▶ 0:20:55Chair Moran: The subcommittee on aviation, space, and innovation will come to order. Pleased to be here, and I think our witnesses for joining -- thank our witness for joining us this afternoon -- -- this afternoon -- -thank our witnesses for joining us for this afternoon for what we think will be a valuable conversation.
▶ 0:21:20Chair Moran: A vital component of our nation's economy, trying to make sure that industry is stable, including in difficult times like the government shutdown. That stability is severely inhibited by critical functions of the federal aviation administration. And when they fail to act, the aviation industry suffers.
▶ 0:21:50Chair Moran: I am pleased the cancellations and delays plaguing our flights, airlines, and airports are easing. One of the witnesses and I were on a flight that was delayed but only for mechanical reasons this week, which has been different than it was previously. Our air traffic controllers are reporting to work, and other central activities at the faa are back underway. Thanksgiving, however, is a few days away.
▶ 0:22:16Chair Moran: While we anticipate the airlines will be fully or nearly fully recovered next week, strain and fatigue on the system is perhaps to be expected. There is roughly 31 million passengers expected to fly next week for the holiday, but there may be lingering impact on the system because of the shutdown. I look forward to the former governor, governor sununu, speaking to us this afternoon. Hopefully providing us with a roadmap as to what americans flying next week will expect from the airlines. Last week, the U.S.
▶ 0:22:44Chair Moran: Travel association noted that more than $6 billion were lost in travel spending because of the inability to fly, and we cannot afford that. Certain airlines and those who work in airlines and aviation cannot afford the instability and chaos.
▶ 0:23:09Chair Moran: Washington's action has deterred young people from becoming air traffic controllers. I hope the consideration of the 2026 transportation bill will begin in the senate this week. That is the plan and we are working to accomplish that and will lay the groundwork for the faa have the resources it needs. The bill was passed in july by a vote of 27-1.
▶ 0:23:38Chair Moran: A bipartisan demonstration there. Within this bill, we provided the department of transportation nearly $26 billion and the faa nearly $20 billion between their operations and facility equipment accounts which fund air traffic control and modernization activities.
▶ 0:23:57Chair Moran: The spending is in part there to allow secretary duffy and administrator -- and the administrator after decades of insufficient budget requests that really sustain an outdated system. This issue received particular attention by me on january 29 when the tragic circumstances occurred involving a flight from kansas to dca occurred.
▶ 0:24:25Chair Moran: It was a moment this congress, this subcommittee, and the administration all gathered around the idea of improving the safety of our airways. We must do our part to enable the faa and the apartment of transportation to make certain americans remain -- america remains the standard of aviation and air safety. Sole integrator of the new air traffic control system is set to be announced soon and will fully fund the department transportation for fy 26 as a necessary step to modernizing our airspace.
▶ 0:24:55Chair Moran: You will hear from industry about ways to potentially insulate the faa from future government shutdowns. I introduced legislation in many congresses that allow for the continuation of central the faa activities in the event of future shutdowns. By examining the delays and interruptions, laying the groundwork to better support the industry that is critical to our country. I thank all of our witnesses for being here and look forward to this discussion.
▶ 0:25:24Chair Moran: I recognize the ranking member of this committee, senator duckworth.
▶ 0:25:26Sen. Duckworth: Thank you, Mr. chairman. Today's hearing injects politics to a subcommittee that up until this point had prided itself on working in a bipartisan manner, whether you or I had the gavel. Using this committee to mount a party attack on senate democrats under the guise of exploring a question already knows the answer to -- a e shutdowns bad for aviation safety? Yes, shutdowns are bad.
▶ 0:25:57Sen. Duckworth: They are painful for all members of the civil service, and donald has gleefully attacked and traumatized them since his chaotic second term in office. Shutdowns harm americans from relying on critical supports and services, like the hundred kids that you do not feed despite sitting on the contingencies not fund. That is when democrats voted to end the check and voted repeatedly to open the government. It is good that senate republicans finally agree with us that shutdowns are bad.
▶ 0:26:29Sen. Duckworth: I only wish there had been bipartisan agreement that millions of americans losing health care coverage is also bad. Had colleagues on the principal, there never would have been a government shutdown in the first place, period. The set I already is failure to extend middle class tax relief will hit red states the most and the damage will not really be disruptive and damaging. It will be catastrophic for americans already struggling to get by.
▶ 0:26:56Sen. Duckworth: If republicans failed to extend the aca tax credits, the uninsured rate in kansas will go up by 32% in 2026. And in texas, the threat is even worse with the uninsured rate to skyrocket by 39%. 39%. Now when it comes to the atc workforce, I will take a backseat to nobody on this committee. I will not be lectured.
▶ 0:27:21Sen. Duckworth: I will not be lectured by a senator who professes to love our comptrollers only when it is politically convenient, but when behind closed doors away from cameras, that can cool and loving senator not only failed to advocate for max hiring requirement during negotiations, he actually opposed it. Let's make it clear.
▶ 0:27:43Sen. Duckworth: The guy that you think loves air traffic controllers opposed max hiring requirements for air traffic controllers during the faa reauthorization. If senate republicans truly cared about comptrollers beyond using them as partisan political pawns, they would have done it numerous times before.
▶ 0:28:06Sen. Duckworth: Not only did senate republicans failed to change the was or allow a simple majority to reopen the government, they blocked numerous democratic bills from passing that would have paid civil servants during the shutdown. The even failed to force a vote to pay comptrollers during the shutdown. I don't want to hear any bs about donna from caring about air traffic controllers. If he did, he would have paid them.
▶ 0:28:34Sen. Duckworth: This anyone think donald trump needs congressional approval to keep the ia operating during a shutdown? Please. He did not ask for permission to raid the dod accounts to make sure the military received pay during the shutdown. I am glad they did, but he did not pay you because he did not want to pay you. When trumpcare is about something like building a ballroom, bailing out argentina, denying snap benefits for americans, he just does it. If he wanted to pay our air traffic controllers, he would have paid you.
▶ 0:29:06Sen. Duckworth: Consequences, norms, and laws be dammed as far as he is concerned. It confirms what should have already been obvious, donald trump does not give a damn about the workforce. The shutdown is over but for a half-million dollar -- millions of texans, and millions of kansans, the crisis looms large. This includes americans like our witness today of ottawa, kansas.
▶ 0:29:31Sen. Duckworth: Her husband was forced to forgo insurance as visibly cannot afford to lose their $1100 in tax relief that enables them to afford monthly premiums. They are not unique.they are among the 24 million americans who are desperate for republicans to extend and enhance previous tax credits. This should be easy. We just need to strike a word or two or simply replace numbers in the tax code.
▶ 0:29:57Sen. Duckworth: If speaker johnson had the courage to bring it to a vote, there are at least 229 votes to pass the extension, a republican authored bill that would extend the aca premium tax credits. I truly hope senate republicans will see the light and realize that delivering health care relief can be and indeed should be a common sense affordability policy that unites republicans and democrats alike.
▶ 0:30:21Sen. Duckworth: And let's stop turning this committee into a partisan sham attacks on one another and get back to the work of keeping america's flying safe.
▶ 0:30:31Chair Moran: I would like to introduce our witnesses for today. First is nick daniels. In his role, Mr. daniels advocates for the dedicated air traffic controllers who oversee and safeguard our national airspace. Prior to his role, he served as an air traffic controller and is a former U.S. marine. Our second witness is chris sununu, the president and ceo of airlines for america, which represents our country's major carriers and cargo companies. Mr.
▶ 0:30:59Chair Moran: Sununu is the former governor of the hampshire and the longest-serving republican governor in nearly a century. I believe it is your first appearance before a committee. Our third witness, james viola. I believe this is a made an appearance for you, Mr. viola. President and ceo of the general aviation manufacturers association. He represents the interests of over 140 manufacturers for the aviation industry. Our final witness is Mrs.
▶ 0:31:26Chair Moran: Eileen spickler, a resident of ottawa, kansas. A special welcome to you. I now recognize Mr. daniels for his opening statement.
▶ 0:31:37Mr. Daniels: Thank you very much, chairman moran, ranking member duckworth, other members of the subcommittee. Thank you for the opportunity to testify before you today on the effects of the 43 day federal government shutdown, the longest in american history. Every day that the shutdown continued, the margins of safety that we and the flying public depend on were reduced in our nation's airspace system.
▶ 0:32:06Mr. Daniels: I am proud to have earned the title of air traffic controller with 22 years of experience both in an faa tower and an in room facility as well as five years as an air traffic controller in the U.S. marine corps. Unfortunately before the shutdown ended, air traffic controllers and other aviation safety professionals received one partial paycheck and two zero dollar paychex despite working full-time and in many cases mandatory overtime.
▶ 0:32:37Mr. Daniels: Seven weeks of work with no certainty of when we would be paid again.that , -- that said, comptrollers showed up and stepped up for the american flight public and for each other. No american should ever be forced to work without a paycheck. Failing to pay the workforce that keeps our skies safe is not acceptable and not sustainable.
▶ 0:33:02Mr. Daniels: Throughout the shutdown, air traffic controllers insured safety of nearly 3 million passengers a day on more than 45,000 flights a day arrived at their destinations. Comptrollers did this while operating with an overall shortage of 3800 fully certified controllers that the system requires. Now, the unfortunate reality is this is not new. Natca has been advocating for increased controller staffing for more than a decade.
▶ 0:33:31Mr. Daniels: Natca thanks this committee for its work to address the shortage and the faa reauthorization act of 2024. It not only updated the faa's controller staffing targets but also requires the faa to hire the maximum number of controller trainees for five years and deploy tower simulator systems at every faa tower to improve training and reduce training times.
▶ 0:33:55Mr. Daniels: This committee must continue its oversight rule to ensure the requirements established come to fruition. But the effects of the shutdown had real consequences for hard-working patriotic american workers. Two weeks ago, we delivered over 1600 handwritten letters from air traffic controllers to congressional offices expressing the hardships that they were experiencing. We heard from an air traffic controller that is training at a new facility.
▶ 0:34:25Mr. Daniels: Her husband is a 20 year, five-time combat veteran who had 45 document explosions and seven direct hits. He returned from iraq and afghanistan with a 100% permanent and total service related disability. Consequently, she is the single source of income for her family. Their son just graduated navy air school but they could not afford to attend the graduation.
▶ 0:34:56Mr. Daniels: She saw a plasma twice, started driving for doordash, and to the end of the shutdown, had to take a part-time job on her regularly scheduled days off. We heard from recent graduates of the oklahoma city air traffic controller training in oklahoma where they were residing because they could not begin this challenging new career without a paycheck. We heard from air traffic controllers were struggling to find ways to pay for gas to get to and from work while others struggled to pay for childcare care so they could go to work.
▶ 0:35:24Mr. Daniels: Air traffic control is one of the most mentally demanding and high consequence professions in the world. Every moment at work requires everything we have. Focus, judgment, decisiveness, perfect decision-making, thousands of times a shift. And what hangs in the balance is our responsibility to safety in order to prevent tragedy.
▶ 0:35:45Mr. Daniels: Air traffic controllers must show update in and day out fully prepared to handle the stress, pressure, and the weight of our response ability to the american flying public and their safety. This is why natca does support chairman moran's act that would ensure the faa could pay employees and perform all of its functions in the event of a future shutdown.
▶ 0:36:09Mr. Daniels: We also support the passage of any legislation that would ensure this nation's air traffic controllers and other aviation safety controllers were paid during any future shutdown, including chairman cruz's keep america flying act of 2026. Air traffic controllers and other aviation safety professionals are this country's patriots dedicated to the safety of the flying public and should never be subjected to these challenges that distract them from their critical safety responsibilities. They are real people. They are real americans. And they were facing very real problems.
▶ 0:36:39Mr. Daniels: They deserve better. I will be happy to take your questions.
▶ 0:36:43Chair Moran: Mr. daniels, thank you. Senator sununu -- sorry, I know senator sununu. Governor sununu.
▶ 0:36:52Gov. Sununu: I appreciate it. Let me start by thanking you for holding the hearing. Coming off of the unprecedented six week shutdown, the airline industry appreciates the promise this body showed in having this discussion and how government shutdowns not just affect airlines but the american people and the american economy.
▶ 0:37:11Gov. Sununu: I also want to recognize and thanks the -- thank the efforts of the employees and air traffic controllers represented here like nick daniels who showed up week in and week out without paychex, without certainty that paycheck -- paychecks, without certainty because they understood air traffic safety is not something this country can put at risk. They are a national strategic asset. I hope we can all agree that should never be used with a political football.
▶ 0:37:40Gov. Sununu: The good news is we all know this problem can and should be avoided. There are opportunities before this body that would remedy the situation not just temporarily but permanently. That leads me to a special thanks to chairman moran for his aviation funding stability act. We need solutions like this to shield the faa and its workforce from the politics of a shutdown. Let me put into perspective the trends the industry saw and was forced to react to as that shutdown progressed and the bigger questions we received.
▶ 0:38:10Gov. Sununu: Typically on any given regular travel day we can expect to see any controller staffing shortages because about 5% of the overall delays. So for every delay out there, one out of every 20 might be because of a staffing shortage on a typical day. So to ensure safety, during the first four weeks of the shutdown, we saw that number tripled to 16% -- triple to 16%. The cancellations were not there. The delays were there because it was all about safety.
▶ 0:38:39Gov. Sununu: But the cancellations were well under 1% of actual cancellations, which means the system was slowed down with increased delays, but the airlines, faa, air traffic controllers themselves were mitigating the situation around-the-clock to ensure passengers were getting where they were going and doing it safely. There was a herculean effort but with far better results than we have seen since the last 2019 shutdown. Then came halloween which was america's true nightmare for our passengers.
▶ 0:39:05Gov. Sununu: After four weeks of building pressures, the controller shortage spiked and we made -- and remained elevated through the shutdown. I will leave it to nick to describe the strains felt by individuals and families, but understandably it was clear the system that was understaffed and integrated before the shutdown was now overwhelmed. On november 6, the faa released order number one outlining the required airspace reductions starting at 4% with the idea it would build to 10% of force cancellations in a week.
▶ 0:39:36Gov. Sununu: These numbers may not sound like a lot but for airline operations that require crew placement, as set placement, moving airplanes to get positioned and reposition, in dealing with the customer service demands that will result it became a 24 hour nonstop logistical nightmare for the airlines themselves. Just three days later, the number of delays had dropped, but the cancellations increased, skyrocketed to well over 10%.
▶ 0:40:06Gov. Sununu: The cancellations themselves increased from about 140 around november 5 to 2800, 20 times that, in just four or five days. Luckily, the senate passed the continuing resolution less than a week after the initial order.
▶ 0:40:19Gov. Sununu: But believe me when I tell you that while safety was always maintained through the shutdown, there were discussions within the industry that in order to ensure that level of safety, which is absolutely required, much larger portions of the american commercial fleet may have to be grounded because logistically it just would not have been possible to keep meeting those cancellation requirements. So what did this cost us? By us I do not mean the airlines. What did this cost america? The airlines themselves have taken a hit of $50 million a day.
▶ 0:40:49Gov. Sununu: Just in the potential refunds to canceled passengers. But more important lee, the economy was feeling all of these dominoes fall. When you add the impact airlines and hotels and restaurants and rentals, the low estimate we found set of flight cancellation impact was close to $500 million per day by november 10.
▶ 0:41:09Gov. Sununu: For the entirety of the shutdown, some estimates are clocking it at a $20 billion it to america's gdp-- hit to america's -- to america's -- thit to america's gdp. A minimum first step is critical for all airspace functions. Second, senator moran's act will pay for the faa during times of government shutdown. It is a public-private partnership.
▶ 0:41:36Gov. Sununu: We appreciate his leadership to ensure the government is living up to its responsibility to the american public. Third, we are grateful for the first 12.5 billion dollars but there is another $19 billion that absolutely has to come. Modernization is key but you cannot just put in one piece of the puzzle. The whole thing has to be there so to ensure those funds will be there will be critical to making sure we don't have any lasting problem in america's airspace. Thank you.
▶ 0:42:04Mr. Viola: Members of the subcommittee, thank you for inviting me to testify regarding the impact of the recent government shutdown on the aviation sector. We are privileged to represent companies that continue modernized and improve existing aircraft fleet and working on new aircraft and technologies that will transform aviation. I wanted to acknowledge the dedication and sacrifice the faa employees and others who are responsible for the safety and security of the aviation sector.
▶ 0:42:35Mr. Viola: They have conducted themselves despite multiple missed paychex and job uncertainty -- paychecks and job uncertainty. I saw firsthand how difficult government shutdowns are in the workforce and I know they are not easily recovered from. Shutdown the mid-the faa to conducting essential activities only essential to protect life and property. Or required by law.
▶ 0:43:03Mr. Viola: As the shutdown continued, the faa recognized the delays and oversight and design approval secured activities were increasing. Delays to product improvements and safety enhancing technologies, and the leadership began to call back more of the workforce inside the faa to conduct additional safety oversight and limited certification activities.
▶ 0:43:27Mr. Viola: Nevertheless, the shutdown significantly disrupted important activities of the faa, including areas this congress prioritized during the faa reauthorization act of 2024, such as the faa workforce growth and development, faa certification activities, the support of U.S. technologies and innovation. The most important impact of the 2025 government shutdown on manufacturers is that they saw no new certification projects or other applications were allowed to start.
▶ 0:43:56Mr. Viola: Even with the shutdown's end, faa will be unable to act on those immediately which will likely take months. The faa and safety workforce including recruiting, enhancement, and training initiatives, were affected -- initiatives were affected.
▶ 0:44:22Mr. Viola: Pilot technical specialists were hired when the shutdown began -- pilots and technical specialists were hired when the shutdown began and were left in limbo and may now decide not to pursue federal employment. The shutdown resulted in missed opportunities to advance U.S. leadership in global aviation forums that support U.S. aviation standards and technology. It also delayed critical safety oversight functions like plain testing, and those will require months to reschedule.
▶ 0:44:55Mr. Viola: Another area of continued impact is rule-making. Including many directed by the 2024 reauthorization act in areas like a safety, cybersecurity, certification modernization, and drone detecting and avoiding technology. These issues underscore the importance of congress acting quickly now to pass a fiscal year 2026 appropriations bill. Passage will provide the needed stability to an agency and allow for key investments in the workforce, modernization, and aviation safety.
▶ 0:45:26Mr. Viola: We strongly support senator moran's aviation funding stability act to avoid effects of future shutdowns as well as legislation introduced by the house transportation and infrastructure chair graves and ranking member larsen and others to address these issues. We appreciate these initiatives and will stand ready to work with everyone to find the best path forward.
▶ 0:45:50Mr. Viola: In the wake of the accident at dca, the aviation industry came together to form the butterscotch coalition to focus on air traffic modernization and staffing issues. The shutdown was counterproductive to these modernization and staffing efforts. Like the aviation safety and regulatory issues I discussed earlier, we must all work to regain the momentum on the modernization priorities. It is a national imperative. Gama appreciates the opportunity to share the manufacturing industry's perspective today.
▶ 0:46:21Mr. Viola: I look forward to working with member of the subcommittee on efforts to improve the strength and operation of the faa. Thank you, and I look forward to your questions.
▶ 0:46:29Chair Moran: Thank you. Miss eileen spickler, you are now recognized for five minutes.
▶ 0:46:35Ms. Spickler: Thank you, aviation subcommittee chair moran and ranking member duckworth. Thank you for holding this hearing and inviting me to be here today. Senator moran, it was nice to meet you in the airport yesterday. My name is eileen spickler, and I live in ottawa, kansas, with my husband, who is here today. We moved to kansas from gaithersburg, maryland, to be closer to kids and grandkids. Being here has been a blessing and allowed us to watch the grandchildren grow up.
▶ 0:47:06Ms. Spickler: I would like to sit here and tell you that we were affected by the many airport delays and canceled flights that were happening around the country. I have nothing but the utmost respect for the hard-working tsa agents, air traffic controllers, and others who worked overtime during the shutdown. The truth is we cannot afford to travel right now. We would love to be able to visit friends and family, but the cost of a flight is just completely unfathomable to us right now.
▶ 0:47:36Ms. Spickler: We are barely scraping by and struggling to afford our basic needs. In our health care costs going up each year. The only way we could be here today is due to the support of families usa. I want to thank senator duckworth's office for inviting us to share our story. My husband retired in june of 2024 after 15 years of working as a government contractor in the food and drug administration and after nearly 50 years in the workforce.
▶ 0:48:06Ms. Spickler: His retirement came earlier than we intended at age 63 because the budget for his fda contract was cut. As a remote worker, he was marked for layoff because he could not report in person to maryland. That is when our financial troubles really started. It has been nearly impossible to keep our head above water ever since. He runs a guitar booth at a local antique store and posts weekly jam sessions for fellow musicians.
▶ 0:48:33Ms. Spickler: He no longer has employer-sponsored health insurance so in june we enrolled him in health insurance, joining the 200,000 kansans on the aca marketplace. Since enrolling in aca coverage, he has undergone treatment for two kidney stones, one of the life-threatening, and received numerous mri's, ct scans, and x-rays that have all been covered by insurance.
▶ 0:48:58Ms. Spickler: His plan is not perfect, and the cost of co-pays, premiums, prescriptions have gone up every year but have been affordable enough with the tax credits that it has allowed him to get the care he needs. In 2025, we paid $109 a month and received almost $1200 per month in subsidies. If it were not for the premium tax credits, we would not have been able to afford insurance for him at all. And honestly, I don't know where we would be or if we would even be sitting here before you.
▶ 0:49:29Ms. Spickler: Access to affordable health insurance is life and death for us. In 2026, our plan is going up 125% from $109 to $246 a month. Because of this increased and with the tax credits set -- increase and with the tax credits set to expire, we have decided not to enroll him in coverage next year and will go uninsured until march when he is eligible for medicare.
▶ 0:49:59Ms. Spickler: At our age and with his health issues, I am terrified that in these two months we could be faced with a health emergency we cannot afford and will end up buried in a mountain of medical debt. For the first time in our lives, we wait in line every other week at food pantries because that is the only way to afford our groceries. Earlier this week, the line in ottawa was twice as long as it ever had been with an almost three hour wait. We are so grateful for the affordable care act because it has made it possible for us to survive on as little as we have right now.
▶ 0:50:31Ms. Spickler: We are about $100 a month over the poverty limit for medicaid because kansas is one of 10 states that has not expanded medicaid. I am a cancer survivor of an aggressive cancer and I'm still in treatment nine years later. I received disability benefits and medicare. The peace of mind of knowing that we both have affordable health insurance is everything to me.
▶ 0:50:59Ms. Spickler: These last few weeks, knowing we are facing a gap in his insurance next year is terrifying for us both. Our story is unique, but we are not alone. There are 22 million americans that use the premium tax credits to help them stay on health coverage. I am here fighting for my family and for the millions more who know the struggle of fighting to afford basic needs like health care. Health care is a human right. Nobody should go without it.
▶ 0:51:29Ms. Spickler: What is the point of having a health care plan if you cannot afford to use it? I hope you will remember my story and take immediate action because we cannot afford to wait. Thank you for your time and for the chance to tell my story.
▶ 0:51:42Chair Moran: Thank you for telling your story. It is in your senator's mind. Thank you. Let me see where to start with my questioning. Let's start with you, Mr. sununu. Many kansans will travel for the holiday. What do the airlines expect to be the circumstances that kansans and americans will face?
▶ 0:52:12Mr. Sununu: As we go into the holiday, it will be full. It will be packed. Airlines are ready. Air traffic controllers are back. The skies are safe. Want to feel confident first and foremost about booking travel but it will be near record numbers, which is great. Looking into the christmas season, we are hoping those bookings pick up a little but. I think some of the stories in october and just the politics around what was happening with the airlines scared a few people off, so we want them to know more than anything it will be busy.
▶ 0:52:43Mr. Sununu: The airlines and the system is ready. It is more affordable than ever before. Better customer experience than ever before. More affordable the mystic than ever before. More reliable that we are now out of the shutdown. Looking forward to the end of january. That is the thing that scares us the most, but right now we feel confident where things are and where they should be through the holidays.
▶ 0:53:06Chair Moran: Mr. daniels, what can we expect from the air traffic controllers?
▶ 0:53:08Mr. Daniels: One of the things I think this shutdown showed time and time again is the unfortunate reality where the air traffic control system is, which is we operate with 25% less than the required essential employees. We operate with 10,800 certified professional controllers when there should be 14,633. Any profession that had a 25% reduction in their essential workers would be screaming for help.
▶ 0:53:36Mr. Daniels: Yet these men and women every day show the rest that shoulder the response ability of burden -- shoulder the responsibility and burden. We will do what we do every day, show up, keep america safe, keep the skies open, and we look forward to getting back on track to the long-term commitment of hiring and training the next generation of controllers and fixing the equipment that is antiquated and needs to be done.
▶ 0:54:02Chair Moran: You highlighted this subcommittee and the full committee's action and congress's efforts to engage in further employee air traffic controllers. Part of that involves training. As you mentioned in oklahoma city. What is the circumstances of the academy in oklahoma city with students who want to be air traffic controllers?
▶ 0:54:25Chair Moran: The academy did not close during the shutdown as I understand it, but what was the number of students there and was there still a line?
▶ 0:54:35Mr. Daniels: There is still a line waiting. Natca absolutely commends secretary duffy and administering for finding a way to keep the promise of the academy open for the first time in our history. It is important to note air traffic controllers took on the added stress and pressure, the fatigue that comes with the shutdown, the uncertainty, but they were also training the entire shutdown. For our first time in history, we saw people start resigning out of the academy, saying, you know what?
▶ 0:55:05Mr. Daniels: I cannot afford to pass the oklahoma city academy, move hundreds if not thousands of miles to one of the most high cost of living areas in america, which are near our major airports, to pick up a career and profession that is not going to pay me and I have no idea when. They started to resign. Not only their resignations, but also controllers in midcareer charted resigning saying enough is enough, I have to go find a job that has more stability than this.
▶ 0:55:31Chair Moran: Mr. viola, I think you represent the opportunity to talk about an area that is not necessarily thought about during the circumstances we have been through, and that is the certification process by which we advance aviation's technology. We produce more airplanes to fill the fleet.
▶ 0:55:53Chair Moran: Tell us in your words what it is that was not occurring during the shutdown that matters to the safety and well-being of the flying public as well as what it means to our ability to compete in the global economy.
▶ 0:56:10Mr. Viola: So as new technologies are certified, the ability to get the new projects to the faa to start that process to get them onboard the aircraft, so the modernization of aircraft will be one thing. And the fact that everything just kind of shift and the rescheduling of the activities with the faa to do those new projects, the new technology to be a leader in the aviation community.
▶ 0:56:41Chair Moran: Thank you. Senator duckworth.
▶ 0:56:44Sen. Duckworth: Mr. daniels, you noted that for the first time in history, you just said you command secretary duffy and the administrator for finding a way to keep the air traffic controller open and keep training. In your conversations with them during the shutdown, did you ask them to find a way to also pay air traffic controllers since they found a way to keep the academy going?
▶ 0:57:03Mr. Daniels: I do not specifically have that request of them during it, but it was loud and clear that paying the air traffic controllers is essential.
▶ 0:57:10Sen. Duckworth: So you commend them for keeping the academy's going but you -- academy going but you did not ask them to pay air traffic controllers. If the faa can continue hiring and training air traffic controllers because of the risk of loss of life, surely there is a case to be made for paying air traffic controllers from reprogrammed funds or donations from industry.
▶ 0:57:35Sen. Duckworth: If dod can use funds that congress authorized and appropriate for rmd along with accepting a billionaire's donation to pay military men and women, what stops the faa from following suit and reprogramming funds from accounts like the airport and airways trust fund to pay salaries or solicit donations from industry? Did you have a conversation about those funds, which I would have supported?
▶ 0:58:00Mr. Daniels: I did not have a specific conversation about what you are requesting. I welcome any chance to pay air traffic controllers for the work they are doing, and they should never go uncompensated for the work being done or be used as a political pawn.
▶ 0:58:17Sen. Duckworth: I think that is what is happening today, you are being used as a political pawn. When this was called, it was named the damage of the democratic shutdown. I think you should have been paid. I think we should have called up senator moran's bill or senator cruz's bill. It is unconscionable we had at least one death by suicide that I heard of for an air traffic controller during the shutdown.
▶ 0:58:46Sen. Duckworth: This is not accessible in our nation, but what happened today is political theater to use you guys as pawns for points post shutdown. I would talk about the data that secretary duffy talked about that was forthcoming for why he needed to do the slowdowns. I think we all would like to see that data. None of us have seen it. I think we should talk about passing these pieces of legislation in a bipartisan way. We should not be scribbling for points, but we are here now.
▶ 0:59:17Sen. Duckworth: So since we are here, I am going to talk about why we had a shutdown in the first place malicious health care -- place, which is health care. Let me ask my witness, miss spickler, as a cancer survivor yourself, how do you feel about republican totals that would largely seek to promote schemes that lower health insurance premiums giving young and healthy americans junk plans in exchange for permission to screw
▶ 0:59:48Sen. Duckworth: Over americans with pre-existing conditions, disabilities, and other serious medical conditions?
▶ 0:59:52Ms. Spickler: Thank you, senator duckworth. I remember when it was like before the aca was passed. And it was horrible. When I was in my 30's, I went twice without health insurance. I cannot afford it. I was getting medication from canada until the whole doughnut thing started. Anyways, yeah, I don't agree with it because I lived it. This is my lived experience. I don't want to be a political pawn either.
▶ 1:00:22Ms. Spickler: What I am dealing with is just as important as air safety. So I don't understand why it has to be so bipolar. Why can't it be both, and instead of either, or. They are both equally important and need to be addressed. Stealing money from one to pay billionaires is not fair. None of this is fair. I don't even know if I am going off-topic or not.
▶ 1:00:54Ms. Spickler: I did not -- I could not. I had pre-existing conditions, and I could not qualify for any kind of affordable plans like $1200, and that was 30 years ago , a month.
▶ 1:01:10Sen. Duckworth: You are right, we should not be pitting air traffic controllers against health care availability for americans. That is not the purpose of this committee. The purpose of this committee and the subcommittee is air traffic safety. And that is what we should be focused on. So let's stop with the games. We should focus on what we need to do to move forward. Letter member how we got here but also remember who championed you during the faa reauthorization. I did.
▶ 1:01:40Sen. Duckworth: I was the biggest supporter of air traffic controllers. To come in here and act like you don't remember any of that is offensive to me. I yelled back -- I yield back. >> thank you, chairman. Mr. daniels, thank you for your testimony and what you shared in terms of the struggles and challenges that air traffic controllers and others faced.
▶ 1:02:03Sen. Duckworth: I had the chance to talk on the phone with some air traffic controllers from new jersey during the shutdown, and I will tell you they were telling me just that they felt like they were pawns, words that they said. They felt like they were being taken for granted. It was really hard hearing the emotion in their voice. I will be honest with you, they were livid at what they were seeing in terms of capitol hill.
▶ 1:02:28Sen. Duckworth: They were straight up telling me, why do they have to shop to work and not get paid when frankly the house of representatives was not even in session for this entirety of the shutdown and members of congress were getting paid? One thing I kept hearing was this feeling that numbers of congress and the president are getting paid and we are playing with other people's chips and we do not feel it ourselves. This is something I felt very personally too. I was a career civil servant in the federal government.
▶ 1:02:58Sen. Duckworth: I worked through shutdowns before without getting paid. I know what it is like to just feel like those that are on capitol hill don't care about what is happening to us. This is just a political game for them. That is why I always refused to take my salary doing shutdowns while I have been up here on the hill. A small token of symbolism, but one that I think is important. You said something that stuck out to me, and I appreciated it.
▶ 1:03:26Sen. Duckworth: You said no american should work without a paycheck. Right? In your testimony?
▶ 1:03:32Mr. Daniels: Yes, sir.
▶ 1:03:36Sen. Kim: Look, I certainly agree with others in the room that we should make sure our air traffic controllers are continuing to get paid no matter what the circumstances are. But did I take from that comment of yours you would support legislation that would ensure all government employees could continue to get their paycheck regardless of the circumstance?
▶ 1:03:54Mr. Daniels: Thank you for your question. Absently. Air traffic controllers and all federal employees deserve to be paid.
▶ 1:04:00Sen. Kim: I think that is important as we talk this through. When I was in office at the state department, I know I had colleagues working in harm's way in afghanistan and elsewhere that were not getting their paychecks. It is just about duty. No one would tolerate a private company forcing workers to show up for work and saying you will get your paycheck maybe some other time. I think that is something that I just hope we can keep in mind here. Mr.
▶ 1:04:28Sen. Kim: Daniels, you also talked about how there has been a call for a long time for increased controller staffing. This is something I just hear year after year and the challenges we continue to face. The shutdown exposes the fragility, but we saw it in new jersey as well some of the problems we had with things earlier this year causing challenges when it came to staffing because of just the difficulty and the strain people were in.
▶ 1:04:59Sen. Kim: I guess I just wanted to hear from you, how do we try to build up and close that delta you were talking about in terms of the staffing shortages? I know there are a number of ideas that have been out there, but can you try to help us articulate for the american people what are the things we need to do to stop kicking the can down the road and actually be able to take steps to build up the kind of resilience that we need when it comes to our air traffic controllers?
▶ 1:05:23Mr. Daniels: I appreciate the question and for the support of air traffic controllers and the modernization of air traffic. But when it specifically comes to the training of air traffic controllers, we often look for some quickfix. When the real solution and the real answer is a long-term commitment to the hiring and training of the next generation of air traffic controllers. We are absolutely not taking a side in this.
▶ 1:05:48Mr. Daniels: We actually thank senator duckworth, the leadership of this committee for ensuring that language prevails and that is what the standard is held today, that long-term commitment, not trying to find another way around it.
▶ 1:06:02Mr. Daniels: But it is also going to come from ensuring we have the training tools and resources, which is also again in the faa reauthorization bill, of the different simulators reducing training time but after 27% at our facilities -- time by up to 27% at our facilities. The shutdown stopped and stalled that.
▶ 1:06:23Sen. Kim: The one thing I keep hearing over and over again in terms of the challenges with recruiting is instability. I have experienced this firsthand when I was a civil servant. I was working at the state department in the pentagon during the 2013 sequestration fight. Watching republicans at that time pushing for budget cuts and that had a years worth of ramifications. Miss spickler, I don't have time to ask a question but I wanted to say thank you for coming and sharing your story.
▶ 1:06:53Sen. Kim: It is a story unfortunately I heard echoes of exactly the same across new jersey. I will promise you I will keep fighting for you, your family, all of these families. Even though the shutdown is over, we know that the struggles that you and others are facing continue so I will continue to get the work through. Thank you, and I yield back.
▶ 1:07:12Sen. Capito: Senator breathless capito here. Thank you for being here. I think really in the last -- I know the last six or seven weeks have been extremely miserable for you and the american public. It has been miserable at the united states senate too. I don't know if it is any consolation, but it certainly is. Let me ask you something that I think happens when things like this happen.
▶ 1:07:45Sen. Capito: Certainly air service in rural areas is so challenged. Service has been cut. I will just say your flights are going out at 5:00 in the morning, coming in at 11:00 at night. And so the fear I think as we head towards what we look at shortages of air traffic controllers and other stressors and strains, how do you view this? Mr. daniels, this would be for you.
▶ 1:08:15Sen. Capito: How do you view this from the air traffic control perspective in something like a shutdown or something where there is a slowdown in the economy? Where do you see the difference of impact between urban and rural america in terms of air service and availability? How do your people look at that, your air traffic controllers?
▶ 1:08:32Mr. Daniels: First, thank you for the question, senator. The impact of the shutdown does one of many things. The disruption, the stress, the fatigue, the absolute uncertainty that it brings air traffic controllers to not be 100% focused on the job where they have to be perfect, they have to be 100%, 100% of the time, that increases risk in our system and is something we continuously advocate for and why we support senator moran's bill, senator cruz's bill to
▶ 1:09:04Mr. Daniels: Ensure we are not part of these shutdowns in the future. But also as far as the difference in markets, what you are getting to see is what we deal with every day, and that is operating a system with less than 25% of its essential workforce. 3,800 certified controllers short. And on any given day, one absence, one person not being able to make it, additional stress and fatigue absolutely impacts america and the flying public.
▶ 1:09:27Sen. Capito: That kind of leads me to it. Thank you for that. Essential air service is what we rely on, not at our airports -- at all our airports but several of them. Because we rely so much on it, how important is it to your membership, governor, for central air service? Talk about that during the shutdown and how that was affected.
▶ 1:09:57Mr. Sununu: The regional hub service system, major carriers having hubs and the regionals pouring into that, as Mr. daniels identified, some of the issues are around the workforce. You have to have the workforce whether the towers or pilots or training programs in those rural areas to support that. The aircraft themselves tend to be a little smaller. You have to make sure there is investment in the technologies. As was identified, one of the biggest impacts of the shutdown, things were not getting certified.
▶ 1:10:28Mr. Sununu: The equipment and technologies were not getting certified. You don't want to leave those regional and rural areas behind. I can say when it did come to the area of cancellations, it was a tough conversation. We are always talking to the faa. We have a great collaboration and working relationship with them.
▶ 1:10:44Mr. Sununu: When it came to some of those looking preliminary at what the cancellations would mean, the faa's and we will not just shutdown rural areas -- the faa said we will not just shutdown rural areas because they are not the highlight. Understanding while the impact would be big across the country, they had to be evenly distributed. It could not just be the main lines get to be maintained and the regionals get hit.
▶ 1:11:09Mr. Sununu: The shutdown was tough, but I think everyone tried to make every effort to ensure that what had to happen happen evenly with the understanding rural areas are always kind of the first ones to get hit and were cognizant of that.
▶ 1:11:25Sen. Capito: Let me throw this out to have her -- two however wants to answer -- let me throw this out to whoever wants to enter. We put it in the one big beautiful bill to get a good head start on that.do you think the testimony or the impacts on our air service and aviation systems -- if we had that system
▶ 1:11:57Sen. Capito: Fully operational, the new system that we want, would there be any difference in the conversation we are having today? I guess, Mr. daniels.
▶ 1:12:08Mr. Daniels: The number one impact is the backbone of that system is the hard-working men and women, the true patriots.
▶ 1:12:13Sen. Capito: I get that.
▶ 1:12:14Mr. Daniels: Yes we would absolutely see a difference because if we had a full workforce with modernization, it would not be disrupted.
▶ 1:12:25Sen. Capito: Does that system work without a full amount of people working on it?
▶ 1:12:31Mr. Daniels: No system will overcome the hard-working men and women.
▶ 1:12:35Sen. Capito: Thank you. Thank you very much. Did you want to say something?
▶ 1:12:39Mr. Sununu: It is all about efficiency, allowing those technologies, the speed at which controllers can get trained, the biggest nature where one tower has one system and another tower has another system. It would allow folks to move around in an emergency situation. The first $12 billion is great but the next $19 billion is critical.
▶ 1:13:02Mr. Sununu: What you will see is amazing and will make the whole system work not just for the airlines, working for 50 million americans that rely on it and all the air traffic controllers that are strained by it.
▶ 1:13:12Sen. Capito: I would add really the world because people are flying here and around all the time. Thank you very much.
▶ 1:13:20Chair Moran: I highlight for committee members and maybe the audience we are working to have a hearing in november that involves the secretary of transportation and/or the faa administrator to talk about the amount of money that has been available, the lack of money that has been made available, and see where we are in the modernization effort.
▶ 1:13:39Chair Moran: And we we were unsuccessful during the shutdown to get federal employee witnesses to be here and we hope we get it heard in november. >> thanks for being here, everyone. We are focused on the airlines, slowdowns and airline delays. Economically from that.
▶ 1:14:09Chair Moran: Another piece that came from the shutdown is the faa oversight pmo's, dpe's, folks who work within the faa structure that allow small operators, 135, 133, the folks doing transportation and air ambulance and medical evacuation and crop dusting, maintenance, they require access to their faa oversight bodies to
▶ 1:14:41Chair Moran: Continue operating for pilot checks and maintenance inspections. When the oversight is not available, those companies are operating under an extended waiver or not getting oversight and safety inspections were wired by law -- required by law. I'm curious what you are hearing from operators, manufacturers, smaller operators in the field.
▶ 1:15:05Mr. Viola: I will take the first run at it. The oversight of the designated pilot exam and nader's -- examiners and, that delayed getting to the field. Trying to figure out what it was they can do, what was important to get back from the leadership and getting it out to employees has been difficult.
▶ 1:15:35Mr. Viola: The challenges of the workforce, it fits into the workforce of the faa and not having the stable funding and not having to know what is going on with the training in some areas. That is why we saw court any action that will pay the faa during government shutdowns so we can keep the oversight going and keep momentum going and as was mentioned, modernization we are trying to do with 12 by $5
▶ 1:16:06Mr. Viola: Billion now, we look forward to getting the system in place with the additional $30 billion so everything we do in the U.S. can operate more effectively and efficiently for taxpayers. >> the only thing I would add, talking about the aspects what happens during the shutdown, whether it is cancellations and delays, to your point importantly, the new way of health care in this country is everything from using broadband
▶ 1:16:38Mr. Viola: And telehealth to getting pharmaceuticals shipped to you, to getting home health care and home dialysis. When we see pullback that happens to cargo carriers. Fedex, ups, atlas, those delays happen and a day or two delay on things that have to be overnighted to homes, these things have huge effects on how health care is delivered. An important aspect, it wasn't just passengers that were affected.
▶ 1:17:07Mr. Viola: The carriers, delivering organs, delivering vital health care to hospitals and the everyday use. Fedex, ups, they had to pull back to those levels and it hurt and caused delays everywhere. >> there has already been a challenge to infrastructure with regard to the aviation employment. We can't get enough pilots, mechanics, controllers. This is pre-shutdown.
▶ 1:17:34Mr. Viola: We already had a challenge with manning faa agencies and in the private industry. When something like this happens it throws fuel on the fire especially in rural areas, with towers at half manning, as air travel is growing. Thank you for your comments.
▶ 1:17:53Chair Moran: Senator sheehy, thank you. We are pleased to have the senator here. >> thank you, Mr. chairman and to the ranking member for holding this important hearing and for our witnesses being here. We have obviously made air traffic control staffing a major priority in the last aviation bill and we continue to make it a major priority.
▶ 1:18:23Chair Moran: I want an faa that does slow down traffic when they think it is necessary, as exhibited by the very unfortunate tragedy we had at dca. I hope that will continue to close safety gaps and I hope we will continue to invigorate your traffic controllers. I think the question we have, maybe for you, Mr. sununu or Mr.
▶ 1:18:52Chair Moran: Daniels, when we were where the faa to set a hiring target to maximize training capacity, it would require the faa to do this for five years through 2033. Do you support an agreement that we must ensure the faa continues its maximum control hiring for 10 consecutive years and that the faa is in a better position to offset retirements?
▶ 1:19:25Mr. Daniels: Thank you for the support when it comes to faa authorization and shared airspace. It absolutely needs to be committed to the hiring and training of air traffic controllers.
▶ 1:19:42Mr. Daniels: The next 10 years is critical to modernize the system and ensure air traffic controllers have full staffing challenge that presents itself. >> 100 percent. Making sure they are funded and paid and all of that, that should be the low bar.
▶ 1:20:12Mr. Daniels: Making sure dis-from coming into the industry, as Mr. daniels highlighted, not just seeing folks walk away from the academy, how do you go to a high school and encourage someone to get excited about aviation in the industry when the highlight is everyday, you don't get paid?
▶ 1:20:32Mr. Daniels: We see negative effects over the last six weeks and that will have negative reverberations unless we ensure the american public that not just the appropriation bill we are looking at moves were but senator moran's bill is real, everyone gets behind it and we make sure this can't happen again. The uncertainty added to the system could be detrimental for years to come. >> I have two more questions. Did the airlines comply with what the secretary requested?
▶ 1:21:01Mr. Sununu: The airlines made of. A good-faith effort in the first days,. They had to meet a 4% cancellation. Sunday we were over 10% because it was such a logistics nightmare. >> is there data that shows that?
▶ 1:21:15Mr. Sununu: There were over 10%. I can pick categories, delta hit 16% the following monday. They realized if they had to hit four or 6%, monday it hit 6%, they realized we will plan for a few percent below that because it could be a maintenance issue or a weather issue, the natural cancellations they had to build into the calculus so they didn't over-cancel.
▶ 1:21:46Mr. Sununu: And as the week went on, it was a just, we will take one flight down. When you take a flight from boston to washington down, washington-kansas city, l.a. To chicago-kent happen. Consolidating those customers and the crew, because there are laws and regulations and actions, a crew from a 737 can't jump in a 787. The flight from back one can't just jump on that one. They need a break. >>.
▶ 1:22:16Mr. Sununu: >> it is very complex but I'm interested in analysis of this and information because I think we might have found some optimization of the system. I think we push sometimes to get maximum, like the dca, I'm sure we will hear from ntsb in january about the low of traffic into dca the night of the rash and was there too much flow and should it have been slower.
▶ 1:22:44Mr. Sununu: The warning bells that air traffic controllers had said went on for months and he did. I'm curious if we wound up having optimization, if we had on-time flight arrivals because we weren't pushing it. The system can be optimized a certain level service delivery.
▶ 1:23:06Mr. Sununu: That is not a moneymaker for, that is not maximizing profits but there is probably a system that is calibrated in the right way to make sure you have more on-time performance and certainly on the safety side. I want to ask, I know you are new at this and we welcome you, at capacity, we are encouraged by the department of transportation reviewing unnecessary burden regulations exceeding their authority.
▶ 1:23:36Mr. Sununu: I'm talking about the issue of our authority directed to d.o.t. To take care of secondary rules, secondary cost on hotels and meals. The southwest meltdown left my constituents, the rainier beach basketball team and coach and his wife, to pay thousands of dollars out of pocket, you remember the meltdown that winter.
▶ 1:24:03Mr. Sununu: They were stuck in las vegas and had to pay out of pocket expenses so we said let's not have this happen again. Let's come up with for secondary -- rules for secondary costs. The administration has tried to scrap the consumer product will. You need to do it, but it seems like a for a is cheerleading them.
▶ 1:24:24Mr. Sununu: If we are talking about two things, I want to address, is there a system where everything can be optimized? There is. We appreciate the first will $5 billion and the next $19 billion will be phenomenal, talking about efficiency, safer, it will be amazing. I think everyone appreciates that.
▶ 1:24:47Mr. Sununu: On deregulation, there is no doubt some regulations of come into play in the last four years or so, prior to 2025. That didn't make any sense. Not for the industry but even for the consumer. They were punitive. They would have raised costs on the consumer. There were instances where the industry would have to pay tens of thousands of dollars for act of god type situations. Every rule on the books, we comply to on the consumer protection side.
▶ 1:25:17Mr. Sununu: >> did you want this rolled back? Are you asking come of the rule that came into effect, we all wrote it and said put this in the bill and have the administration think of secondary costs. It is complex. What happened was far more than just a winter meltdown. Some airlines were better prepared to address the concerns of constituents and give them information about when they might be able to get on a flight and how they might be able to get home.
▶ 1:25:45Mr. Sununu: Other airlines were ill paired because they never invested -- prepare because they never invested in the technology.
▶ 1:25:51Mr. Sununu: I think the concern is having rules in place is important. Making sure we are not creating one-size-fits-all structures based on one winter storm, which was devastating, some airlines did it well and some didn't. There was a lot of complexity. We want to make sure the rules are there and they fit the need of the moment and not so broad-based they crush the consumer with cost.
▶ 1:26:16Mr. Sununu: >> I don't see any of my colleagues waiting in line here on either side so thank you. This, we have a bunch of people here with us today. We have tried to deal with this issue two or three times and it is frustrating. The people who are ramp workers at airports, they clean our planes and help with security of the system.
▶ 1:26:46Mr. Sununu: They are part of the aviation system. We tried during covid to help them and that was with huge opposition although we worked hard in about 25 days to come up with a plan to help the airline industry survive during covid. We tried in the last the faa authorization bill to also resolve the issue.
▶ 1:27:09Mr. Sununu: The issue is, these people, they are not falling through the products when it comes to cleaning lanes and servicing airports and taking people in wheelchairs and getting them to locations. They are not, they are doing their job but everybody acts like they are an island where they just appeared somewhere. They are not. They are part of an ecosystem, part of the aviation ecosystem and they deserve to have health care. I don't want them coming onto a plane sick.
▶ 1:27:38Mr. Sununu: The point of getting onto a plane is trying to make it not unhealthy. Why do you want the lane cleaned by people -- the plane cleaned by people who are sick? Will you commit to working to find a solution to resolve this issue and help us get some compensation for the health care workers that, the only people at the airport, everybody else, flight attendants, people who work in coffee shops, everybody else in the system has health care but these people and everybody dodges it because they think it is not the problem.
▶ 1:28:10Mr. Sununu: They are part of the delivery system and they deserve health care. We work with me on this -- will you work with me on this?
▶ 1:28:18Mr. Sununu: Health care is a giant issue and it affects 50 million americans. I am here to represent the airlines and making sure the airlines are safe and moving on time and we don't get caught in the political side of things and not the airlines that the american public doesn't get caught but those solutions have to be brought to bear. >> it is not the political side.
▶ 1:28:43Mr. Sununu: They are part of, a plane can't commend land without somebody reading it. The airport and that sector work together to try to have the security team, the cleaning team, the maintenance team, everybody have a robust system. I think what happens here is everybody points the finger to somebody else and says there -- there are contract workers so we don't have to provide health care.
▶ 1:29:12Mr. Sununu: , for those workers they don't work directly for the airlines per se. >> they are contracted through the airlines and that is the issue. The contractors don't deliver the care.
▶ 1:29:28Mr. Sununu: I would look to their unions as well. Many are represented by unions and they need to incorporate that but we are part of the ecosystem. >> you will work with me.
▶ 1:29:35Mr. Sununu: . >>. >> absolutely that is what I wanted to hear. Thank you, Mr. chairman.
▶ 1:29:42Chair Moran: Senator duckworth, anything further? You want to come you can -- if you want to, you can.
▶ 1:29:54Sen. Duckworth: Thank you. In the days leading up to the trump administration issuing an emergency order mandating us in production and lights, separate and apart from restrictions triggered by atc staffing shortages, the trump administration claim to the order was dictated by data. As secretary duffy stated, the data will dictate what we are going to do, data-driven, safety driven, and old.
▶ 1:30:20Sen. Duckworth: The irony is under normal circumstances nobody would share louder than me are evidence of the faa changing the culture in being proactive to use safety data and making tough decisions to prevent deadly incidents. That is why the trump administration's failure to transparently disclose the data underlying the emergency order combined with secretary duffy's threats to ramp up flight restrictions unless democrats voted for whatever land republicans proposed, remains deeply disappointing.
▶ 1:30:49Sen. Duckworth: It fails to strengthen confidence in good government. People are suspicious of a d.o.t. And faa that doesn't show its work. Ida -- I have a fifth grader who I work with, and I say you have to show your work and long division.
▶ 1:31:13Sen. Duckworth: Faa's right now frankly big failure to respond to basic information request from my office in the ranking member's office over the past few weeks does nothing to dispel accusations the trump administration weaponized the aviation industry against the american people to score partisan political points. In justifying the emergency order faa noted voluntary safety report submitted in october indicated operators, presumably employees of the air carriers a 48 represents,, have concerns about the safety despite mitigation member -- measures placed.
▶ 1:31:41Sen. Duckworth: Did any airlines proactively with strict flight volumes -- restrict flight volumes or contact faa to reference -- to recommend they consider emergency actions along the emergency orders faa issued?
▶ 1:31:54Mr. Sununu: I don't believe any of the carriers were going to cancel flights because of this but the carriers, airlines for america and faa were talking constantly about data and what they were seeing, staffing triggers, hotspots. I would note what is interesting about the shutdown, there was never consistency. It wasn't like the northeast has a problem.
▶ 1:32:21Mr. Sununu: It was one day it was in the west, one day it was burbank, one day it was newark so it was hard to manage. It was like playing whack a mole but at no time did carriers say we have to take more flights out. They said we need to put mitigation strategies in to ensure safety which they did, resulting in delays and that is why the cancellations were under 1% for the bulk of october until the pressure built.
▶ 1:32:46Sen. Duckworth: The agency observed evidence of increased stress in the national air traffic system and aviation safety data, particularly 40 high-traffic airports which I think is what you were talking about. Unfortunately faa didn't provide insights into what evidence and what specific metrics it used to determine the emergency order was required to help flights at high-traffic airports. Did your members provide any data to faa? Did they share any data behind that?
▶ 1:33:18Sen. Duckworth: I haven't seen it and I have been requesting it.
▶ 1:33:19Mr. Sununu: The biggest piece of data is obvious, the staffing callouts. The fact that that was increasing day by day by day, the fact that you could give more accurate data come on halloween alone there were triggered callouts from the morning to the afternoon skyrocketed. Saturday was brutal, sunday went down.
▶ 1:33:44Mr. Sununu: The data that we were looking at was staffing triggers and callouts and we watched that hour-by-hour. Post halloween it never went down. It was tough. Beyond that, I would have to refer to the faa for data points but those are the ones we were looking at.
▶ 1:34:00Sen. Duckworth: Where did you, that data came from the faa? How did you get the call of data on how many air traffic controllers --
▶ 1:34:08Mr. Sununu: We get that hourly. I can see with the call staffing triggers, and that, they can give you more information but that can get tactual potential shutdowns where the actual towers don't become sustainable to be manned in terms of land again not landing.
▶ 1:34:26Mr. Sununu: If I may, shortly before the faa came to us and said we may need to talk about forced cancellations, you had three or four close calls on the taxiways, physical close calls. That is clearly of concern. I'm not here to defend the faa, they can defend themselves but I think they said look, to the point made earlier, we want to be preventative. We will not wait for a tragedy or crisis to happen. Let's make sure we keep aerospace viable.
▶ 1:34:57Mr. Sununu: Let's not be like the rest of government and wait for a tragedy before we do something. They said we will get ahead of it. And that was tougher airlines but if you talk to the ceos, they will say it was the right thing to do, being safe and smart is always best. Staying ahead of it and being proactive. . The number of calls was huge. Other data I would have to refer to the faa.
▶ 1:35:19Sen. Duckworth: My problem is there is different color data. I have been trying to get a hold of the data and if you got that I want to see it because faa hasn't provided it. Secretary duffy said he was getting 56 retirements per day, the number he put out which I haven't seen that backed up. If it is I would need to know that. I'm deeply concerned that there is a nebulous term of the data and we don't know what it is.
▶ 1:35:46Sen. Duckworth: If we want to look to the future and do better the next time and do better even now, we need to know what the data is that we should share the data and it concerns me that faa is not sharing the same set of data with everyone and we are operating off the same info.
▶ 1:36:02Mr. Sununu: The only thing we looked at was the callouts. There are a couple different areas where you could see the actual number of calls and triggers and we subscribe to a system that gives us that data.
▶ 1:36:14Sen. Duckworth: And sec. Duffy put up a number that was not consistent.
▶ 1:36:19Chair Moran: Thank you, senator. A couple things to wrap up in my thinking. You have all been kind to mention the bill I first introduced in 2019 in an earlier shutdown. This is not a unique circumstance. We have done this before.
▶ 1:36:40Chair Moran: Is there anything in that legislation, maybe I should explain for the audience that the aviation funding stability act is legislation that seeks to insulate the faa in the event there is a government shutdown and authorizes the faa to continue to draw from the airport and airway trust fund during a lapse in appropriations with general fund contributions.
▶ 1:37:04Chair Moran: They generate sufficient revenues to sustain programs including airfare -- air traffic troll, aircraft certification end other essential functions. Do you have suggestions of how we might improve the legislation or the things, if you don't have an answer today you are welcome provided later -- to provide it later. If we get passage of the legislation, what are we missing?
▶ 1:37:31Mr. Daniels: Senator duckworth and chair moran, we will work with you and we fully support it as written. Anything or any legislation that prevents air traffic controllers and other aviation safety professionals from not getting paid during a government shutdown, we are in full support as written and if there are suggestions we will make sure they get to your office.
▶ 1:37:53Mr. Sununu: It is terrific and awesome, we hope it passes tomorrow but maybe out of the committee's wheelhouse, tsa, cpb are very important and other aspects that might not fall directly within the faa structure but are part of the national aviation ecosystem.
▶ 1:38:13Chair Moran: Good reminder. We need everyone at work.
▶ 1:38:17Mr. Viola: We strongly support the aviation funding act.
▶ 1:38:21Chair Moran: I wasn't really looking for the compliment but it is helpful to be able to say that you do. I appreciate that. You have both highlighted two things. That legislation, and the importance of the appropriations process. I would like to give you another opportunity as we are trying as we's week to clear holes -- as we speak to clear holes on appropriation bills.
▶ 1:38:51Chair Moran: The effort is to bring the defense appropriation bill to the with about this week, and allow for other bills to be added including the transportation appropriation bill. Tell us why it is important to pass an appropriation bill for the department of transportation in the arenas in which you work or represent.
▶ 1:39:12Mr. Daniels: We will start with the modern sky coalition as we are part of it, has done a great job articulating the issues. Secretary duffy has gone out as well talking about the need for changes to staffing and modernization. We share many of the same components in the same vision.
▶ 1:39:34Mr. Daniels: The true answers america is looking for, the american flying public, our long-term commitments -- are the long-term commitments and the bills, that we are bipartisan and they are supported by the entire aviation community and not just one group. We are all coming together saying what makes the system better and that is the true I would say value and importance of what is happening right now. You have an entire community speaking in unison of what is needed instead of one entity politicking for themselves.
▶ 1:40:07Mr. Daniels: Anything focused on continuing to ensure that voice is moved forward is the true answer that will bring solutions to the people.
▶ 1:40:15Mr. Sununu: It is obviously critical providing confidence in the system. Because the shutdown was so big and so impactful to the american public, folks will be watching maybe appropriations bills don't take headlines typically, but I think mid-january folks will be watching and saying is this an industry we can count on? Not just in terms of looking trouble but the work force.
▶ 1:40:43Mr. Sununu: All the things nick has talked about and god bless his teams were hitting on, we want to encourage recruitment and at a minimum, keep confidence in the system. The one argument, I'm not arguing against it, is that it only goes to mid-2026 or something. So we will be back in this pickle again.
▶ 1:41:01Mr. Sununu: A year, I will call it the follow-up bill, it is critical because it makes sure regardless of which side, but the politics are, today or 10 years from now, aviation system is not held hostage to it. For us it is about instilling confidence to the consumer and the workforce that we keep coming into the system.
▶ 1:41:23Chair Moran: The government employee and --
▶ 1:41:27Mr. Viola: The government employee and the aviation employee, the year has been distracting to get work done with the faa. The stability of the workforce needs, the longest term stability, not just announcing january 30 but they need to know they will get paid and they have jobs and they can dig into these certification issues my members need to get the new technology on the aircraft and make systems safer.
▶ 1:41:54Mr. Viola: Modern skies initiative that we are members of, we want to see a great system that can support the new and increased capacity, not reduced capacity that we had to show we could do during the shutdown. We want to get these new aircraft that serve the rural communities, new capabilities don't need longer runways so there is so much activity right now with aviation that we want the momentum.
▶ 1:42:21Mr. Viola: The passage of the bill right now I think would be key for investment into the work was of the future.
▶ 1:42:25Chair Moran: Thank you. I will express the views to my colleagues.
▶ 1:42:30Mr. Sununu: If I could add one thing. Since we are talking about the bills and what is moving, I would be remiss if it wasn't brought up on this panel about another air traffic controller who took their life and the mental health bill for aviation and the aviation professionals and the medical system the remains under, getting aviators and air traffic controllers the true help.
▶ 1:42:57Mr. Sununu: That is a must pass bill and that will go a long way for bringing this workforce up to the standards that are needed in getting them the help in advance of them taking their lives.
▶ 1:43:06Chair Moran: What is missing in doing that?
▶ 1:43:08Mr. Daniels: The support of getting it passed, and we are looking for everyone to support it.
▶ 1:43:15Chair Moran: Thank you. I offer my condolences to the air traffic control community and the individuals involved. It is unfortunate sometimes, the circumstances of a tragedy is what motivates us to do our jobs better. January 29 is a circumstance of mine.
▶ 1:43:36Chair Moran: I know the families of those who died in that crash are in constant contact and encouragement to members of congress including me about the importance of moving forward on the air traffic safety plan. And we will do our part as a reminder that you just gave us about things need to be long-term. It is not just fixing a problem for a moment.
▶ 1:44:05Chair Moran: It needs consistent attention and consistent appropriations and financial support. I appreciate the reminder. It has always been my practice to give the witnesses of a hearing my chair, the opportunity to let them say something that they wished they would've said. I find myself in that circumstance often and may be something I said that I would not have been due attract something want to.
▶ 1:44:34Chair Moran: -- you can retract something you might want to.
▶ 1:44:39Mr. Daniels: First, thank you for having a and allowing us the opportunity to talk about the issues. I think what this has highlighted in the shutdown, how fragile the system is. There are terms that get run around and I would take white loosely. The terms of calling out. Air traffic controllers have an extremely high record for showing ■up in emergencies and crises of this country.
▶ 1:45:09Mr. Daniels: September 11, the pandemic, two of the longest government shutdowns in history and air traffic controllers stepped up. But they are calling in with no money. They weren't able to put gas in their car. They were calling in with not being able to pay for childcare. Those are real issues, real americans, real patriots that are doing everything they can.
▶ 1:45:32Mr. Daniels: They don't want to see the burden on another air traffic controller so while the term might be air traffic controllers are calling out, it is not in protest. We condemn many coordinated efforts to call out and the reasons you cite in different locations around the country is because what you can't pin point is when somebody's life and money situation are going to run out.
▶ 1:45:55Mr. Daniels: Or when the stress, pressure and fatigue of being perfect crushes them that day and they need to take a moment before reporting to duty to say, I will give it my best. Air traffic controllers don't have that option. They have a duty to be perfect and anything we can do to support them through this bill and not allowing them to be subjected as a political pawn again, we support. We endorse it and we absolutely need it.
▶ 1:46:20Chair Moran: Thank you and thank you for the time.
▶ 1:46:23Mr. Sununu: We are on the heels of its of the fact that you are moving promptly. .
▶ 1:46:35Chair Moran: Instills
▶ 1:46:36Confidencechair Moran: We were concerned when we scheduled the hearing, and perhaps expected the shutdown would still continue. You had thoughts about whether the hearing had merit after the shutdown concluded and my conclusion was it did. Anything, Mr. viola?
▶ 1:46:47Mr. Viola: Thank you for having us. The modern skies coalition and getting the money now, my time in the faa, 2015 when we tried to work forward to keep being a leader in a -- in aviation and having new vehicles that serve society better, keeping momentum going with 12.5 billion dollars and additional funding would be great.
▶ 1:47:10Chair Moran: Who do I call when I want something, some certification rule or regulation, some statutory deadline to be met at the faa?
▶ 1:47:20Mr. Viola: Call the administrator.
▶ 1:47:23Chair Moran: Of course. I was hoping you would intercede on my behalf.
▶ 1:47:27Mr. Viola: You can call me, I would do my best work behind-the-scenes as well.
▶ 1:47:33Chair Moran: Thank you for your testimony to congress and thank you for being here. Anything you would like to make sure we here before I conclude the hearing?
▶ 1:47:43Ms. Spickler: Thank you for the opportunity to tell my story and be heard.
▶ 1:47:49Chair Moran: Thank you for your willingness to tell us. I have to find magic words in my script.
▶ 1:47:56Sen. Duckworth: Mr. chairman, I would like to request the documents be entered into the record with a statement of the service employees international union, september 24 kansas health care providers through the delegation in support of extending tax credits, and urban institute and commonwealth fund. 4.8 pill -- million people will lose coverage of tax credits expire.
▶ 1:48:22Chair Moran: Those documents will be entered into the committee record without access -- without objection. I should have just turned the page. I would thank all the witnesses for being here. I wanted to perhaps join senator cantwell in her remarks about people who work in airports. I'm a frequent traveler. I guess it is by choice? But I live in kansas and work here.
▶ 1:48:52Chair Moran: I mean airports and on airplanes on a consistent basis like almost all of my colleagues. And during the shutdown, I found the employees at the airport, including the ones that senator cantwell mentioned, to be, I don't know about good spirits but they were polite, respectful, we are all in this together kind of attitude.
▶ 1:49:16Chair Moran: And it is something special about americans and america, in times of difficulty and adversity, there is a common sense that we owe each other respect and try to make certain the well-being of those who we care for is maintained.
▶ 1:49:33Chair Moran: I experienced that without exception, so I thank the folks who work at airports and the people who work at the airlines across the country, just, I worry we are beginning to take these kinds of circumstances as commonplace and they ought to be extraordinary and not the norm. Regardless of which one they are, I appreciate people who are polite and respect. -- and respectful.
▶ 1:50:09Chair Moran: Do I have something else I need to do on the documents? Ok. There are documents from the modern skies coalition, the national aviation business association, billing error left and one for the american society of travel advisors that I would ask to be placed into the record and without objection I will do so.
▶ 1:50:31Chair Moran: As a kansan and someone the state is hosting fifa and the olympics coming up, as chair of the congressional senate caucus on travel and tourism, we need the travel industry capable of meeting significant demands as many international travelers will be visiting the united states including kansas city in the near future. I think of our -- I think our witnesses for the testimony.
▶ 1:51:02Chair Moran: Senators on the committee will have until the close of business november 26 to submit questions for the record. The witnesses will haven't as of business december 10 to respond to the questions. That means my colleagues and I may ask you questions in writing, and if you respond to those questions, for the satisfaction of those senators and for the committee record by the december 10, that is what we would ask you to do.
▶ 1:51:30Chair Moran: That concludes today's hearing and the committee stands adjourned. [gavel]