▶ 0:13:55Chair Capito: Thanks to everyone for being here. Hope everyone is staying warm and coping with the elements. I'm not sure if snow removal on the sidewalks is one of D.C.'s best known skills is what my experience is. I haven't fallen yet.
▶ 0:14:18Chair Capito: We will continue our discussion on the need to modernize our federal review and permitting process. I would like to thank the colleagues here with me in particular ranking member whitehouse for their drive to elevate problems in our current permitting regime and work constructively together.
▶ 0:14:40Chair Capito: Over the past year we have all discussed how the existing structure pits the misuse of our laws against american prosperity. We had fruitful discussions but we are a year older. Sometimes it is a never-ending story on permitting, but we will get an end to that story, I hope. We are still seeking common ground on practical, durable solutions.
▶ 0:15:07Chair Capito: If congress can deliver the solutions we will unleash the investment required to unlock american infrastructure, unlock supply of commodities and materials, grow our manufacturing, improve affordability by lowering prices, and create economic opportunity across our country. Without congressional action we will continue to see the pattern over the last two decades.
▶ 0:15:29Chair Capito: Each new administration will reverse the policies of the last, eroding trust of american businesses and workers, and ensuring we cannot plan or build for either the present or the future. This is not just speculation. We have all had committees -- communities we represent impacted by projects that were delayed or outright canceled by new administrations. I know west virginia families experienced this deep disappointment on multiple occasions.
▶ 0:15:58Chair Capito: I say to all of my colleagues today, I know your pain all the way around and I want congress to address it now. Let's remove the politics from permitting once and for all. To do that we need to think creatively. Learn from existing systems failures and craft solutions to align our permitting laws with that that americans want and need, affordability, predictability, and opportunity. We will do so by protecting the air we breathe, the water we drink, and the land we love.
▶ 0:16:29Chair Capito: We know that epw's long tradition of bipartisan legislation is true on tough issues. This is an important reason I joined this committee when I was first elected to the senate over a decade ago and how I approach my role as chairman. I called this hearing with the ranking member with the intent to get us back on the path to fruitful compromise through identifying both the urgent need to act on reform in the scope of priorities we must address.
▶ 0:16:57Chair Capito: Turning to the policies her permitting reform, my priorities remained largely the same. This legislation must be bipartisan to be successful and durable. This legislation must be project neutral. This legislation must create predictability, consistency, and finality in securing a permit. This legislation must bring accountability to every stage of the process.
▶ 0:17:24Chair Capito: This legislation must go beyond nepa to address issues with our core permitting laws and processes. This must include provisions that address judicial review of a fully permitted projects. Finally come this legislation must be written in collaboration with our colleagues on the energy and natural resources committee to address issues within their jurisdiction. We have been working steadily with them.
▶ 0:17:52Chair Capito: I spent the last year listening to the ranking member and democratic colleagues as well list of priorities of the current administration in order to understand what legislative policies would meet each of their stated concerns. I think our goals share more in common than most would admit and there are many sensible compromises that are in the best interests of the american people to unlock our development, grow our economy, increased supply, and decrease prices in our states and communities.
▶ 0:18:21Chair Capito: This demands action now or we are likely to miss this once-in-a-lifetime opportunity. The house acted last month passing bipartisan reforms to nepa and the clean water act. It is now time for the senate to act. We invited these witnesses for two main reasons. They can share with us the pressing need to act this year on reforms and what we will leave on the table if we are unsuccessful.
▶ 0:18:44Chair Capito: If they can share their invaluable perspectives on the most important reforms to truly unleash america's potential and relive the economic pressure americans are facing across the nation. I look forward to making progress with all of you and hearing your insights. Thank you all so much for coming. I will turn it over to ranking member whitehouse for his opening statement.
▶ 0:19:05Sen. Whitehouse: Thank you, madam chair. I appreciate your convening today's hearing, a bipartisan hearing, on permitting reform. Colleagues have heard me repeatedly state that I want a strong, bipartisan permitting reform, and that there is a trust problem with the administration's behavior that would need to be solved.
▶ 0:19:32Sen. Whitehouse: Trump's initial executive order declaring an energy emergency but not defining solar or wind even as energy was a bad, irrational start. We were still willing to work. Then began the unlawful and irrational blockade of offshore wind leading to a stop work order on the empire wind project off new york, quickly lifted after the governor expressed "willingness to move forward on critical pipeline capacity." this all stank, but I remained willing to work on a permitting
▶ 0:20:04Sen. Whitehouse: Bill. In august, stop work trump struck again on a project over 80% complete with 4 billion dollars invested based on suppose and national security concerns.
▶ 0:20:19Sen. Whitehouse: That order was instantly thrown out in court as arbitrary and capricious, in part because the trump administration had been making the opposite arguments about that same project in the same courthouse just weeks earlier.
▶ 0:20:38Sen. Whitehouse: Our new england grid operator warned back then, unpredictable risks and threats to resources that have made significant capital investments, secured necessary permits, and are close to completion will stifle future investments, increase costs to consumers, and undermine the power grid reliability and economy now and in the future. Consumer cost, grid reliability, economic security all put arbitrarily and capriciously at risk.
▶ 0:21:07Sen. Whitehouse: Still, we kept working on permitting negotiations. On land, the interior secretary wrapped solar and wind projects up in red tape with dozens of layers of political review, including a stop at his own desk where things have stopped. Since then, only one solar project has received approval. The U.S.
▶ 0:21:28Sen. Whitehouse: Army corps of engineers and multiple other federal agencies adopted a made up nonsensical energy density metric to prioritize fossil fuel. Still, we kept working on permitting reform. The administration's offshore defeat in court was such a pasting that they did not appeal . That appeals period lapsed in november. Everyone was back to work. We thought the nonsense was over.
▶ 0:21:58Sen. Whitehouse: But no. 30 days later, days before christmas, they dropped a new stop work order on five offshore wind projects, including empire and revolution. The new pretext was national security risks that had supposedly emerged in the past 30 days. That has been reviewed now by four federal judges, and the administration went 0-4. Not one judge believed them.
▶ 0:22:28Sen. Whitehouse: All along the energy and interior secretaries were lying nonstop that these projects would raise costs. That is demonstrably false. Grid operators put these projects before fossil fuel in the generation stack because they are less expensive.
▶ 0:22:46Sen. Whitehouse: Revolution wind by contract will put nine cents per kilowatt hour energy in an $.18 per kilowatt hour grid. Hundreds of consumer cost savings that the administration chose not to deny in court but kept lying in public.
▶ 0:23:10Sen. Whitehouse: When federal judges don't believe executive branch pretext about national security, repeatedly, and cabinet secretaries demonstrably lie, repeatedly, enough is enough. Senator heinrich and I have paused permitting reform negotiations. Let me be clear. We find no fault with senate republicans.
▶ 0:23:35Sen. Whitehouse: Chair o has been an excellent partner, and I'm grateful to her and her team for the quality and tone of the work that has been accomplished. I am grateful to whip barrasso and leader thune for how they have responded. This is not democrat versus republican. This is a versus executive. An age-old drama.
▶ 0:23:59Sen. Whitehouse: In this case with an executive that will not honor its constitutional duty to faithfully execute the law or tell the truth. Make no mistake the trump administration' is lawless, irrational, unpredictable attacks loom over every industry. None of it is good for business. The nonsense must stop. I still want to pass bipartisan senate permitting reform.
▶ 0:24:31Sen. Whitehouse: I know we can expedite the permitting process with sound, bipartisan ideas like frontloading stakeholder engagement and disciplining an executive interagency process run amok. We can add jobs in electrons and reduce emissions and waste, but it makes no sense to pass a bipartisan permitting reform that will be illegally butchered by a lawless executive branch,
▶ 0:25:02Sen. Whitehouse: Vindictively, irrationally, and dishonestly. The responsibility for resuscitating permitting reform rests now upon the executive branch, upon credible confidence that the nonsense will stop. Plenty of powerful interests need electrons. Lots of electrons. And want the low-cost electrons and abundant electrons that clean energy provides.
▶ 0:25:31Sen. Whitehouse: If that is you, you need to direct your efforts towards ending the lawless nonsense from the administration. If you are fossil fuel and you want this lawless nonsense stopped because you could be next, you better tell them so. Proceeding with this bipartisan hearing is our demonstration of hope that the nonsense can be stopped and of trust in our republican colleagues to get to a good bill.
▶ 0:26:04Sen. Whitehouse: A confidence that I hope is not unjustified. I will close once again with my appreciation to the chair and to her staff for the helpful, responsible, honorable way in which they have conducted themselves through all of this. Thank you.
▶ 0:26:18Chair Capito: Thank you, senator whitehouse. We will turn to our witnesses for their opening remarks. Our first witness is brendan bechtel, chairman and ceo testifying on behalf of of the business roundtable. Mr.
▶ 0:26:36Chair Capito: Bechtel is member of the board of directors of the business roundtable and serves as chair of the smart regulation committee and is ceo of bechtel corporation which gave my dad his first job in the late 1930's. And is a fifth generation of the family to lead the company. You are recognized for five minutes for your opening statement.
▶ 0:26:59Mr. Bechtel: Good morning, chairman o, ranking member whitehouse, members of the committee. I'm brendan bechtel, chairman and ceo of one of america's largest engineering and construction firms and one of the largest employers of both union and nonunion craft labor. Over the past two years in the U.S. bechtel has hired more than 28,000 skilled craft professionals. We anticipate hiring at least 10,000 more this year.
▶ 0:27:31Mr. Bechtel: I am here as chair of the smart regulation committee. The business roundtable is an association of more than 200 ceos from company spanning every sector of our economy. Permitting reform is about making america a destination for greater investment, keeping us competitive strengthening domestic energy, protecting the environment, creating good jobs that support our communities.
▶ 0:27:59Mr. Bechtel: They key to achieving this is comprehensive bipartisan permitting reform legislation. Congress and the administration has made real progress towards this goal but there's more to do in the business roundtable is here to help. Every year of delay holds america back. Other countries are building critical infrastructure at speed and scale. Bechtel has seen firsthand what an effective permitting process can do, and we have seen what happens when it doesn't work.
▶ 0:28:27Mr. Bechtel: Let me share a couple of examples from around bechtel's world. First, the western sydney airport, the first green field airport built in australia in three decades. From site designation the final approval, permitting it took less than three years. Three years. We started construction after permits were issued and finished seven months ahead of schedule. Canada and the hydroelectric project creating nearly 700 megawatts of clean power.
▶ 0:28:57Mr. Bechtel: The environmental licensing process took about two point five years. This included extensive consultation with four manitoba first nations who are development partners and engaged from the beginning of the project. Canada's review process moved efficiently through public hearings and regulatory approvals. Now, let's contrast with the united states.
▶ 0:29:21Mr. Bechtel: Last summer, a study by mckinsey found it takes between four and five years for the average investment dollar to get through our federal permitting process. That means that right now as much as 1.5 trillion dollars in potential investments are stalled in the queque waiting for permits across eight key sectors. When permits are issued for major projects, 28% of those are litigated. Delaying those projects for an average of 4.2 years.
▶ 0:29:53Mr. Bechtel: At the end of that delay, 80% of those permits still ultimately stand as issued by the agency. Meanwhile, americans aren't seeing the jobs, the spending, or the growth that these projects would and should be generating. The opportunity costs for our nation is staggering. The unrealized induced gdp impact of these delays come up to $2.4 trillion.
▶ 0:30:22Mr. Bechtel: Equally concerning, our global competitors are advancing critical infrastructure projects faster. China is one of them. Other countries seeking long-term foreign infrastructure partners are taking notice. In strategic sectors like nuclear energy, semiconductor manufacturing, and ai infrastructure, our permitting process could not only jeopardize american economic leadership, but undermine our hard won global influence.
▶ 0:30:52Mr. Bechtel: In september 2020 five, business roundtable released our report, building a prosperous future, with the detailed recommendations for fixing the broken system. The report is included in my submitted testimony. These recommendations provide clarity and transparency. They remove unnecessary overlap and redundancy. They establish more predictable timelines. They make clear that strong environmental protections and efficient permitting are not in conflict.
▶ 0:31:19Mr. Bechtel: I look forward to discussing these policy solutions in more detail today. I am optimistic, because the momentum is real. There is a bipartisan agreement that action is needed. The president has made permitting reform a top priority and congress has shown a real willingness to move forward, and we thank you for the opportunity today talking about it. Business roundtable is ready to work with you on legislation that creates a permitting system that is efficient, predictable, and yield storable results.
▶ 0:31:50Mr. Bechtel: This is our opportunity this year to reassert american industrial leadership and harness the ingenuity that built this country over the last 250 years, including we continue to lead in the world for the next 250. Thank you. I look forward to your questions.
▶ 0:32:07Chair Capito: Next, brent booker, the general president of the laborers' international union of north america. Mr. booker has the distinct honor of having testified twice before this committee, during the 119th congress, and we want to welcome him back again today to share a perspective on these issues from the point of view of labor. Mr. booker, thank you for joining us again.
▶ 0:32:33Mr. Booker: Thank you. Chairman capito, ranking member whitehouse, members of the committee, thank you for the opportunity to appear before you again to discuss permitting reform on the behalf of the more than 530 thousand skilled and dedicated members of the laborers' international union of north america. Li you members are the backbone of america's infrastructure maintaining highways, roads, bridges, tunnels. We construct schools, hospitals, arenas, skyscrapers.
▶ 0:33:01Mr. Booker: We build and support america's energy infrastructure, which includes wind, solar, nuclear, hydro, pipelines. Simply put, liuna builds america and members take pride not only in the work we do but communities we serve. Today, far too much of that work is being stalled, delayed, or canceled altogether. For decades outdated permitting laws have been weaponized to obstruct critical infrastructure.
▶ 0:33:29Mr. Booker: Projects, regardless of size, and take years longer than necessary to receive their approval. For stakeholders, these delays show up as numbers on a spreadsheet. For liuna members, that means another day without a paycheck, without earning health care eligibility, without a pension credit. When these projects are delayed or halted, likelihoods are put on hold.
▶ 0:33:50Mr. Booker: Across the country, particularly in the energy sector, projects that are fully per minute, fully financed, willing to start construction are derailed by england -- by endless litigation. In far too many cases developers now spend more time in court then it would take our members to physically build the project.
▶ 0:34:09Mr. Booker: That is why liuna has supported permitting reform for more than a decade including the house's recently passed speed act addressing some issues on permitting reform, notably proper judicial review timelines. However, while the house was able to advance some aspects of project certainty it was watered down to appease a small group of extremists who don't understand the importance of project certainty. Significant barriers within the permitting process remain unresolved.
▶ 0:34:39Mr. Booker: One of the most persistent is section 401 water quality certification. States should be required to issue a clear yes or no decision within a defined timeframe. If a project meets the standards it should be approved. If it does not, the state should deny the application, explain the deficiencies, and allow the applicant to correct them and reapply. We believe projects can move forward without sacrificing worker safety, community protections, or environmental standards.
▶ 0:35:08Mr. Booker: Any permitting reform must address two glaring failures in our current system. Project certainty at the highest level and energy transmission. What good is permitting generation if we cannot connect power to the grid? Without transmission reform in conjunction to permitting, energy projects, no matter how clean or necessary, will remain stranded. That reality threatens reliability, affordability, and job creation.
▶ 0:35:33Mr. Booker: When I testified before the committee last year, I spoke about project deniers and serial litigators who exploit procedural loopholes to stop construction. Today, the greatest threat to project certainty is not litigation alone. It is the politics being played with our members' jobs. Unfortunately, this administration has eliminated and threatened to eliminate thousands of construction jobs. In some cases, days before christmas.
▶ 0:35:59Mr. Booker: We have seen the canceling of funding from the infrastructure investment and jobs act come the halting of inflation reduction act projects, and use of executive authority to revoke permits from already approved, privately financed infrastructure projects. This is not leadership. This is chaos. These actions raise a fundamental question for the committee. What good is permitting reform if any project, no matter how far along, can be shut down at the stroke of a pin?
▶ 0:36:27Mr. Booker: Nowhere is this more clear than in offshore wind where we have seen the halting of offshore lease sales which have upended the industry and forced projects to withdraw construction plans entirely. In 2020 two, I was proud to have helped negotiate and implement the national offshore wind agreement. This was a historic monumental agreement that would have delivered thousands of high quality union jobs across the country. Now, many of those projects built under that agreement are being halted and terminated.
▶ 0:36:54Mr. Booker: As I said earlier, for our members this is not politics, these are paychecks, health care hours, retirement credits. This issue is bigger than politics. It is about global competitiveness, energy security, ensuring the united states leads, not lags in the future of energy production. All energy production. Most importantly, it is about ensuring that working people have access to middle-class careers, family-sustaining wages, and secure retirements.
▶ 0:37:24Mr. Booker: Liuna urges this committee to seize this moment not for symbolic reform but for real durable permitting reform that allows projects to move forward, protects communities, and keeps americans working. Thank you for the opportunity to testify.
▶ 0:37:38Chair Capito: Next we will hear from dustin meyer, senior vice president of policy, economics, and regulatory affairs for the american petroleum institute. Prior to his promotion to the role in 2023 Mr.
▶ 0:37:57Chair Capito: Meyer led api's global and natural gas markets and innovation, including renewable and differentiated natural gas, hydrogen, and the use of carbon capture and the power sector. You are recognized for your opening statement.
▶ 0:38:16Mr. Meyer: Chair capito, ranking member white house, members of the committee, thank you for the opportunity to testify. I'm the senior vice president of policy, economics, regulatory affairs at the american petroleum institute. I want to start with the basic reality that frames our view on the need for permitting reform. Energy demand is growing and growing faster than our ability to build infrastructure to meet it. Whether you care about affordability, reliability, national security, emissions reductions come the conclusion is the same.
▶ 0:38:46Mr. Meyer: Our country must be able to build big things, but cannot do so because our permitting process is so fundamentally broken. When the infrastructure projects are delayed, constrained, or don't have certainty, costs go up and it is ultimately american consumers and workers who pay the price. That is why comprehensive permitting reform is our industry's top legislative priority, and we are eager to work with both parties across this committee, the rest of the senate, the house of representatives, and the administration to get it done.
▶ 0:39:17Mr. Meyer: The federal permitting process directly affects our industry in many ways, including interstate natural gas pipelines, resource development on federal lands and waters, lng exports, and cross-border infrastructure to name a few. Unfortunately come the last decades have seen numerous examples of permitting processes being weaponized against oil and gas. Canceled pipelines, a pause on ellen g permits, delayed lease sales, and blocked projects on the state level.
▶ 0:39:45Mr. Meyer: Even with minimal eng even with minimal en environmenl impacts remain in limbo for years. Further these obstacles do nothing. They reflect a misguided opposition to many of the structure being billed at all, or assume that restricting oil and gas supplies will somehow eliminate demand or reduce emissions. But it does neither. It merely results in higher prices, more volatility, and crises.
▶ 0:40:12Mr. Meyer: When our industry talks about permitting reform we aren't starting from scratch. Our priorities are long-standing and well defined. First, judicial reform. Litigation is now a primary driver of delay. Venue shopping and open-ended injunctions create uncertainty that no project can withstand. We need clear statutes of limitation, defined statutes of review, limited to directly affected parties, and a default remedy. Second, nepa reform.
▶ 0:40:43Mr. Meyer: Nepa was designed to inform decisions not stall them indefinitely. Routines extend far beyond the federal action a issue producing delay without better environmental outcomes. Review should be focused, timely, and lead to an actual decision. Principals unanimously reaffirmed by the supreme court in seven counties. Congress should codify these principles. Third, the clean water act reform, especially sections 401 and 404.
▶ 0:41:12Mr. Meyer: 401 has been weaponized by states to block major national interstate pipelines delaying billions in investment and driving higher energy costs across entire regions. Review should be limited to direct water quality impacts, procedural delays and gamesmanship should be prohibited, and authority should be strengthened. 404 nationwide permit program is a practical widely used tool.
▶ 0:41:38Mr. Meyer: Api supports house legislation to extend the permit terms to 10 years the codify nationwide permit 12, to clarify that a single permit is needed for linear projects, and to modernize consultation requirements. In addition to these long-standing permitting priorities, api joins a broad coalition and supporting provisions providing greater certainty and durability to permits.
▶ 0:42:01Mr. Meyer: Even after a fully completed environmental review process, our industry has experienced arbitrary permits of suspensions or revocations driven by political or policy shifts. Several of the policy recommendations above foster greater permit durability on their own. But reform should clarify that projects that have completed all required environmental reviews and remain in compliance should not be subject to these unpredictable outcomes.
▶ 0:42:28Mr. Meyer: The need for bold and durable permitting reform is not ideological, and it is not limited to any one industry or technology. Api's recommended route reform to focus discipline to a system that has become paralyzed for the reflect respect for environmental protection, the rule of law, and the need for decisions that indoor. If done correctly it will enable us to build the of the structure of the future. Thank you, and I look forward to your questions.
▶ 0:42:54Chair Capito: Our next witness is abigail ross hopper, she has served as president and ceo of solar energy and sense 2017. She previously served as the administrator of the bureau of ocean energy management during the obama administration and senior energy roles for the state of maryland. This friday is her last day with the organization.
▶ 0:43:21Chair Capito: We want to welcome the organization's interim ceo, who is also here with us today. There he is. Ms. hopper, thank you for spending your last week with us. We are happy to have you and please proceed with your opening statement. Ms. hopper I can't imagine anywhere else I would rather be.
▶ 0:43:48Chair Capito: Thank you chairman capito, ranking member white house, members of the committee for inviting me to testify online now is the moment to address permitting in the united states. As you heard, I am abigail ross hopper the outgoing president and ceo of the solar energy industries association, the national association representing america solar industry. America solar companies are manufacturing and deploying the power we need to keep the lights on and keep prices affordable.
▶ 0:44:17Chair Capito: To ensure reliable grid and put downward pressure on prices, permitting reform is essential. We strongly support efforts. Permitting reform must begin with this basic principle. Permits -- projects that enter the federal permitting process must be allowed to move through that process in good faith and without unfair treatment based on energy source.
▶ 0:44:45Chair Capito: And once a project receives a permit, that permit should be honored. Unfortunately, the federal permitting process has lost credibility regarding solar projects. July 15, 20 25 memorandum of the department of the interior created 68 new layers of red tape. Effectively amounting to a moratorium on solar by requiring political and secretarial level approval for even minor project reviews.
▶ 0:45:11Chair Capito: Many solar applications remain paralyzed inside the agency, leaving developers in the dark about whether their projects will ever be considered. Political roadblocks are engaging 70 gigawatts of solar and 42 gigawatts of battery storage projects on both federal and private land according to the numbers released late monday. These projects represent 43% of all planned new power capacity in the united states.
▶ 0:45:40Chair Capito: We know electricity demand is rising rapidly and without this power and the grit infrastructure to deliver it, electricity prices will continue to rise. In december the house passed the speed act which would modernize nepa to accelerate permitting and permit unnecessary litigation. While reform is necessary the delays on solar projects from nepa litigation are minimal compared to some of my colleagues.
▶ 0:46:05Chair Capito: All the speed act includes a bipartisan provision to protect already permitted projects, we could not support the bill because it didn't provide meaningful assurance that federal agencies will fairly consider solar applications moving forward. Seia is eager to work with congress on a bipartisan basis on permitting reform that unlocks dozens of gigawatts of solar storage and transmission. To achieve this, reforms must include three core principles.
▶ 0:46:32Chair Capito: Number one, ending the federal solar moratorium with statutory protections for existing permits and prohibitions on perspective discriminatory treatment. Two, establishing certainty in reducing timelines through streamlined coordinated reviews. Three, accelerating transmission buildout through stronger planning, permit authority, and grid modernization. The U.S. solar industry has transformed rapidly in recent years.
▶ 0:46:56Chair Capito: In 2025 allow the united states added 17.7 gigawatts of solar module are manufacturing capacity and we now produce every major component of the solar module supply chain here in this country. Demand for solar is incredibly strong with 250 gigawatts of new solar capacity forecast to come online through 2030, but these projects represent billions in private capital that cannot reach final investment decisions without permitting certainty. We all know the united states needs more power.
▶ 0:47:28Chair Capito: Data centers, domestic manufacturing, and ai are among the largest drivers of the energy demand and that power needs to be built now. Solar and storage could meet that timeline, complementing natural gas and nuclear projects that typically take longer to develop and build. We know the united states is experiencing an affordability crisis. The most effective way to address that is through greater buildout of solar and storage. Unsubsidized solar is now the cheapest source of electricity in history and much of the country.
▶ 0:47:58Chair Capito: With no fuel costs solar provides a hedge against natural gas volatility that continues to cause electricity price spikes. The only way to put downward pressure on prices is bring more power online, not less. States with higher levels of deployment of solar and storage like texas are experiencing lower and more stable electricity prices. Streamlining permitting is essential to addressing the energy affordability crisis in american households and businesses are facing.
▶ 0:48:27Chair Capito: Permitting dysfunction directly impacts american workers, as you heard a moment ago. We support hundreds of thousands of jobs across construction, manufacturing, and skilled trades. Uncertainty delays hiring, disrupts workforce planning, and puts domestic manufacturing at risk. We are ready to work with congress on a comprehensive permitting solution, the resources, workforce, and capital already. Permitting is key, the time to act is now.
▶ 0:48:54Chair Capito: Our final witness, we are joined by david terry, president of the national association of state energy officials. Mr. terry is a true expert on the challenges facing our state energy officials. This marks 30 years since he started his first job they're spending the last 17 as the head of the organization.
▶ 0:49:16Chair Capito: -- job at naoseo, spending his last 17 years as the head of the organization.
▶ 0:49:27Mr. Terry: Thank you for the opportunity to testify today. I'm david terry, president of the national association of state energy officials representing all 56 state and territory energy offices across the country dealing with a wide variety of energy issues and a great interest in federal permitting reform. They strongly support reform and environmental review improvements.
▶ 0:49:52Mr. Terry: The national governors association also provided a letter to the community last fall and we also want to agree with and endorse their comments. America's economic growth is both exciting and a huge challenge for the energy industry and states. I think that the opportunity to optimize the grid, fuel systems, energy systems writ large, and expand them is critical for the nation's economic future and our national energy security. Addressing affordability is equally important.
▶ 0:50:21Mr. Terry: We hear that from all of our members across the country, as many of you have. Long and unpredictable federal permitting outcomes makes meeting our energy challenges more expensive and leaves private sector investments and state action stranded and untapped where they could deliver tremendous benefits to the country. Governors and state energy offices recognize the importance of streamlining permitting that they control in their home states and have been working together to address those issues and also address affordability.
▶ 0:50:49Mr. Terry: Naseo recommends durable project neutral approaches to reform. The speed act came out of the natural resources committee is a step forward, however we have concerns that an amendment was added on the floor that may put into question technology neutral and all of the above approaches. I want to stress a few recommendations that naseo would like to put forward. Expansion of categorical exclusions under nepa can speed the environmental review process.
▶ 0:51:17Mr. Terry: In difference to states where the equivalent processes to nepa can also benefit reform efforts. Enhance uproot projects to continue on a technology neutral basis with a strong rebuttable presumption that previous permits is essential. Adequate federal staffing to conduct environmental reviews that are needed are not deemed effective by the courts were seen in affected by the public.
▶ 0:51:42Mr. Terry: Finally, enhance state federal and interstate cooperation should include state energy offices, the environmental protection agency, department of energy, department of interior, and other federal agencies. The state energy offices have an excellent working relationship with the department of energy's office of electricity and the office undertaking energy security measures. They had been working hand in glove 24/7 this past week as we have gone through the recent winter storms. Working with the industry having good outcomes.
▶ 0:52:12Mr. Terry: The recent state coordination among governors on a bipartisan basis with the trump administration, that agreement I think shows great promise. The state energy offices in there's this region were critical in moving the activity forward. Commitment to a bipartisan permitting reform is necessary for your efforts to receive. We stand ready to help and inform the committee and engage with state members to help move this process forward. We applaud the chair and ranking member for your leadership in working together and we are pleased to answer any questions you may have.
▶ 0:52:41Chair Capito: Thank you very much, Mr. terry. Thank all of you for your opening statements. I will kick off of my questions really for the panel. We see a lot of consistency across all segments of what the testimony has been.
▶ 0:52:57Chair Capito: What we have seen in administrations as they come in during the transitional period, depending on what their political priorities might be, we have seen disruptions in the permits that have already been issued, and that is what we are seeing with the rhode island projects and others. So, I think, all of these projects have gone on, whether it is the m.v.p.
▶ 0:53:25Chair Capito: Pipeline or others, have gone through the permitting processes and were already under construction. Some of them in the completion phase. Mr. bechtel, could you briefly address how the lack of uncertainty in the permitting process and the treatment of properly awarded permits during presidential transition periods could hurt your investment planning and in turn consumers and households, economy wide.
▶ 0:53:55Mr. Bechtel: Yes, uncertainty disrupts workforce planning, investment, communities, and families. My colleague and friend Mr. booker spoke about that particularly on the workforce side. Predictability matters for all of these constituents in the process, and I think it's fair to say that rather than any one project this is about how the whole system works. Including what happens after a permit is issued and what happens with litigation.
▶ 0:54:24Mr. Bechtel: Something that brett can speak to as well is these projects, we are typically making investments in training and hiring and partnering with vocational schools, doing housing studies ahead of time to make sure we mitigate impacts to local housing for big projects. That can happen 18-30 six months before a shovel goes in the ground.
▶ 0:54:48Mr. Bechtel: Unpredictability about when we need to get started on that work is a real issue, which is why the prt's primary goals are efficient, predictable, durable result that stands after the permit has been issued.
▶ 0:55:00Chair Capito: Let me ask a quick follow-up. You cited two projects in your opening statement, one in australia and one in canada, you are a worldwide company. Are there any other countries that have to deal with the unpredictability of already permitted projects getting yanked because of political priorities? Does this happen everywhere else or not really?
▶ 0:55:21Mr. Bechtel: I'm trying to think of examples of other countries. I will point out that I deliberately picked up the australian and canada examples because I don't think any of us would say that those are countries that cut corners when it comes to environmental and social protections. I think that they are leading examples that you can achieve efficiency, speed, scale, while really having important community engagement and environmental protections of front process.
▶ 0:55:46Chair Capito: If you could frame the question on the uncertainty, what does this do with the worker? I think you did it when you were here before. I remember quite well your impassioned statements. That means I'm not working. I'm not getting paid.
▶ 0:56:00Mr. Booker: That is the bottom line. It takes time to get the skills you need. Building offshore wind, pipeline, whatever the energy source is, it is actual people who have to build that and have to apply skills to do that. It is our job to partner with our contractor partners to create registered training apprenticeship systems to get the skill sets that are needed to produce a skilled craftsman to build that project safely.
▶ 0:56:27Mr. Booker: When a project is built or is being built, when it is financed, privately or publicly financed, it is permitted, people move. Our workforce is transient in some cases. A lot of the times it is local as well. They will move to that job, move their family, because they know they have a three, for your job to build that infrastructure.
▶ 0:56:49Mr. Booker: To have the whim of someone with a pen in their hand to say I don't like that energy source completely disrupts their life, their livelihood, their family's likelihood.
▶ 0:56:59Chair Capito: Mr. meyer?
▶ 0:57:01Mr. Meyer: Thank you for the question, madam senator. From our industry's perspective, we are eager to deploy billions of dollars in capital to build these major infrastructure projects. We face a real gauntlet to bring them to completion.
▶ 0:57:17Mr. Meyer: Everyone agrees there should be a robust environmental review system, but what really challenges the industry is when you get approval but the approval does not equal finality, or when you are in compliance that does not end litigation. We have a long history of several examples of projects meeting that fate and it complicates our ability to building of a structure in the first place.
▶ 0:57:42Chair Capito: The uncertainty and unpredictability that could possibly come from political priorities, if you load that on top of the judicial review piece , it almost becomes an unbearable load in some cases?
▶ 0:57:56Mr. Meyer: It is a challenge not just for projects going through the process, but it shows the decision even to propose new projects.
▶ 0:58:04Chair Capito: As we heard Mr. bechtel say, two point $4 trillion is ready to be deployed. Ms. hopper.
▶ 0:58:12Ms. Hopper: I will agree with everything my colleague said and add the impact on consumers. Regardless of whether it happens prior to approval or especially if it happens after, those electrons are baked into the grid planning. If those go away we all know what happens. Prices go up because there is a scarcity of a much-needed commodity.
▶ 0:58:42Ms. Hopper: The impact on homeowners come on businesses, on all of us is pretty impactful if these projects are no longer either not approved in the first place or, even more egregiously, permits are pulled.
▶ 0:58:59Mr. Terry: In a couple of ways and agreeing with the other comments, in a state perspective that they are engaged in grid planning, etc. When they look at their resources, natural resources and human resources, and how they can deliver reliable energy in their state from an affordability perspective, the unpredictable nature of federal permitting is essentially a hidden tax. Delays happen.
▶ 0:59:25Mr. Terry: That is true for large organizations, hyper scalars, etc. That we read so much about, but for individual homeowners, farmers, small businesses, consumers, many of whom don't have resources. That hidden tax we don't count, and that is something we are missing in addition to security issues.
▶ 0:59:45Chair Capito: Senator whitehouse.
▶ 0:59:47Sen. Whitehouse: Thank you very much, chairman. Thanks to all of you for being here. Some of the backdrop to this hearing is china, since january of 2022, has added more to its grid than the entire U.S. grid as it exists. So, if we are in a race, it is hard to see how we are winning. If we are in a race, it is probably in clean energy technologies.
▶ 1:00:18Sen. Whitehouse: So, backing out of that race is even more dangerous. This is a vital issue. My friend martin heinrich points out that there are 2.6 terawatts of power out there waiting to come on the grid if we could sort out the permitting and connection issues. So, thank you for the important and unified voice that all of you have brought here as a panel.
▶ 1:00:51Sen. Whitehouse: I want to drill down a little bit and let you know why I think it's so important that we solve the problems of interagency process and of early stakeholder engagement. Interagency process is obviously necessary. They should coordinate.
▶ 1:01:11Sen. Whitehouse: In my view, after watching the executive branch for a long time, the weeds have grown in the garden of interagency process, and it is now a place in the executive branch where incompetence and inertia and indolence go to hide and where turf battles between agencies left unresolved create a lasting squabble that slows down the whole process. We are going to try to clean that up.
▶ 1:01:40Sen. Whitehouse: Front loading stakeholder engagement is, to me, pretty key. We helped get the first offshore on the grid with deep water off of block island. We did it because we started with all of the stakeholders in the room before even a filing. They tried it the other way, going into the boxing ring, saying we will take on anyone who comes. Of course, people kept coming. They went out of business.
▶ 1:02:08Sen. Whitehouse: Vineyard wind started the same way. They started the cape wind model and it got so tangled up they had to swap management, and now it is being run more efficiently and sensibly. Another thing about the rhode island process, the state permitting process for that was conducted so well that I was able to go to the secretary of the interior and say, don't start a new process.
▶ 1:02:40Sen. Whitehouse: Just look at how good of a job the state did. If that is enough, give us a sign off. And she did. So, that's a good example of what you've been talking about about honoring well done state regulation. Last, we all have to start showing up more at the other end of pennsylvania avenue. If you think offshore wind blockading is lawful, ok. Come talk to me and explain why you think that is so.
▶ 1:03:11Sen. Whitehouse: If you think its costs are higher than existing grid costs, that it won't come in low in the generation stack and reduce costs for customers and businesses, tell me that. Make the case, because I don't think that's true and I don't think it is arguable even. If you think solar projects should stall indefinitely on the secretary's desk, one person interagency process delay, come and tell me that and explain your position.
▶ 1:03:39Sen. Whitehouse: But if you don't think those are right, then you have to talk to the administration. That means your organizations. That means your ceos. They've got to show up. They can show up privately, but they've got to show up. Of course, the people with the most urgent need for electrons are the ai data farms folks and they need to start showing up. As you know, they were not here at all when we were trying to protect energy and what I called the billionaires bill.
▶ 1:04:10Sen. Whitehouse: Now they are barely showing up. But they have a big voice and it matters to them having abundant and inexpensive electrons if they are going to succeed in international competition for artificial intelligence. So, I'm delighted that the chair has brought this panel together. It is an extremely wide array of views about many matters.
▶ 1:04:37Sen. Whitehouse: So, the fact that we are hearing such harmony today is very significant to me. But I think it's really important that you understand that I don't think you have a problem in this room. I think your problem is that the other end of pennsylvania avenue, and it's very hard to accept the kind of behavior that is going on now that is patently illegal, repeatedly illegal.
▶ 1:05:07Sen. Whitehouse: Statements are made that are patently false and behavior at the cabinet level of just grabbing permits and installing them, making them sit on the desk. I mean, somehow we have to fix that and move forward. I really look forward to working with all of you with my colleagues on the committee to get that done.
▶ 1:05:30Chair Capito: Senator curtis.
▶ 1:05:35Sen. Curtis: Thank you, chairman. To our witnesses, this is truly impressive. We have business, we have labor, we have traditional energy sources, new energy sources, and the states represented. It could not be clearer that this committee recognizes the immense value of permitting reform. I think it's fair to say everybody in this room agrees that the status quo is just not working.
▶ 1:06:03Sen. Curtis: Projects that are clearly in the public interest are taking years or even decades to move from concept to completion. Not because they failed to meet environmental standards, but because the process itself has become unpredictable, duplicative, and vulnerable to endless delays. That reality has consequences. When energy infrastructure is delayed it affects reliability, portability, and our ability to meet the growing demand.
▶ 1:06:31Sen. Curtis: When housing projects are delayed, families face higher rents, longer commutes, and these are challenges utahans experience every day. Permitting was never meant to be a barrier on its own. It was intended to ensure sound decision-making, public input, and environmental stewardship all within reasonable and transparent timeframe. Too often it delivers none of those outcomes.
▶ 1:06:59Sen. Curtis: There are still elements of the permitting process that require a physical rubberstamp. I have enjoyed working with senator kelly on the e-permit app to digitize permitting approvals. There are many commonsense updates that could provide greater certainty for project developers and the communities they serve. Another critical element of reform is a certainty. I feel strongly that no project should have to worry that it will be halted at the whim of an administration.
▶ 1:07:29Sen. Curtis: We have seen that in 2020 one with keystone xl pipeline, and we see it today with wind projects across the country. It raises questions. How can we expect sustained investment in infrastructure without certainty? I actually believe one of the more critical areas it impacts is rural america, a big part in my state.
▶ 1:07:55Sen. Curtis: We should be on his permitting reform is not about choosing between environmental standards and development. I believe that is a false choice. It is about recognizing a process that drags on indefinitely serves neither. Environmental outcomes are not improved when projects stalled for years without resolution and communities are not helped when needed infrastructure is never built. Streamlining does not mean cutting corners.
▶ 1:08:20Sen. Curtis: It means focusing analysis on what actually matters, coordinating agencies so applications are not bounced from one office to another, and holding the federal government to the same standard of accountability we expect from sponsors of projects. Let me start, Mr. booker, with labor. You have articulated well some of the questions you have been asked about how this impacts you.
▶ 1:08:43Sen. Curtis: I would like to ask in particular the swing you get between administrations, how that impacts planning, training, and of the things you work with retention and recruiting. If you have any expertise, especially in rural america, how we are seeing that impact?
▶ 1:09:02Mr. Booker: I am in a unique position that I negotiated the keystone xl pipeline and offshore wind. I've got --
▶ 1:09:12Chair Capito: So it's your fault? [laughter]
▶ 1:09:17Mr. Booker: I didn't think of it that way. I probably should have kept my mouth shut on that. We shouldn't have energy projects become political. I think that is what the purpose of this committee is. Members when they vote, when they cast their ballot, they do not cast their ballot to lose their job. That happened in 2020 and 2024 and that is stuff we have to get rid of.
▶ 1:09:43Mr. Booker: To your question on rule role and on training, we go out into those communities. I am proud of we meet with those communities, those church leaders, those communities to bring people in. Whether it is the skills to build a pipeline or skills and certifications for offshore wind, we have to identify those, meet with your constituents, meet with our contractor partners, and put them to work through apprenticeship and journeyman training. We have to have predictability.
▶ 1:10:11Mr. Booker: We have to have certainty that these projects, once permitted, are going to be built because it takes a while to build a pipeline, windfarm, or solar farm.
▶ 1:10:21Sen. Curtis: Predictability is key.
▶ 1:10:22Sen. Curtis: Mr. bechtel could you -- the swings come these wide positions that go back and forth, tell us how that has impacted you, investment, and your business.
▶ 1:10:36Mr. Bechtel: Senator curtis, it is an important point that I will frame from a competitiveness perspective abroad and within the united states. Capital is mobile. It will go to wherever uncertainty is lowest. The current system undermines our competitiveness abroad and at home. Of course, in the era of artificial intelligence and the national security implications of winning that race we are basically shooting ourselves in the foot if we cannot build power fast enough to provide the power we need to win that race.
▶ 1:11:07Sen. Curtis: I am out of time but let me make a point. I would love to ask you, but I am out of time Mr. meyer and Ms. hooper, the fact that this impacts price. You talked about consumers, but let's be clear that the consumers are paying a dramatically for this. Mr. terry, also out of time, but if I had more time I would love to explore what we could be doing to give states more authority and more responsibility in this.
▶ 1:11:37Sen. Curtis: As we have additional hearings I would love to explore those topics with you. Thank you.
▶ 1:11:39Chair Capito: Senator blunt rochester.
▶ 1:11:44Sen. Blunt: Rochester thank you, chairman capito and ranking member white house for holding this bipartisan hearing on permitting reform. And thank you to the witness for attending today. This is about our national competitiveness, national security, it is about jobs, and it is about consumers, who cannot afford the high cost of energy today.
▶ 1:12:07Sen. Blunt: As we have heard from my colleagues today, any serious permitting conversation needs to address the trump administration's attack on clean energy from the offshore wind stop orders to the clawback of billions of dollars for clean energy and de-carbonization projects. The assault on clean energy has to end and our energy projects need permitting certainty.
▶ 1:12:34Sen. Blunt: As the second smallest state in the country, delaware ranks last in energy production often. We produce only a fraction of the energy we consume, making my state reliant on outside sources to meet our growing energy demands. Ms. hopper, why is the opportunity to transition to locally produced clean energy, such as solar and wind, so important to a state like mine?
▶ 1:12:59Ms. Hopper: Good morning. It is good to see you. Thank you for that question. It's really important that we have all the tools at our disposal and we can utilize them. Distributed energy, things like solar on someone's home, solar in a community, solar on many of the corporate rooftops, means that there is less electron highway to get from the place where the energy is generated to the person that uses it. Less transmission is needed.
▶ 1:13:29Ms. Hopper: That matters because it is less cost. We all know -- we talked about pgm a moment ago. Those transmission prices and the peak prices are incredibly expensive. Local energy makes a huge difference to the consumer.
▶ 1:13:45Sen. Blunt Rochester: Mr. terry, why is producing its own energy, no matter what the source, crucial to a state?
▶ 1:13:53Mr. Terry: That is a fundamental principle of our office members. They do energy planning around all resources, electricity, fuels, grid, solar, wind, hydropower, etc. The ability for a state to use what is local. I remember working a decade or two ago in iowa, the view of adding to the resources in his state.
▶ 1:14:22Sen. Blunt Rochester: Delaware. We are the second smallest. My staff and I have just heard repeatedly, like we have heard of permitting certainty not only is it crucial that the executive branch not revoke permits following approval but it is important that there are retroactive protections for
▶ 1:14:52Sen. Blunt Rochester: Permit holders. This is a yes or no question. I am going to go down the panel and I hope it is an easy one for all of you. Do you agree regardless of administration, permitting certainty is necessary for leaseholders and those seeking lasers -- leases? >> yes. >> yes. >> yes. >> yes. >> yes.
▶ 1:15:20Sen. Blunt Rochester: Why is certainty for fully permitted projects so important and what are the economic consequences of selective reopens of prior permit approvals?
▶ 1:15:32Ms. Ross Hopper: It is fairly catastrophic. If you look at it both from the investors, the developers who are building it, are represented all along this panel, they have put their capital at risk. They have investors that are awaiting returns. Stopping work or pulling the permit puts all of that in disarray. You think about the consumers.
▶ 1:15:57Ms. Ross Hopper: The people like you and I that are just wanting to turn our lights on when we get home and those electrons are likely no longer to be there. We need to listen to the grid operators who are saying this has a significant impact. Investment decisions get less clear, prices go up, consumers are really out of luck.
▶ 1:16:18Sen. Blunt Rochester: I know you are all aware that delaware is a member of the pjm interconnection. For those who don't know the original transmission organization that has forecasted steep increases in energy demand across the pgm region. A recent american clean power report found without new clean energy projects, energy rates in delaware will increase by as much as 95%. 95% by 2032.
▶ 1:16:49Sen. Blunt Rochester: This report was alarming to me and I am sure it is equally alarming to other states like west virginia that also are poised to see skyrocketing prices. What type of energy efficiency, Mr. terry, what kind of efforts should be included in a permitting package to help alleviate the growing demand?
▶ 1:17:09Mr. Terry: Several pieces come to mind. First of all, technology neutral approach, low cost to reliable -- it is a variety of things. Grid optimization and use efficiency technologies. All of these pieces can come together to bring down costs or that the increased obvious great. Those investments --
▶ 1:17:41Sen. Blunt Rochester: If there any other members that want to add on? Anyone else? I will yield back no time that I have left. [laughter]
▶ 1:17:56Chair Capito: Mr. terry, you if you could put the microphone a little closer to her mouth so we can hear you a little bit better. Senator cramer.
▶ 1:18:07Sen. Cramer: Thank you. One of kramer's convictions as I refuse the notion that every transaction in this town requires a loser. I think you are demonstrating we can have winners all around. Let's hope we as a committee can successfully provide that for you. One of the things that the government does really well, it screws up the alignment of incentives. We have an opportunity to line up all of the incentives for the right thing.
▶ 1:18:37Sen. Cramer: I have to say, Ms. ross hopper, I noticed a little extra emphasis on -- when you referred to unsubsidized energy, solar energy. It is an important point because we care not to talk about other policy, we're here to talk about the permitting process. Whatever the energy sources. Whoever paid for it.
▶ 1:19:06Sen. Cramer: We have dealt with the subsidy side of things previously. I feel good about where we are headed. I'm going to ask a question -- first of all, I want to speak to the clean water act.
▶ 1:19:26Sen. Cramer: Help me understand how the new trump rule to comply with -- how does it affect -- how helpful can that be? I'm just curious about your response.
▶ 1:19:45Mr. Meyer: It is the step in the right direction and something were supportive of but it falls short of what we really need which is a legislative fix to the way under the clean water act has the site -- has been weaponized against interstate natural gas pipelines. It is a step in the right direction but we need a lot more and that is what it is such a high priority for us in permitting reform.
▶ 1:20:10Sen. Cramer: Mr. bechtel, would you add to that?
▶ 1:20:14Mr. Bechtel: It is required for the results to be durable. Executive actions are great, helpful, but they can be --
▶ 1:20:31Sen. Cramer: Iridescent with each generation, every time the supreme court speaks we get closer to something that is durable but important points. Thank you. I want to talk about something that hasn't been talked a lot about that reference partly because it is not all in our jurisdiction. The importance of linear permitting is obvious and certainly electric transmission lines are part of that.
▶ 1:20:56Sen. Cramer: However, there is this other part of the transmission lines that we like -- and my days when I was with the public service commission, the original keystone pipeline through north dakota worked with a lot of your members, Mr. booker, and the company -- we started that process really early. By the way, they were fascinating and the hearings were very full.
▶ 1:21:26Sen. Cramer: What was more interesting was the early part of the process where we went to communities and they laid out the maps and the smart people worked around the room and I will never forget the mayor of park river, north dakota going, "I'm not sure, but I think if you move this pipeline a few miles to the east or west you could avoid the aquifer that provides all the water for our community." smart moved. They fixed it before we had the hearing.
▶ 1:21:53Sen. Cramer: My firm friend said, I never built a pipeline before but it seems to me going through this cory where we get a lot of gravel is not the best idea. Two great brilliant ideas that came from two normal people. Starting earlier, important.
▶ 1:22:15Sen. Cramer: On the electricity, the cost allocation is and is going to continue to be a stumbling block if we don't find some common ground between utilities and ratepayers. We can cite the interest -- infrastructure and permit it I suppose and states after play major role in that. Anybody have a brilliant -- Mr.
▶ 1:22:43Sen. Cramer: Terry, given you obviously have a broad view of this, how we can get there?
▶ 1:22:47Mr. Terry: The cost allocation issue, there clearly needs to be some more flexibility provided to ferc regarding state roles. I don't think there is an easy answer. One of the things we have recommended at naseo on this topic is to make sure we have economic analyses that showed a benefit to the states consumers. Not just great perspective but the overall economic benefit.
▶ 1:23:15Mr. Terry: We think there's something in that process to help inform the decisions, but the state regulators and federal regulators are making.
▶ 1:23:24Sen. Cramer: Thank you.
▶ 1:23:26Chair Capito: Senator padilla
▶ 1:23:29Print Sen. Padilla: Colleagues, I break from time to time, only member of this committee and energy natural resources committee, I see this from all vantage points and agree that can be more important than for the future of our energy availability, reliability, and affordability that securing a permitting reform package that has been talked about not just this year but for years and has eluded us a little bit.
▶ 1:24:01Print Sen. Padilla: The package that came to be in our last session on a bipartisan basis, a starting point for a lot of these conversations, I want to echo my colleague senator whitehouse and his desire to bring something meaningful forward. We have to get past this administration's selective and unilateral cancellation of projects to restore the goodwill and good faith in those conversations.
▶ 1:24:33Print Sen. Padilla: Now, to the witness before us, in july, the interior department issued a memo escalating 68 different project reviews to the secretary level. In effect, once upon a time, routine agency actions requiring the secretary's personal approval. Some examples of what the 68 projects included, things like cable risk assessment, management plans, supplemental environmental reports.
▶ 1:25:06Print Sen. Padilla: Tying a critical generation and storage what is now red tape politics. Questions for Mr. meyer, do you believe we should be reducing the political involvement in agencies energy project permitting reviews or increasing it?
▶ 1:25:20Mr. Meyer: It absolutely makes sense to streamline agency reviews are yet I'm not close enough to the specific issues you're referencing to really comment on it, but I know our industry has routinely advocated to make sure we have streamlined and clarified approach to make sure we can develop resources.
▶ 1:25:39Sen. Padilla: From that perspective, do you think it is helpful for the secretary of the interior to sign off on what most people consider routine reviews on energy projects? Mr. meyer >> I understand the concern but I'm not close enough to that issue to make an educated comment on it. I do understand the concern.
▶ 1:25:56Sen. Padilla: So the cabinet secretary has to approve every step on the permitting process from projects. Is that slow down or expedite the final approvals?
▶ 1:26:04Mr. Meyer: I would refer to other witnesses in terms of understanding the actual impacts on the industries.
▶ 1:26:10Sen. Padilla: A couple of questions of Ms. hopper. The stop work orders that are referenced earlier are effectively stalling over 100 gigawatts of energy projects that could be connected to the help us meet our growing demand for energy. In your testimony, you say the applications are disappearing inside the department of interior and the developers can't even get a clear yes or no.
▶ 1:26:36Sen. Padilla: What is statutory protection that you think you would recommend congress consider to ensure no future administration can similarly stifle critical energy projects?
▶ 1:26:48Ms. Ross Hopper: Thank you for bringing this to everyone's attention because it is having a huge and detrimental impact on the industry and on all of us on rates. Two things. One is clarifying where the level of authority lies as you're putting together permitting package as you said, many of the things july 15 are sort of decisions that can be made at a much lower level. I think clarifying that in legislation would be helpful.
▶ 1:27:18Ms. Ross Hopper: I also think in terms of timelines, we have talked about predictability and consistency. Part of what is happening and what you're describing is that permits go into the box that you submit them and you never hear what is happening, when it might have been, how it might happen, who is making the decision it will happen. That can be clarified with some deadlines and timelines with some accountability.
▶ 1:27:45Ms. Ross Hopper: There has to be some kind of teeth on those or else, you know, the time is it really matter.
▶ 1:27:53Sen. Padilla: Particularly the transportation sector, there was a lot of frustration a year ago with the initial hiring freezes, encouraged layoffs, funding clawbacks, doge. You had one contact one day and there were completely gone the next. I mentioned that is having a similar impact.
▶ 1:28:24Sen. Padilla: Separately, you released a statement regarding the house past speed act. Characterizing it as insufficient and seemed to fall short. Can you explain a little bit more to this committee what you meant by that and what else we can do to improve that predictability that you rely on?
▶ 1:28:42Ms. Ross Hopper: Absolutely. The thing we thought not adequately addressed is what we are talking about. This perspective discriminatory treatment. We heard a lot about the weaponization of the permitting process, and the speed act does not solve that.
▶ 1:29:00Ms. Ross Hopper: It did have some bipartisan with significant holes elements for permits already issued but nothing that really addressed this sort of overreach of inner administration to punish certain atrocity source.
▶ 1:29:15Sen. Padilla: At the end of the day, when this all leads to delays, delays is time, time is money. It is always upon the ratepayers to bear the burden. Thank you.
▶ 1:29:26Chair Capito: Center.
▶ 1:29:31Sen. Husted: Thank you. I appreciate everybody being here today. I was asked the question why does it matter? To me why this matters most is if we are going to have a domestic supply chain of the things essential to our economic and national security, we have got to get to work. Whether that means pharmaceuticals, rare earths, energy, ai -- all of it requires a great deal of new investment in our nation to be able to do that.
▶ 1:30:01Sen. Husted: Anybody in business knows time is money because the longer it takes to do something, the more expensive you make it the more expensive you make it, the more that cost gets transferred to the consumer out of necessity to do that. China is considered an engineering society. I resent we read this and we are considered litigation society. They go much faster than we do.
▶ 1:30:26Sen. Husted: I'm not suggesting we want to be like china because we don't, we want to be responsible, but we also have to compete in global markets. Mr. bechtel, I know you and your company has 10 projects all around the world. You have customers all around the world. I know you have some pretty important projects in my state in ohio.
▶ 1:30:55Sen. Husted: Can you explain to us, because I read the mckinsey study from 2025 said there will be 2.5 trillion dollars in capital on the table because of permitting requirements. Explain to us how important you believe this is for helping america competes.
▶ 1:31:13Mr. Bechtel: Thank you for your support in ohio. Yes, so there is $1.5 trillion in investments currently waiting in the queue for permits. It takes on average four years to five years for every dollar of investment that enters that queue to come out the other side. It doesn't matter if it is a private dollar or public taxpayer dollar.
▶ 1:31:41Mr. Bechtel: If you add that up, we're losing somewhere between $100 billion to $140 billion to unrealized returns. The impact of that is about $2.4 trillion a year. I think it was said earlier really well by senator cramer, this is an everybody wins situation if we can fix it.
▶ 1:32:07Mr. Bechtel: That is efficient, predictable, and allows us to attract investment from around the world.
▶ 1:32:13Sen. Husted: As you're doing projects around the world, particularly the places where having a difficult time competing with, what is the time difference in taking a big project in one of those places versus the united states?
▶ 1:32:29Mr. Bechtel: It varies widely. At any given point in time, we have about 100 projects in 30 countries. I cited some examples earlier in places like australia and canada where there consistently, predictably issuing permits, including robust environmental protections and community consultations inside of two to three years. If we could just cut the current four year to five your time in half, that would unlock a tremendous amount of value which currently is tied up in the system.
▶ 1:33:01Mr. Bechtel: Just to put a finer point on this, the cost of living and cost of goods and services impacts of this, it has been said by others, but permit delays lead to real costs for consumers and taxpayers. If it takes on average four years to five years to get to the permit process, think about over the last four years to five years, instruction costs have on average gone up about 40%.
▶ 1:33:24Mr. Bechtel: So while your projects is waiting, add 40% of the cost of your project and then figure out how you're going to pass that onto the ultimate beneficiaries of the project. It is destroying a ton of investor value, ton of taxpayer value. It is a huge opportunity --
▶ 1:33:47Sen. Husted: 's of the project does not happen because it gets too expensive or the consumer. Mr. booker, you work with the people who build these projects. What would it mean in terms of jobs and quality of life for your members?
▶ 1:33:58Mr. Booker: I wish our members got that 40% raise. They ain't getting 40% raises. The impact of our members is jobs. Their ability to go to work, to give their skills to build a chips plant outside of columbus.
▶ 1:34:17Mr. Booker: When you see that project gets delayed or projects like that get delayed, as we train our people to get there and then they have to sidelines, they don't have health care, they're not getting pension credit, they are not getting a paycheck. We get paid by the hour not the job.
▶ 1:34:33Mr. Booker: It has a huge negative impact with unpredictability and chaos when every owner, every contractor, every developer once predictability and every member that I represent wants to know current job is going to stay safe and they have a place to go on the next job with a bill that infrastructure.
▶ 1:34:52Sen. Husted: What we heard here is what others have said earlier, everybody wins. It is good for america, good for american businesses, good for the american worker and hopefully we will get this done. Thank you.
▶ 1:35:04Chair Capito: Senator alsobrooks.
▶ 1:35:08Sen. Alsobrooks: Thank you. Thank you for holding today's hearing. I want to say thank you as well to all of our witnesses who are here. In maryland, energy projects including solar and wind represent good jobs and work that is critical to meet rapidly growing electricity demand driven by data centers, advanced manufacturing, and electrification across industries.
▶ 1:35:33Sen. Alsobrooks: At the permitting process at local state and federal levels can be cumbersome with lack of certainty around timelines. That uncertainty can impact workers, consumers facing high utility bills, states trying to plan for reliability and affordability are struggling. I believe it is possible to achieve efficiencies without sacrificing critical environmental protections, bipartisan permitting reform legislation only makes sense if they can deliver real certainty.
▶ 1:36:04Sen. Alsobrooks: Both projects already underway and for those in progress. If it will be executed faithfully, without political interference. Our goal is to ensure the federal permitting system works for all types of projects. People and the environment. My first question is for Mr. booker. This is partially covered but in maryland and across the country, infrastructure projects mean union jobs. A slots and good wages.
▶ 1:36:30Sen. Alsobrooks: When the federal government halts fully permitted projects as this administration is done for clean energy projects, workers of the first to feel the impact. What happens to union workers and their families when this administration cancels projects that are fully permitted and ready to build? Mr.
▶ 1:36:46Sen. Alsobrooks: Booker >> I will start with the revolution when a project that started and stopped twice now where our members were on the water working, building offshore wind for revolution wind off the coast of rhode island on december 22 or 23rd they got a stop work order. They did not get a paycheck on december 30. They were sent home. They did not have a job. They had to wait for a federal judge to say you can go back to work that this was improper.
▶ 1:37:12Sen. Alsobrooks: As we all gathered with our friends and families and enjoyed the year in and reflected on the last year, we had members who sat at home wondering if they were going to be able to go back to work. They get paid by the week so imagine that uncertainty, that uneasiness that you would have if you knew -- weren't sure when your next paycheck was going to be.
▶ 1:37:31Sen. Alsobrooks: What about the apprenticeship pipelines in the workforce training and also the ability to bring the next generation into the building trade? Can you speak briefly about how those are impacted as well Mr.
▶ 1:37:43Booker: Our system is on earn while you learn. When you are working, you're graduating each year of your apprenticeship. When you don't have that job, you don't have that opportunity, you are not able to that next level apprenticeship and earn more wages and get the skills you need to continue building this country.
▶ 1:38:03Booker: Any type of cancellation, termination, job delay, uncertainty on existing permitted jobs or the next job just means that pipeline gets bogged down and people don't have the ability to continue earning a living for their family.
▶ 1:38:16Sen. Alsobrooks: Thank you. I want to ask Mr. terry to move quickly to demand and reliability. States like maryland are facing electricity demand growth driven by data centers, advanced manufacturing, electrification. Meeting that demand requires new generation and transmission delivered on predictable timelines.
▶ 1:38:37Sen. Alsobrooks: So how serious is the reliability risk when projects to meet this demand are delayed, starred, or canceled after years -- installed, or canceled after years?
▶ 1:38:48Mr. Terry: Grid planning, energy system planning, estate perspective often is done by our members. When they project out how resources will come online, things that are needed, engagement with utilities and producers and industry, when those plans go awry because of permitting delays whether that is state, federal, or local, it creates a tremendous risk to the system overall. It is very interdependent. I think it is her tremendous concern.
▶ 1:39:18Sen. Alsobrooks: Regarding federal accountability, Ms. ross hopper, my colleagues and I have raised concerns in this committee about the administration's failure to implement laws as congress intended and directed. This has real consequences on the ground and are states that are worth discussing. Ms. ross hopper, what are the consequences for our country's energy systems, consumers and workforce if federal agencies continue to delay, reopen, or cancer projects that already have been approved?
▶ 1:39:47Ms. Ross Hopper: Thank you to my home's editor for that question. -- to my home's editor for that question. I will echo what others have set up a point on a finer cost, reliability is a huge risk especially in weather like today where ♪ ♪ ♪ where ♪ ♪ ♪ ♪ ♪ ♪ where ♪ ♪ -- in addition, prics continue to go up. We are all experiencing that.
▶ 1:40:17Ms. Ross Hopper: I feel it when I open my electricity bill and I know others do as well. When electrons were supposed to be delivered and they are no longer available because we weren't able to finish the project, it's more pressure on the system and prices will go up. It impacts all of us.
▶ 1:40:34Sen. Alsobrooks: Thank you so much.
▶ 1:40:36Chair Capito: Senator boseman.
▶ 1:40:39Sen. Boozman: Thank you for having this very, very important hearing. As always, you are an example of working together, leading us together so we can get a result, which is so very important. Mr. bechtel and Mr. terry, this past weekend, as we all know, we've had winter storm bring ice and snow to arkansas and much of the country.
▶ 1:41:09Sen. Boozman: We are grateful for the preparations of our local utilities and linemen have done a tremendous job not only in arkansas but throughout the country. The department of energy provided relief and allowing the use of backup generators and epa administrator zelda has also made operation flexibility a priority. I think the question is, do you have any recommendations for how the epa can enable more flexibility for backup generation during grid emergencies?
▶ 1:41:41Sen. Boozman: Also, how a comprehensive permitting reform allow for utilities to better prepare for the next emergency? Mr. terry? Mr. terry >> I am happy to respond and commend the lyman come utility workers.
▶ 1:42:00Sen. Boozman: I think with regard to emergency backup generation, I think cooperation between epa, the governor's offices, and energy offices and the department of energy in these emergency situations to make sure those generators come on when they are needed but also make sure they're prepared. I think that his fundament of cooperation. I'm not sure that is a permitting reform item and I can get back to you with more details and suggestions.
▶ 1:42:21Sen. Boozman: Thank you. Mr. terry, with the passage of the speed act and governor center signing energy revelatory reforms into state law, arkansas is emerging as a national leader in common sense permitting reform.
▶ 1:42:42Sen. Boozman: As industries such as technology , lithium, steel, manufacturing, aerospace, defense, and forestry are seeking to set up shop in arkansas or expand existing operations.
▶ 1:42:56Sen. Boozman: How would proposals like the speed act provide regulatory certainty that these projects are viable investments in arkansas and how can federal reforms complement state level efforts to streamline approvals which we just talked about, allowing the energy grid to meet the demands of the future?
▶ 1:43:14Mr. Terry: I think a couple of things. One, the kinds of actions we see at the state level such as arkansas, this does allow investment to come in. The missing component of federal permitting -- the speed act, ensuring that comes out with certainty around timing also certainty around technology or project neutrality I think is important.
▶ 1:43:42Mr. Terry: Lastly, I think that kind of attraction and business you see in arkansas in other states that have taken action, these are once in a generation opportunities. If those businesses go overseas, we lose them forever. I think that is the urgency to this.
▶ 1:43:56Sen. Boozman: Very good. Ms. ross hopper, arkansas is currently seeing major investments in ai and cloud infrastructure, including a multibillion-dollar data center in little rock and west memphis. Arkansas was able to land these investments in part because of reliable, affordable, and all of the above energy supply, including solar.
▶ 1:44:21Sen. Boozman: What steps should be taken to ensure permitting reform remains technology-neutral, encouraging investments in sites like arkansas?
▶ 1:44:32Ms. Ross Hopper: Thank you for that question. You have identified one of the things that is happening all across the country, including arkansas, is those big data centers are looking to find electrons as quickly as they can. Solar is often part of the solution. What can you do here?
▶ 1:44:57Ms. Ross Hopper: You have heard unanimity around technology, neutral agnostic, solutions not weaponizing the permitting system. I think that means that you have clear timelines so that every project regardless of the source of the energy has the same kind of timeline, the same kind of environmental reviews.
▶ 1:45:23Ms. Ross Hopper: They will be different based on the technology but they should be sort of standard and predictable. I think being clear about the certainty and finality of final decisions and final permits is critical. Lastly, making sure whomever is in the white house and the administration does not take the ability to weaponize interagency permitting.
▶ 1:45:52Ms. Ross Hopper: So there is some clarity from this body around where this decision should live.
▶ 1:45:58Sen. Boozman: Thank you.
▶ 1:46:00Chair Capito: Senator markey.
▶ 1:46:03Sen. Markey: Thank you very much. Holding this hearing because project developers want certainty. Well, if you're looking for uncertainty, all you have to do is to look down the road to 1600 pennsylvania avenue.
▶ 1:46:22Sen. Markey: Because since trump took office nearly one year ago, trump's costly lawless and unnecessary war on american clean energy has cost more than 165,000 clean energy jobs. $53 billion in private investment lost. 324 projects across red and blue states killed.
▶ 1:46:49Sen. Markey: Offshore wind has already unleashed billions in investments and created thousands of union jobs across the country. It makes sense for coastal states like massachusetts as well as for supply chain states like texas and louisiana and mississippi, but over the past year, trump has been escalating this increasingly outlandish attack on offshore wind, including cutting off their permitting process for all wind projects on federal lands or water.
▶ 1:47:20Sen. Markey: On december 22, the trump administration took its most unhinged action yet and yanked the permits for five offshore wind projects that are fully permitted and under construction, including off the coast of massachusetts. 800 megawatts. This action fuels rising electricity costs, puts our grid liability at risk, and as Mr.
▶ 1:47:47Sen. Markey: Booker puts so well, since thousands of union workers home without pay. We can't talk about new permitting loss in congress while the truck administration refuses to follow the laws which we already have.
▶ 1:48:05Sen. Markey: If trump and secretary wright and secretary burgum will not do so on their own accord, this administration must be forced to end its punitive treatment through clear legislative text and vocal republican opposition to any of its to violate the law. Down the line, yes or no, do you agree that the trump administration should stop is targeted attacks on wind and solar? Yes or no?
▶ 1:48:35Sen. Markey: >> senator kelly -- markey -- axes become a senator markey, excuse me. Senator markey, rather than commenting on any one specific kind of project, the point for the business roundtable is that it is to be predictable and the permits need to stand issue.
▶ 1:48:58Sen. Markey: But that is not predictable. They were permitted and now they are canceled. Mr. booker, yes or no? >> yes. >> as I mentioned to senator padilla, I'm not close enough to enter an opinion but we are all a the above. >> unequivocally yes. >> yes, for fully permitted projects.
▶ 1:49:23Sen. Markey: We can even get topsy grid briefing on what the security is -- top-secret rating on what the security is. I suspect it is yet to take down the wind turbine so they can bring the aircraft carriers up. They don't want those obstacles. Down the line, permitting reform without project uncertainty is meaningless and right now the call for uncertainty is coming from inside the white house.
▶ 1:49:53Sen. Markey: If republicans want to make permits great again, the trump administration could end this permitting chaos and uncertainty for offshore wind and renewable energy right now. The projects like offshore wind are clean energy projects can be stalled or stopped entirely by the executive branch on a whim. It stands to reason fossil fuel projects can get the same treatment in the future by a democratic administration. But the right has given the left a very good playbook. Mr.
▶ 1:50:21Sen. Markey: Meyer, are you aware some policymakers and environmental organizations are planning for how this administration's restrictive permitting framework to be applied to oil, gas, and pipeline projects in future administration?
▶ 1:50:35Mr. Meyer: We are aware that is part of the conversation.
▶ 1:50:39Sen. Markey: Madam chair, what I would ask is unanimous consent to enter a memo from evergreen action on this issue into the record which shows how the interior department's july 15 memo to block solar and wind projects could be repurposed to block oil, gas, and pipeline projects.
▶ 1:51:03Chair Capito: Without objection, those had been blocked in the past as you know.
▶ 1:51:11Sen. Markey: Is it fair to say the oil and gas industry would not want any white house republican or democrat to require the interior secretary's personal signature for every stage of the project? Mr. meyer: we are supportive of the permits . It is also true that we have had her own difficult experiences across different agencies in previous administration's, so that is why we continue to be in all of our reforms with benefit energy resources equally.
▶ 1:51:41Sen. Markey: Oil above all e= ra, we can see that from venezuela to all of the decisions made by the administration.
▶ 1:51:53Chair Capito: Senator lummis.
▶ 1:51:59Sen. Lummis: Thank you. Mr. markey, we feel your pain. We could take your statement and where you said left we could put right, where right we could put left. He said trump could put biden. We said biden we could put trump. Recent oil and gas, we could put solar and wind.
▶ 1:52:22Sen. Lummis: Under the biden administration, the first -- one of the first things he did was nix the keystone xl pipeline. Just like Mr. booker said, there were union jobs working on that pipeline. There was pipe sitting next to an open trench ready to install.
▶ 1:52:43Sen. Lummis: There were people who lost their jobs on the spot just the way you describe because of what president biden did. And now the converse is happening with some renewable energy types. We are in the same boat now. We have seen a democrat administration under president biden do the same thing that now you are complaining about.
▶ 1:53:14Sen. Lummis: So what we do need is some certainty. And here is what I'm wondering. Here's what I want to talk to the panel about. Is there a difference between a small project --.
▶ 1:53:28Sen. Markey: Biden permitted public land, oil and gas permits faster during his four years and trump did? >> that is not true. Come to alaska. Zero.
▶ 1:53:40Chair Capito: It is senator lummis' time.
▶ 1:53:45Sen. Lummis: During that same time, quarterly oil and gas lease sales on public land were -- put a moratorium on them contrary to federal law. And that the no coal on federal land, which is basically where all of the coal in wyoming comes from, was permitted.
▶ 1:54:08Sen. Lummis: I mean, this is an apples to oranges both sides treating the source of energy exactly the opposite. So here's what I'm wondering. If it is a small scale project, should there be a different permitting process that for an industrial scale project? Let me give you an example.
▶ 1:54:32Sen. Lummis: In my lifetime, I have seen a massive difference in the footprint of oil and gas on the surface of the ground because of horizontal drilling. You used to have to have a lot more surface disturbance to produce the same amount of oil and gas. But when horizontal drilling became a pain, there's is very little surface disturbance. -- became a thing, there is very little surface disturbance.
▶ 1:55:03Sen. Lummis: The scale of these industrial wind projects and the industrial solar projects is massive. They are huge. In a state like wyoming, for example, we recently had a proposal for wind project that covered 48,000 acres.
▶ 1:55:22Sen. Lummis: Even in my big state, this is a massive scale of surface disturbance because they're all of these little roads between every wind turbine and we have had massive scale solar projects. Now, in our very thin topsoil, if you put down these blankets of solar panels where the sun can't shine through, two things happen.
▶ 1:55:50Sen. Lummis: The soil is -- doesn't grow anything so the wind erosion and are tremendously windy state is blowing away what little topsoil we have under a 30 year permitted solar project. And the amount of fire prevention roads that have to be installed around an industrial scale solar project is massive because they tend to catch on fire.
▶ 1:56:21Sen. Lummis: There are environmental consequences that have, I think, in a lot of ways during my lifetime, tipped the scale to where what we need to be looking at in one way is just the scale of the permit. Is it 10 acres or 20 acres or is it 48,000 acres?
▶ 1:56:45Sen. Lummis: And if it is a small scale project in terms of surface disturbance, we should have an expedited permitting process that doesn't go to the level of the secretary of the interior. But if it is an industrial scale project of any kind, whether it is oil and gas or coal or wind or solar, maybe it should rise to the scale of the secretary. Any comments?
▶ 1:57:14Sen. Lummis: [laughter] >> I got a lot of comments, if I can. When it comes -- we are all looking at predictability whether it is large or small, doesn't matter. We should allow for developers to determine as it makes sense to have solar wind farm in your state or any other state, not people sitting around this table to say, picking winners and losers. We are all of the above.
▶ 1:57:39Sen. Lummis: We believe in wind and solar, nuclear, pipeline, natural gas, coal. We believe those energy sources are what we need. We believe in a predictable permitting process that allows not just for energy infrastructure, either. Gateway tunnels, whether or not there project, a tunnel project in new york city is going to be allowed to continue being built where I have 400, 500 600 members.
▶ 1:58:06Sen. Lummis: We have to take politics out of this and let the regulators regulate, keep the politicians out of this and have predictability, get rid of this chaos and create jobs for americans, create jobs for our members and for your constituents.
▶ 1:58:21Sen. Lummis: Well said. I yield back.
▶ 1:58:28Chair Capito: Senator schiff.
▶ 1:58:33Sen. Schiff: Thank you. First of all, thank you for the work you are doing and senator whitehouse on reform. I think we are vitally in need of reform and appreciate all of the person work that is gone into it. I had the same concern that senator whitehouse does with the cancellation of billions of dollars in renewable energy projects in california.
▶ 1:59:01Sen. Schiff: One of them alone, cancellation was expected to support over 220,000 jobs. That is quite devastating. It will be hard I think for us to get a yes on a permitting reform if we think that reform is going to be used in a way that is prejudicial -- either against states or that favors only one source of energy, dubbing fossil fuels, to the expense of all others.
▶ 1:59:32Sen. Schiff: I think it will be necessary to have some restoration confidence that the permitting reform will be used on a unit basis and not the subject of state-by-state discrimination. But let me just turn to what I think is going to really propel an increase in energy costs, and that is that we have all of these data centers coming online.
▶ 2:00:01Sen. Schiff: We are expecting year after year significant increases in energy demand, electricity demand in particular. We have to meet that demand. We are taking a lot of projects that will meet that demand off grid. There are certainly critical issues, for example reducing the queue to get on the grid and to make sure we are pursuing projects in a timely way.
▶ 2:00:26Sen. Schiff: If you're taking whole sources of energy offline at a time of vastly increasing demand, and consumers can't help but see their prices skyrocket and they have already gone up 13%. I welcome your thoughts, both on the need to make sure we can get new projects online more quickly, but also how we really can't be excluding whole sectors of energy when so much of the new energy coming online is renewable.
▶ 2:00:57Sen. Schiff: To be cutting that off in the face of dramatic increased demand is just going to push prices higher. I welcome your thoughts on any of the above.
▶ 2:01:09Ms. Ross Hopper: I could not agree more that speed is of -- is critical and I think the data centers that are demanding more electricity would agree with me that speed is critical. And all of us here represent all of the above, most of the above, particular industries, whatever. We would all agree speed and predict ability matter. Solar and storage are the fastest to build right now.
▶ 2:01:34Ms. Ross Hopper: That is not a political statement, that is a factual statement in terms of our supply chain, how quickly we can get things permitted. And so we should continue to do that. To take that off the table means higher prices.
▶ 2:01:52Sen. Schiff: Some say, that is not reliable, that is not all the time. How would you respond to that argument?
▶ 2:02:00Ms. Ross Hopper: Thank you for asking me because I get that question a lot. Storage is a critical element. That having the ability to store those electrons when the sun is shining so brightly is important and can discharge later. In my testimony, you will see a lovely graph from texas of all places about the impact not only of availability of electrons, but the price of electrons during peak days. It compares 2022 to 2025.
▶ 2:02:32Ms. Ross Hopper: And because it was more solar and storage on the grid in texas, not only was the reliability, but there was also much lower prices during peak time.
▶ 2:02:45Sen. Schiff: And the others? >> demand is growing rapidly so it is a critical question you're going to need all resources. About 43% of U.S. electricity generation comes from natural gas. So we believe strongly that we are going to need a lot more that capacity as well. Not only on the generation side but on the infrastructure side to make sure we can move the gas from where it is produced where it is in demand.
▶ 2:03:12Sen. Schiff: That is a big emphasis of our permitting reform issues as well. >> the mckinsey report studying the potential benefits of permit reform that I include in my testimony makes a compelling point with a lot of very compelling data that better permitting would actually reduce U.S. greenhouse gas emissions significantly and that as part of that, we should not discriminate between energy sources.
▶ 2:03:38Sen. Schiff: What accounts for that? >> it has a lot to do with the fact permit delays carry their own environmental costs with differing projects that in general are going to be reducing pollution, going to be using inputs more efficiently. They will be bringing lunch runs on grade. -- bring electrons on grade. >> the data center, that is important and we will have to figure out together. It takes power to build we cannot build a.
▶ 2:04:08Sen. Schiff: We have just a globally competitive and we need to bring those stakeholders together that you bring the power companies with the data centers with labor with the community to figure out how we do this together so we have whether it is small modular reactors, renewable, gas -- whatever the power source is, we are bringing that power at the same time so we are not raising rates for the ratepayers and were able to stay globally competitive in the data center race. >> ricketts, kelly, sullivan.
▶ 2:04:40Sen. Ricketts: Thank you. I have just a few minutes because I have to get to the floor to preside. I will be brief. Thank you to our witnesses. When I was governor of nebraska, sigma is part of our overall strategy and worked very well with streamlining our process and permitting. We took our construction permits , 110 steps along and cut it down to 22 steps. We were able to cut the time from 198 days down to 65 days.
▶ 2:05:14Sen. Ricketts: There is an opportunity here as well to be able to across -- to streamline what we are doing and permitting in a lot of ways I don't impact any sort of environment standards. Nebraskans from across all industries, especially if you think about construction, transportation, agriculture, have advocated for common sense reform to our permitting process because it does take too long as you highlighted. Process improvements can be continuous. If are not.
▶ 2:05:43Sen. Ricketts: Every single industry benefits from efficient and predictable regulation. Efficient, predict double -- predictable drive down costs and we were talking about greenhouse gas, puts more money back in people's hot it's and how we restore -- people's pockets and how we restore breed in nebraska this looks like timely approvals for roads and utility projects, pipelines and essentials that go into economic growth and infrastructure development.
▶ 2:06:11Sen. Ricketts: We also talked about certainty project of element and I agree with that 100%. It is essential for ensuring -- which are projects completed with the permits. And providing certainty we also need to make sure enforcement of timelines, interagency collaboration -- this is critical as congress takes up this issue. These changes ultimately will save time and taxpayer dollars all while maintaining an environment standards.
▶ 2:06:39Sen. Ricketts: To my colleagues on the other set of the aisle, the keystone problem was canceled in nebraska. I recall been at the front end of this project before I was governor of nebraska, those jobs, good union jobs, some of them were paid over $100 an hour. It got canceled because joe biden canceled it. Predictability. I agree with as well. Sadly, I don't have any time as questions because I have to get to the floor. Thank you all for being here today to help us with this important process.
▶ 2:07:08Sen. Whitehouse: Senator sullivan.
▶ 2:07:11Sen. Sullivan: I want to thank the witnesses here. I think this is one of the most important hearings of the year. Certainly in this committee it is because I think we have a great opportunity as a bipartisan group of witnesses. I want to thank Mr. bechtel and Mr. meyer all you're doing for american energy. I wanted that Mr. booker for all your doing for american energy and alaska energy.
▶ 2:07:35Sen. Sullivan: The laborers in my great state are just essential, building out america, building out alaska. One of my first beds I had as a new U.S. senator -- firstop-eds I had in the hill newspaper I wrote with kelly o'sullivan from the great former, great current president, but all about permitting reform and how important it is energy infrastructure and, number one, jobs, good jobs.
▶ 2:08:06Sen. Sullivan: I'm going to show you something real quick to make the point senator markey because what senator markey was saying, no offense, I am friend with senator markey, is baloney. This is what my state, seven executive orders and executive actions similarly focused on alaska. 70. Similarly focused on my state to shut it down oil, gas, you name it, everything by president biden.
▶ 2:08:34Sen. Sullivan: Alaska was the number one target. You think I killed jobs? Mr. booker, it did, trust me. A lot of your members. And president trump comes in, which is great because I asked him, brister president, going to get rid of by ncos that are crushing my state economy? By the way, killing market energy. Biden was sanctioning alaska more than sanctioned iran and venezuela. That is a fact. President trump says, no, I'm going to unleash alaska.
▶ 2:09:05Sen. Sullivan: They want to get this great executive order trying to reverse all of the biden stuff. I appreciate the president and his team prayed by the way, the one state for senator markey that did you great during biden was new mexico. The senior senator from new mexico, I'm sure got in deb haaland's ear. They got more than half federal drilling permits. Shut down alaska, drill baby drill.
▶ 2:09:36Sen. Sullivan: A little bit of crocodile seals and the other side. -- a little bit of crocodile tears on the other side rate you're getting a little taste. Here is the point. We have a great opportunity to stop this pendulum.
▶ 2:10:13Sen. Sullivan: We need permitting in the law. This is the moment. I think it is a great opportunity for all of us. I think senator whitehouse put it great. Let me ask Mr. booker and Mr. bechtel, you keep talking about certainty timelines. There's a lot of ways to do it. There is litigation certainty. You talk about 28% on projects just by litigation. Mr.
▶ 2:10:41Sen. Sullivan: Booker, you're constantly talking about you need secure timelines that we can agree on. So what are -- when you guys are looking for certainty, what are the top ones you want us to focus on. Mr. booker, if we get her remaining reform in the law -- if we get permitting reform in the law, do you have any doubt that will create more jobs not less jobs? Why don't we start with that question and then to both of you, maybe Mr.
▶ 2:11:09Sen. Sullivan: Meyer as well, the key elements of certainty, what are the top ones? There is judicial reform, litigation reform, staining, federal agencies moving them out on a quicker timeline. Why do you guys think is the key thing? It is important. If a bunch of our building trades and I called for informal meetings a couple of weeks ago to say, what you guys need?
▶ 2:11:37Sen. Sullivan: This is the moment -- I've been working on this since I got her 11 years ago and we have the moment. Let's do it. Mr. booker?
▶ 2:11:46Mr. Booker: The first question is easy, permitting reform will create more jobs. A couple trillion dollars hanging in the balance because of waiting for permits. If we get rid of some of those -- not regulations but streamline and make it easier to get these in a streamlined process, obviously, going to create more jobs.
▶ 2:12:08Mr. Booker: Probably the number one thing for liuna in our members is section 401 water quality certification. To get some certainty around that -- right now the current system just allows that certification to go to the states and depending on the color of the state, the type of the energy depends on whether or not you get a permit or not. Let's get some certainty around that. It was a yes or no. If the answer is no, tell us why so we can reapply. If the answer is yes, then let's go build it.
▶ 2:12:39Mr. Booker: Right now we don't get an answer which means projects are not being built which is why there is $2.5 trillion hanging in the balance of capital ready to be invested in this country.
▶ 2:12:50Sen. Sullivan: What are your priorities?
▶ 2:12:53Mr. Bechtel: The full details in the report I submitted with my testimony. There are four things. The first is redundancy. Get rid of it. We are studying the same environmental impact 3, 4, 5 times across agencies. It is wasteful. Typically you have to go to a state process. The state regulators are creating good data. Can we use that same and not have to create it at different agencies. The second is deadlines.
▶ 2:13:21Mr. Bechtel: There are no consequences for agencies that sit on applications. Solution, 90 days after an eis has been issued, you get a no or default yes. If there is no answer in 90 days from the default should be yes. That is reasonable, achievable, drives accountability. Modernize the process. We are using a 1970's playbook for 21st century infrastructure. We should be using the categorical exclusions.
▶ 2:13:53Mr. Bechtel: Our competitors like china are waiting right now. We should either be -- I know this is something you're passionate about, sir, but litigation. I share the statistics are ready. I talked earlier, average litigation delays 4.2 years. On average, construction costs go up about 40% over those four years. There is a tremendous amount of taxpayer dollars being destroyed as part of that delay. 80% of those times in those cases, the agencies permits stand issued.
▶ 2:14:23Mr. Bechtel: What are we doing here?
▶ 2:14:25Sen. Sullivan: Real quick, Mr. chairman, some of you know one of the biggest gold mines we been trying to get that permitted in alaska, a great opportunity now with a lot of great investors, six years after the epa and army corps issued a clean water 404 permit, six years a group of far left environmentalists sued and now it is in litigation. Can you believe that? It is crazy.
▶ 2:14:53Sen. Sullivan: James callahan, the head of the operating engineer said, nipa has evolved into a edifice capable of destroying project after project and destroying not helping job after job in virtually every sector of the economy. We need to fix it. This is our great bipartisan opportunity to do so. Mr.
▶ 2:15:16Sen. Sullivan: Chairman, I would like to submit for the record this outstanding op-ed in the hill newspaper by terry o'sullivan and dan sullivan many years ago on the need for permitting reform showing the liuna senate agreement on this important issue.
▶ 2:15:34Sen. Whitehouse: Without objection.
▶ 2:15:38Sen. Sullivan: Thank you.
▶ 2:15:39Sen. Whitehouse: That concludes the hearing. On behalf of the chair, needing to go to another commitment -- I hope we think it is a minor good sign that share feels comfortable enough about the ranking member to let me close out the hearing he this is part of the bipartisanship that is alive and well in this committee. On behalf of the chair, let me think all of the witnesses and my colleagues for participating today's hearing.
▶ 2:16:09Sen. Whitehouse: Senators who wish to submit written questions for the record have until 5:00 p.m. On wednesday, february 11 to do so. Note the witnesses responses to those questions are due back to the committee no later than 5:00 p.m. On wednesday, february 25 two weeks later. And will be submitted for the record. With that, this hearing is adjourned.