▶ 0:18:11Chair Cassidy: Our country has the best in the world major breakthroughs in cancer research, military technology, more happens at our universities by the way it is sensitive and sometimes it is classified. As our higher education system leads the world, therefore it becomes a matter of national security.
▶ 0:18:36Chair Cassidy: The department of war invested average of $10 million a year of -- ensuring we are at the forefront of innovation. That priority could be undermined when foreign adversaries attempt to exercise influence on college campuses inherently threatening national security.
▶ 0:19:00Chair Cassidy: This hearing is about foreign governments and countries contribution to our universities. Just because somebody else contributes to our university does not mean it is malicious. We cannot free judge that we cannot be naïve. We have to look at this in a way in which we attempt to understand and if there is a theme in this conversation it will be about transparency.
▶ 0:19:27Chair Cassidy: There are many success stories of this age helping american students and helping people around the world with a collaboration that is fruitful and helping to solve complex problems. There's a lot of aid at play here. This is from the department of education.
▶ 0:19:55Chair Cassidy: I take no blame for breaking up england from the united kingdom. I think it shows the united kingdom when it is a good scottish tennis player and it is angry when it's a good english tennis player. That is their thing. On the other hand we cannot be naïve.
▶ 0:20:18Chair Cassidy: The returns when the money serves allegedly it is covered with universities, this research and talent with anti-american ideology.
▶ 0:20:34Chair Cassidy: In 2020 the department of justice invited a harvard university chemistry chair for lying about his affiliation with china's thousand towns plan a recent research program run by the chinese communist party to learn chinese students back to china. In 2024 the house select committee discovered that china gained access to some of america's highly sensitive military technology through a partnership with georgia tech that was not disclosed.
▶ 0:21:05Chair Cassidy: We have seen foreign influence in other parts of campus life. The fallout on the october 7 anti-semitic attack, the pro-hamas students caused chaos on over 275 college campuses with chance of death to america and death to israel. Again, on college campuses we heard death to america.
▶ 0:21:33Chair Cassidy: Pointed out that institutions shape individuals. 16-year-olds shaped by a marine like experience. Very positive. You will be shaped by these certain views. Views are death to america is a threat particularly at elite universities is a threat to our country. Iran publicly praise these movements.
▶ 0:22:03Chair Cassidy: That could be taken as an influence as evidence of their influence. That is just what we know. The difference between american college students having thoughtful dialogue, exploring ideas and beliefs, and becoming sympathizers with radical ideology in which we have death to america. We have freedom of speech here. Let's not be naïve. That's what this theme is. We need to protect college campuses.
▶ 0:22:33Chair Cassidy: The way we protect is through transparency. 9.7 billion were reported last year and gifts for that only accounts for dollars that had been reported. There has been zero accountability. You heard the old adage, follow the money. Passing the deterrence act is the next step. Reporting loopholes and increased accountability providing transparency to congress, intelligence agencies.
▶ 0:23:04Chair Cassidy: Louisiana, florida, alabama have passed similar laws. This is a national security concern and requires federal legislation. I think president trump for taking this threat seriously and protecting institutions, students, research by streamlining the process. The department of education will be better equipped to protect the U.S. from bad actors. We are not prejudging.
▶ 0:23:34Chair Cassidy: If somebody is building a medical school in the middle east, that is a good thing. If somebody is researching better ways to handle water or explore minerals, that is a good thing. If somebody wants to influence in the net -- influence us in a negative way or steal information, that is a bad thing. We need to know if other countries are trying to steal research with an anti-american ideology.
▶ 0:24:01Chair Cassidy: We know when other countries are making financial contributions it might be innocent or not. With that we will go to our witnesses. I will begin by introducing Dr. peter would.
▶ 0:24:27Chair Cassidy: He is the president of the national association of scholars, a nonprofit that conducts research and advocacy focused on transparency. He served as a tenured associate professor at boston university as well as associate provost and chief of staff to the president. He received his bachelor's from haverford college. Thank you for being here.
▶ 0:24:52Dr. Wood: I'm delighted to have this opportunity to address this committee taking on really important work. I thought I would just jump right in by putting some facts on the table.
▶ 0:25:11Dr. Wood: The nation of qatar between 2000 one and 2021 dave 4.7 billion dollars to american universities. Since then the total has gone to 6.6 billion. Of that, 2.3 billion went to cornell university alone.
▶ 0:25:34Dr. Wood: That little island in the english channel gave a total of $441 million to yale. No one thinks guernsey is an enemy of the united states or an adversary. It is bizarre that a nation of 67,000 people could give half $1 billion a year to one of america's elite universities. Where is the money really coming from?
▶ 0:26:04Dr. Wood: What is it being spent time? With qatar, we don't know. We have some idea. They have the medical school in doha. They have given money to m.I.t., harvard, rutgers, stamford, ucla , carnegie mellon, georgetown, about 25 other american colleges and universities. Why? What is qatar getting from this?
▶ 0:26:34Dr. Wood: We really don't know. That is a question worth asking. What this committee has ahead of it is the issue of what is the problem at hand and what are the solutions? The problem at hand is the american technology and expertise has flooded across the ocean to china.
▶ 0:26:58Dr. Wood: In 2014, a member of my organization called me and said my college president is bringing ache in trisha's institute to my campus, do you know what that is? I said I didn't know but I would find out. It took me two years, many freedom of information requests, dozens of businesses. China launched an agent of influence operation run by the proper -- propaganda agency that was the chinese communist party.
▶ 0:27:31Dr. Wood: They offered colleges not only free teachers and free textbooks . When we started calling this out china lined up college presidents saying this is a wholesome exchange of ideas. We are engaged in cultural exchange. After we kept pouring on the data.
▶ 0:28:00Dr. Wood: They pulled the plug on the confucius institute. I continue to believe they are around by the dozens and have been rebranded the way d.e.I. Is being rebranded. China's influence to confucius how much is china spending to buy influence in american higher education? It's getting a lot from whatever it is. Access to america's best intellectual talent.
▶ 0:28:31Dr. Wood: It manages to trick a lot of these people into cooperative arrangements. American ideas and technologies just pours out of the country. There is very little the country has done to stop this. There's a money problem here about an influence problem.
▶ 0:28:52Dr. Wood: What do americans know about china if they are engaged in universities with can trisha's institutes or their successors they are not learning anything about the south china sea the organ harvesting, the vast number of mischievous things that china engages in that the american public knows very little about.
▶ 0:29:18Dr. Wood: The vulnerabilities are built into their strengths. The great strength of american higher education is its openness it has been seized by our adversaries and exploited beautifully well to take advantage of what we are able to bolt down.
▶ 0:29:46Chair Cassidy: Next is Mr. craig singleton. A senior fellow at the foundation of defense of democracies, a nonpartisan research institute. He spent two decades on U.S. china relations including serving as a U.S. diplomat. He received his bachelor's degree from the university of florida, master degree from texas a&m university.
▶ 0:30:14Chair Cassidy: I forgive you for being from two sec rivals of lsu, we look forward to hearing from you today.
▶ 0:30:23Mr. Singleton: Thank you for inviting me to testify today regarding for influence in american higher education. I'm pleased to offer insights for the foundation of defense of democracies where I serve a senior fellow. -- serve as a senior fellow. U.S.
▶ 0:30:44Mr. Singleton: Universities anchor the world's most dynamic research environment, they produce breakthroughs in science, medicine, engineering, technology that drive growth, strengthen security, and reinforce the united states global leadership in innovation. The openness collaboration and intellectual exchange that define american academia are enduring strengths.
▶ 0:31:08Mr. Singleton: At the same time though strengths have made american universities attractive targets for exploitations for foreign adversaries, especially china. Beijing and other regimes understand U.S. universities sit at the center of america's innovation space, talent pipeline and advanced research ecosystem.
▶ 0:31:32Mr. Singleton: Acquiring sensitive knowledge and technology, shaping research partnerships, cultivating influence, monitoring students and dissidents and garnering strategic objectives that encounter national security interests. It also requires clarity. The united states benefits enormously from collaboration.
▶ 0:32:00Mr. Singleton: The partnerships, funding arrangements, and institutional ties involving foreign countries or entities going to them were in fargo -- war in far greater scrutiny than they have received. The question is not whether they should remain locally engaged, they should. The question is whether they have adequate safeguards in place to ensure openness is not exploited by maligned actors. One of the biggest obstacles to answering that question was a lack of transparency.
▶ 0:32:31Mr. Singleton: Regulators and in many cases universities themselves lack the tools to fully understand the scale, origin, strategic implications of foreign funding and foreign link partnerships. Enforcement was uneven and public disability was limited. Increasingly that picture was beginning to change. The new foreign funding program represents an important step forward.
▶ 0:33:00Mr. Singleton: Better data makes it harder to ignore. Early disclosure helps illustrate the scale of foreign engagement. According to federal reporting data china loan has contributed $6.8 billion in gifts and contracts to american universities over time. Universities reported nearly 400 million dollars in trade actions involving entities on the U.S. government watch list or the restricted entity list.
▶ 0:33:33Mr. Singleton: National security concerns and china's military civil fusion program. These figures do not necessarily apply to universities but they do highlight a broader structural challenge. Universities are expected to navigate complex national security risks without standardized due diligence tools. Congress has the opportunity to modernize transparency with academic openness.
▶ 0:34:04Mr. Singleton: I outlined several practical steps. First, congress should strengthen transparency requirements governing foreign contracts under section 117 of the higher education act. Policymakers should institutionalize and support the department of education foreign transparency portal. Universities would benefit from clear guidance and information sharing for research collaborations.
▶ 0:34:33Mr. Singleton: Fourth, institutions that receive federal research funding should meet much stronger research standards. Finally policymakers may wish to consider targeted screening tied to institutional affiliations with individuals involved in military civil fusion or that appear on relevant U.S. watch lists. These steps would modernize oversight in american higher education while preserving the openness that makes our universities the best in the world.
▶ 0:35:05Mr. Singleton: I thank you again for writing to testify today.
▶ 0:35:08Chair Cassidy: Senator kim will introduced Mr. daly.
▶ 0:35:15Sen. Kim: Mr. daly is a senior fellow for the age of society serving as the former director at the kissinger institute on china from 2013 through 2025. He began his work in the U.S.-china relations at the american embassy in beijing in the late 1980's. He is a director on U.S. china relations and the U.S. mandarin society.
▶ 0:35:45Sen. Kim: Leaving numerous dialogues. He has interpreted chinese-american leaders including jimmy carter and henry kissinger.
▶ 0:35:59Mr. Daly: Good morning and thank you very much. I thank all members of the committee for the opportunity to testify today. We are here to assess the state of maligned foreign influence in american higher education and to ask how academia and government could continue to enhance their cooperation and protect research integrity.
▶ 0:36:26Mr. Daly: Many countries were formerly designated, I will focus on china, my area of expertise. As detailed, I have spent years working with universities and government agencies to make sure they share these concerns. And to ensure they appreciate the certain types of interaction with china. Government and academia must work in tandem.
▶ 0:36:58Mr. Daly: About four maligned influence and especially chinese influences reasonable and necessary to protect our national security of academic integrity with the reasons that we have already laid out. Everything we know about the moments and methods of the chinese communist party indicates they will try to exploit the vulnerabilities created by openness in internationalization of our colleges and universities.
▶ 0:37:26Mr. Daly: This U.S.-china comprehensive rivalry is likely going to last for decades. We don't have a quick fix. These threats will continue and we need constant vigilance and we will need to constantly adapt. They begin working closely with higher educational institutions to reduce these risks a decade ago. This cooperation was sometimes difficult but it was necessary.
▶ 0:37:54Mr. Daly: The good news for us is this cooperation was also working. American universities have taken on washington's concerns and they work diligently and at a considerable expense to anticipate and counter the actions of countries of concern. American security agencies and congress as well have developed common concerns with talking about habits of cooperation.
▶ 0:38:25Mr. Daly: I want to emphasize there has been a success story. It is not a cause for panic. Certainly not a cause for a renewed wave of accusations. If we had in the portal a time series that showed not only as we just saw the cumulative donations from american universities, some of which go back to the 1980's.
▶ 0:38:52Mr. Daly: If we were able to see each country over each year we would find that since we started working together on this, those donations have been down. One of the biggest silences. It is all cumulative. It is also worth noting to date there have been no convictions of university persons for conducting espionage on behalf of china.
▶ 0:39:16Mr. Daly: There have been cases of program fraud, failures, disclosure, lying under oath, tax evasion in some baffling levels of bad practice. All of which are extremely concerning and indicative of problems that we haven't seen in espionage. The lack of convictions is the problem has been slightly overstated. Despite our reasonable suspicions. Or that perhaps we are managing it increasingly well.
▶ 0:39:46Mr. Daly: In the next phase of cooperation going forward academia and government work together, we have to move beyond our reasonable suspicions and formulate policies based on data. That is the only way to get an accurate picture.
▶ 0:40:02Mr. Daly: What is missing from the beginning is an effort to way demonstrable harms, not the suspicions, the demonstrable harms done to american security with foreign influence on campus against the many that we have raved by attracting foreign talent, that measure is not there. We need a cost-benefit analysis based on evidence to guide us going forward.
▶ 0:40:31Mr. Daly: Our ultimate concern is for american security vis-à-vis china. Our emphasis needs to be not on the already vigilant universities but on rebuilding our own scientific and industrial might. We must not abandon defensive measures. We need to move from defense to offense to build up our own systems. We are better on offense. Thank you.
▶ 0:40:59Chair Cassidy: I will defer to senator marshall.
▶ 0:41:10Sen. Marshall: Welcome to our witnesses today. I will focus on more on the importance of intellectual property theft. That is my biggest concern. Already with all of our federal resources made public the whole world benefits from that.
▶ 0:41:28Sen. Marshall: As we allow foreign students into our research, let's talk about china for a second, even if they don't walk out with papers they are walking out with a lot of information in their brains. You can't always reproduce the research but we could say this didn't work, this didn't work, this didn't work. Mr.
▶ 0:41:52Sen. Marshall: Singleton, in your mind is there any foolproof way of keeping china from stealing our intellectual property no matter how many policies we create?
▶ 0:42:02Mr. Singleton: I think it was a 2019 senate investigation revealed chinese intellectual property theft robbed us of $200 billion to $600 billion per year. It has already been quantified. The house select committee young countering the ccp released a report this year so that even today there are thousands of jointly published research reports between U.S.
▶ 0:42:30Mr. Singleton: Academics and chinese academics from institutions affiliated with china's military. That is happening today. You are right to point out the restrictions and the need on these partnerships. We have to ask ourselves whether dod research funding should be allowed to flow to U.S. universities that maintain partnerships with chinese researchers.
▶ 0:42:58Mr. Singleton: As of today there are no restrictions. That seems like one area where we could protect our most vital and sensitive property. >> I agree with senator cassidy it is a good thing to have american universities in the middle east. They are all over the world. It is a great way to build relationships as well.
▶ 0:43:30Mr. Singleton: It's important to point out that when we have our list of who is getting what, qatar, 90% of that is going to fund six universities in qatar. It is not a gift to those universities. We should be complementing what they are doing. Trying to develop a knowledge-based economy.
▶ 0:43:57Mr. Singleton: My only criticism is they chose texas a&m for engineering over kansas state. These are the who's who. It is costly. Cornell, it is very expensive to have premier medical programs as well. Virginia commonwealth for the school of arts, I mentioned carnegie mellon. Georgetown for international affairs. Northwestern for journalism.
▶ 0:44:27Mr. Singleton: All universities with great histories as well. I think it is important to track the money and the influence. I hope these universities are making a little money on them and maybe it helps fund some undergraduate scholarships as well. I will leave it there and appreciate you bringing attention to this as well.
▶ 0:44:55Mr. Singleton: I look forward to I believe senator tillis has a bill that we are considering that has some work to do.
▶ 0:45:03Sen. Murray: Thank you for having this hearing on higher education, a critical topic for a lot of us. I have to say in the context of what is happening globally right now I find it kind of absurd that trump and republicans are willing to burn billions of dollars per day on a new war that no one asked for.
▶ 0:45:26Sen. Murray: When it comes to public schools I have been having to fight tooth and nail to get this trump administration to release billions of dollars that congress appropriated to be delivered to our students and it is not happening. States like mine are having to routinely file lawsuits. This comes from an administration that routinely claims to be returning education to the states.
▶ 0:45:52Sen. Murray: I have a problem with the fact that this president is sending off or promising young men or women and our incredibly important resources when it comes to sending folks to college we have to fight to protect even pell grant's. It seems like trump has started this war in the middle east with no plan or objective. He is hitting the ground running with the demolishing of the department of education.
▶ 0:46:22Sen. Murray: Parents I talk to every day don't want this president sending our kids to a war that has no end. They don't want him wasting billions of dollars on missiles and misadventures. What they want is to make sure they get access to a good education. If you want to put america first it starts by putting our kids first.
▶ 0:46:47Sen. Murray: I have to say I'm pretty troubled that we are having this hearing today to add even more responsibilities to the department of education when we still have not had secretary mcmahon before us to answer some really serious questions about what she is doing right now, an illegal scheme to dismantle the department of education.
▶ 0:47:11Sen. Murray: Despite congress, all of us saying on the bipartisan bill in our appropriations the department does not have the authority to do this, mcmahon is marching full steam ahead to dismantle the department of education. She has proof of concept that has given no proof about improved efficiency. What we know is the first dismantling agreement for cta is costing taxpayers.
▶ 0:47:43Sen. Murray: I hope we get secretary mcmahon in front of our committee soon. It is something we all deeply care about. On the topic for us today, I worked with both senator alexander and senator hirono, section 117 already requires colleges and universities to disclose significant foreign gifts and contracts to the department of education and institutions have spent years building compliant systems
▶ 0:48:13Sen. Murray: Around that process. The administration announced an interagency agreement shifting aspects of section 117 oversight to the department of state as part of its broader effort. It is really raised concerns about confusion for institutions who are trying to comply with the law.
▶ 0:48:37Sen. Murray: I wanted to ask you, how would moving section 117 oversight away from the department of education may compliance more complicated for our colleges and universities?
▶ 0:48:52Mr. Daly: It is a moving target because we don't know what is happening at the department of education. With section 117 verse past as part of the higher education act, it was the judgment of congress that this belongs within the department of education. It is congress's prerogative to move it. I do see one small advantage of that. The state department there is knowledge of china.
▶ 0:49:28Mr. Daly: Breaking down different kinds of giving from the different countries. Not all giving from china is the same. Most of these are with the chinese communist parties. All of whom are ultimately subject to the guidance of the chinese party. They have multiple different modes. Area knowledge I think is going to be important going forward.
▶ 0:49:59Mr. Daly: They need to be reflected within the portal so that not only do we need to see how giving from each country is doing it over time, we need to see which different types of giving is from very wealthy chinese individuals who want to show off to their friends. Some of which is generally a voice away they have an outline.
▶ 0:50:27Sen. Murray: We need the secretary in front of us.
▶ 0:50:28Chair Cassidy: We have requested the secretary to come before us.
▶ 0:50:34Sen. Murray: ? And the answer is?
▶ 0:50:37Chair Cassidy: It is in process.
▶ 0:50:41Sen. Tuberville: There is no secret that foreign adversaries are involved in a higher education system where they are smuggling millions of dollars and it is everywhere in the country in the last years we have closed down just in my stay alone several confucius institutes. They don't deserve to be anywhere in our country. The more I learned about these numbers, he led me to introduce the student visa integrity act.
▶ 0:51:12Sen. Tuberville: I introduced it last summer after all of these anti-american protests. It gives the opportunity to get a degree back to americans who love this country and not students who are adversarial from some of these other countries. You mentioned confucius institutes. Now that we have closed across this country, how could we tell that they are gone for sure?
▶ 0:51:40Sen. Tuberville: How can we tell that the affiliated professors are not still around?
▶ 0:51:46Dr. Wood: It won't be easy. You will have to rely on the truthfulness of college presidents, who are known to put a barricade on these matters. I think auditing the institutions is probably the only sure way of finding out whether chinese funding continues to flow to these influence operations.
▶ 0:52:12Sen. Tuberville: Do you think these professors are still hanging around?
▶ 0:52:15Dr. Wood: The chinese communist party rotates the professors in and out. It's not that the same people will be there. In some cases they are.
▶ 0:52:30Sen. Tuberville: I'm glad you recognize the nation's higher education system is one of our biggest assets. Our economy and workforce is only as good as our education system.
▶ 0:52:43Sen. Tuberville: I hear from students across our state all the time about barriers that they face whether it's getting into a class because we have too many foreign students or the language barrier , which is absolutely ridiculous when the professors can't even speak our language. We are trying to teach american kids. That is ridiculous.
▶ 0:53:08Sen. Tuberville: Over time if students with foreign visas outnumber american students, what does that mean for our workforce pipeline in the future?
▶ 0:53:19Mr. Singleton: It's a concerning trend that we have seen. Not only are there a large number of students at these universities, in some cases the U.S. government itself pays chinese postdoctoral students to do research at our universities. Some of those students have been determined to be affiliated with entities in china that are affiliated with chinese military industrial complex.
▶ 0:53:50Mr. Singleton: Both democrats and republicans understand the need to build our base, we need to be investing in ourselves and preparing for controlling the drivers of the 21st century revolution which are primarily technology related. We need to find the appropriate technology. It shouldn't be going to chinese researchers affiliated with entities to make bombs.
▶ 0:54:15Mr. Singleton: That seems like a common sense approach and perhaps wide legislation that could be introduced to acknowledge that challenge.
▶ 0:54:24Sen. Tuberville: How dangerous is it to our national security to share research and technology with the chinese communist party?
▶ 0:54:31Mr. Daly: The evidence is the most problematic group of chinese scholars on american campuses is not the undergraduate or graduate students, it's the postdoctoral fellows and researchers. We have to be careful not to tar them all with the same brush. There is definitely a problem. Many of these people are among the finest minds in their discipline.
▶ 0:55:01Mr. Daly: That is 85%-90 5% of students stay in the united states after graduating. That is going down a little bit. We could talk about that as well. There has been a little bit of a reverse. Most seek to stay in the united states. They have demonstrated repeatedly the people who stay here and become american citizens and dedicate their talents to us are among the top scholars in their field.
▶ 0:55:30Mr. Daly: We need to be very careful to keep that channel open. Since 1901, 30 4% of all U.S. crisis have been -- we need this talent. We must flush our domestic talent but the record of these people here has been superb. They dedicate themselves to science and our research enterprise. Vigilance, staying on top of it.
▶ 0:56:02Mr. Daly: We've got some of the biggest talent pools in the world currently outside of borders. We remain open to that despite the real threats.
▶ 0:56:15Sen. Tuberville: Do you agree that should be a fluent in english?
▶ 0:56:17Mr. Daly: They should have an english language competence especially if they are teaching. I have been in some of those classrooms you are talking about. If they are going to be teaching they should be fluent in english.
▶ 0:56:32Sen. Kim: I just want to pick up where he left off talking about the importance of innovation as well as drawing in talent. Mr. daly said in his testimony to achieve innovation we must continue to attract top foreign talent to are academically free and open institutions. Do you agree?
▶ 0:56:56Dr. Wood: Yes, I agree we do need to continue to attract top foreign talent whether that top foreign talent could come from countries that are locked into an adversarial relation with the united states seems to me to be an open question and worth further examination.
▶ 0:57:21Sen. Kim: I wanted to ask you given the concerns you raised, widespread concerns, do you think we should as a country go as far as to consider fully cutting off academic or research ties with chinese institutions and researchers?
▶ 0:57:36Dr. Wood: Yes, I think we should consider it.
▶ 0:57:40Sen. Kim: Do you agree with that statement?
▶ 0:57:42Mr. Singleton: Not all chinese universities directly support chinese military strategy. Just several dozen out of several thousand.
▶ 0:57:52Senator Kim: You are zooming in on some of the national security threats. Every person on this committee would have concerns about national security threats. What is before us is a proposal that is about every single subject matter. This level of oversight over any such matter.
▶ 0:58:17Mr. Singleton: I don't think you have to throw the baby out with the bathwater. I think much more stringent restrictions need to be enacted.
▶ 0:58:27Sen. Kim: The point you raised is there is a lack of conviction , any legal convictions about espionage, could you say that one more time?
▶ 0:58:36Dr. Wood: Clearly we have an issue on campus --
▶ 0:58:41Mr. Daly: We haven't yet had a conviction for espionage by persons on campuses acting on behalf of china. We have people who are reported working for chinese talent programs, double dipping. Violating existing rules of their home american university. There have been issues of this kind.
▶ 0:59:04Mr. Daly: We moved rather suddenly and correctly in my view from the attitude of engagement towards china to realizing we are in a broad competition. Universities have scholars who are here and acting under the engagement paradigm had the ground move under them. It took some time to adjust. They did so with the help of many people on this committee. Now we are in a different place.
▶ 0:59:32Sen. Kim: I think that vigilance is important. We know there are problems that need to be addressed. How far do we go? I do have concerns about what you said that we should even consider going as far as fully cut off research and academic relations with different countries, especially competitors and adversaries. We have the attention we want here of saying this is focusing on this way. We have to take into account the broader picture.
▶ 1:00:04Sen. Kim: For instance, I wanted to ask you, did you support the china initiative effort by the department of justice to that investigative researchers here in the united states?
▶ 1:00:15Dr. Wood: Yes I do.
▶ 1:00:18Sen. Kim: I want to raise my deep concern about that. This is an issue that I think we have to be considering as we are looking at this legislation. I understand your intention and how focused it is. First of all, this is a slightly different example but it has a similar type of lien. I work at the state department. I had's top-secret security clearance.
▶ 1:00:47Sen. Kim: I was banned on issues related to korea because I was korean american. That was deeply offensive to me as somebody who serves this country. The suspicion because of my ethnicity.
▶ 1:01:02Sen. Kim: That is something we are seeing through -- we saw firsthand through the china initiative and other efforts that are this presumption of concern upon people of asian descent, other countries that we are raising suspicion about. I just wanted to raise that because the asian-american community has raised significant concerns about this. The second is the deep chilling effect these efforts could have on our foreign students coming in.
▶ 1:01:33Sen. Kim: My father came to the united states as a foreign student. With the cuts to visas right now and shutting off of interviews I don't think my dad would've been able to get a visa right now to come and study in the united states. That is having a deep impact on college and universities who are dependent on foreign students coming in and providing funding to schools.
▶ 1:01:57Sen. Kim: I just want us to be knowledgeable about these broader affects that could cascade and very much affect not just the health of our universities and research partnerships but also our communities here in the signal it sends to the diversity of different communities of america. With that, I will yield back.
▶ 1:02:23Sen. Coons: --
▶ 1:02:28Sen. Husted: There are no convictions of university persons for conducting espionage on american campuses. I just did a simple search on my aim looked at multiple other sources to back them up. Chinese student pleads guilty for the U.S. espionage act for using a journal to take photos of military bases.
▶ 1:02:56Sen. Husted: I'm not suggesting it is a rampant problem but it does exist. I just encourage you to spend the time that I just did to look and you will see it is not just there, it is illinois state, ohio state, columbia. Other places have had issues. To say that it doesn't exist is also not accurate. I want to just dig in here a little bit on the mutual benefit side.
▶ 1:03:28Sen. Husted: America is a place where we want to have the best talent in the world. We want to welcome it. That is fantastic. I did a little research on the number of students that come to america to study versus the number of american students that go to china to study.
▶ 1:03:45Sen. Husted: The best date I can find is presently in the 24-20 five academic year there are 265,000 chinese students studying in america and less than 10,000 american students studying in china. I get there is a population different and that could contribute to the numbers, that doesn't seem like there's much mutual benefit. I saw you acknowledge that. I will ask you that question.
▶ 1:04:18Sen. Husted: Is this really benefiting america when you have this desperate difference?
▶ 1:04:24Mr. Daly: It's benefiting america in the low number of americans that go to china and in most of the chinese students who come to the united states. It is nothing like reciprocal. You are right. Chinese students come to america because they know we have the best higher education system in the world and they want to get that education.
▶ 1:04:47Mr. Daly: Most of the americans are going to china for language study or short-term cultural tourism. They are not seeking degrees from chinese universities.
▶ 1:05:01Sen. Husted: I want to give the others a chance to address this.
▶ 1:05:07Mr. Singleton: We could agree that not all chinese students are spies. They mandate that all chinese nationals cooperate whether they like it or not with chinese intelligence services which is increasingly a concern. One of the reasons we have seen a drop in U.S. students is it is increasingly unsafe. The U.S.
▶ 1:05:32Mr. Singleton: Government has outlined the concerns that physicals kick -- security concerns to U.S. citizens studying in china and there is no amount of reciprocity between they tightly control which students could study at chinese universities. I think those are some of the things the chinese party does not want them going.
▶ 1:06:01Sen. Husted: This is a free covid numbers of the numbers are not the same. One university had more chinese nationalists studying than they did black students. Why? They pay full tuition. There's is a financial benefit. The money is driving the reason that many of these students are coming to campuses. It is not a benefit to the united states.
▶ 1:06:30Sen. Husted: It is why the confucius institutes existed. Thankfully we got rid of them. Isn't this really just about the money?
▶ 1:06:40Mr. Singleton: A lot of the students there tuition is paid for by the chinese party state. They are state directed initiatives. They have chinese students and researchers come to the united states to study. We don't have any controls or due diligence on these researchers today.
▶ 1:07:03Sen. Husted: They see the majors. They are leaving with engineering, technology. They are going back and helping the chinese government as they are required to, to compete against america. I'm trying to figure out how this is benefiting america. I get we want to have people here from other countries that come to america.
▶ 1:07:29Sen. Husted: It doesn't seem like the china relationship is all that beneficial.
▶ 1:07:38Mr. Daly: Those --
▶ 1:07:40Mr. Singleton: Those requirements is that they go back to china and work on research there. There is a cause and effect.
▶ 1:07:53Chair Cassidy: By the way I'm watching body language and I see agreement among the three of you when something is said, occasional disagreement.
▶ 1:08:06Sen. Kaine: Thanks to the panel and share for holding this important hearing. When I was born in 1958 one out of 100 virginians had been born in another country. Today one out of eight virginians was born in another country and we are top quarter per capita income. Last time I checked only one other state had moved in that time from bottom quarter to top quarter and it was north dakota. They discovered oil.
▶ 1:08:38Sen. Kaine: We didn't discover anything except if you try to attract talent, talent will grow and the institutions and companies that want to be around talent will come. This is a discussion, there's a lot of agreement about trying to find that balance. How do we not shut off our traditional role as this talent magnet by having policies toward international students or researchers that are too punitive.
▶ 1:09:07Sen. Kaine: I'm aware we could be striking the balance the wrong way. International students contributed about $44 billion to the american economy. It is not just about the money. The money paid by foreign students gives tuition lower for in-state students. It is not just a benefit to them , how do you find the balance?
▶ 1:09:40Sen. Kaine: This administration has canceled billions of dollars in federal research making them vulnerable to being recruited by universities in other countries. Not necessarily china but canada, the u.k., we are losing researchers. Last spring the administration shocked international students through sudden visa revocations.
▶ 1:10:05Sen. Kaine: As a result we are seeing a sharp decline in foreign students enrolling in american universities. The difference between fall 2024 and 2025, there was a 17% drop in enrollment. Many of my universities in virginia see this sharp decline in graduate programs as well. It does affect their finances. It affects their ability to hold tuition low.
▶ 1:10:38Sen. Kaine: I really worry about the long-term consequences of the united states seeming more and more hostile. There is an economic reality you mentioned the nobel winners and ceos that create great economic opportunities. There's also a bit of a diplomatic reality. The trading programs we do, they go back to their country. In 10 years they are a minister of defense.
▶ 1:11:09Sen. Kaine: In 20 years they might be president. They have a positive experience from the training they have gotten. How do we find -- this is really a question to all of you. How do we find the balance of protecting security the way you want to. How do they maintain the position of the united states as the magnet for the most talented people in the world.
▶ 1:11:38Sen. Kaine: That is the way our nation stays young by attracting talented people. How do we do that?
▶ 1:11:46Mr. Daly: We do it with hearings and discussions like this. Bringing academic issue experts with the agencies to discuss these issues. We have to remain very vigilant. There is no trace about this. While we want our science and technology, our military to be number one in the world. The knowledge generation system is global. There's nothing we could do about that.
▶ 1:12:17Mr. Daly: We have to engage in other countries including china which is a great deal and also increasingly innovative. We have to be realistic about that. In 2016 the nature index, the top 10 institutions, nine were american, one was chinese. Eight of the world's top 10 by review measure, eight were chinese and two were american.
▶ 1:12:49Mr. Daly: It's a global enterprise. We have to bring people in from all over the world. That is a vulnerability. The answer is working closely like this, we have a lot more to offer than china. There will be vulnerabilities and failures. We could prevail on this.
▶ 1:13:08Sen. Kaine: I'm just assuming you assume this is a balance issue? We don't want to see that our position as the global talent magnet. We have to do it in ways that continue to make the most talented people in the world want to come to the united states and hopefully expand our opportunities here for american citizens. Is that fair?
▶ 1:13:32Dr. Wood: The largest percentage of students studying in the united states come from india. Nobody to my knowledge has raised questions that indian students coming to the united states pose a security risk. There are many other nations in the world who sent their students to study in the united states. This is not a matter of checking people off by ethnicity. That is a civil rights violation.
▶ 1:14:01Dr. Wood: We are concerned about people themselves who might be perfectly innocent that come from a nation that puts pressure on families and threatens them with death if they do not cooperate with state interests. That is a situation we cannot tolerate as a nation and our security concerns here in this particular instance have to override our concerns for intellectual this -- with a high standing of chinese
▶ 1:14:32Dr. Wood: Universities, a lot of that comes out of paper mills. They are generated papers by the tens of thousands. The intellectual peculiarity of the chinese publications exist solely through the purpose of getting them the purpose of getting them elevated in international rankings. I will stop there.
▶ 1:14:49Sen. Kaine: I will yield back. Thank you. >> Mr. singleton, I was in the hallway a minute ago, and this happens from time to time. The really wacky left-wing radical group code pink loves to chase us around the hallway. I find it humorous when they do. I don't even know what they stand for.
▶ 1:15:14Sen. Kaine: From the shouting and the back and forth with them, they apparently hate israel, they love abortion, I don't think they love america either. What are their ties to the chinese communist party?
▶ 1:15:28Mr. Singleton: It's an area outside of my expertise but there are some known document ties between code pink and chinese communist party affiliated entities and institutions. Not an area of my specific expertise and I have other colleagues at the foundation who track it closely, but that flow of money and the disruptive effects it has here are quite alarming. Ultimately, probably worthy of a lot more interest, scrutiny from congress.
▶ 1:15:59Mr. Singleton: >> what do they do on college campuses? Apparently they don't have jobs, they hang out in the halls of capitol building's and chase congress members and senators around. They don't like to have conversations either. They just like to be disruptive. What is their interest on college campuses?
▶ 1:16:17Mr. Singleton: I'm a college professor and I have not encountered them, but after this testimony, maybe I will. It seems as though many of their tactics we were those of the former confucius institutes and chinese students and scholars, associations, chinese government funded and directed entities at U.S. college campuses. Some of that includes monitoring students and stifling dissent.
▶ 1:16:43Mr. Singleton: For example, if there's going to be a public speaker on campus that want to talk about human rights in china, they will organize protest to be disruptive. Ultimately undermines academic integrity. On the chinese students and scholars front, congress has options. They should be subject to registration, we should be strongly thinking about whether U.S. universities that host these associations should be receiving certain types of funding.
▶ 1:17:10Mr. Singleton: A lot more work needs to be done on cssa's that have not been done.
▶ 1:17:15Sen. Banks: Under section 117 of the higher education act come universities only have to disclose for donations that exceed, or contracts and gifts that exceed a quarter million dollars, $250,000. Do you think that threshold is still appropriate today?
▶ 1:17:32Mr. Singleton: Absolutely not. Transparency strengthens trust. The deterrence act doesn't do anything about restricting the academic collaboration, it's only about a clear and consistent financial disclosure down to the dollar. I remember going to the university of florida, I had an amazing experience in education there. Two months after I graduated, I received a bill because I had a gatorade on my last day and I owed two dollars at the cafeteria.
▶ 1:18:03Mr. Singleton: Every dollar at multibillion-dollar institutions is tracked. These checks were cashed, the information exists somewhere. Why don't we have a broad, beyond china, every check that comes in, have it be available? It is not hard because every university uses sophisticated accounting software that accounts for this. The transparency removes the ambiguity and it strengthens trust for universities.
▶ 1:18:32Sen. Banks: So report all of it. It would be easy to do that.
▶ 1:18:36Mr. Singleton: All the funders, intermediaries that peter rightly pointed out, put it all out there. It is agnostic against country.
▶ 1:18:45Sen. Banks: It used to be hard to work with the department of education where these reports would be submitted, used to be hard to get them. Is it easier to find reports of foreign gifts online? Is it totally transparent, what more can we do to fix that?
▶ 1:19:01Mr. Singleton: It used to be externally difficult. During the biden administration, they didn't report any of the donor data for four years, so it was sort of a black hole for four years. The current department of education is investing heavily in this portal, as schools contribute information, we should have a better sense of the exact donor names, where the money is coming from. We also have to go farther and say what is the money for?
▶ 1:19:31Mr. Singleton: When you cut a big check or sign a research partnership, there is paper, it exists. It wouldn't be difficult for that to be publicly available, and it should be.
▶ 1:19:39Sen. Banks: I used to be struck -- maybe this has changed or improved -- but at least a few years ago, the department of education had any security clearances. Secretary, undersecretary, they should all have security clearances so they are read in on why this matters but we that has been improved.
▶ 1:20:02Mr. Singleton: This system is entirely fragmented. Because of stovepipe outdated clearance processes, this information is not shared. It is not even shared with universities. They may not even know they are partnering with entities that support for example china's nuclear weapons program, which exists. Some states, including florida, have taken strong steps in this regard, but a lot more needs to be done.
▶ 1:20:31Chair Cassidy: Senator hickenlooper.
▶ 1:20:36Sen. Hickenlooper: Thank you, Mr. chair. Thank all of you for being here and engaging in this. You are probably not aware of this but I am, recovering scientist. I have a masters in environmental science, volcanic rocks in south-central montana. Like many young people, I found it irresistible to be able to go out and study and learn, be in some of those beautiful landscapes on earth.
▶ 1:21:08Sen. Hickenlooper: But then I grew to love the laboratories as well and the pursuits. Not sure how I ended up in the senate. A long trajectory that I will not bore you with. I think I'm the last scientist, if you divide that as someone who has had their research peer-reviewed and published in journals, I am the last senator to actually be a scientist. >> excuse me.
▶ 1:21:35Sen. Hickenlooper: [laughter] with the exception of the chair. He is a doctor, so that is not the same. I know that we share the bipartisan goal of research and security, broadening our stem pipeline with the brightest minds. That includes students from all backgrounds. So much of research is published and put out there and shared on an international level.
▶ 1:22:03Sen. Hickenlooper: These different backgrounds, as you have all said in different ways, are not bound by international borders. But according to the national science's latest report, over half of our doctorates in science, math, engineering are foreign-born. It is part of that that makes it so concerning.
▶ 1:22:26Sen. Hickenlooper: There was a recent report that came out, nist, national institute of science technology standards and industry, that they were considering expelling 500 researchers because they were non-us citizens. What was so surprising, this was not questions of russians or chinese, but they included canadians in this.
▶ 1:22:54Sen. Hickenlooper: I know we've had some complex relations with canada recently, but I think our scientific communities are still relatively aligned. Mr. daly, I want to ask, how do you think targeted attacks like these on international researchers working in our universities and federal labs is going to affect enrollment in stem fields?
▶ 1:23:14Mr. Daly: The case is a particular concern, national institute of standards and technologies. A major part of our technology competition with china, one of the major reasons we worry about companies is not just that they are selling 5g systems internationally which is a huge concern, but because they are able to deliver these systems to countries in the global south quickly, cheaply, and are good enough, they also lead in
▶ 1:23:46Mr. Daly: Setting global telecom standards which shape the subsequent competition. Nist is our bulwark of defense against that. We have been previous leaders and global standards for that reason. The standards peace, not just the new gizmos, as important as they are. It's the global standards that set markets, what designers will designed to. I'm particularly worried about that. Nist bill the cyber security framework, a high risk framework. All of this is under threat because of that.
▶ 1:24:17Sen. Hickenlooper: Mr. singleton, your perception on that?
▶ 1:24:21Mr. Singleton: China is a special case. I think Dr. would hit the nail on the head here when we are talking about separating china and the risk posed by chinese military civil fusion into a separate category of risk. When we talk about global standards, we are actually talking about two countries, the united states standard and the chinese standard. A special category of global applicability across technologies.
▶ 1:24:51Mr. Singleton: We want to be the leaders there and we want to do that with partners and friends. But the reason that we focus so much on china is because they are the very clear foil to our desire to have an open and free and particularly free market-based approach to this that doesn't strengthen its authoritarian regimes. That is why china is a special case here. I slowly don't think we should be expelling all foreign students. I very strongly believe that not all chinese students are spies.
▶ 1:25:21Mr. Singleton: I think that is an inherently flawed approach.
▶ 1:25:22Sen. Hickenlooper: Dr. wood, anything to add?
▶ 1:25:25Dr. Wood: Nothing to add to that.
▶ 1:25:27Sen. Hickenlooper: I am out of time. I do think nist has unique power . We don't often recognize that convening power to establish what are the global standards, has ramifications far beyond what most people consider. I you guys bringing that up. As one of two scientists left in the united states senate, I yield the floor back to the chair, to the other scientist.
▶ 1:25:56Sen. Hickenlooper: I am yielding back to the other scientist in the united states senate.
▶ 1:25:58Chair Cassidy: Unfortunately, I yielding to a florida gator will be asking all the questions. >> so excited that you got on board with inviting a genius from the university of florida. I have made it my mission as one of the newest senators to be, to get the most go gators on the record at hearings. I think I'm up to close to 10 now. Thank you and welcome. Thank you, Mr.
▶ 1:26:25Chair Cassidy: Chairman, for holding this hearing to examine a really concerning truth that many of our universities have been infiltrated by foreign interests. The hearing we are specifically talking about malign foreign influence on our universities, I think it's incredibly important.
▶ 1:26:44Chair Cassidy: I have heard it come up a lot, people are familiar with the confucius institute embedded in universities really under our noses before people started waking up and figuring out what was going on, that they were a vehicle for ccp influence and propaganda operations in the united states. As Mr. singleton said, I'm so proud of my state. We lead in many ways, this is one of them. When I was attorney general in florida, we outlawed these institutes from our state.
▶ 1:27:14Chair Cassidy: Many other states followed suit. I'm hoping the few that are remaining wake up and really dig in to see what is going on. We also prohibited our universities from taking any kind of money or research personnel from countries of concern like china, iran, at the time, venezuela. So important to stay on top of these things. One of the things our state does well is we are proactive in making sure we are rooting out this kind of influence.
▶ 1:27:47Chair Cassidy: Besides organizations like the confucius institute, foreign government influence in our universities is gaining traction through these large, obscene gifts or grants paving statements from the department of education show during the last administration, there was almost this obfuscation or push to prohibit disclosure, not go after when universities didn't disclose the information to the public I think it's concern because public trust in our institutions has really been declining since the china born
▶ 1:28:19Chair Cassidy: Covid pandemic. The last time anything want for our universities to become pawns of our foreign adversaries. I also agree with the notion that students who want to come and learn, obviously, that has historically been -- we have offered that opportunity.
▶ 1:28:44Chair Cassidy: We shouldn't just cut that off without really examining specifically if there is malign influence in our university. Dr. wood, you talked a lot about the extraordinary funding of our top research institutions where they take money from the ccp specifically. You said you seal he receives 129 million dollars, harvard receives $630 million.
▶ 1:29:13Chair Cassidy: By the way, this is illegal in the state of florida. No serious person can see those numbers and not understand that these universities can be influenced, specifically understanding, like in america, chinese, they understand, fully enmeshed in their universities into the people's liberation army.
▶ 1:29:40Chair Cassidy: I think there are highly concerns that some of those coming over here that are being embedded in research, that information gets spirited away to ccp agents directly into the chinese military industrial complex. Mr. singleton, you said that the ccp is in fact paying for students to come over and be embedded in our universities. I want to go back to you come Mr. wood.
▶ 1:30:06Chair Cassidy: Did you know -- we pushed back on some of the confucius institutes, but did you know in china they passed two laws that required all nationals, not just students, but all nationals to cooperate with the ccp and offer information on demand?
▶ 1:30:24Dr. Wood: Yes, I'm aware.
▶ 1:30:27Sen. Moody: You were singling out other nations, we should prohibit those visas, but do you think it's a problem when a foreign adversary, especially one that has been orchestrating ways to infiltrate, and I could list for you chinese student, chinese student in america that has been caught stealing information, flying drones over our military bases over and over again, knowing the laws are on the books in china that requires them to report back, and we've
▶ 1:30:58Sen. Moody: Even had disclosures where we are pushing them to provide information and report back and they have. Does that concern you that we are still allowing this without further legislation preventing that?
▶ 1:31:10Dr. Wood: It absolutely does. I think you framed this correctly biasing the issue is public trust. Americans at large understand that china is stealing our lunch. Only people who don't seem to understand that are the college presidents and trustees who see the money coming in and shrug and say, ok, that's good for us.
▶ 1:31:33Dr. Wood: I'm concerned, yes, that we are in a situation where the chinese students are subject to state pressure to cooperate with their government, even if they don't want to, they will.
▶ 1:31:49Dr. Wood: They are also being regimented by the chinese students and scholars association, remnants of the confucius institutes, a whole galaxy of other chinese organized efforts to make sure the chinese influence in america, not just on campuses but in elections, everywhere else where they can get a reach, is proceeding pretty much unhindered.
▶ 1:32:11Sen. Moody: Mr. singleton said some of this information, we could be actually helping china develop their nuclear program. That should put fear in every single one of us on this dais. I have proposed a stop ccp thesis act as long as these laws are outstanding, requiring cooperation by the students that they said and pay for to come here. But if we don't start examining who we are inviting into this country, we are promoting our own demise ultimately.
▶ 1:32:43Sen. Moody: Thank you for being here. I will turn it over at this time to senator alsobrooks.
▶ 1:32:49Sen. Alsobrooks: Thank you for our witnesses were being here today. While I agree it's important to stamp out dangerous sources of foreign influence in our higher education system, I think it's also important that we address how cuts to research funding can increase foreign influence on the global stage and undermine U.S. competitiveness. The nih drives economic growth, fosters biotechnology, and delivers life-saving treatment.
▶ 1:33:18Sen. Alsobrooks: Yet, last year, president trump and secretary kennedy's reckless research cuts directly cost our states's preeminent higher institutions to receive 40% fewer awards, representing a decline of around half of its research funding. Our state public institutions are predicted to lose 70% are predicted to lose 70 to 150 million dollars annually because of this administration.
▶ 1:33:46Sen. Alsobrooks: If you include public and private institutions, maryland is down 82% in the number of awards, 85 percent in the value of awards over the past year. Mr. daly, my first question is for you. You expressed you believe we are now in a new cold war with china. I would like to know, how do cuts to research at our institutions impact our ability to compete with china and other adversaries in this new cold war?
▶ 1:34:11Mr. Daly: It is clearly extreme a negative. We've been very focused on the fact that china has a choke hold on us in critical minerals. They also have a chokehold and medical precursors. No china, no ibuprofen for americans. They are at wildly acknowledging the expert community, although we have not paid attention in congress, to be the leaders in biopharmaceutical research.
▶ 1:34:36Mr. Daly: It's expected that most of the major therapies, most of the new medicines will be coming out of china because we are no lower keeping pace, under resourcing would have been the world's strongest medical and discovery institutions. It is a major concern and also constitutes another chokehold. Possibly out. What if they come up with a therapy that can save american lives?
▶ 1:35:04Mr. Daly: They are increasingly innovative and we are not yet fallen behind but the balance is shifting.
▶ 1:35:09Sen. Alsobrooks: We have also seen the politicization of research dollars by this administration. I wonder how you believe politicizing research dollars emboldens our rivals?
▶ 1:35:25Mr. Daly: The universities are still the engine of our innovation system. They produce new knowledge of their own and most of the major ceos and scientists who work as entrepreneurs and have new discoveries are products of our educational institutions. About 90% of american r&d doesn't happen on campuses, it happens in national laboratories, private corporations. Ip theft, that was just from universities?
▶ 1:35:57Mr. Daly: Most of it probably not from universities. We need to talk about the role of corporations here, too. Our goal is to compete with china. Confucius institutes are almost all gone. They were language teaching institutes. China will have as many nuclear warheads as we do by 2035. They are developing vehicles that we cannot stop. Our concern needs to shift to our real national strength that matter in competition with china.
▶ 1:36:26Mr. Daly: Universities are important, vigilance is necessary, but I'm afraid there is a lot with proportionality.
▶ 1:36:30Sen. Alsobrooks: Also regarding talent, when it comes to attracting the best and brightest vines in the search for cures and new technologies, cuts to nih and nsf, research ultimately reduces slots for trained researchers and weakens public and private institutions' capacity to train the next generation of researchers.
▶ 1:36:52Sen. Alsobrooks: One poll found more than 45 percent of responding scientists said they were considering leaving the country following the disruption to science prompted by the trump administration. How does catalyzing a talent brain drain challenge our ability to attract leading mines away from our adversaries and arrivals, and how is china working to aggressively recruit top scientists, including those of chinese descent leaving the united states?
▶ 1:37:20Mr. Daly: Everybody today has advocated for balance, recognizing the real vulnerabilities and the need to attract talent. It has to be said that the people leaving, those numbers are growing, they don't feel safe or welcome here. China has also tripled its number of universities and is giving more money to r&d. They go back and get brand-new laboratories.
▶ 1:37:44Mr. Daly: We need to think about china not only as a threat to be defended against, but we have to go on offense and provide research dollars and facilities to match those with china, both to develop our own native talent and to attract the best talent.
▶ 1:37:58Sen. Alsobrooks: Thank you I yield. >> senator markey.
▶ 1:38:06Sen. Markey: Thank you. No one here wants corruption in higher education. No one wants our colleges and universities to be beholden to other countries. But it shouldn't come as a surprise to anyone that the truck administration is weaponizing good faith compliance with section 117, reporting to continue its war on higher education.
▶ 1:38:34Sen. Markey: This administration's focus on foreign influence in education is just another distraction from the corrupt wheeling and dealing by our fraudster in chief in the oval office. If we want to talk about milan foreign influence, we need to look no further than 1600 pennsylvania avenue.
▶ 1:38:58Sen. Markey: Right before his second inauguration, trump's crypto company excepted half $1 billion from the united arab emirates. Six months later, in may 2025, another uae-backed firm financed a deal with $2 billion of trump's cryptocurrency.
▶ 1:39:23Sen. Markey: Just a few weeks later, trump greenlighted the uae's purchase of 500,000 ai chips. Just a coincidence, right? It doesn't stop there. Last may, trump excepted a $400 million bowling luxury liner from qatar to use as air force one, and deal approved by attorney general pam bondi. A former lobbyist for the qatari's.
▶ 1:39:54Sen. Markey: Is it just a coincidence that three days later qatar was the first foreign entity allowed to purchase new american counter drone systems? I don't think so. Don't worry. The saudi's are in on it, too. Jared kushner, trump's son in law, excepted a $2 billion saudi investment in his private equity firm.
▶ 1:40:21Sen. Markey: The trump administration simultaneously continues to cozy up to the saudis, including advancing a plan to give nuclear weapon want to be saudi arabia nuclear technology. Dangerous. We can also talk about china. Last week, chinese crypto billionaire justin sun, who bought more than $90 million in trump's crypto had his sec fraud case dropped.
▶ 1:40:52Sen. Markey: If we want to promote "transparency and trust" let's start with them maligned foreign influence of this white house. Poor jimmy carter. He had to give up his peanut farm. Now, the american people are getting peanuts from this administration, while gas prices surge, health care costs are spiking, and we are sucked into another war in the middle east.
▶ 1:41:21Sen. Markey: I will be the first to work with republicans on this committee if there is deep-seated maligned foreign influence that is unaddressed in our colleges and universities. But our colleges and universities are our greatest geopolitical asset. Over a million international students study every year at american institutions. We are seeing china and europe now poach scientists and researchers because of this administration's foolish attacks on higher education.
▶ 1:41:52Sen. Markey: That is our greatest asset. Last month, the boston globe wrote with federal support for scientific research now unpredictable in the united states, a brain drain to china may be possible in the coming years. Mr. daly, is an administration that accepts billions in investments in trump crypto companies from foreign governments to make sweetheart deals, grants research funding, is that leading to a brain drain?
▶ 1:42:24Sen. Markey: Is that a national security risk for our country long-term?
▶ 1:42:26Mr. Daly: We see some evidence of a brain drain. Thank you for the question. I will continue to work with universities and all of you in the security agencies to get the balance on china right. That is the focus of my work. But I do worry about a reverse brain drain.
▶ 1:42:43Sen. Markey: If there are bad actors, I want to work on that as well, seeking undue influence on our colleges and universities, we should rooted out. But dismantling the department of education, naming the head of the world wrestling federation to be the head of education, that is not going to help. Neither will cutting research grants, or pushing scientists overseas. If we want to put america first, let's start by cleaning out the corruption in this white house. Thank you.
▶ 1:43:16Sen. Cassidy: Thank you, senator markey. My advantages I get to listen to everybody, so let me just start there. The doctor would start out by saying that some of the money coming in may be rebranded. We don't know that but you have to be careful about that. The department of education says as much as a third of foreign contributions are not reported.
▶ 1:43:49Sen. Cassidy: There is stretching there. Mr. daly, you suggest the previous legislation, the last 10 years have solved the problem. Let me start with you. If one third of the money coming in is not reported, which granted could have been gifts less than $250,000, but probably not. And of Dr.
▶ 1:44:15Sen. Cassidy: Wood is correct that half $1 billion is coming through guernsey, and I'll notorious for money laundering, so it's easy to imagine that dollars are put there and funneled here. This hearing is about transparency. It's about transparency, not about where the student originates from. It's about transparency. I respect all three of you, you have done a great job. Do you agree that as much as one third of the donations may not be transparent when reported?
▶ 1:44:48Sen. Cassidy: Assuming that Dr. wood is correct that half a billion is coming from guernsey, which is, as we said, a conduit for people who don't want their identities known, thoughts about that? >> I cannot confirm any of those statistics. Having visited a great number of universities to discuss this, I would be surprised if a third currently, currently is unreported. All I see on universities is vigilance.
▶ 1:45:18Sen. Cassidy: Tremendous expense and a disposition no. This has shifted. A disposition now to assume that at least four products coming from china and related to stem, the answer may well be no.
▶ 1:45:29Sen. Cassidy: The conversation has veered toward china but really the conversation was about a lot of things. The largest single donor is qatar. Qatar they pay for a pharmacy building at xavier university after katrina in louisiana. We cannot bring black or white here, we have to accept that there is no there is nuance. That is where I go back to transparency.
▶ 1:45:56Sen. Cassidy: It is not so much about china even though that is your expertise, kinda more about transparency.
▶ 1:46:03Mr. Daly: Craig is right that we can do a better job with 117. For all the reasons mentioned, it's a good idea to lower the reporting requirements from $250,000 to 50000 and some cases lower. But what is the use of this portal? These are cumulative numbers that do not paint an accurate or useful picture of what is happening now.
▶ 1:46:30Mr. Daly: It would not be at all difficult to lineup the portal that showed donations by year, broken down by country. Again, I would like to know whether that would show --
▶ 1:46:41Sen. Cassidy: I am told it is thereby difficult to ascertain.
▶ 1:46:45Mr. Daly: I could not find it. I got spreadsheet where everything was lumped together that seemed to give the impression that all foreign donations are maligned which is not true, that all donations from china come from the chinese communist party which is also not true. There are no distinctions made and there is really no time series. We need that to judge the scale of the threat and whether our work is actually effective or not.
▶ 1:47:12Sen. Cassidy: Mr. singleton, you are not in your head. You would agree?
▶ 1:47:17Mr. Singleton: The department of education has made it clear the portal will be continuously updated. I agree, they have to ingest decades of data from different spreadsheets and sources in an attempt to make sense of it..
▶ 1:47:31Sen. Cassidy: More to the point, just because it is coming from mainland china or qatar or england or the united kingdom, in and of itself doesn't mean anything, rather the source of it, and the purpose of it.
▶ 1:47:45Mr. Singleton: You cannot manage risk and you cannot see. Transparency protects universities, policymakers, and students alike, which is why we don't know what we don't know here. The use of cutouts and intermediaries is well known, particularly in the case of china. We should understand what the money buys. It is beyond just the disclosure of what the check amount was, we should have a clear view of what the money buys. Currently that is not required by law.
▶ 1:48:16Sen. Cassidy: The transparency, the agreement between the two of you, report the money but also tell us what the money buys. To a medical school in doha, they will be providing educational opportunity for those who otherwise may not receive it.
▶ 1:48:33Mr. Singleton: Absolutely. Information is the ultimate goal here. Then we can effectively evaluate which ones are benign, make sense, advance U.S. national security.
▶ 1:48:44Sen. Cassidy: Dr. wood, that may be the way to build a bridge between witnesses, would you agree with that assessment?
▶ 1:48:51Dr. Wood: I'm not sure. This goes beyond knowing what the source and the purpose is. You need to figure out how it is actually applied. We all know money is fungible. Drop money on a college, some of it will go to a particular purpose, some of it will be siphoned off into overhead. That money will be used for other purposes. You really have to know where the money is going and what it is doing on campus.
▶ 1:49:20Dr. Wood: I think qatar, since we have talked about that, spends some of its money in very wholesome ways, but when it funds al jazeera and trains them at northwestern university, that is not quite so wholesome.
▶ 1:49:34Sen. Cassidy: Let me stop you there. Here is a bucket of dollars coming from x country. This is funding a way to go after critical minerals in a way that benefits the U.S. and this is going to al jazeera. I think what I heard from the first two, if that is clearly known. Your point is, some of it is going for overhead, some of it is fungible.
▶ 1:50:04Sen. Cassidy: But theoretically, if you know that we have $5 million, $2 million went for overhead, $3 million for this program, that would give you insight into that?
▶ 1:50:14Dr. Wood: It would give us the ability to make more prudential judgments as to whether it is worth having the money, given that al jazeera will get a portion of it. I think there's a lot more to this. We are in a situation where the foreign funding comes in a very mixed picture from some countries, qatar is an example of that. China is not. The money that we get from china is almost all used to some degree for mischievous purposes.
▶ 1:50:47Dr. Wood: Transparency is a broad term. It has to be driven down --
▶ 1:50:51Sen. Cassidy: I am thinking Mr. daly is saying that might be a chinese billionaire who decides to fund a chair of english at a university, and then his daughter gets accepted. That would be relatively benign, except for denying entrance, if there is a limited number of people to be accepted.
▶ 1:51:14Dr. Wood: I see a complication there. There is a chinese building there. He is the one that funds code pink. I see his minions on the subway in new york with their anti-semitic signs all the time.
▶ 1:51:30Dr. Wood: The chinese billionaire who is funding something at columbia university, so his progeny get favorable treatment, you might think that is one thing, chinese maligned influence is something else, but they are really not. If it is coming from china, it has an ulterior purpose.
▶ 1:51:49Sen. Cassidy: Let me stop you there. I'm the last one, I get as much time as I want. At some point, it needs to end. Mr. daly, you have heard Dr. wood's prescription. Your reaction?
▶ 1:52:05Mr. Daly: Interest is pretty vague to us. There is a problem. To respond to senator husted who is no longer here, I said we had not had a conviction for espionage on american campuses. The issue he raises is about the photographs near military bases.
▶ 1:52:23Sen. Cassidy: Md anderson, there was something there. I will point that out. In principle, that was the same thing.
▶ 1:52:33Mr. Daly: Obviously, there is chinese espionage. They will who were up anything they can get by any means possible, but we are talking today about influence and donations. Correct me if I'm wrong, I haven't heard any type of a specific donation to a specific illegal activity on campus.
▶ 1:52:52Sen. Cassidy: The confucius institutes were there to very much put a flavor in the interpretation of american relationships, taiwanese --
▶ 1:53:07Mr. Daly: I advised two presidents at american universities to get rid of their confucius institutes. That was a part of the final report on this. Yes, there was a problem with confucius institutes, but it wasn't an espionage problem. These were hotbeds of mediocre college language training.
▶ 1:53:28Mr. Daly: The problem was, once they had those, in my experience, many universities were hesitant because they felt they had this chinese institute, to take other action that china would not like. There was a second order a problem of thinking we had a chinese partner on campus. I think that's a big issue.
▶ 1:53:46Sen. Cassidy: I will direct this to you come Mr. singleton. Even though china seemed to be your direction, I was once told, if an ivy league school gets 500 middle dollars -- $500,000 from a middle east country, that goes to the faculty. Going back to october 7, where did the anti-semitic and anti-american rhetoric come from? You buy a lot of influence when you buy a lot of faculty members.
▶ 1:54:16Sen. Cassidy: Mr. singleton, any thoughts?
▶ 1:54:17Mr. Singleton: Not only do you buy faculty members, in many cases, the host government nation, china or qatar, is in charge of curriculum development. The qatar foundation international, they determine the curriculum.
▶ 1:54:33Sen. Cassidy: You are talking about an american institute of higher education, prestigious, who gets the dollars, but they would seed authorship of the curriculum to another?
▶ 1:54:50Mr. Singleton: If the same model employed in confucius institutes because the chinese communist party-controlled teacher selection, teacher training, and curricula. It is the same model. They can infect control what students are learning on campus through these models. We have to do a lot more to uncover the extent of these qatari networks and understand how their influencing higher education. We already have a president from the chinese communist party in confucius institutes.
▶ 1:55:20Sen. Cassidy: Let me finish with this. Transparency is key. Obviously, we have a conflict with iran right now. I am driving to new orleans from baton rouge, to take a flight here and I pass a store run by an iranian american. He has a billboard with on a ring and flag saying thank you, president trump.
▶ 1:55:48Sen. Cassidy: A lot of people come here from those other countries because they don't want those countries. They love their country but they have been squashed. We see the celebrations of the death of the ayatollah as an example of people from iran who were shaking under the yolk of a terrible leadership. I suspect that is true of every autocratic government in the world. People want freedom when they come here.
▶ 1:56:21Sen. Cassidy: Obviously, we cannot paint a broad brush. If somebody comes with a country that is at resume it with us, guilty of being an accomplice to that adversarial government. The question is is there transparency in that? Do we have transparency and the people that come here as research assistants, so we get those brain born elsewhere, and they come here and benefit us,? But they could freedom Dr. wood, I will start with you. That will be my last question.
▶ 1:56:50Dr. Wood: I am not quite sure I get the question.
▶ 1:56:54Sen. Cassidy: We are talking about transparency for those scientists and educators and business people that come from elsewhere, the eight china, qatar, iran, elsewhere, who are actually fleeing their government. They want our freedom. They become our great american citizens. Is there a way to adequately vet there?
▶ 1:57:19Dr. Wood: We need to be prudent in every case when we grant a visa to somebody, that we are not granting a visa to a re- immigrant from another country who is making use of our procedures to slipin. Generally speaking, most of people that want to come in here are coming for legitimate purposes, need to be treated with respect as they pursue their god-given freedoms. No objection to that whatsoever.
▶ 1:57:51Dr. Wood: But there is an element here of being wise stewards of our own freedom, not allowing it to be seized by those who want to undermine it. They are here, too. I think the trump administration is doing a reasonably good job of trying to vet the people already here under visas, that are using those visas to spread anti-semitic propaganda and anti-american activities or to engage in intellectual property theft.
▶ 1:58:19Sen. Cassidy: You agree with that?
▶ 1:58:22Mr. Singleton: Our goal should be to retain as much top talent as possible. It is xi jinping's worst nightmare, the idea that has taught researchers would stay in the united states and contribute here and embrace liberty and democracy. As a former U.S. tip, I will tell you, the adjudication of these is incredibly difficult. It is impossible within that 30 or 45-second interview to determine if this present represents a national security threat.
▶ 1:58:52Mr. Singleton: We have not built up the training for consular offices worldwide. Security databases they need to adjudicate these decisions. That is one of the core reasons why so many of these problematic researchers, particularly those associated with chinese talent programs, slip through the system. It is absolutely possible to enhance vetting. That case is very specific to china because it is a party state directed initiative to steal our intellectual capital and operate on our college campuses.
▶ 1:59:22Mr. Singleton: As we have all outlined, those are the centers of our innovation growth. >> we have done an increasingly good job on research integrity over the past 10 years. We can continue to do a better job by increasing transparency in the way you describe. But we also need to keep our eyes on the main issue, U.S.-china competition. I'm a lot more worried about the fact that china will have the same number of nuclear warheads as we have in 2035.
▶ 1:59:50Mr. Singleton: I am more worried about that than the fact that a confucius institute that was kicked off an american college campus may now be offering college language classes in a local elementary school. That is not where we need our focus when we think about U.S.-china innovation and competition.
▶ 2:00:04Sen. Cassidy: Thank you all. Any center wishing to ask additional questions, questions to the record are due 5:00 thursday, march 26. Thank you for being here. The committee stands adjourned.