▶ 0:15:31Chair Grassley: Good morning, everybody. Today's hearing focuses on a very real threat of mexican drug cartels, and the lengths that law enforcement goes to defend americans.
▶ 0:15:54Chair Grassley: In the last few months, my colleagues on the other side yacht I'll have her old accusations at -- other side of the aisle have hurled accusations at law enforcement, the administration and members of this committee.
▶ 0:16:18Chair Grassley: They have alleged a national security crisis, and a judiciary committee asleep at the wheel. And that is a quote from them. They they pause in their breathless accusations? The american public might remember life under democratic leadership.
▶ 0:16:42Chair Grassley: They convened and converted law enforcement into overlords of speech, with their disinformation governance board. A mere three years ago, they colluded with social media company is to remove online criticisms of their policies written by their constituents.
▶ 0:17:11Chair Grassley: No longer able to delete republican words, the democrat activists storm detention centers, shove law enforcement, and disregard police orders to screen their opinions.
▶ 0:17:29Chair Grassley: They defame their dissenters with allegations of " authoritarianism." congress did not make these -- this nation's laws to the whims of righteous indignation, and bruised egos do not override the first amendment. Passionate protests do not justify laying hands on law enforcement.
▶ 0:18:01Chair Grassley: And bleeding hearts do not erase immigration laws critical to our national security. My colleagues wring their hands over the use of federal agents in the immigration operations. They fret about the diversion of resources from cartel investigations.
▶ 0:18:25Chair Grassley: Need they be reminded that under their leadership was redirected from law enforcement missions to make sandwiches for illegal migrants.
▶ 0:18:44Chair Grassley: It was democrats who threw open the sudden border by issuing notices to report because they were overwhelmed with illegally entering migrants and could not issue order -- notices to appear as required by law.
▶ 0:19:06Chair Grassley: These were foolish policies that paroled over 6000 individuals on the fbi terror screening watchlist or with criminal records into the united states and lost track of over 2 million known got aways.
▶ 0:19:28Chair Grassley: Overwhelmed by the immigration crisis they created, they released vulnerable migrant children to unvented sponsors and -- at unverified addresses. At the same time they threatened law-abiding citizens with warrantless home inspections for daring to transact a single lawful gun sale.
▶ 0:19:55Chair Grassley: They railed against the second amendment as they systematically dismantled project thor, a key program designed to identify and prosecute cartel networks smuggling guns into mexico.
▶ 0:20:11Chair Grassley: They directed overzealous inspections, intended -- attended to fly speck errors in lawful gun transactions, all while they handed over children to sponsors, preventing overtly fraudulent -- presenting overtly fraudulent documentation.
▶ 0:20:37Chair Grassley: And then they systematically ignored over 65,000 worry some reports about the status of unaccompanied children, over 7000 of which lead to human trafficking.
▶ 0:20:53Chair Grassley: Predictably, it was under their leadership that the fbi director wray saw "blinking lights everywhere." I have heard my democratic colleagues hold up some of these criminals as shining examples of the american dream.
▶ 0:21:15Chair Grassley: They mobilize their powerful platforms in defense of an alleged third -- ms 13 gang member accused of staggering acts of violence against women and children including abuse, murder, and solicitation of child pornography. The witnesses who said before us today, and I thank you for being here represent the men and women who defend america from these criminals. These are folks who enforce the law at great personal cost.
▶ 0:21:48Chair Grassley: As of late, they have been pelted with rocks, assaulted with homemade explosives and defamed and doxed by the far left. And yet they continue to hold the line against one of the greatest national security threats to america, the mexican drug cartels.
▶ 0:22:09Chair Grassley: So, we have had over the last four years the borders thrown open to criminals who would like nothing more but to see these men and women killed and lost track of who entered. Democrat homeland security mayok democrat homeland security mayo rkas and wray refused to appear on their congressional reports to threats to the homeland so let us not forget who "fell
▶ 0:22:39Chair Grassley: Asleep at the wheel." before I turned to the ranking member, I would like to play a two miti -- a two minute video showing the sacrifices that law enforcement makes to protect us from the cartels. Please show the mid -- the video. >> and american drug aid -- agent was brutally beaten. >> the kidnapping and torture and killing was arranged of a dea agent.
▶ 0:23:09Chair Grassley: The aging drug kingpin was known as the narco of goes. They called him one of the most notorious drug blows. He was among 29 cartel leaders that mexico handed over to the united states under pressure from the trump administration. 40 years of -- 40 years later they looked on as he was brought into court.
▶ 0:23:28Chair Grassley: >> under president trump and attorney general bondi, and since january 20, atf has prevented 97 firearms from falling into the hands of dangerous criminals. Over the past four years cartels have been entering the united states to the southern border and operating in our communities. >> the dea said that the cartels are present in all 50 states.
▶ 0:23:54Chair Grassley: >> shootouts and upscale neighborhoods and a truck set on fire. Armed men dragging people out of their cars and no one can stop them. [gunfire] >> these organizations are ruthless. The way they operate is through money, and they have different shields and ways of cloaking the money through different organizations that they own.
▶ 0:24:20Chair Grassley: These are multinational criminal entities that own tequila and media companies and popular artists. These guys are everywhere.
▶ 0:24:28Chair Grassley: Senator.
▶ 0:24:30Sen. Durbin: Thank you. I will speak for myself when I believe that I represent the feelings of all of the members of the senate. There is no excuse for violence in political expression in america. There is no excuse for violence against men and women in law enforcement who are doing their job and risking their lives in the process. There is no excuse for that violence in mexico, the border states or on the U.S.
▶ 0:24:58Sen. Durbin: Capitol building on january 6 when we saw the rioters come storming into the building and assaulting our men and women who risk our lives for us every day. You see them in the corridors and in the back of the hall. These are the men and women of the capitol police who came to our defense on january 6.
▶ 0:25:18Sen. Durbin: As a net result of the largest criminal prosecution in the history of jet -- in the history of the department of justice took place and some 15 hundred were held responsible. We all know what happens next. The new president on his first day in office as one of his first acts decided to give full and unconditional pardon to the individuals who beat up the law enforcement officials trying to defend us that day.
▶ 0:25:49Sen. Durbin: That was an outrage and still is. Some of these people have committed crimes again against law enforcement. That never should have happened and that pardon should not have been given. The president did that as one of his first acts of office. The second point is this, whether or not it is in mexico or the adjoining states, the united states, the fact of the matter is that we are dealing with a terrorist organizations officially declared as such.
▶ 0:26:20Sen. Durbin: We know what they are up to. They are not only a major force in the politics of mexico but a dominant force of criminality in the united states, europe, and beyond. Designating them as a terrorist organization in my mind was the right thing to do. What would we think if there were firearms dealers in the united states selling firearms to hamas in gaza? Or to isis?
▶ 0:26:50Sen. Durbin: Terrorist organizations declared to be enemies to the united states? Outrage would be the feeling and the notion that some arms dealer in the united states will sell them weapons that they can use in their evil pursuits or against america and our law enforcement. That is what is happening with the terrorist organizations and mexican cartels. They are being armed by one country, the united states.
▶ 0:27:21Sen. Durbin: Firearms dealers in this country are selling guns into mexico, to the cartels. And they are being used for their plans across the united states. I think -- thank senator grassley for his hearing to -- with the threat for cartels. And I appreciate the focus on this issue.
▶ 0:27:49Sen. Durbin: Cartel violence have hit border states hard. But these impact all of us across the united states. Through sophisticated nationwide networks, that networks are profiting from harming americans and neighbors across the southern border. We must acknowledge the role the united states has played in arming the cartels.
▶ 0:28:14Sen. Durbin: Sending hundreds of thousands of american-made firearms south in an iron river and empowering their violence. We are supplying the firearms for the mexican cartels. Although, mexico has one legal gun shop. One in their nation located on a military base.
▶ 0:28:39Sen. Durbin: The country has faced a surge in widespread violence over the past decades as gangs in cartels have illegally acquired weapons. According to the most recent data available for atf, 70% of guns recovered from crime scenes in mexico came from the united states. That is a fact. Some of them are 50 caliber rifles.
▶ 0:29:07Sen. Durbin: Experts can tell us that is not a rifle used in sport or hunting. These are capable of horrific -- ripping through armored police cars and downing aircraft. It is these american sales that are arming them with the deadly weapons. They cannot be legally purchased in mexico but they can be in the united states and they are being used against our interests.
▶ 0:29:31Sen. Durbin: President trump's recent order diverting law enforcement agent away from combating drug and firearm trafficking and towards mass deportation efforts is particularly dangerous, making it more difficult for us to stop these cartels. This will make it easier for cartel violence and drug and human trafficking to continued.
▶ 0:29:55Sen. Durbin: Done smuggled from the united states are in the cartels, destabilize symbols of -- civil society and increase violence. This bolsters the cartel's ability to funnel drugs into the united states, fueling the narcotics crisis. Mexican cartels are responsible for a significant portion of cocaine, fentanyl, heroin, marijuana and methamphetamines.
▶ 0:30:21Sen. Durbin: Currently most of the fentanyl is manufactured and trafficked by the sina loa cartel armed with guns sold to them from america. These guns fuel a vicious and never-ending cycle of violence with drugs flowing low north and guns in both cash flowing south. We must end the cycle before innocent lives are lost.
▶ 0:30:48Sen. Durbin: When I was chair of this committee the congress passed the safer communities act, creating federal straw purchasing and trafficking criminal offenses allowing prosecutors to target dangerous illegal gun runners that for decades had escaped prosecution. This is a major step in the right direction and we must build on this to reduce gun trafficking at the border.
▶ 0:31:15Sen. Durbin: That is why I introduced the stop arming cartels act which would end easy access to these high-powered rifles, the weapon of choice of the cartels that they used to create chaos in mexico and allow victims of gun violence to sue gun dealers who knowingly transact with kevin -- with drug kingpins. Doesn't that make sense?
▶ 0:31:36Sen. Durbin: If your firearms dealership will knowingly interact with cartels should you stop and be held responsible? It is time to end the cycle of violence. And let us make it clear, we will not defeat the cartels by mass deportations and immigrants especially those who pose no threat to public safety. If someone is here and a danger to the united states they ought to be gone, period.
▶ 0:32:04Sen. Durbin: In order to truly weaken the cartels we must stop the flow of guns for good and allow federal law-enforcement to do their jobs instead of diverting them towards fulfilling a campaign promise.
▶ 0:32:17Chair Grassley: Thank you, senator. I will now introduce our witnesses and swear that man. We have a rare opportunity to hear from people on the front lines of cartel enforcement. So, the justice department and homeland security has responded to my request to send individuals with first-hand experience on the line.
▶ 0:32:46Chair Grassley: Matthew allen is a -- of the drug enforcement administration, currently serving as special agent in charge of the los angeles field division of dea, a position he has been in since december 2023. He has been with dea 22 years serving in various roles in the united states, and overseas in mexico city and afghanistan.
▶ 0:33:19Chair Grassley: While serving in mexico, he oversaw all of the dea operations of mexico, central america, and canada. Prior to joining the dea, he was a police officer in charleston, south carolina. Jason stevens of homeland security investigation.
▶ 0:33:44Chair Grassley: Since 2025 of february, he has served as special agent in charge of the el paso field division. Mr. stevens has been deployed at hsi since august, 2003 and served in several roles along the mexican border, southwest region of the united states.
▶ 0:34:10Chair Grassley: While serving as assistant special agent in charge of las vegas, he and his team participated in operation silver shield in july 2020, which culminated in the arrest of 21 ms 13 leaders and members. This operation effectively disrupted the ms 13 ls -- l.a.
▶ 0:34:39Chair Grassley: Program's attempts to consolidate its U.S. operations. Prior to joining homeland security, he was a state trooper, an arizona department of public safety for 10 years and served as a marine for four years prior to that.
▶ 0:34:57Chair Grassley: José perez, fbi agent, recently became assistant director and the fbi's criminal division after serving as special agent in charge of the phoenix division in arizona. Mr. perez has 20 years of experience having served in various roles in D.C., dallas, las vegas and miami.
▶ 0:35:28Chair Grassley: Prior to joining the fbi, he worked as a special pretrial services officer for several years in federal district, miami. I thank you for your service and could you please rise so I can give you the oath?
▶ 0:35:45Chair Grassley: Do you swear or affirm that the testimony that you are about to give before the committee is the truth, the whole truth and nothing but the truth so help you god? All answered affirmative. We will start off with Mr. allen , stevens, and then Mr. perez. Please proceed.
▶ 0:36:10Mr. Allen: Chairman grassley, ranking member durbin and distinguished members of this committee, thank you for the opportunity to speak here. Ib -- I have here on behalf of the men and women of the dea los angeles field division. Analysts and support staff who work on the front lines of the synthetic drug crisis in one of the most strategically important regions in the country, and I wish I could begin with a statistic or a chart.
▶ 0:36:41Mr. Allen: But the truth is better understood in silence. In the stillness of a teenager's bedroom whose phone number lights up again and whose laughter has gone quiet. All because of a single counterfeit bill. Made for $.10 in a lab and sold for $25. That is the price of american life today. I lead the los angeles field division and we are not dealing with street dealers.
▶ 0:37:10Mr. Allen: What we face today is a full-scale infiltration by foreign criminal empires. Paramilitary organizations with global supply chains, corporate level logistics and battlefield tactics. Weeks ago the rai -- we raided a warehouse not far from our office.
▶ 0:37:34Mr. Allen: Painted across the wall was a mural of their most recent -- ruthless leader, clad in a bulletproof vest and flanked by the insignia. A shrine. Not hidden in the jungle, but right in the heart of america's second largest city. The message was clear.
▶ 0:37:57Mr. Allen: During the trial, cartel operatives were caught surveying dea agents in washington, D.C.. They struck back in mexico, shooting the wife and killing the daughter of an informant and killing a mexican army soldier. This is who we are up against, a paramilitary cartel with global reach, willing to care -- to kill families and survey U.S.
▶ 0:38:29Mr. Allen: Personnel on our own soil. We uncovered that his own daughter and son-in-law were living in a gated community just down the street from the chief of police. When we executed that word we received garbage bag stuffed with designer shoes, luxury handbags totaling over $2.5 million in assets and over $1 million in cash.
▶ 0:38:52Mr. Allen: They were not hiding in the shadows but in plain sight, sending arc -- their kids to their schools and laundering death through the american dream. They did not just destroy lives but communities. They explore banks and our immigration station -- system. Cartels weaponize chaos.
▶ 0:39:15Mr. Allen: They flog smuggling routes with poison and people and recruit from migrant populations and use human life as shield and currency. The border crisis is not separate, it is one in the same. The streets of los angeles have been brought to unreal -- unrest related to immigration enforcement. Let me be clear. The dea's role is narrow, targeted and mission-critical.
▶ 0:39:44Mr. Allen: We support immigration investigations that intersect with drug trafficking and violent crime. We cannot ignore that the smugglers are embedded in these networks. And when they embed they do not just traffic people but power. Power that turns into fentanyl, firearms, and fear. What is happening in los angeles is a symptom of something more dangerous, criminal networks that so chaos and try to erode public trust because cartels thrive when our institutions are divided.
▶ 0:40:15Mr. Allen: We are not divided in dea, we are united by duty, mission, and memory. The field division help to bring to justice the man who orchestrated the torture and murder of a special agent nearly four decades after his death because we never forget and never stop. Whether it takes four weeks or 40 years, if you harm the american people, we will talk -- we will find you. If you take one of our own, we will bring you to justice. That is a promise.
▶ 0:40:47Mr. Allen: We are proud of the work we have done in los angeles targeting leadership and reclaiming neighborhoods block by block. Pride will not stop the next overdose or dismantle the next lab or freeze the next $10 million in dirty crypto. That takes resolve and resources.
▶ 0:41:08Mr. Allen: I am extremely bait -- grateful for the bipartisan act and we need the continued bipartisan support to continue to fight across every shadow that this cartel hides in. They do not retreat, but neither do we. Behind every investigation there is a child who should still be alive. A mother who should still be hot -- smiling and a community that should still be whole. This is not just a public health emergency but a moral one.
▶ 0:41:36Mr. Allen: We will not stop until every child has a chance to grow up and every parent can open their child's bedroom door and find life but not lost on the other side, because of families cannot wait in the crisis cannot pause in the cartels will not stop. Dea is not new to this fight but it is changing and we are ready. Thank you, and I look forward to your questions.
▶ 0:42:04Mr. Stevens: Members of the committee, thank you for the opportunity to appear before you today. It is a privilege to represent the men and women of homeland security investigations, the principal investigative arm of homeland security.
▶ 0:42:23Mr. Stevens: We are committed public servants whose mission transcends policies and protocols and a passion to show up every day with a single mission, to protect the american people from threats that know no borders and threats that infiltrate communities and exploit the travel, trade and financial systems. Hsi agents are driven by duty and not recognition. I am proud to speak on their behalf.
▶ 0:42:52Mr. Stevens: I would like to speak to you about one of the most dangerous of those threats, cartels. And the risk that law enforcement faces to repel these foreign terrorist organizations and those who provide material support. They are not just trafficking drugs, they are trafficking violence, human suffering and death. They are adapting constantly and operating with global reach. How we frame the mission defines how we face it.
▶ 0:43:23Mr. Stevens: -- hsi is built to face that threat. We have 8800 personnel across 240 three cities and 90 international offices. We partner with 4500 task officers from federal state, local and other departments giving us a unity of effort. We do not just chase criminals, we dismantle criminal networks from transportation networks to international finance to command-and-control.
▶ 0:43:51Mr. Stevens: This is not just about law enforcement national security. Perspective drives presence. How we see the threat shapes how we show up to solve it. Executive order 14 157 recognized what our agents have seen for years. The cartels do not just operate like terrorist organizations, ar.
▶ 0:44:18Mr. Stevens: This designation allows us to treat them as such and act decisively to freeze assets, cut off finances and prosecute foreign nationals and U.S. citizens who provide them with material support. Last year alone, hsi launched 7000 drug trafficking investigations making 10,000 is arrests and seized massive amounts of cocaine, and fentanyl along with illicit proceeds.
▶ 0:44:48Mr. Stevens: The fentanyl continues to devastate families and communities. And so we continue to adapt. Internationally agents are embedded in 50 five countries and we exchange information, facilitate enforcement actions and participate in joint missions with foreign partners, partnerships that lead to real, preemptive disruptions.
▶ 0:45:14Mr. Stevens: Since january, they have resulted in major seizures and arrests before the drugs reach our U.S. borders. At home, we are going after the cartels and through their financial networks. These organizations are increasingly relying on chinese monarch -- money laundering to move and repatriate billions in illicit proceeds.
▶ 0:45:35Mr. Stevens: Hsi is targeting these networks, following the money, freezing the accounts, and cutting off the oxygen that fuel cartel operations. At the heart of our future posture is a new model, the homeland security tax force. This is hsi and fbi led efforts.
▶ 0:45:58Mr. Stevens: Along with our partners from dea, atf and state and local partners, it is a true team of teams which will work together to bring down the cartels. We will continue leveraging expertise, tools and partnerships to confront the threats had on and to protect communities, defend our children, and uphold the rule of law. Thank you for your continued support and I look forward to your questions today.
▶ 0:46:25Chair Grassley: Now Mr. perez.
▶ 0:46:27Mr. Perez: Good morning chairman grassley and ranking member durbin and other members of the committee. Thank you for having me here to discuss efforts to combat mexican cartels and to represent the men and women of the fbi. The fbi --
▶ 0:46:46Sen. Durbin: Could you pull the microphone a little bit closer. Thank you.
▶ 0:46:52Mr. Perez: I am sorry. The fbi has long prioritized the fight against gangs and cartels that traffic dangerous drugs like fentanyl across our borders . We have led major investigations through our safe streets task forces and drug enforcement task forces, working side-by-side with federal, state and local partners to disrupt drug pipelines and dismantle criminal networks.
▶ 0:47:21Mr. Perez: What we face today is more complex and more violent and interconnected than before. The criminal investigative vision his leg or -- laser focused on dangerous narcotic tests -- narcotics. As of today the fbi has several cases with 800 50 linked cartel leadership including tda and sina loa.
▶ 0:47:46Mr. Perez: That means addressing every link in the chain including the street gangs that help move their product, and enforce violence at home. This is not just a border problem but a nationwide crisis. To effectively dismantle these networks, we are spirit letting -- spearheading the homeland security task forces. Hstf improves real-time intelligence sharing and targeting threats.
▶ 0:48:15Mr. Perez: The focus on disrupting tco's engaged in homicide, money laundering, drug trafficking and other crimes in the united states and around the world. This coordination is backed by significant resources. More than 2200 special agents and 4900 task force officers are dedicated to full-time targeting violent gangs.
▶ 0:48:39Mr. Perez: The foreign tourist organization designation is a powerful tool and enhances intelligence collection, deepens collaboration and enables doj to pursue investigations related to these charges including material support against cartel members. In january we have made 500 arrests more than half involving these organizations and expanded networks.
▶ 0:49:09Mr. Perez: The team and mexico captured one of our most wanted fugitives links to rival gang members. This is part of the broader strategy that targets threats at all levels through a multipronged approach. The fbi's active investigations and many types of gangs like mexican mafia, these offer it often act as vital partners expanding region helping evade law enforcement.
▶ 0:49:38Mr. Perez: With more than 2500 arrests we work with local state and law enforcement partners to dismantle violent street gangs using the enterprise theory of investigation enabling tougher charges. An fbi investigation led to the largest fence analyses are -- seizure at -- and the arrest of a convicted felon. That is enough to kill four times the state population.
▶ 0:50:03Mr. Perez: 30 people are facing charges for trafficking related offenses related to fentanyl and crack cocaine. We are also targeting opioid sales with our team. Just last month, the group identified 270 dark web vendors and administrators in 10 countries including the united states and arrested them on federal charges. That led to the seizure of 200 tons of narcotics.
▶ 0:50:33Mr. Perez: Violence and drugs are flooding our neighborhoods and showing up where kids play or walk to school. They end up in the wrong hands and fuel fear. They also target the brave men and women in law enforcement who risk their lives to protect their communities. Agents have been forced to take cover while being fired upon but it does not stop us from doing our jobs and underscores why increased efforts are central. Congress plays a critical role in our efforts.
▶ 0:51:03Mr. Perez: Continue support for resources and improves technology allows the fbi to stay ahead of sophisticated threats posed by these dangerous organizations. I want to reiterate my own weight -- are unwavering -- and thank you for protect -- for helping us to attack this threat. And I look forward to your questions.
▶ 0:51:24Chair Grassley: Thank you very much. We will have a five-minute minute round of discussions. On our side it will be this order. Grassley, coordinated, league, prints, moody and graham. On the democrat side it will be durban, white house, klobuchar, blumenthal, carano, padilla, and schiff.
▶ 0:51:54Chair Grassley: There is a long and tragic history of cartel members targeting american law enforcement. So please, briefly elaborate on threats that you and the agents you work with have received.
▶ 0:52:06Mr. Allen: I would be happy to do that. As mentioned in my opening statement, we have instances of cartel members surveilling dea agents in the united states.
▶ 0:52:23Mr. Allen: Additionally, in my 22 years plus with dea in the los angeles area and others in the world, I have experienced several instances of criminal organizations watching our people in mexico in the united states.
▶ 0:52:38Mr. Allen: It is not uncommon when our agents leave in operation to notice surveillance behind them and have to call a black-and-white unmarked unit -- marked unit to have the car stopped and have investigation stem off of that. And then there is the obvious, the danger that they face every day conducting enforcement operations and search warrants.
▶ 0:53:03Mr. Allen: I have lost personally several friends on this job and two very close friends of mine. So yes, it is a dangerous job.
▶ 0:53:13Chair Grassley: Mr. perez, tom holman disclosed that the biden administration released 1000 200s of need to iranian nationals into the united states , crossing the border illegally. That is according to news reports, iran threatens to activate sleeper cells inside the united states.
▶ 0:53:39Chair Grassley: How is the united -- the fbi repairing for a sleeper cell activation?
▶ 0:53:45Mr. Perez: Thank you. Obviously, terrorist is a product -- is a top priority and continues to be so. We are reprioritizing resources against the threat and leveraging our intelligence and partnerships to address those cases and individuals, particularly on entries that have occurred.
▶ 0:54:10Mr. Perez: We have been working with several months on immigration enforcement with dhs counterparts and we are more well positioned to leverage the tool as a resource to lead to its immediate disruption if that situation presents itself. This is handled more by the counterterrorism division, but we are well-positioned to address that threat.
▶ 0:54:31Chair Grassley: Mr. allen, in 2024, your agents arrested a man in riverside, california where he posed as an lawn business. He leads the cjng, a violent cartel that flooded the united states with fentanyl and murder ed hundreds of individuals.
▶ 0:55:03Chair Grassley: He was part of the cartel leadership. What presents that he established in california? And how did he do it?
▶ 0:55:13Mr. Allen: I believe you are referring to the arrest of christiane gutierrez oscega? My agents established surveillance at a residence that they believe that he lived at. It came to our attention that he was living in a gated community.
▶ 0:55:42Mr. Allen: So, he was in the country because he was fleeing mexico. He was wanted mexico for the kidnapping of marines. He faked his own death, got a new name and came to america. He was living in a neighborhood with the chief of police, living a life of luxury. We shared some of the photographs with this committee as far as a search warrant went with luxury watches and handbags and things of that nature. He was living out his life in the united states.
▶ 0:56:13Chair Grassley: Mr. stephens, I have half a minute left. So I will ask you this question. Members of this committee have cited misleading data regarded who is bringing fentanyl into this country. What have you learned about the tunnel that I was supposed to describe between warez and el paso?
▶ 0:56:39Chair Grassley: About the tunnel and how does a caution against relying solely on seizure statistics at point of entry for determining how drugs are smuggled into the country?
▶ 0:56:49Mr. Stevens: Thank you. That tunnel is under investigation and we have indicted two individuals. It was approximately four by six. Two individuals of my size could walk through that tunnel side-by-side. We had significant concerns because it could have individuals transiting through the tunnel, unknown and undetected. There could be contraband brought through the tunnel as well and we know that money and weapons could be smuggled through the tunnel.
▶ 0:57:20Mr. Stevens: It had a light system and ventilation, which would allow them to walk through there and see where they are going and comfortably walk through without any breathing issues.
▶ 0:57:30Chair Grassley: Senator durbin.
▶ 0:57:32Sen. Durbin: Thank you. My thanks to you and your organizations and the men and women who literally risk their lives for us every single day to stop this crisis. I thank you for that and hope that you will convey that feeling to them as well. I would like to read something and see if any of you disagree with this. Cartels have flooded the nation with illegal firearms sold by U.S. gun manufacturers.
▶ 0:58:03Sen. Durbin: The mexican government estimated that around 200,000 U.S. sourced firearms are smuggled into mexico annually. Do you disagree with that? I see no disagreement. The hope is that the united states can do something about the flow of firearms from our country into mexico to these cartels.
▶ 0:58:32Sen. Durbin: Heavily armed cartels use military style weapons and other weapons to assassinate politicians, attacked the military, kill judges, journalists, police, and terrorize ordinary citizens. They traffic drugs into the U.S. and spur migration and they are using the same weapons against our men and women of law enforcement? Do you disagree with that? No disagreement.
▶ 0:59:04Sen. Durbin: In january the justice department reported a 25% increase in truck -- in crime gun tracing request for mexican authorities in recent years. Over three fourths of crime guns are traced to four states, arizona, california, new mexico, and texas according to the justice department? Has that been your experience as well? But these are the large sources of firearms coming into the cartels?
▶ 0:59:34Sen. Durbin: The answer seems to be in the affirmative. It is also noteworthy that 90 percent of gun dealers in the united states do not sell guns into the crime gun pipeline. If you act safely, as most do, you would not supply that pipeline. It is a small percentage of gun dealers that sell all of the crime guns and manufacturers have been told not to supply those dealers, have you heard about that?
▶ 1:00:05Sen. Durbin: Have you heard anything about that? It seems like this will be a critical part. When we get into firearms we start talking about the second amendment and we choose our sides and go to our respective corners. It happens in congress and it happened today. I listen carefully to your presentations each of you. You mentioned the word firearm one time. Mr. stevens you referred to the atf and Mr. perez, you referred to weapons.
▶ 1:00:34Sen. Durbin: This seems to be a major element, armoring -- arming the terrorist groups. Do you think that the end of this problem does something about doing something about weapons shipped from the united states into the hands of the mexican cartels?
▶ 1:00:51Mr. Allen: Sir, I think that one of the best tactics that we have at our disposal to combat that is the formation of these homeland security taskforces. It is the greatest collaborative effort taking on this whole-of-government approach and whole of federal law approach in combating these organizations that use our own freedoms against us on a regular basis.
▶ 1:01:17Mr. Allen: I can stand before you and say it is one of the greatest collaborative -- egos aside, you know side to side everyone is in this fight together.
▶ 1:01:29Sen. Durbin: Can you tell me what is being done to stop the flow of farms in the united states into the hands of these cartels selling drugs?
▶ 1:01:37Mr. Allen: Specifically on the firearms issue I would have to deter -- defer to my colleagues. With the formation of these taskforces you are seeing increased information sharing and intelligence sharing and that will go a long way.
▶ 1:01:51Sen. Durbin: What is your experience?
▶ 1:01:54Mr. Stevens: Thank you. I think it is a phenomenal opportunity. We are bringing all of our super and authorities together in one room. We work daily with the atf and texas and new mexico to have an understanding as it relates to their purchasing. And also understanding the role in our partnerships with customs and border protection to ensure that outbound inspections are done and we continue operations in the el paso region.
▶ 1:02:25Mr. Stevens: Over this past last operations we worked and seized over 19,000 rounds of melamine or ammo and 50 calibers and 400 rounds of 22 and three rifles for pistol -- and four pistols. We are working every single day to ensure that staff exported out of the country is stopped.
▶ 1:02:49Sen. Durbin: Are you identifying the gun dealers who are supplying mexican cartels with the firearms?
▶ 1:02:56Mr. Stevens: We are allowing atf to work that back. We are identifying the network it is going to and providing that information with atf who is partnered with us and they are working it back to the gun store.
▶ 1:03:10Sen. Durbin: I would like to ask Mr. perez to respond.
▶ 1:03:14Mr. Perez: We spent a lot of time talking about fentanyl, but the focused are gang investigations were broadly focused. These are involved in gun trafficking and narcotics trafficking. When we talk about investigating cartels it is all elements. Money movements or illicit trafficking in firearms. If we identify co-conspirators as a part of that, we will investigate that.
▶ 1:03:41Sen. Durbin: Does that include american firearms dealers selling the guns?
▶ 1:03:46Mr. Perez: Anyone complicit in that conspiracy, potentially, or we find to be complicit we will present that for prosecution.
▶ 1:03:56Sen. Durbin: Have there been prosecutions?
▶ 1:03:59Mr. Perez: I do not have any first-hand examples and I would refer to atf for that piece specifically. Just in the last six months there were cartel gang investigations, we have seized close to 4000 guns nationally but 2200 along the border. As we investigate more aggressively the cartels and gangs we will encounter illicit firearms and how they have landed in the hands of these criminals.
▶ 1:04:24Sen. Durbin: Thank you.
▶ 1:04:27Chair Grassley: Before I call on the senator I would like to remind everybody in this area that senator durbin is talking about this but senator cruz and I have introduced the protecting communities and preserving the second amendment act, it would establish a law enforcement run taskforces along the southern border to combat cross-border gun sales.
▶ 1:04:55Chair Grassley: So far we do not have got -- have bipartisan support but I would beg for that. This is partly an answer to the fact that under the biden administration, they did implement new rules that would work with the federal firearms licensees, and it is a valuable source.
▶ 1:05:18Chair Grassley: That is a valuable source of intelligence for law enforcement communities, and that effort was lost. Go ahead, senator.
▶ 1:05:26Sen. Cornyn: Thank you for being here and for your service to the nation. It is critical work. Sometimes, I feel like we are bailing a sinking boat. And, if I reflect on it, there are a couple of reasons why that is the case.
▶ 1:05:49Sen. Cornyn: Number one, for the past four years, and open border policy which was basically an open door to criminality, gangs, human trafficking, drugs, and the like which made the united states a lucrative market for the work of the cartels. The second, and I want to direct this to you, we have a partner, so to speak in mexico.
▶ 1:06:20Sen. Cornyn: To deal with some of these issues. But, in fact the corruption in mexico is long-standing and an endemic problem. One report recently said that in a review of the activities of state-level anticorruption prosecutors in five mexican states.
▶ 1:06:43Sen. Cornyn: Out of 6500 investigations opened, only 22 convictions were achieved. And yet we depend on mexican officials and their vetted units to work with our intelligence community and law enforcement agencies to go after the fentanyl labs and the cartels. But what do we need to do?
▶ 1:07:10Sen. Cornyn: Or is there anything more that we can do to address the corruption issues in mexico? It seems like president trump has gotten the attention of president sheinbaum and certainly the extradition of the 29 individuals was a positive sign. I do not recall that happening under any previous president. What do we need to do to address the problems of corruption in mexico?
▶ 1:07:39Mr. Perez: Corruption is a significant issue in mexico and other countries that we work in. There is a lot of cooperation and we build on it. We have our largest legal attaché office throughout mexico. We work with vetted teams. We have our partners within mexican law enforcement that we have trained and vetted and we try to build bilateral cooperation.
▶ 1:08:09Mr. Perez: Again, corruption exists and it is an issue we are aware of. We try to build on that capacity and that is part of our mission to build that capacity. We brought those officers and prosecutors to the academy is not just for mexico but from other countries to build that capacity and work on these cases. The highlight including the extradition. We have had a number of other successes. They come directly attributable to the cooperation.
▶ 1:08:39Mr. Perez: We want to build on the positive and work through any of that corruption and work as best as we can to build their capacity and work towards bilateral success.
▶ 1:08:48Sen. Cornyn: Mr. stevens and Mr. allen, do you feel like our ability to make progress in this area against the cartels should be dependent on the cooperation of the mexican government? Or are there things that the united states ought to be doing unilaterally to address this threat?
▶ 1:09:08Mr. Stevens: Thank you for your question. Hsi is uniquely placed with some of the largest vetted units in mexico, along with our attachés and agents. While we have seen corruption what we are seeing is increased cooperation.
▶ 1:09:28Mr. Stevens: We have been working through capacity building and we have seen commitment including a success earlier this fiscal year of the seizure of the largest amount of fentanyl seized in mexico's history. We have had successes and we will continue to try and build on that with our current attaché teams.
▶ 1:09:49Sen. Cornyn: Mr. allen?
▶ 1:09:51Mr. Allen: I would echo my colleagues about the cooperation of mexico and the words about corruption in mexico. I spent two years in mexico and had a front row seat. Historically, there is quite a bit of corruption in mexico. I am optimistic with president sheinbaum's administration especially the head of the mexican security department, who we have a history with.
▶ 1:10:21Mr. Allen: As far as directly to your question, I think unilaterally and bilaterally, any tools we could bring to save american lives to this fight you will.
▶ 1:10:30Chair Grassley: Senator klobuchar.
▶ 1:10:34Sen. Klobuchar: Thank you for your good work in march, the U.S. attorney's office in minnesota indicted 11 people after federal law-enforcement with state and local partners work together. As you know from the horrible tragedy last week, we have a good team of law enforcement that work well together across the board.
▶ 1:11:00Sen. Klobuchar: They broke up a mexican drug cartels trafficking ring that smuggles large amounts of meth from mexico to the twin cities in addition to drug trafficking. They were also charged with kidnapping people who owed the money. From my past experience with eight years as the da for hennepin county, the largest county in our state where the murders occurred, actually this last week.
▶ 1:11:27Sen. Klobuchar: I know how important it is to have that coordination. Could you talk about how we can create better coordination between agencies over the past few years.
▶ 1:11:37Mr. Allen: I am happy to. Dea and I am speaking for dea, we participate in a lot of taskforces. As a matter of fact, in the los angeles field division, two of our most productive groups are task force groups that lead the division and seizures, arrests and prosecutions. That speaks to the ability of task force environments to get things done.
▶ 1:12:07Mr. Allen: It speaks to the benefits of information sharing and working with our partners, and we plan to continue doing that especially with the formation of these homeland security taskforces. This is probably the biggest collaboration that I have seen in my career. In attacking this problem.
▶ 1:12:32Sen. Klobuchar: Mr. stevens, I actually went to mexico once at some other senators and cindy mccain on the traffic of human trafficking and the relationships with the cartels on that front. In 2023 the president signed my bill with senator cornyn to support survivors of trafficking.
▶ 1:12:58Sen. Klobuchar: And of course, your agency plays an important role in combating human trafficking. There have been numerous point -- numerous proof of cartels turning to human trafficking is another revenue stream. Can you talk a little about that?
▶ 1:13:17Mr. Stevens: I would like to extend our consultant -- our condolences, thoughts, and prayers to your community. That was extremely heartbreaking. Hsi has the center for traffic -- for countering human trafficking that exists and is supported by teams that cover over sex and labor trafficking. They support hsi investigations and other investigations around the country.
▶ 1:13:47Mr. Stevens: Gangs and cartels use and focus on sex trafficking as a revenue stream. We have seen that in our tva cases and ms 13 cases where they traffic individuals who are vulnerable and exploitable. We are continuing to investigate those.
▶ 1:14:04Mr. Stevens: In fact, we have 43 indictments currently that we have been able to put out and that would be 34 indictments on those organizations for sex trafficking.
▶ 1:14:20Sen. Klobuchar: I appreciate it. Mr. perez, the fbi played a major role in tracking this killer, and I want to thank your agency for that. I just had a question about mexican drug cartels profiting off of arms trafficking, similar to the human trafficking and using that flow of money and firepower to expand their enterprises. Could you comment on that?
▶ 1:14:47Mr. Perez: Our focus is on the cartels and we are not tied to a unique violation, if you well. Our c1 they are not tied to one low asian or violation which is why we believe in the task force concept. There are a lot of things dea can do, our state and local partners as well.
▶ 1:15:14Mr. Perez: Any success I've had working cases were leading teams has been directly attributed to taskforces with state and local federal partners. We address it by drinking in different resources so we work closely with the atf and even historically.
▶ 1:15:32Mr. Perez: The goal as just occurred recently in your hometown, in that unfortunate case, that was worked in a very collaborative sense. We leveraged state and federal resources to lead to whatever the most effective result is to bring closure to that.
▶ 1:15:52Senator Klobuchar: One very quick question near and dear to both of our hearts. 10 second answer. One third of drug cases had direct ties to social media. Do cartels use social media to traffic narcotics?
▶ 1:16:07Mr. Perez: Yes, ma'am.
▶ 1:16:11Chair Grassley: Senator blackburn.
▶ 1:16:15Senator Blackburn: Yes indeed, we are watching closely what the cartels are doing on social media. It is a point of concern. Mr. stevens, I want to come to you in your role.
▶ 1:16:34Senator Blackburn: I think that you probably recognize how important state and local participation with ice is as we are apprehending criminal, the criminal element and these gang members that are tied to ms 13 and trend their aqua. One of the things I worked on is the clear act.
▶ 1:17:03Senator Blackburn: It would enable local and state law enforcement to work with ice , talk a little bit about the importance of having state and local participation with ice as we do these apprehensions. >> it is extremely important.
▶ 1:17:35Senator Blackburn: I have a very unique footprint. I have a boot in the state of western texas where we have extreme support from law enforcement. We are able to work with state and local agencies. I have a boot in new mexico which has more regulations. I have successes in those locations because I have great partnerships.
▶ 1:18:04Senator Blackburn: In my role as the special agent in charge, I have to have political conversations with law enforcement leaders instead of public safety. Our goal is to be able to go in and see how we can most help our state and local partners. I wished I would have known what I know now.
▶ 1:18:27Senator Blackburn: Having those abilities to have those conversations without putting my state and local partners in a bad position with mayors or city councils is important.
▶ 1:18:38Sen. Blackburn: Codifying this would simplify that process.
▶ 1:18:43Mr. Perez: Yes, ma'am --Mr.
▶ 1:18:48Allen: Yes, ma'am.
▶ 1:18:49Sen. Blackburn: I had an opportunity to do an ice right along and nashville to see how the process is working and also to talk with our ice agents in nashville. I think there is a lot of concern about the increase of assaults, a 500% increase in the last few weeks.
▶ 1:19:11Sen. Blackburn: One of the things we have done in response to the mayor of nashville and his office that docs are federal law enforcement officers, ice, and hsi as they were conducting some of these raids, they have apprehended 554 illegal aliens, criminal illegal aliens since may. So it has been quite an effort.
▶ 1:19:39Sen. Blackburn: But we did legislation that would make it illegal to dox federal law enforcement officers and immigration officials. We are surprised that that had not been done so we have legislation with committee that would do that.
▶ 1:20:02Sen. Blackburn: I wish that I could hear very quickly from each of you just 10 seconds or so about how these efforts including our ice officers jeopardizes safety.
▶ 1:20:26Mr. Stevens: Thank you, ma'am. I have experienced that with one of my employees. He was photographed, it was put out on instagram, and the individual indicated the community needs to remind him where he came from and where he was. For me, that is extremely important. My employee felt such threat from that that he completely changed his appearance to protect his family when he is off duty and out in the
▶ 1:20:53Community Within Mr. Perez: Yes, that would be significant to prevent that. Docs thing proposes vulnerability. An agent was being threatened with photos, problems exacerbated by technology to identify somebody through photo but in this and didn't, the agent was being threatened, but also with pictures of his children to back down on the operations they are going.
▶ 1:21:28Community Within Mr. Perez: It is a significant threat we are concerned with.
▶ 1:21:30Sen. Blackburn: Mr. allen, anything to add?
▶ 1:21:34Mr. Allen: I would say doxing is an attempt to keep law enforcement from doing their jobs through the threat of exposure and violence and putting people's families out for public scrutiny.
▶ 1:21:47Sen. Blackburn: Thank, yield back.
▶ 1:21:49Chair Grassley: Senator? >> thank, Mr. chairman. We know there is a significant flow of firearms from the united states into the hands of these cartels and I'm glad that senator durbin nasty while the question of what we can do to stop this flow and most of which are coming from four states, arizona, california, new mexico, and texas.
▶ 1:22:17Chair Grassley: You all testified that while you really don't know what to do, you kicked it off to the atf, that they are supposed to be trying to stop the flow, the significant flow of firearms from our country to mexico. That is your testimony, right? It is not your responsibility, it remains with atf to figure this out? Anybody? >> yes.
▶ 1:22:45Sen. Hirono: You have stated that is not your responsibility. >> no, ma'am, that is not my testimony.
▶ 1:22:51Sen. Hirono: Would you like to elaborate? >> yes, ma'am.
▶ 1:22:55Sen. Hirono: Mr. stevens? Briefly.
▶ 1:22:59Mr. Stevens: For us, we do see that is one of our responsibilities and we are going to do that through the hs ts. As it relates to that, we are using our unique authorities to be able to work that together so we are working hand-in-hand with them on operations as it relates to outbound weapons.
▶ 1:23:19Sen. Hirono: Can you provide information to the committee the success you are having in stopping the significant flow of firearms and who are the people in our country who are selling these firearms? I want to move on to the facts that you will work for agencies where we know that resources have been diverted from each of your agencies to engage in
▶ 1:23:50Sen. Hirono: Immigration enforcement. President trump has made it clear that immigration enforcement is a priority for his regime and to that end, the fbi has reportedly been prioritizing immigration with some agencies being told to dedicate one third of their time to immigration enforcement.
▶ 1:24:10Sen. Hirono: , so I would like to ask each of you, what percentage of dea personnel are either through diversion of hours of time that they are spending two bodies who are spending time >> we don't really quantified by percentages of people.
▶ 1:24:41Sen. Hirono: Dea's involvement is focused and narrow in scope and we are primarily focused on the narcotics trafficking.
▶ 1:24:49Sen. Hirono: So you don't know what percentage of dea is going to immigration enforcement? Mr.
▶ 1:24:57Allen: I can only speak to the los angeles field division.
▶ 1:25:01Sen. Hirono: I'm having some difficulty hearing you?
▶ 1:25:05Mr. Allen: I can't speak to that.
▶ 1:25:07Sen. Hirono: Thank you. The information I have is 25% of dea is going to immigration reform. Mr. stevens, what percent of hsi is going to immigration enforcement?
▶ 1:25:22Mr. Allen: Thank you for your question, I can't speak for the entirety of a hatch at -- hsi. Our field office, each one is unique and has its own major threats, so the stats have autonomy to divert those resources to necessarily address major threats. I have human smuggling occurring in my office is daily so I have a significant number of resources dedicated to what would be referred to as immigration enforcement.
▶ 1:25:50Sen. Hirono: What percentage? What constitutes significant to you?
▶ 1:25:54Mr. Allen: I have approximately four groups working human smuggling investigations, which would be 28 people in my office.
▶ 1:26:02Sen. Hirono: The information I have is that it is unclear as to what percentage if we can talk about it in those terms. It would be helpful for us to know what resources are happening toward immigration. As opposed to law enforcement and drug enforcement that you are engaged in.
▶ 1:26:29Sen. Hirono: Scores of agents have been reassigned, literally reassigned to immigration reform. Fbi, what percentage, Mr. perez?
▶ 1:26:40Mr. Perez: I don't have an exact percentage but over the last several months we have been supporting dhs, the number ebbs and flows from smaller to surging a time or two. The success of what we are doing, we have identified close to 800 predicated fbi subjects and have been able to leverage that tool or partnership to disrupt terrorists, spies.
▶ 1:27:07Sen. Hirono: Excuse me I'm running out of time. These are important questions for us to know because you all have your mission. The information I have is that with regard to the fbi, 45% of agents and 25 large field offices are working immigration full-time. 45%.
▶ 1:27:32Sen. Hirono: And as for the atf, 80% are working on immigration enforcement at least part of the time, so this is significant diversion of resources to immigration reform as opposed to the stuff you are supposed to be doing. Thank you so much.
▶ 1:27:48Chair Grassley: Senator? >> to follow up with that, I hope you do more deportations, I hope you hope -- I hope you help find more criminals and we send them back to their home country or something else. I want to address something here. Thank you for holding the hearing.
▶ 1:28:08Chair Grassley: I've listen for six months to democrats on this committee for any president trump nominee that comes here grilling them about whether or not they are going to follow the law, whether or not they are going to abide by court orders. And through a thousand different ways to ask the same question, they give the appropriate answer. President trump by the way in his first term and now in his second term has abided by every single court order.
▶ 1:28:40Chair Grassley: This newest fake constitutional crisis and we are onto another one today about article two powers this weekend. There is a new fake constitutional crisis from the democrats every single week. On this one, it is worth pointing out what happened yesterday. What happened yesterday, a radical, liberal, progressive, leftist judge, brian murphy, who was confirmed in the lame-duck session when joe biden,
▶ 1:29:11Chair Grassley: President auto pen, may not even have known he was appointing this person, approved by the democrats in the senate, is now refusing, refusing to obey a supreme court order for the deportation of seven criminal aliens. Let's just do a little bit of tale of the tape.
▶ 1:29:34Chair Grassley: One of these people is a convicted arsonist, another is an armed robber, another was a murderer of an elderly woman, two are murderers, one as a child rapist and another is a rapist of a person with special needs. These are the people the democrats spend their time defending.
▶ 1:29:56Chair Grassley: And now we have a judge through an active daryn wright say insurrection which is a word thrown around here all the time is refusing to abide by the supreme court ruling when you held up the deportations, you are wrong. We are ordering you to allow these deportations. This judge, brian murphy decided to cite the dissent, the dissenting opinion and say, you know what, I'm going to give the supreme court the middle finger. I don't want to do it.
▶ 1:30:26Chair Grassley: For all of the nonsense I've heard on this committee about every judge, every nominee including pam bondi, their righteous indignation to act like they have the moral high ground on a port orders and the rule of law, it is all a lie, and the mask has come off because brian murphy has shown with this is really all about. The democrats believe in that but only when it suits them.
▶ 1:30:58Chair Grassley: This issue of illegal immigration, I can't actually believe they are doing it. I can't actually believe this 80/20 issue. The american people want to meet mass migration with deportations period. Their willingness to allow assaults on law enforcement officers who are doing their jobs is insane.
▶ 1:31:19Chair Grassley: What you will not hear, you have heard some democrats disavow the violence, but you will never hear anyone of them say, you know what, we need to take a step back and let ice do their jobs. Because they don't really want ice to do their jobs.
▶ 1:31:36Chair Grassley: They are totally fine with a bunch of leftist radicals who invaded the white house with president auto pen, they can't believe their luck, they were writing white papers about open borders and throwing our borders open to 15 million here living illegally. When a president comes in campaigning on the idea that he would deport these seven people including an arsonist, a rapist, a murderer of elderly people, of people with disabilities, that is the redline.
▶ 1:32:07Chair Grassley: And you have a judge willing to back them up. So this is outrageous and I don't think it is going to last for very long, but I applaud you for what you do every day, you don't get a lot of thanks. You are put in an impossible position and I've seen what has been going on in california, it is ridiculous. If you are here illegally, you don't have a right to be here illegally. And of story.
▶ 1:32:40Chair Grassley: You can be deported somewhere else. The supreme court affirmed that and now we have a road, liberal, leftist judge who doesn't want to abide by it. I don't want to hear any democrat who voted for this guy by the way ask a republican nominee if they are going to abide by court orders. Who they voted for isn't doing it. You want to talk about a real constitutional crisis? There it is. That's it. Thank you, Mr. chairman.
▶ 1:33:08Chair Grassley: Senator whitehouse.
▶ 1:33:13Senator Whitehouse: Thank you very much, all of you. Thank you for your service in the work of defending the country from the danger of the international narcotics cartels. Is there anyone here, do any of you disagree that the business model for the cartels is that they send product here, they
▶ 1:33:43Senator Whitehouse: Sell it, they get money and they bring money back? Pretty fair? Yes. That is the way the business of drug distribution works.
▶ 1:33:59Senator Whitehouse: Does anybody disagree that there is an international system for hiding those illicit proceeds, the money that comes back, that those funds get secret it away in locations where they are hard for law enforcement to track for instance? Yes, yes, yes?
▶ 1:34:29Senator Whitehouse: Let the record reflect. Yes because that is really what is happening out there. In the narcotics committee, which I chaired, which senator grassley has been heavily involved with, we have had testimony with respect to the focus of much of our enforcement
▶ 1:35:00Senator Whitehouse: Activity. We tend to focus more on of product distribution side rather than the money being stashed side. Do any of you disagree with that? Is there room for improvement in our pursuit of the money flows of the cartels back to the havens where they hide it?
▶ 1:35:28Senator Whitehouse: Yes, yes, yes, room for room and. Just by the way, I'm as guilty as anyone. I was a U.S. attorney, full criminal jurisdiction in rhode island. I have done the cases. I have done the press conferences, I have done all of that.
▶ 1:35:56Senator Whitehouse: But the more I learn about this market, the more I see we need to drill into the financial underworld that supports the cartels. While we are at it, crooked oligarchs, clipped a craft robbed their country, criminals involved in international child trafficking, smugglers.
▶ 1:36:19Senator Whitehouse: Anybody who is up to people and making boatloads of money someplace and now that market is robust enough that it will take all comers and we need to be much more aggressive, in that context, do drug smugglers and traffickers use american shell corporations to hide assets and activities?
▶ 1:36:47Senator Whitehouse: >> yes, and my experience, they do, amongst many other techniques. Trade based money laundering, capital flight out of china, storefronts, things of that nature. The dea has taken an aggressive stance against that.
▶ 1:37:19Senator Whitehouse: They are using those businesses to launder money.
▶ 1:37:20Sen. Whitehouse: Yes and I really appreciate. We have had good hearings with dea about understanding the need to up the enforcement against the financial side of the business -- I'm eager to support you in doing more of that. I will make two points as I close.
▶ 1:37:49Sen. Whitehouse: The current treasury regulations for implementing the current transparency act
▶ 1:41:29Sen. Whitehouse: You know declared them foreign terrorist organizations. Pleading that it would bring more resources to bear, more law enforcement agencies in and it fell on deaf ears. On how many hearings we had in this committee over the last four years under president biden?
▶ 1:42:04Sen. Whitehouse: Zero. I want to thank you, as many politicians and leaders and states around this nation under my law enforcement, tried to defund them, encourage attacks on law enforcement right now as they are trying to do their jobs.
▶ 1:42:25Sen. Whitehouse: You stand bravely and strongly on that thin blue line because they know what it means to be a free people under a rule of law and that is that you need to men and women willing to take the criticism and the attacks to do their job and enforce the rule of law and the fact that you three and so many like you proudly took the oath and wore a badge for so many years, putting your safety behind others, like myself and my family, I want to proudly make it a priority to
▶ 1:42:55Sen. Whitehouse: Say thank you. Everyone up here should publicly say thank you and to every law enforcement officer out there right now especially through the last four years as resident eitan broke down the border and unleashed drugs, cartel members, those who had barely been vetted into our communities and you know who held that line, who showed up every single day and put on a bullet-proof vest to protect us?
▶ 1:43:22Sen. Whitehouse: In the face of that danger? Law enforcement. They stood on the thin line between chaos and order, good and evil for us and in a broader sense for this country and what it means to live as a free people under a rule of law, so publicly and proudly, I say thank you and I want to ask, what do you need to protect america and this nation and our
▶ 1:43:55Sen. Whitehouse: People first and foremost? The last person to have that job abdicated that responsibility to an auto pen. So we need to say not how can we first help other countries, how can we help other nations, how can we first help america? We know from the time president trump was in office until biden, those on the foreign terrorist watch list that were let in went up 2500%.
▶ 1:44:21Sen. Whitehouse: What can we do to protect america first and foremost and give you to do your jobs?
▶ 1:44:27Mr. Perez: Can you --chair
▶ 1:44:29Grassley: Can you give short answers please?
▶ 1:44:32Mr. Perez: I would say the number one challenge for us on the resource peace, human resources are an issue, but a continued focus on ensuring we have the best technology available, the best equipment, the best resources as an agency and government to combat all types of threats, whether terrorism or cartels, and we are utilizing the most effective technology to be more efficient fighting crime.
▶ 1:44:56Sen. Moody: Thank, Mr. chairman.
▶ 1:44:59Chair Grassley: Are you done?
▶ 1:45:00Sen. Moody: I'm never done, but since time is out, I will be done. >> thank you, Mr. chairman. I too think all three of our witnesses for your service and for your participation here today. I have been sitting here for a few minutes and observing from my office as well. I know there are a lot of passion and comments that have been shared on both sides of the dais here.
▶ 1:45:31Sen. Moody: I will try to stay as focused as I can on policy and to be driven by some key data points. That are helpful for this discussion. I want to begin by recognizing and tell me if you disagree, mexican cartels rely heavily on firearms, which we understand are trafficked from the united states, including military grade weapons like sniper rifles.
▶ 1:46:01Sen. Moody: While mexico has stricter gun laws on the books, our intelligence tells us it is U.S.-based straw purchasers and rogue dealers who play a significant role in arming transnational corporations. According to atf up to 500,000 guns are trafficked to mexico each year, undermining U.S.
▶ 1:46:29Sen. Moody: And mexican law enforcement efforts. I associate myself with the question and issue that senator durbin raised earlier about what role will you play with that?
▶ 1:46:55Sen. Moody: What role do unlicensed sellers, gun shows play to cartels and how have they adapted panoramic approach?
▶ 1:47:12Mr. Stevens: As it relates to gun shows and gun shops, that would be distraught purchasing piece which atf is the primary lead on. We work with them hand-in-hand. You guys probably get tired of hearing about the homeland security taskforces, but it is a great concept because we are not just collaborating, we are located and co-mingled to work together and we are talking every single day greater than I've ever done in my 32 plus years.
▶ 1:47:44Mr. Stevens: We are working with the atf to ensure that if they have a straw purchaser, that they are working with us. To make sure the weapons are not getting into the cartels.
▶ 1:48:04Sen. Padilla: I want to make sure I'm answer -- hearing you clearly. Coordination is great. Are you suggesting that because of the new coordination that they are no longer a challenge or concern?
▶ 1:48:27Mr. Stevens: They absolutely remain a concern.
▶ 1:48:39Sen. Padilla: What new strategies are being adopted particularly through this newfound coordination to help address those and what would you do to tackle online marketplaces and gun shows?
▶ 1:48:56Mr. Stevens: I think the way the homeland security taskforces going to work out of el paso, it is co-led by the guy and myself. We are going to have debriefings or briefings from our intelligence teams and we are going to have a greater understanding of what each agency is seeing as it relates to the cartels, the major threats and the same with weapons trafficking.
▶ 1:49:24Mr. Stevens: We are going to have a greater understanding as a whole and be able to focus as a whole of government to do that.
▶ 1:49:32Sen. Padilla: I would love to hear what recommendations or policies, from this. A lot of these taskforces and operations are not new. I'm hoping that some of the improvements come sooner rather than later. I have one more question.
▶ 1:49:52Sen. Padilla: How does the fbi coordinate with other federal and foreign partners to trace the firearms recovered from cartel-related crimes and as a follow-up to that, what new tools would improve your ability to hold traffickers accountable?
▶ 1:50:09Mr. Perez: Thank you for the question. On firearms tracing south of the border and domestically, that is atf's primary role. The recipe for success, talking about homeland security taskforces in located working these cases side-by-side. I go back to my earlier comments. We are not focused on one particular violation.
▶ 1:50:38Mr. Perez: We are focusing on these groups themselves and all types of crimes they commit. Through our collective investigations this year alone we have seized close to $3000, close to 4000. Over 2200 along our southwest border offices.
▶ 1:50:58Mr. Perez: As we better investigate these cartels and groups, also in firearms, we are going to encounter firearms trafficking and encounter how they move them and is complicit in that environment.
▶ 1:51:12Sen. Padilla: Mr. chairman, I know my time is up. Only because I've heard so many of my colleagues raise the issue of the current immigration enforcement actions particularly in los angeles, I'm hoping you've seen reporting of cato institute research and findings that more than 90% of those who have been detained since october, since the beginning of the fiscal year, do not have serious criminal convictions.
▶ 1:51:41Sen. Padilla: If this was indeed truly solely targeting dangerous, violent criminals, there would be no disagreement, there would be no debates. But what we see in practice is much different than that. So to the extent you are focusing on the dangerous, violent criminals with that criminal history and/or convictions, we applaud you. Enforcement beyond that, I think that is where there is subject matter for discussion.
▶ 1:52:08Chair Grassley: Before senator graham, I want to put in the record without opposition a letter from the president of the federal law enforcement officers association speaking about some of the trouble that law enforcement people have. Senator hawley is going to chair the committee. Senator graham, you go ahead.
▶ 1:52:36Senator Graham: I appreciate what you do for your country and all those like you out there. I want to associate myself with senator whitehouse. I think we need to get to the root cause of funding and the shadow organizations that benefit drug cartels. You would agree with that, that money laundering is real?
▶ 1:52:59Senator Graham: Senator padilla's concerns about arms coming from america into mexico arming the cartels, that is very real. I would like to do something about that. But my question is do we have a willing partner in mexico? The question for me is is the government of mexico in charge of their country or is that the cartels?
▶ 1:53:28Senator Graham: When it comes to drugs and human trafficking. What would you say?
▶ 1:53:33Mr. Stevens: Thank you for your question, sir. Currently mexico is being a good partner with us. They have increased our transnational unit taking investigations.
▶ 1:53:51Mr. Stevens: Why are the cart --
▶ 1:53:54Senator Graham: Why are the cartels so strong in mexico? Are there parts of mexico that they control?
▶ 1:54:01Mr. Perez: I will go back to my comments, there is corruption that is prevalent.
▶ 1:54:06Sen. Graham: How much of mexico is under cartel control?
▶ 1:54:10Mr. Perez: I don't have any numbers, sir.
▶ 1:54:15Sen. Graham: 10% of the country? 20%?
▶ 1:54:18Mr. Perez: I can't comment on that.
▶ 1:54:21Sen. Graham: Can you get back with me on that?
▶ 1:54:23Mr. Perez: Yes, sir.
▶ 1:54:25Sen. Graham: Mr. alan, why is it such a problem in mexico. Is the government serious about dealing with cartel problems in mexico?
▶ 1:54:35Mr. Allen: Historically that has been one of the biggest obstacles we have faced.
▶ 1:54:40Sen. Graham: Has it changed dramatically?
▶ 1:54:43Mr. Allen: We have optimism it is changing.
▶ 1:54:45Sen. Graham: That's good, get back with me. Do we know whether fentanyl labs operate today? >> I don't have that information with me.
▶ 1:54:58Sen. Graham: Is it fairly well-known where some of these labs are?
▶ 1:55:02Mr. Allen: We routinely receive information.
▶ 1:55:06Sen. Graham: Is that right, Mr. stevens?
▶ 1:55:10Mr. Stevens: Yes, sir. I know we have some information as I indicated previously. We had one of the largest seizures in mexico's history of pressed fentanyl related to information we provided to them.
▶ 1:55:29Sen. Graham: You provided it to them.
▶ 1:55:31Mr. Stevens: That's correct.
▶ 1:55:33Sen. Graham: Mr. perez, has there ever been a joint operation between the united states and mexico where we partnered to go into mexico to take down a drug lab?
▶ 1:55:44Mr. Perez: Yes, I would say we have partnered with them more on the intelligence piece.
▶ 1:55:49Sen. Graham: No, I'm going -- talking about taking the thing down.
▶ 1:55:54Mr. Perez: I'm not familiar with any.
▶ 1:56:00Sen. Graham: How many year a people die from fentanyl poisoning coming from mexico, Mr. allen?
▶ 1:56:08Mr. Allen: Fentanyl poisoning itself, tough to say. The number in 2023 from drug overdoses and drug poisonings was about 107,000, 70% of that approximately is related to fentanyl.
▶ 1:56:21Sen. Graham: That is a lot of people?
▶ 1:56:23Mr. Allen: That is more than vietnam, afghanistan, and iraq combined.
▶ 1:56:28Sen. Graham: Hear what the gentleman said, it is more than those wars combined. President trump talked about using military force against drug cartels. Do you think that would help?
▶ 1:56:41Mr. Allen: Sir, I can only speak from my position as special agent in charge of l.a., those are made -- decisions made at the department of defense.
▶ 1:56:53Sen. Graham: He has openly talked about taking out drug cartels and labs using military force and I would encourage him to keep thinking that way. Generally speaking, is mexico the problem or the solution when it comes to drug cartels?
▶ 1:57:10Mr. Allen: I think they are in a unique position to be both.
▶ 1:57:14Sen. Graham: Generally speaking?
▶ 1:57:16Mr. Allen: Generally speaking, that is where it comes from, sir.
▶ 1:57:21Mr. Stevens: I agree with the same comment. I think they are uniquely positioned to be both.
▶ 1:57:27Sen. Graham: But are they more the problem or the solution?
▶ 1:57:31Mr. Stevens: I think they can be both.
▶ 1:57:33Sen. Graham: That is not the question, you've got to pick. [laughter] do you know?
▶ 1:57:40Mr. Stevens: I would say right now they are a solution for us.
▶ 1:57:45Sen. Graham: Mr. perez?
▶ 1:57:47Mr. Perez: I agree with that and their cooperation is the solution.
▶ 1:57:52Sen. Graham: You think the mexican government is providing solutions to the cartel problems.
▶ 1:57:59Mr. Perez: They are providing solutions, yes, sir. They could provide much more capacity. Members of mexican law enforcement have died serving action on behalf of the united states.
▶ 1:58:12Sen. Graham: I appreciate that. We had testimony a month ago quite the opposite. It seems to me they are mostly the problem, not the solution, because there are so many of these organizations operating out in the open. They literally have control of large parts of mexico. I'm glad to hear they are doing better. But from my point of view they are not doing enough. Senator schiff.
▶ 1:58:36Senator Schiff: Thank you, Mr. chairman. Thank you for being here and for your public service, greatly appreciated. I served for almost six years in the U.S. attorney's office in los angeles and worked closely when -- with the dea when I did, worked on bringing to justice one of the people involved in the kidnap, torture, murder of henrique cammarano.
▶ 1:59:01Senator Schiff: I was interested to see the video at the outset of this hearing and thrilled when I learned of the extradition to the united states. Mr. allen, I want to ask you a couple of questions about your work in l.a. I'm grateful for all the efforts to stop the scourge of fentanyl and the smuggling in this country which has killed so many americans.
▶ 1:59:26Senator Schiff: I want to see that focus continue and I don't want these questions to be perceived as a criticism of you, you are following instructions from head orders, but I'm in sir and and for the reason senator padilla alluded to, that to the degree your resources are diverted to immigration operations against nonviolent immigrants, against farmworkers or garment workers or restaurant workers, I'm worried about diverting the focus away from interdicting fentanyl and going after these cartels.
▶ 1:59:57Senator Schiff: Let me ask you, how many field agents do you have in l.a.?
▶ 2:00:00Mr. Allen: Approximately 200.
▶ 2:00:03Sen. Schiff: Of the 200 field agents in l.a., how many of them have in the last 150 days worked on immigration enforcement?
▶ 2:00:13Mr. Allen: That is a tough question to answer because it is such an ebb and flow. It is not like we have people permanently assigned to just work immigration enforcement, because as I said before we are primarily focused on continuing our work and drug enforcement and the crossovers fall into place with illegal immigration.
▶ 2:00:35Sen. Schiff: Give us your best ballpark? A third of them assigned temporarily or half or more? Is everyone participating to some degree?
▶ 2:00:44Mr. Allen: At any one time, that is a decent estimate.
▶ 2:00:48Sen. Schiff: Which estimate? 30%?
▶ 2:00:51Mr. Allen: At any one time, at any given time, not necessarily at one time. There could be 5% or 2%, it depends on what is going on.
▶ 2:01:04Sen. Schiff: But give us some sense. I want to know what kind of call on your resources this is.
▶ 2:01:10Mr. Allen: I can give you a couple of good examples of things we have done recently.
▶ 2:01:14Sen. Schiff: I'm not looking for examples, I'm looking at how much your workforce is being diverted to immigration enforcement and away from things previously.
▶ 2:01:25Mr. Allen: Immigration enforcement only is novel we focus on.
▶ 2:01:31Sen. Schiff: How many of the two hundred agents work on immigration enforcement? Have all 200 been called away at some point to work on immigration enforcement?
▶ 2:01:41Mr. Allen: No, sir.
▶ 2:01:43Sen. Schiff: How many have?
▶ 2:01:45Mr. Allen: I really would have a hard time giving you an answer on that.
▶ 2:01:49Sen. Schiff: You are running the office. You are having to make decisions about allocating resources. And you've got investigations to pursue that were ongoing at the time of the administration and you are having to take agents off one thing to put them on another. I know how strapped the resources were before this administration.
▶ 2:02:10Sen. Schiff: You may not want to be precise here, but we need some sense of what kind of resources are being diverted here. So what percentage of your agents would you say, what is your best estimate of a percentage who have been called to do immigration enforcement? What percentage of the 200 have at some point in the last 150 days been called away to work on an immigration enforcement action?
▶ 2:02:37Mr. Allen: The reason I'm having a hard time answering the question is because we worked immigration enforcement as it relates to narcotics and -- enforcement so the two are combined. That is what our agents are doing.
▶ 2:02:50Sen. Schiff: You know what I'm asking you. With all due respect, you know what I'm asking you. What percentage of your agents have been called away to work on immigration raids that is the departure what you were doing before 150 days ago?
▶ 2:03:07Mr. Allen: Sir, my people do not serve immigration raids.
▶ 2:03:11Sen. Schiff: What percentage have worked on immigration enforcement, can you give me an estimate?
▶ 2:03:17Mr. Allen: It is not just immigration enforcement.
▶ 2:03:20Sen. Schiff: You clearly don't want to answer the question and this is part of the problem. And that is we are devoting -- devoting by some estimates and the fbi 45% of our agents in major cities, a public report, to immigration enforcement actions that are 90% of which going after nonviolent offenders. You are taking them away from somewhere.
▶ 2:03:46Sen. Schiff: You are taking them away from somewhere and you don't want to tell us how much you are taking them away or how much work you are doing on this and how much interdiction they might be pulled away from, but we need answers. Mr. perez, are the estimates accurate that 45% of agents in major cities are being called on to work on immigration now?
▶ 2:04:07Mr. Perez: No, I would say that is not entirely accurate and that may be comes from some data --
▶ 2:04:13Sen. Schiff: So what is the accurate percentage?
▶ 2:04:16Mr. Perez: I would say it ebbs and flows and could be between 5% and 10%, but that has been a temporary surge. We are surging now.
▶ 2:04:28Sen. Schiff: And the 5% or 10% who have been called away to work on immigration, what have they worked on previously? Mr.
▶ 2:04:37Perez: It depends, we have a surge in terms of terrorism or cyber cartels. I would say that is common in the hundred plus years in the fbi. We realign resources with potential threats.
▶ 2:04:54Sen. Schiff: I don't think there is anything, about the scope of what you were being called upon to do, I know my time has expired and I gild the microphone to senator britt.
▶ 2:05:06Senator Britt: On the note we were just talking about, the stuff that I have read is that the seizures of drugs have gone up particularly a ports of entry since we have seen a more secure border. Is that correct in what you have seen? That we have had an opportunity to seize more drugs at the ports of entry?
▶ 2:05:27Senator Britt: >> speaking on behalf of el paso , we are seeing increased cases as it relates to cocaine and increased seizures in cocaine.
▶ 2:05:38Senator Britt: I had an opportunity to interact with some agents over the weekend, just top, top, top shelf, first class. To all of you and the men and women who work with you, thank you for the work you do. It is critically important we continue to focus on them. We know fentanyl deaths, overdose, poisoning is the leading cause of death between 18 and 45 in our country.
▶ 2:06:08Senator Britt: We have seen the previous administration to kick the can down the road and this administration is taking it serious, making sure we are using every tool to keep americans safe. When we look at the nexus between moving fentanyl and drug cartels and gang members, I would love to know from any of you how many drug cartels, gang members, the number so to speak, those agents working with them, do we have in the interior of the united states by your estimate?
▶ 2:06:39Senator Britt: Anybody.
▶ 2:06:39Mr. Perez: Individual groups?
▶ 2:06:42Sen. Britt: Yes, number of people associated with those groups, either drug cartels, gang members.
▶ 2:06:50Mr. Perez: Well into the thousands, ma'am.
▶ 2:06:52Sen. Britt: Wow, wow, wow, wow. When you are looking at the nexus and how this works, how cartels utilize gangs to move the product around the country, can one of you tell me a little bit about process wise how they do that?
▶ 2:07:08Mr. Allen: In my experience, the cartels, specifically the mexican drug cartels, often use the street gangs in the united states as their foot soldiers to carry out some of their dirty work, retail distribution, things of that nature. I don't mean to sound like a broken record and keep going back to homeland security task forces, but one of the things that is great about that as it allows every agency to bring their expertise to the table.
▶ 2:07:34Sen. Britt: Good.
▶ 2:07:37Mr. Allen: Hsi with the ports and chemicals, dea with our expertise in cartels. We bring it all together to fight this fight.
▶ 2:07:46Sen. Britt: And we really appreciate you all working together utilizing your strengths to make sure we are putting the american people in a safer and stronger position and I commend president trump and his administration for making this a priority. When you were looking at the supply chain of how this works, we talked a lot about china's role in these fentanyl precursors and coming here.
▶ 2:08:11Sen. Britt: Is there anything we need to be doing to be more disruptive to that supply chain?
▶ 2:08:18Mr. Stevens: In el paso, we have one of our agency initiatives, operation chain breaker, and we are looking at pill presses. The demented miss act is hurting us right now. Anything under that 800 dollars threshold is not being custom -- subject to search which allows parts and pieces to come in.
▶ 2:08:47Mr. Stevens: We are seeing significant numbers of pill presses being brought here. We have seen 800 labs set up here producing fennel.
▶ 2:09:00Sen. Britt: Wow. Everything with china has been documented. Dea mentioned india recently. Are there other countries are bad actors we need to put into focus?
▶ 2:09:10Mr. Allen: India is the only player that comes up on the radar besides china, but let me be clear, on a much, much smaller scale.
▶ 2:09:22Sen. Britt: As we look at what is happening across the country right now, what do you think the next fentanyl may be? Are you seeing something bubbling up or has the unfortunate opportunity to catch hold in the united states and if so, what can we be doing to be vigilant to be vigilant toward that off?
▶ 2:09:41Mr. Allen: I think one of the emerging threats is not necessarily a new drug itself, but the combination of drugs. For instance, people have been taking xylazine, which is like a veterinary drug, and mixing that with fentanyl. Why that is so dangerous is it basically cancels out the effects of narcan. Because it is not a synthetic opioid.
▶ 2:10:07Mr. Allen: We have had some pretty good come of the public has pretty good success with narcan in reviving people and bringing them back from the brink of overdose. When you put outside things into it as an adult to rent to cut it in the name of profit, it cancels that out so it is very dangerous.
▶ 2:10:22Sen. Britt: Absolutely. What should we be doing to better target the financial networks that aid and abet the cartels including their operation and presence in the united states?
▶ 2:10:39Mr. Perez: I would ask for continued accountability from any type of financial institutions that can be exploited, so additional support to law enforcement to abide by lawful process and things that we need for clarity.
▶ 2:10:49Sen. Britt: Thank you and thank you again for what you do. >> on behalf of the chair, senator tillis, thank you, senator tillis. We had to do a chair transition. I'm not going to cover most of what has been covered in the hearing. I think my colleagues have done a good job. I do have one question that relates more to marijuana trade.
▶ 2:11:18Sen. Britt: I want to go down this line of questioning. First, what insight do you have that the cartels still grow and distribute illicit input that are getting into the state "legal" supply chains. Do you have any until?
▶ 2:11:35Mr. Allen: The cartels are still very much involved.
▶ 2:11:38Sen. Tillis: And by involved by a lot. But it is a little bit different now because it is not necessarily dealing one of the street. It is having inputs going into what become legally available products in the states that have legalized marijuana or cannabis extracts. Mr. perez?
▶ 2:11:56Mr. Perez: Just to add to that, for cartels, we have seen timeshare fraud cases. Just because marijuana is legal in certain places, cartels will continue to find ways to make money regardless of the environment.
▶ 2:12:10Sen. Tillis: Yes, it seems to me, I've tried to keep pounding the table and saying, folks, those of us who were not necessarily eager to legalize pot have lost. The majority of states have legalized it at some level or other. I don't have a whole emotions about it personally, but for the fact that I don't think we are regulating improperly and I do believe it has just come another distribution channel for the tells -- for the cartels.
▶ 2:12:41Sen. Tillis: I want to talk about something closer to home. I need some help from dea to answer this question. How does a pot growing facility in north carolina that is not connected to the boundary of the eastern band of the cherokee somehow get produced here, get grown here, the extracts are created here and then magically find itself through a patch of land that is not a boundary and then find itself for sale?
▶ 2:13:12Sen. Tillis: How can I get an answer from the dea on how this magical process occurs where something is transported in an illegal area and not viewed as an illegal activity?
▶ 2:13:24Mr. Allen: Sir, what I can comment on is what we recently experienced in los angeles and I apologize, I'm not as familiar.
▶ 2:13:32Sen. Tillis: I wouldn't expect you to be briefed up on this. [laughter]
▶ 2:13:36Mr. Allen: What I can comment on is we had a similar instance in the los angeles area last week where people rated and almost 800 acre, if you can imagine that --
▶ 2:13:49Sen. Tillis: Growing operation? Was it legal?
▶ 2:13:53Mr. Allen: No sir and it is on tribal land as well. As a result of that operation, we uncovered, there were 47 chinese nationals on the property who were here illegally, we believe as a result of human smuggling, because many of them were locked into their temporary living quarters and locked into their working areas. It touches a lot of things.
▶ 2:14:17Sen. Tillis: Well, I need some help because the boundary -- north carolina for those of you who don't know, the boundary where the eastern band of the cherokee are, it is at the very end of the state. South carolina, georgia, tennessee, north carolina all converge. They have a right to sell marijuana, I guess, as a recognized tribe, but they are growing in one place and selling in another place.
▶ 2:14:51Sen. Tillis: It is a casino operation and destinations. You would have to be out of your mind to say they are not going to dispute -- dispose of whatever they have. People have to take responsibility for transporting things they are not supposed to illegally, but they are growing it in a patch of land not connected to the boundary and I've got to believe that is an illegal transport. At what point does this become trafficking?
▶ 2:15:23Sen. Tillis: It is something I will be reaching out with the prior administrator. Just give me a definitive answer. I've yet to get an answer to it and I would like to get a crisp answer. The other thing I want to say. Tutti-frutti? Is that an adult targeted segment or does it feel like a little bit like you are attracting the younger audience for this sort of thing?
▶ 2:15:50Sen. Tillis: And then, maybe you are because the chief of the eastern band of the cherokee saying kids are testing positive for pop. The last thing I want to leave you with, we have got to get this thing under control. Pop is going to be legal in this country in virtually every other state, we can either figure out how to regulate it by putting a U.S.
▶ 2:16:16Sen. Tillis: Department of agriculture regimen and, fda, the same way we do with alcohol and tobacco or we are going to get way down the road without control of our inputs and the next thing the cartels are going to do is figure out in the race for potency, once they run out of how you can do this through the plan, they will figure out some way to make this more potent and deadly.
▶ 2:16:40Sen. Tillis: I feel very strongly we need to have a separate meeting about how to create a construct that states can opt into. Or this is getting out of control and this eastern band of the cherokee anomaly is one thing that happens when congress fails to act. On behalf of the chair, senator hawley.
▶ 2:17:00Sen. Hawley: Senator hawley. Thanks to the witnesses for being here. Thank you for the work you are doing. Fentanyl has been a major topic of discussion and rightfully so. It accounts for 70% of the drug overdose deaths in the united states and is the leading cause of death in individuals in missouri for those over 18 and we don't produce it in missouri. It comes by the truckload.
▶ 2:17:29Sen. Hawley: Every community in the state, every school in the state is awash in fentanyl. I'm concerned about the latest efforts of cartels to sell rainbow fentanyl across the border. I'm sure you are familiar with the phenomenon of rainbow fentanyl.
▶ 2:17:49Mr. Allen: Yes, generally familiar with it.
▶ 2:17:52Sen. Hawley: Is it safe to say that the mexican cartels are using rainbow fentanyl as a deliberate attempt to drive addiction among young people, among kids and young adults? >> yes, I would say they are using fentanyl in general regardless of who they are trying to addict.
▶ 2:18:09Sen. Hawley: Here is the next thing, we have the effort by the cartels to use rainbow fentanyl and they are selling it in ways other than the classic back alley deal. They are using social media apps in order to sell sentinel. Let's take a look at one example. This is from the big tech platform snapchat. Snapchat is one of the worst offenders here.
▶ 2:18:39Sen. Hawley: The platform features disappearing messages, anonymity, and has real-time mapping features that can allow drug traffickers to access clients and young people. Snaps are often accompanied by code words and emojis designed to evade law enforcement.
▶ 2:18:56Sen. Hawley: In february of this year, and mother sat where the three of you are sitting and testified, she lost a 19-year-old kid, lost him to a fentanyl overdose after he got fentanyl through a snap message.
▶ 2:19:11Sen. Hawley: She testified sitting where you are sitting that she went to snapchat, she alerted them to the kind of snaps they have got posted on their platform and she testified, this is a quote, "the first three things out of their mouth were number one, we have no idea this is happening in our platform, number two as parents you should have been monitoring your child better, charming, number three, you can't sue us because we are protected under section 230."
▶ 2:19:41Sen. Hawley: My question to the three of you is wouldn't it be a big help to your efforts and to our efforts as a country to stop the flow of fentanyl and other illegal drugs into this nation and from flowing into the hands of our kids if we shut down these platforms from selling and offering drugs and being a major platform for drug traffickers?
▶ 2:20:03Mr. Perez: Yes, I would go back to accountability from any institution facilitating this. I know our efforts focusing on darknet and opennet trafficking is significant.
▶ 2:20:15Sen. Hawley: Very good, I'm glad you use the word accountability. That is what we need. Right now, snapchat and every other big tech platform have exactly zero accountability. Zilch. This is on their platform. It is on their platform constantly. It is in volume and there is nothing any parent, and even them can do about it.
▶ 2:20:40Sen. Hawley: Just refer back to what this mother said, the snap ceo said, it is your fault, we don't have any idea about it. They know, by the way. If these guys can direct the most precision advertising to you using ai algorithms, you think they don't know there is this kind of advertising all over their platform? Then they said you can't sue us because we are protected under section 230.
▶ 2:21:05Sen. Hawley: I've said this time and again, it is time for this congress to take action to allow victims to hold accountable these companies when they put this kind of garbage on their platform. Victims out to be able to sue snapchat and any other big tech platform that traffics in this kind of illegal activity. And until congress changes the law to allow victims and parents to sue, I think this is going to continue to go on. One more example, Mr.
▶ 2:21:34Sen. Hawley: Stephen, I know you are the el paso division. Here is an example of a mexican cartel using a different social media app to try to hire american citizens to participate in human smuggling. This is the kind of thing going on in a snap, instagram, tiktok, where these cartels are recruiting american citizens to be smugglers, offering them pay, giving them instructions.
▶ 2:22:04Sen. Hawley: Once again, they are using the social media apps to do it. Let me ask you, have you encountered this? Have you seen the cartels trying to recruit americans to participate in smuggling operations?
▶ 2:22:15Mr. Stevens: Thank you for your question, yes, we have multiple cases involving human smuggling as well as drug smuggling where they use social media platforms to be able to recruit drivers.
▶ 2:22:26Mr. Perez: Would it be a help to you to be able to turn off this kind of illegal activity on these platforms, to reduce the supply of american drivers who are willing to participate in a human smuggling ring?
▶ 2:22:41Mr. Stevens: Yes, it would.
▶ 2:22:42Sen. Hawley: We need to do it and the way to do it is to hold the social media companies accountable, Mr. perez to use your word, to allow victims to sue social media companies for violating the law, for violating basic human decency, for lying constantly to their customers and the american people. I have introduced legislation that has passed this committee unanimously to allow victims of child pornography to sue platforms.
▶ 2:23:10Sen. Hawley: The next step is to allow victims of human trafficking, victims of this illegal trafficking in narcotics to sue the platforms. If we can do that, we can begin to make a dent in this tide, this title wave of fentanyl and other narcotics coming across our border and we can begin to hold these companies accountable. Thank you, Mr. chair.
▶ 2:23:29Sen. Tillis: On behalf of the chair, I want to thank our witnesses for participating in this hearing. Written questions can be part -- submitted until july 1 at 5:00 p.m. I will ask the witness is to answer and return the questions as quickly as possible. This hearing is adjourned. [captioning performed by the national captioning institute, which is responsible for its caption content and accuracy. Visit ncicap.org]