▶ 0:14:50Chair Wicker: The committee meets today to consider two nominations. We will speak with lieutenant general joshua rudd, nominated to be commander of the cyber command, director of national security agency and commander the central security service. We will consider the nomination of lieutenant general frank donovan to be commander of united states southern command. I will our nominees and their families. I would like to extend gratitude for their continued willingness to serve our nation.
▶ 0:15:18Chair Wicker: Lieutenant general rudd will assume command of an organization that has been without a senate confirmed leader since april of last year. U.S. cyber command is our first and last line of defense in the cyber domain. It is invisible to the american people but every day men and women of cyber command defend the U.S. from attacks by our adversaries. This is not a theoretical threat.
▶ 0:15:46Chair Wicker: This is an ongoing fight occurring right now, even as we speak. Our adversaries intend to move against us in the cyber domain. They are investing in technology that makes their aggression increasingly difficult to detect and defend against and deter. We see the challenge manifesting in the homeland where our infrastructure remains vulnerable to sophisticated attacks.
▶ 0:16:12Chair Wicker: We see a globally where there is a great deal of work to do to foster cyber command for a fight in the indo pacific. This is vital work as general caine made clear in public following the events in venezuela. Our american cyber operators perform their job excellently and kept their fellow servicemembers safe.
▶ 0:16:33Chair Wicker: I look forward to hearing from lieutenant general rudd about how his experiences will inform his plans for cyber command as he takes the helm during this critical time. Lieutenant general donovan has been nominated to serve as the commander of U.S. southern command. His nomination comes as the region experiences a dramatic increase in operational tempo. The threats we face are significant and close to home.
▶ 0:17:01Chair Wicker: South american cartels traffic drugs that killed more than 100,000 americans annually. These networks are not only criminal enterprises but are sophisticated, well armed actors that undermine regional stability, fuel violence and directly harm public safety in american communities. Three of our greatest adversaries, russia, china and iran are coordinating to counter U.S.
▶ 0:17:30Chair Wicker: Commercial, political and security interest in south america. They are also -- they are doing so under our noses. Together they exploit corruption in the partner with authoritarian regimes in the western hemisphere hoping to gain strategic economic success, intelligence footholds and political leverage close to U.S. territory. Across south america, the chinese influence threatens U.S.
▶ 0:18:02Chair Wicker: Interests by controlling critical infrastructure, telecommunication systems and ports. China has used large-scale purchases of critical materials such as copper, oil and lithium to deepen economic dependence and limit U.S. access. China has successfully persuaded multiple countries in the region to switch diplomatic recognition from taiwan to the people's republic of china. This would chip away at taiwan's international standing.
▶ 0:18:33Chair Wicker: Most troubling, china has expanded defense cooperation with arms sales, police training and space and cyber partnerships. All to the detriment of our country. Similarly, russia has deepened security relations with authoritarian regimes in venezuela, nicaragua and cuba.
▶ 0:18:56Chair Wicker: Putin is selling arms, providing military advisers and expanding intelligence operations in exchange for permission to deploy russian military aircraft and naval vessels in the region. Moscow has exploited local corruption to access the global financial system to evade U.S.
▶ 0:19:25Chair Wicker: Sanctions and maintain its brutal campaign against the ukrainian people. Iran has long used hezbollah to help with fundraising, with money laundering and with illicit trafficking. This helps fuel their terrorism operations around the world. We have a lot to talk about today. It is clear our adversaries represent a direct threat to our interests. It is time we restore U.S. primacy in our own neighborhood.
▶ 0:19:54Chair Wicker: I fully support the ongoing efforts of the trump administration to pursue tougher counter drug strategies. I commend our troops for carrying out an almost perfectly executed operation to capture venezuelan president nicolas maduro and cilia flores and bring them to the united states to face justice for narco terrorism and drug trafficking charges.
▶ 0:20:22Chair Wicker: These actions send a clear signal to russia, china and iran and the authoritarian regimes in south america who give them a foothold in our hemisphere. United states is ready, willing and capable of protecting our interests, especially those closest to home.
▶ 0:20:39Chair Wicker: I look forward to hearing from lieutenant general donovan about his plans to lead to southern command in restoring american deterrence and ensuring we have the right blend of military and economic effects across south america and the caribbean. I turned my collie, ranking member reed.
▶ 0:20:58Sen. Reed: Thank you very much, Mr. chairman. Let me welcome general donovan and general rudd. Thank you for your distinguished service to the nation. I want to thank you for assuming these critical jobs that are very, very difficult -- at a very difficult moment. Let me extend my appreciation to your families who have been with you every step of the way and will continue to support you in these difficult tasks.
▶ 0:21:28Sen. Reed: I think we have to start first with addressing the unusual conditions around your nominations. General donovan, your predecessor, admiral halsey, served as commander of southcom for one year before his resignation.
▶ 0:21:48Sen. Reed: General rudd, your predecessor served as commander of cybercom for less than two years before he was fired by president trump for no apparent reason other than the reported urgings of a right wing conspiracy theorist. In less than one year in office, president trump and secretary hegseth have fired or pushed into early retirement more than a dozen three and four star generals and admirals.
▶ 0:22:16Sen. Reed: In addition to hundreds, if not thousands of military service members who have been pushed out for dubious reasons. I would like to take a moment at this time to salute admiral halsey and general hawk who each served this nation honorably for three and a half decades and leather filler sailors, soldiers, airmen, marines and guardians with dedication and skill. General donovan, if confirmed as the commander of U.S.
▶ 0:22:43Sen. Reed: Southern command you will be placed in a challenging situation. Over the past six months, the trump administration has surged massive military force into the southcom area, including the uss gerald ford carrier strike group, the iwo jima amphibious ready group, the 22nd marine expeditionary unit, attack submarines, poseidon aircraft, the aegis destroyers, and fleets of fighter aircraft among many
▶ 0:23:14Sen. Reed: Other platforms. The administration claimed that the force was intended for its narco trafficking boat strike campaign which has killed 125 people in the caribbean and pacific. However, as my colleagues and I mourn for the beginning, it appeared the buildup was intended eventually for some expedition into venezuela. That buildup culminated with the military raid caracas two weeks ago. The operation was perfectly executed.
▶ 0:23:45Sen. Reed: A true testament to american military capability. Every american should be proud of our service members and glad that nicolas maduro, a brutal dictator who destroyed his country, is gone. But military capability is not the same as strategic wisdom. The aftermath of this operation is still very uncertain and could have enormous impacts on the region and the united states.
▶ 0:24:09Sen. Reed: It is unclear if military attacks on narco trafficking boats will continue or if the sole focus will be on interdicting tankers carrying venezuelan oil. There is also no clear answer on how long this enormous buildup of U.S. military assets will remain in the caribbean. Finally, I have seen no credible contingency plans for the possible collapse of the venezuelan government and the violence and potential american military involvement that would follow such a collapse.
▶ 0:24:42Sen. Reed: General donovan, if confirmed, you will need american forces in this tenuous environment. I'm interested in how you plan to approach the immediate issues facing southcom. Southcom has faced resource constraints with growing competition from china and russia, nations that have gained influence through investments in strategic locations throughout south america.
▶ 0:25:05Sen. Reed: Southcom now has an enormous set of resources but they do not seem to be postured for threats from peer competitors. I would like to know how you would intend to manage this influx of assets, whether you believe they remain available, and if you believe they should be partial to counter narco trafficking or the growing influence from china and russia in the region. General rudd, you are nominated to be director of the national security agency.
▶ 0:25:36Sen. Reed: I would note the committee has waited nine months for your nomination and this hearing. The men and women of cybercom and the nsa are the finest in the world and what they do. I want to commend them despite his uncertainty. General, you lead a distinguished career as a special forces officer and I thank you for that. Your background does not include expertise in cyber operations or signals intelligence, areas that are essential to this dual command.
▶ 0:26:07Sen. Reed: If confirmed, you would be at a critical moment as we evolve the cyber force under cybercom 2.0, while entering vulnerability with china. I would like to know what exposure you have had to cyber tools or signals intelligence during your time at socom and endopacom.
▶ 0:26:30Sen. Reed: Over the last decade there has been a recurring debate over whether to sustain the dual packed arrangement whereby the commander of cyber com also is the director of the nsa. Independent expert panels in this committee generally have concluded the dual hat arrangement should be sustained. I would welcome your thoughts on this issue. Again, thank you for your service and your willingness to step forward.
▶ 0:26:56Sen. Reed: Throughout your careers you have demonstrated the character and courage that is essential to leading. I know you will continue to demonstrate that character and courage. Thank you, Mr. chairman.
▶ 0:27:05Chair Wicker: Now lieutenant general rudd, your opening statement sir.
▶ 0:27:11Lt. Gen. Rudd: Chairman wicker, ranking member reed, distinguished members of the committee, I'm deeply honored and humbled to appear before you as a nominee for commander of U.S. cyber command, director of the national security agency, chief central security service. I want to thank president trump, secretary hegseth, the chief of staff of the army for the nomination and their trust in me to lead this critical role in our national security apparatus.
▶ 0:27:40Lt. Gen. Rudd: I am honored to be alongside my friend and fellow warrior leader, lieutenant general frank donovan. I am the grandson of members of the greatest generation, both grandfathers serving during world war ii. I was raised by a single mother who I knew was watching today south carolina. My mother instilled the values of faith, family, strength, courage and hard work, and it was an upbringing that planted the seeds which led to a life of service and the relent in his pursuit of excellence in everything I do.
▶ 0:28:12Lt. Gen. Rudd: I commissioned in the army through rotc at furman university where I met my lovely bride. She has been with me and supported me in this adventure since the beginning. Ansley, I am eternally grateful for your love, strength and support over the last three and a half decades. You are and always have been the rock upon which our family find stability and resilience. Our two daughters hayden and hollis are here with us today.
▶ 0:28:39Lt. Gen. Rudd: Hayden is a congressional fellow with the senate committee for commerce, science and transportation. Hollis is here from texas where she a business professional working for a company that provides support to our service members, families and veterans. Thank you both for all the sacrifices you have made over the course of your upbringing. You both inspire me to continue to serve and defend our american way of life.
▶ 0:29:03Lt. Gen. Rudd: I would like to recognize the selfless men and women I have served with throughout my career, both in uniform and civilian. And of course, an incredible noncommissioned officer corps. Most importantly, I would like to remember the many who made the ultimate sacrifice for our great nation. My journey as an army officer started as a logistician and the captain I transitioned to special forces.
▶ 0:29:30Lt. Gen. Rudd: When people learn of this, many remarked what an unlikely beginning to a career such as yours. Unconventional, yes. Unconventional in many ways. However it is this nontraditional path that has led to a rich experience as a joint way fire -- were fighter. -- war fighter.
▶ 0:29:56Lt. Gen. Rudd: Various echelons in peace time and conflict, preventing attacks against our homeland into living effects against our nation's adversaries in all domains. For decades I have had the opportunity to be a leader, consumer, enabler, generator and integrator of the intelligence and operational capabilities of nsa and cyber command.
▶ 0:30:20Lt. Gen. Rudd: For the past six years I have served in a variety of positions in the indo pacific we are focused on defense of the homeland, deterring adversaries and strengthening alliances and partnerships in the region. We do this through delivering combat credible capabilities in all domains and that includes the cyber domain.
▶ 0:30:41Lt. Gen. Rudd: If confirmed, I am prepared to leave these organizations as an integrated and essential team to rapidly deliver options and solutions to our nation's toughest security challenges at this critical time in our history. Thank you for the privilege of appearing before you today. I look forward to working with you and I look forward to your questions today.
▶ 0:30:59Chair Wicker: Thank you very much, lieutenant general. Lieutenant general donovan, you are recognized for your opening statement.
▶ 0:31:06Lt. Gen. Donovan: Good morning, chairman wicker, ranking member reed, and distinguish members of this committee. It's an honor to be here today. I'm grateful to the president, secretary, the chairman of the joint chiefs of staff, and the commandant of the marine corps for their trust and confidence in me for this nomination. It's a privilege to be alongside lieutenant general josh road, a friend and teammate for many years. We will recognize admiral halsey and his wife Dr.
▶ 0:31:34Lt. Gen. Donovan: Stephanie halsey for their seven years of selfless service. I want to recognize general edmund pettus bridge who is leading U.S. southern command. Join me today is kim, my wife and best friend for 32 years. We met on the island of crete where we were both assigned to a small naval installation. Service to our nation is in her blood. She was raised in a navy family.
▶ 0:32:00Lt. Gen. Donovan: Her father, career chaplain served across the globe, including tours in korea and vietnam during which he was awarded the purple heart. A formal naval officer, she's a passionate advocate for our military service members and their families. Also with us today is our daughter, sergeant margaret donovan, serving the marine corps special operations command. Our son, first lieutenant bryn donovan, serving on the west coast and could not be here today. He's in the training course to become a reconnaissance memory.
▶ 0:32:30Lt. Gen. Donovan: Also not with us today as our daughter-in-law, first lieutenant holly geske, in her final weeks of flight school. Kim and I are proud of them as they have not sought the easier way for the path less traveled by the few and the proud. I will take this opportunity to thank my parents frank and martha donovan for the example of faith, family and service. Enlisting in the navy and retired as a vice admiral.
▶ 0:33:01Lt. Gen. Donovan: They raised eight children and 29 grandchildren. Their legacy lives on today with 23 of our family members having served or currently serving in the U.S. military. In addition to my parents example, I have been profoundly impacted by the dedication, professionalism, courage and grit of the joint service members in every time and pace, in peace and war.
▶ 0:33:25Lt. Gen. Donovan: There so click -- there selfless example -- has shaped my approach to leadership, duty or responsibility. -- and through his possibility.
▶ 0:33:41Lt. Gen. Donovan: I have operated in every geographic combat in command and had the order to lead marines, navy, joint special operations forces across the spectrum of armed conflict from clandestine operations to high intensity combat on land, air and sea. Most operations were conducted shoulder to shoulder with allies and partners. Serving as a vice commander of U.S.
▶ 0:34:05Lt. Gen. Donovan: Special operations command, I have developed budgeting, resourcing, audit skills, challenge and accelerated my vision of autonomous warfare, and developed a close interagency and diplomatic relationships. It is with this foundation that I approach U.S. southern command. If confirmed, I'm fully committed to leading a war fighting headquarters capable of joint operations that range, speed and scale.
▶ 0:34:32Lt. Gen. Donovan: I will collaborate with allies and partners, philip commanders, and the joint staff to protect america's vital national interests, deter war and if necessary win them quickly and decisively. If confirmed, I will provide the secretary and president candid and clear military advice. I commit to remaining fully transparent with this committee. I look forward to your questions today. Thank you.
▶ 0:34:56Chair Wicker: Thank you, general. I appreciate your testimony. I will now ask you both a series of standard questions this committee poses to all military nominees. We found it is best if we just have a simple yes or no as your response.
▶ 0:35:17Chair Wicker: To exercise its oversight responsibilities it is important that this committee and other appropriate committees of the congress be able to receive testimony, briefings and communications of information. Have you adhered to applicable laws and regulations governing conflict of interest? >> yes. >> yes.
▶ 0:35:37Chair Wicker: Do you agree when asked to give your personal views even if those views differ from the administration and power? >> yes.
▶ 0:35:49Chair Wicker: Have you assumed duties or undertaken actions which would appear to resume the outcome of the nominations process? >> no.
▶ 0:35:56Chair Wicker: You ensure your staff compliance with -- complies with deadlines and for requested communications, including questions for the record and hearings? >> yes.
▶ 0:36:08Chair Wicker: Lee cooperate in providing witnesses and prefers in response to congressional requests? >> yes.
▶ 0:36:16Chair Wicker: Will those witnesses be protected from reprisal? >> yes.
▶ 0:36:22Chair Wicker: Do you agree to appear and testify upon request for this committee? >> yes.
▶ 0:36:28Chair Wicker: Do you agree to provide documents, including electronic forms of communication in a timely manner when requested by a duly constituted committee or consult with the committee regarding the basis for any good faith delay or denial in providing such documents? >> yes.
▶ 0:36:50Chair Wicker: Thank you very much. Now we will recognize each member of the committee who chooses to question you for five minutes. Let me begin by a quick yes or no question that we have been asking for some time now of nominees. I asked this because we are having some problems with implementation of last year's reconciliation bill.
▶ 0:37:19Chair Wicker: Do you commit, general donovan, to follow the congress's spending recommendations on defense reconciliation unequivocally?
▶ 0:37:28Lt. Gen. Donovan: Yes.
▶ 0:37:30Lt. Gen. Rudd: Yes, senator.
▶ 0:37:33Chair Wicker: Let me turn to you first, general donovan. We know it has happened in venezuela. We referred to that in our opening statements from the dais. We know that the maduro regime was corrupt. Then illegitimate narco government dictatorship. He's been removed now.
▶ 0:37:59Chair Wicker: Where does that leave you and southcom should you be confirmed to limit the adversarial power so close to home and reduce the supply of drugs? What strategic options are now open to you since we have in venezuela a government that is cooperating with us to an extent?
▶ 0:38:22Lt. Gen. Rudd: In my current role as vice commander of U.S. special operations command, not connected to the current planning operations or future planning and selling command. If confirmed, I will be fully involved in that process. My responsibility would be to provide the planning and staff process at southcom headquarters to create the best options to present to the secretary.
▶ 0:38:46Chair Wicker: Do you have any ideas about to what extent or what way you will be involved?
▶ 0:38:53Lt. Gen. Donovan: If confirmed, my responsibility is that everything happens in's command is my responsibility inside the aor. I would be responsible for the planning process that includes not only the staff but the subordinate commands, intra-agency it and other players, including allies and partners to create those best plans and best military provides to provide to the chairman and the secretary.
▶ 0:39:19Chair Wicker: Perhaps you could expound on this on the record as to what strategic options you will have. I appreciate that. Let's talk dual hat. We have spoke about that in our opening statements appear -- up here. You will inherit this responsibility at a critical time.
▶ 0:39:44Chair Wicker: What are your views about the unique advantages and what national security impact would you expect to see if somehow changes were made to this dual hat arrangement?
▶ 0:39:57Lt. Gen. Rudd: Chairman, I think what I have seen from the perspective of U.S. indopacom since that arrangement was in place is the effects of unity of command and effort across two different organizations that I believe and understand and what I have seen from a consumer of those capabilities is
▶ 0:40:29Lt. Gen. Rudd: Effectiveness that fosters integration and speed. I think that the current strategic environment that we are in definitely requires speed, agility, integration of all of our capabilities. Not just of those organizations but across the joint force and across all domains. There is an independent study that looked at that and continues to look at that.
▶ 0:40:54Lt. Gen. Rudd: If confirmed, my responsibility is to remain objective about that relationship, assess continuously if that is the most effective way to lead those two organizations.
▶ 0:41:06Chair Wicker: I think you will find is a great deal of support appear on this committee for that dual hat response ability. Let me see if I can get one more question. Last year's working families tax relief bill provided $1 billion for offensive cyber operation, reflecting the strategic importance of these capabilities. Based on what you have seen -- you have not taken office in this position yet.
▶ 0:41:34Chair Wicker: Do you think cyber command, based on legislation that has been passed and money allocated, is optimized to support the commander of indopacom?
▶ 0:41:49Lt. Gen. Rudd: U.S. indopacom has an incredible relationship with cyber command and we worked tirelessly to ensure that those capabilities of cyber command are integrated into all domains, both kinetic, non-kinetic integration of capabilities and that is something that we exercise every day and we certainly look at ways to improve one of our exercises -- everyone of her exercises.
▶ 0:42:20Sen. Reed: Let me thank you for your extraordinary service. You both then you both t have been at the tip of the spear for three decades. General donovan, the 2025 security strategy calls on the military to readjust his global military presence to address urgent threats in our hemisphere.
▶ 0:42:47Sen. Reed: His southcom in your view -- is southcom prepared for a shift in policy?
▶ 0:42:56Lt. Gen. Donovan: How I think about that if confirmed, I would look at the assets that are currently deployed in theater for the task at hand, lay that on top of the great work that southern command is known for which a security cooperation. Is that enough to address what we believe in the nss with the western hemisphere as a priority region now? Is that enough to achieve the objectives?
▶ 0:43:25Lt. Gen. Donovan: I cannot speak on that until them and position to understand the challenges and opportunities of maintaining the current posture, but also being aware that there is global requirements for the joint force. I pledge if confirmed to work with the joint staff to ensure southcom would have the assets, resources to achieve the objectives as envisioned in the nss.
▶ 0:43:49Chair Wicker: It is ok for you two did on to tell us how you feel. We realize you have not been confirmed yet. So far we have not received any answers about how you feel about things. The responsibilities you are about to take on. It is ok to tell us. It would be helpful.
▶ 0:44:15Sen. Reed: Thank you, Mr. chairman, very much. Please, general donovan.
▶ 0:44:21Lt. Gen. Donovan: Ranking member reed, understanding the layout of resources -- not in theater and not understanding what is on hand and will remain in theater is how I answered that question.
▶ 0:44:37Sen. Reed: You do not have any indication of how long these forces will spend in the caribbean region? You have no indication from the chairman?
▶ 0:44:49Lt. Gen. Donovan: I do not.
▶ 0:44:50Sen. Reed: You just said in response to chairman wicker that everything that happens in my ao is my response ability. There is likely, at least it seems this way that they will be boat strikes by military personnel against these high speed boats, small boats.
▶ 0:45:15Sen. Reed: They are quite controversial from a legal standpoint and from also from an operational standpoint. Will you review every one of these strikes and look back at the previous strikes with the advice of counsel to ensure they have all been conducted legally?
▶ 0:45:36Lt. Gen. Donovan: Ranking member reed, my responsibility will be to execute a planning process that brings the whole of the staff together at each one of these operations, including legal advisors, to understand the mission, organize the force and then execute the mission as required. Yes, I have that responsibility and will continue to lead the staff to ensure all those operations are executed within the laws .
▶ 0:46:05Sen. Reed: General rudd, you indicated that command-and-control model must balance tactical agility with reteaching oversight, which I can agree with. We have a problem sometimes of paralysis by analysis. I think that is what you are referring to. We also have problems sometimes with sacrificing due diligence and scientific inquiry for speed. It is a great balance.
▶ 0:46:36Sen. Reed: Can you indicate how you propose to make that balance?
▶ 0:46:40Lt. Gen. Rudd: Ranking member, the word that jumps out at me in your question is speed. I think if we think about the strategic environment that we are currently facing, the element of speed is absolutely essential.
▶ 0:47:00Lt. Gen. Rudd: Making sure this organization, both organizations, are able to deliver options and defects quickly and support of the combatant commanders and/or decision-makers. Certainly the has to be due diligence and responsibility in the execution of duties at a rapid pace. Always something that a commander assesses in terms of risk, deep analysis, consultation with the experts, especially in this regard.
▶ 0:47:31Lt. Gen. Rudd: Cybercom and nsa have unbelievably talented and deeply technical expertise in their capabilities and response abilities. I think that is a constant balance. Certainly a responsibility for every combatant commander. Ranking member, I pledge to continue to do that due diligence.
▶ 0:47:50Sen. Reed: One more comment. One way to accelerate is to anticipate. That requires getting together with all of your staffs and looking ahead at the latest intelligence and what the threat will be not next week or the following week but into the future. Thank you very much, sir.
▶ 0:48:14Chair Wicker: Senator fischer.
▶ 0:48:18Sen. Fischer: I think both of you for this service you have given to this country and your willingness to step forward in these new positions. My thanks also to your families for their service and sacrifice that they have done for many, many years as well to this country.
▶ 0:48:36Sen. Fischer: General rudd, how has your experience as a consumer of intelligence and operational capabilities of nsa and cybercom informed your understanding of the value of cyber effects to help shape that battle space?
▶ 0:48:56Lt. Gen. Rudd: Senator, the reliance upon signals intelligence and cyber capabilities are absolutely indispensable to our war fighters. My role at indopacom, we look at it every day. We operationalize it and integrate it and we factor it into every one of her decisions.
▶ 0:49:23Lt. Gen. Rudd: It enhances the way we are able to collectively across the joint force and in all domains generate the options that continue to deliver the terrence. -- deterrence. If you go further in my that holds true. Different theaters, different problem sets but that has been a continuous theme throughout my career.
▶ 0:49:44Sen. Fischer: When you talk about the joint force, how would you prioritize the deepening relationships with the other combatant commands? From what you understand now in the position you are nominated for, do you believe it has the resources you would need in order to accomplish that?
▶ 0:50:09Lt. Gen. Rudd: Senator, the relationships across the combatant commands are indispensable. We foster it everyday through our operations. We enhance it through our exercises and experimentation. There is constant communication. I think it is certainly the underpinning of how we deliver the unbelievable capability we have two bring to bear on these problem sets most effectively.
▶ 0:50:39Lt. Gen. Rudd: If confirmed, that is something I would prioritize. Continuing to build and enhance those relationships.
▶ 0:50:45Sen. Fischer: General rudd, we look at the tools with ai and how they are continuing to evolve. I expect we are going to see it more integrated in both cybercom as our adversaries are going to be integrating ai into their weapons and the tools that they use.
▶ 0:51:11Sen. Fischer: Although we will not be able to go into much detail in the setting we are in now, we have seen public reports about adversaries using ai to target U.S. companies. You are at indopacom. Indopacom has been an early adopter of ai technologies. What have been the impacts of that adoption?
▶ 0:51:37Sen. Fischer: What lessons from that experience do you expect to carry forward to cybercom if confirmed to that position?
▶ 0:51:49Lt. Gen. Rudd: We have put a concentrated effort at us indopacom. This committee has been supportive of making sure both cybercom and the rest of the joint force has resourcing and prioritization of the critical capability.
▶ 0:52:11Sen. Fischer: As you have seen the adoption of the capabilities has it been easy or seamless, other bumps in the road? Tell me about the adoption. What you anticipate to see in cybercom.
▶ 0:52:33Lt. Gen. Rudd: I think the adoption of capabilities varies based on individual use but it's about leadership and prioritization. In the case of ai, it is a capability that has to be understood in broadly transmitted across the workforce. Leaders have to prioritize it. Certainly we are.
▶ 0:52:57Lt. Gen. Rudd: I am confident that cybercom is doing at the same way that indopacom is. We are learning a lot, learning fast and we will continue to do that.
▶ 0:53:09Sen. Fischer: A quick question to general donovan. We talked about relationships and the strength of those relationships that are in southcom. Can you give me an example of what you do to try to deepen those relationships?
▶ 0:53:28Lt. Gen. Donovan: Senator, I would build on the great work southern command has always been known for and look for ways to expand those to increase regional security and partners that can help carry the burden.
▶ 0:53:43Sen. Fischer: Thank you, Mr. chairman.
▶ 0:53:44Chair Wicker: Senator shaheen.
▶ 0:53:47Sen. Shaheen: Congratulations to both of you on your nominations and thank you to you and your families for your willingness to continue to serve. Lieutenant general donovan, historically usa programs and state department fund and support have been critical in southcom. As we know on this committee, with most often in the past have had a low force presence in the region.
▶ 0:54:16Sen. Shaheen: We have used soft power to combat chinese and russian and other adversarial influences their. In fiscal year 2024, usaid provided $1.3 billion in humanitarian assistance in southcom's area of responsibility. In 2025, that number dropped to only $127.5 million.
▶ 0:54:39Sen. Shaheen: As you think about this challenge, how do you address the need for soft power in the region without having the previous available support to do that?
▶ 0:54:54Lt. Gen. Donovan: Thank you for that and I have been thinking quite a bit about that. Throughout my 37 years of service I have always been assured -- aligned with supporting and always working closely with the chief of mission, the elements of the department of state. It is ingrained as marines and as a soft leader. I am concerned about any drops in any of the tools available to combatant commanders to address a range of issues.
▶ 0:55:23Lt. Gen. Donovan: The idea of soft power ensuring if confirmed on the ground I can take a look at the requirements, specifically if made a priority effort in the nss. It needs to be met by our friday efforts for resources available with allies and partners to be used in ways we have used so successfully in the past. I pledge to look into any decrement and find ways to cover gaps in resources.
▶ 0:55:54Sen. Shaheen: As you are thinking down the road what does success look like at southcom in the next three to five years?
▶ 0:56:02Lt. Gen. Donovan: It looks at a safe and secure homeland. Southcom's connection to northcom. Regional partners handling regional problems and sharing these burdens.
▶ 0:56:17Sen. Shaheen: Lieutenant general rudd, cybercom, as discussed when you came to see me plays a critical role in disrupting for an adversarial cyber threats to the united states. Traditionally, the cybercom commander sits on the inter agency group.
▶ 0:56:43Sen. Shaheen: The office of the director of national intelligence annual threat assessments from 2023, 2024 and 2025 all said that russia and china both view election interference as opportunities to advance their maligned influence operations and so domestic discord. With elections coming up this year, as you can imagine election security is critical in america.
▶ 0:57:10Sen. Shaheen: If confirmed, how would you prioritize cybercom's work with the internet agency election group?
▶ 0:57:17Lt. Gen. Rudd: Any for an attempt to undermine the american process of democracy and at the center of that is our electoral process, as you know far better than I do, has got to be safeguarded. It is a fundamental priority for the nation. As you described, there is and interagency process and members that do that.
▶ 0:57:45Lt. Gen. Rudd: I would hope confirmed my experience with interagency collaboration andi don't know we collaboration andi don't know wm has currently planned for the future elections. It has had a critical role in the past. If confirmed, I would continue to prioritize that as directed.
▶ 0:58:09Sen. Shaheen: Lieutenant general donovan, when we visited in my office one thing we talked about was the challenge of the expanded operations in south com and what that means for the mission requirements for personnel, for the foundation to support that expanded mission.
▶ 0:58:34Sen. Shaheen: Can you talk about how you view that it what you think we need to do in order to ensure we have the support that is needed for the build up there?
▶ 0:58:44Lt. Gen. Donovan: Thank you for that. It is all about logistics and the logistics foundation is to maintain the capabilities to offer additional mission sets in the future.
▶ 0:58:55Sen. Shaheen: Thank you, Mr. chairman.
▶ 0:58:58Chair Wicker: Senator scott.
▶ 0:59:00Sen. Scott: Congratulations on your nominations. Thank you for your service. Thank you for your families that have supported you throughout this. I am from florida. We have a big human population, venezuelan population, nicaraguan. What happened with maduro has unbelievably energized our state. For the first time they are optimistic they will seek democracy and freedom throughout latin america.
▶ 0:59:31Sen. Scott: Not just in venezuela but in cuba and nicaragua and hopefully they will get a new president in columbia. I want to thank president trump for the decisive action he took. I really want to thank the military because it was flawless. What you guys accomplished and were able to get a classified briefing and what raising cain did and how it was done was unbelievable.
▶ 1:00:02Sen. Scott: Any servicemen and women you talk to, on behalf of everybody up here, thank them for what they did. General donovan, what do you think our enemies learn from the president's decisive action and military success in venezuela? What did dictators think when they saw the flawless execution by military?
▶ 1:00:24Lt. Gen. Donovan: Thank you for the time in your office. I have not seen the intel analysis of what they are thinking from an intel perspective. I have to believe they would be very weary of the U.S. military. Execution at range, speed and scale was phenomenal. That is what we bring to the fight across the globe. I hope they are paying attention.
▶ 1:00:50Sen. Scott: General donovan, what do you believe -- do you believe the communist regime in cuba is a threat to national security that regime has always been a threat to U.S. national security. I intend to get to headquarters to determine the status of that threat and provide military options and fast. -- if asked.
▶ 1:01:16Sen. Scott: We talked about homestead. Can you talk about the importance of homestead from a position standpoint and a power projection standpoint and what you think we should be doing and focused on going forward?
▶ 1:01:29Lt. Gen. Donovan: Homestead is a key location for us in the U.S. coc csocom. If confirmed, you need as many options on the table as possible. If you look at homestead, that the location for high-end platforms. Additional isr platforms that could increase domain awareness across the whole theater.
▶ 1:02:00Lt. Gen. Donovan: It is in a key location and I want as many options on the table as possible.
▶ 1:02:03Sen. Scott: Congratulations to both of you. You are well qualified to do this and I'm sure you will both do a great job.
▶ 1:02:10Chair Wicker: Senator scott, you publicly gave president maduro some advice several days before the action of the united states. I am just guessing that he wishes he had listen more carefully. Senator hirono.
▶ 1:02:34Sen. Hirono: Thank you both for you and your family service. I want to be clear from my perspective. The trump regime is executing a divergent campaign from the real challenges that face the people of our country. The military operation in venezuela is another example of how the U.S.
▶ 1:02:59Sen. Hirono: Military can successfully execute a complicated -- complex operation. That is not the subject of debate. What is up for debate are the decisions surrounding this operation. It's legality, whether it was worth risking american lives, and if there is a plan for what happens next.
▶ 1:03:28Sen. Hirono: Recent polling shows that the majority of americans are concerned that the U.S. will be too involved in venezuela. We need to be focused on hard questions about the future venezuela and the scope of the U.S. engagement moving forward.
▶ 1:03:46Sen. Hirono: While the trump administration and trump regime pats itself on the back, they are refusing to tell the american people and congress about what comes next. Instead president trump boasts that the U.S. will be running venezuela for years but it is not clear who will do that running. This regime is writing the script as they go along. This is not a saturday night live skit.
▶ 1:04:17Sen. Hirono: This is real life. In the midst of an affordability crisis in our own country, this regime is focusing on running venezuela and debating which country to take over next. We are being asked to celebrate a foreign intervention that lacks legal underpinning or a clear exit strategy. Congress, the american people and our allies and partners are left with more questions than answers.
▶ 1:04:46Sen. Hirono: We need a president who respects the constitution rather than relying on politicized legal opinions and his morality as he puts it. Without accountability, a long-term strategy and transparency the trump regime is failing the american people. I ask an initial two questions for any of the committees on which I sit so I asked the questions echo for fitness for serving.
▶ 1:05:14Sen. Hirono: We will start with general donovan. Since you became a legal adult have you made unwanted requests for sexual favors or committed any verbal or physical harassment or assault of a sexual nature?
▶ 1:05:30Lt. Gen. Donovan: No, senator.
▶ 1:05:31Sen. Hirono: General rudd?
▶ 1:05:38Lt. Gen. Rudd: No, senator.
▶ 1:05:44Sen. Hirono: For general donovan, southcom has traditionally focused on security cooperation, counter drug and disaster response, not high-intensity combat. I am concerned with the nomination of a general with your background with the intention to expand high-intensity or special operations in the region without the right resources and institutional experience.
▶ 1:06:16Sen. Hirono: For example, watchdog reports say that southcom civilian harm mitigation staff has been reduced from four personnel to a single contractor. General donovan, if confirmed, will you commit to fully implementi civiliann harm mitigation policies, which is an importantg part of your assessment before you engage in any operations? Would you agree?
▶ 1:06:45Lt. Gen. Donovan: I commit to that.
▶ 1:06:46Sen. Hirono: Leo request the resources you need in order to -- will you request the resources you need to order the assessment? This is one example of the resources I have concerned about regarding southcom.
▶ 1:07:00Lt. Gen. Donovan: Yes, senator.
▶ 1:07:02Sen. Hirono: General rudd, you have insight into the threats posed by china from your position at indopacom and I thank you for your service at indopacom. Countering china's cyber threats demand strong technical leadership at the top. Cybercom's advantage has been intelligence sharing with allies. It is very concerning the president trump has withdrawn the U.S.
▶ 1:07:29Sen. Hirono: From many international organizations focused on cyber coordination and deterrence. The cyber domain remains a vulnerable area that demands deep technical expertise and international coordination.
▶ 1:07:47Sen. Hirono: Without this access to the kind of international coronation trump is taking us out of, without the kind of expertise I would expect someone who will be taking over cyber command, how would you address these challenges?
▶ 1:08:03Lt. Gen. Rudd: Senator, as you know very well at indopacom allies and partners are critical to our approach. That will continue. That is a critical part of all of our combatant commands. If confirmed, I will continue to deepen those relationships. To the point about the technical aspects of the job, I am confident the incredible talent at cybercom and nsa essay will provide great advice.
▶ 1:08:34Lt. Gen. Rudd: I am confident that if confirmed I can continue to lead and enable those organizations to provide the best support to our combatant commanders in the joint force written large. -- writ large.
▶ 1:08:49Chair Wicker: Senator tuberville.
▶ 1:08:52Sen. Tuberville: Good morning. Thanks for your service, guys. Thanks for having your families here. Some of their service. . Lieutenant general donovan, I appreciate you may not have the opportunity to spend a significant amount of time at your new headquarters. I have been there several times.
▶ 1:09:17Sen. Tuberville: It strikes me while the current facility is not good for southern command's previous focus, the theater security operation, the next mentor will need to evolve the facilities and staff to operate as a more traditional commit. Especially given president trump's desire to focus on our own hemisphere. What are your thoughts on that statement it will you agree to evaluate your situation in terms of your headquarters and what you get -- when you get to miami?
▶ 1:09:46Lt. Gen. Donovan: Thank you for that. I have been thinking a lot about that. I have to credit the southcom team that has done great work on the security cooperation and allies and partners in building the partnership capacity and capability. The nss directs us to enhance that. Now to a full-spectrum capability to offer the best military solutions or advice to the secretary and president. The assessment will include all the things you mentioned, senator. We will do that quickly.
▶ 1:10:15Sen. Tuberville: Being a football coach for 30 years I dealt with a lot of young people. I saw the influx of drugs in our country really increase in the last 10 or 15 years. Now that we are taking forcible action in your command, and our state of alabama I have seen and heard from law enforcement officers that we have seen a decline in drugs. I want to make that statement.
▶ 1:10:47Sen. Tuberville: If we don't do something, if we don't take a serious response on what they are doing coming to the caribbean we will lose this generation, because our streets are filled with drugs. If we close our eyes to that, shame on us. I would hope that what you understand -- you have a family.
▶ 1:11:12Sen. Tuberville: You have seen your family grew up and seen the streets but I think moving to miami and moving to southern command will be an eye-opening experience for you in terms of a different world from what a lot of us are in. General rudd, the nsa is likely our most powerful intelligence agency. Cybercom has become part of almost every operation we undertake. It is time to reevaluate the dual hat.
▶ 1:11:41Sen. Tuberville: I have heard good arguments on both sides. What are your thoughts? Our chairman has brought that up. What is your thoughts on the dual role?
▶ 1:11:51Lt. Gen. Rudd: Senator, again, from my experience of where I see that applied throughout my career, I think there is demonstration of effectiveness and efficiency. I would characterize effectiveness should always trump proficiency.
▶ 1:12:09Lt. Gen. Rudd: The efficiencies of unity of command and the ability for that individual to continue to harness and integrate the incredible capabilities of both those organizations I think is a component that enables that organization to provide great support to our war fighters. Senator, if I'm confirmed for this, I think my role is to be objective about that as that comes up or if it continues to come up as a topic.
▶ 1:12:41Lt. Gen. Rudd: I will be objective. I will seek great insight from not only the two organizations with the customer as well. How does that work best and provide my best advice.
▶ 1:12:51Sen. Tuberville: There is more than one way to skin a cat. We have a lot of people doing dual roles but this is important position. Both of these. My son is in cyber in the defense department. The things I hear about what is coming up and the possibilities over the years in front of us with this generation, I have full confidence in you. When we get you possibly back after you are confirmed with up to get a good evaluation of what you think for the future of both of these commands.
▶ 1:13:23Sen. Tuberville: Thank you, Mr. chairman.
▶ 1:13:24Chair Wicker: General rudd, if you can move the microphone a little closer. Senator blumenthal is next.
▶ 1:13:34Sen. Blumenthal: Thank you both for being here and for your very lengthy and distinguished records of service and thank you to your families. Not only for their support but to your children. General donovan, for their service in the marine corps.
▶ 1:13:55Sen. Blumenthal: General donovan, the united states continues to have a massive military presence in the caribbean. After the rendition of nicolas maduro the purpose of having that presence there will supposedly to extricate him so as to bring him to justice.
▶ 1:14:22Sen. Blumenthal: Now that it has been accomplished, what is the purpose of maintaining that continuing massive presence in the caribbean? >> senator, thank you for the time in your office and for the stories of your children who served this nation honorably. Thank you.
▶ 1:14:45Sen. Blumenthal: From my perspective, how I think about that problem, it's about the opportunities of the build up in the caribbean and south america right now, those assets. It confirms the responsibility of sustaining that asset over time. It will be for the expeditionary unit. They are needed around the globe, there are not enough of them. Can we sustain and maintain if they stay?
▶ 1:15:16Sen. Blumenthal: If they are moved out for other reasons, how do we play set ability or move it in different directions with soft power approaches.
▶ 1:15:27Sen. Blumenthal: It's no secret that americans are concerned that there might be the use of those assets to either once again put troops on the ground in venezuela, albeit they were only briefly in the last time, or in cuba, or another country in the south,. Are you aware of any plans to begin any strikes using those assets or others?
▶ 1:15:56Gen. Donovan: Senator, I am not. My current position in the pentagon working for U.S. special operations does not make me privy to those plans. If confirmed, I will be fully involved in future plans.
▶ 1:16:09Sen. Blumenthal: I'm very concerned about the legal basis for both the strikes on boats that have killed more than 100 people, more than 20 of the boats that were allegedly carrying narcotics, I reviewed both the office of legal counsel opinions and find them totally lacking. In fact, almost a sham. One of them has been made public in redacted form. The other, not at all.
▶ 1:16:40Sen. Blumenthal: Would you support making those office of legal opinions public, as I believe the american people have a right and deserve to see them?
▶ 1:16:51Gen. Donovan: I understand the seriousness of the question, but I would have to defer to policy and legal advisors at the secretary level to answer that question, senator.
▶ 1:17:02Sen. Blumenthal: You and I talked a bit in my office about the energetic attempts by russia and china to exploit the turmoil and confusion ongoing in cellcom. Can you share with this committee a bit about your perspective on russia and china as threats to the united states in that area?
▶ 1:17:27Gen. Donovan: Senator, again if confirmed I intend to dive deep into that. That topic set. How I think about it in my current position is that they, I believe both of those actors would be wary of military competition, because they would be extended from their source of strength and power.
▶ 1:17:50Gen. Donovan: I think that what we look at in the future, potentially, is how do we align salt aspects of power to be complemented by, when required, harder aspects of military power to counter those threats as they are right now currently both of the threats are well throughout the south, ao are and we have to find a way to counter the success and use the assets and capabilities in place now.
▶ 1:18:22Gen. Donovan: I believe that most of the counter response will come from the economic side in terms of those intrusions, as you say, senator.
▶ 1:18:28Sen. Reed: Thank you to both of you. Thank you, Mr. chairman.
▶ 1:18:32Chair Wicker: Thank you. Senator?
▶ 1:18:38Senator: Let me begin by saying to both general ryan and general donovan, thank you -- general rudd and general donovan, thank you both for your service to the nation. You have spent much of your career operating at the tip of the spear of combat.
▶ 1:18:56Senator: As you are considered for new roles with additional responsibilities, I appreciate your continued willingness to serve our nation in this exceptionally complex threat environment and I want to send that same thank you to your families for their sacrifices as well.
▶ 1:19:14Senator: As I discussed with both of you in my office, I have heard from 56 dod officials in the past three years, including the secretary of defense, every service cheese -- service chief, and nine combatant commanders, that vacating the band on the spectrum would have an extremely detrimental impact on our war fighting capabilities, including homeland defense missions,
▶ 1:19:46Senator: Forced protection for troops overseas, and strategic communications. General road, general donovan, if confirmed will you advocate for and defend the department equities that operate on or use those bands of the spectrum, including the radars that will make the trump golden dome function appropriately? Yes or no would be appropriate.
▶ 1:20:07Gen. Donovan: Yes, sir.
▶ 1:20:09Sen. Rudd: Yes, senator.
▶ 1:20:11Sen. Rounds: Thank you. Let me go to general rudd, specifically. Senator wicker asked you about the importance of the dual out leadership arrangement. I wanted to follow-up on that with you. As you understand it, how important with the dual hat be with a conflict -- in a conflict with an adversary during which time cyber calm would be providing cyber fires to other commands? Sen.
▶ 1:20:40Sen. Rounds: Rudd: as we discussed in your office, and as I alluded to earlier and have spoken about, the unity of effort that comes out of that current construct is, I think, really important to enabling the support of both of those organizations to the war fighter to continue at speed and provide agility.
▶ 1:21:07Sen. Rounds: Increasingly, we are looking at how we effectively integrate those capabilities across the other joint capabilities in kinetic and non-kinetic scenarios. When we look at that, we do it on a daily basis. Not kinetically, but we certainly employ those on a daily basis. I think that what we see at pay calm is a very effective construct.
▶ 1:21:33Sen. Rounds: I think that my role, if confirmed, is to continue to be objective about that as it comes up for review it's to continually assess that.
▶ 1:21:45Sen. Rounds: It's prudent to be effective in the speed and efficiency of making those deliveries and when you share what might be an asset from one side of the coin to the other. I appreciate your recognition of that in your current position as well.
▶ 1:22:12Sen. Rounds: General donovan, section 1605 of the fy 20 four ndaa authorizes cyber activity against mexican transnational criminal organizations. In your professional military opinion, would providing similar authorities to the commander of south calm provide more options to the commander and ultimately enhance U.S. security in the region?
▶ 1:22:38Sen. Rounds: I think of this one goes unnoticed once in a while, but those authorizations to allow us to get in and actually follow up and follow these transnational terminal organizations will be extremely effective in allowing our opportunities to limit their abilities to bring drugs and so forth into our country. But we have never really talk about it in the rest of south tom. I would like your thoughts. -- south com.
▶ 1:23:09Sen. Rounds: I would like your thoughts.
▶ 1:23:10Gen. Donovan: We discuss this in your office about how that authority applied to potential mexican target sets and the belief is that that should be extended across the -- the entire ao are, connecting north com and south com where we have that unity of effort in approach, the sharing and collaboration required to protect homeland.
▶ 1:23:32Sen. Rounds: Thank you you, Mr. chairman.
▶ 1:23:34Chair Wicker: Thank you, senator. Senator kaine?
▶ 1:23:39Senator Kaine: Thank you, Mr. chair. To the witnesses, congratulations on your nomination. General dom in the event -- general donovan, as a member of the american subcommittee on foreign relations, I want to focus my questions to you.
▶ 1:23:57Senator Kaine: Based on our office discussion the other day, and I appreciated both of our discussions, I understand you were not involved and have not been involved in any of the planning around either operation, southern spear, the boat strike, or the maduro extraction, am I correct in that?
▶ 1:24:14Gen. Donovan: That is correct.
▶ 1:24:16Sen. Kaine: Would it also be the case that since we have officials from greenland and denmark visiting us today, you haven't been involved in the planning of any military operations regarding greenland, correct?
▶ 1:24:28Gen. Donovan: That is correct.
▶ 1:24:29Sen. Kaine: Thank you. This is the first public hearing we've had since the operations began on september 2, where we can talk in the public in the armed services committee about this set of operations. So, I am going to put some comments on the record that are not directed at you, as you clarified you have not been involved in the planning. First, a factual matter.
▶ 1:24:56Sen. Kaine: Some of my colleagues talk about the boat strikes as strikes against narco traffickers and narcotics boats. When I was trying cases, we used to say that it assumes a fact and not in evidence, that the boats had narcotics on them. I know more than I'm allowed to say at this hearing, but I would encourage all of my colleagues to get the briefing I got about these strikes and ask the question, in each instance where there any narcotics on the boat. Was there evidence of narcotics.
▶ 1:25:26Sen. Kaine: Also ask the question, is the presence of narcotics even a criteria that is used in the targeting of these boats. I would encourage all of my colleagues to get the briefing that I got. I think it might surprise you.
▶ 1:25:42Sen. Kaine: The second thing, from a matter of law, general donovan, this operation, southern spear and absolute resolve, in my 13 years in the senate, has been the operation that has raised the most questions about its legality. Again, from what I know, reading legal opinions, which I only know in classified and I'm not allowed to really discuss them, many of us have questions about legality, but it isn't just us.
▶ 1:26:09Sen. Kaine: The news widely reported the premature retirement of your predecessor as being a partly motivated by his concerns about the legality of these operations. He is not the only one.
▶ 1:26:24Sen. Kaine: I am going to read the title of a news article that came out a while ago at nbc news, november 19th, top military lawyer raised legal concerns about boat strikes, talking about senior military lawyer for south, objecting to the legality of the strikes. The concerns about legality have also been raised by allies, which should be important to us.
▶ 1:26:49Sen. Kaine: It has been widely reported that the united kingdom and other allies are not sharing full intel with the united states in the ao are, because they are concerned of the U.S. is using that intel to carry out unlawful operations. And other nations in the region that have been allies of ours have also raised questions about the legality of these operations. The questions will not go away. They cause us great concern.
▶ 1:27:17Sen. Kaine: Second, there is some deep concern about the mission itself. The national security strategy released by the trump administration on the first thursday in december had something I liked, putting the western hemisphere has a high priority, which I think means more budgetary resources coming to south com, which is great. But the document talks about a new monroe doctrine. As someone who lived in latin america, you don't know how badly that went in the americas.
▶ 1:27:49Sen. Kaine: For our allies in the americas, it was about american dominance, not american partnership. It was about the right of america to intervene in the politics of any nation, including invasions, often with the deposing of governments. That's what the monroe doctrine was. That's what the monroe doctrine means to people in that region. As I explained to you when we were together, and I really appreciated our discussion, no self-respecting nation is going to allow itself to be dominated.
▶ 1:28:21Sen. Kaine: The chinese come into the region offering partnership, but we all know how hollow the offer is. It often has a lot of razor blades in the apple. But an offer of partnership will always be chosen over and acceptance of dominance.
▶ 1:28:38Sen. Kaine: I just hope that in your role, as you get there and get the lay of the land and carry forward, you have done a lot of work with allies in your previous work, of course, and in the inter-agency, you know how important allies are. Let's not turn the face of a bully to allies. If we do, we will chase them even faster into the hands of adversaries who are willing to invest an awful lot more than we are. Those would be free advice, worth what you paid for it.
▶ 1:29:07Sen. Kaine: I look forward to working together, should you be confirmed, and I believe you will be, on a most important part of the world where the united states has such upside opportunity, if we don't blow it. I yield back.
▶ 1:29:21Chair Wicker: Senator kaine, you have been to the same briefings I have. Let me say in response to one statement that you made, there is absolutely no doubt in my mind that these boats that have been interdicted have been drug smuggling boats. Synergy sheehy -- senator sheehy , you are recognized.
▶ 1:29:49Senator Sheehy: Good morning, generals. Congratulations on the appointment, thank you for your continued service. We have had a complex history with our southern region going back 200 plus years. I think that what is most poignant for these issues you are addressing as you enter this new position is we have had roughly a 50 year war on drugs that has had various degrees of effectiveness.
▶ 1:30:15Senator Sheehy: Whether it was columbia in the 80's, central america later, venezuela now. I would be curious to hear your thoughts. The new tools that general rudd is bringing to the table to integrate, the tactics we've learned over the last 20 years, as well as whole of government policies that we can implement.
▶ 1:30:34Senator Sheehy: You are not in the seat yet, but as you take the seat, one of your core priorities will be enhancing that ability to counter the flow of drugs into the country that is killing tens to hundreds of thousands of americans. How do you see bringing your resources to bear in this network to make our counter drug efforts more effective?
▶ 1:30:55Gen. Donovan: Senator, thank you for the time and for the office call. How I look at that, if confirmed in place with southern command, working directly with southern command, linking it to north command to make sure that we are aligned and synchronized much better. Any flow of, of drugs and other nefarious activities originated in southern command generally flows north.
▶ 1:31:24Gen. Donovan: The two commands lined up to use those capabilities like cyber in a very synchronized fashion, and I will be responsible to providing those best military options alongside the close combatant commanders, north com to south com, western side of the continent, working with staff for a collaborative effort on the best solutions that in turn are the best military advice to provide the secretary.
▶ 1:31:51Sen. Sheehy: One particular issue that is becoming increasingly important, going to senator kaine's point, our partnership with our south american allies. I myself did appointment down there back in my days countering narcotics. Those partnerships, everything that we did was integrated together with the special operations teams of our host nations. Particularly predatory chinese fishing activities.
▶ 1:32:19Sen. Sheehy: Sounds obscure, but it is incredibly important to those economies and their subsistence e. They are literally stripping entire fisheries around the world, especially in south america, where they are incredibly important. Would you mind giving me a written answer on that at some point, how you could address that as southern commander, the issue of illegal chinese fishing? General rudd, sounds like you are about to be our country pots chief nerd.
▶ 1:32:49Sen. Sheehy: Normally in cyber com we find very technically experienced cyber intel pros and now we are taking a knuckle dragger like me and putting him in charge of all of that. Could you explain to the panel while your background as an operator, door kicker, consumer of that makes you uniquely qualified to help transform our cyber nsa paradigm to be more operationalized?
▶ 1:33:14Sen. Rudd: Senator, I think the question starts with the current strategic environment we are in. It's very. There are a host of threats from a number of actors the requirement to integrate those capabilities and moved fast and scale them, to be able to increase relationships not only within the department allies and
▶ 1:33:47Sen. Rudd: Partners with the commercial industry as we talk about the technologies needed for this, it's really important. Speed is a component in everything we do. As we talked, senator, where I sit right now, I bring a deeper, mission driven understanding of the challenges that I just described her briefly.
▶ 1:34:07Sen. Rudd: Integrating the capabilities across the joint force, that understanding, that perspective from the joint war fighter, principally in the indo pay come and in recent history, but throughout my career and in a number of other theaters.
▶ 1:34:26Sen. Rudd: And then as most people are familiar with today, there is an increasing relationship and what we call the soft space cyber triad, the interdependence between those command capabilities to deliver what the nation needs.
▶ 1:34:43Sen. Rudd: If you go back before we were really in tune to and focused on space as a demand -- domain, space,, space wars and what they would bring, being inextricably linked at the hip throughout their operations, I have again been the beneficiary of it and have the privilege to lead and command those types of organizations. At the other end from where it confirmed I would bring to this one at the organizational level.
▶ 1:35:11Sen. Sheehy: General, I yield back.
▶ 1:35:15Chair Wicker: I think he meant it as a complement, don't you? You don't have to answer. Senator king?
▶ 1:35:23Senator King: Thank you very much, Mr. chairman. General donovan, I wanted to follow-up on senator blumenthal boss question. I didn't discern a clear answer. Yesterday several votes changed on the war powers resolution with regards to venezuela based upon explicit assurances in writing from the administration that there would be no troops on the ground in venezuela.
▶ 1:35:49Senator King: So, it raises the question, what is the mission, what is the purpose, of this gigantic armada that is now in the caribbean, adjacent to venezuela? It seems like we are hearing that -- a very famous new englander once said that your actions speak so loudly, I cannot hear your words.
▶ 1:36:12Senator King: We are getting words about no intention of further action in venezuela, but the actions are six destroyers, a nuclear submarine, an aircraft carrier, thousands of troops. What is the mission of that group in the caribbean?
▶ 1:36:29Gen. Donovan: From my current position, I'm not part of that. What I will pledge to you, sender, is if confirmed, working with those commanders and understanding the tasks that come down given to the command, we will x -- execute a precise process.
▶ 1:36:51Sen. King: You don't know the plan now?
▶ 1:36:54Gen. Donovan: I don't.
▶ 1:36:57Sen. King: Another question about what is going on, have you seen the video of the second strike on the boat, september 2?
▶ 1:37:07Gen. Donovan: I have not.
▶ 1:37:09Sen. King: I would commend it to you, it raises serious issues. I would commend to you section 18.3.2 point one of the war manual of the U.S. government, which says, as an example of a illegal order, orders to fire upon a shipwreck would be clearly illegal.
▶ 1:37:31Sen. King: I would urge you to look at that video in light of that admonition and the clear rules in the manual, that it is not legal to fire upon a shipwrecked individuals. Mr. general rudd.
▶ 1:37:51Sen. King: One of the problems, I believe, in our cyber policy over the years is a lack of a deterrent capability our adversaries continue to attack us in cyberspace, going back to the sony hack and up to the salt dash salt typhoon, volt typhoon. There's never a response.
▶ 1:38:13Sen. King: Do you believe that as a matter of policy that cyber com and the nsa should develop offensive cyber declaratory deterrent policies?
▶ 1:38:25Sen. Rudd: I don't know if it is my role, if confirmed, to declare policy. I think that what I can pledge to you, if confirmed --
▶ 1:38:37Sen. King: I don't believe it is, but it is your role to provide the best advice to the president on policy. My question is, do you believe that we should develop and have a publicly declared deterrent policy in cyberspace?
▶ 1:38:53Sen. Rudd: Senator, I don't know that it is my role to have that opinion. My role is to develop the options that would deliver deterrence, whether it was decided declared or not, that would be the most credible,
▶ 1:39:11Capable Aspects Sen. King: . I'm confused, you are nominated to be the top cyber officer in the U.S. government and you don't have any opinion on cyber policy or what is important? Are you simply a lever puller? I really don't understand. This is a critical area of defense. It's a vector of attack on this country. It is going on as we sit here today.
▶ 1:39:41Capable Aspects Sen. King: You don't have any opinion about how we should structure our response to these attacks? >> senator, I think it would be most appropriate if, once confirmed, if confirmed, I take the time to make an assessments, get the input of those organizations, and provide the best military advice.
▶ 1:40:06Sen. King: I find that a disappointing response. You have been nominated to this position for some time now. You are aware of the responsibilities and this is one of the most fundamental questions and cyber. Your unwillingness to even discuss it -- remember, at the beginning of the hearing you responded to the question from the chairman that you would give us your personal views, even though they may not be consistent with those of the administration. I'm disturbed either way.
▶ 1:40:36Sen. King: Either you are not responding, as you have committed to the chairman, or you don't know. Either one of those bothers me. Someone appointed to this position should have some familiarity and analysis and thinking about the position of this country in cyber, one of the most -- one of the biggest
▶ 1:41:06Sen. King: Threats we face today. Thank you, Mr. chairman.
▶ 1:41:09Chair Wicker: Senator cotton?
▶ 1:41:12Senator Cotton: Thank you for your lifetime of service to this nation and thank you to the dasher families for putting up with your lifetime of service. Some members of your family are also wearing the uniform. Congratulations on your nominations. I apologize, I had to set up for a few other commitments. I cannot get back in to be here for fewer than two minutes without hearing democrats talk about illegal orders. It has been much in the news of late.
▶ 1:41:44Senator Cotton: So, I asked general guillot, northcom commander, not quite sure how it is pronounced, but that's the arkansas pronunciation of whatever. In his vast career I asked if he ever had received an illegal order. He said no. General donovan, I would like to ask you if you have ever received an illegal order.
▶ 1:42:06Gen. Donovan: No, senator.
▶ 1:42:09Sen. Cotton: You are a pretty high speed marine, as I understand it, been out on the flop -- the frontal lot in your lifetime. From the time that you work lieutenant donovan to the time now where you have three stars and are about to add a fourth, no one has ever given you any legal order?
▶ 1:42:28Gen. Donovan: No, senator.
▶ 1:42:30Sen. Cotton: General rudd? You are a pretty high speed soldier. I see a lot of impressive badges . They are on your uniform. Jump master, I think? Military freefall jump master? More commonly known as halo? I think I even see scuba, very rare in the army.
▶ 1:43:04Sen. Cotton: In all of your vast military experience, have you ever received an illegal order?
▶ 1:43:09Sen. Rudd: No, senator.
▶ 1:43:12Sen. Cotton: Not even from lieutenant rudd, quartermaster, all the way up to three-star general? Now about to be four star general? No one has ever given you an illegal?
▶ 1:43:25Sen. Rudd: Sen. cotton: no, senator. Seems to be that our military does a very good job of training our troops, from the time that they enlist as privates to the time that they commission as lieutenants, all the way up to your level and to the commander-in-chief, not to issue illegal orders.
▶ 1:43:52Sen. Rudd: Or, especially at your level, when you have lawyers hanging around you all the time, do you seek your counsel, as anyone would. I bet as some of the politicians on the dais understandably received legal counsel in affairs related to their job.
▶ 1:44:12Sen. Rudd: So, I am glad to hear from so many of our military senior leaders that our military has done such a good job of ensuring that our troops don't receive illegal orders. General donovan, I would like to return to a topic that has been addressed.
▶ 1:44:33Sen. Rudd: This is the presence of such a large number of forces in the south com area of responsibility and whether that drains forces from other regions, like pacom and centcom. I think of people asking those questions would not like those forces to be employed there either. It is more of a gotcha question.
▶ 1:45:02Sen. Rudd: Understanding, general donovan, that any combatant commander in any combatant commands answer for how many forces he needs is always going to be -- more, please. Can you explain a bit about how, if confirmed, you will manage the needs of maintaining security with proper force posture in your area of responsibility along with those others around the world? Especially in the world of u com , centcom, pacom.
▶ 1:45:37Sen. Rudd: >> I'm very aware of our high demand low density assets for submarine and marine amphibious units. I'm very aware of that natural tension that's their.
▶ 1:45:55Sen. Rudd: I pledge, if confirmed, to ensure that self com -- south com needs are met and there are other capabilities that we can bring to bear from other hard type physical assets to increase the softer power to counter the prc malign influence in the region.
▶ 1:46:21Chair Wicker: Senator warren?
▶ 1:46:26Senator Warren: Nicolas maduro was a terrible leader, no doubt about it. It doesn't change the fact that the president's military action to attack another country and threatens to drag americans into a war they never voted for. What does your president mean when he says that the united states will run venezuela for years?
▶ 1:46:47Senator Warren: When he says that venezuela now has the united states of america, the most powerful military in the world by far, to protect them and protect them we will. It sounds like another forever war. Lieutenant general donovan, you are nominated to lead southern command, making you the commander responsible for any future military actions in venezuela.
▶ 1:47:15Senator Warren: You won't make policy decisions, but service members will count on you to make sure that they are not asked to engage in military operations that are not legal. According to press reports, your predecessor had serious concerns about illegal orders. That was not the case with these strikes. General donovan, is it sedition for someone in military to question whether or not an order is legal?
▶ 1:47:43Gen. Donovan: In my 37 years of experience, I received many orders over time. When I ever have faced a situation where I need to see clarity, I have asked headquarters to clarify the task. I work on it with legal advisors, leaders, commanders, and present my thoughts to higher headquarters for consideration.
▶ 1:48:07Sen. Warren: I think that what you're telling me is you have questioned whether an order is legal, is that right?
▶ 1:48:13Gen. Donovan: Senator, I did not, what I believe I'm focused on here is that the legality of the order, we face orders, we carry out missions. In the planning process, we look at all the aspects of the mission to make sure that we are structuring the command and force unit 2 --
▶ 1:48:32Sen. Warren: I appreciate that, but the question I'm trying to ask is is it sedition for someone in the military to question whether an order is legal, and I thought I just heard you say that you had actually questioned orders and whether they were legal. I will ask it one more time, is it sedition to question whether an order is legal?
▶ 1:48:55Gen. Donovan: I would not use the term sedition. I would use the term that basically, in our order and discipline, how we approach any situation where we had to provide the best capability for the task at hand.
▶ 1:49:11Sen. Warren: I'm sorry, I still can't understand your answer. I'm asking a straightforward question. You tell me that you have questioned orders about the past about the legality, is that right?
▶ 1:49:22Gen. Donovan: I have questioned orders when, one, I either didn't understand and wasn't equipped to carry them out and needed clarity before I could execute them.
▶ 1:49:33Sen. Warren: You have never questioned whether an order was legal and sought additional counsel on that?
▶ 1:49:40Gen. Donovan: In our planning processes, I always have a legal advisor at my side as a part of the process, so I have always lived -- leverage them to give me my best answer and in the end I'm responsible for the final decision to carry out or not.
▶ 1:49:56Sen. Warren: Let's stop playing dodgeball here. I felt that that would be the easy question leading to a harder question. Back in 2016, secretary hegseth was clear that service members have a duty not to follow illegal orders. Since then he has made it clear his contempt for legal review, including by sidelining military legal advisors. Including those meant to help you stay on the right side of the law.
▶ 1:50:27Sen. Warren: I wanted to know how you look at those issues. Let me try a different version of the question. If your legal advisor tells you that in order is illegal, would you refuse to carry out the order?
▶ 1:50:38Gen. Donovan: The legal advisor is one of many staff members that provide their advice, as we look at the scenario and situation at hand. I will take that very seriously if my legal advisor calls it an illegal order and I will seek clarification.
▶ 1:50:57Sen. Warren: Made of someone higher says no, what would you do in that point?
▶ 1:51:02Gen. Donovan: I would use my years of experience to carry out the order. I will never carry out illegal orders.
▶ 1:51:10Sen. Warren: I appreciate that. Thank you.
▶ 1:51:13Chair Wicker: Thank you, senator. Senator sullivan?
▶ 1:51:19Senator Sullivan: I wanted to comment, my friend and colleague, senator warren, who I respect, but I cannot help but think that these charges of unconstitutional operations against maduro are kind of partisan, simply because donald trump ordered it.
▶ 1:51:43Senator Sullivan: I can't remember a democrat saying that the obama order of killing bin laden, kind of analogous, in and out, successful raid, dangerous, I didn't hear them screaming unconstitutional on that one. That was a great op by president obama and it took a lot of guts to make the call. Like it took a lot of guts to make this call. Similarly, george h.w.
▶ 1:52:08Senator Sullivan: Bush, in the invasion of panama, to take on another drug kingpin, not a lot of democrats calling that unconstitutional. That was an invasion of forces on the ground. Olc, department of justice, saying it was illegal -- it was legal. I think this is partisan, to be honest. We all know that. I'm digressing. Gentlemen, thank you for your years of service. Decades of service. I really appreciate it.
▶ 1:52:40Senator Sullivan: The meetings in my office last week? I think both of you are highly qualified. I think that you need to get confirmed soon. I hope that it becomes a strong, bipartisan endeavor for the U.S. senate to confirm both of you. Let me follow up on a couple of questions that we talked about in my office.
▶ 1:53:04Senator Sullivan: General donovan, very quickly, the national security strategy, I think we will be getting the national defense strategy here from the trump administration soon, is going to have an emphasis on the western hemisphere. It makes a lot of sense. I think the president and his team are reviving but many of us thought was obvious, but we need to do that.
▶ 1:53:32Senator Sullivan: We need to talk about the issue of cellcom, combatant command, not as built-up as the traditional combatant commands, where there have been a lot of activity over the course of decades. Particularly I'm talking about centcom, indo pay, -- indo pacom .
▶ 1:53:57Senator Sullivan: We have a national security strategy very focused on ops in the western hemisphere, with south com is a critical component. Let's face it, that's been in under resourced, understaffed command. How do you address that? It's a big difference between what we are asking and what you will be needing to do.
▶ 1:54:15Gen. Donovan: Thank you for the conversation, senator. Even if confirmed, the first step is to do analysis of the capability of the southcom headquarters, building on the strength of the years and decades that have been known for that security approach, not well-funded, and at times for all the right reasons, the concern is now that we have additional physical assets in place, headquarters staff and structured to maintain
▶ 1:54:46Gen. Donovan: Logistics, supplying the basics to the under pen -- underpinning of military capability. As we build those military options to provide to the secretary based on what we believe the national security strategy highlights, are we capable of getting there? That would be my drive.
▶ 1:55:09Sen. Sullivan: Let the committee know what you need to. That will be important. If you need legislative authority on that, that will be important to come back to. It's important in a bipartisan way. General, I want to compliment you on your decades of service as well. Nsa has a big alaska hub now. I want you both to commit to coming to alaska when confirmed. Can I get that?
▶ 1:55:38Sen. Sullivan: The most strategic place in the world, according to general mitchell, father of the air force?
▶ 1:55:44Sen. Rudd: If confirmed, I look forward to coming to alaska.
▶ 1:55:49Gen. Donovan: If confirmed, yes.
▶ 1:55:53Sen. Sullivan: We talked about this idea of offense a little bit. Senator warren and I, you and I talked about this, general rudd, had legislation after we were briefed last year on the aggressiveness with which our adversaries undertook cyber operations against us. There was a sense, especially during the elections, the chinese, russians, iranians, try to undermine american elections.
▶ 1:56:27Sen. Sullivan: Let me ask this question quickly. For dictators that try to undermine U.S. elections through cyber ops, don't you think it is important not just to be in defense to allow them to do it, but go on a bit of offense? The russian and chinese people might want to know that their leaders are some of the richest in the world, corrupt, billionaires. How did they get that money? They stole it from their people.
▶ 1:56:56Sen. Sullivan: Isn't offense a good defense, to have them conduct -- when they are conducting cyber offense against us?
▶ 1:57:04Gen. Donovan: I think we need to capability to do both.
▶ 1:57:07Sen. Sullivan: Is that a yes?
▶ 1:57:09Sen. Rudd: The decision to deploy those often simply is not necessarily that of U.S. cyber command. Certainly, we have to bring the fight to the enemy.
▶ 1:57:21Sen. Sullivan: If you need those authorities, come back to the committee. That's a big bipartisan issue. Thank you, Mr. chairman.
▶ 1:57:30Chair Wicker: Senator kelly?
▶ 1:57:36Senator Kelly: On a couple of topics that senator sullivan was speaking about, I want to associate myself with his remarks, specifically for general rudd here. And we spoke about this in my office.
▶ 1:57:51Senator Kelly: The offensive cyber, the using messaging bots, russian, chinese, iranians attacking us, attacking our, specifically before elections. The amount of incoming without a response from the U.S. government, I find it rather disturbing. We have talked about this a bit on the committee and also on the intelligence committee. We need to have a better plan.
▶ 1:58:23Senator Kelly: There needs to be some form of deterrence. We cannot just sit here and take it, which is what I've seen after being here for five years in the U.S. senate. I would like to see another man as well. If you would like the authority, please come to us. And then on the other front that I will get to in a second, the national security strategy, for general donovan and for both of you, thank you for your service and for being here.
▶ 1:58:55Senator Kelly: Janitor -- general donovan, september king brought up the september 2 strike. I want to encourage you to get as much information as you can about that. Take a look at the video. Think about the decision-making process that went into those operations. Think about who was in the room. And then make your own evaluation. Is that how you would have expected that day to go? Or do you think that you need to make some changes, as the future commander of southcom?
▶ 1:59:25Senator Kelly: I want to encourage you to do that. We have a lot of concerns. There are some concerns on the other side of the aisle as well. We have a lot of concerns, I do, personally, about these kinds of operations, which I have been involved in before. On the national security strategy front, do you think that as the next commander of southcom, do you think we need a battle group in the caribbean permanently, full-time?
▶ 1:59:55Gen. Donovan: Senator, if confirmed, looking at the task at hand to determine whether we need that capability in place full-time. Until I get on the ground there and look at the tasks that I'm not aware of right now, I couldn't determine whether or not we need one or not. But that is my intention, once confirmed, in the planning process, to address the tasks in place.
▶ 2:00:22Sen. Kelly: Do you expect that because of this pipit to the western hemisphere that southcom , this year, is going to have to be much different than southcom last year?
▶ 2:00:34Gen. Donovan: Yes, I do.
▶ 2:00:36Sen. Kelly: So, you expect to need more staff and, with your experience at indo pacom -- actually, that was general rudd. But you certainly understand the push and pull, here. Taking resources from somewhere else and it needs to be the consideration.
▶ 2:00:58Sen. Kelly: Your job is southcom, and I get that and if we will be consistent with national security strategy, which by the way I don't agree with, there will need to be changes that southcom, and I want you to be thoughtful about that.
▶ 2:01:13Sen. Kelly: We talked a little bit in my office about how it was reported that your predecessor reported in the press, and I was not able to verify that this actually happened, where admiral halsey was told that he should carry out orders and not ask any questions.
▶ 2:01:40Sen. Kelly: You have a lot of experience, decades, and I cannot imagine that's the posture that you would take if anybody in senior leadership above you told you not to ask any questions. I would just like, I think it is important for people to understand that as our leadership, we put people in these senior roles and they will have a collaborative approach with their leadership.
▶ 2:02:09Sen. Kelly: I don't know if you want to comment on that.
▶ 2:02:11Gen. Donovan: It is how I've let my life from second lieutenant to lieutenant general. Asking the hard questions. If the joint force members that we lead, we owe it to them to ask the hard questions.
▶ 2:02:26Sen. Kelly: You won't put up with someone above you tell you not to ask any questions?
▶ 2:02:31Gen. Donovan: Senator, I will continue to perform and lead like I have.
▶ 2:02:37Chair Wicker: Thank you very much. Senator schmitt?
▶ 2:02:44Senator Schmitt: Congratulations to you both for your nominations in service to this country. For most of our nation history, the truth has been recognized as security beginning in the wet -- western hemisphere. Neglecting our home neighborhood, as we have for the last 30 years, threats arrived at our border, at our communities, in the lives of those we represent, and we are living with those consequences.
▶ 2:03:12Senator Schmitt: Transnational criminal organizations move people and drugs with state actors. Fentanyl, cocaine, killing tens of thousands each year. Violent networks operating openly inside of U.S. cities. This is not a theoretical problem. It's a direct assault on the safety and sovereignty of the american people.
▶ 2:03:34Senator Schmitt: At the same time, hostile state actors in the hemisphere are partnering with criminal regimes and operating with a sense of impunity that would have been unthinkable a generation ago. This is a strategic failure that we can no longer afford to abide by. The U.S. cannot accept insecurity at home as we are unwilling to assert leadership abroad, especially in our own hemisphere.
▶ 2:03:59Senator Schmitt: The president has made it clear that protecting the american people comes first and securing the homeland requires securing our own hemisphere. I want to point out that this is actually a throwback to something that has served the U.S. very well, which I think many have forgotten and seem shocked that we are talking about it all again, the monroe doctrine or the understanding that we have important interest in our own hemisphere. We talk about this in my office, you are going to have an important job.
▶ 2:04:30Senator Schmitt: The security strategy laid out is spot on. We need our european allies to step up in a much more meaningful way. We have important interest here at home and in our hemisphere and in the indo pacific. I want to ask you, as the next commander of southcom, you will sit at the very center of that mission.
▶ 2:04:53Senator Schmitt: I want to explore how you assess the threats we posed, and in this one, him and the limited time that we have on narco terrorism, how do you -- where in latin america do transnational criminal organizations pose the greatest strategic threat to the U.S. right now? What would you -- your assessment be about that?
▶ 2:05:13Gen. Donovan: Thank you for the time in your office. If confirmed, once confirmed, if confirmed in the southcom headquarters, I would have to do a deep dive to give a better answer and my thought is that there are a number of different pathways in that these nefarious actors and criminal organizations can reach the shores of the united states of america and what I pledge is to look deeply into it and work collaboratively with other geographic commands in question here, as tied to north and pacom
▶ 2:05:49Gen. Donovan: , with the best military advice of one, but how do we address those synchronized threats in a more holistic way.
▶ 2:05:57Sen. Schmitt: Mexico is currently outside of the statutory alr. But there is obviously an interconnectedness around what's happening in south america, mexico, and in the united states. In recognition of this, the department of war proposed changes to consolidate north and south command under a single americas focused command.
▶ 2:06:23Sen. Schmitt: Given that strategic shift, and I know this, I'm not trying to botch you into anything, you should be taking the time to do your own assessment, but how do you currently assess that alignment between northcom and southcom, currently?
▶ 2:06:38Gen. Donovan: Knowing that northcom is doing great work on the border and dual access with norad, my focus has not only been support over the years, but also obviously if confirmed, southcom and how it is a better partner. I hope to be a part of that decision-making process, giving relief and advice for council guidance.
▶ 2:07:08Gen. Donovan: Until that point, my response has been linked tightly with northcom.
▶ 2:07:13Sen. Schmitt: 30 seconds, I know we will have many conversations about this moving forward. We are very concerned about the ccp footprint in our hemisphere. I know it was the case in venezuela. A year ago you were talking about the concern of the ccp affecting both ends of the panama canal with those sports. Leading right into this greenland discussion now.
▶ 2:07:42Sen. Schmitt: I would say that you're, I am fully supportive of you, let's continue the conversation about where china is at. This is a real threat. We can't have our greatest competition adversary setting up shop in our own hemisphere, so thank you for your services.
▶ 2:08:03Chair Wicker: Thank. Senator slotkin?
▶ 2:08:11Senator Slotkin: Thank you both for the time a couple of days ago in my little hideaway. General rod, we talked about this. As a former c.I.a. Officer who worked alongside nsa my whole career, proudly participating in operations, targeting foreign terrorist organizations, foreign adversaries, you know, I think one of the things I am concerned about over the last couple of weeks is any possibility that
▶ 2:08:43Senator Slotkin: Nsa might be used inappropriately against american citizens. You know that nsa is governed by the national security act of 1947 and executive order 12's 333 and even the law passed as recently of -- as 2024, I think that this is pretty relevant.
▶ 2:09:08Senator Slotkin: We have the secretary of homeland security, stephen miller, vice president of the united states, labeling citizens in minneapolis as domestic terrorists, talking about american citizens as if they are the enemy. You know, you will be in charge of this incredibly important organization, a necessary organization, but you will also be the guy in the room.
▶ 2:09:35Senator Slotkin: Should there ever be a suggestion that we target american citizens with nsa capabilities? So, can you answer for me if the secretary of defense or the president of the united states asks you to put nsa or military intel personnel people, tools, or assets targeted at american citizens who do not have a link
▶ 2:10:05Senator Slotkin: To a foreign terrorist organization, will you reject that?
▶ 2:10:14Senator -- Sen. Rudd: Senator, thank you for the time the other day and I appreciate the time to discuss this issue. If confirmed, I will execute my responsibilities in accordance with all applicable laws and the constitution.
▶ 2:10:28Sen. Slotkin: We talked about this. There is just a ton of law saying that we cannot wiretap, using the layman's term, american citizens communications just for expressing the freedom of speech, right. They have to have a foreign nexus with a terrorist organization or foreign power. We couldn't be more clear.
▶ 2:10:51Sen. Slotkin: As a cia officer coming in years after watergate, that was drilled into us, we never turn the intelligence community against the american people. Thank you for answering that clearly. You are going to be the guy in the room. We talked about how tough these positions are.
▶ 2:11:10Sen. Slotkin: Separate from minneapolis, the president signed an executive order in september asking the attorney general to come up with a new list of domestic terrorist organizations can set that you come up with a list I will use the full weight of the federal government to go after those domestic terrorist groups, defining those groups in a very broad way, including groups that are anti-christian, have anti-views.
▶ 2:11:36Sen. Slotkin: Not just violent, which of course we all understand that violence is not legal, but in this very broad term. She has started that process. The attorney general in november made some announcements about that. Can you help me understand if nsa will be a part, or should they be a part of that interagency team targeting domestic terrorist, so-called domestic terrorist organizations?
▶ 2:12:04Sen. Rudd: Senator, I don't know if nsa is or isn't a part of that currently. Again, consistent with the last question you just asked, it is our highest duty to uphold our oath of the constitution and ensure that if confirmed in these roles, that we execute those consistent with that of --
▶ 2:12:27Sen. Slotkin: Since the organization you are about to take over if confirmed has been without a leader since the previous one was fired, I just ask that you do that looking under the rug and making sure that we are never making american citizens question whether their intelligence community is targeting them.
▶ 2:12:48Sen. Slotkin: Let me just ask, lastly, general donovan, I've asked 14 different military nominees again, I hope that you won't be asked to do something illegal. Given that your predecessor was removed and left early, allegedly for questions about concerns over the legality of operations, if you are asked to do something illegal or unconstitutional, will you reject that order?
▶ 2:13:14Sen. Slotkin: You don't have to do it publicly, pushing back to protect those who serve under you?
▶ 2:13:19Gen. Donovan: I will, that's my constitutional responsibility.
▶ 2:13:24Sen. Slotkin: Thank you. I yelled back.
▶ 2:13:26Chair Wicker: Senator banks?
▶ 2:13:30Senator Banks: Congratulations to you both on your nominations to these important posts in the U.S. military. Communist china was the main supporter of the maduro regime and has a growing presence throughout latin america. How has china at large threats to the united states, specifically, in our atmosphere?
▶ 2:13:53Gen. Donovan: How I look at that question again, and it is a priority, but just the normal studies of life, looking at where china has infused themselves into key locations in south america, everywhere that they can gain influence, they can gain access to not only increase their capabilities or desires.
▶ 2:14:24Gen. Donovan: Specifically in a time of conflict.
▶ 2:14:26Sen. Banks: Can you talk about how the majorca -- maduro regime worked with china to expand that influence in the western hemisphere?
▶ 2:14:34Gen. Donovan: I don't have additional details on that, but I pledge that if confirmed I would need to dig in deeply to that. We could be seeing similar patterns around the region.
▶ 2:14:45Sen. Banks: Going forward, what actions would you like to see from the new government in venezuela that would tell us they are decisively rejecting malign chinese influence in the hemisphere?
▶ 2:14:58Gen. Donovan: I'm not privy or involved in any of the diskette -- decisions or discussions right now, but I think that most that you are referencing would be policy or diplomatic. If confirmed, my task is to create military options or solutions as picked or selected by the president.
▶ 2:15:19Sen. Banks: I get that. How does countering chinese activity in the hemisphere support the indo pacom mission is laid out in the national security strategy?
▶ 2:15:32Gen. Donovan: Geographically, if you look at the links between the indo pacom, pacific, south america and central america, it is clear that there are direct links. If you talk about the indo pacific, there's a line between them but our enemies don't care about those lines and it highlights our more global perspective, specifically in northcom, southcom, pacom, and
▶ 2:16:07Gen. Donovan: Cybercom for the best options.
▶ 2:16:09Sen. Banks: To the role that you have been nominated to, how can we, the members of the committee, support southcom as you try to keep us free of the control of communist china?
▶ 2:16:24Gen. Donovan: How I look at that question and have considered it in my mind, lovers of action, power, influence, taking building what they are good at, through a new look, what other tools to be have to bring to bear?
▶ 2:16:45Gen. Donovan: If you think of the information defense unit and strategic capital, are there other elements of american, I don't want to say power, but on top of military, on top of diplomatic, to come up with innovative solutions to counter even more aggressively.
▶ 2:17:06Sen. Banks: I fully support the president and think that he is right, he's ready to go after those illegal oil tankers. Can you talk about what more you all are doing to track and sees oil tankers in what you will do if confirmed to this important role?
▶ 2:17:27Gen. Donovan: In my current role, I'm not tied to these processes. If confirmed, we will be fully tied to them and leading the military options for the planning process. Connecting that power around the globe to address those capabilities.
▶ 2:17:47Sen. Banks: Many of these tankers were already sanctioned by the U.S. for their illegal activity. What is the impact on the venezuelan, cuban, and iranian regimes, when our forces try to prevent these tankers from getting oil to the market where they are going?
▶ 2:18:09At -- Gen. Donovan: At this time I have not dug into the topic, but it will become a priority of confirmed.
▶ 2:18:19Chair Wicker: Thank you very much. Senator duckworth?
▶ 2:18:25Senator Duckworth: I echo my colleague concerned that donald trump is marching us towards another war and venezuela and throwing around threats to do it elsewhere. After 23 years of service in the army myself, the lessons I learned as a young lieutenant about professionalism and a code of conduct and ethics for military officers remained with me to this day.
▶ 2:18:49Senator Duckworth: I know firsthand of the costs and blood that service members and families suffer when an administration like this one uses military force on a flimsy pretext. Justifying the legal justification on what they are doing with no realistic planning around what's next and they say it's all about war fighters and we all know it is fast to betray the war fighters.
▶ 2:19:23Senator Duckworth: Thrusting them into legally unprecedented situations and leaving them out to dry without protection. In southcom they've created questionable legal justifications with military commanders under the bus, instead of admitting that they likely ordered a war crime. Sidelining advisors.
▶ 2:19:41Senator Duckworth: The real reason we are here today is the former commander of south, was asked by hegseth to step down after expressing concerns over the murky legality of the boat strike campaign, according to "the wall street journal. General donovan, I'm concerned about how this administration might ask you to do, given what they asked your predecessor to do.
▶ 2:20:09Senator Duckworth: I want to understand how you would do that in a way that would safeguard your oath to the american people and uphold the constitution by protecting use of force and service members under your command. If ordered by the secretary to shoot who were not presenting any hostile intent, would you relay that order down to the chief of command. >> no.
▶ 2:20:34Senator Duckworth: >> let us do another example, if ordered by the secretary of defense to shoot harassing fire indiscriminately where we are not engaged in hostilities would you issue that -- issue that order. >> senator, I believe the hypothetical aspect of that question, I have to identify that that is serious by the fact that.
▶ 2:21:08Senator Duckworth: In the fact that the detail and planning process has to be made that is a significant effort and a commander led process to assure that all aspects of the operation take into consideration including the legal advice and legal counsel on the planning staff. I do not believe that situation described would be something that happened out of the blue. Those conditions had been set and leaders given authority on the rules of engagement and understand them.
▶ 2:21:37Senator Duckworth: And I cannot commit or comment on a situation that I did not plan or participate in to get to the point of decision that you reference. >> I think this is a straightforward answer and let me try to -- let me try a more straightforward answer. Do you believe it would be a crime under the geneva conventions for the military to conduct violence towards persons taking no part in facilities or have lay down their arms?
▶ 2:22:06Senator Duckworth: >> senator, again, I would like to better understand the situation being laid out in the staff's playing -- planning process before we have to make that hard decision.
▶ 2:22:23Sen. Rosen: I am troubled by that answer because those specific examples are not hypothetical. President trump pardoned a former army officer convicted of murder by a jury of his peers for taking this very action against long combatants. He ordered his servant our soldiers to fire upon three unarmed afghan men.
▶ 2:22:45Sen. Rosen: He was known to act with impunity and pointed his weapon at a young child in order to show our soldiers to fire in the direction of villagers and lied about receiving hostile fire and even instructed one of his soldiers to falsify a report and this is a man the secretary of defense calls a good guy. These are the disturbing actions that the secretary and the president regularly glorify.
▶ 2:23:11Sen. Rosen: Trump is using the term hero for the man who pose with the body of a deceased teenager and who was ok with killing anything that moves. President trump is claiming -- beginning a climate where lawlessness is not punished and it was unrealistic to ask if they ordered actions connected to world -- war crimes and it describes me.
▶ 2:23:36Chair Wicker: Senator rosen, you are our final questionnaire.
▶ 2:23:42Sen. Rosen: And no pressure for the final questionnaire. Thank you. Thank you to both of you for your willingness to serve and your service through all of these years and your families who serve along with you and for taking the time to speak with me.
▶ 2:24:00Sen. Rosen: I am going to -- there are so many serious and important things to talk about and I will switch over to cyber workforce for a bit because if we are not prepared, with our workforce, and with our assets in this cyberspace then we will not be able to meet the challenges of the future.
▶ 2:24:19Sen. Rosen: One of the most important aspects of maintaining a proper cyber defense posture is ensuring that our workforce is prepared and capable of adapting to an ever evolving and quickly evolving cyber threat landscape. And so, as you know, the cyber domain is incredibly dynamic, developing a workforce with the necessary skills is critical. We are not there yet.
▶ 2:24:46Sen. Rosen: Your responses to the advance policy questions, you mentioned investing in people and one of your lines of effort if confirmed. Could you elaborate more on what you think it should or could be doing and workforce development antalgic -- tannin -- talent management space considering the needs across uniformed and civilian workforces and I am interested in your thoughts in the long-term shaping of the workforce and what more you think you might need to do to develop this, because too often
▶ 2:25:16Sen. Rosen: We allow the near term pressures, and they are great, to drive out the longer-term objectives and views.
▶ 2:25:24Lt. Gen. Rudd: Senator, I could not agree more with you in terms of how you describe the strategic environment which we need to develop and build, and continue to enhance the cyber workforce. As we talked, it is about the people first.
▶ 2:25:45Lt. Gen. Rudd: You have got to attract the -- attract, retrain -- retain and train the most talented and best. The thing I appreciate from this committee applying the resources in the direction to be able to do that.
▶ 2:26:04Lt. Gen. Rudd: We also talked a little bit about the plan after the department is under cybercrime 2.0, and how that will put us on a trajectory and it has to build and enhance the supreme workforce that is already there. We have to expand it and do it quickly and at scale. But we have to think about creative ways other than agreements with the services.
▶ 2:26:30Lt. Gen. Rudd: This is one area if confirmed, I want to take a quick and deep assessment and come back with further recommendations.
▶ 2:26:37Sen. Rosen: In fy 25 ndaa prevent -- included a provision to help the department establish cyber capabilities to provide since -- provide technical intelligence.
▶ 2:26:53Sen. Rosen: And so, what is your understanding of the current approach to standing this up, including the lessons learned from recently completed pilot with the defense intelligence agency and how will you prioritize this, and what are your thoughts on the evolution of the threats in cyberspace? And how quickly they evolve?
▶ 2:27:14Lt. Gen. Rudd: Yes. The -- several of the committee members have alluded to or outright said that cyber is the domain that we are active right now. Some could say we are at war right now in that domain. I do not feel like that is an unfair characterization.
▶ 2:27:38Lt. Gen. Rudd: Everything we can do to move as quickly as possible to enhance our posture, capabilities and workforce that they are given the best tools they can and get the relationships not only with the department but across industry and academia that enables us for maintain the advantage of the world cyber force that we have.
▶ 2:27:59Sen. Rosen: I think it is important. I will ask my last question quickly. The president ordered operation absolute resolve in venezuela on january 3 to capture president nicolas maduro and his wife but intentionally did not notify congress and in the briefings to congress in the months prior where the administration officials were asked for a plan to remove maduro the answer was repeatedly no.
▶ 2:28:26Sen. Rosen: How would you define the rules of engagement for counter narcotics operations and what entity do you think has the final authority to approve these rules?
▶ 2:28:34Lt. Gen. Donovan: Senator, I ask to come back and meet with you again if confirmed and have the time to understand the structure of the headquarters. The missions at hand and envisioned in the future and come back and discuss it with you.
▶ 2:28:53Sen. Rosen: I look forward to that. Thank you.
▶ 2:28:56Chair Wicker: Thank you very much for your testimony today. This concludes today's hearing. For the information of members, question of the records will be due within two business days of the conclusion of the hearing. We are now adjourned. [captioning performed by the national captioning institute, which is responsible for its caption content and accuracy. Visit ncicap.org]