▶ 0:27:37Chair Hoeven: The subcommittee will come to order. We are holding our first hearing on the subcommittee on water and power. I want to begin by saying senator wyden and I have worked together on the number of things related to energy and he may even comment on that. I will let him mention that.
▶ 0:28:07Chair Hoeven: Today we are talking about water and power. W■ater access is fundamental to quality-of-life or families, safe drinking water when they turn on the tap. Farmers and ranchers, the ability to grow crops and raise livestock, the ability to track businesses and grow. Western states face unique challenges and reliable access and delivery of water. I will be intrigued to see if my staff put in what we all know, that whiskey is for drinking and water is for fighting.
▶ 0:28:38Chair Hoeven: We will see if they got it in there just in case I wanted to reference it. It is an old saying but it does have real meaning in that water is so important to everyone across the country. Incredibly important issue and a challenging issue. These are challenges that include all regions of the country and rural population areas that are very wet and areas that have dropped.
▶ 0:29:08Chair Hoeven: In north dakota we understand these challenges very well. Our state has long worked manageable floods and drought, sometimes in the same year, which requires a close relationship with our federal partners, including the bureau of reclamation and critical supply projects in our state.
▶ 0:29:26Chair Hoeven: We will hear testimony from the bureau of reclamation and the federal energy regulatory commission on a number of bills including a priority for my home state to reauthorize the dakota water resources act, which I want to thank senator padilla for joining me on. Appreciate it very much. This bill provides much-needed authorizations to provide more reliable drought-resilient water supplies for north dakota and the five tribal nations located in our state.
▶ 0:29:53Chair Hoeven: Also, it will support the completion of two key regional water supply projects, the northwest area water supply project and the eastern north dakota alternate water supply project helping to serve communities in the red river valley of the north. North dakota has yet to fully realize the promise of over one million acres of irrigation as compensation for the loss of approximately 500 50,000 acres of prime farmland flooded by federal water projects under the flood control act of 1944.
▶ 0:30:26Chair Hoeven: Access to clean, reliable, portable water supplies is a quality-of-life issue and our legislation is consistent with historical, federal promise to the state and tribes upon construction of the gears and dam and lake --. He did get to the basin but not the 100 mile man-made lake, which competes with some of the other reservoirs to hold the most water of any reservoir in the united states.
▶ 0:30:57Chair Hoeven: Of course, that is incredibly important, not just to our state, but the states downstream all the way to the end of the missouri river, which joins the mississippi in st. Louis, or just south of there. I look forward to hearing from our witnesses this morning, and I would like to turn the microphone over to senator wyden for opening comments.
▶ 0:31:25Sen. Wyden: Thank you, Mr. chairman. It's good to be back working with you. We have worked together on a host of things. Transportation issues, energy issues, and I recall being invited to north dakota. I was glad to be able to come when I was chairman of this committee. It's a wonderful committee. I believe I was introduced to the walleye caucus, or something close to that.
▶ 0:31:54Sen. Wyden: I was told as I navigated all of these great lakes and whatnot I would have some terrific walleye, and that was, in fact, correct. If I can wrangle an invitation to come back, I will do it. Let the chairman is doing is particularly important to the we st right now. If I were to sum it up, western states are facing a devastating 1-2 punch.
▶ 0:32:25Sen. Wyden: Historic drought and record low snowpack. I have town hall meetings, and every one of my counties, 1100 of them, and I'm going to the rural part of the state shortly, and I know the dominant question will be those two topics and what the chairman has smartly agreed to look into. Which is the question of, how are we going to get strong federal leadership and smart policy when it comes to water management?
▶ 0:32:57Sen. Wyden: Western drought and the federal government seems to have taken a backseat on these issues and communities in the west are suffering. For example, one of the areas that we feel very strongly about is the mammoth river basin in southern oregon, an example of why strong leadership and good policy are so critical.
▶ 0:33:21Sen. Wyden: The federal government has a responsibility to safeguard water infrastructure, meet tribal obligations, and protect water access. In the klamath, decades of conflict have shown what it looks like when leadership falls short. The communities, tribes, and renters have paid a big price. The colorado river is another example of why strong federal leadership is so critical. Sustainable solutions require strong, federal engagement and consistent funding.
▶ 0:33:53Sen. Wyden: I was proud that last congress this committee passed a law that I wrote that is already delivering real results for communities along the klamath. It's important we step up and do more. For western communities, the combination of farmers and ranchers and tribes and families means you have to provide certainty to a whole host of important community concerns.
▶ 0:34:24Sen. Wyden: Those individuals need the reassurance knowing the people representing them are doing everything they can to protect this critical water resource. They can't go from year to year lurching about, trying to figure out where reservoir levels are going to be, are they going to a collapse, are agreements going to unravel? I want to briefly mention two pieces of legislation, Mr. chairman.
▶ 0:34:50Sen. Wyden: First, I have a bill that brings the private sector to measuring watershed results called the watershed results act. It takes the current, outdated approach to this question, really getting value for scarce dollars on its head. It is a pilot approach that pays for performance projects are going to benefit from.
▶ 0:35:14Sen. Wyden: If you're making real results on water supply reliability and watershed health, you go to the head of the program. Taxpayers deserve to know that money is producing real, on the ground results. Under the current system, huge sums of money head out the door without enough safeguards to ensure it is being put to good enough use. I don't want the record to show that david -- I want the record to show that david is nodding his head in agreement.
▶ 0:35:46Sen. Wyden: I want to tell seriously that I appreciate the fact that we have two dedicated civil servants, and I look forward to working with them on these issues. The concept of the legislation is simple. You want to improve your local waterways? Great. Demonstrate the best ways to do it before the taxpayer dollars go out. The other piece of legislation is a bill that I have for senator murkowski. When I was the chair of the committee she was the ranking republican. A pleasure to work with. We have teamed up on the d.o.t.
▶ 0:36:16Sen. Wyden: Water power technologies office. I will put into the record a longer description of it, but this really measures what we did with the clean energy tax credits that were really thought up in this committee and passed by the senate finance committee. They basically bring a technology neutral approach to the energy field. We sure need that in terms of waterpower technology.
▶ 0:36:40Sen. Wyden: Let's reward the private sector building on the other piece of legislation, because it is technologies we ought to be looking at. I want to give a special thank to the university of oregon program that allows them to test technologies generated from ocean waves. Just as we did with the clean energy tax credits, Mr. chairman, we said nobody really knows what the best producers are going to be 30 years from now.
▶ 0:37:10Sen. Wyden: So, why not create an opportunity for technological innovation. The murkowski-wyden bill allows that. I look forward to pursuing the bills you are talking about an senator padilla is interested in. That's the way that we work hands on all the time, using my basketball analogy, come into play every day.
▶ 0:37:32Chair Hoeven: The green and yellow that I wore in honor of your state today.
▶ 0:37:39Sen. Wyden: I've already been thinking about my response because the chairman is wearing green and yellow. What we do and our area is we wear green and yellow on monday and black and yellow so we cover our bases. I'm pleased that the chairman's connecting st. Patrick's day with the ducks, where I went to school.
▶ 0:37:59Chair Hoeven: The ducks are awesome. This is for north dakota state, but the ducks are awesome. Senator padilla, did you have -- ok. We will go to our witnesses. First, we will hear from david palombo, deputy commissioner of operations for the bureau of reclamation within the department of interior. Thank you for being here, the floor is yours.
▶ 0:38:22Mr. Palumbo: Thank you, chair hoeven, ranking member wyden members of the subcommittee. Thank you for the opportunity to testify on behalf of the department of the interior. I'm david palombo, deputy commissioner for operations for the bureau of reclamation. Reclamation appreciates your work and we stand ready to work with the subcommittee on these important bills.
▶ 0:38:45Mr. Palumbo: One of reclamation's focus bills before the subcommittee, a number focus on expanding existing or creating new grant programs. Senator wyden's watershed results act and senator hickenlooper's water smart water project navigators act seeks to improve reclamation's water smart program, which provides funding and technical assistance to states, tribes, and local entities for water conservation, drought planning, and infrastructure improvements.
▶ 0:39:15Mr. Palumbo: The bills seek to expand reclamation's authorities in the form of a new pilot program and new federally funded positions to help entities access federal funding. Senator padilla's act amends existing reclamation authority to fund demonstration projects that promote agricultural water efficiency projects. Reclamation would suggest that in each of these new programs it could be amended into existing programs to better meet the goals of the legislation. We would like to work with the bill sponsors to that end.
▶ 0:39:47Mr. Palumbo: Senator hickenlooper's no water supply forecasting program reauthorization act extends and expands reclamation's work developing multiple snow monitoring technologies to improve forecasts for the benefit of water management. Senator cortez masto's large-scale water recycling authorization act and senator daines reauthorization act extend authorities without the need for additional funding.
▶ 0:40:14Mr. Palumbo: Senator padilla' is more water act re-authorizes the large-scale water recycling program as well as other recycling and environmental restoration programs. The more water act also creates a broad new conveyance program for federal and nonfederal projects that expand reclamation's authorities beyond what are presently funded by congress. We share the goals of the legislation to increase water supply and conveyance and would like to work further with the bill's sponsor.
▶ 0:40:42Mr. Palumbo: Another bill that establishes a new program is senator gallego's water security and drought resilience act. The bill reauthorizes and expands the small storage program for five years and creates a new program for natural water retention and release projects. In addition, the bill authorizes the reservoir sentiment navigation program in arizona. Reclamation recognizes the importance of this program to promote water supply and resilience in the colorado river basin and would like to work with the bill sponsor to promote such opportunities.
▶ 0:41:16Mr. Palumbo: Senator daines' lower yellowstone river native fish conservation act and senator risch's urban canal modernization act would fund -- would both transfer financial responsibility of addressing infrastructure challenges from local water users to the federal government.
▶ 0:41:35Mr. Palumbo: In the case of the lower yellowstone by passed legislation, the administration wants to work with senator daines to address financial concerns from irrigation districts, while also ensuring local control by project beneficiaries. On urban canals, the bill seeks to make 35 percent of funding nonreimbursable. Reclamation recognizes the high cost base by operating partners that would like to work with the bill sponsor to address concerns with increasing federal costs on state and local projects.
▶ 0:42:06Mr. Palumbo: Senator hoeven's act authorizes over $1 billion for rural and tribal water projects across north dakota. Senator thune and senator rounds have introduced three bills to conduct feasibility studies on water projects in south dakota. These bills provide reclamation with the authority to conduct detailed analysis on the economic, environmental, technical, legal viability of these projects that impact south dakota and surrounding states so that congress can determine how best to move forward in the coming years.
▶ 0:42:37Mr. Palumbo: Finally, chairman lee's bill is related to a feasibility study on various temperature control options at glen canyon dam that will optimize hydropower and prevent the entrainment of fish species. We appreciate the commitment to critical water delivery and hydropower generation at glen canyon dam and the reclamation facilities across the west.
▶ 0:42:57Mr. Palumbo: As we approach the 70th anniversary of the colorado river storage project act, which authorized dams such as the glen canyon and flaming gorge, reclamation remains committed to the colorado river basin and the system of dams and reservoirs that support millions of people. In closing the bureau of reclamation remains committed to managing water and a responsible manner for the american people. Thank you for supporting reclamation's important work. I'm pleased to answer your questions.
▶ 0:43:30Chair Hoeven: Thank you, Mr. palombo. Appreciate you being here in your comments, and, of course, your responsiveness to the questions from the panel. Next, I would like to call on Mr. terry turpin, director of the office of energy projects for federal energy regulatory commission, ferc, within the department of energy. Thank you for being here.
▶ 0:43:51Mr. Turpin: Good morning, chairman hoeven, ranking member wyden, members of the subcommittee. I'm terry turpin, director of the office of energy projects at the federal energy regulatory commission. The office is responsible for taking a lead role in the commission's infrastructure projects including nonfederal hydropower projects, interstate natural gas pipelines, and storage facilities and liquefied natural gas terminals.
▶ 0:44:17Mr. Turpin: Thank you for the opportunity to appear before you to discuss current legislative efforts involving hydropower permitting and the commission's role in oversight of this infrastructure. As a member of the staff, the views I expressed in this testimony are my own and not necessarily those of the commissioner or any individual commissioner.
▶ 0:44:36Mr. Turpin: Under the federal power act, the nonfederal hydropower projects must be licensed by the commission if they are located on a navigable waterway, occupy federal land, you surplus water from a federal dam, or are located on certain waters subject to the commerce clause. In accordance with the fda, the commission currently regulates over 1600 nonfederal hydropower projects, including over 25 hundred dams.
▶ 0:45:02Mr. Turpin: Representing about 57 thousand megawatts of authorized capacity, which is more than half of all of the developed hydropower in the united states. The commission serves as the lead agency in all proceedings and prepares the documentation required for each project under the national environmental policy act.
▶ 0:45:19Mr. Turpin: Currently, the commission's processing about 100 87 pending applications of which approximately 90% are for real licenses of existing hydropower projects and about 10% are four original licenses or new power generation. Based on the license terms of existing projects, the number of projects that will begin the relicensing process will be high well into the 20 30's.
▶ 0:45:42Mr. Turpin: Over the next 10 years, more than 410 projects representing 41% of the commission's licensed project and 15% of the licensed power production capacity will begin the prefiling consultation stages of the re-licensing process. Once the commission has issued a license its role is to provide regulatory oversight of projects during the license term.
▶ 0:46:05Mr. Turpin: The post license workload involves entering complaints with license requirements, processing requests for extensions of time to comply with those requirements, and processing applications to amend licenses by modifying project operations. The post-licensing workload entails processing requests for license transfers between parties as well as applications to surrender a project license.
▶ 0:46:29Mr. Turpin: During fiscal year 2025, the commission processed 100 72 extension of time requests, 73 amendments to project facilities in operation, six hundred 12 complaints or allegations of noncompliance, and 27 license transfers or applications for the surrender of a project license.
▶ 0:46:48Mr. Turpin: Under the fda the commission is responsible for ensuring the water retaining features of hydropower projects are designed, constructed, operated, and maintained using current engineering standards and continue to meet federal guidelines for dam safety. The regularly scheduled inspections during construction and operations commissioned engineers verify the dams meet the stipulated design criteria and identify any necessary remedial modifications or required maintenance.
▶ 0:47:15Mr. Turpin: In fiscal year 2025 commission staff conducted 2085 inspections related to incident response construction and operation of dams and completed review of more than 11,000 dam safety related filings.
▶ 0:47:30Mr. Turpin: As the lead agency for the hydropower proceedings the commission has developed processes that take into account and consideration the views, recommendations, and conditions provided by federal and state agencies and stakeholders while also meeting our own statutory obligations to license projects that are best adapted for improving or developing a waterway.
▶ 0:47:53Mr. Turpin: The staffer remains committed to working with all agencies, stakeholders, congress to ensure the most effective processing of energy infrastructure matters and we are happy to provide any technical assistance you need as you move forward. Thank you for inviting me today. I will be happy to answer any questions you have.
▶ 0:48:11Chair Hoeven: Thank you, Mr. turpin. I see senator daines has joined us and I would ask if you have an opening statement you would like to make before we go to q and a.
▶ 0:48:29Sen. Wyden: It is fitting senator daines gets to make an opening statement because I noticed he is retiring, and I've enjoyed serving with him greatly. Speech on you.
▶ 0:48:36Sen. Daines: You are both very kind. >> look how young he looks. So young.
▶ 0:48:44Chair Hoeven: Go ahead if you would like to make an opening statement.
▶ 0:48:48Sen. Daines: You are both very kind. Chairman hoeven, ranking member wyden, it has been an amazing 14 years on capitol hill and I am energized, encouraged, and grateful for being partners in so many important issues in washington. Today, there are four of my bills.
▶ 0:49:10Sen. Daines: The lower yellowstone river native fish conservation act, the fort peck water system reauthorization act, the cooperative watershed management program reauthorization act, the hydropower licensing transparency act with my colleague senator cortez masto. All of these bills have critical impacts on clean water and energy availability in montana.
▶ 0:49:36Sen. Daines: The fort peck water system reauthorization act extends authority to december of 2028 for the bureau of reclamation to finalize construction of essential water infrastructure. This project is designed to provide municipal, rural, industrial water from two interconnected water systems. Within the fort peck reservation and within roosevelt, sheridan, daniels, and valley counties.
▶ 0:50:06Sen. Daines: It's helpful to remember that semi arid climate we have in montana. D.C. and seattle receive about the same amount of rain, 41 inches per year. In montana we get anywhere from 13 to 16 inches of measurable precipitation in a year. It is a semi arid climate. That is why the water projects are so important in a really arid part of the country.
▶ 0:50:36Sen. Daines: The infrastructure is so important. And please this bill will help ensure timely completion of projects. The other bill, senate bill 3409, reaffirms bor retain exclusive ownership, operational control, and financial responsibility for the lower yellowstone fish bypass channel when we can be very responsible as it relates to stewardship of our fish populations with these important bypasses, at the same
▶ 0:51:07Sen. Daines: Time good stewards of our water to allow farmers and ranchers to continue to support the most significant economic driver in my state, agriculture. The lower yellowstone irrigation project located 70 miles upstream from the yellowstone and missouri river confluence in eastern montana includes an intake diversion' -- divergence dam and a 225 miles of lateral canals.
▶ 0:51:36Sen. Daines: The project was authorized by the department of interior in 1904 to provide irrigation water to approximately 58,000 acres in eastern montana and western north dakota. This is where senator hoeven's ears perk up because I mention north dakota. It irrigates crops like sugar beets, alfalfa, wheat, barley, rye, and aquifer recharge.
▶ 0:52:02Sen. Daines: In 2000 seven the construction of a bypass channel for fish was authorized to allow the endangered pallet storage and access to upstream spawning grounds. However, irrigators in the region are being expected to take on operational and maintenance responsibility of this extraordinarily expensive bypass channel.
▶ 0:52:23Sen. Daines: I've received dozens of letters from irrigation districts, county commissions, rural electric co-ops and ag producers and the governor of montana. I would like to ask unanimous consent that these be added to the hearing record.
▶ 0:52:39Chair Hoeven: Without objection.
▶ 0:52:43Sen. Daines: Federal agencies, not the irrigators, should be responsible for ensuring the long-term success of the bypass channel to protect the pallet sturgeon and this bill will do that. What we do inland tan a managing fish populations, once upon a time when I was a little kid growing up we used to stock rivers in montana. We would grow the fish in a hatchery and dump them in the rivers.
▶ 0:53:09Sen. Daines: Fish biologists starting to challenge that idea said that native fish would be more resistant to disease and we would see higher fish populations if we stopped stocking the rivers. It seems counterintuitive. They studied that in the madison river, not far from where I grew up. I was flyfishing the madison river before brad pitt discovered flyfishing with robert redford. They took a section and they stopped stocking it.
▶ 0:53:38Sen. Daines: They studied it and found out that the fish populations went up, not down. They found out that the native fish were more resistant to disease and were not as aggressive feeding during spotting. Spirit montana no longer stocks its rivers and our fish populations at a per mile basis are at the highest levels, the fishery is robust. I share that because we are thoughtful and intentional.
▶ 0:54:07Sen. Daines: Like the sturgeon, we want to have the bypass channel, we want to make sure irrigators are not bearing the burden of the cost of doing that. We sure that to make sure our farmers, ranchers, and fish populations can all thrive. Before I close I want to also recognize senator cortez masto. We have a bill, senate bill 3500, which increases transparency in the licensing process for hydropower projects.
▶ 0:54:38Sen. Daines: I ask unanimous consent to add that to the record. Without objection from you? Thank you. The companion bill hr 3657 -- we did not beat north dakota state this year but someone else did. He is more compliant. That is a good looking tie you have. It is the duck colors.
▶ 0:55:06Sen. Daines: It is already past the voice vote and I am encouraging the senate to pass by unanimous consent to get to the president's desk. I'm past my time, thank you for the extra minute.
▶ 0:55:16Chair Hoeven: That's absolutely fine. Senator murkowski, another person who would be an expert on fish stocking, we are talking about stocking not stalking. -- if you would like to make an opening statement. >> I appreciate what you have shared with the committee, senator daines.
▶ 0:55:48Chair Hoeven: As you know in alaska we are pretty proud of our wild species that roam our rivers. We see the same thing. It is the native species that are more hearty and more resistant. Management is an important thing. We recognize that. Interesting to hear your comparison. Mr. chairman, I love the fact that we are before the water and power subcommittee this morning.
▶ 0:56:20Chair Hoeven: Senator daines has reminded us in his home state it is often relatively arid. As you mentioned your 16 inches I harken back to my birthplace in alaska where I checked the average rainfall for 2025 and it was 160 inches. So, add a zero to your 16, sir.
▶ 0:56:48Chair Hoeven: Sometimes we say, what is the problem with these states that don't have ample water because we cannot really relate to that, but thus the reason for the two measures I have before the subcommittee this morning, and I appreciate you and the ranking member including s. 3518 as well as s. 3684.
▶ 0:57:18Chair Hoeven: Senator wyden is very familiar with that one. As I mentioned, we have a lot of water in alaska, great water resources with lakes and rivers. We have some of the strongest tides in the world along the thousands of miles of coastline. We got a lot strength in our tides, yet so many of our coastal and river community still rely on diesel.
▶ 0:57:46Chair Hoeven: If you're watching the news, diesel is through the roof, but it was already through the roof. Communities paying over $10 a gallon for diesel. So, it makes a difference in terms of the impact to our families and communities. So, the flows act makes some commonsense improvements by hydropower permitting.
▶ 0:58:12Chair Hoeven: Right now in the state where you have a small operator, the operator is required to file license amendments with ferc for routine maintenance for simple equipment replacements. These are projects that are -- the plans are already approved and the work is relatively minor. The safety oversight is fully intact, yet you have operator's waiting months for approvals.
▶ 0:58:42Chair Hoeven: That translates into costs for small utilities and our communities. What we do in the flow act is clarify routine maintenance, in-kind replacements, temporary operational adjustments that do not substantially change the project do not require a full licensing amendment. Ferc maintains full authority over dam safety and can require when changes are needed but we eliminate some of the red tape that slows projects down.
▶ 0:59:11Chair Hoeven: I will tell you, I had an opportunity to go to a dam project on the island --, to understand what they were trying to do was provide for a painting, if yo uwi painting, if yo uu will.
▶ 0:59:35Chair Hoeven: Not for anything but to reinforce the dam structure that was already there, that was required to go through this lengthy process, just to repaint. We look at things like that and we say there has to be a better way. We also address a gap affecting marine energy technologies.
▶ 0:59:55Chair Hoeven: We establish a modernizing licensing pathway for small systems that can harness energy from tides, waves, and river currents that do not have any dams. If you want to go fishing somewhere, there is an amazing community in southwestern, a small population, 68 people.
▶ 1:00:22Chair Hoeven: They have been a partnership with ocean renewable power company and have been testing an in-river turbine that generates electricity directly from the current. Every year the device operates the community is saving nearly 23,000 gallons of diesel fuel. This is how they get power. They have a couple of solar panels.
▶ 1:00:47Chair Hoeven: The turbines have allowed the village to shut off the diesel generators for roughly 275 days a year, a huge savings for a small community. Again, I mentioned that this is in an area where there is prolific fishery. What we have been able to demonstrate through the years of monitoring is, more than 100 million sockeye salmon and 10 million adult salmon past the turbine without injury or mortality.
▶ 1:01:18Chair Hoeven: I have been on-site and I've seen the turbine waiting to go into the river, I've seen it in the river, and this is an area where if there is no fish there is no purpose for the people to be there. They would be the first to object if this interfered. It is an astonishing project and others are looking to its potential. Despite this, the project is regulated under the same framework designed for a large, conventional dam.
▶ 1:01:45Chair Hoeven: This is a small turbine that sits not on the bottom of the river, but a little above so that you have flow underneath and above. And it is in the river. Yet it is being regulated as a larger, conventional dam which doesn't make sense.
▶ 1:02:10Chair Hoeven: The flows act creates a licensing process better suited for small, innovative technologies. It establishes clear timelines so developers and communities know when to expect decisions. The other bill is the one I'm working on with ranking member wyden. I appreciate your good work on this. This builds on what we've done before in our waterpower research and development authorization.
▶ 1:02:36Chair Hoeven: We reauthorized the doe waterpower's technology office instrumental in advancing hydropower and marine energy research including several projects in alaska. We update the program to reflect where the industry is going. It supports integration with microgrids, promotes workforce development, and domestic manufacturing and encourages research into arctic operating conditions, ensuring that technologies are designed to work in cold water and ice-prone environments.
▶ 1:03:05Chair Hoeven: We promote collaboration with tribal entities and local stakeholders. Really important in my area where many of our energy projects are developed in partnership with our alaskan native communities. Two good bills. I think we take a practical approach. We modernize outdated regulations, support innovation, make sure a federal program to reflect the realities facing our communities.
▶ 1:03:27Chair Hoeven: It helps us in alaska, but I think this kind of pioneering, this technology, we can prove it out in alaska, we can make it work in oregon, north dakota, california, and colorado. I appreciate the subcommittee's good work on these important issues and look forward to partnering with you on them. Thank you.
▶ 1:03:47Chair Hoeven: Thank you, interesting stuff. Now we will turn to the questions for our panel members. Mr. palombo, thank you for appearing today. We appreciate the interior department and bureau of recs support for the amendment of 2026. As you know we have worked closely to craft legislation that aligns support with reclamation, the state of north dakota, and the five tribal nations in our state.
▶ 1:04:17Chair Hoeven: The bill received bipartisan approval out of this committee and the last congress. I want to thank senator padilla for cosponsoring the legislation and I appreciate his willingness for us to work together on bipartisan water priorities for california and north dakota. As I mentioned in my opening remarks, our legislation is key to completing critical water supply projects for our state, including the eastern north dakota alternate water supply.
▶ 1:04:49Chair Hoeven: It is a win-win partnership for the federal government and north dakota that ensures half of north dakota has access to reliable, drought-resilient water supply. This project also enables reclamation to generate revenue from underutilized garrison diversion facilities like the mccluskey canal.
▶ 1:05:15Chair Hoeven: Communities in eastern north dakota and potentially western minnesota would benefit from lower construction and operations costs as a result. My question is, will you continue to work with me, our state, the tribes to help pass this legislation so we can work on the funding side and bring these projects to completion?
▶ 1:05:35Mr. Palumbo: Thank you, senator hoeven. Yes, absolutely. Both projects are instrumental for the state of north dakota. Of course, for tribes and nontribal members. You have our commitment to work with you on those projects. You mentioned drought resiliency. They are both important drought resilient projects and our commitment remains solid to work with you on that legislation.
▶ 1:05:59Chair Hoeven: Thank you, Mr. palombo. The bureau has been a good partner and we appreciate it. Mr. turpin, you note in your testimony the complexities in the licensing process for hydropower projects, a little of what senator murkowski was talking about, but including compliance with coordination with numeral federal and state agencies often on timelines and deadlines.
▶ 1:06:29Chair Hoeven: Will you expand on ferc's efforts to streamline the licensing process to better leverage hydropower resources?
▶ 1:06:36Mr. Turpin: Absolutely, chairman. The commissioners are very invested in that singular issue and have been expressing a lot of interest in different ways to tackle the plethora of permitting decisions that have to get lined up to get one project approved.
▶ 1:06:55Chair Hoeven: Do you have any specific recommendations to how congress can help you in that process?
▶ 1:07:02Mr. Turpin: I think the biggest recommendation I would have is simply a recognition that all the statutes out there that govern these facilities, they all aren't lining up in the same fashion. They all have slightly different intense as to what the outcome is supposed to be. What that does is present a lot of agencies with slightly different missions.
▶ 1:07:29Mr. Turpin: Our focus is on the best adaptive plan for the entire waterway which includes power production and water uses you've mentioned, but that may not be true for other agencies that are looking at a much smaller slice. The thing that is needed is that congressional direction about what is in the national interest . What is the thing congress wants focused on for these licensees and processes so we can get into the same vein and process these as quickly as we can.
▶ 1:07:58Chair Hoeven: It's important you provide those recommendations as part of our recommendations on permitting reform, which the committee is working on. Thank you to both of you for being here.
▶ 1:08:07Sen. Wyden: My colleagues have been very gracious. We will go with senator padilla next and then I will follow him and senator hickenlooper has been very helpful, too.
▶ 1:08:19Sen. Padilla: , thank you, senator wyden, for the accommodation. Deputy commissioner, thank you for your decades of honorable civil service and leadership in the west. It is notable and very much appreciated. On the subject at hand, we know that there are many barriers to meeting our water infrastructure needs in the west. One of the key barriers is the time.
▶ 1:08:48Sen. Padilla: Even when we know projects we need from water recycling facilities to advance improvements, safe drinking water upgrades, etc., the process to authorize and fund these projects can take years, sometimes a decade or more.
▶ 1:09:07Sen. Padilla: The more water act, which I put forward, would streamline that process by reauthorizing and expanding programmatic approvals for the bureau of reclamation's water supply projects instead of requiring project by project authorization by congress. Projects would seek funding directly once they are found feasible.
▶ 1:09:28Sen. Padilla: I would like to think that faster development of water recycling projects, of conveyance projects in the west would be welcome news. Deputy commissioner, do you agree that the programmatic authorizations in the more water act would help us address our water infrastructure needs?
▶ 1:09:55Mr. Palumbo: Thank you, senator padilla. Absolutely. Programmatic authorities help the bureau of reclamation be more nimble to react more swiftly to address drought in the west in particular. We do benefit from project specific authorizations as well, but having a programmatic ability to implement efforts on the ground is also often expedited by having such authority.
▶ 1:10:23Mr. Palumbo: We have an aging infrastructure authority where we can deploy resources very nimbly without having individual project authorizations, as long as those underlying projects have been authorized in some fashion.
▶ 1:10:36Sen. Padilla: It is off balance. We cannot do all project by project, all programmatic, we have to have the right balance. On a second topic, I know time is going by fast, research suggests agricultural water use efficiency measures are dramatically less expensive, or can be dramatically less expensive. The construction of new water supplies.
▶ 1:11:04Sen. Padilla: It' its required infrastructure. They often cost hundreds of dollars per acre foot of water in savings which could be as much as 90% less then the thousands of dollars per acre for the new water supplies could cost. We have water needs in the colorado river basin and elsewhere in the west. It's cost is a focus and concern.
▶ 1:11:29Sen. Padilla: This speaks to the other measures I've introduced before us today, the actor that would authorize federal funding support demonstration projects of innovative agricultural water efficiency projects that benefit farmers. These are not mandates. These are voluntary. They are demonstrations, farmer-lead, locally-driven efforts to test new irrigation strategies. Is this a tool?
▶ 1:12:00Sen. Padilla: Would you agree voluntary demonstrations of voluntary agricultural water use projects could be a valuable tool in addressing the supply and cost challenges that we have to meet the needs of our growing population and economy?
▶ 1:12:13Mr. Palumbo: Yes, senator padilla.
▶ 1:12:15Sen. Padilla: Great answer. Feel free to expand.
▶ 1:12:18Mr. Palumbo: We have an acute supply and demand imbalance problem in the west, and we've gotten good at doing more with the same amount of water. What I see your bill doing is trying to do the same with a less amount of water. That is where we need to pivot to manage water in the west. We know the supplies are reducing.
▶ 1:12:40Mr. Palumbo: If we can figure out smart ways to do the same with less water, the bureau of reclamation absolutely supports initiatives such as that.
▶ 1:12:50Sen. Padilla: We are trying to think innovatively. California alone is the fourth largest economy in the world. All western regions of the united states, it's bigger than that. California alone is the largest agricultural producing state of any state in the nation. You combine agriculture of all the western states, it's even larger. The needs are acute in the west.
▶ 1:13:18Sen. Padilla: We are leaning into it and appreciate your partnership.
▶ 1:13:21Chair Hoeven: Ranking member wyden.
▶ 1:13:23Sen. Wyden: Thank you, Mr. chairman. Mr. palombo, Mr. turpin, both of you have been decades on the front lines thinking about this. I will tell you, I feel a little like I'm having an out of body experience. I am a senate democrat and I am advocating using the private sector more. The administration, made up of republicans, has been using mostly a program standard.
▶ 1:13:54Sen. Wyden: My sense is there is an opportunity here to do something that is overdue, be bipartisan. Tell me your thoughts on how we might figure out how to start gradually using results in the private sector to play a bigger role?
▶ 1:14:14Sen. Wyden: We are not advocating throwing everything out altogether, but it seems to me that results in the private sector have an opportunity now to make a huge difference in terms of water when we need it and there is a chance to look at it in a pilot-sort of way as we are doing in our legislation. Your thoughts?
▶ 1:14:38Mr. Palumbo: Thank you. The reclamation prides itself on professional excellence and one way is to measure our results. Using the private sector or the public sector for that matter, holding ourselves accountable, measuringbest available technoly measuringbest available technolg what we are paying for is actually achieved is very important to reclamation.
▶ 1:15:09Mr. Palumbo: Our program for established an application review committee where we review applications to ensure that they are using the best available science, that they are using demonstrated projects and that ultimately we verify that what we anticipated to be installed was installed. However, what your bill is proposing is ratcheting that up to verify those results with the private sector.
▶ 1:15:38Mr. Palumbo: We would like to work with your office to figure out how our existing water smart program can incorporate some of the ideas put forward in your bill to smartly assess whether the american taxpayer is in fact getting what he or she has paid for.
▶ 1:15:54Sen. Wyden: I should probably quit while I'm ahead because I appreciate the fact that he will work with us. Can we do that so the next couple of weeks we will nail down something that uses the private sector because I think we are now headed toward the home stretch of this session and there is lots of interest in this area. As I talked about earlier, I'm going to town hall meetings where this is the issue, the question of droughts and water and snow-packed.
▶ 1:16:24Sen. Wyden: We have been hit by a wrecking ball in terms of the opportunity to deal with these issues. Can we nail this down in terms of using the private sector over the next few weeks?
▶ 1:16:37Mr. Palumbo: Absolutely. We will look at all of the objectives and see how they can be incorporated.
▶ 1:16:44Sen. Wyden: That is very much in line with what I understand your career is about which is not particularly looking at water as a blue issue or red issue and everybody saying this is my approach because it is partisan and just trying to get out the smartest ideas and I think we have a chance to do some good work. Mr. turpin, let me just ask a question of you.
▶ 1:17:07Sen. Wyden: I mentioned morgan state testing technology. One of the debates is neither side looks adequately at technology. What I did is I came up with something that we call technological neutrality. The chairman remembers senator manchin who always said he is for all of the above.
▶ 1:17:38Sen. Wyden: I said, technological neutrality can go further because you can test just about anything as science gives you the opportunities. Isn't that what we are trying to really do is look at the technologies? That is what senator murkowski was talking about. I think that is what you have talked about in the past and it is something that can bring all sides together.
▶ 1:18:02Sen. Wyden: I filed my bill in the past that became law because I want whoever is in charge around here in the years that it is going to say technological neutrality encourages good science and innovation and the private sector.
▶ 1:18:16Interested Mr. Turpin: In your thoughts.
▶ 1:18:17Mr. Turpin: I completely agree. The commission has a long standard of not just technical neutrality but production neutrality. It is all energy provision on the table and it is really about the best way to get that to the american people's use. Could not agree more.
▶ 1:18:35Mr. Turpin: In terms of technology on the waterways, as you mentioned, pack waste having daters, a number of efforts have been under to think a bit test beds -- to incubate testbeds to get different ways to test so that companies have a chance. It is an enormous risk to take on a full license on a new technology.
▶ 1:19:01Mr. Turpin: Things likepacwave present really good approaches.
▶ 1:19:10Sen. Wyden: Thank you very much for your thoughts and we will be interested in your thoughts on the incentives. In the bill that was enacted, we tied it to reducing carbon. I think there are a variety of other opportunities in addition to that. In other words, I filed that old bill so we can continue to create incentives for reducing carbon and that really came from this committee where senator risch and others were saying we are just interested in the bottom line. We want to have something that really is going to be responsive .
▶ 1:19:39Sen. Wyden: If you have some ideas on that that would be useful here and it would be useful in the finance committee. A big thanks to both of you for your dedication over so many years. Chairman, good hearing and look forward to working closely with you.
▶ 1:19:54Chair Hoeven: Thank you, ranking member. We will turn to senator hickenlooper.
▶ 1:20:02Sen. Hickenlooper: Thank you, Mr. chair. A very timely meeting. Mr. palumbo, you probably don't know much about my background but I have a regrettable history of having been an english major as an undergraduate and trying to figure out a way to have a career in writing but at the same time fell in love with geology. I could not help but notice you were an english major as an undergraduate and got into the engineering side of things really more in graduate school.
▶ 1:20:34Sen. Hickenlooper: I hope it serves you as well as it has served me. Obviously the colorado river basin and you having the lower basin responsibility, we missed key deadlines on figuring out how to negotiate this incredibly intense drought we are all dealing with.
▶ 1:20:56Sen. Hickenlooper: Reclamation draft makes it clear that none of the alternatives if examined fairly will adequately protect the system without additional agreements or some form of subsidies. Without clarity on what reclamation will rely on and what actions it will take in the absence of consensus which we are still working on, to be plain.
▶ 1:21:25Sen. Hickenlooper: It is hard, may be impossible for states and tribes and water users to plan ahead and hash out these negotiations and solutions because we don't have clarity on what authorities reclamation is going to rely on. If the basin cannot reach an agreement, what actions is reclamation preparing to take to protect the colorado river system and manage after 2026?
▶ 1:22:05Sen. Hickenlooper: ?
▶ 1:22:08Mr. Palumbo: We are working to achieve consensus. That is our preferred outcome of the seven basin states discussion is consensus. It is incumbent upon the bureau of reclamation to operate the system responsibility -- responsibly within our existing authorities should we not receive consensus. So what will we do in that particular case? I will start at the top of the system and work down.
▶ 1:22:38Mr. Palumbo: We have authorities under the 1956 colorado river basin act. We would do so meeting the multiple benefits, purposes that are identified in that act and operate those additional units.
▶ 1:22:54Mr. Palumbo: Moving down to lake powell, not only do we have the 1956 act but we also have the 19 colorado river basin -- the 1968 colorado river basin act that establishes releases. We would rely on that authority. Moving down to the lower basin, we know there is a supply and demand imbalance.
▶ 1:23:21Mr. Palumbo: There is a deficit of supply and we know that they're willing to be reductions in the lower basin. We would implement those reductions pursuant to the 1928 boulder canyon project act that authorized hoover dam and all-american canal as well as set forth the apportionments to the lower basin states.
▶ 1:23:42Mr. Palumbo: We also have the supreme court decree, arizona versus california 19 64 ultimately consolidated into thousand six. We would have reductions in the lower basin relying on that authority. I will also say the secretary of the interior, as the watermaster , beyond just the watermaster has authorities under the reclamation's founding act in 1902 and 1930. We would rely on those.
▶ 1:24:14Mr. Palumbo: Again we are hoping for consensus but we are prepared to operate the system.
▶ 1:24:18Sen. Hickenlooper: That is going to be the necessity if we cannot negotiate a settlement. I am still optimistic that we can do that. Congress provided the $4 billion in the inflation reduction act specifically for drought mitigation at the colorado river. I was part of that. Putting that in and making sure it stayed there.
▶ 1:24:45Sen. Hickenlooper: The idea is to promote conservation and enhance environmental resilience, reduce risk to the entire system. The good news is colorado and upper basin states had several bucket two projects that were approved that would achieve all those goals. The bad news is the funding, the actual allocation of those dollars has been held up for over a year. Do you have any idea when that funding is going to be released and if not soon, what is causing the delay?
▶ 1:25:17Mr. Palumbo: Thank you, senator. Of the $4 billion we received for drought, we have obligated almost $3 billion so we have $1 billion left to go. We have those bucket two projects you mentioned and other projects in the lower basin. We are going through a process right now to ensure that we obligate that money before the end of fiscal year 2026 but he get to the best use both in the upper basin and the lower basin.
▶ 1:25:48Mr. Palumbo: We need conservation, contributions, pools to help offset impacts to tribes and non-tribal. Our intention is to get that money out the door, put it to work and have it obligated before this fiscal year.
▶ 1:26:05Sen. Hickenlooper: I am out of time but I want to thank you for all of your work on this. The senators of those seven states would be happy to have this deal done. There is always a little bit of space between governors and senators.
▶ 1:26:21Sen. Hickenlooper: In this case I think there is a strong will that the seven states, there is no reason why they should not be able to figure out a compromise and should the other side of each negotiation, each point of contention and find out what is a fair resolution so that we don't put you in that position of having to make decisions that are difficult for are going to get you into more hot water.
▶ 1:26:50Sen. Hickenlooper: Thank you for all of your work and I will commit on colorado's side but I can speak for all seven republican and democratic senators who believe that we really need to find a solution where all seven states have a consensus. Thank you for all of your work. I yield back.
▶ 1:27:06Chair Hoeven: Thank you, senator hickenlooper. I knew you were a man of science. I understand you are a man of letters as well. That's good. I don't envy you, Mr. palumbo. That is a massive challenge in terms of the colorado river and figuring out how we handle the issue fairly. Just a massive challenge but really important to a lot of people.
▶ 1:27:33Chair Hoeven: Again, the old adage, whiskey is for drinking and water is for fighting because these are real challenges. I know you are hard at work and I appreciate it. I want to thank both were witnesses for being here today as well as the members of the energy and water committee for being here. Questions for the record and statements for the official record are due by 6:00 p.m. On tuesday, march 24th and with that, we are adjourned.
▶ 1:28:02Chair Hoeven: [captioning performed by the national captioning institute, which is responsible for its caption content and accuracy. Visit ncicap.org]