▶ 0:15:30Chair Paul: Welcome. Thanks for coming today. In mid-2024, as she grew increasingly critical of the biden administration and increasingly involved with the trump campaign, tulsi gabbard noticed changes as she went to the airport. She had more screening. Federal agents with dogs showing up for her flights. Other federal agents followed her on the plane. And reported back on her activity.
▶ 0:15:55Chair Paul: When I learned of this, I launched an investigation into the tsa quiet skies program and the biden administration weaponization of watchlist against everyday americans. The biden administration removed gabbard from the program but spent the remainder of their time in office stonewalling investigations. Thankfully, that era is over.
▶ 0:16:18Chair Paul: President trump himself, a victim of government weaponization, set out to reverse the previous targeting of the citizens it is sworn to protect. The secretary of homeland security has taken decisive action to eliminate bureaucratic obstacles, resisting transparency. We are finally getting answers and now we know exactly why the previous administration fought so hard to keep us in the dark. Director gabbard was surveilled on at least five domestic flights by federal air marshals.
▶ 0:16:51Chair Paul: Internal records for her targeting sure her congressional portrait and that she was a former congresswoman from hawaii. So there was no doubt they knew who they were monitoring. Multiple concerns were raised internally and one air marshal asked a colleague, why is she a quiet skies suspect? If this can happen to a combat veteran, a lieutenant colonel in the army reserve, and now director of national intelligence, it can happen to anyone. And it did.
▶ 0:17:21Chair Paul: Today, you will hear directly from a federal air marshal whose wife was labeled a domestic terrorist for engaging in protected first amendment activity. Records show the fbi labeled her as a domestic terrorist for unlawful entry into the capitol on but she did not enter the capitol. She came with public support the president and they knew it in her phone location data did not put her inside the capitol. Facial recognition did not identify her inside.
▶ 0:17:51Chair Paul: She had no criminal record or history of extreme his views. What they did know is this catholic schoolteacher from texas supported president trump and went to washington to attend his rally. That was not enough for the government, not enough to label her is suspected domestic terrorist. For two years, her family was surveilled when they flew. This was not an isolated case.
▶ 0:18:17Chair Paul: It happened to hundreds of americans because the tsa used first amendment protected activity as a predicate for watch listing americans. That is unconstitutional. First amendment activity cannot be the sole basis for watch listing someone but sole basis is an important caveat and an opening the tsa exploited.
▶ 0:18:37Chair Paul: Today we will release internal tsa records that reveal how the agency authorized first amendment activity to be used to justify surveillance of americans with no evidence or recourse. Using broad and vague authorities, tsa deemed hundreds of americans as threats to national security for holding opposing political views.
▶ 0:18:59Chair Paul: The federal government used its investigative authorities, anonymous tips, and university research institutions to build a flimsy case to put them on the watchlist. They did not just coincidentally watchlist hundreds of people who attended the same trump rally. They did it intentionally and obscured the process to create plausible deniability.
▶ 0:19:22Chair Paul: For example, documents obtained in my investigation revealed that tsa relied on data collected by the george washington university project on a shame is him. First, they fund the project on a shame is him and an external partner not bound by the same laws and regulations as federal agencies. Then the project on extremism identifies supposed domestic threats by tracking january 6 defendants.
▶ 0:19:54Chair Paul: Dhs then uses the project on extremism reporting is evidence, sometimes the only evidence, for putting someone on a watchlist. Abuses were not limited to january 6. The tsa viewed skeptics of covid mandates as threats, simply removing a mask on an aircraft got 12 americans watchlist in.
▶ 0:20:13Chair Paul: Records show three current members of congress, all republicans, were included in the companion silent partner program either as a sitting member or while seeking elected office. A cursory review would have revealed them to be a member of congress or decorated active or former U.S. military members. They were surveilled likely for activities that were official duties during their time in the military or congress.
▶ 0:20:42Chair Paul: All of this was wrong and I'm glad these abuses are beginning to be exposed. I commend secretary noem for ending quiet skies but the work is not done. We must make sure this program does not come back under another name. Every official who approved surveillance of americans for protected speech must be removed from office. Full transparency must become the rule rather than requiring a year of investigation.
▶ 0:21:10Chair Paul: The result will be a process that respect the constitution, and's real-life shadow bands against americans, and gives all of us the assurance our government is focused on protecting us, not on chasing political ghosts. I now recognize the ranking member for his opening statement.
▶ 0:21:31Sen. Peters: Thank you, chairman paul. Through my time in congress, I have heard repeatedly from my constituents, particularly from members of the michigan arab and muslim american community, about serious issues with the government watch listing and travel screening processes.
▶ 0:21:52Sen. Peters: While I appreciate the opportunity to discuss that today, I want to raise some concerns about other critical national security work this committee is responsible for but unfortunately the chairman of this committee has not prioritized. In a matter of hours, two critical homeland security authorities are set to expire.
▶ 0:22:15Sen. Peters: Cybersecurity information sharing protections to protect our economy against cyber attacks and authorities that allow federal law enforcement to detect and mitigate threats posed by drones. We were scheduled to discuss these two bills to renew and improve these authorities two weeks ago, but the chairman abruptly canceled the meeting with no explanation.
▶ 0:22:40Sen. Peters: While there is a two month extension in the continuing resolution, that is only meant to be a stopgap. The committee needs to do its work to reauthorize both of these pieces of legislation. Even though bipartisan leaders in the house as well as the trump administration and a bipartisan coalition in the senate support extending this legislation for 10 years, our chair has not held a single hearing on these issues.
▶ 0:23:10Sen. Peters: You canceled the only meeting the committee had an opportunity to discuss them here these actions risk making our nation less safe. This committee should not simply walk away from its responsibility to actually be a leader in critical homeland security matters.
▶ 0:23:28Sen. Peters: While I share your concerns about government being weaponized for political purposes, I find it odd that you have chosen to look backwards now that this program has ended while at the same time president trump is directing the justice department to prosecute his perceived enemies by ordering the closure of investigations into a local ally investigated for bribes, taking bribes.
▶ 0:24:01Sen. Peters: We regionally saw the chairman of the federal communications commission openly threatened the licenses of media companies over first amendment protected speech . I hope you will devote this committee resources to conducting oversight of the current administration as well.
▶ 0:24:16Sen. Peters: Turning to today's topic, I published a report that demonstrated how well-intentioned screening practices have ballooned into a duplicate of system that sweeps up travelers who may pose no threat to national security especially among arab, muslim, and south asian american travelers. At that time, there were at least 22 different mechanisms that could lead a traveler to receive extra screening or be denied boarding.
▶ 0:24:45Sen. Peters: Americans must navigate this complex system with no explanation of why their travel has been delayed or disrupted and they have no opportunity to address what prompted additional screening in the first place. Congress does not even have a complete picture of the full scope of the system and the impact it has had on everyday americans.
▶ 0:25:07Sen. Peters: Almost all the oversight mechanisms are internal to the executive branch, such as the privacy and civil liberties oversight board and civil rights and civil liberties office. With the ministration attacks on oversight, these mechanisms have been gutted, eliminating one of the checks and balances americans can use to protect their rights in this process.
▶ 0:25:33Sen. Peters: That is why I introduced the enhanced oversight and accountability in screening act, the first real effort to provide more transparency and oversight for the entire system of screenings that is the topic today. The legislation requires dhs to reform the redress process and provide congress with data on enhanced and secondary screenings by tsa, including effectiveness.
▶ 0:26:02Sen. Peters: At the time, I asked you to join me in working on this legislation but instead you and the republican dais voted against this transparency legislation. I am now working to update it and are left to have folks on this committee join me in reintroducing the updated version in a bipartisan way.
▶ 0:26:22Sen. Peters: As I said before, we must be able to protect our nation and americans who pose no threat to national security should not face a maze of travel screenings and a flawed of her dress process. We must bring transparency and accountability to our travel screening practices to ensure government is effectively protecting national security while also protecting civil rights and civil liberties of travelers. I would like to introduce two things into the record.
▶ 0:26:53Sen. Peters: I want to introduce a minority response to the majority report into the record to clarify some of the information the committee has received. It requires some clarification. I like to introduce my committee report from december 2023 identifying significant problems with the watchlist and screening processes and calling for reforms that pass this committee and received no republican support for the reforms that we will be talking about here today.
▶ 0:27:24Chair Paul: Without objection. You have to love fake outrage. If there was such great concern for these authorities, last week the minority -- ringing my nord he member had a chance to vote for the cr come up which extended these authorities, but he voted no. Fake outrage is great, but it is fake.
▶ 0:27:47Chair Paul: As far as the reason why we have not gone forward with the authorization, it is because it has been associated with some of the worst and most egregious abuse of first amendment. What we are talking but today with quiet skies is first amendment abuses so we want to make sure that no one in government ever uses government again to go to twitter or facebook and tell them to take down stuff that is protected by the first amendment so it is integral and we will continue to fight to make sure if it is reauthorized or any of its
▶ 0:28:17Chair Paul: Activities are reauthorized that there are first amendment protections attached.
▶ 0:28:22Sen. Peters: You are conflating peer this is not a reauthorization of the organization. This is liability protections that have been in place for 10 years.
▶ 0:28:32Chair Paul: There will be protections added to that and you haven't posted and is a problem.
▶ 0:28:37Sen. Peters: The trump administration supports the reauthorization. They have said it is essential.
▶ 0:28:44Chair Paul: And he voted against it.
▶ 0:28:46Sen. Peters: You voted against the reauthorization. You were the only objector.
▶ 0:28:51Chair Paul: And now you're for this week. All right.
▶ 0:28:55Sen. Peters: You will have a chance to vote again hearing -- again.
▶ 0:29:00Chair Paul: Excuse me. It is the practice of this committee to swear in its witnesses. Will the witnesses please rise and raise your right hand? Do you swear that the testimony you will be giving before this committee will be the truth, the whole truth, and nothing but the truth, so help you god? Thank you.
▶ 0:29:29Chair Paul: Our first witness is mark crowder, a senior federal air marshal with the U.S. transportation administration with over 20 years of experience. He served four years in united states marine corps, three years as a uniformed police officer with the cia come a and three years as a deputy sheriff in florida. You are recognized for your opening statement. >> Mr.
▶ 0:29:55Chair Paul: Crowder: good morning, chairman and members of the committee. We will try that again. Good morning, chairman, ranking member peters, and distinguished members of the committee. I will start by reading a memo that I was advised to read by my management.
▶ 0:30:20Chair Paul: The views I express are my own and should be construed as not representing the official policy or position of the department of home and security, transportation security administration or united states. -advised that whistleblowing is -- with that said, I will go into my testimony. My name is mark crowder, a senior federal air marshal with over 20 years of service protecting the american people.
▶ 0:30:50Chair Paul: In those two decades I have flown millions of miles to safeguard our nation. Like others, I answered the call to serve after the devastating attacks of september 11, 2001. Driven by unshakable resolve to ensure such a tragedy would never happen again. At its peak, the federal air marshal service embodied the highest standards of federal law enforcement. We are known for excellence in firearms, tactics, and specialized training. I come to report those standards have been eroded.
▶ 0:31:21Chair Paul: The agency's once clear mission has been distorted by career per your kratz who prioritize personal investment over safety of our citizens. My testimony -- to target the very people it serves.
▶ 0:31:43Chair Paul: On july 15, 2021, while serving in the houston field office operations unit, I was monitoring special mission coverage in our area of responsibility. I discovered my wife, sita behind makem had been flagged on the system as a domestic terrorist. Falsely accused of entering the U.S. capitol on january 6, 21. I was horrified. I knew she was nowhere near the capital that day.
▶ 0:32:11Chair Paul: My wife, who has a disability that prevents her from walking long distances, had simply exercised her first amendment right to attend a rally for president trump before returning to her hotel. As a federal air marshal with a top-secret security clearance, I reported the alarming designation to my supervisors. Noting that according to their system I was living with a terrorist, a clear insider threat.
▶ 0:32:38Chair Paul: The special agent in charge instructed me to remain silent and let the investigation run its course. Shockingly, known expressed concerns about the potential compromise of classified information through my household. He was later promoted to senior positions in the agency. From july 2021 to april 2023, christine was subjected to approximately 13 special mission coverages.
▶ 0:33:07Chair Paul: Each time she flew, teams of federal air marshal surveilled her appearance she was barred from checking in on the airport kiosk online and forced to endure long waits for tsa verification of identification and to take control of her luggage. She was subjected to invasive secondary screening at tsa security checkpoints.
▶ 0:33:30Chair Paul: After the checkpoints, she was searched again at the jetway by the tsa advanced threat local allocation strategy teams. This treatment extended to anyone traveling with her, including her elderly mother and our daughter, causing them both significant distress. In one instance, I was off duty flying armed with christine.
▶ 0:33:57Chair Paul: The team assigned to surveilled her head to coordinate with me, and armed federal air marshal traveling with an alleged terrorist. How can an agency allow such a glaring operational and ethical conflict to persist? I only learned of my wife's designation because of my insider role in the agency. How many innocent americans have been falsely labeled as terrorists and surveilled without their knowledge?
▶ 0:34:24Chair Paul: How many had conversations unknowingly monitored? With the assistance of the air marshal national council, I exposed this injustice and halted surveillance of my family.
▶ 0:34:39Chair Paul: At the same time, the quiet skies missions and those targeting americans who attended january 6 events including public figures like director national intelligence tulsi gabbard dominated famines -- fams operations p east diverted critical resources, betraying the promises we made after 9/11. Never again.
▶ 0:35:08Chair Paul: Humans describes -- the events I have described portray weaponization of law enforcement is unconscionable. Senior officials at the fbi, department of fallen security, tsa, and the fams service should have recognized these actions are beyond the scope of lawful authority and intervened.
▶ 0:35:35Chair Paul: Someone fabricated false claims about my wife's actions to advance a politically motivated agenda. Those responsible must be identified and accountability must be enforced to root out the corruption and restore public trust in law enforcement. Thank you for the opportunity to present my testimony.
▶ 0:35:54Chair Paul: Next we have tristan levitt, the president of empower oversight, an organization dedicated to strengthening public integrity through research, education, and providing pro bono legal assistance to whistleblowers. He previously served as principal deputy special counsel at the office of special counsel and the general counsel of the merit systems protection board.
▶ 0:36:26Chair Paul: >> thank you for having me to testify today. Oversight provides legal representation to whistleblowers. We are honored to represent several air marshal's. Mr. crowder came to empower through the indomitable executive director behind me appeared he raised concerns his wife had been targeted for exercising her first amendment rights alone.
▶ 0:36:53Chair Paul: And if they truly considered her some sort of threat, why was he not walled off from seeing this information? Despite his disclosures to the office of special counsel and the dhs inspector general, no meaningful investigation took place. That failure of oversight allows abuses to fester.
▶ 0:37:16Chair Paul: She contacted us in the beginning of august 2024 when air marshal's want to blow the whistle on another disturbing case, the political targeting of tulsi gabbard. The facts were alarming. She was added on july 23, 2024, 1 day after she made statements on fox news critical of vice president kamala harris.
▶ 0:37:40Chair Paul: Rather than using her put -- passport photos, tsa used her congressional photo, making clear they knew who she was. The initial whistleblower disclosures were reported. Despite empower's experience with failure to investigate the crowder situation, we asked them to investigate here and submitted disclosures to congress. Members of the committee and others pressed dhs for answers.
▶ 0:38:09Chair Paul: Your persistence helped ensure secretary noem he came aware of the bias program and ended it. Ending quiet skies was overdue. That along does not prevent what happened to the crowder's. They were not part of the quiet skies program and a program like quiet skies could be revived if we fail to learn the lessons. The first lesson is clear. Civil liberties cannot protect themselves. Independent oversight is essential for bodies like this and others.
▶ 0:38:37Chair Paul: Whenever government sites national security to conceal actions, the risk of abuse rises and only oversight can shine the light needed to stop it. In this case, more light is needed as it relates to tulsi gabbard. The new york times published a leak from the government attempting to explain away her placement on quiet skies peer the article claim her place that was related to her attending a conference of the vatican supposedly because of another attendee on the watchlist.
▶ 0:39:03Chair Paul: But the article them -- admitted she attended along mick mulvaney. If she was flagged, why wasn't he when he flew back from the conference? The government story does not add up. Credible review must answer those questions. Secretary noem announced the review revealed the quiet skies program was used as a political
▶ 0:39:28Rolodex Of The Rep. Cloud: . She provided few details. -- of the biden administration. She provided few details. These issues demand a full accounting. That is why power oversight called on the dhs inspector general to make its report public. Normally, inspector general reports with private information are kept internal. They have information about personal individuals. Given Ms.
▶ 0:39:53Rolodex Of The Rep. Cloud: Gabbard's prominence and the large amount of selective information the government already leaked, there is clear public interest in transparency. Dhs ig is released -- released similar reports before. Accountability cannot be achieved if this is swept under the rug. The investigation must look beyond the scabbard's -- Ms. gabbard's case.
▶ 0:40:22Rolodex Of The Rep. Cloud: Anyone who targeted individuals for political reasons must be held accountable. A thorough report is necessary to propose discipline for those who committed misconduct. Another of the most important lessons as none of this would have come to light without whistleblowers. It was obvious to Ms. gabbard that she was subjected to extra screening but what she did not know and would not have known what she was targeted through quiet skies. Only courageous insiders willing to speak up made that possible.
▶ 0:40:50Rolodex Of The Rep. Cloud: After their disclosures and when we brought these things to the attention of the ig, tsa opened a leak investigation. This was troubling. The legal question of whether whistleblowers may disclose information was resolved over a decade ago in the case of an air marshal when his case came to the supreme court I organized for senator grassley a bipartisan brief arguing tsa regulations could trump statutory guarantees of the whistleblower protection act.
▶ 0:41:19Rolodex Of The Rep. Cloud: Tsa still sought to investigate client disclosures as though they were unlawful leaks. That retaliation chills whistleblowers. Tsa backed down when in power exposed the investigation but those risks remained. Whistleblowers are the first line of defense. If they are silenced, the american people use one of the only tools that can bring abuses of power to light.
▶ 0:41:43Chair Paul: Our next witness is an award-winning investigative reporter and editor for racket news. He was a contributing editor at rolling stone and authored four new york times bestsellers and now writes on sub stack as one of its most popular independent columnists with tens of thousands of subscribers. You are recognized for your opening statement.
▶ 0:42:11Mr. Taibbi: Thank you and good morning. Last year, former hawaii congresswoman tulsi gabbard was placed on a surveillance program called quiet skies by the transportation security administration. She was subject to searches and trailed by three federal air marshals purple -- per flight. I contacted the tsa.
▶ 0:42:39Mr. Taibbi: They know commented -- no commented the question but said matching a risk -- a risk-based rule does not constitute derogatory information. That is we cannot say that she was in the program but do not draw conclusions because we do this even to innocent people. Before quiet skies was discontinued by the end ministration, it was a symbol of steep decline in federal enforcement since 9/11.
▶ 0:43:07Mr. Taibbi: The government spent $200 million a year following up to 50 people a day for a program that in its history never once led to an arrest or thwarted a single terrorist act. Despite its demonstrated in utility it was refunded year after year because this is what our government does now. Gasser's -- gathers information on citizens as an end in itself.
▶ 0:43:30Mr. Taibbi: In a week in which the question of whether federal security officials always tell the truth to congress is back in the news, it is worth noting it has been 13 years since james clapper answered no and not wittingly when a senator asked, does the nsa collect any data at all on millions or hundreds of millions of americans?
▶ 0:43:56Mr. Taibbi: He later explained he responded in the least most untruthful manner. That episode solidified the principle that holds in america today. If you lie about mass surveillance programs, even under oath, you not only get to keep your job, you get to be hired as a professional truth teller after retirement as a national security analyst for cnn. If you try to tell the truth about the same issues, your options are prison or leaving the country forever.
▶ 0:44:25Mr. Taibbi: In those 13 years, americans have become numb to surveillance. It was once a principle that americans should not spy -- on it citizens without provocation. We know emails and phone conversations are being collected passively and mountains of data we leave behind as our lives move out of line to travel, banking, and
▶ 0:44:57Mr. Taibbi: Medical records are increasingly fodder for covert acquisition for federal analysts. Federal officials partnered with companies not just to monitor speech but to suppress it. Quiet skies was the example of a program that could take endless liberties with the constitution because it was secret. When you gather information with no intention of ever going to court, at the tsa did with quiet skies, you never have to justify yourself to a judge.
▶ 0:45:31Mr. Taibbi: This is what one court called the exploratory rummaging the fourth of may meant was designed to prevent. This is a betrayal not just of the public but of people like Mr. crowder who have been trained for an important debt for important work but forced to do intelligence work and gather information on citizens instead. The air marshal's job is to protect the cockpit and pilots. Let somebody else do the intelligence.
▶ 0:46:03Mr. Taibbi: One fbi agent I interviewed said the distinction between people who believe bad thoughts and people who do bad things has been lost in our government since 9/11. Once you start collecting information on innocent people, it collect -- it creates intellectual justification for doing it again and again. This information gathering reverses the natural political order, giving elected officials unearned power over their bosses, us, the voters.
▶ 0:46:32Mr. Taibbi: It is time to stop being numb to this outrage. Let's hope the elimination of quiet skies is just the beginning.
▶ 0:46:39Chair Paul: The committee now welcomes jim harper, senior nonresident fellow at the american enterprise institute. His work focuses on digital privacy, privacy law, and select constitutional issues he has written amicus briefs before the U.S. supreme court and published articles in a variety of law journals.
▶ 0:47:03Mr. Harper: Thank you for the opportunity to testify before you today. I am happy to return to a committee where I was a council for a short time early in my career under the chairmanship of senator ted stevens.
▶ 0:47:19Mr. Harper: Having established that I am old I want to confess to being slightly embarrassed before all of us that my written testimony submitted to you spends as much time as it does on the problem of counterterrorism security policy which still plagues us nearly 25 years after the attacks of september 11, 2001. I wish that by now we had better systems for assessing risk and calibrating responses. I work anything tank that encourages me to call it like I
▶ 0:47:47See It Without Rep. Dent: -- reference to orthodoxies. This morning, the president of aei asked me questions about my testimony and I said you cannot ask these questions or I will have to change my opening statement. I will proceed.
▶ 0:48:03See It Without Rep. Dent: The testimony I have some at it to you is a sincere effort to summarize what my study over years has produced in terms of strategic counterterrorism in the secret he systems by which a free country should address a particularly difficult challenge. Doing security well is an american, nonpartisan interest.
▶ 0:48:23See It Without Rep. Dent: There are partisan valences to this hearing but there's opportunity here because communities and people some pathetic to both sides of the aisle have experienced the negative consequences of watch listing, including in the quiet skies program. I kept coming back to the theme that watch listing is a security and constitutional half measure. Watch listing is a system for interdicting people whose activities do not raise sufficient suspicions to merit actual interdiction through full investigation arrest and levying of terminal charges.
▶ 0:48:52See It Without Rep. Dent: By doling out minor punishments unilaterally, watch listing defies our constitutional separation of powers in which law enforcement is supposed to bring charges to be adjudicated in the separate judicial branch. It violates due process, treating people as guilty of something without providing them an opportunity to challenge that assessment.
▶ 0:49:18See It Without Rep. Dent: I placed quiet skies in a context as a form of overreaction to terrorism which as a strategy seeks to trigger victim states into ever. The waste of blood and treasure is the clearest error and a win for terrorism. A program costing hundreds of millions of dollars to achieve essentially nothing. Terrorism seeks to knock victim states author ideological moorings and delegitimize them.
▶ 0:49:46See It Without Rep. Dent: You do not have to believe in a deep state here but you can recognize that quiet skies and other watchlist and programs open our government up to the charge, which is delegitimizing. I supplied in my written testimony material on terrorism risk management produced by the department of homeland security data privacy committee in 2006. The dhs committee itself was one effort to create balance at dhs.
▶ 0:50:14See It Without Rep. Dent: The privacy impact assessment is another. They have a role not to be dismissed, but I do not think internal counterweights do enough to bring balance to security programs. Our tradition is to use tension among branches of government and agencies to bring balance. In my testimony, I broach a few methods for improving the dynamics so there would be fewer or no more quiet skies programs. First congress could delegate power from the dhs.
▶ 0:50:45See It Without Rep. Dent: We can understand the haste and uncertainty that produced broad delegation of power after the september 11 attacks, but you could specifically authorize programs that you find to be effective, de-authorize once you do not see as securing our country. Oversight hearings like this are an appropriate response. Public and judicial oversights produce balance. Secrecy is a perennial and confounding problem.
▶ 0:51:14The Book Secrecy: The american experience argued that secrecy leaves less informed and limits public debate about policy and government conduct. An additional proposal I offer is to have congress recognize travel as a right equivalent to other rights in the constitution .
▶ 0:51:38The Book Secrecy: Word recognize clearly as a right, courts would be in a better position to administer issues before it and people would be able to challenge security programs that threaten their liberties. I argue that privatizing at least some parts of travel security would produce good results. Liability rules and competitive pressures are things government does not have to help guide them. Quiet skies is gone.
▶ 0:52:09The Book Secrecy: The shoes off policy is a thing of the past and there are signals that the liquid rule may be considered. Let's see more to revamp policy so threats are in perspective and met while americans remain free to travel in possession of all their rights. Thank you.
▶ 0:52:29Chair Paul: Our next witness hails from dearborn, michigan and was a graduate of the university of michigan and the university school of law.
▶ 0:52:44Chair Paul: He serves as the director of the arab american antidiscrimination committee, committed to defending civil rights and civil liberties of all americans, including advancing due process and equal protection. Through his career, he has worked to address issues impacting arab and muslim americans in the united states, including relating to discrimination and most relevant to this hearing, watch listing and screening.
▶ 0:53:16Chair Paul: The legal to permit successfully provided pro bono support to thousands of impacted community members across the country. You are now recognized for your opening remarks.
▶ 0:53:29Mr. Ayoub: Thank you for the opportunity to testify. I am the national executive director of adc. We were founded by former senator and we have worked and assisted countless members of our community who have been directly impacted the government watchlist process. Let me start by saying something that may surprise you.
▶ 0:53:51Mr. Ayoub: I feel for republicans and anyone going through and experiencing the fallout of the watchlist issues, including missed flights, job consequences, and more without notice or a fairway to challenge it. I do not need to share their politics to understand rights and liberties are not conditional on agreement.
▶ 0:54:14Mr. Ayoub: Will they are experiencing today mirrors what arab and muslim families have endured for decades, a designation that follows you with no clear explanation or reliable fix. That is not a problem -- a partisan problem. It is a due process problem. When government can tag one group, it can quietly tag any group. Left, right, neither, depending on who holds power. The answer is the same for all of us.
▶ 0:54:46Mr. Ayoub: At minimum, implement safeguards that protect liberties and rights. Quiet skies was a disaster. Abc -- adc welcomes the decision to shut it down, retiring a program that surveilled ordinary travelers without evidence of wrongdoing is a step toward fairness. Quiet skies captures only part of the story.
▶ 0:55:08Mr. Ayoub: It is a window into faulty surveillance architecture, secret lists, vague criteria, and downstream sharing that harm to people who have done nothing wrong. For decades, the watchlist system has been a shortcut for suspicion aimed at my community members not because what we have done but because of who we are and what we believe.
▶ 0:55:31Mr. Ayoub: People get flagged after visiting family overseas, donating to lawful charities, attending protests, or simply for praying. That is punishment for religion and politics. More than 90% of the names were arab or muslim. Placement on the list does not require arrest, charge, or conviction.
▶ 0:55:56Mr. Ayoub: Instead, it is based on vague soups -- suspicion often tied to religious practice or protected political speech. Let me be clear. If a tool can quietly target my community members today, it can target any community tomorrow, journalists, activists, immigrants, gun owners, pro-life, or pro-choice advocates. The only limit is who is in power.
▶ 0:56:30Mr. Ayoub: At least cage it with real notice, evidence, hearings, and strict limits so no american's faith or viewpoint becomes a reason to be treated like a suspect. Placement on the watchlist reaches beyond the airport. These farms underscore why there must be reform to allow for removal from the list. The tracking of screenings and assurances of appropriate oversight because the human and policy costs are real.
▶ 0:56:58Mr. Ayoub: The task is larger than ending one program. We have to take immediate steps to implement due process measures to afford those on the list an opportunity to be removed. Many experts have provided a clear roadmap to fixing these immediate issues such as requiring tsa to track screenings and outcomes so we can see where the systems -- fayette -- where the system fails and who was hit hardest.
▶ 0:57:26Mr. Ayoub: Direct the spring system to protect -- reports to congress on recall of bad data and with safeguards to protect privacy while exposing bias. Third, paired transparency with teeth. Have mandatory timelines and independent review. The most urgent fix is transparency and due process. If the government is going to restrict your liberties, you've the right to know why.
▶ 0:57:54Mr. Ayoub: Dhs provides little information to travelers about why they are flagged or whether corrections are applied through the system. Without systemic tracking, travelers have no meaningful way to collect errors -- correct errors. Today, individuals on the watchlist often receive no notice and no explanation. There is room for bipartisanship on this issue. I'm confident of that. I will meet anyone halfway on this.
▶ 0:58:24Mr. Ayoub: The watchlist is about whether the government has to prove its case when it takes away your rights and limits her life. Mr. chairman and members of the committee, eliminating quiet skies was necessary but is not sufficient. Need to restore transparency and due process to protect millions of travelers and americans. We stand by and ready to assist in that effort. Thank you.
▶ 0:58:46Chair Paul: We will start a round of questions, starting with senator ernst.
▶ 0:58:52Sen. Ernst: Inc. You for calling today's hearing. For years I have been highlighting examples of government mismanagement and waste with my monthly squeal of words and the tsa's quiet skies program was a prime candidate for such an award.
▶ 0:59:13Sen. Ernst: $200 million a year was spent on a program that was weaponized by the biden administration to target political opponents, including patriotic veterans like former congresswoman tulsi gabbard. The program covered over hundred 80,000 flights since 2018 and did not stop a single terrorist attack, as many of you noted.
▶ 0:59:40Sen. Ernst: I think secretary gnome for ending this program and ensuring that tsa and dhs resources are used effectively to keep air travel safe rather than spying on and harassing law-abiding citizens. I will start with you. I am sorry to hear about the political targeting by the biden administration against your family and I thank you for your service to our country.
▶ 1:00:11Sen. Ernst: Your testimony highlighting tsa and federal air marshal resources being diverted to track and harass families of those sworn to protect americans and make air travel safer shows what was wrong with the awful quiet skies program. This program is not the only boondoggle that has existed under tsa and dhs in recent years.
▶ 1:00:32Sen. Ernst: Since 2017 the dhs inspector general has highlighted unresolved recommendations about how contributions to aviation security are questionable so questionable that as much as $394 million is being perpetually misuse. Can you share suggestions for tsa safety changes you and your colleagues might have?
▶ 1:01:08Mr. Crowder: You say we have not shown to stop anything. Back in the 1980's as air marshal's there was a significant number of them trying to stop hijackings. The number dwindles down to proximally 93 before 9/11. Had the agency stayed the course, maybe that would have been prevented. It is not how many air marshals on how many flights but the terrorists not knowing which flight.
▶ 1:01:39Mr. Crowder: I do not want to downplay our role in security of the nation but as I testified a lot of things were abused with quiet skies. January 6 and things of that nature need to be addressed.
▶ 1:01:54Sen. Ernst: What you're saying basically is follow the guidelines, as the federal government had laid out for air marshal's and not get into the business of intelligence, following, surveilling. Can that be a take away?
▶ 1:02:16Mr. Crowder: Yes, the abuse for political reasons these to be stopped.
▶ 1:02:23Sen. Ernst: Thank you. Where are the tsa and dhs employees working on the quiet skies program now? Have they move into other programs? Does the agency still employ them?
▶ 1:02:43Mr. Leavitt: Quiet skies is one of several programs that fed into coverage. They still have other reasons, other criteria for which they are putting people on this and other things so we do not have reason to believe any staff have been laid off or anything because the quiet skies program was finished.
▶ 1:03:06Sen. Ernst: I want to thank our witnesses for being here today. I want to take the remaining time I have left to once again thank sec. Gnome. Over the weekend, while I was at home, I ran into a U.S. marshal that had been part of the apprehension of an illegal migrant that had killed a young council bluffs woman nine years ago.
▶ 1:03:34Sen. Ernst: He had fled to honduras, back to his home country, and through dhs and sec. Marco rubio, through those departments, they were able to extradite that man from honduras and he is here seeing justice finally after nine years, so I want to thank the administration for doing that. When I ran into this U.S. marshal over the weekend, he said rarely do we ever see justice.
▶ 1:04:03Sen. Ernst: In this case, we are seeing justice because of the administration and their follow-through, so thank you for allowing me that, Mr. chair.
▶ 1:04:11Chair Paul: Senator peters.
▶ 1:04:14Sen. Peters: One of the issues I have heard again and again from people in the community and others is how broken the redress process is for people who believe they are unjustly caught up in the watch listing system.
▶ 1:04:37Sen. Peters: I understand your wife was put on the terrorist watchlist program so the redress process is important. We still have that program in place and need to have reforms, which is part of the work I was doing the legislation I had. We did pass on the committee to deal with redress, but given experience working with individuals who believe they are on the terrorist watchlist, what recommendations specifically do you have?
▶ 1:05:02Sen. Peters: What should we be doing now so does not happen in the future to folks you hear from and I hear from?
▶ 1:05:14Mr. Ayoub: The redress process is flawed. Does not always work. It does not give you a final decision you fill out information online and gay letter back saying some vague language -- and get a letter back saying some vague language like we can neither confirm nor deny that you are on a list. Need to find ways to expand due process and the option of being removed from the list and look at what existing programs are there.
▶ 1:05:48Mr. Ayoub: If somebody is on the list, set up a way for them to reach out and be removed. My colleague at the end is a U.S. air marshal who has more access to being removed and it still took him a couple years to be removed so imagine a regular individual going through the same thing.
▶ 1:06:07Mr. Ayoub: When we can identify one piece of information or one agent that place that piece of information there and have a conversation with them and interview the client and wants that person -- piece of information is removed the issue is gone. It will be impossible to do that.
▶ 1:06:24Mr. Ayoub: There are not enough agents and resources to go around so finding a streamlined due process should be first and foremost and also possibly going through the list to at least purge the names of folks that have died or children that are for five years old. Remove those names so it is working with a clearer set of data to begin with.
▶ 1:06:52Sen. Peters: I have heard a lot from community members about the negative experience of the screening system. Like today's testimony, these running total accounts and we could come up with a lot of anecdotal accounts. One of the recommendations is requiring more complete data on all their screening processes. We are talking about one that is gone away. We still have more these things out there that need to be addressed.
▶ 1:07:24Sen. Peters: My question for you is do you think having better data to understand whether these processes are effective and whether there is bias, political, whatever it may be -- what is your assessment?
▶ 1:07:39Mr. Ayoub: We should be able to look at the list and determine why this person was added. Then you will find out do we have this many individuals added because they are trump supporters or because they are democratic party supporters? We need to know what trends and determine what mistakes are being made because, depending on what administration is in office, who is going to be targeted?
▶ 1:08:11Mr. Ayoub: For the past three decades or so, we are targeted by all administrations so we can tell you the experience but the reality is there is bias. There are folks on the list that need to be removed. Expanding the way to do that and having those data points will also help develop policies and strategies moving forward to enhance and make the security process and screening process better.
▶ 1:08:39Sen. Peters: This can happen in all administrations. We have to make sure there is full transparency and oversight regardless of who is in office and most of the oversight in the systems currently is handled by internal dhs offices, privacy and civil liberties oversight board as well as inspector general's who oversee this. This administration has gutted oversights we do not have oversight anymore.
▶ 1:09:10Sen. Peters: Can you describe the consequences of eliminating internal oversight with regard to screening and watch listing so all the issues being raised by everybody here today -- we have to make sure we are guarding against that?
▶ 1:09:22Mr. Ayoub: Oversight is important the issue was bad at dhs and you can imagine it will be less -- worse with no oversight. Having some sort of mechanism is important.
▶ 1:09:37Sen. Moreno: As I mentioned yesterday, I appreciate this hearing. It is important. If the american people read everything provided for this hearing their minds would be blown. Some of the stuff in here is a serious information and we should think about it because I'm nothing -- never read something more outrageous than that memo. It is pretty crazy.
▶ 1:10:04Sen. Moreno: You mentioned to my colleague from michigan that the oversight is essential. How did it work in the last four years of the biden administration?
▶ 1:10:11Mr. Ayoub: It did not really work out.
▶ 1:10:13Sen. Moreno: So it is not a question of oversight. It is a question of intent. I think americans would be appalled to learn their government was spying on them -- paying people like Mr.
▶ 1:10:27Sen. Moreno: Crowder, who did not take the job to go walk around airports monitoring bathroom habits and coffee habits of american citizens cannot get your government was paying you to do that, to spy on american citizens, violating the fourth amendment, shredding the fourth amendment. One of the things I had to do to become a U.S. citizen was learn a lot of american history.
▶ 1:10:54Sen. Moreno: My mom convinced me the citizenship test would be impossible so I memorized it and everybody talks about what joe biden says is the thing. Life, liberty -- he could not even repeat it, so he called it the thing. There is a line that says government is deriving its just powers from the consent of the governed. Deriving just powers from the consent of the governed.
▶ 1:11:18Sen. Moreno: Do you think over the last four years of the biden administration that they'd derived their just powers from the consent of the government question -- of the governed? Do you think the americans knew they had someone stocking them at airports and coffee shops and watching who they were talking to on airplanes?
▶ 1:11:38Mr. Taibbi: No, I do not think so. As a reporter, it has been frustrating investigating not just programs like quiet skies but also issues like censorship. It seems like there are only three ways you can get important information. One is through whistleblowers like the ones represented by Mr. leavitt.
▶ 1:12:08Mr. Taibbi: Another is investigations like by this committee. The third is if an eccentric billionaire decides to hand over the terrible to a reporter. It has become almost impossible to get information about these abuses and I think what I was trying to get at with my opening statement is that particularly in the last four years the government has taken the position that the citizenry are all basically suspect until proven innocent and it should be the other way around.
▶ 1:12:37Sen. Moreno: That is the foundational principles of this country. That is not up for debate. There is no law that we need to pass. That is in our constitution and bill of rights. Can you point out your wife for me? Has anybody from the U.S. government apologized to your wife? Nobody in the government has bothered to pick up the phone, send a letter, saying we are very sorry?
▶ 1:13:07Sen. Moreno: Let me say that to you on behalf of the united states government. Apologized for what happened to you. It should never happen to any american citizen. It is a complete disgrace that the previous administration weaponized this. You mentioned this as a result of 9/11. How many american citizens were involved in the plotting of 9/11?
▶ 1:13:26Mr. Crowder: Zero, to my knowledge.
▶ 1:13:29Sen. Moreno: So what problem are we trying to solve? If the auspices of this where we can never let another 9/11 happened, why are we having americans surveyed on airplanes? During the covid era -- let's not forget how insane that was. You could get on an air play with a mask on. We saw people dragged off airplanes because they were not wearing a mask.
▶ 1:13:59Sen. Moreno: Humiliated by the police. Dragged off for the offense of not having a mask on but when they serve you you could take her mask off to eat because it was the most polite virus ever in the history of humanity appear they said you are eating so I'm not going to infect anybody now but when you are done I will go back to the infectious part of those was who had some level of this is just stupid said we are not going to wear a mask and that put you on a no-fly list. That got you banned from flying? Can you explain that?
▶ 1:14:28Mr. Taibbi: Is worse than that in my understanding is just for supporting a group that protested the wearing of masks on airplanes you could be placed on a no-fly list or a watchlist by the tsa.
▶ 1:14:45Mr. Taibbi: That is in addition to the jccic's -- j and not even going to the capital.
▶ 1:15:01Sen. Moreno: He has a choice to extend right voting yes for this continuing resolution but it is so important to him to hijack republicans that even he is willing to say this is not actually that important. I find it decently ironic that when they had control of the house, senate and white house that the report he issued, he could have put that on the floor. I am not wrong, right?
▶ 1:15:30Sen. Moreno: >> this is in response to my wind put first amendment protections. Since it was the agency, and this is not for the whole agency but for some other powers. As a guess, we can let it go through but let's add first amendment protections because there another experiment. Some to the fbi that Mr. ti some to the fbi that Mr.
▶ 1:15:58Sen. Moreno: T aibbi. They were sitting in meetings and if we are going to reauthorize this particular 30, let's reauthorize it with an amendment that simply says government officials are not allowed to meet with them to take down constitutionally protected speech.
▶ 1:16:19Sen. Moreno: If it is illegal, they can meet with them and warn them something illegal is happening on social media but things that are not illegal and protected by speech, why not put in must pass piece of legislation. That is the only way we are going to get it to the other side. It is fake outrage. They are outraged at this particular authority expiring but they have every chance to vote to reauthorize it and it will be part of the continuing resolution to reauthorize this particular facility.
▶ 1:16:50Sen. Moreno: Last year when you weren't chairman, the ranking member could have put that built on the floor and chose not to. Is that correct?
▶ 1:16:58Chair Paul: Yes.
▶ 1:17:01Sen. Lankford: Thanks for the work you are doing to protect the civil liberties of all americans and for your service to the country. We are grateful as a nation to be able to have folks who are engaged in these ideas. All of us who flew on a plane during the time of covid remember full well the experience of the mask on, mask off.
▶ 1:17:25Sen. Lankford: I will never forget a particular flight I was on that literally a flight attendant patrolled up and down the aisle the entire time like a prison guard watching for anyone that lowered their mask at any point for that got on to children who work with a pacifier or with someone who was a crying baby and for someone to cover it up. It was bizarre to think about that.
▶ 1:17:51Sen. Lankford: To think about our own government at the time was also trying to find who disagreed with policy during that time period and say we want to find some way for you just not to fly because you disagree with us becomes an entirely different level. So Mr. crowder, and Mr. levitt you can jump in, how did the tsa make decisions regarding the threat level of individuals on the mask mandate issue? Do they have a ranking for that?
▶ 1:18:21Sen. Lankford: How did they determine what is the level of threat for an individual?
▶ 1:18:29Mr. Leavitt: We don't know and that is the problem. They are not the sort of thing that air marshals flying back and forth in these fights had insight into and clearly not what you have insight into. It begs the question, who is writing it and how are we supposed to trust it has any basis. People just expressed concern about mask and it was outrageous to be put on a watchlist.
▶ 1:18:54Sen. Lankford: Someone who is visiting family in pakistan, someone who is a missionary flying back and forth deemed inappropriate to be able to flight back and forth, was a process to have a human engaged in that decision-making to say, this prison is visiting family members, this person was eight missionary.
▶ 1:19:19Sen. Lankford: Was there a human involved in that was that just a trigger they were in a certain city at a certain place and you were out?
▶ 1:19:31I Can Only -- Mr. Crowder: I can only testify to my wife's experience. I don't know how she got on it.
▶ 1:19:44Mr. Leavitt: They give the impression that a computer is assessing flight bookings and spitting them out but someone made the decision to put tulsi gabbard's photo on there and there was an individual involved and someone and ask him a lot of questions.
▶ 1:20:03Sen. Lankford: Other members of congress have been put on there and we don't know what the reason was and it was just their threats and they have to be put on the list. So tsa and the policies that prohibit active collection of information about people, tsa is a receiver of information, not a collector. This is clearly tsa trying to collect information. Was it tsa in violation of the law?
▶ 1:20:32Sen. Lankford: They are not managing information given to them, they were shifting.
▶ 1:20:38Mr. Leavitt: Tsa has brought authorities. They don't treat this as intelligence. They don't say it is intelligence as though they observed you, they are just deploying assets. Congress has given tsa brought authority and that might need to be looked at.
▶ 1:21:00Sen. Lankford: Do you want to add to that?
▶ 1:21:01Mr. Crowder: The authority --
▶ 1:21:05Mr. Harper: The authorities in that act are very broad. Your intuition is correct that it should be an intelligence agency collection but if they go off and that direction, it is so broad language it can go off in that direction so my recommendation is to bring tsa and other dsh within bounds set tightly.
▶ 1:21:28Sen. Lankford: Unit also mentioned something about the right to travel. Tell me what you mean by that.
▶ 1:21:33Mr. Harper: We intuitively feel we have a right to travel and there are cases in the supreme court that said you can travel. There are cases where a man in san francisco wanted to fly to washington, D.C. to meet with his representative and in this case the ninth circuit court of appeals fund you don't have a right to go on your preferred mode of transportation.
▶ 1:22:00Mr. Harper: He didn't want to go through the security and he was challenged there. He said you can take a train or drive. A clear right to travel, americans believe they have it but the courts haven't afforded it to them, would give them a position when they went to court where they could do discovery and some things could be turned up. We could learn more about the programs. I think courts would balance well paired obviously the court will not throw out a program that is cost effective.
▶ 1:22:29Mr. Harper: They will say it is a right subject to regulations that allow for security but it does not give way to regulations and programs that don't do anything and don't actually produce cost-effective security. I would like to give more consideration. Congress can weigh in on that and say this intuition of americans that is somewhat backed by courts can be made a full right. We think it is in congress and let's have the courts treat it as such.
▶ 1:22:58Chair Paul: When I traveled during the pandemic, we travel several times a week and there were many flight attendants who were very nice and pleasant and sympathetic and just like me, unhappy with the mandates and didn't want to go overboard.
▶ 1:23:15Chair Paul: They would cast meet notes, sometimes secretly and saying they were supportive and didn't want people to know that they were supporting things I was for it but it brought out the inner "karen" and everybody knows this. It exists in a number of people in society that given a little power they like it.
▶ 1:23:38Chair Paul: Just the idea of all of this power, I have power over you and if you say a word to me you can be put on the list. I have a tsa document some here in my collection of documents that says that disobeying a public health order is equivalent to saying I am going to take the plane down.
▶ 1:24:02Chair Paul: You are a threat to the plane and you've now brought threat to the flight attendant and that brought out the inner "caring" in a lot of people and it became very -- "karen" and a lot of people and it became very uncomfortable to fly. I don't like to have the confrontations but you would have sir, you are not eating your peanuts fast enough, you need to put your mask on in between each peanut that was literally happening on flights.
▶ 1:24:31Chair Paul: The ludicrous nature of there being any signs related to that that all of us with our mask on for 20 minutes while we are eating will somehow protect us from having it on for 40 minutes when we have it off 20 minutes. It turns out that none of these things had any science behind them, none whatsoever and most of the masks they were recommending work masks that were ineffective. Cloth masks were for show and ineffective and at the end of the nih was wandering around with washington nationals cloth mask on as if it were of any value.
▶ 1:25:03Chair Paul: I think it is important to know how we got here. So we got rid of quiet skies but I'm not sure that helps Mr. crowder or christine. We are still not sure exactly how they got on the list. My suspicion is if she just shows up on the list, and wondering if somebody who doesn't like you saw her social media that she was in washington on january 6 didn't like your politics and said I will call the tip line and you would have never known about it until everybody started harassing her
▶ 1:25:35Chair Paul: And you to this day do not know how she got on the list, right?
▶ 1:25:38Mr. Crowder: That's correct, sir.
▶ 1:25:41Chair Paul: That is a problem. Let's say I am of a different political persuasion and I may not rear wife but I work with you and I heard you say something about your politics and I am of a different political event, why don't I call on the tip line because I heard you say she was there january 6 she was at the white house and the capitol.
▶ 1:26:06Chair Paul: Not that it is a huge distinction but there is a distinction so maybe just out of spite somebody does it. Don't we have to have a way where somebody doesn't like you and put you on a list. I don't think we are merely done with trying to fix this problem yet.
▶ 1:26:23Chair Paul: There is also this silent where one of them was if you are traveling from greece and you don't have a greek name and you have been to turkey or syria in the last 10 years. What if that trip to syria it was because you were part of the armed services?
▶ 1:26:46Chair Paul: Is or not somebody with a brain actually looking up and saying you were in the armed services and where they are or have a relative there and have a good reason to have gone there. I don't think anyone has taken the time to do it because there are so many people to put on these lists but half the time you don't even know if you have been named. You are fortunate and in a unique position and I thank you for coming forward because you knew it happened and this had to have happened to dozens if not hundreds of other people. With regard to secrecy, Mr.
▶ 1:27:20Chair Paul: Herbert mentioned this. I want to reiterate how much of a problem this is. We can't analyze how they work because they say they are secret and you don't need to know. I've been asking a couple of questions as chairman of this committee. I travel all the time and I get the good and a lot of it is bad. I get stop one or two weeks and I don't think I'm being selected but I get selected by the machine for random pat downs.
▶ 1:27:47Chair Paul: I've been through the magnetometer and if I don't have any metal on me I want to know I've been selected and I go to the pat down and how many weapons and nice are you finding. I want to know how many. I think it is zero. I've already been to the magnet and I don't have a mate -- knife or a gun. What are they finding when I go through?
▶ 1:28:14Chair Paul: You go through the machine and it always finds something that needs to be patted down so I get a pat down but it never finds anything. So it must not be a very good machine if I get patted down every time and there is never anything there. I suspect that machine is actually targeting not me personally with doing a random check to do a pat down by indicating something is there that isn't there. He won't admit they are doing it but I suspect they are doing it. It all goes back to secrecy.
▶ 1:28:41Chair Paul: They don't want to reveal the state secrets even to the people who are supposed to be overseeing the state secrets good to give you an example of how bad it is, it is not just this area peered I've been wanting to read the church committee report from 1976. It will be 50 years next year and will be released to the others but I am not allowed to read it and some of my colleagues have present -- prevented me.
▶ 1:29:06Chair Paul: And the people on that committee with a few exceptions are in favor of more intelligence power and opposed to more scrutiny. They are supposedly a classified annex. I want to read it and I am being prevented from reading it. They have told me I can individually read it and it is a room full of boxes and they won't designate what is what and there is no index but I can read it.
▶ 1:29:27Chair Paul: I can't read the whole stack, I would want historians and the church committee was critical of too much power to the intelligence agencies and now I want to read something and I'm being stymied 50 years later. So secrecy is a problem. The whole idea of accountability, of course we need to find these things out. Most of the programs in government authorize for a purpose are never reviewed.
▶ 1:29:55Chair Paul: We have legislation that says if it doesn't get reauthorized it goes out of existence and so it should disappear. Reauthorization and senator lankford has been active in this , it should be about does it work? We have 82 housing programs and everybody guess this idea they want to help the homeless but we have done it 82 times so why didn't anybody study the other 82 programs before when we authorize a new program?
▶ 1:30:22Chair Paul: With regard to where we go from here, we are not done with this. I am still appalled by the idea of outsourcing this to universities. We pay the universities and they have no scruples whatsoever. So george washington university here in D.C. has a project on extremism.
▶ 1:30:44Chair Paul: Is extremism showing up on january 6 to support president trump question mark we have to be careful about who we are giving the keys to this and I think they did go after those people peered the evidence is those people on the mask list and on the terror watch list for not wanting to wear a mask, I don't think they were removing start mass but they work talking about it online, let's not wear it.
▶ 1:31:13Chair Paul: They're still getting to the bottom of that because we don't have the names on the list. That is all being hidden. I suspect there are hundreds of other people who were put on a list because they were resistant to dictate from someone on a plane or flight attendant saying where your mask higher, you are showing a nostril and you need to hike your messed up higher.
▶ 1:31:35Chair Paul: I think a lot of those people were put down as potential disasters for the plain, dangerous people and not necessarily for masks because they didn't want to list them all as masks. Everyone of these programs has to have recourse and redress. I think that we can't just stop here. We have to look at through our government, more transparency. I am going to throw it back to senator moreno.
▶ 1:32:06Sen. Moreno: Mr. kaine evey -- Mr. taibbi, you've seen authoritarian governments. What would be the american foreign-policy reaction to a country that receives foreign aid, foreign assistance from the U.S. that did this to their own citizens?
▶ 1:32:27Mr. Taibbi: I would hope we would look at negatively on any country that collected, mass collected information on innocent citizens.
▶ 1:32:41Sen. Moreno: Put them on the watchlist, prevented them from traveling, a presumption of guilt. We would probably call them in and say we can't continue this relationship because you are pressing your assistance. Would that be accurate?
▶ 1:32:55Mr. Taibbi: That would certainly be accurate. We have raised questions about surveillance of journalism in other countries.
▶ 1:33:04Sen. Moreno: And it was happening. Literally fi 8 -- fbi agency sitting with private company saying you must remove this person from social media. Some of the stuff we are seeing in the u.k., and I'm very proud of the fact that our vice president is speaking out against what the u.k. Is doing to their own citizens, persecuting them for social media posts. That is pretty outrageous.
▶ 1:33:28Sen. Moreno: This has been happening over the last four years of the biden administration produce should say in the history of the -- in america we have never seen more of a tilt toward authoritarian rule that we did under biden. Firing for people who didn't get vaccinated, you are forcing the injection of an experimental -- I will generously call it a vaccine and if you didn't carry proof of that with you that somehow you are a bad person.
▶ 1:33:58Sen. Moreno: That was a dark four years in the scheme of american democracy. Would you agree?
▶ 1:34:03Mr. Taibbi: I would agree. And there was also a radical shift in attitudes in this country toward whether or not we should have laws against things like hate speech. It used to be a small minority and now it has become the majority of people. You mentioned the u.k..
▶ 1:34:22Mr. Taibbi: I interviewed somebody last week who was arrested for speech over there and to the chairman's point, they have a system that allows people to make complaints that result in criminal arrests of people for social media posts . That could have been our future here. So that is deeply concerning to me.
▶ 1:34:42Sen. Moreno: Do you think in the scheme of things for americans, I think americans would think that their freedom, their liberty, their constitutional rights given to them by our founders is important. Do you think it is really important to american citizens? >> it is.
▶ 1:35:05Sen. Moreno: And do you think it is ironic that democrats, saying president trump is a threat to our democracy are not even here? I think the record should show Mr. chairman who attended this meeting and who did not attend the hearing. You can't go out there and go on camera and say that president trump, the person who ended the quiet skies program, who is reforming what's happened under the biden era, there is nobody being threatened to be fired for not taking a vaccine.
▶ 1:35:36Sen. Moreno: Restoring a individual liberty. Don't bother to show up for a hearing which I think this hearing is the most outrageous thing I have ever seen in washington, D.C. and yet they can't even bother. You decide what is important. When you are a senator, you can decide what is important. I can be in this hearing, at another hearing, fundraiser, golfing and do whatever I want.
▶ 1:36:08Sen. Moreno: You don't have to show up but you do. The fact that the democrats virtually boycotted this hearing gives them zero credibility when they say this president is moving this country toward authoritarian. Do you want to comment on that?
▶ 1:36:25Mr. Harper: Your question, the perspective your question gave that if this were happening in another country, what would be say about it? Very powerful because keir starmer in the u.k. Is saying everybody is going to have a digital id. In the united states, we opposed that peered in the real id act of 2005 continually fails to be implemented and good for us, it should be repealed peered financial surveillance is a product of united states law that we export -- repealed.
▶ 1:36:58Mr. Harper: Financial surveillance is a product of the united states that we export pretty if you put a chinese label on it, you would say if that is china. And that is what we have and that is what we export to the officials. That insight, we shouldn't be doing it here. We should be leading in the united states on civil rights and civil liberties and all of the things we have talked about, transparency, anti-secrecy, no to a national id. The perspective of your question was important.
▶ 1:37:29Sen. Moreno: I have one request from my perspective. It has been almost no accountability to what the government did to the american people during covid, almost no accountability. People closed schools, people who made little kids get vaccinated and masks.
▶ 1:37:49Sen. Moreno: Can you imagine what that impact is going to be long term on two or three or four-year-olds who were forced to be masked several hours a day? No accountability. The american people fired president biden and didn't let kamala harris which which would have been worse. Who within homeland security still has a job that perpetuated these policies.
▶ 1:38:21Sen. Moreno: In my mindset, anybody, especially the person who wrote the memo that literally made my hair stand up, how is that person still employed by the united states government? I think you need to ask that question while we have an administration that actually wants to protect civil liberties and wants to protect the american people. We cannot just ignore this.
▶ 1:38:44Sen. Moreno: And there are a lot of things that have happened that I've seen in my eight months of the seat with this report was so outrageous and the fact that my democrat colleagues have no interest in listening to this says it all. So thank you again, Mr. chairman for holding this and thank you for the witnesses. And misses crowder, I truly apologize for what you went through. It is completely insane, not just to you but anybody who had something like that happen.
▶ 1:39:12Chair Paul: Part of oversight is not been done or revenge but removing people who abused civil liberties of americans. And so far the court has been consistent in upholding the presence right to hire and fire people in the executive branch and I agree with you completely and we need to make sure these programs don't come back again.
▶ 1:39:33Chair Paul: The issue of anonymous whistleblowing. It reminds me of a movie I saw you could anonymously put it in there and you can lose your head from an anonymous tip. One of the evolutions beyond that is due process. You can't be secretly accused of things and there is a real danger to that and I think that is what happen in this case.
▶ 1:40:04Chair Paul: If this is someone who works still as an air marshal, they don't need to work as an air marshal. If it was a colleague to try to get your wife in trouble, somebody did it. I have a feeling it is malicious and I don't have information on that but we want to get to the bottom of that here the people who created and ran these programs, of course we do. Your point is well taken on human rights. We have all kinds of strings that are supposed to be attached to human rights.
▶ 1:40:30Chair Paul: If you're not a democratically elected government. Egypt still lives under military rule after coup. Technically they are not supposed to get foreign aid but we do it anyway. We just exempt them from the amendments. But things we enforce and other countries we should leave it should in force on others. It really isn't always either the color of your skin.
▶ 1:41:00Chair Paul: It could be the shade of your ideology, homeschool or donald trump supporter, all kinds of things that may be outside sums sort of mainstream and to target those people is an anathema to what our country stands for. I appreciate what you have done in this and I appreciate your testimony today.
▶ 1:41:22Chair Paul: I would like to enter into the record a set of redacted documents produced to the committee as part of this investigation and would also like to enter the statements to the record from the air marshal and national council and other stakeholders. Without objection they will be entered into the record.
▶ 1:41:46Sen. Moreno: , do you have any other questions so we have a senator who wants to answer questions.
▶ 1:41:51Sen. Moreno: You are an attorney so I will ask you this question. If congress passed a law called the quiet skies law what would the supreme court say?
▶ 1:42:07Mr. Leavitt: That had the same substance? If we pass a law that says they can surveillance american citizens they suspect without any evidence of maybe committing a crime and we pass that law, will cheer and pass it and super bipartisan and threw a big party and had a ribbon cutting ceremony for the law and photo op, what would the supreme court say?
▶ 1:42:31Mr. Leavitt: We have seen pass laws that aren't that different than that so it is hard. There is a policy balance. It is possible lead supreme court not tailored enough would invalidate it?
▶ 1:42:46Sen. Moreno: Because we had the presumption of innocence. If I decide not to be a mask because the will is stupid, I shouldn't be prevented from not flying again. If I want to go to washington, D.C. and do whatever I want to do well within the bounds of the law, that doesn't give any administrative agency to decide I can't fly somewhere else.
▶ 1:43:08Sen. Moreno: He doesn't give the government the right to have somebody follow me and creeped me out in the bathroom and decide whether I am getting into many sugars in my coffee are going to the wrong yogurt place and that report should not be published in some official government document there is a difference between a somebody who has power because they are given it to them because of some administrative thing or some of the best real power, a badge and eight gone and has the ability to arrest you and take your civil liberties away.
▶ 1:43:37Sen. Moreno: That is what happened over the last four years and america should be equally outraged about all of this and it should not be partisan.
▶ 1:43:43Chair Paul: I would interject and I think it is longer than that. This fear originated after 9/11 and when they passed the patriot act, one of the things said that the government could go to your local library and give it a secret warrant, not a fourth amendment but a fisa warrant and they can get all of the different books that I read when I go to the library and all of those could be confiscated in a list but they went further and said the librarian that you
▶ 1:44:15Chair Paul: Would put the librarian in jail if she reveals to me that the government is looking at my reading list. We did a lot of things out of fear and that fear from 9/11, there was anger, it was justified. There was a war I think in many ways but we let down our guard on constitutional liberties and it is in times of fear you have to be most careful about them. We probably have a million arab-americans in dearborn and probably 10 million arab americans and part of our country and many are citizens.
▶ 1:44:47Chair Paul: We have colombian americans and they all deserve the same protections. As one of the reasons they came here.
▶ 1:44:52Sen. Moreno: But it is ironic that the democrats look the other way when the border was open to 10 million immigrants. I will turn it over to my colleague from missouri. >> thanks for holding for it waiting for me as well. Thank you to the panel for being here. I want to start with you and I apologize if you already went through this.
▶ 1:45:21Sen. Moreno: But how did your wife get added to the database? Why was she flagged in the first place and do you know?
▶ 1:45:28Mr. Crowder: That is still something we don't know. It has been unanswered by many attempts from several people. >> is it your sense that it was a human decision or some kind of an automated thing that based on information they collected about her personal information, the fact that she was in D.C. on january 6 that they tag her and, too bad, she is on a list for years.
▶ 1:45:54Mr. Crowder: Your guess is as good as mine peered she was in the area and whether that prompted someone to put her on a list, we don't have answers. >> that is just unbelievable. It is a sickening violation of her first amendment rights. I want to thank you for your service and think your wife or what she has endured.
▶ 1:46:16Mr. Crowder: She should never have had to go through that and to be honest with you what we saw in the aftermath of january 6, the effort to persecute the president's political opponents, president biden that is, was unremarkable. Tell me more about how the biden administration used the quiet skies program which existed for long before then, but really started using it to target political opponents.
▶ 1:46:44Mr. Crowder: It seems they found in this program a great opportunity to start turning the screws down on people they didn't like, including just ordinary folks like Mr. crowder's wife. She wasn't running for office. But she found herself targeted. Is this the united states of america or not? Talk to us about that.
▶ 1:47:05Mr. Leavitt: We see this from fbi's and whistleblowers. The federal government took a stance that a lot of people with certain political views were threats to the nation. That certainly manifested itself in lots of ways and a lot of it was these different travel lists. People who were there on january 6 or were part of a group or questioned mask used because of their effectiveness were put on a list.
▶ 1:47:32Mr. Leavitt: There still is the unanswered one of tulsi gabbard being put on one after she questioned kamala harris. They said it was ok because she was associated with a person at the vatican. But it clearly says that mick mulvaney went as well and he did not get put on a list. It puts the lie to the fact that this was the justification.
▶ 1:47:58Mr. Leavitt: Whenever you have secrecy, we are talking about civil liberties concerns when you have secrecy there is the additional effect that it will be used in secret ways against people saying we have to be safe and it is targeting and weaponization. >> took him back to Mr. crowder's wife, all these years later we still don't know how she got editor who did it where there is the evasion of accountability. You can't go in and say you are fired and that is an abuse and you are fired.
▶ 1:48:27Mr. Leavitt: It is the classic bureaucratic deep state. We don't know how it happened but it just so happens to everybody who looks like they may have been politically of a different mindset than the last president gets targeted. Who gets the fbi knocking at their door early in the morning? Is it people who are buying voters know, it is not the people who go to school board meetings and ask about masking policies.
▶ 1:48:49Mr. Leavitt: Who gets the swat teams at the door, it happens to be pro-life folks who had the audacity to exercise their first amendment rights by walking on the sidewalk. It is unlike anything we have seen in this country's history. Will you help contextualize this? You have reported on this and we have seen abuse across a range of agencies. It wasn't just quiet skies. It was the fbi, it was the irs, it was agency after agency. It was dhs.
▶ 1:49:21Mr. Leavitt: It was agency after agency. Fill in the blanks for us and help us understand. What we are talking about is sadly just one piece of a massive, seemingly whole of government approach to try and delegitimize anybody who disagreed with the last administration.
▶ 1:49:37Mr. Taibbi: Thank you, senator hawley. Two this point, there are similarities in the statements of the fbi whistleblowers that some of the air marshals we talk to about the story it labels complain for instance fbi agents who sat in bands outside the homes of people who might have been at jccic's, people who were pulled off of details, trying to
▶ 1:50:07Mr. Taibbi: Catch pornographers to do that work who were extremely frustrated to be forced on innocent people. Same thing with federal air marshals who their job is to prevent terrorists from storming cockpit doors on airplanes. That is very important job.
▶ 1:50:25Mr. Taibbi: They're putting commercials in the backs of airplanes with a can't do any good at all and having them listen to conversations of former congressman from hawaii and checking how many times they go to the bathroom. It is a total misallocation of resources and politicized information gathering. Again, I think it is a betrayal about the people in these services and the american citizens.
▶ 1:50:49Sen. Hawley: Very well said. I appreciate you holding the hearing, Mr. chairman, because we have to expose this so it never happens again. The nearest I can think of in this country as we briefly in 1798 toyed with trying to outline political -- peer that was rejected by the american people in the election of 1800.
▶ 1:51:17Sen. Hawley: What we haven't seen in the past four years is unlike anything since that period and much worse because the federal government is much more powerful than it was in 1798. The ability to prevent travel, monitor conversations. I can think off of the top of my head coming in the federal government telling the big tech companies they have to take down and since her normal americans who comment on covid who comment on masts, who comment on crt in the classroom.
▶ 1:51:46Sen. Hawley: The fbi designating peer to go to school board meetings as terrorists. The fbi targeting pro-lifers and recruiting spies into catholic parishes. The quiet skies program. That is just off the top of my head. It is unbelievable. We talk about never forget, we have to never forget this and make sure it never happens again. Thank you, chairman.
▶ 1:52:08Chair Paul: And the investigation is not over. We are announcing we will be investigating projects on extremism at george washington university. We want to know whether or not they were doing research on people not wearing masks or against wearing masks or research on people who attended january six are whether christine carter came from george washington information that was sent over whether it came from someone specifically making up something about her.
▶ 1:52:37Chair Paul: We are going to get to the bottom of it and keep asking questions and find out who did this and to cause such a great disruption to your life for several years. You are the one we know about and we are going to get to the bottom of this. This is the tip of the iceberg. We hope that anyone who is interested in this will continue to give us information and that more people will step forward for those of you who are interested in reform will work with us to find legislative solutions to make sure this never happens again.
▶ 1:53:07Chair Paul: With that, I would like to thank our witnesses for joining us to share their testimony and expertise for the committee. The record for this hearing will remain open until 5:00 p.m. Friday, october 3, 2025 for the submission of statements and questions for the records. The meeting is now adjourned. Thank you.