▶ 0:17:42>> good morning everyone. Welcome everyone. Today we have important business to do. Before I start I will tell everyone who's in the audience we are so glad to have you here, this is a public hearing.
▶ 0:18:02It is also the official business of the united states of america and as a result of that the committee has a zero-tolerance policy for interruptions or for attempts by anyone in the room to communicate with somebody up here or a witness. As a result of that, if you disrupt, you will be arrested and banned for a year. I am told we have some guests who have completed their ban and are back with us again today.
▶ 0:18:31We hope you've had the time to think about your indiscretions and will behave yourselves today if you don't. As a persistent violator you will be banned for three years. In any event, welcome to everyone, certainly secretary rubio we are glad to have you here and welcome back. The new copilot is doing just fine and the ce used to sit in. Thank you so much for being here.
▶ 0:19:00We were a little frayed we would lose you to the miami dolphins but I guess it went a different direction. I would like to start this hearing on the venezuela situation by recognizing the brave men and women who participated in this operation, the intelligence gathering, planning and execution were incredible. Only the U.S. could pull off this mission.
▶ 0:19:27That's only because of the dedication and professionalism of each and every one of our service members. Much of the work is done in secret but I do hope these people receive the accolades they so rightly deserve. I also want to acknowledge the leadership of president trump that he has shown and also secretary rubio. It's no easy job keeping drugs and narco terrorists offers streets and keeping americans safe.
▶ 0:19:55Thank you for extraditing nicolas maduro and bring him to account for his many crimes against the american people. Let me reiterate a point I made many times on the senate floor, president trump's actions against narco terrorists have made america safer. Every american should be thanking donald trump and marco rubio for what they have done.
▶ 0:20:17There are a lot of americans today who would not be alive if not for your commitment and dedication to stemming the flow of drugs into our country. The actions in venezuela were limited in scope, short of duration and done to protect U.S. interest of citizens.
▶ 0:20:39But president trump is done in venezuela is the definition of the president's article to constitutional authorities as commander-in-chief and wholly consistent with what other presidents efforts -- what they have done in actions they have taken to protect the american people from threats in our own hemisphere. President george h. W. Bush authorized similar but much broader and more extensive military operations arrest and bring panna maus manuel noriega to the united states to stand trial for drug related charges.
▶ 0:21:10In that case, president bush deployed more than 9000 troops into panama for more than a month. At the time, all leaders of the senate, including democrats, praised that move. Unlike in panama, president trump authorized a much more limited military action venezuela with only about 200 troops inside the country for a couple of hours and a firefight that lasted less than 27 minutes.
▶ 0:21:37No loss of life on the united states side but significant casualties on the other side. This military action was incredibly brief, targeted and successful. When bad guys are in the business of flying goods into the united states, drugs that kill our children, violate U.S. laws and destabilize our hemisphere, then --, there will be have to be held to answer for those actions as is being done now.
▶ 0:22:03Maduro was not recognized as legitimate leader of venezuela by president trump or even by president biden or buy most of the international community. It is a service to the world that this illegitimate leader is no longer in power. Now the united states has a tremendous opportunity before us in venezuela. Because of the complexity of this operation, there has been some confusion as to how it will be done. I've been impressed by the way you secretary rubio, explained the plan to be going forward right from the start.
▶ 0:22:32It is clear and doable and you will play that out for us today. Venezuela's natural resources have frequently been used to bolster the economy of our adversaries. President trump's actions, we have effectively cut off that supply, giving the united states tremendous leverage. After a lengthy engagements in the middle east, many americans are rightfully concerned about so-called forever wars.
▶ 0:22:57I know this administration is laser focused on avoiding those experiences. With nicolas maduro out of power the united states has the opportunity to better protect america by bringing stability to venezuela. The country has a history of democracy, capitalism and respect for human rights. It's only in the last two dictatorships that it's lost these attributes. The venezuelan people are not strangers to these concepts and long to have them reinstated.
▶ 0:23:26They have you in the president trump to thank for giving them another chance. It's our hope the venezuelan people will soon be able to hold free and fair elections for their leaders to get there, venezuela may require U.S. and international oversight to ensure these elections are indeed free and fair. Unlike their most um recent elections.
▶ 0:23:51Secretary rubio thank you for being here and I look forward to a productive discussion and with that I would like to hear the distinguished ranking member.
▶ 0:23:59Sen. Shaheen: Thank you, welcome back secretary rubio. Thank you for being here. I certainly agree with the chairman in terms of his comments relative to nicolas maduro. He was bad for venezuela and the region, he was bad for the united states. I think the question we have to ask now is was the raid to arrest him worth the cost.
▶ 0:24:25Sen. Shaheen: I also share the chairman's admiration for the military operation that took him out. But the U.S. naval blockade around venezuela and the raid have already cost american taxpayers hundreds of millions of dollars. Outside estimates are as high as $1 billion and yet the maduro regime is essentially still in power. All the same people are the country.
▶ 0:24:51Sen. Shaheen: Maduro's vice president, now the interim president has taken no steps to diminish iran, china or russia's considerable influence in venezuela. One of the reasons that has been given for the mission. Her cooperation appears tactical and temporary and not a real shift in venezuela's alignment. In the process, we have traded one dictator for another.
▶ 0:25:14Sen. Shaheen: So it's no wonder that so many of my constituents are asking why is the president spending so much time focused on venezuela instead of the cost of living in their kitchen table economic concerns. Unfortunately I think this has been a pattern across the administration. Losing sight of what actually advances america's interests and delivers results for the. Take the elimination of personnel and departments that were critical to our national security for example.
▶ 0:25:43Sen. Shaheen: These are cost-effective tools like voice of america that help us advance america's interest globally. Mr. secretary as you remember you strongly supported most of these programs when you are on this side of the dais. The administration says those cuts were about saving money. The total federal spending last year went up by 4%, not down. We spent more, not less.
▶ 0:26:08Sen. Shaheen: As a result of our adversaries like china expanding their influence and there is broad bipartisan agreement in congress that china is the central strategic challenge of our time. The president has said that as well. But we are cutting foreign aid and diplomacy tools, we are leaving embassies without leadership, shutting down counter disinformation programs, driving talent away from the U.S. while beijing is actively recruiting.
▶ 0:26:35Sen. Shaheen: I would like to point out, this is a picture of the globe, these are countries where china has ambassadors in those countries. All of the red those are china. Places where their diplomats are on the ground, except of course for china which is in blue, they don't need to put diplomats there. This map is where we have diplomats.
▶ 0:27:03Sen. Shaheen: You can see the red is where we are filled and look at all of the white where we do not have ambassadors on the ground. We are even giving china some of our most advanced semiconductors and after a year of tariffs that were supposed to make us stronger, china has posted the largest trade surplus and history. And american families are paying more at a time when the prices were already too high.
▶ 0:27:33Sen. Shaheen: Since the start of the tariff campaign in 2025 U.S. manufacturing and employment has fallen by anywhere from 50 to 70,000 jobs depending on whose estimates you look at. That's a trend that undercuts promises tariffs would bring factory jobs back and instead of creating a united front against china we are pushing our closest allies into their arms. Look at canada, whose business with the state of new hampshire has been really critical.
▶ 0:28:04Sen. Shaheen: They recently cut a trade to deal with china because they no longer view the U.S. as a reliable partner. Pushing allies away like that is not strategic competition. It is unilateral disarmament. We see the same gap between rhetoric and reality and how this administration deals with other authoritarian regimes. At a time when iran is violently cracking down on protests, the U.S. is coming to agreements to deport iranians in this country back to iran.
▶ 0:28:36Sen. Shaheen: People who will face persecution and interrogation by iranian security forces. And yet president trump told the iranian people that help was on the way. But the U.S. has largely stood on the sidelines as the situation has deteriorated. Americans are right in thinking the trump administration is tougher on our allies than on most of our adversaries. I just returned from denmark where I met with danish and greenland leaders.
▶ 0:29:07Sen. Shaheen: What I heard directly is that president trump's threats to take greenland have shaken public confidence in the united states to the core and this from an ally who first recognized the new united states in 1792 has fought on our side in both world wars in afghanistan and I heard from one danish american woman whose son holds both citizenships and is approaching conscription age she is wearing her son might one day be forced to choose between the two
▶ 0:29:38Sen. Shaheen: Countries that he loves. That kind of fear would have been unthinkable two years ago or 10 years ago. Or 50 years ago. There is no strategic objective and greenland that cannot be achieved through cooperation. The only thing these threats have accomplished is weakening trust in the U.S..
▶ 0:30:01Sen. Shaheen: That trust is the foundation of our alliances and in a moment when russia is waging the largest of land war in europe since world war ii, we should be strengthening ally communities, instead we are undermining them. European allies are worried about open conflict with the united states, canadian trading partners are turning towards china instead of the U.S. and the constant threat of new tariffs raising prices and making it impossible for businesses to invest is ever present.
▶ 0:30:31Sen. Shaheen: So, from venezuela to europe is spending more, risking more and achieving less. That does not project strength. It gives our adversaries exactly what they want. Thank you Mr. chairman.
▶ 0:30:46Chair Risch: We will now hear from secretary rubio and after that we will do a round of five-minute questions and so with that, secretary rubio welcome back to the committee. >> thank you. I appreciate it and I will be brief in my opening statements. I've submitted a written statement but I won't use it. I'll talk to guys for a few minutes.
▶ 0:31:09Chair Risch: Here we go. Suspend, you know the drill off to jail. That's a one-year ban from the committee, anyone who is persistent violator will be banned for three years. So don't know if the guy falls into the category looks like it but after three years he'll find out more productive means of employment. We have two hearings a week. You seem to have a more robust following than most other witnesses.
▶ 0:31:42Chair Risch: Anyway, sec. Rubio: there will be a couple of more. Thank you for stopping the clock. I appreciate it. And there's a lot of other topics you'll ask me about so we can talk about those including the ones that senator shaheen just outlined. Let me talk about venezuela in particular. I think we can talk if you want I'm sure your questions will be about what happened before and led up to in the operation. I want to focus on what happens now going forward. Because your about going back.
▶ 0:32:13Chair Risch: What is our goal going in. We had in our hemisphere a regime operated by an indicted narco trafficker that became a base of operations in virtually every competitor adversary in the world. It was for iran, their primary spot of operation in the western hemisphere. For russia, their primary base of operation in the western hemisphere along with cuba and nicaragua was venezuela.
▶ 0:32:39Chair Risch: In the case of china, china was receiving oil at about $20 a barrel discount and they weren't even paying money for it, it was being used to pay down debt they were owed. This is the oil of the people of venezuela given to the chinese as barter at a $20 discount per barrel in some cases. So you have three of our primary opponents in the world operating from our hemisphere.
▶ 0:33:04Chair Risch: It was also a place where you had a narco trafficking regime but openly cooperated with the fark and eln and other drug traffic organizations using their national territory. It was a normal strategic risk for the united states not halfway around the world, not in another continent but in the hemisphere in which we all live and he having dramatic impact on us and on columbia and the caribbean and all sorts of other places. It was an untenable situation that had to be addressed.
▶ 0:33:34Chair Risch: It was addressed and it becomes what happens moving forward. In previous settings and individual conversations we have three objectives, the final I will work it backwards. The end state is we want to reach a phase of transition where we are left with a friendly stable, prosperous venezuela and democratic in which all elements of society represented with free and fair elections.
▶ 0:33:59Chair Risch: You can have elections all day but if the opposition has no access to the media, if opposition candidates are routinely dismissed and unable to be on the ballot, those aren't free and fair elections. That's the end state we want, free, fair and prosperous for venezuela. We won't get there in three months it will take some time. If the aftermath of the removal of madero the concern was what happens in venezuela.
▶ 0:34:28Chair Risch: Is there civil war, two different factions start going after each other. Or a million people going after each other in the border. When the primary ways it's been avoided is the ability to establish direct, honest and respectful but very direct and honest conversations for the people today who control the elements of that nation, the law enforcement, the government apparatus etc.. One of the tools that's available to us is the fact that we have sanctions on oil.
▶ 0:34:55Chair Risch: There's oil that sanctioned because of our quarantine. We entered into arrangement. On the oil that sanctioned and quarantined we will allow you to move it to market. We will allow you to move it to market at market prices not of the discount china was getting. In return, of the funds from that will be deposited into an account that we have oversight over and you will spend that money for the benefit of the venezuelan people. Why was that important?
▶ 0:35:24Chair Risch: Venezuela was running out of storage capacity, they were drilling and had nowhere to put it. They had nowhere to move it and they were facing a fiscal crunch. He needed money to fund the police office, sanitation workers, daily operations of government. We've been able to agree short-term mechanism.
▶ 0:35:42Chair Risch: This is a short-term mechanism in which the needs of the venezuelan people could be met through a process we created where they will submit every month a budget this is what we need funded, we will provide at the front end what that money cannot be used for and they are very cooperative in this regard. They have pledged to use a substantial amount of those funds to purchase medicine and equipment directly from the united states.
▶ 0:36:04Chair Risch: In fact one of the things they need is dilute and depending on how you pronounce it, that's the light crude you need to mix with a heavy crude in order for the oil to get mixed and move. They used to get 100% of that from russia. They are now getting 100 percent of that from the united states.
▶ 0:36:24Chair Risch: We are using that short-term mechanism to stabilize the country but also to make sure that the oil proceeds through the licenses will now begin to issue oil goes to the benefit of the venezuelan people not to fund the system that existed in the past. The second is recovery and that is the phase in which you want to see a normalized oil industry. We have plenty of oil, there's plenty of oil all over the world. Canada produces heavy crude.
▶ 0:36:51Chair Risch: It's not like venezuela's oil is unique in that regard despite the fact they have the largest number in the world. It's not irreplaceable. We understand that the lifeline allowing venezuela to be stable and prosperous moving forward. We created what we hope to do is transition to a mechanism that allows that to be sold in a normal way. Not one dominated by cronies or graft and corruption. To that end, the authorities deserve some credit.
▶ 0:37:18Chair Risch: They have passed a new hydrocarbon law that eradicates many of the chavez era restrictions on private investment in the oil industry. That probably does not go far enough to attract sufficient investment but it's a big step from three weeks ago. That's a major change. We can address the other components but one part of the transition phase the recovery phase is beginning to create space for different voices inside of venezuelan politics to have the ability to speak out.
▶ 0:37:47Chair Risch: Part of that is the release of political prisoners by some estimates up to 2000 they are releasing them probably slower than I would like them too but they are releasing them. You are seeing some of the people released begin to speak out and participate in political life in the country. We can talk in more detail about all these things. Suffice it say I'm not here to claim to you this will be easy or simple. I'm saying in almost four weeks we are much further along on this project than we thought we would be given the complexities of it going into it.
▶ 0:38:17Chair Risch: I recognize it won't be easy. We are dealing with people who spent most of their lives living in a gangster paradise. It won't be from one day to the next. We will have this thing turn around overnight but I think we are making good and decent progress, we are certainly better off today in venezuela but we were four weeks ago. I hope and expect that we will be better off three months and six months and nine months then we would be had madero still been there.
▶ 0:38:43Chair Risch: Thank you secretary rubio. We will now do a round of questions five minutes each. I'd like to start I understand we are not in it -- in a classified setting but I think a lot of people had no understanding of the groundwork that was done before the actual action took place.
▶ 0:39:09Chair Risch: I was incredibly impressed with what you told me about how you, the president negotiated with parties there on the ground. Particularly the parties who were going to be in charge after madero was removed and I wonder if you can talk about that for a minute understanding that we aren't in a classified setting. And I'd like if you could say >> a few things about that.
▶ 0:39:39Chair Risch: One of the things I've come to more fully appreciate that I didn't when I was here in the senate was a number of contingencies the department of war plans for and the overwhelming vast majority of the come to fruition. There's all kinds of contingencies. One contingency that had to be planned with the fact sitting in venezuela with a $50 million reward on his head was an indicted narco trafficker. I believe it's the largest reward we've ever issued.
▶ 0:40:05Chair Risch: The biden administration had a $25 million reward on an indicted narco trafficker, the same person. Multiple administrations from both parties have wanted this man arrested. One of the options the president had before him was the opportunity of things to go in and remove this individual because he was wanted as a law-enforcement operation. Law enforcement operation against the de facto head of a regime is not as simple as going after some fugitive hiding in a closet somewhere.
▶ 0:40:34Chair Risch: It required planning and eliminating anything that was a threat to the forces going in. I want to be clear and I will share with you what I've shared, we made multiple attempts to get madero to leave voluntarily. To avoid all of this. Because we understood he was an impediment to progress. This guy has made multiple deals and broken every one of them. He made a deal with the biden administration and here was the deal he made. He made the following deal.
▶ 0:41:05Chair Risch: Pardon my nephews, his nephews who were convicted narco trafficker's, convicted already, pardon them, pardon and release alex saab who is his money man, his bagman primarily in charge of the portfolio. Release these people, he in turn agreed to release a political prisoners which he did, many of which were subsequent the exiled or rearrested and then he will hold free and fair elections which he did not.
▶ 0:41:32Chair Risch: He basically disqualified maría machado and any other candidate and window gonzalez ends up being the nominee simply because they forgot to ban him and they forgot to put them on the banned list. Despite that he loses an election that everyone recognizes. So he's made previous deals. He's broken so many deals not even the vatican has been willing to interact with madero in the past because he's broken so many of these deals. He is simply not a guy you can make a deal with.
▶ 0:41:59Chair Risch: What he wanted to do was buy three years of time until he can deal with the administration he thought would be more favorable. He was an impediment to progress. Not the release of political prisoners, not the transition of their oil industry to a legitimate oil industry. The erosion of iranian russian or chinese influence. None of these would've been possible as long as madero was there. This is one option that was available to the president after exhausting every other option to remove this individual.
▶ 0:42:32Chair Risch: Again, I'm not here to tell you these are all roses along the way into we'll all go perfectly but for the first time in 20 years we are having serious counter narcotic talks with venezuelan authorities by going after counter narcotics. By going after it narcotics organizations. We are having serious conversations about eroding and eliminating the iranian presence, of the chinese influence, russian presence as well.
▶ 0:42:57Chair Risch: There are many elements in venezuela that welcome a return to establish elation to the united states on multiple fronts. We are in the end talking about a western country that has a long history of cooperation and work with the united states. Venezuela pre-chavez was a strong ally and we hope to get back to that point. This is still in its infancy. I think a lot of progress has been made.
▶ 0:43:19Chair Risch: I was impressed with your description and how careful you were in the operation not to dismantle either institutions or infrastructures because you wanted to see the venezuelan people take that over and get back on their feet again. I think that was really a wise decision to make and and have it as surgically as it was.
▶ 0:43:45Chair Risch: The last thing I would ask about if you can touch on for just a minute, I know you spent a considerable time negotiating with the people that were going to do day-to-day operations, the venezuelans who were going to go back. How is that going and how you feel about where we are there?
▶ 0:44:03Sec. Rubio: I spent 14 years in the U.S. senate going after these people pretty hard along with many of you. I understand who they are in this portfolio from a personal level quite well so we were realistic about what we were doing. We understand geopolitics does require an in this case there are in alignment of interests. We certainly think the approach we are taking is preferable to some of the other alternatives people speculate about or fear.
▶ 0:44:30Sec. Rubio: I would say at this point I have to characterize being realistic, clear eyed and understanding there will be impediments and unexpected events along the way. What we have found so far is cooperation, respect, dialogue. It's not just me this is reported in the media, director ratcliff traveled to caracas for important items and potential cooperation.
▶ 0:44:55Sec. Rubio: I've alerted some of you that we have laura doe who was our ambassador to nicaragua to honduras will be taking over the venezuelan affairs unit first in bogotá but ultimately in caracas. We had a team on the ground already there. We had 70 locally employed to maintain that facility but we have a team on the ground they are assisting it. We think quickly we will be able to open a U.S.
▶ 0:45:19Sec. Rubio: Diplomatic presence on the ground which will allow us to have real-time information and interact not just with officials with the interim authorities but also interact with members of the society the opposition. We think we will be much further along they've been very cooperative on that front. Obviously there are some hard asks along the way.
▶ 0:45:39Sec. Rubio: We will see what the response is to those but whether it's general caine with his counterpart or director ratcliff or myself with delcy rodriguez, we've established what I think so far is a very respectful and productive line of communication through this stabilization phase and toward the recovery phase. But there's a lot of work to be done here and we ultimately will judge actions not words and that's what we are hoping to work towards.
▶ 0:46:05Chair Risch: Well done. Senator shaheen.
▶ 0:46:08Sen. Shaheen: I am pleased that we are looking at it diplomatic presence in venezuela in the near future I think that's very important. But the dea has reportedly identified delcy rodriguez as a significant actor in the drug trade. Do you agree with that and if you do, how are we to assure the american people that the money that's going to venezuela is not going to any of the cartels or drug running.
▶ 0:46:36Sec. Rubio: First of all on the first point I would say she's not indicted the way madero was. So I won't speculate about newspaper articles and law enforcement is working on it. That's something that we would speculate on. Suffice it to say this was not a normal system. We should stipulate to that. That regime as everyone understood was held together by corruption, of the glue the cap people together is not loyalty to madero. It was the fact these five guys had five separate oil fields.
▶ 0:47:05Sen. Shaheen: I understand that. I'm not defending the regime. In fact I'm concerned we haven't change the regime enough and that america's dollars are still going to drug runners and significant organizations that we don't want to have benefit from the funding that you are selling now provided to the venezuelans.
▶ 0:47:30Sec. Rubio: I acknowledge we are dealing with I told you individuals who been involved in things that in our system would not be acceptable. By no means is our policy to leave and play something permanent is as corrupt as you describe. We are in the transition stabilization phase. We are acknowledging reality and we have to work with the people that are in charge of the elements of government.
▶ 0:47:51Sen. Shaheen: Can you reassure people that it's not going to the drug cartels.
▶ 0:47:57Sec. Rubio: That's the process that I outlined here. On the sanctioned oil, the oil that requires U.S. provision, that oil the proceeds of that oil which is being sold at market price, venezuela being forced to sell is being deposited into an account that will become a U.S. treasury block in the united states. They will submit, at the front end we will say this is what this money can be spent on on these things.
▶ 0:48:24Sec. Rubio: We will submit to them -- they will submit to us a budget request we want to use this money for these things and part of the proceeds will go to fund an audit process to make sure that's all the money is being spent. That's how we intend to handle those. >> so there's an actual audit process. >> we have a couple of options. One option is to have the expertise bankers being able to do some of that option. There may be some others. We have to finalize without audit process would be.
▶ 0:48:55Sec. Rubio: We've only made one payment and that payment we did in retrospect but it was importantly that payment because they had to meet payroll they had to keep sanitation workers and police officers on staff. It was a $300 million plan. >> it's been reported the oil sold for 500 million, of the 300 million went to the venezuelan government. What happened to the other 200 million. >> the account in qatar?
▶ 0:49:20Sec. Rubio: The account yes but that's a short-term account, ultimately it will be a U.S. treasury blocked account in the united states.
▶ 0:49:27Sen. Shaheen: Will it also be audited?
▶ 0:49:30Sec. Rubio: The audit will be on the expenditures. At the front and we will say this is with the money can be spent on. I'm not talking about the other revenues they may have. We are talking about the revenues from the sanctioned oil. At the front end we will say this is what the allowable expenses are and they will agree to fund as part of the cost they will pay for and fund an audit system acceptable to us to ensure that all the money was spent.
▶ 0:49:52Sen. Shaheen: Can you report to this committee once that system is set up.
▶ 0:49:56Sec. Rubio: Absolutely.
▶ 0:49:57Sen. Shaheen: I'd like to change the topic in the time I have left because you were a member of this committee authored legislation to prevent president trump from unilaterally leaving nato. Do you still believe the U.S. benefits from nato?
▶ 0:50:13Sec. Rubio: We do, but nato needs to be reimagined as well in terms of the obligations in it. Multiple presidents have complained. I think this president just complains about a louder than other presidents.
▶ 0:50:25Sen. Shaheen: I'm trying to get a clear answer on where this administration stands relative to nato because it's been a very fuzzy message over the last year . Do you agree that we are stronger confronting china when we do so with like-minded partners and that china is still the number one threat that we face in the united states?
▶ 0:50:46Sec. Rubio: Yeah but are like-minded partners have to have capability. The erosion of european defense capabilities because they've taken vast amount of money's, of these are rich countries and because of the nato umbrella gave them the flexibility to spend a tremendous amount of revenue on social programs and not on defense. Maybe that trend begins to change.
▶ 0:51:05Sen. Shaheen: It already has frankly and I think the president deserves credit for that, for the fact that this commitment of 5% gdp to be spent on defense, but part of that strength also comes not just from having the mechanism, of the military mind but also the community with our allies. And to the extent to which that is undermined I'd like to talk about greenland and antagonizing denmark.
▶ 0:51:34Sen. Shaheen: It undermines nato's ability, the only people who are excited about that are vladimir putin and president xi jinping.
▶ 0:51:40Sec. Rubio: I would say I think our alliances and nato are something to work on. Our partners understand the importance of the U.S. presence in nato. And we understand that in order for nato to be stronger our partners need to be strong. One of the things we've explained to our allies in nato is the U.S. is not simply focused on europe, we have defense of the western hemisphere, the indo pacific and it will require us. We may be the richest country in the world but we don't have a limited -- unlimited resources.
▶ 0:52:09Sen. Shaheen: We want to have allies and partners to help us as were looking at conflict around the world. And when we antagonize our allies and partners and when we send canada to do a trade deal with china instead of coming to new hampshire for the united states it weakens our ability to confront our adversaries.
▶ 0:52:27Sec. Rubio: But our allies have to be willing to step up and capable of stepping up. Frankly many of them have not. There are countries that are still and mark ruto yesterday pointed out without the united states the countries of europe would have to spend 10% of the gdp for the next 20 years to be able to make up the hole so I do think there needs to be a rebalancing and a cooperation they've done a great job of managing.
▶ 0:52:54Sen. Shaheen: I'm not arguing that point as I said I agree with what the president has asked of our european allies. What I'm arguing with you about is that his rhetoric is undermining nato and our partnerships with our allies and that's a problem. Thank you Mr..
▶ 0:53:10Chair Risch: Senator ricketts.
▶ 0:53:14Sen. Ricketts: Some of the comments for my colleagues on the other side of the aisle are difficult to square with the record. The goalposts did not move nor did maduro change. The only thing a change was president trump acted on what members of both parties said need to happen.
▶ 0:53:40Sen. Ricketts: And did so by the way with an operation that will go down in history as one of the most aggressive and tactically proficient to be ever carried out. Secretary rubio I'd like to get to your response to a few yes or no questions. Please bear with me a moment.
▶ 0:53:54Sec. Rubio: Let's hear them first. [laughter]
▶ 0:53:59Sen. Ricketts: For years the united states is standing matter and nicolas maduro correct. >> a standing bounty on nicolas maduro. >> yes. The bounty was increased by the >> biden and trump administrations. >>correct. >> despite that did maduro remain in power?
▶ 0:54:17Sec. Rubio: Yes.
▶ 0:54:19Sen. Ricketts: Did he continue to support drug traffickers.
▶ 0:54:22Sec. Rubio: Oh yes.
▶ 0:54:24Sen. Ricketts: Was operation absolute resolve along force an >> operation supported by military. >>>> it was. Did that successfully remove maduro and his wife.
▶ 0:54:35Sec. Rubio: Yes. Great questions.
▶ 0:54:40Sen. Ricketts: Were any service numbers along force and killed >>.
▶ 0:54:45Sec. Rubio: >> not of ours. >>has a broad support for maduro's removal.
▶ 0:54:51Sen. Ricketts: Yes. Is the U.S. better off with maduro in custody.
▶ 0:54:59Sec. Rubio: Yes. And venezuela two.
▶ 0:55:03Sen. Ricketts: Right. I know you'll hear different views from this hearing but I want to at least offer my personal congratulations to you because the world is better off without nicolas maduro. A few weeks ago you briefed the senate on your three-phase plan on stabilization and transition in venezuela. Is there anything this congress can do to be helpful in executing on that plan.
▶ 0:55:29Sen. Ricketts: >> it will be in time for it on the stabilization front in order to stabilize it we will have to provide some licenses so as an example if a company wants to go down and explore the opportunity to do some economic activity in venezuela that will require a license from treasury to be able to do that and so that doesn't require congressional action but I wanted you to be aware some of these are just exploratory. The second is in time, venezuela is a very wealthy country.
▶ 0:56:00Sen. Ricketts: It's not going to require money from the U.S. to rebuild and stabilize and transition. It has the ability and has been historically the wealthiest country in the western -- in latin, and in cases. The problem is the wealth was being stolen.
▶ 0:56:17Sen. Ricketts: So part of the recovery and transition phase is ensuring that you leave a place a prosperous and free, democratic ally with the united states and friendly but also prosperous venezuela where the resources are being done responsibly, utilized responsibly and to the benefit of the people in our economy. In time I imagine we will be coming back to you with specific legislation that may be required to assist in that function. But we don't expect this will require any spending on our part.
▶ 0:56:47Sen. Ricketts: Unlike many of the parts of the world that have been involved venezuela we are not spending any money in venezuela right now other than what it costs to stand at our embassy.
▶ 0:56:57Sen. Ricketts: One of the common criticisms after maduro's capture was this would incentivize communist china to take similar actions in taiwan. In my opinion this couldn't be further from the truth. Communist china doesn't care about international law and is demonstrate that repeatedly. Just ask the philippines. Nor does it believe in international law even applies to taiwan. Most important xi jinping's calculus and whether to take action rest solely on whether he believes he would be successful or not.
▶ 0:57:28Sen. Ricketts: In this sense the tactical proficiency displayed during operation absolute resolve may have given xi jinping more pause to take than him action on taiwan. Because despite his massive military buildup the pla continues to lack experience clearly on display that the united states um demonstrated in maduro's capture. The pla leaders who do have experience just got -- at least one of them dead.
▶ 0:57:55Sen. Ricketts: Do you believe we operation to dig maduro into custody will have any impact on communist china's actions or intentions toward taiwan.
▶ 0:58:02Sec. Rubio: No, the situation on taiwan is a project he's been very clear that what he intends to do and that's going to be irrespective of anything that happens in the world. Your point is well taken, the U.S. in conducting this operation will certainly startling to china, russia and iran, to any adversary around the world because the U.S. is the only country in the world that could have done this operation.
▶ 0:58:25Sen. Ricketts: Mr. chairman if I can real briefly, I just mentioned general jeong, he was obviously very important official in china. Can you share your assessment on what that means that xi jinping purge this.
▶ 0:58:40Sec. Rubio: It's part of a pattern of the last few years which is a purge of leaders in their military spending a lot of money, some of these guys are stealing that money and are trying to address that. It's an issue internally in their system. They are obvious and not sharing with us or talking with us about any of that. But it's something we watch with interest.
▶ 0:58:58Chair Risch: Thank you. Senator coons.
▶ 0:59:04Sen. Coons: Good to be with you again. My basic question is what are we doing here? What is the goal of this hearing. As you know well having served on this dais alongside me for 14 years, this is an oversight hearing and the point, the purpose is to encourage if necessary to compel, consultation between the administration and congress.
▶ 0:59:30Sen. Coons: I just wanted to raise with you the outset of course the commander-in-chief has, under article two the power to defend the american people against an imminent threat or an incoming attack. How else would be be kept safe? But our article one power requires consultation. I agree with all my colleagues, nicolas maduro is a bad guy. There was a bounty on his head over several administrations.
▶ 0:59:57Sen. Coons: His removal flawlessly executed by american troops, thankfully none of them hurt, did cost lives of 75 to 100 venezuelans and cubans, was a dangerous and high-risk maneuver. I'm glad that it ended as well as it possibly could.
▶ 1:00:13Sen. Coons: But the point I want to make first is it was rehearsed for months, of the administration had a number of contingencies he was trying to navigate through but over the course of months when the administration was taking strike after strike against drug trafficking, in several instances where senior leaders of the administration briefed the committee and others we were told that military action to remove maduro was not on the table.
▶ 1:00:40Sen. Coons: But the campaign to try and deter trafficking was not going to include the exact military action that followed. Yet it was being rehearsed. If there was time to practice, there was time to consult. And consulting with congress is not just some high-minded principle, some abstract thing, it is a got to have.
▶ 1:01:06Sen. Coons: Look, the chairman opened by saying this was limited in scope and duration, executed flawlessly and we should all be happy about the result. That much I agree with. But our president continues to threaten delcy rodriguez and the remnant of the maduro regime with military force if they do not comply. We should know what are the policies, what is the path, what is the plan forward.
▶ 1:01:30Sen. Coons: You and I both know the long and painful history of wars that began that seems to be resolved and then opened up into excruciating, expensive years long conflicts in iraq in particular with libya and elsewhere things do not always go as planned. So consultation with congress that is truthful and forthcoming and transparent is critical. Your service in the body you knew that, you experienced it.
▶ 1:01:58Sen. Coons: I was in the room as you held to account members of previous administrations for not coming forward as they should. In order to avoid our men and women in the armed forces going into harms way, doubting whether they have the support of the congress, consultation hearings and deliberations are required. I understand the risk of leaks, that's a risk every administration takes.
▶ 1:02:23Sen. Coons: At the end of the day our framers entrusted the power of the declaration of war to this body, not to the executive and where there is the time to consult there has to be consultation. Second, I wanted to talk about alliances. I was just in europe, I led a bipartisan delegation a senator shaheen reference, to denmark.
▶ 1:02:46Sen. Coons: Our president's comments about nato, denmark and his attempts to coerce denmark into giving up greenland are appalling. They profoundly harmed our security and I am asking you to do everything you can to reinforce our commitment to nato. I was concerned you just said nato needs to be reimagined.
▶ 1:03:10Sen. Coons: Let's just be clear about that, you know as well as I article five has only been invoked once and it was in defense of us after we were attacked. Danes and soldiers from almost every other nato ally deployed and served, fought and died. And for me the most emotional moment of my visit to denmark was laying a wreath at the memorial to the danes who served, fought and died alongside americans.
▶ 1:03:37Sen. Coons: So when our presidents as we never ask for anything from nato and they never gave us anything and you suggest they aren't carrying their weight, whether it is in basess or access or troops or service, it is allies that will keep us safe in the indo pacific or treaty allies, korea and japan and australia and the philippines which will be critical to the indo pacific security against her principal threat of china and in europe I'm worried the very foundations
▶ 1:04:08Sen. Coons: Of trust are being shaken. Our democracy depends on consultation with congress that is truthful and timely and the confidence of our allies. The confidence of our allies depends on where we go next. Today in our motto is steaming towards iran. Our president is on social media threatening iran and I hope I can count on you Mr.
▶ 1:04:27Sen. Coons: Secretary to consult with us and inform us before our next actions whether against nigeria, colombia, cuba or anywhere else and I hope and believe that I can count on you to reinforce the sanctity of nato, not to reimagine it but to reinforce it.
▶ 1:04:45Sec. Rubio: Let me unpack the 3.2 touched upon. Consultation, nato alliances. This has been a point of tension not just in this administration and congress but multiple administrations. As you rightly pointed out I uh was a big fan of consultation when I'm sitting there. Now, a different job. This is a very unique situation faced.
▶ 1:05:11Sec. Rubio: The fact of the matter is the mission you were briefed on and talk about remains ongoing and that's the counter narcotic mission we continue to carry out. You may not all be fans of it obviously but it is happening and it is also happening in the caribbean basin, the good news is there aren't a lot of drug boats in the basin anymore. That's what we briefed congress upon.
▶ 1:05:34Sec. Rubio: This specific mission you've talked about one of the reasons we were her's is to see if it's even feasible so we go to the president and say is this something that's an option on the table. The truth is this mission could not have been briefed to congress because it wasn't even in the realm of possible until very late in december when when all the efforts to negotiate with maduro had failed and the president responded -- was finally present of these options. It was also a trigger-based operation.
▶ 1:06:02Sec. Rubio: It may never happen, it required a number of factors to all align at the right place in the right time in a very limited window and it wasn't clear that was possible. There's also the aspect which I do not control which is to deference to the department of war on operation security. Despite the fact we kept this quite constrained the truth of the matter is this wasn't. We now know it was leaked by a contractor at the department of war. That would've endangered the lives of people or would have probably canceled the ability to carry out the mission.
▶ 1:06:32Sec. Rubio: This is a real tension and one that I'm doing the best I can to try and manage within the constraints of two things. Operational security and decisions being made. There are multiple contingencies for events all over the world including some but none of us think will come to fruition. In this case one of the reasons you are hearse in advance is to know whether it's even possible or doable. And the risks associated with it. So you can present options to the president who ultimately makes these decisions.
▶ 1:06:59Sec. Rubio: In the case of reimagined nato was certainly essay that not because its purpose is reimagined but its capabilities have to be reimagined. Let me give you an example. There's a lot of talk about security guarantees and if something in general agreement. But those security guarantees basically involve the deployment of a handful of european troops primarily french and u.k. And the U.S. backstop.
▶ 1:07:24Sec. Rubio: In fact the security guarantee is not -- and I'm not diminishing the fact that some countries in europe are willing to place troops in a in a post war ukraine. What I'm pointing out is that is irrelevant without the backstop. And the reason why you need this backstop is because our allies and partners have not invested enough in their own defense capabilities over the last 20 or 30 years. Hopefully that will change and hopefully that is changing. In some cases in particular countries it's already changed.
▶ 1:07:55Sec. Rubio: This is a fact we cannot ignore. Nato will be stronger if our allies are more capable especially in here's the reality. We have interests all over the world. We have interest in the middle east, and the western hemisphere, we must certainly have interest in the indo pacific a number of you have pointed out china is a chief challenge. We can have the same soldiers or the same ships in both europe and in the indo pacific. We have to pick.
▶ 1:08:20Sec. Rubio: No matter how many we build, no matter how any capabilities we grow we will have to make these adjustments and the stronger our partners are in nato the more flexibility the U.S. will have to secure interests. That's not an abandonment of nato. That is a reality of the 21st century. In the case of greenland. We are in a good place right now we had excellent meetings with the general secretary of nato.
▶ 1:08:45Sec. Rubio: In fact even as I speak to you now there will be some technical level meetings between them and our partners in greenland and denmark on this issue. I think we have a place of process that will bring us to a good outcome for everyone. The president's interest on greenland is clear it's a national security interest, it's a long-standing interest that predates this administration. It's one or allies acknowledge is real. I think we will get some been positive done, will begin that process in a straightforward way there we are regular process.
▶ 1:09:15Sec. Rubio: We will try to do it in a way that isn't like a media circus every time these conversations happen. It creates more flexibly on both sides to arrive on a positive outcome. I think we will get there. I thought it was important and noteworthy despite your concerns the president had a speech in davos made clear the U.S. was not going to use force or military force in greenland. I think we will wind up in a good place. We have work to do but I think we will lined up in a good place. I think you hear the same from my colleagues in europe.
▶ 1:09:43Sec. Rubio: >> the gang of eight has never leaked, so it's critical you consult with congress for us to be safe our allies have to trust us and for this committee to do our work we have to trust you. Let's work together to restore that.
▶ 1:09:58Chair Risch: Senator mccormick.
▶ 1:10:01Sen. Mccormick: . Defending interest in the face of russian iranian and chinese encroachment in the western hemisphere is key to the trump corollary of the monroe doctrine. Venezuela's new leader in her public commentary at least defends the ties to russia iran and the prc and has said this week had enough of U.S.
▶ 1:10:22Sen. Mccormick: Interference so beyond the oil leverage which you talk about in your testimony, what steps is the administration taking to demand from the interim government what incentives in place to ensure that they prevent malign actors for organizations from continuing to have influence and safe haven in venezuela. >> there is leverage.
▶ 1:10:48Sen. Mccormick: I think anything that sanctioned in venezuela in order for them to normalize it would require cooperation with the united states. But it's not just leverage it's also the national interest. It's an alignment of interests. The united states will be a far better partner for a future venezuelan government that's free and democratic and even for the current than some of the partners that signed up.
▶ 1:11:11Sen. Mccormick: Frankly I think it's not in venezuela's interests to have an iranian present or the sale of iranian weaponry or anything like that to their country. We think and can argue that some of these criminal elements which they've allowed to act with impunity and parts of their country is a deal with the devil. In the short term it provided revenues to some corrupt regime officials but in the long term was created real destabilization not just them by the way but also for columbia.
▶ 1:11:37Sen. Mccormick: The fark dissidents and elm operate from venezuelan territory they control venezuelan territory. Some of that was deals with individuals allied with the regime because they made money off that. We don't think that's in the long-term interest. What's been expressed to us by leaders of the interim authorities is they agree.
▶ 1:11:58Sen. Mccormick: You think there's a process.
▶ 1:12:00Sec. Rubio: We all have politics even in place like that. We are going to judge based on actions not words. That's going both ways. If you don't do these great things you didn't do them or you can say I won't do these great things but if you do them you did them.
▶ 1:12:18Sec. Rubio: I think we've made I think we can point to some things now but show you just in his example, within two and half weeks of maduro's removal they passed reforms for the hydrocarbon laws which basically roll back many of the chavez era restrictions on private ownership and investment in their country. It doesn't go far enough it probably needs to do more but that's extraordinary. But never would've happened two or three weeks ago and certainly not when maduro was still there. These are signs of progress.
▶ 1:12:49Sec. Rubio: Do they still have political prisoners, they do but many are increasingly being released every day and summer being released and beginning to speak out again and we will watch how they are treated and how that happens because that will be part of that.
▶ 1:13:03Sen. Mccormick: This long history of of very sordid history for outside investors coming into venezuela. The president and you had a meeting with our energy leaders in the oval office to talk about the opportunity to invest in their was worried about safety of investing. What steps beyond what you just described in terms of the hydrocarbon law, security guarantees for workers.
▶ 1:13:30Sen. Mccormick: Any source of certainty that investors are gaining which would allow them to have the confidence to move on the opportunities.
▶ 1:13:35Sec. Rubio: The first up some of these potential investors need to get a license to be able to even explore this. And go down there and meet with people and see what's happening to make that determination. Venezuela has a lot of oil, they do. There's a lot in other places. Companies will only invest in somewhere if they know we will make money back with the profit and our land won't be taken from us and if you do try there's a contractor we can enforce. This level of certainty in terms of security.
▶ 1:14:06Sec. Rubio: That's part of this transition process that's part of this recovery process is to normalize the industry because if not they will just invest the money in guyana or in some other part of the world. They will not c1 it is to their benefit to have a normal, transparent process that encourages foreign investment, not just to oil, but other sectors of their economy. It is unlimited, whether it is retail or banking.
▶ 1:14:36Sec. Rubio: A country that is prosperous holds the promise of economic activity.
▶ 1:14:42Sen. Mccormick: We have heard such different accounts. The president has spoken strongly and you have as well on the deaths in iran and the horrible atrocities being committed. Thousands, tens of thousands. What is the state department's best estimate of what has happened on the ground?
▶ 1:15:01Sec. Rubio: In the thousands certainly. I think regimes including that one in iran have learned when you start shooting people in the head with snipers, it is effective and it works and they have done it and it is horrifying. That regime is probably weaker than it has ever been in the core problem they face is they don't have a way to address the core complaints of the protesters which is that their economy is in collapse.
▶ 1:15:33Sec. Rubio: Because they spend all their resources building weapons and sponsoring terrorist groups around the world instead of reinvesting it back into their society. They have taken on massive global sanctions because of that. That is what the iranian people are demanding, that they stop doing that and start caring about them and this regime is unwilling to do it. The protests may have abbott but they will spark up again in the future.
▶ 1:16:03Sec. Rubio: They have no way of addressing the legitimate and consistent complaints of the people of iran who deserve better.
▶ 1:16:09Chair Risch: Senator? >> the scope of the project you are undertaking in venezuela is unprecedented. You are taking their oil at gunpoint, holding and selling that oil in an offshore middle eastern account, deciding how and for what purposes that money is going to be used.
▶ 1:16:30Chair Risch: A lot of us believe that is destined for failure and I know you are telling us to be patient but a month later we have no information on a timetable for democratic transmission -- transition. Most of the political prisoners are in jail and those that have been let out have a gag order from the government. The opposition leader is still in exile. This looks already like it is a failure.
▶ 1:16:54Chair Risch: You say it is serious talks, the venezuelans are great at being in serious talks and almost never delivered. I will give you my three questions and hope you will answer them. I think we want to understand how to judge the efficacy of this as time goes on. I worry you won't be back before this committee anytime soon and to understand this here are my three questions.
▶ 1:17:27Chair Risch: First, reports are you have given no-bid licenses to two companies to sell venezuela soil. One of them is a massive donor to the president. Too many americans, that reeks. Can you commit that partners for future sales would be chosen for a fair and open process?
▶ 1:17:51Chair Risch: Second, if delcy rodríguez who is an unelected leader, the head of maduro's torture operation is still in power six months from now, does that mean that your policy is a success or failure? How do we judge when we have had enough of rodriguez? And third, in your testimony you reserved the right to use force again in the future if the venezuelan government is not complying with your requests.
▶ 1:18:21Chair Risch: If instance they refused to give access to the oil in the future, would this cause you to consider military action and do you concede that if you are using military action simply to try to compel cooperation from the government, you absolutely need congressional authorization for that?
▶ 1:18:42Sec. Rubio: The first question was about the trading companies, the second is about delcy rodríguez still in power six months from now, and the third is on the use of force. On the first one, here's the problem we face. The problem we face in the short term is they had no place to put oil, they were running out of storage capacity.
▶ 1:19:05Sec. Rubio: The only way to move the market to oil quickly is to plug into the two primary trade companies, that is not the permanent outcome, that is a short-term fix to a short-term problem. They brought in tankers and have tankers sitting offshore to hold oil. At some point their capacity to produce will be shut down. The long-term plan is not those two companies.
▶ 1:19:30Sec. Rubio: The long-term plan is for them to have a normal energy program selling directly to refineries and companies exploiting and exploring it. Chevron has operations there that never stop. They don't need those trading companies. Those trading companies to work a short-term fix because we wanted to prevent societal collapse. On the second point about her still being in power, this is not unprecedented.
▶ 1:20:00Sec. Rubio: I can point to spain, paraguay of places where there was a transition from an autocratic regime to a democratic regime and it took time. I can't give you a timeline, it can't take forever, it's not even been four weeks.
▶ 1:20:15Sen. Murphy: A year, two years?
▶ 1:20:17Sec. Rubio: We need to be much further along six months from now, even three months from now. It cannot look like what today looks like. I can probably give you a better answer when we probably have people on the ground interacting in daily basis.
▶ 1:20:41Sec. Rubio: It's one thing for me to pick up the phone and talk to delcy rodríguez three times a week and it is another person on the ground talking to civil society and engaging with interim authorities. We want to see quick progress. As he said, it's unprecedented. Before this, this was stagnant. We had spent 14 years involved in some of those efforts, 14 years trying to change the dynamic in venezuela.
▶ 1:21:10Sec. Rubio: This is the first time in over a decade that we see even the glimmer of an opportunity to change conditions. A lot of that will depend on us and a lot of that will depend on them and the rest of venezuelan society. How quickly can we get the venezuelans who want to go back to venezuela back to venezuela? We recognize that, that that is critical.
▶ 1:21:35Sec. Rubio: We expect to be further along and if we are not, we will tell you. In use of force, the president never rules out his options to protect the united states. With full certainty we are not postured to nor do we intend or expect to take military action in venezuela at any time. The only military presence you will see in venezuela is our marine guards at the embassy.
▶ 1:22:03Sec. Rubio: That said, if an iranian drone factory pops up, the president retains the option.
▶ 1:22:09Sen. Murphy: In your testimony you suggest you would use force to compel cooperation, for instance with oil sales. You agree you have to come to congress to get authorization if you are simply using force to try to compel cooperation.
▶ 1:22:25Sec. Rubio: There are two things. Under the war powers act, if we are going to be involved somewhere, that will put our sustained involvement, we have to notify your 48 hours with after-the-fact and in 60 days we have to come to congress. We don't anticipate either of these things having to happen.
▶ 1:22:49Sec. Rubio: If we tell them we don't want to see drones in iran pointed at the united states are threatening our forces or our presence in the region or our allies in the region and they refuse to comply, the president does reserve the option to eliminate that threat and self-defense. We don't anticipate it, but it could happen. On the contrary, we had to take military action to set us back on these other things. Nila terry action is not good for recovery and transition. That is not our goal here.
▶ 1:23:21Sec. Rubio: I think it would require the emergence of an imminent threat of the kind that we do not anticipate at this time. They get a vote on that too.
▶ 1:23:31Chair Risch: Senator? >> Mr. secretary, congratulations. What you have demonstrated in the past year's peace through strength. We talk a lot about venezuelan oil. I focus on energy going to china. Three quarters of the energy from venezuela went to china. They got it at deep discounts. Boil for loan deals.
▶ 1:23:59Chair Risch: Since the start of this blockade , crude shipments to china have fallen dramatically. Can you talk a little bit about the impact this has on china's strategy?
▶ 1:24:12Sec. Rubio: It is a quarantine, not a blockade. A blockade is an act of war. Can I just add something? This might be to senator murphy's question. The venezuelan authorities are now identifying ships that they want us to ground. A week and a half ago we grabbed one of the ships. Here is what happened in the aftermath.
▶ 1:24:37Sec. Rubio: Five ships took off without authorization with the cooperation of the interim authorities, we seized one of those ships, brought it back into venezuelan waters, handed it off so we are seeing cooperation on that front. Your question was about china.
▶ 1:25:04Sec. Rubio: China can buy venezuelan oil but they have to buy a like everyone else in the world at the normal price. That money is going to flow back to the venezuelan people. In the long-term our intention is it would be governed by a democratically elected government. Like a normal country. It is not just about oil.
▶ 1:25:35Sec. Rubio: We are not talking about some third world country. We are talking about a country that has memory and history of economic activity. People who own chains of pharmacies, I know some of these people. Including american retail. Not a playground for iran, russia, and china in our hemisphere. That will require them.
▶ 1:26:06Sec. Rubio: This will ultimately be on the venezuelan people and venezuelan leaders to make it happen. We will create the parameters for it. If we make as much progress over the next four weeks as we have made in the last 3.5 weeks, we will feel good about that. Arun tissot patient is to continue to work cooperatively with them. I will point out, look at people who criticized this action.
▶ 1:26:37Sec. Rubio: China, russia, iran, hamas. These were the people upset about this strike and what we did. I can tell you that in many countries in the western hemisphere there was great pleasure in the fact that maduro
▶ 1:26:51Was Removed Sen. Barrasso: Sen.
▶ 1:26:55Barrasso: . Since you mentioned iran, a lot of oil still going from iran to china. Million barrels a day last year. A lot of that money goes back to iran. Can we talk about what we're are doing with that?
▶ 1:27:13Sen. Barrasso: Some of that is --sec. Rubio: some of that ascension sanctioned oil. The iranians are also capable of seizing ships and retribution but that is something that will be under consideration. All of the ships we are ceasing with the oil are with court orders.
▶ 1:27:49Sen. Barrasso: Many of these ships involved iran.
▶ 1:27:58Sen. Barrasso: Senator shaheen and I have legislation on subsea cables. I know that sweden and finland have both detained russian ships along these lines.
▶ 1:28:15Sec. Rubio: It is featured prominently in the agenda at the g7. It will be one of the top items we will be discussing and we have been pushing it as a priority for nato to be discussing. The third is critical minerals and supply chains.
▶ 1:28:42Sec. Rubio: You can't make them if you are missing some chip that china controls, you are in a lot of trouble.
▶ 1:28:49Chair Risch: Senator kaine.
▶ 1:28:50Senator Kaine: We started this operation september 2 with the attack on venezuelan's on boats and open waters and now we are nearly five months in. Next week is five months. Finally a public hearing. Wow. How novel. Finally a public hearing. This is the first public hearing we have had.
▶ 1:29:16Senator Kaine: 200 boats -- folks have been killed, hundreds of millions of dollars have been spent, and armada has been amassed, the announcement of a new monroe doctrine. Democrats have been asking over and over, can we share what we know with the american public? But even that hearing is constrained.
▶ 1:29:41Senator Kaine: I would like to talk about the complete weakness of the legal rationale about the strikes on boats on international waters but I can't because the administration has only shared it with members in a classified setting. I can't tell you why the domestic rationale is hollow and the international rationale is hollow. The rationale has been shared with us in a closed setting.
▶ 1:30:12Senator Kaine: I can't share with you the grim details of the murder of shipwrecked survivors and open waters that we all know because we have seen the videos and we have questioned the U.S. military officials involved about legality because the administration will not release that publicly. They release the boat strike videos publicly but they had the second strike that killed struggling shipwrecked survivors even from congress for nearly three months, but I can't really talk to you about it.
▶ 1:30:43Senator Kaine: I can't talk to about the weakness of the targeting criteria being used to attack boats in the caribbean and pacific. I would encourage any colleague if you have not, go to the classified setting and ask for briefing on each strike and ask this question, what was the evidence there were narcotics on that craft? You will be very surprised if you ask that question about every strike. Even in this pursed public hearing five months in.
▶ 1:31:14Senator Kaine: If it was such a righteous operation, why is the administration and the majority in this senate so jealously protecting the details about it from being revealed to the american public? I have virginia and stop in this operation and I can't answer their families questions. Thank god we are having a public hearing five months in. This is supposed to be the greatest deliberative body in the world. Mr.
▶ 1:31:42Senator Kaine: Secretary, who won the july 20 20 four presidential election?
▶ 1:31:46Sec. Rubio: I think the whole world would acknowledge it was at mendel gonzales?
▶ 1:31:53Sen. Kaine: Who lost the election?
▶ 1:31:53Sec. Rubio: Maduro vice president -- maduro.
▶ 1:32:00Sen. Kaine: And his vice president delcy rodríguez. You and the administration have made the decision that delcy rodríguez should lead the country. Let me read you something president trump set about delcy rodríguez. She is a terrific person, she is someone we have worked with very well. Let me tell you what delcy rodríguez said the day after venezuela was attacked.
▶ 1:32:25Sen. Kaine: Governments around the world are simply shocked that venezuela is the victim and target of an attack of this nature, which undoubtedly has zionist undertones. What the hell did delcy rodríguez mean when this attack had scientist undertones? I'm assuming you have no idea.
▶ 1:32:46Sec. Rubio: I have an idea what she meant.
▶ 1:32:48Sen. Kaine: What did she mean when she said this attack has zionist undertones?
▶ 1:32:54Sec. Rubio: Let me answer in a broader context. No one here is telling you what we want to see in the long term. This is not a campaign to leave in place. The criticism -- go ahead.
▶ 1:33:08Sen. Kaine: I'm ready to switch now to talk about --
▶ 1:33:13Sec. Rubio: If I could get back to my point.
▶ 1:33:16Sen. Kaine: I want to talk about maría corina machado. Here is what president trump set about her. Won the nobel prize. In the aftermath of the attack of venezuela -- I think it would be very tough for her to be the leader, she doesn't have the support or respect within the country, she's a very nice woman, but she doesn't have the respect. What did president trump mean by that?
▶ 1:33:38Sec. Rubio: I have known her for probably 12 years.
▶ 1:33:43Sen. Kaine: I know you have.
▶ 1:33:44Sec. Rubio: I will be meeting with her today in fact and we met with her couple of weeks ago. Here's the reality and I think with the president was pointing to and I think she would acknowledge this.
▶ 1:33:56Sen. Kaine: Very disappointed in those comments and so were venezuelans.
▶ 1:34:00Sec. Rubio: She didn't share that with me but I would share this with you, the president is acknowledging that today whether we like it or not the elements of control in that country, the people with the guns, the people that control the guns and the institutions of government are in the hands of this regime. We are getting criticized and people say we don't want regime change, on the other hand we are being criticized for not taking regime change.
▶ 1:34:30Sen. Kaine: You have respect for, don't you?
▶ 1:34:33Sec. Rubio: Sure.
▶ 1:34:34Sen. Kaine: My last question is this.
▶ 1:34:39Sec. Rubio: So does the president, by the way.
▶ 1:34:40Sen. Kaine: Here's what he said after that meeting, we are talking to her and maybe we can get her involved in some way, I would love to be able to do that, maybe we can do that. We will set the terms for this nobel prize winner having a leadership role. You talked about the speech in davos. Something the president said in davos. I'm helping nato until the last few days.
▶ 1:35:09Sen. Kaine: They are not here for us on iceland. Our stock market took the first tip yesterday because of iceland , so iceland has already cost us a lot of money. The president repeatedly mistook iceland for greenland, right? We are not mad at iceland, right? The president mistook the two countries for the other?
▶ 1:35:29Sec. Rubio: I think we are all familiar with presidents who have verbal stumbles. We have had presidents like that before.
▶ 1:35:36Sen. Kaine: Nice try.
▶ 1:35:38Chair Risch: I thought he did well. Senator paul.
▶ 1:35:45Senator Paul: Our founders debated extensively over which branch of government should have the power to declare or initiate war, virtually unanimously they decided what was entered into the constitution was that the declaration or the initiation of war would be a power of congress. We have many advocates who are here today who have been advocates for an expansive notion of presidential power. They often argue that wars are not really wars, that they are kinetic actions or drug busts.
▶ 1:36:18Senator Paul: I think if you reverse the circumstances it becomes very difficult for these arguments to hold up. I would ask you if a foreign country bombed our air defense missiles, captured and removed our president and blockaded our country, would that be considered an act of war?
▶ 1:36:33Sec. Rubio: Well, I will acknowledge you have been very consistent in all of these points your entire career. No matter who is in charge. The first is it is hard for us to concede that an operation that lasted about four point five hours and was a law enforcement operation to capture someone we don't recognize as a head of state, indicted in the united states.
▶ 1:36:57Sen. Paul: If it only took four hours to take our president, nobody dies on the other side, nobody dies on our side, it is perfect, would it be an act of war?
▶ 1:37:08Sec. Rubio: We don't believe this operation comes anywhere close.
▶ 1:37:12Sen. Paul: Wouldn't be an active war if somebody did it to us? Boom, it is a perfect military operation. Would that be an act of war? Of course. I'm probably the most antiwar person in the senate and I would vote to declare war if someone invaded our country and took our president. So I think we need to at least acknowledge that this is a one-way argument.
▶ 1:37:37Sen. Paul: One-way arguments that don't rebound, that you can't apply to yourselves, that cannot be universally applicable are bad arguments. My next question would be, let's say it's not a war, we are going to find a way and say it is not a war, so it is a drug bust. What if a foreign country indicts our president for violating a foreign law, should we extradite our president or be ok if they come in and get him by force?
▶ 1:38:03Sec. Rubio: I think ultimately we will not -- act in our national interest. If somebody comes after a national interest like the case you described which does not exist at this time, the U.S. always has the right to act and its national interest to protect itself. Does this justify them doing it? We will always do what is best for the united states of america.
▶ 1:38:25Sen. Paul: You are exactly right, we will act in our national interest and we should. I'm not disagreeing with you at all. I'm saying our arguments are empty. The drug bust isn't really an argument, it's a ruse. The war or not a war is a ruse. It is not a real argument. We do what we do because we have the force, we have the might, we do it because it is in our interest, so we wouldn't let anybody obama's, blockade us, and take our president.
▶ 1:38:56Sen. Paul: We have had arguments about legitimate, illegitimate presidents, bad elections, rigged elections, these all kinds of same arguments that we have had in our country we have had in venezuela but what we wouldn't argue is for an indictment. These things are not idle speculation. Netanyahu has been indicted by the icc. One reasons I object to being part of the icc is we are not going to let any international counsel indict our president and arrest him on foreign soil.
▶ 1:39:27Sen. Paul: Most of us probably object to indicting netanyahu in that way as well. I think the arguments are invalid. We did get the legal opinion senator kaine referred to. The office of legal counsel. Plus they came to our caucus and talked openly about everything. I will talk about at least one of the arguments. They say this war wasn't a constitutional war therefore it doesn't rise to the constitutional notion of us declaring or having to initiate the war.
▶ 1:39:57Sen. Paul: It just doesn't rise. One of the main arguments is not enough people died. There is some number, they aren't specific, but there is some number, I would assume though I'm not positive that 50,000, 60,000 soldiers might be enough for them to call that a war. It isn't the number, it is that it happens in retrospect. That is the problem. The founders gave us the power to initiate war.
▶ 1:40:25Sen. Paul: They didn't give us the other powers to execute the war, those are left to the president. If we have to wait to see how many people are killed, if we have to wait for the scope, nature, and extent, the war has been going on for some time, it is hard to vote to initiate a war that has been going on. And we can say this war is over, but we are still blockading it and we may go back in, but there are no clear answers. We put 2000 troops in.
▶ 1:40:56Sen. Paul: The definition of war is very important. I think we have to acknowledge the problem to the argument. Calling things kinetic action is a disservice to our soldiers. You weren't really wounded in war, you don't have a medal of honor for the war, you have a medal of honor for the kinetic action. Let's call it what it is and let's vote on these things.
▶ 1:41:16Sen. Paul: But I think we are in violation of the spirit of the law and constitution by bombing a capital, blockading a country, and removing elected officials and we certainly wouldn't tolerate it nor what I have someone did it to us.
▶ 1:41:29Sec. Rubio: We didn't remove an elected official. We removed someone who was not elected and was actually an indicted drug trafficker in the united states.
▶ 1:41:38Sen. Paul: Indicted under our laws. Bolsonaro says that da silva is not really the president of brazil. Our president said biden wasn't really the president. Hillary clinton said in 20 trump wasn't the president.
▶ 1:41:53Sen. Paul: I agree with you, it most assuredly was about election but at the same time if that is our predicate then you have to come to us and say it is a drug bust and we are removing somebody, you can see where it leads to end it leads to chaos and that is why we have rules like the constitutions so we don't get so far out there that presidents can do whatever they want.
▶ 1:42:18Sen. Paul: It is the check and balance and I would argue that for 70 years we have been going the wrong way. >> thank you, Mr. chairman, and I want to associate myself with the comments of tim kaine, the fact that we are five months and and this is the first oversight hearing is a complete failure and the responsibility of congress and this committee to demand oversight and a reflection of the reluctance of the administration to engage
▶ 1:42:49Sen. Paul: With a proper consultation with congress so I hope we can do better going forward and that we will see every six weeks or so, not every five months. I also feel like the strategy of keeping these very weak arguments secret so they can't be discussed openly for the legal justifications so make them public, let's have an
▶ 1:43:19Sen. Paul: Actual transparency here in the united states of america and let's be clear about what has gone on. We had a dictator we didn't like, we replaced it with a dictator we think we can manipulate. In order to pry open that economy for oil. I must say that you did say something I liked, so let me emphasize that.
▶ 1:43:40Sec. Rubio: I'm making progress.
▶ 1:43:42Sen. Merkley: You said no U.S. taxpayer dollars will be used, no spending to prop up venezuela. Can you restate your commitment to that?
▶ 1:43:54Sec. Rubio: Yes. We are not spending money in venezuela right now. Look, the embassy operations and stuff like that. There may be some programs you might be interested in the future. This is a very wealthy country.
▶ 1:44:12Sen. Merkley: I'm glad you restated that because we will see some moment when the administration says, let subsidize our american oil companies to rebuild the infrastructure in venezuela and I must say that is a very unpopular idea among our constituents. I think you have a way to rosy sense of the oil economy there.
▶ 1:44:37Sen. Merkley: Many have said without shipping more heavy oil doing it to asia to prop up the demand in the gulf so that the cost of oil value is higher, all of those factors would have to be there for our oil companies to want to invest their own money so I think they will be coming to the administration, I think you will find some way to subsidize them,
▶ 1:45:08Sen. Merkley: But I'm glad today you said you were not going to do it and I want to hold the administration accountable to that. In terms of the $500 million fund, $300 million has gone back to the central bank of venezuela and they have exchanged it for key industry players. I don't think we have any indication about which entities got that.
▶ 1:45:41Sen. Merkley: We also understood that those funds will be brought back into the structure of U.S. control as part of our, part of our formal structure of funds. In that sense, the constitution says no money should be drawn from the treasury as a consequence of up -- but as a consequence of appropriations made by law. If that comes back into full U.S. control that you will abide by the constitution?
▶ 1:46:12Sen. Merkley: Third point is that one of the things that transpired is cutting off the oil to cuba and I know you have a strong interest in making life difficult for the leadership in cuba. Can you lay out for us what other things you might be planning in that regard and how those fit into an overall plan.
▶ 1:46:32Sec. Rubio: Yes, I will try to do that in a minute. On the rosy projections of oil, it is not rosy projection, it is either going to happen or it is not. There is no world in which the united states is subsidizing venezuelan oil.
▶ 1:46:48Sec. Rubio: An oil company will go in and say, this is the oil you have, this is how much it will cost us investing in the front-end to make money, pay back our investments on the backend and depending on the terms of that investment they will make a decision about whether it makes sense or not for them. In venezuela you have a corrupt and broken oil company run by the government that takes the money, does not reinvest at all and sprinkles it to its people to keep the regime together.
▶ 1:47:18Sec. Rubio: We wanted to become a normal oil economy. In a normal oil leak -- oil company -- economy, companies will go in and make a determination about whether or not it is worth their investment. That is the normalization process. If they do with the right way, we think it has great promise and potential over the long-term. The U.S.
▶ 1:47:47Sec. Rubio: Doesn't have to put any money and to encourage companies to invest nor is there any interest in doing so.
▶ 1:47:52Sen. Merkley: That's a point I really do appreciate.
▶ 1:47:56Sec. Rubio: I don't think that has even been discussed or considered by anybody. Your second point was, I wrote it here.
▶ 1:48:03Sen. Merkley: The $300 million being redistributed to corporations in venezuela.
▶ 1:48:10Sec. Rubio: Yeah, yeah. That is not the permanent structure we want to see. We want them to have a normal industry. We are talking about the sanctioned oil, the oil under our sanction. The first 300 million dollars moved for the following reason. We did not want to see systemic collapse. A lot of you were worried about internal chaos in venezuela.
▶ 1:48:42Sec. Rubio: A million people are going to storm the border with colombia. Colombia stood up troops to prevent it. Brazil was worried. It will lead to fighting in the streets. None of that has happened. A key to the stabilization was encouraged -- ensuring the government had enough money to meet payroll. We should not confuse stabilization with transition. The treasury is handling the structuring of that account.
▶ 1:49:09Sec. Rubio: I would prefer you to them and I can get you an answer as to what the legal framework.
▶ 1:49:13Sen. Merkley: That would be very helpful because what you just mentioned, money to payroll is very different than what we've heard about the money being used to give hard currency to keep corporations inside venezuela, which would not be meeting payroll. This is where complete oversight is required. The transparency.
▶ 1:49:31Sec. Rubio: Remember, the first $300 million because of the urgency to keep the place stable is going to require us to undertake a retroactive law to how that money was spent, but there is probably another $2 billion to the pike. We are still finalizing it.
▶ 1:49:53Sec. Rubio: The way it would look is on the sanctioned oil proceeds, this is what it can be spent on and you have to agree to pay for it to make sure that is how it is being spent. On friday, we will mark the four week mark of where this all began. This was front page news three weeks ago and today other items have captured attention but we remain focused on it.
▶ 1:50:22Sec. Rubio: That is the process we are setting up and treasury but this is not permanent. This is not the system we want to see in place. What was your third question?
▶ 1:50:34Sen. Merkley: Cuba.
▶ 1:50:35Sec. Rubio: Ok, I will tell you about cuba. >> secretary rubio, and our home state, this was very popular. Cubans, venezuelans, nicaraguans , they have had to leave these countries because of socialism and lack of opportunities.
▶ 1:51:04Sec. Rubio: What the president did was very, very, very well thought out. On behalf of floridians, thank you for what you guys did. Everybody has these ridiculously high expectations which we all do. We would love to have a free and fair election tomorrow.
▶ 1:51:30Sec. Rubio: That there was no oppression, that everyone would run if they want to run. How should venezuelans and cubans and nicaraguans look at this? How patient should they be and what milestones would you give them to say we are making progress?
▶ 1:51:48Sec. Rubio: Let's gomaría corina
▶ 1:52:08Sec. Rubio: Let's gomaría corino
▶ 1:52:09Sec. Rubio: Let's gomaría corin.
▶ 1:54:03Sec. Rubio: It's not because of the embargo, how is it the fault of the U.S. economy? No sector of their society works. It is frozen and broken. We have a glimmer of hope to change the dynamic. But that will require is smart decisions in our part and it will require decisions made by venezuelans.
▶ 1:54:28Sec. Rubio: It is one in which every sector of their society is represented and that includes many people who currently live abroad. The opposition is very diverse. There are members of the opposition. That broad sector has to be represented as well.
▶ 1:54:53Sec. Rubio: You have to have a process of internal reconciliation that allows these processes to participate in the political life of that country. You hope to have a country where all of these elements of their society are represented. There is a percentage of the venezuelan population that may not have liked nicolas maduro but are still committed to the ideology and that they will be represented in the platform as well.
▶ 1:55:21Sec. Rubio: They may not win elections but they will be involved in this and that will be up to the venezuelan people. What is the end state? We've all -- we want venezuela that has democratically elected leaders. Sometimes it is maybe not the person we did not want to win. We are not disputing petro is a legitimate a lot dead president of colombia, yet he does not always say nice things about us.
▶ 1:55:50Sec. Rubio: We want to venezuela aligned with the united states any year ago at this time, through our help in their efforts. The central base of operation and that is what venezuela was under maduro and that is what we hope to change.
▶ 1:56:13Sen. Scott: If you are a venezuelan that lived in miami, you are working hard on a lot of variables outside your control but you would say right now political prisoners are being released, never fast enough. Opposition leaders are speaking up more and more, so we are making progress and you will continue to control the oil to make sure that we continue down this path.
▶ 1:56:42Sec. Rubio: I would say we share the same goal and the same outcome we want for venezuela and we have to do it through a realistic process that has the highest chance of success. The wage of use it if you use a medical analogy, this is a critically ill patient that has suffered serious things, they broke their leg and they also have a ruptured spleen or something. You have to do with the life-threatening first and then you deal with the broken leg.
▶ 1:57:10Sec. Rubio: And even with the broken leg, you have it. -- you have a period of rehabilitation. The process is an arrow moving toward positive things. What I would say to the people is for the first time in over a decade and a half there is a real possibility of transformation and a lot of it will depend on them. There are many people living in florida and across the country who would like to go back and be a part of venezuelan economic life, many are eager to do so, they are going to need them.
▶ 1:57:43Sec. Rubio: Venezuela will need them to come back and engage in civil and economic life. I remind everybody on friday at will mark four weeks since this happened. We all want something immediately, but this is not a frozen dinner you put in a microwave and it comes out ready-to-eat. These are complex things and we have seen this play out. There are others where there is a transition from a talk seat to democracy, it is not linear.
▶ 1:58:11Sec. Rubio: It is trending in the right direction.
▶ 1:58:16Sen. Booker: Thank you for your hard work --
▶ 1:58:19Chair Risch: Senator booker.
▶ 1:58:21Sen. Booker: I want to start by saying is that it should not have taken this long to have this hearing. Fundamentally we have a crisis in our democracy right now which is the failure of congress to do its job, to provide checks and balances, oversight, do provide we have operations that are
▶ 1:58:53Sen. Booker: Literally costing the american we are not providing that oversight, what we are seeing right now is unacceptable and speaks to what I think is a growing constitutional crisis. It is a congress lying down for the administration.
▶ 1:59:22Sen. Booker: I want to pick up on my colleagues question. I know from years of conversations with you your heart. We issued a travel warning. A level four travel advisory from your department's website. There is a high risk of wrongful detention. There is an arbitrary enforcement of laws.
▶ 1:59:53Sen. Booker: When we hear from the president that he is in charge, I have a lot of concerns he remains in control of venezuela security forces.
▶ 2:00:19Sen. Booker: We are seeing extraordinary examples that the constant oppression of the people is continuing as these folks are remaining in control of the country. So I just want to know what are these severe human rights violations.
▶ 2:00:47Sen. Booker: If we are doing things to stabilize their government, if we are turning over resources and money to groups creating these horrors, that seems to me against america's values. That is something that should be unacceptable to congress on both sides.
▶ 2:01:15Sen. Booker: At the same time you are issuing these human rights cautions going on for americans, you have a president lifting temporary protected status now for venezuelans. Many are individuals that have lived in our countries for years, if not decades.
▶ 2:01:32Sen. Booker: What I hear is the outrage that you are affirming that these armed militias, we have an administration that instead of protecting longtime residents, the administration is putting people back on deportation plates and sending them there.
▶ 2:02:02Sen. Booker: Does that make sense to you?
▶ 2:02:03Sec. Rubio: The travel advisory is for american citizens.
▶ 2:02:08Sec. Rubio: Why lift temporary protected status?
▶ 2:02:12Sec. Rubio: The problem as it was granted to so many people in vast numbers so quickly without proper vetting by the previous administration that there is a real concern. There were gang members that have received it because of the nation they came from at the time in which they came. It became so big and so massive. There were criminal elements embedded in the system and the numbers were so large that the administration said it had to cancel the program to vent it through.
▶ 2:02:42Sen. Booker: I don't trust this administration and the way they use terms like terrorist. I've seen them calling american citizens domestic terrorists with people trying to peacefully protest. The problem we have right now is the administration continues to have the policies.
▶ 2:03:08Sen. Booker: People are not calling folks in for these hearings we are cooperating with them we are calling out the ridiculousness. We are taking people for years and years sending them back into that hell.
▶ 2:03:43Sen. Booker: They have american family members here.
▶ 2:03:49Sec. Rubio: On two points, we are not cooperating other than continue and transitioning away. We are not even four weeks into this thing we will have very different feelings about it in three months, six months. We are transitioning to something that looks nothing like this.
▶ 2:04:24Sec. Rubio: This is not the end state that we want.
▶ 2:04:27Chair Risch: Senator cornyn.
▶ 2:04:29Senator Cornyn: Mr. secretary, I want to expand on the question senator barrasso raised about venezuelan oil. I want to talk about the shadow fleet of russian and iranian oil
▶ 2:05:00Senator Cornyn: Used to evade sanctions and help iran remain the number one state sponsor of international terrorism and fund its proxies responsible for so much death in the middle east.
▶ 2:05:18Senator Cornyn: It strikes me that venezuela, even though it has a lot of oil, has been more involved in trying to assist its allies in circumventing these sanctions both in the middle east and in ukraine but they are also a source needed by china, can you help us understand that better.
▶ 2:05:46Senator Cornyn: Is the law enforcement operation to arrest nicolas maduro and the current status of our engagement with venezuela helping us deal with that ghost fleet for the invasion of sanctions?
▶ 2:06:00Sec. Rubio: Absolutely it is helping us deal with that because it is a complex situation you have described. Some of the oil is under the control of one entity, but you literally have a place, it was corruption and graft. Nicolas maduro set up a system that guaranteed them a profit.
▶ 2:06:26Sec. Rubio: Some people were making that from drugs, some were making it from stealing from a food program. Some were making it from an oilfield literally given to them in exchange for buying their loyalty. There is no doubt his removal. The ghost fleet exists for the following reason.
▶ 2:06:53Sec. Rubio: None of the traditional, legitimate tankers will carry that oil, they don't want to be sanctioned by the united states. You have to basically turn to the ships that are falsely flagged. They don't have a liberian flag.
▶ 2:07:26Sec. Rubio: We ceased one where the majority a lot of the shadow fleet is going even outside the system. Our goal is to rope all of this illegal oil this is an interim step.
▶ 2:07:56Sec. Rubio: This is a way to provide revenue there is no doubt that while maduro was there, we had zero cooperation but I will tell you this, since the time maduro was removed, not a single illegal ship has headed toward venezuela. The ones who hear a season are all the legacy ones that took off in the past so we have a really good handle on this.
▶ 2:08:29Sec. Rubio: The venezuelan interim authorities are helping to identify the shadow fleet ships they want us to seize.
▶ 2:08:35Sen. Cornyn: Let me turn to iran. Obviously -- obviously the president I considered the strike on iran it magnificent display of american military a power and even though the arrest of nicolas maduro was not primarily a military operation,
▶ 2:09:06Sen. Cornyn: They provided the support to law enforcement authorities as they executed an arrest warrant against nicolas maduro most of americans were really proud about how the U.S. government and the U.S. military performed.
▶ 2:09:27Sen. Cornyn: The president is very concerned about what is happening to the demonstrators in iran and there are estimates about iranian demonstrators who may have been executed by the regime. The president has been presented with a range of options.
▶ 2:09:51Sen. Cornyn: What happens if the supreme leader is removed, what happens next?
▶ 2:09:59Sec. Rubio: Their situation is divided between the supreme leader. And then you have these because I elected officials, the ones who sit on television part of their political branches but have to run everything they do by the supreme leader so I don't think anyone can give you a simple answer about what happens next. Hoping there would be a transition.
▶ 2:10:28Sec. Rubio: I would imagine it would be far more complex because you were talking about a regime in place for a very long time so that will require careful thinking. On the issue of our presence in the region, here's the baseline. We have 30,000 to 40,000 american troops stationed across eight or nine facilities in that region, all are within the reach of an array of thousands of iranian one-way uav's and short
▶ 2:11:00Sec. Rubio: Range ballistic missiles. We have to have enough force and power in the region on a baseline to defend against that possibility. That at some point as a result of something that they decide to strike at our troop presence in the region. If we have indications that they're going to attack our personnel in the region.
▶ 2:11:27Sec. Rubio: We also have agreements that require us to have a force posture in the region so I think it is wise and prudent to have a force posture in the region that could respond it is to posture against could be an iranian
▶ 2:12:00Sec. Rubio: Direct. The economy is collapsing.
▶ 2:12:10Chair Risch: Do I understand you are yielding to senator duckworth? Senator van hollen. I can yield. Senator duckworth.
▶ 2:12:21Senator Duckworth: I think my colleagues. They are being very kind. Mr. secretary, last march, the president invokes the alien enemies act, a notorious wartime law last years for japanese internment, he said he was responding to the maduro supposedly or other acts of war against the united states, but in recent weeks you come of the department of justice and friends across the aisle have said we are not at war with venezuela.
▶ 2:12:53Senator Duckworth: Secretary rubio, if that is true and we are not at war with venezuela, will you advise the president to rescind his implication of the wartime alien enemies act?
▶ 2:13:02Sec. Rubio: We know for a fact that tren de aragua is a very dangerous again and I believe I may have been the first member --
▶ 2:13:11Sen. Duckworth: This is a wartime act, Mr. secretary. Are we currently at war with venezuela?
▶ 2:13:16Sec. Rubio: No, we are not in a state of war in venezuela.
▶ 2:13:21Sen. Duckworth: The supreme court has described the alien enemies act as a wartime act. When it was used to intern thousands of innocent civilians. Are you really arguing that the president should be able to argue and internment law?
▶ 2:13:39Sec. Rubio: You are talking about the state of venezuela.
▶ 2:13:43Sen. Duckworth: The president invokes the alien enemies act.
▶ 2:13:47Sec. Rubio: The president was talking about these gangs and these narco trafficking groups waging war on the united states. These groups have waged war on the united states. Tren de aragua is not just a criminal gang presence in our a criminal gang responsible, directly responsible.
▶ 2:14:05Sen. Duckworth: The trump administration has acknowledged the vast majority of the men in it rounded up have no criminal records whatsoever. Over 75%.
▶ 2:14:16Sec. Rubio: Who have we tortured? We have not tortured anybody. We do not want gang members in our country. If the administration is willing to lie about who it is targeting under this law, or protections to people have against abuse? Will you advise the president to resend his invocation of the wartime enemies act?
▶ 2:14:41Sec. Rubio: Of course not. These are enemies of the united states. When it comes to narco trafficking groups and criminal gangs targeting the united states --
▶ 2:14:52Sen. Duckworth: We are in a state of war?
▶ 2:14:54Sec. Rubio: We are confronting them in a war like setting. They are enemy combatants. We are confronting the irregular groups and that is one of the challenges of the new century in this hemisphere, that these nonstate actors who possess a state like capabilities in terms of weaponry pose a grave danger to the united states. I don't think any american --
▶ 2:15:17Sen. Duckworth: With all the other laws when it comes to warfare? You are saying that he can invoke this wartime power.
▶ 2:15:31Sec. Rubio: I'm here to discuss foreign policy and department of state. I think your questions are better directed -- I would tell you that -- you're asking me questions that --
▶ 2:15:43Sen. Duckworth: Only invoked in the war of 1812, world war I, and world war ii and this president is invoking it.
▶ 2:15:50Sec. Rubio: You are asking about the domestic application of a law that is best --
▶ 2:15:54Sen. Duckworth: It is not a complication.
▶ 2:15:57Sec. Rubio: You're asking me something to apply in the department of justice in terms of domestic application. The united states is certainly confronting terrorist and criminal organizations operating in a hemisphere that pose a danger to the united states. Anyone who believes gangs that flood our country federal or cocaine are not threats to the united states is not living in reality and does not reflect the opinion of most americans.
▶ 2:16:20Sen. Duckworth: The president said he was ready to put american troops in venezuela again so we are at war right now. Things do not go well -- a military option -- what is your criteria for returning to a military operation?
▶ 2:16:37Sec. Rubio: I do not recall the president saying he would put troops in venezuela.
▶ 2:16:42Sen. Duckworth: The president has said he was ready to put american troops in venezuela.
▶ 2:16:46Sec. Rubio: He has said he retains the right as commander-in-chief. Maybe that involves troops. Maybe that involves airpower. We do not anticipate that being the case.
▶ 2:16:56Sen. Duckworth: I where you are playing fast and loose with our nation. I want to conclude by saying --
▶ 2:17:03Sec. Rubio: I give you testimony of how well things are moving forward.
▶ 2:17:07Sen. Duckworth: You said in six or nine months you have to do something else and the present has not ruled out the military option. The president has wartime powers. So it is reasonable for me to ask you --
▶ 2:17:19Sec. Rubio: I gave a specific example. Every president maintains the right to defend the united states against a threat. Iranian drones deployed in venezuela could threaten the united states -- we will address that. But we hope we do not get to that point. We do not expect to. We are not trending in that direction.
▶ 2:17:39Sec. Rubio: That is fact, but -- we do not need to be in another forever war and that is the pathway we are going toward. You need to say -- you are not going to ask him to resend his invocation of the american enemies act. That puts americans in jeopardy. Let me say something about his comments about nato allies.
▶ 2:18:08Sec. Rubio: When I served in iraq, there were polish forces there with us, british forces with us, spanish forces with us. I landed in spain, which came under attack by insurgents. Polish troops have worked with the illinois national guard for 30 years and died in afghanistan. Our nato allies have stood besides us -- to maintain the strength of that alliance.
▶ 2:18:33Sec. Rubio: All the president wants --
▶ 2:18:35Chair Risch: Time is up you're not making progress here.
▶ 2:18:39Sec. Rubio: The president wants our allies to have more capabilities to be involved in operations of necessary.
▶ 2:18:45Sen. Duckworth: That is not what he said. He said they stayed behind and did not come to our defense.
▶ 2:18:50Sec. Rubio: Not every country participated.
▶ 2:18:54Sen. Duckworth: Denmark suffered some of the greatest military casualties.
▶ 2:18:58Sec. Rubio: Many of our allies have stepped forward and provided assistance and others do not have the capability to do it now or in the future.
▶ 2:19:05Sen. Duckworth: That is now the president said. >> I want to thank you for reaching out to me at the execution of the arrest warrant against nicolas maduro. I can tell when we talked that you had been up all night and it was kind of you to reach out to me and describe what had happened. I have long been a believer in the fact that the united states has been blessed by geography.
▶ 2:19:37Sen. Duckworth: God and nature have blessed the american continent with two vast oceans, want to our east and want to our west. They have protected us from the old powers of other parts of the world. We should use those to our advantage. At times in our past, we have. We have somewhat neglected the western hemisphere in recent decades and I am pleased that you and president trump have been refocusing on the western hemisphere.
▶ 2:20:04Sen. Duckworth: As we look at burden sharing and other parts of the world and pivot focus back to our own hemisphere, tell me what that looks like. Tell me what it looks like to orient some of our burden sharing toward our own hemisphere.
▶ 2:20:21Sec. Rubio: You are seeing some of it now. Our hope is eventually not to have a military presence of the kind you have seen in the caribbean to deal with this acute matter, but it was surprising in the first place. If the ships and assets were deployed in the indo pacific or mediterranean or middle east somewhere, no one would blink an eye. The fact they were deployed in the western hemisphere was a shock to everybody because we have not done it.
▶ 2:20:49Sec. Rubio: South, has rarely had assets permanently deployed to them. They may have been transiting through but not pertinently deployed to deal with an acute matter. These things become interrelated at some point but they are separate in ways and it is part of what I was trying to explain with senator duckworth.
▶ 2:21:06Sec. Rubio: We have a reality in our region of these transnational criminal terrorist organizations that in many cases possess weapons that you ascribe to a nationstate, not a gang, who pose a grave threat to the national security of the united states but also to the stability of the region. If you walk through the region, what is the primary threat in columbia? Transnational criminal organizations. These groups have to be confronted forcefully. What is the threat in haiti?
▶ 2:21:38Sec. Rubio: Criminal gangs that control territory and threaten the ability to form a government there in that regard so it is endemic through the region and it impacts the united states through mass migration, drug trafficking, and related criminal organizations so we need to have -- confront that and provide assistance and conduct -- in conjunction with other partners.
▶ 2:21:58Sec. Rubio: We need countries willing to cooperate and work on these things the way ecuador is doing and the way jamaica -- the way we historically have dealt with columbia and continue to do in respect so we hope venezuela will be one of them.
▶ 2:22:14Sec. Rubio: Imagine a future or current interim authorities or a future legitimate government of venezuela cooperated with the united states against tren de aragua, against the drug trafficking organizations, how much easier it would be to confront these challenges we face. But will require some force posture in the region. If your question is the context of nato, the area we have to recognize as we need a presence in the indo pacific.
▶ 2:22:43Sec. Rubio: Many of you are being told by our allies they want to see a sustained commitment of the united states to the region. We have obligations and needs that we need to address when it comes to the middle east. We have a growing threat of the rise of terrorism potentially in the african continent and of course he pointed to the western hemisphere so that does not mean we are abandoning nato or europe.
▶ 2:23:05Sec. Rubio: It does mean we will have to readjust our force posture to deal with these realities and I keep making the point of the stronger our allies and more capable our allies in nato are, the more flexibility we will have.
▶ 2:23:19Sec. Rubio: We will still be there and have some of the largest military deployments in the world with our allies, but we are going to need flexibility to do this over time and we have told this to our allies and we told them there would be no surprises in most of them understand that and that is why they are moving quickly in many cases to rearm and reinvigorate themselves.
▶ 2:23:42Sen. Lee: We have seen trying to gain significant footholds in south america and central america and part of the caribbean. Sometimes this occurs simultaneously with and in the same places as drug cartels, places where drug cartels are the strongest. How would you describe the connection between those things? Are they correlated or causal?
▶ 2:24:08Sec. Rubio: Usually when you have strong narco or drug trafficking organizations you have weak states that are in some cases vulnerable to corruption so the general chinese practice has been you go into a country, offered to build a bunch of stuff, that you end up building poorly, and to get that contract you do it as a market share thing, because it puts you in place at the expense of everybody else.
▶ 2:24:33Sec. Rubio: You sometimes have to bribe people to get that and it gives you a foothold into the country and allows you to expand into other sectors. While way -- huawei shows up with a deal so they go with it. It provides a product that is not the best but good enough and they can afford it and it is subsidized by the chinese government. We have seen that play out.
▶ 2:24:58Sec. Rubio: It became acute in the panama casale -- canal zone where a chinese company ended up owning both ports of the canal, which is of concern to the united states so I do think you have seen their presence largely through economic means over time create leverage over nations who have become trapped in debt or bad contracts they cannot get out of and always in sectors valuable to china that include where earths, critical minerals,
▶ 2:25:29Sec. Rubio: Energy, and infrastructure. >> I want to ask about the oil. Under U.S. law, funds received by the government must be deposited with the treasury. You testified the funds are being held short-term in qatar and will move to treasury blocked accounts. What is the statutory authority for the administration relying on qatar to hold the funds?
▶ 2:25:55Sec. Rubio: It is not our funds. They are in an account owned and signed -- it is an account that belongs to venezuela, but it has U.S. sanctions as a blocking mechanism on it. One of the primary reasons it was in a third country initially until we could create a mechanism to move it to a U.S. presence is twofold. We have an issue we are working through on recognition. You have to recognize a government that we do not recognize this government.
▶ 2:26:21Sec. Rubio: We recognized the 2015 national assembly so we have to find a creative way legally to meet that standard. The others creditors. If that money touched a U.S. bank, even in the name of the venezuelans, it will be seized upon by creditors who eventually will have to take care of but in the short term that would impede the ability -- ability of venezuelan authorities to operate.
▶ 2:26:41Sen. Schatz: This is what I'm trying to get at. Either it is american money, in which case it is subject to the miscellaneous receipts act and there are all kinds of things that attend to that. You are saying it is venezuela's money but according to the president you are in charge of that money.
▶ 2:27:01Sen. Schatz: What authority are you relying on to be in charge almost in a sort of receivership kind of arrangement of how funds are received and expended for a foreign country? Don't you have to come to congress to establish that?
▶ 2:27:17Sec. Rubio: No because the money never enters our hands. We only control the disbursement of the money.
▶ 2:27:24Sen. Schatz: Do you think you have in the statute or constitution the authority to control disbursements of a foreign country?
▶ 2:27:34Sec. Rubio: They have agreed to this arrangement in which the sanctions placed on the soil blocks the distribution. We have agreed to release sanctions and allow disbursement of funding as long as they're spending it in a certain way. I understand it is novel but it is the best we could come up with.
▶ 2:27:51Sen. Schatz: Is there a written agreement?
▶ 2:27:54Sec. Rubio: There is and will have to be once we transition that.
▶ 2:28:00Sen. Schatz: My understanding is the committee does not have this agreement.
▶ 2:28:05Sec. Rubio: You would not because it is a treasury matter but I can talk to the treasury about providing the information.
▶ 2:28:12Sen. Schatz: You are the national security advisor so you have a role in coordinating between departments so it is not just like you can punch this to treasury.
▶ 2:28:19Sec. Rubio: I just not -- did not bring the document.
▶ 2:28:23Sen. Schatz: You're being transparent. I think this is novel and may not even be permissible, but I do not know until I see the document and I would like you to lend it for us, if that is all right.
▶ 2:28:35Sec. Rubio: By the time I get it to you, hopefully we will not have that account anymore. It will be in a more traditional we can use our sanctions as leverage on how the money is spent.
▶ 2:28:47Sen. Schatz: Your comments that havana should be concerned about the maduro operation is fueling speculation this administration will turn its sights to cuba next. Will you make a public come in today to rule out U.S. regime change in cuba?
▶ 2:29:03Sec. Rubio: Regime change? No. We would like to pee or that does not mean we will make a change, but we would love to see a change. It would be of great benefit to the united states of cuba was no longer governed by an autocratic regime.
▶ 2:29:17Sen. Schatz: You know what we mean. We do not mean I wish someone else were in charge. When we talk about regime change we are talking about using the power of the united states, usually kinetic but often other kinds of coercion -- I'm not even saying that is always not in our interest. I'm just saying -- I'm not asking you whether we would prefer a different kind of government. I'm asking whether you are trying to precipitate the fall of the current regime.
▶ 2:29:45Sec. Rubio: That a statutory pier at the U.S. embargo on cuba is codified. It was codified in law and requires regime change for us to lift the embargo.
▶ 2:29:55Sen. Schatz: We have not received any information on the board of peace. Do you commit to informing us about what this is?
▶ 2:30:02Sec. Rubio: It is a board of peace.
▶ 2:30:05Sen. Schatz: I will note that albania observation on, lorraine -- albania, azerbaijan, mongolia, pakistan, qatar, saudi arabia commit uzbekistan, and vietnam -- there are a lot of countries with whom we normally work very closely and with whom we are aligned geopolitically in terms of values that are not on the board of peace and so I think it is reasonable for us to
▶ 2:30:36Sen. Schatz: Wonder whether something in terms of competitive structure to undermine the u.n. Or circumvent the u.n. -- I will -- I worry a lot of our friends are not on her list and some of our adversaries are.
▶ 2:30:50Sec. Rubio: The impediment they have is it is chartered by the u.n.. It is a u.n. Resolution that created the mechanism by which the board was set up in the primary and sole focus of the board is to minister phase two and three of the plan in gaza and we welcome these countries.
▶ 2:31:10Sec. Rubio: Some have chosen not to join it because they have constitutional -- they require constitutional approval of the parliament to join depending on some leaders like a couple countries in europe that could not join until they got permission from their vote. In other cases because they're are concerned about what you pointed out. This is not a replacement for the u.n., but the u.n. Has served little purpose in the case of gaza other than food assistance so we think it is critical to have something in charge of that.
▶ 2:31:40Sen. Schatz: One final 10 second question. We are about to enact appropriations law either this friday or soon after that and I want your commitment to work with my team and anyone else who has jurisdiction on implementation of the bill.
▶ 2:32:01Sec. Rubio: We are happy you are about to pass it. Even if you pass none of the other budgets, you should pass that one.
▶ 2:32:10Chair Risch: Senator curtis.
▶ 2:32:13Sen. Curtis: Thank you for your service. You and I overlapped in the senate by only a couple days and as a result I have only had the luxury of --
▶ 2:32:22Sec. Rubio: My two best days in the senate.
▶ 2:32:28Sen. Curtis: I will tell you I am grateful for your role. I believe that you and president trump have made the world a safer place. I push back on the false narrative that we are not respected. I think we are respected more than we were around the world and so I am grateful for that. I do not know how you get around the world the way that you do appear and he must have some type of superpower and I'm grateful for the time you spent with us this morning.
▶ 2:32:59Sen. Curtis: That said, I have a basic concern that I would like to raise with you. The western hemisphere commit which you previously chaired, the subcommittee, I'm struggling to get clear information or cooperation from the administration in the state department. I suspect most of these are out of your visibility.
▶ 2:33:29Sen. Curtis: Senator kaine and I try to do a hearing on venezuela last year. We were told the state department would not participate in that hearing. We are trying to put together a hearing now on the prioritization of the western hemisphere, which I think would be helpful to the administration and we are struggling to get the state department to participate in that.
▶ 2:33:50Sen. Curtis: I could not get a briefing on the operations until the war powers resolution and then we got a briefing but did not get that because I was the chair of the western hemisphere.
▶ 2:34:05Sen. Curtis: I support what is happening with maduro and what is going on there but I think the administration could get congress to be a better partner informing us better and from my perspective -- I'm struggling to see that and I would ask you, if you are the chair of the western hemisphere, would you be ok with that reaction from the state department? What would you suggest I do?
▶ 2:34:30Sec. Rubio: Part of the challenges we face on venezuela -- on the prioritization, you will get that briefing. We can figure that out quickly. But I would say on venezuela and the drug boat operation, here is the challenge we face. This is a committee that has oversight over the state department. The drug boat operation is not a state department operation.
▶ 2:34:55Sec. Rubio: I think now that I'm here testifying with you there is a lot of state department involvement in the issue of transitioning the projects in venezuela but everything that led to that point was not primarily within the jurisdiction of the department of state.
▶ 2:35:09Sec. Rubio: These were department of war and justice operations that were ongoing so for us to struggle in those cases to provide you witnesses that could say anything meaningful on a topic that was largely from an interagency perspective in the realm of other agencies -- on other committees, I do not know if they got those hearings. I think that was the struggle in december with the hearing on venezuela policy and again now with the drug boat one.
▶ 2:35:38Sec. Rubio: On the issue of broader context of our priorities in the western hemisphere, that is something we can and will provide because it features prominently in our national security strategy and we have good stories to tell about the western hemisphere.
▶ 2:35:53Sen. Curtis: We have not been able to get that from the state department, help on a hearing.
▶ 2:35:59Sec. Rubio: You will get it.
▶ 2:36:02Sen. Curtis: We would love to have your commitment moving forward that we could have that type of cooperation.
▶ 2:36:10Sec. Rubio: I do not want you to have a meaningless hearing. If you are asking about something -- it is like having a hearing on agriculture in front of the state department. We have limited -- because of the case of the drug was in venezuela at the time -- this was a department of war function. In the case are priorities on the western hemisphere -- that will happen.
▶ 2:36:35Sen. Curtis: You mention russia, china, iran earlier. I'm very concerned as you are about their influence in the western hemisphere. If we put venezuela aside for a moment, can you talk about where we are seeing the influence of china in the western hemisphere and what progress we have made or what we need to be thinking about?
▶ 2:36:54Sec. Rubio: China specific?
▶ 2:36:57Sen. Curtis: All of them are important, but specifically on china.
▶ 2:37:02Sec. Rubio: In iran, the primary foothold in the region was venezuela and it of -- involve more than just selling weapons. In many cases, there is evidence they were providing passports. With false identities to people who operated on behalf of iran and hezbollah so deep concerns about that and that needs to stop. In the case of russia, the primary presence of influence in the region is venezuela and nicaragua and cuba.
▶ 2:37:30Sec. Rubio: In the case of china, they have a presence in cuba. They have a debt relationship with venezuela, basically taking venezuelan oil as payment on debt and reselling it because they were buying it on discount. That has ended and the debt is legitimate. A future venezuelan government will have to deal with it as part of restructuring of their debt, but in the short term that has ended. The primary way china plays in the western hemisphere is through commercial relations.
▶ 2:38:01Sec. Rubio: They are very interested in telecommunication and building and controlling key infrastructure, in critical mineral rights. They have secure leases for years because of neglect on our part in allowing them to do that and it has given them leverage in these countries. I think that influence in our hemisphere has eroded over the last year. Panama left the belt and road initiative.
▶ 2:38:25Sec. Rubio: We had new leaders in paraguay -- chile and honduras expressed a desire to realign with the united states and we have great initiatives with countries in the region who are cooperative. We have had crossword -- cooperation from the panamanian authorities, including before the supreme court that could lead to the eviction and removal of a chinese controlled company.
▶ 2:38:55Sen. Curtis: I'm out of time. I yelled. >> I want to discuss corruption in the white house. The president and his family have used the office of the presidency to pockets 1.4 billion plus dollars since he was sworn in.
▶ 2:39:20Sen. Curtis: The new york times analysis entitled trump's plundering of america indicates some of that is a result of the president selling corruption at home but much of it relates to selling overseas to make a killing for his family, including giving away semi conductor technologies to the uae while the uae pumped $2 billion into one of the trump family ventures.
▶ 2:39:47Sen. Curtis: Then there are all the other trump deals that are intertwined with tariff or foreign policy matters. From hotel and office buildings and other countries and the 400 million dollar jet from qatar. A list goes on and on. By any measure, this is the most corrupt administration in american history. We also see the president wielding U.S. power overseas in a way that advances the interests of billionaire buddies at the expense of american interests.
▶ 2:40:22Sen. Curtis: He reportedly first but the idea of grabbing greenland into president trump's mind. In the case of venezuela, president trump has said he talked to oil executives about toppling maduro and going into venezuela before anyone in congress new. We know that kristi -- in president trump's mind, it was not about stopping the flow of fentanyl. He cuts the budget for dea peer and he pardoned the former honduran president convicted of drug running.
▶ 2:40:53Sen. Curtis: And the new president has herself in long suspected by dea of being involved in drug smuggling. She is a long time communist leader, so this operation certainly was not about bringing more freedom and democracy to venezuela. The president told us what it was about at his big press conference after seizing maduro. He said it was about oil.
▶ 2:41:20Sen. Curtis: He used the word oil 19 times and never mentioned democracy or freedom or human rights. So the pattern of corruption is clear. President trump has said publicly that he had communications with folks from the oil industry about going into venezuela before anyone here in congress was notified. Simple yes or no question.
▶ 2:41:46Sen. Curtis: Were you with president trump during any of those conversations he had with people with oil interests in venezuela about the possibility of deposing maduro?
▶ 2:41:55Sec. Rubio: That is not a simple question but I can answer quickly. The president always elicits opinions from all sorts of people, including chevron has an active license in venezuela. They operate in venezuela and have even when sanctions were in place so of course he would ask chevron's opinion of rodriguez and their economy. But the notion that the president authorized this challenge at the urging oil executives is absurd. That never happened.
▶ 2:42:21Sen. Van Hollen: I'm asking whether you were with the president.
▶ 2:42:26Sec. Rubio: I could not be with him because it never happened. Oil executives were not involved in the planning on this matter.
▶ 2:42:33Sen. Van Hollen: The president said he informed them about the U.S. operations.
▶ 2:42:39Sec. Rubio: All those executives learned about this operation the same time everyone else did.
▶ 2:42:46Sen. Van Hollen: Kristi has said the opposite in public. He said it. It was aboard air force one. It is on public record. Paul singer gave $8 million toward trump's 2020 four campaign, communally through his hedge fund he has acquired citco out of bankruptcy, which is suddenly very valuable.
▶ 2:43:08Sen. Van Hollen: Did you or president trump have any communications with paul singer about venezuelan oil in the months leading to the military action in venezuela?
▶ 2:43:17Sec. Rubio: I did not and I would be surprised if the president did. That position you have outlined, which is not just him but other creditors -- we do not want to see it. It is one of the reasons we had to do this account in a third country in the interim, because we do not want it to be picked apart by creditors.
▶ 2:43:36Sen. Van Hollen: I appreciate that and we will monitor it carefully. They have been given a license for venezuelan oil worth about $250 billion.
▶ 2:43:52Sen. Van Hollen: A senior partner gave to trump in the last cycle and the list goes on and on and I have to say that when you have the president of the united states himself after taking maduro get up and say this was about oil, oil, oil, it does make all of us ask the question, whether he put men and women in the U.S. military at risk simply so he could grab that oil.
▶ 2:44:19Sec. Rubio: I think you c1
▶ 2:44:24Sec. Rubio: The only reason we used them is because in the short term we had to move 50 million barrels of oil that were stuck in venezuela needed to turn that into cash so they wouldn't have systemic collapse and the fastest way to do that in the short term is not the permanent structure. The permanent structure we want to see is a normal oil industry. Where they have an arrangement to pay or you -- royalties. Not through middlemen.
▶ 2:44:55Sec. Rubio: The only reason they were used in this instance is we had an acute short-term problem where how do we do provide funding to keep their government afloat? We allowed venezuela to use their own revenue to pay teachers and firefighters and police officers and keep the function of government operating so we didn't have systemic collapse, but that is not the long-term plan at all.
▶ 2:45:18Sen. Van Hollen: My other point is those folks who give a lot of money to the trump campaign have done very well as a result of what has happened.
▶ 2:45:26Sen. Risch: Senator daines.
▶ 2:45:31Senator Daines: I just returned from india, I had a chance to visit with leadership there and spent time with our new ambassador who is off to a great start. Very profitable visit and I hope to brief you on that soon if I might. I think if we were to pick and m.v.p. Of the west wing, secretary rubio, my vote is 40 marco rubio.
▶ 2:45:53Sec. Rubio: We have a lot of mvps.
▶ 2:45:55Sen. Dianes: Very proud to claim my former colleague and now secretary of state. As you have noted, there were numerous good reasons why the U.S. is the arbiter of the venezuelan petroleum sales with the new export sales framework the venezuelan government is looking to other options to reimburse some of our adversaries, iran, russia, iran's proxies to include petroleum byproducts which contain valuable minerals and so
▶ 2:46:26Sen. Dianes: Forth, has the administration continued -- considered expanding export controls two additional petroleum byproducts.
▶ 2:46:38Sec. Rubio: They have represented to us and we have seen it directly from secretary right is that on all of these things regarding natural resources, their preference and partner of choice moving forward would be the united states and western companies.
▶ 2:47:00Sec. Rubio: As a point of example, today they used to get 100% in very heavy crude so it has to be mixed with light crude so it has to make it refine a bull and movable. They preferred to have ours. Number two it is higher-quality. Today 100% of that is coming from the united states.
▶ 2:47:28Sec. Rubio: They were mining for gold and silver and it was being exported almost entirely. We believe they were using that as a laundering operation. We are on the verge of the process were that will be sold in a way that will not go to finance and support. The end goal in all of this is not to spend any american money and for venezuela to have a normal, legitimate economy.
▶ 2:48:00Sec. Rubio: That is not benefiting cronies or geopolitical adversaries. So far, the interim authorities have expressed a desire to cooperate with us on all of these fronts. We have faced no impediments to date.
▶ 2:48:19Sen. Dianes: We think there may be some workarounds. And it is something we can talk with secretary wright, which would be something they are trading right now to our adversaries. Thank you. We are off to a great start. We were playing it very well. I want to pivot now to eu energy.
▶ 2:48:50Sen. Dianes: Next we are going to have a hearing, we are looking to have a conversation about hindering energy security benefiting the russians and hindering alternative supply chain's. Here is my question, as russia continues the war in ukraine, how important is it for europe to develop a pro-energy posture to ensure they have energy security?
▶ 2:49:13Sec. Rubio: I would argue one of the reasons we have a war in ukraine is because russia thought they could get away with it. They said the europeans are too dependent on us for energy so I think it served as a contributing factor to the were happening among others obviously.
▶ 2:49:32Sec. Rubio: The president has repeatedly said, we love europe, we want europe to be strong and we share a lot of history in europe is becoming increasingly vulnerable when it comes to energy supplies. Both for domestic economic growth but also vulnerable to russian oil and other things of this nature. We are concerned.
▶ 2:49:59Sec. Rubio: We are concerned that eu policies in general are leaving them more vulnerable.
▶ 2:50:07Sen. Daines: Thank you and we hope to have that discussion next week at the hearing. I was honored to be there with you all. The making of a major shift in terms of having economic in -- diplomatic relations with the united states, here is my question.
▶ 2:50:38Sen. Daines: How important is it we and these trade restrictions as it relates to central asia. Senator murphy and I are cosponsors of that. It is an ancient soviet era restriction that is not relevant at all.
▶ 2:50:59Sec. Rubio: We agree and one of these areas you have been focused on for a long time, I think absolutely we would like to see that.
▶ 2:51:13Sen. Daines: Thank you.
▶ 2:51:14Sen. Risch: Senator rosen.
▶ 2:51:17Senator Rosen: Thank you Mr. chair and ranking member and thank you senator -- secretary rubio. I want to build on senator van hollen's line of questioning. President trump pardoned the former honduran president after he was convicted of trafficking roughly 400 tons of cocaine into the united states. Cocaine that contributed to the deaths of tens of thousands of americans year after year.
▶ 2:51:43Senator Rosen: Yet the president and his cabinet authorized a military operation to capture nicolas maduro to arrest him for the same time. Yes or no, to the best of your knowledge was hernandez convicted of trafficking approximately 400s tons of cocaine into the united states?
▶ 2:52:01Sec. Rubio: I'm not involved in the pardoning process. I do not do yes or no, this is not a game show.
▶ 2:52:08Sen. Rosen: So I'm going to tell you he was. He was convicted.
▶ 2:52:12Sec. Rubio: The president felt he was unfairly treated. But I can't give you much insight because I'm not involved in the pardon process.
▶ 2:52:21Sen. Rosen: Can you not understand how the american people and how the world are clearly going to be frustrated by the hypocrisy of this when one man is convicted in pardoned and another man captured and held under --how that undermines united states credibility?
▶ 2:52:36Sec. Rubio: I can't opine on the specifics of the case but he was not a sitting officeholder, he was not even the president of honduras when that decision was made to convict him. The difference is he is actively engaged in in trafficking. It was an ongoing effort.
▶ 2:52:52Sen. Rosen: I think it does undermine our credibility. I will move on to some foreign policy decision-making. Despite the fact that you famously or infamously have numerous jobs in the administration. You are secretary of state, you are national security advisor. It is increasingly unclear who is directing U.S. foreign policy under president trump. We have a special envoy witkoff who has reportedly conducted russia and ukraine talks in switzerland beyond your awareness.
▶ 2:53:22Sen. Rosen: He and jared kushner have been described as managing the. Envoy is appearing to leave -- lead on africa policy. So I have to ask you, I know the answer but I will ask you, are you the lead for U.S. government on policy?
▶ 2:53:40Sec. Rubio: The lead on U.S. foreign policy is donald j. Trump. On the individuals you have described, these are very valuable teams. It is a legitimate question. I have the distinction but I think both the benefit of being the national security advisor and the secretary of state. My job is to ordinate foreign policy. I speak to steve witkoff in the case of gaza and now russia.
▶ 2:54:12Sec. Rubio: We have multiple meetings in coordination. We build the team, we gather facts and take them to the president and the president directs the foreign policy of the united states.
▶ 2:54:23Sen. Rosen: You can overrule their decisions? Do you special -- outrank the special envoys, do they care about your input or go straight to the president?
▶ 2:54:33Sec. Rubio: There is no time at which the president is presented an option by one of us as it exempts everybody else. We have a team approach which is the way the system is supposed to work. You have had in the past tensions between the national security council that became operational. There is not much conflict because it is the same person. We basically create a consensus team around it.
▶ 2:55:05Sec. Rubio: It is the president's decision.
▶ 2:55:15Sen. Rosen: Shouldn't they report to you?
▶ 2:55:18Sec. Rubio: They report to me every day and keeping me apprised of what is happening. They are involved heavily. The special envoys rely on state department personnel to assist them in all of their efforts. On the board of peace, we helped them position the gathering last week and all the work that is going to happen now. It is not linear. No single individual other than the president has the ability to dictate our foreign policy.
▶ 2:55:51Sen. Rosen: Let's talk about the board of peace because all treaties and statutes have to be approved by congress and the president is starting a new board of peace, we would need that authority, the authority for the filing stems from the international organizations immunities act, but it only provides the president such authority in an organization approved by treaty or statute.
▶ 2:56:18Sen. Rosen: Treaties or statutes must be approved by congress so when will the administration be requesting congress passed legislation to authorize the president to extend these benefits to the board of peace creating the board of peace?
▶ 2:56:30Sec. Rubio: The board of peace was chartered and set up by the un security council through a vote of the un security council deliberation sodas international organism recognized by the security council of the united nations which is something --
▶ 2:56:45Sen. Rosen: The president is claiming his authority is from the international organizations immunities act and this law only provides the president authority when U.S. participation has been approved by treaty or statute. I know my time is up. Please consider working with us to do these things. You know what it is to be a senator, you know what that collaboration and cooperation mean.
▶ 2:57:10Sen. Rosen: And I think that all of us expect that respect from you and would really appreciate it.
▶ 2:57:17Sen. Risch: Thank you. Secretary, you have been very generous with your time. We have a few comments. Senator shaheen.
▶ 2:57:29Senator Shaheen: I agree, thank you. I hope that you will come more often before this committee. I just wanted to clarify a couple of things. Under the case act, the state department is required as are other agencies to give documents like the one senator shots was raising or the agreement between venezuela and the U.S. to this committee. We have not yet received it. I hope that we will see it in the near future.
▶ 2:58:00Senator Shaheen: The other thing with respect to the exchange between you and senator rosen, I can tell you that as the minority staff we have requested updates from the state department on the special envoy's negotiations on the ukraine war with russia and we have been denied access to any of that information. I would hope that that would be available number one.
▶ 2:58:33Senator Shaheen: I think everybody is interested in trying to support efforts to end this war in ukraine. This should not be an adversarial position. I would also hope that like senator curtis that you would be willing to have someone from state come before the committee, we have not had a hearing on negotiations over the war in ukraine since I've been on this committee and since the president took office.
▶ 2:59:01Senator Shaheen: So I hope you will make that commitment to come have state, and be part of the hearing on the war in ukraine and the negotiations there.
▶ 2:59:13Sec. Rubio: And we would love to do that and I will make sure it happens. I will give you a brief update. It is late, but I don't mind. My sense of it is that for the most part I have discussed the security guarantees that is part of the early part of this year. The one remaining update.
▶ 2:59:42Sec. Rubio: I know there is active work going to see. It is still a bridge we haven't crossed. At least we have been able to narrow down the issues set to one central one. It is probably very difficult, but there was a meeting late last week in the uae which for the first time in many years was trilateral and involved the U.S. presence. Jared was there and steve witkoff was there. They were going to follow-up talks this week in that regard.
▶ 3:00:14Sec. Rubio: Bilateral. We continue to try to move that forward. Some of this stuff that is being talked about, it is easier for the parties engaged defined flexibility on some of these matters if they are not being deliberated in the public on a constant basis because it creates political pressures internally on both sides.
▶ 3:00:38Sec. Rubio: The notion that you would even consider a change in land after all that has gone in the war is difficult and in the case of russia they have been telling their people that they are winning the war overwhelmingly. There are some dynamics there.
▶ 3:00:57Sec. Rubio: If you need more information, this has been so fluid that an update like the one I just gave you could be outdated in 72 hours but your point is taken and we will be responsive to that.
▶ 3:01:12Sen. Shaheen: I think the other point of a hearing is it gives people a chance to ask questions we are hearing from our constituents and other people and tried to get answers and I appreciate that it is a changing dynamic and that will always be the case and there are issues both in ukraine and in russia with respect to what comes out in public.
▶ 3:01:33Sen. Shaheen: But given the amount of money the united states has put into supporting this effort, given the support among the american people and given the support in congress it seems to me, it would seem we should have a hearing to ask questions.
▶ 3:01:54Sen. Risch: That I understand you to say that the portion of the discussions regarding security for ukraine are essentially agreed to by both sides? That is news to me.
▶ 3:02:15Sec. Rubio: I think you could argue they are agreed to from our side of the equation but there is obviously a russian dynamic at play. Any security guarantees would come into play. But the broader point I was making is that it is pretty clear that the only security guarantee that people keep pushing forward is one that involves a deployment of some european troops on the ground but with a very strong U.S. backstop.
▶ 3:02:45Sec. Rubio: I point being was in the broader context of the legal alliance where we have to understand that even something like that, in europe, they don't have the capability of doing a security guarantee without a U.S. backstop that is one of the reasons why the president keeps pointing to nato and the need for a partner's to get stronger. They have committed to 5% spending.
▶ 3:03:14Sec. Rubio: Every notion of security guarantees. One that requires a strong commitment by the united states as a backstop. We would be committed potentially in a conflict in a future conflict that is something we have understood in the context.
▶ 3:03:35Sen. Risch: Very clear. Thank you again for your time. I'm going to leave the record open until the close of business tomorrow if there are questions, would appreciate it if you would assist in getting answers to those questions. Great job. Thank you for spending the time with us. We sincerely appreciate it. The american people are lucky to have U.S. a secretary of state and with that, the meeting is adjourned. [captioning performed by the national captioning institute, which is responsible for its caption content and accuracy. Visit ncicap.org]