▶ 0:25:43Chair Cramer: This hearing will come to order. This morning we held a hearing on the posture of the indo-pacific committee and U.S. forces korea. I'd like to thank admiral paparo and general brunson for their service to our country. This committee appreciates their service, and we're grateful for the ethos that has long been the defining characteristic of america's general and flag officers. Thank you, gentlemen.
▶ 0:26:13Chair Cramer: We speak today and we meet today at a time of global turmoil. Despite the doubts of our own intelligence community and many others, ukraine continues to outperform conventional wisdom. Now in the fifth year of putin's illegal war of choice in the middle east, president trump's second decisive action in 47 years of aggressive by the ayatollahs.
▶ 0:26:38Chair Cramer: Amid those wars, we must remember this -- china is the leader of the axis of aggressors. The people's republic of china intends to and is capable of preventing an american-led 21st century. We cannot ignore the implications of xi jinping's aggression. The chinese communist party and its people liberation army have spent decades studying the american way of war.
▶ 0:27:06Chair Cramer: This has informed their massive military modernization effort. The p.l.a. Now feels the world's largest navy. Its nuclear triad is growing at a breathtaking pace. It possesses an increasingly capable air force armed with world-class munitions. China's military strategy has transitioned. It has moved from a mostly asymmetric competitive approach to a more comprehensive strategy.
▶ 0:27:35Chair Cramer: Their goal is to achieve decisive advantage over the U.S. and our allies in the indo-pacific. We also recognize the danger posed by a nuclear-armed north korea. Kim jong un is a cruel and ruthless despot. Worse, he possesses nuclear weapons and possesses the means to deliver them.
▶ 0:27:59Chair Cramer: He's demonstrated a high tolerance for risk taking, and he is backed by his nuclear armed partners, xi and putin. The north korean army has gained valuable insights on modern warfare from its experience supporting russia's invasion of ukraine. North korea will remember what it learned from drone and missile use in ukraine. It continues to learn lessons.
▶ 0:28:25Chair Cramer: Right now, it is thinking about how to employ these capabilities on the korean peninsula. Russia has repaid kim for supporting its illegal invasion of ukraine by providing north korea with advanced military technology and financial relief. While vladimir putin creates mayhem in europe, it is not long on this committee that he also actively works to undermine the existing order in the indo-pacific.
▶ 0:28:55Chair Cramer: Putin has revitalized his partnership with the kim regime, and he has deepened russia's comprehensive strategic partnership with xi and the chinese communist party. The growing alignment of our adversaries throws into sharp relief the enduring importance of america's allies and the way they helped protect our strategic interests.
▶ 0:29:25Chair Cramer: For decades, our alliance bonds, including nato, have provided a comparative advantage over authoritarian states, like china, north korea, russia, and iran. These alliances continue to pay dividends for the united states. People need to stop saying otherwise.
▶ 0:29:51Chair Cramer: It is not helpful when american leaders speak of our alliances with derision. But we must be clear about the numerous political strategic and moral benefits that our country receives from its alliances. Some have suggested that our allies have become little more than dependents on the united states. These skeptics argue that the united states must shift the burden, and that word shift is what I have a problem with.
▶ 0:30:23Chair Cramer: They argue we must shift the burden of defense and deterrents from the united states and on to our allies in europe and asia. I do not agree with these skeptics. Of course I'm glad to see america's allies stepping up, as they are doing all over the world. But there's a difference between burden shifting and burden sharing. The president has called for increased burden sharing, and I support that. But the way we execute that vision matters.
▶ 0:30:53Chair Cramer: We americans have a massive stake in maintaining a favorable balance of power in both asia and europe. It remains a vital interest to the united states and cannot yet be delegated to others, not even on tower closest allies -- to even to our closest allies. Burden shifting suggests the united states has a limited stake in conflicts that erupt or could erupt in these key regions.
▶ 0:31:24Chair Cramer: Burden shifting implies abdication rather than collective responsibility. Upholding our interests in the indo-pacific requires the cultivation of a robust alliance network, what we call burden sharing. Which I agree with. The western pacific is far from the american homeland, and that distance has long placed a premium on strong and persistent forward presence in the region.
▶ 0:31:52Chair Cramer: This presence allows us to defend our interests in the indo-pacific and to project power from there into other regions of the world. It's worth noting that america's alliance network is comprised of like-minded democracies and free market economies. The importance of this fact cannot be overstated. Unlike authoritarian countries, the foundation of the U.S.
▶ 0:32:25Chair Cramer: Alliance network is built upon the explicit support of its respective electorates. Our alliances depend on each nation's internal domestic political support. Again, this is crucial. Every military alliance requires negotiation and compromise. Every military alliance requires negotiation and compromise. Alliances by definition are a two-way street.
▶ 0:32:52Chair Cramer: They require patience and appreciation for the political drivers of the parties and a willingness to undertake political military and economic risk on behalf of one another. Popular support from free people gives legitimacy to those necessary compromises. We must continue to modernize our alliances to match today's threats and capabilities. But any reform should make us stronger and safer.
▶ 0:33:19Chair Cramer: They should not detract from this strategic imperative of deterring aggression and coercion by china, north korea, and russia. I look forward to hearing how our witnesses are working with our japanese, south korean, filipino, australian, and taiwanese allies, among others, to strengthen our strategic position in the indo-pacific.
▶ 0:33:47Chair Cramer: With that, I thank our witnesses for being here and turn to my colleague, ranking member reed. Senator reed? >> thank you very much. Admiral pack what are owe, general brunson, welcome, and thank you for your distinguished service over a lifetime of dedication to the country and to the men and women that you lead. Please convey our appreciation and support for these extraordinary americans that you be command.
▶ 0:34:17Chair Cramer: President trump's war of choice in iran has resulted in significant military posture changes in the indo-pacific region and on the korean peninsula. Over the past two months, president trump has transformed major military capabilities out of your theaters to central command, including a terror strike group, amphibious ready group, various missile defense capabilities, and other munitions. Admiral paparo and general brunson, I would like to understand your assessment of the effect of these transfers on your capabilities.
▶ 0:34:49Chair Cramer: Long-range strike weapons and missile interceptors are not quickly replaced. Current production rates, reconstituting what we have expended could take years. The decisions president trump has played in iran will impact the readiness in the indo-pacific for a long time to come. I'm also deeply concerned about what our adversaries are learning.
▶ 0:35:11Chair Cramer: China and north korea watch the united statessen gauge in sustained, high-intensity warfare requiring massive expenditures of the exact munitions that are most critical for deterrents in the indo-pacific. I would like your candid assessment of what lesson the beijing and pyongyang are drawing from this conflict and how those lessons may affect their long-term planning.
▶ 0:35:38Chair Cramer: Relatedly, admiral paparo, on december 8 the president announced he would allow the sale of advanced h200 semiconductor chips to china, a category of chip previously prohibited because of its ability to accelerate chinese military capabilities, including artificial intelligence. This committee has long agreed on a bipartisan basis that our national defense is predicated on maintaining a qualitative technological edge over china.
▶ 0:36:06Chair Cramer: I want to know whether you were consulted before this decision was made and whether you believe selling advanced semiconductor chips to china is consistent with maintaining a favorable balance of military power in the indo-pacific. General brunson, there are also persistent and troubling reports the administration is considering reductions to U.S. posture in south korea.
▶ 0:36:30Chair Cramer: Last year, you testified that america's presence in korea provides, in your words, unmatched access, unmatched deterrence, at minimum cal cost. You also made clear that U.S. force presence in korea is not solely about north korea. Our presence creates dilemmas for china in the yellow sea, and it poses costs on russia in the east sea. I would ask your assessment of what troop reductions for mean for deterrent as cross those vectors.
▶ 0:36:59Chair Cramer: I would also note this committee voted to include a provision in the fiscal year 2026ndaa to prohibit any reduction of troops in korea without a full assessment of the risk involved and certification to congress. Admiral paparo, general brunson, you lead our forces in the most strategically consequential theater in the world, against the most capable potential adversaries the united states faces.
▶ 0:37:26Chair Cramer: The decision being made in the white house right now on its wars 6 choice on munitions, on semiconductor sales, on america's alliances will determine whether deterrence hold. I thank you for your leadership at this critical time and look forward to your testimony. Thank you. Mr. chairman?
▶ 0:37:45Chair Cramer: I understand each of you has opening statements. Who would like to go first?
▶ 0:38:00Adm. Paparo: I would like to call attention to eric cook, united states marine corps right behind me. And his charge as the fighting forces morale, that combination of physical, mental, and spiritual readiness that is the key fee for in combat. This is the essence of readiness and the ability to prevail this morale, this sergeant major cook leads and our enlisted force led by our highly professional n.c.o.
▶ 0:38:29Adm. Paparo: Corps are the backbone, the body, and the soul of the joint force, and I'd like to acknowledge sergeant major cook and all that he represents. The indo-pacific is the defining strategic theater of the 21st century, where all four lines of effort in the national defense strategy converge. That is safeguarding the united states homeland, especially including those elements that are in the indo-pacific.
▶ 0:39:01Adm. Paparo: Deterring china, sharing with our allies, and supercharging the industrial base, indo-pacific command puts those priorities into action every single day. The sea has long been a highway for trade and a vector for power projection, and it's also becoming increasingly an end unto itself as a source of food, energy, minerals, and strategic leverage. China's force design since 2009 reflects that reality.
▶ 0:39:31Adm. Paparo: Since 2024, china has delivered 20 submarines, including nuclear attack submarines and nuclear ballistic missile submarines, and aircraft carrier, two cruisers, 10 destroyers, seven frigates, as well as amphibious and combat logistics force. That scale is for the projection of power, coercion, and to enforce the rules in every relationship. North korea continues to threaten the U.S.
▶ 0:39:58Adm. Paparo: Homeland and our allies with nuclear weapons and ballistic missiles, and russia has increased its force posture of air missile mary time in the indo-pacific and the increasing strategic cooperation among them all is deeply concerning. Our strategy is clear. To deny china from achieving its objectives through military aggression, through deterrent, deterrence is our highest duty.
▶ 0:40:27Adm. Paparo: We deter with dynamic combat power, conducting operation every day, with allies and partners, and across domains. Our allies and partners increase our combat capability and capacity, expand and extend operational reach and strengthen deterrence. Yesterday we began the largest ever exercise in the republic of the philippines. This exercise demonstrates a significant leap in allied firepower, integrating U.S.
▶ 0:40:56Adm. Paparo: Land base tom ahawks with philippine missiles and japanese anti-ship missiles. Our alliances are rapidly fielding capabilities. We're adapting to the changing character of war faye, and we're driving towards information and decision superiority.
▶ 0:41:16Adm. Paparo: We're accelerating decision making through our headquarters and our a.I.-enabled commands, strengthening our posture, improving integrate air and missile defenses, hardening key infrastructure, and increasing the emissions through put. Congress and the department have provided the resources now industry must deliver. With your continued support, we'll preserve peace through strength and defend a free and open indo-pacific.
▶ 0:41:46Adm. Paparo: I now defer to general brunson, and most especially your questions.
▶ 0:41:51Chair Wicker: General brunson, you are recognized, sir.
▶ 0:41:55Gen. Brunson: Thank you, chairman wicker. Ranking member reed, distinguished members of the committee, thank you for the opportunity to speak to you today alongside admiral paparo regarding the security environment in the republic of korea and northeast asia. I would like to first thank those who sit behind me who got me here to this hearing today, have helped me to prepare and represent the members of our force in the united states forces korea.
▶ 0:42:21Gen. Brunson: I'd also extend my gratitude to the 17 other united nations member states, australia, belgium, canada, colombia, denmark, france, germany, greece, italy, netherlands, new zealand, norway, the philippines, south africa, thailand, turkey, and the united kingdom. But I especially thank the korean people for their continued partnership, hospitality, and commitment to our alliance.
▶ 0:42:49Gen. Brunson: The korea peninsula's key strategic terrain, vital to defending the american homeland, advancing american interests in the region, our forces in korea are modernizing to address rapidly evolving strategic dilemmas. That's why my focus remains strictly on capabilities over numbers. While our presence is a baseline, it's imperative that we maintain focus on the precise capabilities that must be resident on the peninsula.
▶ 0:43:15Gen. Brunson: To truly understand this shift from capacity to capability, ien courage the committee to observe the tricommand firsthand. Should you visit us, you will see, as senator shaheen has, the readiness exemplified by our service members, civil servants, allies, and interagency partners who defend the homelands. Across the peninsula, our war fighters build readiness.
▶ 0:43:41Gen. Brunson: Some examples include eighth armies, continued work along with our rotational force, which has led them to exceed 90% on most of their readiness metrics. The continued integration of seventh air force marine corps forces korea, naval forces korea, special operations command korea, and space forces korea, those components in paycom exercises demonstrate the potential to project power from korea in support of deterrence
▶ 0:44:11Gen. Brunson: Across the greater indo-pacific. A key component of readiness is our facilities. We are improving our infrastructure to synchronize U.S. space forces and other components, while seizing theater opportunities to ■conduc theater opportunities to ■condut integrated sustainment. And forward repair with our allies, partners and the joint force.
▶ 0:44:34Gen. Brunson: Across the information domain, we not only communicate the centrality of the region to american interests, but actively maneuver to neutralize misinformation and disinformation. The tricommand, united nations command, combined forces command, and U.S. forces korea stand ready and capable to support a favorable balance of power across the region that deo deters aggression.
▶ 0:45:03Gen. Brunson: Our presence has evolved our alliances over decades from dependencies to true partnerships. While our cooperation and commitment to the region has maintained the armistice and deterred large-scale implicate, our forces must remain vigilant. Together with the department, our interagency teams, the united states congress, our multinational allies and partners, we will continue to demonstrate american strength in the region so that a favorable peace prevails. Under one flag, we go together.
▶ 0:45:38Chair Wicker: You may have to help the transcriber on that last sentence. Admiral, you gave us a number of countries. Why did you list them specifically, sir?
▶ 0:45:54Adm. Paparo: What I hope to do is to thank them for their continued contribution to the core of the united nations command. Each of those countries I mentioned has, over the year and a half or so that I've been in command, had officers and soldiers within our headquarters in the united nations command, sir.
▶ 0:46:14Chair Wicker: Ok, thank you very much for that. Admiral, I want to ask about our overseas military bases. Of course, we know they're not sovereign U.S. territory. The territory belongs to the various countries who host us. All allies and partners require some form of prior consultation to allow forces to operate. That is a correct statement, is it not, admiral?
▶ 0:46:45Adm. Paparo: Thank you, chairman.
▶ 0:46:48Chair Wicker: As reviewed in its national defense strategy and the review, d.o.d. Is now pressing allies to provide uncaveated and unimpeded access from bases located in their country. Is this realistic? I have three questions, which I'll just ask at once. Our overseas bases provide this benefit.
▶ 0:47:17Chair Wicker: Is it realistic to seek uncaveated and unconstrained access to these bases? Is there anything you want to do now that you cannot do under existing basing arrangements? Is it realistic to expect our allies, even our closest ones, to provide unfettered access basing overflight with no operational restrictions?
▶ 0:47:47Gen. Brunson: Chairman, I think it's sensible to gain assurances in the unforgiving hour we'll be able to employ those bases for our own planning. And I think it's pragmatic to understand that each of our allies and partners will experience various civil pressures within those that they govern. And I think going a long way to gain assurances from our partners is a practical and sensible approach.
▶ 0:48:14Gen. Brunson: I think it enhances our plannings, but I think it also must be approached with the pragmatism that each government is accountable to people and will make deeper decisions when the unforgiving hour comes.
▶ 0:48:25Chair Wicker: Ok, my second followup question was, what can we not do now -- is there anything we cannot currently do under existing basing arrangements?
▶ 0:48:41Gen. Brunson: Chairman, there are frequent occasions when we would prefer to execute certain operations or certain live fire operations, and our host nations are sensitive for domestic reasons. So it's always a negotiation with our allies and partners. And we always do so within the faith that our allies and partners want to go as far as they practically can.
▶ 0:49:06Gen. Brunson: But certainly there's always limits, or I should say, there's frequently instances where there's things that we would like to do, but we can't do it, because the host government is sensitive to public opinion. It is in the presence of populations, and we work through with good faith.
▶ 0:49:28Chair Wicker: Ok, and then in the minute we have, let's talk about replacing both exquisite traditional munitions and newer low-cost munitions. We fire lots of weapons in operation epic fury. Secretary feinberg has a plan to increase production of exquisite munitions, such as those made by lockheed and raytheon.
▶ 0:50:00Chair Wicker: Will that take time, and can you give us an idea of how much time? And is it time also to go all in on low-cost munitions, including cruise missiles, hyper sonics, long-range drones and unmanned vessels?
▶ 0:50:18Gen. Brunson: Senator, yes and yes. We have to innovate to go faster. I think it will take one to two years for them to scale. It won't be soon enough. And I think that we really must press the system with nontraditional vendors, bringing to bear new, low-cost munitions, such as hyper sonics, low-cost cruise missiles, and then across a variety of droned and unmanned systems.
▶ 0:50:46Chair Wicker: Thank you for your answer there, particularly on the low-cost munitions. Is it possible for us to invent views the exquisite manufacturers, such as lockheed, raytheon, and others to go faster?
▶ 0:51:00Gen. Brunson: It most certainly is. I think that the department is putting a great deal of accountability and pressure on the primes. Thus far the progress is good, and I'm eager for more.
▶ 0:51:10Chair Wicker: And so are we. Thank you very much. Senator reed?
▶ 0:51:13Sen. Reed: Thank you very much, Mr. chairman, and general paparo and general brunson, let me command your staff. From my early experience, I know how hard it is to sit at attention. So thank you. Well done. Admiral paparo, I'll just follow on the chairman's question, which is basically we've extended a great deal of ordnance in the iran combat. It has some effect on you.
▶ 0:51:46Sen. Reed: The question going forward, though, is if we resume a rate of fire similar to what we were doing, do you have an idea of how long we could fire without creating severe effects on your command? Adm. Pap adm. P
▶ 0:52:02Gen. Brunson: First, I acknowledge your statement, and I deliver that in a classified setting. But there are finite limits to the magazine, and I have all the faith in the world they're being employed judiciously.
▶ 0:52:15Sen. Reed: Thank you very much. General brunson, our present military situation in south korea, I assume, but you can confirm, that it's creating some significant strategic and operational dilemmas for the chinese. Could you indicate or discuss those?
▶ 0:52:37Adm. Paparo: Ranking member, in the open, what I would say is we have positional advantage currently. I've written articles out there right now that talk about the positional advantage achieved by changing our perspective of looking at a map differently.
▶ 0:52:52Adm. Paparo: It places us with interior lines, inside the first island chain, and what that allows us to do from that position alone is, as we operate on o.a.I.'s, it allows us to operate from a different aperture to project power into the region and achieve effect, significant effect, I might add. I also believe that the imposition of cost is a thing when we marry capabilities with position on the ground geographically.
▶ 0:53:22Adm. Paparo: And that I would call or term posture truly. To achieve significant effect.
▶ 0:53:37Sen. Reed: I talked about the proposed sale of chips, the h200 chip. Do you have any concerns that you would like to comment upon?
▶ 0:53:48Adm. Paparo: Ranking member, I would every competitive advantage the united states of america can have, and that includes a.I.-powered warfare. Indo-paycom is a combat. They've taken intellectual property that's ever been shared to the trade and technology stack, and they've not only implemented it, but they've improved upon it.
▶ 0:54:12Adm. Paparo: So I have deep concerns with anything that enables them to become a better a.I.-powered headquarters than our headquarters.
▶ 0:54:22Sen. Reed: I share your concerns. I think they're legitimate and compelling. Thank you. Admiral paparo, what lessons do you think the chinese have learned from operation epic fury?
▶ 0:54:39Adm. Paparo: I think number one, I think they're impressed by the operational acumen that's been demonstrated by the united states and our partners. Number two, I think they see the power of small, low-cost munitions on thability to hold key geography at risk, and so have we. And we see that. And who implements that the fastest is absolutely the best, is going to be the best here in the 21st century.
▶ 0:55:07Adm. Paparo: And I think the key is that all forces learn a lot, including a lot of combat experience. We have to continue to accelerate that learning and bring that to bear. That's a key advantage that the indo-pacific forces that have engaged in combat in this operation that our would-be ad very varies is not had, and we need to accelerate that.
▶ 0:55:33Sen. Reed: Final question, I have a few seconds remaining. There is roughly analogy between the situation in taiwan and ukraine. Asymmetric warfare will be what the taiwanese practice against the chinese. Are we focusing now on the lessons in ukraine, drone warfare, all of the ingenuity in ukraine? Is that the approach we're taking with the taiwanese?
▶ 0:56:05Adm. Paparo: That's a key emphasis. You're aware of the hellscape strategy. The fact that low-cost munitions, drone war makes assault much, much more costly to assaulting forces, bringing those lessons to bear to the max extent possible is an imperative.
▶ 0:56:23Sen. Reed: Thank you very much.
▶ 0:56:26Chair Wicker: Senator fischer?
▶ 0:56:28Sen. Fischer: Thank you both and the members of our military that you serve with for the important work you do every single day. Thank you. Admirable, the current program of record for at least 100 bombers, that's not sufficient.
▶ 0:56:47Sen. Fischer: When accounting for both nuclear and conventional bomber requirements, would you agree we need toe procure at least 145 b21's, and shouldn't we be seriously considering at least 200?
▶ 0:57:00Adm. Paparo: Senator fischer, good morning. I would favor 200 b21 bombers, not just for the nuclear deterrence mission, but for penetrating strike capabilities. I couldn't be a stronger advocate.
▶ 0:57:16Sen. Fischer: Thank you. We need to continue both requirements, and yours and indo paycom, correct?
▶ 0:57:24Adm. Paparo: I would say that, and this is among my strongest partners. We're in lock step on this. We don't view a separateness of our individual requirement. We view ourselves as teammates side by side on the journey.
▶ 0:57:38Sen. Fischer: Thank you. Also, while the nuclear threats are also considered, they obviously have a serious implication in indo pay com.
▶ 0:57:55Sen. Fischer: Can you describe your view of the nuclear expansion and the impact that more numerous and capable chinese nuclear forces in the region have from your perspective as a geographic combatant commander?
▶ 0:58:10Adm. Paparo: The next five years I expect china's nuclear arsenal to nearly double. And that, taken in sum with their comprehensive strategic partner, their no limits partnership with russia, and with their arsenal, it's a concern. We've got to overmatch that capability. We have to continue to modernize the U.S. nuclear deterrent, including tactical nuclear forces.
▶ 0:58:38Sen. Fischer: You've mentioned the importance of allies and partners. And in the indo-pacific region, that includes several that depend upon our nuclear umbrella, our nuclear deterrence guarantees. Based on your interaction with these allies and partners how do you believe they would view a delay or cancellation of our nuclear modernization effort or rhetoric to that effect? And to what extent would they be concerned?
▶ 0:59:10Adm. Paparo: You rightly identify, it would be a deep concern on the part of our allies and partners. They depend, I should say they depend. We together rely very strongly on extended deterrence. They view that with concern, and they'd be right to.
▶ 0:59:28Sen. Fischer: Admiral, you know as well as anyone the challenges that are posed by the vast distances in the indo-pacific, and being able to connect those ships and the aircraft with fuel, that's going to be crucial. In your opening statement, you stated our tanker fleet falls below requirements.
▶ 0:59:48Sen. Fischer: How are you working with general reed to address those refueling needs?
▶ 0:59:59Adm. Paparo: Senator, I can tell you in a classified setting how many millions of pounds it takes to be in air to support our air refueling requirements. And I'd also add our combat logistics force and our at sea fuel requirements as well. I strongly applaud the air force's standing back off the tanker fleet and refreshing it. And I'd be in favor of anything that accelerates our ability to put fuel in the air.
▶ 1:00:27Sen. Fischer: Thank you. General brunson, back to our nuclear deterrence and the importance it has for our allies and partners. Can you can you comment how important that relationship is between U.S. and r.o. K.?
▶ 1:00:54Gen. Brunson: It goes tremendously far in helping to assure our allies of our will and our intent. So to that end, we developed a staff section, the j10, which works along and serves as an interface between U.S. stratcom. We also participated full until the nuclear consultant group. These things all allow our allies to focus on other things in the region. Are they protected? Are they covered?
▶ 1:01:22Gen. Brunson: So our alliance through extended deterrence is incredibly important for us being allies.
▶ 1:01:29Sen. Fibber: Thank you very much. Thank you, Mr. chairman.
▶ 1:01:32Chair Wicker: Thank you, senator fischer. I have senator hirono and then senator tuberville. Senator hirono?
▶ 1:01:44Sen. Hirono: Thank you very much for your service and leadership. Admiral paparo, you've been candid with your concerns about the U.S. military's magazine depth over the last several years, and, of course, with the illegal war in iran. And you noted today that you believe that the magazine is being judiciously employed. I'm not so sure about that, but you did note that we need to have a better mix.
▶ 1:02:13Sen. Hirono: I think that's where you were going, better mix of the exquisite high-cost, low-volume systems with affordability high volume munitions. You did note that we are working with nontraditional vendors to help us produce these other types of munitions. I'm curious to know, how are we doing that?
▶ 1:02:37Sen. Hirono: Are we providing encouragement to these nontraditional vendors to help us with providing the systems and the other munitions that you are seeking to develop?
▶ 1:02:52Adm. Paparo: Good morning and aloha, senator.
▶ 1:02:55Gen. Brunson: Certainly, we work with the defense innovation unit. We have funded multiple tests, including the employment of a low-cost hyper sonic weapon off of U.S. aircraft this summer, and so yes, we've advocated for d.I.u. Experimentation, and we've advocated very strongly with the department for contracting these capabilities.
▶ 1:03:22Gen. Brunson: Those contracted capabilities are reflected in this year's budget submission with orders in the hundreds, if not thousands of these systems.
▶ 1:03:32Sen. Hirono: That's an area that I would like to provide more support, because clearly we need to really move toward the kind of innovations that you have very much advocated for the times that I have worked with you, so thank you very much. For your continued leadership in this regard.
▶ 1:03:50Sen. Hirono: I did want to mention that although you are not directly involved with the military services continuing negotiations with the state of hawaii regarding extending the use of critical military training lands in hawaii, without those training lands, for example, it would be very hard to justify the army's presence in hawaii, and therefore, the impact on national security.
▶ 1:04:14Sen. Hirono: So I just wanted to bring the importance of the significance of these negotiations, particularly for the army to continue to negotiate in good faith with the state to come to a resolution acceptable to all parties and not short circuit the discussions by seeking to condemn the land without fully exhausting the avenues.
▶ 1:04:42Sen. Hirono: I just wanted to get your brief thoughts on the importance of these negotiations and how these negotiations should proceed.
▶ 1:04:52Gen. Brunson: Senator, engagement is critical. It's indispensable to the nation's defense. It's indefensible to de-- deterrence here in the indo-pacific.
▶ 1:05:06Gen. Brunson: I'm in favor of every effort that leads to a favorable outcome to maintain 25th I.d., and in fact, united states armies' continued usage of the training area, as well as all of the other key land lease issues that we're dealing with in the state of hawaii, which also includes air force, navy, space force, and then marine usage.
▶ 1:05:32Gen. Brunson: So across the joint force I'm strong until favor of building towards consensus and sensible solutions.
▶ 1:05:40Sen. Hirono: I think the key words are processes, because I think it would be not in the interest of of the military's presence in hawaii, if these negotiations are somehow short circuited, there is resort to condemnation. That would not go over very well, I would say, with the people of hawaii. So any input that you have toward those kinds of negotiations would be much appreciated.
▶ 1:06:07Sen. Hirono: Admiral, we are seeing increasing cooperation between iran, russia, north korea, and china. As U.S. forces remain heavily engaged in the middle east, how are you working with the regional allies, particularly japan, the republic of korea, and australia to increase cooperation and coordination among our partners in the indo-pacific
▶ 1:06:33Gen. Brunson: All those relationships are on a strong trajectory, among the relationships among them. It is a daily matter of duty to work closely with all the allies.
▶ 1:06:44Sen. Hirono: As we talk about the importance of our allies, we should not forget that our combat island nations and the fact that we should be working very closely to support our impact nations and our island nations assist china is very much extending itself in the indo-pacific area with regard to establishing stronger relationships with other island nations, let us not forget our island nation partners.
▶ 1:07:13Gen. Brunson: Will do, senator. And republic, fed rated states of micronesia, marshall islands continue to be areas of chinese encroachment across the gray zone, across elements of he lead capture, and maintaining a close focus on those relationships is incredibly important.
▶ 1:07:38Chair Wicker: And our relationships with those people are very strong.
▶ 1:07:53Sen. Tuberville: What flexibility do they gain if we were able to field submarines versus 12?
▶ 1:08:04Adm. Paparo: Senator, good morning. It would enhance our ability to provide extended deterrence.
▶ 1:08:11Gen. Brunson: It would enhance our overall readiness, not just for strategic weapons, but for tactical weapons, and I'm strongly in favor of enhancing that, and you'll find a strong vote yes on increasing our authority.
▶ 1:08:30Sen. Tuberville: Our competition with china includes monetary strength as well. Last year, the chinese communist party's main monetary think tank published research on bitcoin as a strategic asset. This came after president trump moved to establish a strategic bitcoin reserve. Admiral, how does leadership impact leverage resilience for indo-pacific against china, and do you think that a strategic bitcoin reserve helps america compete against china?
▶ 1:09:04Gen. Brunson: Senator, our research into bitcoin is as a computer science tool. It's the combination of cryptography, block chain and proof of work. And bitcoin shows incredible potential as a computer science tool that through the proof of work protocols is actually imposes more cost than just the algorithm securing of networks and our ability to operate. Bitcoin is a reality.
▶ 1:09:33Gen. Brunson: It is a valuable computer science tool, as a power projection. It's got really important commuter science
▶ 1:09:52Sen. Tuberville: What recommendations do you have for the U.S. congress?
▶ 1:09:58Gen. Brunson: I have to go deeper on that for you for the record. I can deep other that case, but bin coin is a reality. It is a peer-to-peer zero trust transfer of value. Anything that supports the all instruments of national power for the united states of america is to the good.
▶ 1:10:19Sen. Tuberville: Thank you. I have to listen to that answer to kind of decipher it. You're way over our head. Go ahead. General, what we're seeing as far as changes in strategic environment with respect to north korea, what are we seeing?
▶ 1:10:37Adm. Paparo: Senator, thank you for the question. One of the things that we're seeing, if we were just take this from a political military and informational or intelligence view, what we're seeing with them is politically k.j.u. Is firmly in his seat.
▶ 1:10:53Adm. Paparo: I think militarily what we see is a more experienced force that's been into the conflict in ukraine come back, trained other forces, and taken best advantage of the off sets learned in that fight and begun to employ them in their training. Informationally, and through intelligence, what we find is a continued isolated population in that country and less communication with the government in korea.
▶ 1:11:22Adm. Paparo: There are no overtures toward peace from the north to the south. And we see increasing hardness, if you will, in terms of that relation. So every overture is rebuffed. There are no more outreaches from the north to the south.
▶ 1:11:38Sen. Tuberville: What kind of reaction are you seeing from the conflict in the middle east, from north korea?
▶ 1:11:46Gen. Brunson: As mentioned in close, we are seeing reflections, and I would just say they are watching that with a wary eye by virtue of the use of munitions and the things that we've done in that conflict currently and how quickly that occurred.
▶ 1:12:02Sen. Tuberville: Thank you. Thank you, Mr. chairman.
▶ 1:12:04Chair Wicker: Thank you, senator tuberville. And admiral paparo, I believe you told senator tuberville that you hope to supplement your answer on the record with regard to bitcoin.
▶ 1:12:19Adm. Paparo: Yell, I will respond on the record. I'll put it in plain english, too.
▶ 1:12:23Chair Wicker: Thank you. Senator tuberville will not be the only one who goes back over that. Senator blumenthal?
▶ 1:12:31Sen. Blumenthal: Thank you, Mr. chairman. Thank you both for your service and really critical role. Admiral, I apologize that I was unable to attend the closed session because of conflicts, so my question is really based on public reporting, and I know that there was some coverage of various topics in the closed session, but I am tremendously concerned about the impact of
▶ 1:13:01Sen. Blumenthal: The transfer, the drawdown of munitions and capabilities to the middle east. I'm under the impression that the impact that be serious. Would you agree?
▶ 1:13:16Adm. Paparo: Senator, I think we maintain deep magazines, and there's no walking away from the quantitative use of weapons, and our way forward is to supercharge our defense industrial base and equally important is to innovate with nontraditional crimes.
▶ 1:13:37Sen. Blumenthal: Would you agree with me the american people need and deserve to know more about what the impact will be so they can appreciate the seriousness of the costs of the iran war and the urgent need to replenish and restock munitions and other resources for your command and others?
▶ 1:14:03Gen. Brunson: I acknowledge it and the secretary is addressing it.
▶ 1:14:10Sen. Blumenthal: I hope there will be nor truth telling to the american people about the need to build the industrial base and to provide more of the resources that you need because otherwise the american people are just going to assume we don't have any need to do it. The cooperation between russia and north korea is deepening militarily.
▶ 1:14:36Sen. Blumenthal: My understanding is north korea has transferred millions of artillery shell rockets, ballistic missiles, and other resources to russia for use in ukraine and north korea is providing more than 10,000 troops right now fighting, actually fighting on the front line in ukraine. Is that correct?
▶ 1:15:02Gen. Brunson: That is correct, senator.
▶ 1:15:06Sen. Blumenthal: In turn, russia is providing with korea with food, energy supplies, may be most important the technology. Correct?
▶ 1:15:17Gen. Brunson: Yes, senator.
▶ 1:15:20Sen. Blumenthal: How significant is that cooperation? I understand it is growing.
▶ 1:15:27Gen. Brunson: It is significant due to the fact they are able to alleviate their research development training and evaluation or testing and evaluation. They are getting ready made equipment, receiving training, putting those things in operation.
▶ 1:15:45Sen. Blumenthal: Admiral, I was very interested in your three meta-trends in your testimony and particularly as to the growing capability of asymmetric warfare, cheap, masked, unmanned warfare we have seen in ukraine, I assume your comments are based on the iran war as well.
▶ 1:16:16Sen. Blumenthal: How does that bear on the chinese calculus? Given that taiwan is smaller, fewer numbers of troops, but highly capable in cyber and also in providing those unmanned asymmetric forces against may be a very significant chinese invasion but may be something that the chinese ought to be more wary about?
▶ 1:16:47Adm. Paparo: I think the chinese are deeply worried about it. They are trying to reckon with that as we do, which I think why all of us together how reckon with these three meta-trend and the changing character of warfare. I think their view is they want to build a drone force that would be a vanguard of an assault and force.
▶ 1:17:09Adm. Paparo: In the end, all things being equal, the deployment and employment of cheap expendable munitions will favor the defensive so long as we pursue it fully with mass, with sustainability, and with ai tools that enable us to command it and out match our potential adversaries.
▶ 1:17:32Sen. Blumenthal: Another was come as long as we continue supporting taiwan with those resources.
▶ 1:17:37Adm. Paparo: Yes, sir. And taiwan's continued pursuit in and of itself of its own defense, which is a key factor.
▶ 1:17:46Chair Wicker: Senator ernst
▶ 1:17:49Britt Sen. Ernst: Thank you so much, jogmen, for being here today. We appreciate your service as well as your teams in protecting our great nation. When iran closed the strait of hormuz, directly threatened the energy security of a number of our allies in the indo-pacific. Japan, south korea, the philippines. And these are key allies for us.
▶ 1:18:19Britt Sen. Ernst: They assist us with the deterrence in that region. President trump national security strategy rightly treats american energy dominance as a strategic asset. It is not just an economic one. Admiral paparo, does indopacom currently treat allied energy independence as a strategic vulnerability when doing is planning?
▶ 1:18:44Adm. Paparo: Good morning britt yes, we do. We track energy reserves for each partner including also potentially each potential competitor as well. We do view the vulnerabilities of not just where the energy is coming from, but also through the straits they travel as being key critical geography. As the ability to impose costs?
▶ 1:19:16Adm. Paparo: As well as the ability to defend key strategic waterways. I affirm the ability of the united states increasingly to be a net energy provider also in the indo-pacific to escape the vulnerability of those key chokepoints.
▶ 1:19:33Sen. Ernst: That is a key point. I think greater U.S. oil and lng supplies to our allies can reduce the leverage that any of our adversaries would have on those countries. In your assessment, do you think we are moving fast enough to make american energy meaningful color of -- pillar of allied resilience in the indo-pacific?
▶ 1:20:00Adm. Paparo: I never come ever affirm satisfaction with where we are.
▶ 1:20:09Sen. Ernst: Thank you for the truthful answer. I would could occur for that. General brunson, for you, russia's war in ukraine has become kind of a two way military exchange between putin and kim jong-un. We see -- whether it is a liquid fuel ballistic missile program that goes back to north korea, russian military and technical assistance, personnel coming from north korea to assist
▶ 1:20:39Sen. Ernst: Russia in the war in ukraine -- we could go on and on. So what we have seen means that iran is taking a look at what is going on. There is a real world test going on in iran right now. We've seen the same in ukraine. With all of these exchanges going on, what specific capabilities are you seeing that the dprk has actually gained from these experiences?
▶ 1:21:11Sen. Ernst: What do they stand to gain today or immediately that would assist them as they are assessing the united states and our partner nations in the indo-pacific?
▶ 1:21:24Gen. Brunson: As mentioned previously, we are seeing it in their training. We are the seeing the things they're doing, those were immediate gains. I think at the operational level, what they are finding is they are learning to become far more accurate with the employment of their fires. When you see it hits some 60 miles south of the dmz.
▶ 1:21:50Gen. Brunson: And also in terms of technology they have garnered from this association, it has allowed them to operate in specter that they haven't before. Their operating ems, working on electronic warfare. It is also enabling them to do things in the cyber realm.
▶ 1:22:10Gen. Brunson: We look at the trip to currency theft and the other things they are learning from this almost savant that exists now from russia into dprk into china and beyond and into iran that we have to be concerned about the transitive nature of technology and dtp's that are going to move across.
▶ 1:22:30Sen. Ernst: Would uss all of those different areas -- would uss all those different areas you spoke to, would you say these are in criminal gains or significant meaningful shifts for dprk?
▶ 1:22:45Gen. Brunson: For dprk, these are significant shifts in their ability to do these things they never had to work on themselves, largely given the quid pro quo nature we talked about initially wom wohen this started.
▶ 1:23:05Sen. Ernst: I think this is something we need to set up and pay attention to. Thank you very much.
▶ 1:23:08Chair Wicker: We have shaheen and then she he. Senator sheehy.
▶ 1:23:18Sen. Sheehy: Thank you for being here for your service and thank you both for all of the time and support you provided to our bipartisan caddell that went to the indo-pacific a couple of weeks ago. Admiral paparo, we appreciated the briefing in honolulu. And your insights into taiwan, japan, south korea, which we visited.
▶ 1:23:41Sen. Sheehy: While we were in taiwan, we had a very good meeting with president li and members of their legislative body. We talked with them about the importance of passing the $40 billion special defense budget they are still debating. Can you speak to why this is important and your perspective on how important it would be for taiwan to pass that special defense budget?
▶ 1:24:11Adm. Paparo: Good morning. First of all, nothing has changed in the american policy on taiwan and the three communiques. Foreign military sales with taiwan are not out of the norm over the almost 50 years of taiwan relations act.
▶ 1:24:34Adm. Paparo: So we could not want taiwan's more than they want itself and it is not a chicken and the egg because you're not going to get chicken or eggs if you starve the chicken. It is very important for them to find their own defense.
▶ 1:24:49Sen. Shaheen: I agree and we made the case there were two reasons to pass it. One was to send a message to china but also send a message to the american congress, which is very supportive of taiwan and would like to see this action taken. General brunson, you kindly meant me mentioned our visit to camp humphreys. It was my first time so it was nice to hear the perspective of the men and women serving there.
▶ 1:25:21Sen. Shaheen: In south korea, we also had a very good meeting with the li administration. President lee was very focused on reaching the transfer of outcome by the end of his administration. He talked about the importance of capabilities versus capacity which was a 12 -- a point we made to him as well. Can you outline what the key capabilities are that the U.S.
▶ 1:25:49Sen. Shaheen: Provides and we need to continue to provide for the foreseeable future?
▶ 1:25:55Gen. Brunson: First, thank you for your visit. It means a lot. When you're 13 hours on, like I know my wife is not watching this right now, but it means a lot when you come out and visit us. Please come back again. When we look at the things we provide right now, there is no true analog to critical put more limited in hangul.
▶ 1:26:23Gen. Brunson: What we had to do was take a look, as I'm sure you're involved in conversations about this work time and that it is a conditions based transfer come as we continue to ferret out the conditions and capabilities that have to be resident within that for us to do this, maintaining conditions-based for this transfer come I think we will learn over time what things we're going to need to do alongside our partners.
▶ 1:26:53Gen. Brunson: I can't give you an answer on that right now, ma'am. We have to continue to work to ensure the political expediency does not outpace the conditions. We have to stay focused on the conditions because the united states is safer that way and the republic of korea safer that way so we will continue to focus. I will take that for the record to come back to you on what we find out as we continue to work through our roadmap to get to the transfer.
▶ 1:27:25Sen. Shaheen: Admiral paparo, you answered this sort of, but can you talk about how ultimately you think or I guess we can't say until we know the outcome, but what is happening in the middle east and iran affects how the prc views the united states and how it might affect their thinking about their other activities in the region?
▶ 1:27:55Adm. Paparo: Senator, there is no substitute for prevailing on the battlefield so I could not be more stronger in favor of the operation that is ongoing in centcom right now.
▶ 1:28:09Adm. Paparo: The success of that is very important for deterrence in the indo-pacific and as we bring those combat lessons learned into our own operations and we are directly involved, including in the theater itself with potential missile strikes on diego garcia, maritime interdiction operations for conducting as well as functioning of iranian combat missiles, I think what I want
▶ 1:28:43Adm. Paparo: The prc to see is united states employees capability and will in response to aggression. I don't want them to doubt that in any way. And that supports deterrence. Deterrence is our highest duty.
▶ 1:29:01Chair Wicker: Senator sheehy.
▶ 1:29:06Sen. Sheehy: Good morning, gentlemen. Last time we faced an adversary of the western pacific where both of you currently have dominion over, we were fighting a nation it was roughly the size of my home state of montana with a population of a fraction the side of -- the size of america and we had a robust industrial base that was capable of mass manufacturing this scale relatively quickly.
▶ 1:29:33Sen. Sheehy: Today our adversary will be the size of our entire nation with a population roughly four to five times the size of her own with an economy comparable. We will face are considerably more challenging military and economic picture should the unthinkable happened. Admiral, do you feel our current fleet makeup both in size and ship position is what you would need if you are fighting the fight in the western pacific?
▶ 1:29:57Sen. Sheehy: If not, what does it look like from a quantity as well as composition standpoint to be the fleet you need to win?
▶ 1:30:07Adm. Paparo: Good morning. The year I came into service, america delivered an aircraft carrier, five attack submarines, ballistic missile submarine, two cruisers, five ddg 51 class destroyers, and in total, 40 years ago, america delivered 31 warships in a single year.
▶ 1:30:34Adm. Paparo: That was on a $4.5 trillion economy with a total population that is two thirds of the current size of the united states of america. So rhe industrialization of america is a strategic imperative, especially per my opening statement. I think new habits of mind, new habits of action, commercial and defense innovation, commercial integration our strategic priorities for the 21st century.
▶ 1:31:06Adm. Paparo: And despite the change in drone warfare, of cheap strike, is moving energy, mass, and people over long distances by sea was sufficiently and by air must quickly will continue to be a timeless element of combat power.
▶ 1:31:26Sen. Sheehy: What class of ship to you not have that you feel you will need?
▶ 1:31:31Adm. Paparo: I don't have enough amphibious ships. We don't have enough surface destroyers. We certainly don't have enough attack submarines in our trajectory is on the wrong side. I would favor a greater amount of combat logistic force ships.
▶ 1:31:48Adm. Paparo: I favor a great number of medium usv's with the ability to provide fires, sensors, decoys, the ability to do long-range distributed asw. So I would see that. And, you know, we are currently on a trajectory to employ or rather to acquire thousands of smaller unmanned surface vessels.
▶ 1:32:18Adm. Paparo: I think our fleet designs within the last battle force assessment, our last is a really good leaping off point for what the future force design is going to be. I would favor greater mass and scale across every class of ships, and then include medium and large unmanned surface vessels for that purpose.
▶ 1:32:42Sen. Sheehy: Quantity has a quality all its own and replace ability and speed of that are key. I would like -- I think it is fantastic we have a white house and a bipartisan senate and house and of course secretary of the navy and we are all talking about shipbuilding, which is the first time we have ever heard that in 40 plus years. I think that is a good thing. But I think we are still lacking the specifics.
▶ 1:33:10Sen. Sheehy: We need to get very specific on how many frigates, destroyers, cruisers, what those capabilities have to be, how we are going to put a lot of lead from ships undergrounds. We have ships that have lots of electronic gadgets but we have to put a lot of lead through the air and landed on an island before 18-year-old kids hit that beach. We can't do that anymore and that is a problem. I think we need to have a specific discussion about that.
▶ 1:33:40Sen. Sheehy: Finally, I ask you to talk about our base infrastructure across the pacific. At least have island bases that span the entire pacific command. Those were key on single aircraft carriers. We closed a lot of them down, let them decay. I would like to hear your view our path in the near future to revitalize those pieces of infrastructure that could be critical.
▶ 1:34:03Adm. Paparo: We are in the process of greatly building our key critical for structure throughout the pacific with key projects, U.S. sovereign homeland, with projects in federated states of micronesia and the republic of marshall islands.
▶ 1:34:24Adm. Paparo: Our efforts in palau we had and then through our unnc,m enhancing our capabilities for our rotational forces with australia as well as upgrading our bases currently. For a lot of our support, we ask for the committees continued with the visas without the extension at 2035, our projects will go 10 years over and we have 1.5x on money on achieving
▶ 1:34:56Adm. Paparo: That kind of posture. In thinking about the 21st century, we think of it in terms of bases or rather I should say places and not necessarily bases. But having distributed stores, having distributed piers, ports, energy capability throughout the indo-pacific that diversifies our footprint. It does not concentrate us in one place and allows us the principles of expanded maneuver.
▶ 1:35:25Sen. Sheehy: Thank you for your time. We are over concentrated into many spots and that is a vulnerability. From an acquisition standpoint, we have to get more creative. Traditional process is too slow, too inefficient. We can't expect this to be government-run and get there on time. Pan am built our bases as a commercial company before world war ii. We need to get creative freedom thank you for your time.
▶ 1:35:55Adm. Paparo: I associate myself with your comments, senator.
▶ 1:35:59Chair Wicker: That is good to know. Let me point out, senator sheehy and admiral and general, over a decade ago, on a bipartisan basis, this committee and the congress and the president of the united states enacted a law that established 355 ships as the minimum fleet we should have .
▶ 1:36:26Chair Wicker: Clearly, there is going to have to be more specifically -- spec .
▶ 1:36:44Chair Wicker: I, too, join senator sheehy and being heartened that even in a climate when there is much disagreement on very significant issues between democrats and republicans and house members and senate members, there is consensus on that. And we need to take this opportunity to move on that.
▶ 1:37:16Chair Wicker: With that, I will recognize senator kaine.
▶ 1:37:17Sen. Kaine: Thank you. My first question is news of the day. Admiral paparo, we talked about the joint exercise between the U.S. and philippines right now. During that exercise, japan is a participant for the first time rather than just an observer.
▶ 1:37:38Sen. Kaine: The prime minister and the last couple of hours announced japan is now going to allow robust export of lethal defense technologies, the pacifist post-world war ii japanese constitution meant they did not allow export of defense items we had recently, they have allowed specific exports of search-and-rescue, minesweeping, surveillance.
▶ 1:38:02Sen. Kaine: I know they're going to allow the export of an lethal defense to 17 nations with which they have defense agreements, including the united states from u.k., and other allies. I know what china thinks about this. They hated. How does the U.S. to view this and how do allies in the region view this?
▶ 1:38:21Adm. Paparo: Well, senator, I could not be anymore supportive of the U.S.-japan alliance. That is the understatement of the year is that it is the centerpiece of our system of network and alliances the indo-pacific.
▶ 1:38:42Adm. Paparo: My appreciation for japan's leadership in this is meeting the day in a way prime minister able -- transformational leadership and japan is in the indo-pacific including the participation in exercises.
▶ 1:39:17Adm. Paparo: It is important to continue. -- it is important to continue coproduction with the japanese under conditions of operational and informational security. And we are strongly supportive. It is one of the absolute bright spots in the strategic environment.
▶ 1:39:37Sen. Kaine: One of the issues in the past is the history of challenge between japan and korea. We have great relations with both and I think they are strong relations but sometimes moves in the defense based in one nation or the other can create on potential friction. -- some potential friction. I read the statement and I thought it was measured and generally positive. Is that your sins as well, general brunson and admiral paparo?
▶ 1:40:06Adm. Paparo: The trilateral cooperation between the united states, republic of korea and japan, continues to be on an upward trajectory. It has been the sign of great leadership both in japan and korea and in my view, that continued progress has continued into the lee administration. I will pass over to general brunson.
▶ 1:40:37Gen. Brunson: Yes, sir, senator, I would wholeheartedly agree with that. There are future opportunities. We have rempac and they will be ship to ship, side-by-side. We had one recently were both japan and korea where they are in the exercises.
▶ 1:40:59Gen. Brunson: We have got to continue through the indopacom exercise program, continue to make sure we bring our teammates together and then existentialism as a quality all its own as well. When you have two great nations, partners of our own, who are increasingly under threat and coercion from china.
▶ 1:41:19Sen. Kaine: I think a lot of credit goes to japan and korea for this. But I also think while we're on the subject a bipartisan advances, this is something where the U.S. has played a helpful role in dialogue with both of these allies to help them grow closer. Give them credit, give their civilian and military leadership credit. Presidents a both parties in recent years have helped them grow closer read you guys get credit for that, too.
▶ 1:41:49Sen. Kaine: One last question, I was in australia recently, really trying to dig in 37 events in seven days in four cities as australia is meeting its commitments under color one and tell her to. I heard a lot, answered some tough questions and I was impressed. Are you satisfied with the pace of upgrades to sterling that could support the increased rotation and presence of U.S.?
▶ 1:42:17Adm. Paparo: From a sure power standpoint and capability they have, we could move submarines to sterling today. That is been the progress in sterling. I laid eyes on it multiple times. The commitment is they are. At the progress as they are. The place where we have to make much progress is in the defense industrial base to deliver the capability but our partners in australia, u.k.
▶ 1:42:43Adm. Paparo: Through pillar one and two, it has been full throttle. It is now as much of the industry as anything else to deliver.
▶ 1:42:55Chair Wicker: Our two senators from florida keep tripping over themselves trying to defer to each other. I think the latest is senator scott is recognized.
▶ 1:43:10Sen. Scott: Thank you. Thank you for being here and the men and women who serve with you. Thank you for defending their freedom of this country. I think we all travel and talk to allies and here's what I keep hearing britt they want to buyer weapons but the process has a bunch of issues that can't get the weapons in a timely manner. A big part of it is government and our defense.
▶ 1:43:34Sen. Scott: Can each of you explain why it is so beneficial for our allies to buy american-made military equipment?
▶ 1:43:41Adm. Paparo: It is the interoperability of the capability and the absolute product superiority of the weapons themselves. Those two factors. The ability to fight and win today with each other, change or change weapons so again the flexibility of the magazines, and the fact america military commitment is the best in the world.
▶ 1:44:06Gen. Brunson: Yes, sir, I would wholeheartedly agree with that from the human technological and procedural interoperability that comes from buying the great american equipment. It just makes our work a lot simpler and ensures that we have got the right capabilities in place.
▶ 1:44:26Sen. Scott: The current lead times for sales hinder our ability to build capacity to determine -- deter calmness china?
▶ 1:44:33Adm. Paparo: Yes.
▶ 1:44:34Gen. Brunson: Yes.
▶ 1:44:37Sen. Scott: How is this ship affecting you and your crisis response capacity in the indo-pacific?
▶ 1:44:49Adm. Paparo: We've accounted for easing other units. As you will note, approximately 1600 troops. Marine rotational force darwin has responded. Others have responded. So between third and one, we have been able to provide that combat capability.
▶ 1:45:16Adm. Paparo: We have a seaborne power projection capability that is designed as a flexible worldwide responsive force. The marine corps has accounted for that with other ready forces out of one and three. So I don't view -- certainly from a seaborne crisis response force standpoint, that force is also available as being inherently mobile in times of crisis to move back into the
▶ 1:45:49Adm. Paparo: Indo-pacific. It is my job to identify the indications and warnings in place that demand signal if we need that. Our amphibian readiness is a driving factor for seaborne readiness crisis response capability with the marine corps. We have to continue to pay close attention to our amphibious force and increase the ships and the readiness of those ships.
▶ 1:46:16Sen. Scott: Used at logistics remain a critical challenge in the indo-pacific long distances and widely distributed operations. Is it correct the pacific air forces are working with innovative companies to demonstrate dual use autonomous air cargo operations in theater this year? Adm. Paparo: yes, sir.
▶ 1:46:36Sen. Scott: In coordination come there doing experimentation in order to be able to put a 20 foot shipping container anywhere in the world employing unmanned capability. And we can't go fast enough with that.
▶ 1:46:50Sen. Scott: Do you see a role for your craft autonomy for addressing logistics challenges going forward?
▶ 1:46:54Adm. Paparo: I see it being indispensable for future.
▶ 1:46:59Sen. Scott: And how will we get this done?
▶ 1:47:00Adm. Paparo: Innovating faster, investing faster. I think taking risk in our investments, risks in such a way that program failure means you can rededicate those moneys to another vendor that is able to do it.
▶ 1:47:18Adm. Paparo: Cultivating a competitive environment by allocating funds to innovative and experimental companies by getting the technical community to rapidly grant the authority to operate to those companies and to train our strategic risk by taking the little program risk as we have done in the past.
▶ 1:47:38Sen. Scott: Thank you to both of you.
▶ 1:47:40Chair Wicker: Rapidfire questions and rapidfire answers. Senator kelly.
▶ 1:47:53Sen. Kelly: Thank you. Admiral paparo, congress right now is actively considering my ships for america act alongside the president's maritime action plan and this is to rebuild U.S. commercial shipbuilding. Shipbuilding capacity. And to strengthen our maritime industrial base, grow the workforce, all those things I think we all recognize we need.
▶ 1:48:24Sen. Kelly: It is because of decades of decline in commercial shipbuilding. Which has created in my view a national security risk and also weakened our ability to build and sustain naval vessels. With senator scott, talked about amphibs.
▶ 1:48:45Sen. Kelly: Given that linkage, do you agree that revitalizing our commercial maritime industrial base is essential to strengthening navy shipbuilding and reducing the delays in delivering ships like amphinbs or another virginia class submarine from etc.?
▶ 1:49:04Sen. Kelly: And how urgent is it that we make these investments now to ensure that we can meet the demands in the indo-pacific?
▶ 1:49:17Adm. Paparo: Good morning. I strongly affirm that statement. U.S. overall shipbuilding is .1% of global capacity. China enjoys over 50% of global shipbuilding capacity. Civil military fusion system is how they have employed so much more naval shipbuilding capacity.
▶ 1:49:40Adm. Paparo: Having the workforce that can move with alacrity from one type ship to another, just the basic trades, regaining that is absolutely essential for our defense in the 21st century.
▶ 1:49:52Sen. Kelly: We need to train the welders, pipefitters, electricians, but also have the companies that supply pipes and valves and steel. Have a bigger overall maritime industry. That is going to help us build naval vessels.
▶ 1:50:09Sen. Kelly: Another topic I want to touch on, we talked a little earlier today about ukraine and how it relates to the western pacific in a fight with china, which I do not believe is inevitable. I think we should do what we can to avoid a conflict with a near peer adversary, especially one that has nuclear weapons with an arsenal that is growing.
▶ 1:50:40Sen. Kelly: The ukrainians and the russians have learned that autonomous systems in a land war is very -- the key to success. I was in a hospital in ukraine about a year ago and met with 10 injured soldiers, none of them were injured because of mpv's and one stepped on a land mine which may have been put there by a drone.
▶ 1:51:06Sen. Kelly: Drone warfare is where the casualty -- where the casualties are created in this war. When you think about the western pacific with islands fighting from one island to the next, maybe eventually on taiwan, how do you think these systems will evolve to be useful? And what should we be doing here at home?
▶ 1:51:32Sen. Kelly: We're certainly gaining, you know, gaining an education here but what should we be doing now to make sure we have the autonomous systems that will work in a fight in the western pacific?
▶ 1:51:43Adm. Paparo: Senator cowan it is not just land warfare. In addition to that, it is assault warfare, which is one power wants to take another power's land and subjugated citizens. Those principles of assault matter from ground assault, air assault, airborne assault, amphibious assault.
▶ 1:52:06Adm. Paparo: So the lessons are all salient which is that you raise the cost of assault which doctrinally is always three to one died the proliferation of mass cheap kill makes it more like a 20 to one or a 100 to one ratio. And all things being equal, if all sides were employed to their utmost, it makes assault much more costly and favors the defender. So we can't move fast enough in this.
▶ 1:52:36Adm. Paparo: What characterizes it is not that it is unmanned, it is that it is cheap. It is a cheap kill. I think moving quickly from innovating quickly and cover granting authorities quickly, taking risk by programming and by feeding those industries as it is in the 1.5 in this year's
▶ 1:53:06Adm. Paparo: Budget submission, I think that is the way ahead.
▶ 1:53:10Chair Wicker: Thank you very much.
▶ 1:53:15Sen. Sullivan: Good to see you both. Thank you for your great service to our country and your staffs, too. Admiral, I wanted -- general and admiral, I wanted to follow on senator ernst's question on energy. My state, we are working on huge lng project. We have been working on it for a number of years.
▶ 1:53:43Sen. Sullivan: We were the first place anywhere in the world to export lng. We started exporting to japan in the late 1960's from alaska. No chokepoints. Six-day, though shipment. -- six-day cargo shipment. All the gulf lng we get to asia also takes a lot of time. You mentioned -- senator ernst asked, are we moving fast enough?
▶ 1:54:12Sen. Sullivan: I liked your answer, we can never move fast enough. Would it help our allies and of course our military that you're responsible for in alaska to have 50 to 100 year supply of cleanburning alaska natural gas? We have one of the largest reserves of natural gas anywhere on the planet.
▶ 1:54:32Sen. Sullivan: But would it help to get that to our allies very soon -- japan, korea, taiwan, thailand, the philippines? They are all really interested in this project. We are trying to get the federal government, federal agencies to focus on their president has made it a top strategic priority, highlighted it in a state of the union last year. How would that help you?
▶ 1:55:01Adm. Paparo: Good morning. First of all, we track the number of lng reserves among our indo-pacific partners as a single and double digit weeks. Lng is a key critical element of powering societal resilience, the economic resilience of tightening our partnerships across the security energy trade technology stack.
▶ 1:55:31Adm. Paparo: And to do so unfettered by chokepoints that would be adversaries could close where we could do the picking and choosing of our partners to link those things, those would be greatly enhancing for security in the indo-pacific.
▶ 1:55:49Sen. Sullivan: So this would virtually be a pipeline to japan and korea. Could not touch it.
▶ 1:55:53Adm. Paparo: It would power economies. It would power economies of the 21st century such as vietnam, philippines, indonesia, malaysia. It would be a game changer.
▶ 1:56:07Sen. Sullivan: I had won my colleagues talking about this being the private sector american energy counter to the china belt and road initiative. Do you agree with that assessment?
▶ 1:56:15Adm. Paparo: Yes, sir. Very strong supporter and of maintaining the sea lines of communication in the north pacific, including dominance.
▶ 1:56:28Sen. Sullivan: I'm hoping the white house -- welcome they are great this, too. Department of energy, everybody has seen this as important. Let me turn to progress on basing. We have talked for about do you think we are over concentrated on guam? I think the milcon we're looking at is about 50 billion over the next four to five years. We were able to get -- your help was great.
▶ 1:56:57Sen. Sullivan: The reopening of the naval base on the lucian allen chain, that is 1100 miles west of hawaii. How important is it to this idea being over concentrated in a place like guam and we need to distribute our forces more?
▶ 1:57:18Adm. Paparo: I don't think we are over concentrated on guam. I think it is important we don't gold plate the situation. I don't think it is the single point of power projection. I think -- I see the behavior of our would be adversaries which you put together direct threats unalaska is a key economic center of gravity for the united states of america is a key point that they would like to attack.
▶ 1:57:48Adm. Paparo: I see it as a different firing vector and so over concentrated, no. I think we are under concentrated in other areas.
▶ 1:57:55Sen. Sullivan: How does reopening that help with distributing our forces and having a capacity which we are now starting to build up because of the working families tax cuts act last year?
▶ 1:58:06Adm. Paparo: Guam is a closer firing position in hawaii, san diego, must everybody --
▶ 1:58:16Sen. Sullivan: You mean aidac.
▶ 1:58:19Adm. Paparo: If you look on a non-mercator map it looks like it is far away but geographically, it is on par with guam and other firing positions. It is another vector a projection of american power and also another vector in our would be adversaries we would like to strike. Sorry for the misspeak.
▶ 1:58:41Chair Wicker: Thank you for the clarification. Senator peters.
▶ 1:58:49Sen. Peters: Thank you for being here and thank you for your service to our country. Admiral paparo, you have often spoken about the importance of allies and partners highlighted the critical role they play in supporting indopacom. These allies and partners have become even more important with indopacom, resources being shifted to the middle east for the ongoing war in iran.
▶ 1:59:14Sen. Peters: How are you ensuring operations in iran do not impact our regional deterrence is, including ongoing collaboration with our regional allies and partners in the area and how are you ensuring we maintain these critical relationships during a time of increased global insecurity?
▶ 1:59:30Adm. Paparo: Good morning. I think our entrepreneurial approach to maintaining rations, activities, our exercises with indo-pacific partners has been one key. We have an example where there are 18,500 plus troops from 19000 and the biggest battle ever in the way shifting capabilities around to maintain those operations and their exercises.
▶ 1:59:59Adm. Paparo: Japan is participating for the first time ever in it and that is an example of our deepening alliances and partnerships. Our indo-pacific allies, they are stepping up from a standpoint in the dynamic demonstration of combat power.
▶ 2:00:17Adm. Paparo: We continue to maintain a deep reserve of ready combat forces including forces on japan, forces in san diego, forces all across the western united states.
▶ 2:00:31Adm. Paparo: I am not saying there has not been indopacom forces that have gone and you know it is nothing at all what we have been able to account for those forces that are in centcom. There is no substitute for the combat experience they are conducting. It is in advantage or our would be adversaries do not have.
▶ 2:01:02Sen. Peters: Following the war with iran, the dod has withdrawn fed missile defense systems from the korean peninsula and has repositioned them to the middle east. This move was opposed by the korean government in part they believed it weakened deterrence against north korea. My question for you, sir, how to assess the impact of moving the systems out of the korean peninsula and the resulting impact on your deterrence strategy against north korea?
▶ 2:01:31Gen. Brunson: Senator, thank you for the question. We have not moved any sad systems. It is to remains on the peninsula currently. We are sending munitions forward and those are sitting right now waiting.
▶ 2:01:50Sen. Peters: There were previous moves where radars were taken forward? This was in advance of midnight hammer. Some of this have not come back yet but this thaad systems remain. We move them around. I think that what got to the information space.
▶ 2:02:19Sen. Peters: Dynamically moving those around so I could than sequence them into the airbase to prepare them . That caused a big kerfuffle.
▶ 2:02:32Sen. Peters: So you clarified it for everybody today.
▶ 2:02:34Gen. Brunson: Yes, sir.
▶ 2:02:37Sen. Peters: The kc 46 refueling tanker not only strengthens our ability to project power despite china's growing threats but also enhances our interoperability with our partner nations as well. Given the sheer size of the indo-pacific, how critical are kc 46 tankers for enabling these operations and with japan now acquiring kc 46, how does that enhance our operations in the region?
▶ 2:03:05Adm. Paparo: In a classified level, would be awed by how many millions of pounds of fuel we must have airborne during our most pacing operations in order to succeed in conflict. I applaud the air force's accelerated acquisition of kc 46 reopening the line and we can't go fast enough we had Sen.
▶ 2:03:27Peters: Thank you.
▶ 2:03:27Chair Wicker: Senator moody.
▶ 2:03:31Sen. Moody: Thank you. Thank you for being here today and for having so much energy to get through all of this. I guess it is not unique in the military. This is my first open hearing as a member of this committee and certainly an honor and I am in awe of anyone that signs up to make this professional career.
▶ 2:03:58Sen. Moody: The oldest boy in our family has done that and also respect you and thank you. I appreciated also the opportunity to meet with you personally prior to today and I hope you know I am here to support your men and women in forces in whatever way you need. It is my hope everyone on this committee comes here with that intention.
▶ 2:04:21Sen. Moody: As I look to the future of america's military, I know much of what we are trying to do now is align our military power with our industrial and innovation base here at home. I think you said that is something we should prioritize and that moving forward to keep pace with innovation and technology we have to do that. My question for you is a crime and I fully support that.
▶ 2:04:52Sen. Moody: I see our president and this administration has placed an emphasis on that and I stood ready to support that. Is that what you think we must do to keep pace with china? What ranks equal to that in prioritization to do that?
▶ 2:05:10Adm. Paparo: Senator, I think the extent to which in the early 1990's is the defense space went into the defense space and left some of the commercial spaces. I think that was -- I don't want to call it a strategic error, but it was a strategic accident in the way -- it used to be commercial and military integration was a key strength. Each fed off of each other.
▶ 2:05:39Adm. Paparo: So refinding that connection between civilian innovation and military innovation I think is really key and essential in this changing character warfare while we meet the strategic moment with the changing technical environment, technical revolution we are living in at this time.
▶ 2:06:05Adm. Paparo: And having a military that is the most tech savvy military in the world is going to be a key competitive advantage.
▶ 2:06:15Sen. Moody: In addition to trying to bring innovation, industrialization back to the homeland, this administration and certainly many of us on this committee also are eager to see and are valuing more of our formal and informal allies throughout the world, stepping up being more players and ensuring peace and stability throughout the world.
▶ 2:06:44Sen. Moody: I think watching what is happening in the theater under your command, I think watching what some of our allies and partners are doing in that region where they are responding more actively, asserting sovereignty, pushing back against coercive actions certainly as it relates to china encroaching upon some territorial waters, are you noticing that happening more? Do you think there are things we can do in congress or even within the military to encourage more of that?
▶ 2:07:14Adm. Paparo: Senator, I do see increasing cooperation. One of these examples is japan's active member participation. The fact japan is actively participating in a philippine exercise that affirms its ability to defend itself reciprocal access agreements that japan has made with australia.
▶ 2:07:39Adm. Paparo: The growing relationships in every exercise program, including with indonesia, malaysia -- throughout the theater we see the partnerships nation to nation are growing. Certainly, our role at indo-pacific command is one to cultivate that.
▶ 2:08:05Adm. Paparo: But we are frequently pleasantly surprised at the nation and nation connections that they are making in and of themselves. And rightly so. Because each is a sovereign and each lives in the neighborhood and those are relationships that go back centuries.
▶ 2:08:20Sen. Moody: Thank you.
▶ 2:08:20Chair Wicker: Thank you for your answer, admiral, and senator moody, thank you for directing our attention to that aspect of what we need to consider. Let me also just observe, welcome to the committee.
▶ 2:08:37Chair Wicker: Let me observe looking down the dais at senator slotkin and looking around the dais at you, senator moody, it seems to me that only a month or two ago I was down there at the end of that dais and here I am in this capacity. So thank you very, very much.
▶ 2:09:07Chair Wicker: With that, I recognize senator slotkin.
▶ 2:09:10Sen. Slotkin: Thank you. Welcome, senator moody. Admiral paparo, you are one of our country's greatest experts on asia and on china. I am thinking about the summit that is about to happen in a month. A huge summit between trump and xi jinping. I am personally struggling with what our policy and plan is going into that summit.
▶ 2:09:38Sen. Slotkin: Just reviewed the bidding, we put tariffs on a whole bunch of things. At one point, we had more tariffs on canada than we did on china. On ag, chinese to be our biggest purchaser of soybeans and now we are proving billions of dollars to bail out U.S. farmers. Unfair trade practices which we know china is legend for. There has been zero moves made to help hold them accountable.
▶ 2:10:04Sen. Slotkin: On technology, we have given china our most sophisticated ai chips. Ships that our own american companies are desperate to get their hands on -- chips that her own american companies are desperate to get their hands on. When we are in the middle of a really important ai race with china. We have cut plans to impose sanctions on china for cyberattack. We have cut research and development in our universities while china is surging ahead.
▶ 2:10:34Sen. Slotkin: And now are headed to the summit. I will admit I am concerned about what we are going to offer and get from this summit. In particular, I'm from michigan, so we are watching the president came to detroit in january and said out loud in detroit that it might be time to allow chinese vehicles to be sold in the united states. A bit of an earthquake in my state.
▶ 2:11:04Sen. Slotkin: I asked general austin years ago, because I'm really concerned for the national security implications of having chinese vehicles with all the data and all the surveillance and all the cameras and all the 3d mapping, all that stuff sent back to beijing.
▶ 2:11:21Sen. Slotkin: I would like to ask you from a security perspective, would you want an adversarial nation to have high fidelity, 3d maps of every military base and installation in the united states?
▶ 2:11:35Adm. Paparo: No, we should do everything in our power to prevent that.
▶ 2:11:38Sen. Slotkin: I'm thinking about were planning from being at the pentagon, the data we like to have fun and adversary will lead do were planning. Would you want an adversary to have maps, 3d high fidelity maps of every power plant, porch, highway, and bridge in america?
▶ 2:11:55Adm. Paparo: No, senator.
▶ 2:12:00Sen. Slotkin: Would you want an adversary be able to hack cars in united states and remotely piloted them from beijing?
▶ 2:12:07Adm. Paparo: No, senator britt
▶ 2:12:11Sen. Slotkin: Would you want an adversary to be able to conduct cyber espionage through any phone from any bluetooth device into a vehicle in the united states?
▶ 2:12:18Adm. Paparo: No.
▶ 2:12:22Sen. Slotkin: I know this is not your area of expertise, but I will say from a national secured perspective, let alone in economic security perspective, we are watching the potential deals that this president is going to make in that summit with deep concern.
▶ 2:12:38Sen. Slotkin: It is not missed in was noted some of the biggest investors in the chinese firms are big american investors, we are concerned in the hustle and bustle to make deals, we are going to give away the farm. We are going to give away security issues here in the united states. I just wanted to get one of our nation's experts on record on the national security implications -- I think it is like a driving surveillance package.
▶ 2:13:08Sen. Slotkin: I think they are chomping at the bit to get access to the united states of america and met every corner and have geolocation on every theater in this country. I wanted to raise that to the attention. We have a bill coming up in ndaa 2 chinese vehicles from any sensitive military location as a bare minimum.
▶ 2:13:31Sen. Slotkin: I would say my first was to ban chinese cars from being sold here and I pray that is not where we are going from a national secured perspective in less than a month. Thank you for your time and I yield back.
▶ 2:13:42Chair Wicker: Senator cotton.
▶ 2:13:44Sen. Cotton: Thank you for your service. It is not just the iran war, we've been supporting ukraine for four years. Some critics of that effort have decided the munitions challenges we have as well.
▶ 2:14:11Sen. Cotton: Isn't it fair to say neither ukraine nor iran caused the munitions challenges we have but rather exposed just how brittle our defense industrial base is, why it is so important to rebuild it rapidly?
▶ 2:14:23Adm. Paparo: I acknowledge and agree with you. Most of our problems are our own.
▶ 2:14:29Sen. Cotton: In a hypothetical world where you never had operation epic fury or may not hammer or for that matter you did not have vladimir putin second invasion of russia, it might not have been exposed but our defense industrial base, especially when it comes to munitions production, would still have had those underlying challenges. It just might not have been focused on quite so much.
▶ 2:14:52Adm. Paparo: I agree.
▶ 2:14:55Sen. Cotton: On taiwan, I know you talked with senator shaheen about their defense budget. There is also the question about national resolve. That is a hard thing to judge and it is more a question of political judgment, statecraft than it is military matters. What is your sense as a career military man of taiwan and their willingness to go to the mattresses to defend our nation?
▶ 2:15:25Adm. Paparo: I have a great deal of faith in taiwan's military age populations, willingness capability and will to defend themselves. Magnitude above others.
▶ 2:15:40Sen. Cotton: I was going ask you to name the others but I guess that would be -- I won't ask you to do that.
▶ 2:15:44Adm. Paparo: What I will say is ukraine demonstrated relatively low numbers in polling pre-conflict and they have responded as admirably as a society can. Taiwan's polling is orders of magnitude above that leading me to positively assert their willingness to defend -- john
▶ 2:16:05Sen. Cotton: Common sense, don't have to have access to that data, I think common sense would say if you're sitting in taiwan and your mom or dad, you're worried about your son or daughters future, grandma or grandpa you look at what communist china has done and say hong kong, once they gain control of those territories, would not want them to gain control of your territory?
▶ 2:16:26Adm. Paparo: Yes, sir.
▶ 2:16:29Sen. Burr: Cotton --
▶ 2:16:37Sen. Cotton: Bob gates testified that we have a perfect -- almost perfect record of predicting our next war since vietnam. Got it wrong every single time whether it was grenada or panama or iraq the first or second time, the balkans, ukraine, what have you.
▶ 2:16:58Sen. Cotton: That is why our military plans, what we have so many guys and arctic warfare school or jungle warfare school. If you are taiwan's military from the time you raise your hand to enlist its private, there is one and only one military contingency that you should be thinking about planning for. Does their military had that single-minded assessment?
▶ 2:17:22Adm. Paparo: I do see that. I think they're working really hard and I am seeing success in their building the kind of operational concepts to be successful in thwarting innovation.
▶ 2:17:42Sen. Cotton: You talked about the defense budget. We recently took a pretty chummy trip to china, does that raise concern with you? I don't expect you to comment on the internal politics of taiwan, but about the direction of the defense spending in the future?
▶ 2:18:00Adm. Paparo: I think the proof will be in the pudding. The passage of the special defense budget will tell us how committed they are.
▶ 2:18:07Sen. Cotton: Thank you.
▶ 2:18:09Chair Wicker: Thank you very much. Senator rosen.
▶ 2:18:14Sen. Rosen: . Thank you for holding this hearing. Good to see you both. Thank you both for your service to the contrary. I know we are focused a lot on china and I just want to focus a little bit for a second on their cyber threats.
▶ 2:18:38Sen. Rosen: Admiral paparo, as you stated in the recent meeting, the cyber threat landscape and the indo-pacific is increasingly complex. China is emerging as a significant and evolving actor in the cyber domain. As we look to enhance our posture and partnership and the critical region, it is essential we understand the scope of chinese activities and how we can effectively counter their influence, particularly when it comes to cyber threats, disinformation, rampant in the targeting of infrastructure.
▶ 2:19:09Sen. Rosen: Admiral, how do you assess the chinese cyber threats, the capabilities, housing -- the mill cybersecurity corporation with regional allies and partners to defend against I guess in all of the above attack from prc aggression?
▶ 2:19:25Adm. Paparo: Good morning. Cyber is the first battle and in fact we are engaged in cyber. The prc are engaged in cyber operations worldwide. That includes not just just from a mill to mill standpoint are essential operations were exposing the p.r.c.'s and iteration of our allied partners is really key and assisting them
▶ 2:19:56Adm. Paparo: In closing those vulnerabilities. It is very important for the allied force moving forward they were operating under the conditions of operational security and cyber is the biggest vulnerability.
▶ 2:20:10Sen. Rosen: Could you expand?
▶ 2:20:14Adm. Paparo: United front is absolutely unfettered. The united states of america, the government is constrained to the truth and the press is free and the p.r.c., the press is constrained and the government is free to light and a spread lies about united states, our allies and partners, and their political enemies worldwide.
▶ 2:20:37Adm. Paparo: They are active and that is all over the theater and in fact all over the world.
▶ 2:20:46Sen. Rosen: I'm going to ask my next question to both of you, little bit about the indopacom strategy because the 2026 national defense strategy removes the designation of the indo-pacific as a priority theater and no longer refers to china as the pacing challenge. Placing increased emphasis on the western hemisphere instead.
▶ 2:21:06Sen. Rosen: Compounded with the ongoing military operations and other theaters, erases concerns of course the resources and attention required to maintain stability in the indopacom area responsibility, being diverted elsewhere, degrading our U.S. analysis readiness in the pacific. I am going to ask this to both of you for the short time that I have left, what you assess the chinese and north koreans are learning about the U.S.
▶ 2:21:35Sen. Rosen: Military and our military strategy from operation epic fury and what challenges does that face us we think about the ndaa and what we have to maybe readjust for?
▶ 2:21:49Adm. Paparo: The national defense strategy knows deterring china is a second line of effort right behind offending the homeland. I will say the department is focused on a denial defense starting at the first island chain in the department of defense is focused on deterring chinese aggression. I will say that.
▶ 2:22:18Adm. Paparo: In our alliances and partnerships, they continue on a growth trajectory really across the indo-pacific including north america and our canadian partners. Our operations elsewhere are accounted for with some entrepreneurial creativity and foreign ally. I don't see any real costs being opposed to deter china.
▶ 2:22:50Adm. Paparo: I am sorry to take exception with the statement. I really do see --
▶ 2:23:01Sen. Rosen: I guess it was more what you think as we are in war right now, our adversaries are learning about us, our capabilities, and our strategies. And how will that change. I only have a few seconds I wanted to give a moment.
▶ 2:23:17Gen. Brunson: As we look at our friends, partners, and allies in the region, one of the things I think is absolutely noteworthy is where we sit. We were just in korea. We sit right there with our partners, right with our allies to be more exact.
▶ 2:23:37Gen. Brunson: That gives us an opportunity to absolutely demonstrate to them every day by our continued involvement with them, settling disputes face-to-face by having our officers inside their headquarters, planning alongside them for the defense of that land. I think you could look at the document -- you also don't have the secret annex to that. You could just take that at its face but I think our presence means so much more.
▶ 2:24:07Gen. Brunson: If you look at the triangle of mutual defense treaties in and around the pacific and japan, korea, and the philippines where they are. I think that speaks abundantly. It abundantly clear what it means to us to be allied alongside folks in the region. We are a buttress, a huge hedge.
▶ 2:24:37Adm. Paparo: If I could give an answer. Yes, yes, go ahead. They are impressed by the operational acumen being demonstrated by the joint force. Number two, they see the power of ai and intelligent eyes were fair as they call it is a 20% treat advantage. They are right to see that.
▶ 2:25:04Adm. Paparo: I think they see the power of unmanned technology as an opposer of costs. We see the same thing. I'm really sorry for giving a nonanswer.
▶ 2:25:14Sen. Rosen: That's fine. We are thinking about what we have to plan for. We just want to be focused on some lessons. Thank you Mr. chairman.
▶ 2:25:23Chair Wicker: Senator rosen, think you'll agree the answers for both of these witnesses have been very open and candid and we appreciate that.
▶ 2:25:37Sen. Rosen: I do agree. Simple vans let's pick up on what you said. Can you be more specific and talk about how the pla is using an official intelligence to enhance its military capabilities?
▶ 2:25:53Adm. Paparo: They caa's power from a targeting standpoint, mass data analytics to quickly discern where the target is given the covariance among all the factors that come into various sensors. I think I see the power of ai for strategic decision-making to know the game you're playing, to be able to suss out what an adversary's intentions are.
▶ 2:26:20Adm. Paparo: I think they are right to see that and who masters that technology and more importantly the adoption of that capability is the one that is going to have the offset advantage of the 21st century.
▶ 2:26:30Sen. Banks: Do they have an edge on this? Can you measure them versus us when it comes to ai?
▶ 2:26:37Adm. Paparo: I think the united states has superiority in tools as well as llm tools. I think you has product superiority in compute which powers those. I think the p.r.c.
▶ 2:26:54Adm. Paparo: Has some key advantages in robotics and we have got to move faster and those and we have got to move faster and those robotics of god to be employed for -- got to be employed for at-scale activities.
▶ 2:27:11Adm. Paparo: Our lead is a tenuous lead of six months to 12 months of the most, and we need to maintain and we need to maintain in advance that lead with an emphasis on data, on compute, on application, including ai application, and most importantly, human adoption.
▶ 2:27:27Sen. Banks: That is really consuming especially coming from you because no one in the world understands this stuff on how important it is more than you do. I take would agree that ai is a dual-use technology that enables military power.
▶ 2:27:40Adm. Paparo: Yes, sir, I do.
▶ 2:27:42Sen. Banks: How big of a strategic advantage is it for the U.S. to have more and better high-end chips than china does to develop ai?
▶ 2:27:53Adm. Paparo: This is at the heart of compute. High-end chips enables fast compute of the resources of energy, greater volumes. High-end chips is moore's law personified. Having that advantage is an absolute critical pillar --
▶ 2:28:10Sen. Banks: Can you explain a little bit more why that is the case?
▶ 2:28:14Adm. Paparo: You know, the complexity, the short distance -- the short distance of compute in the exchange of electrons are chips faster commit able to complete more data faster at lower energy levels. It increases the efficiency of our computers and enables us to compute faster and at higher volumes and at lower energy requirements.
▶ 2:28:43Adm. Paparo: It is a key, critical advantage, that along with data and software and former applications on top of it, we have got to maintain our lead on that, including our ai tools, both our large language models and our agentic models at frontier ai.
▶ 2:29:03Sen. Banks: Take a step further -- how -- what would happen if our advantage was eroded by the chinese getting access to advanced chips that they otherwise don't have access to, that they cannothow will that it that they cannothow will that is militarily in this ai competition that we have with china?
▶ 2:29:25Adm. Paparo: Increasing with ai, the ability to compute better and faster is the ability to think better and faster. And every other form of warfare, whether it is drone warfare, missile warfare, all of warfare -- all of those forms of warfare are commoditized.
▶ 2:29:51Adm. Paparo: The overarching factor above all of it is compute and decision superiority, the combination of our ability to compute and the ability of -- our ability to adopt.
▶ 2:30:01Sen. Banks: I want to be really clear about this. If the pla has access to more advanced ai, it would likely improve its were fighting capabilities at the expense of american service members.
▶ 2:30:15Adm. Paparo: Yes, sir. I associate myself directly without comment. Not likely. Undoubtedly.
▶ 2:30:23Sen. Banks: Thank you for being candid and your leadership and all -- general, thank you for your service as well. I yield back.
▶ 2:30:32Chair Wicker: And thank you, senator banks, for that line of questioning. I want to thank both of our witnesses, and also I want to thank the team of the servicemen and civilian leadership sitting behind you for their service to our country. This has been a very good hearing.
▶ 2:30:52Chair Wicker: Feel free and feel encouraged to supplement your answers on the record if you so choose. And I think we will ask for questions for the record to be due within two business days of the conclusion of his hearing, which occurs right now. We are adjourned. [captioning performed by the national captioning institute, which is responsible for its caption content and accuracy. Visit ncicap.org]