▶ 0:17:09Chair Lee: The committee will come to order. Before turning to my opening statement, I want to let members know how we are going to proceed this morning. I want to thank senator heinrich and his staff for working with us on today's hearing. On may 23, 2025, president trump issued four executive orders concerning nuclear energy to help launch a renaissance that -- in that really important area.
▶ 0:17:39Chair Lee: That increasingly important area within the energy sector of the united states. These executive orders to the following, direct deployment of advanced nuclear reactor technology for national security, require needed reforms of the nuclear regulatory commission, licensed nuclear facilities, employee existing department of energy authorities to accelerate nuclear reactor testing and deployment of new designs, and direct cumbrian's of action to reinvigorate america's nuclear industrial
▶ 0:18:12Chair Lee: Base, secure supply chains, and prepare our workforce to ensure american nuclear energy dominance. Today, the scent committee on energy and natural resources will hear testimony regarding the U.S. department of energy and the mentation of these orders from president trump.
▶ 0:18:28Chair Lee: We will receive testimony from experts, theodore gerrish, assistant secretary of energy for nuclear energy, john wagner, director of the idaho national laboratory and president of battelle energy alliance, and Dr. mike laufer, cofounder and chief executive officer of kairos power.
▶ 0:18:52Chair Lee: I welcome each of you to the committee today. For much of the past century the united states operated from a position that most countries have never had. We had reliable energy that allowed american industry to thrive. It allowed the economy to grow. They gave the united states a level of independence that few nations enjoy.
▶ 0:19:22Chair Lee: When that advantage has slipped, consequences have been immediate. Supply disruption drove prices up and gave foreign producers leverage. Decisions made overseas began to shape outcomes at home more than they had previously. For the first time in decades, we are confronting some of the same pressures again. The question is no longer how we use energy. It is whether we have enough of it.
▶ 0:19:49Chair Lee: Data centers are not going to wait. Advanced manufacturing is not slowing down. The systems driving artificial intelligence do not just scale down when power is scarce. They go to where the electricity is. If we cannot meet the demand here, it will be met somewhere else. We can be sure of that. When energy tightens, everything downstream follows.
▶ 0:20:17Chair Lee: This requires constant large-scale reliable energy and that is where nuclear energy comes in. Today, we are examining whether the united states is moving quickly enough to deploy the next generation of nuclear technologies. One has long been a staple and essential part of our energy mix is becoming central to whether we can meet this demand. We are already seeing energy intensive industries turn toward nuclear as a long-term solution.
▶ 0:20:49Chair Lee: Russia and china both understand this. They are building reactors at scale, financing and exporting them across the world, locking in fuel supply arrangements that tie countries to their technology and their influence for decades. To put it bluntly, energy will determine the global balance of power for the next generation. If we hesitate now, we will not just fall behind.
▶ 0:21:15Chair Lee: We will be operating inside a system defined by others, dependent on supply chains and standards that we did not write. That is not a position of strength and not a position the united states can accept. The question before us is no longer whether nuclear energy will play a role in our future. It is how much capacity we can build and how quickly we can build it.
▶ 0:21:40Chair Lee: Recognizing that urgency, president trump issued four executive orders last may to elevate the american industry -- energy industry to the next level. These orders build on previous work done in congress, bipartisan work done on some of these issues. They focus on modernizing the regulatory framework, accelerating reactor testing, enabling deployment for national security applications and rebuilding the domestic nuclear industrial base.
▶ 0:22:09Chair Lee: At least three test reactors will tree of criticality by july 4 of this year. A micro reactor will be deployed at a military installation by 2028. 10 new large reactors will be under construction by 2030. The department of has begun and lamenting -- implementing these directives, including expanding use of existing authorities.
▶ 0:22:35Chair Lee: In coordination with idaho national laboratory, it has rolled out in such as the reactor and fuel line pilot programs to support advanced reactor development and deployment. Today's hearing provides an opportunity to examine that execution, assess programs, identify remaining barriers, and determine what additional actions may be necessary to ensure that the united states leads in nuclear energy technology.
▶ 0:23:05Chair Lee: We are joined by witnesses who are directly involved in and lamenting and advancing these efforts and I look forward to hearing from them. I now recognize the ranking member, senator heinrich, for his opening remarks.
▶ 0:23:17Sen. Heinrich: Welcome to our witnesses. We will talk about the department of energy and limitation of president trump implement -- -- implementation of president trump's executive orders. Congress has affirmed the importance of nuclear energy to meeting our energy needs.
▶ 0:23:49Sen. Heinrich: The broad deployment of nuclear and renewable power can foster a grid that is reliable and affordable for americans. At a time when customers energy bills are being driven upward by tariffs and the war in iran and project delays and cancellations caused by the secretary of interior, we need to add large energy sources to the grid as fast as possible.
▶ 0:24:12Sen. Heinrich: Nuclear power especially has many valuable attributes that can help meet the energy and resource demands of artificial intelligence in an economically and environmentally responsibly way. We will hear about efforts to advance new technologies that use novel coolants that could reduce the water usage of power plants. And we will hear about the department efforts to help innovate, validate, and demonstrate technologies that can one day help serve the industrial and defense sectors.
▶ 0:24:42Sen. Heinrich: These are outcomes that congress has long sought to catalyze. Congress has repeatedly passed bipartisan legislation to advance nuclear energy in the united states. This committee has supported multiple bills to accelerate development of domestic supply chains for nuclear fuel and to enhance nuclear energy innovation.
▶ 0:25:06Sen. Heinrich: The nuclear energy innovation and capabilities act directed the doe to assess ability to authorize, host, and oversee privately funded advanced nuclear test reactors at the national labs or other doe sites. The energy act of 2020 authorize doe to develop a program to support production of advanced nuclear fuels. The nuclear fuel security act expanded those efforts to support the domestic supply for low enriched uranium fuel.
▶ 0:25:39Sen. Heinrich: The advanced act directed the nuclear regulatory commission to strengthen its workforce, develop licensing schedules, and fast-track processes for existing sites. The members of this committee have supported america's civilian nuclear energy industry and I am pleased to have our witnesses here to update us on these efforts. Achieving our shared goals will rely on responsible implement ation by the executive branch.
▶ 0:26:10Sen. Heinrich: I believe the U.S. nuclear industry needs greater confidence in administration policies on nuclear energy. In the same year the president signed the executive orders we are discussing, he also saw a bunch that would have reduced funding for the office of nuclear energy by over $400 million. A reduction that would have surely impaired ability to execute on these important activities.
▶ 0:26:37Sen. Heinrich: While the department rhetoric on nuclear energy has been supported, it is not always clear whether the support extends to the whole of the industry or just those most familiar with the white house and members of his inner circle. I have set before that right now the U.S. grid needs every electron it can get. We need to make affordable energy affordable again in this country.
▶ 0:27:04Sen. Heinrich: Doing so requires supporting early innovation to accelerate breakthrough technologies, applying to new reactor technologies but also to examining the fuel cycle. In october I introduced a bill with santa cruz titled the exit -- the advancing research and nuclear fuel recycling act which would study pathways to advance innovative nuclear fuel recycling technologies.
▶ 0:27:29Sen. Heinrich: Such pathways could provide a solution for harnessing the used fuel currently stored at 120 one sites across the united states. These technologies could provide additional nuclear fuel streams and enhance the resilience of our domestic energy infrastructure. I soon plan to introduce the economic assistance reauthorization act which would continue economic support for communities that host nuclear waste and support our national security activities.
▶ 0:27:59Sen. Heinrich: I'm hopeful the committee will have the opportunity to further discuss these issues and consider legislating proposals to promote U.S. nuclear innovation. I will close by adding that addressing energy affordability requires promoting certainty. In the case of nuclear, that include certainty of safety, a regulatory process, and of the department's role under the law. The department energy can be a tremendous partner to the private sector and states.
▶ 0:28:29Sen. Heinrich: Today we will hear specific examples of how. These insights will emphasize how successful implementation of nuclear energy policy relies on strong partnerships, partnerships with states and the nrc and the civilian industry. Our witnesses today have hands-on experience in how the public and private sectors can work together to propel innovation and further our country's goals.
▶ 0:28:58Sen. Heinrich: I look forward to this discussion today.
▶ 0:29:01Chair Lee: Thanks so much, ranking member heinrich. There's a lot of interest in this area and a lot of bipartisan enthusiasm to see these things move forward. We will recognize now each of our three witnesses for their opening statements. Your written statements will also be made part of the record but we will hear from each of you. Assistant secretary garrish, we will start with you.
▶ 0:29:27Mr. Garrish: Thank you for the invitation to appear today. I do appreciate the work this committee has done over the years. I have worked with this committee on both sides of the aisle and I'm looking forward to this year the important steps we need to take.
▶ 0:29:46Mr. Garrish: The president recognizing the importance of nuclear energy and the need to move forward with four executive orders and I will talk about how our objectives deal with those particular items. There are four areas I would like to cover briefly this morning. You have my written statement already. Number one is to reestablish the domestic uranium enrichment program. Number two is to foster new bills.
▶ 0:30:14Mr. Garrish: Three is to expand international exports of U.S. nuclear products and finally to establish a complete fuel cycle so let me go through each of those and tell you what we are doing on each. First is domestic enrichment.
▶ 0:30:33Mr. Garrish: When I first came on the board, I recognized the biggest risk to the nuclear industry with the pending shut off of the russian imports, that meant that we were losing 3.5 million separated work units, which was a percent of our total production. When I last held this job got the U.S.
▶ 0:30:58Mr. Garrish: Had 20% of the domestic market but now we have a small share and much was imported. We then had to deal with trying to reestablish the domestic industry. Congress passed an important enrichment bill providing good funding for that possibility and it was proximally four years ago.
▶ 0:31:24Mr. Garrish: One of the first tasks I took on was to establish what we had to do to get the domestic industry back. And build capacity. We made awards for three companies to do that in the U.S.
▶ 0:31:43Mr. Garrish: And I believe we will be able within the timeframe of the next couple years to have a viable domestic uranium enrichment industry. If we still encounter gaps, we do have's the authority from the president executive orders under the defense production act to take other steps as necessary but I think we are -- the way we are currently operating we should be able to have sufficient domestic supply to meet the gap.
▶ 0:32:13Mr. Garrish: The second area of very important to us is new starts. And there are a number of areas that we have and one is the deal we programs and that begins with the advanced reactor demonstration program.
▶ 0:32:31Mr. Garrish: A very large sum of money has been contributed in public and private partnerships and we have two companies that have received substantial funds in public-private partnership to get the advanced reactor business moving. We have a ways to go and additional funds were appropriated this year, which we are in the process of now awarding to the companies.
▶ 0:32:57Mr. Garrish: Secondly we had the gen three plus program, which is the deal right now with potentially small modular reactors and we made awards, and those are very important programs to get the smr program moving forward.
▶ 0:33:18Mr. Garrish: In addition to that, there is a number of other programs that we are looking at and one of them is how do we get reactors started in the U.S.? As you know, the commerce department has many programs and I think there will be some announcements beginning today from the japanese and a process to get started.
▶ 0:33:48Mr. Garrish: Then the next very important project is the pilot projects that we have in idaho and those are very interesting projects, very small reactors. These are micro-.
▶ 0:34:04Mr. Garrish: When I first saw the executive order, which indicated the president wanted from scratch at least three reactors, critical by july 4, the 250th anniversary of the united states, I could not imagine how that will be possible. We sent out a request for applicants and received 11.
▶ 0:34:24Mr. Garrish: Out of that 11, it appears as if at least three or four will be able to meet that deadline and I'm hopeful we will be able to have the reactors operating this year. Other reactors are also the program will be active later in the year. But that is going to move forward well. A lot people say why pilots?
▶ 0:34:56Mr. Garrish: Why is this important? To me, this indicates the enthusiasm the U.S. can get reactors in operation and this has been an exciting program for us and I think it is going to lead to other activities going forward. The other thing that is important is that out of the four reactors we now have a safety analysis on these four and they are likely to go forward. Two of them have future lives already.
▶ 0:35:27Mr. Garrish: One for potential military establishment and another in a foreign country that is very interested in this particular reactor so we already have life at these reactors moving forward and into the future, which is important. The next area is international and I want to speak about that briefly.
▶ 0:35:51Mr. Garrish: In the first trump administration, I was fortunate to be in intergovernmental agreements, two that were important to us, one with poland and one with romania. The polish one was for six reactors and that process has now started. They have done the initial studies and three have been contracted with the government.
▶ 0:36:17Mr. Garrish: That is an important program and what we are doing now is trying to also help the polish regulator with the process of establishing those reactors and getting them into operation.
▶ 0:36:32Mr. Garrish: In addition, now we have other countries, bulgaria and slovakia, that are also interested in moving forward and what we would like to do, and we have a program we will establish at the department, to help these foreign countries with their certification so we can if at all possible not have to go through the same licensing rigor that we do in those countries to move forward, the polish government has indicated an interest in doing this.
▶ 0:37:00Mr. Garrish: It will be my view that what we would do for the U.S. is so not only the products but the regulatory structure that they came from. Which would help expedite the process. And that is moving forward well and we are going to make progress this year. Finally, the last issue is completing the fuel cycle and promoting industrialization. A lot has changed since 1982.
▶ 0:37:32Mr. Garrish: What we did at that time at yokum mountain was an example. -- yucca mountain was an example. We would bury it in its entirety. It is like buying a new car at the dealership, taking the car, driving it for a thousand miles, and then taking it to the junkyard and not using it again. It does not make a lot of sense.
▶ 0:37:57Mr. Garrish: We have a lot of energy in the fuel and a number of companies that have come to us and said they wanted to recycle these products and make them usable. This is an interesting idea, which sort of changes the equation as to how we move forward. We second thing that has happened is the need for industrialization of this community.
▶ 0:38:20Mr. Garrish: The thing that is amazing, when you look at if you take all parts of the nuclear process, starting with conversion and enrichment anti-conversion, recycling, and advanced manufacturing, and then couple that with the possibility of data centers and additional reactors, if co-located, it can save substantial money and be a viable product for the future.
▶ 0:38:46Mr. Garrish: This has led us to ask the states if they were interested in competing and requesting the ability to be designated as an area for this industrialization.
▶ 0:39:01Mr. Garrish: We have had 24 states get back to us with interest and I would say that there are 12 to 15 that were very serious and probably for form -- 45 that have -- four or five that have serious proposals now. There will be provided to us by april 1 and we will determine which are viable.
▶ 0:39:24Mr. Garrish: We will see if we can begin the process of reinvigorating the process of the fuel cycle. The final fuel stream is substantially less than what we were anticipating at yucca mountain so this is a major change in how we would approach this but a very positive development in very well received by the public.
▶ 0:39:49Mr. Garrish: So these are the real issues that I see before us with the president's executive orders. I see tremendous enthusiasm for nuclear that I have not seen before and right now we need to do most of all is basically seize the moment and really capitalize on this enthusiasm and to the extent possible get shovels in the ground.
▶ 0:40:15Mr. Garrish: I look forward to working with this committee on these problems , many of which will require legislation, so this would be a cooperative effort. The unique thing about this industry, this is a bipartisan effort and we have had tremendous cooperation between republicans and democrats so I am looking forward to a brighter three years for the rest of the administration to see if we can make progress. Thank you for the opportunity to appear today.
▶ 0:40:41Chair Lee: Thanks so much, assistant secretary garrish. >> I want to thank you for the opportunity to be here today. I want to thank you for the work you have done on these topics. My name is john wagner and I'm the director of the laboratory at the center for nuclear energy research and development. As you both mentioned in your opening remarks, we stand at an unprecedented inflection point in american nuclear energy.
▶ 0:41:13Chair Lee: For the first time in decades, market forces and federal policies have achieved remarkable alignment. The question no longer is whether america needs nuclear energy. It is how much, how quickly, and how to make it happen. That is exactly why the four executive orders the president signed are so important, because they address those questions.
▶ 0:41:41Chair Lee: Speaking from the perspective of idaho national laboratory, this call for action did not find us unprepared. Executive order 14 301 states the idaho national laboratory has principal responsibility for constructing and testing new reactor designs. We embrace that role enthusiastically. We are executing on it with partners.
▶ 0:42:05Chair Lee: Our dome, repurposed from the historic facility, will be complete and ready for its first demonstration reactor by the end of the month. Construction was accelerated by nearly a year specifically to me to meet the executive orders. The congress reactor -- kairos reactor will be installed next month.
▶ 0:42:32Chair Lee: It will defect -- support systems including the atari reactor experiments. Marvel, our test reactor, received approval for its safety analysis and is targeting an initial criticality as this year. Marvel is not just a reactor. It is a proof process, restoring new reactor authorization that had atrophied.
▶ 0:43:02Chair Lee: Under the pilot program, doe selected 10 companies, providing support. Companies broke ground at iml -- inl.
▶ 0:43:28Chair Lee: To address the needs of the moment we have established the nuclear energy launchpad, a 2000 plus acre site at the laboratory with options for other locations dedicated to enabling privately funded advanced nuclear prototypes so think first of their kind reactors, enrichment, recycling, and other emerging technologies. When the executive orders were signed, most people, including myself, were skeptical that three reactors could achieve criticality by july 4. I am no longer skeptical. I'm optimistic we will see it happen.
▶ 0:43:57Chair Lee: And with the full adherence to the gold standard of safety and security that the american public expects. I want to talk about executive order 14 302, directed action across the full fuel cycle. Inl has a critical role to play. The fuel line pilot program selected five companies for domestic fabrication. Inl provides direct technical support, leveraging our unique capabilities.
▶ 0:44:26Chair Lee: Today we are recycling highly enriched used fuel from our experimental reactor, down blending it to haleu and providing that fuel for their reactor and possibly others. We are also developing advanced processes to recycle other used fuels, providing additional domestic feedstock while commercial production skills up.
▶ 0:44:54Chair Lee: Our work extends across all four executive orders and a spectrum of companies and federal partners. I want to say inl is harnessing ai to accelerate implementation under the doe genesis mission. Our goal with our prometheus project is to demonstrate an autonomous reactor design, analyzed, manufactured, and operated by ai with minimal human intervention.
▶ 0:45:21Chair Lee: Our project falcon is working to compress materials, discovery, and qualification timelines from decades two years. Early results show the tools of already more than doubled our development speed for key tasks so these are not future promises. These are things happening today. But challenges remain and your continued support is essential. In my opinion we need to build new commercial power reactors at scale and get started now. I look forward to announcements in the coming days.
▶ 0:45:52Chair Lee: We need to continue building our domestic fuel cycle capabilities . The fuel cycle remains a crucial vulnerability and no commercial scale haleu production exists outside of russia and china. We need continued progress on regulatory efficiency, that we have seen good progress there. We need to update the nuclear waste policy act, which reflects priorities from four decades ago. In closing, the executive order sent an ambitious course.
▶ 0:46:21Chair Lee: Inl has a critical role and we are executing with urgency, rigor, and commitment to safety. We are grateful for the committee's leadership and look forward to your continued partnership. Thank you and I look forward to your questions.
▶ 0:46:37Chair Lee: Thanks so much, director wagoner. >> chairman lee, members of the committee, thank you for the opportunity to testify and for the bipartisan engagement and support of advanced nuclear energy. I'm the ceo and cofounder of kairos power, and advanced nuclear engineering and manufacturing company with operations in new mexico and a reactor demonstration campus.
▶ 0:47:06Chair Lee: Kairos means the right or opportune moment. That is where our nation stands. The U.S. faces a pivotal moment as electricity demand surges due to ai and re-short of manufacturing. The executive order signals the urgency of the demand. We must ensure our energy supply is reliable, affordable, and secure. It is vital that nuclear energy rise to meet its full potential.
▶ 0:47:32Chair Lee: Kairos power grew out of efforts to establish a technical basis for commercially attractive reactors using -- as the first advanced reactor mover with an rc permits and the only nuclear facility under active nrc construction we are happy to serve as the industry voice today. In less than a decade, kairos power has been turned into a company with employees across multiple states all focused on bringing safe and affordable nuclear energy to the U.S.
▶ 0:48:03Chair Lee: Electricity market as quickly as possible. Our reactor hybrid design ensures robust safety at low pressure, signifying safety related symptoms -- systems. Building on the pioneering legacy -- legacy with a focus on de-risking project delivery, we utilize an iterative -- design.
▶ 0:48:31Chair Lee: We are validating our technology delivery strategy through a series of nonnuclear test units that imminent -- demonstrate at scale. We are training our nuclear workforce with real experience running the largest systems built and operated. Our engineering test unit series is followed by our two demonstration reactors in oak ridge, tennessee. Hermes and hermes two.
▶ 0:48:58Chair Lee: Our goal is for hermes two to be the first reactor to supply -- kairos power has made investments in establishing in-house manufacturing and other critical capabilities to accelerate the process. This builds on lessons from our nonnuclear test program and our demonstration reactors to make complete deployment for our first customers, google and the tennessee valley authority.
▶ 0:49:26Chair Lee: Our agreement with google is the first virtual -- hermes two is the first reactor to be built under this agreement at our contract is the first ever nuclear power purchase agreement. For the combination of the development approach and commercial agreements we've established a pathway to cost certainty, proficiency and discipline to build and operate nuclear systems, and confidence in our ability to deliver future commercial plans on-time and on budget, which this industry needs.
▶ 0:49:53Chair Lee: Kairos power appreciates the support of the department of energy program. Kairos power has received $125 million from doe under our novel milestone based technology investment agreement. Modeled after the successful commercial orbital transportation services program from nasa, this agreement ties our federal funding to clearly defined, objectively verifiable milestones.
▶ 0:50:21Chair Lee: Kairos power is only paid when we deliver results that matter. Use of the contract structure allows kairos power to remain agile while ensuring accountability and efficiency for doe as it administers the investment of taxpayer dollars. Doe strategic investment in kairos power has provided the most value per taxpayer dollar to advanced nuclear power in the U.S. based on tangible progress we have made across technical, regulatory construction, and commercial for the past five years.
▶ 0:50:52Chair Lee: I urge this committee to enable and encourage the expanded use of milestone based strategic investments by doe to support kairos power and others to meet the vital call to action the moment demands. The message from washington is unambiguous. Nuclear energy is needed now. Electricity demand and concerns over cost, reliability, and energy independence create extraordinary opportunities.
▶ 0:51:17Chair Lee: The executive orders and bipartisan support from the committee represent critical federal commitments that will shape america energy future for decades to come. Kairos power is proud to be building the future with you. I want to thank the committee for holding this hearing and for the commitment to enabling the expansion of american nuclear energy. I look forward to her questions and working together on this mission.
▶ 0:51:41Chair Lee: We will now turn to rounds of questions. We will alternate between republicans and democrats in order of seniority subject to the earlybird rule. Mr. garrish, president trump's executive orders called for advanced reactor deployments and set forth aggressive timelines. We have had some discussions, including on the july 4 target date.
▶ 0:52:12Chair Lee: To achieve criticality in at least three test reactors under doe authorization. I am encouraged that the department of energy is making full use of its existing authorities and several companies are making progress under the deal we reactor and fuel line pilot programs.
▶ 0:52:36Chair Lee: First, can you provide an update on progress -- on the progress of these pilot programs and to what extent you remain on track to achieve that july 4 milestone? How is the department coordinating with the nuclear regulatory commission to make sure there is a transition pathway toward expedited commercial licensing?
▶ 0:53:04Mr. Garrish: Generally, for four reactors we have preliminary safety analysis completed and we are proceeding through the authorization stage where we will actually determine that they are safe to begin the process and turn on the reactors. That is proceeding now so I am hopeful that we should be able to do successful in meeting the july 4 deadline. There could be issues that come up on a couple of the reactors.
▶ 0:53:37Mr. Garrish: We have questions on fuel fabrication and we are working through those. It is a matter of ordinary manufacturing issues. There is nothing extraordinary about the problems, just we are problem solvers trying to get through the issues to make this work.
▶ 0:53:55Mr. Garrish: In terms of advanced reactors in general, the one thing that has happened as congress has appropriated substantial funds for the advanced reactor demonstration program is proceeding well and we have gone through some of the first trenches of funding.
▶ 0:54:21Mr. Garrish: The thing that is rewarding is to see tara power getting its construction license to proceed in a short period of time so we are making progress. You asked about a relationship with the nrc. We are operating on separate paths. We have our own system and they have their own system.
▶ 0:54:47Mr. Garrish: What they are doing is joining us in the process as observers and when a company expects to go commercial they will have conversations with them at the licensing process at the nuclear regulatory commission. There has been question about the cooperative -- cooperatively and whether we are separate enough.
▶ 0:55:14Mr. Garrish: The nuclear regulatory commission issued a memorandum of guidance which I have brought and it lays out the different methodologies and how the two work together. One of the things that the nrc will do is be observers in our process.
▶ 0:55:35Mr. Garrish: What I have urged our people and we are doing at the lab is when the nrc has additional information that they think is useful, I am urging us to provide that information to the -- to them in the process so this has been a fairly successful program between the two agencies.
▶ 0:55:58Mr. Garrish: There are approximately 12 people from the nuclear regulatory commission assigned now in detail to us -- and details to us to work under our program.
▶ 0:56:07Chair Lee: I appreciate that and we will receive that and that will be admitted into record. Dr. wagner, can you elaborate on recommendations made in this area and on your -- why the current authorization framework falls short and why you believe congress needs to clarify and expand the department of energy authority in this area?
▶ 0:56:41Dr. Wagner: The intent here of what I'm suggesting congress consider is not to circumvent the nuclear regulatory commission or undermine its commercial licensing role. The nrc remains the right body for commercial reactor licensing and nothing we are proposing changes that.
▶ 0:57:01Dr. Wagner: What we are asking is for clarity around what we consider a statutory gap in section 202 related to the definition of the carveout of demonstration nuclear reactors. The details are in my written testimony because that language can be interpreted in different ways and is, such that it could be interpreted that even private company reactors on a national laboratory would fall under nrc
▶ 0:57:33Dr. Wagner: Because it could be interpreted that any reactor is really being developed and demonstrated for commercial purposes and that is what we do. Clarifying that. We are seeking the committee to consider expanding that to be clear that if doe is demonstrating a reactor for their mission space and it is something unique related to that, like demonstrating the pairing of a small nuclear
▶ 0:58:03Dr. Wagner: Reactor with a data center, demonstrating how to manage those loads, that that could be also considered under the reauthorization. There is also ambiguity related to the department of defense authorities and applications that we would ask the committee to look at. So I understand there is details here that matter but that is my short answer.
▶ 0:58:25Chair Lee: It turns out there are details involved in nuclear energy and law related to it. Ranking member heinrich.
▶ 0:58:32Sen. Heinrich: I want to start with you, Dr. laufer. I want to ask you to go a little deeper into the milestone based caution approach that you outlined in terms of contracting and talk about how that helps you manage financial risk in these public-private partnerships and what value it might bring to other developers as well.
▶ 0:59:02Dr. Laufer: Kairos kairos so the contract that has is part of our award is milestone based and is a fixed support milestone so there are a series of 30 milestones in our contract that have fixed payments. Kairos has to demonstrate we have achieved those milestones and it is a straightforward process through the field office for processing payment.
▶ 0:59:29Dr. Laufer: From my perspective it is a structure modeled off a program that is efficient, low overhead from the doe perspective, providing a lot of accountability so things like the submission of an application. We tried to remove subjectivity there. When we install a test vessel, those are major milestones that are easy to verify so there's not a lot of subjectivity there.
▶ 0:59:57Dr. Laufer: They provide flexibility in how they are achieved. We have several fuel milestones. We have to deliver fuel to the site and they are along the way in terms of production. That is unquestionable in terms of the importance. The contracting milestones are nonspecific on how we reach that and for kairos we do in-house manufacturing so we were not sure whether we will be manufacturing fuel or procuring it.
▶ 1:00:23Dr. Laufer: The milestones are agnostic to that so provides flexibility and in this case we identified an opportunity after we were selected for the award to partner with los alamos national laboratory to reduce fuel. If we had to program that up front in a conventional contract we would not have had the flexibility. We would have had to pull money from other facilities to do that so it gives us flexibility which is valuable and removes overhead burden.
▶ 1:00:48Chair Lee: It is also resulted in a faster development cycle, correct?
▶ 1:00:54Dr. Laufer: Yes. It works with our cycle and allows us to be agile and change plans, and particular with the national laboratories that has been valuable. We have been able in the last year rapidly expand our activities on construction and manufacturing, taking advantage of new progress.
▶ 1:01:15Dr. Laufer: Those were not even known possibilities if you years ago so being able to have that flexibility because kairos controls where we spend the money to achieve the milestones, it allows us to make sure we are using on investment efficiently to achieve those milestones.
▶ 1:01:29Chair Lee: Let me pivot to haleu . How critical is the timely development of reliable domestic haleu supply for not just kairos but the entire broader advanced reactor sector?
▶ 1:01:43Dr. Laufer: The development of the supply chain for the high asked a -- high-assay l.a. You --l leu is imperative for us and others.
▶ 1:02:02Dr. Laufer: That order book needs to be the driver for commercial investment so we are working hard to develop that demand signal and then the support that doe has provided for initial demonstration programs so we have completed our contract with doe with the hermes reactor but for us our general strategy is to defer as long as possible to allow time for developing the infrastructure but that clock is ticking and there is urgency for others especially in terms of
▶ 1:02:35Dr. Laufer: That but for us in general having that partnership with doe from the early demonstration projects is critical and we are proud of the agreement with doe on that.
▶ 1:02:44Sen. Heinrich: Last year's appropriation bill supported the advanced reactor demonstration program. That is meant to catalyze private sector investment in deploying next-generation nuclear technologies. What is the department strategy to disperse this funding effectively?
▶ 1:03:05Mr. Garrish: Thank you for the question. There was a short deadline for indicating back to the congress as to what the plans were. We have internally gone through and determined what an appropriate allocation was and the amount we have determined that was available out of the 3.1 was 2.8 3 billion and the reason for the difference was
▶ 1:03:35Mr. Garrish: Some of the money was previously obligated and we are working that through. We are provided to the appropriators are suggested allocations the way we would make that money available. We have gone back to omb and provided that further review also and they are in the process of allowing us to make those allocations known and they will in the allocation process
▶ 1:04:06Mr. Garrish: Provide that money and in some timely fashion we believe over the next several months.
▶ 1:04:15Chair Lee: Senator cortez masto.
▶ 1:04:21Sen. Cortez Masto: Section three of the executive order calling for reinvigorating the nuclear industrial base required doe to coordinate on a recommended national policy to support the management of spent nuclear fuel and high-level waste. Can you provide details on what recommendations were submitted to the white house regarding the management of spent fuel?
▶ 1:04:46Mr. Garrish: The report that went -- we did make those reports to the white house and in essence it reflects the nuclear lifecycle innovation campuses.
▶ 1:05:03Mr. Garrish: We have gone out to the public and governors and states and asked them their interest in being one of the campuses and that was a lengthy request for information and in that we asked them to commit to a number of items and one of them would be the management of the disposition of spent fuel on the idea in this campuses was we wanted to get the value out of the spent fuel and therefore
▶ 1:05:34Mr. Garrish: They would use a recycling process and have resale of materials so the spent fuel stream would be reduced from having to bury the spent fuel the way it was anticipated with yucca mountain.
▶ 1:05:51Sen. Cortez Masto: I only have so much time. Where the campus is the only recommendation that came out of that report or were there other recommendations?
▶ 1:06:00Mr. Garrish: The industrialization and recycling aspect was the manner in which that was the answer that was made to the white house.
▶ 1:06:08Sen. Cortez Masto: With respect to the campuses, how is the department informing -- how are these campuses informing the department's next steps or is it too soon to tell?
▶ 1:06:20Mr. Garrish: We asked a number of questions to states and governors. They were to respond by april 1. We anticipate using some criteria to move forward and determine which ones are viable and based on that we would probably go into some form of mou with the states as a first step moving towards state legislation and federal legislation to actually make this a stable long-term program.
▶ 1:06:51Sen. Cortez Masto: Is it still the administration posture in opposition to yucca mountain? That is still the position of the administration and no funding requested for yucca mountain?
▶ 1:07:03Mr. Garrish: The president's position has not changed. Dr. wagner, I noticed in your statement you talked about the need to update the nuclear waste policy act. What did he mean by that?
▶ 1:07:16Dr. Wagner: As assistant secretary garrish noted, the nuclear waste policy act was initially enacted in 1982. A lot has changed, including the concept of nuclear lifecycle innovation campuses and so I would say -- I will not speak for the department of energy but they look at the entire strategy .
▶ 1:07:43Dr. Wagner: This is reflected in the nuclear lifecycle innovation campuses and that is not consistent with the way the nuclear waste policy act was structured. One other key aspect is the way the nuclear waste policy act is structured, there is really no policy incentive for recycling so that all needs to be looked at carefully.
▶ 1:08:07Dr. Wagner: I would hope that the request for information responses from this activity the department is doing would be useful information to inform how exactly the waste policy act should be modified but I feel strongly modifications are required. I think it is going to -- we need to move quickly but we also need to be thoughtful in how this would be changed.
▶ 1:08:31Sen. Cortez Masto: You think modifications are available now because of emerging or new technology available to us?
▶ 1:08:38Dr. Wagner: There are advancements in your cycling technology but a lot has changed as well in the sense of now we are talking for the last several decades, we have been flat in nuclear energy essentially and now we are talking about quadrupling nuclear power by 2050 so we also have a different future in front of us that also was not for seen in that time.
▶ 1:09:03Sen. Cortez Masto: To the two of you, do you see a distinction in how you're going to manage the waste from these advanced reactors versus the traditional technology? For waste? To me, there are two different issues.
▶ 1:09:22Sen. Cortez Masto: I understand with the advanced technology or advanced reactors it produces a different waste stream consideration than the old technology but I'm curious how you -- I do think -- we still have a waste issue with both. How do we manage that?
▶ 1:09:41Mr. Garrish: Each of those technologies is different in the handling must be done differently the traditional spent fuel. We are in the process of analyzing how that is to be done, but each of those end products have value and we are attempting to make sure we get the value from the products.
▶ 1:10:06Sen. Cortez Masto: I know my time is up. I cannot stress enough this is the issue we deal with first, how we address the waste so we do not end up where we are today with an old policy from the 1980's and we are still addressing the waste in this country.
▶ 1:10:25Sen. Cortez Masto: This is a priority for us to move forward with nuclear technology and I'm hopeful that there is a priority to address the waste stream on both technologies. So we have a future for this country.
▶ 1:10:41Mr. Garrish: We understand and we will have to come back to congress for legislation to do the modifications on the nuclear waste policy act consistent with the states that we deal with and how they would like to proceed.
▶ 1:10:55Sen. Cortez Masto: I know my time is up. Thank you.
▶ 1:11:02Sen. Hyde-Smith: I want to thank the members for being here and coming to help us out here with the witnesses. The trump administration has made clear that the nuclear power should be highly considered source of baseload power and mississippi, the state I represent, is home to grand gulf nuclear station, the largest single unit reactor in the country.
▶ 1:11:29Sen. Hyde-Smith: The nuclear regulatory commission is currently undertaking the process to renew an existing early site permit there, which can make it an ideal location for a future advanced reactor.
▶ 1:11:43Sen. Hyde-Smith: I continue to hear concerns about cost overrun risk being a factor outside the project control and these issues range from nuclear regulatory changes workforce to supply chain constraints to many things and in the decade since the united states became a leader in commercial nuclear energy we have seen a reduction in nuclear manufacturing capabilities and secure nuclear supply chains.
▶ 1:12:15Sen. Hyde-Smith: To the panel, what are your thoughts on how we can work to reassure the nuclear supply chain in a way that would decrease the cost overruns and construction disruptions, issues that might deter you -- utilities and developers from building new reactors in the united states?
▶ 1:12:35Mr. Garrish: The question is one of the issues, one of the stumbling blocks going forward we need to deal with. One of the issues I think we have to do is we have to incentivize on budget, on time activities from the industry that is building these reactors.
▶ 1:12:58Mr. Garrish: Currently, there is little incentive to reduce costs and we have other programs at the department -- let me give you an example where we have had costly overruns in terms of how much it costs to rehab a particular area and one that comes to mind is rocky flats in colorado.
▶ 1:13:20Mr. Garrish: Rocky flats in colorado, we were able to reduce the ultimate cost of that activity through incentivizing contractors to make the necessary -- take the necessary actions to be on time and on budget. What we have to do is the same with nuclear new build.
▶ 1:13:41Mr. Garrish: It takes a while for the cost to be able so we can have enough production that we can reduce costs and manufacturing but I believe we need to have a program that will incentivize keeping this on budget and we are working diligently now with the industry to see what methods can be undertaken. There are pieces of legislation out now currently before the congress on the question on overruns.
▶ 1:14:11Mr. Garrish: And I understand one of the ways to deal with it is spend more money. I am not convinced we need to do that. I think what we need to do is provide incentives to make this operation -- make the incentives for staying on budget, not providing additional methodology for overruns. Dr.
▶ 1:14:42Mr. Garrish: Dust
▶ 1:14:43Dr. Wagner: For any energy technology pretty much any technology period, and as you rightly framed in the question, we have atrophied in our supply chain, in our ability to build these things, our workforce -- just about every aspect that we need, particularly for building large nuclear reactors.
▶ 1:15:09Dr. Wagner: We saw that play out in the vocal experience where the cost escalated from an initial estimate around $14 million over $30 billion read each utility at each agility board does not want to have that situation play out in their system.
▶ 1:15:25Dr. Wagner: So we do have to find mechanisms like assistant secretary gerrish talked about in terms of how do we do it on budget but we also know when you're doing first of kind you run in first of kind issues that you did not anticipate and therefore you may have cost overruns.
▶ 1:15:43Dr. Wagner: I'm not an expert in how to address that aspect that I do know from talking to utility leaders and private company leaders that utility boards, public utility commissions, would like some assurance to the extent possible that the ratepayer still end up with a extra cost related to the first of a kind build. And we can't get to and of kind cost measures until we do the first one. And so that is the situation we find ourselves in for quite a while.
▶ 1:16:13Sen. Hyde-Smith: We don't know what we don't know. Thank you so much. >> this is a fundamental issue for new deployment and I would say the path forward needs to have a bridge to that commercial viability that understands the risk first of the kind deployments and I would say through doe's investments has gone ability for understanding where things may be going in the wrong direction and being able to make multiple options, multiple pathways and make
▶ 1:16:44Sen. Hyde-Smith: Decisions. We need to have multiple strategies in place but not everyone is when ultimately be successful. So being able to execute dispersed projects well and translate that execution into a predictable and repeatable cost for future projects. That is the key. Reducing the capital investment for the early projects is fundamental.
▶ 1:17:03Sen. Hyde-Smith: And being able to fully leverage doe's strategic investments to provide that accountability and really only the projects that have that viability, commercial viability to get to that public -- sorry, private financing vehicle, that is where we need to get to because we need to build that bridge across that divide. Sen. hyde-smith I have second question that I will submit.
▶ 1:17:28Chair Lee: Thank you. Senator gallego. Supper
▶ 1:17:39Supsen. Gallego: One of the largest producers for 30 years and arizona state was selected by doe last year as a research party for the marble program. I want to make sure I get to my questions. Recently, I was part of a bill to accelerate investment and completion of new commercial nuclear reactors by minimizing cost overrun risks.
▶ 1:18:08Supsen. Gallego: I look forward to working on more bipartisan nuclear efforts without undermining community input and safety. The first question is for Mr. garrish,, during her confirmation process, I appreciated our conversation in my office run smr's which have great potential especially places like arizona.
▶ 1:18:33Supsen. Gallego: I've heard communities that don't want -- looking for creative solutions partnering with military bases on advanced nuclear projects. Executive order on nuclear for national security includes similar mandate by 2028. I shared that desire. I have some questions from the implementation of this executive order.
▶ 1:18:56Supsen. Gallego: Given the department of army -- working with the gle and authorization process, how are you supporting identification of record deployment sites and what outreach is being done surrounding communities that may be interested or may not be interested?
▶ 1:19:09Mr. Garrish: The department of the army has a janus program that you are familiar with which is really their entire program to basically establish nuclear as a source of electricity for military bases.
▶ 1:19:28Mr. Garrish: We are cooperating with them and right now in the case of one of the micros, they are working with us so we can authorize it and potentially they would authorize it following our initial activity. We generally provide and through Dr.
▶ 1:19:49Mr. Garrish: Wegner's people at the laboratory, our folks in the laboratory people provide most of the expertise that is needed for the army to do the actual authorization. I anticipate this program will grow as they indicate their needs for additional activity around it.
▶ 1:20:15Sen. Gallego: Is it a realistic goal at this point?
▶ 1:20:19Mr. Garrish: I --
▶ 1:20:26Sen. Gallego: Just out of curiosity.
▶ 1:20:26Mr. Garrish: We are going to be able to take one of the rectors in the pilot program, it will be available for their use immediately. This is going to move fairly quickly. It is not just going critical, we have to actually produce power. We've got to go the next step. But they basically ready to go fairly soon.
▶ 1:20:49Sen. Gallego: My next question is for Dr. laufer. Your company has led advanced nuclear technology and rapidly deploying nuclear is what the arc act aims to be helpful. How would it help foster innovation in the nuclear space and improve doe as an industry partner and how else can congress work with industry to get new technologies out the door fast?
▶ 1:21:18Dr. Laufer: My perspective is that the lifecycle from demonstration to deployment is the key area where federal investment provides the biggest opportunity. I do think -- we have to look at the full spectrum of incentives and programs and make sure they all work together in a consistent way.
▶ 1:21:41Dr. Laufer: I think the act addresses issues for that early fleet deployment and that allows us to develop confidence with our commercial activities. I would say those policies have to be complementary with the demonstrations. For us, it is adjusting issues a little further down the road.
▶ 1:22:01Dr. Laufer: We are focused right now on the execution with the cost certainty for the demonstrations but I think building that with for companies that each step in that process is crucial in providing that predictability for the commercial fleet implement and building that order is key. Thank you for the support.
▶ 1:22:19Sen. Gallego: There is a real bipartisan want which I think has been missing for quite a while. I think there is more critical mass of support for nuclear energy both smr's traditional and anything else that comes on the line. A perfect opportunity to really move to put as much nuclear power we can on the grid. Look forward to working more on this in the future.
▶ 1:22:47Chair Lee: Senator barrasso. Thank you for holding the important meeting and thank you to my colleagues for the comment he just made on the same topic. My first question is to garrish secretary garrish, thank you for the work you're doing. I think nuclear energy is important. As a nation we needed now more than ever. The rise in energy demand that we are facing in the united states is daunting.
▶ 1:23:11Chair Lee: Much of the demand comes from feeding the race of new technologies like artificial intelligence, advanced computing. The race for ai fundamentally is a race for energy. Whoever secures affordable, reliable, and electric power is going have a big head start and the advantage in the race for ai . Nuclear energy has to play key role.
▶ 1:23:31Chair Lee: I am proud of the progress we have made so far with this next breakthrough for the technology and that is why two years ago we forward with legislation I established to help secure our future fuel production. The advanced reactor demonstration program is also key to supporting this next generation of nuclear technology.
▶ 1:23:53Chair Lee: Just this month the nrc approved the first construction permit ever for commercial, non-light power reactor and I'm proud this first of its kind technology found a home in wyoming. The atrium reactor would be the first ever commercial scale next-generation nuclear power plant held in this country. The reactor is critical to the development of nuclear power in america.
▶ 1:24:18Chair Lee: I believe in the future wyoming projects like this will provide reliable and affordable baseload power for americans. Just to ask you, Mr. secretary, your thoughts on how important is the wyoming project and what does that mean for the future construction of advanced reactors?
▶ 1:24:33Mr. Garrish: Senator, the program is really the leading edge I think of what can happen with advanced reactors. So we are very pleased got the construction license. They are moving forward in a very expeditious pace. I think we're going to learn a lot from the process. The contribution they have made to advance reactors is significant and I'm looking forward to success.
▶ 1:25:04Sen. Barrasso: President trump announced an executive order last mate that focuses on the federal government accelerating the development and export of U.S. designed advanced nuclear technologies. The goal to ensure the effectiveness of our military, and hence the export of american nuclear technologies around the world. Currently russia and china are rapidly deploying these technologies internationally.
▶ 1:25:29Sen. Barrasso: We partially address this in the 2024 bill with prohibiting russian uranium import act signed into law that banned imports of russian uranium and was essential in providing the market certainty needed to expand american uranium production. Right now russia and china still account for about 95% of nuclear reactors currently under construction. The energy dominance financing program is tasked with helping americans dominate this space through loan financing projects.
▶ 1:26:02Sen. Barrasso: What milestones do you plan to achieve this year in these financing projects and what types of nuclear-related projects are you considering?
▶ 1:26:09Mr. Garrish: Two I would like to bring your attention to, one is basically the domestic enrichment work we have done here in the united states thanks to the appropriations from the congress. We have now earned -- are in the process of finalizing domestic enrichment to the amount of $2.7 billion and that is going to make the U.S. enrichment available to the U.S.
▶ 1:26:37Mr. Garrish: Without needing to have the russians, which are banned starting in january 2028. The second point on overseas sales of our products. When we get their products licensed in the united states, there is no limit really in my judgment to what we can do overseas. One of the things we are doing is putting in program where we not only sell a product that we sell the licensing at the same time.
▶ 1:27:04Mr. Garrish: In other words, I would like to get the people in the countries that are going to receive these reactors, their regulators, we would like to have them understand what we do in the united states and the gold standard we bring to regulation and to transfer that over to the countries receiving the reactor. We think that will expedite the possibility of getting these reactors sold around the world.
▶ 1:27:31Sen. Barrasso: Dr. wagner, mind reactors must still be converted. The conversion to uranium is complex and requires extensive infrastructure and expertise. We have heard repeatedly the U.S. does not have domestic capacity to convert uranium. This is a fundamental bottleneck I believe to achieving dominance in nuclear energy.
▶ 1:28:01Sen. Barrasso: How can the federal government partner better with private industry to accelerate the domestic conversion capacity and what is your biggest? Need and private industry? ?
▶ 1:28:09Dr. Wagner: I want to thank you for the security act and the work you have done in this space. Fuel cycle is still our most critical vulnerability in my opinion. Secretary garrish talked about the 2.7 billion dollars and related to enrichment. That is super important.
▶ 1:28:31Dr. Wagner: One of the aspects that is -- has not gotten as much attention is the other parts of the fuel cycle I think you are alluding to the fact first you mine uranium then youmill uranium. The only one we have is in utah and the capacity is far less than what we would need. Then after youmill, you convert it and then did convert it.
▶ 1:29:02Dr. Wagner: Does other parts besides enrichment need more attention as well. As an example we have one conversion facility operating in this country and it has capacity up to about one third of what we actually need. It is a rather old facility as well. Conversion, d conversion, and milling as well as mining all need attention.
▶ 1:29:24Chair Lee: Senator murkowski.
▶ 1:29:30Sen. Murkowski: Thank you. Welcome to the committee, gentlemen. Secretary garrish, always good to see you. You have familiarity with some of the important legislation that has receded today's hearing where we have been able to successfully do some things when it comes to advancing our nuclear opportunities. I led the energy act 2020.
▶ 1:29:59Sen. Murkowski: The nuclear energy leadership act to establish the availability program, lay the groundwork for the advanced reactor deployment. Doe has made initial production awards, an important step, so from your perspective, what practical steps does the department of energy working with congress need to take to build on that and to ensure that fuel supply does not become this pacing challenge for deployments
▶ 1:30:30Sen. Murkowski: ? I am very interested in our opportunity to see my corrector pilot at the air force base. What do we need to do to ensure that fuel supply is not going to be our challenge here?
▶ 1:30:43Mr. Garrish: I believe the question of enrichment is one of the most important ones we have to face. We have been able, because of the congressional action, and the appropriations to begin that process, we are right now in the process of doing milestones for enrichment. I think when that gets done, which will be over the next several months, we will begin to build facilities here.
▶ 1:31:12Mr. Garrish: And that will lead us to not having to worry about the russian imports at all. If in fact that is a long-term problem, we do have some banks of materials that are available that could be allocated. And on top of that, we have the defense act which could help assure there is no companies that would be without the uranium they need. I did want to say one thing about the micro reactors.
▶ 1:31:42Mr. Garrish: The work being done in idaho by john wagner's people in terms of authorizing these micro reactors, these are perfect products for alaska. The thing that we really need to do is look for opportunities in alaska to demonstrate them and be -- in these remote areas, this is really the answer to a lot of the communities looking for.
▶ 1:32:11Mr. Garrish: They don't have to transport the diesel. They've got long-term, reliable power. I think that is what we need to work toward.
▶ 1:32:19Sen. Murkowski: I appreciate you just volunteering that because this is something we are looking at clearly, not only from the purposes of how it can provide for national security needs with regards to our military installations but, to your point, to some of our very remote communities that are diesel-based. Right now looking at the price of diesel and it is not good here.
▶ 1:32:47Sen. Murkowski: Quite honestly, we should not be powering our communities on diesel power generation in the year 2026 anyway. We are quite anxious for this. Dr. wagner, following on secretary garrish's observation and specifically to alaska, what does inl need now in terms of capabilities for the testing for the fuel qualification for the systems validations?
▶ 1:33:18Sen. Murkowski: It sounds like they are hurrying things up within the department here as we address the fuel side of things. What you need on the testing?
▶ 1:33:28Dr. Wagner: Thank if the question and also for the partnership that we have had with a variety of representatives including yourself. It has been a very positive relationship in the sense that it has helped us understand what are the parties for these remote communities? So as we are developing these technologies, we have that knowledge in mind.
▶ 1:33:56Dr. Wagner: We are not a hammer looking for a nail, so to speak. We are well informed and it is because of those engagements. In terms of what we need, I included my written testimony, we have a lot of capabilities that exist at the laboratory and that are being developed, but these infrastructure is aging. It is at capacity.
▶ 1:34:19Dr. Wagner: In fact, we are really stressing the capacity of what we are able to do at this moment when there's so much interest and all the different testing, be it fuel testing, testing under various conditions, reactor testing, and so forth, recycling -- demonstrating those capabilities. There are a number of infrastructure challenges we face every day and we welcome any help with resources to support that. Our most recent challenge has been fuel fabrication capability for the initial reactors.
▶ 1:34:48Dr. Wagner: You may know, initially, if you're going to demonstrate a reactor, there may not be a commercial capability. Oftentimes there is not. Once you've been able to demonstrate that and go to commercial, then you can go to commercial fabrication. We are seeking to develop something called the advanced nuclear fabrication laboratory, number one on my list.
▶ 1:35:12Sen. Murkowski: I appreciate that because we're looking at appropriations now and how we make sure that all this from the agency to what we are doing with international labs, to help facilitate that on the ground weather in alaska or run the country. Thank you.
▶ 1:35:27Chair Lee: You will be happy to hear there are some changes coming on this planet that I think are going to be incredibly significant. Dr. wagner they want to talk about this but we are going to turn the switch on the smr very soon, small module reactor, which is the milestone in a change in the way energy is going to be delivered on this planet. But not long behind that is going to be a micro reactor.
▶ 1:35:56Chair Lee: That may be of interest to some of her outback places. We don't have an exact date yet, Dr. wagner? Would you care to make a prediction?
▶ 1:36:10Dr. Wagner: We predict july 4. Of this year. I would like to clarify those won't be power reactors that can be admittedly deployed to alaska, but going critical is the first step in that pathway.
▶ 1:36:27Chair Lee: It doesn't take and imagination to realize what that is going to do to the delivery of power. Not just in the united states, but on the entire planet. Again, the smr is a huge step. The micro is going to be even larger than that. Incredibly important hearing we are having here today because there aren't that many people here, don't take that to mean there isn't an interest. We have lots of stuff going on this morning.
▶ 1:36:56Chair Lee: It is getting toward the end of the week. There is a lot of interest in this. I think most americans aren't fully dialed in with the fact the renaissance that nuclear is having in the united states and for that matter even more so I think on the planet. We had the unfortunate incident three-mile island which set us a generation back because people were afraid of it even though no one got injured or killed.
▶ 1:37:27Chair Lee: It scared people and the result of that was we really lost a generation. That is getting behind us very quickly right now. For a number of different reasons. Number one, I think the industry has had such a safe history since then that people realize they overreacted to the three-mile island. Secondly, we have got a demand on this planet that is staggering, really.
▶ 1:37:50Chair Lee: First of all, you have a war that started on a continent that really changed the way the european continent is gathering energy. And it isn't going to be from russia now or tomorrow. It will be a long time before anybody looks back to russia. By the time they look back, the type of energy that they want to sell are probably going to be not that much used anymore.
▶ 1:38:18Chair Lee: The next thing is we are getting these huge estimates as to the kind of energy we are going to need because of ai. I don't understand that. I know probably you guys do. I don't understand how ai consumes that kind of electricity but it is staggering what it is going to do to the demand for electricity here in the united states and, for that matter, around the world. So with that, we are proud in idaho to host the iml. Dr. wagner does a great job. We have a long proud history.
▶ 1:38:49Chair Lee: I brag all the time 1951, we generated the first electricity by nuclear power. We have the first three lightbulbs in a museum that we lit in december 1951. We built 52 reactors since then. Idaho is proud to host the flagship lab in the world, really, on nuclear energy.
▶ 1:39:13Chair Lee: As we go forward, there is all the different aspects of this that are going to need attention. And they are going to start at the iml. Fuel, certainly is something you put into again, the war has changed dramatically where we are. That whole industry shifted to russia. We are bringing it back.
▶ 1:39:34Chair Lee: Senator barrasso is certainly a leader on this with others of us who understood that we have got to be able to produce our own fuel and distribute it. With that, I do want to talk about the most recent thing I and others have done with your help. And that is on the financial risks that are involved when you have new technology coming down the pipe.
▶ 1:40:02Chair Lee: We all know that with nuclear power, there is -- there are risks that are different and essentially higher than in other industries. And as we all know in a free market system like we have in america, investors are risk averse. So they want the least risk possible. Now we, the united states government, way back when waited into that when we talked about guaranteed loans said that sort of thing.
▶ 1:40:32Chair Lee: Really the only thing that can move us forward because the investors were reluctant. But now with the new technology, we have another risk, and that is cost overruns. Because you're dealing with something you have not tried before you try it and it doesn't work and it is very expensive. So we have developed the arc act. I think all three of you are probably familiar with the arc act. I will start with you since you are from idaho, Dr. wagner.
▶ 1:41:03Chair Lee: Tell me your thoughts on the arc act and what benefit you think it will have for the industry.
▶ 1:41:07Dr. Wagner: Thank you for that and this kind words we have received and support we have received from you. It is wonderful. We appreciate it much. As you put your finger on the cost overrun risk is really the most significant barrier to utility investment in first of a kind technology but in particular commercial reactor.
▶ 1:41:31Dr. Wagner: The tale of vogel which I think is now a major success in terms of demonstrating that system and we were able to build ed, going from an estimated $14 million to over $30 billion is not anything any utility executive wants to experience. I am sure for their board that they work for or the public utility commission.
▶ 1:41:54Sen. Risch: Or their customers.
▶ 1:41:57Dr. Wagner: That is the most significant thing that holds back utilities and others from building new large nuclear power plants. And of course we are not going to drive down the cost curve which we think we absolutely can do and have confidence in that until somebody does the first one and the second one and the third one.
▶ 1:42:17Dr. Wagner: And so while I am not a financial expert in terms of the right mechanisms, it is that cost overrun risk that we routinely here as the most significant pediment and that is of course what your arc act addresses. I appreciate your leadership on that.
▶ 1:42:37Mr. Garrish: Overruns are the one we need to really resolve. We appreciate your efforts to look at legislative fix is to that. Thank you for doing that. The utilities are all reluctant to be the first ones actually order a because they know with the potential for overruns, negative reaction on the funding could result in a stock-price problem for them.
▶ 1:43:06Mr. Garrish: And so what we have got to do is figure out a way to incentivize utilities and the manufacturers and constructors, incentivize on budget and low-cost arrangements. Right now there is little incentive for them necessarily to do this. And the problem is repeatability. We will get there.
▶ 1:43:32Mr. Garrish: The question is, how do we do that in a fashion that doesn't take so long, so many units have to be produced before we arrive at that point. Your efforts by the congress I think are very important. And we will look for ways to do that in the department and look forward to working with you on that.
▶ 1:43:52Sen. Risch: The other thing that struck me in recent years and I've been doing this a while is the new actors that are entering the industry. Because of the advances we have made with the smr, obviously come at the micro coming down the pike. There are a lot of people that want a piece of that. There are risk takers who are entering and there's a constant stream in my office.
▶ 1:44:22Sen. Risch: We have never had that over the years I have been doing that. Doctor, you're up.
▶ 1:44:30Dr. Laufer: Thank you for your work on the arc act. I think it addresses a key cap private investment has its struggles with, particularly for early fleet deployment. I would say one thing which I think it's important, when I look at the structure of different federal investments and programs, I think the incentives are really important to make sure they are fully aligned with the commercial goals of where we need to take for industry.
▶ 1:44:59Dr. Laufer: Particularly, not just delivering the projects but being able to have the right incentive to drive down costs. So particularly we look at the costs for early deployments for the fleet, making sure there is flexibility to allow the time to take, to find this opportunities is very important.
▶ 1:45:18Dr. Laufer: I think making sure those risks are protected against but also making sure they are aligned so the inherent risk and early projects doesn't end up -- you don't end up with two inch contingency. If you have a lot of contingency on the costs, you may hit your cost targets but cost may still be too high.
▶ 1:45:40Dr. Laufer: Making sure all of the programs work together to allow demonstrations to be done with focus and excellent execution is key. Just making sure -- I think it is possible and the arc act plays an important role in that.
▶ 1:45:53Sen. Risch: That is an important observation for it I will closer but I would be remiss if I did not mention the other had I wear as the chairman of the foreign relations committee, have a constant parade of people from other countries who are excited about nuclear and out shopping. We do the best to be a salesman for U.S. technology. We compete with the russians, chinese, french as everybody knows.
▶ 1:46:21Sen. Risch: The russians and the chinese are voracious competitors because they don't have a capitalist system like we do. All of the capitol in the country is controlled by the government and they don't have the same risk aversion that private sector does. It is a heavy lift but I can tell you this, the reputation of the U.S. nuclear industry is not lost on the world. They want to do business with us first.
▶ 1:46:48Sen. Risch: But on the other hand, the sign of a cheaper product often drives them away. Senator daines?
▶ 1:46:57Sen. Daines: Thank you. Just to pile on the earlier conversation on micro reactors come as we think about distributive model and set of command-and-control utility model, distributed model comes from the transmission issues we face which is one of the big barriers to delivering energy.
▶ 1:47:25Sen. Daines: I was in nigeria after the munich security conference and nigeria has 87 million people without electricity. It is the most underserved, the most people in the world with no electricity. By the way, nigeria is the third largest country in the world by population in 2050 behind india, china, and nigeria.
▶ 1:47:46Sen. Daines: So if you can abide micro reactors perhaps with starling mini, which I have one of those might pick pickup in montana because when you drive around out in the middle of nowhere, sometimes it is nice to stay connected when needed. When you take the ability to put starling mini and reactors, suddenly you have solved a problem. Ices command-and-control is in nigeria now.
▶ 1:48:17Sen. Daines: Think about what we can do to take people out of poverty, reducing the risk of radicalization with some of these groups. It solves a lot of problems. >> don't tell my staff about starlingmini.
▶ 1:48:38Sen. Daines: Montana's had restrictions are prohibited nuclear energy development in the state, limiting our ability to maximize our energy potential. However in 2021, montana took an important step forward bypassing house built 273, repealing outdated restrictions and transferring nuclear project approval to the state legislature. Montana opened the door for the deployment of nuclear energy.
▶ 1:49:04Sen. Daines: Expanding nuclear capacity both in montana and across our great nation is critical to maintaining a resilient electric grid for the distribution of firm, dispatch of all electricity. We need more baseload power. Today antenna still does not have any nuclear generation sites.
▶ 1:49:26Sen. Daines: Trump administration is working to aggressively reinvigorate the nuclear energy industry and quadruple our energy -- nuclear energy specific capacity by 2050. Secretary garrish, as we work to restore dominance, what role can advance nuclear like smaller module reactors, the smr, micro reactors, fuel recycling plate in montana and what needs to happen to accelerate that deployment?
▶ 1:49:56Mr. Garrish: Smaller reactors have the ability to be adaptable to not as dense population centers, so it could be very helpful in places like montana. I wanted to go back to one comment you made about international. It was very important.
▶ 1:50:18Mr. Garrish: We had an energy minister come into the department from overseas, I won't mention the country, and he was very interested in micro because he wanted to move them out but usually to his country and see how this would work. He had his country divided into seven areas. And a military base in each one. He wanted a micro in each location. I thought, this is the start of a complete change in how we think about electricity.
▶ 1:50:44Mr. Garrish: More distributed and in places like montana, this could be particularly useful.
▶ 1:50:52Sen. Daines: By the way, I know we live in the middle of nowhere and we love that by the way so -- but, where we have coal strip right now which someday we could have nuclear complementary kind of power, while we are in the middle of nowhere, that powerplant serves a large capacity of populations throughout the northwest. One of the problem sometimes being on the west coast because they don't like coal generated electrons to be nice no matter where they come from but that is a different discussion.
▶ 1:51:23Sen. Daines: It can serve both the issue with rural but also talking about a massive power generation center there in eastern montana. I want to switch gears and talk about coal strip. Between 2015-2020, the united states retired an average of 11 gigawatts of coal-fired capacity each year.
▶ 1:51:49Sen. Daines: This past week and I was in the netherlands, massive part of the chip supply chain. You talk to the folks in the netherlands and they made poor energy choices in 2006 britt germany did the same thing britt decommissioning nuclear plants and coal-fired plants from not having the baseload capacity. Absolutely one of the key constraints. The netherlands are struggling about 1%. Germany, about flat.
▶ 1:52:18Sen. Daines: Had they made bitter energy strategic choices 20 years ago, they would be in a very different position they are today. We can't let that happen in the united states. We saw retirements of the baseload power. Eroded power at a time when demand has continued to grow. Most estimates that we will need 50% 80% more energy in the next 25 years that we consume today.
▶ 1:52:44Sen. Daines: In montana, the coal strip powerplant, one of the largest facilities in the west, has been critical for affordable resilient energy and a key economic for the region. I'm not opposed to intermittent sources of energy. But I will tell you, high pressure systems move in, temperatures plummet. What happens when high pressure systems come in? The wind stops blowing.
▶ 1:53:09Sen. Daines: So at a time of maximum load on the system, you've got minimal intermittent energy supply. If it weren't for coal strip, baseload power, god bless coal, we would literally have life situations in montana. They bailed out the grid at that moment for what it is worth. At its peak, coal strip can generate 2000 megawatts of electricity across all four units supporting high-paying jobs, local businesses.
▶ 1:53:38Sen. Daines: The shutdowns of units one and two in 2020 marked a significant loss of capacity and economic activity. Units three and four continue to operate today with a combined capacity of megawatts of dependable, reliable, god bless baseload power. Together with the associated mind coal strips supports 2000 jobs not to mention the tax base it provides for our state for these funding for education across montana.
▶ 1:54:07Sen. Daines: The recent study conducted in 2025, god bless idaho, found advance nuclear technologies could be deployed if the coal strip site leveraging infrastructure, workforce, significant transmission capacity including the north plains connector. Adding nuclear capacity coal strip would support an additional 680 jobs according to the study. Dr.
▶ 1:54:31Sen. Daines: Wagner, peace be to the feasibility for advanced nuclear at or around coal strip and how projects like this could help the united states complete -- compete globally and support our long-term 2050 goals?
▶ 1:54:46Dr. Wagner: Thank you for the question. Actually, you're quite informed of the program study on coal strip relative to viability of nuclear. And from that study that you referred to, it looks like an excellent choice to add to the capability of the generation at coal strip. And possibly long-term maybe replaces coal and maybe a dozen. We are seeing this across the country.
▶ 1:55:14Dr. Wagner: Coal strip is a great example of where you've already got -- sorry, you already have a facility there, already have a site, already have particularly transmission infrastructure that connects the site in energy intelligent workers already there as well.
▶ 1:55:31Dr. Wagner: The study also estimated some 60% to 74% of the current workers there would be directly clickable to working if a powerplant was constructed there. And so it is another example -- not in your state but it is in wyoming we have a similar situation with the existing infrastructure transitioning to nuclear.
▶ 1:55:58Dr. Wagner: So whether it adds to the coal site or it ultimately replaces coal, either way, it is more power, more baseload power as you mentioned. I think it is an outstanding candidate.
▶ 1:56:09Sen. Daines: Right now my last question is, we are in this race with china and russia not just to deploy advanced nuclear but to secure fuel supply chains that make it even possible. The department of energy's $2.7 billion investment in domestic enrichment is an important step toward rebuilding capacity right here at home.
▶ 1:56:33Sen. Daines: Secretary garrish, how can we expand relationships with partner countries like kazakhstan and american enrichment capabilities in a way that reinforces our national security while still leveraging trusted allies and avoiding new supply chain risks?
▶ 1:57:00Mr. Garrish: The first thing we have to do is assure that we can do it ourselves. As the number one priority. I think the 2.7 billion dollars that congress appropriated ended that for domestic enrichment was really the first step. Beyond that, we do need other countries nuclear for enrichment. We will still import.
▶ 1:57:32Mr. Garrish: We will also need uranium, so they're going to the needs of that. But we need to make sure these are reliable countries and that we have sufficient supply here in the united states to make sure we are adequately supplied. I support what you're suggesting on that front. I look forward to working with congress to make sure we can have an adequate supply of the fuel we need.
▶ 1:57:58Sen. Daines: We will put on our foreign relations have for a moment. Work the trump administration has done in opening up the tripp corridor between marsha shot in armenia is relook what is turkey or georgia getting the black sea as one said, central asia is the wine bottle.
▶ 1:58:28Sen. Daines: The -- this administration has removed the court that flow of natural resources oil, gas, critical minerals -- we talked about uranium -- moving westward incentive prior to the north, the russians or the east to the chinese, this is probably one of the most under told stories going on right now geopolitically in washington and it is a credit to this administration forcing a vision and the importance, especially with the nuclear supply chain of
▶ 1:59:01Sen. Daines: Kazakhstan.
▶ 1:59:01Chair Lee: Those of you who participated, thank you so much. It is an exciting time for you and your industry with things moving the way they are and it is a critical time really for nuclear industry because what we do right now is when he set the stage for decades ahead. We really appreciate your participation and your work in that. That concludes today's hearing.
▶ 1:59:29Chair Lee: Any senator wishes to submit additional questions for the record may do so. The deadline for submitting a 6:00 thursday, march 26. Centers have until next thursday to add status for the record for today's hearing. Again, thank you to the witnesses who testified here this morning. All those who participated.
▶ 1:59:52Chair Lee: I think this is -- we have done a good job here underscoring how important the work is in the nuclear industry is moving forward. With that, the meeting is adjourned.