▶ 0:18:23Chair Murkowski: I'm going to call this oversight hearing to order. Today, we are here to examine the indian self-determination and education assistance act successes and opportunities at the department of the interior and the indian health service. I call it isdeaa . Does anyone else call it isdeaa? There's been debate on the pronunciation, so as a committee, I would like to agree on calling it isdeaa.
▶ 0:18:55Chair Murkowski: The indian self-determination and education assistance act , if we use that come of this hearing will be twice as long. We will also talk about is successes at the department of interior and ihs. This year on january 4, we mark the 50th anniversary of isdeaa being signed into law.
▶ 0:19:14Chair Murkowski: Passed unanimously by congress, isdeaa transform the relationship between the federal government and tries by empowering them to take over the administration and federal programs and services that serve tribes, tribal members, and native populations, and tailor them to their communities' unique needs. Historically, these programs and services were provided by federal agencies directly at interior and through the ihs at the department of health and human services.
▶ 0:19:42Chair Murkowski: Over the past five decades, tribal matt tribal m nations have proven time and time again that self-determination and self-governance work, and it worked because no one understands the needs of native communities better than the communities themselves. When tribes are in charge of the programs that serve their people, outcomes improve, opportunities grow, and cultures thrive.
▶ 0:20:06Chair Murkowski: Laskey is a perfect example of this could take the alaska tribal health compact, which was established early in the self-governance era, it showcases what is possible with self-governance. 90% of health programs are managed by tribes and tribal organizations, and it has led to world-class health care and public health services, to over 170,000 alaska native people, from anchorage to the most remote corners of our state.
▶ 0:20:35Chair Murkowski: It's not just in my state of alaska. Many tribes across the country have built effective programs over generations using isdeaa. Investing their own resources, training their own workforce, so that they better align with their culture and community needs. These are the models of local innovation and sovereignty, and they deserve both protection and sustained support. In order to continue and build on these successes, we need federal agencies to be good partners.
▶ 0:21:03Chair Murkowski: Having the right people, departments, and processes in place to approve and enable isdeaa agreements is essential could I do have concerns about how the executive orders on optimizing the workforce across the federal government and reductions in force are affecting tribal programs, so I have reached out to both hhs, doi, and other departments, urging each to exempt travel programs and staff. My colleagues and I have heard regularly from native communities about changes to service, delivery, and processes.
▶ 0:21:34Chair Murkowski: Empty staff protections, shortened deadlines amend ever circling rumors of perhaps more jesus to come. Right now, it's more important than ever for congress, the administration, and tribes to work collaboratively and seek solutions that work for their communities. We know the benefits go beyond native communities into every corner of the country. So I want to thank all of our witnesses for being here today. I know that a trip to D.C.
▶ 0:21:58Chair Murkowski: Is not always an easy one, but know that your time and expertise are invaluable. The insights you share will help inform and strengthen our federal programs and uphold the promises made to tribes and native people, so I look forward to your testimony. I now turn to the vice chair for his opening statement.
▶ 0:22:18Sen. Schatz: Thank you, chairman murkowski. In 1970, president nixon signaled a shift of U.S. policy away from an era of termination and toward self-determination for tribal nations. Congress responded with a bipartisan promise, let tribes run federal programs and serve their own people and find them fairly. That promise became what we all know as isdeaa.
▶ 0:22:43Sen. Schatz: Not a pilot program, not dia, it is not optional. As part of our federal responsibility to meet obligations on a government to government basis. Over time and across agencies, isdeaa has scaled up to it at doi and dhs, there are thousands of self-governance comebacks contracts in place.
▶ 0:23:07Sen. Schatz: Tribes are operating clinics, lease forces, schools and service centers close to home, and doing it better and cheaper than the federal government could. The take away is simple. When tribes lead, outcomes improve. That success deserves protection, not second-guessing. But today, we are seeing an erosion of responsibility, and I am concerned.
▶ 0:23:30Sen. Schatz: This administration is downsizing the federal government and adding more layers of bureaucratic review that is stalling self-determination, slow rolling 630 a funds needed to deliver life saving health care, public safety, and basic tribal health care services does not honor tribal sovereignty. Undermines it. Congress made clear that is the tribes site how to run federal programs and at best serve their citizens.
▶ 0:23:58Sen. Schatz: When the administering -- the administration micromanages funds, requiring loyalty to the president's policies to get money they are owed, that is not sovereignty. I'm also concerned that custody federal workforce are hollowing out the staff needed to negotiate these 630 eight agreements, answer phones even, and move the money.
▶ 0:24:22Sen. Schatz: Tribes cannot put 638 funding to work if there's no one around to sign off. Self-determination is about exercising tribal sovereignty, full stop. Delays, freezes, and new cancellations take tribal choices and conditions and control away.
▶ 0:24:43Sen. Schatz: We've already seen a clinic and hospital services rollback and tribal employees told there are no funds for their next paycheck. That's not efficiency. That's going back on a promise congress made 50 years ago when we passed this law. We should celebrate isdeaa's anniversary by getting back to the basics. Pushing dollars out the door, trusting tribal decision-making, and not making tribes run obstacle courses to access funds.
▶ 0:25:13Sen. Schatz: They are not a grant recipient, and the federal government is not the ford foundation. We have a special legal and moral obligation, and that's how we can ensure self-determination endures for the next 50 years and beyond. Madam chair, I would like to enter into the record a report prepared by the brookings institution that details the stakes for tribes when the federal government stops funding, including 638.
▶ 0:25:42Chair Murkowski: Without objection.
▶ 0:25:43Sen. Schatz: Thank you to our witnesses, and I look forward to your testimony.
▶ 0:25:46Chair Murkowski: Thank you, senator schatz. We have with us today Mr. kennis bellmard, the deputy assistant secretary for policy and economic development at the U.S. department of interior here in washington, D.C. welcome to the committee. We have Mr. ben smith, the acting director for the indian health service at the department of health and human services, also here in washington. Senator mullin, would you care to introduce our chief today?
▶ 0:26:17Sen. Mullin: Absolutely. I will always take the opportunity to speak about my friend. Geez, welcome. I just want you to understand the servant that chief hoskin has become and has been for cherokee nation, an advocate and a voice that did not just start when he decided to run for chief with a long history of serving.
▶ 0:26:43Sen. Mullin: He's a dedicated servant, having served cherokee nation as well as a member of the deputy speaker of the council for cherokee nation and cherokee nation a prior to being elected principal chief it is a leading voice in several functional areas, including rural health care, economic development, and tribal self-governance. I went to speak just a second about the indian health care.
▶ 0:27:09Sen. Mullin: I feel that cherokee nation is blessed to run its hastings hospital, which is where I received all my dental care, vision, I don't know, one hundred emergency care visits, when I was a kid come to the point that, they had to get me, when I was a kid, before they had medical records electronically, they had folders. Geez, you may remember, when you wanted to hastings, you had to get your folder, and I had two before I was in seventh grade.
▶ 0:27:37Sen. Mullin: [laughter] it is the only health care I ever received. It was the health care. To see where it is that today, what cherokee nation has developed it into, that hastings hospital now is partnered with osu medical, and they are training rural doctors out of the hospital.
▶ 0:28:02Sen. Mullin: And it's because of the private-public partnership between the state, between the federal government, and between hastings, which is the cherokee nation, the visit, if we will have doctors in rule health care, we have to train them in rural america. So instead of just abandoning the hospital I grew up going to commit a medical hospital now. That's the type of partnership that we need and vision that we need inside indian country.
▶ 0:28:34Sen. Mullin: We need the ability and the flexibility to be a sovereign nation, to see the need and fit the need to those in our own community. That's what this is all about. Cherokee nation is something I love to brag about, because it is an example of providing that care. Chief, it is wonderful to have you here in washington, D.C., and, you know, I will see you in oklahoma soon, I'm sure.
▶ 0:28:59Chair Murkowski: Thank you, senator mullin. Welcome to you, chief hoskin. Next to chief hoskin, we have a friend to the committee Mr. victor joseph. He has been before this committee previously, and his previous role, counting on chief constance, he is now the executive director of the tanana tribal council in tanana, alaska, and has been involved in so many matters related to
▶ 0:29:29Chair Murkowski: Providing health care, rather areas of leadership, so welcome to the committee. Our final witness today is Mr. j span -- Mr. jay spaan, the executive director of the self-governance communication and education tribal consortium, also out of oklahoma, tulsa, so welcome to you, Mr. spaan. We have your folder and testimony. It is part of the record.
▶ 0:30:00Chair Murkowski: We would ask that you keep your oral comments to less than five minutes, so that you have plenty of time for conversations and questions. So, Mr. bellmard, you may begin with your testimony today, please.
▶ 0:30:12Mr. Bellmard: Chairman murkowski, vice chairman schatz, and members of the committee, thank you for the opportunity to testify today on behalf of the department of the interior, regarding indian self-determination and education assistance act, isdeaa.
▶ 0:30:33Mr. Bellmard: My name is kennis bellmard clement on the deputy assistant secretary for policy and economic development at the bureau of indian affairs. [speaking native language] I'm went and rolled member of the kaw nation in hailing from ponca city, oklahoma.
▶ 0:30:59Mr. Bellmard: Isdeaa, 50 years after its passage, more than five decades ago, president nixon appeared before congress and repudiated the policy of the simulation, declaring that we must make clear that indians can become in independent of federal control without being cut off from federal concern and federal support. This vision, self-determination without termination, set the stage for a new federal policy.
▶ 0:31:30Mr. Bellmard: Congress pose unanimous passage of isdeaa built upon this vision by creating a framework for tribes to assume responsibility for programs, functions, services, and activities and has historically been administered by federal agencies. Principally, the bureau of indian affairs and the indian health service.
▶ 0:31:51Mr. Bellmard: Over the years, congress has refined isdeaa to strengthen tribal self-governance, including through the passage of the progress for tribes act, signed into law by president trump in 2020. These reforms reflect a consistent trajectory, expanding tribal authority, reducing bureaucratic obstacles, and improving federal tribal contracting and combat. We thank the committee for the engagement and leadership on this important topic.
▶ 0:32:23Mr. Bellmard: Today, isdeaa remains a cornerstone of tribal self-determination, enabling tribal nations to tailor programs to their unique needs, make more efficient use of funds, build tribal management capacity, and improve community outcomes.
▶ 0:32:40Mr. Bellmard: The success of isdeaa is evident, demonstrated that local control and knowledge lead to more effective programs, enhanced administrative capacity, improve governance and leadership, and significant economic benefits. The department has committed to helping fulfill the promise first made by president nixon 55 years ago and look forward to the next 50 years of self-governance by tribes.
▶ 0:33:11Mr. Bellmard: Thank you, again, for the opportunity to testify here today could I look forward to our continued work together to strengthen tribal self-governance, and I would be pleased to answer any questions that you may have.
▶ 0:33:27Chair Murkowski: Thank you Mr. iredell mark -- thank you Mr. bellmard. Mr. smith.
▶ 0:33:32Mr. Smith: Chairman murkowski, vice chairman schatz, and members of the committee, thank you. My name is ben smith. It is such an opportunity to be able to provide testimony on today's topic, the isdeaa, and specifically the success and opportunities at the indian health service.
▶ 0:33:54Mr. Smith: Our agencies see the indian health service that has a unique mission, to raise the mental, physical, and spiritual health of americans and -- of american indians and alaska natives to the highest level.
▶ 0:34:12Mr. Smith: This mission is carried out in partnership with ai/an tribal communities through a network of over 600 federal and tribal health facilities and 41 urban indian organizations that are located across 37 states and provide health care services to approximately 2.8 million ai/an people annually. It is the 18th largest health care system in the united states, and it consists of 12 area offices that oversee 170 service units proving care at the local level.
▶ 0:34:38Mr. Smith: Health services are provided through facilities managed by the ihs, by tribes and tribal organizations and through contracting grants that are awarded to urban indian organizations authorized by the indian health care improvement act. 50 years ago, the isdeaa marked a fundamental training white, empowering tribal nations to reclaim authority over essential services and decision-making that directly affect their people.
▶ 0:35:12Mr. Smith: But both title I and title v of that act authorizes sectary of the department of health and human services to contract with tribes or tribal organizations upon the request. It gives tribal flexibility.
▶ 0:35:32Mr. Smith: For example, under title I, ihs must approve any substantial changes under a contract, whereas under title v, a tribe may re-budget or reallocate or consolidate programs, functions, services, activities, or what we call psfa's, without approval, as long as it does not affect the eligibility.
▶ 0:35:57Mr. Smith: Because of the participation in isdeaa agreements is voluntary, tribes have options to determine how they received ihs-authorized services. For example, a tribe could continue to receive services directly from the indian health service as a federal provider, or they may exercise the authority of isdeaa by entering into a title I self-determination contract or a contract to assume operations of those psfa's.
▶ 0:36:31Mr. Smith: A third option is a combination of all of them. We see that play out throughout the country. Fiscal year 2024 alone, speaking to the volume of the agreement, the ihs has 247 self-determination contracts and annual funded agreements, with 232 federally recognized tribes. We have 114 compacts and 141 funding agreements.
▶ 0:36:57Mr. Smith: This represents approximately $3.0 billion of the ihs budget was transferred to tribes and tribal organizations. They manage through these these contracts and compacts. As we think about 60 years ago, the majority of health care programs were provided by federal agencies to now we are in the indian health service is alone, approximately 62% of the ihs budget is managed through tribes. We are seeing these changes.
▶ 0:37:29Mr. Smith: Self-governance range to not only expend the service access but also improve patient satisfaction and tribal oversight. Tribes and tribal organizations are developing their own strategic health plan, improving the health clinic efficiency, and maximizing third-party revenues through medicare, medicaid, and private insurance billing. We seen a number of successes throughout the country. A tribe in washington state developed a state-of-the-art family health clinic integrating primary care, dental, behavioral health, and an opioid treatment program.
▶ 0:37:59Mr. Smith: A tribe in oregon established a wellness center, offering integrated, culturally grounded medical, dental, and behavioral health services. We say tribal organs -- we see tribal organizations in alaska, arizona, and oklahoma operate some of the largest and most comprehensive tribal health systems in the U.S., encompassing hospitals, specialty care, and wellness facilities. I'm happy to answer any questions the committee may have.
▶ 0:38:26Chair Murkowski: Thank you, Mr. smith. Chief hoskin, welcome.
▶ 0:38:34Chief Hoskin: Thank you chairman , murkowski, vice chairman schatz, and members of the committee, I appreciate the opportunity to testify. Senator mullin, thank you for the introduction. I'm proud of you and your service to the country. Cherokee nation is the largest tribal nation in the united states.
▶ 0:38:53Chief Hoskin: We have a 7000 square mile reservation in northeast oklahoma come over which we recognize exclusive tribal jurisdiction, rooted in treaties between our tribal nation and the united states. I represent over 470,000 citizens. We are the largest economic engine of oklahoma.
▶ 0:39:25Chief Hoskin: We employ over 14,000 employees, and just as important, we support or create 23,000 jobs in the private sector. Our economic impact exceeds $3.1 billion, and, of course, this impact extends to our friends and neighbors. Back home, we are more often than not the problem solvers, the entity, the government that people look to, to fix things, to make life better. 50 years ago, that was not the case.
▶ 0:39:56Chief Hoskin: But 50 years ago, president nixon and the congress, the bipartisan coalition, enacted isdeaa. It's no coincidence that 50 years later, the cherokee nation's have never been stronger, and our future is bright. We can spend a dollar better, wiser, and more efficiently than the federal government can. We prove it every day. We've contacted with the government of the united states for every available program.
▶ 0:40:23Chief Hoskin: We shape the programs, we develop strategies, and we execute those strategies, from infrastructure to housing, health care to education, to managing our lands and other natural resources, to handling our own realty services, so we can efficiently handle trust and restricted land title matters. We are in control. We cut through red tape. We get things done, all thanks to isdeaa. Most recently, we did it with the U.S. department of transportation.
▶ 0:40:53Chief Hoskin: We are the first tried to achieve a for us -- self-governance agreement with that agency. We have the flexibility to better plan one of government's basic functions, and thus the provision and maintenance of transportation infrastructure. This is very important in rural areas, where improvement to rotation means access to jobs, health care, streams of commerce, and where if we fail on transportation, communities may fail.
▶ 0:41:24Chief Hoskin: Nowhere is there a better example of the power and promise of isdeaa than health care. 50 years ago, I was born in the claremore indian hospital, an ihs facility. In two weeks some of the cherokee nation will assume operation at claremore. It will become our welfare it will become our wel health care facility --hour 12 health care facility.
▶ 0:41:53Chief Hoskin: We will immediately invest $11 billion in the facility to bring up to our standards commanded two years, we will replace it with a brand-new facility with a wellness center. We are building toward a world-class system of wellness, mostly in rural areas, because we are control of our health care destiny. To priorities, we shape programs, redesign these amazing health care facilities.
▶ 0:42:16Chief Hoskin: We partner with institutions like oklahoma state university and university of oklahoma on world-class cancer care and research. Role health care in this -- rural health care in this nation is struggling. Cherokee health care with over 2 million visiting patients a year, every federally recognized tribe wants to use our services. We are thriving in rural america. Last year, we came to the rescue of the united states.
▶ 0:42:46Chief Hoskin: The v-8 was shutting down a clinic in my hometown. The last administration shut it down when the lease was lost. We stepped in, we took action, we succumb to the bonita cherokee nation health center. We have room for you. We saved health care for all veterans in that rural community. We have been demonstrated conclusively that when tribes control their own destiny, we drive.
▶ 0:43:16Chief Hoskin: We are better off today than we have been in generations, socially, politically, economically, because of self-governance. It is the difference maker. We strongly support the expansion of these authorities, and we stand ready to avail ourselves to any expansion in the area of self-governance. I appreciate the opportunity to testify and certainly answer any questions.
▶ 0:43:36Chair Murkowski: Thank you, chief. We are watching your successes. We appreciate it. Mr. joseph, welcome to the committee.
▶ 0:43:46Mr. Joseph: Thank you. Chairman murkowski, vice chairman schatz, and members of the committee, thank you for the opportunity to testify today. I appreciate the opportunity to testify about the indian self-determination and education assistance act, or isdeaa. My name is victor joseph, and I also serve as the cochair of the ihs national tribal budget formulation work group.
▶ 0:44:16Mr. Joseph: Tanana tribal council is part of the alaska system. 229 federally working 229 federally wor recognized tribes and organizations providing health care in alaska. With innovation and collaboration, the alaska tried system is a testament to the enhanced strength and advantages of tribal self-governance and self-determination. There are still challenges.
▶ 0:44:42Mr. Joseph: Many of our rural communities lack road access to their regional hospitals and unpredictable weather and make airline travel unreliable. These challenges led to two innovations. Within the tribal health system, first, telehealth services. Decades before the widespread adoption seen today, the technology health care, workers that make up the backbone of our system.
▶ 0:45:10Mr. Joseph: Second, community health aide programs. Community health aides, behavioral health aides, and dental health aides, therapists, who all originated in alaska, provided critical services for the most part come from their communities and support tribal leadership. However, despite the remarkable success of isdeaa, opportunities for further improvement remain.
▶ 0:45:36Mr. Joseph: Alaska communities without running water are five times more likely to be hospitalized for respiratory infection, 11 times more likely to be hospitalized for pneumonia, compared to the general population. In underserved communities, one in three infants will be hospitalized every year due to the lack of running water.
▶ 0:45:58Mr. Joseph: As new sanitation systems get installed, our existing it's a treasure ages, adequate operations and maintenance funding is necessary to protect the federal investment and health of our people. Ihs has the authority to fund operation and maintenance of these systems. I respectfully request the community to direct ihs to work with tribes to identify the current and projected operation maintenance needs to inform the future agencies budget requests. Additionally, the p.r.c.
▶ 0:46:27Mr. Joseph: Program is a significant component of the ihs and tribal health delivery model. Recognizing that all services are available within the system and that transportation to care within the tribal health are to a non-tribal health provider, it's necessary for health care access. In alaska, p.r.c.
▶ 0:46:52Mr. Joseph: Spending on transportation services, which are necessary to access higher care in much of alaska, has increased dramatically, due to the significant escalation in tribal costs, threatening our ability to maintain access to care for those living in rural communities. Ihs steadily operate programs that maintain significant, unobligated, or un-p.r.c.
▶ 0:47:23Mr. Joseph: Balances. This threatens to undermine p.r.c. Needs. On behalf of those we serve, we respectfully ask congress to expand the p.r.c. Budget, address the increased cost of presentation. The p.r.c. Program has not received a meaningful program increase in over a decade and has been flat funded in the past cisc -- six fiscal years. Ihs remains a key federal partner.
▶ 0:47:48Mr. Joseph: It is critical that ihs receive adequate funding to hire and maintain their staff, from timely technical and legal assistance to engineering and environment the health support. When ihs is not provided the resources needed to maintain its personnel, all tribes, direct services, and compacting pay the price.
▶ 0:48:10Mr. Joseph: As this committee rightfully focuses on the success and potential opportunities associated with isdeaa, the alaska tried system serves -- the alaska system serves as an example, and we support the government. Thank you for the opportunity to testify today.
▶ 0:48:36Chair Murkowski: Thank you. We appreciate you making the trek. Mr. jay spaan.
▶ 0:48:44Mr. Spaan: Chairman murkowski, vice chairman schatz, and members of the committee, thank you for the opportunity to testify today. My name is jay spaan, and I'm the executive director of self-governance communication and education tribal consortium. Isdeaa is 50 years old. Isdeaa affirmed that tribes have the inherent right to govern our own affairs and give us the tools to assume our federal program and self-governance compacts.
▶ 0:49:14Mr. Spaan: Today, nearly all tribes operate programs under isdeaa and more than 400 tribes you self-governance authority to deliver a wide range of services. The last 50 years have proven that isdeaa is a success. Communities are strengthened, and federal dollars are used more efficiently. This has proven that producing bureaucracy, strengthening local control, and improving efficiency.
▶ 0:49:39Mr. Spaan: We are encouraged by inherent federal funding and efforts to modernize outdated systems. One predates self-governance and impedes tribes from tailoring programs without unnecessary approval. At a ihs, secretary kennedy has reaffirmed hhs was a commitment to shifting authority and researchers -- resources closer to tribal community. However, we see troubling statements.
▶ 0:50:09Mr. Spaan: For instance, the newly's guidance opposes appraisal standards that will be impossible to meet, resulting in a potential violation of isdeaa 's fair competition requirement. The law requires the drawdown, a bird in that conflict with the law and was never agreed upon and binding agreement.
▶ 0:50:32Mr. Spaan: Additionally, tribes are being asked to test they know you some grant funds critical to supplement under the self-governance programs for activities before releasing the funds. Adding new reforms are contrary to the key tenant of self-governance. Similarly, ihs revised personnel agreements, discouraging use of lawn standing arrangements to help retain qualified staff to these unilateral changes undermine self-governance.
▶ 0:50:59Mr. Spaan: We are also disappointed that critical funding and key personnel needed to ensure success are not being protected. Tribal leaders, gao, and the U.S. commission on civil rights of all board inadequate resources, limited ability of tribes to assume programs under isdeaa, get the fiscal year 26 budget and significant cuts to bia programs that tribes already operate or are forced to assume. Attempts to extend pathways while slashing resources is defeating.
▶ 0:51:29Mr. Spaan: Downsizing your agencies without regard for their roles and self-governance has stalled negotiations, created inefficiencies, and limited expansion of self-governance. Workforce reductions at ihs have left some food and not be able to negotiate. Delays and lack of response remain serious challenges that both bia and ihs. Many wait weeks or months for basic responses.
▶ 0:51:55Mr. Spaan: The advisory committee has also cautioned that the proposal to centralize negotiations at headquarters may slow negotiations, trigger more final offers, and we can make long-standing tribal area of. Equally troubling, reports that federal employees discouraging tribal leaders from pursuing self-governance through direct interference or misuse of determinations. 50 years after isdeaa became law, this is unacceptable.
▶ 0:52:23Mr. Spaan: Timely responsiveness and respect for tribal authority is nonnegotiable. Despite these challenges, self-governance remains successful and now spans transportation, distribution, and force management across multiple agencies. In conclusion, self-governance fulfills trust and pretty responsibility some advances efficiency and accountability, and strengthens tribal sovereignty, but it cannot succeed if funding is cut, critical staff is reduced, or new barriers and misinformation undermine tribal authority.
▶ 0:52:49Mr. Spaan: We offer the following regulations, one can venture full, stable funding for programs eligible first self-governance. Two, make payments to mandatory corporation. Three, line workforce decisions to strengthen, not we could be federal tribal self-governance partnership. Four, robust consultation before structural changes. Lastly, expand to additional hhs and usda programs.
▶ 0:53:14Mr. Spaan: This will help significantly to reduce unnecessary grant burdens. This concludes my statement, and I'm pleased to answer any questions.
▶ 0:53:23Chair Murkowski: Thank you to all of our witnesses. It is clear from those of you who have participated today that 50 years later, we are in agreement that isdeaa is not only good, it is important, and it has led to a level of empowerment and self-determination that we see not just in words but in practice, on the ground, making a difference, whether you are in oklahoma, alaska, or other parts around the country.
▶ 0:53:56Chair Murkowski: I want to ask you, first off, Mr. bellmard, Mr. spaan has kind of outline some recommendations here in terms of ways to move forward to ensure that the vision of isdeaa really does move forward.
▶ 0:54:22Chair Murkowski: And we recognize that so much of what happens on the ground requires that level of processing, if you will. You've got to have folks that are in the department, so you have to have adequate staffing, you have to have adequate funding. Both doi and hhs have undergone and are undergoing workforce reorganizations.
▶ 0:54:45Chair Murkowski: We see in retirements and resignations of staff probably with some pretty institutional knowledge that are no longer in place. And I have been hearing tribal leaders express some frustration that interior is not timely in his response for a request for information or in self-governance negotiations.
▶ 0:55:09Chair Murkowski: So, can you share with the committee how many efp's your agency staff has been reduced, since the beginning of this administration? Do you have those numbers?
▶ 0:55:22Mr. Bellmard: I don't have those exact numbers, but -- and thank , you for the question, senator. What we done with our hallway and self-governance as we have moved our offices directly in our hallway across from where I am not, so I can monitor our self-governance activities. We are always undergoing attempts to train our staff sufficiently.
▶ 0:55:53Mr. Bellmard: We send people out on negotiations every time we have a request, and as far as any kind of effective diminution in any activities, we have not seen that, as far as what we've been told. Our staff has a sense of urgency, and we ask them to comport with the ideas embodied in. Isdeaa-- in isdeaa.
▶ 0:56:24Chair Murkowski: Let me then asked to chief hoskin, you have cited too many of the successes. Are you having challenges with regards to any self-governance negotiations?
▶ 0:56:42Chair Murkowski: Any delays coming out of the department of interior or within ihs, specifically that you might want to share? This is an oversight hearing, so I appreciate that you are trying to make do with less, often times, but it would be helpful if we have some examples are perhaps areas that we need to work on.
▶ 0:57:07Chief Hoskin: Well, thank you, chairman. Our concerns right now are anticipatory based on sort of the unknown and the seeming instability that has occasioned these risks. Self-governance is not about the wholesale transfer of government functions. It's about the meaningful transfer. The meaningful transfer has to include technical assistance.
▶ 0:57:31Chief Hoskin: So if we are seeking technical assistance and we know there's been a risk, we do have concerns that in the future, as we need to lean in and ask for assistance, that the assistance will be slower to come. We know that the additional administrative burnings, and jay spaan spoke to those, means that there may be more occasions to reach out and say, are we compliant with these new, you know, anti-d.e.I. Standards, for example? We need to know that.
▶ 0:58:00Chief Hoskin: More burdens and less staff logically means inefficiency, from our standpoint. So, that is sort of an anticipatory concern, as we get further into this administration.
▶ 0:58:13Chair Murkowski: Let me ask you another question, Mr. bellmard, as to whether or not you are taking steps to change your payment mechanisms so that funds transfer directly to tribes like they do in ihs. Is that something you're working on within the department?
▶ 0:58:33Mr. Bellmard: Thank you for the yes. Question. There were some issues earlier this year through the treasury department and the payment requirements. There was a requirement for justifications on each of those payments.
▶ 0:58:53Mr. Bellmard: As soon as we got that information, we began negotiating with treasury, and that we have an agreement in principle with treasury that, of course, being the government, we have to work through, that requirement for justifications will, once there is an actual list of all the recipients of self-governance funds, justifications will no longer be required for those payments.
▶ 0:59:23Chair Murkowski: They will be similar to what we see.
▶ 0:59:26Mr. Bellmard: Yes.
▶ 0:59:27Chair Murkowski: Senator schatz?
▶ 0:59:29Sen. Schatz: Thank you. Thank you to all of our test fires. Mr. spaan, I want to start with you. I know that potentially $25 billion her head up -- are held up, but over $4 billion in b.I.e. And bia funding.
▶ 0:59:49Sen. Schatz: You testified there are 638 drawdowns for what kind of additional information is being requested and sort of the frustrations you are hearing from tribes?
▶ 1:00:02Mr. Spaan: Yes, thank you, vice chairman schatz. As far as self government funding goes, what we are seeing is that the system that tribes use for treasury, it is a reimbursement based system for grants, and doi choose to use that for its funds. Ihs and the department presentation to direct transfers, which is a much more effective mechanism.
▶ 1:00:34Mr. Spaan: Because it is using that, treasury at a justification field. A tribe has to submit information into that section of the system before they can drive down. By submitting, tribes are very concerned that someone will be reviewing it and saying their submission was not sufficient and hold up if there will be delays.
▶ 1:00:54Mr. Spaan: Isdeaa is very clear that agencies do not have the authority to infer additional rules, and transfer of funds must be timely and without the length of anyway.
▶ 1:01:07Sen. Schatz: Do you think they are violating federal law right now?
▶ 1:01:12Mr. Spaan: They are not compliant with is compliant with isdeaa.
▶ 1:01:16Sen. Schatz: Thank you. Give me more information on the departmental efficiency review process. I'm told it requires levels of approval on all negotiations and contract, including 638, and it is making tough budgets and staffing shortages at ihs even worse. Is that your best estimate of what is happening?
▶ 1:01:39Mr. Smith: Thank you, Mr. vice chairman. Payments are being made in accordance with the isdeaa, but you are correct, for acquisitions and contracts, we are implementing the executive order, which does bring in an additional level of review, utilizing our presidential appointee approver and review process.
▶ 1:02:09Mr. Smith: We seen middle -- minimal to no impact of this process at indian health service.
▶ 1:02:18Sen. Schatz: Is that your sense of what is happening? I'm not trying to be too adversarial here, but you are saying no delays. Mr. spaan, is that true, from the perspective of the tribes, the 638?
▶ 1:02:24Mr. Spaan: What we see and for the most part, the delays are within whatever grant funds are being drawn down. With the additional justification requirements associated with the grant, so our tribes will go to different money, they will go money, they will get an emailed come asking for a justification, another email saying this is not sufficient. Another saying, please testify you are not using this for d.e.I. Activities.
▶ 1:02:49Sen. Schatz: Is this working?
▶ 1:02:57Mr. Smith: As you know, indian health service this is not a large grantmaking facility. We do have a few.
▶ 1:02:59Sen. Schatz: At a more basic level, do you think this is working, or do you think we have some kinks to work out together? Do you think this is functioning well?
▶ 1:03:07Mr. Smith: I agree, improvements can always come together.
▶ 1:03:10Sen. Schatz: I will take it/. -- it. Did you -- did hhs engage in any formal tribal consultation before implementing these changes?
▶ 1:03:25Mr. Smith: As I mentioned, these were executive orders. If applied to the federal executive agencies, so as part of implementation, the order is for notification.
▶ 1:03:37Sen. Schatz: Notification?
▶ 1:03:39Mr. Smith: Correct.
▶ 1:03:41Sen. Schatz: So there is an executive order, and, of course, tribes and everyone else got notified. That's not what I'm asking, as you know. I'm asking about tribal consultation, and you are more deeply ensconced in this will even then I am. So was there any tribal consultation?
▶ 1:04:00Mr. Smith: No, there was no formal initiation of tribal consultation.
▶ 1:04:06Sen. Schatz: Is that something we want to consider?
▶ 1:04:09Mr. Smith: We can certainly take that back and review. I would say that executive orders only apply to executive agencies.
▶ 1:04:19Sen. Schatz: Just finally, the chair and I sent a letter now months ago, and we have not received a response from the secretary. When do you think is a reasonable time to respond to our letter?
▶ 1:04:38Mr. Smith: I will certainly follow up. As you mentioned, communications are key. We all want them to be timely. I will kick this back today and see if we can't find out.
▶ 1:04:53Sen. Schatz: I'm a little concerned. I have talked to the secretary directly about his commitment to native people. He told me he initiated the phone call and said that he wanted to follow his uncle close the legacy of taking care of native people. And so I wonder whether he even got this letter, and I wonder if he's even tracking what is being done in his department to native people, and I would just like to flag best for you. We wrote a letter come on a bipartisan basis.
▶ 1:05:24Sen. Schatz: It was not adversarial. We are doing what we always do. But not responding to us puts us in a different posture, and I would really like to make sure that the secretary is aware that all of this is happening, and that on a bipartisan basis, we have some alarm, and that we would like to resolve this as soon as possible. Thank you.
▶ 1:05:45Chair Murkowski: I believe it is senator smith.
▶ 1:05:51Sen. Smith: Great. Thank you so much, chair murkowski and vice chair schatz. I just want to follow up on this one, a question that senator schatz was getting on. I will turn to you, Mr. spaan. Your whole point of isdeaa was to promote sovereignty and to change the relationship between the federal government and sovereign tribal nations, to try to end the paternalism that characterized the federal government's relationship with tribes.
▶ 1:06:18Sen. Smith: So it seems to me that tribal consultation is sort of a foundation of this relationship, and for changes to be made to isdeaa, without tribal consultation, it seems like it kind of goes to the foundation of this. So could you just -- and I've asked, you know, other folks in the administration at other times around this, and I want to be clear -- I don't think this is -- both democratic and republican administrations need to be better at this.
▶ 1:06:48Sen. Smith: So I'm not making a partisan point here. But could you just talk a bit more about what that tribal consultation begins and why it is important, and where you are seeing some breakdowns in the system that would come if we improve that, would save us a lot of time and money.
▶ 1:07:03Mr. Spaan: Thank you, senator smith. We definitely believe tribal consultation is essential, particularly under self-governance partnership. Tribes are implementing and administering these programs, so every decision that the federal agency makes impacts the tribe and how they operate.
▶ 1:07:21Mr. Spaan: We saw an example recently to the changes to section 105 l, and the changes that the alliance said they do not believe are substantial, the tribe disagreed significantly. Requiring three comparables, wish for role and isolated villages is impossible to get.
▶ 1:07:45Mr. Spaan: They've been dealing with us for year and have all said -- with this for years, and they have all said this is a big problem. They were personnel changes at ihs. This has caused tribes to steer away from using these agreements. Very critical pieces and tools that congress gave tribes to make sure the success of self-governance. Making these changes without understanding and how it affects tribes is very concerning them and we do urge the agency to do consultation before making any of these changes.
▶ 1:08:15Sen. Smith: And even if you were to, you know, remove from the equation come in all fairness, the question of motive, why would you make these changes without, you know, doing the proper consultation? You can certainly conclude that it increases kind of the waste in the system, right? The time is wasted, the money that is wasted. I mean, this is the beauty of appropriate consultation, it is that it protects everybody from that huge downside, right?
▶ 1:08:46Mr. Spaan: Yes, that is correct.
▶ 1:08:49Sen. Smith: Chief hoskin, I really appreciated your testimony and your elucidation of the power of self-governance agreements, to really unleash the creativity and the entrepreneurship and the power, economic power and all of the power of native people. I'm just thinking about particularly the 638 authorities, and what a difference that makes. If you did not have that, like, what would you not have been able to do?
▶ 1:09:19Sen. Smith: What impact would that have had if that authority was not there for your people?
▶ 1:09:24Chief Hoskin: Thank you, senator. I think just comparing this indian health service facility in claremore, again, to repeat, I was born they are. Actually, I was born in the old one. The new one came after I was born, and it is now old and needs to be replaced. We can see a world in which we go into, and this is my friend, Mr.
▶ 1:09:48Chief Hoskin: Smith, I won't ask him this question, but he would admit that cherokee nation run circles around the indian health service, just because of our system. You go across all of our facilities, they are state-of-the-art, world-class.
▶ 1:10:04Chief Hoskin: We are driven to the patient at the center, build up from there, put every penny of third-party revenue, which we are generating at a much higher rate than indian health service has ever done, and putting it right back into not only conventional health care but wellness center, other ways to look at health care holistically. We can plan that, we can lean into diabetes care, we can eradicate hepatitis c by working with a pharmaceutical company, we can get our people in place to do better and learn better about nutrition, because we decided it.
▶ 1:10:35Chief Hoskin: That does not happen in a world without 638 contracts.
▶ 1:10:38Sen. Smith: In my book, you are always going to know what works best and how to do it best, because you are closest to the issues, you are closest to the people. And so, you know, it seems to me to be self-evident. I know I'm out of time, madam chair, but I want to just make a point here. Maybe this could be a follow up with Mr.
▶ 1:11:01Sen. Smith: Bellmard, that we can follow up on, you know, later, but it has become so clear to me that there are many federal agencies and folks in federal agencies that don't fully understand the power of 638 authority. I've worked for quite a long time with the department of agriculture to try to break through this. You've been so helpful to me, Mr. spaan, as we've been trying to figure out come in a bipartisan way, to get full authority for the program and for tribal food sovereignty, and clearly there's a lot of folks in the federal government who don't know what to do.
▶ 1:11:31Sen. Smith: And I think this is a big opportunity, Mr. bellmard, to the folks in your area who do know what to do. So I would like to follow-up with you on this and how we can get a commitment to work more closely together, so that we can break out some of these barriers on the agency side that Mr. spaan has highlighted.
▶ 1:11:53Chair Murkowski: Thank you. I appreciate what you have said about that. In my experience, there are clearly departments that get 638 contracting, and how it works and the benefits, and there are others where there was almost a cultural resistance. And we've got to figure out how we break that down. Senator cortez masto.
▶ 1:12:21Sen. Masto: I could not agree more. Here is my challenge. We do not want to add more barriers and burdens than already exist, we want to make it more efficient.
▶ 1:12:39Sen. Masto: What I am hearing today at least is when it comes to drawing down grant funding, there is additional justifications required, and those additional justifications are because of executive orders that have been issued, is that correct? Mr. smith or Mr. bellmard.
▶ 1:13:00Mr. Bellmard: There was an executive order that place that justification for those funds. However, as I mentioned earlier, we are working with the treasury department. We believe we have found a solution to that that would allow, once the recipient list goes to treasury of all the self-governance funds, they will not be a requirement for justifications.
▶ 1:13:32Sen. Masto: Is that in writing?
▶ 1:13:36Mr. Bellmard: We are undergoing that and working of the procedure that will allow for that to happen.
▶ 1:13:40Sen. Masto: When it is in writing, could you share that with us?
▶ 1:13:44Mr. Bellmard: Certainly.
▶ 1:13:45Sen. Masto: What about you, Mr. smith? Any order dictating what you can or can't do when it comes to grant funding?
▶ 1:13:51Mr. Smith: We have the executive order. The department of health and human services, we wer very targetede -- wer. -- we were very targeted. There were unique laws that comfortably.
▶ 1:14:11Mr. Smith: When you hear contract or compact, they immediately run to the federal acquisition regulations, these are not governed by the federal acquisition regulations or governed by the grants.
▶ 1:14:26Sen. Masto: I understand the challenges you are facing. Has the education helped?
▶ 1:14:29Mr. Smith: Absolutely.
▶ 1:14:30Sen. Masto: Will we see changes so they are complying with the law?
▶ 1:14:33Mr. Smith: As I mentioned, we are not experienced, are not experienced -- experiencing what our colleagues are experiencing but we will coordinate so we are on the same page.
▶ 1:14:46Sen. Masto: From both of you, I am curious to follow on the fte's. Where do you stand now if the employees that you have? What is the hiring freeze? How many did we lose? How many positions are vacant? Is that impeding the ability to do your job and what we have heard here is, is that causing some of the delay as well?
▶ 1:15:08Mr. Smith: Certainly, they have been caring a 30% vacancy rate across the board. In january, we had 15,218 employees. We always have her around the 15,000 mark -- hover around the 15,000 mark. This month we are down to 14,613. There's been no change to the fte or reductions at the force at indian health services.
▶ 1:15:38Mr. Smith: We know that if a tribe assumes an operation, there is going to be a natural reduction in force in that area. As an agency, no, but we have been able to work under hhs leadership on limited exemptions. These are hard for us to keep up with right now but we are working to identify the most critical needs.
▶ 1:16:00Sen. Masto: Thank you. And let me just follow up on the ranking member's question in relation to secretary kennedy, has he consulted with hhs regarding tribal health care delivery and staffing shortages?
▶ 1:16:18Mr. Smith: . Yes --
▶ 1:16:20Mr. Smith: Yes. He immediately stepped in. He has to medicated the steps he has taken prioritizing indian health service.
▶ 1:16:29Sen. Masto: Does that include addressing the staffing shortages?
▶ 1:16:32Mr. Smith: Putting people in alert. We are working with hhs leadership and the office of personal management on limited exemptions.
▶ 1:16:41Sen. Masto: I've got one specific question to nevada and we've got a short a man of time -- urban indians have provided essential services for years. Recently hhs notified the grant under the family violence prevention and services culturally specific domestic violence and sexual violence services program was terminated.
▶ 1:17:04Sen. Masto: It was awarded to them by acf, the administration of children's and families and has since been terminated which resulted in the nevada indians having to lay off two of their employees and impeded their ability to offer trauma-informed culturally rooted services to women and children who are victims of the Mr. balance -- victims of domestic violence.
▶ 1:17:29Sen. Masto: I am asking you if you would respond to me as to why that graduates terminated and if there is a way to get that going again. I would surely love to know why.
▶ 1:17:40Mr. Smith: I am happy to follow up with our colleagues and bring this to their attention.
▶ 1:17:45Sen. Masto: Thank you.
▶ 1:17:47Chair Murkowski: Thank you, senator cortez masto. We will begin a second round for those interested. You mentioned the 105l leases, we all know this is a critical tool for the tribes as they are delivering government services.
▶ 1:18:09Chair Murkowski: We heard earlier this month about some of the changes made to the guidebook. The dia, the technical assistance guidebook. You referenced the use of three comparable sites and appraisals. Mr. bellmard.
▶ 1:18:37Chair Murkowski: I am going to ask the question to you. What we are trying to do here is meet the requirements of the law and the requirements of the trust responsibility.
▶ 1:18:52Chair Murkowski: When you put in place guidance that is really not only not practical, but simply not workable in a place like alaska, again requiring the use of three comparable sites in appraisals where you simply do not have comparable facilities, I am assuming somebody just was not thinking about the challenges we face in so many parts of the
▶ 1:19:24Chair Murkowski: Country. Most particularly up in alaska. You are implementing before tribal consultation has occurred and now you have situations where you have put yourself in an untenable place. How do you unwind this?
▶ 1:19:46Chair Murkowski: Because of these stained place -- stay in place, you have effectively stalled implementation and you have certainly done nothing to reduced about love you're already dealing with. Talk to me about one simple example like this.
▶ 1:20:09Mr. Bellmard: Thank you, senator, for that question. If I may expand on this idea, before I came here, I was a trouble attorney for 35 years. I lived in my o I lived in my -- I lived and my office was in a town of about 3500 people. We took advantage of the 135l program which is a. Popular program to get three comps in oklahoma, I would agree like alaska, that is impossible.
▶ 1:20:41Mr. Bellmard: When we have started hearing in our how we that there had been some decision related to this guidebook, we immediately talked to our self-governance people and ask them to reach out to find out where that actual information in the guidebook had come from and to confirm that is actually what we are doing.
▶ 1:21:03Mr. Bellmard: And if it is what we are doing, we have asked our folks not to do that until they can spend some time with us so we can determine why the decision in this guidebook was made for these three comps because it is not practical for rural indian country.
▶ 1:21:25Chair Murkowski: I am glad to hear you say it. I asked that you move expeditiously on this because if this is in place and you do have folks that are looking at things saying we'll have the three comps so we cannot do it, what you're doing is adding to further delay in execution of these 105l leases. And that is absolutely opposite of what we are trying to do here.
▶ 1:21:59Chair Murkowski: Mr. joseph, I wanted to ask you about the alaska tribal health compact and the success we see. We are not always recognized for the bright successes we have, often times our statistics really drive negative stories, but south-central foundation has a recognized model which transformed health care delivery
▶ 1:22:31Chair Murkowski: Through the system of care. The chiefs conference built a system that delivers comprehensive health care across some of the most remote communities and I think it really speaks to the level of innovation we have seen under that compact.
▶ 1:22:49Chair Murkowski: I am often asked, how can the lessons that have been learned from models like what nuca and tcc have done, how can these be translated and applied more broadly across ihs and the tribal systems nationwide? You've got good examples in oklahoma and alaska where exceptional things have happened.
▶ 1:23:20Chair Murkowski: You mentioned the success in telehealth. We were pushing that out long before anyone else did it, because of necessity. The committee to health -- the community healthaides is a model others look to and say, how did you do that? The program we began, the dental health therapists -- dental health aides.
▶ 1:23:52Chair Murkowski: What then has been able to do for oral health. We have had so many good successes. How do we take what we have proved out in hard to find success places like we often see in alaska and build these into other systems? Or is this so you need to alaska that it is only going to work at home?
▶ 1:24:16Mr. Joseph: Thank you, chairman markowski.
▶ 1:24:19Chair Murkowski: You can tell I am really proud of what is in place.
▶ 1:24:24Mr. Joseph: I am proud listening to your knowledge about was successes that has had in alaska. To answer your question, to me there is the success and the compact itself is the willingness for all the tribes to come together with the regional providers under consensus and say, this is what is going to work for us.
▶ 1:24:49Mr. Joseph: And through each of the tribes -- and each of the tribes are able to self govern what they need and be able to work through. Taking the successes and innovations from one area to another area is really important.
▶ 1:25:07Mr. Joseph: And it is so important that not only is it important for indian country, it is important to rural america as well, and internationally we are seeing more and more people wanting to come to alaska to see, how are you guys doing this? Providing affordable health care. That is efficiently delivering a health care system.
▶ 1:25:32Mr. Joseph: In chap, the committee health aide program, it is a prime example of what can be done nationally as we see that being rolled out now to more than 48 tribes. And seeing that success is really important.
▶ 1:25:55Mr. Joseph: What I would hope to see, though, is more commute negation between alaskan compactors and the tribes that have these programs or whatever tribe that we are trying to share information with -- see less burden and control and allow more freedom for development. You are taking a program developed at home and you want to share with other tribes.
▶ 1:26:21Mr. Joseph: Let them share it with them and work with the tribes to knock down the barriers that could inhibit our delay of the services. I just believe there is a lot of opportunity for us to learn from one another and share, and those avenues are sometimes created -- we can create more to expand those types of programs that would be beneficial. I would like to stop there.
▶ 1:26:51Mr. Joseph: On that answer. If I could expand a little bit, you talked a little bit about 105l. I want to give you a couple prime examples. If you give me a couple more minutes, I would like to jump into that. Recently, canada has been applying for the 105l. What we are seeing is a couple significant differences between health services, ihs and bia, and basically the timeliness that it takes to get it done.
▶ 1:27:19Mr. Joseph: We are looking at three to four months to work on the agreements. And they can take up to right now we are being told up to 13 months for bia. There's a significant time difference in what is happening.
▶ 1:27:37Mr. Joseph: At the end of the day, it is all going to go back, to the date of your application, but that is still a significant delay when we are looking at 105l, an important component for the tribes.
▶ 1:27:52Mr. Joseph: Secondly when you're talking about what it takes to get comps and when you're looking at maybe multiplying that times three to get three comps, the cost to just get one comp is really significant. And it took us months to get through that.
▶ 1:28:15Mr. Joseph: And it depends on a number of facilities you have to have comped and each one of those come at an additional cost. In alasa in alaska, if you're looking at how to bring three to the table so you can work through the 105 agreement, that is going to be a very high cost.
▶ 1:28:34Mr. Joseph: In alaska, also very hard to do because we are trained to find people to go out to our communities to do these evaluations in assessment -- and assessments. That is important.
▶ 1:28:50Mr. Joseph: The lasting at like to say -- last thing I would like to say, I've worked with a lot of great people on all sides and they all mean really good but you also talked about the shortage the staff has and we have seen significant shortages in alaska and how that is being delivered. -- in how that is being delivered. I would like to talk more about that later. Thank you for this time.
▶ 1:29:17Chair Murkowski: I appreciate you filling in some of those details. It is time, it is money -- it is time, it is money. Senator schatz.
▶ 1:29:29Vice Chair Schatz: In your testimony, he referred to misinformation to the tribes about the 638 process. Indicating there's been some active discouragement of people trying to pursue 638 arrangements. Can you tell me what you mean by that?
▶ 1:29:48Mr. Spaan: . Yes thank you for the question. We have seen concerning dialogue from ihs employees with a couple of tribes looking to move into a self-governance agreement where we see ihs employees directly law -- directly lobbying them and discouraging them from entering the agreement.
▶ 1:30:10Mr. Spaan: We have should information the committee saying of a tribe takes it over then members of the tribe will not be eligible for services anymore which is completely false information. They have tried to derail efforts.
▶ 1:30:26Mr. Spaan: We have also seen situations at bia where tribe was looking to take over functions under its agreement and whatever they asked bia for nontribal shares, the amount of funding for the activities, bia came back and said this is an inherently federal functions of the amount they would get was negative funding if they wanted to enter into this agreement.
▶ 1:30:47Vice Chair Schatz: I don't want to get any tribe or percentage trouble book could you please provide those to the committee?
▶ 1:30:56Mr. Spaan: Is it ok have asked permission of the tribe?
▶ 1:30:59Vice Chair Schatz: Yes. Mr. bellmard. I guess I am not familiar enough with the operation of these agreements. They should just work. Right? But here we are. There is a new field that requires justification and then it gets kicked to treasury for one last year of review, am I right so far?
▶ 1:31:23Mr. Bellmard: That was a situation but we believe we are solving that so justifications will not be required, once we enter into our agreement with treasury on the asap payments.
▶ 1:31:37Vice Chair Schatz: Once you enter into an agreement with treasury. Why do you need an agreement with treasury on this matter?
▶ 1:31:46Mr. Bellmard: The payments are through the asap system.
▶ 1:31:52Vice Chair Schatz: I get that they sit on the money, is that the only reason? It doesn't seem to be justified -- I don't mean justified. It doesn't seem to be based on federal law that treasury gets a final layer of review. Does it?
▶ 1:32:08Mr. Bellmard: Senator, some of the questions you're are asking me are the same questions we were asking when we were made aware of how those payments were being held up.
▶ 1:32:22Mr. Bellmard: And that is where we undertook discussions to figure out a way to work with the systems of those justifications would not be necessary which is what we believe we worked out with the idea of all the recipients.
▶ 1:32:43Mr. Bellmard: There would be a list of recipients that would go to treasury and once that is all worked out, those -- there would no longer be justifications necessary.
▶ 1:32:54Vice Chair Schatz: Do you need one approved by treasury and then you are good or justifications are no longer necessary?
▶ 1:33:01Mr. Bellmard: My understanding, senator, is once there is the recipient list these tribes have of payments that no justifications will be necessary.
▶ 1:33:17Vice Chair Schatz: In order to get on the recipient list -- sort of a pre-cleared list, how is that provided? Does treasury have to clear what is on the list?
▶ 1:33:32Mr. Bellmard: That is the devil in are working through.
▶ 1:33:35Vice Chair Schatz: That is everything. Isn't it? If they still get to see whether you are green, yellow or red, we are back to violating the law but even more to the point slowing things down to the point where they do not function. Right?
▶ 1:33:48Mr. Bellmard: Senator, your point is well taken. The purpose of self-governance is to make this easier for tribes to have their own control over these things. So, yes, it is a bit of a conundrum.
▶ 1:34:07Vice Chair Schatz: But you are satisfied and confident this is going to get resolved? Is it resolved? Where are we?
▶ 1:34:13Mr. Bellmard: I am confident it will be resolved.
▶ 1:34:16Vice Chair Schatz: Booking of timeframe are you looking at, days, weeks, months?
▶ 1:34:22Mr. Bellmard: When we found out about this, we started working on it immediately. As we were preparing for this particular hearing, when it came up again, we redoubled our efforts and our inquiries to find out when we could actually get the proper documentation in place.
▶ 1:34:47Vice Chair Schatz: I know you have been working on this and page sounds like you have accelerated it. My question is how long from now do we anticipate this being resolved? This is not just some normal bureaucratic tangle. . This is money for the delivery of services that are sort of lifesaving. And it seems to me that it should not be -- the urgency should not be the hearing.
▶ 1:35:15Vice Chair Schatz: The urgency should be the statute and second of all the people with whom we have these trust and treaty obligations. Do you think this gets resolved by the end of the month, and of the year, tomorrow? When?
▶ 1:35:31Mr. Bellmard: I cannot speculate on when that is going to happen.
▶ 1:35:42Vice Chair Schatz: Thank you.
▶ 1:35:43Chair Murkowski: Just a follow on to that, are you saying there is nothing more that you are required to provide to treasury? That this is all on treasury's hands in terms of the timing all of this? -- the timing of all of this?
▶ 1:36:04Mr. Bellmard: I could not answer that for certain because I do not know what else might be required from our shop to treasury.
▶ 1:36:14Chair Murkowski: Guess what I am trying to figure out is -- this is an oversight hearing on the effectiveness of a law that has been in place now for 50 years and we have great successes. We heard about some of them. But we have also heard there are some things that need to be addressed. And that is part of what we get to do up here.
▶ 1:36:39Chair Murkowski: And sometimes when talking about what that means, it means calling up the secretary of interior or secretary of treasury and saying, we've got a situation here where fulfillment of commitments cannot happen because we've got this new process.
▶ 1:37:03Chair Murkowski: You all think that you found a way to help expedite it and that is great but to senator schatz's point, I don't think it would be acceptable to be sitting here at the end of the year and still wondering if we're going to hear anything from treasury on this.
▶ 1:37:22Chair Murkowski: So I would ask that you come back to our teams within the next couple of days here and let us know what more needs to be done within your department there.
▶ 1:37:43Chair Murkowski: Because I think this is a matter that ought not be so difficult at a time where dealing with a lot of -- we are dealing with a lot of political things. You can help us with that, I would appreciate it.
▶ 1:37:56Mr. Bellmard: We will certainly do that.
▶ 1:37:58Chair Murkowski: Thank you for that. I think we have had some good comments here today. I was really looking forward to this hearing because I think it is so important in today's world, where we recognize when we have put in place good things and the determination act is one of those good things that lead to a level of empowerment and
▶ 1:38:31Chair Murkowski: Self-determination that we continue to see the benefits of that with every single day. And with anything, nothing is perfect. When you're having to deal with government and bureaucracies, we've got our own tribal politics that folks recognize, as well.
▶ 1:38:55Chair Murkowski: But I think we have seen how important it is for the tribes to have the discretion to design and build these programs as they felt would work. We have certainly seen that play out in alaska in so many ways.
▶ 1:39:20Chair Murkowski: It is not only about the programs but what the young people see when we do this ourselves, this is our program, our people, this truly is about self-determination.
▶ 1:39:34Chair Murkowski: So I want us to go forward from this hearing thinking about what more we can do to build upon the successes and break down those impediments and barriers and those things that come up that may not kill a program but when people get discouraged, because they think things are just too hard and costs have been added, too much
▶ 1:40:05Chair Murkowski: So it doesn't make sense anymore, they kind of give up. And that is exactly the wrong way to go when we are talking about self-determination. So we want to build on the successes and we want to get the obstacles out of the way because we all need to be pulling together. To see the benefits. With that, we've all got a little homework to do from here but thank you all for being here this afternoon, for the testimony you have provided.
▶ 1:40:34Chair Murkowski: We will probably keep the record open, I think, two weeks the record is open for additional questions and comments people may have. But we will be following up on this oversight as we have with so many of other hearings, of course. With that, the committee stands adjourned. [captioning performed by the national captioning institute, which is responsible for its caption content and accuracy. Visit ncicap.org]