▶ 0:24:46Chair Crapo: Today we are having our hearing on the irs 2026 filing season and the irs organization. Thank you, Mr. bisignano, for appearing before the finance committee today in your capacity as the chief executive officer of the internal revenue service. On tax day today, I look forward to hearing from you about driving taxpayer first outcomes at the irs will implement in the working families tax cuts and delivering larger refunds.
▶ 0:25:17Chair Crapo: As you well know it from the, private sector there are always critics especially when running the day-to-day operations of an agency historically ranked as one of the least favorite and most distrusted by the american public. Your distinguished private experience in leading institutions through crises, modernization, and transformation are the exact skill set that the irs needs right now. We welcome your insights on how the irs can better serve american taxpayers.
▶ 0:25:47Chair Crapo: This hearing comes at a consequential moment. Last year, president trump and congressional republicans acted to prevent the largest tax increase in american history. Andy 2017 tax cuts expired, taxpayers earning less than $400,000 would have faced a more than $2.6 trillion tax hike over the next decade. Let me say that again.
▶ 0:26:13Chair Crapo: Taxpayers making less than $400,000, and most of them making well less than $400,000, would have faced a more than $2.6 trillion tax hike over the next decade. Not only did republicans make those tax cuts permanent, but the working families tax cuts act also delivered significant new middle class tax relief.
▶ 0:26:40Chair Crapo: Implementing the new provision from the working families tax cuts in time for this filing season was no small task. Indeed a few months ago there was no shortage of commentators predicting a major disruption. With the individual tax filing deadline today, the results are now in, and the data speak for themselves. The filing season opened on time.
▶ 0:27:05Chair Crapo: Due april 10, the irs received about 120 million returns and issued about 80 million refunds, millions more than last year. Average refunds increased about 11% to over $3400, and refunds totaled almost $274 billion, tens of billions more than last year. While no filing season is perfect, the 2026 filing season has proceeded smoothly for tens of millions of americans.
▶ 0:27:35Chair Crapo: Indeed the lack of a major disruption has required some of your critics to change their tune. In an attempt to avoid giving you credit, they now attribute this filing season's success to work that happened over a year ago. However, that shifting narrative ignores the book that you have let at the irs to build the technology necessary to implement the working families tax cuts.
▶ 0:28:02Chair Crapo: New provisions for tips, over, car loan interest, and senior deductions were claimed on over 53 million returns. Nearly half of all filings. These figures indicate that the irs has done its job to ensure delivery of significant, new middle class tax relief.
▶ 0:28:25Chair Crapo: It's also a testament to the skilled and dedicated irs employees who work to ensure tens of millions of americans have received their refund promptly and accurately this filing season. Looking forward, the iris modernization and combating fraud in the tax system issues remain top priorities for this committee. Excuse me. Two pages stuck together.
▶ 0:28:58Chair Crapo: I look forward to hearing what steps the irs is taking to make improvements in these areas. On the topic of modernization, ranking member wyden and I recently introduced the taxpayer assistance and service act, tas act. This bill includes 64 common sense provisions drawn from finance committee member proposals and the national taxpayer advocate recommendations.
▶ 0:29:25Chair Crapo: The tas act would improve taxpayer experiences and improve taxpayer rights. It has broad support across the tax community, and I'm glad to be able to work with my colleagues to advance it. Mr. bisignano, I look forward to working with you and the treasury department to modernize the irs to benefit all taxpayers. Thank you again for appearing today.
▶ 0:29:48Sen. Wyden: Thank you, Mr. chairman. Mr. chairman and colleagues, it is april 15 in america. Tax day. Americans have gone through all kinds of headaches associated with filing their taxes.
▶ 0:30:05Sen. Wyden: Adding to the headache, millions are frustrated that republicans and the trump administration specifically killed the direct file program for the year and put those workers back at the mercy of the tax software giants who overcharge for a service that ought to be free.
▶ 0:30:29Sen. Wyden: It's a reminder that donald trump operates pretty much the entire government on the same basic, corrupt approach, to benefit himself and his friends, to punish those that he dislikes. And particularly to degrade public service, no matter the cost to typical people. He's handling of the irs is a perfect example of all three.
▶ 0:30:59Sen. Wyden: Direct file in america died on Mr. bisignano's watch. Shutting it down was a big gift to the republican-allied prep giants who lobbied relentlessly.
▶ 0:31:16Sen. Wyden: I remember years when they spent millions lobbying for the status quo, rather than giving americans a shot at what people have all over the western world, which is a simple way to file their taxes because the government already has the information. These rent seekers are engaged in a multibillion-dollar ripoff year after year. Unfortunately, donald trump is on their side.
▶ 0:31:47Sen. Wyden: So he asked continually in self interest. Right now, he is suing the irs and treasury department for $10 billion over the leak of his own tax returns. During his second term, his administration is violating the exact same taxpayer privacy laws that underpin his lawsuit by illegally leaking tens of thousands of taxpayer records to ice.
▶ 0:32:12Sen. Wyden: Hypocrisy is not the only problem, it's a conflict of interest for trump staff at the treasury department, irs, doj, and it is an enormous one. The powerful and unstable man they work for is suing the agency they lead, in charge of deciding whether the taxpayer, the american taxpayer is on the hook to pay out.
▶ 0:32:36Sen. Wyden: I believe this is a depth of corruption that would have been unthinkable during the first 248 years of our history. Now, it seems to be routine stuff for donald trump. Let me talk briefly about the irs's data sharing agreement with ice. I have been warning for a year that this would lead to serious mistakes and violations of taxpayer privacy laws.
▶ 0:33:06Sen. Wyden: That is exactly what has come to pass. There is a strong likelihood this system misidentified taxpayers and sent ice to hunt down innocent people who may now be sitting in camps or worse. This is not an overstated danger. Countless families have had their lives ruined as a result of the trump mass deportation campaign. 46 people died in ice custody since january 2025.
▶ 0:33:36Sen. Wyden: There are a lot of reasons to protect taxpayer data. One reason is it helps to promote trust in our system. If people believe filing taxes will lead to their abuse or detainment by the state, they are not going to comply. Noncompliance is a disaster. It criminalizes people who would otherwise be on the right side of the law and it also drives up the deficit.
▶ 0:34:03Sen. Wyden: Those may be the unspoken goals of this administration as donald trump and republicans seek to justify mass deportations and further cuts to essential priorities like health and food stamps. On the subject of degrading public service, there is little doubt the numbers will show irs customer service has gotten worse as a result of doge and trump layoffs.
▶ 0:34:30Sen. Wyden: The trump administration decision, for example, to phase out paper checks for tax refunds has cause real problems and delays for millions of vulnerable americans. These are people that don't have bank account to take direct deposits. It was pretty obvious the situation was coming, but the irs did no outreach to avoid it. Now, a whole lot of americans who count every spring on timely refunds to make ends meet are in trouble.
▶ 0:35:00Sen. Wyden: With filing season ending, I'm sure the committee will hear some trump administration spin about the whole refund question. The reality is the tax law is a done for the vast majority of working people. Refunds are not anywhere near the original republican goal. Any benefit people get from the law is swamped by inflation resulting from tariffs. An additional cost with the war with iran.
▶ 0:35:25Sen. Wyden: People coming out on top, as is always the case, are the super wealthy. Millions of people have found that the trump economic agenda is a loser for them. Most regressive economic policy that they have ever seen. I will close on this. This committee has held the filing season hearing on many occasions.
▶ 0:35:51Sen. Wyden: To my knowledge, this is the first such hearing where the witness has no real authority to talk about the subject because they don't actually have a senate confirmed role that the irs -- at the irs or treasury department. Mr. bisignano is called the chief executive officer of the irs. My view is that the ceo job is fate, running around a real vetting process for a nominee, which is a way for president trump and Mr. bessent to have control over the irs.
▶ 0:36:22Sen. Wyden: As for Mr. bisignano come his reason appeared before the ways and means committee chairman didn't do a lot to convince everybody the irs is in good hands. Even the republicans in the other bodies were unsatisfied. He has an actual job running social security. By the way, that's another agency in crisis due to mismanagement. I believe the individual with us, Mr. bisignano, ought to be focused on cleaning up that social security mess.
▶ 0:36:50Sen. Wyden: Over the past 15 months, the administration laid off more than 7500 social security employees which worsened americans access to benefits and gave doge free reign to pilfer in the most sensitive data. As of a few weeks ago, we learned a former doge staff are downloaded onto a personal thumb drive a copy of the social security's tightly restricted databases of americans personal information.
▶ 0:37:17Sen. Wyden: So my colleagues and I have repeatedly urged the chair of this committee to hold a hearing to dig in to these important issues. These issues for working families and seniors, disabled are just about the most important thing in their lives. But republicans, no hearings. Basically just no. I don't think that's right. This is Mr.
▶ 0:37:43Sen. Wyden: Bisignano's first appeared before the committee since his confirmation last may and is not even focused on the agency that he was actually nominated to lead. I find every single bit of this unacceptable. We have a lot to do here, Mr. chairman. Thank you.
▶ 0:38:01Chair Crapo: Thank, senator wyden. We will not proceed to you, Mr. bisignano. Please proceed with your statement. Pull the microphone a little closer.
▶ 0:38:23Mr. Bisignano: Chairman crapo, ranking member wyden, members of the committee, I'm proud to be here today, april 15, the annual tax filing deadline, to discuss the filing season and the irs operations. Since becoming irs ceo in october of last year, we have transformed the taxpayer experience.
▶ 0:38:45Mr. Bisignano: This year, tax they hold a special importance because working families across our nation are benefiting from progrowth tax policies like never before. Let me be crystal clear. This is the most successful filing season in irs history. This is thanks to president trump, sec.
▶ 0:39:08Mr. Bisignano: Bessent, and congressional republicans in securing passage of the working families tax cuts. This landmark legislation forms the cornerstone of the administration's growth agenda. The latest numbers tell the story. The irs has received more than 130 4 million individual income tax returns with more than 98% of them filed electronically.
▶ 0:39:40Mr. Bisignano: We have issued more than 80 million refunds with 98% of those refunds sent electronically via direct deposit. More than 90% of taxpayers who filed electronically received their refund in less than 21 days. The average refund amount is over 3400, up by 11%.
▶ 0:40:08Mr. Bisignano: The total amount of refunds we have issued now stands at over $280 billion, 16% higher than last year. This is real relief going out to working americans and their families. Thanks to the new landmark policies, more than 53 million americans have already experienced new financial benefits.
▶ 0:40:36Mr. Bisignano: These provisions include no tax on tips, no tax on overtime, no tax on car loan interests, and a special deduction for seniors which has already been claimed more than 30 million times.
▶ 0:40:53Mr. Bisignano: In addition, provisions from president trump's 2017 tax bill, such as the increased standard deduction, increased child tax credit, and full expensing for capital investments were made permanent. All of this prevented a tax increase of over $5 trillion on american families and small businesses.
▶ 0:41:22Mr. Bisignano: Many of these provisions have bipartisan support, and each of your constituents will see the benefits. Another hallmark of the bill is the trump accounts. Which will provide families a financial head start their children.
▶ 0:41:41Mr. Bisignano: Families have signed up more than 5 million children for the accounts, of which more than one million children are covered by elections for the $5,000 trump account pilots program contribution. Along with filing season and other day-to-day operations, we are transforming the agency to meet taxpayers where they want to be met, creating a digital irs.
▶ 0:42:12Mr. Bisignano: This transformation is not just an operational need, it's a modern-day responsibility. It helps us address noncompliance, provides taxpayers with 24/7 access, and safeguards there sensitive financial data.
▶ 0:42:29Mr. Bisignano: This filing season, visits to irs.gov are up 60% to more than a half billion inquiries, coinciding with decreased phone demand. I am proud of the role of the irs has played in delivering this historic level of tax relief.
▶ 0:42:56Mr. Bisignano: Our dedicated career employees work tirelessly to prepare for this filing season and have already begun preparing for next year's filing season. I want to thank each one of them for their work on behalf of the american people. Our long-term goal for taxpayers is simple. Create a seamless customer experience where taxpayers can interact with the irs with the same ease they expect from the private sector.
▶ 0:43:27Mr. Bisignano: We are building an irs that leverages advanced technology, empowers its workforce with better tools, and delivers secure and easily accessible services. In closing, I want to thank republicans for the passage of president trump's working families tax cuts, laying the groundwork for an historic filing season. Mr. chairman, I'm happy to take questions.
▶ 0:43:54Chair Crapo: Thank you very much, Mr. bisignano. As the agency responsible for implementing the president's working families tax cuts act, you have very, very well explain the benefits it provides. I want you to highlight a couple for us again right now.
▶ 0:44:14Chair Crapo: These are new tax relief that americans were given in the bill in addition to the tax relief we gave them by not letting their existing taxes increase. Could you please give me the latest irs data on how many taxpayers have claimed the no tax on overtime, no tax on tips, no tax on social security, and american car interest loan deductions?
▶ 0:44:42Chair Crapo: Also would like you to do this quickly because I have another question. Could you tell me the same data on how many people have opened trump accounts, and of those that have received the $1000 seed funding?
▶ 0:44:53Mr. Bisignano: The landmark legislation led by president trump and sec. Bessent and the republicans now has over 53 million americans who have had a deduction from it. 30 million actually the senior benefit. 6 million filers have had no tax on tips.
▶ 0:45:24Mr. Bisignano: 25 million filers, no tax on overtime, and over 30 million seniors, as I said, one million for the car loan deduction. When you look at all of this, it's the reason we talk about the historic refunds. The largest amount of refunds, $80 million going out, over $280 million -- billion dollars in refunds.
▶ 0:45:55Mr. Bisignano: We have 10% more people receiving a refund this year. While refunds on the absolute are up 11%, total refunds paid out are up 16%. For trump accounts, another landmark legislation which is creating generations of the future's ability to be financially savvy and be able to participate.
▶ 0:46:25Mr. Bisignano: 5 million have been opened up for dependents. One million for newborns this year already. Our expectation is that will continue greatly.
▶ 0:46:35Chair Crapo: I appreciate that. My next question, I like to give you a chance to respond directly to the attack you have already street today, previously received for pausing the direct file program at the irs.
▶ 0:46:50Chair Crapo: My understanding is that an october treasury report found the irs significantly misrepresented the direct file cost and that in fact, notwithstanding the cost of that program to the U.S. taxpayers, about 70% of U.S. taxpayers are already eligible to use existing irs refile programs, a public-private partnership, at no cost to them or to the government at all.
▶ 0:47:23Chair Crapo: Could you give me your response to this?
▶ 0:47:25Mr. Bisignano: Thank you, chairman. We have seen this filing season over 2 million taxpayers have taken advantage of free file during this filing season. Millions more have used free option provided by private industry also. Direct file was a costly, unnecessary, and less popular duplicate of programs that already in place.
▶ 0:47:52Mr. Bisignano: Despite heavy promotion by the biden administration, direct file was by far the least used free filing option. To put it in real terms, Mr. chairman, the irs spent more than $72 million to develop and implement the duplicated system that nearly all individual taxpayers did not use. This works out to a cost of more than 200 $42 four filed returns.
▶ 0:48:21Mr. Bisignano: More than 60% costlier than the irs estimates for an average individual prepared return. Part of the common sense actions I have taken as the ceo of the irs, it only makes sense to take the resources that were being wasted on duplicative products and not getting used, and bolster the enhanced programs that have worked for taxpayers.
▶ 0:48:48Chair Crapo: Thank. Senator wyden.
▶ 0:48:51Sen. Wyden: Let's be clear on direct file. Direct file is working very well today, taxpayers love it, and all the data shows that, and they don't like what you are doing. So we're clear on that. Let's begin with questions with respect to some of the issues relating to the illegal disclosures of tax information.
▶ 0:49:11Sen. Wyden: Ice, of all people, a federal judge found the federal government unlawfully disclosed taxpayer information to ice in nearly 40 3000 cases. Mr. bisignano, I want to start with a couple of yes or no questions. Have the affected taxpayers, people who face this illegal sharing of their information, have they been notified that their confidential tax information was illegally shared? Yes or no answer.
▶ 0:49:40Mr. Bisignano: Thank you for the question, senator. As you know, there is ongoing litigation and and I will not comment on ongoing litigation.
▶ 0:49:49Sen. Wyden: The district judge who reviewed the procedures found they were illegal. Yes, there are activities going on, but somebody has to stand up for these people. It sure doesn't look like it will be you. When you testified before the ways and means committee, you said no one was fired or disciplined over this. Is that still true today? Americans need to know. You have an illegal share of taxpayer data. Did you do anything about it?
▶ 0:50:17Mr. Bisignano: As I said, there is ongoing litigation. In fact, you know, there have been rulings that the mou was legal, but I will not debate ongoing litigation.
▶ 0:50:30Sen. Wyden: You have a federal judge who said it was illegal. It seems to me that at least should cause you all to wake up from the slumber down there and stand up for people. Does the irs know who and how many people have been detained or deported as a result of the data sharing program with ice? So americans understand what is going on here, their data is being shared with ice, personal data, important data. You say, well, we are waiting around.
▶ 0:51:02Sen. Wyden: Maybe some court will tell us something someday. How about the answer to that question?
▶ 0:51:06Mr. Bisignano: What is your question?
▶ 0:51:08Sen. Wyden: Same thing. Does the irs know who and how many people have been detained or deported as a result of the data sharing program with ice?
▶ 0:51:17Mr. Bisignano: As I said, there is ongoing litigation. We will not comment on ongoing litigation, sir.
▶ 0:51:24Sen. Wyden: Ok, you can set it on all you want, but these are americans who are angry. They don't get up in the morning and say, let's wait around after our data has been illegally shared. They say somebody better do something about it. That is what we give people election certificates to do.
▶ 0:51:43Sen. Wyden: Trump's irs illegally shares sensitive tax information that I have been asking about, but at the same time, he is suing the irs for $10 billion over his returns being released over his first term. Now it is under the watch of his own treasury secretary and irs commissioner. Yes or no, have you been involved in any discussion of the lawsuit or a possible settlement?
▶ 0:52:05Mr. Bisignano: No.
▶ 0:52:07Sen. Wyden: Are you going to recommend that the U.S. taxpayer pay him? That is something that is within the province of your duties. What are you going to recommend, recommend that the U.S. taxpayers pay him?
▶ 0:52:19Mr. Bisignano: Actually this is not in the irs. It is at doj.
▶ 0:52:25Sen. Wyden: Should U.S. taxpayers pay donald trump on this matter? Yes or no question.
▶ 0:52:31Mr. Bisignano: I am not involved in the matter.
▶ 0:52:34Sen. Wyden: What is your opinion?
▶ 0:52:36Mr. Bisignano: I do not rendering opinions on things I'm not involved in.
▶ 0:52:40Sen. Wyden: What advice did you get when your ethics office on this?
▶ 0:52:44Mr. Bisignano: Advice from a ethics office from this being what?
▶ 0:52:49Sen. Wyden: This is a conflict of interest on the part of the president. One of the most flagrant conflicts of interest I've seen in all my time in public service. Did your ethics office give you an opinion? Maybe they give you one and you didn't read it.
▶ 0:53:03Mr. Bisignano: The opinion is in the doj, not the irs.
▶ 0:53:07Sen. Wyden: Give me your opinion. Your opinion counts because you have an important position. You are ostensibly somebody who is supposed to be doing stuff. Let me ask you one last question. My understanding from the press is that you require rank-and-file staff to show up every single day, and yet at the same time, you get on a private jet to come two days a week. Is that true?
▶ 0:53:32Mr. Bisignano: That is completely inaccurate.
▶ 0:53:34Sen. Wyden: Thank you, Mr. chairman.
▶ 0:53:37Chair Crapo: Senator bennet.
▶ 0:53:41Sen. Bennet: Thank you, Mr. bisignano, for being here today. I don't really understand what the reluctance is to be able to allow taxpayers in colorado to -- across this country, to pay their taxes with a pre-populated form, like people have in other countries all over the world, for decades and decades and decades.
▶ 0:54:09Sen. Bennet: People in other places all across the oecd countries, frankly all across the world have been able to pay their taxes so much more efficiently with so much less red tape, with so much less bureaucracy. Now it sounds like we are going in the wrong direction. Could you explain why it is that we cannot seem to get basic technology?
▶ 0:54:35Mr. Bisignano: Bye would you say we are going in the wrong direction?
▶ 0:54:43Sen. Bennet: The pre-populated forms that people are able, as a matter of course, places from australia to the oecd countries, people in america don't have the chance to do. Direct file -- you answered your question to the chairman about direct file, but that was something very popular with the american people. Something that gave them the chance to more expeditiously file their returns. I'm not saying it was perfect, that's not my point.
▶ 0:55:14Sen. Bennet: Why is it so hard for us to deliver the basic level of customer service that the rest of the world enjoys? That is a question I have as to your predecessors, not just you.
▶ 0:55:27Mr. Bisignano: Thank you for the question. Thank you for taking the time to explain it. If you look at this tax season, even the stats will tell you, 98% of our filings were electronic. 98% of americans received their direct deposit within 21 days or less. Those are the best stats we have ever had in terms of performance.
▶ 0:55:58Mr. Bisignano: If you look at what is going on with refunds, is largest refund. We have had the highest volume and in fact the fastest payments to americans. That is just pure fax. -- facts. 80 million americans, 10% more than last year.
▶ 0:56:18Mr. Bisignano: When you look at the filing season, and there was a leaked inspector general report that actually said phone servicing was over 40% better this year than last.
▶ 0:56:31Sen. Bennet: What is the reason not to have two make it easier?
▶ 0:56:36Mr. Bisignano: I am talking about ways that we are making it easier. If you look at 500 million online inquiries by taxpayers, that is hundreds of millions more because we created tremendous capability. That is the good career working technologist at the irs.
▶ 0:56:56Sen. Bennet: My problem is not with the people working at the irs. Although I have some question about whether or not they are in the right place right now. The thing that is so shocking to me, we are making it harder for people, working people to file their returns than in other countries around the world. That is indisputable.
▶ 0:57:21Sen. Bennet: You can read all of these statistics, but it is indisputable that it is much easier in australia to file your taxes for working people to pick one place than it is in the united states of america. We are making it harder than other places for working people.
▶ 0:57:39Sen. Bennet: At the same time, the estimates are that the lack of cops on the beat at the irs will cost the treasury $646 billion in unpaid taxes by the wealthiest people in america, contributing to the $38 trillion deficit that we have, debt that we have in this nation.
▶ 0:58:03Sen. Bennet: But either way, I remember you saying, when we met before your confirmation, you were deeply concerned about the level of national debt in this country. It is 38 trillion dollars. A lot of that is the completely unpaid for tax bill that is the trump tax bill. What do you say about the 640 seven billion dollars of uncollected revenue? Taxes that people owe in this nation.
▶ 0:58:29Mr. Bisignano: First of all, one thing I would say, we need to figure out, you were talking about the tax gap. What I have seen is that no one has ever worked on the tax gap. We have to decide what is the addressable tax cgap? Enforcement revenue is up 12% this year. The top five cases this year are $2 billion.
▶ 0:58:58Mr. Bisignano: I am making a point because, in fact, we are going to work equally on every bad actor.
▶ 0:59:05Sen. Bennet: What we just heard from Mr. chairman, was testimony that said nobody has ever worked on the tax gap. I think it is long overdue that the irs should be collecting taxes from the wealthiest people in this country. The head of the irs says they are not doing that.
▶ 0:59:22Mr. Bisignano: That is not what I said.
▶ 0:59:24Chair Crapo: We all agree we should address the tax gap. I think he said he is.
▶ 0:59:31Sen. Bennet: Thank you for interpreting.
▶ 0:59:34Chair Crapo: Senator welch.
▶ 0:59:40Sen. Welch: Thank you very much. Welcome. What was the deficit number one president trump took office in january 2025?
▶ 0:59:49Mr. Bisignano: I don't know.
▶ 0:59:51Sen. Welch: Do you know what it is today?
▶ 0:59:54Mr. Bisignano: I am not tracking it.
▶ 0:59:56Sen. Wyden: I want to follow up on some of the questions that my colleague from colorado asked.
▶ 1:00:02Sen. Welch: In enforcement, we have a chart here, there has been significant cuts in staff or enforcement. This chart here shows 25% loss in staff lead to longer wait times. I understand that you dispute that but this is our experiments -- experience in vermont. $598 billion in lost revenue from doge layoffs.
▶ 1:00:33Sen. Welch: Do you want to contest that?
▶ 1:00:36Mr. Bisignano: First thing I would say is, the inspector general would say phone servicing performed 40% better. Secondly, we have 12% more enforcement revenue year to date than we had before.
▶ 1:00:56Sen. Welch: Let me interrupt for a second. You believe it is absolutely essential that the irs enforce collection, particularly --
▶ 1:01:10Mr. Bisignano: 100%.
▶ 1:01:13Sen. Welch: One of your predecessors in the trump administration, you know him. He says that while he described the agency as outgunned by wealthy well advised taxpayers, Mr. reding estimated the tax gap, which of the different between taxes owed and taxes paid, was approaching $1 trillion a year.
▶ 1:01:40Sen. Welch: That is from a trump appointee who shares her concern about collection. What is your number? What number do you think is not collected?
▶ 1:01:51Mr. Bisignano: The last reported tax gap was 650. I think we are undergoing a review of what is the actual addressable tax and how to close that gap.
▶ 1:02:02Sen. Welch: The review has to be done. There is a well-known tax gap. That is something that your predecessor in the trump administration acknowledged. $1 trillion a year. That has to freak you out. What are you doing about it?
▶ 1:02:20Mr. Bisignano: Like I said come last reported one was 650. He was protecting out. There was no document produced. 650 is big enough, so we don't need to debate the trillion.
▶ 1:02:34Sen. Welch: But here is what is happening. A number of staff assigned has diminished. There were the doge cuts that did a lot of damage to the organizational structure and the morale. You didn't do this, this is something you inherited, but it is something you have to address. Mr. reddick says we have a trillion dollars in the tax gap. That is totally unacceptable. Pay their bills.
▶ 1:03:00Mr. Bisignano: Secondly, what we have done is bring a ton of technology.
▶ 1:03:06Sen. Welch: We need to bring in a ton of money from people who owe it, not a ton of technology.
▶ 1:03:13Mr. Bisignano: 500,000 we collected the other day, $250 million from the top five cases, $2 billion.
▶ 1:03:23Sen. Welch: I'm all in favor of that, you have successes that you have talked to. But if there is a gap -- and this is not my number, this is from the wall street journal quoted Mr. reddick, your predecessor.
▶ 1:03:35Mr. Bisignano: That is a paper talking about a number that's never been produced. I don't want to use that for my baseline.
▶ 1:03:42Sen. Welch: We have a yellow budget lab that studies this with phd, notice, we have a former irs tax commissioner who presented the number of trillion dollars. The real question is, when you return to this committee, senator crapo, senator wyden, we want that number to be as close to zero as possible.
▶ 1:04:04Mr. Bisignano: What you'll have is a plan to drive number down and the resources allocated, technology.
▶ 1:04:10Sen. Welch: We don't want to ton of technology, we don't want a plan, we want plan, we w people who owe taxes to the united states treasury to pay taxes.
▶ 1:04:20Mr. Bisignano: How long have you been telling people to work on the tax gap?
▶ 1:04:24Sen. Welch: Don't I get to ask questions here?
▶ 1:04:27Mr. Bisignano: I'm just wondering because you are making it sound like it was worked on diligently ever. It's about to be for the first time.
▶ 1:04:35Sen. Welch: Here is the reality, ok? The new trump administration came in and eviscerated the staffing at the irs. It also changed its policy on audits on the very wealthy individuals. It's incredibly complicated, those audits, things that wealthy people can do to avoid stating whether income is inflate their expenses. That has happened. Mr.
▶ 1:05:03Sen. Welch: Reddick has acknowledged it was so great, it got up to a trillion. That is the problem that is the responsibility and burden you have to address and get that number down. Thank you.
▶ 1:05:14Mr. Bisignano: Nobody has been fired from everybody retired voluntarily.
▶ 1:05:19Sen. Welch: I yelled back. Thank you, Mr. chairman.
▶ 1:05:23Chair Crapo: Senator whitehouse.
▶ 1:05:26Sen. Whitehouse: Thank. I am told administrator bisig nano will not answer any questions related to the social security administration while he is before the committee. That doesn't seem like a great rule. I don't know if the chair has approved that refusal to not answer questions on that subject.
▶ 1:05:47Chair Crapo: This is an irs hearing, not a social security hearing.
▶ 1:05:51Sen. Whitehouse: Does that mean that we don't get to ask questions about social security demonstration?
▶ 1:05:56Chair Crapo: You can ask whatever questions you want. I leave it up to the witness as to what he will answer.
▶ 1:06:02Sen. Whitehouse: Will you answer?
▶ 1:06:05Mr. Bisignano: If you want to ask me a question.
▶ 1:06:09Sen. Wyden: That is a yes or no question, would you answer?
▶ 1:06:14Mr. Bisignano: I will definitely answer.
▶ 1:06:16Sen. Whitehouse: It is pretty simple. You and I have talked about the subject of protecting the data of the social security administration. When we first spoke, you said you would do a complete review, to the extent that I called the doggy boys had come in and x will traded data from the social security administration. You then reported back that it looked like there have been no problem, data was sound.
▶ 1:06:43Sen. Whitehouse: Since then, there have been multiple reports of doggy boy people having removed the significant amounts of data from the death list and others, x will traded done when they're left to provide some to private-sector employers and so forth. Would you like to update us on what your review has shown?
▶ 1:07:06Mr. Bisignano: That review has been fully put in front of the ranking member and the chairman staff have been reviewed with them.
▶ 1:07:18Sen. Whitehouse: And what can you assure us about what social security data has been exfiltrated?
▶ 1:07:27Mr. Bisignano: We have been clear, we don't see any data that left the house.
▶ 1:07:31Sen. Whitehouse: You don't see any data that left the house. Ok. The number of new exams, audits for taxpayers in very, very high income categories, like above $10 million in income, has dropped by 9%.
▶ 1:07:59Sen. Whitehouse: It is scheduled to drop by another 30%. I go back to the days when the majority of the irs's enforcement effort was in states like mississippi, going after the poorest people.
▶ 1:08:17Sen. Whitehouse: I thought one of the good things that we did on a bipartisan basis was to refocus the irs audit on the people most likely to be tax cheats, which is people that have enormous resources and the ability to deploy complex tax cheats strategies. What is up with the reduction in interest in auditing. Very rich people, reduction in actual audits of very rich people?
▶ 1:08:44Mr. Bisignano: First of all, this year, collections and enforcement is up 12%. This is your to date. As I said earlier, we have had over $2 billion in the top five audits that we collected on. We will go after every bad actor. There is no bias to any of it, it is every bad actor.
▶ 1:09:15Mr. Bisignano: You are not going to have the type of revenue we have coming in from enforcement if you are not collecting from highly compensated people. And bad actors. I think that this year's numbers will prove itself out.
▶ 1:09:33Sen. Whitehouse: So what explains, for instance, the large business and international division lost 19% of its staff? Has that affected audits in the large business and international division?
▶ 1:09:52Mr. Bisignano: No, I think what our head of enforcement would say, the head of our cio would say is their ability to use technology has got them reaching out to more, not less. I don't think that the metric anyone ever had that said it was the rights number of staff. I will ensure that we have the right number of staff to get everything that we need.
▶ 1:10:19Sen. Whitehouse: Mr. chairman, Mr. chairman. I think it might behoove the committee to have a kind of technical session on looking at how the irs is implementing new ai and data systems in order to overcome what seems to be very dramatic reductions in workforce dedicated to audit.
▶ 1:10:49Sen. Whitehouse: I hear the point that the administrator is making. I think it would be helpful if we sat down at some point with some folks from the irs, to have them explain to us how that is playing out in practice. Because if what is happening is that less resources are being sent to large businesses, large corporations, international schemes, superhigh schemes, superhi high end
▶ 1:11:19Sen. Whitehouse: Individuals, the prediction -- the result is quite predictable.
▶ 1:11:21Chair Crapo: Whether that means we would have another session, have a committee meeting on it or whether we get the data and get information.
▶ 1:11:28Sen. Whitehouse: Either way, it will be a useful thing to do as the ai enters the irs landscape.
▶ 1:11:35Chair Crapo: I think we can get that information.
▶ 1:11:38Sen. Whitehouse: That would be very helpful. I appreciate that, Mr. chairman.
▶ 1:11:42Chair Crapo: Senator cortez masto.
▶ 1:11:46Sen. Cortez Masto: Thank you. I will stay on the same line of questioning. Mr. bisignano, how much time do you spend as the ceo of irs versus your duties as commissioner of social security?
▶ 1:11:59Mr. Bisignano: I look at it as I run two large organizations. My day starts, as it did today -- >> I don't have much time. How much time do you spend?
▶ 1:12:15Mr. Bisignano: I spent not eight hours a day but 14 hours a day.
▶ 1:12:20Sen. Cortez Masto: Again, I need specifics. You could spend 14 hours at the irs. You have got to figure out as a ceo. How is that?
▶ 1:12:33Mr. Bisignano: Here's how I think about it. We run it with a governance structure, both organizations. There is a weekly staff meeting, there is a key indicator meeting that we take the top two levels to management. This is the report that never existed before. Many things did not exist before. We built technology to be able to look at it. That happens every week.
▶ 1:12:57Sen. Cortez Masto: Let me just say, it would be helpful if you look back at your calendar and you tell us how much time was spent on social security versus irs. That would be helpful, just your days, that's all I'm asking. I appreciate the private sector --
▶ 1:13:13Mr. Bisignano: Are you going to include saturday and sunday? I will give you the hours.
▶ 1:13:19Sen. Cortez Masto: Let me say this. This is an oversight hearing because the taxpayers pay your bill. The taxpayers pay mine. They are making sure the agency that work for them are run efficiently and we are spending the money in a way that is efficient for the taxpayer to the benefit of the taxpayers. That's all I'm asking. Information for the taxpayers on how you are spending your time. It is not a gotcha question. I'm not trying to attack you. It is just specifically how we see this moving forward. I want to follow up on some comments that you made.
▶ 1:13:51Sen. Cortez Masto: You are focused on delivering measurable results across the irs. I appreciate that. You come from the private sector. You were all about measuring metrics and outcomes, and that's great. In your introduction today, you have identified several deliverables that you are identifying for the irs. My question is, as you are measuring these metrics, can you provide us more information on how you are measuring them?
▶ 1:14:16Sen. Cortez Masto: It would be helpful for me to understand -- I get achieving the best results and timeliness and accuracy. It would be helpful if you give us the metrics, the metrics that you are achieving that outcome against. But I don't get is building a world-class management team. If you have a metric, that would be helpful. If you can get us more specifics on those items, I would be appreciative. As we have said come you are currently leading these two agencies. I have concerns that I want to address.
▶ 1:14:47Sen. Cortez Masto: The doj admitted in court that doge employees use an unauthorized third party server to secure the a social security staffer signed an agreement with a private political advocacy group. There are also allegations from a whistleblower that a doge staffer took major social security administration databases with him using a thumb drive.
▶ 1:15:07Sen. Cortez Masto: And then at the I.r.s., a federal court has found 42,695 violations of federal law stemming from the sharing of confidential taxpayer data under an agreement with d.h.s. My question to you is what changes are you implementing to avoid further breaches of americans' private information?
▶ 1:15:31Mr. Bisignano: Again, toen sure that our data is secure, which is the number one priority, if you go through our priorities, it's protecting americans' data. It's driving higher service and improving collections for I.r.s., right? And we brought in outside to look at it, ensure we weren't just looking at it internally, and to ensure that we're protecting the data, and we have a total outside review of it.
▶ 1:16:00Sen. Cortez Masto: I'm going to take advantage of you being here. I need help with something. In clark county, nevada, I am understanding from our social security office that there's right now a backlog of foster children attempting to obtain their social security cards, and this is because the social security office in las vegas has informed us in southern nevada that it would begin requiring physical stamped certified copies of foster children's vital records before issuing
▶ 1:16:32Sen. Cortez Masto: Their social security cards. Priority to this change, clark county worked with the social security office to provide certified copies of these children's vital records in a digital process. Now you're asking for physical, the challenge we have with that is because we don't have actually in clark county a lot of the physical stamped certified copies, because most of it is digital now. So can you take a look at that for me and figure out how we ca-
▶ 1:16:59Mr. Bisignano: I'll get back to your office. We'll do it this week.
▶ 1:17:03Sen. Cortez Masto: Thank you. Thank you, Mr. chairman.
▶ 1:17:06Chair Crapo: Thank you. Senator johnson?
▶ 1:17:09Sen. Johnson: Sorry I'm coming in late, and if I ask some questions or make comments, I apologize for that. Mr. bisignano, first of all, thank you for your service. You've taken on probably two pretty thankless jobs and two very difficult organizations, I think, to really reform. But you have the perfect background.
▶ 1:17:33Sen. Johnson: Having come from the private sector and businesses where you have to, you know, process trillions of transactions, ok, I just want you to compare that challenge and how you got control and had world-class businesses in the private sector versus the challenge you face right now and what you're seeing in the first year of your service here.
▶ 1:17:55Mr. Bisignano: Yeah, I think actually brought the same playbook. I'm honored to be here, and congratulations for everything you've done, and I talked earlier for the great work you all did on working families tax act. I brought the same playbook, which would be a governance structure that interacts pretty deeply with management.
▶ 1:18:24Mr. Bisignano: We eliminated layers of management, so we'd have a flatter org. Obviously we have a weekly staff meeting, which I don't know was always customary, but is the only thing I've ever known.
▶ 1:18:38Sen. Johnson: You're bringing private sector management techniques. You've got a first-class management team. Were those people you recruited?
▶ 1:18:49Mr. Bisignano: Half recruited and half great career people that were waiting, and they're actually learning, we're building right now that will implement in may a leadership academy that we teach to the next levels of management on what really good looks like and how to achieve really good results, how you can have less people and better results.
▶ 1:19:13Sen. Johnson: You're trying to create an environment that's going to last beyond your term.
▶ 1:19:17Mr. Bisignano: That's my whole objective here.
▶ 1:19:20Sen. Johnson: When you came into office, how many people were working at home?
▶ 1:19:26Mr. Bisignano: We don't have anybody working at home now.
▶ 1:19:30Sen. Johnson: Like what percentage of the workforce?
▶ 1:19:33Mr. Bisignano: Well, you know, I think before me a whole bunch were brought in ahead of time, but at one point it was, you know, greater than 50%.
▶ 1:19:44Sen. Johnson: Were there a lot of term nations as a result of that or retirements?
▶ 1:19:48Mr. Bisignano: No, all voluntary retirements, which I think was you know, nobody is really hearing this, but was good, because they wanted to retire.
▶ 1:19:57Sen. Johnson: What percentage of the workforce ended up taking their retirement?
▶ 1:20:02Mr. Bisignano: At I.r.s., 25%.
▶ 1:20:04Sen. Johnson: Do you feel you're understaffed at this point in time? Are you going to do a better job with less?
▶ 1:20:11Mr. Bisignano: The numbers are showing that, and that's why I think the scoreboard, you know, we're getting refunds out 98 million of them within 21 days.
▶ 1:20:27Sen. Johnson: I read the stats. I just wanted you to be able to relay your philosophy, how you came from business. You have to do more with less.
▶ 1:20:38Mr. Bisignano: Look it, technology is the great enabler, right? We took online inquiries up 60% to 500 million. Years ago those would be phone calls or walk-ins.
▶ 1:20:56Sen. Johnson: Is the technology being updated? Is it you have to snuff? Are you dealing with the legacy systems that are just creating havoc?
▶ 1:21:04Mr. Bisignano: Well, we're always going to be upgrading, but right now we're upgrading for next year, and we learned a lot from this year. You know, I think the reality is we will invest a lot more in tools that help us, you know, collect more revenue also. Not just the servicing side.
▶ 1:21:21Sen. Johnson: I want toen courage to you continue this. This is exactly what these agencies, including social security need. They need a private sector approach, do a lot more, a lot better with less. My final time here, what I always ask of people in charge of the I.r.s., our tax code is grotesquely complex. 400 billion plus to supply with. I want to simplify and rationale it. I think there's two separate approaches, but simplify and rationalize.
▶ 1:21:51Sen. Johnson: What I ask you off the record, take a look at what are the most complex areas that if we simplify, if we did rationalize, that could help taxpayers reduce those compliance costs, help you become more efficient in terms of implementing the tax code and stuff. If you want to just quick mention something the top of your mind, but otherwise, really take a serious look at that.
▶ 1:22:17Sen. Johnson: I never got a serious answer back. Do you have a current comment off the top of your head?
▶ 1:22:26Mr. Bisignano: No. I'll come back to you.
▶ 1:22:31Sen. Johnson: Keep up the great job, thank you.
▶ 1:22:33Chair Crapo: Thank you. Senator blackburn?
▶ 1:22:36Sen. Blackburn: Thank you so much, Mr. chairman, and thank you for being here. I appreciate that on tax day you're spending some time with us. And hearing about what the american people are talking about. In tennessee, as I've been out and about, over our easter work period, I had more people comment about the enhanced deduction for seniors, and that is something, as the chairman knows, I really pushed this.
▶ 1:23:08Sen. Blackburn: It's something I've worked on for years. Getting income tax off of social security. I appreciated your comments that 30 million filers have taken advantage of this, and that it is one of the most, really, one of the most sought after deductions and that we're seeing those increased deductions.
▶ 1:23:37Sen. Blackburn: I thank you for the work on that. I do want to talk to you about the I.r.s. Current administration of the r&d tax credit as it relates to manufacturing. Tennessee is one of the best states in the country for manufacturing, and as we are pushing more into the additive and advanced manufacturing concepts, we are seeing a lot of manufacturing come back.
▶ 1:24:08Sen. Blackburn: Now, some of our manufacturers have told me that the I.r.s. Has asserted that research, that manufacturers conduct on their shop floor doesn't qualify for the r&d credit and that supplies used for shore floor research are not research expenses. We know china has supercharged their r&d incentives.
▶ 1:24:36Sen. Blackburn: So I think it is very important for us to look at this engagement and allow this shop floor research to be considered in that r&d. So I'm going to ask that you work with treasury, that you convene the tax policy folks at treasury and the folks that are administering the r&d credit at the I.r.s. So that everybody gets on the same page.
▶ 1:25:08Sen. Blackburn: And that we continue to lead in r&d. And we're looking for these best practices that r&d leads us to. So can you commit to working with us on this issue?
▶ 1:25:22Mr. Bisignano: That's very simple item, 100% yes, and thank you, thank you for all the work you did for the seniors. We'll be happy to come to your office to work on it.
▶ 1:25:34Sen. Blackburn: Thank you. We want to get that one addressed, because I do think that we need to clarify this r&d issue if we're going to repatriate a lot of these manufacturing jobs. I also want to raise a treasury inspector general report on tax administration. And after reviewing the I.r.s.
▶ 1:26:01Sen. Blackburn: Partnership audit efforts, many of which began under the biden administration, it remains difficult to understand how these programs actually fit together. And the report identifies several overlapping efforts. And I know you were working on reading duplications and redundancies. The large partnership compliance program that passed through organization, the p.t.e. Campaign, the p.t.e.
▶ 1:26:31Sen. Blackburn: Program, but the structure and their relationships are not clarified. Therefore, you get that duplication. The l.p.c. Created in 2021 now appears to sit within the pass-through organization that was established in 2023, while the p.t.e. Campaign and program operate alongside or within it ad various point.
▶ 1:27:01Sen. Blackburn: This leads to monumental confusion to companies that are trying to comply with the law. I would ask that you work with us, and you can see how there is so much redundancy here, and we need to know that you're going to be open to simplifying this structure and bringing some
▶ 1:27:32Sen. Blackburn: Clarity to it and moving to an efficient enforcement in these measures. Will you work with us on that?
▶ 1:27:46Mr. Bisignano: Yeah, we will. We're focused on the same items you are, so happy to come get the teams together. And we will round up all the resources required between treasury and I.r.s.
▶ 1:27:58Sen. Blackburn: Thank you, and keep processing all of those enhanced deduction for seniors. I think it's section five. Thank you, Mr. chairman.
▶ 1:28:07Chair Crapo: Thank you, senator blackburn. As I understand it, that's $6,000 deduction for the qualifying seniors.
▶ 1:28:15Sen. Blackburn: That is correct. $6,000 per person. And as we worked with committee staff during the time we were doing the big beautiful bill, it removed the income tax from 88% of our social security recipients.
▶ 1:28:34Chair Crapo: Thank you. I appreciate you helping focus on that. Senator grassley?
▶ 1:28:41Sen. Grassley: Thank you for being here, but also thank you for several meetings I've had with you over the last year to discuss various things. I get the opinion by listening to people on the other side of the aisle that all you have to do is hire 100,000 more people in I.r.s. And you'll get a lot more money. Under the previous administration, the I.r.s. Placed an emphasis upon law enforcement through increased audits.
▶ 1:29:11Sen. Grassley: My understanding is that the I.r.s. Is taking more tactful approach under the trump administration rather than relying on an army of I.r.s. Auditors. There's a greater focus on using modern tools. I'll let you discuss whatever modern tools is, to improve election. How is the I.r.s. Using technology to improve enforcement?
▶ 1:29:39Mr. Bisignano: Thank you. It's always reply pleasure to spend time with you, too, senator. As we engaged, sometimes when you change staffing model, you also change how you do your work, and you're going to have to do it through technology innovation. And as you know, if not parkinson's law sets in, and we like to go in the opposite direction.
▶ 1:30:07Mr. Bisignano: We built a bunch of tools, and one of the things that happens is we talk about the number of audits we have. But, you know, the direct example is we've is not out, over the past two months, 500,000 letters to people who we knew were, in fact, sending in underreported returns. And they corrected them.
▶ 1:30:31Mr. Bisignano: Those wouldn't show up as audits, but that's how data collection capability, without data analytics, as I like say, we were doing a.I. Before it was a.I., and that resulted in $250 million more collections. If you look at using tools that takes data and allows it to collect it and give the agents way more information and power, it's the reason why enforcement revenue is up 12% right now.
▶ 1:31:05Mr. Bisignano: Those type of items allow us to get more done. If you look at the fact that amended returns took six weeks to process, and now they take three days, that gives us more capability, better intelligence, and better ways to act on them.
▶ 1:31:24Mr. Bisignano: So there's a lot going on inside the agency from a technology standpoint that's actually driving outcomes, and I think that's why we're able to say enforcement revenue is up 12% this year. And when we talk about it, we're talking about the five biggest chases being $2 billion. It's clear that, you know, we go after all bad act forces and want to give people the pay us the right amount.
▶ 1:31:54Sen. Grassley: I want to bring up legislation I got passed a long time ago to see how I.r.s. Is working in that area. It's long been my view that the I.r.s. Needs to do a better job of targeting bad actors to avoid imposing costly audits on innocent taxpayers a program had I have championed to do just that is the I.r.s.
▶ 1:32:21Sen. Grassley: Whistleblower program, which incentivizes those with knowledge of high-dollar tax evasion to alert the I.r.s. To date this program has brought in over $7 billion to the treasury and could raise billions more if used by the I.r.s. To its full potential. Going forward, can I expect the I.r.s. To put more emphasis on the I.r.s.
▶ 1:32:48Sen. Grassley: Whistleblower program to further focus I.r.s. Audit resources?
▶ 1:32:58Mr. Bisignano: I've been policy and streamline the I.r.s. Leadership so that we can communicate better than ever before. I hope any I.r.s. Employee utilizes the resources they have to communicate issues they see toe me or any form of leadership, or wherever they feel appropriate. We like to hear from people. We understand, you know, whistle blowers are usually important to our system here.
▶ 1:33:26Sen. Grassley: That's got to be my last question, but just let me say this in regard to this program. I get a feeling after all this years that this has been on the books, even though it's brought in $7 billion, that there's people in the bowels of the I.r.s. That don't like it, and I think we got to overcome that bureaucratic opposition to people outside reporting that the I.r.s. Isn't doing their job.
▶ 1:33:57Mr. Bisignano: I'll do everything in my power, sir.
▶ 1:34:01Chair Crapo: Thank you. Senator daines?
▶ 1:34:06Sen. Daines: Thank you. On this tax day, thanks to republican leadership, president trump's leadership, the work of this committee, in fact, we passed the largest tax cut in american history. I'm proud of that. And we stopped the largest tax increase in american history, and I'm proud of that fact. As we're having these debates about affordability, which we understand, one way to help the american people make it a bit more affordable is put a little mormon in their pocket through tax relief.
▶ 1:34:36Sen. Daines: We champion the no tax on tips, permanent relief for small businesses, permanent estate tax, credits to expand school choice and the new market tax credit, some of the things I personally worked on to push across the finish line. These provisionsen able families, enable farmers and ranchers back in montana, enable our main street businesses to keep more of their around-earned dollars at a time when they need it. Recent I.r.s. Data has confirmed that.
▶ 1:35:06Sen. Daines: We're about 45%, 50% through now, the filing process, and guess what, we're seeing refunds going up. 11% to 13% already. Montanans are receiving over $3,500 in the average refund more, and that's a significant increase from last filing season. I know our friends across the aisle have had some consternation in the fact that we stopped the largest tax increase in american history.
▶ 1:35:33Sen. Daines: There's been fear mongering claiming that changes that we put in place, that it's actually putting mormon in the pockets of the american people is actually creating a disaster for filing season, which isn't true. And we'll talk more about that. You streamline customer service, and we're getting these refunds through, and thankfully the end of the day, that is putting more money in the pockets of the american people.
▶ 1:36:03Sen. Daines: Mr. bisignano, do we see the data that's showing the opposite of some of this fear mongering? Can you tell me how we've ensured a successful filing season and how we've helped millions, millions of americans receive their highest refund ever?
▶ 1:36:22Mr. Bisignano: I think first of all, we're right now starting on next year's filing season. So as soon as I came in, we made a point of meeting weekly and understand every number and go through them anden sure we got the right outcome. I think what you all did, congratulations. I mean, I think it's actually exceeding expectations.
▶ 1:36:51Mr. Bisignano: 80 million americans, more than 80 million americans have had refunds. That's the most ever. So when we think about the refunds, we paid out 16% more. 16% more. And the stat that people don't want to really recognize is this great servicing that occurred.
▶ 1:37:15Mr. Bisignano: 98% electronic filings and 98% have received electronic filings. And when you take all electronic records, when you take all refunds, 90% of them have been paid within 21 days. Larger refunds, to more people, quicker. That's what you gave us the opportunity to do, and I thank you for that.
▶ 1:37:43Mr. Bisignano: And you know, I give the great career people in the I.r.s. Who I work shoulder to shoulder with, and the team who came in with me a ton of credit for what got delivered and where we are. You know, I had the option of four days to be here. They gave me four different dates, and I thought I have to take 4/15 as the date.
▶ 1:38:10Sen. Daines: 90% of senior citizens are not paying taxes on social security benefits.
▶ 1:38:16Mr. Bisignano: 30 million seniors with the deduction, more than 54 million filers in total had a schedule 1-a, which meant they took either no tax on tip, no tax on overtime, no tax on car insurance.
▶ 1:38:36Sen. Daines: We took the deduction, I mean, permanently, that's another, there's --
▶ 1:38:41Mr. Bisignano: That's over $5 trillion.
▶ 1:38:44Sen. Daines: We got a lot to talk about, but I just want to wrap up here. One of the challenges we faced is the fact that 45% of children in the united states never claim the benefits of a surviving social security payment benefit. We see that in montana. Child beneficiaries make up 11% of all social security recipients. That's four times higher the statewide average.
▶ 1:39:08Sen. Daines: We have rural states like montana, communities are facing barriers to access, we're failing to reach all eligible children. In addition to personal hardships these children have, too many of them face financial hardships by not receiving their duly owned benefits. My last question, given your dual role as I.r.s. C.e.o.
▶ 1:39:28Sen. Daines: And social security commissioner, do you commit to working with my office on this important issue anden sure that all eligible children across my state receive these benefits they're entitled to?
▶ 1:39:44Mr. Bisignano: My pleasure and honor. My dad was an orphan, worked 44 years for the treasury department. So I'll be there whenever you want me. We'll get together, sir.
▶ 1:39:54Sen. Daines: Thank you.
▶ 1:39:54Chair Crapo: Thank you. Senator warner?
▶ 1:39:58Sen. Warner: Thank you. I appreciate the fact that you know my arguments are going to be so powerful that you allowed three republicans to go in a row to try to build up and buttress.
▶ 1:40:11Chair Crapo: We did our best to soften you up.
▶ 1:40:15Sen. Warner: Now let's bring some facts back to the discussion. Commissioner, great to see you again. On the big bill, in your testimony you said you returned $274 billion in refunds to the american people. Now, we tried to actually look at this in terms of what this means, in terms of actual cost. Let me just talk about my folks in virginia. Average refunds is $346.
▶ 1:40:48Sen. Warner: Now, I believe that number is skewed high because there are some of us at the top that got a much larger refund than that. But we'll give you credit for the full $346 in terms of refund. What does it really meant for virginians and americans and their pocketbook? Well, because of data centers, other issues, average electric bill increases, $304.
▶ 1:41:22Sen. Warner: The president's liberation, or I would say to farmers who don't exactly feel liberated, their tariff costs, average family, $370. Rent, because we haven't done enough on a housing supply, ranking member warren has gotten a good bill out of the banking committee unanimously, but rent increase is up $307. Rent increases up 600.
▶ 1:41:52Sen. Warner: And this number, this is just the gas price increase in the 47 days of a war where we've not had regime change, we've not gotten then riched uranium, and clearly the strait of hormuz is closed, both by the iranians and now us.
▶ 1:42:11Sen. Warner: So the way I added it up, yes, there may have been a refund, but in terms of total cost to the average virginian or average person from idaho, I see $1,852. Now, do you refute or would you take issue with any of those?
▶ 1:42:31Mr. Bisignano: Well, I'd start with first, sir, the number that I'm responsible for on some level here. The 346 or 386.
▶ 1:42:46Sen. Warner: It would have been much fairer if you just said, all right, what's the average amount of refund, for folks that make less than $400,000 a year.
▶ 1:42:56Mr. Bisignano: I think a couple of things here. One, we, you took the average number that was reported as a refinanced year over year, but eight million more people received refunds. So if you talk about how much went back to people, it wasn't 346, it was a number significantly larger, because more people got the $3,000 average.
▶ 1:43:25Sen. Warner: I've had to listen to three of my regular colleagues. I would respectfully disagree, because the amount of a lot of that number of the 346 is because folks at the very top, and I've been blessed to do very well, my refund was much bigger than 346. I actually think it would have been perhaps fairer to have this distribution a little bit geared more for the moderate income.
▶ 1:43:52Mr. Bisignano: To that point, the top 1% paid 30% of all federal taxes. The top 10% pay 62%. And the bottom 15 -- the bottom 50% pay 3%
▶ 1:44:09Sen. Warner: I'm a hard-core capitalist, but the top 1% controls a greater share of as pets in our economy at a level that makes the 1920's look equitable compared to where we are today. Let me move to my last question.
▶ 1:44:26Sen. Warner: One of the things I think we would agree is that the inspector general, I believe the data is every dollar invested in the inspector general actually gets back to close to $100 back because of trying to find misuse and abuse.
▶ 1:44:42Sen. Warner: So could you explain to me why the administration's fiscal 2027 request for the inspector general literally is cut 17% from 26 members, that will mean the inspector general will have lost over 130 full-time employees since the start of 2025. If we're going to try to bring about greater efficiency, doesn't the inspector general play a critically important role, and why are you cutting him at such a dramatic rate?
▶ 1:45:14Mr. Bisignano: The fact of the matter is we've managed productivity and quality through every aspect, and the inspector general is one of those aspects also.
▶ 1:45:24Sen. Warner: You don't refute the fact that for every dollar spent, the data shows --
▶ 1:45:29Mr. Bisignano: That's not my calculation, sir. I'm not going to --
▶ 1:45:35Sen. Warner: I would think the average cost to a virginia family has actually gone up under this president, and I think it is, assist a former businessman myself, a bad allocation of resources when you cut the inspector general. Thank you, Mr. chairman.
▶ 1:45:49Chair Crapo: Thank you. >> thank you for your important work. One of the things that I hear about as it relates to the one big beautiful bill act, also known as the working families tax cuts act, is the importance of trump accounts to millions of americans. I remind my constituents that the I.r.s.
▶ 1:46:17Chair Crapo: Has played a very active role and the trump account enrollment through the administration of the new form 4547, this allows parents to enroll their children in these tax advantage savings accounts so them help build wealth and enhance their future opportunities. The I.r.s. Announced at the end of last month that four million children have been enrolled in the program thus far. That's commendable and exciting to me.
▶ 1:46:48Chair Crapo: Of that, one million of these accounts are entitled to the $1,000 seed contribution from the federal government. In your view, sir, is the I.r.s. On track to fully administer the tax reporting and compliance aspects of trump accounts by july 4 when contributions can begin to be made?
▶ 1:47:09Mr. Bisignano: The number is up to five million right now. And as you know, there's also philanthropy that's occurred that will allow a newborn to get the dell foundation putting in $6 billion.
▶ 1:47:28Mr. Bisignano: So I think it's a great generational vehicle that I applaud you all for getting that legislation done and all the legislation that you've done and all your hard work. And the answer is yes.
▶ 1:47:42Mr. Bisignano: But in terms of being prepared, if you look at the preparedness we had here for this filing season, what legislation coming through in july, and everybody was prepared to say something other than it would turn out the way it was. We're ready for implementing.
▶ 1:48:06Sen. Young: Great. We'll continue to track that. If there are any snags you run into, I hope you'll let this committee know.
▶ 1:48:12Mr. Bisignano: Of course.
▶ 1:48:13Sen. Young: So we could be helpful where needed. The working family tax cuts act prevented the largest tax hike in american history. Failure to act would have amounted to a $2.6 trillion tax increase on households earning less than $400,000 per year. That would have, of course, damaged our economy. Mr.
▶ 1:48:36Sen. Young: Bisignano, what other changes are we, what changes are we seeing in business formation, wage reporting, or other filing behavior that reflect taxpayer response to the many pro-growth provisions in the tax cut law?
▶ 1:48:54Mr. Bisignano: I think the most telling signs, and if you look across a whole platform, that was a $5 trillion tax hike that was avoided, as you talked about, when you go through the whole, all taxpayers.
▶ 1:49:14Sen. Young: Any trends we're seeing?
▶ 1:49:16Mr. Bisignano: Trends, to me we're seeing in the filing season is the fact that what you all implemented has 54 million americans aware, I think the senior deduction, you have to say is really taking the tax burden off the seniors with 30 million filed.
▶ 1:49:43Mr. Bisignano: I think you're going to watch as we close out this season, you know, the fact that we have the highest refunds ever, and all of that, you know, is putting money back into the system.
▶ 1:50:00Sen. Young: The last thing I wanted to touch on, "the wall street journal" over the last roughly 24 hours had a column, you probably saw it, entitled "america's new tax mantra," the I.r.s. Isn't going to catch me. And I think none of us likes taxes. I think it's really important that we're enforcing our tax law and that people aren't cheating on their taxes.
▶ 1:50:31Sen. Young: I know the I.r.s. Often finds itself up against very sophisticated taxpayers that may or may not be abusing tack rules, hence the importance of identifying cases to audit.
▶ 1:50:46Sen. Young: How can your digital first approach and the adoption of new technological tools help in determining which cases to investigate further, so the agency's man power can be better focused on the core accounting and legal work, and if necessary, enforcement work?
▶ 1:51:06Mr. Bisignano: Yeah, enforcement revenue is up 12% year to date. If you pick the top five cases, they were $2 billion. I think the team there does an outstanding job, they brought in a technology-find mindset, everything from it's never talked about, but we flagged and send out information to taxpayers within a day or two
▶ 1:51:37Mr. Bisignano: Sometimes of their filing. It might turn into an audit, but if you go the past couple of months, 500,000 letters go out, and we collect $250 million from them. On the technical side, we are doing a lot of data comparison that we would have done manually. Technically we started that in december, and that's manifesting all types of cases that we might not have gotten to.
▶ 1:52:12Mr. Bisignano: I saw the head lean, they said a good rally cry for that whole org. We talked about it. They're fired up. And I actually think some people think more agents, I think more technology. That's going to far exceed what the humans can do. Technology is the greaten abler.
▶ 1:52:33Sen. Young: Thank you for your efforts to root out fraud and abuse. Mr. chairman?
▶ 1:52:40Chair Crapo: Thank you. Senator barrasso?
▶ 1:52:45Sen. Barrasso: Thank you for the great job you're doing. There have been some allegations from the ranking member, from senator white house, senator cortez masto, senator bennet. I want to get the record set straight on the data privacy and what you've been doing in the records since you've been there. Because the I.r.s. Does priority to this had a really troubling history, I believe, of failing to safeguard taxpayers' personal information. 2022, government accountability office report found almost 500 instances of I.r.s.
▶ 1:53:15Sen. Barrasso: Employees improperly accessing taxpayer data under the biden administration and unvetted I.r.s. Contractor leaked the confidential records, I believe it was close to a half a million americans, and they did it to liberal news outlets. In a separate incident, the biden I.r.s. Accidentally published the data of over 100,000 taxpayers, took it down, and then republished it. Not a single person in the biden I.r.s. Has ever been held accountable for any of this.
▶ 1:53:44Sen. Barrasso: This is the record that you inherited. I think you moved quickly to change that. So for the first time in the history of the I.r.s., you mandated the risk management staff, now report directly to senior leadership. You launch a comprehensive review. You brought a lot of new oversight. How is your approach changed the way that data security vulnerabilities that we've seen in the past get identified and addressed?
▶ 1:54:07Mr. Bisignano: Well, I think I could talk about the governance model that we use, and obviously you hit on one item. The elevation of risk management to directly to me, to take a much larger slice, running to protect the perimeter, patrol the interior. While doing all that, reinforcing that we want problems to bubble up.
▶ 1:54:40Mr. Bisignano: We want to hear them, we want to know them, that's why we have a weekly risk meeting. We go through a risk problem. Problems don't age well, and our purchases, we have an open door. We want to hear problems, and we want to deal with problems. And bring outside experts in to test what we're doing anden sure it's right. And ensure it's right.
▶ 1:55:04Mr. Bisignano: We can't guarantee outcomes, but if you have a great risk management discipline, odds are you're going to have less problems.
▶ 1:55:16Sen. Barrasso: I want to highlight the work you're doing at the social security administration. Last year we saw faster customer service, better outcomes for beneficiaries, so you deserve appreciation for that. Today is tax day, the reason you're here, and we're seeing under this new law that we passed refunds are up, total refinanced dollars are up. Total of 80 million people got refunds this year compared to seven million people higher than last year.
▶ 1:55:46Sen. Barrasso: So many of those claims that come in, no tax on tips, they benefit on that, social security, you talked about some of that in the opening remark. What made it possible for you and the I.r.s. To process more rereturns and issue bigger refunds with even you have a smaller workforce, you've done it.
▶ 1:56:07Mr. Bisignano: We definitely started out with ensuring that all the tax changes we needed to get done, remember this gotten acted in july -- gotten acted in july, and we need it ready for january, and that was a great job done by the I.r.s. Team. While doing that, we built the m.I.s. To track how we run the place. This would be a weekly review we do right here of metrics with two levels of management.
▶ 1:56:35Mr. Bisignano: While doing that, we appeared to be super aggressive goals to get good outcomes from the american public. You look at the fact that 98% filed electronically, you know, and that went up a full percentage point from last year. I think the fact that we had 500 million queries, because we went and built more capability for people to go online and do queries, that took down the phone calls actually.
▶ 1:57:09Mr. Bisignano: If you go 500 million queries, that's a lot of americans trying to figure out where's my refund, and meanwhile, refunds were back, 90% of them within 21 days. I know you can remember when somebody would think they'd get a refunds in six weeks at the earliest. So a lot of function built in technology allowed us to handle all the volumes that we would, and actually really did not miss a beat.
▶ 1:57:39Mr. Bisignano: We worked the backlog, and we never did that before during tax season. We worked backlogs of paper that was never worked before.
▶ 1:57:51Sen. Barrasso: I heard this from an old roger in wyoming.
▶ 1:57:57Chair Crapo: Could you make it very quick?
▶ 1:57:59Sen. Barrasso: Because of the court directly federal government to increase electronic payments, I don't think you got the regulations out yet on how to be able to do the old thing, write a check. He doesn't know how to do it.
▶ 1:58:12Mr. Bisignano: He'll be able to write a check.
▶ 1:58:15Sen. Barrasso: All right.
▶ 1:58:17Mr. Bisignano: We're never going to stop anybody from doing what they need to do, if that's the only way they know how to do it.
▶ 1:58:22Sen. Barrasso: Thank you.
▶ 1:58:24Chair Crapo: Senator warren?
▶ 1:58:29Sen. Warren: You claim as c.e.o. Of the I.r.s. You are "getting a really good outcome from the american public." and I just have some questions about what that really means. Last year doge pushed out 4,400, about 4,400 I.r.s. Employees whose specific job was to take calls and answer questions for millions of taxpayers. And then after you pushed them out, you discovered you actually needed those people to do that work.
▶ 1:58:58Sen. Warren: So you tried to hire a lot of them back. But you did such a bad job at that you were still short of your own hiring targets by about 1,000 people as you got to tax filing season. And now taxpayers who call in are waiting literally twice as long on hold to get help. So Mr.
▶ 1:59:23Sen. Warren: Bisignano, which part is the really good outcome for the american people? Is it pushing out thousands of employees who are needed to help answer taxpayers' questions, or is it unsuccessfully scrambling to rehire those workers, or is it forcing millions of taxpayers to spend literally twice as much time waiting on the phone to get help? Where is the really good outcome?
▶ 1:59:51Mr. Bisignano: The really good outcome is the fact that we executed against one big beautiful bill. We have 54 million americans who filed the form 1-a, we have 80 million americans who received refunds --
▶ 2:00:08Sen. Warren: I gave you three facts. They're verified. I take it you don't dispute that. I want to understand it.
▶ 2:00:15Mr. Bisignano: Here's the actual facts, ma'am.
▶ 2:00:17Sen. Warren: I want to understand how they're really good outcome.
▶ 2:00:23Mr. Bisignano: We committed to single digit wait times on the phones. We're not having people sit --
▶ 2:00:28Sen. Warren: The data --
▶ 2:00:30Mr. Bisignano: The inspector general report -- the data from the inspector general says --
▶ 2:00:35Sen. Warren: Mr. bisignano --
▶ 2:00:39Mr. Bisignano: Take the level of access increased 45%.
▶ 2:00:43Sen. Warren: That same report, I've now seen it, says wait times on the phone doubled for people asking.
▶ 2:00:52Mr. Bisignano: Chatbots all exceeded.
▶ 2:00:55Sen. Warren: Where are those really good outcomes that you bragged about, and I take it they're not there. Let's understand --
▶ 2:01:02Mr. Bisignano: No, how about -- how about 90, over 90% of people, over 90% of people --
▶ 2:01:09Sen. Warren: The rich are having a field day, thanks to donald trump, corporations pay $65 billion less in taxes last year compared with 2024. Meta alone saved $3 billion. Amazon saved over $4 billion.
▶ 2:01:28Sen. Warren: And just for context, that's $65 billion, would have been enough money to extend the obamacare tax credits three times over and still have money left over. Saving healthcare for millions of americans. So Mr. bisignano, I gist want to understand how slashing healthcare for families so that meta gets a $3 billion tax cut is a really good outcome for the american public.
▶ 2:01:57Mr. Bisignano: Well, a really good outcome for the american public is getting their checks, their direct deposits within 21 days. What you're talking about isn't part of what the I.r.s. Is working on.
▶ 2:02:15Sen. Warren: So you think it is a good outcome that meta gets to save $3 billion, amazon gets $4 billion, and pay for it million dollars of americans lose their healthcare? That's your view as the c.e.o. Of the I.r.s.?
▶ 2:02:33Mr. Bisignano: I don't see the two of them correlated, ma'am.
▶ 2:02:37Sen. Warren: They're correlated in terms of those tax cuts were paid for by pushing people off their healthcare. Did you not follow that?
▶ 2:02:46Mr. Bisignano: Those tax cuts, 30 million seniors, your senior-
▶ 2:02:53Sen. Warren: $3 million for meta so that, paid for by people being pushed off their healthcare. And you're the one who said really good outcome.
▶ 2:03:04Mr. Bisignano: Here's a really good outcome for the american public. The tax, it was enacted and working families tax act --
▶ 2:03:13Sen. Warren: The values of the trump administration loud and clear.
▶ 2:03:16Chair Crapo: We still argue over whether the refusal to increase taxes is a tax cut.
▶ 2:03:24Sen. Warren: Over whether meta is paying $3 billion less under the one big beautiful bill than they paid the year before. They got $3 billion they got to keep. It was paid for by mill millions of people pushed off healthcare. Those are just the numbers.
▶ 2:03:45Chair Crapo: We'll continue to debate this, I'm sure. And if you're a billionaire and don't want to pay taxes, contrary to what Mr. bisignano said, you can get away with it.
▶ 2:03:56Chair Crapo: Senator hassan?
▶ 2:03:58Sen. Hassan: Thank you, Mr. chair, and thank you, ranking member. Senator cassidy?
▶ 2:04:07Chair Crapo: It was senator cassidy.
▶ 2:04:10Sen. Cassidy: Thank you for being so generous. Just for clarification, sir, you enforce the law, you don't write the law.
▶ 2:04:21Mr. Bisignano: That's true.
▶ 2:04:22Sen. Cassidy: That seems to be a confusion here. Today I introduce with senator warren, warner, legislation called the improving I.r.s. Customer service act. Now, this is not to say you've not already done, but saint paul said we go from glory to greater glory. We improve, we continue to improve. So building on last year's successes, in which I.r.s.
▶ 2:04:52Sen. Cassidy: Called back technology saved 38, I'm told, 919,000 hours to taxpayers, in cases where wait times might exceed 15 minutes, and tech modernization initiatives are working, my bill would equip I.r.s.
▶ 2:05:11Sen. Cassidy: With the legislative mandate to, one, create an online dashboard so that taxpayers can monitor average call wait time and budget time accordingly, I call it my bill, by the way, but it's mine and mark warner, it's bipartisan. Second, people might need to wait longer than five minutes.
▶ 2:05:33Sen. Cassidy: And third, establish a program to identify and support taxpayers struggling to make ends meet by providing information about alternative payment methods such as installments, partial payments and offers and compromise. And and you I know of people kind of desperate, don't know where to turn, cash flow crunch, and I.r.s. Is one of the creditors. So I think this could really ease anxiety. So I think this legislation, again, is bipartisan.
▶ 2:06:02Sen. Cassidy: It is likely to pass this congress. My question is, could you work with congress, commitment to working worworworking with congress swiy implement the reforms?
▶ 2:06:11Mr. Bisignano: I'm happy to meet with the team and work with the team and do all I can to make it as good as you want it to be.
▶ 2:06:20Sen. Cassidy: What are some of the other improvements you can do without our mandate that you anticipate coming online this filing season?
▶ 2:06:29Mr. Bisignano: I think as we move to over 500 million online queries at irs.gov this year, we learned how to get a better engagement with the taxpayer, meeting them where they want to be met, so you should just continue that. And to build more capability when they need to call in order for them to be served better.
▶ 2:06:58Mr. Bisignano: We move to 24/7, and we're going to further advance that in all areas.
▶ 2:07:04Sen. Cassidy: Sometimes at 3:00 in the morning, can't go to sleep, and I'm messing with things, so why not? Let me ask you about historic preservation easements. Important in my state. If you go to new orleans, as you know, you've been to new orleans, you see how older buildings have been regentry fewed, or gentry feud by these, aided by these tax credits.
▶ 2:07:31Sen. Cassidy: Started under president reagan, I believe, but this congress, we have recently kind of reupped them, if you will. There's a difference, I'm told, in how I.r.s. Treats two congressionally created programs sharing the same preservation goal. The I.r.s.
▶ 2:07:48Sen. Cassidy: Gives clear, very clear, unambiguous use for tax credits, but there seems to be a vagueness regarding the guidance for historic preservation easements. So they're complementary, but treated differently, at least in terms of the guidance.
▶ 2:08:09Sen. Cassidy: So I've been working on a bipartisan basis in this committee to reform section 178 to the tax code so that historic property owners can get that clear direction. So question, begging an answer, will you commit to issuing prospective guidance, guidance that facilitates legitimate use of this tool, which, again, has been so important in my state.
▶ 2:08:40Mr. Bisignano: Yeah, we've been obviously keenly aware of issues around conservation easements and we like to come see you and come up with the right solution. There's definitely items to solve there.
▶ 2:08:57Sen. Cassidy: Sounds good, I appreciate that. And then let me also ask about some crypto tax reform. Let me make sure I got my lead-in for this.
▶ 2:09:11Sen. Cassidy: I'm told in the 2026 crypto tax readiness report we surveyed 3,000 users, they fond that most intent to comply with their tax obligations, but only 49% correctly identified that a taxable event occurs every time crypto is sold. Approximately 61% of the crypto users unaware of the specific rules that took effect in 2025. These rules require brokers to issue form 1099da.
▶ 2:09:50Sen. Cassidy: The vice president of coinbase said users are struggling to navigate the complexities of crypto taxation. Can I ask what the I.r.s. Is now seeing regarding crypto tax reporting compliance this filing season?
▶ 2:10:03Mr. Bisignano: Well, you know, on the 1099da, it's now out and there's a bunch of work to still do. I like to have our team get with who you've been, in your staff has been working on it, and milwaukee sure this equals what they're seeing. But it's high on the list of because of its you'reness of things that still need work.
▶ 2:10:34Chair Crapo: Thank you. Senator hassan?
▶ 2:10:36Sen. Hassan: Thank you, Mr. chair, and ranking member wyden for having this hearing. Mr. bisignano, good to see you. I want to start by talking about something I'm working on as ranking member of the joint economic committee. Just recently, I sent a bipartisan alert to help the public better avoid common tax scams. Scammers are increasingly using a.I. To realistically impersonate the I.r.s.
▶ 2:11:04Sen. Hassan: Online and over the phone in order to steal taxpayers' refund payments and identities. When americans are scammed, they can report the scam to the I.r.s. However, there are seven other federal agencies who also accept scam reports. Each in a different way, on a different website. As a result, americans who are attacked by scammers often don't know where to turn. They often don't report at all. How does the I.r.s.
▶ 2:11:31Sen. Hassan: Work with other federal agencies to combat scams, and will you commit to working across federal agencies to simplify the reported process for scam victims?
▶ 2:11:44Mr. Bisignano: First, yes. You know, we took a very active role in slam the scam day, and I think it's one of the most important things I think I.r.s. Is, I.r.s. And social security, we believe are the two most prevalent, and I'm happy to work across the whole place, because this is to me one of the things we have to protect the american public from.
▶ 2:12:11Sen. Hassan: I'm working on legislation to try to centralize that reporting.
▶ 2:12:15Mr. Bisignano: Happy to help.
▶ 2:12:16Sen. Hassan: I want the american public to know if you're scammed, report. It is nothing to be ashamed of. These are very smart scammers who are using very sophisticated techniques. Let me move on to another issue. According to recent reporting, the social security inspector general is investigating an unprecedented violation of americans' private information involving a former doge staffer who purportly took the social security numbers of potentially every american.
▶ 2:12:45Sen. Hassan: If this data gets into the wrong hands or got in the wrong hands, it could unleash a massive wave of scams across the country. I want to follow up on what you told my colleagues about this issue earlier today. First of all, have you provided the chairman and ranking member of this committee a review about this incident?
▶ 2:13:04Mr. Bisignano: Yes. Sen. hassan -- >> that's not true. What the witness has answered is not true. He's now said to two united states senators on this committee something that's untruthful. We have not got that information. We'd like it. I don't want my colleague's time to be taken because of my comments.
▶ 2:13:27Sen. Hassan: That would be helpful, because I think your answer was confusing, and I appreciate the clarification from the ranking member. The social security inspector general sent this committee a letter one month ago saying that she is investigating this incident. Is it true that the inspector general is investigating?
▶ 2:13:44Mr. Bisignano: Yes.
▶ 2:13:45Sen. Hassan: Did a doge employee take millions of social security numbers from the social security administration?
▶ 2:13:52Mr. Bisignano: We have no belief that that occurred. And I think we're going to feel really good when the inspector general is done with the report.
▶ 2:14:02Sen. Hassan: The inspector general has been clear in her letter, and without objection, I'd like to introduce the letter from the inspector general dated march 6, 2026. She says she's investigating an anonymous report, but here's my question for you, and it's been clear she's not going to share information with this committee in detail because she doesn't want to compromise an ongoing investigation.
▶ 2:14:27Sen. Hassan: So I assume she is also putting up some level of wall between the leadership of social security and I.r.s. And not discussing the details. So you don't know what the outcome that have investigation is going to be, is that correct?
▶ 2:14:39Mr. Bisignano: 100%.
▶ 2:14:40Sen. Hassan: So let's operate on the fact that if you don't know what the outcome is going --
▶ 2:14:48Mr. Bisignano: I was answering it's 100% she is not communicating during the investigation.
▶ 2:14:54Sen. Hassan: Right, so you don't have any reason to believe there is going to be a finding that the information was stolen or wasn't stolen?
▶ 2:15:07Mr. Bisignano: I believe we're going to find it wasn't stolen. It's an anonymous letter that people have researched inside and out, and the number for general is researching.
▶ 2:15:18Sen. Hassan: Let me ask you this question here as the leader of the I.r.s.
▶ 2:15:30Sen. Hassan: Let's say they find there was theft. At the I.r.s., how are you preparing for the possibility that doge's actions could put million of americans at risk of identity theft? What are you all doing to prepare in case this anonymous report is true?
▶ 2:15:47Mr. Bisignano: Because we brought in outside experts to also take a review of the environment in both organizations. Sen. hassan I'm sorry? I didn't hear that.
▶ 2:15:56Mr. Bisignano: I said we brought in outside experts toen sure that we weren't the only people ensuring that the environment was secure.
▶ 2:16:06Sen. Hassan: The I.r.s. Is doing nothing additional to prepare for the possibility that pretty much every american social security number has gotten into wrong hands and do nothing to prepare for the fact that thoses in numbers and that identity think could be usedded to try to steal people?
▶ 2:16:23Mr. Bisignano: There's no identity theft identified, and it's an anonymous letter.
▶ 2:16:31Sen. Hassan: It's an anonymous letter she's taking seriously and she should, and you should too. I have other questions, I'm over time. I'll submit them for the record. But I just want to go on the record really to follow up a little bit.
▶ 2:16:44Sen. Hassan: One of the lines of questioning is that senator warren was asking, my constituents in new hampshire gets inquiry after inquiry from frustrated constituents who not only have to wait a long time to get through to the I.r.s., but when they get through, they are passed from one person to the next, nobody can really help them, and it is not until the taxpayer advocate gets involved that we get answers, and the taxpayer team has been degraded and we have fewer and fewer of
▶ 2:17:18Sen. Hassan: Them. Will you consider strengthening the office to make sure constituents can get real-time answers to their questions and get their refunds when they are due? Thank you.
▶ 2:17:34Chair Crapo: Senator lujan?
▶ 2:17:37Sen. Lujan: If I could field.
▶ 2:17:41Chair Crapo: I gave her a little bit of leeway because I mistreated her earlier and gave her the floor and took it away. Five minutes. Proceed.
▶ 2:18:00Sen. Lujan: You giveth, the chairman take away, proceed. Thank you for the time. Sir, as you know, today is tax day. I want to follow up with the question there at the end about the time that it's taken people when they're calling in.
▶ 2:18:20Sen. Lujan: I think you committed to everyone here that backlogs and wait times were going to improve under your leadership, and I think that you even reported to the house ways and means committee.
▶ 2:18:32Chair Crapo: Excuse march for a moment. I think I misunderstood your question. Were you asking to yield to senator warnock first? I totally misunderstood. Please go ahead, senator warnock.
▶ 2:18:47Sen. Warnock: Thank you, senator lujan. Thank you. The trump administration has repeatedly attempted to weaponize the I.r.s. Gets its political opponents, which would potentially violate both the law and the first amendment. In april and may of 2025, president trump threatened to revoke the tax-exempt status of harvard university for political reasons. In a september memo, president trump directed the I.r.s.
▶ 2:19:16Sen. Warnock: To investigate tax-exempt entities over their alleged ties to what he considers political violence and domestic terrorism n. December, I.r.s. And f.b.I. Created a tax force to execute the president's directive. Mr. bisignano, how many I.r.s. Agents have been detailed to the department of justice?
▶ 2:19:48Mr. Bisignano: I think 15.
▶ 2:19:51Sen. Warnock: 15?
▶ 2:19:52Mr. Bisignano: 1-5.
▶ 2:19:57Sen. Warnock: Has the president, vice president, any white house staff, or the treasury secretary requested that the I.r.s. Audit, prosecute, or investigate any particular taxpayer or entity?
▶ 2:20:10Mr. Bisignano: No, sir.
▶ 2:20:13Sen. Warnock: If such an unlawful conversation ever occurred, you would immediately report that to congress, including all members of this committee, correct?
▶ 2:20:22Mr. Bisignano: The answer is yes, but I would never expect that to happen.
▶ 2:20:25Sen. Warnock: But the answer is yes?
▶ 2:20:27Mr. Bisignano: Yes.
▶ 2:20:29Sen. Warnock: Last month you testified before the house ways and means committee you were 100% confident that the I.r.s. Would not initiate an audit based on political views. I hear you saying the same thing today. Do you stand, I can assume you stand by that commitment as you've already stated. Will you also commit that the f.b.I. And I.r.s. Task force will never investigate anyone based on their political views?
▶ 2:20:59Mr. Bisignano: I want to be very clear. If you look at the people within I.r.s. That work on these items, and if you look at that 70% of the time, it's on I.r.s. Items, and this has been consistent.
▶ 2:21:30Mr. Bisignano: I think this is very important, sir, I apologize. 30% of the time they're asked to work on other things. The brown university was found by these type of agents. It's not an unusual item where we work with the f.b.I. To solve problems, and brown university --
▶ 2:21:54Sen. Warnock: Let me condition.
▶ 2:21:55Mr. Bisignano: Yeah, sure, I want to make sure you're clear.
▶ 2:22:01Sen. Warnock: They want to investigate groups that support among other views "opposition to immigration enforcement." these are the words of the administration. In january, this administration falsely labeled renee nicole good a domestic terrorist. In your view, a nonviolent protest against I.c.e. Abuses, can that ever be the basis for an investigation by this task force or the I.r.s.?
▶ 2:22:32Mr. Bisignano: Definitely not.
▶ 2:22:35Sen. Warnock: How about bringing litigation against I.c.e. Or another agency? Would that be the basis fouter investigation? Boy no.
▶ 2:22:44Sen. Warnock: If the president announced on social media he would to audit the aclu or naacp, I take it that you would ignore that directive, is that a correct consumption on my part?
▶ 2:22:58Mr. Bisignano: Yeah, we operate --
▶ 2:23:00Sen. Warnock: Is this a correct assumption that you would ignore a request to investigate the acl a request to investigate the ac aclu?
▶ 2:23:11Mr. Bisignano: I said yes.
▶ 2:23:15Sen. Warnock: I ask, because last year the president said in the oval office that he was looking into a nonprofit tax exempt status, so these aren't theoretical questions I'm asking. He said that he was looking into a nonprofit tax exempt status for citizens for responsibility and ethics were "going after donald trump." based on your answers, can you confirm that the I.r.s.
▶ 2:23:41Sen. Warnock: Never acted on the president's statement?
▶ 2:23:51Mr. Bisignano: Yes. Never acted.
▶ 2:23:56Sen. Warnock: The president has criticized environmental activist. Can you confirm these comments have not influenced the I.r.s.?
▶ 2:24:05Mr. Bisignano: No. They have not. No influence on the I.r.s. I asked the I.r.s. To do --
▶ 2:24:13Sen. Warnock: Vice president vance has also criticized the ford foundation, specifically noting its tax exempt status. Can you confirm this statement also has no influence on the I.r.s. In your decisions?
▶ 2:24:27Mr. Bisignano: 100% confirmed.
▶ 2:24:30Sen. Warnock: I'm going to submit a written question asking for detailed report on how many informations the task force has initial I'd, including data on the number of investigations into organizations that support president trump and its policies versus those that oppose the policies. Will you commit to providing my scoffs this committee with that information in writing? Thank you so have much.
▶ 2:25:02Chair Crapo: Thank you. Senator lujan?
▶ 2:25:05Sen. Lujan: Thank you, Mr. chairman. Appreciate that. As I was starting, we've all been reminded today is april 15, tax day. The question that I have follows something that senator hassan was asking about, which is wait times.
▶ 2:25:22Sen. Lujan: There was testimony, I think you provided it to the house ways and means committee recently on march 4 that said "we feel really good about the stay staffing levels" and that "wait times on the phone are single digits." are wait times shorter than when you took over or longer?
▶ 2:25:39Mr. Bisignano: Well, take the developed level of access report from the inspector general, it says 45% of the time, 45% improvement.
▶ 2:25:50Sen. Lujan: Is it longer or shorter? That's all I need to know. Is iis it takinger longer?
▶ 2:26:00Mr. Bisignano: It's taking single digit, and it took single minutes before. But 500 million, Mr. chairman --
▶ 2:26:09Sen. Lujan: Statistics lie. Is it longer or shorter? Is it longer or shorter now? We know the answer.
▶ 2:26:16Mr. Bisignano: Where?
▶ 2:26:19Sen. Lujan: Is it longer or shorter? We know the answer.
▶ 2:26:25Mr. Bisignano: If they reach an agent, it's nine minutes. And 500 million times thee been on line, and hundreds of thousands of times they're doing it through a bot, so there's multiple ways to be served and to be served across the board better than they ever have.
▶ 2:26:46Senator Lujan: Would you disagree that taxpayers are waiting on the phones now longer than when you took over? Affirmative yes. It's doubled. That's the answer.
▶ 2:26:59Mr. Bisignano: If you only care about that one statistic, then you don't care about getting tax returns processed, or if you don't care --
▶ 2:27:08Sen. Lujan: Are tax returns being returned to people faster or slower under your leadership?
▶ 2:27:13Mr. Bisignano: Way faster.
▶ 2:27:16Sen. Lujan: You are going to say on the record the a.I. Tool that you instituted are actually working?
▶ 2:27:21Mr. Bisignano: 100%.
▶ 2:27:23Sen. Lujan: There's another unfactual statement based on reporting that's coming out of g.a.o. As well, which is not necessarily a liberal organization, but I'd like to follow up with him.
▶ 2:27:33Mr. Bisignano: So over 90% of refunds are in people's hands in less than 21 days. When did you have that?
▶ 2:27:41Sen. Lujan: You can refute the report, we'll submit them into the report, and that way the chairman and his staff can see what's factual and not. There was an issue raised by the ranking member at the beginning of this. Is it correct you live in new jersey?
▶ 2:28:01Mr. Bisignano: I live in new jersey, yes.
▶ 2:28:06Sen. Lujan: Are you aware that went into effect in 2025?
▶ 2:28:13Mr. Bisignano: 100%.
▶ 2:28:16Sen. Lujan: Do you work in washington, D.C. monday through friday?
▶ 2:28:19Mr. Bisignano: No, I also work in the social security office.
▶ 2:28:22Sen. Lujan: In washington, D.C. you're here monday and friday?
▶ 2:28:27Mr. Bisignano: No, in maryland. You're asking me a question, I'm telling you where I am.
▶ 2:28:33Sen. Lujan: What I'm trying to get to, there's reports suggesting you work two days a week.
▶ 2:28:38Mr. Bisignano: Well, those reports are dead wrong.
▶ 2:28:41Sen. Lujan: You're stating on the record that you're working in maryland and washington, D.C. monday through friday, five days a week?
▶ 2:28:47Mr. Bisignano: No, I may be in georgia. I may be in florida.
▶ 2:28:52Sen. Lujan: Are you following the president's executive order?
▶ 2:28:56Mr. Bisignano: Hours every day.
▶ 2:28:59Sen. Lujan: I'd like to submit a "new york times" article that has laid this out with as many as five people familiar with the schedule. I just don't know if president trump has approved the two-day week or not, butyou work to work week or not, butyou work to woro get the truth out of that.
▶ 2:29:32Sen. Lujan: >> thank you. Senator tillis.
▶ 2:29:33Sen. Tillis: Thank you. On that last exchange, I find it hard to believe that you are hanging out in your gym shorts in new jersey doing zooms all moving across the country going to various offices with irs employees. I will answer that question for you. I do appreciate my colleagues on the other side of the aisle asking people to honor the president's executive order. That is great progress. Good to see you.
▶ 2:30:05Sen. Tillis: I also think it would be helpful to submit to the record, I used to do customer relationship management, the firm I worked in. All the stats are important. The end result, getting the filings, getting the returns are most important. So I think it would be helpful to submit to the record all the vital statistics on your customer relationship management , customer experience, for the record. On the whole, I think you will find they are good.
▶ 2:30:33Sen. Tillis: I am also glad that the free file system has come down. What I am curious about is whether or not we are going back. I was against free file from the beginning. I felt like we should be working with people in the private sector to have free file systems because it eliminates a infrastructure need.
▶ 2:30:56Sen. Tillis: All the other things that the irs should have never gotten into, you get reports on the stranded costs and how you are ramping that down. No need for details today. Also wanted to mention that senator warnock's comments, I am not sure, he was not in the senate at the time, but I am kind of curious with lois lerner and the irs had keywords like tea party, patriots, 912 project clearly targeting, hopefully
▶ 2:31:27Sen. Tillis: They can memorialize for the record that that was an appropriate targeting, and that was blatant and happened under the watch of some of the people on this committee who were serving at the time. By the way, one of the reasons why we have more calls his people figuring out how to take advantage of some of the jobs and tax cuts provisions that were implemented last year, there are new provisions. My guess is some of the implementations are delayed so they will have to refile to get the benefit of some of them.
▶ 2:31:59Sen. Tillis: I think that is a legitimate reason to have more calls and more customer service telling people how they will save more money as a result of congressional actions last year. There is a good reason sometimes for people to call the irs. I also want to think a number of the people in the irs that my office works with every day, they do extraordinary casework, and we get great feedback from them. I had personally called some of the staff and some regional offices to thank them for the extraordinary work they are doing. And I appreciate that work.
▶ 2:32:32Sen. Tillis: I have two things to talk about from a business perspective. One is some of the efficiency cuts, whether it be doge or decisions you all made, not for you to respond now, but I would like to get details on reductions that are sustainable that we should be look at in terms of booking as a savings.
▶ 2:32:55Sen. Tillis: We have to go back to the administration and find where we can identify savings and funding, and I think that is one area, for all agencies, I am asking, where are we getting sustainable savings that are bookable savings, going back to the business world view and I used to live in. It has to be there. It is not a savings unless you book it. It is aspirational up to that point.
▶ 2:33:20Sen. Tillis: Let's start talking about some back maybe for the record or you can submit to my office. Finally, the tax gap. To me, it was always the fake pay for. Everybody says we just get more agents are more people and we will pay for this other program to the tax gap, almost about as bogus as using the employee retention tax credit as a pay for, which I have been pretty consistent on.
▶ 2:33:47Sen. Tillis: But I would like, if we could, to set up a meeting similar to a meeting we had with senator crapo and the ranking member before on what we should really expect out of the tax gap. I think what you will find out is one third at the tax gap is really good tax policy from tax advisors, not recoverable because it is legal.
▶ 2:34:11Sen. Tillis: The middle one is probably the one we can get back, lower third is not worth going after because it is relatively low wage earners. That is my mental construct. I would like to meet with you and maybe get the update. I did get one from the irs, commissioner, so we can be realistic about what -- Mr.
▶ 2:34:29Bisignano: I call it the addressable tax gap.
▶ 2:34:32Sen. Tillis: Thank you for your time. I want to finish on time.
▶ 2:34:34Chair Crapo: Thank you, senator tillis. Senator wyden would like to ask -- oh, wait, senator marshall came in.
▶ 2:34:42Sen. Marshall: Thank you, chairman, and welcome, commissioner. Good to see you. I want to stop and say thank you. You have a great american story, and I hope folks back home are listening. A kid from brooklyn, new york -- is that what I remember?
▶ 2:34:58Mr. Bisignano: Yes, sir.
▶ 2:35:01Sen. Marshall: You end up in baldwin city, kansas, the baker university, all-american varsity athlete, end up as I financial guru. Just a kid from a small town college can be just as successful. It is not lost upon me that this is a service that you are doing. Much like going to the military, what you're doing now is giving back to this country and bringing your expertise. I am grateful for it.
▶ 2:35:30Sen. Marshall: Many americans are grateful for it, as well. I would like to start with, it is tax day, the day most americans dread. In my research, I found it maybe 60% of americans typically gay -- typically get some type of refund, but this year I think the number will be over 70%. It is significant numbers per the numbers I am seeing is $2000 to $4000. Hard-working families, probably $2000 is closer.
▶ 2:36:02Sen. Marshall: People making over $400,000 will get that big a refund. What I am impressed with his your attention to detail, specifically operational and technical expertise. Can you briefly speak to what you are doing to improve things? And what majors are you using to say, indeed, we are operationally improving in our technical processes, as well?
▶ 2:36:25Mr. Bisignano: First of all, I think one of the most impressive stats we have is 500 million visits and queries to irs.gov, which is a 60% improvement. That did not just happen because people woke up and thought they should use the system more, it happened because we build way more capability for them to use. And that changed the amount of phone calls we got, we actually got less phone calls than last year.
▶ 2:36:56Mr. Bisignano: That happened, and I think the idea that we were able to raise electronic filing even by a full 1%, from 97% to over 98%. And I hear people want to dismiss the item or they have some report of something other than reality, the fact that over 90% of people are getting refunds in 21 days or less is unheard of.
▶ 2:37:27Mr. Bisignano: How that all happened, it happened with the good work of the people in the organization and preparedness and discipline, management discipline, to oversee and discuss every week the progress. So I think the idea of being a digital first agency is appropriate.
▶ 2:37:48Mr. Bisignano: I think that is what the american public, they want to be met with, they want to be met -- if it is in a taxpayer service center, if it is on the phones, or if it is on the web.
▶ 2:38:02Sen. Marshall: Meeting people where they are, my staff back home is very supportive of volunteering income tax assistance, vita, and folks from k state extension are helping people with taxes. We hope you continue to support those. I kind of have a one-off thing, 45z issue with dodge city, kansas, and anaerobic lagoon. I will submit that question and ask you to get back with us on that.
▶ 2:38:31Sen. Marshall: I wanted to just brag that we lead this no tax on overtime wages. I grew up in a family that worked by the hour and just was so frustrated in my years when I was working overtime and trying to get myself through school, getting high taxes on that. I think it is the most successful of all the no taxes, no tax on overtime, 20 3 million people. Any comments on that one?
▶ 2:38:58Mr. Bisignano: Yeah, you know, I think and have heard it from people, I would say maybe the most interesting thing is people want to work overtime now more than they did.
▶ 2:39:11Sen. Marshall: Thank goodness.
▶ 2:39:12Mr. Bisignano: So business owners are fitting -- benefiting from it, people are benefiting from it. Over 25 million filers. And I would say they are getting deductions of $3100, a little over that, and that is real money. You guys have done a fabulous job --
▶ 2:39:33Sen. Marshall: Thanks for implementing it. The less when I will tee up for you, I was trying to review the numbers of irs employees, and maybe in 2019 I see 78,000. It ballooned to 103,000 under the previous administration. Not sure where those numbers are now. But more importantly, give you a sense to brag, I feel like you are getting more done with less people.
▶ 2:39:56Mr. Bisignano: Yeah, I am a deep believer and parkinson's law. And I think the org, technology is a great enabler. We have to get the benefit of everything we end up -- implemented. I think we have a highly motivated staff, a highly motivated staff who has done a great job. Thank you. Good to see you.
▶ 2:40:17Chair Crapo: Thank you, senator marshall. Sit in her white and has one more question, then we will conclude the hearing.
▶ 2:40:25Sen. Wyden: Today, of course, is tax day, and we are wrapping it up with hard evidence of how you and the trump administration are making this day needlessly painful, particularly for working americans.
▶ 2:40:45Sen. Wyden: They are wondering this morning why they have to pay hundreds of dollars to big tax prep companies when filing returns ought to be free, and the fact is millions and millions of people around the world get to do just that.
▶ 2:41:08Sen. Wyden: And this is another example, in my view, of donald trump doing more to make life more expensive for working americans. And I know that you are going to come back with saying, well, 2 million people will get help with what we're doing. The reality is, from independent experts, 100 million could benefit from direct file.
▶ 2:41:37Sen. Wyden: So I would just like something that is not bobbing and weaving or, in the case of senator whitehouse and senator hassan, I had to correct was just untrue. So just tell me your opinion why we cannot have something like everybody else have around the world, which is being able to file simple returns for free? Not talking about sophisticated returns and the like.
▶ 2:42:06Sen. Wyden: But what is wrong with doing what we are talking about that matches what goes on all over the world? What is wrong with that?
▶ 2:42:15Mr. Bisignano: Well, there is nothing wrong with it. Those options exist, free file.
▶ 2:42:22Sen. Wyden: Why don't you do it?
▶ 2:42:24Mr. Bisignano: Free file exists.
▶ 2:42:26Sen. Wyden: No, they still are not getting the same thing that they are getting with direct file. And the big firms are getting the benefits. They get the chance to get on the visibility and all the attention. That is why the rest of the world wants to directly help working families. And I am just -- maybe you want to send it in in writing, but that is what I came here for today more than anything else, because that strikes me as something that is just common sense. It is not blue and red, it is just common sense.
▶ 2:42:57Sen. Wyden: Mr. chairman, I do not think I am getting an answer to this either. I yield my time.
▶ 2:43:03Chair Crapo: Well, thank you. I think I have some information I can share with you. I will do so after the hearing, senator.
▶ 2:43:11Sen. Wyden: Let's start talking about how working families all over the world are getting what we have been pursuing, and I have been at this for years. For years. And it was always bipartisan. Then along came donald trump, who made it partisan. I just think it is a big mistake for working families. For the life of me, I cannot understand why it is unacceptable to you that we do something that helps working families for free all over the world. Thank you for the time.
▶ 2:43:41Chair Crapo: Thank you. Let me just share the information with you right now. Bottom line is, there are multiple free filing options available to taxpayers. 70% of all U.S. taxpayers are eligible for irs free file, a private public partnership.
▶ 2:43:58Chair Crapo: In addition, there is the ita, which is a program which provides volunteer income tax assistance to the elderly, of which is available also for the elderly at a fraction of the cost to the government and to the people. Preparing these returns.
▶ 2:44:22Chair Crapo: 2 million -- 2.1 million people are using these public partnerships --
▶ 2:44:30Sen. Wyden: That is a fraction, I would just say, to the chairman, of the people who ought to have the opportunity to get direct fun.
▶ 2:44:37Chair Crapo: Let me tell you, ok, the number who did use the direct file system when it was being implemented by the irs was 200 96,531 people. That is compared to 2.7 million who used the vita free system and 2.1 million he used the free file free system. The cost to the 296,000 who were using that direct file program was phenomenally high to the irs.
▶ 2:45:07Sen. Wyden: All I am saying, Mr. chairman, as I know that the big prep firms spend a ton of money lobbying all over the country and all over washington, but they have been doing it through my proposals for years now, and the reality is there is no commonsense reason to not do what is being done around the world. And I think we will continue the discussion you and I have had on this for sometime.
▶ 2:45:31Chair Crapo: Alright, we will. It should be stated again though that senator wyden and I are working closely together on the taxpayer assistance bill that will provide a lot of good reforms we can find agreement on, and we are finding bipartisan support for that. I just want to say to you, thank you, for being here today at this hearing but also for the service you are providing, both of the social security administration and at the irs.
▶ 2:45:58Chair Crapo: You are bringing top-notch qualified, capable leadership to reforming and approving the function of both these agencies, entities, and I thank you for that. We have had an outstanding tax season, no matter how they come at it trying to say it wasn't, it has improved over the previous tax seasons we have had, and the thing I liked most about what you are doing is you are bringing technology reform into the government.
▶ 2:46:26Chair Crapo: You are bringing us into the 21st century. In terms of being able to serve people through technological advances in the digital economy. We have pushed for years to get the irs to do this. You are doing it. Thank you for doing that. With that, this hearing is concluded.
▶ 2:46:47Mr. Bisignano: Thank you, sir.