▶ 0:29:56Chair Wicker: Senator reed.
▶ 0:30:00Sen. Reed: Mr. chairman, I will submit my opening statement to the record so we can begin the hearing.
▶ 0:30:09Chair Wicker: So now we begin with our witnesses. And just -- earlier and that has been recessed and now we are in open session. Lieutenant general whitney, we are going to direct at you.
▶ 0:30:39Lt. Gen. Whitney: Is a joint step representative on this important topic of low cost munitions. I would like to think this committee and all the congress for continued support of our joint force. On the joint staff I oversee the resources and assessment known as j9 we support the chairman and vice chairman to provide military vice to civilian leaders.
▶ 0:31:07Lt. Gen. Whitney: [no audio] we will not go to details we covered in the open hearing. There is 1.I would like to reemphasize. Low cost and develop mental munitions can complement the traditional munitions in our arsenal and we call this a high-end low mix and to be perfectly clear, both are needed.
▶ 0:31:28Lt. Gen. Whitney: [no audio] the record and I stand ready with my colleagues to answer any questions we can in this forum.
▶ 0:31:38Chair Wicker: Thank you very much. Without objection, that statement will be added to the record. >> >vice adm. Okano: good morning. To compete [no audio] we need deeper magazines and we need them now.
▶ 0:32:07Chair Wicker: Initial focus of our efforts is struck musicians as we continue to roll out strategy we will expand this remark to other efforts that will lead to a more capable, resilient, lethal force ready to meet the challenges of the 21st century battlefields.
▶ 0:32:21Chair Wicker: Our strategy is built on a three phased approach to ensure stability foster innovation and optimize our production capabilities, balancing robust collaboration with our industry partners with this firm accountability to ensure the best value for the taxpayer and the highest readiness of our war fighters. First, we stabilize the foundation of our industrial base. We assessed our most critical production lines like the tomahawk and standard missile 6 and works with contractors to make sure they can meet demand.
▶ 0:32:50Chair Wicker: We will provide them a stable, multiyear cement signals but in return we will demand the investor own capital to expand capacity. This approach is backed by significant investment. The 2026 appropriations act provided $1.16 billion the tomahawk and 1.42 for this standard missile family.
▶ 0:33:16Chair Wicker: The one big beautiful bill act as an additional $688 million to procure and recertify tomahawk's and $250 million to strengthen its supplier base. For the state or reconciliation provides another $630 million for new missiles and 225 million dollars to expand production capacity.
▶ 0:33:43Chair Wicker: [no audio] for new agile companies. We used pathfinder programs to provide -- to prove we could use flexible contracting to bring nontraditional partners and feel capacity gaps quickly. At the multimission affordable capacity effector is our clean sheet design for an air launched weapon that is affordable, scalable, effective.
▶ 0:34:11Chair Wicker: We challenge industry to deliver missile for no more than 300,000 per round and be ready to field at scale by 2027. I am here to tell you that industry is answering the call. Innovative companies are rising to this challenge. Third, we are designing these new systems to scale. Leveraging the stability and diversity from the preceding phases. We will focus on maximizing production efficiency and driving down costs.
▶ 0:34:38Chair Wicker: The key to achieving the speed and cost targets for programs like this is embracing new entrants that prioritize vertical integration, driving down supply chain risk by creating a competitive environment where multiple vendors are developing solutions we ensure the government does not get locked into a single provider. This allows us to select the most promising and cost-effective designs for full rate production. The strategies are energizing the entire defense ecosystem.
▶ 0:35:10Chair Wicker: The clear demand signal for affordable mass has mobilized a new industrial base. We see other innovators developing new capabilities which further proves our approach is working. By implementing innovative contracting strategies with clear performance incentives, we will ensure a collaboration with industry drives the highest level performance and accountability. The three-part strategy stabilized diversify and scale is how we build a deeper, more lethal magazine and healthier industrial base to support it.
▶ 0:35:39Chair Wicker: The department of the navy's munition strategy is a deliberate multifaceted and actionable plan designed to create an industrial ecosystem that is stable, diverse, and optimize for the challenges for today and tomorrow. By balancing collaboration with accountability and by welcoming new innovative partners while strengthening our existing relationships, we are building an enterprise that guarantees the lethality and readiness of the fleet.
▶ 0:36:06Chair Wicker: We are committed to the discipline execution of the strategy to ensure our nation's enduring maritime dominance. Thank you and I look forward to your questions.
▶ 0:36:13Chair Wicker: Thank you very much. Lieutenant general lozano.
▶ 0:36:18Lt. Gen. Lozano: Thank you for having me here today and for the opportunity to speak on the ways the army is embracing expanding competition in the space for companies of nontraditional backgrounds. On behalf of the army senior leadership, we thank you for your support of our soldiers, civilians, and their families.
▶ 0:36:40Lt. Gen. Lozano: Our industry partners are critical assets that provide our soldiers with the capabilities they need to deter our adversaries and when necessary fight and win our nation's wars. The interceptors from conventional artillery rounds, long-range fires the provider or the back bone of credible deterrence.
▶ 0:37:00Lt. Gen. Lozano: The character of war in the shape of tomorrow's battlefields are ever evolving in our doing so at such a rapid pace that we must develop capabilities outside the traditional defense industrial base dollars smaller new companies have never done business with the army before are proving new capabilities in providing the department with potential new options and affordability and scalability. Army leadership has made supporting and testing these new technologies at speed a top priority.
▶ 0:37:28Lt. Gen. Lozano: We are leveraging flexible acquisition authorities, including other transaction agreements to move ahead of traditional procurement timelines. We recognize the challenges that these new entrants face. Therefore, we are working hand-in-hand with these new companies to walk them through our processes to ensure these new technologies are not stalled and are collecting their feedback throughout the process to improve army acquisition.
▶ 0:37:53Lt. Gen. Lozano: One example I would like to highlight is a company called custodian, small nontraditional venture-backed company on contract with the army to deliver the blackbeard system. A low cost, high speed advanced weapon design for long-range precision strikes from army launchers. Custodian is currently constructing a production facility in new mexico and has executed at least 25 over the past year using their own capital.
▶ 0:38:23Lt. Gen. Lozano: Because we've been able to witness this level of commitment to the mission, we are working to provide greater demand signals in the form of performance-based payments and are providing them with access to army structure and range kind. We will also provide government earnest equipment, including high marginalized launchers. So integration activities can be part of the developmental process as early as possible. We will integrate war fighter input to ensure we are providing the capability that fulfills their needs.
▶ 0:38:53Lt. Gen. Lozano: Custodian is part of a growing list of nontraditional companies the army is pursuing as new entrants. Expanding the industrial base by including and encouraging these new entrants will allow the army to reduce risk and cost. It will increase scalability and competition and increase our munition stockpiles. Many of these new entrants also have innovative approaches to manufacturing and supply chain management.
▶ 0:39:19Lt. Gen. Lozano: We believe we will drive down progress toward overcoming some of these obstacles to scale in production. Concepts such as designing for scale from the start and relying on rapid iterative cycles will increase the pace of learning. As events over the last several years have demonstrated, modern conflict consumes munitions at an exceptionally rapid pace in sustain operations.
▶ 0:39:46Lt. Gen. Lozano: The mission of ensuring our inventories are at necessary readiness levels and investing and modernization of our capabilities is made possible by partnerships between congress, the services, and industry. Thank you for the opportunity to speak with you on integrating new and innovative companies into army acquisition. I look forward to your questions.
▶ 0:40:06Chair Wicker: General lyons.
▶ 0:40:10Brig. Gen. Lyons: Thank you for the opportunity to discuss an extremely important topic of alternative and low cost munitions. As the portfolio acquisition for weapons for the united states air force, I lead an extraordinary team that develops , produces, and sustains air delivered conventional munitions for the U.S. service allies and partners. There are three priorities that we talked about in the closed hearing and I will reiterate them for the record.
▶ 0:40:40Brig. Gen. Lyons: Priorities include support to worldwide operations, teams that arrange for transportation to munitions wherever they are needed. We have teams that respond to urgent operational needs and we will talk some of those examples. The second priority is to make active production lines for munitions delivered on time at high quality and high capacity. These production lines and their supply chains are national assets.
▶ 0:41:07Brig. Gen. Lyons: Over the past 18 months, we have worked closely with industry and the department of war on what it takes to increase production rates, improve supply chains and modernize production lines. The third and final priority is to execute both missile programs, the ones that are established programs of record, the exquisite ones as well as the affordable mass munitions programs with excellence.
▶ 0:41:31Brig. Gen. Lyons: These low cost munitions, particularly include the extended range and tech musician, fight a cruise missiles, and two variants of the family of affordable mass munitions. With potential for employment from fighter current mobility, and bomber aircraft. The extended range technicians and family of affordable mass munitions, cruise missiles, represent a new speed of acquisition.
▶ 0:41:56Brig. Gen. Lyons: For example, idea to contract occurring in four months from contract award to first flying prototypes of up to six different designs happen in four to seven months. A production for the extended range attack munition occurred 14 months from the first idea my first contract award. Both programs used streamlined acquisition processes. Both benefited from the attributes of their design. Both benefited from accelerated testing.
▶ 0:42:24Brig. Gen. Lyons: These are portable weapons and many others within the department of war are the decisive complement to existing program of record weapons. Through these programs, we will be able to expand production, buildup munitions inventories, and more rapidly replenish munition stockpiles. We will be able to most important provide more munition options to combatant commanders.
▶ 0:42:47Brig. Gen. Lyons: I want to thank the senate armed services committee for your leadership and support to the united states military and for holding this hearing on low-cost missions. Thank you. I look forward to the conversation.
▶ 0:42:59Chair Wicker: Very good. Let me ask this, the november 2025 munitions acceleration council, just a few months ago, that plan allocates approximately 97% of funds to exquisite high cost munitions and only 3% to the kind of weapons were talking about, low-cost. Higher volume alternatives.
▶ 0:43:30Chair Wicker: If we get going on this, given the need to sustain potential peer level conflict, what balance do you think we need to get to and how quickly can we do that? What is the right mix, 50/50? 60/40? Clearly, 97/3 is not what we are aiming at. Who wants to start first?
▶ 0:43:58Chair Wicker: >> first off I would say that is an indicator first of all how quickly these munitions are developing and coming up to speed. I think we'll see as we come forward that balance will shift in favor of the development of munitions or at least that amount will increase. It is a testimony to our efforts as acquisition professionals and as a department to go out and figure out what the right mix is to present to planers. I also think it is a challenge as we figure out where these are in their development stage.
▶ 0:44:30Chair Wicker: Honestly, I think will be a couple of years before we have a good understanding of what the true and balances if you will for a right mix.
▶ 0:44:36Chair Wicker: But that plan -- it was a plan and it was released only four months ago. So you are not willing to take a stab at 50/50 or whatever?
▶ 0:44:49Lt. Gen. Whitney: I don't have a crystal ball in front of me to project where I think it will end up.
▶ 0:44:54Chair Wicker: Ok. I'm not asking for a crystal ball, I'm asking for what would be the right mix, if we could get there? I will just call on each of you. By several okano.
▶ 0:45:19Vice Adm. Okano: I think it is important we stabilize the industrial base we have right now and I think that is really important. So putting money into the multiyear procurements, I think really helps us sin that demand signal and start to shift the production lines for the existing missiles we have.
▶ 0:45:41Vice Adm. Okano: In parallel, we are bringing on new entrants and I think as we bring on the new entrants and test out the capabilities, I do think that -- and also introduce them operationally, I do think you're going to start saying that percentage shift over time. We do have currently four destroyers and theater that have low cost munitions on them. Four counter uis. We are seeing success there.
▶ 0:46:09Vice Adm. Okano: And so we are installing another eight destroyers with that system so I do think you are saying that ramp up fairly quickly over time.
▶ 0:46:23Chair Wicker: Where would you like us to be a year from now? As opposed to 97% to 3%?
▶ 0:46:36Vice Adm. Okano: I won't give you specific answer but I will cite if the acquisition community is doing our job right, we are giving as many options to the operational community as possible. So flooding the zone with as many low-cost ignition options for them to make those tactical choices would be success in my mind.
▶ 0:46:57Chair Wicker: Brigadier general lyons, zone five to 16 months, rusty dugger. A low cost cruise missile. As opposed to five to 10 years. 16 months as opposed to five to 10 years. How did they do that? How is that possible?
▶ 0:47:19Brig. Gen. Lyons: The first thing is the business recipe includes more than just zone five. The same business recipe applies to other companies, too. Like post fire, another company and others. It starts with making sure the people that have the operational requirement give you the essential attributes. It is usually like half of a paragraph of what matters. In this particular case, 500 mile range.
▶ 0:47:50Brig. Gen. Lyons: That requirement process list was fast. The second one was approaching industry further ideas. We have these attributes, what could he build? Where zone five ended up was a finalist, there were over 100 companies at a chance to put their ideas forward. 17 were viable and four were the we took to flight. We had healthy involvement with them.
▶ 0:48:14Brig. Gen. Lyons: Zone five, just like the other companies, approached their design with a focus on building from day one you'd usually when you make a prototype, it is a one-off, hard to build, hard to duplicate. The designs fundamentally are focused on fewer tools, fewer parts. The design is also open systems architecture in zone five had some expertise in that area.
▶ 0:48:35Brig. Gen. Lyons: That allows you with an open systems architecture, we have changes in technology and changes on the battlefield, you can swap in different seekers, different payload packages, and as he accelerated test and fielding. So zone 5, although successful in 16 months, is a business recipe that involved everyone.
▶ 0:48:57Chair Wicker: Want to take a stab at my question about 97% versus 3%?
▶ 0:49:03Brig. Gen. Lyons: I do. Considering a few years ago we were essentially at 0%, so we are in a better place now with actually taking action, we must have both the exquisite programs of record as well as the affordable mass weapons. Affordable mass weapons by every class -- cruise missiles, supersonic weapons. Every class of weapons should have the same approach. In terms of percentage, here is what is going on inside the department.
▶ 0:49:32Brig. Gen. Lyons: Many of us have been at the table since the summer working on the strategy, looking at the supply chains of all of our known weapons. The discussions are now ongoing with respect to and they have been going on for many months about what we do with new entrants. Although I cannot give you a precise answer on what that percentage should look like, we are definitely at the table from all of the services in a collaborative way with a joint staff and department of war, to come up with that optimization.
▶ 0:50:04Brig. Gen. Lyons: So not in my privy to answer that specifically, but I do know it needs to be greater than zero.
▶ 0:50:09Chair Wicker: Apparently not in anyone's purview. I brief all taking a stab at it. Senator reed.
▶ 0:50:16Sen. Reed: . Thank you very much, chairman reed we have spoken today about the benefits of expanding the supplier base munitions, particularly low cost munitions and this is one of the reasons I am somewhat concerned by the departments recent announcement that it would be taking a $1 billion equity investment in l3harris to spin off its business.
▶ 0:50:43Sen. Reed: L3harris is currently only one of two qualified solid rocket motor providers. However, there are many other companies I believe that are eager to get into this business. And I'm concerned this equity deal will inhibit competition at a time when we should be encouraging competition. I.e. There is a dod entity that is competing with these strictly private entities.
▶ 0:51:13Sen. Reed: What analysis has been done to ensure that this equity deal will not impact sort of the market entry of any others? General whitney?
▶ 0:51:28Lt. Gen. Whitney: The deal you're referring to is in equity deal by l3harris, they spun off the solid rocket motors and got $1 million worth of funding from the government. It is a $5 billion total investment, $4 billion provided by l3harris. Part of a larger framework the deputy's been working on in terms of how to set up our industry base.
▶ 0:51:52Lt. Gen. Whitney: For specifics on analysis and so forth, I would defer to our acquisition sustainment undersecretary and I commit to working with him to getting you an answer.
▶ 0:52:01Sen. Reed: When you assess -- estimate l3harris will be at a point where they can start reproducing it robustly giving the lien notice we put in an affordable he they put in? Lt.
▶ 0:52:16Gen. Whitney: There was a plan for sometime this summer to fall and then would be increasingly --
▶ 0:52:21Sen. Reed: Admiral, you have any comments?
▶ 0:52:24Vice Adm. Okano: I was to equity as a financial tool like anything else like grants or loans and when you're dealing with solid rocket motors where you have got an industrial -- an industry where it is highly capital intensive, you need specialized tooling. There's is not really commercial market for this.
▶ 0:52:46Vice Adm. Okano: You do need a tool like equity that is appropriate so that it is not debt burden for the company. They can raise the capital fairly quickly. The end state is very high capacity, very fast.
▶ 0:53:09Vice Adm. Okano: And so I think in this case, this was the tool used and to allow that company to raise its own capital as well in order to increase expansion.
▶ 0:53:20Sen. Reed: Any comment?
▶ 0:53:24Lt. Gen. Lozano: What I would offer for your consideration is we are continuing to see multiple solid rocket motor companies emerge in the market space and so based off of our efforts with low-cost alternative munitions, we believe that we are going to be able to provide opportunities for not only new entrants to design develop, produce those low-cost alternative emissions and missiles, but that will then trickle down to support and encourage competition at the
▶ 0:53:55Lt. Gen. Lozano: Solid rocket base perspective. So we believe there will be plenty of opportunities for many different companies competing in that space to win business and sustain the infection capability across the united states.
▶ 0:54:12Sen. Reed: Will these countries be as skipper equity investments?
▶ 0:54:17Lt. Gen. Lozano: I am unable to answer that question.
▶ 0:54:21Sen. Reed: That was somewhat rhetorical. Forgive me. General lyons, what is your take?
▶ 0:54:27Brig. Gen. Lyons: My take with respect to the l3harris deal? Having been at the table for many months and listening to each of the talk about their needs and suppliers, and suppliers come that particular case when you look at the number of programs that are supplied by that company for rocket motors, there is more efficiency in terms of concentrating all of that activity rather than having it divided up in separate
▶ 0:54:59Brig. Gen. Lyons: Contracts. So that was the premise of the strategy. As to whether or not other companies will get the same shot at it, I do know that just like that particular case, we examined what other solid rocket motor companies can do, what their ideas were to expand or do better, and those conversations will continue. I don't think it rules out that others will be involved but that is an active conversation ongoing.
▶ 0:55:28Sen. Reed: Let me change slightly the focus. We are now trying to create a significant supply chain for low cost munitions. Have you done any analysis about how do you go about and do that? What are the incentives? I mean, we have this equity investment for the rocket motors, but is that analysis been done? General lyons?
▶ 0:55:59Brig. Gen. Lyons: Yes, sir. There has been analysis about the incentives. Our particular contract type, there are fixed contracts and those contracts also have hooks in their for production. The desire to get production allows some of those companies to look at their own capital investments and what they want to do in order to deliver on that business.
▶ 0:56:24Brig. Gen. Lyons: So we have at least three contracts right now where our contract professionals look at those arrangements and brokered those types of deals to get those companies to deliver. We want to replicate that.
▶ 0:56:36Sen. Reed: A final quick question, one of the chokepoints in every system that I have observed is a skilled workforce. Is that our problem with respect to these munition productions?
▶ 0:56:56Brig. Gen. Lyons: I am going to say that -- yes in terms of the attrition of the types of skill sets that we need on problems like this and having them in sufficient numbers. Things like engineers, people that know how to cut steel, solder, all of those skill sets are things that are needed.
▶ 0:57:23Brig. Gen. Lyons: In the particular programs that we have at this scale we have even though we are going to scale up, I have not been told we have a problem specifically with those programs, but at large is that need to bring that talent back into this type of work.
▶ 0:57:40Sen. Reed: Thank you very much.
▶ 0:57:43Chair Wicker: Thank you. Senator budd.
▶ 0:57:48Sen. Budd: Thank you. Something about this morning I feel like I'm a little closer to you on the dais. Maybe someone is missing. Thank you all for being here. About the directed energy weapons, I'm eager to hear your thoughts. They have been -- I just want to know -- what is your thought on their highest return on investment? Is it going to be lasers? Is it high-powered microwaves?
▶ 0:58:19Sen. Budd: Where do you think that is headed?
▶ 0:58:20Lt. Gen. Lozano: Thank you, senator for your question. We do believe from an army perspective that there is a place in the layer defense from an air missile defense perspective for not only directed energy, but for electronic warfare capability, as well as a high-power microwave. I am fond of saying there is no silver bullet in layer defense of posture.
▶ 0:58:49Lt. Gen. Lozano: And it takes multiple different systems working collectively together to a trip threats in depth read whether their group 1, 2, 3 uis systems or medium-range and intermediate range ballistic missiles. And so I do believe there is a place on the battlefield and as a primary course of action, we are running programs supporting directed energy and electronic warfare systems.
▶ 0:59:16Lt. Gen. Lozano: But I think those are systems that are also complementary from a low-cost interceptor perspective as well as from a more exquisite patriot perspective.
▶ 0:59:27Sen. Budd: What about a smaller scale in defense of the homeland?
▶ 0:59:32Lt. Gen. Lozano: Absolutely, I do believe high-power microwave electronic warfare and directed energy are viable capabilities in the homeland to be applied for post camps and station defense.
▶ 0:59:45Sen. Budd: Thank you for impressed by the opposition of the kill weapon system for 15 e's and other fighters. It's recent success against hostile uav's so how can we scale production and what is the future of counter uis look like from the air?
▶ 1:00:08Brig. Gen. Lyons: First thing I want to say is that particular example begins with having profound insight about operations on the battlefield. It was fall 2024 18 went over to europe, talked to the safety commander about what were the threats over in europe. So we learned about that and we learned about the potential of using an air to air weapon that is $5,000 to $1 million to take out one way attacked roane.
▶ 1:00:40Brig. Gen. Lyons: We know that threat is proliferated around the globe so it starts with having a profound insight into the combat operations. Next is having an institution postured for speed. There are some stories not well-known about how fast we can actually go to integrate those weapons on the f-15 and the f-16.
▶ 1:01:01Brig. Gen. Lyons: It is a true testament to the air force, multiple wings both operational and people that do program management, lab and industry, to make that happen. With that as the context, when you talk about scaling that type of product, the apkws, we'll start with the appropriation congress gave us in 2026 to go by a lot more of those.
▶ 1:01:25Brig. Gen. Lyons: Were also going to examine what allies and partners in the world have interest in that. And then that sets conditions also to rapidly increase the production. In terms of the future, the threat is not going away. So we are going to need multiple tools to handle that threat. One of those is the kinetic rockets, 40k to 50k and continue to improve those.
▶ 1:01:53Sen. Budd: Talk about efforts to pelletized low cost munitions and the interest in north carolina we have c-17's in the air national guard, and I'm interested in how they could play a part in the joint force.
▶ 1:02:05Brig. Gen. Lyons: So the pelletized christmas whole, it has been deaths -- cruise missile, it is but in the works for 14 months. We are beginning to to that design and test effort for the next jump in that demonstration capability this spring. One of the things we have to do is determine where we going to do testing, who is going to do testing.
▶ 1:02:33Brig. Gen. Lyons: So with respect to that, we have really great success with the active-duty both at eglin air force base and other places. But I've also in the last two months had conversations with air national guard about their capabilities. There is a range of ways they may be involved. They may be the people who do test planning, test execution. So the guard is a place we are going to look to.
▶ 1:02:56Sen. Budd: Thank you all.
▶ 1:02:57Chair Wicker: Thank you. Senator sheehy.
▶ 1:03:04Sen. Sheehy: General, mentioned where we are going to test some of these capabilities. Both in uniform and an industry before I came back to the government side, and as I talked to various contractors, it is routine to hear that range time and range access are a bottleneck across the board. Whether it is space systems, hypersonic's, regular artillery cells -- shells, the ability to access ranges where they can test a full spectrum capability these weapons, sometimes they are waiting years to get access.
▶ 1:03:36Sen. Sheehy: This has been going on for a long time. Aside from industrial base, understand none of you own the ranges yourself, but how do we communicate the demand signal that we have a big problem in range access? Our industrial base needs range access to iterative systems, to make them not just combat capable but improve upon them constantly. How do we make those two demands meet in the middle?
▶ 1:04:01Sen. Sheehy: So are contractors and our assessment commands can actually get the systems to field test them? That is open to anybody.
▶ 1:04:11Brig. Gen. Lyons: So access to government ranges has been a topic by many of our industry partners. One thing we've been able to do is we are doing a lot on low-cost cruise missiles on contractor ranges and we bring it out and we have government active-duty military test planners embedded with those teams to make sure we can maximize as much data collection before we ever approach a range.
▶ 1:04:43Brig. Gen. Lyons: Number two, there are certain things that are decisive when it comes to test acceleration. And that is the contribution from leaders. So for example, at the 96 test wing, which is that eglin air force base, when that team knows it is a priority, they make at the top priority. And it is amazing what can happen. In this particular case, there were tests that were supposed to happen in october 2026. Those tests completed last month.
▶ 1:05:13Brig. Gen. Lyons: That is an acceleration based on the decisive contribution of leadership. In terms of the iteration, there are number of things that we are looking at in terms of processes. Inside of the test ranges. We have great professionals doing that. Everything from what they call a safety review board, technical review board, and working with the industry partners about what exactly they want to do. But the access to ranges may continue to be an issue going forward and we are working at it hard.
▶ 1:05:41Sen. Sheehy: Admiral, specifically for you, torpedoes. We don't use them very often. We have not had to use them we often for 80 years. We used a couple a few weeks ago. How do we make sure that our industrial base that makes those is able to continue to make them when we actually need a lot of them pretty quickly?
▶ 1:06:00Vice Adm. Okano: Senator, we have two efforts of new entrants into low-cost torpedoes. One is our low-cost undersea effector. It is a low-cost version of our mark 54 and then we also have a low-cost version of our mark 48 called the raptor. We are testing both of those right now.
▶ 1:06:22Vice Adm. Okano: We are partnering with di you on one and sco on another to make sure we have got low cost munitions in all domains for the navy.
▶ 1:06:31Sen. Sheehy: We have a good understanding of what our cost for example a 155 shall, what it cost us to make it, what it costs china? >> currently ranges anywhere from about $30 to $60 around. I cannot comment, I do not know what it takes china to make an equivalent round and manufacturing production.
▶ 1:07:00Sen. Sheehy: Do you guys have the same for hellfire or mark 48, what it costs us and china to make it or russia?
▶ 1:07:08Lt. Gen. Lozano: I don't know what the cost is for china to make a hellfire-like equivalent. We currently produce that about $160,000 per round, sir.
▶ 1:07:19Sen. Sheehy: I would encourage all of you to the extent you can to get smart on it. Formation I have seen indicates even russia makes artillery shells for roughly 8% the cost we do. Part of that is mass quantity a part of that is appropriations and funding function which essentially they don't have to go to the complex process that we do.
▶ 1:07:42Sen. Sheehy: And from a missile technology standpoint, understanding that china 5% to 10% roughly is what it costs to make an equivalent munition. I don't believe that cost from -- comes from a capability gap we had I don't believe there munitions are 2% as good as ours and hours are 10 times better, nor do I believe it comes from inherently mental is going to cost more than here. It comes from our process.
▶ 1:08:05Sen. Sheehy: It comes from the fact we put every single thing we buy through incredibly rigorous process that does not end up making a product better for the were fired in the field. It ends up costing more money and taking more time. Your job is not acquisition reform, that is our job. But I ask that you get as smart as you can on the cost delta because were here on the battlefield, amateurs talk tactics and expert talk logistics is economic warfare.
▶ 1:08:36Sen. Sheehy: If it cost us 10 times more than the enemy, eventually, that would be bad for us. Thank you.
▶ 1:08:41Chair Wicker: Is anyone wish to respond to that? How are the ukrainians doing? There obviously pressed and having to be as innovative as they possibly can. But in this area of complementing exquisite weaponry with low cost, how are the ukrainians doing in that regard?
▶ 1:09:12Chair Wicker: Who would like to comment? >> I will start and open up for general lines to comment. I think the biggest thing we have seen come out of ukraine is a rapid pace of the innovation and how quickly they turn new concepts in terms of they will fly things and test them and they will iterate and constantly improve it.
▶ 1:09:32Chair Wicker: That would be exquisite and low cost.
▶ 1:09:35Lt. Gen. Whitney: Yes, sir. Her level of innovation is out of this world. I differed a general lines of he has some specifics.
▶ 1:09:44Chair Wicker: Necessity is the mother of invention. General lines, general whitney has called on you.
▶ 1:09:53Brig. Gen. Lyons: I was in europe and I've been in europe twice over the last 18 months. I was there last month and had a chance to get some insight about what was going on on the front lines over there. The number one take away that I left with was that the ability to iterate on your product based on changes in the threat environment is paramount.
▶ 1:10:19Brig. Gen. Lyons: They have demonstrated -- ukrainians have demonstrated the ability to make changes to their products. Sometimes a couple of days. If you compare that with what we do in the united states, that is a lot faster. So I'm coming way with some lessons on what we need to do to be able to do that product iteration a lot faster.
▶ 1:10:41Brig. Gen. Lyons: Again, it requires were designed to be open, requires her ability to scale, it requires you to have multiple vendors with the ability to scale things. There are some ideas we have about how to do things based on those lessons to speed up acquisitions. Would you talk about how they are doing in terms of it and how well they are doing, the speed of their innovation is exemplary. >> can I make a comment quickly?
▶ 1:11:08Brig. Gen. Lyons: I'm heartened to hear you say that but I'm also a little frustrated not with you personally but during the days when we had to rapidly protect ourselves from ied's, we saw our enemy iterate at the pace of the threat. They would change the ied every other day and would watch how we disarmed it, how we mitigated, and the next day they would adjust to that. We learned and we started adjusting at that pace, too.
▶ 1:11:36Brig. Gen. Lyons: We stopped taking two years to solve a problem because we knew it would cost lives. And while not perfect, it was an organization that prioritized iteration to save lives. Unfortunately, as soon as that threat was gone, we promptly wadded up the organization and threw it in the trashcan way back to the way we used to do things. You are absolutely right. We do have goodness in the dow that is done this before and we should not have to relearn the same things we learned the hard way 20 years ago.
▶ 1:12:07Brig. Gen. Lyons: I think you're saying exactly the right thing. But we should not have to go all the way to ukraine to learn the lesson that we learned ourselves in iraq and afghanistan. And we still have some of the dna I'm sure buried in the building. Let's dig it up and rejuvenate it. It is there somewhere.
▶ 1:12:22Chair Wicker: If you can point to specific areas in that five sided building to help these witnesses, that would be much appreciated.
▶ 1:12:35Sen. Sheehy: The third floor bathroom in the corner.
▶ 1:12:38Chair Wicker: Senator fischer.
▶ 1:12:41Sen. Fischer: Thank you all for being here today. This is very, very important issue. And I am happy to see the committee, the services, the administration address the seriousness of it. I would ask this of any witness to begin with, what do you see as key barriers to increasing weapons production from an acquisition standpoint? General whitney?
▶ 1:13:09Lt. Gen. Whitney: I would start with I think our number of things that go into the development of munitions and each one is unique situation. I'm sure my colleagues will have specific examples. I can see supply chain challenges everett for each product. I can see I've sustainment issues. I will defer to them for specific examples.
▶ 1:13:30Vice Adm. Okano: Senator, I think the first thing is we have got to stabilize the production that we have got right now with our existing systems. So the first piece is the stabilized demand signal and we think the committee for supporting the multiyear procurement authorizations. That has helped us with stabilizing the demand signal. We have got to aggressively get after the supply chain risks and the bottlenecks associated with that.
▶ 1:14:00Vice Adm. Okano: Solid rocket motors is one. Guidance sections is another that we really got to get after and be able to ramp up we had and bringing in new entrants and competition really helps get after that and that is really the nontraditionals that we are bringing income everything from olive browns and solid rocket motors, canisters, and then just ruthlessly focusing on scale is going to allow us to get after
▶ 1:14:31Vice Adm. Okano: That problem.
▶ 1:14:39Lt. Gen. Lozano: Thank you, senator fischer, for that question. Thank you to the committee for the past authorities you have granted. Prototyping, middle tier of acquisition, rapid fielding have enabled us to streamline processes and procure and rapidly prototype a much faster rate. So thank you for that.
▶ 1:15:05Lt. Gen. Lozano: Two efforts we are undertaking very aggressively in the army is consolidation, funding line consolidation, condensing the number of lines for different weapons systems, and budget flexibility, something we are requesting of the appropriators is an ability to buy what we need to buy in the year we need to buy it and not being beholden to what I put into a former budget request two years ago, because the dynamic nature of
▶ 1:15:35Lt. Gen. Lozano: Combat changes. We at the acquisitions I need to be as flexible and agile to change as well so we can buy what is relevant for our army and war fighters. Also I would like to talk about the multiyear authorities.
▶ 1:15:52Lt. Gen. Lozano: Those authorities go a long way in ensuring all long, consistent demand dih-- signal from the entrances who have to quickly generate a rate of return based on the capital they are borrowing to stand up there companies and production facilities.
▶ 1:16:06Sen. Fischer: Thank you. General lyons, anything to add?
▶ 1:16:12Brig Gen. Lyons: As a portfolio acquisition executive, a new one, I want to start not with the frustration, but with the positives. Since last summer, a lot of us on the table have been at the table with the top of the department of war going through every aspect of munitions in a collaborative way with the joint team to synchronize what we want to do for the industrial base. In terms of authorities, some authorities have been pushed down.
▶ 1:16:43Brig Gen. Lyons: We saved five months on the defendant -- definitization because authorities were questioned the pae-- pushed to the pae, and that's excellent. On the patrician part, fielding timelines, the thing that matters most is the access to the funding, the U.S. funding. It is industrial scale once we get it.
▶ 1:17:11Brig Gen. Lyons: There are certain problems with battlefield iteration that I would like to address the first minute I learned about it. But in terms of being able to get the resources to act in that first minute, have to spend a lot of time building staff package that goes through a pretty good process, sometimes really fast.
▶ 1:17:31Sen. Fischer: As a new acquisition executive, I'd like to ask you how you change the culture. How do you change the culture of the department so that you can move quicker? How do you all move forward to be able to embrace technology that's commercially available so you can move quicker? I think that goes to culture.
▶ 1:18:02Sen. Fischer: >> yes, senator, I will start first. One of the things the committee has helped us with is the requirements these. We set requirements not based on unique, niche requirements, but what we can quickly feel, and that is a culture change as well.
▶ 1:18:20Vice Adm. Okano: Senator, I would say that acquisition reforms about focusing on the mission. Within the navy, aligning the pae's towards a mission has been crucial. We have these things called systems commands, and we are moving about 70% of those folks into the pae's so they are mission-aligned and not compliance-aligned, I would say.
▶ 1:18:50Vice Adm. Okano: >> senator fischer, and leveraging the authorities come what I would offer is standing up the portfolio acquisition executive's and bringing to the pae's unity of command and effort associated with key functional enablers like contracting, army test and evaluation command, requirement developers, logisticians,
▶ 1:19:20Vice Adm. Okano: Programming, science and technology systems and relapse, having those all under the purview of pae's allow us to go faster and achieve unity of command against a common objective that we are trying to achieve, which is ultimately victory on the battlefield through low-cost munitions and other capable weapons systems.
▶ 1:19:41Vice Adm. Okano: >> in terms of changing culture, a key element is to make sure everyone involved in the mission, wherever you are inside the executive branch, legislative branch, defense industry, organic industrial base, everyone that touches this mission to know why we are doing it. When we have leaders walking production lines and acknowledge the contributions of the great americans doing the work, that lefts their spirit-- lifts their spirit of and they dive in even more.
▶ 1:20:11Vice Adm. Okano: As a leader in the government, the way the culture has changed is to describe the why, to go where the combat operations are occurring and learn about it firsthand. It is the lieutenants and captains executing a low-cost cruise missile programs you are hearing by today. They are junior and they are leading with profound experience they will take their entire careers. There is a lot to this. It is about injecting that energy and everyone involved in the mission.
▶ 1:20:39Sen. Fischer: Thank you. Thank you, Mr. chairman.
▶ 1:20:43Chair Wicker: Thank you very much for these witnesses and for the others who joined us across the street in the classified hearing. Question for the record will be due to the committee within two business days of the conclusion of this hearing. One moment. Oh, I'm sorry. Senator reed has changed his mind and has another question.
▶ 1:21:08Sen. Reed: No.
▶ 1:21:10Chair Wicker: Ok.
▶ 1:21:11Sen. Reed: I change my mind again. Very fickle.
▶ 1:21:16Chair Wicker: I will actually have a question or two for the record. And so we have two business days to get those in, and with that, we are adjourned.