▶ 0:18:43Chair Crapo: This meeting will come to order. I want to thank our nominees, Mr. greenstein and Mr. korb. We will first hear from jonathan greenstein, nominated to serve as the undersecretary of finance at the treasury dealing with matters pertaining to international finance, bilateral and regional economic engagement and national debt.
▶ 0:19:13Chair Crapo: If confirmed, he will be responsible for ensuring that the united states remains a leader in international organizations like the international monetary fund and the world bank. These organizations have suffered from mission creep, expanding their focus far beyond their core mandates. I welcome his thoughts on how we can return these organizations to their respective original missions.
▶ 0:19:38Chair Crapo: I also look forward to hearing his views on how the treasury department can effectively protect against currency manipulation. To ensure other nations do not gain an unfair competitive advantage in international trade. Next, we will hear from donald korb, nominated to serve as chief counsel of the internal revenue service.
▶ 0:20:00Chair Crapo: He will be -- it is a top legal officer and advisor to the commissioner on all matters relating to the interpretation, administration and enforcement of tax laws. He knows the position well, having served as chief counsel from 2004 until 2000 eight. I also note that his previous nomination was unanimously approved by this committee.
▶ 0:20:27Chair Crapo: That previous experience provided him first insight into the importance of fair and interpreted -- impartial interpretation of tax laws and ensure that taxpayer rights are protected. The agency will be well served by having a steady hand who understands these duties in one of its most senior positions.
▶ 0:20:46Chair Crapo: He is among the most highly respected tax lawyers in the country and I trust that his integrity and judgment will focus on how to best serve the american taxpayer, enforce the law with integrity and fairness for all and build confidence in the irs.
▶ 0:21:03Chair Crapo: I also look forward to working with him if confirmed to ensure that the tax provisions in the one big beautiful build more effectively improperly intimate -- implemented, and promptly, thank you for the -- thank you to the nominees for their time today. And now I recognize ranking member wyden.
▶ 0:21:23Sen. Wyden: We will focus on two important issues, irs chief counsel and deputy under secretary of the treasury department. I am going to begin with Mr. korb up for the chief counsel job, one of only two senate confirmed positions at the irs. Now, he has 50 years under his belt as a tax attorney.
▶ 0:21:51Sen. Wyden: He served as irs chief counsel under george w. Bush. So, I wanted understood that his experience, in my view, in tax law is not at issue. I do want to focus on some things that he has said during his meetings with the bipartisan committee staff. Staff had questions for him about taxpayer privacy violations.
▶ 0:22:19Sen. Wyden: This is an area that the chairman and I have talked about often that I just believe consistently gets short shrift, and this is especially of concern now, given that the trump administration is weaponizing the irs as it snatches people off of the streets and launches politically motivated investigations of those that the trump administration sees as adversaries.
▶ 0:22:48Sen. Wyden: Amid that context, the recent reggie nate -- resignation of a career irs official who served as action -- acting commissioner came up. Mr. korb said that the individual should have been shot for his decision to resign.
▶ 0:23:09Sen. Wyden: He also said that all of the senior career officials who made the decision to leave the irs afterwards did so because they wanted to show off their woke friends. These are comments, to me, that raise real questions with respect to a nomination having -- a nominee having a political agenda. Let me note that the nominee praised Mr.
▶ 0:23:37Sen. Wyden: Billy long, who practically was gone before he got there, which was something that I and others warned about when he was before the committee. I do not expect to agree with everybody, that donald trump puts in charge of tax policy, but I do feel strongly that the top player in the irs ought to be somebody who can do the job fairly.
▶ 0:24:04Sen. Wyden: So, we certainly have some questions to look at, and one after another, the trump nominees sit before the committee, tell us what they will do to follow the law and do what is right. The reality is that there is a big gap between what they say when they come onto the committee and what they do, and they consistently violate the law and gobble up power for donald trump and weaponize against people who have no power
▶ 0:24:34Sen. Wyden: To really defend themselves. We have some issues to talk about with respect to Mr. korb, and I will make his response to what he said to the bipartisan staff, because I think I have made my point. Next up Mr. chairman, briefly, Mr. jonathan greenstein is going to be considered for under sec. Of treasury for international finance, a job that deals with complicated global markets.
▶ 0:25:04Sen. Wyden: I think it is well understood that I am troubled by the trump trade policy in this country. Once again, we are hearing from stores that the prices are going up due to tariffs. And certainly, the treasury will be asked about that this morning. Again, somebody has been in the building and probably familiar with the complete disaster that is donald trump's trade and economic policy.
▶ 0:25:34Sen. Wyden: My concern is, and I hear this from farmers regularly and senator crapo talks about this, the wheat farmers said in effect that their prices are down, and their input costs are up. And they have no predictability and no certainty about what is going on. And I think these policies are one of the regions -- reasons that we have read in the papers that unemployment is on the rise.
▶ 0:26:05Sen. Wyden: The manufacturing recession -- the manufacturing sector is in recession. Our trading partners cannot trust a word out of donald trump or his advisors. Not a way to run an economy. Let me note for the record that I am still capable of seeing my friend robert at the table and I am glad to welcome him, always good to have him here. We have been colleagues on a lot of these issues in the past and we are glad that he is here.
▶ 0:26:32Chair Crapo: Thank you. Today we are honored to have our colleague, senator hagerty and our former colleague, senator portman here to introduce our nominees.
▶ 0:26:43Sen. Wyden: Let me say I did not look at the other end of the table and I am glad that senator hagerty is here too.
▶ 0:26:51Chair Crapo: And welcome to the committee, both of you. Before turning it over, we do have four obligatory questions that we ask all nominees before this committee, and I would ask if you could just answer these verbally as I ask you. The first is, is there anything that you are aware of and your background that might present a conflict of interest with the duties of office for which you have been nominated? >> no.
▶ 0:27:22Chair Crapo: Thank you. Second, do you know of any reason personal or otherwise that would prevent you from fully and honorably discharging the responsibilities of the office to which you have been nominated? >> no.
▶ 0:27:37Chair Crapo: Third, do you agree without reservation to respond to any reasonable summons to appear and testify before emily duly constituted committee of the congress if you are confirmed? >> yes.
▶ 0:27:51Chair Crapo: Do you commit to providing a prompt response, in writing to any questions addressed to you by any senator of this committee? >> yes.
▶ 0:28:01Chair Crapo: Thank you. With that, we will begin with senator hagerty, who will introduce Mr. greenstein, and then followed by I still call you a senator, rob. To introduce Mr. korb.
▶ 0:28:23Sen. Hagerty: Thank you for having me in front of the committee, but before I would like to address all of the staff along the wall. Because, jonathan greenstein stands as an important example of what I would expect from each of you. Jonathan is a type of staff member on my staff that delivered the absolute best performance he possibly could.
▶ 0:28:47Sen. Hagerty: And he is finding himself today in a position to further that contribution serving in the executive branch. I hope you will look at him as an inspiration and you all aspire to do something similar in your careers, and I want to thank each of the staff members for the hard work you put in to support all of us in the senate and hopefully, someday, you will find yourself in a different role.
▶ 0:29:13Sen. Hagerty: It is a great honor, today to introduce my friend jonathan and a great honor to have his parents with us. I do not -- I know that they are very proud of their son, as proud as I am. And jonathan was my very first senior economic policy advisor when I came to the senate. I really got to know him as one of my most trusted advisors and some when I hold in the highest regard.
▶ 0:29:42Sen. Hagerty: Before joining, he served at the treasury department as deputy assistant secretary during the first term. In the private sector he worked in the goldman sachs invested -- investment banking division. He earned a jd from neil and graduated phi beta kappa from harvard -- harvard college.
▶ 0:30:06Sen. Hagerty: His experience in the private sector give him a comprehensive understanding of financial institutions and the policies that govern them. In the senate he drew on those expertise to provide clear counsel of matters critical to maintaining the competitiveness of our financial system. He was prove invaluable as we work for the most complex issues facing our economy.
▶ 0:30:30Sen. Hagerty: He demonstrates capability and commitment at every stage of his career including his service at treasury, work in the private sector and his time in the senate. He has applied his skills with diligence and sound judgment. That blend of government service, academic accomplishment and service make him uniquely prepared. We need leaders who combine knowledge with experience, who understand policy and practice.
▶ 0:31:04Sen. Hagerty: Importantly, we need leaders with the finest moral character. In that regard, no one stands taller than jonathan greenstein, and I urge my colleagues to support his confirmation.
▶ 0:31:14Chair Crapo: Thank you. Senator portland. Mr. portland to my chair -- to my friends, senator and former chairman grassley, and to my colleagues, it is an honor to be here today, both for my former committee and I am privileged to introduce a friend and fellow ohio when who has been nominated to the chief counsel for the international revenue service.
▶ 0:31:44Chair Crapo: He grew up in cleveland and graduated two of cleveland's ohio -- ohio's greatest university where he did receive a degree in political science and a law degree. His brother and nephew are here with them today, supporting his nomination and a number of former irs and treasury servants , although his wife pat and his kids could not be at the hearing today, they are here in spirit.
▶ 0:32:16Chair Crapo: President trump made an excellent choice and nominating him. In fact, I cannot think of anybody more qualified. He has a long and distinguished career as a practicing tax attorney in the public and private sectors. I am delighted to find that he is willing to return to public service. He was a counsel with sullivan and cromwell. Prior to that he was chair of the tax practice of thompson hein.
▶ 0:32:43Chair Crapo: In all, he has been a tax lawyer for over 50 years. Prior to sullivan and cromwell, he previously served as chief counsel for the internal revenue service from 2004 until 2008. If confirmed he would be the first person to serve not -- two nonconsecutive six terms.
▶ 0:33:12Chair Crapo: And he was approved unanimously during his previous confirmation hearing. Prior to his service as chief counsel he worked for two years as assistant commissioner for the irs and the coordinator of the legislative process that resulted in the 1980 six tax law. Also at the beginning of his career he worked for four years as an attorney advisor. This extensive public service will benefit him greatly in these new roles should he be confirmed.
▶ 0:33:43Chair Crapo: I got to know him when I was elected to the house of representatives in 1993. I look to him as a distinguished tax attorney to help lead my tax reform tax course and I have been working with him ever since. I have benefited from his knowledge, experience and knowledge of the workings of the internet -- internal revenue service. He has a reputation of a lawyer's lawyer.
▶ 0:34:13Chair Crapo: He has a true professional, honest, straightforward and knowledgeable. He takes the time to understand complicated tax policy and has a passion for making it work better for the american people. I would talk about his goals but he wants to see improved taxpayer service, better privacy protections and that issue was raised earlier by the ranking member, and more effective collections. In my view the irs needs him now as chief counsel.
▶ 0:34:42Chair Crapo: Thank you again for having me here today to give my insights on this qualified nominee and I am confident that he will serve our country well and I appreciate your consideration for these two roles.
▶ 0:34:53Chair Crapo: Thank you. We will proceed to the statements of our nominees. Mr. greenstein, would you please proceed first.
▶ 0:35:02Mr. Greenstein: Chairman, ranking member, esteemed members of the senate finance committee, thank you for the opportunity to appear before you. I would like to thank you and your staff for the time and courtesy extended to me in meetings ahead of his hearing. Senator hagerty, thank you for the kind introduction. You have been a true defendant -- friend and mentor over the years.
▶ 0:35:28Mr. Greenstein: Working with you on matters related to economic policy, international trade and finance and national security instilled in me a an appreciation for the critical and tireless work of the senate and the importance of robust collaboration between the executive branch and congress. If confirmed, I commit to working with this committee with those values in mind.
▶ 0:35:51Mr. Greenstein: I would like to acknowledge and thank my family, my parents, siblings, whose love and support me in the world to me. I am honored to be president trump's nominee to lead the international finance portfolio and I am extremely grateful to president trump and secretary bessent for their confidence and trust in me.
▶ 0:36:18Mr. Greenstein: The international finance portfolio plate -- plays a vital role in advancing the america first agenda by approving our bilateral and multilateral economic engagements, addressing key policy questions and leaving on global financial regulation and supervision. If confirmed, I will draw on my experience to address issues related to the global economy and international financial markets.
▶ 0:36:43Mr. Greenstein: I would pursue america's interest through the bilateral and multilateral engagements across the western hemisphere, africa, middle east, asia, and europe and with the g7, g20, imf and financial stability world dashboard. Old policies are advancing interest by seeking to improve our international relations and create a level playing field on which american workers and businesses can thrive.
▶ 0:37:12Mr. Greenstein: As secretary bessent has emphasized, we need to work on the trade deficits and good that stems from unfair trade practices and threaten america's national security which is also focused on unfair currency practices that disadvantage america. In our multilateral engagement we have the opportunity to leverage our leadership.
▶ 0:37:40Mr. Greenstein: The united states hosts the g20 and g7 over the next two years, prime forms to promote the america first agenda. As secretary bessent stated, it does not mean america alone. As the largest shareholder of the imf, we wanted to refocus on the core mission, promoting international monetary cooperation, facilitating the balanced growth of economic trade and disk currency -- discouraging harmful policies such as currency devaluation.
▶ 0:38:11Mr. Greenstein: We must strengthen their surveillance of key issues, improve the effectiveness of its lending and focus its work on public debt. An international financial markets we must ensure that it is not hampered by overly burdensome regulation. Pursuing global financial stability requires moderation of risks that are salient and material.
▶ 0:38:35Mr. Greenstein: We should promote american standards and a modernized regulatory environment that supports competition and encourage opportunities to -- I'm excited to return to the treasury department and work with incredibly talented and dedicated colleagues on these important issues and I would be honored to undertake this position. Thank you for the opportunity to appear today and I look forward to your questions.
▶ 0:39:04Chair Crapo: Thank you. Mr. korb.
▶ 0:39:08Mr. Korb: Chairman, ranking member, and members of the committee, it is an honor to appear today as president trump's nominee for the commission -- position of chief counsel for the internal revenue service. Before I go further, I would like to thank senator portman for introducing me. As rob said, we have known each other for over 30 years.
▶ 0:39:35Mr. Korb: During that time, he has not only been a mentor but a good friend. Unfortunately, my wife and daughter are not here today. They are enjoying a mother daughter trip around ireland.
▶ 0:39:53Mr. Korb: Still, today is a red letter day for my wife and me because it was on september 10, 1966, 59 years ago to the day that we met at a high school dance in cleveland, ohio. My son and daughter-in-law are dealing with the challenge of three small school-aged children at the beginning of the school year so he was excused as well.
▶ 0:40:21Mr. Korb: I should point out my brother is here with his son, my nephew. Some of you might recognize him because he was a former defender for the D.C. united professional soccer team. If I am confirmed, this will be the fourth time in my career that I have been so honored to serve at the irs, and the second time that I will be able to serve as the agency's chief counsel.
▶ 0:40:49Mr. Korb: The opportunity for public service at the national level is a rare privilege, and one that I welcome. It is a great honor and I am humbled by the confidence of president trump and secretary bessent that have placed -- that has been placed in me for the opportunity to serve my country once again in this capacity.
▶ 0:41:11Mr. Korb: On march 8, 2004, 21.5 years ago I sat before this committee in this very room and pledged to strengthen the integrity of the nation's tax system and help the attorneys and the office of chief counsel to become more client oriented while at the same time maintaining their independent judgment. I am pleased to report that I achieved those aims while serving as chief counsel.
▶ 0:41:38Mr. Korb: I appear before you today with almost 52 years of experience in federal taxation in both public service and in the private sector. The core of my practice has been tax controversy work, including representing taxpayers before the irs, examinations, appeals and tax litigation.
▶ 0:42:03Mr. Korb: Importantly, my experiences also included representing the federal government in a similar manner when I lead the office of cheese -- chief counsel from 2004 until 2008. Plus my background and experience show I have spent a significant amount of time on both sides of the table, allowing me to understand the positions of both the agency and taxpayer.
▶ 0:42:25Mr. Korb: As I said before, if I am fortunate enough to be confirmed, this is my fourth tour of duty with the internal revenue service. In 19 74, I began my career as an entry-level lawyer with the office of chief counsel.
▶ 0:42:41Mr. Korb: Less than a decade later, during the reagan administration I served a second time in washington as an assistant to the irs commissioner where I coordinated the services involvement in the legislative process resulting in the tax reform act of 1986. During the george w.
▶ 0:43:03Mr. Korb: Bush administration I served a third time as the irs chief counsel, where I played a role increasing the effectiveness of the chief counsel's office but was best known for developing the litigation strategy that led to the great legal successes that the government had during my almost five year tenure in that position.
▶ 0:43:27Mr. Korb: In addition to being involved in tax controversy, I advanced innovation in the tax guidance program which resulted in the increase of quantity and quality of guidance. I improved the recruiting program in the office of chief counsel, the great place to start program which placed the office in direct competition with law firms for top legal talent.
▶ 0:43:52Mr. Korb: I believe that all of this experience, plus the institutional knowledge that I gained during my three different stints at the irs will be invaluable to me. Once again, if I am confirmed as chief counsel. Lawyers in the office of chief counsel must serve taxpayers fairly and with integrity by providing correct and impartial interpretation of the laws.
▶ 0:44:18Mr. Korb: And offering the highest quality legal advice and representation for the internal revenue service. If confirmed, I will continue to advance that mission. Let me finish by pointing out that the internal revenue service is an institution and it means a lot to me, as does the office of chief counsel. Both have been a significant part of my professional life, and I can be very passionate about both.
▶ 0:44:46Mr. Korb: I have a deep respect for institutions, and I look forward to rejoining the irs team. Let me conclude by pledging that if I am confirmed, I will do my utmost to carry out the responsibilities entrusted to me, and endeavor to protect the irs as an institution. Thank you for your consideration and I will be pleased to answer any questions.
▶ 0:45:09Chair Crapo: Thank you. I will begin with you. Mr. greenstein, secretary bessent stated that the international monetary fund and the world bank had suffered from mission creep. These organizations have drifted away from their stated objectives. Mr. greenstein, if confirmed, you would play a vital role in overseeing U.S. participation in these organizations.
▶ 0:45:36Chair Crapo: How would you plan to refocus these organizations on these expect -- on their core objectives?
▶ 0:45:42Mr. Greenstein: Thank you. As I mentioned, as the imf's largest shareholder we have the opportunity to push the imf to focus on its core mission, promoting international monetary cooperation and facilitating the growth of trade, encouraging economic growth and discouraging financial policies such as currency devaluation. Returning it to the core mission will promote it to more effectively deliver.
▶ 0:46:13Mr. Greenstein: Three areas we can -- improve on, we can push for stronger analysis of issues within the core mandate and focus on the core issues of expertise. Exchange rates, fiscal and monetary policies in the financial sector. As we review the lending policies we should ensure that programs can better achieve their intended results including more effectively stabilizing the economy, laying the foundations for private sector growth and preventing reliance on fund reliance.
▶ 0:46:44Mr. Greenstein: And, we need to show that we have the ability to accelerate its work on public debt transparency. If confirmed I look forward to work on refocusing the imf on its core mission.
▶ 0:46:55Chair Crapo: Thank you. Mr. korb, you can speak for yourself, as I understand it, the finance committee staff asked you about a commissioner voluntary chose to leave the irs during the tax filing season and the impact that his departure had on the agency.
▶ 0:47:17Chair Crapo: The nominee, who previously served as irs chief counsel, and who also was unanimously approved by this committee knows firsthand how important it is to have reliable leadership at the irs, especially during the tax filing season. I just want to ask you, would you like to comment or provide context on this issue that has been raised?
▶ 0:47:39Mr. Korb: Thank you. As I mentioned in my opening statement, I care deeply about the irs and have dedicated a significant portion of my legal career to the institution.
▶ 0:47:57Mr. Korb: The words that senator wyden was referencing are taken out of context from a larger discussion being had at the time and were clearly used as a figure of speech and not meant to be taken literally. I have always prided myself on my character, integrity and professionalism. If confirmed I commit to ensuring that these will remain my core principles.
▶ 0:48:23Chair Crapo: Thank you. And I will go back to you Mr. greenstein. The treasury has called for china to change its economic practice and increased transparency in prior foreign-exchange reports. What is the treasury currently doing to push china to take the steps and how would you ensure that these measures are implemented, if confirmed?
▶ 0:48:50Mr. Greenstein: Thank you. I share your concerns about china. As the secretary stated, china is one of the most imbalanced economies in history. Part of returning the imf to the core mission is pushing for it to have proper surveillance on china.
▶ 0:49:08Mr. Greenstein: As you regarded with the treasury fx report, china's lack of transparency will not preclude the treasury from looking at china if it is moving through formal or informal channels. I look forward to using the tools within my portfolio and working with you and your team on this issue.
▶ 0:49:32Chair Crapo: My last question to Mr. korb. The irs mission is to provide america's taxpayers top quality service by helping them meet their tax responsibilities and enforce the law with integrity and fairness to all. I appreciate the commitments you have made in your opening statements and I want to give you an opportunity to ascribe how important it is to strike the balance between tax player responsibilities and taxpayer rights?
▶ 0:50:01Mr. Korb: Thank you. It is very important to strike that balance. One thing that you need to keep in mind is how taxpayer privacy is one of the cornerstone principles of the tax system, and treating taxpayers with fairness and respect is very important. As chief counsel, I was further viewed as firm but fair and I intend to do the same thing this time around.
▶ 0:50:28Chair Crapo: Thank you. Senator wyden.
▶ 0:50:31Sen. Wyden: So, it seems to me that you are trying to justify this comment that you made where somebody that you disagree with lots to be shot, which certainly is troubling, but let us set this aside for a moment.
▶ 0:50:53Sen. Wyden: If you are confirmed, in charge of many attorneys and, as I noted in my statement, you have 50 years in the business. Which, ought to be enough time to have really picked up some of the principles of good judgment.
▶ 0:51:18Sen. Wyden: How is it good judgment in what amounts to a job interview to say that you disagree with someone and they ought to be shot? How is that good judgment?
▶ 0:51:31Mr. Korb: Senator, I am having a hard time understanding and hearing your question. Would you mind repeating it?
▶ 0:51:40Sen. Wyden: How is it good judgment to say somebody you disagree with ought to be shot, especially since you have so many years in the business, as we have all talked about, to pick up those principles of good judgment. How is it good judgment to say something like that?
▶ 0:52:03Mr. Korb: Thank you. As I mention I care deeply about the irs. And disagreed with the decision that Mr. o'donnell made. He had been trusted with the leadership of the agency and he left his dedicated colleagues during the middle of the filing season, the most critical time of the year for the agency.
▶ 0:52:33Mr. Korb: People who have that experience and that 10 year generally lead irs blue. And in particular, in his case, I wish that he had not left when he did.
▶ 0:52:46Sen. Wyden: So, all of that constitutes good judgment, because you will be in charge of a lot of people. I'm going to move on, but it would be nice to hear somebody say, you know as part of good judgment, you can disagree with somebody in terms of policy, and not say something like I wish they were shot.
▶ 0:53:15Sen. Wyden: Let me move on to the privacy issues and sharing addresses with I.c.e. Bill paul was replaced by andrew demello over the trump administration's plan to disclose 7.3 million taxpayer returns to I.c.e. When even demello would not approve the plan, he was replaced by Mr. keyes. There is a pattern. The irs has had seven commissioners this year.
▶ 0:53:47Sen. Wyden: Seven commissioners, including one who was demonstrably unqualified on the get go, billy long. It is clear to me that the trump administration is pressuring irs employees to do something that could land them in jail. Now, you were the chief counsel before, so you know how these rules work.
▶ 0:54:10Sen. Wyden: So a yes or no question, should a chief counsel who improves the improper disclosure of taxpayer return information be prosecuted, yes or no?
▶ 0:54:22Mr. Korb: Thank you for that question. I think you realize that a U.S. district court has found that the agreements that you are referring to is 100% legal. You are certainly not asking me to disregard a court order.
▶ 0:54:43Sen. Wyden: No. I am asking about a policy question. And again, you are shifting in terms of the policy question. Nobody knows what scenarios are going to come up in the future. We know about policies. I will try one more question. Tax whistleblower provisions enacted by the congress have brought in seven from wesley -- wealthy tax chiefs.
▶ 0:55:12Sen. Wyden: I am one of the cochairs of the whistleblower caucus with senator grassley who is here as well. We have collected money from billionaires hiding assets overseas. You have been quoted as saying that the irs did not ask for these rules but forced upon them by congress and they have had the potential to be a real disaster for the tax system.
▶ 0:55:37Sen. Wyden: Again, yes or no question, it speaks to a policy, do you still believe whistleblowers are a disaster for the tax system?
▶ 0:55:46Mr. Korb: No I do not.
▶ 0:55:49Sen. Wyden: Thank you.
▶ 0:55:51Chair Crapo: Thank you. Senator grassley.
▶ 0:56:05Sen. Grassley: You and I visited -- you and I talked about the whistleblower program like senator wyden talked about. I authored the $7.5 billion bill that brought that much money back into the federal treasuries through the whistleblower program. You told me at that time that your views have evolved.
▶ 0:56:33Sen. Grassley: And I take that as fact that you gave me. And less I misinterpret -- unless I misinterpreted that. Because you had spoken against it.
▶ 0:56:46Mr. Korb: Senator, as I discussed with you, and I really appreciate that meeting we had with you and your staff, with age comes wisdom. And I do agree with the whistleblower program, 100% supportive of it, and I will work with the dedicated irs employees that are a part of it.
▶ 0:57:11Sen. Grassley: I think you just answered my second question, but I will ask it anyway. We are hearing recurring complaints from whistleblowers that the time it takes to process awards, the average claim time currently exceeds 10 years.
▶ 0:57:34Sen. Grassley: One way the whistleblower office seeks to speed up awards is through claim desegregation, or disaggregation, where one or more individual actions are separated from the larger claim summation allowing at least part of the claim to be paid while other actions are ongoing.
▶ 0:57:56Sen. Grassley: I have heard concerns from the whistleblower community that irs chief office recently advised against disaggregation of plans in cases of "related actions. If confirmed, can I count on you to work with the whistleblower office to ensure that claims disaggregation can be used by the whistleblower office to the maximum extent possible under law?
▶ 0:58:27Mr. Korb: Thank you for that question, and, as we discussed at the meeting in your office, you brought to my attention this and a bunch of other concerns you had with whistleblower programs and I commit to working with you and the committee if I am confirmed as chief counsel to sort that out.
▶ 0:58:48Sen. Grassley: Ok. I hope that is a yes and we will continue with disaggregation.
▶ 0:58:55Mr. Korb: Yes. Once I take off as I plan to look into that issue and and I will work with your staff on that point. Ok?
▶ 0:59:09Sen. Grassley: Thank you the reconciliation bill made several modifications to the credit that will take effect at the start of next year, implementing this credit properly and quickly is important for the biofuels industry and its participants. And I want to emphasize especially farmers.
▶ 0:59:38Sen. Grassley: Recently the office of management and budget put out a regulatory agenda illinoisans that suggests that regulations -- regulatory agenda's that suggest that regulations will not be put out until may 26. You are currently serving as counselor to the secretary. What is your understanding of when stakeholders can expect to see guidance implementing the clean fuel credit?
▶ 1:00:08Sen. Grassley: Like tomorrow or six months from now? Just any short answer you can give me?
▶ 1:00:13Mr. Greenstein: Thank you for that question. I would have to respectfully refer you to the folks in the office of tax policy on that.
▶ 1:00:23Sen. Grassley: Could you speak into the microphone more.
▶ 1:00:26Mr. Greenstein: I would have to leave respectfully refer you to the folks and colleagues in the office of tax policy.
▶ 1:00:34Sen. Grassley: Modification to the clean fuels credit will not go into effect into next year. The credit has been in effect since the start of this year, however the biden administration failed to issue formal guidance implementing the credit and as a result the biofuels industry is operating with great uncertainty as to the value and availability of the credit for 2025, meaning the current tax year.
▶ 1:01:04Sen. Grassley: If confirmed will you commit to providing stopgap guidance, clarifying eligibility to file an claim it this year?
▶ 1:01:15Mr. Korb: Thank you for the question. And as chief counsel I will work very closely with the office of tax policy and the treasury department to make sure that timely guidance is provided on all issues such as what you suggested.
▶ 1:01:36Chair Crapo: Thank you. Senator hassan.
▶ 1:01:40Sen. Hassan: Thank you chair and ranking member for this hearing. To both of our nominees, thank you for the willingness to serve and congratulation to you and your families. I will start with a question to both of you. If directed by a president to take an action that would break the law, would you follow the law or the president's directive.
▶ 1:02:02Mr. Greenstein: Thank you for that question. It sounds like a hypothetical to me, but I do not imagine being asked to do something that would require me to not follow the law.
▶ 1:02:18Sen. Hassan: On are you committed to following the law?
▶ 1:02:19Mr. Greenstein: Yes. The focus on Mr. korb?
▶ 1:02:23Mr. Korb: I will follow the law.
▶ 1:02:27Sen. Hassan: Mr. korb you are nominated to be the chief counsel of the irs and I want to ask you a specific question about following the law which I posed to the treasury general counsel who gave a disappointing and vague response so I hope you are willing to be more clear.
▶ 1:02:47Sen. Hassan: Would it be legal for the president to order irs employees to audit a particular person on the basis of their political beliefs, for example a new hampshire business owner said something that the president does not like?
▶ 1:02:59Mr. Korb: Thank you for that question and in all cases I will follow the law and would advise anybody who I am responsible for to do the same thing.
▶ 1:03:12Sen. Hassan: On I appreciate your commitment because I am disappointed, federal law is clear, it is illegal for the president or a cabinet member to order the audit of a particular person, and I would expect somebody about to be general counsel of the irs to understand that law. It is section 72-17 in clear language.
▶ 1:03:38Sen. Hassan: So, I want you to be clear about that, that is illegal in the law says it is. If the president directed the irs to illegally audit a potential individual or small business would you advise the rms -- irs commissioner to not reply and for it to be reported to the treasury inspector general?
▶ 1:03:58Mr. Korb: As in the prior two answers I will always follow the law including section 72-17.
▶ 1:04:07Sen. Hassen: This is 26 usc 72-17. Are you aware of what that law says about reports of the inspector general?
▶ 1:04:16Mr. Korb: I am and I will follow that statutory provision.
▶ 1:04:21Sen. Hassen: Just so everybody is clear, that law, not only says it is illegal for the president or a cabinet member to order an audit on a particular person and says that if an employee of the department gets such an order, they are, they shall report it to the inspector general. I hope you will be clear with that.
▶ 1:04:46Sen. Hassen: I appreciate you saying you will follow the law, but you have an obligation to let people know what the law is. You are nominated to be the top lawyer at the irs, are you willing to instruct employees to report such an order to the inspector general if they are ordered by the president or cabinet member to conduct an audit on a particular person?
▶ 1:05:10Mr. Korb: As I just said, I will advise anybody at the irs who seeks my advice to follow the law?
▶ 1:05:18Sen. Hassen: And that means they must report it to the inspector general and that is a clear language of the statute.
▶ 1:05:24Mr. Korb: Like I said, I will follow the law.
▶ 1:05:28Sen. Hassen: It feels to me like you are hedging. Let us go to Mr. greenstein. You are nominated to oversee the department of the treasury's work in international financial markets and you have an extensive background working in financial policy and the international industry. So, who pays tariffs?
▶ 1:05:52Mr. Greenstein: On specific policies related to tariffs, I would defer you to the president's senior trade policy team. In my specific role, I would be more focused on one of the items that president trump called out as nontariff, nonmarket practice and that is currency devaluation and potentially manipulation.
▶ 1:06:18Sen. Hassen: You have extensive experience. Do president trump do americans pay president trump's across-the-board tariffs?
▶ 1:06:28Mr. Greenstein: I would point you to the senior trade team and I believe that the secretary has spoken on this issue.
▶ 1:06:35Sen. Hassen: So granite staters like constituents across this -- across the country are struggling with high costs. I am asking a question that someone should have a clear understanding of, which is whether american families and businesses are paying the president's tariffs.
▶ 1:06:56Sen. Hassen: So, I have brought literal receipts to this committee that show, for instance that a small business in my state is paying these tariffs. I have brought customs forms to this committee.
▶ 1:07:12Sen. Hassen: I am disappointed that as somebody with financial markets experienced such as yourself you are unwilling to admit a basic truth which is that the tariffs are being paid by american businesses and consumers and are raising costs across the board and creating enormous uncertainty. We are seeing a contraction in the manufacturing sector as a result and it will cost the manufacturing sector extraordinary psalms.
▶ 1:07:38Sen. Hassen: And I hope there will be people in this administration who will have the courage and can door -- candor to speak openly to the president of the united states because this is dragging our economy down. Thank you.
▶ 1:07:53Chair Crapo: Senator cassidy.
▶ 1:07:56Sen. Cassidy: . Thank you for offering to serve. Mr. greenstein, the U.S. treasury deputy undersecretary of international finance is responsible for advocating our interests. At the world bank.
▶ 1:08:20Sen. Cassidy: But, these institutions repeatedly finance projects supporting export oriented shrimp agriculture in farm countries which hurt our shrimpers. If you follow what we are saying. We are giving money to the world bank who gives money to a country for aquaculture and then they dump their shrimp on us.
▶ 1:08:40Sen. Cassidy: For example, in 2021, the bank supported a 300 million dollar investment to electrify the shrimp sector to boost productivity, and marketing opportunities of ecuadorian shrimp producers. I can give other examples. Our shrimp producers never get that kind of support. Ecuador is the second largest source of shrimp imports.
▶ 1:09:05Sen. Cassidy: And it has been found by the international trade commission that these are injuring our domestic producers including those in louisiana, driving down prices, eliminating profits and putting people into bankruptcy. Will you ensure that the U.S. opposes these kind of egregious actions by international financial institutions for projects that are basically biased towards foreign competitors, who then dump into our market?
▶ 1:09:34Mr. Greenstein: Senator, thank you for that question. I share your concerns. For specific matters related to the world bank, that is not directly in my portfolio. But stepping back, I would note that president trump's america first trade policy is looking to address unfair practices such as shrimp dumpling that can harm american businesses.
▶ 1:10:01Mr. Greenstein: If confirmed, I would look forward to look -- to working with you in your office.
▶ 1:10:05Sen. Cassidy: I have been told that U.S. directors opposed -- never opposed any funding for shrimp aquaculture and it has not been a priority. It is a priority for my people on the gulf coast or not for the people in the U.S. government who are monitoring this? Mr. korb. I do not know why you did but thank you for coming back to public service. Get your head examined. Anyway.
▶ 1:10:35Sen. Cassidy: As part of the one big beautiful bill, congress passed a modified form of my educational choice for children act. 100% of the $1700 tax credit benefiting students in whatever k-12 educational environment their children chooses. And it takes effect january 1, 2027.
▶ 1:11:01Sen. Cassidy: You will be, if confirmed, responsible for other policies, but regulations issued in late 2026 will not give states and nonprofits time to prepare accordingly. Question. If confirmed as chief counsel, how would you assist sec.
▶ 1:11:21Sen. Cassidy: Bessent in delivering transformational score choice initial in preparing for this revision?
▶ 1:11:33Mr. Korb: Let me point out that I have been through this before in 1986 when I was the assistant to the commissioner. I helped developed a process -- develop a process to help the irs to get guidance po irs to get guidance p ublished for the largest tax bill of our lifetime and we were successful.
▶ 1:12:00Mr. Korb: 2004 when we had to deal with a major tax bill and we worked very hard to get the appropriate guidance out in time. Having been there many times, I understand that late guidance is not helpful.
▶ 1:12:16Mr. Korb: I appreciate you raising this particular item with me, and I will make sure that working with our counterparts in the tax policy office that we will work with you as well, to make sure that guidance gets out in time to be beneficial to the american people.
▶ 1:12:32Sen. Cassidy: One thing that would be very helpful and encouraging people, but it does not increase their tax liability or take money away from local education would be a checkbox of what you like to donate $1700 of your return to support students attending other school options and that sort of thing.
▶ 1:12:54Sen. Cassidy: Could you support such a checkbox being put on the 1040 to make it easier, like we once did for presidential, would you like to give a dollar to the presidential fund and would you like to give $1700 for giving -- for children going to schools of their parents' choice. Have you thought about that?
▶ 1:13:17Mr. Korb: I have not, but I understand your approach, and as you say, that has been used in other instances and that is certainly something we will take a look at.
▶ 1:13:30Sen. Cassidy: Thank you.
▶ 1:13:30Chair Crapo: Senator cortez masto.
▶ 1:13:35Sen. Cortez Masto: Thank you to the nominees for being here and your family members as well. Let me start with you. According to recent data, since the start of this year the irs' issuance of business tax refunds have skyrocketed to levels not seen since the employee retention tax credit promoter fraud surge in 2023.
▶ 1:14:02Sen. Cortez Masto: This is because the irs started processing new ertc claims after listening -- lifting the freeze that the irs put in place in september of 2023 to crack down on fraud. This committee was briefed and hearings that around 90% of ertc claims were fraudulent.
▶ 1:14:26Sen. Cortez Masto: Do you have any concerns with the irs processing of ertc claims and paying out billions in improper refunds?
▶ 1:14:33Mr. Korb: Thank you for that question.
▶ 1:14:39Mr. Korb: Thank you for the question. I was not there at the time you are referring so I had no personal involvement or knowledge.
▶ 1:14:48Sen. Cortez Masto: You have familiarity with being there in this position before. You are a tax attorney. I'm sure you are familiar with the ertc fraud we learned about. You will be stepping into this role. Do you intend to look at it? You have concerns about what the irs is doing now?
▶ 1:15:09Mr. Korb: I have some background in the employee retention credit. When it was enacted it was a great program. Great idea. Unfortunately when the administrations changed and it was extended and nobody seemed to on, what had been a good social program turned into the problem you are raising with me.
▶ 1:15:38Mr. Korb: I think it is a great example of when the irs, which is supposed to be tax collectors, administering the tax laws, is given responsibility for a social program. This is the kind of thing that happens. We are where we are. If I am confirmed and take office, we will have to deal with that as part of my portfolio.
▶ 1:16:04Sen. Cortez Masto: Is it something you intend to take a look at?
▶ 1:16:10Mr. Korb: I am sure I will be involved in it.
▶ 1:16:11Sen. Cortez Masto: Mr. greenstein, if confirmed your role will focus on international monetary policy. In your view, do you think a central bank should balance employment and inflation concerns or do you think it should prioritize the attempt to reduce the cost of government debt service?
▶ 1:16:35Mr. Greenstein: Senator, thank you for that question. I want to say thank you for the time in the meeting ahead of this hearing. It is a good question. It is important -- my role will focus on central banks around the world as well but it's important central banks stick to their core mandates. Those are two areas to focus on.
▶ 1:17:02Sen. Cortez Masto: Stay that again -- say that again.
▶ 1:17:08Mr. Greenstein: Price stability and employment. It is important to -- that they consider their decisions related to their monetary policy separate from any fiscal considerations. You get trouble when you start blending fiscal and monetary policy.
▶ 1:17:31Sen. Cortez Masto: Do you think tariffs are attacks -- a tax?
▶ 1:17:41Mr. Greenstein: I would defer to the president's senior trade team. I am more focus on currency manipulation as one of the nontariff measures we have to look at that partners may be trying to disadvantage american businesses and workers.
▶ 1:18:03Sen. Cortez Masto: Thank you, Mr. chairman.
▶ 1:18:03Chair Crapo: Thank you. Senator lankford.
▶ 1:18:08Sen. Lankford: Thank you for stepping into this role. It is a tedious effort to go through all the investigations. Few americans would be able to step in to do what you are doing so thank you for stepping on to do this. Mr. korb, a couple of things with you. Thanks for the time to visit. One of the areas that is passed and the one big, beautiful bill dealt with charitable giving.
▶ 1:18:38Sen. Lankford: This is a change in regulations coming up soon. Next year, individuals I do not itemize taxes by get to charitable causes will not be able to deduct up to $2000 per family from their taxes. This is significant for nonprofits and really important those regulations get out on time and people are able to see it in time to start taking advantage of that next year.
▶ 1:19:02Sen. Lankford: The best estimates, somewhere around $16 billion that will be out there for nonprofits, which is desperately needed for the folks taking care of the hungry and the hurting of the homeless out there. My question initially is there are quite a few changes happening in tax policy, including this area for nonprofits.
▶ 1:19:24Sen. Lankford: How would you work with the irs to quickly get the different aspects done for the regulatory scheme to make sure everybody's doing it the right way and they are following through on process to make sure it gets out and gets done?
▶ 1:19:38Mr. Korb: Thank you for the question. I really did enjoy our meeting. I appreciate the time you took with me. Remember, I have been through this before. Very unusual. The first time ever for a chief counsel to come back.
▶ 1:19:56Mr. Korb: I have a lot of experience in how the system works, how important it is to get out guidance in a timely fashion, particularly when something deals with situations that are currently existing for this year or for next year. I will make sure the dedicated lawyers and chief counsel will work towards that goal.
▶ 1:20:24Mr. Korb: I will tell you past this prologue -- past is prologue. We increased guidance over 40% my last time around. I can do it.
▶ 1:20:35Sen. Lankford: Great. If I go back to the first trump administration where you served as well, the gao actually came out and made a recommendation to the administration and said irs is excluded itself from oversight, the office of information regulatory affairs.
▶ 1:20:56Sen. Lankford: Every other agency out there has to be able to follow a set of rules to say if you will make a new revelation, they need to build the check it and you were following the administrative procedures act before you release it. Irs said we are exempt. We are different than everyone else and don't have to do that. The first trumpet administration said no, irs should be treated the same as everybody else. They should also have accountability that they're putting on a regulation, somebody should check their math and homework on it.
▶ 1:21:25Sen. Lankford: When the biden administration came in they said we don't want oversight over irs and kicked it back out. They removed the oversight. My question is, I know this is under review again but what are your thoughts about including review again and say the irs is like every other entity, it requires someone to check their homework before it gets.
▶ 1:21:46Mr. Korb: Thank you for the question. Let me respectfully point out I was not in the first trumpet administration.
▶ 1:21:56Sen. Lankford: Sorry about that.
▶ 1:21:56Mr. Korb: The bush administration. I am very well-versed in the entire apa process. I am committed to the executive order that the president put out requiring oira review of most regulations. I look forward to working this and other administrative issues we talked about. I think the entire process can be improved.
▶ 1:22:28Mr. Korb: I would like to work with you and your staff to help that. It will benefit the american taxpayer.
▶ 1:22:33Sen. Lankford: Just have regulations that are predictable. If there is an onerous regulation, somebody has the opportunity to look at it before it is released is a benefit to the american people. It keeps down the litigation costs as well so people don't have a sense of just suing the irs every time there is a challenge. Somebody else is checking their homework before they bring down litigation issues. Thank you for stepping back up again.
▶ 1:23:04Chair Crapo: Senator blackburn.
▶ 1:23:07Sen. Blackburn: Thank you, Mr. chairman. Mr. korb, I want to talk about revenue ruling202414. In tennessee, 75% of our small businesses file as a pass-through entity. These are vital to our communities.
▶ 1:23:38Sen. Blackburn: One of the things we heard a lot about from tennessee businesses is they felt targeted under the by the administration. Of course, they carried out a lot of this targeting by establishing this ruling and beginning to go through the compliance or lack thereof to get a small businesses.
▶ 1:24:06Sen. Blackburn: It is in my opinion just grossly unfair that businesses would be targeted specifically because of the way they choose to organize themselves. That is what they experienced in the biden administration. Former deputy secretary falcon ander had a letter for me.
▶ 1:24:36Sen. Blackburn: Buyer's chief billy long had a letter from me -- former irs chief billy long had a letter for me ask you to bring this ruling down. There were three adverse rulings that were put in place that targeted small businesses. Two came under treasury and one under the irs. What I would like to hear from you, and by the way, the treasury has always taken down both of theirs.
▶ 1:25:03Sen. Blackburn: I would like to hear from you if you will review the status of this and if we can get this thing off the books.
▶ 1:25:14Mr. Korb: Thank you for the questions, senator blackburn. Remember I am from the middle west. I am from cleveland, ohio. There are some very large companies there but all lot, a lot of small and middle sized businesses. The practice I had represented many, many small businesses organizing all sorts of forms. Partnership, llc, whatever.
▶ 1:25:46Mr. Korb: I agree that the entity as you choose to organize yourself should not be a mark against you in terms of being chosen for audit activity. The chief counsel advises the irs. We are there to provide legal advice.
▶ 1:26:10Mr. Korb: I want you to understand, built into my -- built into me is this strong regard for middle income people, middle and small and midsized businesses.
▶ 1:26:30Sen. Blackburn: They want to be able to pass these businesses along to the next generation. The targeting has been quite unfair. I would like a commitment from you that you will review the status of this and we can hopefully get this pulled down.
▶ 1:26:46Mr. Korb: Yes.
▶ 1:26:48Sen. Blackburn: Mr. greenstein, the p.r.c. And the imf, that is problematic. I think we all have seen being a part of the imf did not help the p.r.c. Straighten out their conduct.
▶ 1:27:10Sen. Blackburn: I think the imf has behaved more like a social justice organization and china is exploiting their position. Talk about with the U.S. can do to combat that influence of the p.r.c..
▶ 1:27:24Mr. Greenstein: Senator blackburn, thank you for the question. As I mentioned, and as secretary bessent has stated, we need to leverage our position within the imf. We are the largest shareholder. Pushing it towards getting back to its core mission. As I mentioned, response to the question, one of those is pushing the imf for enhanced surveillance on chinese practices.
▶ 1:27:50Sen. Blackburn: Pull your microphone closer. On the topic of china there is great concern about their cross-border interbank payment system, which is their alternative to the swift system. Of course we know going back to the olympics that were there in beijing, they are trying to get people using the yuan and the digital yuan.
▶ 1:28:21Sen. Blackburn: Are you concerned and what can you do to put a hedge in against this activity?
▶ 1:28:26Mr. Greenstein: Thank you for the question. The president has spoken about concerns about bricks payments and alternative payment systems. One is to speak out against our concerns we have from a governance perspective, a design perspective about some of these alternative systems. Two, are there ways to improve our own payment systems so folks are not necessarily seeking an alternative system.
▶ 1:28:56Sen. Blackburn: Thank you.
▶ 1:28:57Chair Crapo: Senator whitehouse.
▶ 1:29:01Sen. Whitehouse: Thank you, dylan. Mr. korb, q made clear to me you would not tolerate the use of the irs as a tool for individual favoritism or punishment of individual taxpayers for political reasons. Can you confirm that for me now?
▶ 1:29:30Mr. Korb: Yes, senator whitehouse. I really enjoyed our meeting yesterday. We had a very frank and firm discussion. I appreciate some of the things you said to me about the role I am stepping into. As I mentioned, the irs is a nonpolitical operation. Everyone is to be treated fairly, but firmly. I commit that to you.
▶ 1:29:57Sen. Whitehouse: We also talked about categorical benefits to particular big donors or big donor classes applied for policies of selective nonenforcement of tax rules. We have and to like this industry and therefore the irs will not go against that industry because there are political friends.
▶ 1:30:28Sen. Whitehouse: You said I would not be a proper function for the irs and you would be watchful about that as well. Is that a fair summary of our conversation? What would you say to that question of categorical nonenforcement?
▶ 1:30:43Mr. Korb: That summarizes one of the items we discussed. As I mentioned to you, my reputation as being a by the book kind of guy, straightlaced, and --
▶ 1:31:00Sen. Whitehouse: We like that.
▶ 1:31:01Mr. Korb: That is what I was last time and that is what I will be again as a surety yesterday.
▶ 1:31:05Sen. Whitehouse: Something I was made aware of after our meeting is that it seems that outside groups, political groups, advocacy groups, have been pursuing employee discipline within the irs.
▶ 1:31:28Sen. Whitehouse: Getting irs employees fired or suspended or otherwise punished because the outside group does not like the enforcement actions taken by the individual employees.
▶ 1:31:45Sen. Whitehouse: It seems to me that outside political pressure groups putting personnel pressure on the irs to discipline employees who are lawfully performing the functions is fairly improper. Would you reflect on what your role would be if a situation like that came to your attention?
▶ 1:32:13Mr. Korb: Mr. korb: senator, thank you for that question. Keep in mind I am not there at the irs. I have nothing to do with whatever is going on at the moment. The past is prologue. What I was chief counsel almost five years I was told at the end of my time not a single grievance have been filed against me by any employee and counsel.that had never happened before.
▶ 1:32:43Mr. Korb: That should tell you how I treat people. How I respect them. In terms of promotions, it was like the cleveland orchestra. I was their lawyer at one time.
▶ 1:32:52Sen. Whitehouse: The time is short. I get you. This is a more specific situation where there's an irs employee going about their duties. Their duties annoy the powerful interests whose taxes are being reviewed. Therefore, advocacy group makes a move in the irs to sanction the employee on a personnel basis for having had the temerity to do their job.
▶ 1:33:23Sen. Whitehouse: That outside political pressure into the internal personnel decisions of the irs over the lawful performance of lawful performance strikes me as something the irs should defend against. Does it strike you the same way?
▶ 1:33:37Mr. Korb: As I said, I am by the book, evenhanded in terms of personnel matters. I will not be swayed by people not in the agency telling me what to do.
▶ 1:33:48Sen. Whitehouse: Perfect. The last thing I will mention and I want to salute the chairman on this, because he was essentially getting the work done to pass the corporate transparency act. You and I talked about the dangers of shell corporations and of foreign and other nefarious interests hiding in american shell corporations.
▶ 1:34:12Sen. Whitehouse: The extent to which that creates national security risk by empowering kleptocratic and international criminal 10 drug cartels is a little bit parallel to your line of work. It is also a very significant avenue for tax fraud.
▶ 1:34:32Sen. Whitehouse: I don't have a ask other than to pay careful attention to the risks that show corporations present if the government has no way of looking to see what criminal enterprise for what foreign kleptocratic or crooked oligarch is using our american corporate protections to accomplish anti-american and illegal actions.
▶ 1:35:04Sen. Whitehouse: Thank you, chairman.
▶ 1:35:04Chair Crapo: Senator warren.
▶ 1:35:07Sen. Warren: Donald trump's big beautiful bill raises costs for families all across this country while handing out giant tax breaks to billionaire corporations.
▶ 1:35:23Sen. Warren: Here we have mark zuckerberg and jeff bezos getting billions of dollars in tax breaks paid for by kicking 15 million americans off their health care and raising health care costs for millions more. One of the most ridiculous tax breaks in this bill is called retroactive research and experimentation expensing. Let's use plain english.
▶ 1:35:53Sen. Warren: This is money to incentivize research that corporations like meta and amazon conducted years ago. They will give them a break now for incentivizing them for things they did a long time ago. Because of trump's horrible bill, the federal government will hand $67 billion in these tax breaks to giant corporations next year. Mr.
▶ 1:36:18Sen. Warren: Korb, as irs chief counsel if you would be in charge of drafting the guidance and regulations that will determine whether or not these corporate tax breaks state 67 billion -- $67 billion or get more valuable. You have spent the last 15 years and beyond representing fortune 500 companies in tax disputes with the irs.
▶ 1:36:46Sen. Warren: Your work could directly affect your former clients' bottom lines. Mr. korb, how does handing out billions of dollars to corporations for research they already did lower costs for american families?
▶ 1:37:07Mr. Korb: Thank you for the question. I would like to thank you for the meeting yesterday. I will let you know that my granddaughter anna appreciated your signature. I don't to take up more of your time. Keep in mind that the chief counsel is responsible for administering the tax law. It is the U.S. congress that is responsible for enacting the tax law.
▶ 1:37:33Sen. Warren: You're saying that my job. Mr. korb, you were irs chief counsel for president bush. You know the irs chief counsel has a central role in determining how the laws are implemented through regulations and guidance. This is where the action is. I will ask one more time.
▶ 1:37:55Sen. Warren: How is a tax break for research that's already been done anything other than a huge windfall for corporate america?
▶ 1:38:06Mr. Korb: Thank you for the question. While I have some experience, the r&d tax credit during my many years of practice, I have to admit I do not drill down on what is in this bill on them point. I can't give you any view at this point.
▶ 1:38:27Sen. Warren: The tax giveaways in the big, beautiful bill are so large that massive corporations will see their tax bills drop dramatically. Amazon is set to pocket over $15 billion this year alone. Meta will get $11 billion this year alone. There is over there is o one backstop.
▶ 1:39:00Sen. Warren: In 2022, democrats created a corporate minimum tax that prevents billionaire corporations from paying a tax rate lower than 15%. Corporations are trying to wiggle out by lobbing the trump treasury department and the irs. The corporate minimum tax is the law of the land, just like the big, beautiful bill.
▶ 1:39:23Sen. Warren: When billionaire corporations see their tax rates drop below 15% because trump and the republicans give them all these tax cuts, will you commit that you will not write new rules that let them out of paying the corporate alternative minimum tax?
▶ 1:39:41Mr. Korb: Thank you for the question, senator. I do commit to follow the law that he was the congress enacted in writing the regulations.
▶ 1:39:52Sen. Warren: Let me make sure I understand your answer, because if anyone should be able to commit to following the law it should be a person in this job. Does that mean you will commit to implementing and enforcing the corporate minimum tax as required by statute? Do you believe the corporations are above the law?
▶ 1:40:13Mr. Korb: I have not studied the latest iteration of this. We have been through corporate minimum taxes, alternative taxes, back to the 1986 act and beyond any keep changing. I do have a day job so I'm studied every element of the bill. I apologize for that. Are there in that particular provisions authority given to the treasury to write regulations?
▶ 1:40:40Sen. Warren: Yes.
▶ 1:40:41Mr. Korb: Ok. Again, keep in mind the policy is the job of the treasury. As chief counsel our lawyers work hand in glove with the treasury lawyers to do that. I will be involved in regulations. Probably I should not offer a view at this point in time since I am not up to speed yet.
▶ 1:41:10Sen. Warren: I want to say I am over time so I will quit here. I think it is wrong for the trump administration to be handing out literally tens of billions of dollars to the giant corporations. You will be in a position to get them even more. I an uncomfortable with the way I feel like you have dodged the answers to these questions.
▶ 1:41:36Sen. Warren: I want to hear we will hold people at least to what the law specifically requires of them, even if they are billionaire corporations. Thank you, Mr. chairman.
▶ 1:41:48Chair Crapo: Senator marshall.
▶ 1:41:51Several Marshall: We wish you both the very best. Maybe we will start with Mr. greenstein. There are tax credits I could really help several different groups get the economy going. Would you be involved in writing those rules?
▶ 1:42:12Mr. Greenstein: Senator marshall, thank you for the question and thank you again for the time. It was great to me last month. I share your focus. Unfortunately I will not be involved in that.
▶ 1:42:27Sen. Marshall: Who had treasury does write these rules?
▶ 1:42:32Mr. Greenstein: The office of tax policy.
▶ 1:42:34Sen. Marshall: The 45z is important to farmers and we need to get that when rolling. It will allow us to turn corn into jet fuel, something great for the economy and the ecology. I will turn to Mr. korb as well.
▶ 1:42:52Sen. Marshall: Are you familiar -- some people have asked this question already but are you familiar with the ruling 2024-14 that addresses challenges specific partnership related basis shifting transactions?
▶ 1:43:10Mr. Korb: Thank you for the question. I would like to thank you for the nice meeting we had. I appreciate that. It has been asked already here. I am aware of it. That is one area I know will come up in the hearings and I have studied that. I plan to work with the tax policy folks at treasury to work through the issues.
▶ 1:43:37Sen. Marshall: Would you agreeably it blew past the limits of the economic substance doctrine that has fostered confusion and uncertainty for law-abiding tax payers and most importantly created a weapon for selected enforcement by the bite administration? -- biden administration?
▶ 1:43:59Mr. Korb: It's interesting how the bite administration focused on the economic substance -- biden administration focused on the economic substance doctrine. It was in the code after I was chief counsel. My focus during my time was to use the judicial doctrine. As I understand it, that is still viable. I don't understand -- I don't have any of the cases. I don't understand how they are using it.
▶ 1:44:29Mr. Korb: I assume I will find out and go through that issue.
▶ 1:44:35Sen. Marshall: Can you speak to how the biden administration weaponized this against certain groups?
▶ 1:44:38Mr. Korb: I think that they decided to go after certain partnerships. The audit program they developed targeted to specific partnerships, no question about it.
▶ 1:44:56Sen. Marshall: When you commit to restoring fairness and predictability to tax enforcement?
▶ 1:45:02Mr. Korb: I will commit to working with the tax policy folks at treasury and debriefed on this and helping them reach a decision on what to do next.
▶ 1:45:20Sen. Marshall: Can you outline what the steps look like in more specific and how you can communicate to congress those steps?
▶ 1:45:28Mr. Korb: The way the process works, the last couple of times at the irs is the office of chief counsel has about 600 lawyers in the national office who work with 40 or 50 at treasury to develop rules. It goes through a rigorous process. A lot of review. A lot of back-and-forth.
▶ 1:45:52Mr. Korb: I think I mentioned to you I have known the assistant secretary for tax policy for over 40 years. We are looking forward to working together in government for the first time. There will be no daylight between us, as sometimes happens between the two buildings. Not in our case. We will work through it logically. I really can't tell you what's going to happen because I'm not there.
▶ 1:46:23Mr. Korb: I don't have all the facts. I'm relying on what the media reports are. I have to get in there to use my own judgment.
▶ 1:46:33Sen. Marshall: Mr. greenstein, just take a moment if there is anything to clear up. You did not get a chance to finish statements earlier today that you got cut off. I will give you time to do that. Maybe talk about the challenges and the opportunities in your new job.
▶ 1:46:51Mr. Greenstein: Senator marshall, thank you for the opportunity. If confirmed, I want to make clear how excited I am to use the position to promote president trump's america first agenda and the interest of american workers and business in the international space. At the g7, the g20, the imf, the financial stability board.
▶ 1:47:17Sen. Marshall: It looks like on the last dance partner today.
▶ 1:47:22Chair Crapo: You get to the wrap up. Now I will do the finish up. Let us conclude the questioning. I want to again thank both of our nominees for being here today and your participation in this hearing. I want to thank you for your willingness to step up and serve . Getting into public service is sometimes a little bit of a brutal process.
▶ 1:47:50Chair Crapo: I appreciate the fact you are willing to step up and help us in the respective positions you have been nominated for the help do the right things for america. Thank you for your willingness to serve. You are both very clearly qualified to serve in the positions to which you have been nominated. I look forward to voting in favor of both your nominations. I urge my colleagues to do the same.
▶ 1:48:16Chair Crapo: With that I remind my colleagues that the deadline for submitting any questions for the record is 5:00 p.m. On monday, september 15. With that, the finance committee stands adjourned.