. I very much appreciate the opportunity to appear before all of you today. This committee has a strong history I also greatly appreciate the trust and honor president trump placed in me with this nomination.
▶ 0:34:58Mr. Ueland: Of course, none of this could happen without the support of our family. I/o them and I thank them. I am grateful for the introduction by a former boss and friend of mine, don nickles. It's an incredible honor that he's here speaking on my behalf this morning. Mr.
▶ 0:35:25Mr. Ueland: Chairman, the deputy director for management celebrates its 35th birthday this year. Created as a key official to support the best financial management, over the years it has become a go to resource for a variety of tasks including federal performance and improvement, governance and policy, put policy, p linking data to spendg and how to provide service.
▶ 0:35:56Mr. Ueland: The deputy director for management was positioned to assist and support departments in agencies as they drive change and bring reforms to the federal government. Under the direction of the director and deputy director the staff could be leaders in assessing the processes and operations that have made the federal government too large and too inefficient while ensuring the american people receive the services they deserve and need.
▶ 0:36:29Mr. Ueland: This cannot be done successfully without partnerships and communication. I will make it my mission to wear out this committee and any interested members in congress who solicit input and share our force. I'm hopeful we can find places to cooperate and collaborate to tackle the many challenges we all face together.
▶ 0:36:53Mr. Ueland: We clarify problems, think through solutions and help agencies and departments build a more responsive federal government in the 21st century. We take any opportunity we can to explain the problems and discover the fixes we propose. Any change is hard. Changes to congress and the public of what is at hand, the plans we have and what we are implementing.
▶ 0:37:24Mr. Ueland: We reduce confusion and concern while driving better results and everyone has a stake in seeing succeed. They worked to ensure agencies create the best policy and financial management. There are offices of federal financial management. Including policy and delivery through federal procurement policy.
▶ 0:37:52Mr. Ueland: We work hard with the personnel management and performance evaluation through the office of performance and personnel management. We heighten cybersecurity and enhance the functionality of what the public expects through the office of federal chief information officer. The ddm works hard to understand the date of the federal government has and how it relates to the programs and project the government in congress funds.
▶ 0:38:21Mr. Ueland: It is responsible for figuring out how oversized the federal real estate footprint is. How it is misaligned with taxpayer needs. What we have, what we rent, what we do. Under the direction of the director and the deputy director , it is my job to ensure we meet our statutory responsibilities while finding new ways to deliver.
▶ 0:38:49Mr. Ueland: Everywhere I have worked, I tackle new challenges, mastered ways and tools to deliver results, collaborated closely with colleagues, built outstanding teams and ultimately delivered success. I'm excited about the work we face and the chance to serve and learn under the director of management at omb. I look forward to answering the questions you have.
▶ 0:39:22Mr. Ueland: Mr. chairman, senator peters, thank you.
▶ 0:39:26Chair Paul: It is the standard practice for the chairman to ask the nominees the following question, do agree to comply with any request or summons to appear and testify before any constituted committee of congress if you are confirmed? >> yes. >> I do.
▶ 0:39:47Chair Paul: I will recognize senator johnson.
▶ 0:39:51Sen. Johnson: Thank both of you gentlemen for your willingness to this aspect. You are obviously from the private sector. It has certain disciplines. They have to balance the budget or everybody loses their job. The federal government doesn't have to balance its budget.
▶ 0:40:21Sen. Johnson: By large federal employees are immune from losing their job. They don't show up for work and they expect things to be employed. How that impacts the effectiveness of the federal government.
▶ 0:40:36Mr. Kupor: I agree a foundational part is accountability as you have talked about. That requires protecting individuals. We should look to a system where they should be rewarded and rewarded handsomely. We need to find ways for them to find opportunities elsewhere.
▶ 0:41:07Sen. Johnson: Does anybody not much we spent last year? Nobody answered. I got one answer from the press, it was over $1 trillion. That is discretionary spending, approximately 25% of total spending. The other 25% is mandatory. We never look at it. We have gone to probably about $7.3 trillion this year. 63% increase of populations.
▶ 0:41:36Sen. Johnson: I think you are well aware of the different pre-pandemic spending options I have put on the table. What I want to talk about is the process for returning to a pre-pandemic level. We have never had a process to control federal spending. The appropriation committees were initially established because they were big spenders. That didn't work. The budget act didn't work.
▶ 0:42:06Sen. Johnson: The budget control act with discretionary spending for a couple of years. I proposed a camera panel. To do something the private sector does all the time. A budget review meeting. It goes through the 2400 individual lines of expenditures and asked the administration to justify the spending.
▶ 0:42:38Sen. Johnson: 2014 under obama or 1998 under clinton. You have a lot of experience. You have seen what extent the administration looks at the detail, we don't. Congress doesn't even consider 75% of the budget. It is pretty much what did we spend last year, are we going to increase 2%, 3%, 4%?
▶ 0:43:07Sen. Johnson: We are sliding discretionary spending into other mandatory. $642 billion to 1.3 trillion this year. Talk to me about how we could develop a process like the private sector to go line by line to go line by line to the federal budget cooperatively. The end result is something we can all embrace.
▶ 0:43:40Sen. Johnson: I appreciate the questions and absolutely we will discuss this. I know you have had a chance to discuss this with the president and the deputy director. The deputy director are going through this line by line evaluation.
▶ 0:43:58Sen. Johnson: As well in working to engage with you and other members of the house about where matters stand, potential alternatives sharing information and ideas to ensure that the maximum extent possible we are as unified as possible on the budget path and trajectory going forward.
▶ 0:44:23Sen. Johnson: To your point about the amount of money being spent, one of the challenges that you know has not been noticed by the press is how much of that spending is obligatory on the federal debt. It is something that when you joined the senate was much lower, around $100 billion a year. It exceeds almost any discretionary advocate big expense.
▶ 0:44:54Sen. Johnson: We have a challenge for the $36 trillion of debt that we already owe. The public debt that we owe to ourselves on top of that, nearly $45 trillion. Being methodical, careful, being careful about where to go is something with both ends of pennsylvania avenue.
▶ 0:45:26Sen. Johnson: I'm just asking for a commitment to work with us on developing a process that actually achieves pre-pandemic level spending.
▶ 0:45:40Mr. Ueland: I know you have discussed directly about ways to engage in that conversation.
▶ 0:45:45Chair Paul: Senator peters.
▶ 0:45:48Sen. Peters: Mr. kupor, do you think input from federal unions is important and invaluable for developing personnel policy and dividing guidance to other agencies on personnel management?
▶ 0:46:07Mr. Kupor: I think input from any party that is part of a political force is a yes.
▶ 0:46:16Sen. Peters: How do you plan on dealing with this in the incoming role as director?
▶ 0:46:23Mr. Kupor: We need to do the hard work of actually looking line by line and function by function about where the organizations and functions we could support. We need to work with all facets of the labor force to the extent that there are cuts that are appropriate in the organization we have to deliver the services that are appropriate to the american people.
▶ 0:46:49Sen. Peters: How do you plan to engage with federal unions?
▶ 0:46:54Mr. Kupor: I will very much have an open door if anybody wants to provide feedback.
▶ 0:47:02Sen. Peters: Doesn't concern you that the feedback to eliminate collective-bargaining rights might make that engagement more challenging?
▶ 0:47:12Mr. Kupor: My understanding is it does recognize the president has the ability to designate certain areas as national security where federal employment may be less relevant than other places. I haven't had a chance to study it detail. I'm sure opm will be a part of that process. 1.5 million is a pretty broadening of the scope.
▶ 0:47:38Mr. Kupor: It hasn't been done by any president either republican or democratic. Are you concerned about the impact of the executive order and what it should be on agency, more outcom -- morale, performance providing care to our veterans as well as responding to emergencies?
▶ 0:48:02Mr. Ueland: I'm excited about the opportunity the executive order lays out forgiving the federal government the ability to align mission with responsibility. And ensure at the end of the day as Mr. cooper has testified that we have the highest quality workforce assigned to the mission, task.
▶ 0:48:30Sen. Peters: Will you take any steps to actually measure the impact of this executive order and the services that the americans rely on?
▶ 0:48:40Mr. Ueland: I haven't considered whether or not to measure or how to measure the impact. It should go beyond the impact for workers. It should go to the general private sector as well. How are our formulations to join the federal workforce but the private sector providing goods and services as well to the general public.
▶ 0:49:11Sen. Peters: How will this impact the services that americans rely on? I'm surprised to say or hear that you don't know if you will actually measure that. In running a business, you measure everything. You want to accomplish not the political rhetoric but it makes a difference on the ground.
▶ 0:49:40Sen. Peters: We are talking about the american people and you are telling me you won't measure that?
▶ 0:49:45Mr. Ueland: I believe that is a bit of a mischaracterization. I am not yet having had the privilege or confirmation if that's what the senate elects to do. Understanding appropriately where we are, where we are going and if at all the best way to measure what is ongoing and as it said. One that is occurring in the federal government and out as well.
▶ 0:50:16Mr. Ueland: I'm not going to commit to taking specific courses of action. I tried to stay away from the responsibilities.
▶ 0:50:27Sen. Peters: Make sure that it is actually working. We will make sure things are working. Based on your private sector experience, if you could give a quick answer to the following action, does it make sense to start a restructuring by firing folks who have just been promoted because of outstanding performance?
▶ 0:50:51Mr. Kupor: It's very hard for me to comment on things.
▶ 0:50:59Sen. Peters: Would you fire someone who is outstanding? Congratulations. Does that make good sense?
▶ 0:51:06Mr. Kupor: Directly in my written responses, I think the process will require transparency and communication and respect the humanity of the workforce. I believe the right way to do this is through communication and respecting the rights and roles of the employees.
▶ 0:51:28Sen. Peters: Doesn't make sense to fire everyone from a newly created office is necessary and should be running, does that make sense?
▶ 0:51:40Mr. Kupor: The right thing to do would be what are the functions we need to do? Is there some other way to provide those services?
▶ 0:51:52Sen. Peters: You would think about it before you did it. That is not what happened. That is the process we see going forward. One other question if I may. Is it wise for business leaders to fire people with highly specialized critical skills just because they are new?
▶ 0:52:13Mr. Kupor: I think the right way to do things if we are going to fire somebody or eliminate a service, we should make sure there is a way to deliver those services.
▶ 0:52:28Sen. Moody: You were very measured in that response. The last administration was walking out the door. The money they spent should absolutely be reviewed until I consider -- until it is considered. I want to thank you for being here and thank you for using your gifts, talent, expertise to serve the country. Probably doesn't pay as well as it makes. I respect people that do that.
▶ 0:53:00Sen. Moody: I also say thank you to your family. I have found it is harder on the families than those going through the career transition. I appreciate you being here with them today. We thank you for supporting them through this.
▶ 0:53:26Sen. Moody: I happen to think and I am only two months in, I have seen a lot of confirmation hearings. I happen to think this specific hearing is the most important that we will conduct.
▶ 0:53:42Sen. Moody: A lot of people don't know a lot about the office of personnel management, office management and budget with this kind of leader at the helm these are two of the most important positions in this administration.
▶ 0:54:02Sen. Moody: When president trump was elected he said I'm going to address the sprawling federal government, the wasteful spending and the results showed this administration was given a mandate to examine this unelected federal bureaucracy that has ballooned over the decades and return it to being
▶ 0:54:34Sen. Moody: Accountable and ultimately to we the people. You are coming in at a time when you have a leader that is willing to be brave enough to have the -- to make the hard decisions and be bold about that upfront. In many respects, probably a good idea. These will be some tough choices on spending. We have to make them.
▶ 0:55:01Sen. Moody: At some point some leader will be in the position where they have to say enough is enough, we have to do something. It is not right not to do something and step up.
▶ 0:55:15Sen. Moody: You are coming in at a time where you are expecting not only to bring your expertise to these roles, one of the reason president trump put together such a great team, it is not just expertise in the role, a very crucial trait to communicate the importance of the actions being taken to the american people.
▶ 0:55:38Sen. Moody: Rightfully so and any time transition and change if the public doesn't understand how we got here or what is going on, I happen to think, americans are like what do you mean we spend our hard earned tax money on this work and wasteful nonsensical program that could -- totally conflicts with my own values but american values and interest.
▶ 0:56:04Sen. Moody: I also think they are shocked in many respects how fiscally irresponsible we have been and how we find ourselves and how we step in and take charge. Coming into these roles, I will start with you.
▶ 0:56:22Sen. Moody: How do you expect you will be able to take on that role of communicating transparently, responsibly in a way that understands the american public's anxiety going through a necessary of reevaluation?
▶ 0:56:37Mr. Kupor: Thank you senator. I believe communication is absolutely critical. We have been through many types of restructurings. When you do things where don't communicate the narrative but also why we are doing and what the communications are.
▶ 0:57:02Mr. Kupor: One of the things for us to do at opm's be a leader in talking about what we are doing, why we are doing it, we could take the hard actions we are talking about. We are talking about people's jobs. I don't think we should confuse that with the requirement to bring people along and understand exactly why we are doing what we are doing.
▶ 0:57:21Mr. Ueland: I associate myself with both Mr. kupor's comments give one of the things senator nickles mentioned is it is on the communication side. A need for clarity, message, purposefulness of advocacy, I talked about to the committee, congress, the workforce, the general public.
▶ 0:57:48Mr. Ueland: If I am confirmed it will be something that will be part of the work that I do as deputy director for management.
▶ 0:57:56Sen. Hassan: Thank you for this hearing. To the nominees thank you for being here today, congratulations to you and your families. This is a big day for you and them. Before I ask you some questions I want to say quick word on the trump administration use of signal with a journalist included in the chat.
▶ 0:58:21Sen. Hassan: It is imperative that a thorough, transparent investigation be done into the use of a commercial text application to discuss the timing of a U.S. military attack. The fact that this administration won't acknowledge that is an insult to the men and women in uniform. We know members of the trump national security council have used personal email accounts to conduct government business.
▶ 0:58:51Sen. Hassan: I hope this committee will hold a hearing on this serious issue. I also want to start, I was listening to the chair about the need to fire the federal workforce. I want to talk about the impact these random arbitrary mass filings are having on my constituents.
▶ 0:59:13Sen. Hassan: Just this week the administration essentially closed the entire office for low income energy home assistance programs established by congress in 1981. It served 6.2 million people from maine to texas. It might be spring here. In texas, it will be really hot this summer.
▶ 0:59:39Sen. Hassan: One of the purposes of that program is to make sure people could stay safe and cool enough in their homes during a blazing summer. The administration, nothing transparent about this, they just shot the office even though the money has been appropriated. The trump tariffs are adding 10% to my constituents home bills. This is real stuff.
▶ 1:00:11Sen. Hassan: When we talk about arbitrary firings, which is what this administration has done, we are talking about a level of harm to our constituencies, it is real and does not meet the vision established by this congress. I would suggest that at omb, if you want to gut a program you better come back to congress because that's what the constitution says you are going to do.
▶ 1:00:41Sen. Hassan: It is something that I could ask of every nominee, if directed by the president to take action that would break the law, would you follow the law or the president's directives?
▶ 1:00:52Mr. Kupor: I certainly do not expect the president to do anything of that effect but I will comply with all laws and the constitution.
▶ 1:01:00Mr. Ueland: The president has made crystal clear that he will follow the constitution and the law. You will not ever ask inferior officers to violate the law. Absolutely I will be able to follow the constitution and the law.
▶ 1:01:24Sen. Hassan: The person you will be reporting to sat here and said he knew better than the united states supreme court about the cans into shallot -- constitutionality. I'm disappointed that both of you seem to either not read the news or not observed basic facts , the president of the united states has been violating the law on a regular basis since he took office.
▶ 1:01:49Sen. Hassan: I also want to explain to you Mr. kupor, the limits of the opm's authority. If someone were to say to you I need you to fire a veteran who works for the v.a. Because they posted something online in their personal capacity that I don't like, would you fire them?
▶ 1:02:12Mr. Kupor: My understanding of the restrictions are we could provide guidance but opm does not have the authority to go in and do the firing. That would have to be conducted by the agencies themselves.
▶ 1:02:26Sen. Hassan: Do you think it's appropriate to fire and appropriate to fire an employee providing expert service because of their political views?
▶ 1:02:35Mr. Kupor: We should be valuating people based on the skills they are doing. Otherwise, we need to evaluate people based on performance objectives. The government may not interfere with free speech. Iave one more question. In january, president trump illegally fired several inspectors general including the inspector general for opm.
▶ 1:03:05Mr. Kupor: Reports that doge has accessed sensitive personal information of hundreds of thousands of american. The acting inspector general was confirmed that his office is looking into the matter. Would you commit to allowing the acting inspector general and his office to continue this investigation without any interference or retribution?
▶ 1:03:26Mr. Kupor: I think protecting data privacy is incredibly important. We want a system where people have concerns it is appropriate to investigate that.
▶ 1:03:39Sen. Hassan: You would allow them to operate without political interference?
▶ 1:03:43Mr. Kupor: We would do everything required under law to make sure data privacy is protected.
▶ 1:03:49Sen. Hassan: That is not the answer I was looking for. Thank you.
▶ 1:03:54Chair Paul: There are allegations made that the president is acting illegally. These are simply allegations and will be adjudicated by the court. He fired the head of the cfpb, it's the only operating case we have recently and it went to the supreme court and they ruled he had -- congress could not limit the firings. Could congress limit the president from firing people? It is not an open and shut case.
▶ 1:04:26Chair Paul: It will be determined by the courts. This goes back to the civil war. The republicans trying to tell andrew johnson he couldn't fire the secretary of war. They made a statute saying you couldn't fire people in your own cabinet. That was struck down by the courts. There have been a series of cases. I'm not sure whether they are the same. It is not an open and shut case. The president will have to have a certain amount of leeway.
▶ 1:04:59Chair Paul: The same with the impoundment act. I think there is a real question waiting a month or two months or three months. I think the courts will have a tough time defining something as impoundment whether it is still sitting there. It is going to be determined by the courts too.
▶ 1:05:32Chair Paul: The things he is doing now is -- it is a debatable point. From where I sit I wouldn't call things carte blanche illegal, legal, everybody has a right to do that. I wanted to make sure that his book forward.
▶ 1:05:47Sen. Lankford: Thanks very much. You have put a lot of years in to be able to serve the nation and serve people. I appreciate you stepping through this process. I appreciate very much the work you all have done to prepare for this. I want to walk through several questions as rapidly as I can. There is a massive data breach a decade ago. Every federal worker has struggled with that.
▶ 1:06:18Sen. Lankford: You work with data for a long time. What are you going to do when you step into this role to help protect the integrity?
▶ 1:06:31Mr. Kupor: I do not want to see a repeat of what happened many years ago. Not just from our functions but certainly data privacy and data protection.
▶ 1:06:47Sen. Lankford: There has been a lot of talk about federal workers and being removed. On the other side there are 120 different hired authorities. We have made the federal workforce incredibly complicated to hire, remove, give oversight through the process. We will get back to doing hiring in the days ahead. Also reducing the size of federal government as well.
▶ 1:07:20Sen. Lankford: What are your thoughts on decreasing the complexity of the federal hiring process?
▶ 1:07:24Mr. Kupor: The president put out an executive order saying we have 80 days to make sure we are in position of a role. One of the things I expect opm to do is go through the entire hiring process. We do a really poor job of hiring people. There's all types of things we can do, should do to streamline the process and make sure we get the highest quality applicants.
▶ 1:07:54Sen. Lankford: What would be shocking to a lot of american people, a lot of them have journeyman in a different role, trying to get to that job. It is incredibly difficult to move from an intern that some supervisor might say they are really good at this, we should bring them on. They have to go through a 120 day process. It is a challenge that has to be fixed.
▶ 1:08:22Sen. Lankford: There has been a lot of bashing on telework. I have spoken up frequently on the issue for things like spouses of federal law enforcement, active duty military. They and their family move every three years. It is difficult for them to have careers. There are jobs you could do by telework. You could do that literally from any place on earth, answering the phone.
▶ 1:08:49Sen. Lankford: It is a great opportunity for people serving for their spouse to also have a career. How would you handle telework once we balance this out?
▶ 1:09:02Mr. Kupor: The president has also issued an executive order on that. He said lets me do this in a way that recognizes some of these cases. There may be instances where it does make sense to have a policy . We need to have those as individual matters.
▶ 1:09:30Sen. Lankford: Eric, all you had to do was have don nickles introduce you and I am done. Thanks for your many years of service. Many folks have not met you before but they got a great introduction of you. Thanks for that. Thanks for stepping into this role.
▶ 1:09:54Sen. Lankford: You and I have talked about the federal program this was something that started years ago that passed through the first trump administration. Credit the work behind the scenes for the federal program. It is still unfinished. We still cannot say everything the federal government does. We cannot ask the american people, they cannot do a quick internet search to say how many job-training programs does the federal government do?
▶ 1:10:24Sen. Lankford: It is incredibly important to finish up if we are going to fight duplication, we have to be able to see it. What are your thoughts?
▶ 1:10:32Mr. Ueland: You can't manage what you can't measure. Right now, we just don't know. That is incredibly exasperating to anybody going line by line through the federal budget trying to determine whether or not we have that.
▶ 1:10:48Mr. Ueland: My commitment is to drive the team to finish that, to provide that roll up and ultimately that information to congress, taxpayers, from their help congress and the director make decisions about what is appropriate that ultimately congress and the executive branch could.
▶ 1:11:11Sen. Lankford: Two things we have talked about, one is making sure omb is actually pushing on our contractors and subcontractors. That is something required by federal law. My understanding is it is not being done. I want to make sure federal tax dollars for projects are going to american citizens. The other one is to have a review for independent agencies. They are not a fourth branch of government. Thank you.
▶ 1:11:40Mr. Ueland: Absolutely we are committed to those. The president has spoken directly on these things. At omb, we are well underway and if I get confirmed diving deep on implementing those.
▶ 1:11:59Sen. Kim: Thank you chairman. Mr. chair, I wanted to flag that I also agree with my colleagues that the importance of this committee taking action to be able to shine a light on what happened in terms of this administration's use of unsecured, unclassified commercial channels including gmail. This is something that should be investigated.
▶ 1:12:29Sen. Kim: I would like to commence the chairman to work with us to bring that to light. I appreciate the chance of being able to talk to you. One thing we talked about is the importance of the federal workforce, being clear that it serves the american people, right? To make sure that there's no question that the workforce is serving the american people. Is that correct?
▶ 1:12:55Mr. Kupor: Yes, senator.
▶ 1:12:57Sen. Kim: I worked in the federal civil service. One thing made very clear to us is those serving our country, having access to information of our country, we were barred from political activities, campaigning, other things through the hatch act. Do you recognize the importance of that separation?
▶ 1:13:17Mr. Kupor: Yes, senator.
▶ 1:13:19Sen. Kim: Should elon musk be held to the same standards of the rest of those who serve our country?
▶ 1:13:26Mr. Kupor: I don't know particularly the issues with respect to elon, but yes, everyone in the federal government should comply with all the rules.
▶ 1:13:39Sen. Kim: Do you think someone with the level of access elon musk has had, including attending cabinet meetings, that he should be subject or at least held to the standards of the hatch act?
▶ 1:13:48Mr. Kupor: Again, I do not know what the limitations of the hatch act are or not, but it's a special government employee, and I'm sure there's a set of regulations that apply.
▶ 1:14:01Sen. Kim: Opm is the one who sent me the guidance about the have jacked when I was government, so I certainly have to be engaged on that. Just make standpoint here, I went home and did some town halls throughout new jersey, and people were asking, what about government contracts?
▶ 1:14:21Sen. Kim: You're getting money, and you got business before our government, now having access to so much of the information within the government and also, you know, campaigning actively around the country. That unsettles me.
▶ 1:14:36Sen. Kim: To me, it is very clearly crossing the line of what a government employee or someone serving the country, whatever title he has, the fact that he has this much access, so much influence between our government. Does it bother you?
▶ 1:14:55Mr. Kupor: Again, I'm not trying to be argumentative, but I'm not sure what his restrictions are via the hatch act. But anyone who is a federal employee, I strongly believe opm will support this, they should follow all rules, including the hatch act, and if they are violation of that, that should be followed up appropriately.
▶ 1:15:17Sen. Kim: When I tried to convey here is just get a sense, at least from you, do you share the discomfort? I mean, my constituents in new jersey, they don't know the ins and outs of the hatch act, but they can tell that this is not right, and that is just something I wanted to flag for you. Mr.
▶ 1:15:40Sen. Kim: Ueland, I wanted to just ask you what your thoughts work in terms of the dismantling of usaid and whether or not you thought that was lawful. He worked at the state department. You've been engaged in foreign assistance. How do you think the administration handled that?
▶ 1:15:57Mr. Ueland: The court has deformed -- confirmed the decisions of the secretary in that regard. Usaid has been effectively shattered, and certain rules and responsibilities, but appropriate health and lifesaving programs will continue.
▶ 1:16:18Sen. Kim: Do you think that the administration has the same authority, should be able to, for instance, close and abolish the department of education?
▶ 1:16:26Mr. Ueland: Senator, I would expect that the court ultimately have a voice on this, but there are a variety of statutes. That clearly are going to be invoked as part of the process of reducing the footprint of the department of education and finding ways to return the authority and responsibility of education programs to the states.
▶ 1:16:50Sen. Kim: Mr. chairman, I yield back. Occrp
▶ 1:16:55Occhair Paul: I'm going to go to senator moreno next, and he will take over the committee,. I will be back.
▶ 1:17:11Sen. Moreno: Thank, Mr. chairman.
▶ 1:17:15Mr. Kupor: It's been thousands.
▶ 1:17:20Sen. Moreno: Any country you have invested in, will you put your private capital and your partner's private capital ever been run in the way the united states government is run, in terms of excessive cost, efficiency, bureaucracy, and inefficacy?
▶ 1:17:35Mr. Kupor: Thank you, senator. We certainly have co's who have different -- ceo's who have different skill sets in this area. One thing we focus on as board members is return on investment, and if you have someone in the private sector who understands what they are spending, why they are spending, what they get out of that. We had times when ceo's have had to make changes in employment, unfortunately, and otherwise.
▶ 1:18:01Sen. Moreno: Is $2 trillion a year in deficits, paying $1 trillion a year in interest a sustainable path?
▶ 1:18:09Mr. Kupor: No , senator, you and I talked, and I reiterated in my opening statement, I believe we are on and on sustainable fiscal path, and we need to help make the american people understand that.
▶ 1:18:23Sen. Moreno: You say an unsustainable path, who pays the price? Is it people in our generation, 30-year-olds like you and I, who pays the price?
▶ 1:18:44What Mr. Kupor: We are doing is creating an unsurmountable debt for our children, our grandchildren, and future generations. It is fundamentally unfair and something we need to address.
▶ 1:18:48Sen. Moreno: So the status quo is no longer acceptable, is that fair?
▶ 1:18:50Mr. Kupor: Yes, sir.
▶ 1:18:55Sen. Moreno: Going back to the office of personnel management, thousands of employees, I ran my own company's prior to being here. How many companies have you ever seen, ever, like in your entire career, where 69% of the employees are rated above average? Give me a sense of how many?
▶ 1:19:12Mr. Kupor: I've never seen a company that has been successful that has had that level of rating.
▶ 1:19:19Sen. Moreno: If it were accurate. What would you do if you found a ceo who had created a team of people, were almost 70% of the people earned a top rating?
▶ 1:19:29Mr. Kupor: So either this is the most incredible set of workforces you've seen or it defies logic at the end of the day. It's important not only to ensure we have accountability, but it is also important from a compensation an incentive standpoint, right? We want people who do well to be recognized.
▶ 1:19:51Mr. Kupor: Pay people who are fantastic, give them a promotion, but we need to have a system that is not peanut butter out and sent us, and that includes top performers who are not doing their roles.
▶ 1:20:00Sen. Moreno: My company used to say, take a long time to hire and a short time to fire. Hiring is hard. You have an interview, you try to get a best sense of who's going to work there, but ultimately you have a batting average. Have you ever had a ceo that was so good it hiring that only .4% of the workforce was below average?
▶ 1:20:26Mr. Kupor: No, senator.
▶ 1:20:28Sen. Moreno: 99.6 percent. That would be remarkable. That person would be ceo of the world ever. We have to fix that, right? Nothing is worse than an organization than working with -- if ■you are a high performer and you are surrounded by people who are not pulling their weight, are not doing the job they are supposed to do, it is insanely demoralizing, would you agree with that?
▶ 1:20:55Mr. Kupor: I would agree. I think you are exactly right. This is an issue of fairness to people who are doing a great work. This is not a demonization, quite frankly, of the workforce, this is a recognition of people who do great work, quite frankly, we should reward them for that, and everyone knows if you have an organization where people are not performing, the humane them, that is great, but if if they cannot, it's great to go to somewhere else.
▶ 1:21:25Sen. Moreno: Thank you for doing this. I'm sure there are other things in life you could do. Thank you for serving your country. Eric -- do you mind if I call you eric? First of all, your daughter is always a shining star in the cloak room. I don't know how she smells like that, but it is great. Do you think it is -- smiles like that come of it is great. I do think it is fair that we have people in washington, D.C.
▶ 1:21:55Sen. Moreno: That we spend $40 billion a year to foreign countries, to help foreign citizens in foreign countries when our people need help? Our seniors are struggling, our middle class is struggling, we have a problem with housing, yet we have a government that prioritizes sending tens of billions of dollars to foreign countries. Do you think the average american understands that this government has done that?
▶ 1:22:18Mr. Ueland: No, senator. I still don't think that the average american understands it, but I believe the average american understands where president trump stands, the agenda he has that, the objectives he has laid out, the goals he expects all of us to accomplish, and the missions that we have to deliver, courtesy of his mandate.
▶ 1:22:37Sen. Moreno: As the temporary chairman, I'm going to tell myself I'm out of time, and I have to move on. [laughter] I will recognize my fellow colombian, senator gallego.
▶ 1:22:50Sen. Gallego: Grazie is. I would like to call -- gracias. I would like to call for jurisdiction here, messages on unsecured apps like signal, used by adversaries.
▶ 1:23:08Sen. Gallego: This reckless move is concerning, because sophisticated adversaries like russia and iran, who provide support to the houthis, could act on that information to american service members. The wide use of signal by top and administration officials, we owe it to these brave fighters to ensure this never happens again. Thank you for indulging me. I will turn to my questions. Mr. kupor, thank you for joining us.
▶ 1:23:38Sen. Gallego: My guest my guess is one of thousands of veterans -- my guest is someone who was fired as one of elon musk's because for the workforce. My guess is exemplifies the arbitrary and have have dirt approach currently being undertaken by musk, opium, and the doge service.
▶ 1:24:02Sen. Gallego: Yes or no, if you are asked to fire additional, will you prevent targeting these men and women who put their lives for this country? We can find a pathway to at least give them some opportunities.
▶ 1:24:17Mr. Kupor: Thank you, senator. Two things, as you know, opm does not have the authority to fire individuals, so any activities would be through the agency. Secondly, one thing we could work on together is I do think there is an opportunity to medically perform how we think about reduction in force rules, that I think would allow us to have a very rational process we can we unfortunately find ourselves in situations where we have to identify spending cuts.
▶ 1:24:45Sen. Gallego: Right. Will you prioritize transparency in providing lawmakers updated and accurate information on the number of personnel being laid off before executing additional layoffs? A personal peeve of mine, I also served on the v.a.
▶ 1:25:02Sen. Gallego: Committee, and 15% cuts to the phoenix v.a., arbitrary, we have zero insight into what the process was, where does the 15% come from, how is this going to affect services? Is he going to affect services? So this is where I think, you know, opm can do much better at communicating.
▶ 1:25:30Sen. Gallego: Even if we are going to disagree, I want you to show me your work.
▶ 1:25:33Mr. Kupor: Yes, senator. We want to do this in a way that is transparent to the needs of congress and the american people. I look forward to working with you on that.
▶ 1:25:42Sen. Gallego: Great. Thank you. The chips program officer, so far, one-third of its staff has been decimated, the semiconductors, one of our fastest growing economies in arizona in terms of offices of high wages, so to distribute funds to the new chips programs we will have.
▶ 1:26:11Sen. Gallego: Some of the companies do not invest in the way, and this can -- who knows what can happen when it comes to the effectiveness of tariffsnow effectiveness of tariffsn now. Already, semiconductor companies have reached out to us, saying they are extremely confused. They have no one to talk to.
▶ 1:26:33Sen. Gallego: So, given this critical importance to national security and for trade and of course the president's stated goal, he was very happy when the s&p they would add more fabs in arizona for a total of six fabs. Do you agree with the president pose a goal of making sure our chip manufacturing returns to the united states?
▶ 1:26:58Mr. Kupor: It's very hard for me to make a commitment with respect to this program, but I could answer more generally get one of the things I expect opm to do when we look at the plans agencies are providing to us is to ask the hard questions them which is ok, if we are producing headcount, what is our plan? If these are critical services for how we deliver them and not interrupt services.
▶ 1:27:20Sen. Gallego: In some regards, a of these questions might even strike the other could I think many of us are looking back at the clinton days where there was a joint agreement of working together in a bipartisan matter to find where we can find cuts, find efficiencies, cut bureaucracy, instead it seems like we are cutting first and asking questions later, which may work, you know, in the vc world, but when you expect someone to pick up the veterans
▶ 1:27:51Sen. Gallego: Crisis hotline, it does not work like the vc world. So as much as my colombian brother thinks everything is analogous to the business world, the business world is not have to defend, you know, two borders, does not have to take care of millions of seniors, whether on medicare, medicaid, social security, does not have to take care of hundreds of thousands of veterans.
▶ 1:28:15Sen. Gallego: That is something only government can do and why I think it is important to keep that in mind before we take the vc, silicon valley idea that we break it in and figure it out later for it when we break things in government, people die. Thank you, and I yield back my time.
▶ 1:28:27Sen. Moreno: Senator hawley.
▶ 1:28:30Sen. Hawley: Thank you very much, Mr.. Congratulations to the nominee. -- the nominees. It is good to see you. As the director of opm, you will oversee policies that affect federal employees, of course, including those related to health care, employee benefits. I just want to get your sense, your views about policies and how they may influence your approach in this role. I think it will be imported to what you do. Are you familiar with the smith amendment?
▶ 1:28:59Mr. Kupor: I'm familiar vaguely.
▶ 1:29:02Sen. Hawley: That is fine. Let me give you a refresher. The smith amendment is a long-standing provision of law since 1982 that rivets financial services and government appropriations from being used for an abortion or the admin -- the administrative expenses inco connection which provides in a covered for abortion, except for a case of rape, incest, or life of the mother.
▶ 1:29:32Sen. Hawley: Prior to the smith amendment's enactment, opm administer plans, funded approximately 17,000 abortions nationwide yearly, taxpayer money, I want to empathize, costing taxpayers almost $10 million a year. That was 40 years ago. The smith amendment has been in effect since that time.
▶ 1:29:54Sen. Hawley: It enacts and represents a bedrock commitment that we have that we do not use, whatever your position may be on abortion -- and I'm 100% pro-life -- even if you are not, we do not use taxpayer funding for abortions and for the administration to find a horse appeared with that background, will you commit to upholding the smith amendment and assure opm funds are not used in any way to support, promote, or pay for abortion services?
▶ 1:30:18Mr. Kupor: Mr. senator, look, if I have the opportunity to serve opm, I will follow all of the laws and regulations, including the smith amendment, as you described. Everything appropriate under the legal framework, I assure you.
▶ 1:30:31Sen. Hawley: Good. Fantastic. Your predecessor in her role used her post to promote with a vengeance, I might say, critical race theory, intersectionality, d.e.I. Let me hit a few of the highlights.
▶ 1:30:46Sen. Hawley: This is karen, while she was a chief of staffer opm during the obama administration, she praised the civil unrest in the united states, praised it, as a means of "finally coming to terms with our racist history as a country," while she was opm director, she published government wide -- and the federal workforce, she created the chief diversity officer's network counsel, she directed
▶ 1:31:18Sen. Hawley: Guidance on gender identity, on how to handle gender transitions and how to support transitioning employees. She banned agencies from assessing salary histories before hiring because they could exacerbate pre-existing inequality.
▶ 1:31:35Sen. Hawley: So let me just ask you, are you going to unwind all of that nonsense that the american people got a good, hard look at in november, I might add, and an emphatic no two, note to the trans-ideology, no two critical race theory and calling this country a racist country that is systemically evil and ruined and terrible. We put a stop at that at opm and get opm focus on the core mission?
▶ 1:32:02Mr. Kupor: Yes, senator. I want to focus on how we create a great workforce is lesser to the needs of the people and does so in a way that is sufficient. As you know, the president has already issued executive orders when it comes to d.e.I. Departments and government, and we will comply.
▶ 1:32:16Sen. Hawley: Fantastic. You will vigorously enforce those, I would presume. Very good. Mr. ueland, it is nice to see you again. I've enjoyed working with you over the years. Congratulations on this nomination. Thanks for being willing to do it. The committee has a tremendous letter and your support from the susan b.
▶ 1:32:36Sen. Hawley: Anthony list and the national right to life committee talking about your long-standing commitment to the pro-life cause, to the basic principle that every child born in this country deserves to be treated with equality and fairness, is welcomed and protected. It is a tremendous letter. It is great to see a member of the administration get this kind of support from the pro-life community. This is not already been entered into the record, Mr. chairman, I would ask unanimous extent to do so.
▶ 1:33:01Chair Paul: Without objection.
▶ 1:33:09Sen. Hawley: In my remaining moments here, let me give an opportunity to talk about what the priorities will be, and let me say again congratulations on the nomination. Go ahead.
▶ 1:33:12Mr. Ueland: Thank you very much, senator. I very much appreciate that. I plan to serve with honor and dignity and effectually to present's agenda. -- effectuate the president's agenda. Make sure taxpayers and employees is advocated and insured.
▶ 1:33:36Mr. Ueland: See what we can do with newer technology and ways to help downsize, re-scope, reorient the federal government, as the president has directed, and ultimately serve as the pleasure of the director and deputy director.
▶ 1:33:51Sen. Hawley: Very good. Congratulations to you both. Thank you, Mr. chairman.
▶ 1:34:03Chair Paul: Senator slotkin.
▶ 1:34:08Sen. Slotkin: Thank you. My concern is the security of the data of the people who serve in the U.S. military. We had a conversation about how when I was at the pentagon, myself and tens of thousands of others had our data stolen by the chinese government, a foreign actor who hacked our system and got a ton of some of our most sensitive information from opm, right? So the agency that you are hoping to take over here.
▶ 1:34:36Sen. Slotkin: At the same time, we have reports that the doge gol reports that the doge gfolks are getting access to taxpayer information, information for folks on medicare, so sensitive health information. We see them now pointing their sights on military and veteran information. You are the ultimate arbiter of personnel policy. Give me some assurance that you are not going to let Mr.
▶ 1:35:04Sen. Slotkin: Musk and the doge folks go in, take our data, put it into ai-enable software, and use it for any other way than what, you know, people have given permission for.
▶ 1:35:19Mr. Kupor: Yes, senator. Thank you. I enjoyed the conversation we had earlier. I believe very strongly data privacy, as we talked about. When I'm running opm, if I have the opportunity to do so, we will make sure we protect data privacy, and make sure people who are not authorized will not have the access.
▶ 1:35:38Sen. Slotkin: Yeah. The thing I'm looking for is a little bit of backbone that when this is happening at another agency, right? , right? So now they go into the veterans administration or they go into the department of defense, they already wanted into the treasury, over the head of the secretary of the treasury -- it is embarrassing. She came in front of congress and said I will not let anyone have taxpayer information, and literally in the same week, doge and announce this information can sometimes on their own servers.
▶ 1:36:08Sen. Slotkin: I'm not looking into, well, if they come to me with this specific problem, I will raise my hand and do something about it, I'm looking to you as the person who will be the guardian of our policy on information on U.S. persons, that you will stick up and say hey, you know, I'm concerned. That I'm hearing these reports I'm going to go out. . I'm going to proactively do something about it.
▶ 1:36:34Sen. Slotkin: How will I know you will not be another secretary of the treasury that tells us one thing and then goes and gets, you know, his authority is just rammed over by doge and a bunch of 20-year-olds.
▶ 1:36:44Mr. Kupor: Senator, I believe opm is an important part of the equation, and I do not think it is appropriate for us to give access to systems, if people are not rightly available to see those. I certainly think opm can do it.
▶ 1:37:05Sen. Hawley: I hope you do. We have not seen a backbone yet, but I'm still hoping. Mr. ueland, in your role at omb, you know, I think about the movement of money and how important they can be to some of our communities. In michigan, we just had terrible ice storms. We had 100,000 people without power, still 50,000 people approximately right now in the northern part of our lower peninsula are without power. The governor has been up there. She invited president trump to come and see it.
▶ 1:37:31Sen. Hawley: We have not filed a declaration of federal help request yet, but how do I know that if a state like michigan asks for money from fema, does all the paperwork the way we traditionally do, when we have an emergency, how do I know that you will treat our state fairly, that you will be objective about it, that he won't bring politics into it, and that you will administer the funds, regardless of whether the state is --has a democratic governor or a
▶ 1:38:01Sen. Hawley: Republican governor?
▶ 1:38:02Mr. Ueland: Senator, thank you for the question. If a state makes an application through the appropriate fema channels, then they will be properly reviewed, and the president will have the opportunity to make a decision on those applications. If the governor of michigan has not elected to make an application, then we cannot have anything to react to. , look, my concern is about --
▶ 1:38:30Sen. Slotkin: My concern is about the future of fema, the president was a decision to collapse fema, go to block grants, some other time of assistance. You are someone who oversees that body?
▶ 1:38:45Mr. Ueland: Great question, senator. I'm old enough to have been young enough to have been around when fema went through pretty significant expansion starting in the early 1990's under then president. There is no doubt that the roles and responsibilities for fema as well as many other organizations, agencies, throughout our federal government, deserve a review, especially given some of the most atrocious, irresponsible, and long lingering things we see as examples of fema failures during the past few years under
▶ 1:39:17Mr. Ueland: The previous administration. So if a calling for the president to take a look at fema as well as a other things and see whether or not it is for four focus here in the 21st century, what is the role of states? What is the role of community? What is the role of the private sector in moments of disaster? That conversation, I'm sure, will be robust, both internally and with congress.
▶ 1:39:44Sen. Slotkin: I think were coming up on the term of limitations on when we can blame others for you now own it, right? You are going to own it over there. We want to make sure that the capabilities of fema endure.
▶ 1:39:57Chair Paul: Time.
▶ 1:39:59Sen. Slotkin: Sorry. In any case, we look forward to you fixing it and what you will do to get that assistance out.
▶ 1:40:05Mr. Ueland: I appreciate that, senator, and quickly, Mr. chairman, before the hearing concludes, there have been a lot of requests this morning for the investigation of signalgate, so-called signalgate, I want to say on behalf of myself, just as an individual, there are many people involved in that signal chain. Those are men and women of the highest caliber. They serve our country with distinction.
▶ 1:40:31Mr. Ueland: They had no intent nor did they release an appropriate information to the general public, and the mission at which they were engaged, on the direction of the employees of the united states, was highly successful. Thank you, Mr. chairman.
▶ 1:40:44Chair Paul: Senator ernst.
▶ 1:40:48Sen. Ernst: Yes, thank you, Mr. chair, and thanks to our nominees for being here today. There has been a lot of discussion about reductions in force today, and Mr. kupor, I will just ask you, if you happen to know this, what percent of federal employees have received a reduction in force notice?
▶ 1:41:04Mr. Kupor: Yes, senator. I don't know the specific number, but it is a relatively small number.
▶ 1:41:10Sen. Ernst: Yes, and while the risks are front and center, let's look at some of the employees who might need to get a risk notice, if they have not already. A veterans affairs manager, responsible for scheduling veterans implements -- appointments, posted on social media that he was phoning it in from a bubble bath while calls to the v.a. Have gone unanswered.
▶ 1:41:39Sen. Ernst: Yes, that is a hairy leg hanging out of the bathtub. That is the actual photo he posted during his work hours and on a zoom call. An army veteran gave up on getting mental health, and please listen to this, everyone. An army veteran gave up on getting mental health care from the v.a.
▶ 1:41:55Sen. Ernst: Because after years of trying to get an appointment, he met with a therapist who, quote, "spent the appointment singing the praises of remote work with a cat draped around her neck." he said it was such a disaster that, quote, "now I'm just on my meds, doing my best." a hud employee was arrested for drunk driving at 3:30 in the
▶ 1:42:26Sen. Ernst: Afternoon on a friday and may have been paid for time spent sitting in jail. Hud had no idea until I told them. For more than three years, a social security employee was running a home inspection business, meanwhile, his mother was responding to his emails.
▶ 1:42:50Sen. Ernst: It should have been a hole in one, but it took the irs nearly a decade to fire an irs employee who was golfing on the taxpayers' dime. The e in doge does not stand for elimination, it stands for efficiency. The american people are best served by an efficient work force, full of good employees, and there are many.
▶ 1:43:19Sen. Ernst: I have been hardened by the number of federal employees who have approached me, blowing the whistle on bureaucrats who are failing to live up to the standards we expect. There are so many more unnamed federal employees, like the current acting and the straighter of the social security administration, Mr. dudek, who know taxpayers deserve better than bubble baths and self-interested therapist.
▶ 1:43:51Sen. Ernst: Mr. dudek was rewarded with a big promotion. So, Mr. kupor and Mr. ueland, how can agencies be empowered to not only dismissed bad employees quickly but also provide positive incentives for good employees like fast tracked promotions and other rewards? I will start with you, Mr. kupor.
▶ 1:44:15Mr. Kupor: Thank you, senator. We talked about this a little bit in your office. I'm happy to return to it. One of the things I would like to do if I have the opportunity at opm is a look at the entire talent management process. One you mentioned is the overall performance review and promotion process. It's very clear from my perspective that we want a high talent organization.
▶ 1:44:38Mr. Kupor: I mentioned in my opening statement we should not have an organization where 69% of the workforce ranks above average. I despise logic. -- that defies logic. We need to figure out what rewards innovation, good work, and also if we have individuals who unfortunately are not able to perform their functions, managers need the ability to remove those individuals at a timely manner from the organization.
▶ 1:45:08Sen. Ernst: Thank you. I look forward to your nomination and look forward to working with you on that. Mr. ueland?
▶ 1:45:16Mr. Ueland: Very quickly, that is white mustard is white mus Mr. trump -- what Mr. trump expect out of us, find a way to create and ultimately said new norms about high performance and the accountability that comes along with the opportunity and the privilege of federal service. We are all at will employees.
▶ 1:45:37Mr. Ueland: You are at will of the electorate, everybody behind you, I've served my entire life of here and in roles in the private sector, is an at will employee. It's invigorating, it's exciting, you learn what the expectations are, and you work hard as a high-performing team to deliver results. I'm excited by the president's charge here to rethink, reimagine, and that's my commitment to this committee.
▶ 1:46:03Sen. Ernst: Yes, and I thank you both. I know that my time is expired. We don't have other members here. I will make one final point. Thank you. [laughter] just a final point, because I know, I had a colleague the other day that spent 25 hours talking about the federal government on the floor of the senate, and part of what he said really bothered me, because there were insinuations that there would be a cuts to the social security administration,
▶ 1:46:33Sen. Ernst: And people would not see delivery, and, you know, all of this talking. It was talk. But what I wanted to do was stand up on the floor and say, and I know from personal experience, again, because I had to take issue with this, the social security administrative office in northwest iowa have been closed, and the workers were doing remote work for four years.
▶ 1:47:05Sen. Ernst: Covid? I think not, folks. We are beyond that. Four years, constituents came to me, complaining because they could not get their calls returned, they could not get emails returned, and they could not go to the office and see anyone.
▶ 1:47:22Sen. Ernst: These are people seeking disability services, these are elderly, these are people who have lost their spouses and need assistance with social security, and they could not get their phone calls returned, emails returned, and they could not see someone in person. I had to call the social security administration or into my office to answer why these people are not at work and accepting -- assisting our citizens.
▶ 1:47:49Sen. Ernst: So don't tell me that everything has been rolling just so smoothly under this last administration. We need people that care about our constituents. They need to show up to work and do their work. We should reward good employees and get rid of those that truly don't want to work for americans and only are working for themselves. So I do expect that from both of you, and I know that we will get that from both of you. Thank you, Mr. chair.
▶ 1:48:18Chair Paul: Thank you senator ernst. You are almost done to it we are saving the best for last. Senator ernst's story about outrages the behavior of federal employees reminds me of my favorite one. This one was second in charge of eva in the obama administration. I can't remember his name. He went to jail eventually. For about a decade, he was telling his superiors at work, well, I will be missing a lot of work, because you know I also work for the cia.
▶ 1:48:47Chair Paul: And I did not realize you could work for the epa and the cia at the same time, but nobody ever called the cia to ask him if he worked there. He did this for a decade. In the end, he owed over $1 million he had to pay back in salary, and I think he went to jail, but it went on for decade. When there was a shut down, they actually did the thing you're supposed to do, they actually looked at his worksheet, he had not been there in six months, and they were like oh yeah, he works for the cia. Had anybody called the cia?
▶ 1:49:17Chair Paul: They called and nobody had ever heard of him. So outrageous stuff goes on. Glad we're shaking it up. I'm glad we are doing this. One of the things I wanted to point out is that, you know, Mr. ueland, you've worked most of your career is not all of your career for the federal government. Do you have a preconceived notion that federal employees are all bad? [laughter]
▶ 1:49:37Mr. Ueland: Senator, thanks for the question. And I can assure you, I do not work for the cia. [laughter] but I'm in my 20's come as a senator moreno earlier. No, I don't have a preconceived notion.
▶ 1:49:49Chair Paul: Same question for Mr. kupor. Do you have a preconceived notion?
▶ 1:49:54Mr. Kupor: No, I don't, and this is why accountability matters. We want people to show up every day and do their best, and we should have an environment that enables that.
▶ 1:50:08Mr. Kupor: The minority makes this point that people being fired had just been promoted to but as you are running a business, not the government, a business, and it were losing $2 trillion a year, maybe some good people would have to be let go. I don't think it is a conviction as you as a person or the trump administration if the people who got a promotion, but there is a question from a too many people being promoted? Were they being promoted to protect them from being fired?
▶ 1:50:34Mr. Kupor: It is not, I think, an accurate assumption to say I assumption to say we hate all the federal employees. I and a federal employee. Good people will probably have to be let go and downsize these things. And, you know, I think it is important that people not go away with the message that all republicans are against federal employees. There are federal employees who work for us, who work in government. So I think that is not true.
▶ 1:51:04Mr. Kupor: With regards to the concept of collective bargaining, though, you know, we have at times in our history thought that people who provide, like, the military or our security, we won't have collective bargaining if we have soldiers going on strike. We have the same thought with air traffic controllers, and reagan fired them, thankfully, at one time, because you cannot just have them walk off the job.
▶ 1:51:26Mr. Kupor: While collective bargaining, in fact, there are some areas of our economy I would like to see more collective bargaining, for consumers them on drug prices, things like that, ways that collectively we can drive prices down or drive wages out, if that may be, but it does not mean we need to have collective bargaining everywhere, the right to strike. We have to be careful.
▶ 1:51:45Mr. Kupor: For many decades, we did not have any in government, and the reason was, government was essential, you cannot have congress go on strike and not show up. One of the things I have tried to do, see if there's ways we could nibble around the corners.
▶ 1:52:09Mr. Kupor: I always thought it was those with large sort of expectations, bonuses for cost cutters. We try to do is take the incentives, so you get rewarded if your company makes more money. It's hard to tell of the government makes more money, but if you do cut costs, the government loses less money come and then you reward those people individually. There's a little bit of this, but not enough, so we have a bill called bonuses for cost cutters to expand.
▶ 1:52:40Mr. Kupor: It it has occasionally gotten bipartisan support. Often the debate runs this way, that is fine, we will give the employee, if you are in charge me $12 billion budget, you saved $1 million, we will give you $10,000. That's a great idea. My whole point is come if you saved $1 million, let's send it back to the treasury. We can get back into this debate, we will not solve that today, but ultimately, it's going to have to be solved.
▶ 1:53:07Mr. Kupor: In the meantime, as I've told you both privately and everybody who listened, we hope this administration comes back with a package, it's a special vote, a simple majority. Everybody talks about the budget, budget reconciliation, all these things we can do, that is true. There's also something called rescission that comes out of the empowerment act, a simple majority way to cut money.
▶ 1:53:31Mr. Kupor: The president won a well-deserved election, and I hope the president will use his political capital, to com to us and say, $2 trillion of debt, why don't you accept this money back, take it back. Once we do, it will send this message that the public is behind him.
▶ 1:53:49Mr. Kupor: The public, frankly, mostly is behind the, you know, not spending $2 million for sex changes in guatemala, not spending $4 million on social media influencers and ukraine. The public is with us on this. I've been advocating to have it sent back, you know, have it sent back for rescissions, so it is voted on by congress.
▶ 1:54:17Mr. Ueland: Can I quickly respond on rescissions? We will be sending a rescissions package, at least one, to congress. We do expect success. We are excited about the partnership, and we are looking forward to the president being able to sign into law actual, provable spending elimination through the process of rescissions.
▶ 1:54:38Chair Paul: Mr. kupor, I don't know if you've heard of, if one of your predecessors, the opm director for reagan, and a friend of mine, wrote a book that I highly recommend, sort of a thesis, that freedom requires tradition, washington talked about this, all of our founding fathers.
▶ 1:55:08Chair Paul: You made some kind of religious foundation or a sense of right and wrong is that there's not enough policemen. We don't think about it. It's like why do people not steal? Because they will go to jail? Some people do not steal because they will go to jail, but most because it is wrong. If people stop believing in right and wrong, there are dangers to that. Your religion, your tradition, your faith, right and wrong, I'm a big fan of donald devine.
▶ 1:55:40Chair Paul: We wish you both success.
▶ 1:55:41Mr. Kupor: Thank you, Mr. chairman.
▶ 1:55:44Mr. Ueland: Thank you, senator.
▶ 1:55:46Chair Paul: The nominees have filed responses to biographical and financial questionnaires, answered prehearing questions submitted by the committee, and have had their financial statements reviewed by the office of government of ethics. This information will be made part of the hearing record, with the exception of the financial data, which is on file at the committee. Hearing record will remain open until 5:00 p.m. Today for the commission appointments, questions for the record. We are adored. -- we are adjourned. Thank you very much.
▶ 1:56:18Chair Paul: [captioning performed by the national captioning institute, which is responsible for its caption content and accuracy. Visit ncicap.org]