▶ 0:21:34>> good afternoon. Thank you to all the witnesses for being here. The title of this hearing is "somali fraud in minnesota - the tip of the iceberg." when the news broke about the level of childcare service fraud by somali nationals in minnesota, the american people were rightly shocked and outraged view the loss to the federal government, meaning the loss to american taxpayers, is
▶ 0:22:05Estimated to be at $9 billion or more. That estimate only covers what the U.S. government has discovered in one state, the state of minnesota. There are also credible allegations of the minnesota government knew about the fraud as early as 2011, and that governor walz and mayor frey not only were aware of the fraud as early as 2018-2019, but did nothing to stop it.
▶ 0:22:36Some of the individuals involved in the recent minnesota fraud scandals were U.S. citizens of somali descent, but there were also some somali nationals who were not U.S. citizens. To date, the U.S. department of justice has charged 98 defendants in the minnesota fraud -- in minnesota-fraud related cases, 85 of whom are of somali descent.
▶ 0:23:0498 have been charged, 85 are of somali descent. 64 have been convicted. The department of justice has also issued more than 1007 hundred 50 subpoenas, executed more than 130 search warrants, and conducted more than 1000 witness interviews.
▶ 0:23:28Sadly, as soon as the magnitude of the fraud was identified and amplified by an independent investigator following an appropriate surge of dhs integration resources into minnesota, the mainstream media and the radical left immediately began to call the U.S. government's actions racist, claiming the trump administration was on thoughtfully -- unlawfully targeting somali nationals.
▶ 0:23:55Not surprisingly, the aclu rushed out to sue the trump administration for simply enforcing the immigration laws as written. But fraud is fraud, and this recent episode unfortunately appears to be just the tip of the iceberg. I expect to hear more as a department of justice continues its investigations into fraud not only in minnesota but also in states like california.
▶ 0:24:22Recently, the government accountability office estimated that the federal government loses between $233 billion and $ 521 billion annually due to fraud and improper payments. Let me say that again. $233 billion to %21 $233 billion to %$521 billion is lost every year due to fraud and improper benefits of funds.
▶ 0:24:54Our national debt has surpassed $38 trillion and continues to climb. If the united states could recoup these hundreds of billions of dollars lost or brought every year, we might actually have some hope of getting our fiscal situation on a sustainable trajectory. I imagine the one in four american households who live paycheck-to-paycheck would love to have even a fraction of that money to pay down their bills, to buy groceries, and even treat their family to a dinner or movie.
▶ 0:25:27Now, eliminating fraud is more than just a matter of fiscal solvency. It also directs the safety and security of american citizens. Much of the fraud is committed by aliens, many of them criminal aliens, and we don't know what they're are doing with those stolen funds.
▶ 0:25:44In 2023, the federation of immigration reform, fair, estimated that medicaid lost approximately $8 billion in funding annually due to fraud attributable to illegal aliens. Similarly, feir estimated illegal aliens have obtained $3 billion in earned income tax credits with the average file or receiving is more than $4000.
▶ 0:26:12Over the last two years, $700 million of cash, largely tied to somali careers has been flown out of the minneapolis airport via suitcase, according to dhs officials. Dhs officials say this cash transfer has been occurring for close to a decade, that the practice has increased in recent years. The two major problems with this type of large cash transfer.
▶ 0:26:41First, we don't know whether the source of this cash is from any federal, state, or local benefit program. And second, the money could be used to fund somali terrorist organizations like al-shabaab. Taking cash out of the country is not necessarily illegal. Any individual departing the country with more than $10,000 in cash must file a customs declaration form about the amount of cash before they take off.
▶ 0:27:11The somali couriers are, in fact, legally declaring the cash they are taking out of the country ironically. From a fraud and national security perspective, the current customs form is not expansive enough to disclose the source of the cash these couriers are taking out of country, or the ultimate recipient of the cash. Later this week, I plan to introduce a bill to address this issue.
▶ 0:27:36This bill, called the stop somali currency airport smuggling fraud act, will strengthen the customs form for noncitizens only who are taking more than $10,000 in cash out of the country.
▶ 0:27:54This bill will require disclosure, whether the cash is from any federal, state, or local government, contract or benefit, additional background information on the individual transporting the cash, and additional background information on the ultimate recipient of the cash.
▶ 0:28:11More importantly, most importantly, it will require filling out the customs form 72 hours in advance which will give customs and border protection more time to fully vet the form before allowing noncitizens to leave the country with suitcases full of cash. In addition to those smuggling money out of the country to potentially supporting terrorists, those who commit fraud while staying in the country also pose a threat.
▶ 0:28:42President trump's team at the white house has uncovered numerous examples of illegal aliens arrested for crimes who have also been receiving medicaid. These individuals have been arrested for a variety of crimes ranging from child abuse to domestic battery to burglary to murder.
▶ 0:29:06During deliberations for the working family tax cuts which strengthen guard rails against illegal aliens receiving medicaid, democrats repeatedly assured republicans that illegal aliens are already ineligible for medicaid, and that we are simply barking up the wrong tree. But I'm grateful to president trump and his team for showing the american people the truth about what is actually happening.
▶ 0:29:32Fraud takes many different forms but the harm to americans is real. It can even have life-threatening consequences. A quick internet search will reveal numerous instances of foreign nationals who have been convicted of fraud, everything from wire fraud, manufacturing, selling counterfeit documents, fraudulently obtaining mass numbers of h-2b visas, and much more. None of these crimes are victimless.
▶ 0:30:02Consider the damage done to countless U.S. citizens whose identities are stolen. According to one report, over $19 billion was lost to identity theft annually. Many of the individuals who have been defrauded have to spend their own hard-earned money and countless hours and headaches to fix a mess that came about through no fault of their own. Which brings me to another point. I like to remind the public of something that is hardly ever reported on by the mainstream media.
▶ 0:30:33Too often we hear that ice and the cbp are arresting people who supposedly have no criminal record. But the fact that an alien has no criminal record, that is has never been arrested, charged, or convicted, doesn't mean that this individual has not broken the law. Consider what it takes an illegal alien to continue living in the united states, not to mention the fact that entering the country without authorization is a crime.
▶ 0:31:00To work, an illegal alien has to obtain some sort of identity document. In many instances, the identity documents are fraudulent or altered documents of real U.S. citizens, and the alien is assumed that person's identity. Stealing a U.S. citizen's identity or social number is a crime, but that isn't where the criminal activity stops.
▶ 0:31:27Once an alien has acquired a false identification, how would this person commute to work every day? I often by driving without a license, also a crime in most jurisdictions, or driving without insurance, also likely.a crime whether someone entered the country illegally or overstate a visa, there are certainly crimes at all aliens have committed against our immigration laws, even though they may not have yet been caught and the offenses may seem minor.
▶ 0:32:00But make no mistake, criminal aliens not only prey on unsuspecting U.S. citizens but they also pray on their own people, stealing the identities of other aliens lawfully in the united states to stay in the united states, working illegally, or in some instances, just defraud the U.S. government. So what can we do about it, what can congress, what can the government do about it?
▶ 0:32:26First, we can begin by prioritizing the thoroughness of security vetting, rather than the speed and efficiency like the biden administration did, as they waved hundreds of thousands, even millions of people during the four years of divided administration without adequate vetting. We can invest in fraud prevention and protection mechanisms that will allow federal, state, and local agencies to quickly identify those who are attempting to fraud.
▶ 0:32:55We can also require agencies to require biometric identification and verify that each alien's identity before the granted any federal, state, or local public benefit loan or grant. Furthermore, we can require automated, recurring identity verification, random audits, in person identity verification for all federal and state programs that provide funds and public services or programs.
▶ 0:33:27Finally, one thing I find surprising is that the american citizens in blue and red states are not demanding more accountability for the millions of americans who have been defrauded. It seems they are more interested in going out on the streets to actively protest against federal law enforcement officers who are not only doing the job they have been sworn to do, but enforcing the laws congress has passed. It is our responsibility as a U.S. government to protect the american people.
▶ 0:33:56It's also our duty to protect the american people and preserve the integrity of our republic. If we fail in those duties, we won't have a country any longer. I look forward to hearing from the witnesses and I will yield to my friend, senator padilla, for his opening statement.
▶ 0:34:15Sen. Padilla: Thank you, Mr. chairman. Thank you for everybody who is here today. Unfortunately not for the second week in a row, to allegedly talk about fraud cases in the state of minnesota. The majority has titled this hearing "the tip of the iceberg." not mentioning the majority witnesses articles. Let me be clear from the outset.
▶ 0:34:44Sen. Padilla: First, fraud of any kind is wrong. Second, no one is here to defend fraud. When fraud occurs, it should be investigated thoroughly, and the people responsible should be held accountable, just as the law requires. We all agree on that, and that is what is happening. In fact, it is happening in minnesota.
▶ 0:35:09Sen. Padilla: Many of the cases being referenced have thoroughly been investigated by the department of justice dating back to 2022 under the biden administration. More than 90 arrests have been made, updated numbers that you shared, Mr. chairman. 98 defendants have been charged. Prosecutions are ongoing and the people at fault are being held accountable. Mr. chairman, you are citing that 64 people have been convicted.
▶ 0:35:42Sen. Padilla: Fraud indeed has occurred under both republican and democratic administrations. For decades on the agencies responsible for reviewing immigration and visa applications have had systems in place to detect and address it. The immigration and nationality act includes strict penalties for fraud along with criminal enforcement mechanisms that are being used. This is current law, existing law.
▶ 0:36:14Sen. Padilla: Existing law in practice, existing law being applied. So the real question is, what is this hearing really about? It's about something far too familiar and far more troubling. It's about choosing to point to a few isolated incidents and using them to cast suspicion on entire communities.
▶ 0:36:40Sen. Padilla: We have seen this far too often throughout american history, using isolated criminal cases as a pretext to paint the entire immigrant communities with the broadest and most damaging brush possible. It is an old playbook, and it's a shameful one.
▶ 0:37:02Sen. Padilla: We have seen it with irish immigrants and the no irish need apply signed in the windows and businesses, italian immigrants suffered the same. Remember the chinese exclusion act? Again and again, immigrants have been scapegoated for society's problems whenever it has been politically convenient.
▶ 0:37:26Sen. Padilla: Today, the target is somali americans, lawfully admitted refugees, and U.S. citizens, and more broadly, anyone who application was approved under a president that this administration does not like.
▶ 0:37:46Sen. Padilla: Republicans want to take specific, well documented cases that again, cases that are already being investigated and prosecuted, and stretch them into a narrative of widespread abuse by immigrant communities more broadly. And we know where this leads. It becomes justification for targeting and expelling entire communities. Something that I'm not speculating anymore, it is happening in real time.
▶ 0:38:18Sen. Padilla: Just yesterday, we learned the asylum cases of hundreds of somali immigrants in minnesota, illinois, and nebraska were suddenly rescheduled or recategorized, accelerated by months and in some cases years, to be heard by the end of next month. Why? To target a specific ethnic group and place them on a fast track to deportation without meaningful due process.
▶ 0:38:50Sen. Padilla: But that narrative simply does not hold up against the facts. Because the evidence tells a different story. Study after study shows immigrants, both legal and undocumented, are less likely to commit crimes than people born in the united states.
▶ 0:39:11Sen. Padilla: One analysis from the american immigration counsel found undocumented immigrants specifically are about half as likely to be arrested for violent crimes and property crimes. Another from the cato insitute found that immigrants overall are 33% less likely to be incarcerated than U.S.-born individuals.
▶ 0:39:36Sen. Padilla: And if you look specifically at fraud, the very subject of this hearing, the numbers are even clearer. According to united states sentencing commission, noncitizens were responsible for just a little over 6% of benefit fraud convictions in 2024. These are not anecdotes, folks. This is verifiable data. And the economic data is just as clear.
▶ 0:40:06Sen. Padilla: Far from being a drain on our economy, immigrants are among its strongest contributors. So if we are not engaging honestly with these facts, then this hearing is not honestly about rooting out fraud. It seems to me this hearing is really about demonizing immigrants, especially immigrants of color, and advancing a narrative that does not hold up to scrutiny.
▶ 0:40:33Sen. Padilla: If this committee truly wanted to have a serious conversation about fraud, there are far more pressing concerns about fraud that we could and should be examining. We should be talking about how this administration is actively weakening the systems designed to detect and deter fraud, hollowing out enforcement agencies, undermining consumer protections, excepting financial investments and gifts from foreign entities, stripping
▶ 0:41:05Sen. Padilla: Resources from those charged with going after real wrongdoers, including inspectors general, and most glaringly, the president continually pardoning wealthy individuals who have been convicted of massive fraud, and canceling the restitution to victims.
▶ 0:41:24Sen. Padilla: Why is it that, at the same time immigrants are being targeted for mass deportation, the president unveiled a million dollar gold card, closing the door on doctors, engineers, and teachers, while opening it to the highest bidders. Mr.
▶ 0:41:44Sen. Padilla: Chairman, you talk about the bill you are planning to introduce in a few days, demanding where the money comes from, where the money is going. I am calling on that same disclosure for all gold card applicants. Where is there money coming from? But this gold card proposal, that is what systemic fraud looks like.
▶ 0:42:13Sen. Padilla: Fraud that this committee, under this majority, refuses to examine. Instead, they are seeking to perpetuate a tired myth that all immigrants bring crime with them when they come to this country despite overwhelming evidence to the contrary. So let's be honest about what this hearing is and what it is not. This hearing is not about facts, it is not about accountability, and it is not about protecting taxpayers.
▶ 0:42:40Sen. Padilla: It is about fear, it's about scapegoating, it's about demonizing immigrants for political gain. That may make for a convenient talking point, but it is wrong, and it does not make for responsible governance or policymaking. Mr. chairman, it is certainly not with the american people expect or deserve from the united states senate.
▶ 0:43:01Chair Cornyn: Now I will introduce the majority witnesses and turned to senator padilla to introduce the minority witnesses, and then we will administer the oath. Rebecca gambler's chief quality officer and managing director of audit policy and quality assurance at the government accountability office. Ms. gambler currently serves in that capacity.
▶ 0:43:24Chair Cornyn: She has previously served as a director at gao's homeland security and justice team where she had led gao's work on border security, immigration, and election issues. She joined gao in 2002 and has worked on a wide range of issues related to homeland and justice. She has a masters degree in national security and strategic studies from the U.S.
▶ 0:43:48Chair Cornyn: Naval war college, masters degree in international relations from syracuse university, and a masters degree in political science from the university of toronto. She has a bachelor's degree in political science. Simon hankinson is senior research fellow, border security and immigration center at the heritage foundation. Mr.
▶ 0:44:11Chair Cornyn: Hankinson recently testified before this committee on president biden's parole program and the lack of vetting of afghan nationals. He served as a foreign service officer from 1999 to 2022 in india, fiji, ghana, slovakia, togo, washington, D.C., marseille, and nairobi. Prior to his work as a foreign service officer, Mr.
▶ 0:44:38Chair Cornyn: Hankinson worked as a lawyer in london and then taught history, english, and drama at a private school in miami. He holds a masters degree in modern history from st. Andrews, scotland, degree from the college of law in london, masters degree in international security affairs from the national defense university in washington, D.C. phillip linderman, center for immigration studies and the ben franklin fellowship. Mr.
▶ 0:45:08Chair Cornyn: Linderman is a retired state department foreign service officer as well. Over a three-decade career, he served abroad in U.S. embassies and consulates in belgium, mexico, ecuador, germany, cuba, chile, and trinidad. He also represented U.S. interests at the organization of american states and the eu. Mr. linderman's to the leading duties focus on international travel and protecting borders.
▶ 0:45:37Chair Cornyn: He collaborated with friendly foreign governments and work with U.S. law enforcement and intelligence agencies on visa and passport fraud, human trafficking, and terrorist travel and watchlisting. Matt o'brien is the deputy executive director for the federation for american immigration reform. He is responsible for overseeing affairs and investigations, legislation and education activities. Previously, Mr.
▶ 0:46:04Chair Cornyn: O'brien as director of research of affairs and director of investigations at the affiliate, the immigration reform law institute. Mr. o'brien has three decades of frontline experience in government, having held multiple senior positions including as an assistant chief immigration judge, overseeing the U.S. immigration court in annandale, virginia.
▶ 0:46:29Chair Cornyn: As the chief of the national security division at uscis fraud detection and national security directorate, and as assistant chief counsel with U.S. immigration and customs enforcement. I will turn to senator padilla to introduce the remaining witnesses.
▶ 0:46:45Sen. Padilla: Thank you. I want to welcome and briefly introduce the minority witnesses. Mr. eric schwartz and david bier . Professor eric schwartz is chair of the global policy area at the humphrey school of public affairs at the university of minnesota. Mr. schwartz is a former director of peace international and has an extensive background in government work, having served as an assistant secretary of state for populations, or he days, and migration at the state department.
▶ 0:47:15Sen. Padilla: The senior human rights and humanitarian official at the national security council and as a staff consultant to the house representatives foreign affairs subcommittee on asian and pacific affairs. His extensive work in the field a few minutes here and efforts make him one of the most preeminent experts in this area, and we thank him for being with us today. Mr. david bier is the director of immigration studies at the selz foundation, chair in immigration policy at the cato insitute.
▶ 0:47:45Sen. Padilla: He is an expert on illegal immigration, border security, and interior enforcement, and served as a senior policy adviser to former republican congressman raul labrador. In that capacity, he drafted immigration legislation to representative labrador, then the chairman of the house judiciary subcommittee on immigration and border security. Mr.
▶ 0:48:09Sen. Padilla: Bier has been published in numerous prominent national publications and has been cited on multiple occasions by united states supreme court and federal circuit courts. Mr. bier is a clinical science graduate from the college in pennsylvania and his experience in the field of immigration makes him a great source of knowledge for a hearing today. I thank them both for their participation.
▶ 0:48:49Chair Cornyn: For five minutes.
▶ 0:48:53Ms. Gambler: Good afternoon, chairman cornyn, ranking member padilla, members of the subcommittee, thank you for the opportunity to testify at today's hearing to discuss gao's work on U.S. citizenship and immigration services efforts to address fraud risks and immigration benefit programs. Uscis processes millions of applications and petitions each year for persons seeking to visit the U.S. for temporary activities, to reside in the U.S. on a permanent basis, or to become U.S. citizens.
▶ 0:49:24Ms. Gambler: To ensure the integrity of the immigration system, uscis reviews applications and petitions for potential fraud. Immigration benefit fraud is the active willfully or knowingly misrepresenting material facts to obtain an immigration benefit for which the individual would otherwise be ineligible. Benefit fraud can occur in a number of ways and is often facilitated by document or identity fraud.
▶ 0:49:50Ms. Gambler: Today I'll be highlighting two recent gao reports on uscis's efforts to manage fraud risks across immigration benefits it adjudicates and in three humanitarian parole processes for noncitizens with usb supporters. First come in september september 22, we reported uscis could better ensure its antifraud efforts are effective and efficient by taking a more strategic and risk-based approach to managing fraud risks.
▶ 0:50:20Ms. Gambler: For example, at the time of our report, uscis had conducted fraud risk assessments for a small number of specific immigration benefits but did not plan to conduct additional assessments. We also found that uscis and also not developed an antifraud strategy or evaluated its antifraud activities for effectiveness and efficiency.
▶ 0:50:40Ms. Gambler: We recommended that uscis develop and implement a process for regularly conducting fraud risk assessments, developing and updating an antifraud strategy, and evaluating the effectiveness and efficiency of antifraud activities. Uscis agreed with these recommendations it has taken some steps toward addressing them. However, uscis need to take additional action to fully implement these recommendations.
▶ 0:51:08Ms. Gambler: Second, in december of last year, we reported on humanitarian parole processes for noncitizens with U.S.-based supporters. The particular processes be reviewed where, one, the processes for cubans, haitians, nicaraguans, and venezuelans, known as chnv, two, uniting for ukraine, three, family unification parole.
▶ 0:51:31Ms. Gambler: Our analysis of homeland security data found that from may 2000 22 through september 2024, the department granted parole to about 774,000 noncitizens under these processes. And implement in the processes, uscis was was possible for reviewing supporter applications. If uscis confirmed the application, U.S. customs and border protection was responsible for vetting the prospective beneficiary, determining whether to authorize them to travel to the U.S.
▶ 0:52:01Ms. Gambler: And considering them for discretionary grant parole upon their arrival. Shortly after the processes began, uscis began receiving referrals of potential fraud and in 2000 24 conducted an analysis of supporter applications. Based on this analysis, uscis found that fraud indicators were widespread in uniting for ukraine and chnv.
▶ 0:52:28Ms. Gambler: Fraud indicators among the applications included supporter information belonging to deceased individuals, counterfeit or altered documents, and thousands of applications with at least one piece of fictitious supporter information. The department of home insecurity suspended the chnv and uniting for ukraine processes in 2020 four due to the fraud risks and subsequently terminated chnv in march 2025.
▶ 0:52:53Ms. Gambler: Uscis assessments attributed the risks identified in the parole processes to insufficient internal control activities. We concluded that although dhs has ended the supporter-based parole processes, uscis could still benefit from having an internal control plan in place for future situations that may introduce new or increased fraud risks, and we recommended that uscis develop such a plan.
▶ 0:53:21Ms. Gambler: In closing, implementing our recommendations would help uscis take a more strategic and risk-based approach to managing fraud risks. We will continue to follow up on uscis's action to implement our recommendations. This concludes my prepared statement. I would be pleased to answer any questions that members may have.
▶ 0:53:41Chair Cornyn: Thank you. Mr. hankinson.
▶ 0:53:45Mr. Hankinson: Chairman cornyn, ranking member padilla, members of the committee, I'm hoping we are here today to examine the issues posed by immigration benefits application from somalia. Some always very person to person. The most famous of all the americans I know of are congresswoman ilhan omar and a writer. Their views are very far apart, yet both have been accused of immigration fraud. The question before us is not about race, it's not about religion.
▶ 0:54:15Mr. Hankinson: The question is how we calculate risks and rewards across migrant populations so we can decide who to let into our country. Last year, do you just looked at immigration benefit applications in minnesota and found evidence of fraud or national security concerns and 44% of cases. Uscis chief said that should shock all of america.
▶ 0:54:34Mr. Hankinson: It doesn't shock me because in my consular assignment, I was like too many times a day about every aspect of applicant cases including their age, name, identity, occupation, marital status, purpose of travel, income, and intent to return home. It's an unfortunate fact, people like to get visas and immigration benefits. In an interview with a consular officer, the second line of bedding is through automatic checks of U.S. databases.
▶ 0:55:03Mr. Hankinson: If a foreigner has a record in the database, we can see it but the great weakness of vetting is what I called the 9-0 rule, nothing in, nothing out. Let's assume that a visa applicant has committed a serious crime in his home country has no law enforcement or centralize records. If his country is in capable of recording or unwilling to share this criminal record, then we have no way of knowing the truth unless the individual self-reports on his application form. In my experience, many applicants with adverse histories don't volunteer this information.
▶ 0:55:33Mr. Hankinson: Typically, the more corrupt and poor a country is, the more visa fraud. Somalia is as poor and as corrupt as countries get. In 2025, view and rate somalia 192 out of 193 countries on a team and develop an index. The U.S. embassy in nairobi, kenya, I supervised consulate operations for the somali since we have no consulate presence there. Here are some examples of the routine front we saw.
▶ 0:56:05Mr. Hankinson: Fraudulent claims to marriages and family relationships, unauthorized letters of support from the government, fraudulent employment letters, educational qualifications, letters of invitation from some police in america that would sponsor individuals and so on. This hearing is about a visa fraud, not welfare fraud, but they are connected. Like crime, correction rings follow host countries at least in the first generation. The refugees in the U.S.
▶ 0:56:30Mr. Hankinson: Can be eligible with no waiting period for federal benefits including medicaid, cash and medical assistance, social services, social security, supplemental security income, supplemental nutrition assistance program, temporary assistance for needy families and federal student aid.
▶ 0:56:47Mr. Hankinson: All americans or americans of all back on have been known to commit fraud, but the concentration and the scale of the welfare benefit fraud committed by people of somali dissent in minnesota is still notable with losses estimating in the millions. U.S. asylum system is also easy to defraud because there are too many cases where we lack the resources to verify every applicants claim in their home country.
▶ 0:57:09Mr. Hankinson: There were over 1.5 million cases pending at uscis and that backlog encourages more fraud because aliens know they can stay here for years before their cases get the cited. If they obtain U.S. visas by fraud, they usually go on to become american citizens all on the foundations of an original line. Want citizens, they can petition to bring in the relatives. In 2017, he was prosecuted a fake family of five somalis in minnesota who fraudulently obtained U.S.
▶ 0:57:36Mr. Hankinson: Citizenship after winning the green card lottery under false names and relationships. I would call that a rare win among many fraudulent cases that are never discovered. In addition, some always perpetual violence makes it likely that some of the solids have persecuted others in the past which should render them in eligible but we would have no way of knowing without being able to bet them and have accurate records. Some somalis have gotten a second nationality including in the U.S., yet they go back to somalia regularly to do business. Other space in the U.S.
▶ 0:58:05Mr. Hankinson: Have financed a terror activity or recruited others to fight for al-shabaab. These activities are incompatible with asylum status and citizenship. Do you launched an operation minnesota to review thousands of cases through background checks and verification which I think is a great start. They should apply the growing power of artificial intelligence to look at fraud patterns and all immigration benefits to my from these way to naturalization.
▶ 0:58:31Mr. Hankinson: We have to do that to against restore integrity in our system and punish those who abuse our generosity. We should not be getting immigration benefits to people from countries in general whose identities we cannot verify and whose documents are unreliable and whose criminal records cannot be checked. Thank you very much. Happy to take questions.
▶ 0:58:49Chair Cornyn: Mr. linderman.
▶ 0:58:53Mr. Linderman: Thank you for the opportunity. As a U.S. -- who don't look consular issues during my time in trinidad, cuba, ecuador, mexico, I came to regular contact with widespread fraudulent activities related to obtaining U.S. visas. The route took place at many levels. Sometimes it involves simple cases of altered documents, other times, it involved criminal networks that link back to the united states.
▶ 0:59:18Mr. Linderman: The most challenging and pernicious aspect of sophisticated fraud involved corrupt host government authorities who provided bogus official documents to crooked visa applicants. This unscripted this practice is common in countries with widespread government corruption. The U.S. visa process is driven by a documentation, documentation presented by applicants, particularly those who show their family relationships, educational and work history, police and medical records.
▶ 0:59:46Mr. Linderman: In conspiracy with corrupt government officials, malfeasance visa applicants can obtain falsified birth, marriage, divorce, or police documents among others. Years ago, the congress passed the immigration and nationality act to set the standards for U.S. consular officers to adjudicate visas. The ina rightly puts the burden of proof on visa applicants to demonstrate their bona fide use of a visa benefit.
▶ 1:00:13Mr. Linderman: This process however is fundamentally complicated when applicants can procure from local government authorities through bribes or illicit favors , official documentation that falsely attests to vital information. When visa applicants present such falsified documentation, the burden of proof and effect has been flipped back on the consular officer to demonstrate that the government issued a document is bogus. Demonstrating such fraud is a supreme challenge for consular officers.
▶ 1:00:45Mr. Linderman: Only so much information can be distracted during a short visa interview. Consular field investigations are costly and time-consuming, and very few can be rigorously followed up. In addition, for many years, state department had prioritized issuing visas over interest in getting fraud. Consular officers were given interview quotas, posts were order to avoid visa backlogs and waiting times, and there were always powerful voices in washington constantly insisting that all visas be issued and fast.
▶ 1:01:16Mr. Linderman: Over the decades, of my career almost nobody spoke up of those consular officers who did not want to issue visas because they had fraud concerns. So what can be done? My recommendation is to make the host governments where our embassies operate take response abilities for their citizens who present fraudulent documents. Right now, these governments typically ignore the fraud.
▶ 1:01:41Mr. Linderman: The number of criminal prosecutions that host governments undertake against local fraud rings and their own corrupt bureaucrats are very, very few. Each U.S. embassy writes an annual report on the visa fraud in the host country rip where they work. These reports are a wealth of information visa fraud in that country and across the world, but state department does not -- keep these documents as internal. They do not make them public, and they do almost nothing with them.
▶ 1:02:11Mr. Linderman: This is a big mistake. These reports to be made a part of the bilateral agenda in all countries where the fraud is high. Unofficially, consular officers speak up visa countries such as bangladesh, brazil, china, dominican republic, ecuador, ghana, haiti, india, mexico, nigeria, philippines, and vietnam to name just some. Unfortunately, the state department almost never raises this issue on the bilateral agenda.
▶ 1:02:42Mr. Linderman: Now is the moment for state department to use these reports to take the diplomatic offensive against high fraud countries, instead of dealing with each of dealing with each visa fraud applicant as an endless series of isolated problems. U.S. policy should curtail visa services in those countries that tolerate or are complicit in high levels of fraud. The lesson is that visa fraud must be addressed overseas.
▶ 1:03:08Mr. Linderman: Host governments cannot be allowed to turn a blind eye to what their unscrupulous citizens do to obtain a U.S. visa. Thank you, Mr. chairman.
▶ 1:03:16Chair Cornyn: Thank you, Mr. linderman. Mr. o'brien.
▶ 1:03:21Mr. O'Brien: Chairman cornyn, ranking member padilla, members of the subcommittee, fraud in the united states has increased dramatically, driven in large part by electronic systems that make it easy to hide one's true identity. The federal trade commission reports that financial losses tied to fraud in the united states rose 25% from the period 2023-2024, over 12.5 billion dollars.
▶ 1:03:48Mr. O'Brien: But what many americans don't realize is that immigration-related fraud represents a largely unacknowledged share of the problem. We have heard about immigration benefit fraud but there is not the type of fraud that a company's immigration, which we refer to at uscis as U.S. immigration related fraud. That consists of crimes committed to obtain life in the united states when someone lacks lawful status, identity at that, false claims to U.S. citizenship, social security fraud, tax fraud, and more.
▶ 1:04:21Mr. O'Brien: Many migrants face strong pressures to succeed, recognize opportunities created by weak oversight, and they rationalize fraudulent conduct based on ideological narratives, and their home countries. The result is widespread repeated fraud that touches nearly every part of our government systems. Despite this, reliable data about fraud is remarkable he scares. Agencies release occasional program specific reports, but there is no consistent governmentwide picture.
▶ 1:04:50Mr. O'Brien: The most comprehensive historical data, nearly two decades old, showed immigration from prosecution more than doubling between 2004 and 2006. Even then, those cases represented only the fraud that we caught. Today, with dramatically higher migration flows, the true scale is unquestionably far larger. A central problem is a lack of coordinated federal strategy.
▶ 1:05:14Mr. O'Brien: Response ability for detecting and prosecuting immigration fraud is scattered across the uscis, ice, cbp, state department, doj, ssa, irs, and state agencies. That multiplicity of agencies often comes with poor communication and overlapping jurisdictions that cause problems. Within uscis, fraud detection has long been treated as a secondary to rapid benefit approval.
▶ 1:05:45Mr. O'Brien: The fraud detection and national security directorate was created only in 2004, and for years, its work was viewed internally as an impediment rather than a core mission. In some cases, senior officials even pressured adjudicators to overlook questionable applications for politically connected individuals.
▶ 1:06:05Mr. O'Brien: The cost of this systemic neglect is enormous, although no official estimate exists for immigration-specific fraud, the official cost of illegal immigration which has driven in large part by fraudulent access to taxpayer funded programs, has been estimated at roughly $150 billion annually. That figure does not capture the everyday identity theft, tax evasion, and document fraud that rippled through our communities and institutions.
▶ 1:06:34Mr. O'Brien: The good news is the problem is largely solvable. Immigration benefit fraud can be sharply reduced by refusing to admit applicants whose identities cannot be reliably verified. Effective betting requires records, school files, property records, financial histories, and other documentations. Many migrants currently arriving in the united states come from countries with poor record-keeping systems, or governments unwilling to share information.
▶ 1:07:00Mr. O'Brien: When we cannot verify an applicant's background, we cannot responsibly assess whether that applicant poses a threat or is engaged in fraud. Where verification is impossible, denial must be the default. Immigration related fraud is even easier to address.
▶ 1:07:19Mr. O'Brien: Systems like e-verify and save allow us to detect identity fraud, unlawful employment, and fraudulent claim for public benefits quickly and efficiently, making these systems mandatory nationwide, paired with lot to prevent issuing licenses or identity documents to individuals whose identities and intentions cannot be confirmed would eliminate millions of opportunities for fraud. A false statement on an immigration form often lead to identity theft, illegal employment, fraudulent tax filings, and illicit financial activity.
▶ 1:07:51Mr. O'Brien: These crimes undermine the integrity of our institutions and erode trust within our communities. They are also tools used by criminal networks, foreign intelligence services, and terrorist organizations to conceal their activities in the united states. Thank you. I look forward to your questions.
▶ 1:08:06Chair Cornyn: Thank you. We are going to pause for a moment. I know senator durbin is here, the ranking member. Senator durbin, do you have any opening remarks you would like to make?
▶ 1:08:19Sen. Durbin: I would, thank you. And the troubling first weeks of this year, federal immigration agents shot and killed two of our fellow americans in minneapolis. These killings followed other instances of brutal violence and arrests in minneapolis, chicago, and cities around our country.
▶ 1:08:38Sen. Durbin: Under the trump administration, we have seen unprecedented numbers of deaths in federal immigration detention one of which was recently ruled a homicide desperate families are waiting for answers like many others. These are the devastating impacts of this administration's reckless, aggressive, mass deportation campaign.
▶ 1:08:59Sen. Durbin: As members of the senate judiciary committee, it's our responsibility, committee and legal response ability, to conduct much needed oversight of the trump administration and have a reasoned, bipartisan discussion on how to stop these abuses of power and fix the broken immigration system. Instead we are having our second hearing in two weeks demonizing an entire community based on a few individuals' misconduct.
▶ 1:09:26Sen. Durbin: Quite simply, republicans on this committee are working overtime for the trump administration's attacks on lawfully admitted refugees. This administration shot down refugee admissions on day one, except for white afrikaners. They justified this decision based on fraud. To be clear, under the biden administration, refugees went through multilayered, rigorous vetting processes, considered the gold standard of vetting.
▶ 1:09:55Sen. Durbin: In contrast, under this administration, from the comfort of their homes in south africa, afrikaners can apply for a refugee program using a google phone. This processing takes less than a month from south africa, and it shows, consider one recently arrived afrikaner refugee. He made disgusting anti-semitic posts in 20 before he was admitted to this country as a refugee. Yet, he was approved in record time by this administration.
▶ 1:10:26Sen. Durbin: This administration claims it will revoke visas for quote anti-semitic activity. At the same time, this administration is rounding up lawfully admitted refugees. Immigration agents have arrested over 100 refugees with no criminal record in minnesota and flew them to detention centers in texas for "interviews." some were released in the middle of the night,. Thousands of milesfrom home they had no idea where they were. They were not even give paperwork or identification.
▶ 1:10:58Sen. Durbin: These individuals had emigrated the right way to the united states. Many waited for years in refugee camps overseas. They underwent extensive vetting by the department of homeland security and other federal agencies. They arrived on flights awarded by the U.S. government. It is wrong to treat these refugees like they are fraudsters, so why is the government putting these highly vetted refugees in shackles, transporting them thousands of miles from home and interviewing them in the tension -- detention?
▶ 1:11:28Sen. Durbin: We only have to look to the president's own words. He has repeated they made bigoted and racist attacks on somali americans, calling them "courage -- garbage." he said he doesn't want immigrants froms-hole countries. I was sitting in the oval office when he said that. The racist attacks have not stopped with immigrants. Just last week, trump posted a disgusting racist image of former president barack obama and his wife michelle.
▶ 1:12:00Sen. Durbin: They are my personal friends. Barack was my colleague. I was the first senator to endorse him for president. I resent that president trump created an image that is so demeaning to this man and his wife. His staff took the image down but he refuses to apologize. The words "I'm sorry" is not in the president's vocabulary. This racism should have no place in our society or immigration system and should have no place in this committee. Let's be clear.
▶ 1:12:29Sen. Durbin: Fraud is a crime and should be prosecuted. I will remind everyone, it was the biden justice department opened the minnesota fraud investigation and brought the first prosecution. It is the truck justice department that has diverted prosecutors and fbi agents away from fraud investigations to focus on the president's mass deportation campaign. Refugees are some of the most vulnerable and vetted individuals in the united states. You can target fraud without targeting and shackling them in the dead of night.
▶ 1:13:00Sen. Durbin: It is time to reject these racist attacks and restore order and human terry -- in the immigration system. >> this thing which members of the subcommittee, thank you for the opportunity to testify. For nearly half a century, the cato insitute's research has shown that people of any ancestry, background, or birthplace can be assets in a free society.
▶ 1:13:27Sen. Durbin: America's immigrants exemplify this truth, despite often leaving terrible conditions abroad, immigrants work, start businesses, an event at higher rates than U.S.-born populations. Cato's recent analysis shows that immigrants reduce the deficit by $11.5 trillion over the last 30 years. Including about $140 billion in minnesota.
▶ 1:13:56Sen. Durbin: Although welfare fraud is a serious problem, immigrants are not to blame. Noncitizens account for just 5% of welfare fraud losses. 31% less per capita than U.S. citizens. Rather than targeting entire ethnic groups, congress should end the broken welfare systems, namely the oversight-free aid to states that led to all the fraud in minnesota. But let's be clear. Dhs is not anti-fraud.
▶ 1:14:28Sen. Durbin: Dhs is itself openly carrying out the largest fraud in history of U.S. immigration systems. They are raking in billions in immigration fees and not providing adjudications that applicants are entitled to. For individuals for over 90 countries, half of all legal immigrants, the administration is not processing their applications. The burden of proof is already on these applicants.
▶ 1:14:57Sen. Durbin: Dhs and state can deny anyone who fails to make their case. Instead this administration is pocketing thousands of dollars from hard-working americans and their relatives, including spouses and minor children of U.S. citizens, and then not even looking at their applications. This is a scam. It is fraud.
▶ 1:15:22Sen. Durbin: Dhs' entire minnesota operation is another kind of scam sold to the public on lies. Dhs has not criminally charged anyone with fraud there and 60% of its immigrant arrests in minnesota have no criminal convictions or charges. Dhs itself classifies just 8% of its arrests in minnesota as the highest threat level.
▶ 1:15:49Sen. Durbin: In three quarters of arrests it classifies as not being a threat at all. Instead of arresting fraudsters, it is seeking 5600 legal, vetted refugees. Nursing mothers, single parents, long-term residents, already dragged away from their families without any evidence of fraud at all.
▶ 1:16:17Sen. Durbin: Rather than a law enforcer, dhs has become the biggest lawbreaker in america today. In less than a year dhs has attacked the first, the second, the fourth, fifth, sixth, eighth, 10th, 14th amendments to the U.S. constitution. The writs of habeas corpus, the independent judiciary, and much more.
▶ 1:16:40Sen. Durbin: Every day, masked dhs agents detain americans based on their race and demographics. They arrest legal immigrants for criticizing their foreign policy and americans for recording them doing it. They threaten, assault, even to people for exercising their first and their second amendment rights.
▶ 1:17:07Sen. Durbin: They break into our homes without judicial warrants, they sentenced legal immigrants to foreign prisons without trials. They are trying to strip the citizenship of americans born in this country. They detain people without lawful basis and they ignore court orders to release them. And of course, they lie about all of it.
▶ 1:17:34Sen. Durbin: Combating fraud and upholding the rule of law is important, but the public cannot have faith in that effort by an administration that regularly gets away with fraud, lies and lawlessness. Even the fbi supervisor and 14 U.S. attorneys in minnesota who were responsible for leading the welfare fraud effort there lost faith. They quit because of dhs' operations there. We need accountability.
▶ 1:18:07Sen. Durbin: The supreme court has said congress has not authorized americans to sue immigration agencies for constitutional violations. So fix it. No more absolute immunity, as the white house says. The new standard, absolute accountability. Anything less would be a fraud. Thank you.
▶ 1:18:32Chair Cornyn: Mr. schwartz?
▶ 1:18:35Mr. Schwartz: Mr. chairman, senator padilla, [indiscernible] the center of somali america. Businesses contributing to vitality in communities that face economic distress.
▶ 1:19:07Mr. Schwartz: I will begin by noting minneapolis is hosting a militarized federal law enforcement presence with I.c.e. And to the cbp personnel committing civil rights violations that have been credibly documented and include unlawful killings, arbitrary arrests and detentions, harsh
▶ 1:19:37Mr. Schwartz: Mistreatment, transport out of the state of minnesota and perhaps most ominously, disregard of court orders. The result, individual suffering that I unfortunately have witnessed firsthand and personal anguish, families -- and pervasive anxiety that shapes our learning environment -- >> Mr. schwartz, is your microphone on? >> ok, I think it is on now.
▶ 1:20:08Mr. Schwartz: >> I could hear you, but --
▶ 1:20:11Mr. Schwartz: It would be unconscionable for me not to raise an obvious and deep concern. Why this subcommittee is not focusing on a pattern of serious civil rights abuses affecting immigrant communities in minnesota.
▶ 1:20:31Mr. Schwartz: These are the hallmarks of violations we more readily associate with countries like china or russia and we have told those governments that no matter how important the law enforcement concerns, they do not justify abuses. Isn't that a message we ourselves should take on board?
▶ 1:20:49Mr. Schwartz: Members of the committee should also be alarmed that the framing of this hearing, risks tarring an entire community with the presumption of criminality, especially as there is no verifiable evidence that there is a greater degree of illegality in the somali american community then and other immigrant communities or for that matter than among U.S. citizens.
▶ 1:21:16Mr. Schwartz: These concerns are compounded when the president refers to somali americans as garbage, as garbage, and declares he does not want them in the united states. Nearly all the members of this subcommittee have a critical mass of somali americans who are your constituents. But how many of you have condemned the president's bigoted and racist statements?
▶ 1:21:38Mr. Schwartz: Turning to the somali community in minnesota broadly, somali americans have played a significant role in the vitality of minnesota's economy and cultural life. Minnesota's high quality of life measurements compared to most other states in the country are due in no small measure to minnesota's immigrant population which is critical to meet demand for labor in the decades to come. I will now turn to the question of refugee vetting.
▶ 1:22:07Mr. Schwartz: By the advent of the second trump administration the U.S. had in place the most extensive refugee vetting system in the world, they face vetting more thorough than for any other travelers to the united states. Applicants undergo biographic and biometric checks, overseas in person interviews by officers and security reviews involving intelligence and law enforcement databases.
▶ 1:22:34Mr. Schwartz: Finally on the question of the feeding our future issue in minnesota, investigations were initiated and indictments announced by a former U.S. attorney andrew looper, with integrity and professionalism. More than 50 individuals have pled guilty or been convicted.
▶ 1:22:53Mr. Schwartz: If the president of the united states were serious about addressing this kind of crime, a purported cause of the militarized federal presence in minneapolis, he would have retained and strengthened the highly competent legal team working on these issues, rather than deploying thousands of I.c.e. And cbp officers who are abusing the rights of residents. Fraud must be investigated and persecuted when it -- prosecuted when it occurs.
▶ 1:23:23Mr. Schwartz: But congress should not condone rhetoric that stigmatizes entire communities. Moreover if one key concern of this subcommittee is accountability, as it should be, as it must be, I urge you to direct your focus where accountability is at risk, in safeguarding citizens and residents from abuses by those who are entrusted to enforce our law. Thank you.
▶ 1:23:50Chair Cornyn: Ms. gambler, for the general public that may be listening today, what is the general accountability office?
▶ 1:23:59Ms. Gambler: The government accountability office? We are congress' watchdog, chairman. Our mission is to evaluate how federal taxpayer dollars are spent and to issue reports on the result of our evaluations to congress.
▶ 1:24:19Chair Cornyn: The gao has estimated in an april 2024 report that the U.S. government loses between $233 to $533 billion to fraud or improper payments annually, correct?
▶ 1:24:35Ms. Gambler: That is right. That estimate was focused on losses attributed to fraud each year, but that was the estimate gao has made about the federal government's annual losses, estimated annual losses attributed to fraud.
▶ 1:24:51Chair Cornyn: So fraud is real? Not a figment of our imagination? It is not racism to identify fraud where it exists? It is real?
▶ 1:25:04Ms. Gambler: There are absolutely cases of fraud affecting federal government programs.
▶ 1:25:10Chair Cornyn: During the biden administration, there were two programs I wanted to ask you about, one having to do with the humanitarian parole process, and the other, the placement of unaccompanied children with sponsors in the interior of the country. I understand the gao has made investigations of both of those programs, is that right?
▶ 1:25:33Ms. Gambler: That is right, chairman.
▶ 1:25:35Chair Cornyn: It gets complicated I think for most folks to comprehend, but there are people who claim asylum, that is essentially, they are present in the U.S. with the border and they would qualify let's say to be refugee if they were overseas but they have some statutory basis for seeking admission to the united states, is that your understanding?
▶ 1:26:03Ms. Gambler: That is right, there are different statutory pathways by which individuals, foreign nationals, can be legally admitted to the U.S.
▶ 1:26:12Chair Cornyn: In addition to that and I think Mr. hankinson or Mr. linderman pointed out there are 1.5 million pending asylum cases in front of the immigration courts, simply flooded our capacity to deal with that.
▶ 1:26:30Chair Cornyn: In addition to people claiming asylum, the biden administration used something they call the humanitarian parole, to let huge numbers of people into the country. We have seen witnesses testify before, Mr. hankinson, you may have been one of them, that point out the parole process is supposed to be case-by-case, not categorical. In other words people from certain countries get admitted without any further question.
▶ 1:27:03Chair Cornyn: What sort of fraud did you at the gao find in the humanitarian parole process during the biden administration?
▶ 1:27:11Ms. Gambler: Thank you for the question. In the review I mentioned in my opening remarks we looked at three parole processes available to noncitizens with U.S.-based sponsors and in reviewing those programs, we found that through uscis' own assessment of the program, of the processes, there were widespread fraud indicators in those processes, to include supporter applications including
▶ 1:27:43Ms. Gambler: Fictitious information or information that belonged to deceased individuals. Through uscis' own assessment they found fraud risk indicators in those processes.
▶ 1:27:54Chair Cornyn: To give people a sense of what the magnitude of what we are dealing with as a result of the mass of humanity that has come across our border largely unvented using -- unvetted using a bogus process of categorical parole in addition we have overwhelmed the immigration port system, on .5 million pending cases and Mr.
▶ 1:28:25Chair Cornyn: Hankinson or Mr. linderman perhaps you would care to comment on this. I will ask consent that a document from the executive office for immigration review adjudication statistics he made part of the record. That is from the department of justice. It shows in 2025 alone there were 485,456 orders of removal.
▶ 1:28:50Chair Cornyn: People who sought to have their legal rights vindicated in court and they simply lost. 277,000 of them were criminal aliens with final orders. In other words ordered to be removed from the country but simply stayed in defiance of the law. Of that, 267,000 were not detained. In other words they are still running loose around the country.
▶ 1:29:15Chair Cornyn: That includes 190,000 convicted criminals and 27,000 with criminal pending charges and detained, 9,613. It seems pretty clear to me that just the volume of people coming across the country has overwhelmed both the illegal immigration enforcement, enforcement of our immigration laws, and the legal systems that
▶ 1:29:46Chair Cornyn: We set up to try to determine whether people have a legal right to come and stay in the united states. That is on top of the points Mr. linderman and Mr. hankinson had made about countries many of these folks come from have no reliable records, so it is almost impossible to vet these people coming into these countries -- coming in from these countries.
▶ 1:30:12Sen. Padilla: Let's be honest, this administration is in the process of collectively punishing refugees because their applications, sometimes pending for years, were approved under the prior administration. My colleagues on the right want speedy approvals of south african afrikaner refugees who are not even going through the typical u.n.
▶ 1:30:38Sen. Padilla: Referral process and are screened and admitted more rapidly than any other group of refugees going back to 1980. I believe that anyone who can show they are eligible should have a fair review of their application. My first question is for Mr. schwartz. Can you tell us what you're seeing on the ground in minnesota and how refugees are being treated?
▶ 1:31:02Mr. Schwartz: It is heartbreaking. Of course I'm at the university so day in, day out I'm probably seeing the more elite of the refugee immigrant population, people who have more means of better understanding of the legal system, but the stories I have heard. A student of mine whose wife is here legally, she works at a hospice for goodness sake.
▶ 1:31:33Mr. Schwartz: She was taken, detained by I.c.e. Or cbp, I don't know which. Had an awful circumstance. Was suffering from various medical conditions and was so traumatized by the experience of being detained and the treatment she faced that she is now back in her home country. >> usually a lot of physical as well as mental trauma.
▶ 1:32:02Mr. Schwartz: But also stories of families ripped apart, people being flown to different parts of the country, to texas, when they are finally determined not to merit incarceration in terms of I.c.e. And cbp's enforcement priorities, they are released, but they are not given the wherewithal to return home. This is not coming from me.
▶ 1:32:27Mr. Schwartz: You have federal court cases, federal judge menendez, another federal judge whose name escapes me, I think it was federal judge schlitz, who issued these opinions and with evidence, you have human rights organizations there.
▶ 1:32:44Sen. Padilla: Sorry to interrupt for a second. I know you have a ton to share but I want to make sure the committee benefits from your expertise, your experience in research. How easy is it to become a refugee?
▶ 1:32:56Mr. Schwartz: My goodness. First of all refugees do not volunteer to be refugees. They are referred. The U.S. developed a system over many years in which referrals come from the u.n. High commissioner for refugees.
▶ 1:33:11Sen. Padilla: And is the refugee someone seeking, applying? Do they control which administration reviews their application?
▶ 1:33:20Mr. Schwartz: They do not and the vetting system has become more and more arduous over the years. There is no person traveling to the U.S. who goes through a more thorough vetting overseas interviews, biometric screening, and for countries in conflict, not just somalia, but for countries in conflict, another level of vetting because people understand when you're in a
▶ 1:33:51Mr. Schwartz: Country of conflict, there are various factions and there are concerns that U.S. security has to take account of, which the united states has.
▶ 1:34:00Sen. Padilla: Thank you. I want to ask Ms. gambler a question, a yes or no question. Is the gao currently assessing whether the speedy processing of south african afrikaner's is meeting the same standard laid out in the gao's fraud risk framework?
▶ 1:34:17Ms. Gambler: Thank you, ranking member padilla. No, we do not have current work assessing those processes.
▶ 1:34:24Sen. Padilla: That is very telling. I'm hoping there will be another round of question but I will end with this one, back to Mr. schwartz. As we heard in the opening statement from the majority of witnesses, they seem to be implying immigration officers and professionals and adjudicators don't have the ability to do the biometric checks and other key elements of vetting and reviewing.
▶ 1:34:54Sen. Padilla: Would you agree with that or how would you respond?
▶ 1:34:56Mr. Schwartz: The refugee admissions context with which I'm most familiar, the amount of resources, by the advent of the trump administration included in that task and the majority of somalis in the U.S. have come in as refugees initially, I think the efforts were serious, credible and defensible, but I think we can always devote more resources to addressing those issues of course.
▶ 1:35:23Sen. Padilla: Thank you.
▶ 1:35:24Chair Cornyn: Senator kennedy.
▶ 1:35:28Sen. Kennedy: Thank you, Mr. chairman. Professor schwartz, you are a professor at the university of the soda.
▶ 1:35:37Mr. Schwartz: Yes.
▶ 1:35:39Sen. Kennedy: A beautiful state, by the way.
▶ 1:35:42Mr. Schwartz: It is a wonderful state.
▶ 1:35:45Sen. Kennedy: Some people in your beautiful state went to your state medicaid department and said, we want some taxpayer money, some being state taxpayer money and some being federal taxpayer money, to feed the poor.
▶ 1:36:10Sen. Kennedy: And these they did that got the money. Then they stole it. But to help cover their tracks -- before I go there, do you think those people should be prosecuted?
▶ 1:36:29Mr. Schwartz: I think if there is reason to pursue prosecution, of course they should be prosecuted.
▶ 1:36:37Sen. Kennedy: Do you think ethnicity should matter?
▶ 1:36:40Mr. Schwartz: The ethnicity of these people should not matter, not a bit.
▶ 1:36:45Sen. Kennedy: Some of these thieves also went to some restaurants and said, I need a fictitious invoice that you fed 100 people. You are not going to feed 100 people, you're just going to help me steal the money and I will kick axum of the money to you. -- kick back of the money to you. Do you think the restaurant thieves should be prosecuted?
▶ 1:37:13Mr. Schwartz: If they have committed crimes, they should be prosecuted regardless of their ethnicity.
▶ 1:37:19Sen. Kennedy: You had some other people in minnesota who had a different scam. They went to the medicaid department and said, I need state taxpayer money and federal taxpayer money to provide services to autistic children.
▶ 1:37:40Sen. Kennedy: And they got the money and then to maximize the fruits of their theft -- well first, do you think those people --
▶ 1:37:53Mr. Schwartz: Same answer to the question.
▶ 1:37:55Sen. Kennedy: In order to generate more money they can steal, they went to some families and said, do you have children? Some of the families said, yeah we have kids. The thieves said, are your children autistic? They said no. The thieves said, would you agree to sign paperwork to say they are autistic, if we kickback to use some of the money?
▶ 1:38:27Sen. Kennedy: Do you think those families should be prosecuted?
▶ 1:38:28Mr. Schwartz: Same answer.
▶ 1:38:30Sen. Kennedy: And you don't think their ethnicity should matter?
▶ 1:38:33Mr. Schwartz: Not a bit.
▶ 1:38:36Sen. Kennedy: Mr. hankinson, did I understand you to say you have studied immigrant, um, communities throughout the united states in terms of fraud levels on social services?
▶ 1:39:00Mr. Hankinson: Not specifically, no. I have done visa interviews in many countries, tens of thousands of them, and looked at reports on fraud levels.
▶ 1:39:09Sen. Kennedy: I misunderstood you, sorry, it has been a long day. Mr. byer?
▶ 1:39:18Mr. Bier: It is Mr. bier.
▶ 1:39:22Sen. Kennedy: I like "beer" better. [laughter]
▶ 1:39:29Mr. Bier: Most people do.
▶ 1:39:31Sen. Kennedy: You said some folks who came to our country and are trying to get status to stay have applied to the department of health, of dhs, and they have paid money and dhs is doing nothing?
▶ 1:39:48Mr. Bier: That is right, they are sitting on their applications not processing them.
▶ 1:39:53Sen. Kennedy: That is a pretty bold statement. I'm not saying you're wrong, I don't know. How money people are we talking about?
▶ 1:40:00Mr. Bier: About half of the immigrant flow right now, 90 countries are affected by the state department band.
▶ 1:40:07Sen. Kennedy: How many people?
▶ 1:40:08Mr. Bier: At least 300,000 abroad and at least twice that in the U.S.
▶ 1:40:13Sen. Kennedy: 300,000 folks have gone to dhs to seek some kind of permanent status or semipermanent status to stay and they paid money to dhs and dhs has done nothing?
▶ 1:40:30Mr. Bier: That is right. They are sitting on their applications and putting them in the trash.
▶ 1:40:36Sen. Kennedy: Who at dhs is doing this?
▶ 1:40:38Mr. Bier: Joseph edlow, he is in charge of this and came up with the policy.
▶ 1:40:43Sen. Kennedy: Who is he?
▶ 1:40:44Mr. Bier: He is the head of uscis. Joseph edlow is the head of uscis. He came up with this policy.
▶ 1:40:52Sen. Kennedy: Slow down, you have had too much coffee. [laughter] he is at dhs?
▶ 1:40:56Mr. Bier: I am just from new jersey.
▶ 1:40:59Sen. Kennedy: I understand, red state, too. ? Who does he report to?
▶ 1:41:05Mr. Bier: Secretary noem of course.
▶ 1:41:08Sen. Kennedy: Does secretary noem know?
▶ 1:41:11Mr. Bier: I don't know what secretary noem knows but she is aware of the general tenor of the administration.
▶ 1:41:18Mr. Bier: What is his name --
▶ 1:41:20Sen. Kennedy: What is his name?
▶ 1:41:22Mr. Bier: Joseph edlow.
▶ 1:41:23Sen. Kennedy: Who was his boss?
▶ 1:41:25Mr. Bier: Secretary noem.
▶ 1:41:27Sen. Kennedy: You can document this?
▶ 1:41:29Mr. Bier: Absolutely, they said they put out a memorandum they are not prosecuting these people -- they are not processing these people. And secretary rubio is involved.
▶ 1:41:41Sen. Kennedy: Can you send me that memo? I went way over.
▶ 1:41:45Chair Cornyn: I'm informed uscis is slowing adjudication because of the huge backlog and lack of vetting of these migrants during the biden administration, is the reason we have been given.
▶ 1:41:58Sen. Kennedy: I don't know, I just heard Mr. bier, and I'm not saying if he is right or wrong, those are pretty bold allegations, that they are taking the money and are not doing anything. I just want to know if it is true or not.
▶ 1:42:13Chair Cornyn: They are making sure that these people are vetted so we don't end up with people like the national guards woman here in washington, D.C. that was killed by an african --
▶ 1:42:25Sen. Kennedy: I don't have a problem with vetting, I just want to know if what the witness is saying is true.
▶ 1:42:31Mr. Bier: They are not adjudicating.
▶ 1:42:34Chair Cornyn: Senator klobuchar.
▶ 1:42:36Sen. Klobuchar: Thank you. I believe people who break the law have to go to jail and people who steal taxpayer money have to go to jail and we need to root out fraud in every state but I have to say as someone who prosecuted fraud cases for eight years, the person who recommended andy lugar who did such a tremendous job in exposing this fraud as the U.S.
▶ 1:43:03Sen. Klobuchar: Attorney for the state of minnesota and charged 75 cases as the person who recommended todd blanche -- recommended to todd blanche he put in joe thompson as the acting U.S.
▶ 1:43:19Sen. Klobuchar: Attorney, a specific ask I made, and then he did it because joe thompson was the one that led these fraud cases in minnesota come as a person who actually called the justice department years ago and asked for more resources for the minnesota U.S. attorney's office so they would go after these cases, the saddest thing that has happened besides 3000 I.c.e.
▶ 1:43:42Sen. Klobuchar: Agents landing on the streets of our town is, we have now lost the 14 assistant U.S. attorneys that were taking on these fraud cases. They left because they were asked by all news accounts to investigate renée good, one of two of three fatalities in minneapolis in january, two of three committed by I.c.e.
▶ 1:44:11Sen. Klobuchar: Agents are border patrol. They were asked to investigate her wife and they did not feel that was ethical and they left. This is incredible talent to investigate fraud that left that U.S. attorney's office so that is something if we are going to go after fraud, losing that talent is a huge problem. I will start with you, Mr. bier of cato.
▶ 1:44:40Sen. Klobuchar: You have a passion for going after the fraud but also for understanding what this metro surge has been about. You wrote benefits fraud is a serious issue and whoever commits it should be held accountable, but spending billions on operations like metro surge will increase the deficit rather than invest in better systems and investigations to control benefits fraud.
▶ 1:45:05Sen. Klobuchar: I agree as we have seen in minnesota, losing that talent, losing the work that has to be done and should be done on a bipartisan basis is such a problem. Can you explain'congress decision to spend $70 billion on I.c.e., making its budget bigger than the fbi, has led to what is going on in minnesota and ironically cut back on the fraud prosecutions?
▶ 1:45:29Mr. Bier: Absolutely. We are pulling people and resources away from criminal law enforcement. I.c.e. Is recruiting people from the fbi and diverted 2600 individuals but are also hiring people away from local police as well as federal law enforcement into the mass deportation effort which is not targeted towards criminals, not targeted toward fraudsters, it is targeted towards the people living their lives peacefully in the U.S.
▶ 1:45:57Mr. Bier: And contributing to their communities.
▶ 1:46:01Sen. Klobuchar: Thank you. We know the surge has huge costs. The minneapolis director estimates the city is losing $10 to $20 million per week and it is costing $18 million per week, the taxpayers of this country, the I.c.e. Agents that are there, for all the hotels, the extra hours of police, the jail time. You explain what is really happening with the numbers of support.
▶ 1:46:34Sen. Klobuchar: I support going after violent offenders but this is costing huge amounts of money for the people in minnesota and across the nation. Can you discuss the administration's actions and how they are hurting our economy and costing taxpayers?
▶ 1:46:46Mr. Bier: Like I said in my prepared remarks, in minnesota the immigrant population has reduced deficits at the federal, state and local level by almost $140 billion over the last 30 years. Even if you look at the illegal immigration population nationwide, $1.7 trillion reduction in deficits over the last 30 years.
▶ 1:47:12Mr. Bier: It is because these people work, because they are increasing economic activity, because they are providing goods and services to us as americans that we have these positive economic effects.
▶ 1:47:23Sen. Klobuchar: Thank you. Ms. gambler, the data analysis from firm up him identified widespread vulnerabilities in the state's medicaid program recently that allowed questionable billing to go undetected. Can you discuss what gao recommends to states? You can do it in writing later as well. To strengthen these programs. Clearly so much has to be done in minnesota on how these grants were allowed and then how they were monitored afterward.
▶ 1:47:56Sen. Klobuchar: I wish that is what we were focusing on instead of indicting an entire population group which includes police officers, firefighters, doctors, nurses. Please answer, thanks.
▶ 1:48:06Ms. Gambler: I will answer briefly and happy to provide more information afterward. Gao has issued a fraud risk framework that lays out leading practices agencies should take upfront, prevents, detect, identify and address and mitigate fraud risks in federal programs.
▶ 1:48:29Ms. Gambler: Those leading practices are helpful for agencies to adopt practices relating to conducting fraud risk assessments, making sure they have a strategy in place and making sure they are targeting resources and antifraud activities to areas of greatest risk. Those types of leading practices help an agency have in place a process for managing fraud risks at a strategic level.
▶ 1:48:58Chair Cornyn: Senator moody.
▶ 1:49:02Sen. Moody: Thank you for holding this hearing in thank you to the witnesses. One reason this is so important is we keep seeing fraud in the news every single day and I want to thank people in the trump administration working hard to make sure we are accountable to taxpayers.
▶ 1:49:18Sen. Moody: I know that many are examining what happened over the last administration at least in terms of immigration and how taking in , conservative number is 11 million, but some say up to 20 million in a short amount of time, many unvetted, what that can do and how can dust how that contacts a nation and challenge an existing taxpayer base. I think that is why we are here today.
▶ 1:49:49Sen. Moody: It was disheartening for me to hear sides on the other side of the aisle who questioned why we would even have this hearing, because quote unquote fraud has been going on for decades. I just got here to the senate, I'm the newest member and I think this fraud has been going on for decades, we should examine exactly why, even if it is uncomfortable to talk about why, even if it happened under republican or democrat administrations.
▶ 1:50:16Sen. Moody: How did we get to a point were some estimates 10% of our outlay is going to fraud, that actors and criminals? When americans are working so hard to foot the bill. And we are putting our country into debt every single year and 10% of that is going to bad actors. I'm about to go over to the white house with my great colleague senator kennedy talk about a bill signed to stop payments going to dead people. That is a good start I would say.
▶ 1:50:45Sen. Moody: But hey, I think having a hearing is a great start. There are not a lot of know nothings in washington, people know a lot of stuff. There are a lot of do nothings. We have got to start acting like it is incumbent upon us to examine how we got here and fix our laws. That is why you're here today, why we are all here today. Everyone would say we have a problem.
▶ 1:51:16Sen. Moody: Some might say and I think I heard immigration reduces the deficit them I think there is testimony to the other side of that. Regardless we have to figure out why in minnesota there was childcare fraud, many from the somali community that totaled an estimate $9 billion. We need to examine when we are wasting and giving to criminals 9 cents.
▶ 1:51:46Sen. Moody: $9 billion, a good reason, good impetus to be here. I'm glad we are having this hearing today to figure out how we got here, talk about how to adjust our laws to fix it and move forward so we don't have fraud going on for the next decades into the future. I think that is what the american taxpayers, the people who sent us here would expect from us, at the very least. Mr. o'brien, appreciate you being here today.
▶ 1:52:12Sen. Moody: I read your testimony and you mentioned the net fiscal cost of illegal immigration to U.S. taxpayers was about $150.7 billion annually, is that correct?
▶ 1:52:24Mr. O'Brien: That is correct.
▶ 1:52:25Sen. Moody: Billion with a b.
▶ 1:52:29Mr. O'Brien: Billion with a b.
▶ 1:52:32Sen. Moody: Tens of billions of dollars more than the entire state budget of florida, my home state. We are the third largest state. We have about 23 million people. So again your testimony is, the net fiscal cost of illegal immigration to U.S. taxpayers is more than the entire budget for the state of florida?
▶ 1:52:54Mr. O'Brien: Yes, that is correct.
▶ 1:52:56Sen. Moody: If I'm not mistaken there are only a few federal agencies, may be the department of defense, maybe hhs, some of the mandatory health care spending, that have budgets in excess of $150 billion.
▶ 1:53:12Mr. O'Brien: That sounds accurate.
▶ 1:53:14Sen. Moody: Most have less than $150 billion budget yet we give that over as a result of illegal immigration, american taxpayers pay that every year?
▶ 1:53:27Mr. O'Brien: Yes.
▶ 1:53:28Sen. Moody: Can you walk through that a little more in detail, how you estimated that?
▶ 1:53:34Mr. O'Brien: Sure, what we took a look out was the cost from illegal aliens applying for benefits they were not entitled to, we looked at the criminal justice costs, we looked at the immigration enforcement costs, we looked at the state costs, particularly in programs where federal money the states distribute, come prints of analysis taking into account where we can find significant connection between immigration
▶ 1:54:08Mr. O'Brien: -- illegal immigration in taxpayer dollars.
▶ 1:54:10Sen. Moody: Do believe working together across the aisle we can tweak and reform our laws to reduce that cost and burden on the american taxpayer?
▶ 1:54:20Mr. O'Brien: Yes and there are things in place that would reduce a significant amount like the save and e-verify systems if mandatory would eliminate 95% of the problems with benefits and unlawful employment.
▶ 1:54:35Chair Cornyn: Senator hirono.
▶ 1:54:38Sen. Hirono: Thank you, Mr. chairman. I believe senator durbin requested -- thank you, he will let me go. There is fraud in so many areas of life. There is tax fraud, welfare fraud, medicare fraud, medicaid fraud, a lot of fraud, correct?
▶ 1:55:08Sen. Hirono: Yes I guess we can focus on immigration fraud which is part of what this hearing is about but maybe Mr. bier since you have research in this area, with all of this massive fraud that occurs, especially I would say in the medicaid-medicare space, do think immigration fraud constitutes the majority of fraud in our country?
▶ 1:55:33Sen. Hirono: >> I have no way to possibly answer that question I would say if someone is committing fraud to come to the united states, it is not something that will be quantified in the same way as stealing from medicaid. They are different measures. We looked at the monetary value, 95% of all the monetary losses to the government from government benefits fraud is by U.S. citizens, not noncitizens.
▶ 1:56:04Sen. Hirono: Noncitizens on a per capita basis is 30% less likely.
▶ 1:56:07Sen. Hirono: So I think other areas of fraud I cited, these are massive frauds being committed they ought to be investigated and prosecuted but much of the fraud in our country is perpetrated by that this is a is perpetrated by that this is e totally intent on deporting as many immigrants as possible. We have about 11 million undocumented persons.
▶ 1:56:37Sen. Hirono: How this regime is supposed to be deporting all these people is really beyond me but nonetheless we have steve miller who says, no, I want you to arrest at least 3000. Get at least 3000 people into our detention facilities, first $40 billion, thanks to the big, ugly bill. You have all these resources including the doj.
▶ 1:57:03Sen. Hirono: Just about every department that has anything to do with law enforcement is being directed to immigration enforcement. So we have a regime that wants to deport people. We have this hearing focusing on fraud being committed by a group of somalis.
▶ 1:57:25Sen. Hirono: I tell you, I listen to the depiction of somalis, as a country where they seem to be producing all these people who are prone to fraud. I want to have a really short response from the professor. When you sat here listening to the portrayal of somalis as fraud-prone and having worked in a community with a lot of somali s, does this portrayal of a whole people, as a shock to you?
▶ 1:57:53Mr. Schwartz: It comes as a huge disappointment.
▶ 1:57:58Sen. Hirono: Not only that did it strike you as being fair?
▶ 1:58:01Mr. Schwartz: It is not fair, the framing of this on top of the president -- the framing of this hearing is wrong. There is no evidence that somali s are responsible for a greater degree of illegality than any other population.
▶ 1:58:17Sen. Hirono: Mr. bier, you talked about reducing our deficit. I would say the majority of the 11 million undocumented people here, what are they doing? They are working, buying stuff, going to our grocery stores and paying taxes. They even pay social security taxes, many of them, without ever hoping for any kind of payment from social security. So they are part of our community.
▶ 1:58:45Sen. Hirono: That is why we have a segment saying, our produce is dying literally in the fields and on the vines. I don't know why we are sitting here focusing on a community just trying to make a life for itself.
▶ 1:59:04Sen. Hirono: Rather than focusing on all the fraud going on and in these massive areas of our lives, sitting here with yet another hearing, I don't know how many more hearings we will have focusing on the somalis, but is all in the service of coming up with a way for our regime to justify going after a group of people. And since when do I.c.e.
▶ 1:59:26Sen. Hirono: Agents and border patrol see as their mission beating up american citizens, murdering them, dragging them out of cars? That is their mission and their jobs?
▶ 1:59:43Mr. Bier: It is too hard to find fraudsters, that is the problem. They aren't everywhere on every street corners so they are out harassing random people. That is the fundamental problem. There aren't actually that many immigrant criminals so what are they doing? They harassing us.
▶ 2:00:00Sen. Hirono: I heard the depiction that is part of the mission, since when. Thank you. >> thank you Mr. chairman, I appreciate you holding this hearing to discuss the staggering levels of fraud we have seen in minnesota but I believe it is the tip of the iceberg.
▶ 2:00:19Sen. Hirono: We heard my colleague from florida talk about that it is estimated that maybe 10% of what we spend every year ultimately is frauded in some way shape or form in the american taxpayer deserves better. When our debt climbs by the trillions at this point and we are putting that debt on the backs of our children and our children's children, we have an obligation to ask questions and that is what we are doing here today.
▶ 2:00:50Sen. Hirono: I want to start with Mr. hankinson. I want to begin by you sir for years as a foreign service officer at the state department, is that correct?
▶ 2:01:01Mr. Hankinson: Yes.
▶ 2:01:02Sen. Britt: Your role adjudicating visa cases and investigating fraud, you have had been on the front lines of this so to speak. At recent dhs inspector reported during the biden harris administration the state department issued more than 26 million nonimmigrant visas to about 15 million people and of those 15 million the state department said they waived interviews and fingerprinting for more than 8 million of those
▶ 2:01:33Sen. Britt: People. That same report highlighted cbp were not notified that those foreign nationals had not been fully screened by the state department. Not only does that open our nation up for grave national security risks but by waiving those interview and fingerprint requirements they make it dramatically easier for foreign individuals to fraudulently obtain visas.
▶ 2:02:01Sen. Britt: My question is, based on your experience, how does it work when you don't fully vet individuals who are entering the U.S., how does that ultimately lead to fraud and how can future administrations make sure we are fully vetting and crossing every t and dotting every I? What is the end result?
▶ 2:02:26Mr. Hankinson: The idea of fully vetting is a myth. If you have a visa applicant from germany where they have excellent records and share them with us, you have their identity in documents that are trustworthy and you can trust they are who they say they are. If they don't have a record, they don't have a record. If you have an applicant from somalia or mali with much worse records you are less likely to have an accurate result.
▶ 2:02:53Mr. Hankinson: In some countries I have worked people of marriages is testified to only by villagers who are illiterate. Signed with a thumbprint that is not something you can rely on and often criminal records in places like afghanistan, everyone in the village knows but unless you go there to check you have no way of knowing.
▶ 2:03:15Sen. Britt: How can our system do better at preventing visa fraud in the future?
▶ 2:03:22Mr. Hankinson: If in doubt you don't issue, you want to know they are who they say they are and don't have a criminal record or in eligibility. If you can't be sure, don't issue them a documents.
▶ 2:03:33Sen. Britt: Mr. hankinson -- Mr. linderman, do have anything to add?
▶ 2:03:39Mr. Linderman: The state department keeps country by country fraud summaries on the encounters they meet in that country. This is an unclassified document in which you will find for some all you, nigeria, mexico, name the country, a collection, a deep dive into corrupt practices, fraudulent documents and other information with which they encounter fraud and this is a valuable tool so you can make
▶ 2:04:09Mr. Linderman: Intelligent judgments. Countries in which fraud practices are widespread, when those nationals come to our country it is only logical to bully and make cases, they may continue those practices. This is not a judgment based on race or ethnicity, it is based on facts and officers keep good records when there is doubt, visas should not be issued but there is a holistic approach.
▶ 2:04:41Mr. Linderman: We can turn to a foreign government in which it basically condones corrupt practices and say we will hold you responsible and we will stop adjudicating visas in your country until you clean up your own documents.
▶ 2:05:03Sen. Britt: We discussed the topic a lot the last couple weeks about sanctuary cities and it is my belief sanctuary city policies are draining america and we can keep law enforcement and american citizens safe by cooperation on state, local and federal level and that cooperation and I have long thought we should defund sanctuary cities.
▶ 2:05:34Sen. Britt: Obviously there was a public safety risk which I have just hit on but can you discuss how those same policies enable individuals to actually defraud american taxpayers?
▶ 2:05:47Mr. O'Brien: The whole point of sanctuary cities is for those jurisdictions to exempt themselves from federal immigration laws they don't like. So they become a major magnet for people understand -- trying to evade the law and commit fraud. Perhaps the thing not digested by the american public is, if you are here illegally, you have to commit fraud in order to accomplish anything in the U.S.
▶ 2:06:17Mr. O'Brien: Because you cannot work without appropriate documentation, you can't open a bank account or operate a motor vehicle. So all of these places, in refusing to cooperate with federal law enforcement, in order to remove immigration violators, make themselves preferred locations for committing fraud because they are magnets for people trying to evade enforcement by engaging in fraudulent activities.
▶ 2:06:41Sen. Britt: Thank you so much Mr. o'brien. I think we need to end sanctuary cities new.
▶ 2:06:47Chair Cornyn: Senator durbin. Mr. bier, I'm impressed by your analysis and presentation. I think all members of the panel for their presentation and I would like to follow up of the question or two. Big bold beautiful bill, the president's budget, approved 18,500 new agents, I.c.e. Agents, 10,000, 8500 cbp agents.
▶ 2:07:20Chair Cornyn: I believe secretary noem has identified their training period to be 47 days as a tribute to the president, the 47th president of the united states. When I talked to police chiefs and mayors back on they said you cannot prepare an officer for contact with the public in that short of a time. You have thoughts on the suspect -- on the subject?
▶ 2:07:45Mr. Bier: Absolutely. It is reprehensible that they are cutting back on training at a time they are asking officers to do things that even long experienced officers have not had to do, conduct random traffic stops, do crowd control, profiling people in the street, all of these things that were never done by immigration before is now being done is a mandatory policy.
▶ 2:08:11Mr. Bier: So there should be more training rather than less, when you're asking more from your officers.
▶ 2:08:16Sen. Durbin: So the question in my mind is, what are they going to do with all of these people as they are learning on-the-job with weapons in their hands, wearing masks so they can be identified? It is speculation and detention facilities, how many will there be, 9, 15?
▶ 2:08:44Sen. Durbin: Our bureau of prisons population is around 160,000. We have more people in jail than any country on earth. More people in jail than any country on earth. And now we will build detention facilities that house another 150,000? Visualize if you will the america they are designing for us in the future with those parameters.
▶ 2:09:07Mr. Bier: They are clearly not concerned about the welfare of the people they are arresting. They are detaining american citizens and putting them in these facilities and not giving them access to attorneys, not letting them make phone calls and they are often released without charges that does not make the wrong correct. Now you will have a huge bureaucracy of people pulling people off the street, shoveling them into warehouses where, they are essentially black boxes.
▶ 2:09:36Mr. Bier: Lawyers can't get in, there is no oversight, very little due process and the due process there is, they are constantly attacking and trying to remove it. You need greater oversight, greater protection, but they are not putting any of the money into oversight and accountability for these facilities.
▶ 2:09:54Sen. Durbin: The president has been clear about his goal. He says he is going after murderers, rapists, terrorists, criminally insane, childhood predators, the worst of the worst he says. How are they doing on that score?
▶ 2:10:09Mr. Bier: If you look at all the people they booked into these facilities, just 5% in the most recent available data had violent criminal convictions of any kind.
▶ 2:10:19Sen. Durbin: One out of 20? So you have 19 people that are not culpable, not liable, not criminally responsible in any way, and they are the ones being swept up in this detention.
▶ 2:10:34Mr. Bier: Even more tellingly, the administration itself assigns a threat level to each detainee. We can look at the data how they categorize these people. Just 8% are categorized at the highest threat level and 73% are not given a threat level at all, deemed not a threat. So you look at what they are saying in their own administrative records.
▶ 2:11:01Mr. Bier: They don't believe these people are threats either and they don't care because it is not about public safety, it is about the population purge, by all means necessary. It does not matter if it makes us poor, does not matter if it takes away our rights, does not matter if it harms you, takes your wife and sends her to a foreign country.
▶ 2:11:22Sen. Durbin: I have a few seconds left. The case of martinez in october, shot on the streets of chicago. A teacher at a montessori school, she was shot in her car five times and survived, god knows how. She survived and what happened to the charges against her? Eight weeks later, dropped, all charges.
▶ 2:11:46Sen. Durbin: Could be because the vehicle she supposedly ran had been moved from chicago to maine to be repainted so there was no evidence at her trial. To think what happened to this 30-year-old woman's life, born and raised in chicago, U.S. citizen, shot by I.c.e. Agents on the streets of chicago.
▶ 2:12:05Mr. Bier: And they bragged about it.
▶ 2:12:07Sen. Durbin: They bragged about it. He said I got five bullets in 7 holes. He was very proud of himself.
▶ 2:12:16Chair Cornyn: Senator cruz. >> thank you for holding this hearing. It is amazing democrats never seem to focus on innocent victims who were shot and killed by illegal aliens that their policies were led into this country, they never seem to say names like jocelyn dungarees in my hometown of houston who was raped and murdered, a young girl, by two venezuelan gang members that joe biden had in custody and released and they came to houston to rape and
▶ 2:12:46Chair Cornyn: Murder that beautiful little girl. They never mentioned lake and riley, a nursing student, beautiful young woman, murdered by an illegal alien the democrats released. They never mentioned kate steinle, 28 years old in california, shot on a pier by an illegal alien that had been released over and over and over again. We have had her father testified before this committee.
▶ 2:13:13Chair Cornyn: He held her head in his hands as she died in his last words were, help me daddy. Yet for my democratic colleagues it seems there is no limit to how many americans can be murdered by illegal aliens and yet they simply don't care, they still support open borders and releasing murderers and releasing violent criminals.
▶ 2:13:37Chair Cornyn: We are here today because of the democrats open border policies and the damage it has done to this country, but we are also here today because minnesota's welfare system has been treated like an open atm and the taxpayers are the ones getting robbed. Ms. gambler, gao reported the federal government loses hundreds of millions of dollars each year to fraud and improper payments, much of it in public benefit programs, correct?
▶ 2:14:03Ms. Gambler: Yes, gao has reported both on estimates of federal government losses due to fraud as well as estimates of improper payments governmentwide.
▶ 2:14:15Sen. Cruz: You may recall the infamous leering center, whose blacked out windows and childless facilities became emblematic of the public programs fraud currently plaguing minnesota. Mr. o'brien, when investigators and fraud this obvious, does it usually represent a single isolated bad actor, where the visible tip of a much larger scheme?
▶ 2:14:43Mr. O'Brien: The visible tip of a much larger scheme. Fraud does not occur in a vacuum.
▶ 2:14:50Sen. Cruz: In that instance the fraud was so blatant the owners of the business could not be bothered to spell the organization's name correctly on the public signage. Does fraud of that magnitude persists because it is difficult to detect or because oversight and enforcement breakdown?
▶ 2:15:08Mr. O'Brien: It tends to persist because oversight and enforcement breakdown and it tends to spread geometrically.
▶ 2:15:15Sen. Cruz: The somali fraud problem minnesota is not confined to childcare centers. They suspect half of the more than $18 billion spent since 2018 on 14 different minnesota well -- welfare programs may prove to be fraudulent. To put that into perspective the amount of fraud if confirmed may approach the entire gdp of the nation of somalia. Mr.
▶ 2:15:44Sen. Cruz: Hankinson, once funds are laundered and sent overseas to fragile or corrupt jurisdictions is there any realistic prospect of recovering them?
▶ 2:15:54Mr. Hankinson: Only if they come back and spend them.
▶ 2:15:57Sen. Cruz: In many respects minneapolis has become the mogadishu of the midwest. As the subcommittee on the federal courts oversight agency action in federal rights I'm proud to have held a hearing last week on the issue of fraud within the minnesota somali community and beyond. But the problem of fraud does not stop there and neither does our inquiry. Our shared civic culture rest on something uniquely american, a respect for public comments.
▶ 2:16:27Sen. Cruz: It is clear though that though minnesota opens its doors in the early 1990's to a massive number of somali immigrants that kindness was not reciprocated. Instead it was exploited again and again and again and that is unacceptable. Mr. bier, can any welfare system long survive if large-scale fraud is excused and explained away rather than confronted?
▶ 2:16:54Mr. Bier: No.
▶ 2:16:56Sen. Cruz: It would be entirely naïve to assume fraud of this magnitude simply stop that public program frauds. I encourage you to examine the graph behind me. What do you notice about the usage of public programs among minnesota's somali immigrant population? 81% of somali households in minnesota receive some form of welfare compared to 21% of non-somali households.
▶ 2:17:27Sen. Cruz: 51% receive food stamps compared to 7% of non-somali households. 73% enrolled in medicaid compared to 18% of non-somali households and 27% received cash assistance compared to 6% of non-somali households.
▶ 2:17:42Sen. Cruz: My question to the panel, my final question, is importing vast numbers of people from an impoverished nation, putting the majority of them on public welfare for years and decades at a time, and then turning a blind eye while they steal billions of dollars from the taxpayers, is that helping america or hurting america? Each of you has a chance to answer.
▶ 2:18:07Ms. Gambler: Yes, thank you senator. I would say your question speaks to the work gao has done as it relates to leading practices for managing fraud risk. We have put out a framework for agencies that can help them better put in place processes and controls upfront to prevent fraud risks and also have policies and practices in place to tailor their antifraud
▶ 2:18:38Ms. Gambler: Activities and antifraud approaches. >> I believe in the melting pot. I'm an immigrant. But to melt you need heat, and you need to obey laws.
▶ 2:18:47Sen. Cruz: Is that helping or hurting america? >> if we ignore fraud we are hurting america of course.
▶ 2:18:54Mr. Linderman: It is not in the U.S. national interest, senator and we know somalia is a high fraud country. To bring people from that country into our systems is not on the U.S. national interest.
▶ 2:19:06Mr. O'Brien: I believe milton friedman said you could have a welfare state or open borders but you can have both.
▶ 2:19:14Mr. Bier: We can build a wall around the welfare state and that would be a lot better for taxpayers than building a wall and keeping out illegal immigrants--
▶ 2:19:23Sen. Cruz: Is this helping or hurting america?
▶ 2:19:26Mr. Bier: Certainly the welfare state is a problem, but -- Sen. cruz: Mr. schwartz.
▶ 2:19:33Mr. Schwartz: It is not unusual for immigrant populations to have a high degree of assistance or early after their arrival, but we are already seeing statistics that the net benefit economically of somali presence in the U.S. far outweighs the costs -- Sen. cruz: this massive welfare usages helping america and the fraud is helping america?
▶ 2:19:54Mr. Schwartz: Not the fraud, we need to go after the fraud, which makes more inexplicable the trump administration's decision to take actions that have decimated the U.S. attorney's office in minnesota. I can't understand it, can you?
▶ 2:20:09Sen. Cruz: A simple question, is this helping america or hurting america?
▶ 2:20:13Mr. Schwartz: The somali presence in america is helping america.
▶ 2:20:17Sen. Cruz: For the taxpayers who had $9 billion stolen from them, sir, minnesota taxpayers who had $9 billion stolen from them, it has not helped them in american taxpayers supporting an independent population here for one reason, to vote democrat and give money to elected democrats and if it robs american taxpayers and endangers security for democrat colleagues that is a perfectly except a bowl trade-off.
▶ 2:20:43Mr. Schwartz: Speaking loudly does not make it true, it just doesn't.
▶ 2:20:48Sen. Cruz: Your time is expired, Mr. schwartz.
▶ 2:20:51Chair Cornyn: Mr. linderman and Mr. hankinson, I want you to respond to Mr. bier's criticism of slowing the flow of adjudications because of the lack of vetting of migrants during the biden administration.
▶ 2:21:12Chair Cornyn: Do you think additional vetting is appropriate in slowing the adjudications by uscis is a good idea or a bad idea in order to determine what the background is of these individuals? >> Mr.
▶ 2:21:25Chair Cornyn: Chairman it is a good idea to slow any visa process and be sure when we are issuing a document, refugee, whatever the status, that admits of foreign national into our country, the state department at dhs has to be clear that person is someone we know who he is or she is before we admit them into the country. Otherwise why are we there?
▶ 2:21:51Chair Cornyn: Mr. hankinson?
▶ 2:21:54Mr. Hankinson: Everyone deserves [indiscernible] in their case but letting in an untold number of many millions of people under parole, released at the border and having so many pending asylum cases I think it is a good idea to pause and figure out exactly where we are and may be revised systems to make sure so many people don't slip through.
▶ 2:22:15Chair Cornyn: Mr. o'brien, my final questions are few. One of the things that makes me crazy is when I see in the media people talk about the migrants that are here in the country and said, well, they haven't committed any crimes, but you made clear that you can't be here in the united states illegally without committing crimes, whether identity theft, failure to have insurance, driving a car, you name it.
▶ 2:22:47Chair Cornyn: But of course when you enter the country without authorization that is a crime, is it not?
▶ 2:22:51Mr. O'Brien: It is, improper entry by an alien-ism misdemeanor on the first offense and a felony on subsequent offenses.
▶ 2:23:02Chair Cornyn: You made the point correct in my view that after they get here you cannot claim to be a perfectly law-abiding individual if you enter the country illegally because you can't get access to public benefits, you can't drive a vehicle, and the like. Thank you for responding to that.
▶ 2:23:28Chair Cornyn: Earlier I made part of the record a document we got here from the department of justice that said last year alone, 485, 000 final orders of removal. It is really interesting because our democratic colleagues have demanded in order to reopen the appropriations process for the department of homeland security that I.c.e.
▶ 2:23:50Chair Cornyn: Agents be required to get court orders in order to detain these individuals, but the fact of it is, at least last year, 485,000 have already received all the process they are due under the law, isn't that correct?
▶ 2:24:11Mr. O'Brien: That is correct, they received a final order of removal from an immigration judge and the argument about warrens is a red herring because federal district court judges do not have authority to issue a civil war and for the arrest of a person who has undergone the removal process.
▶ 2:24:27Chair Cornyn: That is an important point, this is a criminal process, not civil?
▶ 2:24:32Mr. O'Brien: That is correct.
▶ 2:24:34Chair Cornyn: The idea of going back to court to get another order on top of the order defied by the immigrant makes no sense.
▶ 2:24:43Mr. O'Brien: It makes no sense whatsoever. We spend an inordinate amount of money on the immigration court and then to claim the immigration court has authority to remove someone from the U.S. but on the strength of that order I.c.e. Can't remove them from their apartment is absurd.
▶ 2:25:00Chair Cornyn: Finally, senator britt touched on this with you. In texas we don't have the problems they are having in minnesota, getting local law enforcement to cooperate with I.c.e. Issues a detainer on someone is in a county jail and then is turned over to federal authorities without I.c.e.
▶ 2:25:24Chair Cornyn: Having to go and execute their administrative warrant in the streets, subject to harassment and interference by some of the individuals who unfortunately, including those who suffered loss of life for interfering with a federal law enforcement activity. If we did not have sanctuary jurisdictions like minneapolis and the state of minnesota, would that help?
▶ 2:25:54Mr. O'Brien: It would help massively. A large number of people engaged in criminal activity who are here unlawfully will encounter state or local police first and if state or local police make the presence of those individuals known to I.c.e., that means I.c.e. Has to expend a smaller effort to take that person into federal custody and subject them to the removal process. Or if they already have an order of removal to then physically remove them from the country.
▶ 2:26:23Chair Cornyn: Thank you to read senator padilla.
▶ 2:26:27Sen. Padilla: A few more questions, I will try to be brief before we close. Mr. bier, I saw your head nodding during the discussion of warrants. I'm understanding the issue of warrants is specifically to federal agents going into homes without a warrant, including homes of U.S. citizens, the practice of racial profiling, which has been sanctioned by the supreme court.
▶ 2:26:58Sen. Padilla: You want to add anything?
▶ 2:26:59Mr. Bier: Absolutely. What we are talking about is going to a judge to actually enter a home. How do we know it is the immigrant's home? We don't know that unless you present probable cause to a judge and determine that. You don't just rely on some individual I.c.e. Agent or federal agent. We saw what happened in minnesota when they went with their gut. They dragged a U.S.
▶ 2:27:27Mr. Bier: Citizen out of his home in front of his grandkids in his underwear, in the middle of winter. It is unbelievable what is happening.
▶ 2:27:37Sen. Padilla: A quick follow-up question, in response to chair cornyn's question you settle background vetting processes should be slowed down so we are sure who was trying to come into the country, something along those lines, did I hear that correctly?
▶ 2:27:56Mr. Linderman: What I meant to say, we should not speed up issuing for some abstract reason because the paperwork is pending or someone is--
▶ 2:28:06Sen. Padilla: I would imagine not speeding up should apply to south african afrikaners that the white house has given preferential treatment to, agree or disagree?
▶ 2:28:17Mr. Linderman: I would agree that anyone who comes in as a foreigner to our country --
▶ 2:28:22Sen. Padilla: What it also apply to those coming into the U.S. by purchasing a gold card the president has talked about?
▶ 2:28:28Mr. Linderman: If they are foreign nationals it would all be vetted.
▶ 2:28:32Sen. Padilla: A question for Ms. gambler. I asked you in the first round of questions if the process for afrikaners consideration was abiding by the standards and best practices of the gao. Has the gold card program the president has referenced a few times also implemented your recommendations?
▶ 2:28:57Ms. Gambler: Thank you ranking member, we have not looked at that proposal so we don't have insights to share related to that process. Certainly if that is something t certainly if that is something r office would be interested in a gao taking a look at, it is something we would be happy to follow up on.
▶ 2:29:18Sen. Padilla: That will be incredibly valuable for not just this committee, but for both sides of the aisle, for that matter. Talk about the gold card proposal, have you seen something in writing?
▶ 2:29:29Ms. Gambler: A gao has not been specifically reviewing that proposal.
▶ 2:29:35Sen. Padilla: I think that is it for questions. Closing statements, orwh closing statements, orw what?
▶ 2:29:42Chair Cornyn: I don't have a closing statement. If you have a closing statement, go ahead.
▶ 2:29:47Sen. Padilla: We have heard a lot today, I don't know where to begin. Sadly, as I repeated in my opening segments, we heard repeated claims about immigrant communities in supposed crimes on a massive scale. We heard what I fear is scapegoating attacked that I warned about in my opening remarks. First, just to set the record straight for folks in the audience and those watching from home of what sanctuary cities are and what sanctuary cities are not.
▶ 2:30:17Sen. Padilla: There is no city in america that the federal government cannot go in and enforce federal law. Period. A sanctuary jurisdiction, a state, a municipality is simply a choice that those local governments take to not dedicate local resources for the enforcement of federal law. That is the federal government's job. Some jurisdictions choose to, some do not.
▶ 2:30:48Sen. Padilla: Sanctuary policies are not unlawful, they're not unconstitutional. Second, the question about uscis processing because, entering into the record these very memos that were referenced in the conversation earlier today. Speaking --
▶ 2:31:03Chair Cornyn: Without objection.
▶ 2:31:05Sen. Padilla: Thank you speaking of uscis, senator kennedy isn't here anymore, but the director of uscis should be a name familiar to them because he was confirmed by the senate in july 2025 after having been considered by the senate judiciary committee, which he is a member of, prior to that.
▶ 2:31:29Sen. Padilla: Look, folks, what we did not hear from our colleagues on the other side of the aisle today was any serious discussion of the former widespread fraud being committed by united states citizens, starting all the way to the top with president trump. We have example after example after example. Fraud that by the numbers vastly outpaces anything tied to immigrant communities.
▶ 2:32:00Sen. Padilla: We said it before\ and we will say it again in closing, nobody condones fraud. When it happens, it should be investigated, and those responsible should be held accountable, as they are currently with existing laws. But if you want to truly look beyond the so-called tip of the iceberg, then demonizing entire communities for the actions of a few is not the answer. To that end, Mr.
▶ 2:32:26Sen. Padilla: Chairman, and when enter into the record statements from leading refugee resettlement and advocacy organizations detailing the harmful impacts of the indiscriminate arrests in minnesota into the record.
▶ 2:32:40Chair Cornyn: Without objection.
▶ 2:32:41Sen. Padilla: Thank you very much. In closing, two final things. A serious conversation about fraud would focus on strengthening oversight and improving enforcement, not the diversion of enforcement resources or by pushing career professionals involved in enforcement an investigation out, as the current administration is doing. We also want to make sure that systems that we already have are working as intended.
▶ 2:33:12Sen. Padilla: That's the conversation we should be having. But that's not what happened today. So I urge my colleagues on this committee to step away from the theatrics and the stereotypes and to engage in the real work on a bipartisan basis of identifying genuine vulnerabilities, of strengthening safeguards, and holding all bad actors accountable. Thank you.
▶ 2:33:37Chair Cornyn: The record will stay open for one week so that members can submit questions for the record. I want to express my gratitude to all the witnesses for hanging in there with us and offering your expertise and answering our questions. Thank you very much. [captioning performed by the national captioning institute, which is responsible for its caption content and accuracy. Visit ncicap.org]