▶ 0:18:25Chair Capito: Good morning. Thank you all for being here. Appreciate it. Today we will receive testimony on s-135, the cold-weather diesel reliability act. This legislation is meant to address the serious safety issue for drivers of diesel trucks and equipment in certain parts of our country. I know that two of our witnesses have traveled very far to be here today.
▶ 0:18:56Chair Capito: Since 2010, to comply with epa regulations, most new diesel engines have used a technology known as selective catalytic reduction, or scr. That's an emissions control system that sprays diesel exhaust fluid, or tef, into the vehicle exhaust stream to reduce noxious emissions.
▶ 0:19:17Chair Capito: To maintain the proper function of the system, drivers must continuously fill the d of -- vehicle with def in the epa requires manufacturers to install on board diagnostic sensors to detect when nox emissions are too high, signaling that the vehicle is out of def.
▶ 0:19:41Chair Capito: When it is detected, software is triggered to limit the engine performance through what is called a d rate five miles per hour. However, this is not limited to instances when the vehicle is out of def, but any time when emissions control technology is not functioning correctly.
▶ 0:20:07Chair Capito: Sensor failures can cause restrictions and prolonged cold-weather that can freeze def and prevented from entering the exhaust system. Amount of the reason, if there is a malfunction, the driver has only four hours to fix the problem before the five mile per hour restriction kicks in and the system responds in rural and cold-weather regions, can and has resulted in tractors shutting down in the middle of a field, during harvest season, or stranding trip truckers in
▶ 0:20:39Chair Capito: Isolated parts of the country. In 2020 one these failures led to thousands of trucks across the country being derated and thus out of service. To address the issue in emergency vehicles, such as fire trucks and ambulances, in 2012 the epa exempted emergency vehicles from this requirement. The cold-weather diesel reliability act takes a similar approach by authorizing manufacturers to override the system in targeted or cold-weather environments.
▶ 0:21:11Chair Capito: By exempting these rates in alaska and other parts of rural america, where so many folks rely on diesel trucks and equipment for their livelihood and transportation needs for building and addressing this critical safety issue. Thank you to my colleagues in working to address the unique needs of alaska, wyoming, and other cold-weather states. Thank you to the trump administration for recognizing the importance of protecting farmers and truckers.
▶ 0:21:38Chair Capito: Last year epa administrator zeldin issued guidance to allow more flexibility and longer warning times before these occurred and they are gathering information to help fix the safety problem. I look forward to this topic and I now recognize senator whitehouse for his opening statement. >> thank you, madam chair. I am happy to discuss the diesel engine issue that senator sullivan and senator lummis are concerned about.
▶ 0:22:06Chair Capito: But we also have to remember the last 14 months of trumpet taxonomy bedrock policies to test clean air and a safe and livable climate. They merit even greater attention, as they harm every single american. Before the 1970 clean air act, air pollution in the united states was at crisis levels. Smog blanketed large parts of the country.
▶ 0:22:34Chair Capito: In the 1950's, scientists discovered vehicle emissions were a primary cause of smog. Tailpipes coughing out a long list of dangerous pollutants, including nitrogen oxides. Usually referred to as nox. Which causes lung disease, reproductive issues, birth defects, kidney problems, autoimmune disease, and cancer. It is the primary cause of smog formation.
▶ 0:23:00Chair Capito: The smog of the pork -- postwar era seems like ancient history because of the passage of the clean air act, driving down the primary smog causing pollutants by 80%. Part two of the act involves data set standards with responses manufacturers implemented, with groundbreaking emissions control systems, including the system at issue today, dramatically reducing nox emissions.
▶ 0:23:29Chair Capito: Diesel vehicles are a major cause of nox pollution. They emit 20% of all nox pollution nationwide. Diesel vehicles are equipped with an emissions control system powered by diesel emissions to break down nox into nitrogen and water, reducing dangerous emissions by 90%.
▶ 0:23:51Chair Capito: Soon we will introduce the cold-weather diesel reliability act and I appreciate the senator's interest in advocating for his constituents that live in remote areas that experience extreme temperatures. The film a target a problem that the epa has already largely addressed and manufacturers have already adapted to. We will hear more. The potential for these systems to fail before -- below 12 degrees fahrenheit from a cold start is a known issue addressed by the epa in 2009 and again last year.
▶ 0:24:22Chair Capito: In both cases, epa directed engine manufacturers to allow the vehicle to drive on for some distance. Now with a software update, the distance is up to 8400 miles. That's before the engine d rates and responds to the sensor compelling it that the control system is malfunctioning. While the vehicle is driving, my understanding is that heat from the engine keeps it liquid. That is unless the tank is empty or malfunctioning.
▶ 0:24:51Chair Capito: Or in the case of a catastrophic engine failure, unrelated. There are examples that we will hear about of circumstances where truck engines d rate, but the epa is currently working on updates to existing standards for heavy duty vehicles and just this month they issued letters to the top 14 diesel manufacturers demanding relevant information.
▶ 0:25:14Chair Capito: Epa continues to address the issue, but under the president and the administrator they have completely abdicated any and all responsibility to protect everyone's air and climate. In the last 14 months, epa rescinded the greenhouse gas tailpipe standards, something that by their own estimate will cause consumers $580 billion and up to $1.4 trillion at the gas pump.
▶ 0:25:42Chair Capito: That's money directly out of the pockets of americans and into the coffers of big oil donors. With the price of gasoline skyrocketing because of the trump war of choice in iran, the transfer of wealth from americans to big oil will only grow. Epa has rescinded the greenhouse gas endangerment finding.
▶ 0:26:03Chair Capito: Scientific evidence and the cash defying the scientific evidence and lived experience of many americans, driving up the costs of private insurance, groceries across the country, and the epa retreated from its regulatory duties, turbocharging existed climate inflation. Three, epa has handed out dozens of regulatory exemptions to coal plants, letting them spew toxic mercury at will, raising the costs to consumers.
▶ 0:26:30Chair Capito: Epa rolled back the mercury air toxin rule, dramatically lowering standards for emissions of mercury and other highly dangerous and carcinogenic pollutants from power plants. They've decided not to count the health costs associated with certain air plants, only to count costs to industry when they undertake their rulemaking cost-benefit analysis. The message is clear, costs to industry donors matter, costs to the public don't.
▶ 0:27:00Chair Capito: Epa is not enforcing regulations that are still in place. This is point number six. Last year they pursued 75% fewer legal actions against polluters than they did in their first year of the first biden term, and 81% fewer than the first year of trump's own first term in 2017. 2025 also saw 36% decline in toxic substance inspections with a 29% drop in average penalties from 2024.
▶ 0:27:30Chair Capito: There is a common theme here, polluters win. All of these actions are being taken so that fossil fuel donors will be able to sell more oil, gas, and coal, with all of these actions costing all americans lots of money. Property insurance premiums are skyrocketing across the country.
▶ 0:27:50Chair Capito: Particularly along the south east and gulf coasts, across the mountain west, and the hail belt of the great plains, places were many homeowners have seen premiums double or triple in the last few years. Many others have been dropped by their insurance company altogether as uninsurable. Unaffordable and unavailable property insurance portends a deep recession similar to 2008 as property values crash. The economist magazine protects a $25 trillion it to property values around the world.
▶ 0:28:21Chair Capito: Fed chair powell noticed last year before the senate banking committee that climate risks will render entire regions of the U.S. uninsurable and therefore un-mortgage a bull in 10 to 15 years. Food prices are being driven higher by extreme weather. Coffee, sugar, orange juice, chocolate, all of oil, just a few of the goods that have seen price spikes in recent years because of unrestrained climate change.
▶ 0:28:47Chair Capito: As storms and wildfires become more frequent and severe, electricity prices have risen. Nrdc estimates that pollution from fossil fuel combustion results in more than 800 billion dollars in added health care costs per year in the united states. Under trump and selden, all of these things will get worse as they allow more and more and more pollution. This committee would do well to examine how a corrupt epa is harming all americans in addition to the matter at hand.
▶ 0:29:19Chair Capito: Thank you very much, madam chair.
▶ 0:29:20Chair Capito: Thank you, I will now turn it over to senator sullivan for his remarks on the bill this morning and to introduce our first witness, ryan anderson.
▶ 0:29:34Senator Sullivan: After that opening statement, I get the sense that you will be supporting my bill but not the other things.
▶ 0:29:43Sen. Whitehouse: We will work with you, senator sullivan.
▶ 0:29:48Senator Sullivan: I know, we have a very good working relationship. This would fix an issue that I'm hearing from dozens of alaskans I represent. More than alaskans, its constituents, americans and many other states that have cold weather. As I mentioned, this is a problem that my constituents brought directly to my office.
▶ 0:30:14Senator Sullivan: It's another epa mandate that doesn't reflect the real book that impacts so many outside of D.C. in alaska, it can literally be an issue of life and death. You already explained, madam chair.
▶ 0:30:28Senator Sullivan: I will expound more on the emission means that require nearly all diesel engines, during the obama administration, to install emissions control systems that use diesel exhaust fluid order def cash or -- or def.
▶ 0:30:48Senator Sullivan: There were also at rate safeguards to limit engine power or shut on the vehicle if the system detects a problem, such as low def levels or a malfunction in the equipment.
▶ 0:31:03Senator Sullivan: As often happens to people hit with one-size-fits-all regulations from D.C., it's not that he see lawyers, it's the truck drivers, equipment operators, farmers out there on the remote highways doing the hard work that keep our community supplied and our economy moving. Why do I say that? Def freezes at just 12 degrees fahrenheit. They have heaters to fall them once the engine starts.
▶ 0:31:33Senator Sullivan: In a normal winter condition, the heaters generally do their job. In places like alaska, temperatures do not just dip below freezing for a few hours. They can stay well below -20 degrees at a time for weeks. As our witness, ryan anderson, will testify, we had a very cold winter in alaska.
▶ 0:31:59Senator Sullivan: 20, 30, 40, 50 below zero for weeks on end in many communities in my state. The extreme cold can affect the sensors, the pumps, and the heaters that the emissions systems depend on. The sensors think that something is wrong, even when the engine itself is running just fine.
▶ 0:32:25Senator Sullivan: The truck computer reads it as a fault and starts reducing power, slowing down to as slow as five miles per hour, and then in some instances shutting off the engine. When that happens in a city, it's inconvenient. When it happens on a remote highway in alaska, where there is no cell service, and the nearest help might be hundreds of miles away, it becomes a serious safety risk. Literally a matter of life and death.
▶ 0:32:55Senator Sullivan: Don't just take my word for it. One of the calls my office received that lead directly to this legislation came from a trucking company operating on the dalton highway. That is what we call the haul road, the only road that goes up to the alaska north slope. Think of the show ice road truckers. That's the road, those are the truck drivers. It's the economic lifeline of alaska.
▶ 0:33:20Senator Sullivan: One of their drivers was heading north towards the bay, the biggest oilfield in north america, during a blizzard. Temperatures were -45 below zero. Without winchell. It was gusting at over 60 miles per our, so the wind chill was probably in the 70 to 80 degrees below zero temperature. The truck was practically brand-new and properly winterized.
▶ 0:33:49Senator Sullivan: Near madigan pass, the truck suddenly lost power when the def crystallized and the sensors registered a fault. The driver went from highway speed to crawling around -- crawling along at five miles per hour in the middle of a blizzard while hauling a heavy load through mountain terrain. There is no cell service on most of the dalton highway.
▶ 0:34:12Senator Sullivan: He was lucky enough to call the dispatch on a satellite phone while idling in the brutal wind chills just to keep the truck from freezing solid. Not moving. Hours later, many hours later, another driver finally reached him and helped him. He survived, but the load had to be dropped in the company was paid 15,000 right -- $15,000 just to tell the truck back. Madam chair, these stories are not unusual in alaska.
▶ 0:34:43Senator Sullivan: I hear them all the time from truckers, equipment operators, and small businesses who rely on diesel equipment to do their job . I would like to submit for the record several different testimonials from my constituents about exactly this problem.
▶ 0:34:56Chair Capito: Without objection.
▶ 0:34:58Sen. Sullivan: These are the men and women who keep the company moving, caulk --, hauling food and fuel, producing american energy on the north slope of alaska, still one of the largest oil and gas fields in the country, which we need right now. What they are telling us is simple. The rules coming out of washington don't reflect the reality they face on the ground.
▶ 0:35:23Sen. Sullivan: In alaska these failures can leave someone stranded in 50 below zero weather, hours away from help. This is a compliance trap and it's dangerous. My bill brings some common sense into the system, directing the epa to update regulations to account for extreme cold, allowing manufacturers to temporarily suspend automatic d-rate or shut down functions during those extreme cold weather conditions. Common sense.
▶ 0:35:53Sen. Sullivan: I'm committed to working with the manufacturers, regulators, the trucking industry, and my colleagues here to get this right, but we have to start by listening to the people who are actually living with these everyday problems, not ignoring them. That's what my bill does. It listens to the working men and women of our country who keep our country and economy running and makes sure that federal policy reflects the reality they actually face on the road.
▶ 0:36:23Sen. Sullivan: With that, speaking of roads in alaska, madam chair and very honored to introduce the alaska department of transportation commissioner, ryan anderson. I have known him, he has been a friend of mine for many years. Commissioner anderson spent the last 25 years working for the state of alaska. He moved to alaska in 1990 three and attended the university of alaska fairbanks, where he earned a degree in geological engineering.
▶ 0:36:51Sen. Sullivan: He also earned his professional civil engineering license in 2003. Before becoming commissioner in 2022 he served for six years as the department of transportation northern region director. An area by the way larger than the state of texas. It stretches from the gulf of alaska to the arctic ocean, from the bering sea to the canadian border.
▶ 0:37:18Sen. Sullivan: In that role he oversaw construction, maintenance, and emergency response across some of the coldest and most remote terrain anywhere in the united states. Commissioner anderson brings decades of on the ground experience managing infrastructure, equipment, and people in extreme arctic conditions, making his perspective particularly valuable to today's discussion. Thank you again, commissioner, for traveling about 4000 miles to come to this hearing. It's always an honor to work with you.
▶ 0:37:50Sen. Sullivan: We want to work with you to keep alaska's transportation system operating under some of the toughest conditions anywhere in the world. Safe, effective. With that, I would ask the commissioner to make a statement?
▶ 0:38:07Chair Capito: That's good. I would welcome Mr. anderson, thank you for being here, you're not recognized for five minutes.
▶ 0:38:16Mr. Anderson: Chair, ranking member, members of the committee, thank you for the opportunity to testify today. My name is ryan anderson. Our department maintains the alaskan statewide transportation system. Highways, airports, marine facilities connecting communities across alaska. One of the largest promote transportation systems in the nation.
▶ 0:38:44Mr. Anderson: I have worked at alaska dot for 25 years and I'm here to show the challenges faced by operators who keep people in freight and essential supplies moving across alaska. These transportation systems operate through some of the longest and most severe winters in the united states. In most of the state winter conditions last six months or more. Going into the arctic, they last for eight months.
▶ 0:39:10Mr. Anderson: In the interior alaska temperatures often fall between -32 -50. This past winter, we had temperatures -60 below fahrenheit. They work through darkness and powerful storms, extreme cold, often independently, where help can be many hours away by road or by air. Aviation is a lifeline across alaska.
▶ 0:39:39Mr. Anderson: 200 50 communities that are rural don't have road access. Food and male, medical supplies, they arrived by aircraft. When equipment fails, runways close until repairs are made. Delaying flights, carrying freight and essential supplies, delaying emergency medical evacuations. The alaskan environment already puts people at risk. Imagine if the critical equipment that we rely on to reduce those risks isn't reliable.
▶ 0:40:09Mr. Anderson: In alaska, reliable equipment isn't just an operational issue, it's a life safety issue for us. Unfortunately the reliability of these modern systems make this already challenging environment already more difficult. Across alaska operators report failures tied to these fluids and control systems during sustained cold-weather operations. The systems can freeze, malfunction, or trigger auto mention -- automatic engine d-rates, as discussed.
▶ 0:40:39Mr. Anderson: In most places that could mean a quick trip to a repair shop, but in alaska the consequences are far more dangerous. These situations are not hypothetical. They are happening on the highways today where professional drivers are moving the food and industrial supplies that communities across the state depend on. Our apartment alone, emissions control systems have become the single largest source of maintenance failures affecting the diesel fleet.
▶ 0:41:08Mr. Anderson: The fleet director estimates 70% to 80% of diesel engine maintenance issues of the past two years are related to emissions control systems. Any given day, 10% to 30% of our fleet might not be available for service because of these faults.
▶ 0:41:23Mr. Anderson: In one recent case a maintenance unit had to be hauled 500 miles for repairs after an emissions system failure that resulted in $45,000 in added operating equipment costs in the equipment was out of service for a full year and in one rural community a runway was temporarily closed after snow removal malfunctions. There was no mechanic in the community, parts for the technician had to be flown to an adjacent community and transported by snow machine to get the runway back open.
▶ 0:41:54Mr. Anderson: D.o.t. Is not alone. Commercial trucking companies, school transportation providers, fire departments in the alaska railroad have all reported similar failures. Transportation providers have reported school buses experiencing these failures in the extreme cold, forcing a crew to respond immediately to disabled buses to get them safely to school.
▶ 0:42:19Mr. Anderson: Fire departments in some communities have reported emergency vehicles sidelined by these failures of admissions systems. These repairs are more difficult than in most places. In many rural communities, mechanics and diagnostics are not available nearby. When the equipment fails, parts may have to travel thousands of miles and in some communities it can take days before the mechanic even arrives. Operators are adapting, d.o.t.
▶ 0:42:45Mr. Anderson: Is rebuilding older equipment to ensure reliable equipment operations. Our largest school bus operator is converting a fleet to gasoline engines. Fire departments are rebuilding older trucks to make sure that these vehicles remain operable in the extreme cold. This is increased life safety risk for operators, reducing our ability to respond quickly. Impacts that extend beyond their communities.
▶ 0:43:13Mr. Anderson: The people of alaska care deeply about clean air and protecting the environment, but policies for moderate climates must also work in the extreme conditions. The cold diesel reliability act as a practical and targeted solution it recognizes the challenges of operating equipment in the sustained extreme cold. Thank you for the opportunity to testify.
▶ 0:43:33Chair Capito: I will now recognize senator lummis to introduce our next witness, todd were in storm.
▶ 0:43:42Senator Lummis: I want to thank the members of the committee, certain senator sullivan, for partnering this bill. This subject came to my attention when a constituent of mine in cheyenne was imprisoned for fixing diesel engine so that they would run in cold weather.
▶ 0:44:09Senator Lummis: He was imprisoned not because he broke the law, but because he broke a rule. A rule that was created back here in washington, D.C., where it never gets below zero, never gets below 10 degrees, by people who don't understand that there are other ways to protect the environment from knox.
▶ 0:44:37Senator Lummis: Other than this one device that they require. Because they require this one device, no alternatives, diesel mechanics have been trying to keep these diesel engines running by altering the required emissions control systems.
▶ 0:45:07Senator Lummis: Thank goodness the president pardon to troy lake. It was an absurd result. Look at these big cities that are letting violent criminals go because they broke the law, yet they through a diesel mechanic, a good man, imprison because he's fixing diesel engines so that they will run in cold weather. School buses. Ambulances. Trucks.
▶ 0:45:43Senator Lummis: I'm just so offended that our nation would do that to someone. Senator sullivan, you have constituents being prosecuted under that same law. Hopefully they are not getting thrown in prison for it yet. My constituent was. There is a solution that can solve the air quality issues without shutting down the engines.
▶ 0:46:07Senator Lummis: That's why I am so grateful you are sponsoring this bill, senator sullivan, and I'm grateful that my farm bureau president, Mr. fornes from Mr.
▶ 0:46:17Fornstrom: -- Mr. fornstrom
▶ 0:46:20Fornstrom: -- Mr. fornstro would come today to testify about this -- Mr. fornstrom: -- Mr. fornstrom, would come today to testify about this. He runs his own trucking and come binding businesses along his father and his dedication to advancing wyoming agriculture and the farm bureau has earned him the trust of our farm bureau members who elected her interests -- elected him to serve a ninth term as president. You know, farming is tough work. Sunrise to sunset.
▶ 0:46:51Fornstrom: No days off. Everything goes wrong friday after 5 p.m., I know it from personal experience. He brings first-hand experience with these issues. When the environmental policies that we invoke to protect our air makes it so that we cannot even run the equipment in cold weather, we have to find a solution.
▶ 0:47:20Fornstrom: It can't be by electing lee zeldin to be the permanent director of the epa. We know the director will change. Someday there will be a democratic administration that will try to reverse everything that lee zeldin is doing at the epa. That's why it has to be in law. We have to rationalize it through common sense on issues that are being administered without any common sense.
▶ 0:47:51Fornstrom: And this is one of them. So, I am so delighted that Mr. fornstrom is here today. He has personal experience operating in some of the harshest winter conditions in the country with heavy snowfall, high winds, temperatures routinely below 20 degrees. We call that a bony 20, when he gets below zero. Kind of cold.
▶ 0:48:19Fornstrom: Those are serious challenges for equipment and emission systems designed with that reality in mind. Mr. fornstrom, thank you so much for coming and for your willingness to share your experience and perspectives with the community today. I look forward to hearing your testimony. I go back.
▶ 0:48:37Chair Capito: Thank you. Please proceed with your statement.
▶ 0:48:42Mr. Fornstrom: Chairman, ranking member, members of the committee, thank you for the opportunity to testify today. Testify on the impact of the diesel exhaust load, or def, on the agriculture community. My name is john walke, --todd fornstrom, farming with my father outside wyoming. We have irrigating corn, wheat, alfalfa.
▶ 0:49:13Mr. Fornstrom: I operate a pellet mill printing paint products. We have a combine business and a trucking business. We stay busy. It's an honor to represent nearly 12,000 members of the wyoming farm bureau federation and 5 million members of the american farm bureau. Farmers depend on clean air and clean water.
▶ 0:49:35Mr. Fornstrom: The natural resources impact long-term productivity, which is why the farm bureau supports policies that balance environmental goals with economic and operational results . However, the requirement of def and agricultural equipment has created significant challenges for farmers across the country. Designed to improve the quality, operational and financial burdens for the agriculture sector have been increased.
▶ 0:50:03Mr. Fornstrom: Def became widely used on farms following the epa form emission standards. Today most large tractors, combines, and sprayers are all required to have def to operate. Farmers have experienced several problems with the system reliability. Harsh operating consent -- conditions are a major concern. Farmers operate in extreme dust, dirt, temperature, and constant vibration.
▶ 0:50:34Mr. Fornstrom: These systems of tanks, pumps, and sensors constructor in the -- struggle in those environments. In wyoming, def and freeze. There are designs to prevent it, but the system does malfunction. To keep those properly running, it's a major problem. If they fail, the engine can reduce power, shut down entirely, often during critical times like planting, harvesting, and feeding.
▶ 0:51:05Mr. Fornstrom: The cold-weather diesel reliability act addresses some of these concerns. The legislation would allow manufacturers to suspend auto magic engine shutdowns caused by def malfunctions while temperatures are at or below freezing and it would exempt, provide exemptions for equipment operating primarily in extremely cold regions. For the farmers working in harsh winter conditions, these changes are essential for maintaining reliable operations. Farmers also face a unique risk.
▶ 0:51:36Mr. Fornstrom: Death has -- def has to remain extremely pure to operate effectively, but farm environments are full of dust, dirt, and other contaminants. Even small amounts can cause system shutdowns and failures. These systems rely heavily on electronic sensors.
▶ 0:51:55Mr. Fornstrom: If a sensor detects a problem, the machine can still run most of the time, but then it automatically reduces power and goes into a limp mode or a d-rate mode, or shuts down altogether. The design for emissions compliance systems can disrupt critical farm operations that depend on the equipment running continuously and for long hours.
▶ 0:52:21Mr. Fornstrom: Billet -- beyond reliability concerns, def has added significant costs. Farmers most regularly purchase it and invest in proper systems to prevent freezing and degradation, and other added costs. Many operations are so heated in their insulated tanks with special equipment. Maintenance and repair costs can be substantial.
▶ 0:52:44Mr. Fornstrom: Sensors and injector maintenance are expensive to fix and the costs come at a time when farmers are already facing rising costs, commodity prices, and unpredictable weather. The profit margin in agriculture is already razor thin and these def requirements added another layer of financial and operational pressure.
▶ 0:53:07Mr. Fornstrom: We appreciate the leadership of senator sullivan and senator lummis in introducing this legislation to address the challenges of cold-weather diesel reliability act systems as they pose them on cold climates. The agricultural committee believes congress should go further to carefully weigh the environmental benefits of these systems against their reliability issues and economic costs. Farmers are calling on the elimination of these requirements so that producers can focus on productivity, efficiency, and feeding the country.
▶ 0:53:37Mr. Fornstrom: Thank you again for the opportunity to testify, and I look forward to answering any of your questions. Thank you.
▶ 0:53:45Chair Capito: Thank you very much. Finally, we will hear from john walke, director of the national defense counsel senior affairs office, having previously worked at the epa as an attorney in the general counsel's office. He is, as I am, a graduate of duke, so we are looking pretty good this year. Welcome, please proceed with your opening statements.
▶ 0:54:13Mr. Walke: Thank you for the opportunity to testify today. I will start my statement with some reasons why I do not support today's legislation. Within my state I will address where congressional engagement is needed most, conducting crucial oversight and pushback against the executive branch carrying out historically sweeping and harmful attacks on american health and air quality safeguards.
▶ 0:54:39Mr. Walke: Turning to s 3153, in response to concerns relating to cold temperatures impacting the def system, epa directed manufacturers to both update onboard software and design engines to be able to run for a time without knox controls and without entering the limp mode. Last month epa requested that manufacturers provide that information to them within 30 days on system failures.
▶ 0:55:09Mr. Walke: A public process administered by epa that would include comment opportunities, soliciting important data, and appropriate avenue to address all relevant issues. I'm unaware of any other provision of the clean air act that would exempt any of the other states as today's bills would do, or exempt activities anywhere in the country that it is quote "unpractical," regardless of cold-weather, because of the word or in the
▶ 0:55:41Mr. Walke: Bill. I urge congress not to start here. Next, epa administrator zeldin boasts that he has undertaken the largest campaign deregulation in U.S. history. Since then, epa propose or finalize rules to roll back stronger clean-air protections that rollback clean-air protections to increase by hundreds of millions of tons. Last year U.S.
▶ 0:56:05Mr. Walke: Power plants that burned coal in increased dangers air pollution by the second most that they have over 30 years. Silver dioxide increased by 18%. Smog forming knox, nearly 12%. Epa data show the average amount of coal-fired electricity generation was dirtier last year than 2024, the result of more coal being burned to generate less electricity and assigned that people are diming back or turning off pollution controls.
▶ 0:56:35Mr. Walke: An article just yesterday shows epa is refusing to tell americans what factors might be behind these pollution spikes or how the increases are consistent with the administrator's pledge to ensure clean-air for all americans. This committee should bring the administrator before it to answer these questions and examine his rollbacks in pollution increases. Following is a partial list of dangerous epa rollbacks.
▶ 0:57:03Mr. Walke: They plan to roll back health standards for deadly suck pollution and reinstate unsafe standards. Independent scientists confirmed that this type of pollution resulted in many thousands of preventable deaths and hundreds of -- and hundreds of thousands of cases of avoidable asthma attacks.
▶ 0:57:21Mr. Walke: Not coincidentally, the epa announced in january that they would no longer value health benefits from clean-air safeguards and would assign these important benefits zero dollars, counting only industry compliance costs. The president himself has issued seven different proclamations across six weekends exempting 180 facilities from hazardous air pollution standards.
▶ 0:57:48Mr. Walke: Epa eliminated stronger standards from mercury and toxic soot pollution and repealed the need for continuous pollution monitors after the administrator found $167 per month for each piece of polluting equipment costs too much to disclose to americans how much toxic emissions are coming into their communities.
▶ 0:58:14Mr. Walke: $1160 costs too much to improve pollution control and compliance. Epa plans to rollback carbon emission standards. They've already rollback findings for greenhouse gases and repealed motor vehicle standards, as senator whitehouse said. It will mean annual increases of 410 million metric tons of greenhouse gases, two point one million tons of carbon monoxide, 270,000 tons of smog pollution.
▶ 0:58:44Mr. Walke: A reporter asked the president at the vehicle rollback announcement what he would tell americans concerned about the rollback coming at the costs of public health and the environment. The president replied, "I tell them, don't worry about it, it has nothing to do with public health. He misunderstood that it would costs americans more and concluded that they would have more money to spend for health care. Thank you for the opportunity to testify today.
▶ 0:59:13Chair Capito: Thank you. I am going to recognize myself as we begin the questioning portion. My first question is for Mr. anderson. I think that many of us, I guess you would call us the lower 48, wyoming understands, but I don't think we really understand -- I don't think we can fully grasp what cold weather really is. We think it is cold here, but obviously as you so described, is nothing like we see.
▶ 0:59:43Chair Capito: So, you want to make sure that we have safe, efficient, reliable transportation for the people and goods in your state. What is different with respect to public safety between a diesel engine def -- d-rate in D.C. and another in the north slope? You kind of alluded to this in your statements, but how would you say that occurs differently in alaska?
▶ 1:00:08Mr. Anderson: I can use an example just from last night, when we were informed that the dalton highway north of the arctic circle closed again because of a powerful storm of wind and snow and it will be closed for little over 24 hours, just because that's the situation up there. Our crew immediately went to work. For us, that's, that's mobilizing the equipment that we have. We cannot bring equipment from other locations.
▶ 1:00:38Mr. Anderson: That will take us 6, 12, even 18 hours if it is coming from fairbanks. The real difference here is that what we have, the resources that we have to work with for an event that happens in the response that's expected of us, the dalton highway is that lifeline for the oil and gas industry on the north slope.
▶ 1:01:01Mr. Anderson: It is our support arterial for the transatlantic pipeline -- trans-alaska pipeline system, so there is a lot of pressure on us by industry and then there is the public safety piece where people are stuck. It isn't just our folks that are working, but it is those people trying to get through and get these materials and supplies delivered and the people on the other end waiting for them that all get delayed. When we have the equipment fail, there is a cascading impact across the state, across all the industries.
▶ 1:01:31Chair Capito: How often, how frequently are you hearing from people who are concerned or directly impacted? Is it frequent?
▶ 1:01:40Mr. Anderson: Thank you, senator. Absolutely. Just in the past, as senator sullivan said in their letter to alaska, we've had an enormous number of people reaching out. We have our statewide equipment, just thousands of pieces, with the commercial trucking industry and enormous outreach from those companies.
▶ 1:02:05Mr. Anderson: That discussion about making significant impacts into the older vehicles, significant investments in the older vehicles because we don't want to move forward with newer vehicles. Fire departments have come forward to call it a problem for when they try to do active response activities. School bus companies have come forward. In rural alaska they are concerned about moving kids when it's 40 degrees below zero. They have examples of when failures have occurred.
▶ 1:02:33Mr. Anderson: It really has been just across the board. And then one alaska railroad on the report, as the commissioner of the dot, they reached out and called it impactful for their operations as well. For someone who is not as familiar with this issue and is getting familiar, you mentioned school buses, emergency vehicles, your trucks. These could also be personal vehicles if they are powered by diesel, correct?
▶ 1:03:01Mr. Anderson: Like an f-150 or something like that? That's correct. And a lot of folks in alaska, when they have those small pieces of equipment, I had an example from yesterday where they had a cabin out in rural alaska with a small piece of diesel equipment out there and of course, the system failed and they had to fly someone with a helicopter to fix it. It is happening to people all across alaska.
▶ 1:03:28Chair Capito: Thank you. Mr. fornstrom, a farmers livelihood, when we enumerated everything that you do, we thought -- you don't sleep much. That's what you farmers have to do. Can't just do one thing, you have to do a lot of different things. Anyway, you rely on a successful yield for each growing season, yields that are directly impacted by, and you mentioned this in your statement, planting and harvesting and when that can occur.
▶ 1:03:57Chair Capito: Could you say a bit about the potential consequences of a def for farmers in these types of citizens when you're planting or harvesting?
▶ 1:04:11Mr. Fornstrom: I had an example, this came to mind, we are always looking for good pieces of equipment and auction. The farmer that was selling the tractor, I asked him how good it was. Told him what I wanted to use the tractor four. He said -- you don't want this one. If it goes into the def -- d-rate mode, you can't run your green card like you want to. It pulls the harvest to a stop.
▶ 1:04:42Mr. Fornstrom: So, it is eliminating some of this equipment from different operations that farmers don't want to deal with. They are choosing not to buy newer equipment.
▶ 1:04:51Chair Capito: Thank you. Senator whitehouse?
▶ 1:04:56Sen. Whitehouse: Thank you very much, chairman. I cannot come to a hearing about the clean air act, even on a very narrow topic, without having to try to reckon with the behavior of trump's epa. The general destruction and nonenforcement of the clean air act by this epa is harmful to americans, not only in their health, but in their pocketbooks .
▶ 1:05:25Sen. Whitehouse: It is, in my view, completely inconsistent with things that administrators eldon said to this committee while seeking confirmation. The confirm us selden seeking confirmations eldon are two very different creatures. I would ask unanimous consent that an article about the air pollution spikes that have resulted on his policies be admitted to the record.
▶ 1:05:57Sen. Whitehouse: Things like not counting health harms, only counting industry costs and a benefit analysis. That doesn't even make sense. But epa willingly goes there. I am happy to work with senators sullivan and loomis on a sensible solution to this, but it has to be found in the recognition that this pollution is dangerous.
▶ 1:06:26Sen. Whitehouse: To over permit knocks pollution from tailpipes is a harm of its own. So, I hope we can work on it with that realization as a baseline. I would also add that fossil fuel emissions have put us on the front edge of what I call the great climate insurance collapse.
▶ 1:06:57Sen. Whitehouse: Which is very real, immediate in a great many states. Where flooding and wildfire risk are destroying homeowners insurance markets. That cascades into mortgage markets, from mortgage markets into real estate markets, from real estate markets into the banking sector. And generally into recession.
▶ 1:07:23Sen. Whitehouse: A former chief economist for freddie mac predicted a 2000 eight style recession from this meltdown based only on coastal property value crash, without even considering the wildfire risks that the west is now experiencing. These warnings do not come from the environmental community. They come from the fed, the fed chair. From freddie mac, their former chief economist. They come from the economist magazine. From the international financial stability board.
▶ 1:07:53Sen. Whitehouse: They come from the board members of the biggest insurance company in the world, aldean's, and the ceo of the american insurance giant, aion. They come from the former risk chief of goldman sachs. They come from the former head of the bank of england. They come from the mortgage bankers association, and they come in the form of an op-ed that I wrote with senator shaheen. So, we have got to be real about this.
▶ 1:08:21Sen. Whitehouse: I will look forward to working with my distinguished colleagues on solving this problem. To overlook all of that in the context of a hearing on the clean air act is more than I can bear. Mr. walke, you are from the nrdc and published a comprehensive report in 2021 finding that the health related costs of fossil fuel pollution are $820 billion per year from americans.
▶ 1:08:50Sen. Whitehouse: Can you explain a little bit that conclusion that led to 820 billion dollars in free load for the fossil fuel industry and how it harmed the american people?
▶ 1:09:00Mr. Walke: Senator, thank you. We look at the direct health impact that would flow from fossil fuel air pollution. That figure encompasses health hazards from strokes, heart attacks, cardiovascular disease, and overwhelmingly from about 107,000 premature deaths that are caused annually by fossil fuel pollution. That's using government figures for signing costs to that before the epa eliminated them.
▶ 1:09:31Mr. Walke: That was the figure we came up with.
▶ 1:09:34Sen. Lummis: I often -- Sen.
▶ 1:09:37Whitehouse: I often cite the imf analysis for fossil fuel. Not immediate cash subsidies through the tax code, but the subsidy of being allowed to pollute for free, which even very -- conservative economists understand his bad economics, violating the basic laws of a market economy. Their latest figure put it at 770 billion dollars per year.
▶ 1:10:04Whitehouse: That seems to track pretty well with your 820 billion dollar number, doesn't it?
▶ 1:10:12Mr. Walke: It does, but I would add that there are different ways of subsidizing fossil fuels. This administration just rolled back motor vehicle standards that will cause americans to spend over one trillion in added gasoline costs. I just noticed in the newspaper this morning that gasoline prices have risen at the prompt -- the pump 17% since the war was started in iran. The costs are additive. That doesn't even include the 800 billion figure that we found in direct health costs.
▶ 1:10:43Sen. Whitehouse: One side is costs, the other side's revenue, and that's what they are interested in. Thank you.
▶ 1:10:51Chair Capito: Senator lummis?
▶ 1:10:55Senator Lummis: Mr. lawrence from, -- Mr. fornstrom, Mr. anderson, you represent states with cold weather and significant transportation industries. Have you, or an employee, or in the case of you, Mr. fornstrom, farm bureau member, ever been stranded in the cold because of an improperly functioning def system?
▶ 1:11:22Mr. Fornstrom: Thank you for the question. Personally, I never have been. I do my best not to buy anything
▶ 1:11:29That Has Mr. Anderson: -- that has def in it, but in some equipment I do have to purchase it, and with a ranching as rural as it is, when the ranchers go out with this equipment, in wyoming we are famous for ground blizzards where we cannot see from me to you. They feed their cattle one mile from their house.
▶ 1:11:54That Has Mr. Anderson: If that equipment goes down because of a def problem, someone is going to die. They will be frozen before they can make it back to the house. Those are real worries that we have throughout the west. So.
▶ 1:12:09Chair Capito: -- Sen. lummis: Mr. anderson?
▶ 1:12:14Mr. Anderson: I'm not an equipment operator, but I've been impacted. When we have road closures, I've been impacted by road closures. In my role as commissioner, we are always looking at performance. We have had situations where hey, it's been taking us longer than normal. When you did again, that's because there's been equipment downed by these issues. It is a real impact across the board, from that perspective.
▶ 1:12:45Mr. Anderson: I have been in the shops with the mechanics who have showed me the problems. You know, this is real. It's a real impact and is having significant impact.
▶ 1:12:56Sen. Lummis: Mr. anderson, is there ever a case where there is plenty of def in the engine, but the def system still won't function?
▶ 1:13:07Mr. Anderson: From my discussions with our mechanics, there are a multitude of factors in these malfunctions. With the engine d-rates, that's typical when our folks are out in extreme cold temperatures trying to keep the roads open. Then they get stuck out 40, 50 miles from the nearest maintenance camp and have a piece of equipment that can only go five miles per hour.
▶ 1:13:33Mr. Anderson: It causes a lot of disruption to our services. But also, on equipment, when we are out working in these cold, cold temperatures, things freeze. Equipment isn't on all the time. If this fluid freezes, it crystallizes and causes other problems to the system, with injectors, in the tanks, multitude of problems.
▶ 1:14:02Mr. Anderson: It's not just noted to these d-rates, there are challenges where they can't even get the equipment started again.
▶ 1:14:11Sen. Lummis: Mr. fornstrom:
▶ 1:14:15Sen. Lummis: Mr. fornstrom, you mentioned that the mileage per gallon goes down when there is a def system installed. Does that mean you are consuming more and polluting more? [giggles] because you are getting fewer miles per gallon?
▶ 1:14:34Mr. Fornstrom: The background on that is I've run trucks since the early nile -- early 90's. When we started with the trucks, equivalent horsepower in size, we can run between six to 6.5 miles per hour diesel on those trucks. That was a pretty good mile per hour per gallon for us. Of late, if you talk to anybody who runs with that, they're hoping to get 4 miles per hour.
▶ 1:15:04Mr. Fornstrom: You're 50% higher at least in the efficiency. I think the petroleum companies probably love that. But I'm not sure as a consumer of that diesel fuel, at the prices they are now compared to what they were in the 1990's, it's putting a real pinch point on agriculture.
▶ 1:15:24Sen. Lummis: In one sense, the government trying to avoid nox emissions is creating more emissions because they're driving down the mileage you can get on a gallon of diesel.
▶ 1:15:44Mr. Fornstrom: Emissions of gallon per diesel for sure. For sure.
▶ 1:15:48Sen. Lummis: My time is expired, madam chairman, but the e.p.a. Under obama knew, they knew that systems didn't work well and posed a risk to public safety. And they mandated them anyway. What we need to do is, in some ways, what Mr. whitehouse described. We do need to remediate nox emissions. We need to reduce them. But there are ways to reduce them and still keep diesel engines running. That's what this bill is about.
▶ 1:16:21Sen. Lummis: Thanks, Mr. sullivan. I yield back.
▶ 1:16:23Chair Capito: Mr. padilla?
▶ 1:16:25Sen. Padilla: Thank you, madam chairman. To my colleagues on both sides of the aisle, try to keep an open mind her. But let me share the lens with which I'm approaching this conversation, recognizing that the e.p.a. Recently rescinded federal vehicle greenhouse gas emission standards, and last year congress, this senate, voted to rescind california's clean air act waiver authority.
▶ 1:16:57Sen. Padilla: Together, those actions have significantly narrowed california' ability to protect our own communities, our own constituents from vehicle emissions. Now, one argument for this bill is that regions with unique operating conditions deserve flexibility from the federal government in how they address emissions and emission requirements. That sounds common sense. But that argument cuts both ways.
▶ 1:17:28Sen. Padilla: If we are being asked to consider cold weather states and whether or not they deserve flexibility to weaken emission requirements based on their unique conditions, that's what I'm hearing as the basis for this proposal, that I'm sure through the same logic california also deserves flexibility to meet its unique standards and air quality challenges.
▶ 1:17:58Sen. Padilla: So my first question is for Mr. walke. In your view, what are the public health consequences for states like california that have now lost both the federal floor and their own authority to go even further? Mr. walke, thank you, senator.
▶ 1:18:16Sen. Padilla: It's well known that southern california, especially, but really the whole state faces some of the most challenging smog problems in the united states, and those come overwhelmingly from motor vehicles that the clean air act reserves to e.p.a., or california, with its special authority. And this administration has undermined that, as you noted. So has this body.
▶ 1:18:42Sen. Padilla: The emissions increases in nox resulting from the roll back of the motor vehicle standards by this e.p.a., rollbacks of power plant standards, the pollution spike from power plants, frankly, overwhelms the nox increases that might occur from the type of engines we're talking about today. So I'm struggling with how to balance all that. California is facing some of the worst of it from the rollbacks than the california waiver kind of weakening.
▶ 1:19:12Sen. Padilla: I think it's a combination, not just the population, but the size of the economy, aging infrastructure, growing infrastructure, along with topography and weather patterns that has resulted in, correct me if I'm wrong, but the last I checked, the plurality of americans living in other areas are the central -- southern california air quality management district of the central valley, those two parts
▶ 1:19:43Sen. Padilla: Of california combined, the plurality of americans living in nonattainment areas.
▶ 1:19:51Mr. Walke: That's correct.
▶ 1:19:52Sen. Padilla: What we'd like to do is the government allow them to go further, passenger vehicles is one thing, stationary resources, power plants, its sets is another. But it's a federal jurisdiction that's the biggest, last nut to crack. Think locomotives. Technology is leading us quickly, if we let those seeking to innovate do so more aggressively, but realistically balancing our economic growth. That's just one example.
▶ 1:20:20Sen. Padilla: Let me also remind ourselves, colleagues, over the past year we've seen the e.p.a. Grant these exemptions from emissions and toxic pollution standards to a significant number of industrial facilities or sectors of the economy, often through mechanisms that bypass the normal notice and comment process. The bill before us today again would add a statutory exemption on top of that administrative process. Mr.
▶ 1:20:50Sen. Padilla: Walke, do you have any concerns that normalizing broad exemptions, even once it seemed targeted and reasonable on their face, could ultimately undermine the consistency and enforceability of the rules that everyone is supposed to be operating under, and thereby distorting markets?
▶ 1:21:09Mr. Walke: I do, senator, and I think there are better solutions than exemptions, statutory exemptions. I do want to emphasize that this exemption is not limited to alaska. It's available to the entire united states. And in fact, it's not even limited to cold temperature because of the way that the bill is worded, ambient air temperature without regard to cold weather. That may be inadvertent, but that's what the bill says.
▶ 1:21:34Mr. Walke: So I think that there are solutions available through regulatory channels with greater technical expertise than I have or this body has, and I encourage those to proceed. Thank you.
▶ 1:21:45Sen. Padilla: Thank you. Very much.
▶ 1:21:48Chair Capito: Senator sullivan?
▶ 1:21:49Sen. Sullivan: Thank you, madam chair. I want to thank commission errander son in particular for his really -- commission errander son in particular for his really excellent testimony. You're from fairbanks. How cold was it this winter? In december, just december, it was really, really, really cold, wasn't it?
▶ 1:22:14Mr. Anderson: We had temperatures below 30 below for several weeks. I believe it was a 50-year record for cold temperatures in fairbanks.
▶ 1:22:22Sen. Curtis: Fairbanks get really cold. My wife is from fairbanks.
▶ 1:22:28Sen. Sullivan: That's consistent, too. I think the month of december at 25 below for most of the entire month, right?
▶ 1:22:36Mr. Anderson: That's correct, along with the darkness.
▶ 1:22:39Sen. Sullivan: In the hall road, what we call the hall road, the dalton highway, explain that a little bit. It's about 500 miles from fair it's about 500 miles from fa fairbanks to dead horse, correct?
▶ 1:22:55Mr. Anderson: 500 miles, it's a combination of some pavement, but mostly gravel.
▶ 1:23:00Sen. Sullivan: Mostly gravel. Mr. anderson, in the winter time we put ice on top to keep it smoother.
▶ 1:23:08Sen. Sullivan: Those are the ice road truckers was talking about, dangerous duty without the d.e.f. System and then let's think if you're north of the yukon river, my wife and I, we go up to the yukon every summer, so we drive the haul road ourselves. But if you're north of the river, how many gas stations are between north of the yukon river and dead horse in the winter?
▶ 1:23:32Mr. Anderson: One gas station at a place called cold foot.
▶ 1:23:36Sen. Sullivan: Yukon river to dead horse is about 350 miles.
▶ 1:23:43Mr. Anderson: That's correct.
▶ 1:23:46Sen. Sullivan: There's one gas. This is kind of the sense of the challenge. The fact that it's the economic lifeline of alaska, can you unpack that a little bit more again for the witness? Why? What's up in dead horse? Mr. anderson, the oil fields, that is, back in the 1960's, the big oil finds in alaska, the transalaska pipeline, takes the oil. I think we're doing about 400,000 barrels per day.
▶ 1:24:16Sen. Sullivan: We're turning that around.
▶ 1:24:18Mr. Anderson: That's been super positive. But if you're a lot of the alaska, the majority, that's what drives our economy. That's the revenue that drives our state government across the board, even our permit fund dividend. That's been generated from oil revenues.
▶ 1:24:34Sen. Sullivan: The country, especially now, needs that as well. We're producing oil in alaska that americans need. A lot of it goes to california. That's a whole other topic. Let me ask this question. I thought your statistics in your opening statement were kind of shocking to me.
▶ 1:24:54Sen. Sullivan: I mean, I've been focused on this issue for a long time you said, and I quote, the internal maintenance data and field experience indicate that between 70 and 80% of the diesel engine maintenance issues encountered in the past two years as parted of the department of transportation of alaska are reeled to this def system.
▶ 1:25:19Mr. Anderson: That's correct.
▶ 1:25:19Sen. Sullivan: How many pieces of equipment are we talking about? You have thousands of diesel equipment, don't you?
▶ 1:25:26Mr. Anderson: The d.o.t. In alaska runs the fleet for the entire state of alaska. So it's thousands of pieces of equipment across the state.
▶ 1:25:33Sen. Sullivan: 70% to 80% of your diesel challenges with that equipment relates to this problem?
▶ 1:25:42Mr. Anderson: That's correct.
▶ 1:25:44Sen. Sullivan: 10% of the department at any point has unavailable equipment because of that?
▶ 1:25:51Mr. Anderson: That's correct.
▶ 1:25:54Sen. Sullivan: That's giant cost just to the department, correct?
▶ 1:25:59Mr. Anderson: Absolutely.
▶ 1:26:00Sen. Sullivan: Let me ask you, Mr. fornstrom, you talked about cost to farmers. Auto I'm a big fan of america's farmers, but you mention this idea a lot of times when commodity prices or farm prices are not as high as they need, your margins can be really, really low, right? Just be a farmer who can make ends meet. So what about, you mentioned briefly the cost of this for farmers. Is that something else?
▶ 1:26:31Sen. Sullivan: It's not just a huge cost to the alaska department of transportation, but to farmers in wyoming, isn't this impacting your ability to make a livelihood?
▶ 1:26:40Mr. Fornstrom: Yeah. You mentioned prices being low. Low would be great. The negative runs are the ones that hurt. It adds to our cost of production. Everybody here knows that agriculture is a price taker. We can't add money to what we're charging for our wheat. You will take it, and you'll pay for it, or you won't do it anymore. And daf is nothing more than an add-on for expense.
▶ 1:27:11Sen. Sullivan: We need to work on this. To my colleague, senator whitehouse, none of us are saying we shouldn't do anything about nox, but we need to have regulations that actually are not one size fits all, that really, really penalize states like mine in a huge way. You know, a rag written by lawyers in D.C. that don't have a clue about any of this stuff, not a clue. And that's not right. That's not the way the federal government is supposed to work, and we're going to fix it, so thank you.
▶ 1:27:40Chair Capito: Look forward to working with you to do that. Senator ricketts?
▶ 1:27:46Sen. Ricketts: Thank you very much, madam chairman, and thank you to our witnesses for coming to talk about this important issue. Diesel engines are an important part for many vehicles, including in the agricultural industry. In states like nebraska, where we experience cold, though not as cold as alaska, and highly variable weather, these systems face additional operational challenges.
▶ 1:28:08Sen. Ricketts: Nebraska agriculture producers report that emissions-related issues, particularly with the def systems, account for a majority of their machinery repairs, similar to what my colleague from alaska was just saying. Major grievance is that when a def sensor fails or the system malfunctions, it often triggers limp mode, where a tractor or combine loses power and speed, causing critical delays during planting or harvesting.
▶ 1:28:37Sen. Ricketts: During the seasons, especially, farm operations rely on narrow windows to be able to do the planting or harvesting. If equipment malfunctions and a tractor derates during the windows, farmers can miss critical timelines, which can negatively affect the entire season's crop yield. On top of failing engines, these failures can cost producers thousands of dollars in repairs and lost productivity. This is also a major safety hazard, especially in bitter cold weather.
▶ 1:29:07Sen. Ricketts: Allowing manufacturers to spend engine d-rate or shut down functions that operate in cold provides target relief for farmers in nebraska. Applaud the trump administration's e.p.a., who recognized this challenge by publishing guidance that allows greater flexibility and longer warning periods before d-rate occurs. Mr. fornstrom, how does the e.p.a. Guidance and this legislation in tandem provide long-term regulatory relief needed for our agriculture and trucking industries?
▶ 1:29:38Mr. Fornstrom: Thank you for the question. We all know out in the rural parts of america that these regulations, they move around so much. This codification by the legislative body will be -- it gives us a direction to head at least. It takes away one of those questions that we'll have as when will it change and where will it go next?
▶ 1:30:06Sen. Ricketts: Why is that important for farmers?
▶ 1:30:10Mr. Fornstrom: We think in terms of years, not next week. I planted crop that will harvest the next five years. And in those planting, we need to know where things are going to be. I mean, it's just a planning process. We need to know.
▶ 1:30:23Sen. Ricketts: Certainty is really important.
▶ 1:30:27Mr. Fornstrom: It's super important.
▶ 1:30:29Sen. Ricketts: In the trucking industry, these system failures have also caused serious safety risk. The clean air act regulations were not intended to jeopardize human safety or mobility, as my colleague from alaska was talking about. Ultimately, this legislation is about protecting lives while maintaining practical and workable standards. Mr. anderson, Mr.
▶ 1:30:49Sen. Ricketts: Fornstrom, can you speak to the safety and operational benefits of this legislation and how it will help address the challenges drivers and operators are currently facing?
▶ 1:31:05Mr. Fornstrom: I live on a stretch of highway called interstate 80. It goes right through the middle of your state. In fact, I live on the other end of it. I live right on the border. So we travel cheyenne to kimball, nebraska, regularly. On my given day, it doesn't matter if it's cold outside or hot outside, there will be one to a half a dozen trucks in about a 70-mile stretch, and they're all parked alongside the road.
▶ 1:31:34Mr. Fornstrom: I've asked the local mechanics, what is going on with all these trucks? And they say most of the time it's an emission issue. D-rate shuts them down, puts them on the side of the interstate. If you've ever stopped on the interstate, on I-80 and tried to get off the road far enough, you can't get far enough off the road.
▶ 1:31:55Sen. Ricketts: It's dangerous, yeah.
▶ 1:31:57Mr. Fornstrom: It's dangerous.
▶ 1:31:59Sen. Ricketts: That happens even in warm weather? What are some of the other causes of the he missions failures?
▶ 1:32:09Mr. Fornstrom: It's a problem in the heat also. It degrades in the heat.
▶ 1:32:15Mr. Fornstrom: Talk to me a little bit about that. So when you add def, it actually can degrade in the heat. So if you get warm temperatures, that increases, is that an issue where the nox emissions are increasing and that's why it causes shutdown, or is it a problem with the emissions system somehow malfunctioning?
▶ 1:32:37Mr. Fornstrom: I don't know how that system works. I would assume, you hear all sorts of situations, whether it's a sensor, a broken tank, whether it's, I mean, these systems, they're plastic tanks. And where we're from, the roads aren't always smooth. In the winter time, I guess everybody forgets that we shut these things off every so often. And when you shut them off, that's when it freezes. And then it breaks the tank.
▶ 1:33:05Sen. Ricketts: It expands?
▶ 1:33:07Mr. Fornstrom: It's like 50% water. So it expands the tank, breaks it, and now you're setting with a piece of equipment with a broken tank, with no way forward to get the def.
▶ 1:33:18Sen. Ricketts: Madam chairman, do you mind if I let Mr. anderson respond quickly? If you could respond quickly as well.
▶ 1:33:25Mr. Anderson: On the light safety issue, just imagine you're a o ani egypt operator and it's 40 below. You're out trying to keep a road open so other people don't get stuck in those same conditions, and eury egypt d-rates or breaks down. You're there, help may be hours away. I mean, we have good communication structures, but it still takes time and now you're in an uncertain situation with snow conditions changing, weather conditions changing rapidly, and you're basically helpless.
▶ 1:33:54Mr. Anderson: And that for us, that's a real concern from our department.
▶ 1:33:58Sen. Ricketts: That's the point. Legislation that increases public safety is common sense, and I look forward to working on this.
▶ 1:34:05Chair Capito: Senator sullivan has asked to ask a few more questions. He's the sponsor of the bill, go forward.
▶ 1:34:13Sen. Sullivan: Mr. walke, I wanted to look at a little bit of your testimony. You had mentioned in your written testimony -- by the way, I read most of it. It was almost 30 pages. Very impressive. But you said that administrator zeldin in february took further action to "address perceived
▶ 1:34:43Sen. Sullivan: Concerns." do you think these are perceived concerns or real concerns? Perceived, in my view, is kind of dismissive, right? I got, for the record, a whole bunch of alaskaians who aren't perceived. These are real concerns. The commissioner just, I think, very, very strongly laid out real concerns. So when you say perceived, it's kind of dismissive of what we're talking about here. Is that your testimony?
▶ 1:35:13Sen. Sullivan: You think these are perceived concerns? Wouldn't you call them real concerns?
▶ 1:35:18Mr. Walke: These are absolutely real concerns. In my testimony, if I use that word, and I trust that I did, I thought it was in a quote, if it's not in a quote, then I withdraw the word perceived.
▶ 1:35:32Sen. Sullivan: I appreciate that. Thank you. I have a lot of respect for the nrdc, but you also mentioned that the bill is unnecessary and harmful to the health of alaskans. That's another quote.
▶ 1:35:46Sen. Sullivan: I mean, I know this def thing is really harmful to the safety of alaskans, so again, we need to address the nox issues, but you got to do it smartly so you don't take one state that's got a lot of cold weather and present really, really dangerous situations, let alone cost, which in our state, are probably in the tens of millions that relate to this regulation.
▶ 1:36:16Sen. Sullivan: Is that still your testimony, or is your main testimony, hey, we shouldn't try to fix this through a law, we should try to fix it through the regulatory process?
▶ 1:36:26Mr. Walke: My testimony is the regulatory process can balance the very real nox health conditioners, the very real safety and access concerns in alaska. I mean, we're hearing in this hearing that this is not just about alaska. It's now about all nox emissions control systems apparently, including in warm temperatures, and the bill is written to apply it to the entire united states. I just don't think this is a balanced process.
▶ 1:36:54Sen. Sullivan: It's got a primary focus, the bill has a primary focus on cold weather operations, where the systems really freeze up. Let me turn to commission errand ererrand -- commissioner andersn ererrand -- commissioner anders. We're talking about how you're having a clear road.
▶ 1:37:19Sen. Sullivan: One other testimony, I want to make sure it's in the record, madam chair, the interior alaska fire chief association, so they submitted testimony, and I thought this was very powerful. They're from the interior part of the state. Fairbanks, the fire chiefs are saying, hey, we got to fix this because our fire trucks work.
▶ 1:37:46Sen. Sullivan: When we're going out to address a burning building and people's lives are at stake, they're worried about the operational reliability of their fire trucks. I know this isn't exactly d.o.t. Area, but it's safety, and you're talking about safety. Our fire chiefs are also saying this is a big problem.
▶ 1:38:08Mr. Anderson: That wasn't the only fire chief that commented. Anchorage is our largest city in lass, they put in testimonials about this problem. It's a bigger air, absolutely.
▶ 1:38:20Sen. Sullivan: Just again, for our witnesses, anchorage doesn't get as cold as fairbanks usually, but this winter anchorage has been 10, 15, almost 20 below zero for a decent part of the winter. So anchorage has gotten really cold this winter, too I'm glad you're saying that's the other fire chiefs. Well, madam chair, I really appreciate you holding this hearing.
▶ 1:38:45Sen. Sullivan: I want to commend the witnesses, all the witnesses, and I want to thank you and senator lummis and senator rick he says. I want to work with you and senator whitehouse on what I think this hearing clearly demonstrates there's a problem, right? A big problem. This is classic one size fits all, and I'm just glad, knock on wood, nobody in my state has been killed yet because of this. Because if you're stranded on the dalton highway, it's 50 below zero, you have no cell service. That's very high danger.
▶ 1:39:16Sen. Sullivan: We need to fix it.
▶ 1:39:18Chair Capito: Thank you. I couldn't agree more. With no further questions, I'd like to thank the witnesses and all my colleagues for your participation in today's hearing. Thank you. Senators who wish to submit written questions for the record have until 5:00 p.m. On wednesday, march 25, to do so. The witnesses' responses to those questions are due back to the committee no later than 5:00 p.m. On wednesday, april 8, and will be submitted for the record. With that, this hearing adjourned, and thank you all.