▶ 0:17:45Chair Grassley: Good morning, everybody. A few minutes ago, -- a few months ago, we held a hearing where we heard from state law enforcement officers about the challenges and risks that drones can pose when those drones are in the wrong hands.
▶ 0:18:08Chair Grassley: Today's witnesses are career federal government professionals who are instrumental in keeping our public officials, our borders, and our border communities safe. As drones use continues to proliferate, our witnesses' work grows more and more important. We although the federal government cannot be everywhere at once.
▶ 0:18:38Chair Grassley: This was made clear in our last hearing on this topic. As congress considers expanding counter drone authorities to appropriately train state and local law enforcement, the first step to expanding and enhancing counter drone authorities is to ensure that the federal currently in place are meaningfully extended.
▶ 0:19:09Chair Grassley: This is necessary so that our law enforcement agencies have a properdrones are not going anyw. And we should embrace the innovation that they bring, but as with any technology, they can be exploited by those who seek to do harm to others.
▶ 0:19:39Chair Grassley: Bad actors use drones to smuggle weapons and drugs across the border, spy on sensitive facilities, commit acts of terror, and a lot more.
▶ 0:19:55Chair Grassley: In 2018, most of us serving on this committee, including this senator, senator durbin, the ranking member, voted to grant advanced counter uas authorities to the department of justice and homeland security for public safety functions.
▶ 0:20:15Chair Grassley: These authorities have been extended temporarily eight times since they were originally signed into law in 2018, which is a testament to their importance.
▶ 0:20:29Chair Grassley: Congress must ensure that these authorities don't lapse and that our law enforcement agencies maintain the tools and resources to defend our communities from those who might use rapidly developing drone technologies to cause harm. These authorities should be employed by responsible professionals who are not afraid of oversight and accountability.
▶ 0:21:01Chair Grassley: While cartels and other criminal enterprises use drones for illegal purposes without restraint, the government's authority to mitigate them expires at the end of september. So it is our responsibility to ensure that what enforcement maintains the tools they need to interest the threats.
▶ 0:21:26Chair Grassley: In 2011, the fbi arrested a terrorist before he had a chance to fly explosive laden drones into the U.S. capitol. Also, we should not leave our crowded stadiums and communities vulnerable to the next terrorist who can purchase a drone online. I look forward to hearing from our witnesses today. Now it is ranking member durbin's turn.
▶ 0:21:50Sen. Durbin: Thank you, chairman grassley, for holding this hearing to highlight the need to better oppose the threat by unmanned drone systems. The conversations are more important than ever. However, I want to first note that while we have witnesses from the trump administration and they are welcome, this committee has yet to hear from the homeland security secretary noem on this issue and a broad array of other critical issues.
▶ 0:22:21Sen. Durbin: Secretary noem is overseeing an unprecedented campaign of mass deportations. She should enter for the indiscriminate -- she should answer for the interest when an arrests by mast officials and the arrests of veterans. Why do I bring this up to date? This administration is diverting law enforcement away from countering threats to our nation in order to participate in this mass deportation campaign.
▶ 0:22:52Sen. Durbin: Don't take it from me. Listen to what federal agents tell us. According to one "homeland security investigation supervisors have waived agents off new cases so they have more time to make immigration enforcement arrests." one veteran agent said, "no drug cases. No human trafficking. No child exploitation.
▶ 0:23:16Sen. Durbin: It is infuriating." instead, he said the department of homeland security "is arresting gardeners." as we will discuss today, there is real threat posed by hostile foreign nations my cartels, and other malign actors exploiting drone technology for espionage, cyber attacks, drug and weapons trafficking, so we need to hear from secretary noem about why she is shifting the agency of
▶ 0:23:47Sen. Durbin: The -- the focus of the agency she leads away from three threats in order to arrest immigrants with no criminal record or deep roots in the country. The faa report over one million drones are currently registered in the united states for a broad range of commercial and recreational activity from farming to photography to journalism.
▶ 0:24:10Sen. Durbin: Law enforcement and government agencies also use drones for search-and-rescue, disasters, surveillance of criminal activity, and even traffic enforcement. But like any technology, drones can also be dangerous. Drone operators can create hazards simply by flying in restricted areas, even if they do so by accident.
▶ 0:24:31Sen. Durbin: Criminals and foreign adversaries also use drones for cyber attacks, espionage, transportation of drugs, weapons, and other contraband, including into prisons and across our borders. As drone technology advances, the risk of bad actors causing serious harm increases. Drones can be rigged with firearms, explosives, even chemical, biological, nuclear weapons.
▶ 0:24:54Sen. Durbin: For example, if I am sitting at wrigley field in chicago during a ballgame with my grandkids and see a drone in the sky, I want to know the drone is safe and authorized to be there. Currently, the department of justice and homeland security are two of four federal agencies with drone authority. These authorities allow doj and dhs to detect, track, monitor, and sees drones -- seize drones.
▶ 0:25:25Sen. Durbin: The challenge we face is how to update these authorities to enable law enforcement to protect us from the various drone activity without endangering civilian air traffic, people, or property on the ground. And basically, they honor our first and fourth amendment. Addressing threats proposed by drones will require more carefully tailored authorities with strong safeguards. I hope today's hearing will be a step forward to reach a bipartisan, bicameral agreement.
▶ 0:25:57Sen. Durbin: Thank you, Mr. chairman.
▶ 0:25:58Chair Grassley: Thank you. Before I introduce the witnesses, we hear a lot about the discussion of trump's administration's commitment to faithfully executing the laws permit soft on crime policies are not humane for anyone. Criminal networks, the exploit migrants to carry out their criminal activity, and women and children are routinely abused.
▶ 0:26:26Chair Grassley: We must remove the incentives for legal immigration and enforcing immigration laws is very essential to the trump administration's homeland security task force understanding the scopes of these problems in securing our communities as well as our border. I am going to introduce our first witness.
▶ 0:26:50Chair Grassley: It will be christopher hardee, who is the chief of office of law and policy at the apartment of justice national security division, a position he has held since 2019 -- or 2013. A career government attorney with 24 years of service.
▶ 0:27:13Chair Grassley: He has worked across multiple department of justice divisions and specializes in national security legal and policy issues, including counterterrorism, cyber policy, and the law of armed conflict. Next, we have michael torphy, who is unit chief of the fbi uas and counter uas programs. Mr.
▶ 0:27:37Chair Grassley: Torphy has been with the fbi for over 19 years and previously led the bureau's aviation security program here in washington, D.C. prior to that, he conducted national security and violent crime investigations in various field offices across the country.
▶ 0:28:01Chair Grassley: Finally, we have steven steven willoughby, who is actually the director of the department of homeland security is counter uas -- security's counter uas program for security over air domain awareness, threat mitigation, and interagency information sharing. Mr.
▶ 0:28:25Chair Grassley: Willoughby previously served as director of aviation and surface transportation for the white house national security council advising senior leadership on unmanned systems, international transport agreements, and incident response. I'm going to have to ask you to stand so that I can swear you.
▶ 0:28:49Chair Grassley: Do you swear that the testimony you are about to give before this committee will be the truth, the whole truth, and nothing but the truth, so help you god? They all answered affirmatively. So please sit down and go the way I introduced you. Before you first speak, I should thank all of you for taking the time not only to be here but for your preparation for today's hearing.
▶ 0:29:20Chair Grassley: I know you put a lot of work into it. Thank you very much. Go ahead, Mr. hardee.
▶ 0:29:25Mr. Hardee: Good afternoon, chairman grassley, ranking member durbin, and distinguished members of the committee. Thank you for inviting the department of justice to testify about mitigating drone threats.
▶ 0:29:40Sen. Durbin: Could you please pull your microphone a little closer?
▶ 0:29:44Mr. Hardee: This committee has led the way to give the department authority to conduct effective counter drone operations. Chairman grassley has introduced important legislation to fill related gaps in the criminal code. We value your leadership. We look forward to supporting the committee's work as we have over several years. Integrating drones into our airspace is an enormous economic opportunity.
▶ 0:30:13Mr. Hardee: But as our written statement illustrates, if we do not build security into that framework, this technology will post threats to government facilities and assets, critical infrastructure, and the public. Drone technology now shapes conflicts from ukraine to yemen. With armed conflict fueling rapid innovation, these lethal innovations are coming here. Mitigating the threat requires a layered approach to security.
▶ 0:30:42Mr. Hardee: To this end, we work closely with our partners at the faa and dhs, mitigating the threat also requires the resources of nonfederal law enforcement. Private owners of critical infrastructure also play an important role. Congress set the foundation for federal protection activities in the emerging threats act of 2018.
▶ 0:31:06Mr. Hardee: Since then, together with dhs and faa, we have briefed congress about the growing threat and how we use the 2018 law. We have testified about the need to expand that authority. We also need to make it more durable so we can invest in these capabilities. Congress has adopted a series of short-term extensions. The law sunsets on september 30. We appreciate these extensions.
▶ 0:31:35Mr. Hardee: We must retain our existing authority. We also need to enhance the law to support the layered federal state approach required to protect the public. The 2018 act provides clear legal authority for counter drone operations conducted by doj and dhs. The authority is limited to specific missions and subject to detailed requirements.
▶ 0:32:00Mr. Hardee: Without that authority, the most effective types of drone detection and counter drone activities could violate criminal laws. For example, laws like the aircraft sabotage act and the wiretap act. However, the act only applies to specific doj and dhs missions. We support enhancing the law to apply to additional important missions to include airports, critical infrastructure like power plants and chemical facilities, and high risk prisoner transports.
▶ 0:32:31Mr. Hardee: We also support allowing nonfederal law enforcement and owners of critical infrastructure to use approved detection only equipment.that technology is essential to develop a threat picture around their facilities. The technology detects communications passed between the operator's controller and the drone. The systems do not extract or intercept text messages, email, internet search histories, or call information from phones or tablets used to control the drones.
▶ 0:33:03Mr. Hardee: In our view, the benefits are great while the privacy risks are low for that type of technology. We also support certain approved and trained nonfederal law enforcement agencies to use the full range of counter drone technologies. That would include mitigation.this is essential to support large high support events and mass gatherings and state prisons.
▶ 0:33:30Mr. Hardee: Turning to the criminal laws that apply to drones, we have supported chairman grassley's past bill to support the gaps in the code. Few criminal laws apply specifically to drones. Penalties are generally too low. We look forward to working with the chairman and the rest of the committee on these issues. I appreciate the opportunity to testify today. I am pleased to answer your questions. Thank you.
▶ 0:33:56Mr. Torphy: Good morning, chairman grassley, ranking member durbin, and distinguished members of the committee. Thank you for the opportunity to testify today on behalf of the federal bureau of investigation alongside our partners from the department of justice and the department of homeland security. My name is michael torphy. I am a supervisory special agent and unit chief in the fbi's critical incident response group where I oversee unmanned aircraft systems and counter uas operational programs.
▶ 0:34:26Mr. Torphy: I am here today to speak about the fbi's operational efforts to detect and mitigate the malicious use of unmanned aircraft systems. Our adversaries actively seek to exploit gaps in our security framework. That is why it is essential that we protect the fbi's specific tactics, techniques, and procedures. These details are best addressed in a closed session. But I can assure the committee we take every precaution to defend this information and the americans we serve.
▶ 0:34:54Mr. Torphy: Looking ahead, events like the 2026 fifa world cup and 2028 olympic games in los angeles will draw global attention and raise the stakes. At the same time, uas technology is becoming more accessible, cheaper, and more capable, making high-profile events attractive targets. The fbi cannot face the threat alone. The entire U.S.
▶ 0:35:20Mr. Torphy: Government along with our state, local, tribal, and territorial law enforcement partners must have the right tools and authorities in place. The 2018 preventing a bridge and emerging threats act gave the fbi critical but limited authority to detect and mitigate credible uas threats and the protection -- in the protection of special events, mass gatherings, emergency response and security functions of active federal law enforcement investigations, and our personnel and facilities.
▶ 0:35:49Mr. Torphy: Under tha authority and with the necessary approvals, the fbi has conducted 80 missions detecting over 1200 uas in violation of federal law. We have halted hundreds of unauthorized flights either through direct contact with the pilot or using countermeasures. We strictly adhere to all privacy and civil liberties protections outlined in the statute and attorney general guidelines.
▶ 0:36:21Mr. Torphy: Importantly, the fbi's counter uas program is not a national rapid response force. Our resources are limited and prioritized to support only the highest risk operations. With more than 90,000 special events held annually across the country, we must adopt a whole of government approach that including spinning authority to state, local, tribal, and territorial law enforcement partners to fully protect their communities.
▶ 0:36:50Mr. Torphy: We strongly support the department of justice efforts to pursue this expansion swiftly and with appropriate safeguards. With congressional backing, the fbi is ready to train and certify our law enforcement partners to carry out this mission responsibly and effectively. We also urge a long-term expansion of the authority. Short-term renewals make it difficult to plan, budget, and staff a sustainable program.
▶ 0:37:18Mr. Torphy: An extension would allow readiness and enable thoughtful long-term growth of the program. In closing, the fbi remains fully committed to protecting the american people from the threat of malicious and unauthorized drone activity. Reauthorizing this legislation is absolutely essential to maintain our protective capabilities and ensure we get and stay ahead of the threat. Thank you, and I look forward to your questions.
▶ 0:37:52Mr. Willoughby: Chairman grassley, ranking member durbin, and distinguished members of the committee, I am honored to testify regarding the dhs on unmanned systems and the need to reauthorize this authority. We approach the 24th anniversary of the september 11 attacks. I am thankful to be here today to discuss the ways we can improve our collective ability to prevent the drone specific catastrophic event.
▶ 0:38:21Mr. Willoughby: I think I speak for my colleagues here when I say none of us want to end up back in this room to talk about what we could have done differently following an incident. Since 2019, dhs has judiciously and effectively permitted its counter uas authority to counter uas authority . Dhs has performed 1500 to detect assets all without infringing on amendment rights of the U.S. citizens.
▶ 0:38:50Mr. Willoughby: Authority to detect and drone threats will expire september 30 of this year as the chairman mentioned, and we urge congressional action to ensure the continued protection of our nation. Conflict zones across the globe are the new proving grounds for drone tactics and technological developments, in these innovations are only limited by operators's imagination. Air supremacy is no longer determined by fire jets and helicopters but by rather a combination of traditional assets and systems. This is not restricted to war zones.
▶ 0:39:20Mr. Willoughby: Malicious actors in our backyard and across the homeland are finding new ways to use drones to facilitate criminal activity. Nearly every day, transnational criminal organizations use drones to elicit narcotics and countrymen across U.S. borders and conduct hostile surveillance. In the last six months of 2024, over 27,000 drones were detected within 500 meters of the U.S. southern border. Majority of flights were conducted at night or restricted altitudes. U.S.
▶ 0:39:50Mr. Willoughby: Customs and border patrol agents and officers have seized thousands of pounds of narcotics, including enough internal to kill tens of thousands of americans. Across the globe, drones have been used increasingly to conduct connecticut tax. One delivered explosives -- conduct attacks. One delivered explosives. They have demonstrated their lethality and versatility in ukraine and russia.
▶ 0:40:21Mr. Willoughby: As my colleagues here can attest to the threat of attacks is also a concern in the united states. Drones have caused significant and dangerous interference with aviation. Since 2021, the transportation security administration has reported over 3000 drone events near U.S. airports, some of which have led to operation disruptions of commercial air traffic.
▶ 0:40:51Mr. Willoughby: Already this year, 11 aircraft have reported taking evasive action to avoid colliding with drones. In two instances, drones have collided in california and texas. The trends are clear. Drone activity will continue to increase at operators to find new and novel ways to use this technology for good and bad. Any lapse in our authority would expose dhs missions and the american public to risks from drone attacks and hostile surveillance activities.
▶ 0:41:18Mr. Willoughby: We would no longer be able to secure our borders, and facilities and assets will be left vulnerable. A lapse will create critical security gaps in high-risk areas, hinder strategic planning, and jeopardize national preparation for events such as the world cup, the 250th anniversary celebrations, and the olympic games. The conversation does not stop there. It is time for this authority to evolve to ensure we can keep pace with this dynamic threat.
▶ 0:41:50Mr. Willoughby: The explicit inclusion of components will help us address gaps at the federal level but we need state, local, tribal, and territorial partners to serve as force multipliers in their jurisdictions. These groups currently lack authority despite their responsibility for the protection of local events and infrastructure.
▶ 0:42:16Mr. Willoughby: Additionally, dhs and other partners lack the ability to help each other respond to uas events, authorizing usual support between federal entities will immediately allow us to increase our collective capacity to deal with uas that's nationwide. Our statutory authority and operational input petition must remain as dynamic as that that we are facing and this can be a compost in a responsible and proven manner that balances security needs with safety expectations.
▶ 0:42:41Mr. Willoughby: Obtaining a durable long-term extension of our, authority is essential for dhs to continue performing its protection missions, but the authority must expand to keep pace with the threats our nation faces. Thank you for the chance to testify today. I look forward to your questions.
▶ 0:43:06Sen. Durbin: She can't hear you.
▶ 0:43:08Chair Grassley: Can you hear me now? I can get closer. We got on the democrat side, the republican side. I will start. Five-minute rounds. Mr.
▶ 0:43:36Chair Grassley: Willoughby, we all know the federal government cannot be everywhere at once. So please tell us how expanded counter drone authority for state and local law enforcement would support your department's efforts and enhance overall public safety.
▶ 0:43:52Mr. Willoughby: Yes, thank you, chairman, for the question. Really as you mentioned, the federal presence is limited in its capacity, and we require participation from state, local, tribal, and territorial entities to provide security within their local and state jurisdictions. As Mr. torphy mentioned, there are tens of thousands of events nationwide that go unprotected from the threat of uas.
▶ 0:44:21Mr. Willoughby: The state and locals within those jurisdictions are ultimately responsible for protecting games, whether it is a college football game in iowa or an airport in chicago. The state and locals again are the primary first responders to prevent and respond to an incident. Giving them the authority to detect and mitigate drones would enhance our collective ability as law enforcement and public safety officials to deter and defend against those types of threats.
▶ 0:44:47Chair Grassley: Mr. hardee, drones continue to proliferate, as we know. We need to ensure our criminal laws keep pace with technology. Can you identify a few major gaps in our criminal code or other laws that need to be addressed to keep up with the emerging threat?
▶ 0:45:08Mr. Hardee: Thank you, senator. As I indicated in my statement, we have supported your pass legislation, the drone act, which covers some of the key areas we view as gaps. The first would be weaponization of drones. Currently, it is generally a civil offense to weaponize a drone. We believe there should be more comprehensive approach to that and it should be a felony. The second area is prohibiting knowingly flying drones into protected airspace.
▶ 0:45:38Mr. Hardee: That is also now a misdemeanor. Even taking photos of a sensitive dod facility. That is an area we believe should be addressed and additional criminal laws. The third area is the using of drones to interfere with aircraft, airports, vessels, and vehicles. There is currently fragmentary coverage now in the criminal code, and the penalties are generally inadequate.
▶ 0:46:02Mr. Hardee: The fourth, which is also addressed in your pass legislation -- past legislation, using drones to transport contraband into places like prison. That is an increasing threat and risk. We are seeing more and more cases of that across the country. The fifth area would be criminalizing or making a felony the impairment of drone identification information. That will be a foundation for integrating drones into the U.S. airspace.
▶ 0:46:30Mr. Hardee: The last area would be using drones to impair emergency response activities. That is another area where the criminal code is fragmentary. It is not comprehensively addressed and the penalties are generally inadequate. Those are the main areas. Those reflect your good work in the past legislation.
▶ 0:46:54Mr. Hardee: We are willing to work with you and the rest of the committee to scope those provisions and ensure we do inappropriately and cover all the areas we really need to cover. Thank you.
▶ 0:47:03Chair Grassley: Mr. torphy, some privacy advocates suggest law enforcement should be required to secure prior to detecting or mitigating a drone that may threaten public safety. Speaking from your hands on experiences, is this a reasonable suggestion? If not, why not?
▶ 0:47:24Mr. Torphy: Thank you for the question, chairman. Unfortunately, that is not a reality, realistic possibility in actual operations. Our operators have often mere seconds to determine whether a drone present equitable threat. -- a credible threat. The requirement requires a specificity of the target we are attempting to detect, track, identify, and potentially mitigate. We do not know that in advance. We are a safety net.
▶ 0:47:55Mr. Torphy: Our operations, our personnel and equipment serve as the last-ditch safety net to protect special events and other facilities. That is not a realistic expectation.
▶ 0:48:08Chair Grassley: Mr. willoughby, can you describe your department's process of coordinating with federal aviation administration and our other agencies to ensure counter drone resources are deployed safely and responsibly? That will be my last question.
▶ 0:48:25Mr. Willoughby: Absolutely. Every piece of a commit for every deployment at every bespoke location is coordinated directly with the faa and potentially with the ntiaa or fcc as appropriate.it is important for us to maintain that with the -- maintain that coordination with the faa.
▶ 0:48:46Mr. Willoughby: To be good stewards of the commercial air traffic and the others that operate in the airspace, it is critical that we maintain that relationship, the framework from which was developed as part of the 2018 and emerging threats act. We hope to continue that framework in the event that our authority is extended and also expanded to others. We expect them to be held to the same standard.
▶ 0:49:10Chair Grassley: Thank you you all for answering my questions.
▶ 0:49:14Sen. Durbin: Thank you, Mr. chairman. Mr. torphy, you have piqued my curiosity. 90,000 special events in a year. Is that correct?
▶ 0:49:22Mr. Torphy: Yes, sir.
▶ 0:49:23Sen. Durbin: If you determine there is a malicious drone overhead at one of these events, what do you do to mitigate the threat?
▶ 0:49:29Mr. Torphy: To be clear, there are over 90,000 special events this past fiscal year. Our team is present at an extremely, extremely small number of those. Only the up to the highest risk social events, things like the super bowl, the indy 500, etc., the types of incidents we are present at.
▶ 0:49:48Sen. Durbin: Understood.
▶ 0:49:53Mr. Torphy: At those events, nearly every mission we do, we see people violate the law. We provide fair notice, implement fight restrictions -- flight restrictions.
▶ 0:49:59Sen. Durbin: Flight plans?
▶ 0:50:01Mr. Torphy: We proactively correlate with the faa to restrict flight permission. That is on the devices that the pilots used to fly there drones. Sometimes it is geo-fence where the drum infection or will provide some level of software barrier where they cannot fly into that area, but that depends on the drone manufacturer.
▶ 0:50:23Sen. Durbin: But how do you mitigate it? How do you stop it? If it is flying over wrigley field and is not authorized, what is next?
▶ 0:50:32Mr. Torphy: For the events we are providing coverage, again a very small and inadequate amount of these events, we use a variety of technologies to detect, track, identify, and if absolutely necessary, technically mitigate. We have two forms of mitigation. One will be the use of ground intercept teams which are fbi teams and law enforcement agents that make physical contact with the pilot.
▶ 0:50:58Mr. Torphy: Again, using the authority provided in the statute to get the good detection technology.
▶ 0:51:05Sen. Durbin: But if this is a bad actor, that does not sound to me like providing information to our government and how to reach that.
▶ 0:51:12Mr. Torphy: That is option one, sir. Option two, if absolutely necessary, we use those technical countermeasures come equipment we use specifically designed to disrupt the drone signal. I cannot get into the details of all of that, but we have a very good success rate using that technology again when absolutely necessary. We have had drones go right up to the edge of halftime games for super bowls and such. We have been successful in repelling those.
▶ 0:51:40Sen. Durbin: Maybe we will do a classified briefing to learn a little more.
▶ 0:51:44Mr. Torphy: My pleasure.
▶ 0:51:45Sen. Durbin: Mr. willoughby, part of your testimony suggests that in some ways we are fighting the last war when it comes to narcotics in this country, which is discourage -- a scourge and kills so many people. Of course, we are mindful individuals transport these narcotics with the simplest forms of communication, transportation, trucks, and the like. But what you are suggesting is now they are flying these narcotics into this country.
▶ 0:52:15Sen. Durbin: It is amazing numbers. 27,000 drones were detected in the last six months of 2024. You go through the various ways they are using to avoid detection. In this situation. We just really had a debate over a reconciliation bill where we are investing billions, billions of dollars in detention facilities and new things that will be built at the border to deal with the human trafficking back-and-forth over the border.
▶ 0:52:46Sen. Durbin: How much is it going to take for us to deal with the drone threat that you have outlined very specifically?
▶ 0:52:52Mr. Willoughby: It is going to take a lot. I'm going to be honest with you. We have a portion of the border that has persistent surveillance measures there, but the members of these cartels and these transnational criminal organizations are very smart and move their operations across the border to where operators either cannot interdict them or we do not have technology in place on a persistent basis.
▶ 0:53:16Mr. Willoughby: It is going to take a significant amount of investment but at the component level for customs and border protection as well as the department level to have enough equipment sporadically spread across the border to be able to detect drones operating across 2000 linear miles of land.
▶ 0:53:31Sen. Durbin: This seems like a big undertaking. I will just say for the record, now that we know of those who are being deported in the mass deportation policy of president trump, 8% have a criminal record, which means that 11 out of the 12 we are deporting do not have a criminal record, and yet we are going through all of the infrastructure necessary and process necessary to deport them.
▶ 0:53:56Sen. Durbin: It seems to be if we are going after real threats, current threats, and growing threats to the united states, we should divert some of this money from the mass deportation, which is only deporting people who overstate a visitors visa for example instead of focusing on what you identified as a scary prospect, the 2000 mile border vulnerable to these narcotics and other dangerous elements that are being sent into our country. I would hope we do that.
▶ 0:54:26Sen. Durbin: I yield. Senator cornyn, I think you are taking over.
▶ 0:54:31Sen. Cornyn: Thank you for being here. My comments will not reflect on you or your organization at all, but I do think it is important for congress and the american people to understand the importance of this threat.
▶ 0:54:48Sen. Cornyn: I am not the only one that has been at a sporting or entertainment event recently that has seen the incredible use of drones operating sort of like an orchestra and doing things that years ago perhaps we could only imagine. But the fact of the matter is that we are not prepared for this technology.
▶ 0:55:14Sen. Cornyn: The truth is, like every technology can be used for good or ill, but the fact is, and I think Mr. willoughby, you mentioned the operation spiderweb that the ukrainians used against the russian federation in june of 2025 where they literally transported hundreds of drones in vehicles to evade air defense systems but then released the drones on cue
▶ 0:55:45Sen. Cornyn: To attack and bomb a fleet of russian bombers, blocking out a significant percentage of their bombing fleet. I was reflecting on your testimony when I was also thinking about a year ago, a little over a year ago, president trump was a target of an assassination attempt.
▶ 0:56:07Sen. Cornyn: The secret service, who is not represented here today, when we asked them about drones, apparently the shooter had a drone and used that for purposes of surveillance before he actually got in place and took the shot. I ask about anti-drone technology for the secret service, and they said they had none. Their own drones were apparently not operational for some reason.
▶ 0:56:41Sen. Cornyn: It is true that the iranian regime currently has a death warrant out for president trump. And the fbi has interrupted and disrupted a number of assassination attempt against president trump. Isn't that right, Mr. torphy?
▶ 0:56:59Mr. Torphy: The fbi has thrower did -- has thwarted many attack plots using drones, and we believe that is the fbi doing what the fbi does best, intelligence, investigations, undercover operations. And only when all else fails, we have the technical countermeasures to protect tactical events.
▶ 0:57:20Sen. Cornyn: The fbi does good work. But as you point out, with 90,000 special events around the country each year, you cannot be everywhere. And you depend on state and local officials to help out. We saw that actually in butler, pennsylvania, a little over a year ago. But when the secret service delegated its responsibilities to protect the president of the united states, obviously that failed to accomplish that objective. But it strikes me, Mr.
▶ 0:57:51Sen. Cornyn: Willoughby, that given this incredible technology that the ukrainians demonstrated just this summer against the russians that we are not prepared to deal with this with tha threat at a mass sportg event or entertaining event or even to protect the president of the united states if an adversary decided to use drones swarms -- drone swarms to do him
▶ 0:58:23Sen. Cornyn: Harm. Do you agree with me?
▶ 0:58:25Mr. Willoughby: I do think it comes down to capacity, which is why we continue to reiterate the need for additional entities that can operate this type of equipment and protect within their jurisdictions the events and the citizens that are there.
▶ 0:58:39Sen. Cornyn: I know Mr. hardee and Mr. torphy talked about authorities, but of course, those are only useful once something that happens. An investigation occurs, a prosecution occurs.
▶ 0:58:54Sen. Cornyn: But when it comes to actually preventing harm to the american people, whether it is a sporting event, entertaining event, or a rally like the one in butler, pennsylvania, it strikes me a determined adversary has all the tools they need using drone technology to accomplish their goal. We are not prepared to deal with that at this point. Is that correct?
▶ 0:59:18Mr. Willoughby: Again, I think the authority does afford us the opportunity to gain the immediate domain air awareness. You cannot stop a threat that you don't know is there. You don't know a drone is there unless you have the advanced detection equip men a trained operator to differentiate a median drawn from a bad drone. We cannot be everywhere all the time.
▶ 0:59:46Mr. Willoughby: There are ways for us to improve our own operations to include the secret service and other components, but we need additional partners to be able to tackle this, this type of threat scenario. If operation spiderweb were to occur to mystically here, we would need additional partners to identify and prevent those drones from carrying out that attacked.
▶ 1:00:09Sen. Cornyn: Senator moody and I were attorney generals of our states, large states. We worked with federal partners and state and local partners. When you talk about resource constraints, that defines really the way state and local partners operate, so it is the federal government that has the resources.
▶ 1:00:30Sen. Cornyn: But again, I know this is not intended as a criticism of any of you or your organization's, but it strikes me that we are woefully unprepared. State and local authorities do not have the resources they need in order to do with this potential threat either, so this is not just a question of having the proper authorities and prosecuting people who violate those laws that we may pass, but then operationally, how do we prevent the harm that this new
▶ 1:01:01Sen. Cornyn: Technology is capable of inflicting?
▶ 1:01:06Sen. Durbin: I think we have a bipartisan consensus that senator moody is next. Or is it senator britt?
▶ 1:01:18Sen. Moody: Thank you. I always appreciate when I get to butt ahead of my colleague, senator britt. Thank you to the judiciary committee and judiciary staff. I know a lot when into this hearing, and this is our second hearing we are holding on drones in a short period of time, and that speaks volumes to the importance of this issue to our national security and our domestic security.
▶ 1:01:48Sen. Moody: So I think the witnesses for being here and certainly the staff that worked hard to get this hearing ready. I think we are all cognizant that whether it is border operations or trying to tackle the issue of transnational criminal organizations using drones or certainly those that have come into our country under purported lawful means but now using drones to surveilled really critical infrastructure to our national security, and it is happening very frequently.
▶ 1:02:20Sen. Moody: This could not be more timely. And as quickly adopting improved laws to address these risks I think is so important. I have been focusing very much on students coming into our country on visas and then getting a hold of drones and using them to surveill our military \ to surveille -- to surveil our military bases.
▶ 1:02:51Sen. Moody: Over and over we are seeing them. One was cut using a drone in virginia. One was caught in my own state surveilling patrick space for space -- space force base. Another in los angeles flying over and air force base. I can go on and on. At some point, we have to acknowledge our laws may not be as efficient and specifically as it relates to videos.
▶ 1:03:20Sen. Moody: We just a couple months ago, a chinese born canadian citizen on a visa in our country flying a drone over a station in florida, my home state. They searched his drone afterwards and found he had flown it nine times, taking 2000 videos within a span of a few days.
▶ 1:03:41Sen. Moody: The documents that were released in the middle district of florida showed that 13 videos showed military infrastructure at cape canaveral space force station that included roads, power dissipation infrastructure security checkpoints, mission control infrastructure, fuel storage facilities, munitions storage areas, space launch complex, payload processing facilities, a submarine wharf, among other critical infrastructure.
▶ 1:04:09Sen. Moody: When that man was charged, they could not charge based on the videos because video is not included in the drone espionage act of something that can be charged. And so as this routine and the frequency of people taking videos of our military installation picks up, it is clear to me there needs to be an update to our drone espionage act.
▶ 1:04:38Sen. Moody: That seems to be front and center that we could do right now to make a change in our laws to address this evolving technology. I introduced critical legislation after this committee's hearing in may that would strengthen the existing statute to include videography of sensitive national defense sites as a crime under the espionage act of 1917, and that would close that loophole. This is not only happening in florida.
▶ 1:05:06Sen. Moody: I said, this will be a concern to all of us on the judiciary that have military installations in our state. I happen to have 21 in florida, and numerous have been videoed by people that should not have taken video of our installations but I think it is critical we have policymakers take this seriously, not only the warnings you are giving us very clearly, but being efficient and getting something done and changing our laws to reflect this evolving technology and the increased
▶ 1:05:36Sen. Moody: Threats and risks. It is not just hypothetical. Like we have said, we have seen would-be assassins flying drones. We are seeing right here people in our country taking videos of our military installations that are here purportedly lawfully on visas. It has to be stopped and they have to be charged. We have to close these loopholes. I will start with Mr. hardee.
▶ 1:05:58Sen. Moody: As we have seen in several recent reports, including in the case I just mentioned where a man took so many videos of our military infrastructure in florida, how important is it our infrastructure and our sensitive military installations be protected from drone surveillance in order to protect our national security?
▶ 1:06:23Mr. Hardee: Thank you, senator. As I said in response to the question from chairman grassley, we strongly support a more comprehensive approach to creating felonies that would apply to airspace that is national defense airspace. As you are aware from your comments, those are generally misdemeanors now. The coverage is too narrow and the penalties are too low.
▶ 1:06:52Mr. Hardee: We look forward to working with the committee on those issues and the issue you raised with respect to the scope of the provision that applies.
▶ 1:06:58Sen. Moody: At this moment, you cannot charge a misdemeanor if someone takes a video of a critical military infrastructure, correct?
▶ 1:07:07Mr. Hardee: With the forward to working with the committee on that particular statute in addition to those I mentioned in response to chairman grassley, which is an approach where we would be able to impose flight restrictions over facilities and you would not have the issue of, what was the person photographing? What was their intention in violation of the airspace? There are two ways to address that problem and we would support looking at both of those working with the committee.
▶ 1:07:34Sen. Moody: Thank you.
▶ 1:07:36Sen. Durbin: Thank you. Senator klobuchar.
▶ 1:07:39Sen. Klobuchar: Thank you, senator durbin. Thank you all for being here and for your work. I will start with you, Mr. willoughby. I am concerned about the risks. I have seen good uses of drones in my state for crop management, pesticide application, civil engineers using it to look at bridges or if we have some kind of a flood or a rail derailment where people do not know if it is safe or not.
▶ 1:08:09Sen. Klobuchar: I am well aware it can be used for good purposes, but as you noted in your written testimony, there have been 160 reported drone incidents near airports in 2025 alone. This has forced a dozen aircraft to take evasive action and has caused ground stops at major airports like senator durbin's state o'hare. How does dhs work with airport authorities to ensure we can keep the public safe?
▶ 1:08:41Sen. Klobuchar: And do you need additional authorities to protect planes, passengers, airports?
▶ 1:08:46Mr. Willoughby: Thank you for the question. Right now, dhs is not able to use its counter drone authority to protect airports in a proactive or persistent manner. The only case we would be allowed to use our existing authority would be in the event of an incident occurring at us performing some sort of federal investigation or emergency response after something has already happened. This is a critical gap, something I mentioned in my oral remarks and are captured in a written statement as well.
▶ 1:09:15Mr. Willoughby: We need our transportation security administration to have the explicit authority to be able to protect commercial airports as well as other transportation infrastructure from drone events.
▶ 1:09:23Sen. Klobuchar: Thank you. Thank you very much. Mr. hardee, at our last hearing on this subject, I asked one of our witnesses who serves as a correctional officer about the risks drones posed to correctional facilities. That was one of the major topics just discussed. Your written testimony describes how drones have been used to introduce contraband including weapons, drugs, cell phones into bop facilities.
▶ 1:09:53Sen. Klobuchar: Just heard from correctional officers in minnesota describing some of the challenges they face detecting drone incursions. What is the justice department to ensure the facilities are able to detect and respond in real time? I guess the same question I asked Mr. willoughby. Anything more we should be doing?
▶ 1:10:12Mr. Hardee: Thank you, senator. The bureau of prisons has to my understanding established detection technology and I think all of its maximum-security prisons and some of its medium security prisons, in the process of using the full authority of the 2018 act use the authority that would include mitigation. So it is a critical issue. The issue continues to grow.
▶ 1:10:41Mr. Hardee: The types of contraband that are being shipped into these prisons using drones is more concerning. It is a problem that is expanding. And it is a problem that the states are facing as well. We have numerous situations where we have supported.
▶ 1:10:59Sen. Klobuchar: Any ideas what we should do?
▶ 1:11:02Mr. Hardee: Reauthorizing the 2018 act is the first step. That is absolutely critical. The second would be expending the authority for state and locals to use the same type of technology to protect their presence.
▶ 1:11:14Sen. Klobuchar: Ok. If you can thank the director, he came out to minnesota and visited our facility in duluth that has some lower-level offenders and decided to keep it open. It was going to be closed. Just happened last week. I really appreciated he talked to me first and went out there. A good decision in my mind. So thank you. Mr. torphy, last question here.
▶ 1:11:41Sen. Klobuchar: Federal law enforcement was able to disrupt a number of plots to use drones to attack critical infrastructure last year. This included thwarting plots to attack an fbi field office in knoxville and an attack on the energy grid. What are some of the complexities involved in investigating plots if they use weaponized drones, and are there additional authorities the fbi needs?
▶ 1:12:04Mr. Torphy: It is a rapidly evolving technological space and requires the full force of the federal government and extremely important as noted in the executive order restoring america's airspace sovereignty, the integration of our joint terrorism task force is all over the country. So getting over investigators and technical experts involved in our investigations is critically important.
▶ 1:12:32Mr. Torphy: Bringing it back to the authorities, again, expanding their authorities allows them to get even better in this regard. We have leadership from coast-to-coast from the l.a. County sheriff's office, new york city list apartment, new jersey state police that are already using the equipment up to what they are allowed to use today, and the time is right for them to get to the next step.
▶ 1:12:53Sen. Klobuchar: Thank you. Thank you also, Mr. torphy. If you could pass on that thanks to the fbi for the work in the murder investigation, the manhunt in minnesota. It was coordinated with state and local but they did a really good job.
▶ 1:13:06Mr. Torphy: Thank you, senator.
▶ 1:13:08Sen. Durbin: Senator britt.
▶ 1:13:10Sen. Britt: Thank you to the chair and vice chair for holding this hearing and for the witnesses being here today. Mr. torphy, it is good to see you again. I enjoyed my time with you and director patel. Appreciate the briefing, and certainly hope I encourage all of my colleagues to go down and see firsthand the incredible work you are doing.
▶ 1:13:32Sen. Britt: You and some of the experts at fbi redstone also briefed us on technology development and advancements which have made drones more lethal. Look, we know redstone article is the epicenter of the fbi's technology capabilities and advanced training and we will play a central role in the fbi strategy to combat these evolving threats of drones by providing technological infrastructure and training facilities necessary to develop and implement effective counter uas strategies.
▶ 1:14:03Sen. Britt: But what I want to know from you is, how is the fbi keeping up with countering the technological advancements and increasing lethality of
▶ 1:14:15Mr. Torphy: Thank you for the question. It was a pleasure to host you two months ago. It was great for you to meet people who do this and see the equipment we use. Redstone is a big part of us in that we have developed strong relationships with the department of defense entities. The program executive office from the U.S. army is up the street.
▶ 1:14:43Mr. Torphy: We have a budding memorandum of understanding for the technologies we can test in urban and suburban areas. We have that expertise. We deploy in new york city and los angeles and can provide feedback to the military. It is a perfect place for us to be doing this work.
▶ 1:15:07Mr. Torphy: With the investments congress has made in those facilities and advanced technology, I have been able to see that facility grow in my years working there. It is about having that proximity to the other important parties in this space and not just the army but the other armed forces as well.
▶ 1:15:30Sen. Britt: The collaboration was incredible. As we are looking at the increased number of threats, what additional authority do you need to adequately address these concerns?
▶ 1:15:43Mr. Torphy: As stated in written remarks, the most important one that would deliver the most bang for the buck would be opening up detection capabilities across correctional facilities as well because it is very difficult to fight the enemy that you cannot see. So we need visibility into the airspace. The fbi, we don't monitor the airspace.
▶ 1:16:14Mr. Torphy: We only deploy our equipment in very specific situations when there is an official need and investigation that is occurring. We would expect to see from our law enforcement partners. That is the most important thing. In the written record we have laid out the important pieces.
▶ 1:16:31Sen. Britt: When we are looking at hotels we know homeland security has done the third assessment will be looking at cartels using drones along the border. Is there anything in particular that the committee needs to know or do local authorities need additional to help us come back the threat on the border?
▶ 1:16:54Mr. Torphy: We are doing thing with the mexican army government and law enforcement, we are sending people down there to train them on drone exploitation and the principles and we are delivering best practices to them to keep them safer to fight the war.
▶ 1:17:18Mr. Torphy: Then we are bringing back the things they're learning in their country because that will come into our country and we will be better prepared. Through the authorities delivered to the state and locals, we can train them on what we are seeing in mexico. Making that full length from what is happening from cartels in mexico all the way to local law enforcement.
▶ 1:17:43Sen. Britt: Last thing, and I would like each of you to answer. Mr. willoughby, you brought this up and we have heard this from both sides of the aisle. As we look to what is ahead of us whether that is the fifa world cup in 2026, the celebration of our nation, the 250th celebration, whether it is the olympics in l.a.
▶ 1:18:07Sen. Britt: Or whether it is football in the fall is up in just a few months, talk to me about where we are with regard to current walls governing counter U.S. authorities?
▶ 1:18:27Sen. Britt: Are they sufficient to do what you need to and protect individuals in these types of environments and the fold question is do you have the resources and the technology available to you at your agency that you need or do you need something greater in order to be able to protect american citizens coast-to-coast? I would like for all three of you to answer this question.
▶ 1:18:47Mr. Willoughby: Thank you for the question. From an authoritative perspective those who have the authority right now have what they need in the current statute and would like to see that extended for a much longer term so they can continue to plan strategically and resource appropriately for those events. There are tens of thousands of events that go unprotected every year from these types of threats. We cannot be everywhere.
▶ 1:19:17Mr. Willoughby: Whether that is fbi or dhs, we cannot be at every event. We cover the super bowl. What about the other 200 nfl games happening? And we need our state and local partners there charged with the protection of those stadiums in concert with these private groups to be able to understand what is in the airspace through detection measures and have some sort of recourse or countermeasure to protect those stadiums.
▶ 1:19:46Mr. Willoughby: We will never have enough federal agents to protect every nfl game or at every mlb game.
▶ 1:19:52Sen. Britt: Every sec game.
▶ 1:19:55Mr. Willoughby: We need to rely on the state and locals as employers. We need to look at a responsible expansion to those locals and agencies at the federal levels who can assist and close the gaps.
▶ 1:20:14Chair Grassley: Senator schmitt.
▶ 1:20:17Sen. Schmitt: Just a follow-up on that, what is the extent of that mismatch of capabilities that exist between federal and state and local partners? What is the difference between the super bowl versus missouri, alabama, in october? What is the difference in capability, how concerned are you and what can we do about it?
▶ 1:20:53Mr. Torphy: The difference is we have the full gamut of capabilities to deploy along with training personnel who can act and respond to threats as they arise. Whether it is an ncaa football game or another nfl game during the regular season, that federal presence is not there which means the capabilities are also not there. Stadiums and local jurisdictions are using what is within the realm of legal in the current framework.
▶ 1:21:25Mr. Torphy: But it is inadequate for them to be able to detect the wide gamut of potential threats at these events. As Mr. torphy mentioned, there are nearly 90,000 special events that get nominated for recognition of the federal government level.
▶ 1:21:44Mr. Torphy: Only a couple dozen of those rise to the level of national significance where we have the determination that it would merit supports counter-uas for counter-uas given our limited capacity, enabling state and locals to use the same technology in the same responsible way, bolstering general capacity from a law enforcement --
▶ 1:22:05Sen. Schmitt: Let me ask this. In the state, who is the best? Is it highway patrol, state police -- are they the ones to be the conduit for this? Also, what role does the private sector play? I am also on the armed services committee. There are private actors that already do this really well that should be contracted with this as opposed us trying to re-create -- reinvent the wheel.
▶ 1:22:36Mr. Torphy: The difference is stark between the protection at the super bowl and most any other event at the united states and the american people should be concerned about that. These law enforcement agencies know their jurisdictions. You have probably seen on television instances of drones hovering over the field. And you've seen the police officer in charge or the event organizer in charge looking at it and talking on his radio because there's nothing they can do about it. That should be very concerning.
▶ 1:23:08Mr. Torphy: There's a role for the private sector to play and they are already playing that role and the development of these amazing systems being developed. Perhaps as a protection of critical infrastructure, that will be a sustainable way
▶ 1:23:23Forward Sen. Schmitt: What critical infrastructure is most at risk?
▶ 1:23:29Mr. Torphy: I would defer to that question to the department of homeland security.
▶ 1:23:35Mr. Willoughby: They are all at risk. Whether it is a chemical processing plant, a stadium, a prison, they are all vulnerable in their unique way. You can use a drone to conduct nefarious activity. It could be jumping -- dropping a package into a jail yard, connecting an explosive device and attacking an ammonium nitrate plant.
▶ 1:24:05Mr. Willoughby: The drone is a mechanism, the delivery vehicle. They are all vulnerable in their own ways to include cyber attacks.
▶ 1:24:10Sen. Schmitt: I can tell you that in more classified briefings the ones that relate to drones are often the most concerning. Mr. hardee, I don't have much time left but I want to talk about the cartels and what is happening at the border. Have there been drone attacks on U.S. personnel by mexican cartels?
▶ 1:24:38Mr. Hardee: I am not aware of that but I would defer to Mr. willoughby.
▶ 1:24:45Mr. Willoughby: I would have to circle back with you but I can follow up.
▶ 1:24:49Sen. Schmitt: Where are they typically acquiring drones?
▶ 1:24:53Mr. Willoughby: Walmart, amazon, most of them are off-the-shelf products that you can get at the store, order online. You can buy components and create yourself through diy.
▶ 1:25:05Sen. Schmitt: As we are talking about the legal framework of how we can be more effective in determining what can be done on that front as far as limiting the procurement from individuals or cartel organizations?
▶ 1:25:22Mr. Willoughby: It is a fine line because drones are used for many positive ways. It is very tough to determine intent from a person's point of view -- from a purchase point of view. By the regulations for security purposes, that can go a long way in preventing the misuse of drones.
▶ 1:25:47Mr. Willoughby: If you think about pilot certifications, enhancing ways to share that information with law enforcement partners to be sure that is being done appropriately and across the board, I think will go a long way. If you are a zuberi sector, you will not register -- if you are a nefarious actor, you will not register.
▶ 1:26:07Sen. Schmitt: What should be -- what advances have we made in the last couple of years that we can take some solace in knowing there is lot of work to do?
▶ 1:26:18Mr. Willoughby: We are doing our best to keep pace from a countermeasure perspective. What we have done is, it is a system of system approach. We have radiofrequency detection systems, electrical, optical and infrared cameras and all of this is pumping information to help operators make the most informed decision on a case-by-case basis. This is often a matter of seconds in a tactical situation.
▶ 1:26:44Mr. Willoughby: As the technology improves and our ability to train and specialize operators, we make tremendous headway in differentiating those from being bad and those who are authorized along side ability to stop and arrest those who are flying unauthorized.
▶ 1:27:06Chair Grassley: Senator blackburn.
▶ 1:27:10Sen. Blackburn: Thank you Mr. chairman. I appreciate those of you who are with us today. We appreciate it. I want to stay on this issue with the drones and how they are used for good and for bad. One of the things we are doing is seeing them used with our civil military fusion programs. We are concerned about what is happening with the ccp.
▶ 1:27:39Sen. Blackburn: They are manufacturing drones in the millions. And we are doing them in the thousands every year. And we know that china looks at this as an area where they are winning. Mr.
▶ 1:27:58Sen. Blackburn: Hardee, let me come to you and talk a little bit about the importance of us innovating and winning that innovation and production race so that we have the drones we need for law enforcement and for warfare.
▶ 1:28:21Mr. Hardee: Thank you senator. That is an extremely important issue. We all recognize that drones may from the people's republic of china represent an extremely high share of the market of drones in the united states.
▶ 1:28:40Mr. Hardee: President trump's recent executive orders are one step in addressing that issue with different agencies working on issues relating to the importation of drones from china and adversary jurisdictions. We take that into account in our procurement decisions. I know other agencies do as well. That is something we are monitoring and we are trying to support the use of a secure domestic drone industrial base.
▶ 1:29:09Sen. Blackburn: Mr. willoughby, I want to come to you. Senator britt touched on drones. In tennessee we have a lot of big concerts, music festivals, sporting events. We have had to work with the faa to make certain drones are not in certain areas during certain times.
▶ 1:29:39Sen. Blackburn: As you were talking about the ease with which people can commercially acquire a drone, this issue becomes more pressing as you look at public safety and these events.
▶ 1:29:57Sen. Blackburn: Talk for just a moment about things that legislatively we can tackle to make certain we will have a standard process for moving forward and securing these public events.
▶ 1:30:11Mr. Willoughby: Thanks for the question. Two pieces. As we mentioned already, federal partners cannot be at every event all the time. So we need to enable those that protect these events day in and day out, state and local partners are empowered and authorized to use the most advanced technology to understand what is in the airspace and respond accordingly.
▶ 1:30:39Mr. Willoughby: This is not different than any other type of technology or vehicle that somebody might use to conduct criminal activity. If you wanted to drive a car into a crowd of people, then you put up a wall to prevent them from going there. We need the same mindset when it comes to drones as a normal part of our security parameters. Right now they are not legally allowed to use the technology that is available out there on the marketplace for them to be able to prevent those types of attacks.
▶ 1:31:05Sen. Blackburn: What about drones manufactured in adversarial countries like china?
▶ 1:31:11Mr. Willoughby: It is a serious problem as Mr. hardee mentioned. They have the overwhelming share of the market right now. It is unclear how the state is being protected and who might be looking at it from intelligence or surveillance perspective.
▶ 1:31:27Sen. Blackburn: Mr. torphy, am I saying your name right?
▶ 1:31:32Mr. Torphy: Yes, senator.
▶ 1:31:34Sen. Blackburn: Smuggling drugs into state and federal prisons. As I have talked with individuals that are handling prisons, prison populations, they talked about the increasing use of these and the frustration with that.
▶ 1:32:00Sen. Blackburn: Can you talk about that and how we address that issue of smuggling drugs and contraband into prisons using drones? Mr. willoughby thank you --
▶ 1:32:14Mr. Torphy: Thank you. You had an excellent witness that addressed their concerns. The fbi gets after that primarily through our violent crimes, drug, gang investigations. We see those and action that with technical countermeasures but it goes back to how do we get this equipment and more importantly these authorities to the folks that are actually protecting these facilities?
▶ 1:32:44Sen. Blackburn: Thank you Mr. chairman.
▶ 1:32:46Chair Grassley: Thank you. Before we adjourn, there are a couple of clean up things. While I was on the senate floor there were some comments made about needing funding for drones. Maybe the people that brought that up do not realize that we included funding in the reconciliation bill recently passed in congress.
▶ 1:33:16Chair Grassley: I assume that if that is not adequate, that the appropriators will be reviewing for the 2026 fiscal year. I would like to enter two letters into the record. The first is a letter from your governor kathy hochul -- new york governor kathy hochul. The letter reads, "the sunset of this authority puts the U.S. at risk and this authority must be extended.
▶ 1:33:47Chair Grassley: The letter further calls for more robust federal counter drones authorities and the expansion of these authorities the state and local law enforcement." the second is a bipartisan letter from counsel of governors to the department of defense and homeland security.
▶ 1:34:09Chair Grassley: I will partially quote from that letter, "across the nation we have seen trouble have seen troubling incidents involving drones used for surveillance, smuggling and incursions over critical infrastructure, department of defense's facilities and state correctional institutions." "in many cases we lack the
▶ 1:34:40Chair Grassley: Authority or tools needed to respond effectively." this is as has been stated here by almost everyone here, truly bipartisan issue. I will put those letters in the record without objections. And then to thank all of you and some of you suggested keeping in touch with me on our legislation. Do not wait for me to call you.
▶ 1:35:06Chair Grassley: If you call me, if there are some changes you think need to be made and if you have any strategy, feel free to do that. Wait a minute, we have another member on the way I was just informed. We will give him the courtesy of asking his questions. Senator schiff from california.
▶ 1:36:19Chair Grassley: While senator schiff is coming, we will take advantage to something that was not covered. I will ask anyone of you who want to respond, is it true that unauthorized drones flying near traffic crises, fire scenes or disaster zones create hazardous conditions for responders and civilians?
▶ 1:36:47Mr. Willoughby: I will take that question. This year there have been two incidents where drones have been found in the vicinity of emergency response operations. One during the palisades fire response were a drone collided with a plane and took it out of commission for weeks during critical operations.
▶ 1:37:07Mr. Willoughby: The second most recently in texas during the flood response where a drone collided with a response helicopter, requiring it to land and it was also taken out of commission temporarily while the damage was assessed and repaired. These are just two examples that happened this year. There have been multiple institutes -- instances of drones colliding with disaster relief operations.
▶ 1:37:30Mr. Willoughby: It is of critical importance that we secure these areas beyond just establishing flight restrictions but also empowering those who are public safety or security officials with being able to respond accordingly.
▶ 1:37:41Chair Grassley: Another question. Is it true that criminal organizations use drones to smuggle drugs, weapons and contraband across our southern border into correctional facilities?
▶ 1:37:59Mr. Willoughby: Affirmatively yes, for the border. My colleagues for the prisons part of it.
▶ 1:38:21Chair Grassley: Senator schiff now.
▶ 1:39:02Chair Grassley: He's coming. Senator schiff, I'm calling on you now, if you are ready. We can wait a couple of seconds if you are not ready.
▶ 1:39:31Chair Grassley: When you start asking your questions, I will ask you to adjourn the meeting when you are done because I have to go to another meeting.
▶ 1:39:38Sen. Schiff: Thank you for the courtesy of holding the hearing open for me. I greatly appreciate it. I will be ready in one moment. Thank you Mr. chairman.
▶ 1:40:07Sen. Schiff: I recognize the great value that uav and drone technology have for law enforcement. I can imagine a number of important productive uses as well as the risks that drug cartel and others are using drones for their nefarious purposes. Mr. willoughby, I want to ask you about a different concern.
▶ 1:40:30Sen. Schiff: We saw drones being used by dhs over los angeles during protests . My understanding is that dhs policy requires that there be privacy protections when drones are used and they capture people engaged in first amendment-protected activity among other things and that drone footage is not allowed to be released without a law enforcement purpose or some
▶ 1:41:03Sen. Schiff: Other legitimate analyzed and approved function. Nonetheless, drone footage that was captured over los angeles was published by the agency. Why was it published? Who made that decision and how is that consistent with dhs policy that is supposed to protect the privacy of those who are called by drone footage?
▶ 1:41:27Mr. Willoughby: Thank you for the question. I'm not familiar with the use of drones for positive law enforcement uses. I am strict on countering the drone threats in the homeland but I can get back to you with those questions.
▶ 1:41:43Sen. Schiff: If you would, I would appreciate that. I can understand legitimate law enforcement purposes but also deeply concerned about privacy interests and first amendment protected speech. As this technology proliferates, we will have to make sure we protect those vital interests of the american people. Let me ask you about a different issue and I will bring this up to the whole panel.
▶ 1:42:13Sen. Schiff: We have repeatedly seen as we have battled wildfires in california that spectators using drones have interfered with firefighting efforts. There have been collision with aircraft. They have been other times where aircraft -- there have been other times where aircraft had to be brought out of the fight until they could disable a drone or find the owner. However recurrent is that challenge?
▶ 1:42:39Sen. Schiff: What is the state of the technology to be able to disable a drone in flight or to identify where the user of the drone may be?
▶ 1:42:48Mr. Willoughby: Maybe I will start and turn it over to my colleagues afterwards. The use of drones in these image -- emergency response areas whether it is search and rescue, is prolific. Nearly every national incident that we hear about, there has been unauthorized drones flying in space interrupting authorized manned and unmanned operations.
▶ 1:43:17Mr. Willoughby: Out of abundance of caution, those manned operations are halted when there is an authorized drone -- an authorized in the area which can impact our ability to respond in a timely action.
▶ 1:43:33Mr. Willoughby: The ability to stop a drone is restricted by the current authority that we have is limited to just certain federal entities unless one of those entities is there providing a counter-uas mission, we would never be able to unstop -- to stop in unauthorized drone. I will pause to see if my colleagues have anything else.
▶ 1:43:57Mr. Torphy: That is an excellent point. It illustrates the need to expand. The field office has developed a robust relationship with l.a. County fire, l.a. County sheriff and lapd with regard to protection of wildfire areas from drones. As you know, there can be multiple wildfires in the greater los angeles area at any given time. The fbi cannot be everywhere.
▶ 1:44:26Mr. Torphy: The time is now for these agencies to get to his authorities to protect wildfires and other public safety events.
▶ 1:44:34Sen. Schiff: If you could speak to the state-of-the-art geo-fencing of drones, how capable of that -- is that of dealing with commercially available drones?
▶ 1:44:47Mr. Torphy: If you are referring to geo-fencing by the pilots, that is no longer an applicable technology. Initially some manufacturers had the attempt to prevent people from falling into areas they should not and that has changed dramatically in the past nine months. As far as our capabilities, we have effective technologies but there is no silver bullet in counter-uas.
▶ 1:45:12Sen. Schiff: Thank you Mr. chairman. I was supposed to adjourn but I'm happy to turn it back over to senator cruz.
▶ 1:45:22Sen. Cruz: Thank you Mr. chairman. As senators, our job is to anticipate, not react but anticipate emerging threats. Nobody expected flimsy japanese fighters to sink america's battleships at pearl harbor. Nobody expected 19 hijackers with box gutters to turn passenger jet into missiles on 9/11.
▶ 1:45:51Sen. Cruz: Today I fear we are making the same mistake with drones. Nobody is expecting them to cause catastrophic damage. But sadly it's only a matter of time. The drone was once a novelty. Now it is a weapon, a scout, a smuggler, a spy, a delivery system for terror.
▶ 1:46:22Sen. Cruz: Drones pose an immediate and growing threat to our national security. They can attack civilians, smuggle deadly contraband, assassinate leaders, collided with planes and destroy buildings. War has always foreshadowed the next generation of violence. And we see it with drones. What starts on the battlefield never stays there.
▶ 1:46:54Sen. Cruz: It comes home. This is the face of modern warfare. Not a tank. Not a missile. A soldier holding a drone.
▶ 1:47:13Sen. Cruz: In ukraine a soldier with a $400 drone can destroy a $4 million tank or a $100 million fighter jet. One drone operator can do more damage than an entire infantry squad.
▶ 1:47:33Sen. Cruz: In ukraine drones have become the dominant tool of war, flooding the skies, destroying expensive war equipment, targeting civilians and overwhelming defenses. We see the same in the middle east.
▶ 1:47:57Sen. Cruz: You are looking at the iron dome intercepting rockets over israel in 2021. Here's the lesson, defense is never perfect. Even the most advanced missiles shield in the world can be overwhelmed. That was 2021.
▶ 1:48:20Sen. Cruz: October 7, 2023 hamas blinded israel's radar system with swarms of drones, clearing the way for one of the most brutal terror attacks in a generation. And just months later, on april 13, 2024, iran launched over 300 drones and missiles in a coordinated, quasi-style assault, the first of its kind. This is not science fiction.
▶ 1:48:51Sen. Cruz: This is the world that our enemies are building and bringing to our doorstep here at home. In 2018 two explosive drones really assassinated venezuelan president nicolas maduro during a live speech.
▶ 1:49:14Sen. Cruz: In 2024 thomas crooks flew a drone over a trump rally site for 11 minutes scouting the grounds before his attempted assassination of president trump. That same year drones hovered over naval air station fort worth for more than two hours, on intercepted.
▶ 1:49:39Sen. Cruz: At our southern border cartels now operate drone fleets smuggling fentanyl, coordinating illegal crossings and jamming U.S. surveillance. They form specialized drone units. They have dropped bombs. They deployed jammers. Drones right now are outpacing our law enforcement at every turn.
▶ 1:50:05Sen. Cruz: In our prisons drones drop weapons, phones, and fentanyl, arming inmates and fueling the deadliest drug epidemic in american history. Here is the most dang part -- damming part.
▶ 1:50:30Sen. Cruz: Cartels right now have more dron e capabilities than american law enforcement. Let me repeat that. Cartels today have more drone capabilities than law enforcement. Mr. hardee, you work at the doj. Is it true that only a handful of federal agents under narrow legal authority in intercept or disable a drone?
▶ 1:50:58Mr. Hardee: Thank you senator. That is generally true under the 2018 act that gives dhs and doj authority to conduct detection and mitigation operations. That law limits those protection missions that protect facilities and specialized missions under very detailed requirements. Only applies to dhs and doj. It does not give authority for state and local.
▶ 1:51:37Senator Cruz: Is it true that law enforcement is legally barred from taking action?
▶ 1:51:45Mr. Hardee: It could depend on the particular facts in an extreme situation but generally they are not authorized under the laws to use the types of detection technology that could implicate walls like the wiretap act. There are also prohibitions under the aircraft sabotage act and other laws that apply to them.
▶ 1:52:05Mr. Hardee: Each case would have to be looked at but there is a lack of clarity in the law that inhibits their operations and investment in debt kind of technology and their cooperation with fbi and dhs to engage in the training and to develop the types of approaches to this problem that expanding their authority would allow.
▶ 1:52:26Sen. Cruz: Let me be clear, the current state of the law limiting the ability of law enforcement to act proactively to protect people's lives is utterly insane and unacceptable and we need to address that and correct it. The current state of the law means that a texas sheriff today has fewer tools to stop a hostile drone than the cartel lieutenant does launching it from across the river.
▶ 1:52:54Sen. Cruz: It means a police officer can watch a drone deliver fentanyl but has limited authority to stop it. If congress fails to act, the consequences will not be theoretical. They will be measured in lives lost, drugs delivered, and attacks perpetuated against our nation.
▶ 1:53:17Sen. Cruz: As the chairman of the senate commerce committee which has jurisdiction over aviation and is a longtime member of this committee, the judiciary committee which has jurisdiction over criminal law, I have seen this threat from both sides. Mr. willoughby, as deputy director of of the counter-uas program at dhs, you are on the cutting edge of drone mitigation planning.
▶ 1:53:42Sen. Cruz: What are the current legal and jurisdictional challenges between agencies as well as between federal and local law enforcement regarding mitigating drone threats?
▶ 1:53:51Mr. Willoughby: Thank you for the question. To your first point about federal agencies, there lacks any sort of mutual support provision for dhs to help doj or dod and vice versa even though we are co-located in high-risk areas. Think about the southern border or dense metropolitan areas. If Mr. torphy were to say I need your help in mitigating this drone, I would have to say sorry I cannot help you under the current framework of the law.
▶ 1:54:21Mr. Willoughby: There are exceptions to that. What we are looking for is some sort of explicit neutral support provision that would allow dhs, the t doj, dod, recognizing that there is limited capacity and requires a specialized and trained person to operate the support.
▶ 1:54:39Sen. Cruz: What specific steps should congress take to keep up with and prevent the threats posed by drones?
▶ 1:54:50Mr. Willoughby: Starting from an authoritative perspectives we need more cooks in the kitchen, which is not a phrase I use lightly. We need more trained personnel with the capabilities and countermeasures to detect and mitigate drones if they pose risks to their jurisdictions. We at the federal level cannot be everywhere all the time.
▶ 1:55:12Mr. Willoughby: Just using the border as example, it is 2000 miles of linear border and we have to work closely with state and local partners for a range of law enforcement activity and drone response should be no exception. Think about the department of public safety in texas. We work with them from a border security perspective but we cannot wear with her from a jurisdictional perspective. That has to be rectified and empowering state and local authorities to do that was the top of mind.
▶ 1:55:41Mr. Torphy: Thank you for the questions. You touched on another point which is that there really is no framework. I feared that there is a slipping away from the law enforcement community and confusion in the private sector about what is legal and who can do what and what circumstances and we have seen hints is that today. Passage of legislation to make this very clear is essential.
▶ 1:56:05Mr. Torphy: That will depend on setting a security framework and critically the training certification of these law enforcement officers. Thanks to the seed that was planted through the executive order on june 6, it directed the fbi to establish the national training center so the seed has been planted.
▶ 1:56:26Mr. Torphy: We are going to run our first counter-uas course in october for select state and local law enforcement with priority on the fifa world cup jurisdictions. This is just detection because we cannot train them on the statute because they are not allowed to implement those authorities. But the fbi has taken that step and we are ready to go.
▶ 1:56:51Mr. Hardee: As my colleagues have said, we need legal clarity at the very minimum. The expansion of those authorities so we can work together to improve and expand technologies. The other issue this committee is examining is ensuring we have a comprehensive approach and criminal code for drone offenses.
▶ 1:57:19Sen. Cruz: Is the chairman of commerce -- as the chairman of commerce, I recognize the risk of poorly organized counter-uas efforts can posed to civilian aircraft and civilian airports. How can we harmonize and mitigate the drone threat while keeping commercial aviation safe?
▶ 1:57:41Mr. Willoughby: It is a partnership with the faa it has been since 2018 and it has maintained over the course of the last seven years. Every deployment is coordinated with the faa. Every piece of technology at every location, we share with them and we do our best to mitigate any impacts to the national airspace system while using this equipment.
▶ 1:58:04Mr. Willoughby: Recognize there is often competition between our need to conduct these operations and maintain that safety apparatus on the faa's side. It has been a work in progress over time to the point where we have such a great relationship where we have individual points of contact that we can reach out to at a moments notice to get any sort of last-minute operation approved and to de- conflict or issue.
▶ 1:58:27Sen. Cruz: Thank you, gentlemen. This has been helpful. It is the duty of congress not only to react when evil strikes, but to anticipate it and to stay one step ahead of darkest hearts on earth. Drones will be used by our enemies.
▶ 1:58:54Sen. Cruz: If congress fails to act on the threat of drones, the consequences will not be theoretical. They will be measured in lives lost, drugs delivered, and horrific attacks perpetuated against our nation. If congress does not act to stop this threat, who will? This concludes our hearing. I want to thank each witness for taking the time to share your experience, expertise and perspectives.
▶ 1:59:24Sen. Cruz: Written questions can be submitted to the record one week from today and I will ask the witnesses to return questions to the committee within two weeks of receiving the questions. And with that, this hearing is adjourned. [captioning performed by the national captioning institute, which is responsible for its caption content and accuracy. Visit ncicap.org]