▶ 0:16:05Chair Ernst: I call the committee on small business and entrepreneurship to owner -- to order. The purpose of the meeting is to consider president donald trump's nominee for -- william kirk, thank you for your willingness to serve. To give folks a quick run of show I'm going to make a brief opening statement and then I will turn to ranking member markey to do the same and then we will introduce the nominee and I will administer the oath.
▶ 0:16:36Chair Ernst: After the oath, Mr. kirk will be recognized for his statement. His statement will be followed by questions from our members, alternating between each side. I now recognize myself for five minutes for an opening statement. Again, welcome to the committee and thank you Mr. kirk for your willingness to serve in this role. Today we are considering Mr. william kirk as the nominee for a very important position of spa -- of sba's inspector general.
▶ 0:17:07Chair Ernst: I am impressed with your strong track record and I appreciate the time you have spent meeting with me and my colleagues prior to this hearing. I want to take a minute to recognize your family and friends who are here supporting you today. I especially want to welcome your wife and four children. Thank you for being here. Mr.
▶ 0:17:31Chair Ernst: Kirk, thank you for embracing the committee's standard get extensive vetting of your experience for today's hearing and a cutting -- upcoming vote on your nomination. The role of inspector general is critical and unique, requiring complete independence and impartiality to ensure effective oversight and accountability at the agency. Throughout my career, I have prioritized illuminating waste, fraud and abuse in government.
▶ 0:17:59Chair Ernst: I appreciate the demands and challenges of the ig role, having served as a county auditor, examining books and making sure everything was above board. I continued that work and in addition to being chair of this committee, I serve as chair of the inspectors general caucus and I strongly value the partnership between ig's and congress and the value they provide to the country.
▶ 0:18:24Chair Ernst: At sba consider elite -- specifically, thorough investigations to make sure those who exploited the covid relief programs are brought to justice in their illicit gains are returned to the american taxpayer. In 2020 small businesses needed help and the american taxpayers graciously provided it. It is completely unacceptable that bad actors took advantage of this emergency assistance.
▶ 0:18:49Chair Ernst: The sba's office of inspector general estimated more than $200 billion in potentially fraudulent covid relief advances and loans were dispersed in the years following the pandemic. Taxpayers want to know where their money went, yet the federal government has done little to hold these criminals accountable. This must change.
▶ 0:19:12Chair Ernst: I am proud to have worked across the aisle to pass out of committee earlier this year, s-1199, which extends the statute of limitations for crimes against the covid era programs and gives the sba ig the time necessary to fully investigate and hold fraudsters accountable. Mr.
▶ 0:19:35Chair Ernst: Kirk, I shared with you my belief that we must take substantial action to identify and eliminate fraud, waste and abuse. I look forward to working with you to recover these funds. I especially appreciate that the day's nominee for inspector general brings first-hand experience to the ig role. Mr.
▶ 0:19:56Chair Ernst: Kirk previously served for three years at the environmental protection agency oig as deputy counsel to the ig and as acting counsel to the ig. While working for the epa, Mr. kirk received an exceptional service award for his hard work, dedication and invaluable contributions to the office of counsel. At oig, demonstrate an acceptable -- exceptional character and utmost integrity.
▶ 0:20:25Chair Ernst: The office of the inspector general at the sba is essential to the agency oversight and I am pleased that the president acted swiftly with this nomination. Thank you Mr. kirk for being here and I look forward to your testimony. Now I recognize ranking member markey for his opening statement.
▶ 0:20:41Ranking Member Markey: Thank you madam chair. Today we will hear from president trump's nominee, william kirk. We thank you Mr. kirk for being here today. I would like to take note that we are only here because earlier in the year, president illegally -- president trump illegally fired more than a dozen inspectors general, including the sba's previous inspector general, who notably was
▶ 0:21:12Ranking Member Markey: Nominated by president trump in 2017 and was effective, diligent , nonpartisan and independent. He investigated both the first trump administration and the biden administration. Eight years after nominating him, president trump decided to break the law and purge him along with many other ig's across the government just days after his second term began.
▶ 0:21:40Ranking Member Markey: He did this because he knows impartial watchdogs can compromise his agenda which runs afoul of the law at every turn. Now as we predicted, he is filling ig offices across the government with maga loyalists.
▶ 0:21:58Ranking Member Markey: President trump nominated a former republican congressman who according to reports use taxpayer dollars to enrich people in his personal life at the department of veterans affairs, he nominated cheryl mason, a former trump appointee who committed -- who prevented potential whistleblowers from coming forward and was part of trump's plan to got the v.a..
▶ 0:22:26Ranking Member Markey: President trump has shamelessly nominated loyalists to ig positions at the department of agriculture, health, human services and even -- this president clearly does not care about nonpartisan oversight. The I in ig should stand for many things like independent or impartial. President trump really thinks it should stand for illegal or in trump's pocket.
▶ 0:22:53Ranking Member Markey: Now for the sba, president trump has nominated Mr. kirk to serve as a watchdog. His record of independence gives no assurance he will be different from the rest. As the associate vice president for residential -- in notre dame, Mr.
▶ 0:23:08Ranking Member Markey: Kirk took a stand against the university decision to reward president barack obama an honorary degree in 2009, boycotting a graduation ceremony because a democratic president is attending does not sound very un-partisan to me. I will also note that as soon as president trump took office last year, Mr. kirk left his nonpartisan job at the environmental protection agency ig office for a high-ranking political appointment at the department of education.
▶ 0:23:41Ranking Member Markey: The war president trump has waged on the department of education has been destructive to the well-being of our nation's schools and in addition to being blatantly illegal, the fact that Mr. kirk jumped at the opportunity to help president trump destroy the department of education tells us a lot about where his loyalties lie. Inspectors general are supposed to be nonpartisan, independent and should never support one partisan agenda over another. I hope that Mr.
▶ 0:24:09Ranking Member Markey: Kirk proves today that he will take this job seriously and not simply do president trump's bidding. However, given the past and what we know about his other ig nominees, I have serious concerns about this nomination, so I thank you madam chair.
▶ 0:24:26Chair Ernst: Thank you ranking member markey. Next I would like to recognize senator hawley to introduce our nominees. You are recognized.
▶ 0:24:35Sen. Hawley: Thank you very much. It is my honor to introduce my friend william kirk. I'm glad that president trump made the very wise choice to nominate bill as the inspector general of the small business administration and as you listen to him today, I'm pretty sure you'll agree. Bill has devoted his career and considerable intellect to public service.
▶ 0:24:58Sen. Hawley: He has proven his selfless dedication in oversight decisions by conducting investigations while counseling leaders in federal agencies, exactly the right set of skills for the inspector general post. Bill studied business -- business and accountancy at the university of notre dame and graduated from notre dame law school. He spent more than two decades serving students in the higher education administration before coming to D.C. for the higher call of serving.
▶ 0:25:29Sen. Hawley: At the department of education he served as deputy general counsel and later returned as the acting chief of staff for a job he still holds today. He is particularly well-suited for the inspector general role because of his years of experience at the epa where he served as deputy counsel to the inspector general and acting counsel to the inspector general. At both epa and the department of education, he did exemplary work. He was fiercely independent, honest, reliable.
▶ 0:25:58Sen. Hawley: He guided a lot of investigations with a steady hand and a guide work -- and a kind word. He focused on the law, not on advancing any political agenda and most importantly, bill is a man rooted in his faith and his family. He finds his identity there and not the praise of any politician or any job title. His character, I suspect goes back to his early days.
▶ 0:26:24Sen. Hawley: He grew up in new york in a household of six other siblings where he quickly learned duty, integrity, honesty and commitment and it is because of those volumes -- those values that he is here with his wife and his four children. The chair already introduce them but I will do it again. Congratulations on getting out of class today.
▶ 0:26:52Sen. Hawley: They join him here in the audience and I know they are proud of him and they should be. The role of inspector general is so important for any government, I want to underscore something the chair just said. The sba oversees billions of dollars and you don't have to look that far back to see how important this is. At the height of covid the government allotted to sba spent over $1 trillion.
▶ 0:27:18Sen. Hawley: It is important to have an inspector general who is carefully tracking everything that the government has spent in providing accountability. I know bill kirk has the character and experience to do this job. It is an honor to have you here and support your nomination and I hope my colleagues will agree.
▶ 0:27:35Chair Ernst: Thank you senator hawley. Mr. kirk, rise please. It is the tradition of our committee to swearing nominees. Please raise your right hand and answer the following questions. Do you solemnly swear to tell the truth, the whole truth and nothing but the truth so help you god?
▶ 0:27:54Mr. Kirk: I do.
▶ 0:27:55Chair Ernst: Should you be confirmed as inspector general of the sba, are you willing to appear and testify before any duly constituted committee of congress when requested to do so?
▶ 0:28:05Mr. Kirk: I am.
▶ 0:28:07Chair Ernst: Are you willing to provide such information as requested by any such committee?
▶ 0:28:11Mr. Kirk: I am.
▶ 0:28:13Chair Ernst: Thank you, you may take your seat. I would like to take a moment to explain our lighting system. There are three lights in front of you. Green means go, yellow means you need to wrap it up and read means that time has expired. I ask him to miss consent that the nominee's full statement be included in the record. So ordered. As your written testimony has been made part of the record, the committee asks you limit your oral remarks to five minutes.
▶ 0:28:46Chair Ernst: Mr. kirk, you are not recognized for five minutes for your testimony -- you are now recognized for five been it's for your testimony.
▶ 0:28:53Mr. Kirk: Good afternoon. Thank you for the opportunity to appear before you today as president trump's nominee for inspector general of the U.S. small business administration. I am honored and humbled by this nomination and I thank president trump for his expression of confidence in me. I approach this opportunity to surf with a profound sense of gratitude.
▶ 0:29:17Mr. Kirk: I thank god for the gift that is my catholic faith that leads me to love, honor and serve him in this world with the hope of being with him in the next. I want to thank and honor my departed parents who worked -- who work tirelessly devoted to raising their chat -- seven children to be faithful, generous, productive and patriotic members of society. I also think my siblings and their families and their in-laws and friends and colleagues for their unwavering support and encouragement throughout my life.
▶ 0:29:48Mr. Kirk: I am blessed beyond measure and grateful to my wife for her love and support and sacrifices she makes for me and our four children, all of whom are here today. President trump has made clear his unwavering commitment to fighting fraud, waste and abuse in the federal government. I look forward to joining this fight by applying my practical business and executive management experience to leading the sba office of inspector general.
▶ 0:30:16Mr. Kirk: My first job upon graduating from the university of notre dame with a degree in accountancy was at price waterhouse rise -- where I was a staff auditor. Working essentially full-time during law school, I was hired upon graduation to serve as an assistant and then associate vice president of the university with a responsibility for supervising and managing -- the disciplinary office holding students to meaningful accountability for violating university rules and regulations
▶ 0:30:46Mr. Kirk: . The extensive housing and residency system, widely regarded to be the most successful among such programs in the country and the university depletes department where I -- university police department where I oversaw security, detectives and personnel. -- I also managed their extensive real estate investments, serving as the vice president for legal affairs and as the university chief compliance officer.
▶ 0:31:18Mr. Kirk: I've been privileged to provide leadership and operational supervision for multiple departments in a global forensic engineering, architecture and material sciences consulting firm and to lead a foundation that provided scholarship assistance to elementary and secondary schools in kansas.
▶ 0:31:34Mr. Kirk: With several partners are worked on the development of a model of sustainable equity financing intended to provide patient capital to foster long-term stability for small and midsize businesses who were committed to ethical practices and upholding the dignity of their workers. I've been privileged to be a public servant first with the department of education as deputy general counsel and then with the U.S. environmental protection agency office of the inspector general, providing counsel to the inspector general.
▶ 0:32:02Mr. Kirk: In these roles I supported and provided independent legal and policy advice to the ig and various component offices. -- as the acting chief of staff to the acting general counsel. My professional record demonstrates my integrity and the skills, knowledge, judgment and demeanor required of inspector general.
▶ 0:32:29Mr. Kirk: As the nominee designate for the sba, I am committed to upholding the values that make our nation strong and look forward to the opportunity to serve my country and in particular the 36 million small businesses that are the lifeblood of our economy. Should I be confirmed, I will maintain a steadfast commitment to fairness ensuring all investigations and audits are conducted without prejudice, bias or political favor. I am committed to ensuring fairness, accountability and opportunity for all.
▶ 0:32:59Mr. Kirk: I will uphold the law and I pledge to execute the responsibilities of the inspector general with impartiality and objectivity, fully complying with the inspector general act. I ensure this committee might work will be nonpartisan, driven solely by facts and the pursuit of truth to ensure the small business up -- small business administration operates with integrity.
▶ 0:33:23Mr. Kirk: If confirmed I will work tirelessly to root out fraud, waste and abuse and will promote accountability and the success of america's small businesses. If I may say how important it is for the ig to ensure to help small businesses that need help recovering from disasters like hurricane helene the california wildfires.
▶ 0:33:45Mr. Kirk: I am committed to maintaining a cordial working relationship with this committee, congress as a whole and with the administration while also demonstrating independence in fact and appearance that is so important to the role of inspector general. I want to thank president trump for the invitation to assist him in ensuring that our government serves the american people.
▶ 0:34:05Chair Ernst: Thank you Mr. kirk. As you know, I serve as the chair of the senate inspector general caucus and throughout my career, I have made it a top priority to root out waste, fraud and abuse. That is why maintaining an ongoing dialogue with the oig office is one of my central concerns. Will you commit to engaging with congress and working with me to ensure that tax dollars are not wasted?
▶ 0:34:35Mr. Kirk: Thank you for the question. I will commit to working with the congress and this committee to do all I can to help root out fraud, waste and abuse.
▶ 0:34:45Chair Ernst: Great answer. What are your top priorities in this particular role? What is your plan for aligning this with your statutory responsibilities required by congress?
▶ 0:34:57Mr. Kirk: As you know, the role of an inspector general is provided by the inspector general act, to supervise audits and investigations and I'm committed to ensuring we can reduce waste, fraud and abuse in the ig itself and government contracts. I look forward to optimizing the budget of the ig and the sba.
▶ 0:35:20Mr. Kirk: As the committee has shared with me, their concern about our investigative abilities, I want to make sure we modernize the intake, reduce the backlog and ensure that we have data analytics available to ensure investigations are conducted so we can root out fraud, waste and abusez.
▶ 0:35:36Chair Ernst: Thank you. You talked extensively about investigations and the ig's office has estimated there is over 200 billion dollars in suspected covid fraud. And the ig has said they have over 100,000 leads on fraud cases.
▶ 0:36:00Chair Ernst: I know the sba oig investigators may not have as many cases on their dockets as others but the sba oig consistently asks for additional funding. Will you commit to reviewing the caseloads, to maximize fraud recovery?
▶ 0:36:15Mr. Kirk: Thank you for the question. I am committed to ensuring we have efficient operation of the investigative arm and I look forward to understanding that area better as soon as I get into the role. The audit investigation role is critically important and needs to be as efficient as possible when providing those services.
▶ 0:36:35Chair Ernst: A key concern I've had over the past years involves the sba oig handling of disaster investigations. You mentioned these in your opening remarks. I am disappointed in the lack of progress in supporting rural communities. Additionally I believe the office has not shown sufficient commitment to finding and remedying the root causes of recent disaster shortfalls.
▶ 0:37:03Chair Ernst: If appointed, will you commit to a full investigation of the sba handling of disaster relief, including the causes of the recent funding shortfall?
▶ 0:37:11Mr. Kirk: Thank you. The funding shortfall was a tragic situation. The opportunity -- one of the primary pillars in the role of the sba is to provide capital for small businesses, counseling, contracting opportunities and disaster relief. The sba was unable to do so because of a funding shortfall and that is a serious situation.
▶ 0:37:34Mr. Kirk: I'm committed to assisting the department ensure that does not happen again to make sure we are providing the full services of the sba.
▶ 0:37:45Chair Ernst: It caught so many of us off guard and as the ranking member at that time I would have thought I would have been notified about a funding shortfall. We were not aware of it. I appreciate you and your concern about the issue. That will conclude my questions. For now we will go to ranking member markey.
▶ 0:38:06Chair Ernst: Thank you madam chair --
▶ 0:38:08Ranking Member Markey: Thank you madam chair. Mr. kirk, you said your job will be to oversee the small business administration. By adhering to the law. I wholeheartedly agree. The ig is supposed to be neutral and independent, like an umpire, not inventing his or her own strikes him.
▶ 0:38:37Ranking Member Markey: I would like to ask about your view on a couple of pitches from the trump administration. President trump fired the previous inspector general at sba along with a dozen other inspectors general across government late on a friday night back in january of this year.
▶ 0:38:59Ranking Member Markey: When the president failed to provide any notification or justification to congress, did he comply with section three of the inspector general act of 1978? I will read that to you since you might not have that one in front of you. Let me read the text of the inspector general act of 1978.
▶ 0:39:20Ranking Member Markey: If an inspector general is removed from office or is transferred to another position, the president shall communicate in writing the rationale including detail and case specific reasons for any such removal or transfer to both houses of congress, not later than 30 days before the removal or transfer. Do you think the president complied with the law?
▶ 0:39:51Mr. Kirk: Thank you ranking member. That is a matter that I understand is currently involved in litigation and as such it would be inappropriate for me to respond further.
▶ 0:40:04Ranking Member Markey: Let me move on. You previously worked for the formal environmental protection agency inspector general -- former environmental protection agency inspector general who was also purged in january of this year. Do you think president trump had a legitimate reason to fire him, and do you think he was fire lawfully?
▶ 0:40:27Mr. Kirk: Again, thank you for the question. These are matters currently involving pending litigation and it would be inappropriate to respond or offer more information.
▶ 0:40:39Ranking Member Markey: You worked for Mr. o'donnell for three years and you surely know his work. The president was required to provide a substantive rationale for his dismissal and he did not do that. So you don't have a view on the technical aspects of it, that notification was fulfilled?
▶ 0:41:01Mr. Kirk: Thank you for the question. As I mentioned, the matter is pending litigation and it would be inappropriate to respond further.
▶ 0:41:10Ranking Member Markey: That is very troubling to me because we clearly have multiple issues that have to be dealt with in a way that does reflect the law as it has been written and should be carried out.
▶ 0:41:35Ranking Member Markey: Let me move on to a question of whether or not you intend on looking at the role doge has played in the sba since january of this year. Whether or not they have been complying with the law.
▶ 0:41:59Mr. Kirk: I'm sorry, I wasn't sure if there was a question.
▶ 0:42:04Ranking Member Markey: Doge has been inside of the administration for the last six months. You are going to be looking at the role that -- are you going to be looking at the role that doge has played?
▶ 0:42:22Mr. Kirk: I'm committed to looking into concerns you have ordered concerns of this committee -- you have, or concerns of this committee.
▶ 0:42:32Ranking Member Markey: You've been serving in a high-level political position since march, chief of staff to the general counsel. -- moving the student loan portfolio to sba. Putting aside how disastrous that would be for millions of student borrowers, do you believe that move could have been legal with think -- without congressional authorization?
▶ 0:42:57Mr. Kirk: Thank you. I came to the department of education back in march and the intention was to capitalize on my administrative and manager experience. Many of those decisions were made prior to my arrival and I've been responsible for administering the office and helping redesign workflows. That is all I can share on that question.
▶ 0:43:22Ranking Member Markey: Do you believe it is lawful for the president to quote, wind down the department of education as an agent's that conch as an agency that congress authorized and created funding for, without getting authorization from congress?
▶ 0:43:37Mr. Kirk: I look forward to this role as the inspector general and in that role, I am committed to conducting and supervising audits and investigations. I don't believe my opinions on those matters are relevant to the work I would be doing as the inspector general.
▶ 0:43:53Ranking Member Markey: Are you saying under oath that you did not memo or legal guidance related to the efforts to wind down the department of education?
▶ 0:44:08Mr. Kirk: Thank you. I am not aware of any role I had in any of those decisions. I came in march of this year and many of those decisions were made prior to that time.
▶ 0:44:17Chair Ernst: Thank you. We will turn now to sinister husted.
▶ 0:44:31Sen. Husted: Thank you and thank you to your family. I wanted to touch on something president trump did in his first term, he issued an executive order that authorized use of artificial intelligence to look into sba loan procedures.
▶ 0:44:50Sen. Husted: It was a detection tool to look at systemic fraud potentially being used to steal money from the federal government through the pandemic paycheck protection program and the economic disaster loan program. We've now discovered 200 billion dollars in fraudulent payments came from that process. I want to put this in context.
▶ 0:45:23Sen. Husted: 200 billion dollars, enough to pay for the grocery bill of 20 million families for an entire year. It's enough money to buy a new car for everyone in ohio and michigan combined, enough to buy a new home for families in san francisco and boston. It is an incredible amount of money.
▶ 0:45:48Sen. Husted: The sba did not use the tools at their disposal to track down fraud and I would like your reaction to that and to understand what your commitment is to using every technology tool we have available to us to track down fraud and abuse and to reassure the american public that government actually works for them.
▶ 0:46:09Mr. Kirk: Thank you for the question. You raise an important issue, the use of technology -- it was a tremendous opportunity.
▶ 0:46:25Mr. Kirk: What we can do is leverage -- we have those tools available to us and with constricted resources and availability, we can make absolutely good use to root out waste, fraud, and abuse.
▶ 0:46:46Sen. Husted: I want to make sure we heard you correctly. We have your commitment that you are going to command that the agency does this?
▶ 0:46:55Mr. Kirk: I am committed to ensuring the agency and the oig use every means at their disposal to appropriately root out waste, fraud, and abuse.
▶ 0:47:06Sen. Husted: Great. I would hope that we could have you back sometime to hear about some success stories and how we have hopefully prevented fraud and that we've caught those who perpetrated it and I'm sure they will all be watching this hearing today to know that they shouldn't do it because we are going to catch them and we are going to prosecute them.
▶ 0:47:30Mr. Kirk: I would look forward to that opportunity and I look forward to bringing very good news to you.
▶ 0:47:36Sen. Husted: I yield back my time.
▶ 0:47:38Chair Ernst: We will now recognize senator hirono of hawaii.
▶ 0:47:43Sen. Hirono: Thank you madam chair. Welcome Mr. kirk. To determine the fitness to serve for any of the nominees that come before any of the committees, I asked the following two questions. Since you became a legal adult, have you ever made unlawful requests for sexual favors or committed any harassment or assault of a sexual nature?
▶ 0:48:07Mr. Kirk: I have not.
▶ 0:48:09Sen. Hirono: Have you ever faced discipline for this kind of conduct?
▶ 0:48:13Mr. Kirk: I have not.
▶ 0:48:14Sen. Hirono: You are just asked about 200 billion doll -- $200 billion in fraud as part of the federal programs during covid. You do know that it is not a set figure. It is something your predecessor noted in a report and suggested that the ig investigate. You responded as though that was a set figure but it is just the potential.
▶ 0:48:45Sen. Hirono: Should you be confirmed, are you going to investigate and ascertain how much in waste and fraud actually occurred during covid?
▶ 0:48:53Mr. Kirk: Thank you for the question. Whatever amount of fraud has occurred is too much. $200 billion -- that amount is of grave concern to me.
▶ 0:49:06Sen. Hirono: That you intend to investigate? And with fairness because you are going to be fair and you have no political axes to grind.
▶ 0:49:21Mr. Kirk: I am committed to unwavering adherence to principles of independence and objectivity in conducting audits and investigations. I will maintain absolute neutrality in oversight operations.
▶ 0:49:38Sen. Hirono: It is confirmed then that you consider the ig office to be independent of sba leadership and the president and you will be totally independent.
▶ 0:49:50Mr. Kirk: Yes. The inspector general reports both to the administrator and to the congress under the statute, but it is an independent entity and it is my intention to maintain neutrality.
▶ 0:50:07Sen. Hirono: The reason I ask is because it is very clear that president trump likes to nominate people who will be 100% loyal to him, not necessarily to the ig statute or anyone else but loyal to him so I want to clear that your loyalty is to the constitution, to doing your job in a nonpolitical and fair way.
▶ 0:50:33Mr. Kirk: I am absolutely committed to upholding the law and providing complete independent --
▶ 0:50:39Sen. Hirono: I don't mean to rush you but I don't have that much time. When you talk about upholding the law, we have a president that believes anything he does is legal. Would that be your perspective that whatever he does is legal?
▶ 0:50:53Mr. Kirk: As I mentioned, I will uphold the law. I will be objective in my application of the law and the facts that are presented to me.
▶ 0:51:04Sen. Hirono: Who determines whether what he does is illegal because the president thinks everything he does is legal. Is that whose you would -- is that who you would follow as far as regarding the legality of what is happening or not? Or would you be independent of his attitude?
▶ 0:51:24Mr. Kirk: I will uphold the law.
▶ 0:51:28Sen. Hirono: That is not very sufficient. We have a president that says he is the law. Let me ask you this way. Do you believe the rule of law should apply to the president?
▶ 0:51:40Mr. Kirk: The rule of law applies to all citizens and I will uphold the law in my role as inspector general.
▶ 0:51:46Sen. Hirono: You are saying it should apply to the president.
▶ 0:51:49Mr. Kirk: As I mentioned, it applies to all americans.
▶ 0:51:53Sen. Hirono: You don't want to use the word president? Is there some reason you can't say including the president of the united states?
▶ 0:52:02Mr. Kirk: The rule of law applies to all of us.
▶ 0:52:05Sen. Hirono: It is very unusual that you can't say that it applies to the president. What can I say when you are being nominated by a president who believes the rule of law does not apply to him and demands 100% loyalty? I'm curious to know whether you will come to your position should you be nominated if confirmed in a fair way.
▶ 0:52:33Sen. Hirono: For example, do you think the elimination of the department of education is legal without congressional action?
▶ 0:52:43Mr. Kirk: Thank you for the question. It is the role of the inspector general to conduct audits and investigations. A hypothetical as you mentioned is not something I feel is.
▶ 0:52:57Sen. Hirono: It is not a hypothetical question because it is what he wants to do. He fired practically half of the staff of the department of education. Do you think that is legal? You worked for the apartment of education prior. Was that legal?
▶ 0:53:17Mr. Kirk: I worked at the department of education in administrative and management roles and I was responsible for assisting the general council administering the office.
▶ 0:53:29Sen. Hirono: You had nothing to do with any discussion relating to the elimination of the department of education by executive order, or the firing of half the people. You also refused to answer certain questions because of pending litigation. There are 200 lawsuits involved challenging with the president is doing but that does not mean we are going to get a lot of answers from you.
▶ 0:53:56Chair Ernst: He aske -- chair
▶ 0:54:00Ernst: Next, do you have any additional questions senator markey? Ok, we will go to a second round of questions and I will start with ranking member markey.
▶ 0:54:19Ranking Member Markey: You previously worked at the epa inspector general's office. He told my staff you did not participate in audits or investigations and only checked reports for legal sufficiency. Do you have any experience conducting audits or investigations from prior work?
▶ 0:54:39Mr. Kirk: Thank you. I've been involved in oversight work in various forms for decades. I began my career as an auditor and accounting staff member at the international accounting firm of price waterhouse. I do have some experience.
▶ 0:54:59Ranking Member Markey: Are you familiar with sba's programs?
▶ 0:55:05Mr. Kirk: I have tried to familiarize myself with those programs.
▶ 0:55:13Ranking Member Markey: Are you familiar with the paycheck protection program?
▶ 0:55:18Mr. Kirk: I am.
▶ 0:55:19Ranking Member Markey: Are you familiar with the affiliation programs for not for profits?
▶ 0:55:27Mr. Kirk: I am not completely familiar with that. I am generally familiar with the program as it was implemented to assist small businesses suffering from the pandemic.
▶ 0:55:38Ranking Member Markey: Are you familiar with your predecessor's determination that planned parenthood met the affiliation requirements and that it was entitled to forgiveness?
▶ 0:55:48Mr. Kirk: I am aware of that.
▶ 0:55:49Ranking Member Markey: Do you agree with that decision?
▶ 0:55:52Mr. Kirk: Thank you for the question. I don't know enough about that matter. I have not read the report involved in that regard. I don't really have an opinion on that one way or the other.
▶ 0:56:04Ranking Member Markey: Since you've committed to calling balls and strikes as you assess sba's compliance with the law, I hope you will uphold this clear reading and not engage in politically motivated attacks on planned parenthood.
▶ 0:56:24Ranking Member Markey: You're boycotting of president obama's commencement speech at notre dame, you can imagine how concerned a lot of people might be with some pre-existing bias you might bring towards planned parenthood. Could you speak to that issue?
▶ 0:56:40Mr. Kirk: Thank you for the question. As I mentioned I am committed to serving as an independent objective and neutral nonpartisan inspector general. That is my role and that is what I look forward to doing. My personal beliefs are not relevant to whether or not any particular organization would fit that criteria.
▶ 0:57:02Ranking Member Markey: I'm asking what weight you would give to your predecessor's determination, that planned parenthood was entitled to those benefits.
▶ 0:57:16Mr. Kirk: I don't understand the question.
▶ 0:57:20Ranking Member Markey: The point that I made earlier was that your predecessor in this position determined that planned parenthood met the ppp's affiliation requirements and was entitled to forgiveness. What weight will you give to your predecessor's determination on that matter?
▶ 0:57:47Mr. Kirk: As I am charged with -- if I am privileged to take on the role to conduct and supervise audits and investigations I would consider all of the information available to me including information previously provided.
▶ 0:58:04Ranking Member Markey: You can imagine we are concerned about a bias you might bring. Let me yield back madam chair.
▶ 0:58:20Chair Ernst: Thank you. Next we will go to senator schiff of california.
▶ 0:58:28Sen. Schiff: Thank you madam chair. Apropos, I saw a reports that charlie kirk had been shot and an event today, just awful. The increasing degree of political violence in this country is a threat to everyone.
▶ 0:58:50Sen. Schiff: I want to ask you about the firing of the other inspector generals. If you would have this position, it is important that we apply the laws as written, that you be willing to confront anyone in the executive or any other branch of government if they are acting in a way that is wasteful, abusive or illegal.
▶ 0:59:22Sen. Schiff: That requires you to be able to speak truth to power. Let me begin by your understanding of the law, as it applies to inspectors general. What is your understanding of the law. What does the law were choir before a president could fire you if you became inspector general?
▶ 0:59:44Mr. Kirk: Thank you for the question. I appreciate your acknowledgment of the role as inspector general as being objective. I am committed to objectivity and neutrality in the role. As I mentioned previously, the matter of the termination of the other inspectors general is currently pending litigation and I think it's inappropriate to speak to that matter.
▶ 1:00:13Sen. Schiff: I think it is appropriate and necessary to speak to this. We need some assurance that in inspector general will apply the law as is written, not apply the law as the executive would like it to have been written or would like it to be. As that law is on the books, and the supreme court has not somehow found that law unconstitutional, I think it is deeply important.
▶ 1:00:46Sen. Schiff: Mr. kirk, if a law requires notice, how can you have any confidence that should you find the administration engaged in some misconduct that you will not simply be fired as a result of your findings?
▶ 1:01:05Mr. Kirk: Thank you for the question. As I mentioned I am committed to unwavering adherence to the principles of independence and objectivity.
▶ 1:01:23Sen. Schiff: We had a hearing last week with members of the board of the nuclear regulatory commission and I asked them, the three members of the board, are you confident that if you were to decide a nuclear actor -- nuclear reactor was unsafe and you said so, are you confident that you would not be fired?
▶ 1:01:50Sen. Schiff: Can you be confident that you can make that decision and still hold your position? The first two commissioners said candidly, no, I could not be confident that I would not be fired and the chairman basically said I want to make the right decision of the merits of whatever happens but it would be speculative, what would happen should I make that decision. The problem with that being speculative is it should not be speculative.
▶ 1:02:18Sen. Schiff: You should know if you do your job, regardless of how you are finding -- how your funding cuts, that you will not be fired as a result. That there is some safeguard in law or practice or both that will insulate you. Otherwise you are always going to be looking over your shoulder. I understand your reluctance to answer the question here. There is no reason you can't but I understand.
▶ 1:02:44Sen. Schiff: But if you are unwilling to answer a question like that before confirmation, I don't know how you are going to answer that question after confirmation. And this is the challenge we have. It is not a reflection on your background. It is a reflection on this moment and the need now more than ever to have inspectors general who are willing to say it like it is, even if it displeases people in congress or the administration or anywhere else. I yield back.
▶ 1:03:14Chair Ernst: Seeing no other -- excuse me. Senator hickenlooper you are recognized for five minutes.
▶ 1:03:24Sen. Hickenlooper: Thank you madam chair and thank you Mr. kirk for your time. In the last few years, the sba has faced real complex issues in terms of fraud and abuse. I think americans are counting on us to make sure that tax revenues, money is spent appropriately, that fraudsters are held accountable.
▶ 1:03:59Sen. Hickenlooper: Your roles in higher red don't appear to be primarily legal -- in higher ed don't appear to be primarily legal. Can you describe your experience in terms of conducting large-scale audits or investigations and how that experience could prepare you to leave the sba inspector general's office?
▶ 1:04:20Mr. Kirk: Thank you for the question. The role of the inspector general and that person in particular is to supervise and conduct audits and investigations, to recommend policies.
▶ 1:04:38Mr. Kirk: A particular individual's experience in the detail and substantive roles is not necessary and what I bring to this role is more than three decades of administrative experience related to that. I served in a role of oversight over student disciplinary processes at notre dame, police departments and housing matters.
▶ 1:05:13Mr. Kirk: This was to ensure that the work was performed appropriately and I feel very confident that I'm able to do that, to supervise and manage the oversight work of the inspector general's office.
▶ 1:05:27Sen. Hickenlooper: In terms of the sba inspector general, what kinds of fraud and abuse are you most concerned with?
▶ 1:05:36Mr. Kirk: At the sba I am very concerned with the kind of fraud that occurred in connection with the recent usaid program. Hundreds of millions of dollars lost to fraud. I'm concerned about ensuring that disaster aid is appropriately distributed to underserved rural communities.
▶ 1:06:05Mr. Kirk: I am very concerned that given all the focus on the ppp program over the last couple of years, that the flagship programs have the oversight that is required to ensure that they stay ready and available to assist small businesses.
▶ 1:06:18Sen. Hickenlooper: How do you look at some of the issues of the sba, with some contestation on some of the awards that were frozen and have been held back. People qualify for those programs and were told they were being given funding but that funding was never shared. Do you have a way of approaching those situations?
▶ 1:06:47Mr. Kirk: Thank you. Since I'm not in the role currently I would need more information to understand what the actual issues are you are referring to, but if an entity is qualified to receive, it would be important for the inspector general to determine and ensure that an error was not made.
▶ 1:07:07Sen. Hickenlooper: I yield back to the chair.
▶ 1:07:09Chair Ernst: Thank you senator hickenlooper. One more follow-up question for ranking member markey.
▶ 1:07:17Ranking Member Markey: Recently wired magazine reported that uvette -- unvetted doge operatives gained wide-ranging access to sba databases including personal information of small business loan owners. As you know, these small business people are putting up their life savings.
▶ 1:07:40Ranking Member Markey: They are giving access to the federal government to this relatively small amount of money that they have, to take a big risk, owning a small business. They are handing it over to the small business administration with the promise that information will remain confidential. That no one will ever have access to it. The most private information that an individual has.
▶ 1:08:07Ranking Member Markey: It is their net wealth, everything you have worked for and in many instances, the spouse along with the husband is putting up their money for that small business. If wired magazine is reporting accurately, and the evidence is there, should the sba's inspector general investigate doge's activities, if there is reasonable evidence, that the privacy of those financial
▶ 1:08:38Ranking Member Markey: Documents, millions of small businesses has been compromised? Would that be the responsibility of the inspector general of the small business administration?
▶ 1:08:46Mr. Kirk: Thank you for the question. On the privacy and security of information that are small businesses share with the sba for the purposes of eligibility, it is critically important information and it is imperative that all the folks, all the officials who have access to it are trained and properly handle that information.
▶ 1:09:13Mr. Kirk: Any allegations or violations of those standards would be matters that the inspector general's office would appropriately look at with the appropriate facts that come to my attention, I will work with my staff to ensure that the facts are applied against the criteria involved.
▶ 1:09:30Ranking Member Markey: I think that's going to be a very important thing for you to do because I think wired has a pretty documented case that has been made, that that information has been compromised.
▶ 1:09:42Chair Ernst: Thank you ranking member markey and thank you Mr. kirk for being with us today and for your willingness to serve. We are going to leave the record open for two days until 5:00 on friday, for members to submit questions for the record and we will keep the record open for two weeks to add statements and submit letters and any other relevant materials. Without objection, so ordered. Mr.
▶ 1:10:09Chair Ernst: Kirk, we would appreciate your prompt response to any questions submitted for the record. We do require your responses prior to advancing your nomination out of committee. Without the committee on small business and entrepreneurship stands adjourned.