▶ 0:15:39Chair Capito: Ok, good morning everybody. I would like to call this hearing to order and I appreciate everybody being here. I would like to welcome our witnesses, secretary telle and general graham, I appreciate you being here, and I appreciate the back and forth we have had with your offices over the last several months. The purpose is to help the committee develop the next water resources development act. It is that time again.
▶ 0:16:12Chair Capito: That not only authorizes water resources studies and projects but sends -- but sets national apologies for the corps of engineers civil works program. Since 2014, we have kept to a biannual schedule of passing this bipartisan legislation and I look forward to continuing that track record today. Earlier this year, where there is I should say. Ranking member whitehouse and I sent a letter soliciting their requests.
▶ 0:16:40Chair Capito: I am pleased to say that we received a significant number of requests, more than last time, which demonstrates the strong interest and necessity of the ledges duration. To helps kickstart the process this will allow the committee to learn more about the recently announced priorities, and examine the limitations and discuss on one projects and programs begin.
▶ 0:17:05Chair Capito: I appreciate you and abroad -- applaud your willingness to examine what changes need to be made to allow better delivered water resources solution with our nonfederal partners. I look forward to learning more about the changes. The critical work across navigation, flood risk management and ecosystem restoration missions.
▶ 0:17:25Chair Capito: This protects the lives and livelihoods of millions of americans and facilitates our country and internationally I visited the winfield lockes and dams, so it is nothing like getting eyes on a project. It is important that this supports the timely and efficient delivery of water resources while continuing to meet national missions.
▶ 0:17:53Chair Capito: Flexibility is key to ensure that the court can identify and carried out solutions tailored to the need of each community. We must also continue to preserve nonfederal partners and its partners -- sponsors in this process. To contact -- to achieve this goal, we will advance studies and projects without forcing a one-size-fits-all solution. In september I stress the importance of the timely implementation of 2024 and the prior ones consistent with congressional intent.
▶ 0:18:24Chair Capito: Throughout your two decades as a senator staffer and a confirmation process, we have heard how important the work and policies enacted are to communities across the country. Now that you have had more time on the job I look forward to an update on the implementation efforts. I want to acknowledge and state -- and thank the staff for their ongoing efforts to provide the committee with technical assistance on requests separately -- that we received from senate colleagues.
▶ 0:18:52Chair Capito: It is a vital part of our process and we greatly appreciate timely responses from the board. The work has and will continue to make a difference in communities and that is certainly true in west virginia. The corps is actively working on a number of studies and projects important to my home state. Excuse me.
▶ 0:19:13Chair Capito: The fifth and final stage of the bluefield dam safety assurance megaproject is a huge project and the city continues to make significant progress. Once completed it will protect more than 150,000 people and $20 billion worth of infrastructure. I am also pleased that work on the lower mud river flood risk management project where the secretary joined us and resume this summer. Unfortunately, there is more work to be done.
▶ 0:19:43Chair Capito: West virginia continues to experience devastating flooding. I am thankful to the corps and the huntington district on the progress they are making on feasibility studies exploring solutions to manage flood risk in those areas. I look forward to making sure that the next bill contains the necessary authorizations and authorities for the corps to carry out this important work and I thank the witnesses for being here today. Our ranking member is not here.
▶ 0:20:13Chair Capito: Here is the little sign and I will put it here. He is not here virtually and he is in rhode island where he is snowed in with 37 inches of snow. While we do not typically -- that sounds like nothing in north dakota. It sounds plenty. While we typically do not provide for virtual participation, this is an extraordinary circumstance for an extraordinary person. We are glad to have ranking member whitehouse with us for this important hearing.
▶ 0:20:43Chair Capito: Ranking member I heard your voice from above as we were starting so I know you are listening. I look forward to developing your -- continuing our partnership and I recognize you for your opening statement.
▶ 0:20:54Sen. Whitehouse: Thank you for the hearing to discuss the water resources development act of 2020 c apps. Thank you for the courtesy of for allowing me to participate remotely and your team for making all of this technology actually work. I appreciate it very much.
▶ 0:21:13Sen. Whitehouse: Just to give you a sense of what is going on, the guy who plows my driveway got his blouse noted and is only starting -- his plow snowed in and is only getting out. We found another team to get a whack at my driveway and they were defeated after pushing it maybe 30 yards. So, we are in hip deep, and the largest snowfall ever recorded in rhode island. I appreciate the courtesy.
▶ 0:21:45Sen. Whitehouse: Thank you to the as accident secretary and lieutenant general for appearing before the committee. I wish we were convening under better circumstances. As you recall, I supported your nomination and I look forward to working with you. You committed to work collaboratively with this committee to tackle our priorities and deliver the mission to all american people. Yet, communications between the corps and congressional offices have been largely shut down.
▶ 0:22:16Sen. Whitehouse: Your office does not answer requests for information from my staff, letters from members of this committee received no response. Questions for the record from last september's hearing remain unanswered.
▶ 0:22:32Sen. Whitehouse: As we convene today to discuss the wrda act of 2026, your office has issued implementation guidance for just three of over 180 provisions in the wrda of 2024. This seems ridiculous. When congress passes a law, the relevant agency must move swiftly to implement it and three out of 180 does not seem to measure up.
▶ 0:23:00Sen. Whitehouse: Most egregiously in the seven months since the senate confirmed your nomination, we are seeing what I consider to be the worst politicalization of the corps of engineers in modern times. Like many other federal agencies, the permitting process has been corrupted to stymie safe, affordable and renewable energy and to give advantage to the president's big fossil fuel donors.
▶ 0:23:31Sen. Whitehouse: I do not think that is fair or right. Wielding the permitting authority granted to the agency by congress in this manner violates the law and contravene the corps' own regulations that says it is neither a proponent or an opponent. You announced a an unprecedented pause on $11 billion in funding for studies and projects. In rhode island, and 11 other states represented by democrats in the senate.
▶ 0:24:02Sen. Whitehouse: Including six other members of this committee. Further reason, according to russell vought, that we are democrats. This is not just an attack on the opposition party, blood, because of our geography, it is attack on the nation's coasts as well. Annual funding for inland flood projects has long outpaced funding for coastal plot -- coastal plot -- projects by 20 to one, even 100 to one.
▶ 0:24:34Sen. Whitehouse: Instead of addressing this progress -- problem the corps has made things worse by pausing work on large, nonstructural flood risk projects, the vast majority of which protect coastal areas. With the coasts facing severe increase in flood risk from rising sea levels and worse ocean storms, it is just wrong for you to so disfavor coastal areas.
▶ 0:25:02Sen. Whitehouse: A review -- a rumored proposal to fund inland water projects off the backs of coastal ports by significantly increasing the harbor maintenance tax and merging the trust fund with the waterways trust fund would worsen the corps reputation as a bureaucratic tributary of the mississippi river with no regard for america's coast. The U.S. economy relies on global trade, and that global trade comes through the coastal ports.
▶ 0:25:32Sen. Whitehouse: Please, you should not be party to administration schemes that would jeopardize the country's long-term economic security just a harm coastal states as retribution for not bowing to the president's will. It is hard for me to imagine what your theory is, pursuing a bill that requires bipartisan support to pass, while engaged in this kind of conduct.
▶ 0:26:00Sen. Whitehouse: I know it comes from omb, but somebody along the line has to say no. A hard, fast, and convincing course correction is required to get yourselves on track. Please remember that you lead the U.S. army corps of engineers, not the donald j. Trump corps of engineers. Thank you, chairman.
▶ 0:26:23Chair Capito: Ok. I would thank the ranking member. And hope you find somebody else to tell him out of there. And, we are ready to hear from our witnesses. The first is the 14th assistant secretary of the army for works, adam telle. Prior to his confirmation, he spent two decades in public service with roles in the U.S.
▶ 0:26:53Chair Capito: Senate and trump administration. He now oversees the civil engineering functions of the united states army. Welcome and you are recognized for five minutes to deliver your opening statement.
▶ 0:27:03Sec. Telle: Thank you ranking member whitehouse and chairman o. -- capito. I am eager to share with my perspective after seven months as the assistant secretary for the army for civil works including what the corps of engineers is doing well. I hope my perspective is fallible -- valuable to you. I also wish to share an update on implementation which remains a topic of critical interest.
▶ 0:27:34Sec. Telle: Since my last appearance, the works program has finalized implementation guidance for all of the remaining provisions. The wrda is the law of the land. When it is signed by the president and we are implementing the law today. Of the 550 two provisions included in the most recent, we are developing additional guidance for 19 provisions.
▶ 0:27:57Sec. Telle: Our main commitment is to work with this committee to identify opportunities to improve the process for the future. One thing I have observed is that the army corps of engineers is at its best when responding to emergencies unburdened by red tape and enters army mode. Specific examples come to mind. They include the execution of assignments to remove debris after hurricane helene throughout appalachia, particularly in western north carolina.
▶ 0:28:27Sec. Telle: After the 2025 lost angeles -- wildfires. We supplemented state and local resources ahead of flooding in alaska. We responded to the southeast and today we are busy responding to the ecological disaster of the potomac river. When it comes to our everyday missions for decades, we have not had a plan.
▶ 0:28:51Sec. Telle: The status quo has been to execute everything all at once one inch at a time, resulting in delays including to projects that are substitute -- strategic national importance. Meanwhile reaching paperwork milestones and has been elevated as evidence of achievement and this is unacceptable for an agency that is so important to the prosperity of the american people. Stacks of paperwork have never saved lives or communities, except in very cold weather and no other fuel is available.
▶ 0:29:21Sec. Telle: We have to change the way that the army of civil works program conducts its business or the next decades will be more of the same. The stars are aligned to change this. We have $45 billion that congress has appropriated to our programs, but we have not executed. $15 billion of this funding is more than six years old. We have many ongoing projects at the congress has authorized and the core is attempting to build and would require significant funding to complete.
▶ 0:29:49Sec. Telle: The status quo approach is insufficient meaning that you will never deliver without fundamentally changing your behavior. To meet this challenge we unveiled a plan called building infrastructure, not paperwork. It is comprised of 27 individual but complementary initiatives to start. It is designed to reimagine and rejuvenate the army civil works program and with your support this will be the most significant transformation since 1986.
▶ 0:30:16Sec. Telle: Much of the content of this product was informed by the feedback I heard from members of this committee, the frustrations they have experienced. Through these strategic initiatives it is my goal to harmonize the program and realign and right size the structures of the corps of engineers with an emphasis on building up and not paperwork. It is driven by a sense of urgency and cultural transformation and to restore discipline.
▶ 0:30:44Sec. Telle: We are sharpening our focus under strategic planning and deliver on the mandate you have given us. To accelerate delivery we are implementing smarter contracting practices, and reforming our partnership pipeline to build what america needs faster and more effectively. As president trump has directed, we are causing bureaucratic red tape and reforming our system to provide fast and consistent decisions to the public.
▶ 0:31:10Sec. Telle: This will eliminate delays at accelerate our economy at a time that we find ourselves in global competition which will determine if the united states of america remains the greatest nation in the history of the world. We are instilling a culture of discipline by overhauling our financial and operational practices to attack waste and inefficiency. We are committed to executing our mission, ensuring every dollar spent with purpose to achieve clear and measurable results for the american people.
▶ 0:31:39Sec. Telle: President trump, secretary hegseth and secretary driscoll want to deliver infrastructure now and our partners are tired of delays and cost overruns. The time is right for change and we have the opportunity to transform the way of quote the cup -- the way the corps of engineers will transform.
▶ 0:31:53Chair Capito: Next we will hear from lieutenant general william h graham jr., the 56th chief of engineers and the commanding general of the army corps of engineers. He assumed these duties after serving as a deputy commanding general for several emergency operations. He is responsible for over 30,000 civilian employees and eight hundred military personnel and more than 110 countries. Welcome and we thank you for being here.
▶ 0:32:24Chair Capito: Please proceed with your opening statement.
▶ 0:32:25Chair Capito: Chairman, ranking member and members of the committee, I am honored to testify with regard to the 2026 water resources development act. Through the civil works program we work with our partners to study, build and operate water resource projects focusing on the three main mission areas of commercial navigation, flood and coastal storm damage destruction and ecosystem restoration.
▶ 0:32:53Chair Capito: The navigation program consists of our coastal and great lakes channels as well as the inland rivers and intercoastal waterways underpins much of the national economy ensuring that commodities can move reliably and efficiently. Our blood and coastal storm damage reduction program maintained 746 dams, 14,000 miles of federal levees and 450 miles of shore protections that provide on average a staggering $200 billion per year and flood damages avoided.
▶ 0:33:25Chair Capito: To continuously maintain and improve these mission areas, I want to thank the committee by supporting the program. Your commitment since 2014 to pass biannual water resource develop and ask has provided us with the authority necessary to address the changing needs of the nation's water resource infrastructure. We value the authorities that you have entrusted to us and our pledges to deliver for the american people.
▶ 0:33:50Chair Capito: To that end, the army corps's objective is to safely and efficiently deliver projects and schedule -- on schedule with budget. The current rate across the program is 86.2% and that is an improvement from the 80% I reported in september.
▶ 0:34:11Chair Capito: So, by focusing on the basics of getting engineering right in the project management right and getting the project delivery team right, and making our cost estimates more reliable in our project delivery more efficient. There is more work to do, more improvements to make. We are very excited about the building infrastructure and not paperwork initiative.
▶ 0:34:31Chair Capito: These improvements delivered by district engineers empowered to manage risk will allow the corps of engineers to make the necessary changes to best deliver are important infrastructure for the nation. Thank you for the opportunity to testify before you and I look forward to addressing your questions.
▶ 0:34:49Chair Capito: Thank you. We will start the question portion and I will start myself, and I'm going to admit here a little bit, secretary to some fusion. On my part. So, implementation of wrda laws and the lack of transparency of what is needed to implement these laws including to the extent of which any appropriations has needed has frustrated this commitment -- this committee in years.
▶ 0:35:19Chair Capito: It culminated in 1102, which requires your process does your office to develop an intimate a plan. I recognize there could be a variety of factors that impacts the rate of implementation. However, a firm understanding of where we stand on implementation is critical to the committee's ability to develop wrda 2026. What is the status of the plan required? I know you talked a little bit about that in your opening statement.
▶ 0:35:48Sec. Telle: Yes and thank you for the question. I would say to start off that when a law is signed -- when the president signs a law and becomes law and it is a law and we follow it. Of the 552 provisions included in the last three wrda's, as of the beginning of this week, 21 required implementation guidance. On monday I signed implementation guidance for two of them.
▶ 0:36:16Sec. Telle: Of the 19 remaining, five of those implementation guidance is will be finalized in the coming weeks. Seven of the provisions require appropriations to be implemented and an additional seven require a longer rulemaking process that will engage the public in a way that will take longer than the typical input -- implementation guidance.
▶ 0:36:40Sec. Telle: The remainder of the provisions did not require implementation guidance, and therefore, are in effect, I believe there are 86 reporting requirements and those 86 responses to those reporting requirements are currently under administration review.
▶ 0:37:01Chair Capito: Just so I understand, I am understanding from 1102 that you are to put forward and submit a plan. You have just told me about the implementation guidance. Is the structure of the implementation guidance the same as a plan? Do you see what I am saying? Are we talking about the same things?
▶ 0:37:29Sec. Telle: I think what we are trying to say is that we are happy to comply with 1102 and I will check our compliance with that section itself. Of the 550 two provisions enacted in the past three wrda's , only 21 of them required a more lengthy progress, the rest took effect immediately because they were simple and straightforward enough, so they are implemented.
▶ 0:37:58Sec. Telle: 86 of the provisions required information from us. That information has been collected. But the responses are currently under administration review.
▶ 0:38:06Chair Capito: So we would get your implementation guidance of the remainder of those and we can expect that through the rest of the year?
▶ 0:38:13Sec. Telle: I released two on monday and five should be coming in the coming weeks. Seven that require funding to implement and seven that will require a longer process. There are ways that my team has been talking with your team and other members of congress to inform both to get your advice on how we can shorten the process, but also for the future how we can make it more implementable. There are ways that we can help you help us make the process.
▶ 0:38:42Chair Capito: As is the reason there is $15 billion still that have -- that is still six years old and has not moved forward?
▶ 0:38:50Sec. Telle: No, largely unrelated. That funding is largely projects that were appropriated as a result of supplemental appropriations where for some reason whether it is a design or the project became too expensive and we do not have sufficient funding and the nonfederal response does not agree with the plan. There is a lot of reasons of funding has been stranded and the fact remains that it is stranded.
▶ 0:39:19Sec. Telle: I am putting pressure on the organization to find a way to make use of the funding.
▶ 0:39:21Chair Capito: That is what I am thinking. I know you have reprogrammed in the past, but I do not know if there are strings on that. But, that is a lot of money, $15 billion just sitting there and projects.
▶ 0:39:35Sec. Telle: It is a shame.
▶ 0:39:37Chair Capito: We need to figure out a way to try and do that. General, I talked to my opening statement about the importance of our nonfederal sponsors. And I am interested to know how you keep that open line of communications with the district and division commanders to make sure that they are working with the nonfederal sponsors and they are aware of any changes that we might make in wrda, in terms of flexibility is.
▶ 0:40:03Lt. Gen. Graham: Thank you for that question. In my opening statement we said we do not do anything by ourselves, everything we do goes hand-in-hand with one of our federal partners. We are looking right now. The key member of that partnership is a project or program manager. And those skills at interfacing with a nonfederal sponsor and their skills interfacing with the public are absolutely key.
▶ 0:40:33Lt. Gen. Graham: We have instituted initiatives to make sure that those key individuals have the training and experience to do that really difficult job, which is to make sure that they understand the problem, and that they understand what authority this committee has given to them and as those change so they can best inform our nonfederal sponsors on what options are out there, and how to put those options to work for their communities.
▶ 0:41:01Chair Capito: Senator whitehouse.
▶ 0:41:08Sen. Whitehouse: Thank you very much, chairman. I would like to start with just trying to clear the information blockade.
▶ 0:41:23Sen. Whitehouse: I have heard from members of the committee, constantly from my staff, from stakeholders struggling to get basic information from the corps, and in particular my staff has repeatedly requested information on the status of studies and projects affected by your review of the corps' investigation portfolio and by the pause and funding to blue states announced by omb last october.
▶ 0:41:52Sen. Whitehouse: If you would be good enough, would you authorize general graham right here and right now sitting next to you today to provide my staff with the requested information without further delay?
▶ 0:42:04Sec. Telle: Senator, thank you for the question. We met two weeks ago and discussed this issue. Your staff had requested information about the status of 39 separate projects or studies. I believe within a day or so of me visiting with you, my staff provided you with detailed information on the 39 projects or studies that you requested.
▶ 0:42:30Sec. Telle: We provided it to your staff and if there is anything that we left off, please let us know.
▶ 0:42:35Sen. Whitehouse: Well, it would be helpful if I did not have to wait until you and I had a personal meeting in order to get responses. To the extent that we have asked for things beyond those 39 or that the responses are complete, will you clear general graham to comply what they -- to comply with what we ask for?
▶ 0:42:56Sec. Telle: We will continue to do what we doing and we have will do it better, which is to visit with your team on a monthly basis and try to turn around very quickly the request for information. There is no reason for me to clear general graham. We are one team and we work together. The information that you receive will be the same as you receive from me.
▶ 0:43:17Sen. Whitehouse: Well, let us turn to core missions. Your prioritization initiative proposes to focus all resources on core missions while terminating legacy efforts that the corps believes no longer find value. It is coastal storm -- is coastal storm risk management a mission that will be prioritized?
▶ 0:43:45Sec. Telle: Absolutely. Coastal storm risk management is growing and a critical part of our portfolio. We treat it with every bit of importance as england storm risk management and navigation, and as I spoke to you two weeks ago when I visited, I spend a disproportionate amount of -- amount of my time and effort trying to build infrastructure in our coastal areas to protect
▶ 0:44:15Sec. Telle: Flood prone areas on the coasts, disproportionate to the inland. So, when it comes to building infrastructure and not paperwork, I cannot think of anything that will benefit more than coastal storm risk management.
▶ 0:44:27Sen. Whitehouse: Back to the missions, what happens when congress has directed you in a bill to do a particular thing, and you have decided that that is not a core mission?
▶ 0:44:42Sec. Telle: We follow the law. I am not sure what specific action you are talking about, but we follow the law.
▶ 0:44:55Sen. Whitehouse: The nonstructural flood risk management we have discussed a couple of times. You have made some logical points about dealing with the scope of the potential liability that the core faces.
▶ 0:45:14Sen. Whitehouse: To address that, I have developed a suite of legislative reforms that would provide the corps with the authorities it would need to implement nonstructural solutions more effectively and efficiently. My staff requested technical assistance on that legislation in november, and have yet to receive a response. Could you let me know when we can get that technical assistance?
▶ 0:45:40Sec. Telle: Senator, we will absolutely provide you with technical assistance. When it comes to the nonstructural issue, I want to make sure that the committee is tracking what we are talking about. In august, on the basis of exorbitant costs per unit that we were seeing. It was costing $600,000 per home to elevate structures.
▶ 0:46:05Sec. Telle: And the corps of engineers does not have experience elevating homes at scale on a regional basis to the thousands of homes. It does not mean that that should not be part of our toolkit, it absolutely should. At this moment there were two projects affected in process and five or six more that were under the feasibility stage. We just came to you immediately in august and said that this is not right.
▶ 0:46:31Sec. Telle: We all have a responsibility to ensure efficiency spending -- efficiently spending taxpayer dollars. We want to get it right, but that often means that the corps of engineers might be the best deliverer of that and it would not help participate in the funding of nonstructural solutions at scale on a regional basis but that the corps of engineers might not be the best executor and a nonfederal sponsor might be.
▶ 0:46:55Sen. Whitehouse: I will close out just with the observation that I appreciate some of the things you said about coastal risk management, but particularly with army corps projects, getting stuff done and funding out are the two really powerful ways of expressing your priorities.
▶ 0:47:15Sen. Whitehouse: And the continued 20 to one or 100 to one favoring of inland over coastal flooding remains a problem and, when the largest adjustments to the crops actions is one that disproportionately interferes with kos projects, that makes it worse, and then you throw in that the blue states tend to be coastal, and they were the ones that omb held up for cuts.
▶ 0:47:43Sen. Whitehouse: It does not look like just a new day for coasts yet, but I appreciate everything you said about paying more attention and hopefully we will work together to turn that into real progress. Thank you.
▶ 0:47:55Sec. Telle: If I may, when you and I met, recently, I committed to get you information about the distribution between coasts and inland on supplemental funding. And, I will provide that to you now as well as the entire committee. We analyzed all spending on flood risk mitigation since 2017, fiscal year of the amount spent on flood risk mitigation in total, $24 billion.
▶ 0:48:28Sec. Telle: $9 billion for coastal storm risk mitigation.
▶ 0:48:29Chair Capito: Ok. Senator cramer.
▶ 0:48:33Sen. Cramer: Thank you madam chair and for senator whitehouse, I cannot compare to what you are going through right now back in north dakota. We have really good plows that can get us out of those situations. But I do feel your pain, believe me.
▶ 0:48:51Sen. Cramer: We usually have
▶ 0:48:53Plows On -- Sen. Whitehouse: We usually have plows on pickup trucks.
▶ 0:48:57Sen. Cramer: I want one of those by the way, in my next life. Thank you for being here. And I was thinking madam chair when you were talking about the history of work and I remember when chairman schuster promised that we would have two year wrda , and we have been doing it ever since. It is a nice cadence we are in and that is a testament to the leadership on both sides for the last several years.
▶ 0:49:24Sen. Cramer: Real quickly, secretary, I want to just share publicly with what I shared with you privately. Really appreciate your work on the pipeline, eis, and I will not go through the entire history. It has been a decade in the works.
▶ 0:49:44Sen. Cramer: And I just want you to know that those of us living with that situation are grateful both for the urgency that you have given it as well as the thoughtfulness. Thoughtful emergency or urgent thoughtfulness. Complicated stuff but really appreciate the work of you and your team and we look forward to that decision very soon. I want to speak just a little bit to you about the rollout this week.
▶ 0:50:12Sen. Cramer: And just thank you so much, anything you can do to make the agency more efficient and effective and it is very important work in your mission. I applaud. And if there is anything we should be doing to help codify any of that, please be open with us. I would really want to be part of that. You know, part of that solution, if you will. This is a bipartisan issue.
▶ 0:50:39Sen. Cramer: We have had some good hearings already on permitting reform and I think about the very specific role that your agency plays in infrastructure buildout. Even your discussion just listening for the last several minutes to your discussion with senator whitehouse. We are all on the same page. Let us do stuff better, faster and more efficiently with lower costs if we can. While not cutting corners, just doing things in a better way.
▶ 0:51:10Sen. Cramer: Let us know how to be helpful on that. On the regulatory front, I do want to speak a little bit about the efficiency of jurisdictional determination as it relates to what is and what is the waters of the united states. This new rule is in the banking and I am really grateful to the epa for the hearing in north dakota that we had. I hope we populated the record in a helpful way. I feel like we did.
▶ 0:51:38Sen. Cramer: One of the areas that has already -- always frustrated me about the evolution of wotus, but even though it has been clear about what has not been a watershed, the idea that the jurisdiction is still required is one of my great frustrations.
▶ 0:51:59Sen. Cramer: As we get to finalizing a rule, maybe just help me better understand that piece of it, how can we help landowners know intuitively and intellectually and obviously what is not the waters of the united states, and is that an area of opportunity for us?
▶ 0:52:19Sec. Telle: Thank you very much and I thank you for your testimony on something that is critically important and is part of the building infrastructure. On march 12 of last year, we have already got a walking start because this decision was rendered by the supreme court in 2023 was a law of the land and on march 12 of last year we issued interim guidance to our regulators throughout our enterprise about what it meant
▶ 0:52:49Sec. Telle: To follow the law as it stands. We also have gotten busy on our partners with the environmental protection agency on making sure that the rules matched the law as it stands today. We are intent on following the law.
▶ 0:53:06Sec. Telle: The point that you are making and I believe it is a critically important one is that even when we have a new law, a new rule, we still rely on the employees in general graham's enterprise, whether it is at the huntington district or the st. Paul district, we rely on our regulators to interpret the law. Quite often I heard frustration from members of congress and the public about the inconsistency that they see across the landscape.
▶ 0:53:36Sec. Telle: If it is the law, it ought to be interpreted by the army corps of engineers consistently. And it ought to be in keeping with the law. We began the process in the fall of a very rapid acquisition of the latest technology to make sure that we can use the tools available and the never before seen history data that we have to tie geographical features about what waters of the united
▶ 0:54:06Sec. Telle: States is back to the law and the clean water act of 1972 and all of the decisions that have, ever since. If we can provide this tool to our regulators you can take objectivity out of the equation and give our regulators a tool. The tool might not provide the final decision and it might still be our regulators and if it has a tool that is very rapidly developing to coincide with the finalized rule, it will provide clarity and durability in a public that we have not seen.
▶ 0:54:35Sen. Cramer: That is a great point because the diversity of ideas and the philosophies on the regulars is a bit of a problem. And that presents a lack of clarity to the developer, landowner or engineering firm and whatever the case might be. I might just add to that, how about the determination by the developer and the landowner themselves to see is -- what is obviously not a wetland.
▶ 0:55:06Sen. Cramer: I always say this, we do not ask every driver on the interstate to call the highway patrol to ask permission to drive the speed limit. The nice thing is that it is not only on the sign on the side of the road but on the gps in your car. So there is clarity. And so, it seems to me that we need to get that down to a local level.
▶ 0:55:29Sec. Telle: You are right. The best version of what we are trying to do would enable the public to have transparency in real time of what is or is not the water of the united states and the decision should be made instantly with the technology we have. This is complicated by the legal wrangling over the decades but I am committed to looking at what the law says today and providing technology that provides clarity in real-time.
▶ 0:55:53Sen. Cramer: Thank you.
▶ 0:55:54Chair Capito: Senator merkley.
▶ 0:55:57Sen. Merkley: Thank you very much the corps does such an important work in the northwest quadrant of the united states of america. We have a close working relationship that we much appreciate, but I do feel like the flow of information has changed a bit over the last year. And I am very concerned about that.
▶ 0:56:19Sen. Merkley: I have seen situations where an administration has previously not answered the q f rs until right before the next hearing about a situation where they absolutely did not answer at all. And they are submitted after the september gathering have never been answered. I do not understand that, why not answer them?
▶ 0:56:40Sec. Telle: I agree with you and I think it is unacceptable that we have not answer the questions for the record that were submitted at our previous hearing. This is something that I did not anticipate would take so long. Obviously we had the longest government shut down in history in the middle of that and that is still no excuse.
▶ 0:56:58Sen. Markley: I appreciate that. You have answered my question that you want to get it done.
▶ 0:57:03Sec. Telle: Both for this committee and the house committee, the qfr's are in the final stages of review and we expect that soon.
▶ 0:57:13Sen. Markley: In the northwest we have a lot of flood control dams on the columbia and its tributaries there is always been this partnership in which we have said we know that they will have a big impact and we have mitigation strategies including the hatcheries. And those hatcheries have been kind of a sacred responsibility to maintaining the salmon and other species that travel through the river system.
▶ 0:57:44Sen. Markley: And, it has appeared that the work that the core has been doing on the hatcheries has slowed down or stopped. And is there a strategy for the court to say that they are not going to continue this partnership that has been so important to the economy and culture of the northwest?
▶ 0:58:05Sec. Telle: I am not of -- I am not aware of any particular strategy but I will defer to general graham.
▶ 0:58:13Sec. Telle: Absolutely not, but where we have fallen behind is the capital reinvestment of those hatcheries. I took a look at what the portland district is doing and we think it is about 160 million dollars to recapitalize those facilities. And that is where we need to go. We are thankful for the roughly $9.4 million that we received in the latest appropriations to work on the river.
▶ 0:58:43Sec. Telle: And we will put that money to good use to design how to re-plum the facility. As I mentioned, there is 160 million dollars of backlog that we have not been investing in them and it is time to capital reinvest.
▶ 0:58:56Sen. Markley: Thank you very much lieutenant general. And when I asked in september that you had read after consultation that hatcheries as a c minus four d in most regulations. And indicated a desire to establish a long-term plan to reinvest, is that plan under development. That sounded like a good idea when you suggested that.
▶ 0:59:22Sec. Telle: That plan is the first step and that is making sure that we truly understand the scope of the facilities that we have got so we can put a good cost estimate together and talk about the portland district that is underway.
▶ 0:59:37Sen. Markley: If we need to formalize that, I will be happy to work with you because I think that hatcheries are suffering. And it is such a critical one but it is only one of many hatcheries that have been part of sustaining the fish on these multiple rivers. So, I want to really highlight that and continue to work with you all on that.
▶ 1:00:05Sen. Markley: I want to turn to the wrda 22 authorizing study to examine dredging in different regions across the country, and it is particularly important to the many harbors on the west coast and many river ways. It is very important to our recreational fishing and commercial for sharing and commercial traffic up and down the columbia.
▶ 1:00:28Sen. Markley: And that study, we do not have it. How do we get this study?
▶ 1:00:40Sec. Telle: Senator, I will push to general graham in a moment to give you ace response. And I want to reiterate, dredging is the lifeblood of the american economy to -- economy. I've been using the analogy which is appropriately appropriate today but the dredging capacity is really providing the same function to our economy that snowplows provide when we are trapped
▶ 1:01:11Sec. Telle: Under inches of snow. We clear the roads and get back to work and it is the same thing on a much larger scale. It is the secret to our economy and how we project economic power across the globe and I will let general graham answer on the columbia river.
▶ 1:01:23Lt. Gen. Graham: Section 8205 and wrda 2022 as for the report and the report is under administrative review. We will work diligently to get that information over to you. We are looking to one point looking at dredging and looking regionally none so much as the columbia system.
▶ 1:01:49Lt. Gen. Graham: Under building infrastructure and not paperwork, we will look to harness the power of we are the largest purchaser of dredging services in the nation and we are looking to leverage that to get a better deal for the american people including many industries on the columbia river.
▶ 1:02:05Sen. Markley: My time is up, but in both the case of this dredging study and in the case of the report that was required for the impacts of deauthorizing hydropower.
▶ 1:02:23Sen. Markley: The people's utilities came in yesterday, and said that we really want to get that report because it appears that some of the smaller operations are getting a little bit of hydropower but at a very elevated cost, whale up -- way above other ways but they do not know what it says -- that it for sure. Both of these reports in september we were told was under administrative review, which means it is stuck at omb.
▶ 1:02:52Sen. Markley: It is just essential in a democratic republic that when reports are done and I understand a short look at them and sometimes -- but to just have them to die because somebody somewhere has never gotten to them or somebody somewhere does not like something in the report, I mean we need to have the information flow. And, if the information is inaccurate we need to bring in other experts. Please commit, both of you getting the reports out of omb and delivering them.
▶ 1:03:23Sen. Markley: It is not acceptable in a democracy to have these authorized and funded by law, don, completed and the hard work that your team has done general and assistant secretary, get us the reports, please.
▶ 1:03:36Sec. Telle: We will be happy to press on those reports. It is important that we coordinate across the inner agency and that does not mean it should be indefinitely delayed, but there is value to making sure that we have a coordinated response and that is what these reviews are often four and I apologize for the delay and we will get you a status update.
▶ 1:03:57Chair Capito: Senator ricketts.
▶ 1:04:01Sen. Ricketts: Thank you chairman and ranking member for hosting today's hearing and our witnesses for being here and I appreciate it. I certainly, I applaud the whole building infrastructure and not paperwork and you know from our conversations that I am a big believer in process improvement and it is a great step towards accelerating project delivery. This is necessary as we look to infrastructure projects and future flood events.
▶ 1:04:31Sen. Ricketts: One of those we discussed can have -- when we talked in september of last year can have devastating impacts. In 2019 we had the most widespread flooding in state history in nebraska. During that flood four people lost their lives and it cost nebraska more than $3 billion. Our farmers and ranchers lost a billion dollars of that.
▶ 1:04:58Sen. Ricketts: As we look to improve the core and its authorized programs, venting loss of life should be top priority. It is concerning that it is currently not being treated that way. In the 1979 missouri river master manual, flood control was authorized over the other purposes. The purposes were explicitly ranked.
▶ 1:05:22Sen. Ricketts: Following lawsuits filed by environmental groups related to the endangered species act they created the 2004 master manual to comply with the court order. This amended the master manual to reverse the historical flood control and water management practices and put all projects on the same level as flood control to comply with the endangered species act.
▶ 1:05:46Sen. Ricketts: As a result, farmers and landowners saw disastrous flooding along the missouri river and filed farms versus united states in 2013 which claimed that the 2004 policy shift lead to recurrent flooding between 2007 and 2014. In 2018 the court found that the corps was responsible for flooding due to its 2004 decision to prioritize flood control.
▶ 1:06:12Sen. Ricketts: Despite that, the current update in 2018 is still governing the operations on the missouri river, and still leaves the authorized project purposes unranked. Does the corps currently treat the project purposes as equal priorities?
▶ 1:06:30Sec. Telle: Life held satan --
▶ 1:06:32Lt. Gen. Graham: Life health and safety is number one.
▶ 1:06:35Sen. Ricketts: Last year you gave a similar response. How do you prioritize flood control, life and property when your master manual has the authorized public -- project purposes ranked completely the same?
▶ 1:06:49Lt. Gen. Graham: Project by project as those are formulated, life, health and safety are the top priority.
▶ 1:06:57Sen. Ricketts: Even though you do not have it written down it is an unwritten rule or thing that your team knows that if it involves life, and property that gets ranked above the endangered species act?
▶ 1:07:10Lt. Gen. Graham: That is always our number one priority. I will get back to you on how we have codified that in our procedures. But life, health, and safety is number one.
▶ 1:07:21Sen. Ricketts: To protect life and property from flooding, would you say that congress needs to act to make flood control supersede species protection?
▶ 1:07:31Sec. Telle: Senator, I am not in a position to make that assertion today. It certainly seems that president trump has prioritized protecting human life and human prosperity. I will say thank you and I would say on the building infrastructure out of paperwork initiatives I would say thank you because you are part of the inspiration it given your run as governor of nebraska and everything that you did.
▶ 1:08:00Sec. Telle: And I will also say related to the topic you are asking about, I am in the process of planning a trip along the entire missouri river this spring and this is something I want to take a close look at so I can understand and help inform the process. I think that protecting life is always our number one priority in everything that we do.
▶ 1:08:20Sen. Ricketts: I laid out the timeline of the legal cases, so I would certainly appreciate an opportunity and when you are along the missouri river let me know so I can see if I could be with you to talk about this because it has created a problem based on the legal history of what has happened. This is where I think congress does need to step in. According to a congressional briefing with the U.S. wildlife service, the sturgeon has demonstrated mastery recovery metrics.
▶ 1:08:52Sen. Ricketts: How are these updated -- however these update metrics have not been publicly available venting meaningful review. Can you work with me and make a commitment to work with fish and wildlife service to make these metrics public and provide them so we can have more transparency?
▶ 1:09:08Sec. Telle: Absolutely and this is something we are already hard at work on. Tim patty with the national marine fisheries service as well as fish and wildlife service has been raising these types of issues in the waters of cabinet. And I think we are in a position under this administration to have a very practical view of these types of issues and solve them globally at the washington, D.C.
▶ 1:09:33Sec. Telle: Headquarters level so we can provide certainty for issues like this one where we are trying to do our best to follow the laws as they relate to the environment while also allowing the type of activities that benefit humanity to continue.
▶ 1:09:45Sen. Ricketts: My time is expired and with my indulgence I will hit upon a couple of points really quickly. One of the things I started as governor as the perkins county canal that would bring water from colorado to nebraska under a compact that we have that dates back to 1926 and I look forward to working with you as we push forward on this project and it is very important to ensure that our folks in
▶ 1:10:15Sen. Ricketts: Nebraska, weathered it -- whether it is the water users and regular consumers or farmers and ranchers have access to water. Finally, one of the big issues that we have occasionally is ice jams. And one of the things we need to address and we will follow up this later on the gavin's point dam to address the ice flows. Iowa had its power generation curtailed in 2022 when we had a snowstorm, winter storm elliott.
▶ 1:10:46Sen. Ricketts: I think the ranking member is feeling a little bit of that pain right now. But, I want to highlight that one of the alternatives that people throw out there is we can use explosives to try and break up the ice. Nobody wants to use explosives. Please, help work with us on other solution so we do not have these problems. Chairman, thank you.
▶ 1:11:07Chair Capito: Senator padilla.
▶ 1:11:11Sen. Padilla: Thank you. Before I get to my first question, I'm going to make a statement that is going to echo the theme and some concerns from a number of my colleagues on this committee. So let me start by being california's specific and saying that the process for funding and implementing projects in california is fundamentally broken and cannot support a wrda bill without seeing changes.
▶ 1:11:40Sen. Padilla: Let me review what has happened with california's highest priority army corps projects just within the last year. Sacramento has among the highest flood risk of any major city in america. The army corps get said. 86% of its homes are at risk.
▶ 1:11:59Sen. Padilla: And yet nevertheless, over $126 million was stripped out of the fiscal year 2025 work plan as part of the political transfer of over $250 million from states that have elected democratic leadership's estate with republican leadership. A shift from blue to red states.
▶ 1:12:23Sen. Padilla: On october, the 17th of last year, the director of the office of management and budget announced that over $11 billion in core funding for projects in blue states, including california have been paused. I understand the district commanders were told which projects were frozen and they were also directed not to inform the local project sponsors or the public.
▶ 1:12:51Sen. Padilla: So this great uncertainty over where california projects are being frozen and for how long. What we do know is that many critical projects in california are also facing arbitrary obstacles. For the san francisco waterfront project, we are hearing the court will no longer approve in a report that had been scheduled for this year.
▶ 1:13:16Sen. Padilla: Work on the los angeles river echo system -- ecosystem restoration project has stopped because the corps is no longer processing the request for a project cost increase even though lieutenant general graham publicly committed that the requested cost increase would be administratively approved in time for the wrda a few months ago.
▶ 1:13:41Sen. Padilla: And a recycled water pipeline in los angeles county has been stalled for over three months by a new policy requiring the assistant secretary's office to review project cooperative agreements that have already been signed off on by the corps, district, and division.
▶ 1:14:00Sen. Padilla: Madam chair, how can I possibly support a business as usual wrda , when so many critical california projects are either arbitrarily stopped, stalled, or facing fundamental uncertainty whether they will still have funding going forward? To support a wrda, we need uncertainty -- certainty that the congress has acted and the president has signed into law specific funding amounts for specific projects.
▶ 1:14:29Sen. Padilla: These projects cannot simply be indefinitely that being said, let me jump into my first question. General graham, I am going to ask about the san francisco waterfront coastal flood study which is a critical project to protect downtown san francisco from potentially severe coastal flooding. The study is on the verge of completion after substantial local expenditures.
▶ 1:15:00Sen. Padilla: It has been executed in full accordance with existing core guidance. Yet in the late stages of mature study, the new 35% design requirement which you and I discussed at a recent hearing last september presents major challenges for the authorization and advancement of this important project.
▶ 1:15:24Sen. Padilla: If the port of san francisco is willing to work with you to forecast and control costs for future cost shared work, what can the corps do to complete the chiefs report on schedule this year?
▶ 1:15:36Lt. Gen. Graham: Senator padilla, think of that question. I spent time walking era, meeting with the port over the years and you are correct, that is the path we had gone down. We had gone down this path of looking at these very complicated projects in many areas, coastal texas, harbor in new york city. What we have come up with our multi, multi-, multibillion-dollar projects.
▶ 1:16:05Lt. Gen. Graham: The update I got this week on where san francisco waterfront was is somewhere between $17 billion and $32 billion. Our construction budget every year is $2 billion to $3 billion. We are trying to take these looks at these very long complicated projects and try to break them down into digestible pieces we can actually get after and make san francisco that amazing place that it is safer.
▶ 1:16:34Lt. Gen. Graham: You have our absolute commitment that we are going to work diligently to break these projects down. But we've got to make sure we get the engineering right -- we have been too long asking authorizations from this committee when engineering behind those cost estimates are only at 5% to 10%. I asked in this case, where do we think the design maturity is in total the san francisco waterfront project? It is about 10%.
▶ 1:17:03Lt. Gen. Graham: I think the way forward is just such a big, complicated problem. We have great sponsors. Our commitment is to keep working on ways to take a look at these broad problems and break them down into manageable pieces.
▶ 1:17:17Sen. Padilla: The beginning of what I want to hear, what is the path forward? I know some of these projects represent a big budget, a big dollar amount. So that is why this new 35% requirement -- it is not part of a one-size-fits-all because not one size does fit all. So what is the path forward? We have talked offline about the everglades authorization proceeded that was set.
▶ 1:17:46Sen. Padilla: I'm not saying it has to be that exact model because other models -- I would just love to get a commitment on the corps this is how we going to tackle the challenges of these bigger ticket projects that are so critical. I know my colleagues have talked about life safety. This is life safety in san francisco.
▶ 1:18:06Sec. Telle: If I may respond, I would point you to a new process that we developed as part of the building infrastructure to get at the challenge you are identifying. We have incentivized our nonfederal sponsors to build these big complex projects and we wind up studying them for decades. It turns out to get them to the fidelity of engineering required to provide the congress with accurate information, we may have to study them for another decade after everything changes in the community like san francisco, dynamic community.
▶ 1:18:36Sec. Telle: The rapid process allows us to take features within a project to lift them out and design them to 35% maturity so we can submit them to you with confidence we know what we are talking about, we know with the cost is going to be. And get that project authorized and funded, start delivering the american public, for your constituents, then move onto the other features within the project rather than seeking to boil the ocean right away.
▶ 1:19:04Sen. Padilla: My time is up. Two things I will ask additional follow-up questions for the record after today, but I do want to reassure in front of my colleagues that there is a significant investment from local partners on this and other projects in california for that matter to date. As we may pivot to a different model of breaking this down and getting to completion in a different way, I want to make sure those initial investments are accredited and not overlooked. There is value there.
▶ 1:19:35Sen. Padilla: With that, thank you.
▶ 1:19:36Chair Capito: Senator boozman.
▶ 1:19:41Sen. Boozman: Thank you for being here. The great work you are doing. I want to start off and really take a minute to thank secretary tell for the support during the darnell spillway failure that forced off-line.
▶ 1:20:02Sen. Boozman: The incident exposed real vulnerabilities not just navigation but for our regional grid and 1800 megawatts of nuclear generation pool levels. This really was a crisis. The corps did an excellent job of stepping in and getting it done in a timely fashion. Sec.
▶ 1:20:24Sen. Boozman: Telle, one of the things that concerns me and I know concerns both of you, congress and our projects sponsors continue to encounter inconsistent expo nations between districts, divisions, and headquarters when it comes or project readiness and prioritization. These slow projects and create confusion for local partners.
▶ 1:20:51Sen. Boozman: Can you tell us about reforms you are in the process of implementing to create a more transparent, uniform, a protectable process so congress sponsors can understand how decisions are made and what is required to move her project forward? Sec. Telle: absolutely. Thank you for raising this point. One of the features of building infrastructure not paperwork has to do with harmonizing and making consistent -- the work we do from district to district.
▶ 1:21:20Sen. Boozman: We are very blessed the corps of engineers is out in the communities of america. I believe only 2% of our workforce is here in washington, d c the other 98% is out in the communities. That is a blessing in wonderful strength we have.
▶ 1:21:38Sen. Boozman: But it also means we have to work doubly hard to make sure we have consistency, that when a state like yours is divided among multiple districts and you have communities that boarded those districts and one part may have to do with one district and another may deal with another, they ought to get the same customer service and level of support and transparency that they get from each district whether they are in the little rock district or memphis district, for instance. This is something I've been working on since I took this job.
▶ 1:22:09Sen. Boozman: General graham has been a great help ensuring we can have consistent and coherent program across the enterprise, but we -- I want to make clear this is not trying to decentralize our work here in washington. This is about empowering our commanders, making some of the work off their plate that we can handle at the washington, D.C., level so they can get after the type of work we have been describing here today.
▶ 1:22:33Sen. Boozman: Mr. secretary, many permit applicants including state and local governments and private developers rely on the corps for timely review and consultations. Section 214, funding agreements, very successful in arkansas. They increase the capacity elsewhere in the corps and expediting the permit process critical infrastructure.
▶ 1:23:00Sen. Boozman: For example, the arkansas department of transportation has been able to fund a liaison to the court, increasing coordination, key infrastructure projects advanced by fish and wildlife -- same story. How do these agreements fit into your transformation of the corps ? What would you and congress to expand and improve these agreements where needed? Also, we we undergoing -- is that part of the hiring freeze now that is going on? Is that impacted?
▶ 1:23:33Sen. Boozman: Programs like this to be actually seem the way they're working in arkansas are able to expand your workforce without cost to you.
▶ 1:23:44Sec. Telle: You are absolutely right. This is a key part of building infrastructure not paperwork. This committee has provided us with married authorities. 214 is just one of them. 203, 204, 10 43. These are authorities where we have the ability to do what you said. We have this huge demand for our work whether it is in the infrastructure part of our work or the permitting part of our work.
▶ 1:24:09Sec. Telle: This huge demand in our districts have been incentivized in the past to hold that work for themselves, to justify in some cases their existence. We have capacity out there with our nonfederal sponsors, our state and local partners, with the private sector where we want to get after building infrastructure not paperwork, we would be foolish to not take advantage of expertise and expand our capacity beyond just what we are able to deliver.
▶ 1:24:39Sec. Telle: So building infrastructure not paperwork is all about leveraging our partners and 214 is an example of that.
▶ 1:24:44Sen. Boozman: Thank you. I thank you both again for working so hard to get us moving in the right direction. >> I want to touch on something senator boozman raised early in a statement, we had a situation in arkansas last august where one of the gates on the dam got stuck in the up position. I raise this because our folks there at the little rock district for days could not get the gate back down.
▶ 1:25:16Sen. Boozman: Water was rushing through the dam in the pool behind the dam was going down. This did not get much media attention but nuclear one that powers much of the state of arkansas was within hours of having to shut down because the water behind the dam was get into a low level. It occurred to me when this happened and I heard about it that this really is a great illustrator of the vulnerability of our critical infrastructure from cyber.
▶ 1:25:40Sen. Boozman: Because if a nefarious actor wanted to access our critical infrastructure, this is the type of effect they could have and I'm really proud of our team in missouri which is looking at -- branson, missouri, which is looking after it. Want to point to this as a lesson for us all to learn as we think about our vulnerabilities.
▶ 1:26:00Chair Capito: Thank you. Senator alsobrooks.
▶ 1:26:06Sen. Alsobrooks: Thank you so much for holding this important hearing and thank you especially to our and general graham for being here today. Marilyn communities dependent on the army corps to deliver critical flood protection, ecosystem restoration and navigation projects that congress has authorized and funded and so, sec.
▶ 1:26:26Sen. Alsobrooks: Telle, senator van hollen and I sent you a letter earlier this month that outlined several marilyn priorities which we hope the administration will include in the corps's work plan for fy 26 including the mid-chesapeake bay island ecosystem restoration project dredging to maintain safe navigation channels for the port of baltimore and cno canal dewatering in cumberland which is key to cultural environmental
▶ 1:26:57Sen. Alsobrooks: Flood mitigation in our state. Now, the mid-bay ecosystem restoration project is critical for dredged material management is popular island which is capacity. I know you understand this because you visited. Would you explain how the corps 's plan to ensure funding, contracts, construction schedules are in place of this transition does not cause delays to the port of baltimore's dredging operations?
▶ 1:27:21Sec. Telle: You are absolutely right. Ports like the port of baltimore in particular, it is not just about dredging the channel to ensure, scan continue, it is also about having in place to deposit the dredge material that comes out of the channel that is so important like the port of baltimore. You raised popular island where we have been depositing the material for many years. That is a place where we get beneficial use. We could to take that dredge material and restore ecosystem in the chesapeake bay.
▶ 1:27:51Sec. Telle: As you said, it is running at capacity and we have to expand that not just the chesapeake but also to make sure the port of baltimore can continue to be an important terminal that it is the eastern seaboard and our nation. We are -- I believe all is in order as it relates to that expansion. It is something that is important to me. As we develop the f I-26 plan, we will absolute -- you have been a great advocate for this.
▶ 1:28:20Sec. Telle: We will keep that in mind as we work through that.
▶ 1:28:24Lt. Gen. Graham: In march we do plan to work with $168 million we have on hand, award the prep contract we will wait for additional funding in the work plan to come after that, potentially to keep that project moving forward. Right now is the secretary spoke to, we are on track.
▶ 1:28:46Lt. Gen. Graham: Sup alsobrooks I know bridging -- sup alsobrooks I know dredging is limited, so what specific investments, procurement plans, or operational strategies is the core of limiting to ensure navigation channels serving baltimore remains safe, reliable, and capable of handling increased vessel traffic?
▶ 1:29:07Sec. Telle: Thank you for raising this question. You hit on a very important thing here. Our nation depends on dredging capacity but unfortunately, the way we are acquiring that dredging capacity and contracting with our private sector partners is inefficient. Putting up a structure not paperwork is going to tackle that in a number of ways.
▶ 1:29:27Sec. Telle: But one I will highlight I think were hitting on here, the way we deal with the contracting for this is we quite often have regional contracts that do not look at the national scope. And make smart decisions about how we deploy the resources nationally. We also have environmental challenges related to dredging that we have not updated sometimes in decades.
▶ 1:29:50Sec. Telle: The way I equated, sometimes we have these windows to dredge, small part of the year I equate to your spouse asking you to run errands on a saturday and you have to go to 10 different places and you and I guess you have to go all the way across the washington, D.C., metro for aaron number one and back across the washington, D.C., metro for number two.
▶ 1:30:17Sec. Telle: Any rational person would go to the stop closest to them first and the stop closest to that next and the stop closest to that next and have an efficient saturday of errand running. But right now the way we acquire our dredging, we are sending our directors all over. They are spending quite often more times in transit between our ports and they are in the ports dredging.
▶ 1:30:39Sec. Telle: The infrastructure not paperwork will get after this in a number of ways and give us more efficient dredging that will benefit ports all up and down the east coast and the golf and west coast as well.
▶ 1:30:49Sen. Alsobrooks: On october 17, russell vought, director of the office of management and budget, posted on x that the democrat shut down has drained the army corps of engineers ability to manage billions of dollars on projects and further stated over $11 billion in lower priority projects, including projects in new york, san francisco, boston, and baltimore, would be paused or considered for cancellation. In response, my colleagues and I on october 30 sent a letter to you, sec.
▶ 1:31:18Sen. Alsobrooks: Telle, urging you to defend the corps is politically biased decision making and that letter remains unanswered. Our staff continues to not receive information on the effective projects and studies and I along with members of the maryland delegation sent a letter following up requesting marilyn-specific details as these threatened insulations impact the safety, flood protection and economic well-being of communities across our state.
▶ 1:31:43Sen. Alsobrooks: I see our time -- I want to ask two quick questions whether the failure to respond because I know you said transparency was important to you, communication was important to you, and whether or not you regard that as a break that commitment and whether or not we can have that commitment from you that we will have the answers. It has been four months and we have no answers and we need that commitment.
▶ 1:32:04Sec. Telle: We had the longest shut down in our nation history last fall. It was very unfortunate. It caused all kinds of problems for us and what we do. It caused general graham all kinds of problems. It was terribly unfortunate. What I will say about projects is we are assessing and reviewing all of our portfolio all the time.
▶ 1:32:27Sec. Telle: We empower our project managers, our districts, divisions -- if we see something going wrong with the project to stop and take a look and make sure we get back on track. This is normal and everyday process within what we do to deliver good oversight.
▶ 1:32:45Sen. Alsobrooks: I know I'm going to get cut off but when can we expect a response?
▶ 1:32:48Sec. Telle: We are happy to get your response.
▶ 1:32:53Sen. Alsobrooks: Thank you.
▶ 1:32:53Chair Capito: Senator blunt rochester.
▶ 1:32:58Sen. Blunt Rochester: Thank you to the witnesses for being here. Some of my questions will probably just pick right up on my colleague. First, I want to also say thank you for highlighting the focus on the vulnerabilities that we have with our critical infrastructure. I think that is something that we as a congress need to pay particular attention to read and those vulnerabilities can be cyber, they can be the elements.
▶ 1:33:31Sen. Blunt Rochester: But this is really important to all of us. I wanted to start off by saying during 2022 and 2024, I had the opportunity to work very closely with our former chairman tom carper. Chair capito came to delaware for a field hearing as well.
▶ 1:33:55Sen. Blunt Rochester: Part of the work with senator carper was to authorize individual environmental structure programs for each of delaware's three counties. And as you know, the environment infrastructure program support local water, wastewater, and stormwater projects in partnership with nonfederal sponsors. In conversations across my state, it is becoming clearer that delaware communities are having difficulty accessing funding for these programs. So, sec.
▶ 1:34:23Sen. Blunt Rochester: Telle, how are you working to implement the environmental infrastructure authorities previously outlined in 2022 and 2020 for and what specific steps are you working to make these projects more accessible to communities?
▶ 1:34:41Sec. Telle: When it comes to the environment for structure authorities and funding that congress has provided, we are going to follow the law. I will point out that while there have been -- there's been a lot of good that has come from that program in terms of supplementing local communities water capacity, this type of project is one that currently has not been included in the president's budget or whether the president is republican or democrat.
▶ 1:35:10Sec. Telle: This is not something that has been prioritized and presidents budgets and there is a reason for that. The corps of engineers is the greatest civil engineering entity that humanity has ever devised. There are municipal needs that are critical and we all went clean water and wastewater in every community in america. I think the question that confronts us and it confronts me is that whether or not we are going to use you say engineering excellence on these municipal functions. I see senator kelly is here.
▶ 1:35:42Sec. Telle: I think about nasa, the greatest space agency humanity has ever devised. We would not expect nasa to be in charge of every counties science fair. I think that is what -- I think where ministrations of both parties have seen environmental infrastructure. With that said, there are needs after the corps of engineers and address. Congress gives us authority to address them and funding to address them and we will follow the law.
▶ 1:36:07Sec. Telle: Quite often that means contracting with the same providers that a municipality would contract with to deliver that service. We don't have that inherent expertise within the corps of engineers but we are happy to continue to follow the law and execute the funding provided by congress.
▶ 1:36:23Sen. Blunt Rochester: Just to make sure I am clear, wrda 2022 and wrda 2024, this was the priority we talked about and so are you saying -- and when you compare, you know, nasa and a science fair, are you comparing the corps with communities? Is that the analogy?
▶ 1:36:50Sen. Blunt Rochester: That municipalities, communities, don't meet the standard of -- I'm just confused a little bit. I thought this was an easy question.
▶ 1:37:00Sec. Telle: No, mama. I probably made it more complicated than I should have. The bottom line is, for a long time, as the ministrations of both parties have racked and stuck the priorities for funding of the cork from this type of activity has not risen to the top. This dates back decades. With that said, this has been a priority for congress because it is a priority for congress and congress includes laws that tell us to do that, we will do it.
▶ 1:37:27Sen. Blunt Rochester: I meet with our communities and local governments. We just did a beach tour. We have communities that in lewes, delaware, that need to elevate sanitary pumps or -- I want to make sure we are following the intention of white we as that's what we as senators and congresspeople representing our work is following up on, which leads me to two other questions and follow-up to
▶ 1:37:58Sen. Blunt Rochester: Senator alsobrooks. In october, the corps caused the $11 billion in projects, including two from delaware. We have been having challenges getting updates on those programs. One being -- I am sure you probably can't tell me specifically right now but I would love a commitment to get by next week an update on the oak orchard project.
▶ 1:38:26Sen. Blunt Rochester: And also I wanted to also confirm with you because I know there have been these pauses and you mentioned the shut down. Are the other paused projects, are they all from both democratic and republican states?
▶ 1:38:48Sec. Telle: Ma'am we don't --
▶ 1:38:53Sen. Blunt Rochester: I would hope you don't. You understand what I'm saying. Right now, importantly, I would hate to even ask this question but unfortunately, we have seen where whole lists of states have been included on projects in their only from states that represent democratic senators.
▶ 1:39:17Sen. Blunt Rochester: I just want to confirm because I would assume you are nonpartisan and may be dead I -- I would ask that you get back to me that russian as well.
▶ 1:39:30Sec. Telle: Our concern is the american public.
▶ 1:39:35Sen. Blunt Rochester: And so is ours. Lastly, I would also just say again, we support the work of the army corps. I have -- my sister is an industrial engineer. My brother-in-law is a nuclear engineer. My husband was a mechanical aerospace engineer. So we understand how important engineering is and how important it is, but we also have a job to do here, too.
▶ 1:40:04Sen. Blunt Rochester: We want to continue to work in partnership with you to make sure our communities and our states are also taking care of, especially in this very important time. Thank you.
▶ 1:40:12Chair Capito: Senator kelly.
▶ 1:40:15Sen. Kelly: Thank you both for being here. Mr. telle, the project in flagstaff, it is designed to protect the city from flooding. We have got bad wildfires in the region. We discussed this project during our nomination hearing. It has hit the 902 limit.
▶ 1:40:40Sen. Kelly: So for folks in the room that don't understand what that is, that means construction is on hold until the l.a. District completes the cost validation study and then that study has to be reauthorized in some sort of water bill to re--- to restart construction. You know this, Mr. telle. The nonfederal sponsor has been told the l.a. -- by the l.a.
▶ 1:41:05Sen. Kelly: District at this report will be completed and submitted to congress by may of 2026 so in about three or four months. In time to be included in this year's water bill. So let me just start with general graham, is that the time you're tracking for completion of the validation study?
▶ 1:41:22Lt. Gen. Graham: Thank you for the question. Yes, it is. The director's report is scheduled to be on my desk may of this year.
▶ 1:41:31Sen. Kelly: Secretary telle, we commit to making sure this study is submitted in time for wrda 2026?
▶ 1:41:41Sec. Telle: I believe, and I would check with the chairman, may 2026 will be sufficient time to have that included in wrda 2026. This is a project affected by real estate issues related to railroads as you well know. This is an issue the part of our building up a structure about how to solve some of these global real estate challenges.
▶ 1:42:05Sec. Telle: I think we can work with the railroad industry to have a better nationwide to have a better working relationship that will help projects like this one.
▶ 1:42:13Sen. Kelly: That is good news. It will be in time for wrda 2026. The winslow levy project, similar issue. Right now the entire city of winslow is in a floodplain and this project, this levy system will fix that. So let me quickly go to the timeline here. 2020, congress authorized the project. 2022, I secured the full federal match the project.
▶ 1:42:43Sen. Kelly: 2024, the arizona legislature stepped up and provided the full local match for the project. Once again, like the other one, this hit the 902 limit which means construction cannot start. General graham, when you expect the validation study for this one, the winslow levy project, will be completed and will this be in time for wrda 2026?
▶ 1:43:07Lt. Gen. Graham: No, I don't believe we will be able to get the dog mentation appear in that time -- documentation up here in that time. This is the behavior that we are working under building infrastructure not paperwork from a behavior we are trying to prevent -- it got authorized at roughly 5% design.
▶ 1:43:30Lt. Gen. Graham: So shockingly, when we start to exit put the real engineering behind what it is going to take to better protect winslow, we realize there is more and that is going to be more expensive. Acknowledge absolutely the challenge here is that basically around the town so we can just come up with let's just do a little piece because eventually the water will surrounded. So we have to do this the whole thing.
▶ 1:44:00Lt. Gen. Graham: That behavior of asking for authorization for projects when we don't have enough engineering to give you what a good cost estimate is, I own that. We are working hand-in-hand with the secretary's office to fix that. We will see if we can -- I'm not going to make wrda 2026. We will make a commitment to make wrda 2028.
▶ 1:44:23Sen. Kelly: Is there anything the local sponsor should have done differently? This is frustrating because it feels like they did everything right and now we are in this downward spiral of --
▶ 1:44:34Lt. Gen. Graham: We own that. We have to work hand-in-hand with the local sponsors. We will see if there are some options where they might be able to provide funds. But you try to get this over here by the end of may, I don't believe you're going to make it. I understand it is a challenge for this community, that they are vulnerable, and we will continue to work with the great sense of urgency to do what we can to offer protection.
▶ 1:44:58Sen. Kelly: How many projects nationwide are currently under nonzero to review?
▶ 1:45:02Lt. Gen. Graham: The number I have in my head is 29.
▶ 1:45:07Sen. Kelly: What you think that is as a percentage of all projects?
▶ 1:45:12Lt. Gen. Graham: We have thousands of projects, senator.
▶ 1:45:18Sen. Kelly: So it does not feel like a high percentage.
▶ 1:45:19Lt. Gen. Graham: Every one of those is a commitment we have made to this committee and we are not delivering on, so those are unacceptable as part of building infrastructure not paperwork, we are to take a look at every one of those nonzero to to see -- 902 to see what we've had to come back. A lot of this we have authorized with immature engineering but some is we just don't have the right team on it. We will take it look at that and if that is the case we will move into a different team or district.
▶ 1:45:48Sen. Kelly: It looks like with this one especially, it will be a scenario where to get it reauthorized it is going to take more time. In that period of time, cost will go up. It will hit a 902 limit again and then it will get reauthorized again and knew engineering and cost estimates grid and you wind up spiraling and you never get the project done.
▶ 1:46:07Lt. Gen. Graham: The spiral of doom that the secretary and are working with to get the core out of.
▶ 1:46:14Sen. Kelly: Thank you.
▶ 1:46:16Chair Capito: The chair thanks the member from arizona. The acting chair recognizes herself next. Joe, thank you so much for being here. I have a couple of questions read I will start with one about algae blooms. In my state of wyoming, we struggle with algae blooms in our reservoirs. These are working reservoirs.
▶ 1:46:40Chair Capito: So they support irrigation, drinking water, fisheries, and recreation. These harmful algae blooms that we have result in costly delays for communities and recreation. So through wrda 2012 for limitation, -- 2024, what have you learned about responding to harmful algae blooms, especially in western reservoirs?
▶ 1:47:09Chair Capito: The question is posed to both or either of you who wishes to respond.
▶ 1:47:15Lt. Gen. Graham: I wish algae blooms were only confined to the western states but we certainly have this throughout the country. It is a large challenge to all water resource agencies to include the core and we are very thankful for this committee and for congress to give us authority to do research and development on how to prevent these blooms. Break those down in a couple of buckets, we want to figure out how to detect them at the earliest age possible so we can see what to do to prevent them and in efforts to manage them.
▶ 1:47:47Lt. Gen. Graham: We are looking to find solutions that are scalable for the large reservoirs out in western states. We had some ongoing r&d efforts in the western states and we have some potential research opportunities in the future pending available funding.
▶ 1:48:02Chair Lummis: Do you ever work with groups like the national science foundation or research-oriented government agencies to kind of double your efforts on things like algae?
▶ 1:48:14Lt. Gen. Graham: We absolutely do work as a federal family on that. Sec. Telle, we leave this hearing, we will fly down the mississippi and go to our large research lab in vicksburg, mississippi where they are doing a lot of the cutting edge research on this. Most researchers there are incredibly well tied into the rest of the federal family as well as the state level.
▶ 1:48:35Chair Lummis: Thank you. Go with god on this one. It is an important issue to address in our nation, so thank you for your attention to that. Now I want to talk a little bit about snowpack, especially this year, where we are in real trouble in the colorado river basin and elsewhere due to an stork lack of snowfall.
▶ 1:49:02Chair Lummis: -- historic lack of snowfall. How does the core utilize soil moisture and snowpack monitoring authorities to improve long-term water supply forecasting and drought preparedness?
▶ 1:49:21Chair Lummis: I think we are here like 20 or 21 in terms of non-historically low flows into the colorado river basin in particular.
▶ 1:49:37Sec. Telle: This is a critically important point. One of the techniques we use -- we've been using for quite some time is called forecast operations where we take an existing piece of infrastructure. We look at the weather and look at what is headed our way. We can make risk informed decisions about how to operate reservoirs, squeeze the most water out of it for water supply purposes or hold them us back for flood risk mitigation purposes.
▶ 1:50:06Sec. Telle: I was in california recently and some communities in california were talking to me about how snowpack monitoring can be even more critical to the operation of their dam then forecasting formed reservoir operations. The technique done here is when there are no snow on the mountains and with the stone the mountains and we are able better than ever to understand the snow there or the lack thereof.
▶ 1:50:34Sec. Telle: So this is critically important because our infrastructure operators need as much information as they can possibly have, especially when water supply is low or floods or imminent to make decisions that don't waste water when we needed or don't release water and there's too much of it. This is a place where we have a lot of work to do in terms of the r&d. We are working on it now at the facility general rand it just reference. If we can do a lot more of this to make better use of the infrastructure that we have.
▶ 1:51:05Lt. Gen. Graham: We certainly are tracking the low to no snowpack out on the plains and the upper missouri watershed in the upper colorado watershed are of great concern to all of us. Water managers are watching that closely. Thank you for that question.
▶ 1:51:22Chair Lummis: Thank you for your responses. I look forward to working with you and other federal agencies who can provide guidance expertise, scientific research, and answers for those of us who are struggling with these important issues. Thank you, gentlemen, for being here today and for your service. The chair recognizes the gentleman from california Mr. schiff.
▶ 1:51:47Sen. Schiff: Thank you. I want to reiterate I think what has been said by some of my colleagues earlier, we want to arrive at another wrda reauthorization bill very bipartisan but when projects are canceled on a partisan basis and political basis, it makes it difficult to get to agreement on a new bill if we can't assume the report -- what we appropriate money for is going to be spent and utilized.
▶ 1:52:18Sen. Schiff: Last year, the army corps of engineers canceled several flood control projects for a particular in california and others in washington state. It looks like what we have seen in the cancellation of energy projects and other projects like it was targeting blue states let me ask you, in general, what was the rationale for canceling for california flood projects last year?
▶ 1:52:47Lt. Gen. Graham: Senator, what I am tracking on this, there were four projects on the sacramento river that had an excess carryover of funds. So they carried them in from last year into this year.
▶ 1:53:09Lt. Gen. Graham: And when we received money, the corps of engineers were supposed to obligate -- put that money to use back here and we had not done that. So those four projects, we are using that carryover money and putting that toward now.
▶ 1:53:25Sen. Schiff: Is it your testimony that it just happened to be in california and washington state, two blue states, that you found carryover funding that you could cancel, that that was not the case in the other state? Lt. Gen.
▶ 1:53:39Graham: I will defer to the assistant secretary for a broader discussion but those four projects from it was carryover funding that we were not using or we had not put that money to use that last year, so asking for more money when we had not used last year's and that amount of work we would not get to in this current year.
▶ 1:54:03Sen. Schiff: Are you going to use that money this year?
▶ 1:54:04Lt. Gen. Graham: 330 trillion dollars, yes.
▶ 1:54:09Sen. Schiff: So those four flood projects will go forward. I can have your word on that?
▶ 1:54:12Lt. Gen. Graham: Yes.
▶ 1:54:16Sen. Schiff: Let me ask you about something you gave your word on last year and that is the flood control project in the l.a. River ecosystem restoration project. Last september I think you testified in front of the house committee on transportation and infrastructure that the pack report for the project would be completed in time for wrda 2026.
▶ 1:54:52Sen. Schiff: Expressly designated for the specific purpose. We are now hearing the corps has defaulted. -- has halted work on the project. I understand from your testimony earlier that you have given us a justification for reneging on the commitment from last september that real estate costs have gone up in the region. Why isn't that merely incorporated in the report? Why is that a reason for not issuing?
▶ 1:55:18Lt. Gen. Graham: Thank you. Absolutely, I am not -- we are not able to deliver on the commitment I made to congress just back in september. We are not going to be able to get that document in front of the committee for wrda 26. I have walked that project at least twice the last five years.
▶ 1:55:42Lt. Gen. Graham: This is one of those challenging projects nonfederal sponsor level and we can't just seem to get it together.
▶ 1:55:53Sen. Schiff: Everybody understands nobody wants a giant concrete trapezoidal ditch in their backyard and there so much opportunity here in downtown los angeles to achieve the benefits this project is intended to pursue. The real estate costs --. >> they didn't balloon just in september.
▶ 1:56:19Sen. Schiff: We're talking about if you want to go so I was a possible september, why did you believe the point of committing to getting it done in september and now you're telling us you're not going to make that commitment? Are you testifying here that real estate prices changed that much since september, that that is the sole reason this is happening?
▶ 1:56:40Lt. Gen. Graham: That is not the sole reason, but it is a huge reason. Part of it is a larger acknowledgment on the corps's part for these large challenge projects, we really have to come up with a viable plan. I'm struggling to come up with a viable way forward on l.a. River ecosystem.
▶ 1:57:00Sen. Schiff: I will be very blunt, is this rationale about real estate costs since september in fact the reason why this report is not going to be completed or is it a political decision made not to go forward with this project?
▶ 1:57:18Chair Lummis: The gentlest time is expired. You may answer.
▶ 1:57:24Sen. Schiff: I would ask to answer.
▶ 1:57:25Lt. Gen. Graham: We are not political as you will know. My struggle with this project is just putting the pieces together to move it forward. >> so you have not been given a political instruction to cancel the project? Thank you, madam chair.
▶ 1:57:45Chair Lummis: The chair recognizes Mr. sullivan.
▶ 1:57:50Sen. Sullivan: . Mr. secretary, general, thank you for being here. Thank you for your responsiveness on a whole host of issues. Mr. secretary, I know you remember this in your confirmation hearing, the residence executive order unleashing alaska's extraordinary resource potential. The only state in the country that has got its own e.o. A lot of it to reverse the previous administration's lockdown on alaska.
▶ 1:58:19Sen. Sullivan: When I asked about all the different directions you guys are getting corps of engineers, you had probably one of the best answers I have ever heard in a confirmation hearing. He said, senator, I have already tattooed that section of the e.o. On my heart. Pretty good. Does that still tattooed on your heart?
▶ 1:58:40Sec. Telle: I read it last night in fact.
▶ 1:58:46Sen. Sullivan: From your heart?
▶ 1:58:46Sec. Telle: I don't even have to use paper anymore.
▶ 1:58:51Sen. Sullivan: Let me first complement you guys. You know I'm going to go to the juneau issue because it is a really, really, really big issue. I will admit it is a challenging issue. It is the kind of issue the core of engineers is perfectly designed for when you look at the corps's history because it is literally thousands of homes being flooded every summer. It probably will happen again this summer.
▶ 1:59:15Sen. Sullivan: This very kind of unique glacier outburst that happens every summer. By the way, it is incredible that no one has been killed because I have been out there the last two summers right after this has happened and talked to the homeowners. I talked to some just a couple of days ago when I was in juneau. It is remarkable, particularly two summers ago, middle of the night, giant flood, freezing water all over and nobody was killed. Thank god.
▶ 1:59:45Sen. Sullivan: But a lot of property is at risk and currently at risk. So I want to compliment you initially because you guys have been very responsive. You been responsive Mr. secretary, general commune your team, when I asked you guys to work on this last year around this time, you got the barriers of quick -- by the way, save the whole community. Kind of amazing. So how close the floods -- those various works. We want to keep that without jinxing it because we're probably going to need them again this summer.
▶ 2:00:15Sen. Sullivan: And then you come up with a happened, you guys surged were brigadier general. I went out there. There were there for a week. It was really, really, really good. And then I was in juneau just last week and met with the chamber of commerce. I read them the text you sent me. I appreciate the text.
▶ 2:00:37Sen. Sullivan: It said, hey, we're working on this, we are not -- we want to make sure that it is a quicker solution than some things were looking at. Just lately, I will tell you this was an article from the juneau independent yesterday, madam chair, I would like to submit this for the record. -- this is a giant issue as you can imagine in juneau. Can I submit is for the record?
▶ 2:01:03Chair Lummis: Without objection, so ordered.
▶ 2:01:06Sen. Sullivan: Rescinds promise to pursue leg cap as long-term flood solutions "disheartening pivot leaves the juneau leaders a bit speechless as assessment of worst-case flood scenario rises significantly." look, a lot of times things happen where the transparency isn't -- isn't as good as it should be but now there is real frustration in the community.
▶ 2:01:37Sen. Sullivan: In december, the lake cap became the preferred option. People thought there was momentum building. And the concern is in juneau is the core has pulled back on quite without clearly explaining the change in the direction to the community. What I want to do here is I want to be able to put that issue to rest. I know people in juneau are literally watching this hearing. It is that big of a deal.
▶ 2:02:07Sen. Sullivan: There is a real frustration in the community. I think with transparency -- look, I trust you guys. You have been on it. And a clear path forward with tangible progress on a long-term solution, can you confirm to me the corps is committed to delivering a durable, long-term solution to juneau as quickly as possible and that we are also ready for the short term?
▶ 2:02:36Sen. Sullivan: Again, we will probably have -- their estimates of record flooding again this summer we had then, finally, working on the wrda bill. I guarantee you my colleagues here because I've explained this to them on both sides of the aisle, if you guys had big tasks in the wrda bill, I've already cut to the chairman, I think democrat and republican colleagues would be flexible with me to give you authorities you need to really attack this, including the money -- which would be significant, but on the other hand, like I
▶ 2:03:09Sen. Sullivan: Said, this is what the corps of engineers was designed for. We have people who are going to be flooded every summer up to thousands of people in the mendenhall valley. Can both of you talk about that? Look, a lot of times -- I think my colleagues know and madam chair, if you will just work with me here, I know I'm going over my time limit, but this is a really important issue. I will come and rip the hell out of witnesses, democrat or republican, I think they are not keeping their word. I don't think that is the case with you guys.
▶ 2:03:40Sen. Sullivan: I've a lot of faith in you, Mr. secretary general, both of you. I know you have been really committed to this but -- I don't fully understand why because I was just in juneau. There is this perception that things are going dark, people are nervous again, that the corps is not engaged. I just want you to maybe clear that up. Once again, commit to me we are going to work this, this is a challenging issue.
▶ 2:04:08Sen. Sullivan: Speed, time, urgency, short-term, medium-term and long-term -- kind of like what your text said. I did read the text. By the way, I appreciate the text. You knew I was going to juneau. I told you and your team. I want to clarify this. Maybe it will take maybe another meeting, zoom or something with leadership in the juneau community, me, you guys, but I kind of want to put this to rest because I know you're committed but the transparency -- look,
▶ 2:04:38Sen. Sullivan: People get nervous. If it were your home getting ready to be flooded with the third summer in a row, geez louise, I would be nervous, right? So a lot of people are stressed about this. I have committed to them and my team and I have been working on this very diligently. I think you have, too. But it would be a really good opportunity right now for both of you to clear this up. Again, if you need more come it is kind of perfect timing.
▶ 2:05:06Sen. Sullivan: We are working on wrda right now. Mr. secretary, can you address that first? I know you knew I was going ask about it. This isn't like the fake news. This was in the paper yesterday. People really are concerned it is kind of going dark.
▶ 2:05:25Chair Lummis: The gentlemen's time has expired but I do ask the witnesses to respond.
▶ 2:05:39Sec. Telle: You have to indulge me because I have a lot to say. When we have talked about this in the past and private and a public, every time I've called you just told you I'm committed to delivering short, medium, long-term option.
▶ 2:05:55Sen. Sullivan: And your text said that as well.
▶ 2:05:57Sec. Telle: I have said that very thing the last time I was here in september. That continues to be true. I will say it again and I will make sure our entire enterprise can hear me and at the division can hear me and ela alaska divin can hear me. We are committed. This is a unique challenge. Something as you said is a technical challenge. It is very difficult.
▶ 2:06:28Sec. Telle: In my office at the pentagon, I have maps of juneau, alaska spread out on my table. I know how suicide glacier intersects with mendenhall glacier and I know the flood pool at the base of mendenhall glacier. I know the outlet that runs on the west side of juneau. General graham and I talk about this on most every day.
▶ 2:06:48Sec. Telle: We have got some work to do because we have to make sure our pacific ocean's division and alaska district understands the president's executive order which you referenced -- I think part of building infrastructure not paperwork initiative we rolled out this week is about freeing our commanders and our engineers from assumptions -- sometimes we ask the question of our engineers, hey, the only laws I want you to focus on right now are the laws of physics.
▶ 2:07:19Sec. Telle: Then we can talk about how we can work within the authorities and the laws this committee provides to deliver for the public. That is the case here. We have to think about the laws of physics first because this is going to require a solution that will be unique. That is why long, medium, short -- short, medium come along is critical in the situation because long is going to be too long.
▶ 2:07:43Sen. Sullivan: I appreciate your text. Some of the solutions -- you said this, I think it will take too long and I don't wanted to be that long. I appreciate that sentiment.
▶ 2:07:52Sec. Telle: I will just say just to give an example and to give some relief to the citizens of juneau who are worried about this, I met with the city of fargo, north dakota yesterday. Wonderful community. Perhaps as much as any community in america, they had a flood issue in fargo and they worked with us to figure out a public-private partnership unlike any solution we have ever experienced.
▶ 2:08:18Sec. Telle: I asked the mayor fargo, hey, fargo and juneau, similar latitudes. Similar sized towns. Critically important. Would you mind mentoring and providing the sample district, can we go up to juneau on a resume? I'm trying to some of the most creative processes we have ever employed to help the people of juneau. I think senator sullivan, we plan to be out there in the next few weeks to focus on this issue. Lt. Gen.
▶ 2:08:47Sec. Telle: Kelly and I were just talking about our plans to head out there and work with general goetz and colonel polysemy out there. We have to get on the same page across our organization so make sure we're delivering reliable -- a reliable answer to you and the citizens of juneau. General graham, I know you have other things.
▶ 2:09:07Sen. Sullivan: Thank you for indulging me on these long questions and answers. They are really important. Really, really, really big issue to my constituents. I want to give them assurance. Look, I think a lot of this is miscommunication, both within the fed, department, and some of the alaskans.
▶ 2:09:27Sen. Sullivan: But also probably within the corps, too, and I'm glad you mentioned not just you guys headquarters here but the pacific division and why in the alaska dilute -- alaska division.
▶ 2:09:39Chair Lummis: Very briefly.
▶ 2:09:41Lt. Gen. Graham: I think this is actually -- where we are at right now is we were working collaboratively. Everybody was seeing our homework with that is not done. That is my sense of this. The guidance I gave the district is it is too soon to take any options off the table because what we are wrestling with most here is a time. As you heard the city engineer talk yesterday, the floods make it up to 22.5 feet and that is well over --
▶ 2:10:14Sen. Sullivan: We have to figure that out. Pretty scary.
▶ 2:10:17Lt. Gen. Graham: This is rough, rough order with six years per tunnel. I'm going to put a whole bunch of contingency time on digging a tunnel through solid rock. So maybe somewhere between six to 10 years. When will the current barriers be overwhelmed. So as Mr.
▶ 2:10:40Lt. Gen. Graham: Telle spoke to, which a look at an intermediate solution to see what efficacy that might have. The time and money we can do everything. I am really concerned we just don't have enough time. That is engineering this report is going to lay out which is how much time do we have and take a look at all of those options, all five options to see what is best going to serve those 2000 homes down in the valley.
▶ 2:11:10Lt. Gen. Graham: -- 2855 homes in the valley.
▶ 2:11:17Sen. Sullivan: I will get back to my constituents. Thank you. You have been responsive and sometimes we get communication gaps and people are nervous and I don't blame them for being nervous but this is a good answer, good hearing. Adam chair, I'm sorry I went so long but super important issue for me. We'll continue to work with you guys. The need for speed from short, medium, long-term and again, on the wrda side, let us know if you need authorities or many to get this going.
▶ 2:11:46Sen. Sullivan: We are drafting the bill right now. I'm confident I can get stuff related to juneau in the legislation. Thank you again.
▶ 2:11:52Chair Lummis: The chair recognizes the ranking member senator whitehouse who I understand is joining us virtually today. He is snowed in in his home state. If you are available to us virtually, senator whitehouse, you are now recognized.
▶ 2:12:15Sen. Whitehouse: Thank you. I appreciate it. I just wanted to close out with my gratitude to the epw team for allowing me to participate remotely. I'm looking out my window right now and guess what's happening? More snow. Could not get better. We will see when I get down there but I really appreciate everyone's courtesy. E Mr.
▶ 2:12:36Sen. Whitehouse: Tell, I'm grateful you're focusing on the coastal aspect and I would just make the observation that the additional spending and the additional work and attention on coastal supplemental spending is probably a sign the baseline is not up to snuff at this point. That it takes an emergency to get that attention to the coast.
▶ 2:13:03Sen. Whitehouse: I look forward to working with you to try to get that solved for once and for all. I think you also heard an array of communications problems, particularly down our side of the aisle, so every step you can take to improve the army corps's communication with us would be appreciated. Thank you very much.
▶ 2:13:25Chair Lummis: Question for you, senator whitehouse, can you tell us a little bit about what you've have experienced in this blizzard and how it is affecting your state?
▶ 2:13:36Sen. Whitehouse: Is the biggest snowfall in rhode island history. The legendary 1978, we have blown through that. As I mentioned at the beginning, the guy who usually cost my driveway got snowed in and could not get his snowplow out.
▶ 2:13:55Sen. Whitehouse: Last night fairly good sized pickup truck with a snowplow supported by a front end loader were unable to get through the accumulated snow. They got about, I don't know, 15 feet into the driveway and it came to an end. Very unusual conditions.
▶ 2:14:23Sen. Whitehouse: It just requires in order to clear things much bigger equipment than most people have. A lot of people in rhode island expect snow and they have a pick up and they have a snowplow and they go around and plow things and this is overwhelming that cohort of response. So the big equipment is what is needed and there is a lot of demand for it. Obviously. A lot of sidestreets are still not plowed.
▶ 2:14:53Sen. Whitehouse: People are getting through it because we do. But it is a very unusual situation for rhode island to be in. The providence measure was 37 inches of snow. Of course then it blows around. A lot of places are more than 37 inches.
▶ 2:15:11Chair Lummis: We wish you and your colleagues a speedy recovery. Mother nature is an awesome, awesome sister.
▶ 2:15:20Sen. Whitehouse: Sure is.
▶ 2:15:22Chair Lummis: Again, thank you for participating virtually. With no further questions, I would like to thank the witnesses and all my colleagues for your participation in today's hearing. Senators who wish to submit written requests for the record have until 5:00 p.m. On wednesday, march 11 to do so. The witnesses responses to those questions are due back to the committee no later than 5:00 p.m.
▶ 2:15:51Chair Lummis: On wednesday, march 25 and will be submitted for the record. With that, and our thanks again to the witnesses, this hearing is adjourned. [captioning performed by the national captioning institute, which is responsible for its caption content and accuracy. Visit ncicap.org]