▶ 0:18:08>> the committee will come to order. Today we will hear from congressman billy long nominated to serve as commissioner of the internal revenue service. Congressman long, congratulations on your nomination and thank you for your willingness to serve in government again. The irs is responsible for helping american taxpayers understand and meet responsibilities and to enforce the law with integrity and fairness to all.
▶ 0:18:41The commissioner's job is to oversee tax administration for the federal government, enforce tax laws and ensure compliance when balancing taxpayer service, fairness, efficiency. In recent years these needs have not been sufficiently balance. The irs has suffered from many problems and missteps. Perhaps that's why america is consistently rated as one of the least favorable federal agencies.
▶ 0:19:12Notwithstanding the fact that nearly all americans must interact. We hear time and again about irs efforts to improve taxpayer services, boost employee morale, and modernize outdated system. The last administration dedicated billions of dollars of extra funding to this end. Actual improvement at the irs ran short.
▶ 0:19:38This is in no small part due to the outsized emphasis on decreased funding for enforcement which dwarfed I.t. Modernization and customer service improvements. The irs diverted resources and attention to duplicative and unnecessary side projects such as when the irs circumvented congress to create the unauthorized program. The trump administration is rightly calling for a re-examination of this program.
▶ 0:20:12While critics argue fiscal prudence at the irs harm tax collection, the opposite has ruben to be true. Concerns that tax receipts would be down this year, individual income tax and payroll tax receipt are 120 billion dollars higher this year than last year. Statistically aligned with projections made by the budget office in january, 2025.
▶ 0:20:43They did not require tens of billions of dollars in additional funding. Modernization could also enable the irs to become more efficient, reducing its annual funding needs. With the irs on a healthier spending path and reviewed focus towards efficiently serving tax bears, it is now time for the next irs commissioner to prioritize taxpayers.
▶ 0:21:12My conversations with congressman long insured me that once can armed, he will focus on improving services and enforcing our tax laws with fairness for all and ensuring resources are optimally allocated. President trump called congressman long the consummate people person. Congressman long is very clear that he will make himself available to all irs employees no matter their send yorty.
▶ 0:21:42He wants to implement a top-down culture change at the agent the. This change will benefit american tax layers who too often view the irs as a foe rather than friend. Congressman long nose from years of experience in the house that to be a successful commissioner you must be a valuable partner in congress effort to ensure new tax legislation is implemented and administered as congress intends it to be.
▶ 0:22:14I'm also confident he will be fully transparent and responsive to congress and the american people. Before concluding, I would be remiss if I didn't inc. -- thank Mr. -- to the previous commissioner. We want him to return to the job he was previously hired to do. American taxpayers want a change at the helm of the irs. A change agent at the helm of the irs.
▶ 0:22:45Congressman billy long fits this description and is well-suited to lead the irs. Thank you for your willingness to return to government. I look forward to working with you with confirmed.
▶ 0:22:59Sen. Wyden: . Along with senator bennet, I serve on the senate select committee on intelligence. As a result of this position, I have access to a tremendous array of secrets, enormous challenges for the country, I have been able to excavate the news that today is senator crapo's birthday.
▶ 0:23:29Sen. Wyden: We are going to have a spirited hearing.
▶ 0:23:33Chair Crapo: Thank you very much.
▶ 0:23:38Sen. Wyden: We salute our colleague as we begin. It's clear donald trump sees the irs as a tool he could use to help himself, his friends, and hurt his enemies. To run the irs he is trusting billy long, one of his earliest supporters in congress. At this morning's hearing I assume we will hear a lot of sweet sounding prophecies about enhancing fairness and efficiency at the irs and working together to improve morale. Here is the problem.
▶ 0:24:11Sen. Wyden: Donald trump is only concerned about his own power. Congressman long is a maga d bodie who claims he coined the phrase trump train. There is no evidence that congressman long will be making a bold stand in front of the locomotive to protect the agency's independence. The nominees record on tax issues is thin.
▶ 0:24:44Sen. Wyden: There was a bill to abolish the irs and institute a nationwide sales tax. There were demands for investigations into the clinton foundation. Not much else. If you expand the enemies list, that is the bulk of the trump tax agenda in a nutshell. Much of what congressman long is experiencing came after he left congress when he dove into the tax scam industry.
▶ 0:25:17Sen. Wyden: Cashing in on the credibility of his election certificate raked in referral fees to firms that sold fake tax shelters and pushed small businesses to knowingly commit tax fraud. I will take these cases one at a time. Congressman long's financial disclosure showed $65,000 in income paid for a firm called white river energy. Financial advisors sold investors tax shelters known as tribal tax credit.
▶ 0:25:48Sen. Wyden: The thing is, no such tax credit exists. It was a fraud. Finance committee staff ask the irs about these credit. Here's what they told us. We could confirm these tax credits do not exist. Taxpayers who claim credits don't exist are subject to penalties and possible examination. Promoters may be subject to civil or criminal penalties.
▶ 0:26:20Sen. Wyden: That is the end of the quote. Committee investigators saw an explanation about his role in this scheme. He refused to answer. Investigator sent a long list of questions to white river, no reply. It looks to me like everybody went into some kind of witness protection program. That said, there is a follow the money angle here as well.
▶ 0:26:49Sen. Wyden: The sequence of events is particularly troubling. Donald trump announced the nomination on december 4. On december 19 bloomberg post an article about white river scheme called rich people by tribunal tax credits treasury say don't exist. White rivers's phone lines must have blown up.
▶ 0:27:10Sen. Wyden: The cfo held a call that same afternoon with 100 or more investigators rushing the legitimacy of tax credit statements. He didn't have a lot to offer in the way of assurances that the tribal tax credits were legitimate. He didn't tell them they would soon have friends at the irs who would take the heat off.
▶ 0:27:37Sen. Wyden: In mid-january, the folks down at white river decided it was time to without the checkbooks and start donating to the congressman's long dormant senate campaign and still had outstanding debt dating back 2.5 years. More than $165,000 poured in, the vast majority of it from tribal tax credit promoters including those out white river.
▶ 0:28:04Sen. Wyden: 100 $30,000 went directly into the congressman's pocket when he paid back his personal loans. This just looks corrupt. I have asked the irs to investigate. That is not the only tax scam the committee needs to address. Back in the darkest days of the pandemic, congress created a program called the employee retention tax credit. It was designed to help struggling small businesses stay afloat.
▶ 0:28:35Sen. Wyden: It made a lot of sense. It saved jobs when the unemployment rate was in the stratosphere. The problem arrived after the pandemic receded. That's what a bunch of scam artists twisted the program into a firehose of fraud. Promoters set up mills that told small businesses to claim the credit even when they knew they did not qualify. The mills took a cut of the benefit.
▶ 0:29:04Sen. Wyden: The congressman worked as a promoter. Lifetime advisors, consulting as one. He spoke publicly in recorded interviews about pushing small business client to file claims that their cpas told them they did not qualify. In one such appearance he stated that everybody qualifies and that colleagues is just untrue.
▶ 0:29:30Sen. Wyden: The nominee bragged about getting this tax credit for a funeral home despite the fact that the business was booming during the pandemic. Taxpayers have lost billions and billions of dollars to improper claims and outright fraud. In all likelihood some of that could have wound up in the congressman's pockets.
▶ 0:29:55Sen. Wyden: These mills that push clients into making improper claims have put these small business owners in serious legal jeopardy. That in my view is unforgivable. Somebody involved has no place working at the irs. Finally, finance committee investigators gave the congressman and the firm's he partnered with the opportunity to prove that everything they did was on the level.
▶ 0:30:26Sen. Wyden: They refused. Colleagues, I will just say, I wish the hearing could be about approving -- improving efficiency. That kind of discussion is out of touch given what I have just described this morning. Donald trump wants to use the irs to beat his adversaries into submission. He wants to feed it's a protected data to agents disappearing people off the streets.
▶ 0:30:55Sen. Wyden: His nominee to lead the agency is a trump loyalist through and through. Not somebody who is an independent tax professional. Our serious concerns that we have asked and a number of colleagues have done so about the involvement with fraudulent tax schemes have gone unanswered. Today the american people have the right to know whether their future irs commissioner is somebody who has been a crook.
▶ 0:31:25Sen. Wyden: I look forward to question and answers.
▶ 0:31:27Chair Crapo: Thank you. In a moment our colleague, senator blackburn will introduce congressman long before he proceeds with his opening statement. I have four obligatory questions that we ask all nominees for the committee. Is there anything you are aware that might present a conflict of interest with the duties of the office that you have been nominated?
▶ 0:31:51Mr. Long: No.
▶ 0:31:53Chair Crapo: You know of any reason that would prevent you from fully and honorably discharging the responsibilities of the office to which you have been nominated?
▶ 0:32:04Mr. Long: No.
▶ 0:32:06Chair Crapo: Do you agree without reservation to respond to any reasonable summons to appear and testify but for any duly constituted committee of congress if you are confirmed?
▶ 0:32:17Mr. Long: Yes.
▶ 0:32:18Chair Crapo: Do you commit to providing a prompt response to any question addressed to you by any senator of this committee?
▶ 0:32:26Mr. Long: Yes.
▶ 0:32:28Chair Crapo: Senator blackburn, we will turn to you for your introduction.
▶ 0:32:34Sen. Blackburn: Thank you for the opportunity to introduce my former house colleague, representative billy long. I grew to know him as a tireless advocate for the american people as we served in the house. We were both members of the energy and commerce committee.
▶ 0:32:58Sen. Blackburn: We repeatedly saw his infectious energy, his conviction to serve people and to be unshakable in that commitment. Today, I know he is going to bring that same energy, conviction, spirit to his nomination as commissioner of the irs.
▶ 0:33:23Sen. Blackburn: What you will do is bring a fresh and much-needed perspective to the irs before entering public service, he was a small business owner and a professional auctioneer. Careers that grounded him in the real world challenges that every day small business owners and millions of americans faced.
▶ 0:33:48Sen. Blackburn: These experiences combined with his time in congress give him a uniquely valuable length through which to view the irs. He understands the irs is not just a tax collector but also a public facing service agency that must be efficient, transparent, accountable. He is driven, relentless in his pursuit of result.
▶ 0:34:18Sen. Blackburn: He knows how to rally people around his cause. His vision is not just about fixing what is broken, it is about transforming the irs into an agency that works for the people, not against the people. He has always put taxpayers first. His approach is rooted in that really that the tax system should be fair, simple, transparent.
▶ 0:34:48Sen. Blackburn: He has been a staunch advocate for reform, improved communication and restore trust between the irs and the public that it serves. Representative long knows how to connect with people whether he is engaging with constituents or stakeholders.
▶ 0:35:11Sen. Blackburn: His personable nature in open communication style will make the irs more accessible and responsive to the american taxpayer. Perhaps what is most important is his drive for fundamental change. The irs is at a crossroads. We need a leader who doesn't just talk about modernization but could get the job done. He is that leader. He understands reform is just not about modernization.
▶ 0:35:43Sen. Blackburn: Also about improving the work culture and the trust the american people hold for the irs. His long list of accolades include the tax fighter award for natural tax legislation committee. The national auctioneers association hall of fame induction. The order of the rising sun just to name a few.
▶ 0:36:12Sen. Blackburn: The irs desperately needs a fresh start, reform, it needs a leadership, it needs someone who understands how to work with people and for the american people. Thank you Mr. chairman.
▶ 0:36:28Chair Crapo: Thank you senator blackburn. Congressman long, please proceed.
▶ 0:36:34Mr. Long: Thank you. Chairman crapo, ranking member wyden, members of the committee. I'm honored to be here as a member of the internal revenue service. I want to thank president trump for believing in me to lead this important agency. I am not the one big beautiful bill that he has spoken about. I might be one big beautiful billy.
▶ 0:37:02Mr. Long: I sit here today as the luckiest man in the world. I have the opportunity to make transformational change to an agency that needs it more than any other federal agency or I could go home to southwest missouri. As they say, they are not going to catch themselves.
▶ 0:37:27Mr. Long: I will be the first elected official in 60 years for the internal revenue service and the first to be 2.5 years out of congress. For too long, congress is making changes to the tax code in the irs spends month if not years trying to interpret what congress meant.
▶ 0:37:51Mr. Long: The irs could stay engaged as these changes are made so once they get to the irs we will have a comprehensive understanding of congress intent. You will find I'm an unusual congressman. Things come into my head, they pop up. Things I think could improve situations. I don't know any other commissioner that has made this proposal.
▶ 0:38:19Mr. Long: I have pledged to arrive 90 minutes before it is open every day to let everyone in the facility on my schedule for 10 minutes in the morning to tell me what is going on in their life, at the irs and how to improve things.
▶ 0:38:37Mr. Long: I think there's a lot of wasted brain cells in the building because no one has ever asked for their opinion on how to make things better, make it a better place for them, to work, and to serve the american public. My concerns will be my partners at the irs and the hard-working american taxpayers who deal with them. I don't want anyone to be intimidated by the other side.
▶ 0:39:05Mr. Long: In congress, ahead of many democrat -- I had as many democrat friends as I did republicans. I would encourage any of you to walk the halls of congress where I was for 12 years. This is over the last 12 years. Talk to the democrats over there and see how I served and what I am like.
▶ 0:39:36Mr. Long: What things we worked on together. You could talk to doris, debbie, brendan, anyone, they are on and on. My cochair of the congressional study group on japan, they let a bipartisan delegation for five years in a row. Very good friends with prime minister abe.
▶ 0:40:05Mr. Long: Diana and I would walk in a room, they would be hollering. If you are going to represent and see someday the allies we have, some of them will go it will hurt me politically. People think I'm traveling on their dime. I take joe kennedy and his wife to meet his aunt when they were ambassador to japan.
▶ 0:40:35Mr. Long: Diana would be a good one to ask . In this committee alone there are 27 people on the committee. 27 people. Nine I worked with in the house. Ray lujan, I went to his office. I wore the bolo tie jim mcdermott gave me. Jim and I were really good friends.
▶ 0:41:05Mr. Long: There is so much we could accomplish together. I want to have a good time today. I hope you all do. They will say I appreciate that question and whatever. Want to have an opportunity, if I tell you that, I mean it, I want to come to your office, sit down. I will be the most open. Up the, friendly, and open.
▶ 0:41:36Mr. Long: My staff in the house used to say other staff members would come up and say your boss just talk to me in the hall, I speak to everybody. I am a people person like the president said. I appreciate the president nominating me for this position. I want to make it a better place for the employees. Who's going to come in 90 minutes early every single day.
▶ 0:42:05Mr. Long: I talked with one guy at the treasury and he said when you are over there, take a picture of the commissioner's office, I want to see the layout. I like to have large conference table so we could bring people into talk. He said billy, I was there 15 years and I was never invited to the third floor. I want to change that. Ben franklin, he would put pluses and minuses.
▶ 0:42:37Mr. Long: You have to look at the pluses for me to take the position. The minuses are like 17 things long. I want this job because I care about people. There wasn't a week without went by that I didn't say you could call the irs on five days in a row with the same question and get six different answers. Nothing has changed about that. Charles told me he was nominated by clinton, he was a republican.
▶ 0:43:10Mr. Long: He had to get by a republican senate in those days. Charles if you go to chatgpt, they say charles was the best irs commissioner. I will do the same 90 minute trick every office throughout the country. I know I will get a lot of questions today, that is fine. She told our group nobody doesn't like billy long.
▶ 0:43:41Mr. Long: I want her to say that after the next two hours. There will be a lot of people. I yield back.
▶ 0:43:46Chair Crapo: I will start with the questions. I have a number of questions but I want to confirm a few basic fact. Because of time constraints I ask you to give me yes or no responses to the next few questions. Have you ever met or interacted with anyone who works at white river?
▶ 0:44:05Mr. Long: No sir.
▶ 0:44:06Chair Crapo: Was your role with respect to all of your tax advisory work solely limited to provide referrals to other professionals like those at lifetime advisors h strategies, commerce tariffs consulting?
▶ 0:44:22Mr. Long: Yes. Did you ever provide or attempt to provide tax advice?
▶ 0:44:27Mr. Long: No.
▶ 0:44:29Chair Crapo: When referring a potential client to others, did you always specify that they should have their own business, legal or accounting counsel involved in any discussions or negotiation?
▶ 0:44:42Mr. Long: Yes. With respect to clients you referred to n strategies, you relied on a description of credits provided to you by capital edge and at the time of referral you were not aware of any fact to indicate or suggest the credits did not exist, correct?
▶ 0:45:00Mr. Long: Yes.
▶ 0:45:03Chair Crapo: During your campaign you disclose that to the federal election commission?
▶ 0:45:08Mr. Long: Yes.
▶ 0:45:11Chair Crapo: The career office of government ethics staff prepared an ethics agreement with you to provide any and all potential conflicts of interest and you intend to completely abide by the terms of that letter, correct?
▶ 0:45:28Mr. Long: Yes.
▶ 0:45:29Chair Crapo: Thank you. The next question I have for you , you could go beyond yes or no if you would like. The mission statement of the irs changes -- charges its employees to provide america's taxpayers top quality service by helping them understand and meet tax responsibilities and enforce the law with integrity and fairness for all.
▶ 0:45:59Chair Crapo: American taxpayers expect that the irs will live up to its mission statement on administering tax law fairly and impartially. Regardless of one's political affiliation, which is something I could say unfortunately is not something all americans believe is true. Could you share your thoughts on how vital it is for the irs to uphold that standard of fairness and impartiality while administering the tax code and what would you do to uphold that standard?
▶ 0:46:28Mr. Long: Fairness is one of the main drivers of what needs to be done. Make sure we treat everyone fair regardless of income level for who they deal with. There is no room in my irs to do anything other than treat everyone fairly and follow the law. I will follow the law and do exactly what it calls for.
▶ 0:46:50Chair Crapo: Thank you. Given your service in congress, you are uniquely aware of how important it is to have open and regular communication between the branch agencies and their committees of jurisdiction. Given the significance of tax policy, it is critical that the irs is transparent with congress. Will you commit to provide prompt and thorough feedback to the members of the committee?
▶ 0:47:19Mr. Long: Yes.
▶ 0:47:20Chair Crapo: That concludes my questions.
▶ 0:47:24Sen. Wyden: Thank you very much. Let me just stipulate for purposes of this morning this witness is a very entertaining individual. That is not what is at issue this morning. What is at issue is the facts.
▶ 0:47:43Sen. Wyden: After leaving congress you made $65,000 referring your friends to tax promoters who claimed that they acquired income tax credits issued to a native american tribe and then sold these credits to investors. There is a problem, the irs said in march credits do not exist. They are fake. They are a scam.
▶ 0:48:09Sen. Wyden: You are asking to be put in charge of the irs and the irs confirms that these are not real. Do you believe these so-called tribal tax credits actually exist?
▶ 0:48:22Mr. Long: Thank you for the question. My only involvement in this matter like I said numerous times in the written correspondence was to connect interested friends of mine. Not robo call, not paying kids $25 per hour. If I had any interest I would say do you want to get on a zoom? I was never on the zoom.
▶ 0:48:51Sen. Wyden: That was not my question, do you believe those so-called tribal tax credits exist?
▶ 0:48:58Mr. Long: I can't answer yes or no because I do not know. I think the jury is still out on that. Since 2022 they have been accepting them. All of this will play out and I want to have it investigated.
▶ 0:49:20Sen. Wyden: I recruit -- released a recording of an investor call on the scheme last week. One person said they sold $20 million worth of credits. They have all been rejected by the irs, could you name a single tribe that you or any other promoter required these tribal tracks credits from?
▶ 0:49:45Mr. Long: I work through capital edge strategies. I don't know anybody at white river. I don't have any way to know who the tribe is even.
▶ 0:50:03Sen. Wyden: Most of your tax shelters really -- revolve around selling tax that you can't name. That's why I go to the question of pay to play. You made 65,000 dollars referring clients to promoters for what appears to be this fraudulent taught -- tribal tax credit.
▶ 0:50:27Sen. Wyden: The president announced your nomination, in a matter of weeks that same group of promoters contributed $165,000 to your old campaign even though you left office years ago. You transferred the money from the campaign to your pocket after you are nominated to be irs commissioner, who did you talk with to solicit those 160 $5,000 in donations?
▶ 0:50:56Mr. Long: You know as well as I do any time you are dealing with the ftc you have to follow guidelines. That's exactly what I did all the way through. You have to report these things and it comes out, if I thought something was wrong with it.
▶ 0:51:17Sen. Wyden: Money doesn't just fall out of the sky. Who did you talk to about the $165,000.
▶ 0:51:25Mr. Long: Everyone I talk to or dealt with or didn't talk to was ftc compliant.
▶ 0:51:33Sen. Wyden: Could you get a list of those you talk to?
▶ 0:51:34Mr. Long: I gave everything to the ftc.
▶ 0:51:42Sen. Wyden: You expect us to believe the money fell out of the sky and showed up in your campaign treasury? I find that a little bit implausible. Let's go on to the next one, promoting the employee retention tax credit. We talked about your experience selling tribal tax credits. Let's talk about your other tax experience. Since 2023 you have been paid as a referral agent with tax cut promoters.
▶ 0:52:10Sen. Wyden: You stated on a youtube video that everybody qualifies for the employee retention tax credit. You urge listeners to ignore cpas that said they didn't qualify. Do you really think everybody qualifies?
▶ 0:52:23Mr. Long: If you listen to that video, I didn't say everyone qualifies I said virtually everyone qualifies. Meaning most people, virtually is in their honest intent.
▶ 0:52:40Sen. Wyden: Overwhelmingly everybody qualifies. I think this is wrong. That is what I'm troubled by.
▶ 0:52:45Mr. Long: You voted for it, I voted for it.
▶ 0:52:51Sen. Wyden: I voted for it during the heart of the covid period trying to take employers and employees and get them some help. This problem took place after covid receded. That's why we are so troubled by the front.
▶ 0:53:08Sen. Bennet: Thank you for being here. Are you -- you will be the most important tax person in this administration. I was curious about whether you were aware that yesterday the 30 year bond touched 5% interest rate?
▶ 0:53:30Mr. Long: Yes.
▶ 0:53:32Sen. Bennet: Why do you think that was?
▶ 0:53:38Mr. Long: I didn't follow it but I heard about it.
▶ 0:53:42Sen. Bennet: Do you think it had to do with the fact that moody's stripped the united states of our aaa rating?
▶ 0:53:50Mr. Long: I'm not aware.
▶ 0:53:54Sen. Bennet: Are you worried that moody's stripped the united states. Are you aware of it or are you worried about it?
▶ 0:54:06Mr. Long: When I got into congress in 2011 our national debt was $11 trillion. I think the spending has a lot to do with what people are very concerned about.
▶ 0:54:20Sen. Bennet: I would agree with that. One out of seven dollars that we spend is now on interest. Would you agree that this is true? We are spending more now as a country on interest than we are on defense. That is before yesterday's cell america trade as it was called that lifted bond rates to 5%. Would you agree?
▶ 0:54:52Sen. Bennet: You just mention how much it has increased. It is at $29 trillion today. How much more is that then when donald enacted his tax cuts in 2017?
▶ 0:55:02Mr. Long: 2017, I don't have any recollection.
▶ 0:55:07Sen. Bennet: Would you be surprised to know it is twice as much as when he enacted his tax cuts? It is now twice as much as it was, three times when you joined the congress to begin with.
▶ 0:55:20Mr. Long: I don't have any independent recollection, I'm sure if you have the figures I will go with your judgment.
▶ 0:55:28Sen. Bennet: Tillis and for the reasons we are talking about, our interest expense only goes up and up. Would you agree that this makes our deficit even worse than it already is?
▶ 0:55:44Sen. Bennet: The interest rates that we have to pay because this country is being downgraded because of the fiscal irresponsibility you set of congress, I would say that administration that is adding $3 trillion to our debt when we are not in a recession because among other things they want to give tax cuts to the wealthiest people in america. What you say to people? Is that fair to pull in missouri?
▶ 0:56:13Mr. Long: I thought all the spending for the 12 years I was here ended fell on deaf ears. You don't want to cut behind the tree. Whether you are conservative or liberal and they say they want to do something about waste fraud or spending.
▶ 0:56:33Sen. Bennet: You are the most important tax person in america if you get this job. You have our view of this deficit. What would you say to an administration now adding $3 trillion of debt and our credit rating is now lost its third, the last aaa rating the united states of america had.
▶ 0:57:05Sen. Bennet: We have lost our aaa rating and we will still spend like drunken sailors on your watch. What do you say to people at home about that?
▶ 0:57:16Mr. Long: I will say the same thing I said for 12 years, we have to get it under control.
▶ 0:57:26Sen. Bennet: Is there any evidence? You understand math. You are a smart person. They haven't passed the bill in the house that will add another $3 trillion on top of the $30 trillion already here. Why is it your message to them don't do it? Don't add any more debt to the people in missouri?
▶ 0:57:51Mr. Long: We need to start paying down our debt. I have said that for 12 years. You are here.
▶ 0:58:02Sen. Bennet: What will you say to the american people when you leave this administration and the debt is worse today when you are leaving then it is today?
▶ 0:58:11Mr. Long: We will have a lot of conversations with a lot of folks with you and other people from the white house and try to work in the same direction.
▶ 0:58:22Sen. Bennet: Let me just say I want the market to reflect that we are having this conversation three days after we lost a aaa rating of the debt of the united states and the day after the 30 year bond touched 5% as a result of the fiscal irresponsibility of this administration. Thank you.
▶ 0:58:52Sen. Cortez Masto: Thank you. Congressman long, a series of public reports last year unveiled a scheme to sell tribal tax credits to investors. These credits are entirely fake.
▶ 0:59:11Sen. Cortez Masto: This committee received confirmation from the current irs that confirmed that these tax credits not only do not exist, taxpayers that claim credits are subject to penalties and furthermore promoters of these credits may be subject to civil or criminal penalties. The irs goes on to say we remind all taxpayers to be aware of tax scams and consult with their reputable tax advisor.
▶ 0:59:40Sen. Cortez Masto: In their follow-up to the public financial disclosure report that you provided to the committee, you identified the work that you have done. You received $65,000 from capital edge strategies. That 65,000 was related to referrals to tax credits sold by white river.
▶ 1:00:09Sen. Cortez Masto: In response to that question, all my work with capital edge was related to tribal tax credit , is that correct?
▶ 1:00:21Mr. Long: Yes.
▶ 1:00:23Sen. Cortez Masto: Moving forward, as the commissioner of the irs knowing that is illegal because it is a scam, how do you sit here now and say you have no conflict of interest.
▶ 1:00:36Mr. Long: I have no involvement other than recommending to get their cpa, cfo if they were interested. If they were not that was fine. The professionals are the ones that looked at it to see the ramifications.
▶ 1:00:53Sen. Cortez Masto: You said it was related to tribal tax credits and it is clear this is a scam, they do not exist. You said in response to the question how many referrals did you work on for capital edge and white river? You responded less than 10 and acquaintances. You did refer tot -- tribal tax credits, correct?
▶ 1:01:18Mr. Long: I referred them to capital edge strategies.
▶ 1:01:23Sen. Cortez Masto: Knowing they are illegal, how do you stand here before this committee and tell the chairman just a few minutes ago that you have no conflict of interest?
▶ 1:01:33Mr. Long: The office of government ethics, career professionals that have been assigned controls all of that. I did not have any perception whatsoever that these did not exist. I said -- they said the irs said they don't exist. I said who said that? We can't tell you.
▶ 1:02:04Mr. Long: This needs to be investigated.
▶ 1:02:09Sen. Cortez Masto: Let me jump back to this. This committee actually sent a letter to the acting commissioner of the irs to investigate this. Are you aware of that letter?
▶ 1:02:20Mr. Long: I know there are several letters to several people.
▶ 1:02:25Sen. Cortez Masto: We will submit it again for the record. We have asked the irs to investigate these tribal tax credit and the scam and the companies allegedly involved were white rock -- white river energy corporation. Isn't that correct?
▶ 1:02:44Mr. Long: No. I did not receive compensation from white river. All my work was through capital edge. I said several times I never met anyone at white river, I didn't know anyone. I simply referred to capital edge where the credits came from.
▶ 1:03:05Sen. Cortez Masto: You disclose 65,000 dollars from capital edge strategies. The source of the income was white river energy corporation, correct?
▶ 1:03:17Mr. Long: That was what oge wanted to know. My understanding was --
▶ 1:03:27Sen. Cortez Masto: I could only go with the information and fact that you give me. If you don't think it's a conflict that you pedaled in the scam as the irs commissioner, how could you sit here today and say there's no conflict knowing now that there is an investigation underway with the irs asking them to look at this scam and it may involve a company that you are affiliated with. How would you handle that?
▶ 1:03:53Mr. Long: I cannot have anything to do with any company or any people that I dealt with because oge form. I'm not pushing back on investigating.
▶ 1:04:07Sen. Cortez Masto: I'm asking now. You are nominated as the irs commissioner. You know there's an investigation underway, how would you handle that as irs commissioner?
▶ 1:04:20Mr. Long: I would do whatever is legal and lawful, check with the legal staff and explain the situation to them and say I worked for capital edge strategies. They apparently had an arrangement with black river. It was strange they wanted information different than any other thing.
▶ 1:04:43Sen. Cortez Masto: My time is up and I appreciate the indulgence of the chairman. I will submit the rest of my questions for the record. My concern is the fact that this company also contributed to one of your senate creating paths. After you are nominated to the irs, that is concerning.
▶ 1:05:07Sen. Cortez Masto: A company pedaled in fraud knows that there is potential investigation is now providing you money knowing that you are being nominated to the irs. I will submit my questions. Thank you.
▶ 1:05:20Sen. Blackburn: We appreciate your being here today. One of the things that has been so frustrating to tennesseans is when they call the irs they can get answers, they get different answers. The culture there has been people don't even show up to work. They are working remote. You spoke a little bit in your opening statement about culture.
▶ 1:05:50Sen. Blackburn: If you would talk about ending remote work and putting people back in the office and what you are going to do to make certain there is an explicit answer for our taxpayers?
▶ 1:06:03Mr. Long: Thank you for the question. A lot of people think I am still in congress. I get a lot of messages about issues. I got a message in the last five days from a gentleman said he has been on hold for 2.5 hours. It's about the first quarter trying to get answers. After 2.5 hours someone picked up the phone.
▶ 1:06:33Mr. Long: I had to get some paperwork and look up my w-2. After 12 minutes the person on the phone said I don't have time to wait for you. This was after he waited 2.5 hours. You call american express, american airlines, they say would you like to be put in a queue, we will call you back in approximately 28 minutes.
▶ 1:07:00Mr. Long: I think the irs needs to run more like a business, over to bucks county pennsylvania. We never made it. We were trying to look at the limestone underground for everybody's papers. There is a call center in bucks county I believe. We were allowed to set -- sit and listen with a headset to the folks.
▶ 1:07:29Mr. Long: These are all former government employees. Him at his sister were trying to figure out what needed to happen or whatever. The lady on the phone that I was sitting by was so nice, so polite. I had some other people with me.
▶ 1:07:50Mr. Long: I have found in my time that treasury, opm, everywhere I have been, the attitude of these federal employees is, I think they are taking a ufo class. They all speak to you. They don't know me from anybody. We have very good people working. They need better systems, better equipment.
▶ 1:08:20Sen. Blackburn: They need that guidance and leadership for that change of culture. We've had lots of complaints about the direct file program. It is something put in place without explicit congressional approval. What I would like to know is what you would do with that direct file program. There are a lot of us that think should be shut down.
▶ 1:08:50Sen. Blackburn: There are plenty of free programs out there that people could file their tax. So many people feel like this is overly intrusive into their personal information to use direct file.
▶ 1:09:05Mr. Long: It's probably one of the hottest topics at the irs. I plan to -- I have never been in the building. When we start having these meetings, this is one of the first things I will start looking at. I want to say something about this tax season that has concluded. People said are you worried about the tax filing?
▶ 1:09:37Mr. Long: Everything is running smoothly. I want to congratulate everyone that was there in pulling off a very successful tax season. I know they used it last year and this year. The next tax season is right around the corner. It will get here before you know it. I know there is people on both sides that have different opinions.
▶ 1:10:01Mr. Long: I want to get to the bottom of it and see what is best for the hard-working employee partners with the irs if I am confirmed. What is best for those two groups, I want to develop a culture that the irs is not top-down. Through these meetings I want the people there to tell me what is going on in their life.
▶ 1:10:25Sen. Blackburn: My time has expired. Thank you.
▶ 1:10:30Sen. Cassidy: Hey Mr. long, how are you? One thing I have been concerned about which is really benefiting my state, it has benefited st. Louis. The historic preservation program.
▶ 1:10:58Sen. Cassidy: You take an old building and you get a tax credit to do so and you preserve a structure which I was once told is historic, iconic for the neighborhood to upgrade. I saw an old post office. Specifically interested in how the irs will treat this. Particularly the property owners that protect these historic buildings.
▶ 1:11:28Sen. Cassidy: On multiple occasions, the irs office of chief counsel has described their strategy as relates to historic preservation as guidance by litigation. Ideally they will do it upfront so the building owner could be confident that claims under an authorized program is honored by honoring us.
▶ 1:12:00Sen. Cassidy: Congress has repeatedly affirmed this program. Ronald reagan has a great quote about this. Do you agree the irs should reallocate enforcement resources towards front and guidance and end of the guidance with campaigns which has been used against these easements?
▶ 1:12:21Mr. Long: Yes. Earlier I mentioned one of the things, I mentioned I served with nine of you in congress including yourself on this one committee. Being someone that just left congress, I want my people to have access to the finance committee, ways and means how to carry them out.
▶ 1:12:51Mr. Long: We don't have to guess before they decide how to do it.
▶ 1:12:57Sen. Cassidy: Going specifically to historic tax credits, they have been historic, iconic and catalytic. Under the previous administration, commissioner were full requested additional national or statewide extension during the covid pandemic a lot of stuff got shut down. There is a time limit as to whether this could be executed.
▶ 1:13:29Sen. Cassidy: Covid shut things down. Their response was an extension has been granted for some projects earlier in the pandemic , no relief could be provided. It addressed additional disasters which significantly impacted that. I guess what I'm saying is just because there was a pandemic does not mean if a hurricane hits there's not another circumstance in which relief again would be required.
▶ 1:14:03Sen. Cassidy: Not because I couldn't make my note. You blew up and all of the workers have been moved to another place. I'm asking if you would do anything to revisit this?
▶ 1:14:16Mr. Long: Anything what I'm sorry?
▶ 1:14:21Sen. Cassidy: Anything with the covid eraso, therefore you neven clarified -- certified.
▶ 1:14:28Mr. Long: We had several pictures in my office where you walk in where the receptionist said -- all pictures of presidents and whatever. The thing that got the most attention was a little brown sign like this in white letters that said bring back common sense. What you are talking about is common sense. Yes, I agree.
▶ 1:14:56Mr. Long: I think that we all need to work together and figure out common sense.
▶ 1:15:00Sen. Cassidy: I like that answer. Let me get in one more question real quick. Going back to the reagan era once more, headline after headline said that the irs missed their deadlines for I.t. Upgrades. Yet under the federal government, there is a off-the-shelf modernization effort that you can, if there is something in the private sector that meets your need, you can employ that.
▶ 1:15:25Sen. Cassidy: It seems as if most federal agencies want to write their own , do their own coding, as opposed to going out to somebody and saying will you do it for us using what you've already done. So, your approach to how you would upgrade the I.t., which is woefully in need of upgrading?
▶ 1:15:45Mr. Long: I think that we have to go. There are a lot of big companies that deal with more people than the irs does. They seem to be able to pull these things off seamlessly with all of this I.t. In sales they say that success leads clues and failure does, too.
▶ 1:16:06Mr. Long: We need to take the clues from the private sector and if we can get things -- I had one million people saying I not doing anything with irs, I can't talk to you, call me back after confirmation if I am fortunate enough. I think that we need to look thank you.
▶ 1:16:31Chair Crapo: Senator hassan?
▶ 1:16:36Senator Hassan: On the issue of I.t. Modernization, the irs has a long-term I.t. Modernization plan with congressional funding available to help push it forward. I hope that you will look at that plan, I think it needs to be implemented more rapidly than it is. But there is a plan in place and I want to make you aware of that . Mr.
▶ 1:16:59Senator Hassan: Long, if directed by the president to take an action that would violate the law, would you follow the presidential direction or the law?
▶ 1:17:08Mr. Long: Follow the law.
▶ 1:17:09Sen. Hassan: Thank you for being clear on that. I want to understand how you would use taxpayers to benefit the irs. My constituents continue to face many unacceptable issues. Refunds, if confirmed, how will you speed up the delivery of tax refunds?
▶ 1:17:35Mr. Long: In my opening I mentioned, and I think I saw in your office, and thank you for those of you who took time to meet with me in your office. I think that we have to listen to the people in these regional offices, charles verse eddie, who I want to pattern myself after, was big on getting out to these offices.
▶ 1:18:00Mr. Long: Every time I'm in D.C., every day I'm in D.C., I will be there 90 minutes early to listen to the people to decide how we can really -- the only people, I don't care, billy long is not in this equation. What I care about is the taxpayer partners I would have if confirmed at the irs and the taxpayers. I mentioned, I don't want either one of those to be afraid of the other one to come in to, Sen.
▶ 1:18:26Hassan: To work with.
▶ 1:18:27Sen. Hassan: I understand that, but look, I ask you a specific question about how you will speed up the do -- delivery of tax funds in there were not specifics in your answer. The people of the granite state have struggled with delays in receiving refunds in the administration has cut the number of employees at the taxpayer advocate service to help taxpayers struggling with the irs. This has significantly increased wait times for tax assistance.
▶ 1:18:55Sen. Hassan: Since the administration has come in, since the administration has cut the number of critical employees who help taxpayers to navigate the irs, in new hampshire the wait times are worse. So, if you are confirmed, will you be reversing the cuts to the new hampshire office of the taxpayer advocate service that have increased wait times for the people of the granite state who need assistance?
▶ 1:19:18Mr. Long: I am loyal to a fault. I will be loyal to our taxpayer partners, employee partners and taxpayer. If it's within my power, I'm going to advocate for those people, like if it was my family.
▶ 1:19:33Sen. Hassan: But some of these people have already been cut, they been let go. The customer service of the irs in new hampshire is worse today than it was several months ago.
▶ 1:19:43Mr. Long: I don't think having worst customer service is acceptable.
▶ 1:19:48Sen. Hassan: It's not and it takes people to provide it. Especially nuance customer service. We spent a lot of time in my office with constituent service units and we spend a lot of time on a variety of issues. I can tell you that we are getting more and more calls from taxpayers who cannot get an answer from the irs, cannot get someone on the phone. And they are seeing significant delays in getting their refunds.
▶ 1:20:16Sen. Hassan: I want to turn to another question. Following up on my colleague questions relating to how this year you used new funds donated to your defunct senate campaign to repay yourself or a personal loan.
▶ 1:20:29Sen. Hassan: Around the time of your nomination to this position, you took in $165,000 in donations to your 2022 campaign fund and used the funds to pay yourself $130,000 to retire the remaining balance of a loan that you made to your campaign. Meanwhile, you had only received $36,000 in donations in the prior two years.
▶ 1:20:57Sen. Hassan: These donations that benefited your personal finances seemed to have been motivated by your nomination to lead the internal revenue service. Did you at any time make your donors aware of the plans to use those donations or have any knowledge that you are aware that you be using it to repay personal loans?
▶ 1:21:17Mr. Long: You know exactly how campaign debt is handled. Everything I did was compliant.
▶ 1:21:23Sen. Hassan: That is not what I'm asking you. This is a real question about whether people may donations to your personal financial benefit after you became the nominee because they were hoping they would have more influence with you as the leader of the irs, and that is what is at issue here going to the questions that senator cortez masto was asking in the other ranking members as well.
▶ 1:21:46Mr. Long: Everything that I signed with oge and the career employees over there dictates whether I can have anything to do with anyone like that.
▶ 1:21:57Sen. Hassan: I appreciate that, but I wish I was getting a more direct answer and I hope you will restore those positions in new hampshire.
▶ 1:22:05Chair Crapo: Senator grassley?
▶ 1:22:08Senator Grassley: Hope you don't take too long to answer my first question, my second question is the big one on my mind. We always hear from the previous administration and emphasis on enforcement, I agree that enforcement of tax laws is necessary, in my view the emphasis should be on improving customer service to put the taxpayer first, because giving good information is one way of helping the taxpayers to abide
▶ 1:22:38Senator Grassley: By the law. Most taxpayers want to do that and would gladly do so if they could get their phone calls answered and their questions addressed. If confirmed, what is the balance you hope to strike between enforcement and customer service? By the way, I want to --
▶ 1:23:08Sen. Grassley: You didn't hear my question?
▶ 1:23:11Mr. Long: [inaudible] >> the last part.
▶ 1:23:16Sen. Grassley: If confirmed, what is the balance you hope to strike between enforcement and consumer customer service. I'm sorry I didn't have my mic on.
▶ 1:23:26Mr. Long: [inaudible] everything that we do has to be fair to both sides and we have to handle the taxpayers, whether they are paying in or if it is a compliance issue in exactly the same manner, according to the code, what the law dictates that we do.
▶ 1:23:53Sen. Grassley: A program that I have championed going back to the early to thousands, the irs whistleblower program, incentivizing those who have knowledge of high dollar tax evasion to work the irs, dealing mostly with corporations. To date this program has brought in $6 billion to the treasury and could raise billions more if used by the irs to its fullest extent.
▶ 1:24:22Sen. Grassley: Should you be confirmed, can I count on you to be supportive of the whistleblower program and work to ensure that its use to full potential? Let me explain some of the problem. We have got people that sometimes don't get any work from the irs for years -- any word on what's being done on what they suggest tax money wasn't being paid by a particular corporation.
▶ 1:24:50Sen. Grassley: It seems to me that if you are interested in enforcement, these whistleblowers bring you information that the irs would never have and you ought to follow up on it and collect the money. But we seem to get inaction in some cases from the irs.
▶ 1:25:10Mr. Long: I don't think there's a lot of daylight between us on that issue. You were one of the first senators that allowed me to come into your office and visit in we had a robust discussion on whistleblowers. I'm right there with you, senator.
▶ 1:25:25Sen. Grassley: Thank you, that is good to hear. In recent years there have been more instances of taxpayer information being improperly disposed or leaked from the irs, the most prominent example involving an irs contractor releasing thousands of individual tax returns to a liberal publication, pro-public. I guess he's in prison now?
▶ 1:25:50Sen. Grassley: In your view, how important is it for the irs to maintain the confidentiality of private taxpayer information?
▶ 1:25:59Mr. Long: I think it's the utmost. I don't know if it's my place, I'm not in congress, I'm sure it's not my place. There were penalties involved, whether or not they should be strengthened, but for some of these cases they have leaked people with personal information . Why? Who knows.
▶ 1:26:25Mr. Long: But there should be a stringent penalty with long-term sentences , long as you could possibly get, I would think. But the law is the law and if they get the maximum, it's not very much if that's what you are dealing with.
▶ 1:26:39Sen. Grassley: You mentioned, you mentioned in your written testimony technology that the irs has that is danger leaked -- dangerously out of date and needs to be modernized. Updating that technology has been a priority for every commissioner for decades. Unfortunately, such efforts have been plagued by costs overruns and under delivered in terms of performance.
▶ 1:27:08Sen. Grassley: What steps can you take his commissioner to make sure that this history doesn't repeat itself and we don't waste a lot of taxpayer money trying to upgrade everything?
▶ 1:27:16Mr. Long: I think I mentioned it earlier that we need to use a lot of things that other businesses are using to do things more effectively than the irs.
▶ 1:27:26Sen. Grassley: Thank you very much.
▶ 1:27:28Chair Crapo: Senator young?
▶ 1:27:32Senator Young: Good to see you, congressman. In our capacity as members of congress. I know that you will bring the same seriousness of purpose and professionalism to this post that you did in serving the people of the missouri seventh congressional district.
▶ 1:27:56Senator Young: I would like to focus on part of your written testimony, highlighting your commitment to implementing a plan aimed at enhancing the service of the irs provision. It is widely recognized that the irs has long-standing challenges with outmoded technology, limited I.t. Modernization, and are generally behind the curve.
▶ 1:28:21Senator Young: You have spoken to this compared to many other federal agencies and certainly other private enterprises in this 21st tech heavy century. As the tax administration grows increasingly complex and digital transformation continues, you and I I would expect would agree that the irs needs to keep up.
▶ 1:28:45Senator Young: This committee has been working on a bipartisan tax administration package including several commonsense reforms to the irs tax filing process. My constituents, america's taxpayers, cannot wait. I mean, it's out of hand.
▶ 1:29:04Senator Young: The irs is several years behind in reviewing the tax returns, frequent beginning things right, offering improper advice to some. One of mine was a barcode efficiency act, trying to make sure that the irs, like so many other entities around the country, can, can scan paper, scan tax returns in this case.
▶ 1:29:32Senator Young: This will facilitate more filing on paper so that the irs can easily convert that information into digital formats and harmonize and streamline the customer experience. Listen, we in congress have not passed a broader irs reform package since the taxpayer first act of 2019 and I hope that changes. I think it will. You have an opportunity, as I see it, Mr. long.
▶ 1:30:03Senator Young: We have not had an irs commissioner put pen to paper on a modernization plan in over six years. With that in mind, if confirmed, will you commit to developing a comprehensive irs modernization plan that prioritizes customer service, identifies critical technology infrastructure needs, and ensures greater transparency and audit practices, yes or no?
▶ 1:30:30Mr. Long: Yes.
▶ 1:30:31Sen. Young: Excellent. You will commit it to paper so that we can all review it, debate it?
▶ 1:30:39Mr. Long: Yes, sir.
▶ 1:30:41Sen. Young: And hold you accountable?
▶ 1:30:43Mr. Long: Yes, I want to be held accountable on all of this.
▶ 1:30:46Sen. Young: Exactly what I wanted to hear. I look forward to working with you on that. I know other members of the committee will as well. Now, while modernization goes a long way towards improving irs efficiency and reducing error rates, it's not going to be enough. We still require human interaction with people from time to time to deal with more nuanced issues that we encounter.
▶ 1:31:12Sen. Young: Sometimes it's just nice to talk with a human being rather than go to the drop-down menu of the drop-down menu of the wrong website and this and that. There are limitations even to today's technology. As you know from your time in congress, we have casework teams that do their best to help people navigate the puzzle palace that is our federal government. They do a really good job in my office.
▶ 1:31:36Sen. Young: If confirmed, do you commit to working with my office and every other congressional office to make sure that constituent tax related matters are addressed and resolved in a timely manner, yes or no?
▶ 1:31:47Mr. Long: Yes.
▶ 1:31:48Sen. Young: The taxpayer advocate service has been emphasized, but some of my colleagues, for the key role that it plays, I would agree in ensuring taxpayers receive fair treatment from the irs. Taxpayer advocate case advocates are often those who engage the most with my office to help us help constituents. They provide invaluable service on behalf of hoosiers across the state.
▶ 1:32:16Sen. Young: How do you envision the relationship between the irs and taxpayer advocate service under your leadership and how, if at all, could this relationship as you step into this role be improved to strengthen the important mission of the taxpayer advocate service?
▶ 1:32:32Mr. Long: I have not spoken to the taxpayer advocate, but through, like I mentioned earlier, a lot of people think I'm still in congress. I constantly get -- they finally sent me a picture of that brother, his leg, trouble at the ba, he lost it in afghanistan, having fits. I put them in contact with the right people.
▶ 1:32:56Mr. Long: Anything taxes I say I'm not involved, not the irs, but here, chatgpt indiana taxpayer assistance service, they are in every state and usually there's more than one of -- depending on their population. I have had good reports back from people who say thank you, thank you. I'm going to do everything I can to make sure that that is a very efficient, effective way for taxpayers to get served at. Like I said, I'm not important today.
▶ 1:33:25Mr. Long: What's important is I want to help my employee partners. I want people to say I want to go to work at the irs, I hear that billy long runs a good shop , gets in 90 minutes every day, lets people talk to them. Built a great culture within. I don't want them to be intimidated. A lot of times they, the taxpayers are very intimidated.
▶ 1:33:51Mr. Long: They get a certified letter on their best from the irs, sometimes with correct information, sometimes it's not. The taxpayer advocate, to me, I didn't know where else to turn them, but that's what I've been doing. The results, but people have told me, they are pretty happy with it.
▶ 1:34:07Sen. Young: Thank you, sir. Chairman?
▶ 1:34:10Chair Crapo: Senator lankford?
▶ 1:34:13Senator Lankford: Good to see you. I've had the privilege of knowing you for a long time when we served together in the house. Some folks here are just getting to know you, I have seen you and your work ethic and I know how hard you work on things. I've had the opportunity to see you first hand. I'm glad to see you stepping up on this. There is a sense that you get when you get a letter from the irs that comes to your house.
▶ 1:34:40Senator Lankford: There's also a sense that you get when the president says I want you to be commissioner. It's a very, very difficult task to be commissioner of the irs. To be able to manage this. No one likes paying taxes or doing all the math, paying a cpa, all of those details. Making sure that the law is strictly enforced and being carried out and managed in the most efficient way possible, it's absolutely essential for our nation.
▶ 1:35:10Senator Lankford: The death and taxes thing is still true, no matter where you are. Those things are certain, we do have to pay our government and we do have to do good collection and do it the right way. I appreciate you stepping into do that.
▶ 1:35:21Mr. Long: When he asked if I would consider it, I assumed he had called 50 other people who turned it down.
▶ 1:35:28Sen. Lankford: Yeah. A couple of other things, moving faster, we are going to do a tax bill here in the next couple of months to get that done like we did in 2017. There will be a lot of work that the irs has to do to be able to get those guidance documents out for clear instructions on what it means. There will likely be a lot of regulations with that.
▶ 1:35:51Sen. Lankford: The trump administration put into place oversight of the office of information and regulatory affairs to be able to look at the process when the irs did regulations. The biden administration swept it away and said we won't have oversight for irs, we are going to do it the way we want to do it. This administration has put the oversight back into place again.
▶ 1:36:14Sen. Lankford: How do you anticipate, when regulations are being created in the oversight process to be able to make sure that it's done on a timely basis because taxpayers need to get their answers and making sure that there is good oversight for the regulations paid?
▶ 1:36:27Mr. Long: I would think I would provide a cost-benefit analysis and consistency. I'm all for it, I guess I would say.
▶ 1:36:36Sen. Lankford: That's helpful. It helps us to save the taxpayer money as well to make sure there is less litigation in terms of having someone over your shoulder and having all the boxes that were checked and it follows the administrative procedure act, done correctly. It gets out answers and protects us long-term. Senator young mentioned something about casework and I want to put an exclamation point on that as well. We are experiencing more delays in getting answers back.
▶ 1:37:07Sen. Lankford: The impasse has been a crucial lifeline. Going back several years, it was a long time to be able to get an answer and our offices were flooded with questions. It has gotten progressively better but is now not as good as it was six months ago. Let's make sure that that case works. You are not leading there at this point. No matter who you are, republican or democrat, making sure our caseworkers are able to call in and submit to the irs to get an answer.
▶ 1:37:38Sen. Lankford: I want to put an exclamation point on that. The irs started putting out some occult soft letters during the biden administration. It's not an audit. Just a letter to bring information to people. No one really knew what to be able to do with this. It fell somewhere in between all the different definitions of a letter from the irs. A lot of constituents asked if it was official. Do I turn in?
▶ 1:38:09Sen. Lankford: Contact an attorney? What is your plan on interacting with constituents in my state and other states I'm trying to get official communications. Making sure it's clear that there isn't a soft letters sense of doing an audit, but not doing an audit. If you are just doing a soft letter, you don't get all the protections you get, no one knows where it would fall on this.
▶ 1:38:37Mr. Long: What was your experience? Could you get answers rapidly or not?
▶ 1:38:42Sen. Lankford: What we are getting was -- we are just requesting information. It seemed to be a new way to go get it. No one really knew what their legal protections were or how to respond to it. Does an audit now begin? What happens?
▶ 1:39:01Mr. Long: By developing the culture I want to develop over the next 90 days at the internal revenue service, I'm going to get 90 minutes -- get in 90 minutes before the building opens. I don't care what your position is, if you are the highest ranking person or been there 15 minutes, get your opinion on what's going on. Things like this, you've got my cell number, everybody on the committee will have my cell number. Don't call me unless you want me to try to help you.
▶ 1:39:31Mr. Long: We will do everything we can to be responsive. I would like to pattern some of the irs -- irs after the congressman mark green office. A lot of people you call and they are leaving in two weeks for a trip and my kid doesn't have a passport, we need to get a passport. Ok, well I will have someone get back with you that can help you with that. Mark green's office, get a passport issued, ok, let me get out of the screen I'm in and I will help you. They help you instantaneously.
▶ 1:40:02Mr. Long: I mean, I've got a lot of questions. I want to develop the answers. I know that senator wyden thinks I'm a gregarious guy and somehow that's bad, I guess, but I truly, truly like people and want to work with people. We are all in this together. Nobody benefits. I'm not in politics anymore. I mean, I'm hoping to be the irs commissioner if I'm fortunate enough to be confirmed by the committee and off the house floor.
▶ 1:40:32Mr. Long: I know that people, any time that a democrat a commissioner, 5.5 months, having people call me and coming into their office, dealing with the issues instead of trying to deal with whatever to try and prove I'm everything but a decent human being. You know, that's wrong about this town.
▶ 1:41:01Mr. Long: It's wrong about how things operate. What charles pacetti said here, it was 100% out of the committee. He got 100% of the votes, 92-0, but those days are long gone. He turned the agency around. He didn't have any tax experience. He cared about people. He cared about going out in meeting these different offices.
▶ 1:41:27Mr. Long: When we walk in that day, the district regional offices, they would go out for an audit that day. He would say I want to go out on the audit and they would say sir, you can't, you are the irs commissioner. I can't because I am the irs commissioner. It's a lot of stinking thinking that has gone on for a long time . There is a round of spots over there where have we got left to go? Let an outsider with a personality --
▶ 1:41:55Sen. Lankford: We need to go on to senator warren.
▶ 1:42:00Senator Warren: Thank you, Mr. chairman. The irs collects nearly all federal revenue, meaning that behind every road we build in every social security check we pay is the irs, making sure everyone pays what the law says they owe. No politics. Donald trump has a different idea. He wants to use the irs to punish his enemies.
▶ 1:42:25Senator Warren: May 2, trump sent "we are going to take away harvard's tax-exempt status." they wouldn't cave into other demands he made, so he said he would hurt them using the irs. This is about more than harvard. It's a threat to anyone who might displease the president. Including the people or organizations that can afford to have expensive legal battles if trump sets the irs on them.
▶ 1:42:57Senator Warren: Mr. long, when you and I met, I asked you whether it was illegal for the president to tell the irs to revoke nonprofit status. In our meeting you said you weren't sure, but that you would take a look and consult with lawyers. I sent you the statute. You've had three weeks to talk to the lawyers about it, so let's jump in. Mr.
▶ 1:43:23Senator Warren: Long, is it illegal for the president to direct the irs to revoke a taxpayer's in nonprofit status?
▶ 1:43:32Mr. Long: In the first place, he wouldn't do that.
▶ 1:43:36Sen. Warren: That's not my question. Don't start on this.
▶ 1:43:40Mr. Long: Which section?
▶ 1:43:42Sen. Warren: 26 usc 17.
▶ 1:43:46Mr. Long: Prohibits any member of the executive branch to request the irs to conduct or terminate an audit on a taxpayer. I'm going to follow the law. If that's the law, yes.
▶ 1:44:00Sen. Warren: That is the law. I want to be clear, is it illegal for the president of the united states to instruct the irs to remove a taxpayer's nonprofit status?
▶ 1:44:14Sen. Warren: Prohibits any prohibits any member of the branch to conduct or terminate an audit of the taxpayer.
▶ 1:44:21Sen. Warren: Is that a yes?
▶ 1:44:24Mr. Long: I'd have to go to the lawyers.
▶ 1:44:27Sen. Warren: You just read it.
▶ 1:44:28Mr. Long: I know. I don't see the instance you are speaking about in there. Correct me if I'm wrong, but I don't see it.
▶ 1:44:36Sen. Warren: Look, it says that it shall be unlawful for any applicable person, in this case including the president, to request directly or indirectly any officer or employee of the internal revenue service to conduct or terminate an audit or other investigation of any particular taxpayer.
▶ 1:45:05Sen. Warren: Is it illegal for the president to instruct the irs to remove nonprofit status from a taxpayer?
▶ 1:45:13Mr. Long: I'm not going to have the answer you need, I apologize.
▶ 1:45:18Sen. Warren: Why not? You have had three weeks to consult on this. The statute is about us clear as plain english.
▶ 1:45:28Mr. Long: If I say I'm going to follow the law, why would you need me to answer the question?
▶ 1:45:33Sen. Warren: To make sure that you under -- understand the question. If you think follow the law means make it up on the spot, you don't get to be the commissioner. The point here is to follow the law as it is written that I'm asking what I think is a pretty simple question. Can the president of the united states legally tell the irs to change someone's nonprofit status?
▶ 1:45:58Mr. Long: I'm not able to answer.
▶ 1:46:01Sen. Warren: You can't read these words and tell what the word say?
▶ 1:46:06Mr. Long: I can read the Sen.
▶ 1:46:08Warren: Statute and I did. Then tell me what it means. What does it mean to say that a person, and applicable person here, the president, right?
▶ 1:46:17Mr. Long: Yes.
▶ 1:46:18Sen. Warren: Cannot directly or indirectly, right, tell any officer or employee, that would be you, of the internal revenue service to conduct or terminate an audit or other investigation of any particular taxpayer. What part do you not understand?
▶ 1:46:44Mr. Long: It seems to be a nonprofit, I don't see exactly what --
▶ 1:46:55Sen. Warren: Any taxpayer. To start an investigation of any taxpayer.
▶ 1:47:00Mr. Long: If it's illegal I won't allow it to happen in my irs. We will be friends then. I want to be your friend. We will be on the same page. I'm going to follow the law.
▶ 1:47:11Sen. Warren: But do you understand the law and what it says about the president telling the irs in his dealings with any particular taxpayer, what do you understand this law to be saying?
▶ 1:47:25Mr. Long: It sounds like it's saying what you are saying, but I've got a little bit of a section here, I look at it and talked to an attorney who used to be at the irs and might be back at the irs. I'm sorry I don't have the answer.
▶ 1:47:39Sen. Warren: The lawyers told you that they couldn't understand this?
▶ 1:47:44Mr. Long: I didn't say that.
▶ 1:47:46Sen. Warren: Then tell me, what part do you not understand? It says no person. You said, that includes the president, cannot instruct any officer, that would be you, of the irs to conduct or terminate an audit or other investigation for any particular taxpayer.
▶ 1:48:10Mr. Long: I don't intend to let anyone direct me to start an audit for a political reason or any type of reason.
▶ 1:48:16Sen. Warren: Concluding the president of the united states?
▶ 1:48:20Mr. Long: Anyone.
▶ 1:48:21Sen. Warren: The president of the united states cannot tell the irs what to do.
▶ 1:48:26Mr. Long: I can't speak for other agents at the irs. They can't tell me what to do. I'm telling you what I don't want to have happen in my irs.
▶ 1:48:34Sen. Warren: You would have a lot more credibility if you would just say yes. It's clear the statute makes it illegal for the president to direct the irs vis-a-vis any particular taxpayer. The fact that you want to sit there in dance around about this tells me that you shouldn't be within 1000 miles of this directorship.
▶ 1:48:57Chair Crapo: Senator barrasso? Congratulations on this nomination. Weaponizing the irs, we saw that from the biden administration, looking into church groups, parents, all sorts of things. I want to just ask you about restoring the credibility of the irs, which I thought had lost credibility under joe biden democratic control.
▶ 1:49:24Chair Crapo: Very few agencies in washington are present in the agencies of lives of families as the irs is. I told you my concerns and the concerns of the people, that the irs is as powerful as it has been at least accountable of the agencies of the government.
▶ 1:49:41Chair Crapo: The president really shifted from helping people understand taxes to presuming everybody was breaking the law who were a bunch of crooks, 87 thousand irs agents to shake down small businesses because even the congressional budget office wanted more irs agents to bring in that much more money because they will be out there auditing small businesses and going after families. In wyoming I hear from folks who are concerned about any dealings they have with the irs.
▶ 1:50:11Chair Crapo: These are honest taxpayers who want to pay what they owe. They want to make sure that when they have a question, they can get an answer and too often, if they call repeatedly they are unable to get anybody to answer the phone or help them to comply or say yeah, this is a number that you can rely on. Pay this and it's fair. The audit notices don't seem to be delayed. Their answers seem to be delayed.
▶ 1:50:38Chair Crapo: This hiring of thousands of new agents to investigate taxpayers I think really set the irs further away from the american people in terms of an agency that they trust. If confirmed, talk a bit about how you hope to restore the credibility of the irs with the american people.
▶ 1:50:55Mr. Long: Thank you for the question. Thank you for the time and your office. My wife has deep ties with your family. She was raised out there. Wyoming. I think that, my three most important things at the irs are fairness, fairness, and fairness. They are to the taxpayer, but you have to have your employee partners who are working with them to not be intimidated by one or the other.
▶ 1:51:23Mr. Long: When you talk about calling the irs and getting that information as I mentioned earlier, I did talk radio for six years and there wasn't a week that went by where I didn't say you could call with the same question six different answers. Unfortunately, that happens still today. I don't know how to prepare for something like this. I thought was to go back and watch old commissioner hearings for people nominated to be commissioner of the irs because I thought it was important.
▶ 1:51:54Mr. Long: It's kind of the same thing over and over and over for all of these years. Whether it is technology or taxpayer fairness or heavy-handed investigations of people. Let's bring back common sense, as I told, I think it was senator young a while ago. Let's bring back common sense to the irs and stay in constant communication with senator's offices, congressman's offices.
▶ 1:52:22Mr. Long: I just left congress 2.5 years ago. I wanted the people in my office to be able to set in with you all when you develop these laws. Once it's done, you don't have to stay for 6, 10, 12 months to decide what it meant, but that's what a lot of these problems we are discussing here. Something goes to the irs and it takes them forever to put out guidance.
▶ 1:52:45Mr. Long: It's like the kings horsemen rolled into town and jumped off and read the scroll and these are the edicts for the week and they roll it up and come back three weeks later and roll out another scroll with the edicts they are deciding over there. I think communication is number one and I've always been a pretty good communicator. I want to have a very open door policy. We were talking about charles were said, earlier.
▶ 1:53:10Mr. Long: He said the first thing that he did at the irs, he went down there and all the doors were solid. He said go and get me rubber stopper. He propped his door open from that day on so that people could have accessibility to him. I want to improve on his system and have anybody that wants to know my schedule every morning for 90 minutes to hear their concerns, here how we can treat taxpayers better without being heavy-handed.
▶ 1:53:39Mr. Long: You got to collect 90% -- 96% of the income in this country, it's an important agency. The position I'm in, it's, you know, not what everybody aspires to be, but through my years on the radio and everything and all the issues I know people have at the irs, when I was in congress for 12 years, that was a large part of constituent services.
▶ 1:54:02Sen. Barrasso: Protecting taxpayer data, people are very concerned about private information. Intimidation, people feel intimidated. Especially the worry that their data might get out there, information that they don't want to share with anybody. Can you talk more about that?
▶ 1:54:19Mr. Long: I think it is vitally important, the longest section in the irs code, I think we would have to bend over backwards and do everything we could possibly do to protect that data.
▶ 1:54:32Sen. Barrasso: Thank. Senator smith?
▶ 1:54:36Senator Smith: Thank you. Mr. long, there are strong bipartisan majorities in congress that have passed laws to make it illegal for political officials to interfere in tax administration. Senator warren nasty when an easy question, is the president prohibited by law from interfering with the tax collecting work of the irs. It was difficult for you to say, that was clearly the case. Let me take this a little bit further here.
▶ 1:55:03Senator Smith: As commissioner of the irs, what would be your legal obligation, if for example, the president or vice president or a member of their sap more to tell you to investigate a foundation for the purposes of revoking a tax exempt status? What would be your legal obligation if they directed you to?
▶ 1:55:21Mr. Long: I think it would be to report to the ig.
▶ 1:55:26Senator Smith: I'm glad to hear you say that. Any employer -- employee of the irs who has received a request prohibited by this should report that. Would you do that if that were the case?
▶ 1:55:38Mr. Long: I would follow the law, and as I just said, if the to turn it over to the ig, yes. Yes, yes. Favoritism has gone on. Go back and look at the sordid history of republican democrat, republican democrat presidents over a long amount of time, they have played politics with the irs and it's not going to happen on my watch. It can't happen, I don't want it to happen, it's not right with anybody.
▶ 1:56:08Sen. Smith: Here we have a president who said specifically when he doesn't like the grantmaking activities of foundations that he questions if their tax exempt status should be revoked. I suspect Mr. long that this will be on your plate if you become commissioner. It's important for me to understand that you will follow through with it. You will follow the law here.
▶ 1:56:31Sen. Smith: I just have to raise a while ago, you did push for an investigation into a nonprofit, the situation of the missouri ballot referendum you disagreed with, you pushed for an investigation into this nonprofit, which looks to me like political interference in a tax process, which gives me a lot of, a lot of concern. Now, I want to follow up, if I may, on this question of the tot -- tribal tax credits.
▶ 1:57:02Sen. Smith: There is a long history of unscrupulous promoters trying to make a buck by taking advantage of people who are just looking to find extra money, boost their retirement, have more money for the good things in life. I know that you are familiar with this, my colleagues have asked you about this before, the tribal tax credits. I want to clearly understand, can you clearly say that these tribal tax credits were real or were they fake?
▶ 1:57:26Mr. Long: I had no indication they were anything but real. Like I said, the onus was put on their professional people to look at these. I didn't, it was only a few friends I referred them to. I said, you need to get, if you are interested -- if you aren't interested, fine.
▶ 1:57:47Mr. Long: I didn't go out -- anyway, I said get your cpa, get your cfo, talk to whoever you want, look at it and the certificates coming out of treasury to see if they are.
▶ 1:57:58Sen. Smith: Today?
▶ 1:57:59Mr. Long: I tried to find out from the irs staff the other day who said that if were like -- we can't tell you.
▶ 1:58:06Sen. Smith: The irs has clearly said that these tax credits don't exist. Could you say it today?
▶ 1:58:13Mr. Long: I haven't heard that directly from the irs. A lot of people work at the irs.
▶ 1:58:20Sen. Smith: If we provided this to you would you call it a big mistake? This is information we have gotten from the committee, from the irs. Are you disputing that?
▶ 1:58:32Mr. Long: It was before the article came out a few weeks before I was nominated. I haven't, you know, I wanted to see how it came out in the wash and see what the investigation was. I didn't mention it to one person after that saying hey, because at that point --
▶ 1:58:53Sen. Smith: The irs has said that these tax credits don't exist.
▶ 1:58:58Mr. Long: Who?
▶ 1:58:59Sen. Smith: If you became commissioner, would you take action on this? You have a blatant conflict of interest having received payment for marketing these. Would you pursue this as commissioner?
▶ 1:59:12Mr. Long: I plan to do everything that the career professionals at oge, I signed with them. Anybody who has tried to do anything illegal or whatever, they need to be investigated. With my ethics training, I'm not sure about what might involvement could be or would be. I don't want that going on.
▶ 1:59:38Mr. Long: Who would come up -- this was a publicly traded company on the sec that had these credits. I could have somebody at the irs say -- here, I'm the guy a treasury that comes out and says this. I guess you set irs?
▶ 1:59:53Sen. Smith: So, that's a lot of words. I think that the thing that I'm concerned about is that you appear to have a conflict of interest here. You receive payment for marketing these tax credits, which the irs itself says don't exist. I think this is a problem. Thank you, Mr. chair.
▶ 2:00:19Mr. Long: I will comply with oge and whatever they think is proper in that instance.
▶ 2:00:24Chair Crapo: Senator tillis?
▶ 2:00:29Senator Tillis: Thank you, Mr. chair. Mr. long, thank you for being here and congratulations on your nomination. One question that I have that relates to the employer retention tax credit, and we talked about this a bit in the office, thank you for the amount of time you spent in there. I intend to support your confirmation. I hate the employer retention tax credit, it's been abused.
▶ 2:00:54Senator Tillis: It's been abused so much that we have come up with this construct of a fake pay for on tax bills where the recovery of fraudulent claims will be used to offset future tax policy. The problem with that is that we passed this bill when we thought that this economy was going to go into the tank because of covid.
▶ 2:01:21Senator Tillis: So, we pass to the bill in a number of others on getting spending levels under control to try to help people that were struggling. What we have found, now, is that some people didn't need it, some people are applying for it way after the fact. It makes no sense to me. I know that there are already in the house a $3.5 billion recovery of fraudulent claims as paid for by future tax policy.
▶ 2:01:51Senator Tillis: I actually believe we should end it. My question to you is -- do you think that we should end of the employee retention? And whatever savings or fraudulent applications we identify, should they go back to the treasury where they came?
▶ 2:02:07Mr. Long: The, according to my understanding, and as you know, we voted on it under trumpet and then redid it hunter biden with several amendments, but the taxpayer at service, we had a discussion on an earlier, they said this was the number one problem and to my way, unless you know something about it I don't know, at the end of april 15 of this year -- 1 we are talking about -- Sen.
▶ 2:02:37Tillis: We are talking about going to january of 24 insane we won't fill those claims. We are talking about going retroactively. Some have been filled by now. I've got to work through the fairness of clawing some of the back -- some of it back. I've been trying to kill this turkey for two or three years now. I believe that we need to stick a fork in it. I believe that if money hasn't gone out the door, it needs to go out the door.
▶ 2:03:05Tillis: For the life of me and trying to figure out how the hell somebody could -- the whole idea of the covid relief policy was fiscal conservatives like me were saying -- look, I'm not going to question things when we are in the middle of a global pandemic.
▶ 2:03:18Mr. Long: I was the same way.
▶ 2:03:22Sen. Tillis: That's when you have to set the perfect decide to go ahead and stabilize it. No question congress did that. But to me this looks like I want to, I want to stick a fork in it. I want to end it. It looks like the house bill has the claims back to 24 that haven't been played out or clawed back. Do you have any concerns with that proposed policy?
▶ 2:03:46Mr. Long: I have concerns about being fair. It depends on if what we voted on in congress, that people follow the letter of the law,. The eyes come across the t's. You know that they suspended paying anybody on september 14 at 2023. So, people that were, you know, in line before that already had the paperwork in, some of those people I know still haven't.
▶ 2:04:11Sen. Tillis: Yeah. I. I can't, I can't tell you how many people I talked to in north carolina who were suffering businesses who have said, you know what, I think I can make do , I'm not going to file for the employer retention tax credit. There were some other people going -- hell, there's a pot of money out here and I'm qualified for it. Even though I may not need it, I'm going to try to get it.
▶ 2:04:39Sen. Tillis: There's a side of me that says that that is what you've ought to do if you've got a good tax lawyer and another side of me says this was a program implemented in the middle of a global pandemic when tens of thousands of americans were dyin, and it just seems to me that a good, well-run business could have looked at that and said -- I'm not going to dig a deeper hole for the deficit because I can make my business work.
▶ 2:05:04Sen. Tillis: Now, to be honest, if they are following the law, they should probably get it because we passed a bill but there are folks out there were I'm going guys, you didn't need it. The nature of your business was not one where you needed it. The lawyers got you a good credit, good on you. But that's past.
▶ 2:05:21Sen. Tillis: I'm not going to way back before 2024, but I cannot imagine that if a business has the resources where they can retain an attorney to try to get those tax dollars now, they probably weren't in much trouble. What we were trying to do was to help those who were deferent -- desperate. I feel like there was abuse there and I felt like the house bill is a good one. I was going to ask about the direct filing program and being ok with killing it. Direct file needs to go away.
▶ 2:05:53Sen. Tillis: That's good news. I want to talk to you about my concerns with the presidential priorities on nonprogram tax policies and I will submit them for the record.
▶ 2:06:02Mr. Long: I never did get my wife a sandwich.
▶ 2:06:06Chair Crapo: Senator lujan?
▶ 2:06:10Senator Lujan: Several of my questions are yes or no, just trying to help. My colleagues are going to go after me, they can get their time as well. Appreciate your support there. 850 of my constituents have written in concerned that their private data is at risk after the department of government efficiency sought access to sensitive government irs data systems and am concerned that the state of new mexico data -- bank records could be disclosed if gained access to those
▶ 2:06:43Senator Lujan: Systems. Should the irs commissioner have access to the integrated data system and my constituent private taxpayer data?
▶ 2:06:50Mr. Long: We have to protect taxpayer data at all costs. Whatever that looks like.
▶ 2:06:57Sen. Lujan: Historically, political officials, including the irs commissioner don't have access to the data. The law was changed after watergate. I don't have to get into that anymore. Do you believe the department of government efficiency should have access to the integrated data retrieval system and my constituent private taxpayer data?
▶ 2:07:17Mr. Long: I don't think that anyone's taxpayer data should be released to anyone that doesn't need it for legitimate purposes of the irs.
▶ 2:07:27Sen. Lujan: Appreciate that. Have you met with ryan wonderfully, the doge employee rented access it treasury Mr.
▶ 2:07:37Long: Data department systems. Never heard the name, sir.
▶ 2:07:40Sen. Lujan: Let me ask it this way. When doge releases the personal tax information of any person, should that person go to prison the same way that the person who released the trump tax returns went to prison for five years? Doge whendoge -- when doge releases the personal tax information of any person, should the person who released the data go to prison like the person that released the trump tax data, for five years?
▶ 2:08:10Mr. Long: I'm not familiar with the specific situation, so, I'm going to follow the law where the law takes it. If it's illegal, it's illegal.
▶ 2:08:25Sen. Lujan: Were you aware that someone went to prison for releasing the trump tax returns?
▶ 2:08:30Mr. Long: The littlejohn?
▶ 2:08:32Sen. Lujan: Mr. grassley asked the question, he asked that question.
▶ 2:08:38Mr. Long: Is this the littlejohn instance? That released everybody's and went to prison for five years?
▶ 2:08:46Sen. Lujan: Yeah, he went to prison for that and for releasing the trump tax returns. Are you aware that they went to prison for five years?
▶ 2:08:55Mr. Long: I'm aware that someone was sentenced to five years. I thought it was for a massive -- Sen. lujan: four a --
▶ 2:09:03Sen. Lujan: For releasing doge tax information. So when doge releases the tax information of my constituents, should that person go to prison?
▶ 2:09:12Mr. Long: If it is illegal.
▶ 2:09:14Sen. Lujan: Well, it's illegal. Someone went to prison for doing it for donald trump. Should they do it for someone who works on a dairy? Will move on. I hope that that's, I will submit in writing so that you can check with the lawyers and I will get an answer. The person that will be your chief counsel, are they in your room today? Your chief lawyer, your head lawyer, your top lawyer, are they in the room today?
▶ 2:09:42Mr. Long: I don't know who it would be.
▶ 2:09:44Sen. Lujan: You said someone might be earlier when someone asked to the question. You don't know who might be?
▶ 2:09:50Mr. Long: I don't see him. I don't think they are here.
▶ 2:09:53Sen. Lujan: One of my colleagues asked a question about filing taxes for free directly. But about filing for free on the direct file program.
▶ 2:10:15Mr. Long: Bring in. It's one of the hottest topics in the irs.
▶ 2:10:21Sen. Lujan: Should people, should americans be able to file the taxes directly for free?
▶ 2:10:32Mr. Long: They should be able to get their audit done. As far as filing, I think a lot of people file for free now, don't they?
▶ 2:10:39Sen. Lujan: Should they be able to file for free?
▶ 2:10:44Mr. Long: If they could, sure.
▶ 2:10:47Sen. Lujan: I will ask these a bit later, sir. Billy, you and I come from small towns. You're an auctioneer. I grew up on a small farm. People want to hear it straight. That's the relationship that you and I have. When I was in the house, we didn't vote the same a lot. We worked on bills together. We work on bills together and had honest conversations. You always kept your word.
▶ 2:11:18Sen. Lujan: That's all that I'm trying to get to the bottom of.
▶ 2:11:19Mr. Long: Same guy I was then.
▶ 2:11:22Sen. Lujan: That's all I'm trying to get to the bottom of, that's it. When we talk about the irs, my colleagues kept asking questions about making sure someone at the irs could pick up a phone. Dogedoge elon musk and -- elon musk and doge say that there will be a 40% reduction in force. Trump let that happen. Even one of my colleagues said that things were better six months ago.
▶ 2:11:53Sen. Lujan: I don't know who the president was six months ago, but it wasn't donald trump. With folks back at home, with the folks going down a dirt road you and I both know, that's what I'm asking. I appreciate that.
▶ 2:12:06Mr. Long: Appreciate it.
▶ 2:12:08Chair Crapo: Senator welch?
▶ 2:12:10Sen. Lujan: Senator welch --
▶ 2:12:15Senator Welch: Welcome, good to see you serving the house. I'm concerned about a couple of things with the irs. Number one, we have got a lot of folks who haven't paid their taxes. Estimates are that it's up to $700 billion. There is a divide in congress as to what to do about that. My view is that we should collect those taxes in there have been significant personnel cuts.
▶ 2:12:46Senator Welch: What are you going to do to make certain that folks who owed taxes pay them? Particularly focusing on the very, very wealthy, many of whom haven't even filed taxes at all?
▶ 2:12:57Mr. Long: I think that everyone has to be, it's a voluntary system. We have to make it compatible.
▶ 2:13:08Mr. Long: I'm asking -- Sen.
▶ 2:13:10Welch: I'm asking concretely what you will do to make sure that we go after them.
▶ 2:13:14Mr. Long: When I sat down with the people over there and we came up with it, with that new technology in the analytics that could sort these people out and decide someone needs to be audited, I would think that the provincials at nova analytics and things, and not -- it might answer your question?
▶ 2:13:33Sen. Welch: You are telling me that you will figure it out when you get there, use the best tools available, so thank you. Trump has sold reporters and tweeted that harvard university should lose its tax-exempt status. Do you agree with the president?
▶ 2:13:48Mr. Long: I haven't been to the irs. I haven't talked to the president about that. I don't know enough. All I've seen is a little bit of what I've read in the paper about it. We had that discussion earlier with senator warren about if it's illegal it's illegal and legal it's legal.
▶ 2:14:07Sen. Welch: This is the president's opinion, harvard should lose a tax-exempt status. Do you agree with that?
▶ 2:14:14Mr. Long: If it's legal and something needs to be done? If it's not, you can't do something illegal.
▶ 2:14:21Mr. Long: I'm not asking -- Sen.
▶ 2:14:23Welch: I'm not asking if it's illegal or not.
▶ 2:14:26Mr. Long: I don't know anything about harvard.
▶ 2:14:29Sen. Welch: You are very well informed. The administration, president trump has specifically gone after higher education. There have been significant cuts in research funding to columbia, to harvard, and to other universities. The president, who will be your boss has explicitly stated that he wants to eliminate the tax-exempt status for harvard university.
▶ 2:15:01Sen. Welch: Your opinion about the recommendation by the president, what is it, regarding harvard university losing tax-exempt status?
▶ 2:15:11Mr. Long: I'm not over there. I haven't seen why they would think that. It's something I want to get into and figure out when I'm over there. I can't, I've never been around it.
▶ 2:15:25Sen. Welch: One of the concerns, here, is that if a president is using the irs as a tool --
▶ 2:15:35Mr. Long: Should not be done by anybody.
▶ 2:15:38Sen. Welch: So, you will tell trump to pound sand?
▶ 2:15:44Mr. Long: If that's my understanding. If it's, like I said, fair, not fair, legal, not legal. If what you are saying is not legal, it shouldn't be done and nobody should. The president is explicitly stating that he wants to go after harvard.
▶ 2:16:15Mr. Long: Higher education, the institution is next. You will be in the line of fire on that. What I am looking for from you is not something you are able to give me right now, assurances that you will tell the president know when he is using --
▶ 2:16:35Mr. Long: I've said it earlier that the irs should not be politicized on my or any watch.
▶ 2:16:41Sen. Welch: The other thing I want to emphasizes service. There is an enormous wait time and it's unbelievable but doge did. Ideally, if you or anyone else is going to be the irs commissioner, they would be given the opportunity to come in, check out the situation, devise a plan on how to make it more efficient. You are coming in after the doge wrecking ball has already been there. 11,000 people are gone.
▶ 2:17:10Sen. Welch: Do you have an assessment of the capacity with current personnel to be answering the phone and providing service to american citizens across our country? Do you have thoughts about restoring these physicians to the irs to be able to do its job?
▶ 2:17:30Mr. Long: The phone service I've been given to understand, is lousy. Earlier I was talking about a fellow who contacted me to wait 2.5 hours on the phone about his 25 quarterlies. It wasn't a dispute on the amount. Something about filing or whatever. He waited for 2.5 hours. He said he had to get some information or something, so after that, when the lady picked up, he had to go and after 12 minutes --
▶ 2:18:00Sen. Welch: My time is up. I go back. Thank you, Mr. chairman.
▶ 2:18:05Chair Crapo: Thank you. Senator whitehouse?
▶ 2:18:10Senator Whitehouse: Thank you. The taxpayer advocate in rhode island noticed service dramatically approved for regular taxpayers when the additional funding for the irs came through to the irs. Wait times diminished, they could get answers much more quickly. Will you work with taxpayer advocates to listen to them and make sure that their advice is heard in your office?
▶ 2:18:38Mr. Long: Definitely. We had a bit of a discussion on that earlier. The people, a lot of people still think I'm in congress, they still contact me with their issues and I say that I'm not at the irs, I can't talk about tax issues, but then I will chatgpt them in their state and there are two or 3, 6 or seven offices , and I've had a good response.
▶ 2:19:03Sen. Whitehouse: What will your policy be if asked by political higher-ups in the white house to use the irs against perceived political --
▶ 2:19:13Mr. Long: It's not going to happen.
▶ 2:19:15Sen. Whitehouse: How will we know it's not going to happen? Are there any guardrails set up to make sure it doesn't happen?
▶ 2:19:22Mr. Long: I guess you got to figure out if I'm telling you the truth or not. It's not going to happen on my watch. Congressman, there were nine people on your 27 person committee here that I served within the house. 12 years. Most of them for 12 years.
▶ 2:19:39Sen. Whitehouse: Will you make that policy clear? Will you promise to make the policy clear the irs? Things you can do at the department of justice, one of the things you can do there is that they are scrupulous about not letting little squirrels run around in the white house.
▶ 2:19:58Sen. Whitehouse: Talking to little squirrels in the department of justice, influencing prosecutions without the attorney general or the deputy attorney general knowing the policy. Will you look at making sure in some sort of internal policy statement you are not being circumvented by some person employed by you. Those who this person where you don't know about it.
▶ 2:20:26Sen. Whitehouse: And then they said the irs commissioner didn't say anything about that.
▶ 2:20:31Mr. Long: That should not happen.
▶ 2:20:34Sen. Whitehouse: Well, make sure it doesn't. There will be every incentive to try to push these through c1 we have seen the president do it already with harvard. We were told the tax credit you are helping these private individuals to hawk, quote, the tax credit does not exist. When if you get to the irs, what he going to do about that?
▶ 2:21:05Sen. Whitehouse: >> senator wyden and another have started investigation and it is my way of thinking and whatever my oge says because I did refer friends to capital edge strategies. If anybody is doing anything legal they should be investigated. It is common sense.
▶ 2:21:34Sen. Whitehouse: >> we now have an irs employee who says this tax credit you have been hawking does not exist and I wonder what they can expect a way of retaliation for having said that. >> none. >> one other thing, let me look at your donations, the political stuff. If you could pull it up. You lost your senate primary, you carried 130,000 dollars in debt as of august 2, 2022, correct?
▶ 2:22:05Sen. Whitehouse: Then time goes by and none of that gets picked down. In fact two years and five months go by, nearly 30 months, a pretty good long time to december 4 when suddenly it is announced you are about to be the irs commissioner and after two years and five months of no activity suddenly starting the following day and in the next two months, suddenly $165,000
▶ 2:22:37Sen. Whitehouse: Floods in. Would you share with us all the communications with those donors by you or any known intermediary of yours that prompted that sudden flood of donations that ended up in your personal pocket?
▶ 2:22:58Mr. Long: As I mentioned several times today, everything that you do with the federal election commission you have to buy the book, by their rules and that is what I did. We followed the letter of the law. If there is a change you need to change what the fec does.
▶ 2:23:20Sen. Whitehouse: This is different, not just complying with the fec. This is a senate hearing about whether you should be the irs commissioner or not. If you solicited funds back then that is the sort of thing that would be shown with these individuals where you promise to share with the committee any communications related to that sudden surge of contributions to you.
▶ 2:23:47Mr. Long: I will share what we shared with the fec. , public. It is not like I thought, these people are sending money in and out.
▶ 2:24:00Sen. Whitehouse: We all know the what you filed with the fec versus what happens when you conduct an investigation and look behind the filings and communications and memos and phone call records, we are entitled in this situation, by the way, happy birthday.
▶ 2:24:19Mr. Long: Thank you -- chair
▶ 2:24:22Crapo: Thank you.
▶ 2:24:23Sen. Whitehouse: Do have a look at that is if there was an investigation to see the documents behind this and that will be my ask and my time is expired.
▶ 2:24:34Chair Crapo: Thank you. Senator danes.
▶ 2:24:37Sen. Danes: Congressman long, good to see you. I have fond memories of working together in the U.S. house. Proud to see you today as our next commissioner of the irs. Congratulations on your nomination and continued commitment to public service. It goes without saying the role of the irs commissioner is very important.
▶ 2:25:06Sen. Danes: Nobody wants to paywhen they doe experience to be as seamless a process as possible. At the very least they expect to avoid political gains. Unfortunately during the biden administration the irs suffered a massively confidential taxpayer information.
▶ 2:25:30Sen. Danes: A politically motivated contractor managed to disclose thousands of returns without authorization. The same administration allowed unannounced home visits under false pretenses and raids on small businesses to collect nonfinancial documents including my state of montana.
▶ 2:25:57Sen. Danes: This is why last congress I introduced legislation to introduce penalties for individuals who unlawfully disclose taxpayer information. We need to make sure people are held accountable for breaking the law, but it is more important to avoid these disclosures in the first place. Congressman long, if confirmed, do you commit to protecting sensitive taxpayer information?
▶ 2:26:25Mr. Long: Yes.
▶ 2:26:30Sen. Daines: Montanans rely on irs field offices when they encounter an issue and need quick answers. We had experiences on this committee where I had my staff call in to the irs helpline. At least you would expect bad 70's music. It was not even that, it was worse. They were on hold for nearly an hour listening to some really bad elevator music.
▶ 2:27:02Sen. Daines: Only then to be disconnected. My staff works closely with the field offices to get timely and substantive answers to difficult questions and situations. It is important these offices run as smoothly as possible and provide the level of service the taxpayers pay for and deserve.
▶ 2:27:29Sen. Daines: Congressman long, if confirmed, how will you strengthen the workforce of the irs to provide strong customer service?
▶ 2:27:37Mr. Long: I earlier mentioned and I don't know anybody else who knew this or thought of it, but I pledged 90 minutes before the office opens here and in montana. You may not see me much in D.C. if confirmed because I will traveling all over the country to different offices in building a culture that people want instead of looking at their watch and saying I have three years, four days in 12 minutes before I retire, I hate it.
▶ 2:28:05Mr. Long: I want them to be anxious to come into work in the morning. I want to build the culture and help employee partners to where they are like, nobody ever asked our opinion on anything ever in 27 years I have been here, never invited to the third floor where the commissioner is.
▶ 2:28:27Mr. Long: The taxpayers need the same level of service and if you get this group happy where they are not afraid of each other, I don't want to be intimidating. I think that is how you improve service. Talked for 2.5 hours, a guy waited 2.5 hours on the phone and when he got put through the lady after 12 minutes said, I don't have time for this. He gave me her name and badge number.
▶ 2:29:03Mr. Long: Everyone I have run into in D.C., treasury or opm or wherever has been very, very pleasant and they all speak and seem to be happy with what they do. I know some have taken the early out or whatever, but if they know somebody at the helm at the irs who cares about them and their life and wants their opinion, I think a lightbulb will turn on and we can get it from the cellar to the second or third floor.
▶ 2:29:38Mr. Long: If they feel better about themselves and their job, they will treat people better. I may be talking windmills, but that is what it takes. A new culture, new attitude. Keep your door open so people can have access to see who is in there. >> congressman, thank you.
▶ 2:30:02Mr. Long: My grandmother had to pick up a job because my grandpa did not make much of a living and later in life she went to work for the irs and was a dedicated federal employee for many years and she got in early, went home late. My grandma told me, count your blessings. She was a positive person and I'm sure a great, passionate service agent for taxpayers.
▶ 2:30:28Mr. Long: My point is, there is a lot of dedicated federal employees to do the right thing. They show up every day, are grateful for the work. They just need a leader that respects and empowers them, takes it out of the basement and treats them as peers versus second-class citizens and that type of leadership is needed.
▶ 2:30:50Mr. Long: My dad never had a bad day. I was telling senator wyden, he got drafted for the basketball association of america. That was his lifelong dream to play professionally. Had some health things that did not allow him to do that, but he was always positive, never had a bad day, like my grandmother.
▶ 2:31:13Mr. Long: People, if you treat them -- I like people, I like the left side, I like the right side read if people will give me a chance to show what I can do, I think we can do successful things.
▶ 2:31:27Chair Crapo: Thank you. Senator warnach. Thank you, chairman crapo. Happy birthday. I hope you get time after this hearing with your family and friends. Blessings to you. Congressman long, americans deserve fair treatment from the irs area no one should be favored for their wealth or connections, nor should anybody be targeted for their political views.
▶ 2:31:59Chair Crapo: -- sadly, attempts to weaponize the irs, we have seen this time and again in our history in the 1970's, president nixon repeatedly tried to use the irs to investigate his enemies who included civil rights leaders, journalists and even members of congress. Luckily multiple irs commissioners refused to carry out the president's orders.
▶ 2:32:30Chair Crapo: These public servants in my view our american heroes. They put the rule of law above partisan politics and in a real sense above their careers. They were focused on what was right and in response to their principled stand congress passed a law on a bipartisan basis to prohibit any president from directing the irs to target any taxpayer.
▶ 2:33:03Chair Crapo: Thank you so very much. I enjoyed meeting with you in my office last week and when we met you and I discussed how president trump has called for auditing harvard university because of their political stances. We also saw about how an administration official suggested the irs should stop auditing some of the president's's top political allies, including mike lindel.
▶ 2:33:36Chair Crapo: I have a few yes or no questions for you and I want to get through this so I will ask you yes or no questions. You told me if you got a request from the president, if you did, to audit a taxpayer, you would follow the law and ignore that request. Is that correct, yes or no?
▶ 2:33:59Mr. Long: It is partially correct. I told you he would not do that in the first place, but if he did, I would do exactly what I said.
▶ 2:34:10Sen. Warnock: So the answer is yes. You told me if you got a request from the president to hold an audit on one of his friends -- halt an audit on one of his friends or allies you would follow the law and ignore that request as well, is that still correct yes or no?
▶ 2:34:27Mr. Long: Yes.
▶ 2:34:29Sen. Warnock: You also said you would report those illegal requests to the treasury inspector general, is that correct?
▶ 2:34:38Mr. Long: The ig's office, yes.
▶ 2:34:42Sen. Warnock: You would report it to the ig office for the treasury inspector general, great. And you would report such requests to the senate finance committee, both the chair and the ranking member, is that still correct?
▶ 2:34:57Mr. Long: If that is what is protocol, yes.
▶ 2:35:03Sen. Warnock: It is not just the president who can exert enormous influence over the irs. Clearly the president could. After your nomination to head up the irs you received nearly two hundred thousand dollars in campaign contributions including from tax preparation firms who might have committed tax fraud.
▶ 2:35:27Sen. Warnock: When I met I asked if you would recuse yourself from decisions involving those donors and you said you would not recuse yourself, a few days ago. I want to ask again for the record, is it still your testimony that you will not recuse yourself from investigations involving these campaign donors?
▶ 2:35:52Mr. Long: I'm not going to deal in hypotheticals, but the oge report or whatever it is called that I signed has very specific things on what I could be involved in or not so I will go with the oge that I signed.
▶ 2:36:09Sen. Warnock: Do you think in a matter of public service, perception matters? American taxpayers should have confidence that you're making decisions based on what is right for them and not on what is right for you?
▶ 2:36:25Mr. Long: If I did what was right for me, I probably would not be sitting here today.
▶ 2:36:31Sen. Warnock: You chose to sit there which is why I'm asking the question. Perception matters in terms of the public trust.
▶ 2:36:38Mr. Long: Right, if perception is reality in the mind of the perceiver, sure.
▶ 2:36:45Sen. Warnock: I'm out of time, thank you.
▶ 2:36:49Mr. Long: Thank you, I enjoyed that meeting.
▶ 2:36:52Chair Crapo: Thank you. Senator syden has asked for one more round so he will ask his round of questions and then we will be close to wrapping up.
▶ 2:37:04Sen. Wyden: Mr. chairman I just want to go over one point that has come out and a last matter to talk about with Mr. long. Several of our colleagues expressed concerns about the irs improperly leaking data. I very much sure those concerns and want to make three points. First, the leak of taxpayer data to pro public a happened during the first trump administration.
▶ 2:37:32Sen. Wyden: Two, the contractor who leaked the information, a gentleman named Mr. littlejohn is in jail serving a three year term and three, the irs under trump has agreed to share taxpayer information with homeland security department and if you are concerned about taxpayer privacy, you sure as heck ought to be concerned about that.
▶ 2:38:00Sen. Wyden: The reason you have been getting all these questions from my colleagues with respect to this 165 thousand dollars in campaign donations after the announcement you had been nominated is the concern about the possibility that promises were made in exchange for that money.
▶ 2:38:21Sen. Wyden: I want to give you the chance to go over this with me, did you promise any tax promoter you would help them if you got confirmed?
▶ 2:38:30Mr. Long: I can answer that with an affirmative no.
▶ 2:38:36Sen. Wyden: Ok. So you did not meet with anybody when you were in town for the inauguration and promised them a private letter arrangement or something like that?
▶ 2:38:52Mr. Long: A private letter arrangement?
▶ 2:38:54Sen. Wyden: Where you said, I would help if I was confirmed.
▶ 2:38:58Mr. Long: I have not promised anybody a letter of any type I could think of. I was in room -- in my room with food poisoning during the inauguration so I did not talk to many people.
▶ 2:39:11Sen. Wyden: Our staff investigators have on tape now that you met with them in the inauguration and promised a favorable private letter ruling. We also have on paper the white river cfo who gave you the thousands of dollars that he expects favorable treatment of these fake tribal credits so that is why I'm so troubled by this argument you have given today that you can go over to the fec and see things.
▶ 2:39:42Sen. Wyden: That money does not just fall out of the sky and land at the fec and that is why these taped conversations are so troubling to me. I will close with this. I have indicated, I think whether you want to call yourself gregarious or entertaining, you're definitely that. That is not what is at issue today.
▶ 2:40:08Sen. Wyden: What is is the question of peddling fake tax credits, scamming small businesses, this questionable array of campaign contributions and I will tell you, listening to the colleagues who asked you these questions and saw the extent to which you tried to avoid answering, suggests to me a record that reflects somebody who has been up to their eyeballs in this
▶ 2:40:42Sen. Wyden: Questionable behavior and that is why I'm voting against your nomination.
▶ 2:40:44Chair Crapo: Thank you, senator. I have no further questions, congressman long. Thank you for appearing. You have been here nearly 2.5 hours. I will say this is just your most recent 2.5 hours session. I appreciate you going through our extensive vetting process with us and this completes the hearing today.
▶ 2:41:11Chair Crapo: We will move forward with the vote on your nomination at a time to be determined. I urge all my colleagues to support you at that time. With that in mind I remind my colleagues that the deadline for submitting any questions for the record is 5:00 p.m. On friday, may 23. With that the finance committee stands adjourned.
▶ 2:41:34Sen. Wyden: Thank you, -- Mr.
▶ 2:41:36Long: Thank you, thank you for your time. [captioning performed by the national captioning institute, which is responsible for its caption content and accuracy. Visit ncicap.org]