▶ 0:23:50Chair Moran: I am excited about the hearing we are having. It has not seen a lot of attention. I'm glad it is receiving more today. And I think our witnesses. Got enough room? Everybody good? I thank our witnesses for being here. I especially want to welcome two of my friends from my law school days. Both have had significant career since we graduated.
▶ 0:24:19Chair Moran: Major general bush tate, who is one of -- butch tate, who is one of our witnesses today, and is one of the drivers in our state, along with the former chief justice, lawton us. -= -- nuss. These are the folks I know best in these issues and their relentless on veteran justice.
▶ 0:24:48Chair Moran: We should work to support veterans when they transition out of the military, and the value they add to communities and our country after their service when the transition goes well. We need to make sure that veterans who carry wounds, visible and invisible, are not forgotten. When left untreated, these can contribute to veteran involvement in the criminal justice system.
▶ 0:25:16Chair Moran: According to the veterans justice commission, 31 percent of veterans report having been arrested at least once in their lives, compared to only 18% of the general population. Veterans with ptsd or tbi diagnosis are more than 50% more likely to experience criminal justice involvement. While there is no one-size-fits-all solution to this problem, I am encouraged by the array of programs supporting justice involved veterans and their families.
▶ 0:25:47Chair Moran: I'm especially supportive of the veterans treatment court models. Johnson county, a suburb of the kansas side of kansas city, opened its first veteran treatment court in 2016. An additional five kansas counties have followed suit.
▶ 0:26:02Chair Moran: I am looking forward to hearing about the impressive journey that one kansan, one veteran court graduate, cory schram -- corey schramm, I'm looking forward to hearing his story. Thank you to your team for joining me today.
▶ 0:26:23Chair Moran: According to all rise, represented by general traffic, the treatment rate is 60%, approximately two thirds higher than probation and more than twice the rate of probationers with substance use disorders. This data demonstrates that cases of justice-involved veterans are best handled by experts who understand that a veterans experience is different than that of a civilian.
▶ 0:26:47Chair Moran: Veteran treatment courts are tangible investments in those who served our country, and the results we have seen speak for themselves. I will continue to prioritize federal support for veteran treatment courts in this committee as well as my role in the senate appropriations committee. This year, in an annual appropriation, that bill provided four million dollars to establish the national center for veterans justice.
▶ 0:27:12Chair Moran: Through the national center, I hope to see veterans in kansas and across the country benefit from coordinated doj resources designed to improve the outcomes of justice-involved veterans by closing the gap between research, policy, and the front line. This afternoon, we will discuss what congress, v.a., and local communities -- where they make strides in delivering on these promises we have made to those who serve.
▶ 0:27:37Chair Moran: We will also discuss what improvements are needed to make programs stronger, more sustainable, and more successful by putting the veteran first. I was encouraged to see doj's march release of a notice of funding availability for a veteran treatment course, followed by their commitment to brief the committee on their plans for the establishment of the national center and the technical assistance funding to support the treatment court staff and their partners. These developments reflect a welcome focus on justice-involved veteran community.
▶ 0:28:07Chair Moran: I look forward to hearing from federal, state, and local partners that are here with us today, and to learn more about how this committee can support them. At this point I normally yield to the ranking member. But senator blumenthal is on his way and he will be here and will say his opening statement for that -- we will save his opening statement for that arrival. I want to introduce the panel.
▶ 0:28:31Chair Moran: Testifying on today's first panel is major general clyde butch tate, retired, chief counsel of all rise. Kansas supreme court justice lawton nuss, retired. There is a message here. As well as corey schramm, a veteran of the U.S. army. David mcewan, of the veterans justice commission.
▶ 0:28:58Chair Moran: And rose carmen goldberg, associate teaching professor and director of the veterans clinic at the university of washington school of law.
▶ 0:29:06Maj. Gen: Tate: chair moran, ranking member blumenthal, and distinguished members of the senate committee on veterans affairs, it is an honor to testify today. Senator moran, we thank you and the committee. While saying thank you for your service is appreciated, as a nation, we must follow those words with the actions necessary to meet our core national obligation to care for our veterans. I want -- I am honored to be here with this panel of veterans , and especially Mr.
▶ 0:29:36Maj. Gen: Cory schram , an army veteran who has witnessed our justice system at its best. I am product to be the son of a 36 year combat wounded army infantryman who taught me to take care of soldiers and their family members. It is a lesson I took both into the army and my life after the army.
▶ 0:29:59Maj. Gen: A few months after joining all rise as chief counsel, training on best practices, speaking with stakeholders, listening to veterans and their families, I realized then and to this day strongly believe the veterans treatment course showcased our government, judiciary, and communities at the very finest. To be sure, the vast majority of veterans thrive because of military service.
▶ 0:30:24Maj. Gen: For many of us, it was the most rewarding time in her professional life, despite or maybe because of its hardships and sacrifices. For a small percentage of our veterans, their experience of the sites, the sounds, the memories, the resulting trauma, the attempts to bury that trauma, or too much to overcome without help. Without our help, they are left behind. And some engage in increasingly risky behavior that puts them at the crossroads of the criminal justice system.
▶ 0:30:57Maj. Gen: In society, just like any military formation, you can only move as fast as your slowest runner. Like the military, we cannot and should not accept leaving someone behind. Today, as we move toward programs that provide solutions, let's be mindful that the veterans do not want to be seen as an illustration.
▶ 0:31:20Maj. Gen: They and their families are real people who are in that very small segment of society who chose to serve us, but who have experienced circumstances that alter who they are, how they think, and how they act. What do we do? I submit that as a nation we have a choice. I hope we can learn from how we chose to treat my father's generation and the vietnam war and vietnam era veterans, and do better.
▶ 0:31:47Maj. Gen: That is, choose's temperament program structured to consider and address the unique experiences and circumstances of veterans, including those in our criminal justice system. The choice we make must be multifaceted and include person centered care. Veterans treatment courts transform the way our system identifies, assesses, and treats veterans in the justice system, and assembles the resources and parties to directly serve veterans. And these cops work.
▶ 0:32:16Maj. Gen: Beyond the dedication and commitment of all involved, these courts work because they are multidisciplinary, nonadversarial, emerging resources and stakeholders into a singular effort. They work because they are trained to follow evidence-based practices. They are treatment and accountability focused. Public safety matters.
▶ 0:32:38Maj. Gen: Housing, employment, counseling, transportation, education, mono legal clinics and others are as key to making these courts work as the judges, prosecutors, defense counsel, law enforcement, clinicians, employees of the v.a., and volunteer veteran mentors, the latter being our secret sauce. Like many complex challenges, there is no one solution fits all.
▶ 0:33:07Maj. Gen: That is why we are excited that today there is another press forward to improve outcomes for our veterans because of the congressional support for the national center for veterans justice. We are excited by the possibilities of the center.
▶ 0:33:23Maj. Gen: We are also excited about the synergy of future and current grams including law school veteran support clinics and university wide student veteran centers, located in proximity to each other to make it less challenging for a veteran to receive the support they need.
▶ 0:33:39Maj. Gen: As I conclude, and I hope you will indulge me in one final military analogy to highlight the critical aspect of the path forward, there is a theme running through each of the programs the participants have mentioned, including law enforcement, veteran mentors. That is the importance of training expert assistance to the overall success of each. Military units may have personnel who are mission focused.
▶ 0:34:11Maj. Gen: Skilled and experienced leadership. But to succeed, all units must be trained. In the proficiency drained from -- gain from training cannot be one and done. Success must be sustained. The success to chance, you are not making a choice that will improve outcomes. Training and technical assistance will improve graduation rates, which leads to increased recidivism and to the very reason that we are all assembled here today. That is to improve the outcomes for justice-involved veterans.
▶ 0:34:42Maj. Gen: Chair, thank you again for your time, for convening this hearing, for helping ensure that as a nation we make the right choice. Thank you.
▶ 0:34:52Chair Moran: Chief justice nuss?
▶ 0:34:58Mr. Nuss: A combat veteran told me he would have been better off being killed in afghanistan instead of coming home and being arrested for committing a civilian crime. As he described his shame to me, I went from hero to villain. This justice-involved veterans suffered from unhealed ptsd.
▶ 0:35:21Mr. Nuss: As has been said about such veterans, the painful paradox is that fighting for one's country can render one unfit to be its citizen. Fortunately, this veteran later became one of the first graduates of the veterans treatment court in johnson county, kansas.
▶ 0:35:45Mr. Nuss: I will talk more about this because our experience in kansas could be a model for how other jurisdictions establish new models and enhance existing ones. Before doing that, let me say I am a marine corps veteran. As was mentioned, the former chief justice of the kansas supreme court.
▶ 0:36:09Mr. Nuss: What has not been said is I left the court with three years remaining in my term, so I could devote more time to help my fellow veterans. Chairman moran, ranking member blumenthal, and members of the senate committee on veterans affairs, I am honored to speak before you today and both of those capacities. Now to begin. In 2015, kansas had no vtc's.
▶ 0:36:38Mr. Nuss: Now we have six and we are working to establish more. Johnson county was our first one. Some people insisted because it is our state's wealthiest county that only a few of its veteran residents could possibly have committed crimes. Until the sheriff was called and he said 60 of his inmates were veterans. That fact helped expose the need for vtc.
▶ 0:37:06Mr. Nuss: Another vtc obstacle was funding. I had to tell judges the judicial branch had no funds available, but these and other creators agreed to take on extra unpaid work and open the first kansas vtc in 2016. It has been thriving ever since, thanks in substantial part to later grants from the bureau of justice assistance. So we thank congress for these appropriations.
▶ 0:37:36Mr. Nuss: How do we know this vtc has been thriving? Consider that 89 veterans have graduated from this program and only five of them have been arrested for committing later crimes. That means 84 have been rehabilitated and nearly 95% success rate.
▶ 0:37:59Mr. Nuss: 84 people who returned to being contributing members of their families, local communities, and american society. How did kansas get five more vtc's? For starters, this vtc encourages all those who are considering one to come up watch the proceedings. There, the visitors also talk one on one with their peers.
▶ 0:38:27Mr. Nuss: For example, the vtc judge with the visiting judge, and the vtc probation officer with the visiting probation officer. Along with that, this vt tells these visitors just how beneficial all rise's training and technical assistance have been for it and will be for their future vtc's.
▶ 0:38:50Mr. Nuss: I participated in three of those training sessions, years before joining the all rise board of directors, and I can independently confirm they are worth it. Also, funding is helping to expand our vtc's statewide.
▶ 0:39:10Mr. Nuss: The judicial branch's specialty court program manager gets all rise's notices and funding opportunities, and after informing all courts, she and her grant writer help the responding courts apply for those grants to establish and enhance vtc's. The judicial branch also hosts a statewide specialty court conference each fall. Additionally, a supreme court justice serves as liaison to the specialty courts.
▶ 0:39:39Mr. Nuss: Either she or I or both attend the opening and graduation ceremonies of our vtc's. People like chairman moran and congresswoman sharice davids accept our speaking invitations there. So word spreads of the supreme court's ongoing support of vtc's.
▶ 0:40:03Mr. Nuss: We also emphasize the obvious money saver of avoiding incarceration and keeping a veteran in the community under court supervision which promotes their rehabilitation. Without this opportunity, we face the resulting financial cost of future incarceration for crimes.
▶ 0:40:20Mr. Nuss: We also face the hidden cost of these new crimes, and that is the extra time, the extra burdens, imposed on those working in the criminal justice system. In response to such information, last fall our newest agency was created. In douglas county, the home of the university of kansas, also known as ku, the vtc joined existing veteran-helping entities to form the kansas trifecta.
▶ 0:40:52Mr. Nuss: One is the ku law school's veteran support unit. Thanks to your committee chair, this clinic was created with federal funding and provides free legal services to veterans across the state. The third in the trifecta is the military affiliated student center.
▶ 0:41:14Mr. Nuss: There, students including current and former military and their families can come for services such as support from the v.a.'s vet success on campus program and guidance with answers including the g.I. Bill and v.a. Benefits, all while enjoying the camaraderie of a familiar military-connected environment.
▶ 0:41:39Mr. Nuss: The trifecta entities can share information and refer clients to one another when necessary. To conclude, I thank you all again on behalf of my fellow veterans.
▶ 0:41:52Chair Moran: Justice, thank you very much. Now to Mr. schramm.
▶ 0:41:59Mr. Schramm: Members of the senate committee on veterans affairs, thank you for the opportunity to speak with you today. I am a husband and a father of two great kids, and I am a proud veteran of the united states army. Today, I serve as an adult case manager at the johnson county mental health center, and a member of the criminal justice advisory council. I am also a grateful graduate of the johnson county veterans treatment program.
▶ 0:42:29Mr. Schramm: After 9/11, I joined the army and deployed to iraq three times. I'm proud of my service. In iraq, we had structure and routine. We knew we had each other's backs, and the mission kept his focus. Back home, I was still learning to be a husband and a father. Just when I felt I was building a relationship with my daughter, I would have to leave again. Drinking and drug use was my way of coping with a life I did not know how to live. In june of 2020, things came to a breaking point.
▶ 0:42:59Mr. Schramm: I spent five hours in a destructive episode at my house involving a weapon. I have no memory of the incident but I woke up charged with a felony and facing incarceration. I did not know if I would be welcome back in my home again. This is where my story of recovery begins. A veteran's justice outreach specialist with the v.a.'s who introduced me to the veterans treatment court. Veterans treatment court changed my life and the life of my wife and children.
▶ 0:43:27Mr. Schramm: My first day in veterans treatment court happened to be a graduation ceremony. I watched veterans with similar backgrounds as mine hug the judge and thanked police officers who had arrested them. They were applauded and thanked for their service. It was like nothing I had ever seen. Veterans treatment court changed my life in the lives of my wife and children. The program gave me structure, accountability, and support. I knew where I needed to be and what was expected of me.
▶ 0:43:56Mr. Schramm: For the first time since leaving the military, I felt like part of a unit again. I received community-based services and v.a. Care including treatment and group therapy, and I started to see a future for myself and my family. The veterans treatment court was with me every step of the way. When I needed help, they were there to provide it. When I stumbled, they shall hold me accountable.
▶ 0:44:18Mr. Schramm: One of the most important parts of my journey was my mentor, navy rear admiral anne phillips, stood by me every step of the way and showed me what recovery could look like. Through the v.a. Vocational rehabilitation program, I went back to school and got an associates degree and addiction council. I remember sitting at the table with my daughter, doing her homework together. It was one of the small moments that helped us rebuild our relationship.
▶ 0:44:48Mr. Schramm: This year, my wife and I will celebrate our 20th wedding anniversary and will be taking our daughter to college at kansas state university. My son and I are in our sixth consecutive year attending nascar races at the great kansas speedway. I was nervous to graduate, but the program prepared me for this challenge. I'm sharing my story today because there are countless veterans who do not have access to veterans treatment court. Veterans treatment courts are not a shortcut. These programs are rigorous.
▶ 0:45:20Mr. Schramm: They demand honesty, discipline, and a willingness to change. But they work. As you consider the future of veterans treatment courts, I urge you to continue supporting and expanding these programs. Behind every statistic is a veteran like myself, someone who served, who struggled, and, with the right combination of accountability and support can find their way back. Thank you for the opportunity to share my story. I look forward to your questions.
▶ 0:45:54Chair Moran: On the anniversary and off to college. And our support and thanks to the admiral. General mcewan -- macewen, you are recognized.
▶ 0:46:15Brig. Gen. Macewen: I retired as the adjutant general of the army. I serve as director of the veterans justice council, an independent nonpartisan think tank and invitational member support organization that advances the understanding of the nation's criminal justice policy choices and builds consensus for solutions. In 2022, the council assembled the commission to figure out why so many men and women who have served our country are lining up in the criminal justice system.
▶ 0:46:47Brig. Gen. Macewen: It issued 11 recommendations and several research publications. I submitted the details of all the recommendations in my written testimony. Each year, about 2000 service members leave the military. Most transition successfully. But some faced challenges. Veterans are more likely than nonveterans to be arrested, and tens of thousands are incarcerated.
▶ 0:47:13Brig. Gen. Macewen: This involvement is often driven by combat-related trauma, traumatic brain injury, loss of benefits, and gaps in identification and intervention. The way we currently manage struggling veterans undermines recruitment, jeopardizes the health and safety of our veterans, their families, their communities, and ultimately national security. The commission made several recommendations for changes at the pentagon.
▶ 0:47:41Brig. Gen. Macewen: One, creating an undersecretary of transition to mitigate the issues of fragmented delivery of services, and creating accountability in one office. Two, creating a validated risk needs assessment that identifies service members at the highest risk for public transition problems, and incorporating evidence-based rehabilitative practices into the management of disciplinary and other performance issues.
▶ 0:48:12Brig. Gen. Macewen: And three, establishing a network of joint transition centers, residential programs aligned with v.a. Facilities, to assist prior risk service members before they leave service. A critical element of the commission's plan addressed what we referred to as the commander's dilemma, the tension commanders face between maintaining unit readiness versus supporting underperforming service members or supporting transition.
▶ 0:48:42Brig. Gen. Macewen: To prioritize operational readiness, commanders look for the fastest way to replace service members are not available for unit transition for disciplinary or medical reasons. A commander may not have the flexibility to allow an individual to participate in congressionally mandated tasks or receive evidence-based support for the kinds of minor disciplinary infractions seen in the civilian justice system.
▶ 0:49:10Brig. Gen. Macewen: Instead, the system defaults to granting administrative discharges. And other than honorable discharge, it is an administrative death sentence, locking service members out of benefits that support a smooth transition. I speak from experience on this. I recommended or approved, without knowing the full impact, those kinds of discharges, and I regret them to this very day. The commission made several recommendations for changes at the v.a.
▶ 0:49:43Brig. Gen. Macewen: Congress must return to the plain text of the 1944 g.I. Bill, providing v.a. Eligibility to all former service members not discharged under dishonorable conditions. Second, repeal of the 1999 rule change and return to providing v.a. Health care to incarcerated veterans. The medical services are more appropriate and effective than standard correctional care.
▶ 0:50:11Brig. Gen. Macewen: And third, eliminate administrative barriers to housing eligibility and prevent benefit arrearages. When veterans do enter the criminal justice system, they confront a patchwork of interventions. These programs vary substantially across jurisdictions, and many fall through the cracks. Vtc's have been pioneering life-saving interventions for thousands of veterans. Yet despite their expansion, we found that only about 15% of veterans were able to take advantage.
▶ 0:50:42Brig. Gen. Macewen: We developed a complementary policy framework for those without access to a vtc. It has been adopted by the american legislative exchange council and is under consideration in several states. Finally, regarding the national center on veterans justice proposed by the commission, congress authorized $4 million for the center in january and we are grateful for that.
▶ 0:51:05Brig. Gen. Macewen: The center should act as a hub for improving the success of justice involved veterans by identifying and replicating best practices across the country and establishing proper program evaluation so we can invest in what works. If implemented poorly, it will revolutionize how the system treats the unique cases of our veterans. Most veterans return stronger from their service. But too many still need our help.
▶ 0:51:32Brig. Gen. Macewen: It is nothing sort of tragic that those who once were the cloth of our nation know where the cloth of incarceration. We sent them. We used them. Now, we must do better and stand by them, ensuring that we have the support to return them to their families, their communities, and their countries. And their country. Thank you.
▶ 0:51:56Chair Moran: Thank you, sir. Professor goldberg?
▶ 0:52:03Dr. Goldberg: Chairman, ranking member, and members of the committee, thank you for the opportunity to testify today on the pressing topic of how we can better serve justice-involved veterans. The veterans clinic I teach at university of washington school of law provides free legal services to low income veterans. Many of our clients are justice-involved veterans.
▶ 0:52:29Dr. Goldberg: In this role and my decade in veterans law, I have seen firsthand the significant harms and barriers that justice-involved veterans face, and how these two often result in incarceration. While these barriers are many, I will focus my time. First, while veterans treatment courts are a highly effective intervention that improves outcomes for justice involved veterans, not all veterans are allowed to participate.
▶ 0:52:55Dr. Goldberg: In some jurisdictions, veterans with less than honorable discharges are locked out. This runs counter to the spirit of veterans treatment courts, which recognized that postservice criminal conduct often stems from a mental health condition during service stemming from service traumas. The same is often true for military misconduct that results in a less than honorable discharge.
▶ 0:53:19Dr. Goldberg: In addition, veterans with less than honorable discharges stand to gain the most, in many instances, from the integrated and structured treatment that veterans treatment courts provide. They have higher rates of incarceration, higher rates of homelessness, and are at higher risk of suicide than other veterans. While many treatment courts connect veterans with v.a. Services, there are a variety of options available for veterans with less than honorable discharges that the v.a. Has not recognized as being eligible.
▶ 0:53:49Dr. Goldberg: The v.a. Provides care to other than dishonorably discharged veterans for military sexual trauma related conditions, service related conditions, and to veterans who served at least 180 days and served in combat, regardless of discharge status. Mental health care may also be available through local, state, and community sources. Second, veterans are deplete -- are deprived of benefits. The v.a.
▶ 0:54:19Dr. Goldberg: Is supposed to reduce benefits under certain conditions. For veterans convicted of a felony for incarcerated for more than 60 days, starting on day 61, if they are rated over 20% or more, their benefits are reduced all the way down to 10%. However, the v.a. Does not consistently make these reductions.
▶ 0:54:44Dr. Goldberg: Upon release, a veteran may receive surprising news they are indebted for these overpayments and v.a. Is garnishing their benefits. Overpayments thus threaten veterans successful reentry into society. In addition to preventing overpayments, the v.a. Should liberally waive overpayment debts went to incarceration under its existing authority to waive debt as a matter of equity. Third, incarcerated veterans are in urgent need of v.a.
▶ 0:55:14Dr. Goldberg: Mental health care. Veterans with service connected mental health conditions are more likely to be incarcerated and confined it aggravates their conditions. The v.a. Position is it cannot provide this care. This exclusion from basic care is inequitable and harmful. I was therefore pleased to see the get justice involved veterans act introduced recently, and strongly supported. By senator king, yes. The most important part.
▶ 0:55:47Dr. Goldberg: This bill would create a pilot program under which the v.a. Provides tele-mental health treatment to incarcerated veterans. This would fill an important gap, as mental health care in correctional facilities is inadequate and only the v.a. Provides treatment for conditions unique to military service such as traumatic brain injury linked to military sexual trauma in combat. I encourage the expansion of this important program to include veterans with less honorable discharges.
▶ 0:56:17Dr. Goldberg: They stand to benefit greatly given their high risk of incarceration and mental health conditions. In the v.a. Has options to provide this care. I also applaud senator king's bill for requiring automatic resumption of v.a. Benefits after incarceration ends. Timely resumption of benefits can mean the difference between living on the streets and a high risk of recidivism, versus safe housing as a launchpad for a healthy life.
▶ 0:56:46Dr. Goldberg: Yet it can take many months and much advocacy for veterans to get their full benefits back. Finally, I enthusiastically support the launch of the national center of veterans justice by doj as a hub for collecting best practices. I hope this mission will encompass the different areas of policies that impact justice-involved veterans. I think the midi for your -- the committee for your commitment to addressing the root causes.
▶ 0:57:12Dr. Goldberg: By focusing on building programs that heal veteran service traumas, we can truly achieve justice for veterans.
▶ 0:57:23Chair Moran: I'm going to turn to senator blumenthal for his opening statement.
▶ 0:57:31Sen. Blumenthal: Thank you, Mr. chairman. I apologize that I was late being here. I want to thank all of our witnesses being here, and your leadership on this critically important issue. Special thanks to professor goldberg, who served on my staff for a while. Thank you for your continued service. I became involved in this issue. Very hands-on.
▶ 0:58:04Sen. Blumenthal: Through a veteran in new haven. A marine corps veteran. Served in vietnam. Got in trouble with his sergeant. He suffered from pts. Nobody knew what it was at that time.
▶ 0:58:25Sen. Blumenthal: Nobody had any idea that shellshocked, as it was called, or whatever the terminology of the time, might cause people to get in trouble. He received a less than honorable discharge. So he was ineligible for treatment when he had a drug problem. He was unemployed. He was on the streets. And he turned his life around.
▶ 0:58:52Sen. Blumenthal: And then brought a lawsuit against the department of defense through the v.a. Law clinic. I was part of the law clinic trying to help him with that action and went through several secretaries of defense who were sympathetic, but felt they could not do anything about that with the discharge, even though it was factually and morally unjust , until chuck hagel.
▶ 0:59:25Sen. Blumenthal: Secretary hagel did the right thing and established that people could more easily, more accessibly, come to the boards of review. And connolly upgraded his discharge, and he is now an advocate for all veterans. I saw him just a week or so ago.
▶ 0:59:53Sen. Blumenthal: But there are probably thousands of people like him out there who messed up. They got into trouble. Maybe it was caused by trauma, their service, underlying risk factors that were never treated, obstacles to successful transition, lack of structured environment. Everybody thinks veterans are these paragons of virtue. And many are.
▶ 1:00:24Sen. Blumenthal: But there are also a lot of guys who just come out of the service and they had problems before they went in, and those problems may not have manifested then. My question to this panel is how do we create more awareness about these opportunities.
▶ 1:00:45Sen. Blumenthal: I find even now, years later, most veterans are unaware of the possibilities, the opportunities to upgrade their discharge from less than honorable. Obviously, we are not talking dishonorable discharge. We are talking about less than honorable discharge. One of my hopes is that we can create more awareness. I will maybe turn that question over to the panel.
▶ 1:01:17Sen. Blumenthal: I don't know who might want to start the answer. Ms. goldberg?
▶ 1:01:25Chair Moran: Answer your former boss, please.
▶ 1:01:32Sen. Blumenthal: She was my boss.
▶ 1:01:35Dr. Goldberg: Definitely not. My clinic works on a lot of discharge upgrades. There is a great need for increased awareness. There unfortunately are a lot of rumors growing quite prevalent. One is the automatic six-month discharge upgrade. I have heard this from veterans discharged decades ago. I have heard this from recently discharged veterans. They are put through the administrator of separation process. They are told, don't worry. Just sign on the line.
▶ 1:02:05Dr. Goldberg: No need to go to a hearing. You will be automatically discharged and get your benefits back. It was so prevalent that for a while on the navy discharge review board website, it had a big bowl where there is no automatic six-month discharge upgrade. I have found that a lot of veterans are not aware. As you mentioned, there are liberalized rules. There is the hagel memo.
▶ 1:02:32Dr. Goldberg: It requires the justice upgrade boards to provide liberal consideration to veterans who were discharged due to an undiagnosed mental health condition, or experienced military sexual trauma and the effects of that resulted in what was misinterpreted as misconduct.
▶ 1:02:50Dr. Goldberg: I think there is a great need to spread awareness about both the availability of discharge upgrades and that there have been improvements under the law thanks to the law school veterans clinic in large part, such that veterans who may not have had a hope have some hope. I do think improvements need to be made in the process, and veterans are right to be somewhat hesitant. Wait times are up for years. There are serious due process issues.
▶ 1:03:20Dr. Goldberg: We need to raise awareness particularly for veterans discharged consequent to mental health conditions. This may be available to you. But enhance the due process protection. One additional point. I think a lot of awareness needs to be raised regarding an alternative remedy. Very few veterans are aware the v.a. Has its own character of discharge review process.
▶ 1:03:47Dr. Goldberg: It has its own issues, but it is faster. The v.a. Makes a separate determination where they can find a veteran honorable for v.a. Purposes. They cannot change the dg 14. But if they make this finding, veterans would have access to disability benefits, health care, everything except for the g.I. Bill. That can be literally life-changing for veterans, but there is very little information out there.
▶ 1:04:17Sen. Blumenthal: Thank you all. Thank you, Mr. chairman.
▶ 1:04:26Sen. Tillis: Thank you all for being here. Congratulations. I have actually had a long relationship with veterans treatment courts in north carolina. In fact, the first one we had created there was back in 2013 when I was speaker of the house. Man, they worked. If my colleagues have not been to a graduation of veteran treatment court, you owe it to yourself. It is like the swearing-in ceremony for citizenship.
▶ 1:04:54Sen. Tillis: It is really heartwarming and it is a lot of fun to speak to the graduates. We actually -- our strategy in north carolina has been trying to encourage its in and around v.a. Facilities, because we know that they work hand in hand. I think we have done a good job of that from near fort bragg out to asheville. There is no major v.a.
▶ 1:05:20Sen. Tillis: Facility in the state of north carolina that does not have a vtc nearby, and I think it works. The thing I think we need to do to get the scale and consistency is start talking about best practices and models. In the bipartisan safer communities act bill that I was part of leading the negotiations, we established additional funding for veterans treatment courts. We need to make sure that the take rate is as high as it can be.
▶ 1:05:50Sen. Tillis: That was a $14 billion investment in behavioral health. I want to make sure we spend that money, particularly in family courts and veterans treatment, bits, because the money is there. And I should back up and say this is a great cure for the veterans who can get access to it, but we have still got to work on prevention. It goes back to what I have been saying for the 11 years I have been on this committee.
▶ 1:06:17Sen. Tillis: We have got to get to a transition process that is an audience of one. We have got to get some stickiness so that people like cory, once he gets discharged, has some connection to a community. We all know the ones who are most likely to run into trouble are the ones who are least likely to be connected to the v.a. That is indisputable. The question becomes how can we -- a lot of these things are initiated at the state and local level.
▶ 1:06:48Sen. Tillis: The example I have used, we actually did congressional directed spending just recently for another vtc in north carolina. Is there some sort of consensus around states that are doing it right? I'm not necessarily saying that north carolina does it right. We are one model that is creating good results.
▶ 1:07:10Sen. Tillis: How do we start coalescing around may be a national standard based on best practices, since these courts have been out here for a while, and see it to what extent we can encourage the state and local governments to build out more capabilities, provide more access? The second question really relates to every hearing I have ever gone to are in transition. We all say the same thing. I don't feel we have made enough progress.
▶ 1:07:38Sen. Tillis: Either validate my theory that we have still got a lot of work to do to really get to this, where we have the stickiness with the at risk servicemembers, or tell me I am wrong, we are making real progress, and we just have to build with it. Mr. tate?
▶ 1:07:56Maj. Gen: Tate: excellent questions. The way we ensure fidelity to the model, the way we ensure best practices and evidence-based procedures, is the training and technical assistance. I cannot understate the value that our training and technical assistance program creates, when you talk to the team's about here is what works.
▶ 1:08:20Sen. Tillis: People are well intentioned, but they are not all executing as well. They are not getting the graduation rates we would like to see.
▶ 1:08:29Maj. Gen: Tate: yes, sir. And sometimes when they think they know the right way to do it, they may cause more harm than good. With training and technical assistance, we can certainly avoid that happening. The states that seem to be doing it better than others are those that can invest the time in training and technical assistance. I think that is how we ensure that we move forward in the right direction and try not to do more harm than good.
▶ 1:09:02Sen. Tillis: My time is going to go over and I appreciate the chair recognizing me. What I would really like if you all can think about it -- senator blumenthal and I worked on the issue over the years on bad paper. We know one of the things here is the veterans don't think they have an option. We know the v.a. Has allowed some people in on an exception basis with a less than honorable discharge. We need certainty. But we also need to know where these veterans are. Before a problem.
▶ 1:09:34Sen. Tillis: If you all could maybe submit for the committee but at least for my office suggestions around best practice models, things that are working, we would be very happy in my remaining time in the senate to see if we can move the ball. You have my support. Thank you all.
▶ 1:09:54Sen. Hirono: I know that there are a lot more veterans, something like over 100 thousand veterans are incarcerated. Maybe somebody has updated numbers. And only a small percentage of the incarcerated veterans go through this program.
▶ 1:10:21Sen. Hirono: Can somebody explain to me why that is the case? There must be criteria for participating in the program. So first of all, it sounds as though the program really works. So more veterans should have the opportunity to participate. Would somebody like to respond to mark can you speak into the microphone, please?
▶ 1:10:49Mr. Nuss: Yes. Is that better? It says talk. Now it is on. Is someone trying to tell me something? Does it work now?
▶ 1:11:07Sen. Hirono: Yes.
▶ 1:11:08Mr. Nuss: Several answers, I believe, senator, to your question. First of all, there are just on awful lot of jails in this country where they have no idea if the people in their incarceration are veterans.
▶ 1:11:27Mr. Nuss: The simple matter of asking people as they are being booked, have you served in the military -- they don't say are you a veteran, because the younger folks think it is old guys, and if you say have you served in the military, sometimes they will still lie because they are ashamed because they basically took an oath to support you and me when they entered the military, and some of them are also afraid that the mere fact
▶ 1:11:58Mr. Nuss: They have been arrested means they will lose their v.a. Benefits. Asking the question helps, but the check on that is to use v.a. Electronic rooms. One is called the rss and the other is called squares. You can go online using the program and find out if the person who was an inmate in your jail actually served in the military.
▶ 1:12:24Mr. Nuss: The second thing is -- let me say that that then helps convince the local folks, the courts included, as to whether you have the need in your area for vtc's. Johnson county thought we don't need one, and then they found out they had 60 veterans incarcerated in their jail. The same thing happens across the state. I'm sorry. Across the country.
▶ 1:12:51Mr. Nuss: Once you have established that, you should go forward and try to put something together. But I have talked with my colleagues is you don't have to wait until you have the deluxe version before you open a vtc. You can start very small and then, over time, increase what you want to do for these folks.
▶ 1:13:14Mr. Nuss: You can commit people to your program who have bad paper discharges if you don't care about the v.a. Providing benefits and you have a local community health center or something like that. You can proceed. That is something johnson county does.
▶ 1:13:33Sen. Hirono: Thank you. I know from the summary of the commission report -- I think this is the report -- that we do not know how many veterans are incarcerated. We don't have this information. There must be some way to do better in terms of identifying the people would benefit from this program. There are over 700 vtc's across the country. There are four in hawaii.
▶ 1:14:02Sen. Hirono: When they are participating -- I realize it is not one-size-fits-all. But it really decreases the recidivism rate and all of that. The more veterans who are able to participate, the better, right? >> senator, we absolutely agree that more vtc's are better. But we also know they simply do not reach enough of the population, as you have described.
▶ 1:14:28Sen. Hirono: Many exclude people with violent behavior, which is often times the type of behavior that some of our veterans get involved in. 35% exclude those with what we call bad paper.
▶ 1:14:42Sen. Hirono: So we came up we came up with a complementary thing to bridge the gap, a model policy that gives a judge in a non-vtc jurisdiction the ability to act like a vtc without the vtc, all the bells and whistles, so to speak, of a full vtc because we know the vtc system works.
▶ 1:15:09Sen. Hirono: Lake chief nuss said, use community-based stuff and give a statutory background, backbone to a judge in a jurisdiction.
▶ 1:15:22Sen. Hirono: So we need to provide flexibility. For all panelists, I know use or -- you support vtc, so I will review the recommendations. I take it all of you would support the recommendations that commission came up with. Thank you, Mr. chairman.
▶ 1:15:42Chair Moran: Senator hassan.
▶ 1:15:45Sen. Hassan: I really appreciate this hearing and I'm grateful to all the witnesses not only for being here today but for your advocacy and your service. I want to follow up on the question senator hirono just post to chief nuss, but I want to ask general tate if he has anything to add.
▶ 1:16:10Sen. Hassan: We know the value of the courts and how they decrease recidivism but we also know not every jurisdiction has one of these courts. It can be hard to ensure eligible veterans are identified and connected to treatment. You just talked about some of the things we can do. General, I wanted to add on to that. Are there other things we can do to identify veterans who are eligible for these courts and services?
▶ 1:16:38Maj. Gen. Tate: Excellent question because that is an age-old problem. It starts with, I go back to training and technical assistance. Part of our training includes law enforcement who are likely to be the parties at first contact with the offender, we will say. Training them to understand how to ask the right questions and appreciate what the veteran may be going through. Education is part of it. Advocacy is part of it.
▶ 1:17:09Maj. Gen. Tate: We talked about the national center for veterans justice. Part of that will be a state and local engagement, convening at the national level. It will be all of these stakeholders who really want to make a difference, coming together and learning, this is how we identify, this is how we assess and this is how we treat. This leads to success. To senator tillis' question, when did we get the bottom line?
▶ 1:17:39Maj. Gen. Tate: We are there when there is a vtc in reach of every eligible veteran. They are not for every veteran in trouble. That is where the assessment part comes in. High risk and high need will benefit the most. If the veteran is not high risk or high need, don't put him through such a high accountability, high touch sort of environment. Let's get them treated.
▶ 1:18:04Maj. Gen. Tate: They don't have to face the same sort of accountability that someone embedded in the treatment program -- it is not necessarily for every veteran who gets in trouble. We have to be careful how we assess.
▶ 1:18:19Sen. Hassan: I appreciate that and I need -- we need to work on that together. I was struck when the chief was talking about don't ask someone if they are veteran, we found when we tried to increase access to veteran informed karen new hampshire, we had to really train medical providers to ask have you ever served? Not, are you a veteran. That was a revelation.
▶ 1:18:44Sen. Hassan: Chief nuss, I wanted to ask you, you are doing incredible work and I love the story about how, the effort in kansas has grown. You mentioned the grants from the bureau of justice assistance helped overcome funding obstacles. What more can congress do to facilitate the creation and operation of veteran treatment courts? Brigadier general, was talking about that.
▶ 1:19:12Sen. Hassan: And what can we do to support state and local partners?
▶ 1:19:15Mr. Nuss: Thank you, senator. The first answer that comes to my mind is increase the appropriations that would go to be ja. And as as the chair pointed out, those figures came out three or four weeks ago. I believe $26 million has been appropriated. For some reason there are entities around the country who do not apply for those grants. I don't know why.
▶ 1:19:48Mr. Nuss: But they somehow need to be educated that the money would be available. I have also spoken with some federal court judges, and they are not protected by that. Those appropriations. One of them told me that they don't have the money for an additional probation officer who can handle veterans in a veterans treatment court program.
▶ 1:20:13Mr. Nuss: So they don't have any program for them other than trying to put the veteran defendant in contact with the v.a. So the officer can provide. Services that they don't have a program where if you are a veteran, we can divert you from this crime if you go through our 18 month program. Several courts have said, the federal courts don't get the benefit of those appropriations through the ja.
▶ 1:20:45Mr. Nuss: Although the tribal nations are, and I think we have 575 federal recognized tribal nations in the country, very few of them apply for these funds. So I don't know if congress can do anything to try to stir their interest or their notice of this availability.
▶ 1:21:04Sen. Hassan: I appreciate that. I will submit one more question to the record for all of you to highlight something that I hoped to get to, we have been talking about veteran treatment courts for veterans who get involved with the criminal justice system. It is important to note that we often overlook how civil legal issues can impact veterans.
▶ 1:21:28Sen. Hassan: So I'm going to act all -- ask all of you for your thoughts about the bet -- the benefits veterans can get with civil legal issues and how that can reduce recidivism and perhaps prevent involvement with the criminal justice system. Thank you. That would be great, thank you. It is everything from housing 2 -- >> is this legal aid?
▶ 1:22:00Sen. Hassan: Housing, family law. I would love to explore that. >> my experience is you won't find a veteran in veterans treatment court with just one problem. You will find layers of problems, all of which led to that unfortunate intersection with law enforcement. We are talking housing, employment, education, counseling, substance use disorder treatment.
▶ 1:22:32Sen. Hassan: Every possible issue. I get kicked out on the street, I no longer have a place to live. My employer fired me because I don't have a place to live. I can't get to work, cannot get my car. I need to feed my family and that is how this happens. That is why this so critical to have the involvement of these community partners.
▶ 1:22:58Sen. Hassan: I believe government in the judiciary and community partners have never looked better than they do with veterans treatment, so we need to get those partners together in a courtroom along with the veterans justice outreach officer to start to coordinate and remove those. It is important to address those which is why the pro bono clinics and law school clinics come in handy. >> the thing the commission found was, we start looking at this too late.
▶ 1:23:30Sen. Hassan: We start looking at it when they become justice involved. We have to start looking at it while they are still in the military, because when you think about it, we spend $9 billion per year taking individual people, civilians, and transforming them into warriors. Into 800 different specialists, from firefighters to fighter pilots, over a period of weeks.
▶ 1:24:01Sen. Hassan: And then we put them in front of things and do things to them, and expose them to things and at the end, we spend a couple days maybe, 40% get through it. We spend $140 million on transition. We don't spend any amount of effort to transition them from warrior back to civilian. And we don't use any evidence-based process to look at who is at risk.
▶ 1:24:27Sen. Hassan: So then, we are surprised that some have a problem? We ought to spend a little time looking at those and that is what the commission does. We should spend some time looking at those things that could cause someone to turn into, to have a problem with justice involvement.
▶ 1:24:49Sen. Hassan: Thank you for the indulgence. And thank you for your expertise. I look forward to working with all of you.
▶ 1:24:56Chair Moran: Senator king.
▶ 1:24:59Sen. King: To follow up, I served on the armed services committee. Over the last 10 or 12 years my repeated urging is, I believe the defense department should spend as much time, money and effort on transition as they do on recruiting in. We are making some progress. But nothing like what it ought to be.
▶ 1:25:28Sen. King: Let me ask, the bill that was mentioned, the justice involved veterans back home, the pilot program for the v.a. To provide mental health services for incarcerated veterans. To me that is a gimme. That's obvious. But we have to start with a pilot program. I understand the commission is recommending returning to the 1944 g.I. Bill. The plain language would allow most veterans to access v.a. Services.
▶ 1:25:58Sen. King: Why did the commission make that recommendation? Give me background on that. >> thank you, senator. The commission made the recommendation because there was a huge discussion. We had researchers look at this as the commission did work. In 1944, congress spent weeks looking at who should be eligible for v.a. Benefits when they established the original g.I. Bill and they said only the worst of the worst. Should not get benefits.
▶ 1:26:28Sen. King: Dishonorable discharge. . That was the cut off. That was the rule and over time, by rule, not by the intent of congress, by rule, it has been chipped away. All of a sudden, narrowing the class of citizen who had served, that no longer was eligible for benefits.
▶ 1:26:54Sen. King: So what happened over time, those most in need of benefits are denied benefits. So we said, that --
▶ 1:27:09Sen. King: Like someone who is incarcerated. >> someone incarcerated with a felony conviction loses it. But an example I would use is someone who had military sexual trauma, and becomes a bad soldier because they are dealing with military sexual trauma. They are not showing up to formation.
▶ 1:27:28Sen. King: The commander says this isn't a good soldier, so the -- so they administratively discharged him and give him bad paper because he isn't showing up to work, but not because of the underlying condition. Because they don't have an evidence-based project -- process to look at him. They discharge them and he or she doesn't get health care at the v.a.
▶ 1:27:49Sen. King: To all of you agree that be a health benefits should be available to incarcerated veterans? >> yes.
▶ 1:28:02Sen. King: That is a yes from everybody. The other thing in this bill that goes into the points we talked about before, requiring the v.a. To do the research to find out how many incarcerated veterans there are. To me, that makes a lot of sense. Chief, is that a sensible thing?
▶ 1:28:19Mr. Nuss: I believe it is. As a piggy back to that, senator, I'm in favor, I'm not sure who proposed this during the past year but as you leave the military, you are automatically enrolled with the v.a. You don't have to have that. That should be the case. It is not the case.
▶ 1:28:43Sen. King: We are working on legislation to allow veterans to enroll in ba health care before leaving active duty. I think that a sensible. >> senator, we recommended, the commission recommended automatic enrollment for a two year period. They can currently enroll on an easy form, which everyone I have ever spoken to, it is not easy.
▶ 1:29:08Sen. King: The other thing I'm interested in, the process of restoring benefits after release automatic and timely. As I understand, that can take months and lots of paperwork. Is that the case?
▶ 1:29:25Dr. Goldberg: What I have seen happen is the onus is on the veteran, on the front and to notify the v.a. That they are incarcerated. Many veterans may not be aware that they are supposed to do this. As they are incarcerated, it may not be easy to do that. On the tail end, it is supposed to be an easy process for the veteran to notify the v.a. That they have been released, but often there is a long tail on that.
▶ 1:29:55Dr. Goldberg: The veteran may call and there is a slow back and forth with the v.a. Contacting correctional facilities and the onus falls back on the veteran to go back to the prison to get some kind of documentation. It can spiral into months. As we mentioned, there is data sharing capabilities that are under utilized. This is a government to government process. They are entitled to have that on day one.
▶ 1:30:25Dr. Goldberg: They supposedly get backpay that takes many months or years, as it sometimes happens, but there is no reason that should be the case.
▶ 1:30:32Mr. Nuss: One thing we made progress on because it was in the defense bill that passed last year, if the veteran has an opportunity to opt out of whether their home state veteran service organization is notified they are coming home, in other words instead of having to opt in, which people often don't do because there are so many forms, now it is opt out. We believe and hope that will significantly increase.
▶ 1:31:01Mr. Nuss: My vision is, have somebody meet them at the airport. Have somebody from one of the bso's or the state veteran's office, start the process of here are the services, can we help you find a job? Those kinds of things. I wanted to mention that. A skewer provision in a 2000 page bill but I think that would, now that that is the law, that we would see. .
▶ 1:31:32Mr. Nuss: Progress. Thanks for having this hearing.
▶ 1:31:32Chair Moran: I know have a few questions. Let me first start with the conversation that is involved several members including senator king. The transition assistance program is supposed to help veterans move from active duty to life after active duty.
▶ 1:31:55Chair Moran: I don't think the program, the program has not been sufficiently utilized, supported, emphasized, and I think we are missing a lot of opportunity. I never thought about this in regard to the veteran treatment court until today, but we have been pushing particularly the military to have a higher priority assisting their active-duty men and women during transition.
▶ 1:32:24Chair Moran: A lot of that conversation originates with the concern about, at what point is a servicemember, soon to be veteran, most vulnerable to commit suicide or mental health issues? I think the conclusion is, that is the most fragile time. For a different reason we have been pushing greater involvement by the v.a. And efforts by the military, the department of defense to implement a solid tap program.
▶ 1:32:53Chair Moran: The conversation we have had suggests there may be another opportunity or purpose for tap related to what you are trying to advocate for, the connection between those who served and the world after their service. Anyone want to assist me in fleshing out that thought? >> if I could, sir. Two things on the tap program and why it may be doesn't work.
▶ 1:33:20Chair Moran: I ran the tap program for the army. I'm criticizing myself in some ways. When the commission did its report, we understood the military classified 41% who transitioned in a year's period is not fully prepared. Through the tap program. 22% of those never even attended tap.
▶ 1:33:50Chair Moran: They were congressionally mandated to. Tap has never been robustly evaluated. Many with other than honorable discharges don't attend tap. We know we don't use a validated risk means assessment tool. Part of the reason tap doesn't exist is because what we call the commanders dilemma. I talked about it briefly but we put the commanders in an impossible position.
▶ 1:34:18Chair Moran: It is a position where we say, commander, worry about readiness. And by the way, send them to tap . I was talking to a staffer today whose husband works at davidson army, an aircraft crew chief. He is thinking of getting out. Is his commander going to say, take care of your aircraft permissions, or is he going to send them to tap?
▶ 1:34:47Chair Moran: When push comes to shove, he is going to send him to take care of that aircraft. He may not send him to tap. What we said is, in a case where he really is at risk, if you do a valid risk needs assessment tool, pull him out of the operational force like he was in basic training, where he is not, you have to pull him out. Put him in a joint transition center. Get him the help he needs, and then send him on his way.
▶ 1:35:18Chair Moran: Is the key, if they do a valid assessment? >> it absolutely is. But this is revolutionary. It has to be revolutionary otherwise you can throw more money at it. You can say skill bridge and skill bridge is a wonderful program if you are available. That's always the caveat. Skill bridge, send them to skill bridge. If operational readiness allows.
▶ 1:35:50Chair Moran: Sure it does. But they don't comply. That is what we found time and time again.
▶ 1:35:58Chair Moran: I have heard this before. You had a phrase for it. I have heard this dilemma from generals I know in the neighborhood, that the focus. Is defending the country.
▶ 1:36:11Gen. Macewen: What we have done is we try to come up with a logical solution that solves the problem so you don't put this commander in a paradox that you are asking him to fail.
▶ 1:36:21Chair Moran: Let me go back. Tap has its challenges today for this evident reason. You have to prioritize what a soldier is doing in the last time of service. Is there, if tap is occurring, the transition program is taking place. Is there a role in that process that affects veteran treatment court availability knowledge?
▶ 1:36:50Gen. Macewen: I don't believe so. I would leave that to your classmates to answer.
▶ 1:36:57Chair Moran: They are smarter than I was. >> I don't think so because it would be an issue of timing.
▶ 1:37:08Chair Moran: At that point the problems are not evident.
▶ 1:37:11Maj. Gen. Tate: They just are discovered yet. Even the servicemember and her family don't know the baggage they are carrying. It will take time for that to manifest. I think we also have to be sensitive to the notion that these service members just want to go home. Number one, you put a burden on the commander. There is something else to put on your list. Put it on there with all. The other top priorities.
▶ 1:37:41Maj. Gen. Tate: Secondly, the mindset of the servicemember is I just want to go home. I don't know what the stuff is about. That is why the solution has to be carefully crafted. But I don't think, I don't think part of the separation is, don't forget there are veteran treatment courts out there. That would be hard to do but that advocacy can come elsewhere.
▶ 1:38:03Maj. Gen. Tate: It can come from the creation of a center thanks to congress, part of that creation will be state and local pin beatings a national conveniens, advocacy, and the courts would be a tool to assist the servicemember.
▶ 1:38:18Chair Moran: If you would all help the committee, in a moment we will dismiss you and have two other witnesses take the table where you are. They are high-level officials, one with the department of veterans affairs, the other with the department of corrections. Is there something you would want to make sure we hear from you that would lend itself to an appropriate useful question and answer from our next panel?
▶ 1:38:47Maj. Gen. Tate: I would like to highlight, what an extraordinary program the vjo is. They are committed social workers who every day, get after it. It is a real plus for the v.a. That should be sung to the mountain tops about how good they are.
▶ 1:39:10Maj. Gen. Tate: Critical to their continued success will be training tailored to the vjo's so we ensure not only are they trained when they are new to the job, because it is demanding, especially that the vjo is not the military culture in the background, it is not only newcomer training but it is also the training to sustain your skill set. That is really, to me, two thumbs up for the v.a. And the vjo program.
▶ 1:39:40Maj. Gen. Tate: Thank you, senator.
▶ 1:39:40Dr. Goldberg: If I may echo that and add to that, I would like to enthusiastically support vjo's and the critical role they play. The latest I heard, don't quote me, there may be around 400 vjo 's in the country. I would want to know how many there are. If the staffing is adequate.
▶ 1:40:00Dr. Goldberg: My local vjo is amazing, does terrific work, is on the streets, in the jails every step of the way with veterans and veterans treatment courts. It ties back to our conversation about veterans treatment courts and vjo are largely part of the success of veterans going through that. My understanding is that they are understaffed and overworked and I don't believe their numbers have been increased in years. I know there have been proposals.
▶ 1:40:30Dr. Goldberg: I would be interested to know the number and if there is plans to increase the number of vjo's.
▶ 1:40:38Gen. Macewen: Mr. nuss: I have told vjo's this, what I like about you is that too many times, a government agency says you came to us for help. Here is a stack of documents or pamphlets or booklets for you to read, and if you see something in here you think might apply to you, come back and tell me. And then we will talk about it. The vjo takes the opposite approach.
▶ 1:41:05Gen. Macewen: They can say here is a stack of pamphlets, but I have looked through them also and based on my interview, here are two programs I think you could benefit from. Let's talk about them and see which one would work best for you. The other thing I would say, I think senator tillis set earlier if you have never been to a vtc graduation ceremony, it is well worth your time.
▶ 1:41:32Gen. Macewen: As far as the vjo's go, in johnson county vtc, when the vtc is graduate -- graduate is allowed to speak, they say what it has meant to them and they always go over and hug their vjo , at least the ones I have been to.
▶ 1:41:53Gen. Macewen: That speaks volumes for how important the vjo's are, how well-trained they should be, how much they care about the veterans, and I would like to see more of them. Thank you.
▶ 1:42:06Gen. Macewen: I would say to both government folks as a former government folk, to please be involved in the process for the national center with the department of justice. Because this has to be a whole government approach. It can't be stove piped inside doj. It has to involve everyone if it is going to work, to take care of our veterans.
▶ 1:42:33Chair Moran: Mr. schram. We just heard how important certain people have had a role in your life in this process. I wanted to give you the chance to maybe do a couple things. If you would like to expand on what the program is like that you went through, and if you would like to take a moment, how were you treated differently than someone who is not in a veteran treatment court?
▶ 1:43:02Chair Moran: You may not know that but what are the aspects of that court that made a difference in your life? It may just be that you want to tell us about your mentor, and I want to give you the chance to do that.
▶ 1:43:13Mr. Schramm: I think the program keeps you accountable. I have, I was on and off probation before I went to veterans treatment court. When I showed up I thought I was going to play the system and go through the motion. Boy, was I wrong. To go back on what everyone says about vjo's, my vjo michelle is an amazing person. She gave me the best piece of advice when I was going through when she told me I didn't have to do this.
▶ 1:43:44Mr. Schramm: That wasn't the words I was looking for but it showed me where the path I was going to take, and ed is a legend. He is a great human being. He is the reason my tie looks good today. He was absolute, going through the program. . He helped me guided and used a term called jungle rules that I had to google because I didn't understand. It means the court, that is there rules and you have to abide by it.
▶ 1:44:13Mr. Schramm: That was a great deterrent from even the smallest sanction. I couldn't believe how upset I got, but his words with jungle rules is completely, it took my train of thought elsewhere and started thinking about my actions instead of the overall punishment. Like what I could do better.
▶ 1:44:34Chair Moran: All the questions and stories, your witness to the committee reminds us, reminds me speaking for myself, I believe we change the world one person, one soul at a time. I have that kind of approach -- we need to have that kind of approach for how we deal with people. It is not about a process, it is about a relationship.
▶ 1:45:02Chair Moran: The veteran treatment court, your testimony shows when people care about other people, you can change a life. It is a great story for us to hear. We will change panels. I'm trying to demonstrate my leadership. They turned off the air conditioning because there was some loud noise in the background. It is worth having the noise to have the air conditioning. It is supposedly coming back on. The russians?
▶ 1:45:33Chair Moran: Yeah. >> Mr. chairman, can I say something about what can be done to make veterans aware? This story comes from a vtc graduate in minnesota. He later deployed after he graduated and rehabilitated, and he told the troops in his company about his experience with vtc.
▶ 1:45:58Chair Moran: He said, there is no shame in asking for help, but there is shame in being in handcuffs. He was telling them, if you are struggling, go seek help. Don't wait until it eats you up and you commit a crime. Thank you.
▶ 1:46:15Chair Moran: We are ready to move to the second panel. Thank you for your testimony. Thank you for being here.
▶ 1:50:07Chair Moran: The committee will reconvene for our second panel. The senate has votes at 5:30, so Dr. o'toole is looking at his watch saying he only has to put up with this for a short period of time. Let me welcome Ms. dana digia como, assistant of the federal bureau of prisons, and Dr.
▶ 1:50:36Chair Moran: Thomas o'toole, the acting assistant undersecretary for health and clinical services at the department of veterans affairs. Thank you both for your appearance today. We will start with you. Let's hear what the bureau of prisons has to say.
▶ 1:50:53Ms. Digiacomo: Good afternoon chairman moran, ranking member blumenthal, and and distinguished members of the committee. It is a pleasure to appear before the committee to share the work the federal bureau of prisons is doing to meet the needs of veterans. I am a career employee with nearly 19 years of service in the bureau of prisons including the last eight years and the rendered -- reentry services.
▶ 1:51:25Ms. Digiacomo: On the agency I want to thank you for the opportunity to be here today. It is an honor and a privilege to speak with you. I would like to take a moment to acknowledge the veterans who are part of my life. My family, friends, and colleagues within the bureau of resins. Their service and sacrifice is deeply respected and appreciated. Bop wreck -- recognizes veterans are unique population.
▶ 1:51:52Ms. Digiacomo: The bureau of currently houses approximately 7,652 veterans, many of whom face service related challenges including physical and mental health conditions as well as difficulties adjusting to life after service. Veterans in the bop reflected diverse population across all security levels with the majority classified as low to medium security. Many maintain strong family connections, and a significant portion have achieved a high school diploma or equivalent.
▶ 1:52:24Ms. Digiacomo: These characteristics highlight the need that on the population reinforcing the importance of , targeted programming and support. Bop's statement provides a framework for identifying and supporting incarcerated veterans. Outlines training requirements and service delivery expectations to ensure veterans are properly identified and connected to resources. Identification begins early in the intake process.
▶ 1:52:55Ms. Digiacomo: Staff verify veteran status through documentation like present tense reports and military discharge records. This information is entered into the bop systems and tract or a centralized database, allowing the agency to monitor change -- monitor friends and care. Once identified, veterans are supported through a structured three-tier service delivery model designed to meet their needs at every stage of incarceration.
▶ 1:53:18Ms. Digiacomo: Tier one services provide a foundational support for self-help resources and informational sessions in collaboration with the department of veterans affairs. Tier two services include structured workshops and support that address resilience, wellness and service related challenges like posttraumatic stress and brain injury. Psychology services plays a key role in delivering treatment based on these needs.
▶ 1:53:47Ms. Digiacomo: Tier three services represent the most intensive level of coming for the veterans education transitional services. This is a residential program that operates on a community-based model where participants engage in daily programming focused on education , skill development and peer support.
▶ 1:54:08Ms. Digiacomo: Institutions like fci englewood and the developing unit at fci seagoville demonstrate bop's commitment to expanding these environments and improving continuity of care is veterans transition. In addition to programming, the bop emphasizes staff training to ensure employees understand military culture and the unique needs of our incarcerated veterans.
▶ 1:54:33Ms. Digiacomo: This training supports consistent service delivery and reinforces the bop commitment to this population. Collaboration with external partners is also critical to the success. The bop maintain strong partnerships with the department of veteran affairs and the department of labor to help support the reentry planning and assess the benefits, employment services, and community resources.
▶ 1:54:59Ms. Digiacomo: Additionally, veterans transitioning to residential reentry centers or home confinement are provided the opportunity to engage in activity with the veterans affairs representatives to access benefits, secure services and establish care upon release. These efforts allied with the goals of the first step act by encouraging participation in recidivism-reduction programs and productive activities, and veteran specific programming support skill development, strength and support networks and improves outcomes for individuals preparing to return
▶ 1:55:30Ms. Digiacomo: To the community. Supporting justice involved veterans is not just a policy hierarchy. It is a responsibility. Every individual in our custody deserves a second chance and the opportunity to make meaningful change. Our goal is to ensure that time in our care serves a purpose. Equipping them with the tools, support and opportunities needed to successfully return to their communities. I'm happy to respond to any questions.
▶ 1:55:59Chair Moran: Dr. o'toole.
▶ 1:56:01Dr. O'Toole: Chairman moran, ranking member blumenthal, and members of the committee, thank you for the opportunity to testify today. I am honored to highlight the work the department of veterans affairs is doing to support justice-involved veterans as they navigate the legal system and reenter their communities. Va's veterans justice programs ensures that justice-involved veterans are identified early and connected to va services that support accountability, recovery and long-term stability.
▶ 1:56:31Dr. O'Toole: Vjp specialists engage veterans in courts, jails, prisons, or community settings to encourage responsible decision-making, facilitate behavioral health or other needed care, and support reintegration consistent with community safety. In fiscal year 2025, vjp served more than 60,000 veterans through more than 500 specialists nationwide. For many, meeting a vjp specialist can be a turning point that opens the door to recovery.
▶ 1:56:58Dr. O'Toole: Early engagement helps veterans take responsibility for their actions while accessing treatment and support that -- supporting rehabilitation. For non-violent offenders, veterans treatment courts occupy a critical role in supporting justice-involved veterans by offering a structured, treatment-focused alternative to incarceration. These courts pair judicial oversight with v.a. Supported treatment and case management.
▶ 1:57:23Dr. O'Toole: Vjp specialists work alongside court teams to ensure veterans receive the health care, housing, and support needed to complete their programs successfully. The veterans health care administration's health care for reentry veterans program conducts outreach in federal and state prisons or jails to support veterans preparing for release.
▶ 1:57:45Dr. O'Toole: Hcrv specialists assist with health care enrollment, identification documents, follow-up appointments, and reconnection to va systems that may have lapsed during incarceration. This pre-release engagement is essential to ensuring successful community reintegration.
▶ 1:58:07Dr. O'Toole: The v.a.'s legal services for veterans program strengthens access to civil legal assistance helping veterans address outstanding legal issues, such as housing disputes, benefits matters, or family law concerns that may impede stability and successful reintegration. These services do not remove lawful accountability.
▶ 1:58:27Dr. O'Toole: But rather, they assist veterans to better understand their rights and responsibilities under the law and navigate available resources so they can meet legal obligations, rebuild stability, and pursue self-sufficiency. The vba complements vha's clinical and reentry services by ensuring justice-involved veterans receive information about va benefits and how to apply.
▶ 1:58:50Dr. O'Toole: Through its justice-involved veteran coordinators and homeless veteran outreach coordinators, vba tailors outreach to local needs, referring veterans to federal, state, and community organizations. All va regional offices conduct quarterly, in-person or virtual outreach to veterans are incarcerated at federal, state, and local facilities.
▶ 1:59:13Dr. O'Toole: Benefit information, including -- is disseminated to incarcerated veterans. Vba provides information and training on va benefits and services to community service providers and correctional officials. From october to march of this past year, vba conducted 425 justice-related outreach events, reaching more than 14,000 participants.
▶ 1:59:40Dr. O'Toole: Vba outreach personnel also coordinate outreach efforts for veterans at risk of homelessness who are being discharged or released from a facility after imprisonment. They work closely with vha to provide outreach within 60 days of release to assist with establishing eligibility for v.a. Benefits and services. V.a.
▶ 2:00:06Dr. O'Toole: Strongly supports the department of justice national center for veterans justice, which provides a national opportunity to standardize veteran identification, strengthen data and research capacity, and improve coordination across the criminal justice system. The v.a.'s longstanding collaboration with courts, jails, and prisons form a strong foundation for expanded efforts.
▶ 2:00:28Dr. O'Toole: These collaborations support v.a.'s commitment to the rule of law, safe communities, justice and our commitment to the capacity of veterans to return their communities. We appreciate the committee's attention to these issues and look forward to continuing our work with federal, state, and community organizations. This concludes my testimony. Happy to answer any questions.
▶ 2:00:53Chair Moran: Do you believe the v.a.'s engagement with the bureau of prisons is sufficient? How would you describe it?
▶ 2:01:02Ms. Digiacomo: Thank you for the question. Yes, we have a great partnership with the department of veterans affairs. There staff or their contracted staff come into our facilities quarterly to be able to meet the needs of incarcerated veterans.
▶ 2:01:19Chair Moran: Dr. o'toole, as evidenced by the number of times you have appeared before the committee, you have lots of responsibilities. There are lots of things that you need to pay attention to. Tell me why I should be assured that the veteran treatment courts and the associated programs around them are not something that slips through the crocs.
▶ 2:01:44Dr. O'Toole: Thank you, senator. It is a great question. The short answer is because they work, and because they work for our veterans and bringing them back into the communities, allowing them to lead their fullest lives possible. It is important. We have 515 veteran justice outreach specialists who do god's work. Having been a primary care provider in the v.a.
▶ 2:02:10Dr. O'Toole: For 20 years, shout out to rich flynn at the providence v.a., these guys make a huge difference in reconnecting veterans and heaving them from becoming homeless, getting them back into the workforce, bringing them back to their communities. Our first panel reinforced the reasons why this is what makes the v.a. A special place.
▶ 2:02:31Chair Moran: Tell me about staffing. There has been a lot of talk in this committee since the beginning of last year about staffing at the v.a. We were assured by the department of veterans affairs that the people necessary to fill the responsibilities is sufficient, adequate and doing their job. Is that true in this program?
▶ 2:02:54Dr. O'Toole: I think it is, sir. To level set with some numbers, we currently have 550 -- 515 veteran justice outreach specialists employed at the v.a. We have about a 9% vacancy rate, which for most programs, that is within the norm of expecting an influx. Each medical center is required to have at least one veterans outreach specialist. We have more in most facilities.
▶ 2:03:26Dr. O'Toole: We currently staff 747 veteran treatment courts, as well as go to upwards of 3000 prisons and jails with that staff. We have a budget of $75 million appropriated from congress to do that, and we spend all of that money. The issue that I want to emphasize is, this is a program we would love to see grow. The 747 treatment courts, there is a capacity for many more.
▶ 2:03:58Dr. O'Toole: As the program grows, we will staff accordingly. This is a priority for us. I hope we can grow this program.
▶ 2:04:03Chair Moran: My understanding is fy 25 is the $75 million you mentioned, fy 26 is $82 million. So that has grown. The numbers I have go back to fy 22. So there is interest and support through the appropriations process for this program. Let me ask some specific questions and I will turn to Mr. banks.
▶ 2:04:33Chair Moran: Incarcerated veterans lose access to be a care while in custody. How does the v.a. Provide continuity of care for veterans with serious mental health or substance use conditions upon release?
▶ 2:04:44Dr. O'Toole: It is obviously with senator king's legislation, that is something he is looking at as well and I appreciate congress' interest on this. I previously testified on the hill on the house side for similar legislation. What a person is incarcerated, they become a ward of the state where they are incarcerated. The v.a.
▶ 2:05:10Dr. O'Toole: Does not buy legal authority have the ability to provide care, direct clinical care while they are incarcerated. Our job in the context of the veterans justice outreach and effort is to make sure we can create a seamless transition from when they are released, to get them back into the v.a. As quickly as possible and seamlessly as possible.
▶ 2:05:37Dr. O'Toole: This is where the vjo specialists play a critical role. As I mentioned in my experience, having vjo specialists directly participating in bringing the patient to the clinic and making sure they are plugged in and getting the care they need is a critical case management step that makes a difference. That's just one element of all the work they do to reconnect people. That is why the program works.
▶ 2:06:03Chair Moran: You mentioned your support for the national center for veterans justice. Is there a plan in place to coordinate with doj for that effort?
▶ 2:06:15Dr. O'Toole: There is. I can't speak to all the specifics of the plan but we have dedicated leadership within v.a. That has a long-standing history of working with dj oh and helping with the center and the staffing needs. We look forward to the continuing collaboration.
▶ 2:06:39Sen. Banks: Ms. digiacomo, and you talked generally about the relationship between the bureau, is it just the two of you who communicate? Are there task forces between the two departments? Can you be more specific about the rhythm of communication between the two?
▶ 2:07:05Ms. Digiacomo: Absolutely. As I mentioned in my opening statement, we have the three-tiered model. We have veterans scattered across the bureau of prisons. Those that are at institutions under our tier one model, we have self-help resources. We have staff that are dedicated that our institutions, whether it is our special population coordinators, individuals helping special populations like incarcerated veterans.
▶ 2:07:33Ms. Digiacomo: We have reentry affairs coordinators who are also assisting the population. Those individuals are reaching out directly to the local v.a. Points of contact they have who are working collaboratively together at the local level in the community, and which are institutions --
▶ 2:07:52Sen. Banks: Is this something new?
▶ 2:07:54Ms. Digiacomo: I don't know the history. As long as I have been in the reentry services division, this has happened as far as this collaboration and working directly with the v.a.. . I think that's what separates the bureau of prisons from some of the state systems that we are both at the federal level.
▶ 2:08:13Ms. Digiacomo: So we have the ability to share data more easily, such as when individuals come into our custody, not only are we asking if they served and we are looking at their reports, but we are making outreach to the v.a. For datasharing to cross reference, which makes our communication between the two I think a little easier than maybe for the state level.
▶ 2:08:36Sen. Banks: Would you say it works?
▶ 2:08:37Ms. Digiacomo: Absolutely.
▶ 2:08:39Sen. Banks: What do we need to do better between communication and collaboration between the two?
▶ 2:08:43Ms. Digiacomo: I think communication --
▶ 2:08:48Sen. Banks: What are you working on?
▶ 2:08:49Ms. Digiacomo: One thing we are working on is resources. It is no surprise the bureau of prisons is in desperate need of resources. We need more people to help in this area. We would love to have support coordinators at every one of our institutions to help the population.
▶ 2:09:07Sen. Banks: Specifically work with veterans?
▶ 2:09:11Ms. Digiacomo: Yes, sir.
▶ 2:09:14Chair Moran: I think like you do is important -- I think what you do is important. Incarceration leads to homelessness and homelessness drives incarceration. It is true among everybody. Can you talk about the bureau of prisons national reentry strategy and how that aims to break the cycle?
▶ 2:09:35Ms. Digiacomo: Absolutely. This goes for everyone in our custody. The bureau of prisons takes a holistic approach at each individual that comes into our custody, looking at their needs. Everyone comes in with a different set of needs and we try to build off the strengths they have so we start thereby looking at, what are the needs, what got them here? What are the gaps that need to be filled?
▶ 2:10:01Ms. Digiacomo: How do we approach filling those gaps, whether it is through educational programming, is it with programming as it relates to trauma, ptsd. Making sure they get the programming that will set them up.
▶ 2:10:17Ms. Digiacomo: Another great thing with bureau of prisons that separates us from state correction agencies is the fact that we have a reentry transition into the communities of individuals in our custody, all of our offenders have the ability under the second chance act transition to their community but your they are released. -- before they are released. They are able to live in the community before they are released and that makes the transition and reentry much easier.
▶ 2:10:46Sen. Banks: I introduced legislation that permanently authorized the health care for homeless veterans program. It provides medical care for homeless veterans and connects them to housing. How important is it to make that program permanent?
▶ 2:11:01Dr. O'Toole: Thank you, senator. I think it is very important. The v.a. Has made significant strides in reducing homelessness. One of the reasons why is because we are an integrated system and an integrated model that is able to connect housing with needed health care services, legal services, as demonstrated here, needed social
▶ 2:11:34Dr. O'Toole: Services. To emphasize that point within the context of the veteran justice program, 81% of individuals enrolled in the veteran justice program are diagnosed with a mental health program. 56% with a substance abuse program -- problem. As a result of being enrolled, 94% of those individuals with mental health diagnoses go on to receive health care within the v.a. System.
▶ 2:11:57Dr. O'Toole: Mental health in the previous year, that is 17 visits per patient for substance use treatment, it is 15 visits per pair -- per patient. That is a meaningful difference that would not occur if we didn't have an integrated approach. So absolutely I endorse what you're saying.
▶ 2:12:13Sen. Banks: My time is expired.
▶ 2:12:16Chair Moran: Let me make sure I understand something. Most of our conversations about veterans treatment courts, the vast extent of it will be veteran treatment courts in state courts. Is that true? This may not be the panel to ask, but I think that's true. I think there are very few federal courts that have a veteran treatment court.
▶ 2:12:44Chair Moran: Is what you are talking to us about, the federal corrections facilities, they are dealing with veterans absent the veteran treatment court? You are just taking care of veterans without the services that come in a courtroom between a veteran and the state district judge, is what I think where we are. Is that right?
▶ 2:13:08Ms. Digiacomo: I'm probably not the appropriate person to speak of how the courts work. . But I can say is, I'm sure some of these individuals made their way through some type of veterans court previously before coming into our system but often times their military service is taken into account in any recommendation being given by the federal judge in regards to the services the incarcerated veteran may need, the bureau of prisons does our best to make sure we are responding to those
▶ 2:13:40Ms. Digiacomo: Recommendations from the court.
▶ 2:13:40Chair Moran: So the veterans you deal with in the federal bureau of prisons are veterans who you learn our veterans, and try to provide them additional support and help, where you are trying to follow a federal judge's direction on how the veteran should be careful?
▶ 2:14:00Ms. Digiacomo: Yes, sir.
▶ 2:14:01Chair Moran: Ok. Anything else, senator banks? I want to once again thank our witnesses, this panel and the previous, for their testimony today. Our committee and our members who were here and our audience who participated as well. Each member has five legislative days in which to submit statements or questions from the record.
▶ 2:14:25Chair Moran: Any senator who would like to submit a question for the record, do so in a timely manner and ask witnesses to respond to any questions they have received following today's hearing in a timely manner as well. With that, the hearing is adjourned. Thank you.