▶ 0:17:38Chair Grassley: Good morning, everybody. Today's hearing will discuss new facts and evidence regarding nazi's collaboration with swiss banks.
▶ 0:18:01Chair Grassley: Given the important and historical nature of this matter, the committee has rightfully come together for a bipartisan consensus hearing. I thank ranking member durbin for his collaboration. I also thank senator whitehouse for his involvement in this for a period of time.
▶ 0:18:33Chair Grassley: This hearing is part of my and senator whitehouse's ongoing investigation into credit suisse's historic servicing of nazi-linked accounts. We lodged this investigation last congress when senator whitehouse and I led the respective caucuses of the senate budget committee.
▶ 0:19:00Chair Grassley: This hearing serves as an interim investigative update. I want everyone to know that I appreciate senator whitehouse's leadership on this matter. It is said that history repeats itself. Unfortunately, in the case of this investigation, history is in a time loop.
▶ 0:19:27Chair Grassley: We are living through a modern day david versus goliath story, and we all know how the david battle turned out. A few days ago, ubs took action which would result in silencing the simon wiesenthal center.
▶ 0:19:53Chair Grassley: The center's representative serves as a witness today at the very same table with the bank that tried to silence him. Before we get to that, let's take stock of where we have come from. In march of 2020, the simon wiesenthal center notified credit suisse that it found information relating to the bank's nazi ties.
▶ 0:20:24Chair Grassley: The bank initially agreed to investigate. It hired a research firm to conduct a forensic review. It retained former tarp inspector general neil barofsky to oversee that review, but after the investigation uncovered damaging information, the bank paused its review, limited access to records, and
▶ 0:20:56Chair Grassley: Terminated barofsky. The bank cited so-called performance issues for the termination. That was entirely false. Indeed, if anything, neil barofsky performed all too well. And truly dedicated fashion, barofsky drafted a report of what he found.
▶ 0:21:26Chair Grassley: Last congress, then chairman whitehouse and I issued the budget committee's first subpoena since 1991 to obtain and release that report to the public. We also obtained the forensic auditor's report. The reports uncovered historical information.
▶ 0:21:52Chair Grassley: The reports said that credit suisse did not review and investigate all relevant records regarding its nazi past, and applied excessive school restrictions to its review. Even with those limitations, the investigation revealed new information, including nearly 100 nazi-linked accounts, many previously undisclosed.
▶ 0:22:24Chair Grassley: Some accounts remained open until the 1990's. One remained open as recently as 2020. Then ubs acquired credit suisse. With this acquisition came new leadership, and the investigation was brought back to life.
▶ 0:22:49Chair Grassley: At that point in time, credit belonged to ubs for working to write some of credit suisse's wrongs. Inspector general barofsky was rehired and provided significant resources to run the investigation.
▶ 0:23:11Chair Grassley: The bank has spent millions of dollars supporting that investigation. Those resources have supported our archival and forensic research by historians and experts who searched for facts around the world. But just like the bank it had acquired, ubs snatched defeat from the jaws of victory.
▶ 0:23:45Chair Grassley: The unfettered access and spoken commitment to leave no stone unturned, which had resulted in great progress and cooperation, now faces challenges. You might ask, when did this change in conduct begin? Well, right after ubs was made aware that this committee might hold a public hearing.
▶ 0:24:15Chair Grassley: Now, all of a sudden, ubs began with records from the investigation. Then inspector general borofsky learned about games and dunn, the same law firm helping ubs take action against the simon wiesenthal center in new york, is reviewing and filtering what information barofsky could have
▶ 0:24:46Chair Grassley: Access to. So ubs through gibbs and dunn has taken action against a jewish human rights organization named after a famed nazi hunter.
▶ 0:25:04Chair Grassley: That same law firm is now a filter by which inspector general borofsky must rely on their judgment as to what records he can access.
▶ 0:25:23Chair Grassley: Unfortunately, legal action came to a head just last week under judge korman in new york, where ubs essentially tried to block the simon wiesenthal center from fully speaking on all holocaust issues right before this hearing . Coupled with that, ubs tried to limit barofsky's here today.
▶ 0:25:50Chair Grassley: These efforts, if successful, would have frustrated this committee's public hearing. Ubs' conduct is absurd and a historic shame that will outlive today's hearing. Now before ubs' obstructive efforts, the investigation yielded new information.
▶ 0:26:19Chair Grassley: Based upon barofsky's testimony, credit suisse maintained previously unreported and underreported war account relationships with arms of the nazi government. Credit suisse knew that it held nazi accounts, and yet, withheld information from public records, including commissions examining the holocaust.
▶ 0:26:49Chair Grassley: Today, we will also hear about the forced transfer of jewish assets, and how credit suisse facilitated the escape networks known as rat lines that allowed nazi jews to flee justice following the war. This investigation has reaffirmed that swiss banks haven't historically shown neutrality.
▶ 0:27:19Chair Grassley: In fact, they manage to get away with essentially being a part of the axis powers while not fully paying for the consequences. This committee's investigation, as well as inspector general borofsky's is about uncovering the truth once lost to history.
▶ 0:27:42Chair Grassley: Ubs' recent conduct impedes that effort and sabotages its own efforts to show accountability be to ubs, I strongly urge you to find a way to make peace before it is too late to repair the damage the bank has done.
▶ 0:28:06Chair Grassley: To rabbi cooper, there may be rough roads ahead, but I trust you'll never lose sight of the fact that god is not neutral in this fight. Senator durbin.
▶ 0:28:22Sen. Durbin: Thanks to the chairman of the committee, senator grassley, senator whitehouse for their extraordinary work on this issue. Thank you to the four witnesses who are joining us this morning. I look forward to hearing from you. January 27 was international holocaust remembrance day. On that day, in 1945, the allies, in particular the soviet red army, liberated auschwitz.
▶ 0:28:55Sen. Durbin: Over 6 million jewish people, two thirds of europe's jewish population, were exterminated by the nazis and their collaborators during the holocaust, including one million lives lost at auschwitz. As time goes on and living memory fades, it becomes increasingly important that the events and lessons of the holocaust are not forgotten, are not revised, and are not rewritten.
▶ 0:29:23Sen. Durbin: Today's hearing is a reminder that we still have a responsibility to reckon with the true events of the holocaust and to rule that the role of various actors played in their propagation and the aftermath. This hearing provides us the opportunity to examine the past in order to learn its lessons and honor the promise, never again. I look forward to today's discussion. Thank you, Mr. chair.
▶ 0:29:48Sen. Durbin: >> thank you, ranking member durbin for this hearing to continue the work that then ranking member grassley and I began at the budget committee in the last congress. As chairman grassley has so well described, this has been a lengthy saga, and it continues today.
▶ 0:30:09Sen. Durbin: In early 2023, the full bipartisan support, the senate budget committee issued its first subpoena since 1991 to obtain a groundbreaking report written by neil barofsky, a witness here today, about credit suisse's historical servicing of nazi-related clients and accounts. At a time for Mr.
▶ 0:30:31Sen. Durbin: Barofsky was fired from his role as independent ombudsman overseeing the bank's internal investigation into its nazi history. Credit suisse was trying to bury the report. As a result of our bipartisan investigation, that report became public. Eventually, Mr. barofsky was rehired to finish the work he had been hired to complete in the first place.
▶ 0:30:55Sen. Durbin: When we first launched our budget committee investigation in 2023, I said, and I will say again, when presented with credible evidence of credit suisse's wrongdoing, the budget committee had an obligation to investigate. Because of our joint work, never before seen information about the role that credit suisse played in servicing nazi accounts to many of them central to the nazi war effort, is finally being laid bare.
▶ 0:31:21Sen. Durbin: Significant findings include credit suisse maintained previously undisclosed accounts for nearly 100 individuals who were either senior nazi officials in germany or members of nazi-affiliated groups in argentina, including members of the ss. Credit suisse held accounts directly involved in assisting nazis flee europe and escape justice after world war ii via the so-called rat lines.
▶ 0:31:47Sen. Durbin: Credit suisse directly backed german government offices responsible for the extermination of jewish people during the holocaust. This is information that holocaust victims, their families, and the public deserve to know. I'm pleased to have Mr. barofsky here to discuss his most recent discoveries come and look forward to receiving additional information as Mr. barofsky completes his work over the next several months. So again, a lengthy saga it has been.
▶ 0:32:14Sen. Durbin: But it's also a saga that has demonstrated what good, bipartisan congressional oversight can achieve. Chairman grassley has long been a dogged champion of congressional oversight, and for that I admire him. That is one of the reasons we partnered on this investigation.
▶ 0:32:33Sen. Durbin: Elected officials working across the aisle to expose wrongdoing, malfeasance, and makes conduct is essential to advancing transparency, promoting accountability, guaranteeing public trust in private institutions, and I would add public institutions as well, and pursuing justice. As we listen to Mr. barofsky's important testimony today, I hope my colleague see what we can achieve through rigorous bipartisan oversight. Because when this hearing is over, there will be plenty of oversight left to do especially in this committee.
▶ 0:33:03Sen. Durbin: To the witnesses, thank you for being here today. Rabbi cooper, thank you for the keys don't work of the simon wiesenthal center in upholding the legacy of its namesake and shining a light on the nazi's abuses and their enablers. Mr. barofsky, thank you for your unwavering stewardship in your role as independent ombudsman to ensure credit suisse and its successor ubs provide access you need to complete a comprehensive examination of credit suisse's historical role servicing nazi clients. .
▶ 0:33:35Sen. Durbin: Ubs, I want to thank you, too, but also make clear our continuing expectations about your commitment to uncovering the truth about credit suisse's ignominious past. We know that since you acquired credit suisse, rehired Mr. barofsky, and committed to seeing through the investigation, you have generally provided him with the access he needs to complete his work. I trust that this accessible continue as he finalizes that task.
▶ 0:34:03Sen. Durbin: Acknowledging some of the concerns chairman grassley just raised, I remind you of the commitment you made not only to this committee, but to the public. On july 30 1, 20 23, general counsel jake scriven's route to senator grassley and me, " credit suisse stand by its commitment to examine the issues raised by the simon wiesenthal center and to cooperate with the senate budget committee.
▶ 0:34:29Sen. Durbin: Notwithstanding the 1999 global settlement, we have been researching the relevant historical questions and in a conference report will provide the results as they can be ascertained today." I ask unanimous consent that that letter be entered into the record.
▶ 0:34:45Chair Grassley: Without objection. So ordered.
▶ 0:34:49Sen. Whitehouse: Mr. karofsky, miss levi, that is the report with Mr. barofsky's oversight that we still await. I trust that you will continue to stand by your company's commitments. Chairman grassley, thank you again for bringing this matter forward in the last congress and for your continued efforts to see it through. As always, we have a shared commitment, leaving no stone unturned. Thank you.
▶ 0:35:17Chair Grassley: Now, I will introduce some documents into the record, and then I will swear the witnesses, then I will introduce the witnesses, and we will hear from each of the witnesses. Like senator whitehouse, I ask on behalf of myself and him that the following documents relevant to our joint investigation be entered into the record. Without objection.
▶ 0:35:47Chair Grassley: Number one, report of the independent ombudsperson, independent advisor to credit suisse, dated february 15, 2023. The first partners investigating report dated march 31, 2023. Now, would people stand for the oath. Thank you.
▶ 0:36:19Chair Grassley: Do you swear and affirm that the testimony you are about to give before this committee will be the truth, the whole truth, and nothing but the truth, so help you god? I see affirmative action -- answer to that. Rabbi cooper has been a long time activists of jewish and human rights causes.
▶ 0:36:45Chair Grassley: He is the associate dean and director of global social action for the simon wiesenthal center, a leading global jewish rights human organization. He helped establish that center in 1997. He also recently served as chair of the united states commission on the international religious freedom.
▶ 0:37:11Chair Grassley: Robert karofsky became copresident of global wealth management, president of ubs americas in july 2024. Before joining ubs in 2015, he was an analyst and trader working for various financial institutions. Ms. levi has been ubs' group general counsel since 2021.
▶ 0:37:43Chair Grassley: In her role there, she provides legal advice and manages the group's legal affairs. She has been admitted to the supreme court of united states, new york state bar, and bar in milan, italy, and has worked in several law firms in new york and milan.
▶ 0:38:02Chair Grassley: Inspector general borowsky -- borofsky currently serves as the independent ombudsperson for credit suisse investigations into historical nazi ties. He is a partner at jenner & block and has nearly two decades of experience with independent oversight.
▶ 0:38:27Chair Grassley: This includes serving as the inaugural inspector general for the troubled asset relief program. Thank you all for being here today, particularly for Ms. levi, flying from switzerland. Rabbi cooper, please go ahead with your introduction.
▶ 0:38:45Mr. Cooper: Good morning, Mr. chairman, ranking members of the committee, distinguished guests. I am very thankful and grateful to be here today. With my dear friend and mentor rabbi marvin higher, I have dedicated my life to simon wiesenthal's mission to pursue truth and to hold all actors in the holocaust torture and mass murder legally and morally
▶ 0:39:16Mr. Cooper: Accountable. In your hands rests an unprecedented opportunity to look under the hood of the banking machinery that facilitated genocide. That machinery provided financial sanctuary to nazis fleeing prosecution, and led to the concealment of nazi criminal proceeds before, during, and after world war ii.
▶ 0:39:48Mr. Cooper: Simon wiesenthal knew that accountability must extend beyond the people who operated the gas chambers. He knew this as a survivor of five nazi death camps, who lost 89 family members, and went on become -- to become the famed nazi hunter. You have read and will hear more details about our work and the extensive findings from Mr. barofsky.
▶ 0:40:17Mr. Cooper: The body of work reveals an uncomfortable historical truth. The nazis were bankrolled. Previous estimates to investigate swiss bank' roles were incomplete. They probably focused on jewish assets, a very important issue, but only part of the story.
▶ 0:40:43Mr. Cooper: What was largely left untouched were nazi-linked accounts, shell corporations and financial networks, that helped nazis safeguard their criminal proceeds and escape justice.
▶ 0:40:58Mr. Cooper: With the help of jonathan, andrew, of stein, mitchell, event strategies, simon wiesenthal research centers on four continents, and father patrick do all, a vatican advisor on relations with judaism, we provided important research and information to Mr. barofsky.
▶ 0:41:27Mr. Cooper: Indeed, credit suisse asked us to do so. The investigation has yielded historical clarity but also a periods of acrimony. Credit suisse tried to close the investigation not long after it started. The simon wiesenthal center sought protection from chairman grassley, the protector of whistleblowers.
▶ 0:41:55Mr. Cooper: After acquiring credit suisse, ubs committed to the review under barbara levi's leadership. But that has changed as we near the end of the investigation. Ubs is actively blocking important aspects of Mr. barofsky's work.
▶ 0:42:21Mr. Cooper: Additionally, just days before the hearing, ubs asked the court in the eastern district of new york to enter an order that threatens the very existence of the simon wiesenthal center's pursuit of our mission to bring truth to light. This is wrong. It is wrong that the swiss banks sat on this historical truth for decades.
▶ 0:42:49Mr. Cooper: It is wrong that the simon wiesenthal center is in a fight for its life in an american court. Let me be very clear, silencing researchers, intimidating human rights organizations, or restricting historical truths undermines integrity and weakens confidence.
▶ 0:43:11Mr. Cooper: And when those with unlimited resources controlled the historical record, the issue is no longer about the past, it is a warning about the present and the future. This isn't just about dusty, old papers and archives. This is about money and banks. You may ask, why does this matter now? We are living in a dangerous period.
▶ 0:43:44Mr. Cooper: As you know, anti-semitism is rising at levels not seen in generations. Since the atrocities of october 7, we have witnessed a surgeon hatred and denial. We see, every day, how moral clarity erodes when truth becomes negotiable. This investigation into credit suisse underscores a critical lesson.
▶ 0:44:13Mr. Cooper: Genocide is not only an ideological cry, it is an economic one. Without the banks to facilitate transactions and hide nazi assets, without the banks funding escape routes for nazi war criminals, we would not have to be here today. And without accountability, profits from crimes against humanity quietly passed from one generation to the next. Mr.
▶ 0:44:43Mr. Cooper: Chairman, thank you for your leadership, your moral clarity, and your commitment to the truth. Thank you and all the senators.
▶ 0:44:53Chair Grassley: Mr. karofsky.
▶ 0:44:58Mr. Karofsky: Chairman grassley, ranking member durbin, acting ranking member whitehouse, members of the committee, thank you for the opportunity to testify. My name is robert karofsky, president of ubs americas and the copresident of global wealth management at ubs.
▶ 0:45:18Ms. Levi: Senator ernst on my name is barbara leavy, group council of ubs, member of the executive board. I appreciate the opportunity to testify today. This hearing is very important to me because I truly believe that ubs has done an unprecedented voluntary work to uncover the truths and bring historical facts to life. It is also important to me personally. As my family was tragically impacted by the holocaust.
▶ 0:45:48Mr. Karofsky: Thank you, barbara. I appear before this committee today as the most senior U.S. executive of ubs and also as a proud jewish american with deep knowledge of the holocaust. We approached today's topic with solemn respect. The holocaust perpetrated by the nazis is the darkest chapter in human history and is an atrocity that continues to have profound meaning to this day.
▶ 0:46:14Mr. Karofsky: Although more than 80 years has passed since the fall of nazi germany, we can never allow ourselves to forget the systematic murder of 6 million jews and the horror experienced by survivors. As many of you know, shortly after ubs' acquisition credit suisse in 2023, ubs decided to look deeper into credit suisse's troubling world war ii era history, including into the bank's possible connections with names identified by the simon
▶ 0:46:45Mr. Karofsky: Wiesenthal center. We shortly thereafter be engaged Mr. barofsky as on bondsmen to oversee the teams of researchers, archivists, and independent forensic experts to complete the investigation. We want to commend Mr. barofsky on the new historical information that he and the team have helped us bring to light. For example, on the rat lines.
▶ 0:47:11Mr. Karofsky: As we discussed the current investigation, it's important to also understand the broader historical landscape. Over the last 30 years, ubs and credit suisse have undertaken massive efforts to examine their world war ii-era history. This includes an unprecedented audit of swiss banks in 1996, led by former federal reserve board chair paul volcker, investigation by U.S.
▶ 0:47:37Mr. Karofsky: Congress and state department, and investigations conducted by the independent commission at the behest of swiss parliament. The findings of these investigations painted a deeply troubling picture that included many previously unreported, shameful acts by swiss banks that were exposed, acknowledged, and ultimately addressed in a landmark court-approved 1999 settlement.
▶ 0:48:06Mr. Karofsky: Under terms of the settlement, credit suisse and ubs agreed to pay $1.25 billion, an unprecedented amount at that time, which was distributed to ancestors of the holocaust and appointed special masters.
▶ 0:48:26Mr. Karofsky: This involve the release of all claims whether known or unknown, in any way associated with nazi germany including individual nazis and associated entities, the holocaust, world war ii, it's prelude, and aftermath. The settlement was embraced in writing by leading jewish ngos including the simon wiesenthal center.
▶ 0:48:50Mr. Karofsky: No legally binding, the closure at that center does not preclude continuation of historical purposes. That is what ubs has done in a comprehensive search for new historical facts. As promised, ubs has provided Mr. barofsky with unprecedented access to credit suisse's files and archives.
▶ 0:49:14Mr. Karofsky: The only exception has been certain communications between credit suisse and its attorneys during the 1990's because the simon wiesenthal center and others have threatened us with litigation. That is why we have asked the court to clarify the scope of the settlement. But let me be clear about three things. First, we very much want to produce these privileged documents to Mr. barofsky. Second, we have not sued the simon wiesenthal center.
▶ 0:49:44Mr. Karofsky: Third, we have great respect for rabbi cooper and Mr. barofsky and welcome the robust discussion this committee has facilitated today. In conclusion, when we took over credit suisse almost three years ago, ubs fully committed to getting the ombudsman's investigation back on track so that it could be completed. At the time, we had ubs did not have a clear understanding of this matter and how it was playing out.
▶ 0:50:15Mr. Karofsky: Now, with three years of experience, our priorities to complete this review so that the world can benefit from the findings in the final report. Ubs will continue to follow the facts. We welcome your questions.
▶ 0:50:29Chair Grassley: Thank you, Mr. karofsky. Mr. barofsky.
▶ 0:50:34Mr. Barofsky: Chairman grassley, ricky member durbin, senator whitehouse, members of the committee, my name is neil barofsky. Is my privilege to testify before you today as the independent ombudsperson. In that role, it is my job to provide independent oversight and ensure the integrity of the ongoing investigation into the ties between credit suisse and the nazis before, during, and after world war ii.
▶ 0:51:03Mr. Barofsky: As the chairman noted, my path through this hearing has not been an easy one. 2022, I was fired by credit suisse when I refused to go along with its efforts to suppress the truth. Thanks to the encouragement of chairman grassley and then-chairman whitehouse, I was rehired by ubs with the mandate to finish my job. I cannot put in words how grateful I am to both of you for your trust in me and your support.
▶ 0:51:29Mr. Barofsky: I would also like to thank my co-panelist rabbi cooper from the simon wiesenthal center. But for their courage, refusal to be silenced, and their commitment, their deep, deep commitment that there is no such thing as an expiration date for accountability for those who enabled the holocaust, they would be no testimony today and there would be no investigation.
▶ 0:51:57Mr. Barofsky: I would also like to thank ubs for rehiring me and for his commitment of resources. Although I disagree very strongly with Mr. karofsky's characterization that the bank has any right under the engagement letter to withhold any documents from us, it is those resources that make all of this possible, including the final report that I plan to prepare by the end of this year which will set forth not only additional details about what is in my testimony today, but than
▶ 0:52:27Mr. Barofsky: Any other areas that are in scope and will be included as part of this investigation. In my testimony today, we talked about some of the previously unreported ties between credit suisse and some of the instrumentalities of the nazi government. This includes accounts of something called the german foreign office.
▶ 0:52:46Mr. Barofsky: When hitler would invade a country, the german foreign office would get involved to help round up the jews in those countries, heard them into ghettos for eventual transportation into the concentration and extermination camps.
▶ 0:53:04Mr. Barofsky: Credit suisse had four accounts with the german foreign office, and these were administered at the highest levels of the nazi government, with adolf hitler's own secret cabinet of council advisors dispatching the account manager in 1940, to go to zürich to meet with officials at credit suisse, to discuss the fund management of these accounts in the interest of the third reich. My testimony also corrects an historical error.
▶ 0:53:31Mr. Barofsky: Back in the 1990's, a swiss german journalist found in some german archives documents that indicated a relationship between credit suisse and the ss and its economic arm called dwb. The ss was the paramilitary organization used by the nazis whose response delays included the administration of the concentration camps. Dwb was part of his economic arm. Part of the nazi enterprise of profiting off of the holocaust.
▶ 0:54:02Mr. Barofsky: This meant monetizing everything from slave labor of concentration camp prisoners to the theft of their assets and personal belongings when they got to the camps, and even monetizing murder, selling the hair that was shaved off of jewish women and children as they were marched into the chambers. But credit suisse denied the existence of this account and said there was no record in its archives. This investigation has proven that to be untrue.
▶ 0:54:32Mr. Barofsky: Investigation has found an account registry card in the name of leo wolk, they convicted nazi war criminal who oversaw the millions and swiss francs in today's currency of dirty nazi ss money that was in that account. The investigation also disclose for the first time how that money got there, how the ss used another account at credit suisse -- this one in the name of a swiss company that was on the allied blacklists, to launder those funds.
▶ 0:55:07Mr. Barofsky: My testimony also discusses the role that credit suisse had as landlord and banker to argentine smuggling operation that smuggled nazis out of germany and into argentina. Credit suisse had maintained bank account for many of the key operatives of this so-called rat line.
▶ 0:55:28Mr. Barofsky: It is almost certain from those accounts that bribes were paid to french and swiss officials in order to clear a path for these nazi war criminals, to a life of luxury and prosperity in argentina as they fled allied justice. I cannot thank you enough for having this hearing today. As rabbi cooper mentioned, not only are we seeing a surge in antisemitism right now, we are also seeing its normalization. It is everywhere.
▶ 0:55:59Mr. Barofsky: College campuses, social media, political discourse, even from government officials at times. One of the things that my testimony shows is what happens when the violent anti-semitism preached by hitler in the 1940's and some of the all too common voices of extremism today become mainstream. How respected institution become ready, willing, and able to disregard them a reality in pursuit of profits and power.
▶ 0:56:31Mr. Barofsky: Much like, as my testimony describes, how credit suisse, in order to avoid friction with the nazis, was willing to execute the grabbing of assets out of its jewish account holders and dropping them into the accounts of its nazi bank clients. Time and time again, history has shown what happens when anti-semitism is met with silence. Today, this committee speaks up. You are making it very clear, the holocaust did happen.
▶ 0:57:04Mr. Barofsky: History does matter. And you are saying, never again, not on your watch, will anti-semitism become normalized and part of business as usual for public and private institutions. Thank you. I look forward to answer any questions you have. Chairman grassley, I would ask that you make my written testimony a part of the record.
▶ 0:57:24Chair Grassley: So ordered. Yes. We have seven-minute questions, one round of peace. -- a piece. I will start with my seven minutes. General barofsky, you saw challenges in overseeing the important investigations.
▶ 0:57:50Chair Grassley: Credit suisse wrongfully fired you, smear your reputation, and recently ubs has imposed access restrictions. So inform the committee how this past and current conduct has impacted your ability to get the job done. In your answer, please answer how the current ubs leadership has reacted to your concerns?
▶ 0:58:17Mr. Barofsky: Thank you, Mr. chairman. It is essential for me to do this job, for me to be able to have access to all relevant documents. The way I do find relevant, these are accounts that indicate whether a nazi account holder had an account or did not.
▶ 0:58:43Mr. Barofsky: When I agreed to come back to ubs, we framed our engagement letter in a way to make sure that what happened previously under credit suisse could not happen again. Our engagement letter makes clear three different spots that we are entitled to all documents. The only exception is those which the bank is prohibited from providing us under law.
▶ 0:59:09Mr. Barofsky: So, not being able to see a subset of privileged documents, for those areas that these documents touch on, could have a very significant impact on my ability to finish the job. I don't know what is in those documents, I don't know how it potentially impacts a decision, whether a nazi had an account or did not have an account. I cannot tell the committee or anyone else if it impacts the extent of the relationships. And these are relevant documents.
▶ 0:59:40Mr. Barofsky: Just to give you as an example, when this dispute first arose, we gave a set of search terms to the bank. Those search terms were the names and entities referenced in my individual testimony. We asked them to run them against a set of documents at the banks it might be privileged. There were hits, positives. Those are some of documents are being withheld, and we need to have access to that information in order to finish the job.
▶ 1:00:05Chair Grassley: Also to you, described the committee the most important investigative findings you have uncovered to date. You may have just said that, but go into that.
▶ 1:00:18Mr. Barofsky: Thank you. It's a hard question. People with different perspectives can look at different things and see different things as being the most important. Certainly, the role of the nazi client who helped effectuate the holocaust could be one. As a former prosecutor, the idea of the escape of justice that was facilitated by the nazi rat lines, that the bank was landlord to.
▶ 1:00:46Mr. Barofsky: But I think the thing that hits me deepest, Mr. chairman, is the forced transfer of assets. We have descriptions of different ones, examples that we are disclosing for the first time in my testimony. But I cannot help think of the civil servant. I spent most of my career working in government as a civil servant.
▶ 1:01:06Mr. Barofsky: I just cannot help but think of that individual saving money, bit by bit, they are not well -paid position, as we know. As the horrors of the 1930's in nazi germany started to ascend, thinking, I'm going to put my money in a swiss bank. That is where I can be sure, even if I don't make it out of this, maybe my kids or grandkids can benefit from that money I saved.
▶ 1:01:36Mr. Barofsky: For me, when I think about what must have gone through these people's minds when they found out their assets, life savings were being plucked from their accounts and delivered to their nazi oppressors. I think of the individual we talked about, as he was boarded on a train to the concentration camp, to his eventual murder, knowing that he had been left penniless at the hands of that swiss bank. I think that is the one that impacts me the most.
▶ 1:02:03Chair Grassley: Thank you for your information. I hope everyone knows that the center will be watching, and the truth will come out, always does. Mr. karofsky, Ms. levi, it's my understanding that once the investigative report is finished, the senate may not have access to a version that names all nazi-linked account holders.
▶ 1:02:31Chair Grassley: My question to both of you is and will ubs commit to providing a report with unredacted names to the senate. If not, why not?
▶ 1:02:41Ms. Levi: Chairman, thank you for the question. What we are doing at the moment, we are working with Mr. barofsky to try to really provide as many names as possible. There are limitations due to swiss law. However, we don't want to protect any of those names. We will put our best effort to provide as many names as possible.
▶ 1:03:06Chair Grassley: Now, I will go to rabbi cooper. As I mentioned in my opening, this committee is aware of the legal action that ubs has taken against your organization. I want to thank you for being here. What are the three most important points you want the public to take away from this hearing?
▶ 1:03:25Mr. Cooper: Thank you, Mr. chairman. I would say there are three points. Number one, the economic component of genocide. Genocides can only take place when you have organization, industry, infrastructure, bureaucracy, and access to banks.
▶ 1:03:47Mr. Cooper: I think the work and the commitment of this committee, I pray and hope, will lead to making sure that no one involved in crimes against humanity, or helping that, would ever be in a position to retain those blood-soaked assets. Secondly, we are talking about misleading history.
▶ 1:04:11Mr. Cooper: The swiss banks, despite their promises over the course of decades, we find out and confirmed through the work of neil barofsky and his team, have withheld the truth. And we're only finding out that truth because of his efforts and because of the power of this committee. We need to make sure there is going to be accountability.
▶ 1:04:39Mr. Cooper: We have to deal with the facts as they are emerging, and not just rely on institutional statements made decades ago. Finally, we need accountability for these activities, and we need to create a repository for the important documentation that has emerged as a result of Mr. barofsky's research.
▶ 1:05:06Mr. Cooper: And I might add, the intervention on the part of president milet of argentina who has unlocked millions of documents within argentinian archives. We need a repository for all of that information, researchers, the media, young students, so that future generations can learn from the terrible errors of the past and not repeat them.
▶ 1:05:31Chair Grassley: Senator durbin.
▶ 1:05:33Sen. Durbin: Thanks, Mr. chairman. I am puzzled, hope that we can clarify one or two points here. Mr. karofsky, I think you have made it clear that you believe your institution has made a good faith effort to disclose information and to bring justice to this issue.
▶ 1:05:57Sen. Durbin: The settlement agreement come the last payment was made seven or eight years ago, and it was $1.3 billion in total. As I understand, your testimony, your bank financial institution did not produce the distribution table for this. It was done by others.
▶ 1:06:20Sen. Durbin: It is still, at this point, puzzles me that there is a difference of opinion as to whether you have made full disclosure of relevant materials and facts. You had said in your testimony that your institution has disclosed 16.5 million documents provided to the ombudsperson, and that there is a dispute over 150 documents remaining. I don't know if that is what Mr.
▶ 1:06:50Sen. Durbin: Barofsky was referring to when he talked about full disclosure. Would you please clarify why you have not produce the disputed 150 documents?
▶ 1:07:00Ms. Levi: Maybe I respond to the question, senator, since it is a specific legal question. These are privileged documents. I wanted to explain.
▶ 1:07:18Ms. Levi: First, as rob said, we wanted to provide these documents, and we are actively looking into all possible options to provide these documents, at the same time, protecting the specific privileged of those documents. This is a small set of documents. We are talking about less than 300 documents versus the 16.5 million documents that have been produced so far.
▶ 1:07:48Ms. Levi: The reason these documents, this specific set of documents we have claims privileged, these documents refer to the 1999 holocaust litigation which is a specific subset of matter that we are responsible for. We wanted to clarify that is also the reason for the request of an order from judge korman, so we can provide those documents to Mr.
▶ 1:08:17Ms. Levi: Barofsky, so that he has full access to everything.
▶ 1:08:22Sen. Durbin: So let me ask either rabbi cooper or Mr. barofsky, why do you believe these documents identified as 150 based on the statement from Mr. karofsky, are so critically important that this matter is still in litigation?
▶ 1:08:41Mr. Cooper: Obviously, neil barofsky will have the answer, but just let me say the following. It is not about the number of documents. It is really about our last chance to learn the full truth. And to make this kind of intervention sort of in the ninth inning leads one to wonder why such steps would be taken. I am not a lawyer, I'll be at a rabbi -- albeit a rabbi.
▶ 1:09:12Sen. Durbin: In the hierarchy of things come you don't need to apologize. [laughter]
▶ 1:09:17Mr. Cooper: Thank you. I will sleep better tonight. But I think it's important for why we are really here today. We are here using the continued efforts and power, bipartisanship of the united states senate, to finally get to the bottom of the truth. You have a phenomenal team in neil barofsky and his team.
▶ 1:09:42Mr. Cooper: I think, I hope as a result of this hearing, he can actually get access to the full picture and come back and give his report.
▶ 1:09:48Sen. Durbin: Mr. barofsky, would you like to add anything?
▶ 1:09:52Mr. Barofsky: I want to be clear, I have zero interest in litigation documents, communication between lawyers and their clients. That is not what we are talking about here. What we are talking about our documents relative to the question about whether a nazi had an account or didn't have an account with credit suisse. That is only concerned about. While 150 doesn't sound like a lot, these are not one or two page document, these could be binders, 500 to 1000 pages each.
▶ 1:10:21Mr. Barofsky: When it comes down to what our investigation is, we are looking for needles and one of the most enormous haystacks you can imagine. Picture the final scene in "raiders of the lost ark." that is what the accounts from credit suisse are. If you live them up from my home, you would almost get to new york city. The number of documents to date over our entire investigation isn't 16 million. That is the total amount provided. You are talking tens of thousands of documents max that are actually relevant.
▶ 1:10:51Mr. Barofsky: All I'm concerned about are those documents that hit on our search terms. Documents that relate to specific nazi and nazi enablers, even if it's a small number.
▶ 1:11:01Sen. Durbin: May ask a question? How long have these documents been in dispute?
▶ 1:11:06Mr. Barofsky: Since november of last year. Up until that point, ubs' cooperation have been picture-perfect.
▶ 1:11:14Sen. Durbin: Your testimony written and oral is an effort by your institution to be helpful and come clean. It appears in the situation, for several months, you have been at loggerheads, in dispute with these documents. Is there any chance we can resolve this in the near term?
▶ 1:11:32Mr. Karofsky: Thank you, ranking member. We are driving. I appreciate Mr. barofsky's comments about our cooperation. As stated, we have provided 16.5 million documents, 44 pages, four terabytes of data. We provided access to 18 archives across seven countries. We would like to resolve this issue. We will continue to work toward that. And we want to continue to cooperate. We want to find the truth.
▶ 1:12:04Mr. Karofsky: We will continue to work toward that effort.
▶ 1:12:05Sen. Durbin: From your lips, I hope that you are successful. Thank you, Mr. chairman. >> thank you, Mr. chairman. It is stunning to me here, 80 years after the end of world war ii, that we are talking about this topic. But this isn't unique.
▶ 1:12:33Sen. Durbin: Recently, we passed some important legislation that have to do with justice for holocaust victims of nazi-looted art. Fortunately, we were able to pass that to the senate, now awaiting action in the house.
▶ 1:12:52Sen. Durbin: I guess, rabbi cooper, as you were testifying, the saying by george santa ana, those that don't remember history are condemned to repeat it. Is that one of the reasons why you think it's so important to get to the bottom of this story?
▶ 1:13:12Mr. Cooper: Thank you, senator. Thank you for your leadership on that important legislation on stolen art. I think it's a core component. I think it was one of the major motivations of simon wiesenthal after world war ii, to stick to a mission impossible really, brodd 1100 nazi war criminals before the bar of justice.
▶ 1:13:38Mr. Cooper: He told me many times, I am doing this as a warning to future potential perpetrators. I am doing it for the education of younger generations, that they do not repeat those terrible decisions. Tragically, we live in a world today where a lot of those lessons have been forgotten, and a lot of those horrible decisions are repeated again and again.
▶ 1:14:05Mr. Cooper: When I was asked by chairman grassley, I keep coming back to the fact that we need to remember, that at the core of all of these genocides -- not only are the ideologies of hate but also agreed, economics. We are seeing it play out today.
▶ 1:14:23Sen. Cornyn: I appreciate your statement that there is no such thing as expiration date unaccountability. That is really what we are talking about here. Can you help quantify for us what we are talking about, the universe of assets that credit suisse had and was involved with?
▶ 1:14:46Mr. Barofsky: That is something that will be detailed in our final report. It is a difficult task because so many documents have been lost to history. When we are reviewing documents, often times it is just a single document, a single account registry card may be all we have to go on to prove a relationship, but other times, we have significant detail transactional material.
▶ 1:15:13Mr. Barofsky: So what we will do in the final report is to the extent we have those documents that list asset amounts, that will all be spelled out. I think in my testimony today, which is only a very small number of the total accounts, it probably totals 30 million swiss francs in today's currency, in these more limited examples. But we will have a lot more detail and a lot more significant assets in their final report, all of which will be laid out.
▶ 1:15:43Sen. Cornyn: Was a privilege log given to you?
▶ 1:15:46Mr. Barofsky: No.
▶ 1:15:48Sen. Cornyn: Typically in a discovery proceeding in court, a court will frequently require the party asserting privilege to provide a log. So you don't really know the scope of what the request might produce or what they are claiming is a privilege?
▶ 1:16:05Mr. Barofsky: I don't know about the documents that have been withheld but they have rejected 30,000 pages of documents, so I have a sense of what the topics are, and the topics appear to be very relevant. I list them in my written testimony.
▶ 1:16:24Mr. Barofsky: It includes information about safety deposit box from the world war ii era listing german clients, credit suisse's involvement in looted arts, transactions, investments and credit businesses with german entities under the nazis. Correspondence with the commission, the investigative body. So it appears just from these redacted documents that we are talking about things that are very core into the heart of our investigation.
▶ 1:16:51Sen. Cornyn: What I'm trying to understand, Mr. karofsky, I know that when ubs acquired credit suisse in 2023, you probably did not know exactly what you were getting into with regard to this current matter, but I guess what I am trying to understand is, who owns the privilege? This it ubs, the successor to credit suisse?
▶ 1:17:21Sen. Cornyn: Because ordinarily privileges can be waived. Maybe I am missing something here. Maybe Ms. levi or someone can remind us.
▶ 1:17:32Ms. Levi: Thank you, senator. Ubs owns the privilege, and you are absolutely right that it can be waived. We are put into a very --
▶ 1:17:42Sen. Cornyn: Why doesn't ubs waive the privilege?
▶ 1:17:45Ms. Levi: We don't waive the privilege on those specific documents because we have an active threat of litigation exactly on that subject matter from some here and others.
▶ 1:17:58Sen. Cornyn: You are worried you might be sued?
▶ 1:18:00Ms. Levi: We are worried to be sued since we have received threats of that. We are in a very difficult situation. We are in between. We have embraced the review. That is why we have rehired Mr. barofsky. And as has been mentioned, provided unfettered access to documents.
▶ 1:18:26Ms. Levi: Because we thought exactly as has been said also by rabbi cooper, we believe bringing to light this information is extremely important. That will help also future generations to know what has happened, to avoid this from happening again. That is what we are all trying to do. But at the same time, if the same organization threatens us of litigation, we are put in a very difficult situation.
▶ 1:18:50Sen. Cornyn: Who is threatening litigation? The simon wiesenthal center?
▶ 1:18:55Ms. Levi: That is correct.
▶ 1:18:57Sen. Cornyn: About you waving the privilege of releasing the documents.
▶ 1:19:00Ms. Levi: About the agreement.
▶ 1:19:02Sen. Cornyn: It seems to me the simon wiesenthal center wants that information, and you are saying they sue you for releasing?
▶ 1:19:11Ms. Levi: Ms. levi: that is
▶ 1:19:12Correct -- Ms. Levi: That is correct. That is why we are seeking clarification on the settlement agreement. And then once we have that clarification, assuming our interpretation of the settlement agreement is the correct one, we will be more than happy to release those documents and for Mr. barofsky to complete his review.
▶ 1:19:35Sen. Cornyn: Mr. chairman, could I ask rabbi cooper to comment on that briefly? Do you intend to sue if they don't release the documents you would like to see?
▶ 1:19:45Mr. Cooper: Senator, in two weeks we will have a jewish holiday, and it is the one day in our calendar year where we drink enough so we cannot tell the difference between the good guys and the bad guys. I can tell you I am a rabbi and have good lawyers behind me. They brought us before the court years ago. We are still there. We have asked them to stop many times. They want.
▶ 1:20:10Mr. Cooper: So I would be thrilled today, and I think everyone here would be, if the bank is ready to confirm on the record that it is not pursuing or will not pursue any legal action against the wiesenthal center. So, of course, senator, you are 100% right. If the information is released, there is no basis for litigation. We are after the truth.
▶ 1:20:31Sen. Cornyn: Thank you.
▶ 1:20:32Chair Grassley: Before senator whitehouse, without objection, I would like to introduce into the record, february 27, last year's letter I sent to the president of argentina. In this letter, I requested argentina archival records related to nazis. I think the president -- I thank the president for his commitment to this effort.
▶ 1:21:03Chair Grassley: The president has made public substantial archival evidence that were previously unreleased or classified. Senator whitehouse.
▶ 1:21:12Sen. Whitehouse: Thanks very much, chairman. Let me -- I'm not sure if Mr. barofsky -- december 17, 2024, the letter to us is already in the record. If it is not, let me ask that letter be put into the record with unanimous consent. Thank you. It has important information in it and want to be sure it is part of the record.
▶ 1:21:40Sen. Whitehouse: Of the proceeding -- the record of the proceeding. The document I put into the record earlier, I just want to ask Mr. barofsky, are you comfortable with that letter? Or lawyer to lawyer, are there loopholes and weasel words and escape hatches and things like that in it that we should try to clear up?
▶ 1:22:09Mr. Barofsky: For me, senator, the engagement letter clearly sets forth the operations of the bank to cooperate, and that letter was entered into after that letter.
▶ 1:22:23Mr. Barofsky: Under the terms of that letter, just to be clear, it requires ubs to produce all relevant documents. But it also includes several protections, including protections against claims of waiver of privilege. So you have to remember the whole thing was set up so that ubs, or at the time credit suisse, would not be vulnerable to claims of waiver.
▶ 1:22:46Mr. Barofsky: And that is why if you look in our december 2024 letter that you just referenced, we actually make reference there to one of these documents from credit suisse's U.S. counsel in the 1990's litigation to the bank. And that was disclosed with the consent of ubs.
▶ 1:23:05Mr. Barofsky: We had been receiving these types of documents really up until november under the terms of this engagement letter, which is really broad and what it enables us to have access to, including privileged documents.
▶ 1:23:17Sen. Whitehouse: Just to be clear to our bank witnesses about the privilege, privilege assertions, you are the party for whom that privileges -- for whom the privileges are being asserted. There is no third party involved. You are not assuming someone else's privileges. This is the bank's.
▶ 1:23:45Sen. Whitehouse: And under the circumstances, if it was prudent for you, you are in permission to waive those privileges. There is no third party to be involved.
▶ 1:23:53Ms. Levi: That is correct. Based on the engagement letter that Mr. barofsky has mentioned, we have a different reading. There are specific provisions that specifically refer to the privilege and that the bank can assert privilege.
▶ 1:24:17Ms. Levi: We are mainly concerned of a third party claiming the weave -- the privilege has been waived if you can provide it to Mr. barofsky.
▶ 1:24:28Sen. Whitehouse: It seems to me that there is room here for an order from a court saying because of these unusual circumstances, the documents can be shown to Mr. barofsky, who is under contract to the bank, and to a certain degree is its agent in this respect and perhaps also to the wiesenthal center without the privilege being waived generally.
▶ 1:24:58Sen. Whitehouse: There are common rules that waived for one is waived for all and there may be a workaround here anyway. Good luck to you because it seems like an unnecessary quarrel that is tainting both Mr. barofsky's ability to proceed and the reputation of the bank, which I think wants to be seen as cooperative in good faith. I will just leave it at that. Back to you, Mr. barofsky.
▶ 1:25:23Sen. Whitehouse: Your testimony, you discussed new findings related to credit suisse's role supporting the nazi rat lines. Can you elaborate on what you found now that you have two and a half minutes?
▶ 1:25:35Mr. Barofsky: Sure, I would be happy to. So, a lot of the work that we do, as I mentioned before, as we find scraps of paper in the credit suisse archive. And then it is our role to fill out the context.
▶ 1:25:51Mr. Barofsky: What we do is we are very blessed to have on our team as funded by ubs, which we have the greatest appreciation for, is a remarkable group of historians who are the world's leading experts in having studied the rat lines. What we do is we take the records we have been able to find in the credit suisse archives.
▶ 1:26:15Mr. Barofsky: That includes documents indicating credit suisse was the landlord for something called the argentine immigration office, which was the ratli ne run out of switzerland, and it shows many of the key leaders -- sorry, many of the key participants and server leaders of this ratline also had accounts at credit suisse during this relevant time, so we take that and match it up with some of those historical documents.
▶ 1:26:46Mr. Barofsky: For example, evidence the argentine government sent over a million swiss francs, so that is worth about 17 million swiss francs in today's currency over to individuals who are running this wraplin -- ratline for the purpose of funding the illegal activity taking place there. And they were able to see how many of the key players in the ratline were doing. There is information that shows they had a bribery account.
▶ 1:27:16Mr. Barofsky: They were bribing french and swiss officials. These argentines who were living in switzerland would work with individual nazis, get them across the border, intervened when they got arrested in order to spring them free so they could get to argentina and to safety. Documents that show how this line was not just in switzerland, but went all the way down to italy where they would get smuggled onto boats and shipped to argentina.
▶ 1:27:48Mr. Barofsky: The constant in this again is in order for this one million swiss francs, which we think is an undercount of the total money that was sent over, the ability to execute the ratline, there had to be banking relationships, a place to put the money, to withdraw the money, so we are filling in, and by we I really mean my historians are filling in a gap of something that has been studied extraordinarily over the course of the years, but this was always one of the missing questions.
▶ 1:28:19Mr. Barofsky: How did it work from a financial side? As we continue in this investigation, we are helping to answer one of history's unanswered questions about this massive smuggling operation.
▶ 1:28:29Sen. Whitehouse: Godspeed.
▶ 1:28:31Mr. Barofsky: Thank you.
▶ 1:28:32Sen. Whitehouse: Thank you, chairman.
▶ 1:28:34Chair Grassley: Senator kennedy.
▶ 1:28:36Sen. Kennedy: Thank you, Mr. chairman. Mr. karofsky, you are a senior executive at ubs. Is that correct?
▶ 1:28:48Mr. Karofsky: Yes, senator.
▶ 1:28:50Sen. Kennedy: And several years ago, ubs bought credit suisse, is that correct?
▶ 1:28:57Mr. Karofsky: Yes, senator.
▶ 1:28:59Sen. Kennedy: So ubs assumed credit suisse's assets and liabilities.
▶ 1:29:04Mr. Karofsky: Yes, senator.
▶ 1:29:05Sen. Kennedy: Can we agree that when the nazis would conquer a country during world war ii that the nazis would take the people's money? Is that correct?
▶ 1:29:18Mr. Karofsky: I am not sure what you mean by that, senator.
▶ 1:29:21Sen. Kennedy: Sure, you know what I mean. They took people's money, didn't they?
▶ 1:29:28Mr. Karofsky: Yes, senator.
▶ 1:29:30Sen. Kennedy: That includes the money of jewish people. Is that correct?
▶ 1:29:34Mr. Karofsky: Yes, senator.
▶ 1:29:35Sen. Kennedy: The nazis not only took their money, they took the hair from jewish people in their teeth and sold them. Didn't they?
▶ 1:29:46Mr. Karofsky: Yes, senator.
▶ 1:29:50Sen. Kennedy: And they took jewish peoples labor.
▶ 1:29:51Mr. Karofsky: Yes, senator.
▶ 1:29:52Sen. Kennedy: And ultimately they took the lives of many jewish people.
▶ 1:29:56Mr. Karofsky: They did, senator.
▶ 1:29:57Sen. Kennedy: The nazis all of this money and put some of it in credit suisse bank. Didn't they?
▶ 1:30:03Mr. Karofsky: They did, senator.
▶ 1:30:07Sen. Kennedy: Why did credit suisse take this money?
▶ 1:30:09Mr. Karofsky: Thank you for that question, senator. Ubs and credit suisse's conduct, behavior during world war ii was terrible and shameful.
▶ 1:30:21Sen. Kennedy: Why did credit suisse take this money?
▶ 1:30:24Mr. Karofsky: They took the money to presumably profit from it at that time.
▶ 1:30:30Sen. Kennedy: Yet, credit suisse took the money because they wanted to make money off of it. Right?
▶ 1:30:36Mr. Karofsky: It seems so, senator.
▶ 1:30:38Sen. Kennedy: Not only did credit suisse take this money, but credit suisse also helped many of their customers, nazis, escape after germany lost the war. Isn't that true?
▶ 1:30:57Mr. Karofsky: Through the ratlines, yes, senator.
▶ 1:31:01Sen. Kennedy: Ratlines. They call them ratlines. Now, some in the jewish community pointed this out to credit suisse. And credit suisse decided to hire Mr. barofsky. Is that right?
▶ 1:31:16Mr. Karofsky: Yes, senator.
▶ 1:31:18Sen. Kennedy: And Mr. barofsky did his job, didn't he?
▶ 1:31:24Mr. Karofsky: He has, senator.
▶ 1:31:27Sen. Kennedy: In fact, he did his job so well that credit suisse fired him. Isn't that right?
▶ 1:31:30Mr. Karofsky: Senator, I was not part of those decisions.
▶ 1:31:33Sen. Kennedy: Are you saying he did a bad job?
▶ 1:31:36Mr. Karofsky: We are grateful for rehiring Mr. barofsky, and he has done tremendous work.
▶ 1:31:42Sen. Kennedy: Come on, Mr. karofsky. Let's be honest here. You are under oath. They fired Mr. barofsky, they meaning credit suisse, which you now own, because he was doing his job, didn't they?
▶ 1:31:56Mr. Karofsky: I was not part of credit suisse at the time, senator.
▶ 1:31:59Sen. Kennedy: You believe in the tooth fairy?
▶ 1:32:02Mr. Karofsky: I do not anymore.
▶ 1:32:04Sen. Kennedy: You believe in the easter bunny?
▶ 1:32:07Mr. Karofsky: Not anymore, senator.
▶ 1:32:09Sen. Kennedy: Do you believe that jimmy hoffa died of natural causes?
▶ 1:32:13Mr. Karofsky: I don't have a comment on that.
▶ 1:32:15Sen. Kennedy: Of course they fired him because he was doing his job. And then ubs bought credit suisse. And ubs, kudos to you, you rehired Mr. barofsky. Is that right?
▶ 1:32:28Mr. Karofsky: We did.
▶ 1:32:30Sen. Kennedy: And he is rocking along doing his job. When he gets to close again -- too close again, and ubs has decided to take some of the relevant documents, slick actually, and give it to his lawyer and claim attorney-client privilege.
▶ 1:32:53Mr. Karofsky: With due respect, senator, this is our own investigation which is supervised by Mr. barofsky. And we have provided cooperation.
▶ 1:33:08Sen. Kennedy: You did not take these documents and give them to your lawyer because you wanted your lawyer to disclose them at a press conference, did you? You gave these documents to your lawyer to hide them, didn't you?
▶ 1:33:13Ms. Levi: Maybe I can --
▶ 1:33:15Sen. Kennedy: I am not talking to you. I am talking to Mr. karofsky.
▶ 1:33:18Mr. Karofsky: Not to hide them, senator.
▶ 1:33:21Sen. Kennedy: Why did you do it, then? Out of the goodness of your heart? In the interest of justice?
▶ 1:33:28Mr. Karofsky: As my colleague mentioned, we have been fully cooperative.
▶ 1:33:32Sen. Kennedy: You have not turned over these documents.
▶ 1:33:35Mr. Karofsky: We have not turned over the documents, senator, because of the threat of litigation.
▶ 1:33:39Sen. Kennedy: Ah, the threat of litigation. Oh, I see. Now, credit suisse, before you acquired them, paid $1.25 billion I think in damages to the jewish people. Is that right?
▶ 1:33:58Mr. Karofsky: That was a collective settlement from swiss banks.
▶ 1:34:01Sen. Kennedy: But that does not account for any new evidence of crimes. Does it?
▶ 1:34:06Mr. Karofsky: It does, senator. It is for known and unknown claims and the larger portion is for unknown claims.
▶ 1:34:12Sen. Kennedy: So that is what this is about. You don't want to pay any more money, do you?
▶ 1:34:16Sen. Kennedy: The one point --
▶ 1:34:18Mr. Karofsky: The $1.25 billion is for known and unknown claims.
▶ 1:34:25Sen. Kennedy: Paid $1.25 billion and you are not paying a penny more. Is that right?
▶ 1:34:31Mr. Karofsky: So we also paid. It was a collective settlement.
▶ 1:34:34Sen. Kennedy: But your position is you are not paying a penny more. Is that right?
▶ 1:34:39Mr. Karofsky: That is correct, senator. It was accounted for.
▶ 1:34:42Sen. Kennedy: That is what it is still all about, the money.
▶ 1:34:45Mr. Karofsky: The money and the truth, senator.
▶ 1:34:48Sen. Kennedy: It was about the money when your predecessor took the nazi money, and it is about the money now.
▶ 1:34:53Mr. Karofsky: I don't agree with that, senator.
▶ 1:34:56Sen. Kennedy: I see. What could it be about, principle, entity of -- the sanctity of attorney-client privilege? I don't hate anybody but we all have a record. Ubs got caught manipulating the interest rate, didn't it? Had to pay $700 million for manipulating the interest rate. Isn't that correct?
▶ 1:35:25Mr. Karofsky: Amongst other banks. Yes, senator.
▶ 1:35:28Sen. Kennedy: Ubs also got caught hiding the money of 52,000 americans so they would not have to pay taxes. Isn't that correct?
▶ 1:35:37Mr. Karofsky: That was settled.
▶ 1:35:39Sen. Kennedy: You paid $780 million for doing that, didn't you? Isn't that correct?
▶ 1:35:48Mr. Karofsky: I am not sure the exact number, senator.
▶ 1:35:50Sen. Kennedy: I am. Ubs also just in recent history decided to deep bank people whose politics -- debank people whose politics you did not like.
▶ 1:36:01Mr. Karofsky: No, senator.
▶ 1:36:03Sen. Kennedy: Ubs said we will not do business with firearm related companies or oil and gas companies and coal miners and crypto financers, didn't you?
▶ 1:36:15Mr. Karofsky: We provide fair access.
▶ 1:36:17Sen. Kennedy: But ud banked -- you debanked these people, didn't you? How do you. How wonderful that how noble of you -- how noble of you, how wonderful it must be to be more righteous than the rest of us. Here is my advice and I will hush, Mr. chairman. I appreciate your indulgence.
▶ 1:36:42Sen. Kennedy: I don't have anything against the good people at ubs, but the smart play here for you is to release these documents and that Mr. barofsky finish his report and let the chips fall where they may, and then in front of god and country if you owe more money, by god pay it. Because that is what this is about. It is all about the benjamins. It was then, and it is now.
▶ 1:37:12Sen. Kennedy: Thank you, Mr. chairman.
▶ 1:37:18Sen. Schiff: Thank you, Mr. chairman. Thank you for holding this hearing. I want to follow-up on senator kennedy's line of questioning. Mr. barofsky, the information about these ratlines that has come out subsequent to the settlement, was that known to credit suisse at the time of the settlement?
▶ 1:37:40Mr. Karofsky: We believe that Mr. barofsky's findings are great findings. He did great work, and for us, it was new information through the investigation, and we are grateful for the work. We believe in the 1990's it was known about ratlines, senator.
▶ 1:37:58Mr. Karofsky: But the fact that the aio established an office in a credit suisse branch and ai memberso had accounts at credit suisse, and I believe Mr.
▶ 1:38:13Mr. Karofsky: Barofsky also identified including but also outside of the branch ratlines 51 in total names of individuals tied to ratlines that also had accounts at credit suisse.
▶ 1:38:31Sen. Schiff: So, Mr. karofsky, it is your testimony that at the time of the 1990 settlement that folks at credit suisse were unaware that they had participated in helping to finance these ratlines?
▶ 1:38:50Mr. Karofsky: So, I can't speak to what was known at the time when the settlement was being negotiated, which was why the component of the settlement were legal claims accounted for and compensated, which is the first part, and the second part, which was the majority, is for unknown claims that the banks agreed to pay for this moral
▶ 1:39:23Mr. Karofsky: Accountability, understanding that the nature of the settlement encouraged us to continue to look, explore, and investigate.
▶ 1:39:31Sen. Schiff: But that presumes that this was an unknown claim at the time of the settlement. If credit suisse was aware of this, did not disclose it, is it your position that the settlement would still cover that? Or would that, given that the party sitting across the table was not aware of this, wouldn't that be outside of the scope?
▶ 1:39:59Mr. Karofsky: So, we would understand this to be as part of the unknown since it was new information.
▶ 1:40:07Sen. Schiff: But that is presuming it was not known, right? So, Mr. barofsky, have you identified any indication that these accounts were known to people at credit suisse at the time of the settlement? That is that they had facilitated the ratlines.
▶ 1:40:26Mr. Barofsky: Regarding the ratlines, no, we have not seen evidence that this was known at the time of the settlement.
▶ 1:40:33Sen. Schiff: And is it your view, Mr. barofsky, if this or other claims were known to credit suisse at the time that it would be outside the scope of the settlement?
▶ 1:40:41Mr. Barofsky: Senator, the settlement is really outside of the scope of my engagement.
▶ 1:40:47Sen. Schiff: Can you order rabbi cooper share with us -- you or rabbi cooper share with us, who were some of the beneficiaries of the ratlines? Some of the more high-profile beneficiaries. The credit suisse financing of these ratlines to get people out of germany.
▶ 1:41:07Mr. Barofsky: That is partly a work in progress. We identified in my written testimony a handful of the nazis who we have confirmed were directly assisted by members of the ratline, but that work is ongoing. This was -- many, many nazis went to argentina. The estimates are hundreds of war criminals made their way from germany to argentina.
▶ 1:41:32Mr. Barofsky: One of the things that we are still working on is were all of the participants of the aio a member of the ratline or some of them? Some of the boldfaced names who have not been directly tied, they did transport from germany into italy and onto argentina, but we have not confirmed their participation in this ratline quite yet.
▶ 1:42:01Sen. Schiff: Rabbi cooper, why argentina? Why did argentina become this mecca for fleeing nazis?
▶ 1:42:09Mr. Cooper: There was a strong german community in argentina even before world war ii. And of course, you had someone who ideologically was very comfortable with what the third reich was involved with. And also, economically benefited from that relationship. But senator schiff, I really want to thank you for raising the question because especially for younger generations, you hear the term ratline.
▶ 1:42:39Mr. Cooper: I think it is important and we do not have for sure the direct connection on specific individuals. We have been able to learn ye t, but we have learned about people in the holocaust, the angel of death in auschwitz responsible for the death of 400,000, for the murder of 400,000 people, including medical experiments.
▶ 1:43:05Mr. Cooper: We are talking about walter, who is the person who invented the portable gas chambers. We are talking about the commandant where 800,000 men and women and jewish children were gassed to death, so the larger names and the smaller names. I can also add that I know if he was alive today he would be so grateful to the chairman and everyone here for this hearing.
▶ 1:43:38Mr. Cooper: These individuals escape justice. Mr. wiesenthal was up against an incredible series of redlines that made it so difficult. He was after one. They got him. Another avoided the bar of justice until the day he died. Ralph and others when they were finally exposed suddenly got sick and passed away in south america.
▶ 1:44:02Mr. Cooper: So, argentina politically speaking, ideologically speaking, in terms of the person running the country with an iron fist was the perfect place. It was also a large country. And some of them left argentina for paraguay and other places in south america at a time when the world was ready to move on from world war ii and were involved in other issues.
▶ 1:44:32Mr. Cooper: Few people like simon wiesenthal had the courage to pursue it, and the reason it was so difficult, you have to lay some of that blame right at the credit suisse officials who facilitated the financing of these activities in the immediate months and years after world war ii.
▶ 1:44:54Sen. Schiff: Chairman, may I ask one last question? Thank you, chairman, and thank you for holding this hearing. Thank you, ranking member durbin. I just want to drill down a little bit further on the settlement and the connotations of that.
▶ 1:45:10Sen. Schiff: Is this an issue about whether there should be further disclosure of other credit suisse activity complicit in the ratlines and any of these transactions with nazis? Is this an issue of disclosure, or is this an issue of compensation? That is, you can take the position that the settlement caps the compensation.
▶ 1:45:43Sen. Schiff: Or you can take the position we are not going to make any further disclosure because of risk compensation. So I am trying to get a sense of what is at issue here. I would imagine this is along the lines of what senator kennedy said. It would be advantageous to make the disclosure and not fight the disclosure.
▶ 1:46:02Sen. Schiff: If you take a position that any subsequent claim made on the basis of the this closures are somehow barred as an issue for a different day, but I welcome you to share any other thought.
▶ 1:46:15Ms. Levi: Thank you very much, senator. I think it is very important to understand the settlement agreement. The settlement agreement in 1999 was an agreement to provide final closure. The parties were well aware that not all information at the time was on the table.
▶ 1:46:40Ms. Levi: The commission at the time was looking for information, completed only in 2002, so it was clear that it was anticipated that new information would have come to light. And I think you got exactly to the right point. The parties at a point agreed to pay a certain amount that was based on specific legal claims. But there was a majority of it that was to cover the unknown. Everything that would have come to light in the future.
▶ 1:47:08Ms. Levi: So, today, the point is exactly that one. The second agreement does not preclude the banks or any other institution to continue to look to the truth -- for the truth, continue to bring to light the information, and this is what this committee is about and where ubs is committed. That is why we are engaged also with Mr. barofsky. We wanted to get this right. It is so important that information comes to light for how bad it can be.
▶ 1:47:39Ms. Levi: It is exactly the purpose. But I cannot be that for every piece of information that comes to light we get under the threat of being litigated because this is new information. Where is the incentive for any financial institution or any other institution to look into the past and bring this information to light?
▶ 1:47:56Sen. Schiff: I think there is a great public policy interest and interest in the bank and making a full historic disclosure. That to me has its own validity separate apart from any liability that attaches to it. I would just encourage to let Mr. barofsky continue to do his work, give him access to everything that is relevant.
▶ 1:48:22Sen. Schiff: If there is a subsequent claim by anyone on the basis of what is discovered, then you deal with it at that time. But I think making the historic record as complete as possible is a virtue in its own right. And thank you, Mr. chairman.
▶ 1:48:41Chair Grassley: Senator cruz, I believe that he is the last person. In the meantime, I will follow up on what senator schiff just said to Mr. karofsky. And I would point to a question that senator durbin asked. Are you going to give the inspector general access to all these records? And all I heard was you are going to try to work it out.
▶ 1:49:10Chair Grassley: I think the good-faith relationship with this committee is that he gets access to these records, and working something out should not begin issue at all. Just a secretion of access to records -- just the access to records. In the meantime, I have to put in record without objection pony one letters in support of today's hearings -- 21 letters in support of today's hearings.
▶ 1:49:41Chair Grassley: These letters are from descendants of holocaust survivors, jewish faith leaders, and global advocates. I think them for their stories -- I thank them for their stories and messages as we look to today's hearing as a way to safeguard the truth. Senator cruz.
▶ 1:50:01Sen. Cruz: Thank you, Mr. chairman. Great people rarely announces -- great evil rarely announces itself all at once. Adventist step-by-step, formalized, in excused until conscious itself is numbed. Before there were gas chambers, there were broken windows.
▶ 1:50:25Sen. Cruz: Before auschwitz, there was -- and before the violence, there was theft. Legalized theft. Bureaucracy I theft -- bureaucracy ties to -- bureaucratized theft.
▶ 1:50:46Sen. Cruz: In present-day terms, $400 billion to $550 billion was stolen from jewish people. As persecution deepened, jewish families sought refuge in swiss banks, believing in the promise of neutrality. That refuge proved elusive. That promise proved hollow.
▶ 1:51:16Sen. Cruz: Accounts vanished. Records dissolved. Then came the cattle cars bound for camps with no return. Economic annihilation was the prerequisite. Mass extermination was the goal.
▶ 1:51:36Sen. Cruz: And in the end, the step-by-step normalization of theft, silence, and complicity culminated in the holocaust. The systematic murder of more than 6 million jewish men, women, and children. But the crime did not end with the war.
▶ 1:52:04Sen. Cruz: For the survivors who returned, what awaited them was appalling. Swiss banks, including predecessors of credit suisse, refused to return stolen assets, allowing billions to simply disappear. After decades of delay, a settlement was reached in the 1990's meant to bring truth, restitution, and closure.
▶ 1:52:36Sen. Cruz: But later investigations revealed vast numbers of nazi linked accounts and records had been withheld. Allowing billions in victims's assets to remain concealed. And now, we confront something even more disturbing.
▶ 1:52:59Sen. Cruz: Ubs, the successor to credit suisse, has gone to court not to disclose what was concealed, but to seek an order that would silence discussion of these crimes by jewish organizations demanding accountability. That is not closure. It is the continuation of the wrongdoing. This time, through the courts.
▶ 1:53:27Sen. Cruz: Miss levi, in relation to the ongoing investigation and credit suisse's role in the holocaust, your team has met with the senate judiciary staff numerous times. Is that correct?
▶ 1:53:39Ms. Levi: That is correct, senator.
▶ 1:53:41Sen. Cruz: And ubs has represented the senate judiciary staff that it will cooperate.
▶ 1:53:46Ms. Levi: That is correct.
▶ 1:53:48Sen. Cruz: Ubs has also represented a senate judiciary staff that it will not sue the simon wiesenthal center for investigating nazi crimes. Is that correct?
▶ 1:53:59Ms. Levi: That is correct. We have no intention to sue the simon wiesenthal center.
▶ 1:54:03Sen. Cruz: As you sit here today, ubs has a motion pending before federal court in new york seeking to enjoin the simon wiesenthal center and over a dozen other jewish organizations in america from ever researching my speaking -- researching, speaking, or publishing any content related to "the holocaust, world war ii, and its prelude and aftermath, victims
▶ 1:54:33Sen. Cruz: Or targets of nazi persecution, and transactions, with or actions of the nazi regime." is that actually correct?
▶ 1:54:45Ms. Levi: Senator, we responded to an invitation from the judge, and that order is a clarification of the same order in the settlement agreement of 19 any nine. Dennis -- agreement of 1999, and that is what we asked. It does not extend. It is not new.
▶ 1:55:06Sen. Cruz: Did you or your office draft the order accompanying that motion that seeks to legally silence 17 major jewish organizations?
▶ 1:55:15Ms. Levi: Senator, this is not to silence organizations. This is a clarification of a settlement agreement that was signed by the same organization in 1999. Yes, I have reviewed that order.
▶ 1:55:30Sen. Cruz: And did you authorize your attorneys to request the order from the judge?
▶ 1:55:38Ms. Levi: That as I said is a clarification of the 1999 settlement agreement to bring to an end the dispute. And actually, we wanted to do it before this hearing exactly for the scope of the previous document. If that order would have been issued by the judge before this hearing we would have been standing here to say the documents that have been the issue with the investigation of Mr. barofsky, we could have provided access.
▶ 1:56:08Sen. Cruz: Does it not strike you as bizarre that ubs is expressing his commitment to pursuing the truth but is actively seeking court orders to silence it?
▶ 1:56:20Ms. Levi: We are not seeking court orders to silence.
▶ 1:56:24Sen. Cruz: You want the court to sign this order?
▶ 1:56:27Ms. Levi: Yes.
▶ 1:56:28Sen. Cruz: So you are seeking the order.
▶ 1:56:30Ms. Levi: We are seeking the order, but the order is just a clarification of a settlement agreement that was signed by the various jewish organizations, including the simon wiesenthal center. It does not extend at all was already agreed by the same organizations.
▶ 1:56:49Sen. Cruz: They were silenced already so there should be silenced going forward. Mr. barofsky, what is your view on the proposed order, and how would its potential issuance affect your investigation into the credit suisse ties to the nazi party?
▶ 1:57:03Mr. Barofsky: I am concerned about the breadth of the order that can potentially inhibit or prevent the simon wiesenthal center from continuing to provide information and being a gateway for information relevant to this investigation. And let me be clear why I say that. This episode in front of the judge was initiated in march of 2023, a letter written in which it laid out a list of lies.
▶ 1:57:33Mr. Barofsky: Lie on top of lie, where it accused me and the simon wiesenthal center by entering into a conspiracy where the center made statements to me that was reflected in one of my reports. That is what started all of this. Let me be very clear how it came to be that I was getting information from the simon wiesenthal center.
▶ 1:57:58Mr. Barofsky: Credit suisse hired me in part to solicit information from the simon wiesenthal center. They were having a dispute. They were not talking to one another. Credit suisse very much wanted to get access to the information that the simon wiesenthal center had about the investigation into the bank's nazi ties, but the simon wiesenthal center did not trust the bank so they brought me in and asked me if I could get that information.
▶ 1:58:27Mr. Barofsky: To be very clear, the idea was I would get that information included in what would be a public report. Sometime in 2021, late-summer when I was having those negotiations with the simon wiesenthal center, credit suisse asked me to meet with one of the signatories of this letter. And they asked me to have a conversation with him because Mr.
▶ 1:58:49Mr. Barofsky: Cohen wanted at that time to go to the judge to try to shut down simon wiesenthal center's speech around these issues. And I had that meeting with him and said to him you cannot do both. It is your choice, your bank. They are your client.
▶ 1:59:08Mr. Barofsky: But if you go to the judge to muzzle the simon wiesenthal center, you cannot possibly asked me to continue to engage in conversations with them in order to get them to give information to me, which I will be including in a public report. At the end of those conversations, I was informed Mr.
▶ 1:59:25Mr. Barofsky: Cohen had agreed with me, that they decided they would not -- they were not going to go to the judge ended instead -- judge and instead would find information about credit suisse's ties to the nazis so I could investigate them and include them in my final report. So, fast-forward.
▶ 1:59:46Mr. Barofsky: Now there is a legal claim being made by the same lawyers who made that decision saying that simon wiesenthal center's communications to me were violations of that settlement. So I am worried. I need the simon wiesenthal center to continue to broker our conversations with the argentinian government to potentially get access to those archives and any other information they uncover as they have been since I started this manner.
▶ 2:00:16Mr. Barofsky: And I am worried if this order is signed, it will inhibit them from doing so, plus they get on the wrong side of the judge.
▶ 2:00:22Sen. Cruz: Michael. With the chairman -- remarkable, with the chairman's indulgence if I could ask another question. Miss levi, has there been an investigation to determine whether it's vaults, custody services, or financing arrangements ever involved art looted from jewish families during the holocaust?
▶ 2:00:44Ms. Levi: I will need to take that back.
▶ 2:00:47Sen. Cruz: Ok. I would ask that you answer that question in writing. We will submit it to you in writing, and I would ask that you answer it in writing. And we will have serious questions on that topic. Thank you, Mr. chairman.
▶ 2:01:00Chair Grassley: Thanks everybody for attending this hearing. Thanks for our panel. The meeting is adjourned. [captioning performed by the national captioning institute, which is responsible for its caption content and accuracy. Visit ncicap.org]