▶ 0:50:20Chair Risch: This hearing will come to order. Thank you, senator rosen, good to have you here, senator kaine. The set foreign subcommittee on the near east and counterterrorism will come to order. I want to thank our witnesses for being here today. We have two great witnesses, senator rosen for her partnership, and this hearing was your idea, and it's a good one. As we continue our crucial work of counterterrorism oversight.
▶ 0:50:48Chair Risch: This hearing represent an opportunity to analyze north africa, the strategic region of national security interest, the five countries that make up this region, morocco, algeria, tunisia, libya, egypt occupy positions of geostrategic significance that directly impact global commerce and western security. The control key maritime chokepoints, serve as gateways between europe and sub-saharan africa, and sit within crucial energy core doors.
▶ 0:51:17Chair Risch: Libya alone shares borders with six nations and have become a transit hub for arms, fighters, and illicit trafficking that threatens the mediterranean. Egypt controls the suez canal through which 12% of global trade passes. Morocco of course guards the straits of gibraltar. Political instability and governance challenges have created opportunities that terrorist organizations look to exploit.
▶ 0:51:39Chair Risch: In the years on the cease-fire in libya, the country's political fragmentation has contributed to internal stability and prevented effective security coordination against share threats. This fragmentation has allowed isis libya and libya al qaeda to maintain logistical network to some degree although the threat has been greatly diminished when compared with the previous decade. In egypt, one of the three U.S.
▶ 0:52:03Chair Risch: Designated major non-allies in the region, terror groups like isis have committed violence against government entities, coptic christians, and other civilian targets. Security gains have been made by joint counters and efforts in recent years to reduce the threat and prevent massive tax. Last month I was pleased to see the treasury department designate the egyptian muslim brotherhood as a specially designated global terrorist group.
▶ 0:52:29Chair Risch: This designation unlocks additional tools to combat the illicit financial networks that have legitimized terrorism and spread the group's influence globally. I want to apply the administration's efforts to disrupt terror networks that undermine our national security. Tunisia and other non-major non-nato allies have seen a reduction in islamic violence since 2006 which demonstrates improvement in security capacity.
▶ 0:52:56Chair Risch: At the time we know that certain terror cells remain active in border regions as evidenced by the recent death of a tunisian police officer during a counterterrorism operation along the algerian border. Algeria represents challenges and opportunities. While they maintain warm relations with russia and has divergent foreign policy issues like israel and iran, counterterrorism remains an area of bilateral cooperation. Lessons can be gleaned from our positive counterterrorism partnership with morocco.
▶ 0:53:27Chair Risch: It's a major non-nato ally since 2004. Morocco's counterterrorism strategy was successfully disrupting terror cells as recently as this year, combines enhanced security measures with multilateral coordination. North africa security gains are evident in that region that is not experiencing massive terrorist attack in almost a decade while smaller instances have occurred, the greatest for the north africa faces is from spillover risk posed by sahel based groups.
▶ 0:53:57Chair Risch: The sahel region including mali, burkina faso, niger, has witnessed the rise of jnim, growing into one of the most potent terror groups. An organization with algerian roots that originated from the islamist insurgencies of the 1990's which claim thousands of lives including three U.S. citizens that were killed in a 2013 attack on an algerian gas plant. It's my understanding this committee will soon convene a hearing on the sahel.
▶ 0:54:27Chair Risch: I look forward to continuing the conversation as it relates to those threats. This hearing provides an opportunity to assess the progress made to counter threats and also better understand where we go from here. It's also been over two decades since the global war on terror started and it's critical we learn from the failures, resist mission creep, while also leveraging strategic programming that bolsters regional security and involves our partners, our allies paying their fair share.
▶ 0:54:56Chair Risch: The trump administration has taken decisive action to reshape the U.S. approach counterterrorism, eliminate wasteful spending and streamlined bureaucracy. As a department of state realigned its efforts within ministries and goals, congress stands ready to work together. I look forward to hearing from our witnesses and working with my colleagues on both sides of the aisle to ensure the american taxpayer dollars are being spent effectively, that our personnel are positioned for success, and that we are doing everything necessary to protect the american people from terrorist
▶ 0:55:26Chair Risch: Threats emanating from north africa and beyond. I'm now happy to recognize the ranking member of this committee senator rosen, for her opening remarks.
▶ 0:55:35Sen. Rosen: Thank you, chairman mccormick, thank you for you and your staff's cooperation in setting up the hearings we have had, the good work we are trying to do in this area. This hearing is extremely important and I want to thank you, the witnesses, for joining us today as well. Today's hearing is focused on a region that frequently just doesn't get enough attention. North africa. Also known as the maghreb.
▶ 0:56:02Sen. Rosen: Did located between the middle east and europe and sub-saharan africa, the countries of north africa are important to U.S. national, economic, and energy security. The region deserves a deeper look at the immense opportunities as well as the unique challenges it experiences . While american attention has strayed from the region in recent decades, our nation has a long history of engagement with north africa. With morocco having the longest diplomatic relations with the U.S.
▶ 0:56:30Sen. Rosen: Of any other country, now celebrating 250 years of friendship. I was proud to visit rabat in 2023 when I let the first effort bipartisan senate delegation to the abraham accords countries and I was struck by the moroccan government's commitment to work with us too counterterrorism in the region, something I believe we must strongly continue to invest in. The current U.S.
▶ 0:56:57Sen. Rosen: Administration has demonstrated an interest in the maghreb, prioritizing peace deals, regional stability, and trade and economic opportunities, increased U.S. attention to the region is welcome as china and russia and iran have significantly invested in north africa for more than a decade. And they have succeeded in making critical inroads. This is not good. For today's hearing, would be focus on the critical importance of counterterrorism efforts in the maghreb.
▶ 0:57:28Sen. Rosen: Since the high devices, the region has experienced significant steady decrease in violent terrorist attacks in part thanks to U.S. supported counterterrorism partnerships and countering violent extremist programs. Specifically the U.S. supported transmit saharan counterterrorism partnership has played a critical role in helping countries improve their own capacities in addressing terrorist threats and preventing the spread of violent extremism. It is always at their door.
▶ 0:57:58Sen. Rosen: We have seen immense progress been there continues to be the risk of terrorism across the maghreb. Compounding this is the terrorist threat from the sahel which has become a global hotspot for terrorism in recent years. It is impossible now to think of the sahel and north africa as completely different regions. They are increasingly connected through overlapping dynamics that we cannot ignore.
▶ 0:58:24Sen. Rosen: Violent extremists, it does not know -- they do not know any boundaries. They will take advantage of weak states, take advantage of porous borders, and this could risk stability, north africa, the relative to they've enjoyed for many years. It's my hope that our witnesses will dive into the progress that's been achieved in the region and what U.S. efforts actually help get us there, and what we need to do to keep sustaining this.
▶ 0:58:52Sen. Rosen: Given the strategic importance of the maghreb, it's imperative that we continue to support counterterrorism partnerships in this region given what is happening in the sahel. At the same time, we must not be naïve that recruitment of terrorist organizations will frankly ever stop. Particularly in light of our foreign assistance cuts and the loss of expertise in usaid and across the state department. U.S. supported cbe programs have cap limited our cd efforts by preventing the next generation of extremists.
▶ 0:59:23Sen. Rosen: So I hope that we will discuss what the U.S. plans to do not just to stop terrorism but to prevent it from emerging. With that, Mr. chairman, I look forward to discussing this topic today. Thank you.
▶ 0:59:36Chair Mccormick: Thank you, senator rosen. Thank you for the help in getting this year and up and running. I look forward to hearing from the insights of our witnesses from the state department. Mr. robert palladino is the senior bureau official of near eastern affairs at the U.S. state department. He is a career member of the senior foreign service with extensive experience addressing critical foreign-policy and national security challenges across asia, europe, and the middle east. Thank you for being here.
▶ 1:00:06Chair Mccormick: Lieutenant colonel joel borkert serves as a deputy coordinator for the bureau of counterterrorism at the U.S. state department where he leads programs and military coordination. He was chief of staff of the U.S. agency for international development, usaid, also a retired U.S. army lt. Col., and a decorated combat veteran. Thank you both for your willingness to serve our country and for your willingness to testify today. I'd like to remind our witnesses to try to keep your opening remarks to five minutes.
▶ 1:00:35Chair Mccormick: Your submitted testimony will be entered into the record in full. Mr. palladino, why don't we start with you good afternoon, chairman mccormick, senator rosen, members of the subcommittee. Thank you for the invitation to testify here today. I look forward to discussing how our counterterrorism efforts in north africa advance our broader U.S. interests in the region.
▶ 1:01:03Chair Mccormick: As the senior bureau official for the bureau of near eastern affairs, my team and I work closely with the bureau of counterterrorism to counter terrorist threats across north africa and the middle east. It is through this collaboration that we are able to advance the president's vision for the region.
▶ 1:01:22Chair Mccormick: First, nea seeks to protect american citizens in the region by providing essential services that safeguard their personal well-being and commercial interests. Secondly, our diplomacy is focused on ensuring middle eastern conflicts and regional security threats do not threaten the united states directly.
▶ 1:01:46Chair Mccormick: Third, we help counter a destabilizing mass and illegal immigration by ensuring travel and migration consistent with U.S. law. And forth, we support american businesses as they support opportunities for trade and profitable investment across the region. Countering and preventing terrorist threats in north africa ensures that we can protect americans, promote peace, insecure opportunities for increased american prosperity.
▶ 1:02:17Chair Mccormick: We work closely with the bureau of counterterrorism to achieve these broader administration goals. Nea works with ct and interagency partners to identify and counter terrorist threats of our debts are brought before they reach our shores disrupting terrorist operations that disrupt americans and U.S. economic interests in the region.
▶ 1:02:41Chair Mccormick: A key driver of nea's work is to identify capable partners in the middle east and north africa and encourage them to take increased responsibility for both their own security and the security of their region. The united states is focusing resources on immediate threats to the U.S. homeland and emphasizing strategic burden shifting to capable partners to address local and regional threats.
▶ 1:03:10Chair Mccormick: In this light, we have refocused our ct relationship with north african countries, with them taking primary responsibility for regional ct. In the 2010's terrorism in north africa represented a significant threat to the united states, our interests in the region, from morocco to egypt, terrorist attacks kill thousands including americans.
▶ 1:03:37Chair Mccormick: In response, the united states invested heavily in improving the counterterrorism capacity of north african partner countries. As a result of our efforts, many of these countries have significantly degraded foreign terrorist organizations operating in their territories.
▶ 1:03:56Chair Mccormick: As a reflection of the region's success in countering terrorist threats, we seek to encourage states such as algeria, morocco, tunisia to become security exporters to the region. Morocco and tunisia have benefited from multilateral military exercises, such as phoenix express, african lion, the largest joint military exercise on the continent which the moroccans and the tunisians have cohosted for years.
▶ 1:04:30Chair Mccormick: Major non-nato allies morocco and tunisia have leveraged our deep security partnerships toward training security personnel from across sub-saharan africa on their own dime. Algeria's counterterrorism success also makes it a critical pillar of stability in the region.
▶ 1:04:49Chair Mccormick: As the united states shifts our priorities and resources to the western hemisphere and indo pacific region, as outlined in the president's national security strategy, the state department's agency strategic plan, we are counting on north african states to build on their successes and share their best practices with neighboring countries that are facing significant terrorist threats.
▶ 1:05:16Chair Mccormick: For decades, ct has been at the center of many of our bilateral relationships with north african countries. Thanks to our productive ct relationship with these countries, we have partners we can work with to advance a number of the president's initiatives. Clear example is our work to counter threats from the muslim brotherhood and its violent ideology.
▶ 1:05:38Chair Mccormick: We also look to north african countries to provide critical support to ensuring terrorist activity in the sahel does not spread west to the gulf of guinea, or north to regain a foothold in north africa, where it would present a more immediate threat to the united states and our interests.
▶ 1:05:56Chair Mccormick: In conclusion, with this committee's support, the bureau of near eastern affairs intends to continue working with the bureau of counterterrorism and other bureaus across the state department, as well as our interagency and regional partners, to counterterrorism, to protect the american people, to expand investment that will benefit the american people. Thank you for your attention. Thank you for your leadership on this topic.
▶ 1:06:26Chair Mccormick: I welcome your questions.
▶ 1:06:31Ltc Borkert: Chairman mccormick, ranking member rosen, members of the subcommittee, thank you for the opportunity to appear before you today. I'm extremely honored to testify before the subcommittee and to be joined by my calling from the bureau of near eastern affairs.
▶ 1:06:49Ltc Borkert: I appreciate the chance to discuss the evolving terrorism landscape in north africa and how the department of state's bureau of counterterrorism is advancing this administration's security priorities. Preventing terrorist attacks on the american homeland is this administration's number one counterterrorism objective, full stop.
▶ 1:07:14Ltc Borkert: Every program, every dollar, every partnership is measured by the standard, does it make america safer, stronger, and more prosperous? Over the past year, guided by the principle of peace through strength, we have shifted from open-ended capacity building to targeted and decisive threat prevention. The bureau of counterterrorism plays a central role in shaping, implementing, and coordinating these efforts across the department and interagency.
▶ 1:07:46Ltc Borkert: Our focus is simple, disrupt terrorist networks, the terror terrorist travel, and prevent threats from overseas from becoming attacks on U.S. soil. A core pillar of our strategy is strengthening front-line partners while shifting responsibility to those whose sovereignty and stability are directly at stake. Strong partners are force multipliers for american security.
▶ 1:08:12Ltc Borkert: Our assistance prioritizes border and traveler screenings, watch listing, real-time information sharing, and counterterrorist financing, the tools that actually stop attacks before they reach our homeland. While the territorial defeat of isis during the first trump administration significantly degraded the group's capabilities, instability across the middle east, sub-saharan africa, and the sahel continue to provide space for terrorist networks to operate.
▶ 1:08:43Ltc Borkert: Weak borders, sparsely populated territories, and ongoing conflicts, including the activities of iran's terrorist proxies, fuel radicalization and enabled free movement of fighters, weapons, and funds. In this environment, our approach is clear, prevent threats to the homeland forward, streamline our efforts, and require partners to carry their fair share of the flight. North africa demonstrates what focused U.S.
▶ 1:09:12Ltc Borkert: Leadership, combined with partner ownership, can achieve. Over the past decade, U.S. support has helped our partners dismantle terror cells and disrupt attack plots. Just last month, U.S.-trained tunisian forces eliminated in isis-affiliated cell and conducted additional operations against terrorist networks. At the same time, morocco, having benefited from U.S.
▶ 1:09:40Ltc Borkert: Counterterrorism programs, is now exporting security by training sub-saharan gendarmerie's using U.S. provided curriculum. This is the model we are encouraging across the region. Capable partners leading their own regional security. Despite the successes, the threat persists. That is why the bureau of counterterrorism continues to focus relentlessly on three priorities.
▶ 1:10:05Ltc Borkert: First, stopping terrorist before they reach our borders by strengthening partner screening systems, expanding traveler information sharing, and improving. Aviation andborder security our work with morocco, including aviation security programs that resulted in a perfect tsa assessment at casablanca international airport demonstrates the effectiveness of this targeted approach.
▶ 1:10:30Ltc Borkert: Second, we use our counterterrorism designation authorities to cut off resources and operational space for terrorist groups. A recent example of this is our designations of the muslim brotherhood chapters in lebanon, jordan, and egypt, would provide a critical tool to disrupt terrorist financing networks.
▶ 1:10:51Ltc Borkert: Third, we are advancing president trump's maximum pressure campaign against iran by coordinating sanctions, mobilizing international partners, and countering iran's terrorist proxies across the region. Since 2019, 18 governments have taken action against hezbollah as a result of these efforts. At the end of the day, our counterterrorism strategy is simple. Homeland security first, precision over permanence, and allies carrying their fair share of the burden.
▶ 1:11:21Ltc Borkert: We will continue to focus resources on what works, eliminate ineffective programs, and partner with capable nations to prevent terrorist threats before they reach the united states. Thank you again for the opportunity to appear before you today. I look forward to your questions.
▶ 1:11:38Chair Mccormick: Thank you both for your testimony. At this point, we are going to go to the question and answer section. I will start with five minutes of questions, then senator rosen, then we will go back and forth. We have a number of senators stopping by, so we may move things around to make sure everyone asks their questions. I will start with you, Mr. borkert. What is the current status of the state department's ct programming in the region, and how does it align with the administration's approach to counterterrorism?
▶ 1:12:09Ltc Borkert: Thank you for that question, senator. Right now, we have roughly $34 million of ongoing programs. They are primarily focused on aviation security, crisis response, border security, and counterterrorist funding. This is aligned with this administration, as it is really focused on protecting the homeland first.
▶ 1:12:37Ltc Borkert: That is our number one objective and that is really what our programs that we are investing in currently aim to do.
▶ 1:12:43Chair Mccormick: If you look at the partnerships in particular with morocco, tunisia, egypt as examples, what are cases where there is positive counterterrorism partnership has yielded real results? Can you point out some specific examples?
▶ 1:13:00Ltc Borkert: Yes, senator, I can. Thank you for the question. When it comes to morocco, we see they are becoming a net exporter of counterterrorist capability, particularly because of some of the training they been doing in the sahel. If you look at egypt, they have a counterterrorism training center focused on counter ieds.
▶ 1:13:27Ltc Borkert: They have also been training african partners in order to do that. On tunisia, the example I stated in my opening testimony. They have curriculum that they have been able to provide assistance, again, to african countries to their south.
▶ 1:13:43Chair Mccormick: Thank you. Mr. palladino, in what ways has the ct programming helped preserve space and axis for diplomacy in countries like algeria, tunisia during these periods of instability?
▶ 1:14:00Mr. Palladino: Thank you, senator. That is an important question. Finding areas on which we have common ground and finding areas in which we can cooperate together despite other differences and views is essential to advancing american interests.
▶ 1:14:26Mr. Palladino: The way we approach our diplomacy is done in a way in which we seek to emphasize but what do we share in common, what goals are we trying to achieve together? Counterterrorism has proven to be extremely reliable in north africa, something that we find equal partners willing to work with us. Thank you.
▶ 1:14:58Mr. Palladino: >> jim has experienced a general decline in volunteer efforts over the last decade. They still face threats, conflicts in sudan. How is egypt managing these threats and how are we supporting these efforts.
▶ 1:15:21Mr. Palladino: Thank you, senator. They've generally defeated al qaeda affiliated groups. They, before we did.
▶ 1:15:37Mr. Palladino: Designated the muslim brotherhood as a terrorist organization and they welcomed that as well as our validation of their long-time determination that the muslim brotherhood promotes extremism and destabilization that threatenings our security and sovereignty. So they've been strong partners in that regard.
▶ 1:16:06Mr. Palladino: They've also built the is a they've also built the I sahel and sahara programs and they're doing their part as well to take on more of the burden sharing necessary to combat terrorism in the sahel. Thank you.
▶ 1:16:37Chair Mccormick: Thank you. Senator rosen?
▶ 1:16:40Sen. Rosen: Thank you. I want to follow up on that. It's my understanding that the transsaharan counterterrorism partnership, this program is still being implemented but I have concerns give the significant changes that have taken place at state over the past year. We'll start with Mr. palladino and go over to Mr. borkert.
▶ 1:17:05Sen. Rosen: But where does the tscpc now sit within the state department and how do other bureaus and offices within the state department coordinate to execute the program? Whoever wants to go first is fine.
▶ 1:17:27Ltc Borkert: Senator, thank you for that question. I will need to go back specifically to dig deeper into that specifically. The c.t. Bureau does lead when it comes to counterterrorism. We do have focus programs within that region that, again, are focusing on things like strong border screening, modern watch listing, real-time information sharing, counterterrorism financing.
▶ 1:17:57Ltc Borkert: Those ready efforts that we have focused on efforts on.
▶ 1:18:02Sen. Rosen: I'll have my team reach out to get that information. Thank you. Mr. borkert, poverty and lack of opportunity are some of the biggest drivers of extremism and violence around the globe. Yet you played a role in terminating programs that tried to address these challenges. At stake we've seen the closure of the bureau of conflict stabilization efforts and layoffs in the c.t., I.n.l.
▶ 1:18:30Sen. Rosen: And other bureaus and offices as well as cancellation of public diplomacy programs. These types of vital programs target the root causes of extremism and prevent vulnerable populations from being recruited by terrorist organizations, so Mr. borkert, are c.t.
▶ 1:18:54Sen. Rosen: Or any of our bureaus currently implementing any programs within the region and are you able to monitor and evaluate their implementation and then Mr. tall dino, if you much -- palatineo, if you have something so add after that.
▶ 1:19:19Ltc Borkert: Thank you. We did close the c.e.t. Offers but through the assessment process we have retained the capability to continue to monitor risk in that area, both when it comes to the counterterrorism risk and then I would say some of the root drivers of that risk.
▶ 1:19:42Sen. Rosen: Let me ask you this question then. If you're closing that and just kind of monitoring I have serious concerns you're focused only on addressing current c.t.e. Threats and not about preventing future threats. Not being proactive.
▶ 1:20:01Sen. Rosen: Do you much a role to address this in the mcgreb and the beyond in order to prevent emerging c.t. Threats?
▶ 1:20:13Ltc Borkert: Yes, our focus is on american first foreign assistance as secretary rubio announced last year so all of our foreign assistance and our security assistance is focused on presenting the homeland. We believe particularly in the area of north africa that it's important that we have -- that our partners in the region take on more responsibility, particularly in this space.
▶ 1:20:41Sen. Rosen: So if you think we're not going to -- if they know we're not watching the threats are still going to be there. So I think you're taking your eye off the ball. Mr. palladino, do you have something to add here?
▶ 1:20:56Mr. Palladino: Thank you, senator. You mentioned public diplomacy. We still maintain robust diplomacy assets in north africa that are acting and both amplify U.S. messages and are running exchange programs. Those are operations that continue and will continue, that we'll continue to do.
▶ 1:21:21Mr. Palladino: Further I would just add that my bureau and the counterterrorism bureau, we are meeting regularly and exchanging views and information and the coordination is strong and that's something we'll also continue to do. Thank you.
▶ 1:21:36Sen. Rosen: Thank you, I yield.
▶ 1:21:39Chair Mccormick: Senator cruz? I'm sorry, I thought -- he has a "time"line. That be ok with you?
▶ 1:21:50Sen. Cruz: Thank you, chairman, I appreciate it. Senate scott. Mr. palladino, thank you for being here to testify this afternoon. I'd like to ask you about the specifics of your testimony, specifically do two things you said. You said that "allgeiero's counterterrorism successes also make it a critical pillar of stability.
▶ 1:22:15Sen. Cruz: And in the next practitioner graph "we look to north african territories for their support and that their terrorist activity in the sahel does not excel." iran is trying to turn that front into the houthis for north africa.
▶ 1:22:41Sen. Cruz: Capable of waging war, threaten regional stability and threaten U.S. partners whenever iran wants leverage. The palisarian group works with palestinian groups, moves weapons and resources around the region, including to jihadist and much more.
▶ 1:23:03Sen. Cruz: I believe they should be designated as a terrorist group and I've draft rad bill to do so if there's no change in their behavior. Is that what you meant by "terrorist activity in the sahel usually,"? Were you talking about the palisario front?
▶ 1:23:25Mr. Palladino: It's an important question, senator, thank you. What I would say in regards to the palisario, president trump has made clear his desire to get a lasting resolution to that dispute in the western sahara. As part of that.
▶ 1:23:45Mr. Palladino: American policy, currently, as we're engaging all parties and we're going to continue to pursue that for a lasting resolution and we seek that because if we can get to that resolution, that is going to be our best shot at advancing peace and security, which will prevent further terrorist activity.
▶ 1:24:15Mr. Palladino: You membered designation and we're constantly assessing threats to the american homeland and we will continue to look at that. And if we proceed that will be grounded in the process and the evidence and the law. Thank you, senator.
▶ 1:24:39Sen. Cruz: I see the opassity I referenced was not accidental but deliberate. Because in the course of that answer, there was no direct answer that yes, the activity from sahel is coming from the folisario front and that is a significant blind spot in our counterterrorism posture. Do you assess right now that that front poses a threat to U.S. interests in any sense and if so, in what sense?
▶ 1:25:11Mr. Palladino: Senator, thank you, senator. We're actively engaging all parties in the western sahara dispute and that the interests of achieving a lasting and durable peace, that's the policy of the president and we're seeking more time to continue to find a way to find common ground is to come to an agreement to stabilize the situation and allow there to be prosperity to
▶ 1:25:44Mr. Palladino: Follow based upon stability.
▶ 1:25:46Sen. Cruz: I would say that answer was positively shakespearean. It was full of sound and fury and yet signifying nothing. And, by the way, I will say in terms of the president, I feel confident I've spent a lot more time with the president than you have and he does not have any difficulty at all calling terrorists what they are. Mr. borkert, let's see if we do any better with you.
▶ 1:26:12Sen. Cruz: Iran has trained fighters for the polisario front and hezbollah has provided them with weapons. In your written testimony, you said your bureau was working on that and you referred to groups like hezbollah. You likely did not mention the polisario front. Same question.
▶ 1:26:35Sen. Cruz: When you talk about the threat posed to north african countries and its proxies, does that include the polisario front?
▶ 1:26:47Chair Mccormick: Senator, thank you for that question. We continue to monitor activities around north africa. We continue to see if the irgc and hezbollah, if their activities in that region and globally and as we look at these activity, we will work with our partner countries in order to counter those threats and where possible encourage those downs
▶ 1:27:20Chair Mccormick: Designate them as terrorist groups.
▶ 1:27:21Sen. Cruz: It seems to me you turned to your colleague and said hold my beer. Let me ask a final question to both of you. Were both of you instructed in this testimony not to say anything negative about the polisario front? Because it sure seems like you were.
▶ 1:27:41Mr. Palladino: Senator, I'm just trying to explain what we're trying to do policy-wise.
▶ 1:27:49Sen. Cruz: That's a yes or no question.
▶ 1:27:51Mr. Palladino: No, I received no instructions to those effects.
▶ 1:27:56Ltc Borkert: I seed no instruction to those effects either.
▶ 1:28:01Sen. Cruz: You decided to go down that road for the heck of it. Ok. Thank you.
▶ 1:28:07Chair Mccormick: Senator shaheen?
▶ 1:28:15Sen.: Thank you for giving me the opportunity to go ahead of him so I can get to another hearing and thank you both for being here. We face critical issues in north africa including terrorism threats. This committee has moved the president's nominees to morocco and tunisia who are now serving in those roles as ambassadors.
▶ 1:28:42Sen.: However, three of the five north african posts remain vacant. What's worse, while the senate confirmed those nominees, both male. The commission recalled the two female ambassadors to algeria and egypt. Maybe they thought that was d.e.I.
▶ 1:29:00Sen.: Because they were women, I don't know but they are career ambassadors like you who dedicated their careers to nonpartisan service for offer country so I fail to see how recalling experienced career ambassadors when there are not others ready to take their place is in our interests.
▶ 1:29:21Sen.: I think it's america's interests to have con third ambassadors in every country in the world and right now we are falling behind china dramatically so can you both talk about the benefits of having confirmed beavers in place to address serious issues? Mr. palladino, you want to go first?
▶ 1:29:49Mr. Palladino: Thank you, senator. That's an important question and we do want to have the administration's team on the field and be fully represented.
▶ 1:30:00Sen. Shaheen: I'm sorry to interrupt but do you not consider career ambassadors part of the president's team no matter who the president is?
▶ 1:30:09Mr. Palladino: Senator, you referenced some specific ambassadors being recalled and that's something that happens between administrations and it's -- that is kind of the way the foreign service has worked often in the past. It's kinds of the normal course of nature and when that happens --
▶ 1:30:31Sen. Shaheen: Well, Mr. palladino, that is not correct. I've been here, going on 18 years now. I can on this committee for almost 18 years and I've seen ambassadors come and go and what I've seen is that career ambassadors are generally left in place until they are replaced by another nominee or another career ambassador so don't tell me that that's the normal course of events because I know it's not.
▶ 1:30:59Sen. Shaheen: The fact is when we don't have confirmed ambassadors on the ground, america's interests suffer and I don't care how you can try and defend the fact that we don't have people on the ground but we don't and america's interests are suffering. I want to move on because allgeiero has been an important U.S. counterterrorism partner.
▶ 1:31:19Sen. Shaheen: They have seemed to be willing to turn away from russia and toward the united states, not only in economic ties but on military ties but public reporting currently suggest suggests that the algerian government has purchased russian fighter aircraft and is in talks to purchase even machine because it would take too long to get american planes delivered. So can you speak -- this may be for you, Mr.
▶ 1:31:47Sen. Shaheen: Borkert, but I'm not sure. Maybe it's for you, Mr. palladino. What is the administration's thinking on sanctions if algeria does order a number of planes from russia?
▶ 1:32:01Mr. Palladino: Thank you, senator. We also have seen those media reports and they're concerning. I would say that the department of state is committed to upholding the countering america'seed america'see adversary america'see adversaries transactions that and they may trigger that determination.
▶ 1:32:31Mr. Palladino: This is something that we will watch closely and we could speak more offline perhaps in a classified setting in greater detail on the underlying cont content.
▶ 1:32:44Sen. Shaheen: Can we talk about what we might be able to do to disinsent vise russian-algerian cooperation on military purchases like those planes?
▶ 1:32:57Mr. Palladino: We work closely with the government in algeria on issues where we find common ground. We certainly don't agree on many things and this would be an example where the united states would have a problem. We approach the leadership and the governments as we find them.
▶ 1:33:18Mr. Palladino: And we use the leverage that we have often in private, diplomatically to advance our interests and stop behavior which is not acceptable.
▶ 1:33:37Sen. Shaheen: Thank you.
▶ 1:33:38Chair Mccormick: Senator scott?
▶ 1:33:42Sen. Scott: I thank the chairman ranking member and thank you for being here. America seeks groups as evil seeking to destroy our way of live. These groups have evolved into cross border terrorist networks known for exploiting weakness, unhabitted borders.
▶ 1:34:11Sen. Scott: These terrorist groups are spreading south and north toward the mediterranean. Intercepting migration and smuggling route that ultimately affect our security and interests. Which of your partners have engaged in this issue, successfully delivered security improvements and how should we support these efforts, if you can talk about some of them? And if each of you would answer.
▶ 1:34:40Ltc Borkert: Senator, thank you for that question. Sticking with our north african partners, I would highlight morocco. They have been an excellent partner I think as we've discussed here. They are starting to export their capability to the countries of the sahel which we have concern about. I think they have concern about to because that immediately impacts their region. Also highlight tunisia.
▶ 1:35:09Ltc Borkert: They have, based off of the support that we've provided them, they have engaged and have been constructive partners in the sahel. In algeria, of course, has always had a strong capability and they do an excellent job of securing their border and even in libya where there is some ungoverned space in the south, we've seen a lot of our programming being able to help
▶ 1:35:39Ltc Borkert: Them out and they -- both groups there have taken counterterrorism seriously and have done a good job of pushing most of the isis out of the main populated areas and then, of course, egypt has been a strong partner and we've already highlighted what they have done with their counterterrorism training center so I would say most of the countries across north africa are an example
▶ 1:36:09Ltc Borkert: North africa are an exa excellent example of what partner and burden shifting looks like and we're appreciative of what they are diana.
▶ 1:36:17Sen. Scott: You didn't address europe so you would say europe is not doing in I guess?
▶ 1:36:23Ltc Borkert: I'd need to grow back just to make sure. We are consistently engaged in europe. They have constructive in the deisis coalition. But we consistently talk to our partners -- 1 Sen. scott: that's ok. Mr. palladino?
▶ 1:36:47Mr. Palladino: Thank you, senator. I would concur with everything my colleague has said. Morocco is a major non-nato ally. Signature torrey of the abraham accords. Their training programs, intelligence cooperation --
▶ 1:37:07Sen. Scott: Let me stop you. Is there anything you can say europe has done?
▶ 1:37:13Mr. Palladino: What I'd say is italy, federal, has -- is very involved in assisting and preventing illegal migration and efforts that the united states are able to do in north africa that create space for italy to do more. Thank you.
▶ 1:37:32Sen. Scott: What would you say streamic success in counter tim terrorism in north africa looks like over the next three years? What would success be?
▶ 1:37:46Ltc Borkert: Sir, id say success over the next three years is we don't see a major attack emanating on the american homeland or our interests aboard and then more specifically to our programs, that we would see that most of the programs that we have there are successfully complete, that our partner nations can actually carry out those programs on their own.
▶ 1:38:14Ltc Borkert: That the on the objectives that we had established to begin with are achieved, that there's clear investment to the united states and that these countries can continue to sustain the ability to conduct counterterrorism.
▶ 1:38:30Sen. Scott: I met today with the ambassador that was let go in the philippines. That's a strategic ally. They was a career and she was a wonderful person. I think we really do have to put a lot of effort into making sure that we continue to ensure our relationship with the philippines. We have to look at our tariff rate with them and see when it's appropriate.
▶ 1:38:53Sen. Scott: When I look at it, it doesn't seem very appropriate but it's a strategic ally in that part of the world and I hope we'll put a lot of effort into it. Thanks, both of you.
▶ 1:39:07Chair Mccormick: Senator murphy?
▶ 1:39:09Sen. Murphy: Thank you very much, Mr. chairman. Thank you to our witnesses thes. My worry is that the underlying policy in the middle east today is to make the president rich and I do think we need to talk about this today because over the weekend it was revealed that a few days before the election, the president of the quiet struck a secret deal with the united arab emirates, companies
▶ 1:39:39Sen. Murphy: Controlled by senior officials in the united arab emirates to buy a 47% steak in one of the companies owned by the trump family and the witkoff family with pay occupant of at least $187 million to the trump family by the emiratis and at least $30 million to the witkoff family. This is a stunning revelation. We've never ever seen anything like this before.
▶ 1:40:10Sen. Murphy: And I want to sort of understand to what degree the bureau is integrated are independent from this kind of corruption. It's corruption is what it is. A simple question, Mr. palladino. Were you aware? You were the director -- essentially you were the abilitying director of the bureauo.
▶ 1:40:36Sen. Murphy: Were you aware that the united arab emirates had made in secret investment in the president's crypto currency company or did you find out about it over the weekend like the rest of us?
▶ 1:40:50Mr. Palladino: Senator, I was not aware and any further information about that I would need to refer to the white house for a response.
▶ 1:41:01Sen. Murphy: Uh, out in the open a few months ago, similarly companies controlled by senior government officials in the u.a.e. Financed a $2 billion investment in the crypto currency company binance with president trump's crypto coin, almost overnight making it one of the most valuable coins in the market. Were you aware of the negotiations happening between the trump family and the a.u.e.
▶ 1:41:31Sen. Murphy: That led to that $2 billion purchase using the president's crypto coin?
▶ 1:41:38Mr. Palladino: Senator, I'm focused on the personnel of the state department and our deployment to the field and the policies that we're asking --
▶ 1:41:52Sen. Murphy: My question is specific and, again, I know you're not carrying out this corruption but were you aware of the talks regarding that investment or involved in them in any way?
▶ 1:42:05Mr. Palladino: Senator, I don't have any facts one way or the other regarding the premise of your question other than things that are in the newspaper.
▶ 1:42:16Sen. Murphy: These are just yes or no questions to get a sense of your responsibilities in your personal financial affairs. Yes or no, as a career member of the senior foreign service overseeing our diplomatic interests in the middle east, sit for you to use your office for your own private gain?
▶ 1:42:39Mr. Palladino: No.
▶ 1:42:40Sen. Murphy: Are you predicted by statute from taking official action that would have a direct effect on your financial interests?
▶ 1:42:53Mr. Palladino: I am.
▶ 1:42:57Sen. Murphy: If you owned a private company in the united states would it be legal for that private company that you owned to accept investments from 100 geren government official?
▶ 1:43:08Mr. Palladino: I don't believe so.
▶ 1:43:11Sen. Murphy: The right answer would not be. Why do we have these laws on the books that ricket you as a senior member of the state department from intermingling your official actions with your private affairs? What's your understanding of the importance of those laws and restrictions?
▶ 1:43:27Mr. Palladino: The laws and restrictions are passed by the quiet congress to ensure that those who are serving the nation, have signed up to seven in the executive branch, are faith li fai faithfully carrying out the united states constitution and doing so in a way that serves the american people.
▶ 1:43:57Sen. Murphy: Thank you. Obviously it was stunning to this committee and the public to filed out that the president had accepted a gift from the foreign government directly involved with our fight in counterterrorism and months later to mind out he'd griffithed that country with a sensitive transfer of chip technology was even more stunning.
▶ 1:44:23Sen. Murphy: We have these laws on the books for a reason, that because we do not believe you can carry out your duet on behalf of the american people if you are making money in this position. And it stand to reason that it should matter that the path of the united states is not obeying the same ethical rules that you and your colleagues are subject to. I hope this would be a subject that the full committee would take up. Thank you, Mr. chairman.
▶ 1:44:57Chair Mccormick: Sen. rosen?
▶ 1:44:58Sen. Rosen: Thank you. I want to make a statement on what senator scott said and now senator murphy. Mr. borkert, you said we want to be clear in our investment to the U.S. in returns to counterterrorism. I would argue that our return on investment is not financial but protecting american lives. I'm going to move on now and talk about interconnectedness in the recently.
▶ 1:45:33Sen. Rosen: In maghreb and sahel. While public reporting indicate their presence in libya has decreased. Isis affiliates have established strong foot hold throughout the sahel. But we must celebrate the c.t. Successes we've had in north africa, we cannot be naive.
▶ 1:46:00Sen. Rosen: Think about presenting the homeland, you cannot leave holes in the fences for terrorist to run through. We cannot be naive that's what's happening in the sahel will stay there. Though we don't have a representative from the african bureau today, but Mr. palladino, how do you see working with a.f. In that stability?
▶ 1:46:27Mr. Palladino: Thank you, senator. You mentioned libya and libya is within our purview and I think you're right to point out that political fragmentation there does create the opportunity for increased risk that could pour out and pour from there.
▶ 1:46:53Mr. Palladino: So for libya we're very much focused on regularly speaking to leaders in both the east and west and encouraging the libyans to overcome divisions and to unify institutions and to focus on common interests in a way that's going to promote greater stability and greater peace.
▶ 1:47:18Mr. Palladino: Those are the conditions that are going to create a more prosperous libya and a lickia that is able to better -- better police its own borders. So we're pleased with some of the progress that's been made and of course there's much more work to be done.
▶ 1:47:38Sen. Rosen: So you would agree we should start thinking about c.t. Threats in a more holistic manner? So Mr. borkert, what would that look like in practice?
▶ 1:47:54Ltc Borkert: Yes, senator, thank you for that question and I agree, I think we do need to look at these in a holistic way and we do at the tempt of state. The bureau of counterterrorism as a functional bureau, we discuss and talk a lot with all the regional bureaus so my colleague right here, Mr. palladino, we talk close by with n.a.a. But at the same time we're in constant dialogue with the african bureau.
▶ 1:48:25Ltc Borkert: I was in nigeria with some african colleagues just a few weeks ago. And we were looking at these fr f from a holistic perspective.
▶ 1:48:38Ltc Borkert: One of the things we're looking at this the sahel is how do we have and maintain good understanding in that region and how do we work together in a more comprehensive way when it comes to information sharing with our regional partners in order to understand nose threats and be able to combat any type of threat that might be emanating from the sahel. So I would say, again, I think from the counterterrorism bureau perspective, we are that linkage between n.e.a., n.a.f.
▶ 1:49:07Ltc Borkert: And I think we're doing a successful job of looking at it in a more strategic way.
▶ 1:49:14Sen. Rosen: One last short question but before that, just yes or no. Would you agree then that america first requires and actually demands us to pay strong attention and think forward, be forward thinking about the challenges ahead of us around the world and that would be the best way that we protect the homeland?
▶ 1:49:35Ltc Borkert: Senator, yes, I would agree. America-first policy does think strategically with the objective of the american homeland being protected first and we do that around the globe by working with our partners to ensure that they're carrying on their fair share.
▶ 1:49:56Sen. Rosen: My last question is about tunisia backsliding. Senator scott talking about the region. Mr. palladino. They're taking a concerning turn of consolidation to control over state institutions and significant human rights violations. At the same time it's a reliable security partner in the fight against extremism.
▶ 1:50:21Sen. Rosen: So do you think to you tamisha can continue to be a reliable security partner while saad continues to crack down on what remains of tunisia's democratic institution noose
▶ 1:50:37Mr. Palladino: Thank you. For the president and for secretary rubio, we've been clear that U.S. foreign policy must be focused on making america safer, stronger, more prosperous and that means we have to seek opportunities for greater burden sharing. By our partners for their own security.
▶ 1:51:05Mr. Palladino: When dealing with tunisia, that's the strategic approach that guides our interactions with tunisia. Our security assistance is not annunen dorsement of political decisions being made in that country but it is a tool. To protect american interests. What we find in tunisia, there are things that we can work with and like the tunisian armed forces. They're professional.
▶ 1:51:37Mr. Palladino: They'rea political -- they're apolitical and they're one of the most trusted institutions in tunisia. So we have something to work with and there's room for improvement but at the same time we need to stay focused encore american interests and dealing with the facts on the ground as we find them.
▶ 1:52:05Sen. Rosen: Thank you.
▶ 1:52:09Chair Mccormick: Thank you, senator rosen and we'll conclude with a question for each of you and then bring the hearing to an end. Mr. borkert, start with you. Thank you, senator. Thanks for putting in together. With ongoing counter isis efforts in syria and iraq what are you doing to ensure they don't reconstitute somewhere else in the sinai?
▶ 1:52:33Ltc Borkert: Senator, thank you for that question. I would say when it comes to ensuring that it doesn't reconstitute, particularly in north africa, we continue to diplomatically enbeige to ensure that there's strong sustainability of their c.t. Programs and we are consistently monitoring and assessing the threat and we're poised to rapidly and efficiently respond to risks to our interests in the region as needed.
▶ 1:53:03Ltc Borkert: I think there is obviously concern when it comes to the detainees that are in northeast syria and we do have robust programs as we encourage countries across the maghreb to take their detapeees back to ensure that they're prosecuted and also rehabilitated if they need to be released.
▶ 1:53:29Ltc Borkert: So I would point to those two things to show that we are poised to end -- trying to prevent any type of isis resurgence across that region. >> thank you. Does the U.S. believe the security operation with russia enhahns or undermines our regional efforts to combat isis and al qaeda affiliates?
▶ 1:53:59Mr. Palladino: Senator, any time our partners are cooperating with strategic adversaries, that's something that we seek to dissuade them from doing and whether it's china or russia, these are things that we need to push back on.
▶ 1:54:24Mr. Palladino: On vigorously and we need to constantly work to find ways to protect the american people and ensure in our sovereignty is protected and that's something we'll continue to do. Thank you.
▶ 1:54:35Mr. Palladino: Very good. Thank you. A sincere thank you to both of you for attending today and providing us with the benefit of your testimony. For the information of members, the record will remain open until the close of business tomorrow and for you as witnesses, we asked witnesses, we as ask you to respond as promptly as possible to the questions you were asked that you didn't have answers to. Your responses will be part of the record.
▶ 1:55:02Mr. Palladino: With the thanks of the committee, this hearing is now adjourned.