▶ 0:19:13Chair Murkowski: Good afternoon. We will call the searing to order. Today we are examining federal policies associated with indian water rights. We will have an opportunity to review s. 953, northeastern arizona indian water rights settlement act of 2025 that are introduced by our colleague, senator kelly. Welcome to the committee, senator. The street or water rights have entered in the american west.
▶ 0:19:42Chair Murkowski: In regions where water is precious, questions about you is entitled to use it and in what quantity have shaped communities, economies, and landscapes. Tribal water rights are essential to the story. Beginning with the supreme court's landmark decision in winters versus the united states, federal law has recognized that when the united states establishes indian reservations, it implicitly reserves sufficient water to fill the purposes of those reservations.
▶ 0:20:09Chair Murkowski: These are aware of the rights are not simply policy choices, they arise from treaties, federal actions, and the trust responsibility to tribal nations. Congress shares in the ability to make sure those commitments are honored. At the same time, tribal water rights claims creates uncertainty that extends beyond reservation boundaries.
▶ 0:20:35Chair Murkowski: States, municipalities, irrigation district, farmers, ranchers, and many others depend on clear and reliable water allocations. When claims go unresolved, uncertainty can stall economic development, complicate water management, and strained relationships. That is why negotiated settlements have long been recognized as the preferred path forward. Settlements allow parties to come together to craft durable solutions rather than spending decades in costly and uncertain litigation.
▶ 0:21:05Chair Murkowski: As many in the west say, settlements deliver whatwet just paper rights. They provide tribe with the infrastructure and resources new to actually access and use their water while also providing certainty and stability for nontribal users who depend on the same systems. I appreciate that this administration has reaffirmed what many of us have long believed. Whenever possible, negotiated settlements are preferable to litigation.
▶ 0:21:35Chair Murkowski: But we must also acknowledge a growing challenge. The federal cost associated with indian water rights settlements have increased dramatically in recent years. During development of the bipartisan infrastructure law, we focused on the delays that have plagued already authorized settlements, and we created the indian water rights settlement completion fund and provided $2.5 billion to help complete settlements that had been approved but lacked funding to move forward.
▶ 0:22:06Chair Murkowski: 17 settlements receive support from that fund, finally fishing work that had been pending for years or even decades. The bill that we are considering today come in northeastern arizona indian water rights settlement act is a reminder that that job is not done. It seeks to resolve decades of litigation that has left the navajo nation, hopi tribe, and the san juan southern paiute tribe tied up in disputes over the waters of the colorado river.
▶ 0:22:36Chair Murkowski: For those tribes, the settlement is enormously important. The lack of access to clean water in native communities should shock us as americans, particularly the effect on health. We remember the disproportionate impact of covid-19 across indian country where in adequate water and sanitation contributed to unconscionably high death rates of native people. Reliable access to clean water is foundational for public health and every aspect of life including long-term economic opportunity.
▶ 0:23:07Chair Murkowski: This bill will also provide a certainty for all water users in arizona who depend on the colorado river system. But it is estimated federal cost approximately 5 billion dollars is also double but be allocated under the infrastructure law. This is not the only water settlement proposal before congress either. There are at least seven others under discussion with more likely to follow. So the question before us is clear.
▶ 0:23:37Chair Murkowski: How do we continue to meet our solemn trust and treaty responsibilities while maintaining fiscal responsibility and balancing the many, many priorities that are facing indian country? That is the conversation we must have as we consider this legislation and think more broadly about the future of indian water right settlements in the years ahead. With that, I turn to our vice chairman, senator schatz.
▶ 0:24:01Sen. Schatz: Thank you, chair murkowski, for campaigning today's hearing, to discuss s. 953 and to hear the administration's view on indian water right settlements. It is an acceptable tribal communities of the 21st century still lack access to clean running water on their own lands, even though delivering water to tribal communities is a critical part of the trust response ability.
▶ 0:24:25Sen. Schatz: Congress's obligation is to consider legislation that codifies water right settlements and it is not optional. It's critical that the final -- is the critical final step to ensuring our trust response beliefs are met. The tribes testifying today have done their part.
▶ 0:24:43Sen. Schatz: They have spent decades in litigation, they have come to the negotiating table in good faith, they have made hard compromises and worked alongside states, indian and non-indian users, and federal agencies to produce finalized agreements. This is an extraordinary undertaking and deserves an extraordinary response from this congress. I have heard colleagues expressed concerns about the price tag of the settlements. I understand fiscal responsibility remains a priority, but in action carries a real risk.
▶ 0:25:15Sen. Schatz: Every year that congress fails to authorize and fund settlement agreements is another year that tribes and water users are faced with water uncertainty. We cannot ask drive to do the work of reaching a settlement and then leave them waiting indefinitely because congress cannot resolve its own disagreements over funding. Let's consider the alternative to funding water settlements. Years of continued litigation, federal and state taxpayer expense with no guarantees that the tribes will get what they are owed.
▶ 0:25:42Sen. Schatz: When a court decision does come down, tribes still need to secure the funds from congress. By that time in some cases after decades, cost will only have grown. The federal government's liability does not disappear because we have declined to act. So the question before this committee is not whether we can afford to fund the settlements, it is how we fund them. Congress has enacted 39 indian water rights settlements with only 25 of them being fully funded.
▶ 0:26:11Sen. Schatz: 14 more are pending before us, totaling more than $12 billion. Another 13 tribes are in active negotiations with interior and moving toward settlement. An action is not an option. I urge my colleagues to move pending settlements like s. 953 forward, authorize them, fund them. Give tribes and states and water users in these basins certainty that they need not just for today but for generations to come. Tribes have held up their end of the bargain, it is long past time for congress to hold up hours.
▶ 0:26:43Sen. Schatz: I want to thank the chairman for convening this hearing and the witnesses were being here today.
▶ 0:26:46Chair Murkowski: Thank you, vice chair. I think we both recognize the obligation. It is how we get there and that is why we are having these discussions today. With that, as I mentioned, we have senator kelly here to make some remarks on his bill, but also to introduce the witnesses that we will have with us from arizona. Senator kelly, the floor is yours.
▶ 0:27:12Sen. Kelly: Thank you, chair murkowski, vice chairman schatz, thank you for holding today's hearing on the northeastern arizona indian water rights settlement act. It's my honor to introduce navajo president buu nygren, hopi german lamar keevama, san juan southern paiute president johnny lehi. President nygren was elected to serve as the tent navajo nation president in november 2022.
▶ 0:27:45Sen. Kelly: President nygren has a doctorate from the university of southern california. He has been leading the navajo nation through the negotiation of the northeastern arizona indian water rights settlement. Chairman keevama was elected to lead the hopi tribe council in 2025 before has a multi-term council member, worked extensively on water rights, energy policy, and economic development.
▶ 0:28:10Sen. Kelly: He previously served as the manager of the hopi cultural center and as the director of the hopi tribe economic developer corporation, reflecting a long record of leadership and service to the hopi people. Vice president lehi currently serves as the vice president of the san juan southern paiute tribe. He was first elected to the council in may of 2022 and served as president prior to his current role.
▶ 0:28:41Sen. Kelly: Vice president lehi is serving, as did his father, johnny lehi senior, who was on the tribal council when the tribe was originally recognized in december 1989, and who was the tribes president when he negotiated and signed the land treaty in 2000. Access to clean, reliable water shouldn't be a question in the united states, but it still is for far too many families in northeastern arizona.
▶ 0:29:10Sen. Kelly: On navajo nation alone, roughly one in three homes does not have running water. The hopi and southern san juan paiute communities basis similar challenges. This settlement is a major step forward securing the tribes' water future while providing certainty for the entire colorado river basin.
▶ 0:29:35Sen. Kelly: Without it, uncertainty over tribal water claims will persist , affecting not only the tribes but also the communities across the region that depend on clean, clear and reliable water management. I also want to thank this committee for the hearing that you held on a previous version of this legislation in 2024. That hearing helped surface important questions from members and stakeholders.
▶ 0:30:04Sen. Kelly: Since then, the tribes, state of arizona, and other partners, have continued working to strengthen the agreement. The result is the updated legislation before us today. It is built on years of negotiation and supported by more than 30 parties across the region. Finally, president nygren, chairman keevama, vice president lehi, I want to thank you for your commitment to your communities.
▶ 0:30:32Sen. Kelly: This is a large and complex agreement and you and your teams deserve recognition for the decades of persistence, collaboration, and dedication it took to reach this point. I urge my colleagues to support this important bill as it moves through the committee process.
▶ 0:30:52Sen. Kelly: I will also be submitting dozens of letters of support from stakeholders across northeastern arizona that underscore the critical importance of this legislation and the broad coalition that supports the settlement. Again, chair murkowski, vice chairman schatz, thank you for holding the hearing today on this important and historic legislation. Thank you.
▶ 0:31:13Chair Murkowski: Thank you, senator kelly. Appreciate not only the introductions of those who will be on the panel but your leadership in this, and your effort over the years. We know you have a lot of things on your schedule this afternoon, so I understand that you'll probably be leaving us. Thank you for that. I also want to welcome to the committee and the panelists this afternoon Mr. scott cameron with the department of the interior. Mr.
▶ 0:31:42Chair Murkowski: Cameron has a couple of titles, he is the principal deputy assistant secretary for water and signs and exercising the delegated authority of commissioner, bureau of reclamation. As the witnesses please come to the table here. I will just remind you that your full written testimony will be made part of the official hearing record.
▶ 0:32:08Chair Murkowski: We are asking folks to try to keep testimony to the five minutes so that we have full opportunity for engagement back and forth this very important matter. Again, to those who were introduced by senator kelly, I had my -- add my welcome to you and my thanks and gratitude for the work that you have been doing, as senator kelly mentioned.
▶ 0:32:41Chair Murkowski: We have had an opportunity to hear this issue before this committee previously and set you away with homework. You are back now to report on that. I appreciate the work that each of you, and the dedication that each of you bring to the table here. We will begin with testimony on your end of the table, Mr. cameron, if you would like to lead off, please.
▶ 0:33:10Mr. Cameron: Thank you very much. Good afternoon, chairman murkowski, vice chairman schatz, my name is scott cameron, and I am the principal deputy assistant secretary for water and science at the department of interior and I'm exercising the delegated authority of the commission a bureau of reclamation. Really appreciate the opportunity to testify on indian water rights settlements and in particular s. 953, northeastern arizona indian water rights settlement act.
▶ 0:33:39Mr. Cameron: The department supports the long-standing policy that negotiated indian water rights settlements are preferable to protracted and divisive litigation. Settlements can resolve long-standing claims, provide certainty to water users, promote tribal sovereignty and self sufficiency, and support of the element of water infrastructure that improves conditions on and off reservations.
▶ 0:34:04Mr. Cameron: They also foster cooperation among water users within a watershed while protecting infrastructure, investments, and communities and economies that rely on them. The department's participation in settlement negotiations is guided by the federal government's 1990 criteria and procedures from the negotiation of indian water rights claims. These criteria reflect four principles. First, settlements must be consistent with the united states trust response abilities.
▶ 0:34:34Mr. Cameron: Indian tribes must receive second, equivalent benefits in exchange for the rights they, release as part of a settlement. Third, indian tribes must obtain the ability to realize value from confirmed water rights. Finally settlements must contain , an appropriate cost-share by parties that benefit. Congress plays an essential role as this committee knows an approving indian water right settlements. The department stands ready to work with this committee to support settlement negotiations.
▶ 0:35:04Mr. Cameron: We are also committed to implementing enacted settlements as necessary funding is available. With approximately $13 billion in indian water right settlements pending before congress, it's important that settling parties have realistic expectations regarding the level of federal funding s. 953.
▶ 0:35:22Mr. Cameron: Addresses water rights claims across approximately 11.5 million acres in northeast arizona which is home to more than 100 thousand members of the navajo nation, hopi tribe, and san juan southern paiute tribe. The bill would modify and negotiate among the tribes, state of arizona, and more than 20 are the parties. That is clearly impressive.
▶ 0:35:44Mr. Cameron: It would quantify the tribes water rights in arizona including rights associated with the colorado river in both the upper and lower basins and provide waivers for claims along the parties. S. 953 would also provide approximately $5.1 billion in mandatory funding to implement the settlement and direct the secretary to plan, design, and construct a pipeline to help deliver reliable drinking water supplies to tribal communities.
▶ 0:36:14Mr. Cameron: The legislation would establish tribal trust funds and allocate certain upper basin colorado river water to the navajo nation and hopi tribe. It would authorize those tribes to use that water on reservation lands in the lower basin in arizona and allow them to lease a portion of the upper basin colorado river water rights within arizona for a limited period of time.
▶ 0:36:37Mr. Cameron: In addition, the bill would ratify a treaty between the navajo nation and the san juan southern paiute tribe and establish a reservation for the paiute tribe, lance currently held in trust as part of the navajo reservation. If enacted, s. 953 would become part of the broader framework governing the colorado river.
▶ 0:36:56Mr. Cameron: Over the past year, the tribes have worked closely with the department and reclamation staff , state of arizona, and the upper basin states to address implementation issues associated with these provisions and to ensure the framework can function within future colorado river operations.
▶ 0:37:15Mr. Cameron: The department supports increased flexibility and marketability of water in both basins and recognizes the importance of allowing tribes to use, store, and lease their water rights in support of tribal self-determination. While the department certainly supports the goals of s. 953, we do have real concerns with the overall cost of the settlement.
▶ 0:37:38Mr. Cameron: We appreciate the tribes's we appreciate the tribes' efforts to address cost increases, we are working with the bill sponsor and the committee to identify opportunities to reduce cost while maintaining a settlement's core objectives. The department looks forward to working with the tribes, bill sponsors, and the committee to address these issues and move toward a resolution of these long-standing water rights claims. Thank you.
▶ 0:38:08Mr. Cameron: I'm happy to answer any questions.
▶ 0:38:09Chair Murkowski: Thank you, Mr. cameron. President nygren, welcome.
▶ 0:38:15Mr. Nygren: Chairwoman murkowski, vice chairman schatz, I am Dr. buu nygren, president of the navajo nation. I'm also joined by navajo nation speakers. Thank you as well for the opportunity to testify on support of s. 953. Thank you also to senators kelley, gallego for sponsoring this legislation. The navajo nation is the largest indigenous nation in the country.
▶ 0:38:43Mr. Nygren: We provide critical governmental services to over 420,000 tribal members, half of whom live on the reservation. Our reservation is approximately the size of west virginia, roughly, as mentioned earlier, a third of navajo households lack running water. I also grew up without running water. This picture to my right remind me of how difficult it is to live on the navajo nation. As you can tell, you have family members with a gallon buckets of water.
▶ 0:39:14Mr. Nygren: I remember hauling buckets of water in a car daily when I would travel with my mom and grandma. Thousands of our people continue to haul water over 30 miles round trip meet daily water demands. Hauling water is expensive. It also costs on average $600 per month for a family to haul water, and countless hours for each trip. This is crippling for the many who live below the poverty line on the navajo nation.
▶ 0:39:46Mr. Nygren: Congress must act to end the water crisis. The funding and the settlement represents a considerable investment of federal dollars to end this crisis. The united states will receive valuable consideration in return. We tribes are weaving our water rights claims in the colorado river basin. In this year's version of the updated settlement, we are also providing a tool for improving the lake powell reserve levels.
▶ 0:40:13Mr. Nygren: The cost is approximately 25% less per tribal member than previously congressional enacted indian water settlements. Given the large populations and large reservations, the major water rights claims being settled, this is a cost effective settlement that provides significant benefits to the federal government and the american taxpayer. Several of the upper basin states have submitted testimony indicating they continued to have unresolved concerns with our settlement.
▶ 0:40:43Mr. Nygren: Some of those concerns are tied to tribes being able to lease our arizona colorado river upper basin water to the lower basin in arizona. Some states are apparently concerned because of this potentially setting the precedent. This concern is without merit. The navajo nation is the only indian tribe in both the upper and lower colorado river basin. Moreover, it is literally taking an act of congress to authorize this use.
▶ 0:41:11Mr. Nygren: There is no way for this to happen again because there is no other tribe besides navajo in this position. In an attempt to address the upper basin's concerns, the tribes have agreed in s. 953 to ensure leasing is temporary. We also set limits on the amount of water we may lease.
▶ 0:41:31Mr. Nygren: The tribes have agreed to create a water saving school in lake powell by contributing 17,050 acre-feet per year for 20 years which will benefit all upper basin states and the federal government by protecting critical infrastructure in lake powell. Notably, this is one half of the amount of water that was formally used for decades by the navajo generating station.
▶ 0:41:57Mr. Nygren: The closer ofngs was economically devastating to the navajo nation and hopi tribe. It is hard to imagine that any upper basin state would object to my people being able to use water that they have used for decades simply because of the fear of a potential precedent.
▶ 0:42:18Mr. Nygren: Reasons suggest the upper basin states would understand that ngs' closure was not the fault of the tribes and recognize that tribally proposed uses under the settlement of the water that was previously used by ngs is not the judgment. Unfortunately, the amount of water, ultimately the amount of water is an issue for the upper basin states as relatively insignificant but the revenue the tribes will be able to generate by leasing their water to help pay for potential funding shortfalls for water infrastructure is incredibly significant.
▶ 0:42:49Mr. Nygren: We remain willing to work with the upper basin states and we have made significant progress with some states including the state of new mexico, but the tribes believe we have already given enough and should be able to use our water as other settlement tribes have been able to do in the past. Your leadership in securing a safe, stable water supply for our nations will be felt for generations to come.
▶ 0:43:15Mr. Nygren: I respectfully urge the committee to swiftly pass this bill and ensure water security for all in our region. I'm also happy to answer any questions today. Thank you.
▶ 0:43:25Chair Murkowski: Thank you you, president nygren. We will next turn to chairman keevama.
▶ 0:43:34Mr. Keevama: Chairman murkowski, vice chair schatz, members of the senate committee on indian affairs, thank you for holding this hearing and or allow me to testify in support of s. 953, the northeastern arizona indian water right settlement act of 2025. My name is lamar keevama. I am from the village of kykotsmovi village. I have the honor of serving as the chairman of the hopi tribe.
▶ 0:44:04Mr. Keevama: The hopi people are the most ancient inhabitants of northeastern arizona. Archaeological evidence in our all history both confirmed that our people have lived on these lands since time immemorial. According to hopi teachings, when our ancestors emerged into this world, they encountered woodland, who we refer to as the original caretaker. He blessed the hopi people and instructed them to live as humble farmers and stewards of the land. A covenant was established.
▶ 0:44:34Mr. Keevama: One that calls on the hopi people to remain and care for our homeland. The hopi reservation was intended to be a permanent homeland for our people, yet, the federal government landlocked my people, surrounding us with the navajo nation and cutting us off from necessary water resources. As a result, the hopi reservation has extremely limited water, creating immense challenges for those living on the reservation.
▶ 0:45:03Mr. Keevama: Despite living in one of the most arid regions of the country , the hopi people adapted and developed farming methods that made use of every drop of water. Floodwater fields, seepage fields, and carefully managed agricultural systems adapted to the land. These practices remain central to our culture and identity to date.
▶ 0:45:29Mr. Keevama: But even with that knowledge of resilience, we cannot overcome today's growing water scarcity alarms. The northeastern arizona indian water rights settlement represents a historic effort to address these challenges. Through collaboration among tribal governments, the state of arizona, federal government, and local stakeholders across northeastern arizona, the settlement provides sustainable water future for the hopi people and water certainty for our neighbors.
▶ 0:46:00Mr. Keevama: The historic importance of the settlement between navajo and hopi cannot be understated. Among its key elements, the settlement confirmed the hopi tribe's water rights and provides access to additional water supplies including colorado river water which is the only source of renewable water to ensure the tribes future.
▶ 0:46:21Mr. Keevama: It also establishes cooperative agreements between the hopi tribe and navajo nation to protect shared ground water resources and manage them sustainably for generations to come. Just as important, the legislation authorizes major investments in water infrastructure. Today, water infrastructure is either aging or nonexistent. 30% of those living on the hopi reservation do not have running water and must haul water to their homes.
▶ 0:46:54Mr. Keevama: This legislation will fund critical infrastructure projects such as wells, pipelines, treatment systems, and storage facilities gthat are necessary to deliver safe and reliable water to our communities. For the hopi people, water is not simply a resource, it's sacred. It is a spirit with life. Our prayers, ceremonies, and way of life are tied to the water and land.
▶ 0:47:22Mr. Keevama: This settlement is more than a legal agreement, it's a path forward. It allows the hopi tribe to remain and protect our homeland, support economic development, and ensures our communities have the basic resources necessary to thrive. It will bring certainty and stability to the broader colorado river basin by resolving long-standing water claims through a cooperation rather than decades of costly litigation.
▶ 0:47:53Mr. Keevama: The hopi people have lived in northeastern arizona for more than 1000 years. With reliable water and modern infrastructure, we can ensure that my people can continue to live and practice our way of life on our homeland for the next 1000 years. Thank you again for the opportunity to testify. I look forward to answer your questions.
▶ 0:48:12Chair Murkowski: Thank you, chairman keep an eye. Next we turn to vice president lehi. Welcome.
▶ 0:48:21Mr. Lehi: My name is johnny lehi junior, vice president of the san juan southern paiute tribe. Thank you, chairman murkowski, ranking member schatz. For allowing us to testify today on senate bill s. 953, northeastern arizona indian water rights settlement act. Thank you to senator kelly and senator gallego for their support.
▶ 0:48:45Mr. Lehi: The committee will hear a lot about numbers today, how much settlements cost, dollar amount per person, per acre per project. I wish I was able to provide you with something that could be quantified in dollars but there is no way to measure what this legislation means to the san juan southern paiute people. S.
▶ 0:49:06Mr. Lehi: 953 provides water for our tribal members but also ratifies a 26-year-old treaty that establishes san juan southern paiute tribe's exclusion from the reservation. For the paiute people and their homeland, its prices. My family has lived there for generations. 26 years ago, my family watched a historic promise being made.
▶ 0:49:31Mr. Lehi: My grandmother helped negotiate with a remit of the navajo nation and former president johnny lehi senior signed a treaty with them on march 18, 2000, where I was president. Now many years later, we are still waiting for that treaty to be ratified for our reservation to be created.
▶ 0:49:56Mr. Lehi: Now many years later we are still waiting for that treaty to be ratified and for a reservation/ our elders including my father carried our tribe through survival, recognition and the parents , grandparents of my council and these chambers spent their lives fighting for our people to have a homeland. Many have passed on. That is why this moment matters so much to me, my, and our elders.
▶ 0:50:27Mr. Lehi: Today, the paiute tribe is the only federally recognized tribe in arizona without exclusive reservation that affects daily life. We have families with multiple generations in two-bedroom trailers without running water and without electricity. Without a land base, it can be impossible to build homes, find communities, maintained roads, or provide services.
▶ 0:50:54Mr. Lehi: Being a landless also means we miss opportunities that our tribes can access, exclusive reservation allows us to apply for housing, economic development funding that requires a land-based. Without a reservation for my people have lived for generations as outsiders in our own homeland. We have been told we don't belong and to stop speaking a language and honoring our traditions, but that has not stopped us.
▶ 0:51:21Mr. Lehi: The land treaty was negotiated to create a permanent homeland for our tribe to resolve long-standing litigations still stayed in the ninth circuit but only becomes effective after ratification by congress and the signature of the secretary of interior. That has not happened yet. S. 953 carries that promise forward by establishing our reservation and making it livable.
▶ 0:51:48Mr. Lehi: The treaty sets aside 5100 acres near the southern area west of tuba city, 300 acres in the northern area near paiute mountain, utah. S. 953 declares paiute rights to water in the southern area provides up to 350 acre-feet of water per year and creates a trust fund so the tribe can build and maintain infrastructure as we need. It gives us enough water for a community supply and ability to build the system.
▶ 0:52:20Mr. Lehi: It will also reduce the need for families to haul water long distances or rely on bottled water. The san juan southern paiute tribe supports the settlement because it bring certainty, stability, and a future for our people. When I talk to my grandmother, this treaty, about this treaty, she tells me she hopes to see our people living on our reservation homeland in her lifetime. I share that hope.
▶ 0:52:48Mr. Lehi: This is not just paperwork for our families, it's the difference between waiting another generation and finally coming home. For us, the heart is simple. We asked congress to advance s. 953 and ratify the treaty to sovereign tribal nations already negotiated and agreed to so our elders and children can finally see that promise fulfilled on a homeland that israel. Thank you.
▶ 0:53:17Chair Murkowski: Thank you, vice president lehi. Thank you to all of our tribal leaders for making clear the impact of this water settlement on your communities, on your tribal members. I'm going to direct my first round of questions to you, Mr. cameron.
▶ 0:53:39Chair Murkowski: More of the technical questions regarding not only the settlement we are talking about today but outstanding ones, as well. I mentioned in my opening that we had created, through the bipartisan infrastructure law, the indian water rights completion fund.
▶ 0:54:05Chair Murkowski: We have numerous proposed settlements that are pending this congress that together represents $9 billion in potential federal commitments. Pretty easy question here. Does the department believe there is a funding gap for future settlements that congress may authorize, and if so, what kind of a mechanism does the department believe we should be using to fund those obligations?
▶ 0:54:33Chair Murkowski: Should it be coming out of annual appropriations, should we be looking to another dedicated fund? Is there perhaps a third alternative? First, the funding gap, and then proposal or suggestion as to how we address such.
▶ 0:54:52Mr. Cameron: [inaudible] there is definitely a funding gap and a significant funding gap furthermore. We are happy to use all the tools that congress might in its wisdom decided to provide to us to bridge that funding gap. As you indicated, there is that fund, $120 million a year. That helps. There are some funds that are still available from the bipartisan infrastructure law.
▶ 0:55:21Chair Murkowski: How much do you know is still available under that?
▶ 0:55:26Mr. Cameron: Not off the top of my head but nowhere near $9 billion. Probably nowhere near $1 billion, frankly, at this point. Annual discretionary appropriations could not possibly meet the obligations that are implied by the various water rights settlements that are facing us. Bureau of reclamation's appropriate our dollars on the order of $1.5 billion a year.
▶ 0:55:58Mr. Cameron: We have 20 out virtually everything else going on inside the bureau in order to fund even to billion dollars a year of the indian water rights settlements.
▶ 0:56:08Chair Murkowski: I think it speaks to the challenge that we have. I agree with senator schatz here. We have an obligation. These are treaty and trust responsibilities. It is one thing to provide for the authorizations, the approval of the settlement. It is how we then take that next step.
▶ 0:56:36Chair Murkowski: If what we are talking about is really trying to get to the wet water, you don't get there if we have not funded that. I mentioned the other proposed settlements under consideration this congress. Back in march, we reported four settlement bills for tribes in new mexico coming out of committee here. For those four, the estimated total is $2.75 billion in federal cost.
▶ 0:57:04Chair Murkowski: Has the administration reviews these four new mexico settlements, do you have any concerns about the settlements as written?
▶ 0:57:13Mr. Cameron: We certainly are aware of them, senator. We typically don't take position on legislation until we are about to testify on those particular bills. Our next opportunity may be on the house side, to express a formal administration position.
▶ 0:57:31Chair Murkowski: It would be helpful, if there are concerns about the specific settlements, if you can be communicating with the committee here. We are trying to sketch out how we are going to take on this massive funding challenge here. If you can work with us on that. Let me turn specifically to s. 953.
▶ 0:58:02Chair Murkowski: You raise concerns about the cost of the settlement in your testimony. You have outlined in your remarks here, too, the criteria that the government looks to, evaluate settlement costs by considering the existing federal trust responsibilities and other unmet federal obligations to the tribes.
▶ 0:58:28Chair Murkowski: Given that framework, with the funding authorized by this settlement in 953 help fulfill the unmet federal programmatic responsibilities? This is everything the tribal leaders have talked about which is water supply, safe drinking water, sanitation, infrastructure.
▶ 0:58:58Chair Murkowski: Assuming that it does meet those federal responsibilities, how did the department account for these existing obligations when you are evaluating the overall cost to this settlement, whether or not it's appropriate under the policies?
▶ 0:59:15Mr. Cameron: First of all, senator, the bill would accomplish a lot of good things, no doubt about that. It would provide drinking water for folks who have not had it forever. That would be really useful and a good and positive thing for the united states to do. The criteria and procedures are a tool to help guide the departments and the administration's analysis of the obligation to the united states.
▶ 0:59:47Mr. Cameron: They don't necessarily determine whatever position will be on any particular bill. But I do need to reiterate, $5 billion is a lot of money, and we look forward to working with the committee and the three tribes and the other interested parties of which there are quite a few, to see if we cannot creatively come up with some ideas to still satisfy the purposes of the bill at somewhat less cost.
▶ 1:00:12Chair Murkowski: One of the things that your testimony mentions is the possibility of reevaluating the size and the scope of the pipeline. I'm assuming that is just one of many out there.
▶ 1:00:32Chair Murkowski: How are projects like this evaluated by the department, by the year of rec -- bureau of rec on how these cost opponents are developed? You have suggested there is room here to work this number down. What is the best way to ensure that we are actually getting accurate cost estimates for these kinds of infrastructure projects?
▶ 1:01:00Chair Murkowski: We be just taking a big number and saying this seems like in the neighborhood, how specific are you actually getting in drilling down cost?
▶ 1:01:07Mr. Cameron: The best way to do is to have a full-blown feasibility study. When we start looking at legislation like this, the first step is an appraisal study which is very high level.
▶ 1:01:21Mr. Cameron: We really need not just through this bill but for any piece of legislation, even in the corps of engineers world outside of the context of indian water rights settlements, a full-blown feasibility study whether on the ground, geological analyses, or walking the ground, doing really reliable construction estimates. That is the best way to begin.
▶ 1:01:48Mr. Cameron: More broadly, we look at the perceived financial benefits and cost of a project, we look at the litigation risk on part of the united states, our friends over here potentially to sue us and to enforce a perceived trust response ability or other statutory responsibilities on the part of the secretary.
▶ 1:02:17Mr. Cameron: But we also look more broadly at what are in the perhaps not easy to calculate trust responsibilities to tribes of the united states more generally. Secretary burgum had a great relationship with north dakota tribes. He has made it clear to the political leadership at the department that he wants to have a good relationship and be responsive to the needs of all tribes across the country.
▶ 1:02:43Mr. Cameron: It is ultimately a negotiation process, evaluation of different alternatives. When you meet with the tribes, you mention perhaps changing the nature of the pipeline. That might be one possibility. Another possibility would be instead of an upfront, one time payment, this committee and other contacts have provided for annual payments over some number of years. That might be one way to address at least the one time hit on the treasury.
▶ 1:03:14Mr. Cameron: We could potentially look at changing the scope of the trust funds. There may be other ideas, too. We would welcome the opportunity to get into the details with the three tribes and your committee and your colleagues on the house side to brainstorm about a path forward.
▶ 1:03:32Chair Murkowski: I appreciate that. I know there is no one easy answer to that question, so care enough, but it will require a fair amount of communication. I am well over my time. I will turn to the moisture.
▶ 1:03:47Sen. Schatz: The chair has no time limits. [laughter] I want to thank our tribal leaders were being here, want to thank the tribal members were being here. We appreciate you making the trip. It does reinforce how essential this is to indian country. I also want to thank senator kelly for his leadership alongside senator gallego. Mr. cameron come in your written testimony, use of the department is committed to implementing and enacted indian water rights settlements so long as there is funding to do so.
▶ 1:04:21Sen. Schatz: Does the reclamation what settlement fund currently have enough water to complete enacted settlements?
▶ 1:04:24Mr. Cameron: No, sir, it does not.
▶ 1:04:28Sen. Schatz: Does the reclamation water settlement fund have enough to settle pending estimates s. 953 including if they were enacted today?
▶ 1:04:37Mr. Cameron: We could not support s. 953. There isn't enough money in the fund. I'm not taking the position on 953 itself.
▶ 1:04:46Sen. Schatz: You could not fund it.
▶ 1:04:48Mr. Cameron: We could not.
▶ 1:04:50Sen. Schatz: Would you support funding that is adequate and stable to complete these settlements both active and is pending before congress?
▶ 1:04:56Mr. Cameron: Yes, sir. The challenging part of your question is folks would define those terms perhaps a bit differently, but we are definitely committed to fulfilling our obligations as a congress as presented to us in these statutes once enacted.
▶ 1:05:11Sen. Schatz: What do you mean by folks may define those terms a bit differently?
▶ 1:05:15Mr. Cameron: I think you used the term appropriate in your question. There may be different perspectives on what appropriate means. Having said that, we are committed to implementing the laws as a congress pass them.
▶ 1:05:31Sen. Schatz: Will reclamation request additional funding or provide a legislative proposal in the president's budget request to fix the shortfall in funds for indian rights water rights settlements?
▶ 1:05:42Mr. Cameron: Senator, the fy 27 but it has not been released by the administration, so I'm unfortunately not able to answer the question at this point.
▶ 1:05:51Sen. Schatz: Can you work with the step of the indian committee led by the chair on a path forward so that we are not downstream from the president's budget? I have spoken to sec. Burgum, one of the reasons that I voted for sec. Burgum, his commitment to tribal and trust response abilities.
▶ 1:06:13Sen. Schatz: I am hoping that we don't -- I don't want this to be a black box exercise where we find out later in the president's budget, we are just stuck. Both of us sit on this committee and appropriations, want to make sure that we are both upstream and downstream. Is that a fair request?
▶ 1:06:31Mr. Cameron: That is a fair request. I will commit to both you and the chairman, frankly, your colleagues on the house side, we are always happy to work with congress to provide as much information as we can and find a path forward to address these very real and unfortunately increasingly expensive situations.
▶ 1:06:50Sen. Schatz: Thank you. President nygren, nice to see you again. Interior testified today that it supports the policy that negotiated indian water rights settlements are preferable to protracted and divisive litigation. 953 wood and decades of costly litigation. About how much has that litigation cost the tribe and nonfederal parties?
▶ 1:07:13Mr. Nygren: For the navajo nation, I believe, all the tribes, tens of millions of dollars, decades of resources. I think by the passage of s. 953 , it would and a lot of that -- end a lot of that.
▶ 1:07:31Sen. Schatz: How much is because the united states government and you do to litigate these cases?
▶ 1:07:36Mr. Cameron: I don't have an exact number but it's fair to say it costs in the millions of dollars, and there are significant cost to the nonfederal parties who are involved in litigation as well.
▶ 1:07:45Sen. Schatz: Thank you. I want to talk a little bit about pay fors. Of the 39 enacted settlements, how many had pay forcing the authorizing legislation?
▶ 1:07:58Mr. Cameron: I believe the number is nine. I can confirm that.
▶ 1:08:04Sen. Schatz: Ok.
▶ 1:08:06Mr. Cameron: Four actually.
▶ 1:08:09Sen. Schatz: My staff had four. That sounds right. Final question, any account within the interior that are large enough for congress to use to offset the cost of s. 953?
▶ 1:08:21Mr. Cameron: We do have multiple , not in terms of the appropriated accounts, annual appropriate accounts, no. As I indicated earlier, we have the water settlement fund, fairly small amount of money compared to the price of s. 953. We have some funds from the bipartisan infrastructure law --
▶ 1:08:40Sen. Schatz: The border settlement fund, I take your point. If we are talking about appropriated funds come you are stuck with whatever we appropriate. There could be a big pot of money, but if we did make an appropriation, you cannot just pilfer it. On the border settlement accounts, is that what it is called? I thought that was bringing in billions annually, is it not?
▶ 1:09:05Mr. Cameron: We have 100 $20 million available every year through --
▶ 1:09:11Sen. Schatz: That is how much is appropriate. How much is collected how much sits in the account?
▶ 1:09:16Mr. Cameron: I'm happy to provide that.
▶ 1:09:19Sen. Schatz: One don't we work together on that. My understanding is that is a real pot of money, not just in the tens of millions. It has been used in the past to pay for water settlements. That is something that the congress has to at least consider in consultation with the department. Thank you.
▶ 1:09:37Chair Murkowski: Thank you, senator schatz. Senator daines.
▶ 1:09:43Sen. Daines: Thank you. They have waited over a century to settle their water rights. In fact, they are the original tribe that led to the winters doctrine. They completed their settlement negotiations decades ago, and they've been waiting for congress to do its job and ratified the compact.
▶ 1:10:10Sen. Daines: Assistant secretary cameron is ratifying an indian water settlement and an effective way to avoid decades of litigation which would cost the government millions of dollars.
▶ 1:10:21Mr. Cameron: Yes, sir, absolutely.
▶ 1:10:24Sen. Daines: I want to focus on the cost of not completing settlements, especially for our farmers and ranchers. Montana's high line is semiarid, a drought-prone region of the state.
▶ 1:10:42Sen. Daines: Many, when they think about montana, they think about brad pitt with a fly rod and "a reruns through it." yes, we had beautiful rivers and I grew up with a fly rod in my hand until brad pitt ruined it for the rest of us. But when you look at the high line, montana, when you are seeing here is spring wheat production by county.
▶ 1:11:10Sen. Daines: Montana is a semiarid state, even where brad pitt filmed "a river runs through it" which is down there, not too far from yellowstone park. Our average rainfalls are in the 14 to 16 inches there. For north in the highlands, it is even drier, 12 to 14 inches of annual rainfall. Compare that to washington, D.C. or seattle, which gets about the same amount of rain. They get 41 inches of rain.
▶ 1:11:43Sen. Daines: We get 12 to 14 in the high line. It is the milk river that is the lifeblood of the region. It provides irrigation for 140 thousand acres and drinking water for 20,000 people. As you can see, the milk river basin is among the most productive areas for spring wheat in the country. The same is true for winter wheat, as well as barley.
▶ 1:12:12Sen. Daines: The milk river basin is served by the milk river project. It is in over 100-year-old irrigation project that diverts water from the st. Mary river and carries it across we call the high line at the northern edge of montana. But due to droughts and aging infrastructure, the project is breaking down and delivering less and less water to irrigate rs.
▶ 1:12:40Sen. Daines: The old saying that we say in montana, whiskey is for drinking and water is for fighting. That's true. This project already suffered one catastrophic blow out, leaving thousands with limited irrigation and drinking water, and it cost hundreds of millions of dollars to repair. As they say, there is never enough money to do it right, but there is always enough money to do it over, and there is an example. The tribe is a senior water rights holder.
▶ 1:13:13Sen. Daines: The milk river basin is overleveraged. Put plainly, there are more paper water rights than wet water on the ground. And the fort belknap water and the fort belknap wa tribe is a senior water holder. Without the settlement, junior water rights holders like the farmers and ranchers face a huge amount of uncertainty because the water rights, it is the date when you receive that right,.
▶ 1:13:45Sen. Daines: The date of the claim the older the claim, the more senior the water right. Assistant secretary cameron, there are tens of thousands of unresolved claims along the milk river. If we move to litigation instead of settlement, farmers and ranchers across the high line could lose their ability to irrigate.
▶ 1:14:05Sen. Daines: So my question is, what might the future cost of not ratifying the water compact to be, especially if wheat and barley -- don't have settled water allocations? -- I think the implications are certainly serious.
▶ 1:14:26Sen. Daines: They are serious in terms of the litigation, a risk in the litigation cost, in terms of the disruption of the economic activity in the indian and non-indian community. They are significant in terms of the agricultural productivity of the land. Farmers need certainty about access to water.
▶ 1:14:51Sen. Daines: It would clearly be in everyone's interest to come to closure on that situation. As I have educated to your colleagues -- as I have indicated to your colleagues, I would love to work with you and your colleagues on the house side to see if we get momentum going to make progress on this. >> I appreciate it. What is adding insult to injury at the moment, the wheat and barley prices are in the tank.
▶ 1:15:23Sen. Daines: Our farmers are losing money right now with higher input costs, fertilizer, it is truly some of the toughest times we have seen in farm country in montana that I can remember. One last question, Mr. cameron. In your testimony, you said the administration supports building off past models of success for negotiating settlements.
▶ 1:15:50Sen. Daines: A great example is when I and the rest of the montello delegation -- montana delegation worked with the first trump administration to get the water compact finished back in 2020. How can I get your support for the northern montana water security act and finish montana's final indian water settlement? >> senator, I'm very familiar with the passage of that previous legislation.
▶ 1:16:18Sen. Daines: I worked for congressman forever, interior secretary frankie, when that moved through. I still have a number of friends who work for now congressman's inky, they talk about montana issues, they talk about it every week for the last year. It is very sensitive to the situation. The administration has not taken a formal position on the bill. We've had an opportunity to testify.
▶ 1:16:47Sen. Daines: But certainly can commit to you to working on a legislation and finding a path forward. >> it is so much bigger than the tribe, it starts there. But this is all the irrigators along the highlight, the farmers and ranchers at the moment have spanned that huge swath across montana, the fourth largest state in the nation.
▶ 1:17:18Sen. Daines: We are smaller than alaska. , chairman markowski. I know who the chairman is, believe me. If I can summarize, if this is about water security for farmers and ranchers -- it is about water security for our tribes. It is about infrastructure investment for our ag economy.
▶ 1:17:38Sen. Daines: My bill in vests, it saves money, ensures long-term stability for farmers and ranchers with literally century old infrastructure, and helping out both tribal and nontribal entities, it is time to get this done. Thank you, chairman. >> senator lujan. >> Mr. cameron, you know this, bipartisan support for the legislation here. As we all work together to get this done. I want to remind us all of that as well.
▶ 1:18:12Sen. Daines: Mr. cameron, president trump's budget request of fy 27, I think you are aware of a letter myself, house colleagues, senate colleagues, democrats and republicans sent to the secretary. We included you on the letter advocating for support of the navajo water supply project. We were all disappointed with the lack of funding requested from the administration on the project in fy 2026.
▶ 1:18:37Sen. Daines: I hope we don't see that in the fy 2027, which is what you have a group of democrats and republicans writing about this. It is not a question. As a result, I was proud to work with the leadership and the staff in this room and thank them all for the work done to secure $55 million in cds to keep the project moving.
▶ 1:18:59Sen. Daines: In addition to that, the leadership on this committee also provided support as did all of our colleagues to provide use and access to the bureau of reclamation, $120 million from the water settlement fund. I appreciate that acknowledgment. As you may know, this project is still waiting for the $120 million in funding to be assigned to the navajo gallup water project. Just as a reminder, if it fails, it would be the first project to fail.
▶ 1:19:29Sen. Daines: Once we know one fails, they all fail. We do not want to see the first one fail. I'm hoping I can get your commitment today that the funding will come through and you will do everything you can to keep this project on track.
▶ 1:19:44Sen. Daines: >> I can't speak to the president's 2027 budget, but as you know very well, senator, the navajo gallup project is the number one priority for the water solvent fund, and we are doing everything we can to deliver on time on that project. It is the biggest construction project in the bureau of reclamation.
▶ 1:20:09Sen. Daines: I have been out there on the ground, seeing a small piece of it. It is a very big project. I appreciate your leadership on that. We are doing everything we can to meet our obligations in terms of dollars and timing on that. >> can you speak to the $120 million in the water settlement fund, which we know exist? That money exists.
▶ 1:20:37Sen. Daines: Can you give us a timeline as to when that will be transferred over, since it has already been approved by congress? >> I will have to look into that, senator. I was not aware of there being a hold upon that. I will do that when I get back to the office. >> I appreciate that very much. Madam chair, water settlements matter to all of us. One of the areas I was proud to work on was the late chairman raul grijalva.
▶ 1:21:07Sen. Daines: He introduced an important piece of legislation we call this water fund the bipartisan infrastructure law also created the $2.5 billion indian water rights settlement completion fund to provide mandatory settlement for the settlements enacted prior to the law. We were just reminded there is a restriction to that not to support projects enacted after november 15, 2021.
▶ 1:21:31Sen. Daines: Going forward, I believe it is vital congress provide a stable, dedicated funding source in the water rights settlements to ensure they are honored and tribal communities have safe water supplies in their homelands. I will introduce legislation soon to do just that. Sec., as you sit in your testimony, the department is committed to implementing and enacting indian water rights settlements as long as the funding necessary for such implement is available.
▶ 1:22:00Sen. Daines: I hope this legislation can be bipartisan. We are working with all offices. I hope we can find a way to get there and we are willing to work. I'm happy to share a draft and I welcome your comments if it is something I might be able to do. >> I would be delighted to look at a draft and provide technical assistance as we do for any senator on our office committee or any member of congress, for that matter. When congress appropriates money, we will be happy to spend it. >> invest it.
▶ 1:22:33Sen. Daines: I appreciate that, president nygren. I understand the good progress has been made in the discussions with the state of new mexico. But I want to have insurances, especially that there is a provision in the legislation with the arizona settlement, or the navajo settlement in arizona and utah should be corrected to say.
▶ 1:22:57Sen. Daines: But there is a provision that says the navajo gallup project could delay project protection completion if it goes past 2029. If the hook up to the -- pipeline exists, can you share what assurances have been included to make sure we are able to get this pipeline moving, we will not see delay, we need to get the other project passed by congress, get it to
▶ 1:23:27Sen. Daines: The president for signature, funded, and get that connection. Can you talk to that, as far as the assurances? >> thank you for your leadership. One of the assurances is we want to get the navajo gallup water supply done as quickly as possible. I know we don't want to hold up that project and some of the provisions in this legislation to make sure that if there was a delay or a cost increase, that the navajo nation would pay for that cost as well. >> I appreciate that.
▶ 1:23:59Sen. Daines: Madam chair, one thing I appreciate about this connection, as we talk about the navajo nation, new mexico, arizona, utah. There are state lines, but it is within the boundaries of the navajo nation. There will be interconnection which congress has approved of those changes. That is the changes I'm talking about in the western part of north mexico, the northeastern part of north arizona. Mr. president, if I can get your commitment to doing the good work.
▶ 1:24:26Sen. Daines: I see speaker curly here and others to continue working with the state of new mexico and upper basin state so we can get this done? >> thank you, senator. Our commitment will be there. Just the way we have met with the state of new mexico, we continue to negotiate and make progress, and we will keep resolving issues like we have.
▶ 1:24:48Sen. Daines: With the upper basin states, this is a, revised version that is before congress this time around. The first time we were thinking about leasing up to the whole 44,000 acre feet, now we are leasing only to 17,000 acre-feet of water, which was initially half of what we use for ngs. So we are taking all the upper basin state concerns as well.
▶ 1:25:17Sen. Daines: Through the settlement, it will be easier than going the longer route of litigation. >>>> I appreciate you saying that. To repeat what you said, you would be using half the water you were already using? Half. I understand my colleagues having debates of the upper basin, mexico is an upper basin state of -- above the colorado. This water was taken from the nation. Where I come from, first in time, first in right. Plain and simple, easily defined.
▶ 1:25:46Sen. Daines: I hope as all of us have this conversation, we can find a way to get there as well. Madam chair, since you have not closed me down just yet, I would like to remind my friends on the committee that I look forward to the next hearing on other water rights settlements. There's a few pieces of legislation I have been proud to introduce from new mexico. Other colleagues have as well. Looking forward to get that done. Settlements and technical changes and others may come forward. Thank you for your time.
▶ 1:26:17Sen. Daines: I apologize for not asking you direct questions. I support your water rights. Let me know how I can be more supportive working with colleagues and doing my part. Men chair, thank you for the time. >> I appreciate your passion on this. We have had an opportunity to speak to this. You pointed out that these issues truly are bipartisan, it should matter whether you are a republican or democrat, no matter where you are from.
▶ 1:26:46Sen. Daines: I made an interesting position, and I think my vice chair is in an interesting position. Water settlement rights are not something that we struggle with, certainly in my state. In my hometown, -- I was just checking the average rainfall in alaska, 160 inches. Probably 16 where senator -- [laughter] anyway -- no comment on that.
▶ 1:27:19Sen. Daines: I feel like I can be kind of an impartial arbiter, trying to understand what the intensity is. And to listen to the comments from our tribal leaders and to know that one in three households in navajo do not have running water.
▶ 1:27:39Sen. Daines: We have this in our villages, where it is no shortage of water, but you still are hauling. It is a challenge to the families, it is a challenge to your health status. And this is the united states of america in 2026.
▶ 1:28:04Sen. Daines: I think the basic request to have access to clean, safe drinking water is not too much to ask in today's world for our people. I take these matters very seriously. I have a couple more questions for you, and I want to direct some quick ones to our tribal leaders.
▶ 1:28:28Sen. Daines: This relates to the statement that was made by president nygren regarding the leasing authority, ns953, which authorizes the navajo tribe to lease a portion of their arizona upper colorado to users in the lower colorado river basin.
▶ 1:28:57Sen. Daines: We know that there is some controversy with two of the upper basin states. But given is the president has pointed out, that navajo nation is the only tribe with lands located in both the upper and lower basins, is there a policy reason that the navajo nation or the hopi tribe should be restricted from leasing their arizona upper basin waters to
▶ 1:29:31Sen. Daines: Users in the lower basin as long as it is within the same state? Are you concerned about that from a policy perspective? >> from a federal perspective, we are interested in helping all of our tribes, including the navajo and hopi to get the fullest value of their water resources. I recognize when you are dealing with interbasin transfers and with state water law, there are all sorts of complications.
▶ 1:30:01Sen. Daines: I'm hoping the upper basin states would be in a position to be reasonable and cooperative with the tribe so they can move forward to get the best value from that water.
▶ 1:30:18Sen. Daines: There are pre-students, certainly for tribal water leasing and other settlements that have been enacted by the congress inside arizona, the department has been working intensely for more than a year with the colorado river indian tribe to enable them pursuant to federal law to lease some of their water to parties in the central arizona project.
▶ 1:30:47Sen. Daines: We are strongly in favor of leasing arrangements. We think they put the water to the best use from an economic perspective and region. We support the goals of the tribes to lease their water at the same time we realize that state water law is important.
▶ 1:31:11Sen. Daines: I would hope these things could be negotiated out between the upper basin states and the tribes so the tribes end up having the freedom if approved by congress to lease their water.
▶ 1:31:25Chair Murkowski: It sounds like from a policy perspective you're good with it, and a precedent being set, it sounds like there is a willingness to address the water rights and needs of the navajo and the hopi. >> president nygren made a good point in this could be a one-off situation. Economies would not be providing blanket authority for interbasin transfers for any tribe anywhere in the country.
▶ 1:31:54Chair Murkowski: It would be limited by this particular statute. I think that is a reasonable way to think about it. I can't speak for the governors of the upper basin states and where they are coming from, let alone their senators. But look forward to finding a path forward that enables the navajo and the hopi to get the best use of the water they are entitled to. >> I appreciate that.
▶ 1:32:20Chair Murkowski: I think president nygren, you did a good job outlining how and why you were in such a unique position, and also noting that this would be temporary, not permanent in nature. Last question to you, Mr. cameron.
▶ 1:32:42Chair Murkowski: This is regarding the new operating guidelines, the bureau of rec is developing new operating guidelines that will take effect after the current interim guidelines expire at the end of this year.
▶ 1:33:01Chair Murkowski: How does the department anticipate the water leasing and the contribution provisions in s nine 53 interacting with this post 2026 operating framework for the colorado basin? >> they are connected, but loosely connected. The challenges we are dealing with on the colorado could be measured in the hundreds of thousands, if not, the millions of acre-feet of water.
▶ 1:33:30Chair Murkowski: In that context, 17,000, or even a slightly larger number of acre-feet is not going to make the material difference at all, in my opinion, to what we hope will eventually be a seven state agreement on the colorado. We don't see the lack of an agreement today among the seven basin states on the broader colorado basin issues as a reason not to move forward with this legislation.
▶ 1:34:02Chair Murkowski: I think they can be distinct, separate considerations.
▶ 1:34:07Chair Murkowski: Thank you for that. I'm going to direct this next question to both you, president nygren, and to chairman -- I mispronounced it the first time around, I want to make sure I get it right.
▶ 1:34:26Chair Murkowski: You have talked about the fact that this is a historic agreement among the hopi tribe, among the navajo, the san juan piut, the state of arizona. We know these don't come together easily. This has been a lot of work, a lot of years. As you testified in response to senator schatz, a lot of money. We get that.
▶ 1:34:55Chair Murkowski: As we look to examples of how to do things right in the future when it comes to water settlements, is there anything special or something you want the committee to know about in terms of collaborative strategies that allowed you to get to this place where you are able to talk about this historic agreement, and also what kind of
▶ 1:35:26Chair Murkowski: Compromises you had to make along the way in order to get here. It may be tougher to talk about the compromises because those are often times things you have to leave behind. That can also be instructive. To either one of you. >> thank you for that question. It has been making in the decades.
▶ 1:35:48Chair Murkowski: The past three years, the tribes have come together because we realized in order to be economically stable, economically ready to go to plan for the future for our communities, we need reliable water.
▶ 1:36:05Chair Murkowski: The more we thought about how we would build our communities, our households, build facilities so our kids and future grandkids can have a place to live and enjoy their lives, the more we thought about that, we said historically the hopi tribe, the navajo nation have never come together. We want to make sure we sat at the table and said we've got to stay here.
▶ 1:36:30Chair Murkowski: We got to make sure we continue to compromise and think about the future and how are we going to set ourselves up for the kids who are not born so they are not sitting at this table 20, 30, 40, 50 years from now asking for water that is already flown through our lands as well? That is one of the things I'm proud of. Thank you to the hopi nation, san juan southern pie san juan southern piut.
▶ 1:37:00Chair Murkowski: They will have a reservation, a place to call home. That within itself is historic to see ourselves. There members of the navajo people who are also have hopi, part southern paiute between the different nations, that is how we feel within the navajo nation. A lot of individuals are part navajo that live in the east coast, northern states.
▶ 1:37:30Chair Murkowski: Overall we came together to make sure we continue to think about our kids that are not here and provide a different place to call home. >> thank you for the question. I agree with president nygren, the three tribes have come together to realize we do need to provide a sustainable homeland for future generations to come. And how did we get there? We worked together.
▶ 1:38:01Chair Murkowski: This is a historical settlement for all three tribes, as pointed out, san juan southern paiute will finally have a place they can call their homelands. Both tribes will gain enough water to be able to provide economic development in the future for our future generations. This settlement act is going to be historic in that the three tribes work together in collaboration.
▶ 1:38:28Chair Murkowski: And there were some -- not disagreements, but we looked past that. We just want to look at the path moving forward. We want to work collaboratively together to reach that goal that all three of us have, to be able to write a future for our future generations. Thank you.
▶ 1:38:48Chair Murkowski: It is pretty basic when you say we realize what we are asking for is what allows for life, that is water. So if you agree on your goals, you stick to the effort and despite the setbacks.
▶ 1:39:13Chair Murkowski: I want to address this final question to you, vice president, because I think in your testimony, you talked about there was no way to measure the benefits to the people of what it means to have a permanent reservation.
▶ 1:39:44Chair Murkowski: And I think that identifier is significant, important. We are dealing with five communities, in my state, trying to resolve an outstanding settlement with regards to their land status. We call them the landless. Probably along the same lines as the san juan southern paiute, who have been seeking that level of identity.
▶ 1:40:16Chair Murkowski: Can you just provide for the committee a little bit more about what it means to establish a permanent reservation for the san juan southern paiute people when we are able to ratify this agreement? >> yes, thank you, senator. As for us, san juan southern paiute, we've never had this opportunity before.
▶ 1:40:44Chair Murkowski: We really appreciate that it has gone this far. We face the same hardships as our sister tribes, we haul water the same way, we go through the same hardships. As for us, it is an opportunity to where we finally get to say it is our home. And this is very special that we are here today.
▶ 1:41:13Chair Murkowski: Even all three tribes coming together and testifying here as a group. I echo what they say, the chairman and the president here, this is something that has never been done before. I have elders who have fought tirelessly for this. Even with the recognition. And we will finally fulfill and become a sovereign nation.
▶ 1:41:42Chair Murkowski: This water settlement is really great news. Because what is land without water as well? I would like to thank you for this opportunity.
▶ 1:41:53Chair Murkowski: Thank you. I think the testimony that has been provided today has been very important. My gratitude. Thanks for the tribal leaders that have given testimony today. But really for your commitment to working collaboratively and in a manner that has gotten us to this place. Mr.
▶ 1:42:22Chair Murkowski: Cameron, thank you for being here on behalf of the department. I think we know what the challenge is. We have trust responsibilities that we need to meet here. And we want to make sure that as we honor those through these appropriate water settlements that we not only put authorizations into law, but that we then follow through on
▶ 1:42:54Chair Murkowski: The funding side, make good on the commitment. So how we structure, whether it is supplements to existing funds, new funds, as the chairman of the interior subcommittee, I'm not really looking forward to having everything come out of the annual appropriations bill. There is a lot in that account.
▶ 1:43:23Chair Murkowski: But not near enough to make this difference whole here. I think we will be looking to how we can ensure that these funding gaps can be addressed in a meaningful way as we address, not only settlements that have been already in process, but
▶ 1:43:53Chair Murkowski: Moving forward. Including the s 953 and the legislation in front of us. Thank you for being here and making the trips to washington, D.C. and for the many of you who have gathered to listen or just to provide your support, know that is also recognized and appreciated. With that -- we will hold the committee record open for a couple of weeks.
▶ 1:44:24Chair Murkowski: As others may wish to submit questions or statements. With that, the committee stands adjourned.