▶ 0:29:42Chair Hawley: Let me call to order this third hearing of the governmental affairs subcommittee on disaster management, which I am delighted to work on with my colleague ranking member king. I want to say a thank you to all of our witnesses, and those joining us online.
▶ 0:30:03Chair Hawley: The title of today's hearing is examining fraud and foreign influence in state and federal programs in today's hearing is going to examine two pillars that are truly fundamental to our republic and the confidence of the american people. That is the integrity of our public funds and the integrity of our political system. As early as the constitutional convention, alexander hamilton warned that foreign powers would try to exploit america's freedoms to sow divisions.
▶ 0:30:35Chair Hawley: Threats from foreign influence, he said should never be dismissed and today we are confronting a raft of allegations and reports that foreign influence and foreign money is making its way into the american political system and is financing activities that are not only destructive, detrimental and divisive, but also potentially illegal. At the same time more and more americans are concerned about the use of their tax dollars and where their tax money is being spent around the country.
▶ 0:31:06Chair Hawley: I've often thought watching and reading reports in recent months that if you are a hard-working american taxpayer, someone who wakes up every morning, goes to your job, plays by the rules, pays her taxes, you must feel like such an idiot.
▶ 0:31:20Chair Hawley: You must feel so taken advantage of, because here we have credible reports and we are going to hear more today of billions of dollars of taxpayer money, your tax funds being taken and spent on illicit activities, on overseas activities, other illegal and criminal activities.
▶ 0:31:42Chair Hawley: It is outrageous and it is time we got accountability for how american tax dollars are being spent, and how the integrity of our political system is being protected. You will hear testimony that tens of billions of dollars intended to serve the public had been lost to fraud in the state of minnesota alone. Organized criminal syndicates stole covid disaster money to the tune of billions of dollars and since then they have defrauded every single federally funded program in the state of minnesota.
▶ 0:32:15Chair Hawley: Every single federally funded program in the state of minnesota. Programs intended for children, the elderly, the poor, the sick, the most vulnerable americans. We will hear testimony that $9 billion has been defrauded from medicaid alone. $9 billion vanishing into luxury cars, overseas vacations, millions going to fund foreign adversaries.
▶ 0:32:43Chair Hawley: In the last two years alone, nearly 700 million dollars in cold hard cash was stuffed into suitcases and flown out of minneapolis. $700 million. That is 14,000 pounds of $100 bills. In suitcases, flown out of our country. We will hear testimony about how taxpayers across the country are losing north of $1 trillion per year.
▶ 0:33:13Chair Hawley: That is the entire pentagon budget. This is not isolated crooks gaming the system. This is transnational syndicates siphoning money out of america. 70% of that loot flows overseas, funding cartels, adversaries, china, iran, russia.
▶ 0:33:37Chair Hawley: We elderly, the sick, money for them is instead funding organized crime, arming our enemies and subsidizing the trafficking of children in the threats don't end there. We've seen recent anti-ice progress escalate to outright -- recent anti-ice protests escalate to outright lawlessness. It is manufactured chaos and who is behind it? Dark money networks and foreign actors, some of whom have ties to the chinese communist party.
▶ 0:34:07Chair Hawley: We will get testimony that these activities are funded and coordinated by a dense network of nonprofits and foreign link actors who use layer upon layer of pass-through entities to hide the money trail. Classic dark money laundering, to take foreign money and influence and dump it into our political system.
▶ 0:34:31Chair Hawley: Preplanned tactics designed not to protest but destabilize, erode faith in our institutions and force political change through manufactured crises. At the end of the day, this hearing is a simple question. As our government equipped to save taxpayer dollars, protect the rule of law and defend our institutions from exploitation? Because right now it does not look like it and it is time we got some answers for the american people. With that I recognize senator kim.
▶ 0:34:59Ranking Member Kim: Good afternoon everyone. It is important that we stand up for the american people, that we stand against fraud. I want to thank the witnesses here today, for joining us to hear their perspectives. Fraud touches every single state, not just one. It touches every single community. Perpetrators include individuals from every background and its impact is felt by every american .
▶ 0:35:26Ranking Member Kim: So I hope we can all come together and say we need to be stewards of our taxpayer dollars and to be able to do this in a way where we can look them in the eye and say that we are running a government that is able to look out for their investments and be able to deliver for them.
▶ 0:35:44Ranking Member Kim: I understand that, but we have to make sure we are doing this in a way that does not single out any one group or people or broadly across -- classify them as fraudsters because that would be inaccurate as well, given how widespread this is. I condemn fraud at every level and I believe those who make a living scamming the american people must pay a price, and I take preventing fraud and prosecuting fraud very seriously.
▶ 0:36:13Ranking Member Kim: However, we cannot and should not use fraud as an excuse to go after political enemies, militarize american cities or real government power in a way that goes after the american people. As the use constitutional rights to stand against injustice. To make sure we are not delegitimizing freedom of expression and gathering. Just last month we saw another horrific unnecessary death of an american citizen.
▶ 0:36:42Ranking Member Kim: This is a moment where many are frightened and I hear that in my home state as well. We have a responsibility as we are doing our due diligence to make sure we are not throwing gasoline on the fire, that we are doing it in a way that can keep a level head and think through pragmatically what we can do to address these problems we face.
▶ 0:37:06Ranking Member Kim: They deserve serious executive and legislative action to address fraud and need to be bipartisan to get this done. This committee in this congress must address these important problems with an understanding that fraud happens all over our nation and has a wide range of issues. It happened in the private sector, the public sector, under both democratic and republican administrations and leadership. We should not be complacent to it.
▶ 0:37:36Ranking Member Kim: We have a responsibility to be good stewards of taxpayer dollars but this requires a comprehensive strategy. We must show the american people that we are using their hard earned dollars responsibly and not rewarding wrongdoers or looking the other way due to partisan or political convenience.
▶ 0:37:56Ranking Member Kim: We must also restore trust in our government at a time when it is that of all time low -- when it is at an all-time low, no matter who is at fault or regardless of their political background or if they sit in the oval office or in congress or in a governor's office. Actions that only invite more fraud within the programs that we have. I'm looking forward to hearing from our witnesses today and working on this matter together.
▶ 0:38:22Chair Hawley: Thank you very much. It is the practice of this subcommittee to swear in our witnesses before they testify so I will ask if you would, to stand and raise your right hand and answer this question. Do you swear that the testimony you are about to give will be the truth, the whole truth and nothing but the truth? All of the witnesses answered in the affirmative. We will now proceed to questions -- actually I'm jumping the gun. We will let you speak first.
▶ 0:38:55Chair Hawley: We will let the witnesses speak first. Let's go down the panel and start on the left. Let me introduce the honorable Mr. mark koran. Mark koran is a mono set -- minnesota state senator and member of the legislative audit commission. It is great to have you with us and I will turn it to you for your opening statement.
▶ 0:39:16Mr. Koran: Thank you Mr. chair, and the investigations you are doing to stop the large-scale systemic fraud happening in minnesota. -- as well as being on the legislative audit commission. The legislative audit commission is a bipartisan commission.
▶ 0:39:43Mr. Koran: The commission appoints a nonpartisan legislative auditor whose job it is to hold state agencies accountable. He reviews programs across state government, finds misuse of taxpayer dollars in statutory. Noncompliance and violations. I spent nine years overseeing that work and I can tell you plainly most of these audits are bad. One of the most common failures of state agencies is not verifying the grant recipients to the work they were paid to do.
▶ 0:40:08Mr. Koran: In january 2020 six, the auditor found something she said she has never seen in her 27 year career. Backdating after an audit has started. The fraud in minnesota is pervasive and systemic. Even when the legislature puts safeguards in place, they are often ignored and there are rarely consequences.
▶ 0:40:34Mr. Koran: I've seen this up close which is why as I look at the broader fraud crisis, I want to start by highlighting three things. First, the millions of dollars in fraud of minnesota is devastating to our social service programs and communities. Our children, disabled, elderly and legitimate providers who earn their livelihood providing these vital services. Governor tim walz and his administration have overseen the largest expansion and acceleration of fraud this country has ever seen.
▶ 0:41:04Mr. Koran: They have repeatedly ignored data lines and warnings from nonpartisan audits, they have retaliated against whistleblowers exposing fraud and actively attempted to block and disrupt antifraud efforts. Because of the failure of governor walz and minnesota democrats to address fraud, we welcome the federal government to step up and uncover and stop the fraud in minnesota.
▶ 0:41:29Mr. Koran: Governor walz in minnesota democrats -- is either the result of gross incompetence or complicity and I think it is both. It totals far more dollars than the media, governor walz or democrats -- it is not millions, it is not hundreds of millions, it is billions of dollars stolen. As for the perpetrators stealing the money, their actions are on american.
▶ 0:42:00Mr. Koran: While justice should not discriminate against a specific community, what are the criminal is from minnesota, philadelphia or somalia, make no mistake that fraudsters discriminate against one community, americans. This targeted discrimination to swindle funds from the united states has to stop but it is critical that fraud that it -- is investigated and prosecuted and businesses are -- and legitimate businesses are not punished for the actions of some.
▶ 0:42:31Mr. Koran: We also have to take measures to stop the fraud before it starts. Minnesota republicans have been exposing this rapid fraud for many years now -- rampant fraud for many years now, talking to whistleblowers and instituting new safeguards. Reducing error rates will help ensure programs are there for those who need it most. State agencies need stricter oversight.
▶ 0:42:55Mr. Koran: We passed a bipartisan legislation to create an anti-fraud office, the office of the inspector general, an independent nonpartisan office to identify and prosecute fraud. This effort was blocked by democrats in the house but remains our top priority as we go into this next session.
▶ 0:43:13Mr. Koran: Hindsight measures like the oig and federal oversight combined with foresight measures to drastically improve eligibility determination will help protect taxpayer dollars in get it to the programs that meet at the most, not in the hands of criminals who take advantage of our generosity. I appreciate the time and your careful attention to the fraud crisis in minnesota. It's only been because of a national spotlight that our leaders have begun to admit the fraud problem is as dire as it is.
▶ 0:43:42Mr. Koran: Minnesota is ground zero for the fraud epidemic, but we can become the blueprint for how to prevent fraud if the right actions are taken. I hope our leaders will work with the federal government to move forward from this dark stain on our state's history.
▶ 0:43:55Chair Hawley: Next up is Mr. haywood talcove. The floor is yours.
▶ 0:44:03Mr. Talcove: Chairman hawley, members of the subcommittee, thank you for the opportunity to testify today. I've spent my career working to protect taxpayers and our most vulnerable from organized criminal groups who exploit our country's generosity and kindness. I have worked with the secret service on investigations and felt the personal impact fraud has on loved ones, like my 84-year-old mother who lives in florida.
▶ 0:44:32Mr. Talcove: This country has built a social safety net grounded on a pledge. When americans face hardship through disaster, job loss or crisis, their government will respond with speed, fairness and dignity. In my remarks I will focus on the scale of the fraud crisis and key solutions we can implement to stop at. The united states government is right -- ripe for exploitation and the single largest funder of cybercrime in the world.
▶ 0:45:02Mr. Talcove: Fraud in government programs is significant. It materially undermines the health of the country and contributes meaningfully to the nation's $38 trillion national debt. These are not your constituents. These are criminals stealing real tax dollars, using fake companies and stolen identities. The scale of the problem is real. The gao places losses at over $500 billion a year.
▶ 0:45:34Mr. Talcove: Secretary bessent estimates losses of up to $600 billion per year. I put the number closer to $1 trillion annually, or $115 million every hour. Of which 70% is related to transnational criminals. Others have placed the number as high as $1.5 trillion.
▶ 0:45:59Mr. Talcove: Over the last decade, taxpayers have lost trillions of dollars to these organizations stealing from benefit programs. We now spend more on fraud than we do on servicing the national debt or the defense budget. Fraud is a national security issue, a fiscal crisis, a betrayal of the people these programs are meant to serve. And it impacts the trust your constituents have in the government and its leadership.
▶ 0:46:30Mr. Talcove: The problem is not new but it has been escalating. It started with hurricane katrina. Criminals learned that government was a soft target. It never runs out of money. You have a low chance of being caught. And pay and chase does not work. The pandemic took fraud to the next level.
▶ 0:46:53Mr. Talcove: Domestic and transnational criminal organizations steal and manufacture identities and companies, share data and best practices on the dark web, exploit complicated eligibility systems and move cash around borders to foreign adversaries. These actors are sophisticated, dangerous, and they operate in all 50 states. They weaponize our compassion against programs we consider too vital to question. They know officials will hesitate to scrutinize aid meant for people in desperate need.
▶ 0:47:25Mr. Talcove: They exploit our best instincts to commit their worst crimes. This is not a flaw in this system, it is a feature of how criminal enterprises operate. Programs that operate on the honor system invite exploitation by transnational criminal groups. This is the first time in my career that I am confident we can effectively counter threats to the most vulnerable while protecting hard earned tax dollars.
▶ 0:47:53Mr. Talcove: I want to commend the administration for establishing a new department of justice leadership position focused on fraud enforcement, and the united states secret service for its support work, especially in the snap program. Their involvement shows that when federal resources are applied, criminal neck words can be shut down -- criminal networks can be shut down. If we want to restore trust, we must change how we do business. These are my recommendations.
▶ 0:48:23Mr. Talcove: First, front-end identity verification like that used in the private sector. Second, enforce mandatory recertification and continuous validation for every current recipient of an entitlement. Third, independent third-party audits. Fourth, the use of federal law enforcement. These fixes are easy, the technology and the data exist and are used every day by commercial entities. Fraud prevention is -- does not -- is not benefit prevention.
▶ 0:48:55Mr. Talcove: Integrity is not the opposite of compassion. It is what makes compassion sustainable. Thank you and I look forward to your questions.
▶ 0:49:01Chair Hawley: Next up is Mr. shamus shaeamus bruner.
▶ 0:49:08Mr. Bruner: Thank you Mr. chairman, members of the committee. I want to build directly on the testimony we just heard regarding pervasive fraud in state administered programs. What we are seeing in minnesota is not isolated misconduct, it is systemic fraud enabled by weak oversight, fragmented authority and a benefits architecture that allows large sums of taxpayer assistance to be distributed with minimal
▶ 0:49:38Mr. Bruner: Verification and little consequence for use -- low consequence for abuse. The nonprofit and ngo systems operating around these benefit programs do not exist in isolation. They are part of a broader ecosystem -- and when challenged, organized disruption.
▶ 0:49:58Mr. Bruner: Put simply, these anti-ice disruptions are not isolated protest activity but part of a larger interconnected system involving migration, government benefits and political mobilization. At the front end of this system, nonprofit and ngo networks facilitate and incentivize mass migration by navigating access to government benefits and services for the migrants who we refer to as migrant inc.
▶ 0:50:25Mr. Bruner: The benefits themselves do not flow into these ngos, they function as a form of patronage, creating dependency of migrant populations and anchoring them to nonprofit intermediaries that manage information, access and ongoing engagement. That dependency is the leverage. It keeps populations embedded within an organizational ecosystem operating in environments of weak oversight and limited enforcement, conditions we have seen in minnesota.
▶ 0:50:56Mr. Bruner: These same nonprofit ecosystems transition into political mobilization, voter registration, ballot education, turnout operations and sustained civic engagement. While often presented as nonpartisan activity, and practice this functions as a durable political infrastructure maintaining communications networks and organizational capacity that persists across election cycles and reliably align with particular political outcomes.
▶ 0:51:26Mr. Bruner: Importantly, many of these large ngo networks operating across these stages rely on complex and opaque funding structures including donor advised funds, fiscal sponsorships and international financing streams, some of which trace back to foreign nationals and connected entities. These arrangements are designed to obscure the true source of funding while preserving centralized operational control.
▶ 0:51:52Mr. Bruner: When enforcement actions, fraud investigations or policy changes threaten the system whether through ice operations, benefit eligibility scrutiny or election integrity measures, those networks activate a third component. At this stage organized disruption, intimidation and civil unrest are deployed strategically to raise the political cost of enforcement and deter accountability.
▶ 0:52:20Mr. Bruner: The same organizational infrastructure that facilitates migration and political mobilization suddenly appears in coordinated street activity complete with preplanned tactics, logistics and legal support and messaging designed to overwhelm or paralyze lawful government action. These are not separate phenomenon.
▶ 0:52:40Mr. Bruner: They are interconnected stages of the same political operation sustained by dependency, protected by opaque city and in some cases amplified by foreign linked funding intersecting with domestic political activity. The same analytical tools that expose benefit fraud, following the money, mapping nonprofit relationships in tracing organizational control also reveal continuity between migraine inc., election inc., and riot inc.
▶ 0:53:12Mr. Bruner: Understanding that is essential if congress is serious about protecting taxpayers and preventing foreign length -- thank you and I look forward to your questions.
▶ 0:53:24Chair Hawley: Now to introduce our fourth witness.
▶ 0:53:27Ranking Member Kim: Thank you Mr. chairman. It is my pleasure to introduce our witness, dylan hedt ler-gaudette. I know you've been making your rounds on capitol hill and I would like to thank for your -- I would like to thank you for your commitment to government oversight and to safeguarding american taxpayer dollars. He and I share the desire to ensure that american democracy is transparent, accountable.
▶ 0:53:58Ranking Member Kim: I look forward to having a conversation with you.
▶ 0:54:00Mr. Hedtler-Gaudette: Chairman hawley, ranking member kim and members of the subcommittee, I appreciate the opportunity to testify before you on the important issue of fraud in the federal government. I am the acting vice president of policy and government affairs at the project on government oversight. We are a nonpartisan independent watchdog organization with 45 years of experience promoting accountability, transparency and effectiveness at the federal government.
▶ 0:54:31Mr. Hedtler-Gaudette: Fraud in government is a real and persistent problem. This is not unique to the united states, certainly not to any particular locality or community within the united states. Fraud persists pretty much everywhere. The only thing that mitigates fraud is the vigilance of watchdogs and oversight practitioners and the strength of transparency tools and accountability mechanisms.
▶ 0:55:02Mr. Hedtler-Gaudette: That said, it is incumbent upon all of us to do what we can to prevent fraud, especially when fraud is related to hard-earned taxpayer dollars and critical public services. This is true whether the fraud takes place in minnesota, or mississippi welfare programs which involve a world-famous hall of fame nfl quarterback. Whether it is perpetrated by large multinational defense corporations.
▶ 0:55:31Mr. Hedtler-Gaudette: The point is, fraud is a systemic problem and it requires systemic solutions. Please allow me to touch on a few of those solutions here though I will elaborate on them in more detail in my written testimony. First, key oversight practitioners and internal watchdogs, as well as essential sources of information must be strengthened, preserved and protected, and sufficiently resourced.
▶ 0:56:02Mr. Hedtler-Gaudette: Specifically, I'm talking about inspectors general, the government accountability office, the office of special counsel, and whistleblowers. We must also take a long hard look at the technology and architecture we currently use to monitor, track, analyze and assess spending. That architecture is currently broken, and in dire need of overhaul, reform and modernization.
▶ 0:56:32Mr. Hedtler-Gaudette: We are in the age of five g, quantum computing and generative ai. The federal government still largely operates in the analog world, at best in the windows 95 world. We must also remember that corruption, conflicts of interest and cronyism act as anabolic steroids to waste, fraud and abuse in the federal government.
▶ 0:56:59Mr. Hedtler-Gaudette: No successful effort can be taken without cracking down on corruption. We have seen over the past two administrations and for much longer how susceptible to abuse and corruption the presidential pardon power is, for example. We also must enact much stronger and more robust rules around conflict of interest and really crack down on pay to play lobbying activities that corrupt and corroded key federal decisions, including on spending of taxpayer dollars.
▶ 0:57:30Mr. Hedtler-Gaudette: Just as important as what we must do is what we must not do. We must not undertake foolhardy overpromising endeavors like the department of government o department of government efficiency.
▶ 0:57:48Mr. Hedtler-Gaudette: Up to this point,, up to this point, on the so-called wall of receipts, we've only seen about 215 billion dollars of savings, and that's only if you can trust it on its safe -- on its face, which you cannot. Analysis of the wall of receipts have found basic math medical mistakes, cherry picking data, and a whole host of other errors.
▶ 0:58:16Mr. Hedtler-Gaudette: That says nothing about the fact that the federal government spent more money in 2025 than in 2024. We have to hand it to doge on one hand, it did illustrate perfectly how not to go about rooting out waste, fraud and abuse in the federal government. The key take away here is that fraud is a persistent cancerous disease on the federal government. The only way to address it is to get at root causes.
▶ 0:58:44Mr. Hedtler-Gaudette: By focusing on sensationalistic anecdotes, we are doing the same thing as focusing on symptoms rather than attacking the root cause of the disease. I look forward to answering your questions and I thank you again for inviting me to testify.
▶ 0:58:56Chair Hawley: Thank you very much to each of the witnesses. Now we will turn to questions. We will alternate democrat and republican, seven minute questioning rounds. Let me start with you senator koran. I'm sure you are familiar with the recent anti-ice protests in minnesota. From your vantage point in the state, are the majority of these protests spontaneous, or more organized? What is your impression?
▶ 0:59:27Sen. Koran: They are highly organized and coordinated.
▶ 0:59:31Chair Hawley: What evidence, what data, what signs have you observed that would implicate -- imply coordination?
▶ 0:59:40Sen. Koran: We've seen a broad variety of coordinated efforts. Agitation groups on the ground, some national, some professional, in addition to local reports that say they have trained some 30,000 observers to get in the middle of the protests.
▶ 1:00:00Chair Hawley: How would you describe the tactics that are used during these protests? Peaceful, aggressive? Inciting violence, trying to draw a reaction?
▶ 1:00:13Sen. Koran: What we have seen is a whole host of doxxing, we've seen instances of violence against federal agents. In two cases, we've had agents that have had -- one had their finger bitten off and they've been pelted with frozen bottles and stones. In addition to directly interfering with legal law enforcement.
▶ 1:00:38Chair Hawley: Have you seen any evidence that state officials are cooperating or coordinating with these efforts in any manner?
▶ 1:00:46Sen. Koran: Yes, there are a variety of state officials, elected officials that represent the minneapolis area that have gotten involved. Some in the chats. We've got one representative out there making sure to help train and coordinate efforts.
▶ 1:01:11Chair Hawley: Mr. bruner, senator koran has seen efforts to disrupt sites, including look out and signal chats. Your organization specializes in following nonprofit funding. Based on your research, what organizations have been active on the ground in minnesota?
▶ 1:01:35Mr. Bruner: We have tracked over $60 million according to the latest 990 disclosures, to approximately 14 groups, some of them national and others on the ground, groups like the aclu providing legal defense as well as facilitating training for some of the tactics that senator koran just described.
▶ 1:01:58Mr. Bruner: A group named democracy forward, take action minnesota has gotten over $10 million from these large ngo networks, including the neville roy single network, the indivisible national lawyers guild, the council on american islamic relations minnesota, minnesota 350, voices for racial justice. Over $60 million according to the latest disclosures.
▶ 1:02:25Chair Hawley: $60 million, 14 different groups. That sounds like a broad ecosystem. Where is this money coming from?
▶ 1:02:33Mr. Bruner: We've built a database that contains hundreds of thousands of roads from grants, from networks like the soros network, the neville roy singerman network, tides, the ford foundation, the rockefeller network. Massive ngos that have billions of dollars to spend on all kinds of protest or riot activity.
▶ 1:02:59Chair Hawley: Give us a sense of how this money flows to the ground level. How does it get from these donors to ground level and start funding protests and other violent activity?
▶ 1:03:12Mr. Bruner: It comes in the form of a six-figure check. Whether it is the open society or the tides groups, they will fund directly, some of these on the ground organizations. We have seen this happen time and again.
▶ 1:03:27Chair Hawley: So I think we have a chart. The money gets moved around -- arabella advisors, the tides groups. These are left-wing dark money groups. Look at the number of different entities on this one chart. All of this money moving through these different groups, many of them, non-disclosed to donors so we don't know exactly where the donors come from. Often times the entity that gets the money does not have to report where from.
▶ 1:03:59Chair Hawley: It is washed through multiple times and your research has found multiple different left-wing groups that are funding these protests on the ground in minnesota.
▶ 1:04:06Mr. Bruner: That is absolutely fair, and the ford money is probably the most concerning.
▶ 1:04:13Chair Hawley: Talk about that, the foreign money. There was a new york post article not long ago, talking about neville sing him, who I think is based in china. Tell me what your research has uncovered about this foreign money making its way to american protests that often harm our law enforcement officers.
▶ 1:04:34Mr. Bruner: Neville roy singham made nearly $1 billion, roughly a decade ago, selling his tech company. One of the funds that purchased the company had a chinese sovereign wealth money in it. Once he sold the company, he uses that money to fund a variety of protest, riot, antisemitic protests.
▶ 1:05:06Mr. Bruner: He funded the l.a. Riots earlier this year. He lives in china, a pro-ccp guy. He's also got close ties to the communists in cuba. He finance his trips for american groups to cuba to receive marxist revolutionary training. They come back here and operate on the ground. One of the groups in salt lake city went down to cuba and got one of these trips.
▶ 1:05:37Mr. Bruner: They are also very anti-ice.
▶ 1:05:39Chair Hawley: Let me make sure I understand. You are telling me that the protest -- the protest activity we have seen in los angeles and minnesota and other places that often turned violent, that some of this, may be much of it is funded by overseas money including by this individual with ties to the chinese communist party?
▶ 1:05:59Mr. Bruner: That's right. When you see all of these placards rollout, other groups like that, the democratic socialists of america, these are not organic spontaneous, they've got thousands of thousands of signs, all within the singham network.
▶ 1:06:20Chair Hawley: You mentioned another source of foreign money.
▶ 1:06:23Mr. Bruner: A swiss billionaire, the new york times reported this, one of the largest funders of the arabella network of funds. He pledged to give $200 million to electing people in the united states. Many people wonder how as a foreigner he is able to fund political operations. There has been some investigation but not enough.
▶ 1:06:45Chair Hawley: This is exactly the kind of thing that alexander hamilton warned about when he warned about the danger of foreign influence and foreign adversaries in our elections and we are seeing it play out in real time. Senator kim.
▶ 1:06:59Ranking Member Kim: Mr. bruner, I want to pick up here. How many people have been protesting in the streets in minnesota?
▶ 1:07:06Mr. Bruner: Depending on the day, I would prefer to senator koran but dozens, possibly hundreds.
▶ 1:07:14Ranking Member Kim: Dozens or possibly hundreds of people protesting in the streets of minnesota. Does that sound right to you, senator koran?
▶ 1:07:25Sen. Koran: I would respond thousands. And a variety of groups. Those at the national level, those that are based in minnesota as well as all of those who have been encouraged by our leadership.
▶ 1:07:37Ranking Member Kim: Of those thousands, how many do you believe are just doing this on their own or do you really think that the majority if not all are coordinated in the way Mr. bruner was talking about?
▶ 1:07:50Sen. Koran: There are three tiers. Those that are national and global, those that have ties based in minnesota, and then those that are homegrown, just residence who have been encouraged -- they trained 30,000 minnesota residents to engage and impede in federal law enforcement.
▶ 1:08:12Ranking Member Kim: I just want to say that I strongly disagree with how you have been categorizing this and talking about this. It is not just people in minnesota. People all over this country are frustrated and concerned and upset, they are scared and they are worried about things because they just saw two american citizens get killed in the street by federal agents.
▶ 1:08:36Ranking Member Kim: I just had a town hall in new jersey this weekend and the idea that people would be saying that this type of anger and this type of outrage whether in new jersey or minnesota is being predominately coordinated in this type of way, it is delegitimizing the anger and the fear that people are facing right now.
▶ 1:09:01Ranking Member Kim: The way it is described, the majority of the protesters, talking about this in that kind of way, I think is very dangerous right now and I hope that we can still recognize that there are a lot of people, a lot of people that are furious right now and worried and I wanted to push back on what I've been hearing.
▶ 1:09:26Ranking Member Kim: To go back to the topic of this hearing and the broader vein on examining fraud, I want to start here. Mr. hedtler-gaudette, you talked about this, in terms of -- this is not episodic. This is not unique in terms of fraud happening in one state. This is something I think we can all say with confidence has happened in every single state.
▶ 1:09:53Mr. Hedtler-Gaudette: Yes.
▶ 1:09:55Ranking Member Kim: Mr. talcove, is that similar in your mindset?
▶ 1:09:59Mr. Talcove: Yes.
▶ 1:10:00Ranking Member Kim: You talked about it as a persistent vulnerability and not episodic. I want to go through some of the tools that we have to try and address this. Let's start with the government accountability office. As far as I can tell, it saved $1.45 trillion since 2002. Mr. talcove, does that sound about right? Has it saved the taxpayers a lot of money in that way?
▶ 1:10:31Mr. Talcove: They have definitely saved some money but not to offset the fraud that has taken place.
▶ 1:10:39Ranking Member Kim: Certainly not. This is just one tool we have. Do you see importance in supporting the gao?
▶ 1:10:46Mr. Talcove: I think the gao is very important as part of the process. Part of the challenge has been there recommendations tend not to be followed. There was an article in the wall street journal talking about 165 recommendations were made, 65 were critical, zero recommendations for the past 10 years have been followed up on.
▶ 1:11:11Ranking Member Kim: So the concern you have is that recommendations are not being followed up. Do you have reason to believe that gao is working in a partisan way?
▶ 1:11:20Mr. Talcove: No.
▶ 1:11:22Ranking Member Kim: I would follow up on this in part because our current omb director said he doesn't think the gao should exist. Do you agree with that assessment?
▶ 1:11:33Mr. Talcove: Not my bailiwick.
▶ 1:11:37Ranking Member Kim: Republicans in the house of representatives proposed cutting gao by 50% last year. Do you think a 50% cut to gao would hurt their ability in terms of being able to shine a light on fraud in our government?
▶ 1:11:51Mr. Talcove: The most important thing that can happen right now if we are serious about saving $1 trillion annually is to allow the states to start sharing data, and to go through the full recommendations.
▶ 1:12:08Ranking Member Kim: I agree with a lot of your recommendations. I'm trying to get a sense of our different tools. Mr. hedtler-gaudette, I wanted to ask you the same questions. Do you agree or disagree with russ vought's idea that we get rid of the gao?
▶ 1:12:27Mr. Hedtler-Gaudette: I emphatically disagree.
▶ 1:12:30Ranking Member Kim: Do you have a problem with republicans in the house of representatives trying to cut gao by 50%?
▶ 1:12:36Mr. Hedtler-Gaudette: I have a problem with anyone trying to limit gao.
▶ 1:12:40Ranking Member Kim: I hope that we can in a bipartisan way think through how we can use these tools, support them going forward in our efforts, if we are seriously and earnestly trying to address fraud. Also when it comes to inspector general's. That is something we have seen a lot of challenge on, as we saw immediately president trump come in and get rid of 17 inspectors general. Mr.
▶ 1:13:05Ranking Member Kim: Hedtler-gaudette, does that concern you in terms of how he has dismissed inspectors general?
▶ 1:13:13Mr. Hedtler-Gaudette: It is deeply concerning. It is also unlawful in many cases. It's got two dimensions of being problematic.
▶ 1:13:24Ranking Member Kim: Mr. talcove, I agree with you, in terms of the data and the efforts we could do on that front. What actions could congress take to fix the gaps in data transparency and make it easier to follow where the dollars are going?
▶ 1:13:41Mr. Talcove: The first thing I would recommend if I was in your seat is to allow the master file to be shared to the different federal agencies. That has been an outstanding issue for 10 years and that's why you see so many quote, deceased recipients in the benefit program. The other part I would strongly recommend is third-party audits.
▶ 1:14:09Mr. Talcove: Too many times, you see in government, the audits are being conducted by the individuals that have responsibilities for the program. Like lexis, we have a third-party auditor that checks our books. There need to be third-party auditors going in and checking. If you do those things, you can take the fraud down from 20% in government down to 3%. .
▶ 1:14:36Mr. Talcove: >> thank you, chairman, I yield back.
▶ 1:14:42Chair Hawley: Senator scott?
▶ 1:14:45Sen. Scott: Thank you. People are fed up with government in a lot of ways and it's all because of fraud. They pay their taxes and they get sick and tired with they read about money being wasted. Something I had to fight as go of florida and something I've fought up here. Just in minnesota with the recent revelations, the administration estimates at least $19 billion in fraud and it's probably more than that.
▶ 1:15:15Sen. Scott: So I think everybody who pays their taxes should be furious about this. We're supposed to be the stewards of taxpayer dollars. We're seeing programs and their taxpayer dollars, I agree with you. We auto to do audience itself around public companies. We had outside groups that did that and gave us recommendations how to improve.
▶ 1:15:42Sen. Scott: It's also a betrayal for the families who were attended to help who might be left without a safety net because of these fraudsters. The federal government has been so easy to steal money from. I'm introducing my nap data oversight legislation this week. It's going to require states' receiving snap funding providing recipients data to the usda when requested. Pretty simple. This bill is just a start.
▶ 1:16:14Sen. Scott: We need to figure out exactly how the fraud occurred, where every tax dollar is going and why and we have to hold people accountable. When I became governor of florida in january of 2011, people were telling me they knew there was fraud and they weren't going after people that they knew were committing fraud.
▶ 1:16:39Sen. Scott: How are you being a fiduciary to the taxpayer if you know and you're not holding them accountable? Senator, as a member of the minnesota senate, you have experience with fraud prevention and detection in programs like unemployment insurance, medicaid, disaster relief and others. It's clear fraud has become a systemic problem for the walz administration.
▶ 1:17:04Sen. Scott: I was governor of florida and it's hard toial that as a governor of the state he had no idea he was handing out money to such plate ant scammers and that billions of money could be stolen knot just one, over and over with what looks hike zero accountability. Since the fraud has been unveiled, what has the governor and the minnesota government done to halt the fraudulent payment? >> thank you, the governor has done very little.
▶ 1:17:35Sen. Scott: I think he's promoted and created a fraud czar and he's done nothing since that started. He has put a hold on those 14 -- just 14 of the suspected programs which receive medicaid funding and some of those medicaid funding programs like housing support programs and autism were based on the federal investigators in minnesota have deemed that 90% of that was entirely fraud.
▶ 1:18:05Sen. Scott: Just those two programs, about $800 million of taxpayer dollars that have been stolen. So they've taken a little action. Unfortunately they're so horror whether I ineffective that even the good providers are caught up in there. And they're willing to open their kimono and be audited. They're not even able to due that we all agree, it touches the pocketbook but it's stealing from the most needy in the state and in the country.
▶ 1:18:34Sen. Scott: We're only talking about the stuff that rises to the level that can get criminally prosecuted. Not that which is wasted by swimming through the lane of -- I think the advice is good that you've heard so far but in minnesota between none three elements of eligibility when you're looking for applying for
▶ 1:19:07Sen. Scott: Bismarck is proven based on a self-adistation.
▶ 1:19:14Sen. Scott: Has governor walz or the attorney, any company, any person been prosecuted?
▶ 1:19:27Mr. Koran: Knot very few. Almost everything you see in the headlines today is because the federal government came in under the feed our future program. Which has only had about $330 million charged and prosecuted. I think almost 100 charged and some 60 have been convicted.
▶ 1:19:47Mr. Koran: That is just the beginning of the discovery and all of those other medicaid programs in their financial discovery they've discovered all of the other fraud and tentacles because it's coming from the same providers.
▶ 1:20:00Sen. Scott: In your state are the taxpayers ok with fraud?
▶ 1:20:07Mr. Koran: Governor walz is no longer running for re-election. They'reup set but justlerring about it. When governor walz pranced on the stable in the presidential election is when our local media was forced to cover the actions that had taken place under his administration.
▶ 1:20:26Sen. Scott: No fraud is a victimless crime. It's minnesota taxpayers paying their local and state taxes who suffer from fraudulent activity. How have legitimate providers and families seen delayed services and title rules that make it harder for honest people to get help because of this fraud?
▶ 1:20:50Mr. Koran: We've heard stories all over the state of good providers and a rent autism provider was highlighted this week. They've delayed payments for 90 day and the only plan to roll it out in a limited environment. Many of the critical services and providers that actually do the work may go under and leave a huge portion of our population unserved.
▶ 1:21:17Sen. Scott: Mr. talcove. A simple search in these businesses in minnesota reveal they are not real businesses. Can you give us an example that are common that criminals abuse across insurance, s.b.a. Loans, snap and medicaid and other major federal programs?
▶ 1:21:41Mr. Talcove: This happen unless all 50 states, senator and the it starts with the secretary of state. You can go into any of your state portals, enter in any name you want for a business and so long as it doesn't interfere with a business already, it's set up. And they deliver fake services yet their stealing real taxpayer dollars.
▶ 1:22:10Sen. Scott: Thank you. Thank thanthank you, chairman.
▶ 1:22:17Chair Hawley: Thank you, Sen. scott. I heard that center johnson has allowed senator moreno. That's video. You're recognized.
▶ 1:22:30Sen. Moreno: Thank you. At the beginning of the session I came over and introduced myself and shook your hand. If I had stolen $400,000 out of your pocket would you hunt me do you like a wild animal?
▶ 1:22:47Mr. Talcove: I think my wife would, yeah. Every single person who pays income tacks in this country is getting robbed $4,000 and we sit here in washington, D.C. and we say all these technical conversations and we say well, it's not just minnesota, this happens everywhere as if that's ok. In the business world they call that independents institutional rot, when you can't even realize how bad your actions are because it's not your money.
▶ 1:23:18Mr. Talcove: If it were our money, you wouldn't even accept $4,000. We're acceptling by estimates half a trillion dollars every year. And I'm picking on you, Mr. talcove, because you said what the american people want is the kindness and generosity of the nation. But they got stupidity and corruption, isn't that more accurate?
▶ 1:23:41Mr. Talcove: They are not getting what they paid for.
▶ 1:23:46Sen. Moreno: Obviously we're talking about your state here. Just a simple outdoorer's point of view. The federal governor gave minnesota a lot of money, gives every state a lot of money. So I would say this to my colleague from new jersey. Why would we not have the state be on the hook for the money lost in fraud.
▶ 1:24:11Sen. Moreno: If I handed you money and said hey, spend this to do x and you wasted'9", allowed people to steal'9". Why would we not charge the state that money? Look, we gave you the money. You lost $123 billion. Why not give it back to the federal government? >> just in the feedling or future, that was $500 million. We were charged 300 million.
▶ 1:24:43Sen. Moreno: But we haven't been able to prove it.
▶ 1:24:47Sen. Moreno: I get all that. Why wouldn't we just tell minnesota you did not use the money the way we asked you to.
▶ 1:24:59Mr. Koran: That's our greatest concern. One in every three dollars spent --
▶ 1:25:05Sen. Moreno: Maybe if the citizens of minnesota felt they could not electing idiot, thanks would change. Mr. bruner, I have a bill called the stop act. It says if nick is on any kind of welfare social program, whatever m effects nu of liberal wish list programs that people are on you cannot spend a single cent outside the united states.
▶ 1:25:35Sen. Moreno: Does that seem logical and common sense?
▶ 1:25:39Mr. Bruner: Very common sense.
▶ 1:25:42Sen. Moreno: What kind of instrument would have to hit your head in order to knot think that?
▶ 1:25:49From Mr. Bruner: You'd have to be benefiting pretty good from the fraud.
▶ 1:25:56Sen. Moreno: Why would you have that person send money outside the country? Makes no sense, right?
▶ 1:26:07Mr. Bruner: No, and it's billions of dollars.
▶ 1:26:10Sen. Moreno: You said something that I think is something I would ask all my colleagues to reflect on. Because we accept these kinds of statements as normal. Obviously you don't like the doge effort. That was crystal clear. But you said it only saved $215 billion. Do you have $215 billion?
▶ 1:26:36Mr. Hedtler-Gaudette: No.
▶ 1:26:37Sen. Moreno: That's a lot of money. If all of a sudden you woke up tomorrow morning and someone gave you $2515 billion, you'd have a pretty good day. Let's say it's wrong. May miscounted. Let's say it's 10x wrong. $21 billion. I'd take $21 billion. Let's say they're 100 finals wrong, that's still $2 billion. Mr.
▶ 1:27:06Sen. Moreno: Chairman, I think what we have to reads as elected officials where maybe we spend too much time here and not enough time actually talking to normal americans. People who pay taxes don't expect us to put up with that kind of fraud, waste and abuse. This is the second I think or third hearing we've had from the greater committee around waste, fraud and abuse. We had the g.a.o. Here and the held of the g.a.o.
▶ 1:27:34Sen. Moreno: Basically said this has been going on so long we've wasted 3 to $4 trillion. None of us the comprehend that. We don't even know what a trillion is. But the way we have almost disdain for the taxpayer, where we normalize it. We say things like let's knot pick on minnesota. Everybody does fraud.
▶ 1:27:59Sen. Moreno: If we don't actually deliver substantive changes to the american people where very soon republicans and democrats get together and say we're going to dual structure dual stru structurally fix this problem, that's going to be a problem. Mr. talcove, if I walked over to you and took $4 thought out of your pocket.
▶ 1:28:25Sen. Moreno: You would leave this hearing and chase me down like a wild animal. Yet for us, we're like, well, it's only $4,000. Would you ever imagine saying something like this that?
▶ 1:28:39Mr. Talcove: No, sir.
▶ 1:28:41Sen. Moreno: I hope what comes out of this is concrete steps that say we will not put up with one cent of waste, fraud and abuse in our programs. The federal government doesn't administer these programs, the states do. Senator scott when he was governor of florida, they did a great job.
▶ 1:29:04Sen. Moreno: Give ha them motivation and absolutely hold the state ripping us off, hold them accountable and have their voters understand that missouri, wisconsin, ohio. I hope new jersey doesn't want to pay for minnesota's crap. That's what our voters tell me every single day. Mr. chairman, thank you for having this hearing.
▶ 1:29:26Chair Hawley: Sen. johnson?
▶ 1:29:28Sen. Johnson: Let's me try and tie together what I think is some pretty extraordinary testimony here to get to what is going on here. The political aspect of the fraud, of making people dependent on government to keep one political party in power. So I was shocked by a recent revelation, I'd never known this before, the satellites federal reserve actually tracks the assets of nongovernmental organizations, n.g.o.'s.
▶ 1:29:57Sen. Johnson: $14.1 trillion is the latest estimate. $14.1 trillion. Now, let me -- because we don't have enough time to go through this whole thing but during the open borders of the biden administration, we heard repeated by that there were n.g.o.'s operating in the dorian gap facilitating and welcoming people that they then funneled up into america. Millions of people coming into this country illegally.
▶ 1:30:27Sen. Johnson: Generally into, and oftentimes being funneled into blue states, sanctuary cities, sanctuary states. Mr. bruner, what you're talking about is these groups being funded by groups like sorrows and arabella to what? To stabilize our political situation? To turn america into a one-party state?
▶ 1:30:56Sen. Johnson: Tell me what your testimony is all about here.
▶ 1:31:02Mr. Bruner: Thank you, senator, that's exactly right. It's to create political benefit -- so in the case of california, there are estimates that range up to 13 representatives, just through apportionment, not even taking into consideration voter fraud and illegal migrant who make it on to the voter rolls, which we know happens.
▶ 1:31:25Mr. Bruner: Just through apportionment, you're talking about 13 members in the house who shouldn't be there if not for all these millions of migrant under biden. That's one, that's a political benefit.
▶ 1:31:39Sen. Johnson: The ranking member said people were furious about what we're doing in minneapolis. What they're not furious about under the biden administration or clinton administration with they actually enforce our laws and get cooperation from state and local governments. Trump is behind deportations and removal and returns from clinton, obama and biden. But all of a sudden now the public is furious. Why?
▶ 1:32:07Sen. Johnson: Is it because n.g.o.'s are funding the 30,000 trained observers, I call them activists who are -- some of them are actually shooting at ice officers. They're ramming their vehicles into their vehicles. They slow rocks at them. One of them showed up with a semiautomatic pistol with multiple clips of ammunition, correct?
▶ 1:32:33Sen. Johnson: So isles officers obviously are on hair trigger alert and these government officials -- is it correct, senator, that your lieutenant governor was managing the signal chat site, following enforcement actions in deploying their observers to the scene? >> we haven't been able to far varyify that baugh she's made those statement as our governor has, go out and block them.
▶ 1:33:03Sen. Johnson: One representative has been in those chats and actively promoting them.
▶ 1:33:09Sen. Johnson: So those groups, officials, train these observers and then encorm them to put themselves into harm's away, right? To obstruct law enforcement. Who's really responsible for the fat that they got hurt? I would never encourage my supporters to go obstruct justice, put yourself in harm's way. I won't go there but we need to understand what's what's happening in this country. This didn't just happen.
▶ 1:33:40Sen. Johnson: These protesters just department spring up. Some of them, maybe, listening to appeals of the governor saying go record this be be but these people are trained, correct, Mr. bruner?
▶ 1:33:54Mr. Bruner: Yes, senator.
▶ 1:33:56Sen. Johnson: Trained and encouraged to do this. Mr. talcove you said you calculated the fraud at about $1 trillion a year. What metric do you use? I want to go to the source. That's probably a low estimate as well.
▶ 1:34:13Mr. Talcove: We have unique access because of our position. It's looking at networks, foreign I.p.'s infrastructure and here's the worst part, especially in government, seeing the same identity used in all 50 states and not being able to do anything about it.
▶ 1:34:32Sen. Johnson: I want, if you are willing to, provide notes that provide those sources. Let's go back to what happened with somalians in minnesota. Were there n.g.o.'s supporting that effort as well?
▶ 1:34:55Sen. Johnson: Is this the same thing just on a much smaller clear and are we just seeing that maturity of it. I'm sure we got to that level of fraud in california but knot necessarily with the new immigrant. Who facilitated the somalians in minnesota?
▶ 1:35:17Sen. Johnson: >> minnesota has been one of the leaders, not a sanctuary state legally but large cities are sanctuary cities. You've talked about kind of the motives. Talking about the violent protesters and the organization and coordination but each and every one of the dollars when we talk about the fraud on the other side, the first part of this conversation are feeding that network for pure political gain and eternal power.
▶ 1:35:46Sen. Johnson: Mr. talcove you mentioned that the secretaries of state allow these people to register their businesses. Somebody has that I knowed these people to do this, right? I guess a bunch of people could have the same idea but my guess is somewhere these people are trained this is how to commit fraud in all these programs. Would you dispute that?
▶ 1:36:16Mr. Talcove: We look at fraud through a program called e.b.t., unemployment insurance and the criminals look at it nationally, not statewide and by setting it up the way we have it set up, we allow them to share their "sauce" and whether it's unemployment insurance fraud, e.b.t. Fraud, health care fraud, they share that across the country and they work at scale.
▶ 1:36:42Mr. Talcove: That's why federal law enforcement needs to be engaged in these investigations because state and local agencies can't handle them. They eventually lead back to franz national criminals in countries such as russia, chair umpire, etc.
▶ 1:36:58Sen. Johnson: I love the g.a.o. Too, they can do some great work but they're so incredibly ineffective. They're not looking at the true perpetrators of this fraud. It is transnational organizations. The nongovernmental organizations that we funnel this money through and don't track it. Where did they get $14.1 trillion worth of assets?
▶ 1:37:28Sen. Johnson: Something we funnel through them through some worthy cause that they just put in their bank account? We need to open our eyes but I think it's the shadow groups the chairman was talking about here. They need to be fully investigated and we need to understand exactly what's happening. This is far more than a couple of officers in minnesota. This is endemic.
▶ 1:37:55Sen. Johnson: Perfect assistant and costing-mile-an-hour taxpayers to spend at least a trillion. Thank you, Mr. chairman.
▶ 1:38:03Chair Hawley: Thank you, Sen. johnson. I want to get a handled of just the scale of the fraud in minnesota. Let's get a handle on the scale of the fraud. You are a member -- I want to get this right, of the office of the legislative auditory.
▶ 1:38:24Mr. Koran: The legislative audit commission.
▶ 1:38:28Chair Hawley: Got it, you oversee the office. Give me your best estimate how many agencies have rampant fraud?
▶ 1:38:45Mr. Koran: All of them to some extent. 10 of our largest primary agencies. Many of the nonprofits receive grants and funding from all 10 agencies.
▶ 1:38:57Chair Hawley: In you had to put a number on it based on what you've seen, what do you think the total losses are in terms of fraud to minnesotans?
▶ 1:39:09Mr. Koran: I think we've determined that half of all -- it would be about $9 billion and the reason I believe that's true, in each audit we measure a level and samples of what they've done.
▶ 1:39:27Mr. Koran: Now 20% to 0% of the -- 80% to each one of them have been unable to prover the familiars are going to where their indicated.
▶ 1:39:41Chair Hawley: How much that is gone overseas?
▶ 1:39:46Mr. Koran: I ae.r.a.d in 2017. The whistle blowers that they believe $100 million was fraudulent. We had a whistleblower come forward, actually publicly and at that time we discovered the huala process of the movement of cash through our airport in minneapolis-st. Paul. 100 million dollars went out in cash through the minneapolis-st.
▶ 1:40:16Mr. Koran: Paul airport.
▶ 1:40:16Chair Hawley: Tell us how that worked.
▶ 1:40:20Mr. Koran: In suitcases. Back then it was a million at a crack. I learned the year before it was about $74 million. Secretary bessent just -- I've tried for two and a half years to get that number because I wanted to get a view of mom dollars were sent out from the community senting them. The last two years it was about a 27% increase over this period from 2017.
▶ 1:40:51Mr. Koran: That's 1.8 billion in crash and I don't think the average citizen who works for their money understands how complicated it is to ship or october $6 million to glover 7 million of crash every week of the year and our federal government certainly must have been aware of it and has done nothing. All but about $130 million oral nateed out of minnesota.
▶ 1:41:19Chair Hawley: What every american absolutely understands is their tax money taken in suitcases heaven knows where? The fact that is the systemic in minnesota and probably in a lot of other places. I mean, millions of dollars in suitcases out of an airport and that's just one means of shipping this money around. It's absolutely unbelievable. Mr.
▶ 1:41:45Chair Hawley: Talcove, you testified that about a trillion dollars you think is lost in fraud every year. Where is this money going? We know some of it from minnesota is going overseas, somalia. N.g.o. The fronts. California gave away millions of dollars to a pro-hamas n.g.o. Where's this money going to? >> I appreciate that question.
▶ 1:42:15Chair Hawley: It goes to terrorism, child trafficking, drugs, terrorism and then it's used to purchase luxury items. Cars, purses, homes. That's all funded by people like me that pay taxes.
▶ 1:42:30Chair Hawley: So you're telling me that the electrician who goes to work every day and clocks in and works his bu butt off and tries to earn just enough to make his rent, maybe have a kid or two, put food on the table. His tax money is used to buy other people luxury items and is going to fund child trafficking and terrorism?
▶ 1:43:00Chair Hawley: >> yes, sir. $150 million an hour.
▶ 1:43:02Chair Hawley: How are they getting their hands on it? What are we talking about here? Trans, national criminal networks? >> they take advantage of antiquated government systems and processes. They're go into programs that they know elected and appointed officials won't touch and they can steal at scale and happened was during the pandemic between the p.p.p.
▶ 1:43:29Chair Hawley: Loans and 9 unemployment insurance, they learned a really valuable lesson learned a really valuable les lesson. Government never runs out of money and the probability of getting caught is virtually zero. I have it at .1%.
▶ 1:43:45Chair Hawley: So come back to the recommendations that you mentioned in your opening statement. What do we need to do to put a stop to this hemorrhaging of people's hard-earned money going overseas to finance child traffic and luxury yachts?
▶ 1:44:09Mr. Talcove: Front and identity varyification. You just don't get to say I am who I say I am. Second, recertification of all the recipients. There is so much fraud right now of all recipients across the country. We need to get a baseline.
▶ 1:44:30Mr. Talcove: Third is this notion of a third-party independent audit and finally, involving federal law enforcement like the secret service to investment. Most of these benefits are not real. They're fake. They are someone's stolen identity that is getting used in all 50 states.
▶ 1:44:50Chair Hawley: Incredible. Senator kim?
▶ 1:44:54Ranking Member Kim: Thank you, chairman. What you just laid out there, Mr. talcove. It should piss off every single american and this is absolutely atrocious and it just -- I'm just furious, honestly, chairman and I think that there is something here, as we've tried in other hearings too where we can work in a bipartisan way to be able to address this. I'm not trying to defend any single state.
▶ 1:45:22Ranking Member Kim: We can't look at it just through that lens. Mr. talcove, you were saying the criminals are looking at this nationally. Then we need to make sure we're looking at this nationally too because it's not something that every single state is going to be able to handle on their own, is that right, Mr. talcove?
▶ 1:45:43Mr. Talcove: You don't see the connections when you're looking at it within a state. You have to look at it nationally to find the connections.
▶ 1:45:51Ranking Member Kim: So I think just our best opportunity going forward to try to deliver for the american medium is this is outrageous and should not continue on. Not just the scale of the money but what it's being used for and going towards and I say that as someone who used to work counterterrorism at the pentagon before.
▶ 1:46:14Ranking Member Kim: I can't stand this but we need to make sure we're focusing in on the criminals and thinking through what you were saying about federal law enforcement and other efforts. Mr. chairman, again, I think there's an opportunity here for us to come up with a expensive set, a menu of actions we can take and think through what is it that we can work with this administration and congress on, what is it that we can empower the state to be able to step up and handle on that front and
▶ 1:46:47Ranking Member Kim: Mr. hedtler-gaudette, I just wanted to follow up with you because we were talking through this, about just the challenges, fringes on the data side. I'd seen different reports about for instance, U.S.a. Spending.gov but it seems from my appearance, wholly inadequate right now in terms of rising to the level of detail.
▶ 1:47:11Ranking Member Kim: It's admirable we're trying to have that transparency but would you agree that this is something if we're very serious about this, taking the tools we have, investing in them to have a greater level of detail and fidelity to really be able to track. Does that make sense to you?
▶ 1:47:32Mr. Hedtler-Gaudette: Perfect sense. 20 years from the federal franz appearance issue act a piece of legislation co-led by senator colonel burn and barack obama that tried to bring the procession of federal funding into the 21st century.
▶ 1:47:53Mr. Hedtler-Gaudette: We have obviously have not kept up and we have a long ways to go to reflect 21st century technical capabilities when it comes to howe we track money and assess federal spending. But it's something we can do. It's not hard. The statute is there. We have the reform and fixes, we just need to do it.
▶ 1:48:14Ranking Member Kim: Mr. talcove was going through four different ideas here. Front end, identity identification, recertification. Third party enforcement. Is there anything else that you want to add, necessary this committee should be thinking about?
▶ 1:48:34Mr. Hedtler-Gaudette: All of the recommendations that Mr. talcove laid out seem reason to be. To build on the U.S.a. Spending issue, that is supposed to be the primary space that the american people can verify what is happening with their tax dollars. It's outdated and doesn't require enough information to make it as useful as it needs to be.
▶ 1:49:02Mr. Hedtler-Gaudette: An example, each program is required to suck mitt toward descriptions, supposed to tell you what that federal award is but right now there are no standards or guidelines about what has to be caned in that description so if you go on U.S.a. Spending and try to look up what a program is and what is being spent and you look in the award description field, you see a lot of gobbledygook that gives you no information.
▶ 1:49:32Mr. Hedtler-Gaudette: That could be fixed by saying you have to provide meaningful information when you're awarded these fund. There's a lot of low hanging fruit like that that would really help.
▶ 1:49:49Ranking Member Kim: Thank you for that. I want to end here to say we take all of this effort we're doing right now mindful of the fact that we live in a time of the greatest distrust of government in modern american history and there are a lot of reasons for that but I think a lot of what we heard today is a big part of that.
▶ 1:50:07Ranking Member Kim: The sense that we can't manage our money, we're seeing us being taken advantage of by others and, again, I hope we can just, in a unified away by able to say enough. We're tie tired of this and we need to have that end and work earnestly to be able to address it. What I worry, again, if orr sniping at each other and continuing to point attacks at each other, especially politically, the only people that benefit from that are the criminals.
▶ 1:50:37Ranking Member Kim: They're the ones that are getting away with this as we're wrestling and fighting each other whereas if we are seriously big targeted in such a direct and that lyricsway by actors then wee need to make sure we are unified in terms of being able to address that and being able to do this with a clear mind. Again, I think restoring trust is so important right now.
▶ 1:51:02Ranking Member Kim: We think about just hopple legitimate beneficiaries are being taken advantage of and how the taxpayer dollars are being diverted and how all of this is going to make it harder for us to push forward. Mr. chair, again, I'm grateful we have an opportunity to shine a light on this. I know we'll have some disagreements in terms of some of the priorities and words we're using but I'm ready to be able to engage.
▶ 1:51:32Ranking Member Kim: I think many people on the democratic side in the senate will be willing to engage in this in a legitimate discussion on how we take this on nationally in a systemic way. Hopefully we can find an opportunity to do that. I yield back.
▶ 1:51:50Chair Hawley: Senator johnson?
▶ 1:51:51Sen. Johnson: I want to go back to n.g.o.'s. They're not for profit, correct? >> that is correct.
▶ 1:52:00Sen. Johnson Johnson: How'd they're accumulate $14.1 trillion worth of assets? >> that's a good question.
▶ 1:52:11Sen. Bruner: We've tracked entities in the soros network and tide network --
▶ 1:52:20Sen. Johnson: It's $14 trillion. My subcommittee is trying to track that back. My assumption these were nonprofits, they get money from government and district to worthy beneficiaries. Somehow they're pocketing $14.1 trillion. So there's a project for both you researchers.
▶ 1:52:44Sen. Johnson: The reason we focus on minnesota is we lead need to learn what happened there so we think widen our aperture and say if they were able to do it in m.p., where else have they been able to do it? We have to learn from this obvious fraud and open up our aperture. You mentioned steal at scale.
▶ 1:53:13Sen. Johnson: Let me give you one legalized steal at scale that unfortunately one side of the aisle completely ignored. When we passed the enhanced subsidies for obamacare, the pandemic, the temporary one, right? We created a lot of zero premium policies. Prior to the pandemic there were about 10 million on the exchanges. Now all of a sudden there's about 24 million, supposed by?
▶ 1:53:37Sen. Johnson: We've known because they've looked at this and because of those zero premium policies, probably about 6,000 policies. This is obvious fraud, right? Probably about $30 billion a year so anybody who wanted to just go ahead and clean their hands of the enhanced policies, even though we were talking about this all the time. $30 billion a year.
▶ 1:54:05Sen. Johnson: I would call that fraud at scale. Happy to look the other way and facilitate that fraud. We can talk about by but the fact is -- by partisanship but we have one side of the aisle that has no problem with this. Governor walz had no problem with this. I saw that in march of 2019 right after he got woo into offers. Fully aware of this.
▶ 1:54:35Sen. Johnson: Why the g.a.o. Recommendations are not enacted but you described stealing at scale. How could you funnel $14 trillion into n.g.o.'s? >> go back to your medicaid example. 40% of those policies, absolutely no claims but that's just the tip of thitis berg.
▶ 1:54:59Sen. Johnson: Once you're in medicaid and you have a valid number, you start ma nichelating the bad providers and start getting equipment, cathers, cathers -- catheters, orthopedics, etc., that are never shipped and all of a sudden you are losing hundreds of billions of dollars. What happens in government is we don't get to the lowest demon denominator.
▶ 1:55:26Sen. Johnson: That's the primary contrary physician that gets inundated with thousands and thousands of fake patient seeking fake services and products.
▶ 1:55:34Sen. Johnson: Step aside for a minute, who's accumulating this? Who's behind literally how many tons of dollar bills in minnesota -- I heard $700 million but it's $1.4 billion of cash.
▶ 1:55:52Mr. Talcove: In my experience during this 15 years it all ends up tied back to transnational criminal organizations --
▶ 1:56:02Sen. Johnson: Are there names?
▶ 1:56:09Mr. Talcove: State sponsored groups, groups such as a.t.p.41. Well known organizations that operate and their soul purpose is to steal from american taxpayers, destabilize our democracy and use that money for other purposes.
▶ 1:56:23Sen. Johnson: Mr. brian, ink you could write a week on some of the foreign influences here. We need flow charts. Figure out what the $14.1 trillion came from. We have to break that down and say here are the programs it's going through and here's who's sucking it up. There's some fraud of people getting benefits they don't deserve, ok?
▶ 1:56:53Sen. Johnson: That's small-scale fraud. Fraud at scale that's funneling money into, I don't know, el sha bob? How do we get to the bottom of this?
▶ 1:57:16Mr. Bruner: In the cash flow in minnesota, it goes through this ancient banking system, huala. We found out how the money makes it way to terror groups. Think about how much 9/11 costs. Investigations shows about $450,000. Many of the hijackers were on benefits with that. The boston bomber, a couple hundred bucks, they were on benefits.
▶ 1:57:46Mr. Bruner: The truck driver, the oklahoma bombing, $1.9 a day from you haul. The money we're see goingout, it needs to be stopped because of the damage we see it do. The $14.1 trillion. There's so much money it's hard for a human to comprehend $14 trillion in asset. Sen. joon
▶ 1:58:13Sen. Jo Johnson: This is incredible important. Way more than fraud by vince. Organizations organizing this, I would argue for a political purpose. You go back to minneapolis, those protests, people just springing out of their houses. This was highly organized. Was it literally organized to turn people's attention away from the massive fraud? I know people made claims.
▶ 1:58:39Sen. Jo Johnson: I don't know but the only reason americans are furious at ice right now is because that was ginned up. Nose antors were trained to put themselves in harm's way. They got a cup 8 of martyrs. It's been incredibly effective but incredibly corrosive on our body politics.
▶ 1:59:01Chair Hawley: To your question, 14,000 pounds of $100 bills that left the minneapolis airport alone.
▶ 1:59:10Sen. Johnson: They actually filled out the forms. So it was in the paperwork. Where wasn't the I.r.s. Going where'd this money come from?
▶ 1:59:28Chair Hawley: We've talked about some of the necessary steps needed here to deal with the sort of fraud and corruption we've been talking about today. As a former interest there's nothing like the power of interesting and when you've $60 million in dark money flowing through at least 14 different groups for the minnesota protests alone, to say nothing of the other protests around the country.
▶ 1:59:56Chair Hawley: No foreign entity has any rights to the first amendment of the united states of miracle and when you are funding and funneling activity, that in itself is illegal. Blowing up cars on the california freeway is illegal. Disrupting students trying to go to school on our campuses is illegal and over and over again we see the money through these same networks throwing in.
▶ 2:00:21Chair Hawley: There need to be prosecutions here so I renew my call to the department of justice to investigate these dark money groups. Untangle this webb and bring prosecutions wherever you can because the american people deserve to have control of their government, not some forbillionaire or set of billionaires. Not some shadoy group of american billionaires. It should be we the people, not we the billionaires.
▶ 2:00:53Chair Hawley: It's got to stop and one of the best ways is with prosecution. Thank you to all of the witnesses for being here. The record of this hearing will remain open for 15 days. Wednesday february 25th of this year for submission of statement and questions for the record and with that, this hearing is adjourned. [captioning performed by the national captioning institute, which is responsible for its caption content and accuracy visit ncicap.org]