▶ 0:19:09Chair Murkowski: Good morning. I call this oversight hearing to order. Today we will examine the small business administration native 8(a) program and the role it plays in economic self determination of our native communities. This is not a new topic for oversight. We have regularly conducted oversight of this program and it remains important because 8(a) is a success story. It is not a fraud, as some have mistakenly alleged. That is terminology I would categorically reject.
▶ 0:19:41Chair Murkowski: This program may not be well understood, which may be part of our challenge here, but it is important to note that it is simultaneously provides benefits to the federal government and to native communities across our country. That is true in alaska, hawaii, and most every state.
▶ 0:20:00Chair Murkowski: As structure today, the 8(a) program leads to a more responsive and resilient supply base for the federal government, delivers mission-critical work for civilian defense agencies and promote economic development in native communities will helping fulfill the federal trust responsibility. Lately, we have seen criticisms that 8(a) is an illegitimate d.e.I.
▶ 0:20:25Chair Murkowski: Program and concerns over whether revenues and earnings are leading to sufficient community benefits. On the first question, I have a letter from the sba administrator confirming that the native sba 8(a) program is not d.e.I., which I will enter into the record. As the committee with jurisdiction over tribal native affairs, these are matters we must explore here with testimony from those involved in the program.
▶ 0:20:57Chair Murkowski: As we engage on this, we should start by making a few things clear. First, the united states has unique obligations to indian tribes and native people that are grounded in the united states' constitution, treaties, court decisions, and executive orders.
▶ 0:21:18Chair Murkowski: Based on that, beginning in the 1980's, congress chose to make native entity owned firms eligible for the 8(a) program here that was not based on race. It was not based on d.e.I. But based on congress's constitutional authority over indian affairs and the long-standing federal trust responsibility to native peoples.
▶ 0:21:43Chair Murkowski: The firms owned by tribes, alaska need a corporations, and native hawaiian organizations participate in the program under a different statutory framework then firms owned by individuals. That is deliberate, not an accident. Congress set up this framework because native entity owned firms are accountable to entire native communities.
▶ 0:22:12Chair Murkowski: That is a different responsibility. They are accountable to entire native communities, reinvesting earnings in broader community priorities and advancing economic self-determination.
▶ 0:22:28Chair Murkowski: Third, congress has reaffirmed and expanded the inclusion of indian tribes and native hawaiian organizations in the 8(a) program and these were also deliberate decisions and remain the right decisions so long as we maintain the program integrity and transparency.
▶ 0:22:52Chair Murkowski: Some suggest by restricting 8(a) eligibility we are going to save a ton of taxpayer dollars, but it would actually cost the federal government a key contract tool and disadvantage native peoples around the country. Excluding them from potential participation in federal procurement and community benefits they provide. That is especially true in alaska, where congress took a different route.
▶ 0:23:22Chair Murkowski: They did that as they settled the aboriginal land claims. It was different than in the lower 48, but they transferred land and assets to corporations owned by alaska need to people. That distinctive structure reflects congress's recognition of the unique circumstances of alaska natives and supports their self-determination.
▶ 0:23:48Chair Murkowski: Congress actually amended ancsa to clarify that anc's are eligible to participate in 8(a) and they were acting under their constitutional authorities, making access to federal preferment programs a key part of the settlement and alaska native development.
▶ 0:24:12Chair Murkowski: When congress passed ancsa, one of the goals was to connect communities that were primarily reliant on subsistence hunting and fishing, essentially non-cash economies, but seeking to help advance them within the american business world. The 8(a) program has been pivotal to that, building up managerial, leadership, and business capacity in alaska need of communities.
▶ 0:24:41Chair Murkowski: Some colleagues at federal agencies are conducting reviews of the 8(a) program, including participation of native owned entities. Those reviews must be based on facts and law, ensuring that sba and agencies are equipped to administer an effective program as congress intended while targeting any waste, fraud, and abuse.
▶ 0:25:07Chair Murkowski: We all recognize we do not want to see that in our system so I am pleased that today we are able to focus on some of these issues today. I'm looking forward to hearing from our witnesses who are involved in native 8(a) contracting, including those who have traveled down from alaska to testify before us. Thank you for that.
▶ 0:25:28Chair Murkowski: They will share how the program advances economic self-determination and tribal self-sufficiency in a manner consistent with congressional intent that is good for native peoples. I now turn to the vice chair for his opening statement.
▶ 0:25:44Sen. Schatz: Thank you, chair murkowski, and thank you to everyone in the hearing room and watching online and especially artistic fires and native leaders. I want to begin by welcoming cariann ah loo, president of the native hawaiian organization association. Thank you for coming. Sorry about the weather.
▶ 0:26:10Sen. Schatz: Thanks to your advocacy and leadership, and hoa -- nhoa has been a partner to the committee. Congress expanded the sba section 8(a) program to include native owned entities. Barriers such as inadequate infrastructure and the need for agency approval slowed development of native economies.
▶ 0:26:36Sen. Schatz: The expansion of the program to native entities was an important and deliberate step toward leveling the playing field after decades of social and economic disadvantage that left native communities behind. The 8(a) program does not exist because it is d.e.I.. It is congress recognizing our trust and treaty obligations to native communities and understanding small businesses owned by them can be an important way to support native economies and set them up for long-term success.
▶ 0:27:04Sen. Schatz: The best social program is a good job. That is because a portion of the native 8(a) profits must be reinvested back in native communities. In 2024, it invested more than $25 million back to the native hawaiian community in one year but the program is not perfect. Were immune from challenges many other federal programs face.
▶ 0:27:33Sen. Schatz: Aub -- allegations of waste, fraud, and abuse cannot be ignored. If there are bad actors in the program, they should be investigated and held accountable, as they should be in any federal program. Calling for a blanket pause on native contracts or ending the program because of allegations of wrongdoing by a few is not fair and is not effective.
▶ 0:27:58Sen. Schatz: We should focus on strengthening oversight, tightening regulations were needed, and ensuring the program operates the way that congress intended. Thank you to our witnesses for testifying today. I look forward to our discussion.
▶ 0:28:12Chair Murkowski: Senator mullin, would you care to make an opening statement? I know you intended to introduce our first witness. If you would begin.
▶ 0:28:26Sen. Mullin: Thank you to the panel for being here and the chair for getting this hearing together because we get a lot of phone calls about it when it first came out. I had the privilege to introduce my chief, chief hoskin's, who has been a good friend of mine and to oklahoma and especially northeast oklahoma. Chief, it is always great to have you in this committee.
▶ 0:28:54Sen. Mullin: I know you will bring important perspective to this topic as cherokee federal is the largest contractor headquartered in the state of oklahoma. Cherokee federal, the cherokee nation serves more than 60 federal agencies, supports every branch of our military, and protects security by assisting our brave war fighters at home and abroad.
▶ 0:29:17Sen. Mullin: Earlier this month, cherokee federal companies were recently selected to be part of the mission supporting the buildup of the president's golden dome missile defense system. I love to see the impact this is having three our state and across the globe.
▶ 0:29:33Sen. Mullin: When I'm back home around northeast oklahoma, which is home to me, I see tangible things that will not be possible without cherokee nation as federal contractor revenue and continued expansion on the health care system in my town, a new housing upgrading water systems in rural oklahoma, and I think one of the most important things, and I have been working on this, is the cherokee
▶ 0:30:07Sen. Mullin: Language campus. Under cherokee nation leadership, they have built a campus that teaches kids the cherokee nation language and they are taught at school. They rewrite the curriculum. They have an entire division rewriting the books in cherokee and exclusively cherokee languages taught k through eighth grade. In ninth grade, it goes into english.
▶ 0:30:36Sen. Mullin: What a way to preserve the cherokee tongue. I want to say this on a different note, on a personal note. My kids went to a small k-8 school and everybody knows everybody in that small community and the principal at the time drove the bus. The coaches drove the buses.
▶ 0:31:06Sen. Mullin: Everybody drove the buses. I was taking my kids to school one morning and a school bus broke down in front of me. They only had three buses running and I called the chief -- I think you called me. I think I was on the phone with the chief and I said, we got another bus broke down and he is started chuckling about it. Before I knew it, at that time the principal had called me a few days later and said, cherokee nation is buying a new bus.
▶ 0:31:37Sen. Mullin: A lot of people do not see the impact that this happens, but because the programs we are talking about today allows the investments back in our communities. So much work has been done through our community because of not just cherokee nation but other tribes that operate within our state but it is neat to see the direct impact and how fast they can move.
▶ 0:32:01Sen. Mullin: There is no telling how long it would take to get a bus if it was not for cherokee nation and they did it in days, not months or years for budgeting. Thank you for doing this again. I cannot stay the entire hearing, but I will stay as long as I can.
▶ 0:32:20Chair Murkowski: Thank you for reminding so many that often the benefits that go back to the community are not making the front page of the big newspapers. They are making a difference in the lives of those who live in the community and these are some of the intangibles that we need to I guess make more tangible and more visible because the benefits are huge.
▶ 0:32:52Chair Murkowski: To your point, if those kids could not get to school, everybody has a problem. And you could have just waited but decisions are made and you have the nimbleness to respond because of how benefits can flow back to the tribal organizations . A good example. I appreciate that.
▶ 0:33:16Chair Murkowski: To you, chief, thank you for being here today and we are looking forward to your testimony before the committee. You have been before on multiple occasions and we welcome you back.
▶ 0:33:33Sen. Mullin: It was not the principal. It was the superintendent. I will get a phone call on that one.
▶ 0:33:37Chair Murkowski: The record stands corrected. Following Mr. hoskin -- chief hoskin's testimony to what we are joined by katherine carlton, president of the chugach alaska corporation and the policy chair of the native american contractors association. She is seen frequently here in washington, D.C..
▶ 0:34:07Chair Murkowski: Your advocacy on behalf of all the native american contractors is appreciated, so thank you for joining us today. Also coming from alaska is polly watson, the vice president of operations for the crystal bay native and has been one of our significant leaders in her region for years and I know will offer strong testimony today in helping us understand some of the community benefits and senator schatz has introduced
▶ 0:34:38Chair Murkowski: Cariann ah loo, president of the native hawaiian organizations association. We will begin with you, chief hoskin. Your full statements will be incorporated as part of the record. If you would try to keep your comments to about five minutes, we will have plenty of opportunity for discussion afterward. Chief, you can start us off this morning.
▶ 0:35:07Chief Hoskin: Chair murkowski, vice chair, senator mullin, I appreciate the importance -- the ability to testify on the importance of the small business administration program. Tribal self-determination requires economic self-sufficiency. For decades, the federal government recognized and encouraged this principle. Sadly, that idea is under attack .
▶ 0:35:36Chief Hoskin: These attacks undermine the progress the tribal nations have worked for to achieve. The primary objective of cherokee nation businesses and the dedicated contracting arm is to reduce our reliance on federal appropriations.
▶ 0:35:52Chief Hoskin: Our government to government relationship with the united states dates to the founding of the country, that we must and do work to hold the united states to its treaty and trust responsibilities, after more than 250 years we are still waiting for the united states to fully comply. At cherokee nation, we are restless, ambitious, and we refused to wait. We have worked diligently to carve our own economic path to make up for centuries of economic disenfranchisement.
▶ 0:36:21Chief Hoskin: Sba's 8(a) program has been key to this effort. The 8(a) program is not a handout. It is not a d.e.I. Initiative. It is established by statute pursuant to the indian commerce clause of the united states constitution. It is a modern extension of the sovereign to sovereign relationship. That point bears repeating.
▶ 0:36:46Chief Hoskin: Cherokee nation's participation in the 8(a) program is not race-based. The supreme court affirmed the relationship between the united states and federally recognized tribes is political not racial. The 8(a) program reflects this political and legal relationship. This is settled law. It is discouraging to now here some federal officials claim differently.
▶ 0:37:12Chief Hoskin: Those claims are either designed to fit a preferred narrative or born of ignorance. Cherokee nation's contracting arm is a vital contributor to the federal industrial base. Serving more than 60 federal agencies. We operate in defense, technology, health, and intelligence sectors, offering innovative capabilities in support of this country and its war fighters.
▶ 0:37:38Chief Hoskin: Each day, our global workforce of 4500 officials that professionals demonstrates our work is rooted in merit, performance, and fulfillment of the long term sovereign mission. Our contracting work translates into tangible impacts for citizens, government, and northeast oklahoma. Under tribal law, our companies are required to return a minimum of 37% of their net income to cherokee nation general fund.
▶ 0:38:08Chief Hoskin: Those resources are reinvested directly into services and programs that improve the daily lives of cherokee nation citizens. The remaining funds stay in our businesses to create more jobs and more opportunity. The funds provided to our government by our businesses help sustain the largest tribally operated health system in indian country cannot revitalize our culture and heritage, and modernize critical infrastructure to ensure long-term self-sufficiency.
▶ 0:38:37Chief Hoskin: Over the last decade, our contracting businesses have contributed at least 364 million businesses -- dollars to these essential programs. Given our success and what it means to the cherokee people and in light of the unfair criticism , I must tell you I am worried that this criticism will stall our progress and become another unfulfilled promise by the united states. Cherokee nation supports transparent and well-regulated 8(a) program.
▶ 0:39:11Chief Hoskin: Credible claims of wrongdoing should be investigated and lawbreakers should be held accountable, but need a the program -- and the program are not high risk endeavors marked by fraud or abuse. Words matter, especially reckless words. I am not here to debate the use of terms like fraud magnet, crooks and swindlers, which have been used to characterize participants in the program, including to letters to federal agencies.
▶ 0:39:39Chief Hoskin: I will say these unfounded claims are having a chilling effect on our operations. Our teams, a court of whom are veterans and all of whom pride themselves on their integrity, are now facing questions from contracting officers about whether their operations, our operations, are under investigation. They should not be asked to bear this burden. The program has been transformative.
▶ 0:40:08Chief Hoskin: It leads to self-sufficiency and congress should stand by it.
▶ 0:40:14Chair Murkowski: Thank you, chief.
▶ 0:40:17Ms. Carlton: Thank you for the opportunity to testify today. My name is katherine carlton. I serve as president of chugach alaska corporation and current policy chair of the native american contractors association and a proud chugach shareholder. I was born in alaska, a small fishing town with a population of about 2500. The sba 8(a) program has been foundational to my journey.
▶ 0:40:48Ms. Carlton: My education was supported through programs funded by federal contractor earnings. I began my career as an accounting technician supporting our contracts and progress through a range of finance and operational leadership roles, including serving as president of our training and education subsidiaries. Today I have the privilege of leading the corporation and reinvesting earnings back into our people.
▶ 0:41:11Ms. Carlton: That first hand experience demonstrates how the program works in practice as a performance-based pathway that converts revenue into lasting community opportunity. With that perspective in mind, I want to walk through key points. Congress created alaska in eight of corporations to advance the long-term social, cultural, and economic well-being of the alaskan aid people and recognized tribes and native hawaiian organizations as eligible participants based on a
▶ 0:41:41Ms. Carlton: Long-standing political and legal relationship, not race. Chugach has partnership with the united states through the 8(a) program and it provided the pathway to recover from the devastating oil spill in our region and rebuild our business. Today we operate 8(a) and non-eight a companies that compete side-by-side as congress intended.
▶ 0:42:05Ms. Carlton: We deliver 32 .6 million in community and shareholder benefits in 2024, supporting education, workforce training, and economic stability. Our scholarship and training programs equip alaska natives with transferable skills. Our cultural programs past knowledge to the next generation and community infrastructure projects like the housing facility strengthen local resilience.
▶ 0:42:35Ms. Carlton: Across member companies, native contractors delivered $1.3 billion in community benefits in 2024, the outcome congress envisioned. Through the program, native owned firms delivered mission-critical services that support national security.
▶ 0:42:51Ms. Carlton: Chugach services hundreds of infrastructure communications and sustainment contracts that keep essential systems online from operating airfield systems and naval air station at the home of top gun to sustained mission essential communications aboard U.S. navy vessels. This work is awarded not by preference but because of our proven performance and reliability under strict oversight.
▶ 0:43:16Ms. Carlton: The 8(a) program gives federal agencies lawful options when urgency and efficiency matter. In practice, the awards often execute in 30 to 60 days compared to 12 to 18 months for traditional procurements, reducing an cost overhead and mission delay. Sole-source authority is often misunderstood but is not a shortcut or loophole.
▶ 0:43:43Ms. Carlton: Every contract still has to be approved, priced fairly, and follow strict profit limits set by law. Agencies must review company qualifications, evaluate proposals, and negotiate final price. Often creating more oversight transparency and value for taxpayers than traditional competitive processes.
▶ 0:44:03Ms. Carlton: Native 8(a) companies operate under some of the most restrictive requirements, including audited financials, eligibility reviews, and detailed reporting. That rigor is why members are trusted partners of the united states government. We support oversight that is targeted, data driven, and fair because misuse anywhere in the system undermines trust everywhere.
▶ 0:44:28Ms. Carlton: Will be caution against our one-size-fits-all changes and dismantling a program that works for taxpayers and native communities alike. Recent media coverage has painted a misleading picture of the 8(a) program. Congress acts on that misinformation by weakening the tools, the consequences will be real. Agencies lose speed and flexibility. Missions face disruption and scholarships shrink, jobs disappear, and opportunity narrows for the next generation.
▶ 0:45:01Ms. Carlton: Members of the committee, thank you for your leadership and I look forward to the opportunity to share perspective and answer your questions.
▶ 0:45:13Ms. Watson: Thank you. Thank you for the opportunity to testify today. I am polly watson, here on behalf of an alaska need corporation formed under the settlement act. I have worked for bbnc for over eight years and currently serve as the vice president of operations. I'm also a bbnc shareholder.
▶ 0:45:41Ms. Watson: My family is from a village of less than 100 residents located on the eastern side of the alaska peninsula, roughly 500 miles from anchorage, and about a $600 round-trip airline ticket per person to go home. Bbnc has more than 12,000 alaska native shareholders and approximately 11,000 descendants who have ancestral ties to the bristol bay region.
▶ 0:46:11Ms. Watson: The mission of bristol bay native is enriching our native way of life. We deliver on this mission in a myriad of ways, pain direct financial quarterly dividends to shareholders, providing educational and vocational scholarships, assisting the workforce development and job searches, promoting cultural and language preservation, memorial fund, and being good stewards of the land and resources in the
▶ 0:46:43Ms. Watson: Bristol bay region. Lands are people have relied on for subsistence for thousands of years. Bbnc is able to provide these services to shareholders and descendants in large part due to the financial strength and successes of our operating subsidiaries. We operate a diverse portfolio of businesses, several of which participate in the sba 8(a) program.
▶ 0:47:08Ms. Watson: These companies deliver critical services to federal agencies in areas such as logistics, construction, information technology, professional services, and mission support. The program functions as an outcome driven model with performance tied to shareholder benefit and community reinvestment.
▶ 0:47:29Ms. Watson: One example is our in-house mentorship program through which we mentor independent village corporations in our region to become successful federal contractors. Through this program, we share compliant systems and operational support that they can compete on their own. This approach builds local capacity, create additional benefits to those villages and shareholders, and expands the pool of qualified small contractors serving the federal government.
▶ 0:48:01Ms. Watson: Another example is our partnership with the state of alaska division of motor vehicles to deliver mobile dmv services to rural villages. Through this program, we have worked with the dmv to bring real id and driver's license services to seven villages in the region, serving 544 rural residents.
▶ 0:48:22Ms. Watson: By bringing the services to villages, we remove barriers to obtaining real id and driver's license and make it easier for residents while reducing burdens on families and the state. The federal government benefits directly from contracting with bbnc's experience and talent driven companies.
▶ 0:48:46Ms. Watson: Agencies receive high-quality services delivered at a competitive cost in mission areas such as defense, infrastructure, health care, and professional services. Speed and reliability matter. Bbnc establishes clear accountability through strong governance.
▶ 0:49:08Ms. Watson: Our compliance program, employee tenure, and we have continuous regulatory reviews and performance monitoring. This layer of governance strengthens internal controls, enhances transparency, and reduces performance risks for government customers. We take this response ability seriously because our shareholders and our community depend on it.
▶ 0:49:35Ms. Watson: The sba program is a proven mechanism for building lasting economy capacity and strengthens alaska native communities, delivers value to the federal and state partners, and creates opportunity where it is most needed. Thank you for this opportunity to testify.
▶ 0:49:53Chair Murkowski: Finally we will hear from cariann ah loo.
▶ 0:49:59Ms. Ah Loo: Good morning. Thank you for the opportunity to testify today. I am president of the native hawaiian organization association. I am the chairperson of a native hawaiian organization and serve as a board member of the native american contractors association.
▶ 0:50:24Ms. Ah Loo: I appreciate your leadership in examining how the sba's 8(a) program supports self-determination in native communities. It is not about preference or advantage. It is about creating lasting economic pathways -- blasting pathways to economic participation the benefits the government and native communities.
▶ 0:50:48Ms. Ah Loo: Native hawaiian organizations or nhos perform federal work and the proceeds are reinvested directly into the native hawaiian community. Into education, workforce development, health-care, cultural preservation, and land conservation. That reinvestment is not optional. It is a condition of participation in the program and how the program is designed to function.
▶ 0:51:20Ms. Ah Loo: From the government perspective, nho owned firms are not simply small businesses. They are mission focused partners built for long-term planning, disciplined compliance, and sustain performance across civilian defense agencies. These firms support construction and facilities modernization, cybersecurity, infrastructure protection, and other critical functions.
▶ 0:51:45Ms. Ah Loo: The flexibility of the 8(a) program allows agencies to move faster, tailor solutions to mission needs, and reduce procurement timelines while maintaining pricing safeguards and accountability. Sole source does not mean unchecked. Agencies must conduct market research, develop independent estimates, and ensure fair market value.
▶ 0:52:10Ms. Ah Loo: In practice, the flexibility often reduce -- produces better outcomes than rigid lowest price competitions that can lead to delays, cost overruns, and underperformance. For native communities, the impact is tangible and measurable. Native hawaiian continue to face a structural economic challenges rooted in history. High housing costs, income and stability, health disparities, and limited access to capital.
▶ 0:52:36Ms. Ah Loo: The 8(a) program provides a practical way to address challenges by creating jobs, generating sustainable resources rather than relying on public assistance. Between 2018 and 2024, nho member organizations directed 100 million dollars back into the native hawaiian community. The investments supported wildlife recovery, scholarships, internships, workforce training, and cultural programs.
▶ 0:53:08Ms. Ah Loo: Even after an 8(a) business graduates from the program, commitment to community continues because the mission does not end when eligibility does. It is important to understand large contract values do not translate into windfall profits. Contract dollars are paid over time, after work is performed and must cover payroll, subcontractors, materials, insurance, and service data.
▶ 0:53:33Ms. Ah Loo: Community investment are made deliberately and responsibly, ensuring long-term for the -- it serves. Accountability is essential for native entities. Compliance is not just a legal requirement. It is foundational to the credibility and long-term viability. Nhoa and other native trade organizations invest heavily in compliance and proactive engagement.
▶ 0:54:02Ms. Ah Loo: We welcome objective, fact-based oversight of the strengthens program integrity and deters abuse without undermining the structure congress intentionally created. Participation by nhos in the 8(a) program rests on congress's authority and the political trust relationship with native peoples, not on race-based preference. With the program works as intended, results are clear.
▶ 0:54:31Ms. Ah Loo: Federal agencies receive capable quit mission ready partners, and native communities gain tools for genuine economic self-determination. Mission performance and community impact are not separate outcomes. They are structurally linked, preserving the balance between accountability, flexibility, and scale will allow the program to continue delivering for all stakeholders. Thank you for your leadership and the opportunity to share nhoa's perspective.
▶ 0:54:58Chair Murkowski: Senator mullin, you indicated you might not have time. If you would like to proceed with your questions first, I'm happy to defer.
▶ 0:55:08Sen. Mullin: That would be awesome. Thank you. First, thank you to everybody for being here. My question is going to be referred mainly to chief. You said that 30% of the income from cherokee nation on businesses flows into the general fund and that is -- I think you said that his law that requires that. Does that apply to cherokee federal?
▶ 0:55:38Chief Hoskin: It does. Our statute says 37%. The idea that I think it gets suggested sometimes that the corporations associated with cherokee nation are somehow disassociated with the tribe would be mystifying to most cherokees because it is -- 37% of the net profit goes into our government programs and the result is really incredible.
▶ 0:56:06Chief Hoskin: So the health system you and I grew up in, top-down, underfunded, that does not exist in cherokee nation anymore because the revenue we bring into build clinics and hospitals and fund special programs -- we can do that. Scholarships. 5000 kids are on scholarship now because that 37% goes to fund scholarships. Otherwise we cannot fund peer and housing.
▶ 0:56:35Chief Hoskin: It is about the same today on native housing that it did two decades ago. What we do? We passed a law that says on top of the 37% we get $40 million to bring to bear to build new housing. We can solve problems because we have this revenue flow through our diversified business portfolio but federal contracting has been key to that.
▶ 0:56:57Sen. Mullin: Was the chief is talking about with the health care system, we grew up going to hastings and received dental, surgeries, vision. I used it a lot. And now that hospital or building is turned into a partnership with oklahoma state to train new doctors specifically for rural america and indian country. What a great partnership that is.
▶ 0:57:26Sen. Mullin: It is wonderful to be able to go to that building now or I have a lot of bad memories from and see it be used to train our next generation of health care providers. Not to put you in a bad spot, but do you know how much money you flow into these programs?
▶ 0:57:44Chief Hoskin: The 37% dividend -- I'm not prepared to tell you our entire business, but over the last decade just federal contracting, that portion has put 360 $4 million into cherokee nation so our marshals here today to give you one more example.
▶ 0:58:04Chief Hoskin: When his agency had to meet at the moment for rickert -- mcgirt,, that 364 million dollars from federal contracting, some of that went immediately -- scaling up the law enforcement system.
▶ 0:58:26Chief Hoskin: I could go up and down the spreadsheet and show you how that just from federal contracting has solved problems not only for cherokees and not only for zion school but countless other communities that are counting on the cherokee nation. Rural northeast oklahoma would hurt incredibly bad if suddenly the contracting was sucked out of the economy.
▶ 0:58:54Sen. Mullin: It is common for councilmembers to actually -- this is one of their biggest jobs. They are able to bring funding into their district faster than we can bring in federal funding. An example is the last mile going to our home, our ranch, the public schools got where they could not run their buses down it because it was so bad and there was a public private
▶ 0:59:27Sen. Mullin: Partnership -- it was public private private partnership that took place because between us, cherokee nation, and the county, we were able to repave that last mile to let the buses go down. They were not picking up our kids.
▶ 0:59:43Sen. Mullin: Our kids were going to a different -- but it benefits as the chief says not just native citizens but non-natives as well and that is one of the advantages we have. Cherokee nation, choctaw, and the other tribes responsible for certain counties, they do the same thing. Thank you for that testimony. Thank you for giving this opportunity. I have to run. Thank you so much.
▶ 1:00:14Chair Murkowski: I appreciate the perspective that you bring to discussions like this with lived experiences so we always get great witnesses but when you can give real-world examples that you and your family have experienced.
▶ 1:00:33Sen. Mullin: I have only grown up in one place, and that is indian country.
▶ 1:00:37Chair Murkowski: Vice chair.
▶ 1:00:40Sen. Schatz: Thank you, chair murkowski, and thank you to all of you for your testimony. Ms. ah loo cannot we all know this room but it is important for the record to state that there are different kinds of entities that can participate in the 8(a) program and it can get complicated. Can you help us understand what nhl -- nho is in these programs?
▶ 1:01:13Ms. Ah Loo: An nho is a native hawaiian organization chartered in the state of hawaii, a nonprofit entity. We are chaired by individuals.
▶ 1:01:32Ms. Ah Loo: The native hawaiian organization must be controlled by native hawaiian's and we work side-by-side with our anc partners and our tribal partners but we operate under different rules and laws.
▶ 1:01:47Sen. Schatz: Tell me about the success of nho's over the last two years because of 8(a).
▶ 1:01:56Ms. Ah Loo: We have been able to increase our presence in the federal sector and in doing so and becoming more mature we have been able to generate significant proceeds that we have an to invest into community organizations, some of which you are probably familiar with, the polynesian voyaging society, along the palace -- these help our community with workforce develop a training --
▶ 1:02:26Ms. Ah Loo: Development training, entrepreneurship classes, cultural preservation, and other educational opportunities.
▶ 1:02:35Sen. Schatz: So the law requires that tribes commit anc, and nho 's report on the benefits they provide.
▶ 1:02:47Sen. Schatz: It seems in our interactions over the last couple days and my staff interaction over months and years, it seems the sba requirements are rather slender and that you folks are actually doing a more robust reporting than what the statute or rules require. Can you elucidate what you're doing?
▶ 1:03:12Ms. Ah Loo: The sba reporting requirements are slim and generalized. In 2018, we were asked by our congressman to gather the statistics for our members and so we began asking our member organizations to provide us with specific give back information that we were than aggregating as a trade organization and we have been doing it ever since.
▶ 1:03:41Sen. Schatz: That level of specificity is not a requirement.
▶ 1:03:47Ms. Ah Loo: Correct.
▶ 1:03:48Sen. Schatz: I think that is worthy of following up on because to the extent that there is a desire to get more fidelity on exactly what is happening commit money coming in for the contracting, money pushed out to nonprofits, I think that is a valid thing to want, people who have a problem with 8(a) and people who believe it is doing exactly what congress intended
▶ 1:04:18Sen. Schatz: Should want more data. It seems to me it is on sba to ask for the things that they are alleging do not exist, especially when you're kind of pushing on an open door here. All the 8(a)s are saying we have it and would be pleased to provide it. Maybe we can standardize it between agencies and tribal organizations and nho's but I do not hear anybody saying we do not want to give you the data.
▶ 1:04:45Sen. Schatz: I think what we are hearing is you never asked us for this data. But we have it. Is that fair to say?
▶ 1:04:50Ms. Ah Loo: That is. I think any nho would be happy to provide more data if asked for it.
▶ 1:04:59Sen. Schatz: Can you provide the committee with a summary of the economic benefit side and the nonprofit benefit side of what you have been doing over the last five years? I think what we need to do here is to lean into the premise that congress establishes programs. It is scaling up.
▶ 1:05:28Sen. Schatz: It is a successful program, but like any government contracting program you need to make sure that the audit function, that oversight, that procurement is as tight as possible. To me this is a high-quality quality problem to have.
▶ 1:05:52Sen. Schatz: If no one were participating, the law would maybe not be functioning, but we have people doing important things in their native communities and the more data the committee can have any more data the american taxpayer has that this is worth it to them, I think this program can grow and survive for another several generations.
▶ 1:06:19Chair Murkowski: Thank you for that. That is one of the reasons we are having this hearing, because of what some of these misconceptions are out there. We are seeing this heightened scrutiny, the public and media attention to the program, and I think there is a lot of misconception out there about how it works but also understanding not only the program statutory purpose but
▶ 1:06:50Chair Murkowski: The accountability required in law and are than additive based on the determinations that you are making but the effort to to create a solid record here is important today. So you will have provided in my view exceptionally strong testimony. I appreciate that.
▶ 1:07:14Chair Murkowski: And if I ask some questions that you think are repetitive because he has stated it a little bit, it is because I think we need to enunciate and underscore so I want to focus my questions on the things that I want to come from this committee and that is a focus on immunity benefits, on compliance aspects of it, and let me just speak about -- ask about the community benefits first.
▶ 1:07:43Chair Murkowski: I think the exchange we just saw with the chief and senator mullin was instructive as it relates to the program and some of the local commit like getting a new bus to efforts on law enforcement, housing, health care.
▶ 1:08:06Chair Murkowski: These are substantive, real, meaningful, and making a difference just as the law and the obligation that we have under the federal trust responsibility requires so I think we saw some real sensitive examples there.
▶ 1:08:26Chair Murkowski: For the agencies, it is different with ancsa and this model of self-determination so I will turn to you about the ancsa framework and how it ties in with the 8(a) program and the importance of 8(a) to the shareholders.
▶ 1:08:49Ms. Carlton: Thank you, senator. The alaska native claims settlement act was enacted by congress in 19 71 and congress wanted to do a different system than the reservation system down in the lower 48 to settle the land claims of the alaska native people. For profit corporations were set up and charged with advancing the social, cultural, and economic well-being of shareholders.
▶ 1:09:15Ms. Carlton: The missing piece from this structure was the economic engine and the 8(a) program filled this gap. It allowed us to build businesses, generate revenue, and compete in the federal marketplace. This revenue makes our benefits possible and turns economic opportunity into lasting benefits for our shareholders.
▶ 1:09:38Chair Murkowski: You have some long-term and perhaps unique experiences within the 8(a) program and ensuring community benefits. Can you talk a little about what the 8(a) program and bbnc participation has meant to you? You note that you were raised in a small community in perryville.
▶ 1:10:13Chair Murkowski: Who obviously had an opportunity to go out and get education beyond the region. Maybe you can speak to that a little bit.
▶ 1:10:23Ms. Watson: My presence here today is a symbol of the real impact of the 8(a) program and bbnc's participation in it. As a shareholder commit many opportunities I have had are directly tied to the economic capacity this program helps create. In addition to receiving quarterly dividends, I have benefited from resume assistance and career development resources.
▶ 1:10:48Ms. Watson: I participated in a one year on the job training program I completed the two year management development program commit training without walls, which played a role in preparing me for leadership response abilities. I am a scholarship recipient and I'm currently pursuing my third degree. The impact extends beyond me. My daughter is also a scholarship recipient and currently a senior completing her bachelor's degree.
▶ 1:11:16Ms. Watson: She participated in bbnc's young adult culture camp. My niece earned her two bachelor's degrees from brown university and her master's degree from the university of michigan, where she currently is pursuing her phd and during one of her summer breaks she participated in the internship program. When she transitioned from brown to michigan, she received emergency funding to help support that move.
▶ 1:11:45Ms. Watson: I would be remiss if I did not mention my son, who joined the united states marine corps. He was able to use his bbnc dividends he saved for the payment on his first house that he should be closing on this week.
▶ 1:12:01Ms. Watson: These are just a few examples of -- that I know personally that impact not only myself but my family members with direct outcomes resulting from sustained, responsible participation in the 8(a) program where bbnc reinvested in shareholders and the community. The program connects economic development and creates opportunities that extend across generations into the future.
▶ 1:12:30Chair Murkowski: I love the very specific and personal example in your family of generations that have benefited through the scholarship opportunities and thank you for your son's service and your family as you support him. I appreciate what you have shared about one example being the mobile dmv, department of motor vehicles.
▶ 1:12:57Chair Murkowski: Most people would not think that is any kind of big deal, but when you're in a community that is not connected by roads to other places I think you said it was $1600 to get yourself from perryville to anchorage, where you might be going to get your real id. People cannot get their idea if they cannot get a drivers license.
▶ 1:13:24Chair Murkowski: Opportunities for travel and health care and work opportunities are limited so it may seem like a simple thing. It is like the bus purchase, but it means real value, real differences to people. Senator cortez masto.
▶ 1:13:43Sen. Cortez Masto: Thank you to the chairwoman and ranking member for having this hearing. It is important. And to the panelists for participating. We have watched this whole business administration and other agencies have launched audits, requested access to data commit made sweeping suspensions of 8(a) participating companies. I fully agree that to the extent there is fraud or waste we should be cleaning that up. And protecting taxpayer dollars.
▶ 1:14:13Sen. Cortez Masto: I do not think anybody disagrees. I am worried about the aggressive and abrupt changes that this administration is taking which will chill legitimate tribal businesses participation in the to the extent that fraud is an issue, it would be better to allow the inspector general to conduct investigation rather than this haphazard suspending companies from the program that we have seen this administration
▶ 1:14:45Sen. Cortez Masto: . That is why I so appreciate the conversation about the importance and positive impacts of the 8(a) program and what it brought to the tribal communities and native communities across the country. Thank you for talking about it. This is one example where we don't throw the baby out with the bathwater. This is where we still provide relief and support. In nevada, we have nearly 2000 native american owned firms.
▶ 1:15:15Sen. Cortez Masto: The 8(a) program creates many good paying jobs. It supports small business success and expands economic opportunity where it is needed most. I'm curious if any of you can address in what ways does the federal government benefit by delivering contracting rewards through this program? I'm curious if any of you have thought about that in any way and can talk to that.
▶ 1:15:46Sen. Cortez Masto: Chief. >> I can say that our federal contracting arm, cherokee federal, is an excellent deliverer of services and we build capacity over the years. For the united states to have more capacity across the country is inherently a good thing.
▶ 1:16:13Sen. Cortez Masto: We are looked at as an entity that can deliver for war fighters in the front lines. We are working with the department of defense on front line military support but also things united states needs to focus on and does focus on, which is to support war fighters.
▶ 1:16:38Sen. Cortez Masto: We might be operating on the same day for supporting missile defense systems. We are also working to make sure women, infants and children programs are delivered to military families. The cherokee nation began his federal contract journey through a company called cherokee nation industries.
▶ 1:17:06Sen. Cortez Masto: Today thousands of employees around the globe are ready to move. We are nimble. We have proven it. The united states needs more of that, not less of it and they will have less of it if what we are hearing through this rhetoric continues. It has had a chilling effect. We have got our folks at cherokee federal talking to contracting officers and asking questions about whether we are under investigation. Whether there is fraud afoot.
▶ 1:17:37Sen. Cortez Masto: We should be talking about how effectively art are and we can solve problems. We have a demonstrated record of solving problems across that broad range of delivery. I think we have made the nation stronger as a result of us increasing capacity.
▶ 1:17:49Sen. Cortez Masto: Anyone else on that subject? I think that is absolutely right. There are so many benefits here this administration is not taking into account. I really appreciate your comments. I think all of us do on the panel. I have a little bit of time left. I will yield that time.
▶ 1:18:10Sen. Cortez Masto: I think the comments you have all made, the benefits of the program, the fact that we are seeing a generation of business owners and entrepreneurs in native communities, not now but also for the future, it matters. It is a benefit not just to communities but to the federal government as well. Thank you.
▶ 1:18:32Chair Murkowski: Senator daines.
▶ 1:18:36Sen. Daines: The small business administration 8(a) program has helped tribal businesses in montana grow and develop to serve communities. Without a significant tax base tribes are forced to find creative ways to generate revenue to fund important government functions. In social services or they can be completely dependent on federal funding.
▶ 1:19:07Sen. Daines: Tribally owned entities in montana. Sm k technologies, buffalo horse inc., they utilize training opportunities through the 8(a) program to enhance self-determination and create long-term economic sustainability for the tribes.
▶ 1:19:28Sen. Daines: By participating in the program these companies have matured in a competitive, international enterprise that assist the federal government in crucial security, intelligence, support and technology services. Their proceeds are distributed directly to the tribe's general fund for health care, education, infrastructure, resource management, housing and other essential services.
▶ 1:19:56Sen. Daines: Both companies will tell you they are welcome -- they welcome oversight and they want to see more oversight and they condemn any and all instances of fraud. They are good-faith actors with a proven and impressive record over several years in the program. The value of the 8(a) program is it is driven by outcomes.
▶ 1:20:22Sen. Daines: Trusted, reliable partners who can deliver valuable services and balance the complex compliance requirements. They can streamline the procurement process. They can deliver services faster and continued growth. -- continue growth. Could you explain why 8(a) contracting is an effective enterprise for rural tribes? In montana basically everything is rule.
▶ 1:20:53Sen. Daines: In alaska everything is rural. In montana, ruled with a capital r.
▶ 1:21:03Ms. Carlton: Thank you for the question. There is limited economic opportunity in our rural communities in the region. Our shareholders often want to stay where they are born and they want to continue with their subsistence way of life. I think the 8(a) program helps in three ways. We are able to use earnings to pay dividends back to the shareholders, which helps influx cash into the villages.
▶ 1:21:31Ms. Carlton: We also have created workforce development options for remote work for some shareholders so they can stay in their villages and work for our corporation. Third, we have been working on creating economic development opportunities in these communities. For instance, in valdez, alaska, we developed workforce housing which now employees people and also helps with the shortage of housing.
▶ 1:21:57Sen. Daines: Thank you for those examples. I want to pivot to principal chief koskinen. Can you share with the 8(a) program meant for the cherokee nation?
▶ 1:22:09Chief Hoskin: It has been transformational. Before cherokee nation built the 8(a) program and scaled up an impressive and effective partner for the united states as far as being a veteran contractor, my predecessors and other tribal leaders could not find the revenue to fill gaps that existed then and still exist.
▶ 1:22:37Chief Hoskin: Federal appropriations are not what we would all like them to be in terms of health care needs, housing needs, the best investment that we could ever make which is education. Those things are gaps that are unfilled without revenue from the tribe. Because of the way our businesses are set up under tribal statute to deliver a minimum of 37% of net profit back to the tribal coffers so we can invest in all these things, it is changing lives.
▶ 1:23:08Chief Hoskin: We can have the largest housing investment in the history of the cherokee nation solely because we have this business portfolio that is diversified generating revenue. My grandfather would be amazed that I could say we have 14,000 employees around the world. Thousands and thousands of them worked directly for these companies that are delivering for the united states. Health care.
▶ 1:23:36Chief Hoskin: We've gone from a system of top-down, underfunded ihs programs to bottom up, cherokee nation-driven system of world-class wellness. Why? We have the revenue to build hospitals, clinics, schools for nursing, schools for physicians, jobs, recruitment, young cherokees can see what they can be.
▶ 1:24:03Chief Hoskin: We can make it happen because of those dollars coming in. I could go on and on. It has really been transformational, from language development to economic development. It has changed the landscape and the future of the cherokee nation.
▶ 1:24:18Sen. Daines: I think he just cut a tv commercial right there. [laughter]
▶ 1:24:23Chair Murkowski: Appreciate that. You all have had really helped build the record in terms of benefits. I want to just, call meant a moment Ms. carlton. You mentioned one of the benefits is cash into the villages. That sounds great. I'm going to get boatloads of cash, right? I'm going to go to hawaii. No.
▶ 1:24:54Chair Murkowski: Can you please share with the committee and miss watson -- [laughter] what? Oh. Not that there's anything wrong with going to hawaii. [laughter] my husband is just coming back from hawaii this morning. It is called back home. -- cold back home. Many villages are sturdily expensive to live.
▶ 1:25:24Chair Murkowski: You just mentioned $1600 to get from perryville to anchorage. One of my little cheat sheets I carry around with me in the community of napakiak. A four by eight sheet of plywood is $140. A two by four is $17 when you can get it for $2.99 if you're going to home depot.
▶ 1:25:55Chair Murkowski: When we say cash into the village, it is helping to offset the extraordinarily high costs of living. Everything from food to materials to air transportation. This is not lining people's pockets in a way that some would say is excessive. I wanted -- wait.
▶ 1:26:27Chair Murkowski: I jumped ahead of you. I'm sorry. Senator daines has a last question and this was to defer to you. See how this works. We are compatible except to say don't go to hawaii. [laughter] we have talked about the benefits side. Thank you for that.
▶ 1:26:48Chair Murkowski: I also recognize that sometimes questions arise when community members might not support the benefits provided by the anc's, and ho, the tribes or the lines of business the tribes are pursuing. This is what self-determination is about.
▶ 1:27:12Chair Murkowski: This is the opportunity or the advantage of internal oversight mechanisms that allow community members to raise concerns, help influence the decision but those are decisions that are made. I think you had mentioned some of the internal governance structures you have with regard to the native nho.
▶ 1:27:47Chair Murkowski: Anything further that you would add in terms of internal governance structures that provide oversight for the tribes for the anc's?
▶ 1:28:01Ms. Carlton: We are a mature organization and have built up a compliance department that contains compliance, legal, as well as -- as well as ethics offices.
▶ 1:28:27Ms. Carlton: This all allows us to make sure we monitor regularly our requirements and ensure adherence to our policies.
▶ 1:28:34Chair Murkowski: Let's speak about the compliance side. Is there anybody on the panel here who does not think we have an obligation not only from an oversight perspective but that you will have an obligation to ensure there is no fraud, waste or abuse within your system? Does anybody disagree that is not a responsibility? We are all clear. We are not afraid of compliance.
▶ 1:29:03Chair Murkowski: We are not afraid or concerned about the transparency, accountability that comes with these opportunities. I am seeing head nonce. We all agree -- nods. We all agree.
▶ 1:29:21Chair Murkowski: Several of you mentioned the concern that there is a mischaracterization that when you use terms like set-aside or sole sourced, no-bid, somehow these are the "fraud magnets" we have seen kicked around. I think you mentioned that sole sourced does not mean unchecked. This is really important to recognize this.
▶ 1:29:52Chair Murkowski: Some seem to think that somehow or other 8(a) contracts are easy to get. You can somehow or other game the system through subcontracting out the work. Miss watson, why don't you speak to that in terms of what goes into bidding for a set-aside contract?
▶ 1:30:16Chair Murkowski: What happens if the contractor fails to live up or perform to the standards that are set out there?
▶ 1:30:27Ms. Watson: Bbnc subsidiaries are responsible for their own contracting activity, performance and compliance. Compliance is a part of bbnc and the subsidiary culture and ethos. The term sole source can be misleading. Most awards require a rigorous and documented evaluation process.
▶ 1:30:52Ms. Watson: Your competitive 8(a) set-aside contracts, the firm's respond to a solicitation just as they would for any other federal contract. This includes submitting a detailed technical proposal, past performance documentation, management and staffing plans in the cost price proposal for evaluation. Even for 8(a) sole awards, this is not automatic.
▶ 1:31:18Ms. Watson: Contractors are typically required to provide capabilities, participate in briefings with the agency, submit detailed technical and pricing proposals down to the penny, and engage in line by line price negotiations. Officers must make formal determinations that the firm is qualified. That the price is fair and reasonable and that the award is in the government's best interest. Sba must approve the firm under its program rules.
▶ 1:31:51Ms. Watson: What happens if the contractor fails to perform? Federal contractors include performance standards and enforcement mechanisms. If a contractor fails to meet requirements, the government has multiple remedies.available this may include issuances of show cause notices, withholding of payments, negative performance evaluations and the performance assessment recording system, termination from default because are convenient and in
▶ 1:32:22Ms. Watson: Serious cases suspend to sort -- suspension or debarment. This can trigger review and potential consequences, including heightened oversight or removal from the program. From bbnc's perspective, failures result in internal corrective action, leadership changes or other government responses to protect the integrity of the enterprise. Thank you for the question.
▶ 1:32:47Chair Murkowski: It is pretty clear that this is not some easy sweetheart deal that you just kind of walk into and you don't have to perform. There are consequences. We have heard of the benefits the program brings to the federal government. I think that also is worth reinforcing and repeating.
▶ 1:33:17Chair Murkowski: The federal government is getting good value. The federal government does not have to come back to the 8(a) contractor. They do it because they are getting good value. The performance is good. I want to ask about that.
▶ 1:33:39Chair Murkowski: I also want to include into the record some statements that were collected by senator sullivan from dod officials about the benefits to the federal government of the 8(a) program. He drilled everybody and got statements and, to incorporate that as part of our record today.
▶ 1:34:02Chair Murkowski: I think probably all of you in preparation for this hearing have compiled examples of feedback you have received from contracting officers for your work. Would any of you care to share that? We will make all of it available for the record but if you want to give a few examples, I think that helps us here. Polly, do you want to start?
▶ 1:34:35Chair Murkowski: >> thank you. Yes. When this request came to us we immediately jumped on it and it was amazing to see how fast and flexible not only the folks that we employee together with the data but they also reached out to the agencies to provide examples as well. Those are the types of examples we handed over to sullivan's office.
▶ 1:35:03Chair Murkowski: One question we asked the folks who provided those examples said could be user name and they said absolutely. Please do. We appreciate the value you bring to us, the flexibility, the speed and reliability to these agencies.
▶ 1:35:21Chair Murkowski: Anybody else want to share examples? If you don't have them now we will incorporate them. I think it's important to reinforce the value the government gets from those that are associated. Senator cortez masto, did you have any questions you want to add? Ok. Senator schatz?
▶ 1:35:49Sen. Schatz: This is following up on something you said, chair. These federal agencies have full discretion to give a contract or not give a contract. 10 years ago when I was learning about the program, if you talk to the department of defense people in the procurement space they find the flexibility that 8(a)'s provide to be extremely useful.
▶ 1:36:20Sen. Schatz: A lot of the frustration as they are dealing with these giant crimes. They don't love it. Idiq and it's endlessly expensive and they are trying to move an aircraft carrier when you need something much more nimble than that.
▶ 1:36:38Sen. Schatz: The most essential point, besides we should get more data and we should codify the collection of that data, I'm fine with that, but the most essential point is that agencies have a choice whether or not they will contract and they keep doing it not because they are reviewing the old statute and worried about it. They are doing it because it is the best deal for their needs.
▶ 1:37:09Sen. Schatz: I don't want that to get lost here.
▶ 1:37:11Chair Murkowski: Thank you for reinforcing that. One final question. This is probably a question directed to either miss watson or Ms. carlton.
▶ 1:37:25Chair Murkowski: Can you walk us through why an 8(a) firm might want to subcontract out a portion of the work and how 8(a) firms might work with the contracting officer to ensure they are following the subcontracting limitations? That is something we have seen in some of the correspondence from the agencies. Somehow this is a nefarious deal.
▶ 1:37:51Ms. Watson: Subcontracting is normal. Including within the 8(a) program firms may subcontract portions of work to expertise, manage surge capacity, geographic and technical requirements or reduce executional risks on complex contracts. However, 8(a) firms must comply with strict limitations on subcontracting.
▶ 1:38:19Ms. Watson: This ensures that the participant performs the required percentage of work and maintains control over contract execution. To ensure compliance, firms work closely with the contracting officers and sba. This includes clearly defining workshare proposals, tracking labor and cost allocations during performance, maintaining complaint subcontracting agreements and documenting performance metrics.
▶ 1:38:47Ms. Watson: Contracting officers at sba may request periodic reporting, conduct audits will review performance data to verify compliance with the life of the contract. This is in addition to annual reporting to sba on this subject. Thank you.
▶ 1:39:04Chair Murkowski: Thank you for that. I think we have had good testimony. Some questions from members have helped to draw out a little more by way of example. I don't have any assumption that just because we have held this hearing that now everybody gets it.
▶ 1:39:27Chair Murkowski: That the folks over at sba and the department of defense are watching this hearing and saying ok, don't need to do anything more. I think we still have much more work to do on the education front. Your leadership in doing this and those that have joined us in the hearing room and are watching online, you also have a job to do.
▶ 1:39:52Chair Murkowski: I think we started out the hearing by saying there's been some mischaracterizations and that needs to be clarified and understood. I think just the example of the small hearing room and the fact that we are standing room only demonstrates to me how significant it is for anc's, nho 's and tribes across the country. It is significant.
▶ 1:40:19Chair Murkowski: I think it was you, chief, that said it is the modern extension of sovereign to sovereign relationships. How we are able to better convey, better share and better demonstrate the benefits, not only to native people under the 8(a) program, the benefits to our country.
▶ 1:40:47Chair Murkowski: The fulfillment of a federal trust responsibility and the fulfillment of promises under ancsa. This is what the 8(a) program is all about. Thank you for such good testimony. We have got work that must continue. With that, we will continue to take questions for the record for a couple weeks. We will hold a hearing record open. Think you all for being here. -- thank you all for being here.