▶ 0:16:38>> the senate committee of foreign relations will come to order. We welcome all of our guests today. We have an important agenda with two different items. One is voting on five nominations we have heard and procedures on three nominees. This is an open hearing and it is public. There will be no audience participation of any kind.
▶ 0:17:07We have a zero-tolerance tolerance policy on that. There will be an arrest and expulsion for a year. With that, I think what we will do is we have other committees meeting and having business meetings right at the top. Senator shaheen and I have talked about this. We will go ahead with the hearing on the nominees that are here before us.
▶ 0:17:30And then when we get the others, the other people who are on the committee, we will proceed to vote on the business aspect of what we need to do today. With that, senator shaheen and I will make our opening statements on this. I will start first and I want to thank our nominees and their families for being here today and, particularly, for your willingness to serve.
▶ 0:17:59Your efforts are sorely needed as america faces threats from around the world every single day. In the middle east, tensions are high. Hezbollah remains a threat for real reform in lebanon. 11 on has moved forward substantially. -- lebanon has moved forward substantially. We are hoping to see change out of the government in syria.
▶ 0:18:30There is an opportunity to isolate iran, reinforce the gulf and israeli partners. Mr. rayburn is the assistant secretary for near east asia -- as assistant secretary for near east asia, you will be integral to helping president trump and marco rubio. President trump's maximum pressure is working.
▶ 0:19:03The assistant secretary will work to ensure above all else that iran never possesses a nuclear weapon. America faces challenges in europe. Over the last decade and in the last three years, prudence aggression has created the largest security crisis -- putin's aggression has created the largest secured he crisis in europe since the second world war. President trump is working diligently to help bring an end to this conflict and we need to work with our european allies to confront the security challenges facing europe. Mr.
▶ 0:19:33Pratt, when you take the home as assistant secretary for military put a call affairs, you will need to work with our allies in europe, asia, latin america and beyond. It's no secret that hostile powers have formed an authoritarian access bent on -- axis, bent on weakening the united states. The administration is prioritizing addressing the bureaucratic delays and regulations plaguing our foreign know terry sales process.
▶ 0:20:03I hope you will work to reform -- military sales process. I hope you will work to reform -- it's military is rapidly modernizing.
▶ 0:20:22Its use of -- in this dangerous security environment, we end our allies need to help ourselves by improving burden sharing, increasing defense spending and building joint capabilities. The chinese government also aggressively encroaches on its neighbors territory and wield its large economy, backed by ip theft to gain unfair advantages.
▶ 0:20:49China's united fund actors undertake maligned influence operations that seek to bend the countries around the world to the ccp's will. Mr. desombre, I look forward to hearing how you will oversee changes in the eap bureau to position it to counter china's aggression. If we don't, it will only continue to spread. I would like to thank you for being with us today. Your willingness to serve and your families willingness to help you serve.
▶ 0:21:19We have moved a number of nominees to archimedes and I look forward to the three of you -- our committees. And I look forward to the three of you joining the rank. I'm told we have a quorum. We will take the five nominees in the order they have been listed. First is the nomination of caleb or.
▶ 0:21:49-- caleb o -- caleb orr. >> I will support Mr. orr because he has the qualifications to represent the economics and business affairs bureau. Part of our job is to provide advice and consent with respect to the jobs that we are confirming people to hold.
▶ 0:22:16Given the disruption that is going on at the department of state and reorg plans -- reorganization plans, we don't know what his responsibilities are going to be. While I intend to support him, I will be asking for additional clarity about what he's actually going to be doing if he is sworn in and confirmed by the senate.
▶ 0:22:38I would hope that we would joint as a committee in clarifying the responsibilities of all of these nominees. >> that is a fair request, senator shaheen. Further,? If not, we will call the role. -- further comment? If not, we will call the role. >>> aye by proxy.
▶ 0:23:08>> aye. >> aye. >> aye by proxy. >> aye. >> aye by proxy. >> no. >> no by proxy. >> no. >> no by proxy. >> no by proxy. >> no by proxy. >> no by proxy. >> no. >> aye.
▶ 0:23:43>> the motion has passed. We will turn to kenneth howery, ambassador to king of denmark. It's been moved and seconded. Is there debate? Senator shaheen? >> has supported Mr.
▶ 0:24:09Howery's nomination during the first trumpet ministration and I think it's critical we have someone in denmark because it is an important ally of the united states. I do hope, however, that he will refocus the conversation around denmark and away from this delusional fantasy about taking over greenland. Because the danes are a very valued ally and we want to keep them that way.
▶ 0:24:36Thank you, and as I said, I intend to support him. >> thank you, senator shaheen. Is there any further debate? If no, we will collect the role. >> aye. >> aye. >> aye. >> aye by proxy. >> aye by proxy. >> aye by proxy. >> aye. >> aye. >> aye by proxy. >> aye. >> no by proxy.
▶ 0:25:06>> no. >> no by proxy. >> no. >> no by proxy. >> no by proxy. >> no by proxy. >> no by proxy. >> no. >> aye. >> the motion is passed.
▶ 0:25:36The third one we have is callista gingrich of florida to be ambassador to the swiss confederation and also to liechtenstein. We have a motion to confirm. Is everyone he moved yet is there a second? It has been moved and seconded that we send callista gingrich? If there is none, we will call the role. >> aye. >> aye by proxy.
▶ 0:26:07>> aye by proxy. >> aye by proxy. >> aye by proxy. >> aye. >> aye by proxy. >> no. >> aye by proxy. >> no. >> no by proxy. >> no by proxy. >> no by proxy. >> no by proxy.
▶ 0:26:39>> no. >> aye. >> the motion is passed. We will take up somers farkas of new york to be ambassador to the maldives. It's been moved. Is there debate? If there is none, the clerk will call the role. >> aye. >> aye.
▶ 0:27:09>> no no by proxy. Excuse me. >> aye by proxy. >> aye by proxy. >> aye by proxy. >> aye. >> aye by proxy. >> aye. >> no by proxy. >> no by proxy. >> no. >> no by proxy. >> no by proxy.
▶ 0:27:40>> no by proxy. >> no by proxy. >> no. >> aye. >> the motion has passed. The last one we have is leonardo rizzuto of florida. The ambassador -- to be the ambassador of the united states and the organization of american states.
▶ 0:28:10It has been moved and seconded that we send the nomination to the floor with any past recommendation. Senator shaheen? >> I intend to vote against this nominee. In the first trump administration, this committee, on a bipartisan basis did not allow Mr. rizzuto's nomination to go through when he was nominated during the first administration. He has been willing to share unfounded conspiracy theories online to attack them as of congress, including members of this committee.
▶ 0:28:42He's not taking responsibility for that reckless behavior and I don't think he has either the experience or the understanding to serve as an effective representative of the united states to the oas. I intend to oppose his nomination. >> thank you, senator. Is there further debate? If there be no further debate, the clerk will call the role. >> aye. >> aye. >> aye. >> aye by proxy. >> aye by proxy. >> aye by proxy.
▶ 0:29:12>> aye. >> aye. >> aye by proxy. >> no. >> no by proxy. >> no. >> no by proxy. >> no. >> no by proxy. >> no by proxy. >> no by proxy. >> no by proxy. >> no. >> aye. >> the motion is passed.
▶ 0:29:43That can the business -- that completes the business portion of the meeting today. We will continue on with the hearing on the nominations that are before us today. So, let's -- we will hear from the nominees.
▶ 0:30:11Did you want to cite -- I want to recognize senator shaheen for opening statement.
▶ 0:30:17Sen. Shaheen: Thank you, Mr. chairman. And welcome to the nominees and families and supporters who are here today. One of the most consequential things in the middle east was the fall of the assad regime.
▶ 0:30:38Sen. Shaheen: The regime precipitated the rise of isis and allowed iran to have middle military influence across the middle east. The collapse of the assad regime gave us a once-in-a-lifetime opportunity. A chance for the syrian people to retake their country and chart their own future. The syrian government has done a lot of what we have asked. The new syrian government, that is.
▶ 0:31:09Sen. Shaheen: Working to eliminate chemical weapons, clamping down on the drug trade. Helping to search for missing americans. I was very pleased and senator risch and I did a statement in support of president trump's announcement earlier this week that he would lift U.S. sanctions on syria. Mr. raburn, if confirmed, you will be charged with overseeing U.S. policy on syria among other things.
▶ 0:31:35Sen. Shaheen: I would like to hear how you would ensure that we make a mess of this -- make the best of this moment. In some part of that restrictions on syria are lifted, assuming syria continues to move in a positive direction. It is important to keep a sustained dialogue with syrian officials to make sure they stay on the right path and we need to move quickly. We are seeing efforts by russia and iran to move in.
▶ 0:32:04Sen. Shaheen: Too many syrians have lost their lives fighting oppression to let this window of opportunity pass. What's happening in syria is not an isolated event. It's part of a global competition for influence with our adversaries. Unfortunately, the cuts to foreign aid by the administration and to other programs that counter china are leaving our allies and partners isolated and vulnerable. This puts additional pressure on countries like vietnam or indonesia to hedge their bets against the united states.
▶ 0:32:35Sen. Shaheen: And many nations in the indo pacific region are long-standing american allies. Right now, we have wrist pushing them into china's hands. Mr. desombre, I hope you will talk about how you would work to bolster our ties across east asia and the pacific to counter p.r.c. Influence. And finally, Mr. pratt, you've been nominated to serve as the assistant secretary of state for political military affairs.
▶ 0:33:00Sen. Shaheen: In this role, you will be charged with overseeing arms sales in the process of notifying congress on arms sales. As you are aware, this committee takes very seriously its role in reviewing arms sales. Weeks like the state department to uphold its obligation to closely consult with both the chair and ranking member of this committee on all military sales. I would point out there is an interesting hearing in the arms services committee on this issue that I'm sure you would find instructive if confirmed.
▶ 0:33:33Sen. Shaheen: Mr. pratt, I would like to add that I understand that today, you've been particularly transparent and expressed a willingness to build a relationship with this committee. I want you and all the nominees no that those efforts are noticed. Thank you very much for that. I look forward to hearing from each of the nominees today. Thank you all.
▶ 0:33:53Chair Risch: Senator hagerty, I understand you want to make a couple of introductions.
▶ 0:34:00Sen. Haggerty: It's a great honor to introduce two exceptionally gifted professionals and good friends. Joel rayburn and pastor michael desombre. I will start with joel. Before I do, I have done this before. I would like to direct some comments to the staff sitting along the wall. Joel rayburn served on my staff. He's one of the most outstanding professionals I've ever worked with.
▶ 0:34:29Sen. Haggerty: In his time in the united states senate -- and his time in the united states senate I think will serve him very well in the role he's going to play great gr. I know you work your hearts out. I know you have spent long hours and weekends here. That will put you in a position to do what someone like joel rayburn is about to do.
▶ 0:34:57Sen. Haggerty: Back to the case in hand, joel rayburn. His nomination comes at a pivotal time in the united states in the middle east and north africa. While there are while t-- our nation has opportunities to strengthen relationships with key allies and partners as the president's trip to the middle east has shown.
▶ 0:35:24Sen. Haggerty: I believe no one is better qualified to be the assistant secretary of state responsible for this region than joel rayburn. As an avid historian who has served in a variety of leadership roles relating to the middle east, joel is an expert in the region's culture, history and the many other factors that will determine the success of our policy there. Joel is a proud military veteran who has shown he's committed to public service on behalf of our great nation.
▶ 0:35:50Sen. Haggerty: After graduating from west point in 1992, joel went on to serve as an artillery and intelligence officer in the U.S. army for over 26 years. During his distinguished military career, joel was deployed to the middle east multiple times. Giving him the opportunity to hone his knowledge of the region and its languages as well as his diplomat asked.
▶ 0:36:12Sen. Haggerty: From 2007 to 2011, he worked for general david tr general david t. In president trump's first term, he served on the national security council senior director for iran, iraq, syria and lebanon. He then served as deputy assistant secretary of state. And as special envoy for syria from 2018 to 2021. I think there is no one better to address the questions you raised about syria than joel rayburn.
▶ 0:36:43Sen. Haggerty: Most recently, joel served on my senate staff as my advisor for middle eastern affairs. I was able to see firsthand just why the military and white house trusted joel so much. His sound advice born from his lifetime of focus on the region helped me immensely. As I know it will help state department and the people of the united states. More important, I felt joel is a wonderful father. Someone with the heart and humility to pay it forward for the next generation.
▶ 0:37:13Sen. Haggerty: Joel could not be better mollified the assistant secretary of state. I urge my colleagues in this committee to move quickly on his nomination. Let me turn to another colleague and friend in pastor michael desombre. I'm excited that president trump tapped michael as his nominee for assistant secretary for east asia.
▶ 0:37:37Sen. Haggerty: The trump administration identifies the indo pacific region as a top priority for U.S. foreign policy. This region contains 4.3 billion people. About 60% of the world's population and is responsible for almost two thirds of global maritime trade. The region is home to some of america's closest allies and partners as well as to many of our most serious threats. If confirmed, michael will be at the forefront of U.S.
▶ 0:38:05Sen. Haggerty: Efforts to address the significant challenges in the region while also pursuing tremendous opportunities critical to our economic prosperity and to our national security. As someone who has worked in east asia as a businessman and diplomat, I speak or make springs when I say that michael is the right person for this role. Building on his education at stanford and harvard and economics law in east asian studies, his experience in the region makes him exceptionally qualified for this role.
▶ 0:38:33Sen. Haggerty: As a business leader in asia, he advised complex cross-border transactions. And worked to raise U.S. national security. As a philanthropist, he led initiatives focused on the education, health care and protection of kids. In addition to his success as a businessman and philanthropist in asia, he's also a successful diplomat. As U.S.
▶ 0:38:58Sen. Haggerty: Ambassador to thailand in president trump's first term, he used his skill set to create mutual economic opportunities that brought the american and thai communities close together. He speaks mandarin fluently and is familiar with korean and japanese lang witches. If confirmed, michael will once again use his experience and knowledge to strengthen our diplomatic relationships and advance our nation's interest in the region. Mr.
▶ 0:39:27Sen. Haggerty: Chairman, thank you for the opportunity to introduce my former colleagues and friends, joel rayburn and michael desombre.
▶ 0:39:38Chair Risch: We push a that. We will hear from each of the nominees. We ask that you will keep your remarks to about five minutes. If you have further you want to add, we will be more than happy to have them to the record when the hearing is over. Mr. rayburn, we will start with you. The floors yours.
▶ 0:40:00Mr. Rayburn: Chairman risch, ranking member shaheen and members of the many, thank you for the privilege to come before you today as the president's nominee to serve as the secretary -- it's a time of change in the middle east, presenting the U.S. with change of historic proportion. The first area of opportunity lies with iran.
▶ 0:40:23Mr. Rayburn: Israel's military successes in 2024, coupled with the departure of the assad regime crippled hezbollah and brought -- to its weakest point in decades. We have the opportunity to use our diplomacy to capitalize on this. Including by insuring the iranian regime can never develop or obtain a nuclear weapon.
▶ 0:40:47Mr. Rayburn: We have the opportunity to ensure that the iranian regime can no longer use lebanon and syria as platforms to destabilize the region, giving those countries a chance for a more promising future. Second, there is concurrent opportunity to promote peace and prosperity in the region by building on the landmark abraham accords. By helping to forge new accords with new peace partners as well.
▶ 0:41:14Mr. Rayburn: The growth region where the unite states is growing its strategic partnerships will naturally be a major focus of this effort. As the president's trip shows, the united states will benefit enormously by increasing our competitiveness in that region and providing opportunities for U.S. companies to drive regional integration. I support the administration's commitment to strengthening the existing partnerships between israel and the uae, bahrain and morocco while supporting normalization between israel and saudi arabia and other arab states.
▶ 0:41:45Mr. Rayburn: Not only are these initiatives imperative for regional security and economic integration, they create opportunities for U.S. businesses, expanding our trade and helping make our country more prosperous. The president's first international trip during this administration proves this time we expand on relationships in the gulf, expand them from security to prosperity. The developments in syria and the weakening of the iranian proxies nationwide are creating an opportunity across the northern middle east.
▶ 0:42:15Mr. Rayburn: Attention to in the conflict between turkey and the pkk, a conflict that has been a source of violence for almost half of a century. The parties are signaling and openne to end it in the united states has a strong interest in using our diplomatic influence" to bring that about. Resolving the conflict would be game changing for the people of turkey, iraq and syria in particular. Alongside these opportunities, there are some risks and dangers to our interests.
▶ 0:42:43Mr. Rayburn: The conflict that began with hamas's october 7, 20 23 attacks on israel must be brought to a conclusion in which the hostages are returned home and hamas no longer poses a significant military threat. The president has been clear, hamas cannot continue as a military or government force. The president also envisions a better future for the palestinian people. That's why the president has worked with israel and our allies to support these goals.
▶ 0:43:14Mr. Rayburn: Another concern is the threat of jihadist terrorist groups such as isis and al qaeda. We must remain vigilant to ensure isis's remnants cannot exploit regional political conflicts to make a comeback. Our relationships in the region must be a bulwark against efforts in china. That includes engaging partners in the public and private sectors of the dangers of deploying chinese technology.
▶ 0:43:43Mr. Rayburn: The united states has a strong interest in ensuring that our allies integrate into U.S. technology, economic and security systems and prevent chinese presence in the region. I know secretary rubio is clear eyed about the challenges of the region. Conflict, terrorism, economic integration and iran's continuing attempt to stabilize -- destabilize its neighbors.
▶ 0:44:08Mr. Rayburn: He also recognizes the potential for breakthroughs that would have enormous benefit for america and international security. If confirmed, I look forward to helping guide the U.S. diplomacy to these goals and working with the committee on these issues. Make you for your time and I look forward to your questions. I want to offer a specific thanks to senator hagerty for his generous introduction.
▶ 0:44:35Chair Risch: , the
▶ 0:44:40Chair Risch: , -- Mr. pratt, the floor is yours.
▶ 0:44:42Mr. Pratt: Thank you. I am honored to be nominated to serve as assistant secretary of state and grateful for secretary rubio support. If confirmed, I'm committed to working hand-in-hand with this committee and congress to advance our nations security priorities. Particularly in foreign military sales reform, technology licensing, security cooperation and export controls.
▶ 0:45:09Mr. Pratt: Throughout my career in public service, I've worked at the intersection of diplomacy, security and national interest. At the state to parma, I served as deputy special presidential on for -- that experience underscored the importance of collaboration across government agencies and with our elected representatives to protect and serve the american people.
▶ 0:45:34Mr. Pratt: Since my nomination, I have had valuable discussions with many of you and your staff regarding the national security challenges for example, china is to pursue policies that undermine U.S. interests across the globe iran remains a destabilizing force. North korea continues to advance its weapons programs. And nonstate actors resist seeking ways to harm the united states and are allies.
▶ 0:46:04Mr. Pratt: In this complex environment, strengthening our relationships with key allies in order to advance our national interests remain paramount. One of our most critical and enduring partnerships is with israel. As president trump has unequivocally stated, the unite states must remain a steadfast partner to israel as it faces growing threats from terrorist organizations and organizations a in the region.
▶ 0:46:29Mr. Pratt: If confirmed, I will work to -- and continues to serve our mutual strategic interests, while addressing humanitarian rights issues. Despite today's threats, I am optimistic. I believe in the power of american diplomacy, when supported by strategic alignment between the state department, congress and our interagency partners.
▶ 0:46:55Mr. Pratt: As secretary rubio has noted, the state department must be a force multiplier, expanding america first policies that make our nation safer, stronger and more prosperous. If confirmed, I will ensure that the bureau of political military affairs is a proactive and collaborative partner in that mission. If confirmed, the mission will be to -- the pm bureau plays a central role in ensuring that U.S.
▶ 0:47:25Mr. Pratt: Diplomatic and military efforts are aligned an mutually reinforcing. This includes ensuring military personnel abroad are secured with the agreements and frameworks necessary to operate with maximum protections and the full backing of our civilian leadership. Another key focus area is improving the efficiency and effectiveness of U.S. foreign military sales. These programs are vital. Not only to strengthening our security partnerships abroad, but also to supporting the U.S. defense industrial base and american jobs at home.
▶ 0:47:56Mr. Pratt: I'm committed to working with congress to streamline processes, reduce unnecessary delays and implement president trump's recent executive order. If confirmed, working with congress to streamline regulatory processes will be a critical component of my agenda. I will work in close consultation with congress to ensure that our regulatory frameworks remain rigorous. While also enabling U.S.
▶ 0:48:24Mr. Pratt: Companies to compete and innovate any rapidly evolving global defense marketplace. And every area of my response ability will be devoted and rooted in partnership. Test responsibility will be -- responsibility will be routed and devoted in partnership. Thank you for this opportunity to appear before you. I look forward to your questions.
▶ 0:48:52Mr. Pratt: If confirmed, working closely to you. For national police week, I want to give a shout out to our brothers and sisters in law enforcement.
▶ 0:49:04Chair Risch: Thank you very much. Mr. desombre. >> I am honored to appear before you today as the nominee for secretary of state in east asian affairs. I appreciate the time the members and staff of this committee have spent with me. If confirmed, I look forward to working closely with each of you. On a personal look, I would like to thank my wife and four children for their support I desire to serve our great country.
▶ 0:49:34Chair Risch: My wife, jean and I met and married while in law school and have been married for over 32 years. Jean has been my inspiration and we built our respective professional careers while raising four wonderful children. Winona, gabrielle, michael ray and phoenix. Even the challenges of our large multi-career family, only my daughter and her husband and my son are able to be here today. I would like to thank my parents, eugene and nancy for their support.
▶ 0:50:03Chair Risch: Mom and dad were not able to make it here in person but I know they are watching the livestream in chicago. Since a young age, I have been motivated to serve our country. I believe my experience in economic, legal, strategic and diplomatic matters over the past 35 years is directly relevant to the position for which I've been nominated. I'm excited to have the opportunity to work in the most consequential region of the world.
▶ 0:50:27Chair Risch: I've been a student of strategic issues since the late 1980's when I received my masters degree in east asian studies, focusing on chinese military and east foreign policy. I built my academic background in -- as a congressional career. I have seen firsthand the tremendous opportunities for america and asia as well as the challenges presented by china's economic modernization. While living and working in hong kong and china.
▶ 0:50:55Chair Risch: As head of sullivan -- I have advised many organizations on complex transactions. I have lived or worked in many of the countries within the ep region and advise clients on high-stakes negotiations in those countries. I was on it to have had the opportunity to serve as the united states ambassador to the king -- of the king of thailand in 2020. Where I led an outstanding team on behalf of the american people.
▶ 0:51:23Chair Risch: If confirmed, I will apply my background in law, commerce, strategic issues and diplomacy in asia to implement the president's foreign policy priorities in the middle pacific. I will ensure that all follow -- all follows ensure president trump's tests. Does this make us safer and more prosperous? It will focus on three priority.
▶ 0:51:49Chair Risch: First, to promote strength and secured by working closely with our allies, partners and friends in the indo pacific to enhance deterrence and counter blind activities by our adversaries. Second, to promote U.S. prosperity through riposte -- riposte diplomacy -- robust diplomacy. Third, make the united states safer by limiting the flow of fentanyl.
▶ 0:52:18Chair Risch: When training corporations negotiate in asia, I recommend a style of hard on the issues, soft on the people. Hard on the issues means in this context, and unwavering commitment to focusing exclusively on what is good for america, putting america first. Soft on the people means it is almost always useful to develop personal relationships to help achieve the best results on the issues.
▶ 0:52:41Chair Risch: If confirmed as assistant secretary, I commit to spending substantial time traveling the region to develop the necessary relationships to achieve results for the american people. I also am committed to leading the very sympathies in the ap with a high touch method.
▶ 0:52:56Chair Risch: Consistent with my practice in the private sector, if confirmed , I would speak personally and often with the bachelors on the field to convey the president's and secretaries foreign polic ies. In addition to promoting U.S. diplomatic and security interests, if confirmed, I will focus on expanding commercial opportunities which, in turn, will reinforce our national security efforts.
▶ 0:53:23Chair Risch: This was an area of focus as my this was an area of focus as ambassador. Chairman risch, ranking member shaheen and member's of the committee, I approach this nomination with a sense of excitement and responsibility.
▶ 0:53:39Chair Risch: I look forward to working with you to make america safer, stronger and more prosperous if confirmed, by addressing issues patient our nation -- facing our nation in one of the most consequential regions in the world.
▶ 0:53:55Chair Risch: We will do a round of five-minute questions. I will start with Mr. desombre, you and Mr. rayburn. When president trump left office, we had been under 200,000 barrels of oil a day that they were able to sell. That is putting the hurt on them.
▶ 0:54:18Chair Risch: After that, it has gone up almost 2 million -- two almost -- to almost 2 million barrels per day. I would like to get your thoughts on that and how you would go about assisting in that regard.
▶ 0:54:44Chair Risch: Again, I appreciate you haven't taken office yet but your thoughts if you would, starting with you, Mr. rayburn.
▶ 0:54:51Mr. Rayburn: Thank you for the question. This is an important issue. The president has made it clear it's his policy to bring a maximum pressure approach back on the iranian regime. Particularly on his revenue streams, driven by oil exports, you are correct. In the first trump administration, I was part of generating the apparatus that enforced those sanctions and was able to cut the flow of iranian oil exports.
▶ 0:55:20Mr. Rayburn: That is why, for example, disrupting the ghost fleet of vessels that the uranian regime uses then by engaging with our allies and partners and with the insurance sector, with the flagging countries, for example, in order to make it so that it is difficult for the iranian regime to physically move the oil in addition to also enforcing sanctions on the financial side.
▶ 0:55:48Mr. Rayburn: So they are unable to move the money that goes along with those transactions. We had great results, senator. I think we can ramp that and enforce the apparatus back up and beat the performance.
▶ 0:56:00Chair Risch: We hope you can dust off the apparatus and crank it up a little bit and put the maximum pressure as possible. Wister desombre, your thoughts?
▶ 0:56:09Mr. Desombre: Thank you. This requires efforts around the world. I believe 90% of oil experts from iran go to china. Bus stopping those exports and affecting that is something of critical importance of -- thus stopping those exports and affecting that is something of critical importance.
▶ 0:56:36Mr. Desombre: These are critical issues and if I'm confirmed and if joel rayburn is confirmed, we can work together on these issues.
▶ 0:56:43Chair Risch: We look forward to it. Mr. rayburn, I want to talk about syria for a minute. On december 8, we all partied and felt well about it till we fi f found out who it was that took over. The new administration has a checkered past. Having said that, it is quite a ways in the past. Number two, they started saying and doing the right things since they took over.
▶ 0:57:15Chair Risch: I think it's -- I don't want to speak for the ranking member paul you talked about this at some length. We think this is an opportunity, really, to get in there. We have discussed this. We met with the foreign minister before in munich earlier this year. And talked with him about their thoughts and plans. We have been pursued by all sides.
▶ 0:57:41Chair Risch: I self in this committee and senator shaheen were intra-mental -- instrumental in getting procedures put in place that we think at least helped assad go down. We were under pressure to do the opposite of that. We had ripped -- the president asked to relieve the sanctions and now he has done that. A little more robustly than we had in mind. We are waiting and seeing.
▶ 0:58:12Chair Risch: The sanctions were taken off. They can be put back on. We will continue to watch this. We hope this works out. Syria is a proud country with a long history. They have the ability to do this. Whether they can do it or not remains to be seen. In any event, your thoughts on where we are headed? >> sensor, thank you for raising this. The president is giving the syrian people and authorities a golden opportunity.
▶ 0:58:42Chair Risch: A chance to rebuild after half a century under oppressive rule and especially the debilitating war that they went through and the war the people suffered, largely at the hands of the assad regime. He's giving them a chance to turn the page on the and charting a new course. He's been very clear as has secretary rubio that there are expectations.
▶ 0:59:06Chair Risch: As we move along the path, as the united states moves along the path of giving them this opportunity, the president has certain expectations. Secretary rubio has laid out certain expectations that they are going to move and turn the page commensurately. Including by a normalization agreement with israel. Including by deporting palestinian terrorists. By telling foreign terrorists, foreign fighters that they have to leave syria. By assisting in the international, U.S.
▶ 0:59:36Chair Risch: Led international campaign by isis to make sure isis doesn't make a resurgence. Also, to take responsibility for the isis detention centers in northeast syria. These are parallel tracks and both sides had a golden opportunity to move that country into a much brighter future. >> thank you, Mr. rayburn. That administration is aware of our citations. The list that you described.
▶ 1:00:02Chair Risch: Discuss discussed this with both the president and mark wood, the secretary -- marco rubio, the secretary of state. And laid out the expectations that shaheen and I laid out. We got no pushback at all. I might add one more item that is important to us. I think both president and secretary of state will feel the same way.
▶ 1:00:30Chair Risch: That is that we have an expectation that the tolerance for various religions, and it is a complex society, technically is important to the success of that country. We will have to wait and see if they continue with that. That is going to be critical to their success. With that, senator shaheen?
▶ 1:01:00Sen. Shaheen: Thank you, Mr. chairman. Mr. rayburn, to follow-up on chairman risch's comments, if confirmed, will you commit to swiftly moving to ensure the sanctions are lifted in a positive way in syria?
▶ 1:01:19Mr. Rayburn: Thank you for the question. If confirmed, I will carry out the president's instructions to implement the guidance the president has laid out, yes. >> I appreciate that.
▶ 1:01:35Mr. Rayburn: I have been concerned by some rumors that I heard in some circles that have been repeated to me by people from the middle east that they have heard in foreign policy of the administration that one option that has been suggested is assassinating the new leader of the syrian government.
▶ 1:01:57Mr. Rayburn: Can you talk about the implications of that kind of action and what that would mean you in the region?
▶ 1:02:06Mr. Rayburn: Not familiar with efforts like that. But that is clearly not in line with the president's intention that he stated. >> I agree. His meeting sounded like it was positive and that is good news.
▶ 1:02:28Sen. Shaheen: One of the things that was pointed out to us was that a change in leadership of that kind would create an all-out civil war in syria that would not be good to take advantage of the opportunity that we currently have to move that country forward.
▶ 1:02:52Sen. Shaheen: I was surprised when you were talking about opportunities that we have that you didn't mention lebanon in your opening statement. I would argue that we also have that kind of opportunity in syria. That we have in lebanon right now as well with the new leadership there very one of the important -- new leadership there.
▶ 1:03:12Sen. Shaheen: One of the important -- do the work that they need to do to help clear the hezbollah out of southern lebanon and to disarm many of the armaments that have been brought into the country. Can you talk about how, if confirmed, you would look at supporting the laf and helping to ensure that lebanon continues to forward?
▶ 1:03:39Mr. Rayburn: Thank you for raising up. I named lebanon as an area where there is a golden opportunity to build on. Having suffered some strategic setbacks in order to make sure -- so that for example, what I stated was that syria and lebanon can no longer be used by the rainy regime as a platform to try to destabilized the
▶ 1:04:10Mr. Rayburn: Neighboring region. The new lebanese government has a golden opportunity to take advantage of that. And I know that the administration is working very closely with the lebanese authorities to help them, to help empower them and be able to take advantage of that opportunity. The lebanese armed forces is part of that.
▶ 1:04:32Mr. Rayburn: Part of the plan for following up on the cease-fire in southern lebanon, in order to try to stabilize the lebanon-israel border in a way that has not been true for more than 40 years. I think it is a very good opportunity. The lebanese authorities, the new lebanese government, under president alan and the lebanese army, they need to seize the opportunity. In the past, they have had capacity problems.
▶ 1:05:01Mr. Rayburn: There has been a problem with political will. It seems like things are changing in beirut now. There is an opportunity for them to move forward in a way that has not been possible before.
▶ 1:05:10Sen. Shaheen: If confirmed in your new role, how can you support that effort?
▶ 1:05:16Mr. Rayburn: If I'm confirmed, senator, we use our diplomacy. My colleague here, if he's confirmed, we would work together to make sure that lebanese authorities have what they need to have in order to do their part. Enforcing the cease-fire, stabilizing the southern border and ensuring that hezbollah or any other group can't use that lebanese territory against israel or any of their neighbors.
▶ 1:05:43Sen. Shaheen: Mr. pratt, we talked about you and in your opening statement, you talked about foreign military sales and the importance of those and how to better put in place a process that works to support our allies. One of the other areas that has been a real challenge for our allies and for our own defense industrial base has been the international traffic in arms regulation, or itar.
▶ 1:06:15Sen. Shaheen: How can you -- how would you work in your new position to , if confirmed, make the process work but also continue to safeguard sensitive U.S. technology.
▶ 1:06:30Mr. Pratt: Thank you for that question. A fun fact about when the president of the united states nominates you to be assistant secretary for political military affairs, I would estimate a good 70% of all human interaction afterward involves complaints about itar. [laughter]
▶ 1:06:55Sen. Shaheen: That sounds right.
▶ 1:06:59Mr. Pratt: Last week, I won't reveal the contents of the discussion but I assure you I have a very clear mandate to deal with itar. And, as you point out, it's very important to keep our most exquisite technology out of the hands of our enemies. But, there is a lot of work to be done. To make it more efficient and more effective. Look forward to working with this committee to make that happen. -- I look forward to working with this committee to make that happen.
▶ 1:07:29Sen. Shaheen: I'm out of time by look forward to hearing more about what you think we should be doing there.
▶ 1:07:36Chair Risch: Chair risch:
▶ 1:07:41Chair Risch: Chair Mr. pratt, yu underline how important it is. It's the other side, trying to move along and get stuff into the hands of people faster. I think part of it is just the -- that they have these arcadian rules that overlay everything. It seems to me, every time I've been involved in this on a case-by-case basis, that is a much better way to handle those, rather than some overall policy.
▶ 1:08:11Chair Risch: Anyway, I know you are up to the task and we will chat again about it sometime here. With that, senator ricketts.
▶ 1:08:18Sen. Ricketts: Mr. rayburn, president trump has been very clear that when it comes to iran, he's talking about a deal that involves total disarmament of their nuclear program. No enrichment, new newtonian processes, -- plutonian processes, nothing like that.
▶ 1:08:43Sen. Ricketts: Allowing iran to enrich in any level would allow them to use a weapons of great for an iranian nuclear weapon. It would be dangerous not only to us but our allies like israel. That's one of the reasons why president trump was trying to withdraw from the iranian nuclear deal before. Iran doesn't even use the uranium it is enriching in its nuclear reactors. It is powering the nuclear reactors with russian uranium.
▶ 1:09:12Sen. Ricketts: Everything is going toward this program to create nuclear weapons. Yesterday, senator cruz, myself and tom cotton along with 49 of our republican colleagues wrote letters to be president reinforcing that iran cannot be allowed to have a nuclear program and they need to have total nuclear disarmament. I appreciate my colleagues joining me in that.
▶ 1:09:38Sen. Ricketts: The goal is to strengthen the president's hand when he's negotiating with iranians. Do you agree with special envoy rickoff?
▶ 1:09:55Mr. Rayburn: I do agree.
▶ 1:09:57Sen. Ricketts: Does iran need a device to enrichment program to have a nuclear power program?
▶ 1:10:05Mr. Rayburn: No, senator. There are literally dozens of countries in the world that have civil nuclear programs. Where they don't have the enrichment capability, they by the fuel from third parties and they reprocess that senate fuel.
▶ 1:10:23Sen. Ricketts: Given ron's history, how important is it for us to have a strong verification program for any deal we would be able to do with iran?
▶ 1:10:37Mr. Rayburn: It's essential because the iranians have not operated in good faith, even under the terms of the jcpoa. They have exceeded limits that were allowed under the jcpoa as well as -- the rest of the pattern of their behavior since 1979 indicates they have to have stringent oversight.
▶ 1:11:06Sen. Ricketts: Do you think total disarmament of the program is the only way we can truly know they don't have a nuclear weapons program?
▶ 1:11:16Mr. Rayburn: I think that's the president, and secretary rubio's and determination. I think it is wise that the armenians don't need an -- iranians don't need and should not have their own nuclear capability. If they are interested, they can buy the fuel from third parties. They don't need their own enrichment capability.
▶ 1:11:43Sen. Ricketts: Last month, -- the impression that was left on all of us was we need partners willing to do what is necessary for self-defense in the face of increasing aggression from beijing.
▶ 1:12:06Sen. Ricketts: Taiwan citizens are being galvanized and prepared for invasion and resisting coercion from the chinese government -- communist government china. On defense spending, taiwan's legislature approved the national -- largest ever national defense budget. They twe have to do better.
▶ 1:12:33Sen. Ricketts: Whether it is howard sirs or m-16s -- howitzers or m-16s -- we have hit on this already, Mr. pratt. My understanding is these delays were industrial base and they are struggling to meet demand and bureaucratic hurdles and delays in the arm sales process read what actions can you do to help taiwan -- process. What actions can you do to help taiwan get more of the
▶ 1:13:07Mr. Pratt: Thank you for that, senator. Taiwan is the most important part of the region. It faces the most asymmetric threat in the history of the world. We are certainly very committed.
▶ 1:13:24Mr. Pratt: I cannot speak to the existing problems you mentioned but I am very committed is confirmed to taking a comprehensive review of how we can help taiwan and increase our support.
▶ 1:13:40Sen. Ricketts: One action congress can take his elevate taiwan into the nato plus category for shorter timelines and higher thresholds when it comes to dcs. I introduced a bill, the porcupine act, that would do just that. What do you think of that idea?
▶ 1:14:02Mr. Pratt: I am very familiar with that effort and very supportive of taking a hard look to figure out the best way forward.
▶ 1:14:10Sen. Ricketts: Thank you.
▶ 1:14:12Chair Risch: Senator murphy.
▶ 1:14:15Sen. Murphy: I was very interested to hear the exchange regarding the ways in which the trump administration is thinking about a deal with iran. It seems mottled to us up on this committee.
▶ 1:14:38Sen. Murphy: You would hear about the trump administration be willing to enrich -- the president posted an article that outlined a deal that would allow iran to have enrichment capabilities. I look forward to this continued conversation. In the end, if a deal gets struck in which iran makes promises never to obtain a nuclear weapon but is given the ability to enrich to a certain level, that sounds a lot like the jcpoa.
▶ 1:15:06Sen. Murphy: What a tragedy it would be to have thrown that out the window to just reenter a deal on very similar parameters. I also appreciated the answer you gave on the president's decision to remove serious sanctions.
▶ 1:15:24Sen. Murphy: I am interested in your views because there is a washington post report this morning that says some of trump's own officials are mounting a quiet but determined action to undermine president trump's syria policy, which is to lift all sanctions. I think the president is right. It is time to lift the sanctions and give the syrian regime a shot. There is reporting there are members of his team that are seeking to undermine that decision.
▶ 1:15:54Sen. Murphy: Are you part of the group that is described here that is trying to convince the president not to lift sanctions on syria?
▶ 1:16:01Mr. Rayburn: Senator, thank you for the question. As a private citizen I am not in the U.S. government. I am not a part of the policy system. The president has been very clear with his policy guidance. If I'm confirmed I will implement the president's policy as handed to me also by secretary rubio and that has been very clear.
▶ 1:16:26Sen. Murphy: You have written extensively on this topic. Do you want to share your personal views with us on whether the president's right to pursue a release of the sanctions?
▶ 1:16:38Mr. Rayburn: Senator, I support the president's goals and his initiative that he laid out in the last 48 hours. As I said to senator shaheen and senator risch, there is a golden opportunity to turn the page on more than half a century of syria being a failed state and its people suffering. The president is taking a bold move to give the syrians an opportunity to grasp that.
▶ 1:17:08Mr. Rayburn: He has expectations that he has laid out. This is a policy that if I'm confirmed I will be implementing.
▶ 1:17:13Sen. Murphy: Help us understand the advice you were going to give the president regarding the investments being made by gulf nations in the president's businesses and the direct gifts being made to the president. I disagree with the president's decision to do business deals with foreign nations and sovereign wealth funds and companies controlled by foreign nations while he is in office.
▶ 1:17:43Sen. Murphy: I think the reason the announcement on the gift of the plane was so shocking is because this was different. This was not an investment in a trump business, it was just a gift of a $400 million luxury plane, not to the U.S. government but apparently to trump himself because he would be allowed to take it with them to his library -- whatever that will be -- after he is out of office.
▶ 1:18:13Sen. Murphy: Help us understand what the line is. The american people do not understand what is ethical and what is not. What advice you as his chief advisor for the middle east would give him. If it is ok for the president to get investments in his businesses, a gift to the presidential library, what is not ok? Would it be ok for a foreign government to hand him an envelope of cash? Explain to the american people what the line is here.
▶ 1:18:41Mr. Rayburn: Thank you for the opportunity to to address this. I am not in the system. I am not part of the review process at this stage. I am not privy to the engagemes.
▶ 1:18:52Sen. Murphy: You have obviously seen -- you know what the debate is. On this issue it is important to hear your personal views. Where do you think the line exists? Could you give an example of a gift or a payment to the president of the united states that would be unethical or illegal or you would advise against?
▶ 1:19:18Mr. Rayburn: My personal view and in my experience, the white house and president trump will follow all laws and guidelines that govern gifts. I have no doubt the process will be followed to the letter.
▶ 1:19:32Sen. Murphy: You do not believe the gift of the plane violates at the very least a clause of the constitution?
▶ 1:19:39Mr. Rayburn: I am not in the system and I'm not involved in the process but I'm confident the white house and president will follow all the laws and ethical guidelines governing the reception of gifts.
▶ 1:19:50Sen. Murphy: That is not terribly confidence inspiring.
▶ 1:19:54Chair Risch: Next we have Mr. paul.
▶ 1:20:03Sen. Paul: You were preceded by james jeffrey, what do you think of the job he did as U.S. envoy?
▶ 1:20:14Mr. Rayburn: Thank you for that question. I served as his de facto deputy with the title of special envoy for syria. We were working very hard to bring pressure on the assad regime to try to bring an end to the conflict. We did not succeed with that by the end of the trump administration but I thought we got pretty close to bring enough pressure to bear.
▶ 1:20:40Sen. Paul: Do you share his worldview?
▶ 1:20:44Mr. Rayburn: Excuse me, senator.
▶ 1:20:46Sen. Paul: Do you share his worldview?
▶ 1:20:50Mr. Rayburn: Senator, I have my own worldview.
▶ 1:20:53Sen. Paul: Do you consider him to be a role model, mentor, someone you admired?
▶ 1:21:00Mr. Rayburn: It was a very close colleague. I work closer with ambassador jeffrey than anyone else in my government career.
▶ 1:21:08Sen. Paul: And your close work with him, when president trump asked the troops to be removed after the defeat of isis james jeffrey admitted we were always playing shell games to not make it clear how many troops we have there.
▶ 1:21:24Mr. Rayburn: I remember the incident you were talking about. He gave an interview to the media after he left office and he made some comments that were inaccurate. They were not correct.
▶ 1:21:37Sen. Paul: Were you aware at the time there was a game being played with the numbers to try to trick trump into thinking the troops were -- ambassador jeffrey would go on and on saying he thinks there are 200 but we are playing shell games and there are a lot more. Were you aware this was going on?
▶ 1:21:57Mr. Rayburn: That was a very unfortunate comment by ambassador jeffrey. As a state department person, we had no role in reporting troop members to the president.
▶ 1:22:08Sen. Paul: Were you aware of any deception on the part of james jeffrey or others or complicit in that deception as to how many troops there were in syria?
▶ 1:22:18Mr. Rayburn: Absolutely not. Never participated in any such thing and never would have. I never saw it.
▶ 1:22:26Sen. Paul: Where you part of an email exchange discussing troop levels?
▶ 1:22:33Mr. Rayburn: Not to my knowledge, senator.
▶ 1:22:34Sen. Paul: Did you have any oral conversation with jeffrey about reporting numbers to maintain troop numbers?
▶ 1:22:42Mr. Rayburn: No, sir.
▶ 1:22:45Sen. Paul: It bothers me quite a bit. What james jeffrey did is tantamount to treason. This was not the first time he had made a statement that donald trump was not qualified to be president, lacks character values and experience. Continues to display an alarming ignorance of politics and lacks the temperament to be president.
▶ 1:23:16Sen. Paul: It was amazing he was still there and also amazing you still consider him to be a close colleague. That does disturb me. When he made his comments in 2019, did you make any public comments disavowing what he said or sing it was untrue, his comments regarding hiding troop levels from donald trump?
▶ 1:23:37Mr. Rayburn: Actually, senator, I testified before the house foreign affairs committee shortly after that and I received the question and I responded to did not happen. In my experience, what ambassador jeffrey unfortunately mischaracterized in an immediate interview absolutely did not happen. It did not happen, senator. It did not happen.
▶ 1:24:03Chair Risch: Ok.
▶ 1:24:06Sen. Kaine: Thank you to the witnesses. I will pick up on senator murphy's line of questions about the offer of the plane. It is not really a question but a message. If folks from qatar arm watching this, you have made a mistake by putting this offer on the table.
▶ 1:24:31Sen. Kaine: If the offer had been because of delays in producing the next version of air force one, we have a jet that we will make available to whoever the U.S. president is until that aircraft -- next aircraft is complete. Who would have raised questions? Is this consistent with security protocols with the president? Can it be defended? Does it need to be updated? How much will the update cost?
▶ 1:25:02Sen. Kaine: There would be some questions about whether this was trying to curry favor with the trump administration. . If it was an evenhanded offer, here is something the U.S. can do until the next iteration of air force one is complete. It is for president trump and when you are done in office this is for you to take to the presidential library.
▶ 1:25:27Sen. Kaine: Qatar is badly damaging any reputation you have for credibility on the hill by making that offer. I read yesterday's story that said the offer is still under consideration. I would urge you in the strongest possible terms to change the offer to make sure it is not an offer to a particular individual like president trump.
▶ 1:25:54Sen. Kaine: Because by doing that you will lead us to question your motivations for a very long time. You will damage the reputation -- let's be honest, qatar has done a number of things the U.S. has viewed as positive in terms of facilitating hostage release in gaza. Qatar has also done a number of things that have caused members of this committee grave concern, including harboring hamas leaders in qatar.
▶ 1:26:23Sen. Kaine: I will not try to give president trump advised because he will not follow my advice. But if qatar wants a long-term relationship with all branches of the U.S. government you are about to commit a grievous error that is likely to be eight permanent stain on your ethical record. Second, Mr. pratt, you were asked a question earlier in a back-and-forth about senator risch, you talked about one of your big headaches disconfirmed.
▶ 1:26:50Sen. Kaine: Senator shaheen and I were in an instructive armed services hearing and the witnesses were independent witnesses who have experience at the pentagon but were coming at it from the dod side. Talking about frustrations on the dod side with the process. I would urge you and your team to look at that testimony and hearing. I know this will be a headache for you but I appreciate you making it a priority.
▶ 1:27:22Sen. Kaine: A question -- I will go to Mr. desombre first. I am a big supporter. I think the framework around sub production, pillar 2 open ended. It is something that can include other nations.
▶ 1:27:44Sen. Kaine: If the big ten can have 16 teams, this can have -- talk about the value you see and how you would want to make sure we harvest the upside of that arrangement.
▶ 1:27:57Mr. Desombre: Thank you very much for the question and thank you for making your staff available to meet with me. We are celebrating the 74th anniversary of the treaty with australia. One of our longest allies in the region. That gives us the opportunity to strengthen that relationship.
▶ 1:28:23Mr. Desombre: Nuclear powered submarine and pillar 2 with regard to code development. My understanding that the administration is committed and it is part of our strategy as a in this -- indicated.
▶ 1:28:43Sen. Kaine: I appreciate that and look forward to working with you on that.
▶ 1:28:49Chair Risch: Sen. hagerty: thank you. I have known you as a soldier, as a gentleman, as a man whose integrity is beyond reproach. I am more than willing to personally vouch for your character and integrity today in front of my colleagues.
▶ 1:29:16Chair Risch: I am extremely troubled by any attempt to somehow use guilt by association with someone you might have worked with as a soldier but certainly not responsible for comments they might have made to the media, etc. You have been one of the most loyal members of the former trump administration. I would like to open the floor to you. What would you consider your greatest contribution during the first trump administration to national security?
▶ 1:29:44Mr. Rayburn: Senator, thank you for the opportunity. You are absolutely right. In the first trump administration, during the campaign for president and the current administration, even in my capacity as a private citizen, I support the president's policies 100%. I have supported the president's policies and ideas for america when he first announced his candidacy in 2015.
▶ 1:30:16Mr. Rayburn: I was proud of the opportunity I had to serve on the national security council staff to try to bring fresh eyes to the most critical national security problems we faced.
▶ 1:30:26Sen. Hagerty: I would say one of the greatest achievements I think president trump could point to in his first term where the abraham accords. You played a critical role there. Can you enlighten the committee about what you can say?
▶ 1:30:41Mr. Rayburn: Absolutely, senator. There are many people who contributed on the abraham accords. I was proud to play a small part in the run-up to the abraham accords and in my role at the state department, a supporting role.
▶ 1:31:00Mr. Rayburn: Including taking the necessary steps of implementing the president's policy to show that we were willing to neutralize the threat from the iranian regime in order to create the political space for our allies and partners to make the historic agreements, to reach peace between partners and our israeli allies so they could be confident and take the political
▶ 1:31:30Mr. Rayburn: Risk they had to take in order to make the concessions and work with our israeli allies to work with our air partners and allies to bring that about. I was very proud of that and still m.
▶ 1:31:41Sen. Hagerty: I am, too. I worked hard to get secondary sanctions. Maximum pressure works. You worked on the prosperity piece of that equation. Demonstrated under president trump with your assistance, it made a massive contribution. I want to be clear those contributions should be viewed in the light of who you are.
▶ 1:32:10Sen. Hagerty: Certainly any attempt to try to tide them to someone else that is not you, someone you might have reported to because that is the chain of command you respect as a soldier, I think that is wholly inappropriate. I encourage my colleagues to look at the fine person sitting before us and his qualifications. Your charge of head of east asian and pacific affairs will be challenging.
▶ 1:32:42Sen. Hagerty: You have a lot of time to consider this, you have lived and worked in the region. You understand the culture. I would like to get your thoughts on your priorities with respect to the economic prosperity and how you might use that tool. Other ideas you may have in terms of strengthening our posture in the region.
▶ 1:33:02Mr. Desombre: Thank you very much for the question. This was one of my top priorities when I was ambassador to thailand. To strengthen the economic partnership and use the toolkit we have at our availability. A lot of that includes the strength of our U.S. companies.
▶ 1:33:21Mr. Desombre: I rolled out a deal to process in thailand where I took interagency people across fou different industries -- four different industries. The fourth one was technology.
▶ 1:33:43Mr. Desombre: Managed to push opportunities to make sure the team was looking at any opportunity for american companies to come to thailand and for thai companies to come back to america. There is a big gas field between thailand and vietnam that is currently not exploited because of overlapping claims issues because of ownership between thailand and cambodia.
▶ 1:34:09Mr. Desombre: Trying to solve those issues and helping them develop their own resources while using american companies like chevron to be involved. My plan is to roll out those initiatives across all of the ap and make sure we use commercial diplomacy to strengthen relationships between all asian countries and america.
▶ 1:34:27Chair Risch: Senator rosen.
▶ 1:34:30Sen. Rosen: Thank you, Mr. chairman. I want to think our witnesses for testifying today and your families and friends who are here with you today. Mr. rayburn, thank you for meeting with me earlier this week. It was a productive conversation. I will turn to you, Mr. rayburn, and talk about negotiations. You have not been involved in the ongoing negotiations between the U.S.
▶ 1:34:58Sen. Rosen: And iran, the outcome of these talks will have a profound impact on political dynamics in the middle east and on your role, if confirmed. As you mentioned while iran is at its weakest point in decades, we need to ensure it does not rebound. I would like to ask you about what you think a U.S.-iran deal can and should look like and how we best take advantage of this historic low point for iranian power in the region?
▶ 1:35:27Sen. Rosen: In addition to focusing on iran 's nuclear program, should a potential deal also address proxy support for terrorists and ballistic missiles?
▶ 1:35:39Mr. Rayburn: Thank you for the question. I also appreciated the time you gave to meet with you to discuss these issues the other day. You are absolutely right. The president, secretary rubio have been quite clear that if there is to be a deal, as you said, I am not part of the negotiations, I am outside the government so I can just observe. It seems their position is clear.
▶ 1:36:08Mr. Rayburn: If there is to be an agreement it needs to include a total dismantlement of the iranian's nuclear program. That includes the facilities, centrifuges and so on. There are many technical ways that can be accomplished.
▶ 1:36:28Mr. Rayburn: Both the president and others in the administration have mentioned there will be a need for the iranian regime to forgo its sponsorship of its militant proxy terrorist network that has destabilized the region. The president has made clear without that, october 7 in his view would have never happened. To prevent the threat of an october 7 future event, that needs to happen.
▶ 1:36:56Mr. Rayburn: There is a general consensus on the need for the iranian ballistic missile and uav programs which are being proliferated now and being used in ukraine to create detriment. For those to be restricted, as well.
▶ 1:37:11Sen. Rosen: Thank you. I will stay on this topic and talk about the abraham accords expansion. Last week it was reported that U.S. is dropping its demand that saudi arabia normalize ties with israel as a condition for progress on civil nuclear cooperation. As you noted in your opening statement normalizing relations since between saudi arabia and israel has been a bipartisan effort for years and would transform the middle east.
▶ 1:37:40Sen. Rosen: As a leading champion of the abraham accords I cannot push back on this new strong enough. Needlessly giving up the greatest leverage we have at this critical moment would be a momentous mistake. Mr. rayburn, do you think it would be wise to drop the demand for normalization of saudi arabia as part of a deal to access civilian nuclear capabilities?
▶ 1:38:01Mr. Rayburn: Thank you for the question. I do not have visibility on the negotiations that are going on, the engagement going on concerning normalization. To my mind, just as a longtime analyst, observer of the region, thick normalization between saudi arabia and israel is bound to happen because it makes so much sense.
▶ 1:38:30Mr. Rayburn: The logic is so strong for both sides, the surrounding region and the united states. I have confidence there can be a diplomatic path forward to making it happen in the not-too-distant future.
▶ 1:38:41Sen. Rosen: Thank you. I will stay with you on this question and I will go very quickly because we have to present the rise of extremism -- we have to prevent the rise of extremism. I will go very quickly. We have to repatriate people from the camps, third-party nationals, it has to happen thoughtfully. How can the U.S.
▶ 1:39:05Sen. Rosen: Worked with syria and other countries to repatriate refugees in a way that promotes the youngest and most vulnerable in the group are protected, not to be recruited for future threats?
▶ 1:39:21Mr. Rayburn: Senator, thank you for raising that. You are right. In a lot of ways the people that are housed there are the remnants of the isis caliphate. If it is not addressed it is a ticking time bomb. It has to be addressed. The de-radicalization has to be a part of that.
▶ 1:39:45Mr. Rayburn: There has to be a re-doubling -- I'm not involved in this -- there really does need to be a ramping up of our diplomatic efforts to get countries to accept the repatriation of their nationals back into those countries so they are not there in northeastern syria, just sort of waiting is a danger that could happen.
▶ 1:40:10Sen. Rosen: Thank you. I appreciate it. Senator scott, I think you and I are the only ones here so I will yield to you, my friend. [laughter]
▶ 1:40:22Sen. Scott: Congratulations on your nominations and willingness to serve. Let me start with ambassador desombre. Communist china has decided to be our enemy. They are sending drugs across the border they never complied with the trade agreement. They steal our technology.
▶ 1:40:52Sen. Scott: Many of the things they send here are unsafe. If they violate any agreement, there is no way to get records in china against them. What can you do in this new role to hold communist china accountable? If there is anyone who can get a deal that makes sense with them it is president trump. They did not even comply with the trump trade deal in his first term.
▶ 1:41:19Mr. Desombre: Thank you very much for the question. You have given a very good list of many challenges we have a china. You are definitely correct that they have been calling us our adversary and enemy for a long period of time and we need to deal with that. As I indicated, working with their allies and partners to enhance deterrence is one of our top priorities.
▶ 1:41:47Mr. Desombre: I further agree with you completely that if we are going to reach agreements with china we need to make sure we actually follow them. They need to show us what they are doing, not commit to what they will do. That is a challenge we will need to face. I will be eager to work if confirmed on trying to solve the issue and putting pressure via our allies in the region will be important.
▶ 1:42:08Sen. Scott: It is my understanding you have done quite a bit of business in hong kong. I have a friend who is a journalist who was wrongfully detained by hong kong authorities clearly doing xi's bidding. He has been in solitary confinement for over four years. Given your dollars with hong kong, are you familiar with this situation? What have you been able to do and what can you do to help him?
▶ 1:42:38Mr. Rayburn: Thank you for raising that important issue. I am very familiar with that. I'm familiar that china has engaged with repeated violations of a declaration that required them to maintain a high degree of autonomy, rule of law and democratic freedoms in hong kong. I am aware of what has happened to jimmy. President trump has called for jimmy to be freed.
▶ 1:43:03Sen. Scott: Is there anything else we can do?
▶ 1:43:06Mr. Desombre: Thank you, senator, for the christian. There are probably other things -- thank you, senator, for the question. I lived in hong kong from 1997, before the handover, until 2020 when I assumed the position of ambassador of thailand. There is a reason I did not move back to hong kong. It is personally deeply troubling to see what has happened to hong kong.
▶ 1:43:36Mr. Desombre: It is not the place that it was before.
▶ 1:43:38Sen. Scott: Mr. pratt, I just got back from a trip to europe. I met with military officials in denmark and estonia. They complained about our foreign military sales. They have watched what putin is doing, and they are afraid they will be invaded, so they want to build up their military.
▶ 1:44:06Sen. Scott: They cannot get a decision out of our government to allow them to buy the equipment they want to buy and our manufacturers do not produce it in time. In this role what did you do to change that?
▶ 1:44:18Mr. Pratt: Thank you for that question. I am familiar with those complaints. Certainly building up our partners in scandinavia is critically important to countering russian influence. If confirmed, I commit to taking a thorough review of those issues and seeing how we can get those resolved.
▶ 1:44:41Sen. Scott: It is pretty simple. This should be a streamlined way of getting this done. Say yes or no. I'm a business guy, what frustrates me is just tell me know if you are not going to sell it. We do not tell them anything, we keep them in the dark. Even when they get approval they have no idea if our manufacturers will show up in any reasonable period of time.
▶ 1:45:10Sen. Scott: Are you going to work to try to streamline the process and get our manufacturers to actually do their job?
▶ 1:45:15Mr. Pratt: Yes, sir. Again, I am familiar with those complaints and very much committed to addressing them. Part of that is working with industry. Figuring out with the problem areas are. Part of it is the department of defense and figuring out how they can be more engaged. Certainly I can work with both those partners to resolve this problem.
▶ 1:45:38Sen. Scott: Thank you.
▶ 1:45:39Chair Risch: Thank you, senator scott. >> thank you, Mr. chairman. Ambassador desombre, thank you for speaking with me in my office yesterday. If confirmed it would be your responsibility -- as ambassador to thailand I think you will be very well-positioned to do so.
▶ 1:46:07Chair Risch: We talked about how your experience in bangkok gives you insight into the value of the interagency presence in the region. Can you elaborate on positive examples of leveraging that effectively, such as the U.S. -- law enforcement and how you would like to empower missions in the region to continue that work?
▶ 1:46:27Mr. Desombre: Thank you for the question and making yourself and your staff available to meet yesterday and your support last time when I was up for nomination. I appreciate that, as well. . The nature of our presence overseas is important and the interagency aspect of that can be very valuable.
▶ 1:46:48Mr. Desombre: Some examples in thailand, we have the international law enforcement academy in thailand in law enforcement cooperation and different arms of thai law enforcement and regional law enforcement the train at the academy. There are ways to create -- appropriate law activities by police and enforcement agencies. On the economic front, from the deal team perspective I use the U.S.
▶ 1:47:18Mr. Desombre: Tda substantially, specifically on aerospace and defense and ways we can get studies done that can show the feasibility of different projects. The list goes on and on. There are a lot of things we can do together. That would be my role.
▶ 1:47:39Sen. Duckworth: Thank you. There is a sizable american population throughout the asian pacific region. American businesses trying to operate on a level playing field in the region. How do you quantify the value of an active presence across the region and economic value of business deals facilitated by our embassies? How do we make sure our professionals are given credit for the work they do that directly contributes to american prosperity?
▶ 1:48:08Mr. Desombre: Senator, that is a very good question. The safety and security of americans overseas is important in making sure they have access to services is critically important and something we need to ensure happens. Some countries are more densely populated and have more americans and others. It is something we need to look at from time to time.
▶ 1:48:34Mr. Desombre: I definitely believe that is important both in terms of the services for the american citizens and promoting commercial activities in the american businesses.
▶ 1:48:42Sen. Duckworth: Thank you. Touching on another issue related to our nation's prosperity, and economic issue that affects folks at home. The prevalence of the cyber scam centers targeting americans. A lot of them are originating throughout southeast asia. Can you talk about what authorities you can use to address this issue if confirmed and any actions we can take on a multilateral basis?
▶ 1:49:07Mr. Desombre: I am very much aware of the cyber scams. Burma, cambodia, where many of them occur. Over $10 billion has been lost to cyber scams by U.S. citizens. It is a critical issue and something we need to try to address. If confirmed it is something I will look into.
▶ 1:49:29Mr. Desombre: We clearly have ability to go after individuals violating laws and be able to do that, sometimes that may not have a great effect if they are in a country that I cannot do anything about them while they are there. In those countries, for example, greater cooperation in the law enforcement area so they can improve capacity to enforce their laws. In many circumstances there happening with or without the consent of the country.
▶ 1:49:59Mr. Desombre: Increasing capacity could be one way to address that.
▶ 1:50:01Sen. Duckworth: Thank you. The united states is a pacific nation. The ap is full of critical allies. I hope to is not reflected in engagement overseas. If you are confirmed I hope we can work together to make that happen through strong coordination. I hope you make yourself available to me and my office once you are confirmed.
▶ 1:50:24Mr. Desombre: Senator duckworth, thank you for that and I intend to cooperate with the committee on all matters and I agree that ap is a priority region. China is the pacing threat and we need to address that.
▶ 1:50:38Sen. Duckworth: Thank you. I yield back.
▶ 1:50:42Chair Risch: Thank you. >> congratulations on your nominations. Mr. pratt, let me start with you. The state department's civilian harm incidents response guidance is designed to track and reduce incidence of harm linked to U.S.
▶ 1:51:11Chair Risch: Arms transfers and proposed recommendations to prevent future harm. I have a simple yes or no question. Do you support the continued implementation?
▶ 1:51:22Mr. Pratt: Thank you for the question. I do pledge to support all applicable laws.
▶ 1:51:27Sen. Van Hollen: I'm asking you about this is specifically. If you could just let me know whether you support the continued implementation. This should not be hard.
▶ 1:51:39Mr. Pratt: I pledge to support all applicable law. Yes, sir.
▶ 1:51:49Sen. Van Hollen: I know about the trump policy from 2018. People have built on that. This is a separate question. If you do not want to answer directly, I guess the record will show that. Let me turn if I could to another question related to U.S. arms transfers.
▶ 1:52:10Sen. Van Hollen: In response to a question for the record, the dominate to be under secretary of state committed to abiding by the informal and formal congressional review process for arms sales and transfers. Will you make the same commitment he did?
▶ 1:52:30Mr. Pratt: Yes, I will make the same commitment and I look forward to working closely with the committee.
▶ 1:52:36Sen. Van Hollen: Excellent. Good. There are people who have ideas about changing it and I welcome all ideas but I hope we can all agree that has to be done for the statutory process and I take your answer as agreement. Mr. rayburn, when we met, I indicated I supported the lifting of sanctions on syria.
▶ 1:53:00Sen. Van Hollen: I also indicated that given the current syrian government's -- I thought it would be important to have snapback provisions to protect U.S. interests. The president announced he was going to lift sanctions during the trip, I know others have asked about this. My question to you is -- I understand you have committed to moving forward with the president's decision, is that right?
▶ 1:53:30Mr. Rayburn: Yes, I have. Absolutely.
▶ 1:53:34Sen. Van Hollen: I was very glad to see through steve witkoff's efforts, he secured the release of a hostage.
▶ 1:53:51Sen. Van Hollen: We need to immediately end a 24-daylong blockade by the netanyahu government that has prevented the flow of shipments of food, water, supplies to 2 million in gaza. A lot of the deals, the trillion dollar deals going down right now on the president's trip.
▶ 1:54:23Sen. Van Hollen: The talk about the plan that will be gifted to him. The president has not called for an end to the blockade. At least 55 children have now died as a result of malnutrition and related illnesses specifically connected to this blockade. Cindy mccain, who has been beating the world food program has said families in gaza are starving while the food they need is sitting at the borders.
▶ 1:54:56Sen. Van Hollen: My question to you, Mr. rayburn, is would you agree this is a violation of section 620 I of the foreign assistance act?
▶ 1:55:08Mr. Rayburn: Thank you for the question and I also enjoyed spending time with you discussing issues. The being outside the system, I do not have access or visibility to the U.S. government assessments of the situation on the ground. I cannot speak to the actual humanitarian assessment that would drive that decision-making or analysis.
▶ 1:55:38Mr. Rayburn: What I have seen as an outside observer, as others have, there is a desire on the U.S. part, on israel's part to think creatively about ways to try to restore --
▶ 1:55:53Sen. Van Hollen: I was just asking you a direct question about 620 I, the foreign assistance act. Let me see in closing, this seems to be a no-brainer when you look at the text of the U.S. law that says united states should not provide security assistance to any country indirectly or directly impeding the delivery of humanitarian assistance into a zone where U.S. weapons are being used. It is pretty straightforward.
▶ 1:56:25Sen. Van Hollen: A blockade obviously qualifies. With respect to this proposed new idea, we have seen the testimony of well respected organizations, unicef, among others that have said the new plan would be terrible when it comes to human rights and the negative, harmful impact on children. I hope as you discuss that and float that people recognize it is not a recipe for what we are dealing with right now.
▶ 1:56:55Chair Risch: Senator shaheen.
▶ 1:56:59Sen. Shaheen: I have a couple more questions. I want to go back to Mr. desombre. I thought your comments about law enforcement training for some of our partners in the indo pacific is an important point. I thought it a chance to visit the international law enforcement academy in budapest and was very impressed with the work they do.
▶ 1:57:25Sen. Shaheen: We are still trying to figure this out but it is my understanding the skinny budget the president sent over reduces that funding. Particularly with respect to thailand, which I know, given your experience, you would have an interest in. I would hope you would take a look at that and see how we can ensure those programs doing a good job are actually funded.
▶ 1:57:50Mr. Desombre: Thank you for that question. Obviously I'm not involved in the reorganization of the plan so I do not know what it is but I do agree law enforcement training can be a useful part of our foreign policy.
▶ 1:58:04Sen. Shaheen: We also had a hearing, one of our first of this committee this year, on the p.r.c. In china. We did not have any because it was so early in the administration, we did not have any witnesses from the trump administration but we did have outside experts. One thing to testify to was right now the p.r.c.
▶ 1:58:30Sen. Shaheen: In china are spending over $1 billion a year -- billion with a "b" -- on disinformation and misinformation efforts around the world, focused in the indo pacific.
▶ 1:58:46Sen. Shaheen: It is particularly concerning given that the administration is shutting down the industry for global media that provides radio free asia, voice of america, all of the programs that allow us to counter the chinese disinformation and misinformation going into the indo pacific. Can you tell me whether you would be willing to advocate for a counter to what the p.r.c.
▶ 1:59:16Sen. Shaheen: Is doing and how you envision that being done if we do not have any of the apparatus or infrastructure to do that?
▶ 1:59:24Mr. Desombre: Thank you very much for the question. I'm in complete agreement that insuring people receive the truth and are not subject to misinformation from the chinese is important. I'm not involved with the way things are being restructured but I'm confident the state department has other tools at its disposal to be able to ensure that we project american values and our views around the world.
▶ 1:59:50Sen. Shaheen: When you were ambassador to thailand the first time, what tools did you have that you used that were available to the state department, outside of some of those media efforts?
▶ 2:00:08Mr. Desombre: Senator, thank you for that question. We have public diplomacy efforts. Little bit that I understand about the organization, and power bureaus and missions to ensure our efforts are aligned with foreign policies. There are benefits to ensure their regional bureaus and the missions are taking over the effort. I will advocate to ensure we have sufficient resources in the bureau and the missions to do that.
▶ 2:00:33Sen. Shaheen: I would look forward to having you come back to share with us how you intend to do that without an infrastructure to get the message out to people. I think we are agreed on the goal. If you do not like the way the U.S. agency for global media is operating, let's find a replacement for it. To take it down and not have anything in its place seems to be very shortsighted.
▶ 2:01:03Sen. Shaheen: We are already seeing the advantages that gives the p.r.c. In the indo pacific.
▶ 2:01:06Chair Risch: Thank you. We have been at this for a while. I'm going to introduce for the record at the request of senator ricketts an article from may 14, wall street journal, republicans united athwart iran. I have to leave for a meeting. I will turn it over to senator cruz. I want to thank you for your willingness to serve. Did you have anything else?
▶ 2:01:36Chair Risch: Senator cruz, the floor is yours and if you would wrap it up for me. I would appreciate it. Thank you for being here.
▶ 2:01:44Sen. Cruz: Thank you. Mr. rayburn, you were involved in withdrawing from the catastrophic obama-iran nuclear deal during the first trump administration. After that withdrawal president trump at a maximum pressure campaign the brought the regime to the brink of collapse and cap their nuclear program in a box.
▶ 2:02:10Sen. Cruz: President biden functionally reimplemented the nuclear deal, providing all of the concession so iran could build out its nuclear program and rebuild its oil exports. I used to ask biden officials why they were not cracking down on iran. The answer they used to give was essentially there is nothing we can do. President trump and the current republican congress are committed to rebuilding the maximum pressure. Talk about what a maximum pressure campaign would look like and how you intend to pursue it.
▶ 2:02:39Mr. Rayburn: Thank you for the question and I appreciate you taking the time to assess this issue. It is not rocket science, senator. I had a chance to participate and see what works. You have to build out an enforcement apparatus. It is one thing to have the sanctions on the books. You have to have the people and the diplomatic engagement to actually enforce.
▶ 2:03:07Mr. Rayburn: You have to engage with your allies, disrupt the fleet, the vessels the iranians used to transport oil. You have to expose the financial dealings of the cannot benefit from money that moves with those transactions. You have to warn, maybe unwitting participants and those transactions. You have to expose the beneficial ownership of the vessels in the financial houses.
▶ 2:03:32Mr. Rayburn: You have to engage the insurance sector so they understand they are potentially insuring tankers on things like that. You have to engage with those who flagged the vessel so they understand what they are doing. When you do all those things you can make a real dent in their oil experts. You have to be -- oil exports. You have to make the regime an international pariah in terms of behavior.
▶ 2:04:04Mr. Rayburn: Do that with allies and a coalition of political and economic pressure. I have seen that work.
▶ 2:04:09Sen. Cruz: That was a thorough and comprehensive answer and is precisely the opposite of what the biden administration did for four years, which is why iran is on the verge of a nuclear breakout. As part of the maximum pressure campaign president trump is committed to ensuring iran is never allowed to enrich uranium. He has called for what has been described as a complete dismantlement.
▶ 2:04:36Sen. Cruz: Iran cannot be allowed to keep spinning centrifuges because under the biden administration they built out their program so much that any activity would allow them to cheat. We spoke about this earlier was senator ricketts but I want to circle back. Talk about president trump's redline of dismantlement and why it is so important.
▶ 2:04:58Mr. Rayburn: Thank you. It is because the iranians -- if nuclear power is the objective, they do not need to be able to enrich their own uranium. There are dozens of other countries in the world who have similar civil nuclear power programs that purchase the fuel from third parties. They do not reprocess the spent fuel so there is no reason for the iranians to do that.
▶ 2:05:30Mr. Rayburn: That is the president's position. There needs to be a dismantlement of their facilities. There are many technical ways for that to be accomplished. Secretary rubio has led that out. It is because of the iranians demonstrated bad faith. They do not operate in good faith when you strike an agreement.
▶ 2:05:51Sen. Cruz: I think that is absolutely right. I would note from my perspective, I see no reason the iranians should have nuclear power generation, either. There are literally swimming on a sea of oil. It is not like they are lacking for sources of energy. I feel confident the ayatollah is not laying awake at night worrying about climate change.
▶ 2:06:19Sen. Cruz: I'm not interested in anything radioactive around someone who leads chants of death to america and death to israel. For years I have raised concerns over the state department's deeply frustrating policy prohibiting taiwanese allies from displaying symbols on american soil. That was an obama era policy that came about at the behest of the chinese embassy.
▶ 2:06:51Sen. Cruz: I thought against that policy, pushed legislation reversing that policy, language that has been repeatedly advanced and received bipartisan support in this committee. It is explicit policy to reverse that policy. The trump administration changed it. The biden administration restore the prohibition.
▶ 2:07:15Sen. Cruz: Secretary of state rubio stated that he is committed to working with the committee to strengthen our unofficial ties with taiwan. I am putting you on the spot a little bit but describe the importance of bolstering our taiwanese allies.
▶ 2:07:31Mr. Desombre: Thank you for the question and thank you for making or staff available to meet with me. On a personal note, taiwan was the first foreign country I lived in after graduating from stanford and is a deep experience over the last 28 years. Our relationship with thailand -- our relationship with taiwan is important.
▶ 2:07:55Mr. Desombre: They are a great partner of ours and we should seek to strengthen that partnership and encourage your allies and partners to support taiwan.
▶ 2:08:02Sen. Cruz: I agree with that and I will encourage you and your colleagues to go back to the previous trump policy that allows the taiwanese to display symbols of sovereignty. The obama-biden caving to communist china policy is not one the trump administration should be following. I want to thank each of the witnesses for providing testimony.
▶ 2:08:28Sen. Cruz: Before closing I would like to ask unanimous consent to add any letters of support the committee has received to be added to the record. Without objection, so ordered. The record will remain open until close of business tomorrow, may 16, including for members to submit questions for the record. With the thanks of this committee, the hearing is now adjourned. [captioning performed by the national captioning institute, which is responsible for its caption content and accuracy. Visit ncicap.org]