▶ 1:06:01Chair Sullivan: Good afternoon. This hearing will come to order. I welcome you to consider the nomination of Mr. peter metzger to be the assistant secretary for intelligence and analysis at the department of treasury and Mr. josh simmons to be the general counsel for the central intelligence agency. I liked up remind all of those in attendance that we will not allow disruptions by the audience.
▶ 1:06:29Chair Sullivan: Audience members may not verbally or physically distract from the hearing including by shouting, standing, raising signs or making gestures that block the view of other members of the audience. We came here to hear from Mr. metzger and Mr. simmons, not from you. If I have to have anyone removed, I will take further action to have you barred from future proceedings, coming within a country mile of committee rooms and spaces of the capital and a bar you from the capital.
▶ 1:06:57Chair Sullivan: Our goal is to conduct this hearing and enable the committee to consider the nominees' qualifications -- have him removed immediately. We will stop nothing. You will stop your disruption and you will not be seen by this committee again. >> you will stop the genocide in gaza!
▶ 1:07:23Chair Cotton: The only genocide is the one hamas perpetrated against the jewish people. Is there anyone else who would like to get it off of their chest now to save us time? Each nominee here has provided written responses to dozens of questions presented by the committee. Today, members will be able to ask additional questions and hear from the nominees.
▶ 1:07:49Chair Cotton: Let me first begin by thanking both of the nominees for their willingness to answer the call to public service. I would also like to recognize and thank their families and loved ones, many of whom are sitting right behind them, offering encouragement and support. Throughout their careers both nominees before the committee have given their time and talents to our nation. Many of those on this committee have had the pleasure to work with Mr. metzger, who currently serves as a professional staff member on the senate select committee on intelligence.
▶ 1:08:20Chair Cotton: Mr. metzger has spent his time with this committee covering issue areas including the cia, fbi covert action, counterintelligence, the middle east and africa. Mr. metzger, as assistant secretary for intelligence and analysis at the department of treasury, you will be expected to support the U.S. government with timely intelligence on financial matters and implementation of economic statecraft tools.
▶ 1:08:46Chair Cotton: This is a critical position, especially as communist china wages and economic and technological war to dominate emerging technologies and works to displace the united states as the predominant economic and military power in the world. Next we have Mr. simmons, who is currently the principal deputy legal advisor at the U.S. department of state. During his time at the state department, Mr.
▶ 1:09:08Chair Cotton: Simmons has worked on foreign-policy policy and national security matters including intelligence sharing, covert action and the law of armed conflict. Mr. simmons spent time in preet -- private law practice where he handled arbitration disputes pertaining to national security. Mr. simmons, as cia general counsel, you will be tasked with providing legal guidance and support of ongoing worldwide intelligence operations.
▶ 1:09:35Chair Cotton: The work of the general counsel's office touches every aspect, including the procurement of resources, personnel matters, lawful intelligence collection and covert action. This committee is committed to ensuring our intelligence agencies and officers returned to the core mission of collecting clandestine foreign intelligence.
▶ 1:09:58Chair Cotton: After years of misplaced priorities, bureaucratic bloat and political judgment, it is time to write the ship. With this in mind I look forward to hearing from our nominees, how they plan to approach the respective roles. Thank you both for being here and answering the call to public service. I know recognize our distinguished vice chairman for opening remarks.
▶ 1:10:25Ranking Member Warner: Thank you Mr. chairman and let me congratulate the witnesses on your nominations. And while you're roles may not attract the same public attention as the c8 -- as the cia director, you are no less vital to our national security. You play a key role in ensuring that our intelligence agencies operate both lawfully and effectively.
▶ 1:10:50Ranking Member Warner: This committee does not do a lot of things with public hearings and I want to share some of my concerns as we go into these unprecedented times. It feels like new precedents are being set every day. Recently the secretary of defense pulled hundreds of military officers from their duties to urge them to ignore stupid rules of engagement.
▶ 1:11:17Ranking Member Warner: Even as europe is engaged in a land war with russia and china threatens taiwan. The president went further, encouraging the use of american cities as training grounds for the military. While deploying armed soldiers to occupy cities and arrest american citizens. Deployments that courts including judges he appointed have ruled illegal.
▶ 1:11:44Ranking Member Warner: I want to credit those officers in quantico responding with professionalism we expect from our men and women in uniform. The sheer lack of respect shown by president trump and secretary hegseth for our military and for the rule of law should concern all of us. But this is not just a matter of respect. I believe the president and his administration are continuing to take actions that make america less safe.
▶ 1:12:13Ranking Member Warner: Early in his term, the president boasted about the capture of the isis terrorist responsible for a bombing that killed 13 american service members. He did not highlight how he actually fired the head of the fbi counterterrorism division, responsible for that very investigation. That was not an isolated decision.
▶ 1:12:38Ranking Member Warner: He also fired the head of the fbi branch that takes down criminal organizations and drug traffickers, as well as leaders of the bureaus of intelligence and cyber divisions. Even our adversaries are working around the clock to spy on america and penetrate our critical infrastructure through ventures like salt-. He has dismissed the heads of major field offices from washington and miami, one of the biggest drug enforcement ops in our country.
▶ 1:13:09Ranking Member Warner: Together with the fbi director, he has forced out thousands of experienced agents for reasons that appear more political than financial. Including from fbi agents that refused to lie about the 2020 election. Frankly for reasons that appear more petty, like being friends with public figures. According to court filings, even director patel has recently acknowledged that these actions may be illegal.
▶ 1:13:42Ranking Member Warner: He said his position depended on removing those agents. This is what is the shocking news. I ask all of my colleagues to listen. In recent months, nearly a quarter of the fbi agents who handle counterterrorism, cyber, espionage and other criminal cases have been assigned to immigration cases. In some field offices, that number goes up to 45%.
▶ 1:14:13Ranking Member Warner: Firing or transferring agents who investigate terrorists, drug traffickers and sexual predators and pulling back cyber expertise targeting chinese and russian hackers does not make america safe. Sadly, I feel like this is only a fraction of the damage done to our national security in the last nine months.
▶ 1:14:38Ranking Member Warner: Across the intelligence community and defense department , career experts with decades of service, are being pushed out not from poor fruit -- poor performance but for refusing to c1 the infrastructure that the first trump administration set out in 2018 really insured safe and secure elections.
▶ 1:15:14Ranking Member Warner: They went after threats. All of that operation has been dismantled. Just this week it was reported in the wall street journal that the dhs disbanded a federal team that once pursued child traffickers. I do not understand how that is making america safe.
▶ 1:15:41Ranking Member Warner: You may wonder what this has to do with you and the jobs that you are being nominated for. And you both bring significant experience to these nominations. Mr. simmons is a former law professor. Mr. metzger was a former senior staffer on this committee. You have both served in roles where speaking truth to power and upholding the law were the core responsibilities.
▶ 1:16:19Ranking Member Warner: Even when doing so is politically inconvenient. This is not about partisan politics. It is about providing unvarnished assessments of the challenges that we face. You know better than most that our adversaries are not letting up.
▶ 1:16:47Ranking Member Warner: They are becoming more creative and more coordinated in their efforts to weaken our country. I worry that the holes the administration is creating in our national security apparatus leaves america dangerously -- the american people expect nothing less than your absolute devotion to the truth.
▶ 1:17:13Ranking Member Warner: I look forward to hearing how to uphold that solemn responsibility. I yield back.
▶ 1:17:20Sen. Cotton: I would like now to introduce senator rounds for a few words and support. >> we will suspense with the hazing. I have the unique privilege of saying a few words about my former designated staff member on the committee.
▶ 1:17:45Sen. Cotton: He managed to some of our nation's most sensitive and complex intelligence matters with extraordinary expertise and attention. The covered counterintelligence, the middle east, and other specialized portfolios. He had an impressive knowledge.
▶ 1:18:12Sen. Cotton: He monitored key intelligence output -- outposts around the globe. And bolstered the intelligence community and made our country safer. I had the privilege of getting to know him during his time.
▶ 1:18:31Sen. Cotton: She was a great support and resource to me in carrying out my responsibilities as a member of the senate intelligence committee and I want to express my gratitude for that. It is no wonder that president trump had the confidence in him to nominate him for this position. This is the next step in a life's work in service to our nation.
▶ 1:18:59Sen. Cotton: First as an attorney and then as a marine corps officer in and most recently as a policy advisor in the highest levels of the government. I highlight his time on the national security staff is the assistant to the president where robert o'brien said peter's expertise proved vital to the president. I certainly expect this to hold true in his next role.
▶ 1:19:26Sen. Cotton: I have no doubt that it confirmed he will serve his country admirably in this post and we will look forward to seeing you back here often. I would also like to note that it has been an exciting time in the metzger family lately. They welcomed a son into the family in august and not two weeks later the president nominated him for this position. I know one of those things as a whole lot more important than the other.
▶ 1:19:55Sen. Cotton: But nonetheless I think it is a great testimony to your growing families devotion to service. Congratulations. We want to thank you for your support during this nomination process, knowing that this is indeed a family endeavor. The position to which Mr. metzger is nominated is responsible for the analysis and dissemination of financial intelligence across the government.
▶ 1:20:22Sen. Cotton: Through his legal background in service in uniform and in the intelligence community, I believe we are hard-pressed to find anyone more suited to the task. If confirmed, members of this committee should find great comfort in having a public servant of this caliber in this role. In closing, I want to offer my strongest endorsement to Mr. metzger to serve as assistant secretary of the treasury.
▶ 1:20:54Sen. Cotton: His wealth of national security expertise at his unimpeachable character give me the utmost confidence that if confirmed, he will bring great credit to the department and the executive branch. Thank you for this opportunity, Mr. chairman.
▶ 1:21:07Sen. Cotton: Thank you. I am shocked and disappointed that the one month old metzger boy is not here with us. Years from now when you reflect on it you will assure him that he did not miss anything. Before we move on to your opening statements, we have five customary questions we ask of all witnesses who are here before the committee. If we could just get a simple yes or no answer for the record. The correct answer is yes.
▶ 1:21:37Sen. Cotton: A no will require an extended explanation. You agree to hear -- appear before the committee here when invited? >> yes.
▶ 1:21:46Sen. Cotton: Do you agree to send officials to appear before your committee when invited? >> yes.
▶ 1:21:54Sen. Cotton: Do you agree to provide documents or any other materials requested by the committee in order for the carrying out of its oversight and legislative responsibilities? >> yes.
▶ 1:22:05Sen. Cotton: Do you ensure that your office and staff provide such material? >> yes.
▶ 1:22:12Sen. Cotton: Do you agree to inform all members of this committee of intelligence activities and covert actions rather than only the vice chairman and chairman? >> yes.
▶ 1:22:26Sen. Cotton: Thank you both very much. It is my intention to move quickly to convene the business meeting to confirm the nominations. We will now proceed to our nominees opening statements after which I will recognize members by seniority at the gavel for five minutes each. Mr. metzger, we will start with you and then go to Mr. simmons.
▶ 1:22:51Mr. Metzger: Thank you, Mr. chairman. Members of this committee, it is a tremendous honor to appear before you today as you consider my nomination to serve as assistant secretary of the treasury for intelligence and analysis. I would like to thank my lord and savior jesus christ for all of the blessings in this life, including this today.
▶ 1:23:19Mr. Metzger: My wife who is here today and my newborn son for their endless love and support. President trump for this opportunity to again serve our country. And secretary bessent for his confidence in me. I would like to thank my mother and father, mentors, former colleagues, and close friends present here and watching from afar who have helped shape my career and professional development in the practice of law in the U.S.
▶ 1:23:45Mr. Metzger: Marine corps and in the intelligence community and in multiple executive branch national security roles and certainly here on the staff of this committee. Service to our country runs in our family. I am the fourth U.S. marine officer in the family and the second to serve in the intelligence community. It has been a high honor to not only continue this tradition but deeply gratifying to have spent nearly two decades looking out for our country's national security.
▶ 1:24:16Mr. Metzger: My wife is similarly dedicated in her own career of public service. I am immeasurably proud of the sacrifices she has made on behalf of our country. She inspires me daily with her devotion to our family into to her own professional duties. Or I to be confirmed it would be a unique privilege to lead one of the 18 components of the U.S. intelligence committee. Understanding the hard and often anonymous nature of intelligence work.
▶ 1:24:43Mr. Metzger: It would be an honor to call the men and women of the intelligence community colleagues. My career to date has afforded me incredible service opportunities, often giving me unfettered access to the collection and utilization of intelligence that informs national security policy decisions. During president trump's first term I have the opportunity to serve in the office of defense. And later on the staff of the national security council of the white house.
▶ 1:25:15Mr. Metzger: I led the president's policies on the low bond -- levant and helped lead the development of middle east and north africa policy. Since 2021i have had the privilege to serve on the professional staff of this committee. Where my oversight responsibilities have included covert action, the middle east, the fbi, counterintelligence, and other special programs.
▶ 1:25:45Mr. Metzger: Treasury's critical role in these markets is formidable. Yet still might experience having executed dozens of tailored sanctions designated by the white house on multiple different authorities including executive orders and congressionally drafted legislation gives me the opportunity to witness the power of the uterus fund -- U.S. financial system.
▶ 1:26:12Mr. Metzger: It is one of the greatest tools of the national security apparatus. The intelligence collection and analysis is critical for this instrument of national power. And to the president's ability to yield as much. I would bring my experience while leveraging an exemplary team. Likewise, if confirmed, I would prioritize the effective organization of the team.
▶ 1:26:42Mr. Metzger: Ensure a analysis of narco terrorists and other terror organizations. Partner with colleagues to enhance collection on illicit financial activities including iran, china, russia, and north korea. Finally, I would assess the counterintelligence posture of personnel and infrastructure to enhance defenses against new and emerging threats.
▶ 1:27:07Mr. Metzger: I pledge my continued commitment to robust congressional intelligence oversight and cooperation they are with. I thank you for your time today and I look forward to your questions.
▶ 1:27:16Sen. Cotton: Thank you. Mr. simmons.
▶ 1:27:20Mr. Simmons: Thank you to the distinguished member of the committee for the opportunity to appear before you today as the nominee to be general counsel of the central intelligence agency. I am grateful to president trump and the director and deputy director for their confidence in me. I appreciate the opportunity I've had to meet with several of you before this hearing to discuss a number of important issues.
▶ 1:27:47Mr. Simmons: I want to thank my colleagues at the state department, secretary rubio, and the other leaders that state has been advancing important U.S. interest in foreign policy and national security. It has been an honor and a pleasure to work with them. I understand that if confirmed I would not be the first attorney to have served in the office of the legal advisor at the state department and then as general counsel of the cia. I think there are good reasons for this.
▶ 1:28:15Mr. Simmons: The offices have similar sizes, similarly talented lawyers, and similar missions advising on national security matters. They also confront legal issues of great complexity and urgency. These issues require judgment and wisdom that cannot be learned from a textbook. I am grateful to my colleagues for sharing years of on the ground experience.
▶ 1:28:42Mr. Simmons: If confirmed as general counsel, I would use this experience to help the cia navigate the many challenges our country faces. The director has spoken to you about these challenges. They include the chinese communist party, transnational drug trafficking cartels, and the russia-ukraine war. At the same time, we are seeing rapidly emerging technologies from artificial intelligence to quantum computing that can define the future of our national security.
▶ 1:29:12Mr. Simmons: The general counsel of the cia is responsible for supporting the cia's mission and facing these challenges, with fidelity to the constitution and the rule of law. This means protecting not only american national security but also american civil. If confirmed, I would seek to advance these interests in three primary ways. First I would provide objective, clear, and timely legal advice to enable the cia's mission.
▶ 1:29:42Mr. Simmons: The cia operates under statutory authority and not the president's direction. I would leave the office of general counsel to ensure that the cia operates in accordance to the law. I would work closely with lawyers across the executive branch to strong values and I would build on relationships with attorneys at the national security council, the department of justice, and other agencies to ensure that policymakers receive the best legal advice and support of our national security.
▶ 1:30:14Mr. Simmons: I would leave the office of general counsel to work closely with this committee to enable your oversight work and provide appropriate transparency. As president eisenhower's said when laying the cornerstone at cia headquarters, success cannot be advertised. Failure cannot be explained. That remains true today. The cia's activities are generally outside of public view.
▶ 1:30:42Mr. Simmons: It is a testament to the patriotic service of intelligence officers and also to the importance of this committee's oversight. At that same cornerstone ceremony it was announced that the words from the gospel of john would be inscribed at the entrance of the cia headquarters. Those words, as anyone who visits the cia knows, are you shall know the truth and the truth shall make you free.
▶ 1:31:09Mr. Simmons: If confirmed, I would support that mission to protect and promote freedom. Finally I want to thank my family, including my parents who are here. I come from a long line of americans from farmers to coal miners who have loved our country and works faithfully to raise families and serve their communities. Sitting here today I am honored with the opportunity to help protect our country and those communities. I also thank my wife of over 18 years.
▶ 1:31:39Mr. Simmons: We met in law school and she has had a distinguished career as a government lawyer. I would not be here without her steadfast support and wisdom. As the proverb says, she is far more precious than jewels. Our children are also here today in hopes that they will be inspired by seeing our great american republic at work. Thank you again and I look forward to answering any questions.
▶ 1:32:02Sen. Cotton: Thank you, gentleman. I have been on this committee for almost 11 years now. We have had a number of general counsel nominees come in front of it and the questions often turn into very great, somber concerns that the nominee will have the courage to stand up and say no when his bosses want to violate the law. I think this approach is long -- wrongheaded on a couple of accounts.
▶ 1:32:31Sen. Cotton: It goes without saying that any lawyer should tell their clients if they are prepared to take an action that is against the law. In my experience in 11 years, the much more likely scenario that the office of general counsel faces pressure is to distort their legal judgment to provide a shield to decision-makers who do not want to make tough decisions.
▶ 1:32:55Sen. Cotton: So rather than having a high ranking director of operations or even the cia director come to you and press you to bless something that would be illegal, more likely to get your office to say you know something is out of bounds when in fact it is in bounds and that is just the decision that those decision-makers care not to make. You said in your opening statement, Mr. simmons, that you would give clear advice and counsel in a decision-maker when something is against the law.
▶ 1:33:24Sen. Cotton: I assume the opposite is true as well. If you are pressed to say something when in reality it is perfectly legal, will you give that clear opinion that in your legal judgment the action is legal and it is something the decision-maker will have to side -- decide for himself?
▶ 1:33:41Mr. Simmons: Thank you, chairman. I think the director said it well when he was here that he would follow the law as far as it goes and no further. One of the key distinctions here is between law and policy. I think if confirmed as general counsel my observation would be to provide legal advice. What are the legal authorizations and limits? That equips policymakers to make those decisions.
▶ 1:34:09Sen. Cotton: And those are decisions that they make as the policymakers that the general counsel does not make as the legal advisor?
▶ 1:34:17Mr. Simmons: That is correct.
▶ 1:34:19Sen. Cotton: The second count is the premise of the question is usually there are rogue, nefarious actors throughout the agency, maybe including the director and president himself that are always trying to break the law in some dastardly way. In reality clients go to their lawyers in everyday america thinking about doing something that turns out to be a violation of the law.
▶ 1:34:44Sen. Cotton: An arkansas farmer could want to build a fence on what he thinks this is properly line -- property line and they say it is the county right-of-way. Or an executive myco on cnbc and say a bunch of stuff about the stock of his company and the general counsel has to say that would be a violation of the securities law. Or a union chief in the negotiations might be prepared to take certain actions and the general counsel has to say that action would violate federal labor law.
▶ 1:35:17Sen. Cotton: Yes maybe even a chief of station or director or the president himself might think we want to do this or can we take this action and the general counsel says that would not be in accordance with the law? When there is no nefarious purpose. You are advising clients who by and large are not lawyers. That is why our country has lawyers, to advise lehman about what the law says.
▶ 1:35:44Sen. Cotton: In each of those cases you would expect your lawyer to understand your objectives and try to work toward a solution. But it is consistent with law. Whether you view the arkansas farmer or the union boss or even the cia director. Mr.
▶ 1:36:07Sen. Cotton: Simmons, can we count on you when you are giving your plane and unvarnished advice about what is and is not on the right side of the law to also work with all of your clients at the agency and across the executive branch to help them to get to yes, to achieve their objectives in a manner that is consistent with the law?
▶ 1:36:25Mr. Simmons: Thank you. Yes. Throughout my legal career I have maintained that kind of open dialogue. I think it is important to have a relationship of trust with the client so they can speak freely about what their objectives are and they can receive honest and clear counsel about what the law requires. If confirmed, that would be my approach.
▶ 1:36:47Sen. Cotton: Thank you. >> I will ask you on this subject, because quite honestly just recently we went through an extensive process to denominate U.S. attorneys for the commonwealth of virginia. They had all the appropriate political bona fides. We agree with the chairman. You have to work within the law.
▶ 1:37:19Sen. Cotton: We did ask both of them would you adhere to the law and not do something you feel is illegal or inappropriate? I think we ended up taking the right guys because they have both been fired because they were asked to do things that they felt was counter to the law. In that spirit and with the same hope that you will have the approach of honoring the law first and foremost.
▶ 1:37:47Sen. Cotton: The president recently told a gathering of U.S. military leaders they should use american cities as training grounds for our military. And that america is under invasion from within, no different than a foreign enemy. Mr. simmons, you have been a law professor, you know the law, do you agree with the president that america is under invasion from within no different than a foreign enemy?
▶ 1:38:16Mr. Simmons: Thank you for your question. I think to your point about expectations, I have spoken with the director and his expectation for me is to provide clear and honest legal advice and to comply with the law based on that advice. Throughout my career, and if confirmed in this position, my approach would be to provide that honesty.
▶ 1:38:42Sen. Warner: Does that mean if the president states that regardless of what factual basis might be underlying the statement, that is then within the law?
▶ 1:38:55Mr. Simmons: On that particular issue I have not reviewed the legal authorities around that issue. At the cia I know that section 1048 says the cia will not have law enforcement powers.
▶ 1:39:13Sen. Warner: Is in the effort, I won't quiz you more on taking folks off of counterterrorism to put them on immigration. But if the president says there is this enemy from within and he wants the cia to join in with the american military in fighting this enemy from within, what counsel would you give?
▶ 1:39:37Mr. Simmons: Thank you for your question. The mission of the cia is to collect foreign intelligence and there are a number of limitations enshrined in the law with respect to domestic activity.
▶ 1:39:51Sen. Warner: So you would advise the director that this would be illegal and wrong if the cia was asked to help you work with the military in enforcing against the enemy from within? A simple yes or no would be fine. I will take that as a yes.
▶ 1:40:12Sen. Warner: You obviously, do you see any decline in threats from china, russia, or international terrorists in terms of their efforts to try to undermine the united states of america?
▶ 1:40:29Mr. Simmons: I think we still face significant threats from national security.
▶ 1:40:36Sen. Warner: So no undermining of those. We have not seen china and russia pulled back from cyber attacks.
▶ 1:40:43Mr. Simmons: Not to my knowledge.
▶ 1:40:45Sen. Warner: We have not seen terrorists across the middle east lessen their hatred for america?
▶ 1:40:51Mr. Simmons: Not to my knowledge. I appreciate that again. I will not ask you a policy question about why we are taking fbi agents also of their duties in those critical tasks and putting them on immigration detail. The reports we have gotten back is they feel they are wasting their time. If you get confirmed you will have a very important job.
▶ 1:41:20Mr. Simmons: General counsel's in the past have been between a rock and a hard place many times. We hope you will adhere to this. One of the things the chairman said is to the fullest extent possible he will brief all members of the committee on intelligence activities and covert activities rather than just the chairman and vice chairman.
▶ 1:41:40Mr. Simmons: Yes.
▶ 1:41:42Sen. Warner: I will hold you to that. Very quickly, you know this committee has spent a lot of time looking at china and economic competition. I know you cited a lot of things . I hope you will continue to work with us. I think the oia has a lot of great opportunities to look at this economic competition with china and I hope you will continue to work with us on that subject.
▶ 1:42:06Mr. Metzger: Thank you for your question. I certainly share your concern about china. If confirmed, I pledge to continue working with his committee.
▶ 1:42:15Sen. Warner: Thank you. >> congratulations to both of you and your families and on your nomination. We have not had a chance to work directly together but if senator rounds vouches for you, that is good enough for me. Mr. simmons, we had a more extended conversation that I enjoyed very much in my office.
▶ 1:42:45Sen. Warner: We talked about how lawyers in the intelligence community determine what the law is. And how different that is then the typical lawyer in private practice who has statutes, constitution, case law and they are able to basically get a pretty good idea of what the law is also lawyers are famous for being able to argue both sides of a legal issue.
▶ 1:43:16Sen. Warner: One statute in the law is the performance intelligence surveillance act. You are familiar with the importance of that particular provision and the foreign intelligence that allows the U.S. government to claim that about 60% of the president's daily brief is a product of that section of the foreign intelligence surveillance act.
▶ 1:43:45Sen. Warner: We fairly recently reformed the law that dealt with concerns, legitimate concerns, about abuses and privacy concerns which we are obviously concerned with as well. Do you support the reauthorization of section 702 of the foreign intelligence surveillance act as it is currently written?
▶ 1:44:07Mr. Metzger: Thank you, senator, I enjoyed meeting with you as well. I do support the reauthorization. I think the director said it well when he spoke here. It is an indispensable national security tool.
▶ 1:44:22Mr. Metzger: I have seen it at the state department as well in addition to the statistic you gave about the president's daily brief that information derived from section 702 provides critical insights on a wide range of national security issues on a daily basis+ basis.
▶ 1:44:42Sen. Cornyn: In our conversation in my office we were sort of commiserating about how different the role of the lawyer is in the intelligence community than in private practice where you do have a lot more that you can refer to. In terms of statutes and case law and the like.
▶ 1:45:09Sen. Cornyn: As a lawyer in the intelligence committee you have limited tools . You have the constitution, executive orders, but there is many times not a clear legal answer. I appreciate the chairman's line of inquiry. Recently I was reading a book about comparing china and america.
▶ 1:45:37Sen. Cornyn: He said the problem in america is we have lawyers running the government. In china, they are all engineers and they know how to build things. Lawyers are famous for saying no and creating obstacles to getting to a solution or an outcome.
▶ 1:45:58Sen. Cornyn: Let me just ask you again, do you view it as your job to advise the policy makers on how they can achieve their objectives legally as opposed to saying you cannot do that? Do you try to help to get to yes ?
▶ 1:46:18Mr. Simmons: That is a good summary of my approach starting point is the constitution. It is critical to understand the policymaker. The question becomes what is the path for that complies with the law? It is challenging because there is not case law.
▶ 1:46:49Mr. Simmons: But it does take careful, thoughtful lawyers to analyze that legal basis and provide counsel on how to proceed to an objective.
▶ 1:47:00Sen. Cornyn: I told you I was a fan of a book called playing to the edge. I don't want to the intelligence community to be risk adverse. I want to be able to operate within the law. To the extent the law gives.
▶ 1:47:33Sen. Cornyn: I want them to do it without fear. Without exposing themselves to liabilities. Do you agree that part of your job will be to find where that line is to the extent possible. To make sure they are within the law?
▶ 1:47:58Mr. Simmons: Thank you. I do agree with that.
▶ 1:48:01Sen. Cornyn: Thank you. >> thank you. I will use about a minute of my time for a brief statement and then a unanimous consent request.
▶ 1:48:16Sen. Cotton: So you will not yield back four minutes of your time to me? >> I know it is tempting to do that.
▶ 1:48:25Sen. Cotton: Power away. >> confirmation hearing's are the only opportunity the public has to hear your views before you go on to make legal decisions in secret. And yet this year's authorization bill would eliminate advice and consent for the cia. Meaning that this will be the last of these hearings.
▶ 1:48:56Sen. Cotton: The chairman and I have talked about this. I have a longer statement opposing these provisions. My unanimous consent request will be having a letter to the committee.
▶ 1:49:11Sen. Cotton: Without objection.
▶ 1:49:13Sen. Warner: I want to follow-up on what we talked about in my office. Do you agree that there is no basis in law for designating domestic terrorist organizations?
▶ 1:49:25Mr. Simmons: Thank you for your question. I also appreciated the opportunity to meet with you. My focus has been on a foreign terrorist organization. This provides a decision about what is a foreign terrorist organization.
▶ 1:49:57Mr. Simmons: There are a number of factors around the analysis of the base
▶ 1:50:02Of Operations Sen. Wyden: My time is pretty short. I had others come here and get a clear answer. That is what we would do today. Is there a basis in law for designating a domestic terrorist organization or is there no basis?
▶ 1:50:21Mr. Simmons: My focus at the state department has been on the question of foreign terrorist organizations so I have not reviewed authorities or analysis .
▶ 1:50:34Sen. Wyden: I think that is unfortunate because I left the meeting yesterday thinking there was no basis in doing that. This is a crucial issue. I hope you will give us a yes or no answer for the record. So we can have some sense of where we are going.
▶ 1:51:06Sen. Wyden: Secretary rubio has said one of the boats that the administration broke -- blew up could have been interdicted instead. We have been talking about these issues for some time. Is it legal to kill people you could have captured or arrested?
▶ 1:51:21Mr. Simmons: I understand there have been submissions to congress. The general counsel in the department of war participated in a classified briefing on that issue.
▶ 1:51:47Sen. Wyden: I would only say yesterday I left the meeting with the sense that you have some concrete thoughts about policy direction. Not how things would come up in imaginary scenarios but today I have not felt that way on the basis of this. I will be opposing your nomination. Thank you. >> thank you to both of you for your service to the nation.
▶ 1:52:18Sen. Wyden: My question for you is very straightforward, who is the better attorney, you or your wife?
▶ 1:52:23Mr. Simmons: My wife. >> good answer and a public setting when you're under oath. Thank you for the time you have given. I was the practice round. We had a couple of years to work together. I saw how hard you worked in a professional you were. I also got to hear the love story of your time with your bride.
▶ 1:52:54Mr. Simmons: I am grateful for that time with you. Let me get a chance to bounce a couple of questions off of you. I want to drill down a little bit more. Oklahoma made the decision years ago that I vehemently disagreed with to allow medical marijuana use in my state. It was the belief of some that we would not have the legal marijuana in the state if it was all legalized.
▶ 1:53:20Mr. Simmons: What has happened has been an influx of thousands of chinese operations coming into our state. 2000 illegal chinese marijuana growers. Human traffickers are coming to the state. Some of that will be based on tracking dollars.
▶ 1:53:50Mr. Simmons: That was allowed under the biden administration. This has been a very difficult issue. It is one of many issues that treasury has to identify how they are moving sentinel and other -- fentanyl and other drugs into our country. How do you plan to take that on?
▶ 1:54:09Mr. Metzger: Thank you for your very kind words and your questions. As I said in my opening statement, if confirmed, I plan to scour the office of intelligence and analysis and encourage the team to pursue all
▶ 1:54:44Mr. Metzger: Of the chinese economic misgivings in regards to drug use and money laundering. Were I to be confirmed, I look forward to keeping them apprised of relevant and recent intelligence.
▶ 1:55:02Sen. Lankford: You have a unique role in this process. That is a powerful role to be engaged in. To help identify with those potential long-term threats are. How do you see that?
▶ 1:55:22Mr. Metzger: Thank you for your question. I think you are right. This is one of the tantamount responsibilities in the modern era. They are tasked with ensuring that the secretary, the president, and other officials received timely and accurate information.
▶ 1:55:50Mr. Metzger: And are able to make a determination or make reference to the president.
▶ 1:55:53Sen. Lankford: One last question on this. We had a great conversation at the office and I appreciate your input. During the biden administration, iran was considered the largest state sponsor of terrorism. We have sanctions on their oil sales but public report said last year iran still sold $43 billion of oil, much of it to china.
▶ 1:56:20Sen. Lankford: How do we wrap our arms around some of the sanction violations that are happening?
▶ 1:56:25Mr. Metzger: Thank you for your question. I share your concerns. I think during the first trump administration the president had sound leadership in containing iran. Most importantly with regard to countering their terror network.
▶ 1:56:48Mr. Metzger: I think at the end of the day, if confirmed, it will be incumbent upon me to follow the money counter money laundering and to ensure that iran is not able to evade U.S. sanctions.
▶ 1:57:02Sen. Lankford: Thank you both. >> thank you both for your willingness to serve. The white house recently informed congress that president trump has declared us to be at war with unspecified drug cartels in the western hemisphere. Citing new anti-cartel authorities. He struck against boats in the caribbean.
▶ 1:57:38Sen. Lankford: Did you play any role in the deliberations surrounding these authorities?
▶ 1:57:49Mr. Metzger: I have advised on a wide range of authority matters. >> in part to justify the actions that have been taken across those cartels?
▶ 1:58:14Mr. Metzger: I am not in a position to discuss the specifics.
▶ 1:58:18Sen. Bennet: I am not asking you the specifics other than to ask you if you are involved in those discussions.
▶ 1:58:26Mr. Metzger: I am not in a position to discuss the specifics.
▶ 1:58:30Sen. Bennet: I'm not sure why you cannot tell this committee the answer to that question.
▶ 1:58:35Mr. Metzger: I appreciate that and I hope you will understand the importance of leadership receiving confidential advice.
▶ 1:58:43Sen. Bennet: What is your understanding in front of this committee of the limits on the president's authority to use military force to combat criminal activity like drug trafficking?
▶ 1:58:59Mr. Simmons: I mentioned previously the notice that stated that it was an exercise of the president's article to authority in self-defense and defense of others against ongoing attacks.
▶ 1:59:15Sen. Bennet: Is that the advice that you gave to the secretary of state on this subject?
▶ 1:59:20Mr. Simmons: These were military strikes conducted by the department of war.
▶ 1:59:30Sen. Bennet: Is it correct that he didn't have any discussion about this?
▶ 1:59:34Mr. Simmons: I do not know all of the discussions that may or may not have taken place.
▶ 1:59:40Sen. Bennet: Is a correct that you did not participate in any discussions of this at the state department?
▶ 1:59:46Mr. Simmons: I am not in position to discuss any legal advice I may or may have not provided.
▶ 1:59:52Sen. Bennet: Do you agree that the cia does not have any authority to conduct operations within U.S. borders to counter drug cartels?
▶ 2:00:02Mr. Simmons: I agree that there are significant limitations in the law with respect to any domestic activities by the cia.
▶ 2:00:13Sen. Bennet: Do you agree that designating or labeling an organization as a terrorist organization is not in itself a sufficient basis to justify the use of force against that organization?
▶ 2:00:28Mr. Simmons: Thank you for your question. I mentioned previously that that designation is an assessment in addition to the point I discussed about a foreign organization requires that there is terrorist activity and threats against the united states. That designation has a separate legal purpose in the sense that it relates to sanctions when there is material support.
▶ 2:01:00Mr. Simmons: It is a separate legal category than lawful use of force. The assessment includes one about threats to national security.
▶ 2:01:10Sen. Bennet: Do you believe that designating or labeling an organization as a terrorist organization is itself a sufficient basis to justify the use of force against that organization? Is that your reading of the law?
▶ 2:01:26Mr. Simmons: Specifically on the foreign terrorist organization designation does not illegally have a decisive impact either way on the lawful use of force.
▶ 2:01:43Sen. Bennet: Do you agree that anti-cartel authorities provide no basis for the administration to justify any actions against its domestic political opponents whom various administration officials have also designated as terrorists?
▶ 2:02:02Mr. Simmons: Thank you for your question. I am not familiar with the law around anti-cartel activities. As I said, if the focus is --
▶ 2:02:15Sen. Bennet: This is an easy question. So let me ask it again. Do you agree that the so-called anti-cartel authorities provide no basis for the administration to justify any actions against its domestic political opponents whom various administration officials have also designated as terrorists? I am asking you for your view as a lawyer.
▶ 2:02:39Mr. Simmons: I am not sure which chance cartel authorities you are referring to.
▶ 2:02:46Sen. Bennet: The ones we have been talking about for the last five minutes.
▶ 2:02:50Mr. Simmons: Is there a specific statutory provision?
▶ 2:02:54Sen. Bennet: I have given you the specific language that the administration has relied on to take the actions that it has taken and now I am asking you whether or not the administration could use that. I hear you. I apologize. Could you use that authority to turn it against its domestic political opponents, some of whom have been called terrorists?
▶ 2:03:21Sen. Bennet: I find it very hard to believe that anybody with a law degree, much less somebody with your excellent preparation, cannot answer that question directly. The answer is no. I cannot believe that is not your answer.
▶ 2:03:35Mr. Simmons: That designation requirement includes as a factor that there be a foreign organization.
▶ 2:03:45Sen. Bennet: I will take that as a no. >> thank you. Let me rephrase a little bit here. What is your understanding of the general counsel's role in providing timely and relevant reporting to congressional? Oversight committees? Share with me your thoughts.
▶ 2:04:17Sen. Bennet: What do you consider to be timely in terms of your role in making sure it gets done?
▶ 2:04:21Mr. Simmons: Thank you. I appreciated the opportunity to meet with you. There is also a separate provision that provides that the general counsel's including
▶ 2:04:54Mr. Simmons: Those of the cia would notify the committee of any significant legal interpretation of the constitution. In addition to the general obligation to keep the committee fully informed, I think the responsibility would be to advise on and apply that provision.
▶ 2:05:19Mr. Simmons: And then there is a separate provision separately on significant legal interpretations.
▶ 2:05:26Sen. Rounds: In our office we talked a little bit about the advanced technology that is deployed or will be employed not only by us but by our adversaries as well. And artificial intelligence and the use of the quantum environment. That will be a critical part of that advancement. And it is happening a lot faster than people realize.
▶ 2:05:54Sen. Rounds: How do you plan to augments the efforts that are ongoing and how do you see your role in the development or use of this particular advancement in technology?
▶ 2:06:06Mr. Simmons: Thank you. I agree that these emerging technologies are critically important. I do think it is critical to have good legal analysis around these emerging technologies because as this committee surely knows the law sometimes struggles to keep up with these rapid advances.
▶ 2:06:30Mr. Simmons: It is a question of reviewing the law in an innovative and careful analysis and applying it to new technology. That is something I have done in the private sector. These are huge data centers. They are important to our national security.
▶ 2:06:56Mr. Simmons: If confirmed as general counsel, they will be a priority of mine to provide that innovative, careful legal analysis.
▶ 2:07:09Sen. Rounds: Thank you. I do not think they have hazed you much yet today. And I expect that you will probably not get much hazing at all. I think your reputation on this committee is such that we would hate to lose you. We think you are moving to a spot in which you can be a real asset to the department of the treasury.
▶ 2:07:34Sen. Rounds: Can you speak a little bit to how your time on this committee will support the role for which you have been nominated?
▶ 2:07:41Mr. Metzger: Certainly. Thank you for your question. I have had a front row seat to the absolutely critical nature of congressional oversight that knows no bounds. If confirmed, I look forward to continuing robust cooperation with this committee, its members, its professional staff. Who I am very proud to call peers and colleagues.
▶ 2:08:04Sen. Rounds: Thank you. I think with regard to artificial intelligence and what we will be seeing happening, I think the message we would like to share with you is if something was wrong before or not legal before, the use of artificial intelligence in that action does not make it right.
▶ 2:08:30Sen. Rounds: Or if something was right before, the use of artificial intelligence is applied to speed up the process, it is not make it wrong. Is that a fair way?
▶ 2:08:39Mr. Simmons: To beginmr.
▶ 2:08:42Simmons: I think that is a good example of the type of innovative application of the law that exists.
▶ 2:08:46Sen. Rounds: Thank you. >> thank you. I'm a little confused. You have mentioned several times a department that is not exist in our government. Why did you call it the department of war? That is not the name.
▶ 2:09:17Sen. Rounds: According to the national security minutes of 1949. Why are you making something up?
▶ 2:09:20Mr. Simmons: That sounds like an astute citation. There is an executive order Sen.
▶ 2:09:33King: . Executive orders are not law. The statutes of the united states are laws. Let me move on. There is a rumor circulating that people applying for promotions or assignments or admission to employment at the cia are being asked to affirm the assertion that donald trump won the election in 2020. Were you asked that question and do you know of anybody else I was asked that question? >> I am not aware of that question being asked.
▶ 2:10:06King: He said it was critical for our intelligence.
▶ 2:10:17Sen. King: I appreciate that. As secretary rubio revoked the status of several of them based on their exercise of the first amendment, the court said this was a misuse of that power. Were you involved with that decision?
▶ 2:10:54Sen. King: In the upcoming support for that decision by secretary rubio?
▶ 2:10:56Mr. Simmons: As I said before, I'm not in a position to discuss.
▶ 2:11:01Sen. King: I do not buy that. I knew about executive privilege and legal privilege. That goes to the content. You won't even tell us that if you were in the room. I don't think that is privileged. I'm asking if you provided advice to secretary rubio.
▶ 2:11:19Mr. Simmons: There have been many matters in which the statutory authority has arisen. A number of them are in litigation now. Those cases are being litigated in the courts.
▶ 2:11:36Sen. King: You are doing a really good job of not asking questions. The question is really simple. Were you involved in offering that information? It is a simple yes or no question. Were you involved in did you provide advice?
▶ 2:11:53Mr. Simmons: Sitting here today I do not advise -- recall if I advised on that issue.
▶ 2:11:59Sen. King: Ok. I guess I have to take that. Another straightforward yes or no answer. Is it legal for the cia to engage in activities in the continental united states?
▶ 2:12:12Mr. Simmons: The definition of covert action refers to activities abroad.
▶ 2:12:21Sen. King: So the answer to my question is it is not legal, right?
▶ 2:12:31Mr. Simmons: I think there are incidental or ancillary activities that happen in the united states.
▶ 2:12:40Sen. King: I get that. I don't understand. You have read the law. The cia can only operate abroad. Can't you just say that?
▶ 2:12:57Mr. Simmons: I agree there are significant limitations on the cia and the law. There is no internal security function. The mission of the cia is foreign intelligence.
▶ 2:13:20Sen. King: You mentioned that we have had a briefing. They did send a notice. I was there early. They will not give us the opinion. They say that is classified. Congress has not seen the office of legal counsel opinion as to the legality of those strikes.
▶ 2:13:52Sen. King: I think it is important to emphasize that congress has not been given that. As a lawyer, as a professor of law, does not give you pause that under this situation the president is designating terrorist organizations and then taking legal action? The president is the prosecutor, the judge, the jury. Doesn't that bother you as a student of the law?
▶ 2:14:21Mr. Simmons: I have not reviewed all of the classified information around this. I would say that article two of the constitution says there are authorities.
▶ 2:14:39Sen. King: What does the constitution say about declaring war?
▶ 2:14:43Mr. Simmons: Congress has the power to declare war.
▶ 2:14:47Sen. Cotton: Thank you for your testimony today. As I mentioned earlier, it is my intention to hold the committee vote on these nominations as soon as possible. Any member who wishes to submit questions for the record, after today's hearing please do so by close of business tomorrow. I trust that we can get prompt answers from our nominees.
▶ 2:15:12Sen. Warner: I appreciate both witnesses testimonies. I will not ask you again but I will expect that there is an adherence to the law. I hate to have to ask that question. I have seen distinguished individuals who have stuck by that and lost their jobs as united states attorneys. I hope you will review those circumstances.
▶ 2:15:42Sen. Cotton: Thank you everyone for your attendance today. The hearing is adjourned.