▶ 0:27:11Chair Moran: Welcome to all and especially to our witnesses. I want to recognize this day of the week, this we go national police week. We convene today to discuss the department of veterans affairs police force and how we can best support those who protect our nation's veterans. I will take a moment to thank the v.a. Police officers for the work they do every day to keep our veterans, to keep our staff, and keep our visitors to v.a.
▶ 0:27:44Chair Moran: Facilities across the country safe. As -- as I kansan, I want to thank wichita kansas police chief who joins us today. Thank you. For his hard work and dedication to protecting his fellow candles veterans. Close to 90% of the v.a.'s police workforce is made up of veterans themselves. By combining their personal experience with advanced crisis intervention training, v.a.
▶ 0:28:11Chair Moran: Police are uniquely equipped to manage the difficult situations with veterans and crisis. In a 2024, I raised my concerns with then secretary donna actors -- after discovering v.a. Police were not in compliance with intervention training requirements. In response to committee inquiries, v.a. Self-reported a mere 28 percent compliance with the law from january 23 to march 24. Today, v.a. Police compliance with this important training requirement is at 96.8%.
▶ 0:28:43Chair Moran: I'm encouraged by secretary collins april 20 25 directory to centralize the v.a. Police chain of command and I look forward to full realignment that is expected in november. This command structure to should allow for more oversight, career projection and standardization among v.a. Police along the way. The number one concern I hear is the potential pay downgrades. While classification changes are currently caused, v.a.
▶ 0:29:12Chair Moran: Police officers are facing a pay downgrade. In addition and an august 2025 v.a. Inspector general report found v.a. Police staffing shortages at 58% of facilities. In these downgrades, -- if these downgrades go through without a new compensation package, staffing issues undoubtedly will get worse.
▶ 0:29:43Chair Moran: It's my understanding that the v.a. Leadership is working to update descriptions that will bring v.a. Police to a competitive pay rate with other federal law enforcement agencies. I look forward to learning more about that effort today and in the weeks ahead. In september of 2023, I requested the government accountability office to conduct a review of campus security at v.a. Facilities around the country. Gao will be releasing this report in conjunction with our hearings. The findings warrant attention by v8 leadership. I look forward to hearing from our witnesses about how this committee can best support v.a. Police and securing v.a.
▶ 0:30:14Chair Moran: Facilities while providing care to those that serve. Almost with that, I gild to the ranking member. We have three votes to start at 3:45. The first one is now underway. You will see some of us come and go during the hearing. Plan is to have the hearing continue in our absence. With that, I gilded to the ranking member, senator blumenthal.
▶ 0:30:36Sen. Blumenthal: Thanks very much. We come here today on a really important issue to so many veterans who depend on proper safety and policing at v.a. Facilities. V.a. Police departments are charged with responsibility of that safety, and ensuring the security of all v.a. Facilities, including veterans, families, v.a. Staff and visitors.
▶ 0:31:07Sen. Blumenthal: Since 2019, v.a. Police officers have been among the top nonclinical staffing shortages based on facility reports to the v.a. Inspector general. That is since 2019. But nothing has been more damaging to the recruitment, retention and morale of v.a.
▶ 0:31:30Sen. Blumenthal: Police than this administration's policies of changing the staffing of v.a. Facilities, the threat of position downgrades by the office of personnel management, and based on a v.a.'s monthly workforce staff board, v.a. Police officers experience a net loss of nearly 300 officers in fiscal year 2025.
▶ 0:32:03Sen. Blumenthal: The first net loss on record since the v.a. Began publishing this. V.a. Facilities struggled to recruit police officers, often failing to solicit quality applicants due to the fear of salary cuts. Or they stopped recruitment altogether. At the same time, a significant restructuring of the office of security and preparedness, os pete, was underway.
▶ 0:32:32Sen. Blumenthal: This restructuring was intended to get more authority over staffing resource allocations decisions to osp, helping the medical center directors avoid the difficult decision of choosing between clinical staff and police.
▶ 0:32:48Sen. Blumenthal: Unfortunately, when facility leadership was tasked with cutting vacancies, they were told to target those vacancies that have been unfilled the longest, resulting in removal of 461 vacant police officer positions. Moving forward, even though they the top -- the department paused the proposed downgrades, the significant damage has been done.
▶ 0:33:15Sen. Blumenthal: Amidst ongoing consultation with opm, many police officers continue to fear unsustainable salary cuts. On the horizon, many are leaving the department, and may have already left. To provide peace of mind to these officers and prevent future downgrades and pay cuts, I will be introducing that v.a. Police recruitment and retention act of 2026.
▶ 0:33:43Sen. Blumenthal: This legislation has been already introduced in the house by representative tim kennedy. It would prohibit any position downgrades of v.a. Police officers. I would like to make this bill bipartisan. And I look forward to discussing the bill with our witnesses today. I will close with a couple quotes from v.a. Police officers who reached out to my office. They expressed concern over the current status of the v.a.
▶ 0:34:14Sen. Blumenthal: Police work. "we have more than 15 floors to cover, and several times, we only have two v.a. Cops to respond to emergencies. Midnight tour only has one v.a. Cop. This facility is definitely not safe for staff, veterans, and guests. It's not safe for one cop to respond to our mental health ward alone.
▶ 0:34:41Sen. Blumenthal: It's on acceptable." -- it's unacceptable." I often work along my backup is the local city police and county -- county sheriffs who run bare-bones staffing with two officers only. I hope our witnesses will provide assurances today to congress, but more importantly, the v.a., police officers, and staff that v.a.
▶ 0:35:08Sen. Blumenthal: Leadership and this administration support the role of v.a. Police departments without reservation. I hope you will support the bill that I'm introducing. Thank you, Mr. chairman.
▶ 0:35:20Chair Moran: Thank you very much. I now want to recognize our witnesses we are joined today by reginald neal, the v.a.'s assistant secretary of operations, security and preparedness. Accompanying him is Mr. mark ingle bob -- Mr. mark engelbaum. Mr. patrick hernandez, director of security and law enforcement office of sue preparedness and Mr.
▶ 0:35:46Chair Moran: Chad allan, chiefk of police for the wichita kansas, the robert daigle v.a. Medical center. We are also joined by triana mcneil, the director of the U.S. government accountability office's homeland security and justice team. Finally we are joined by matthew leffler, a senior police officer at the wilkes-barre v.a. Medical center and vice president of afg local 1699. Thank you all for your presence today. Mr. neal, you are now recognized.
▶ 0:36:16Mr. Neal: Thank you, chairman. The ranking member blumenthal and members of the committee on veterans affairs, I appreciate this opportunity to provide an update on our v.a. Police. As mentioned, I'm accompanied by Mr. engelbaum, patrick hernandez, and chief allan from which to talk, kansas. And people ask me about the mission of the v.a.
▶ 0:36:39Mr. Neal: Police, I'm proud to tell them our police provide security law enforcement services to the largest integrated health care system in this country. In this administration returned to office in 2025, we inherited a dysfunctional force. One that was plagued with many of the very policies that have been -- problems that have been highlighted for years. Here are some of the most serious issues that we have had to address.
▶ 0:37:04Mr. Neal: For years, the va police were managed by individual va medical centers. For our v.a. Police officers, they reported to mento -- medical center personnel instead of law enforcement professionals. Our v.a. Police endured inconsistent policing standards which led to a lack of accountability and discipline. Are professional officers were used to per board -- provided nonpolice functions.
▶ 0:37:32Mr. Neal: This basic organizational problem made it difficult to recruit, retain and promote seasoned officers. Our officers were not part of a larger law enforcement structure. It structure that understood policing, and allowed for career advancement to senior law enforcement leadership positions. Since we began our police consolidation effort, we began working to properly classify v.a. Police position descriptions. This is a complex issue. It has been my top priority since I was appointed by the president december of last year.
▶ 0:38:03Mr. Neal: The bottom line is police officers were not properly classified in accordance with federal standards. This led to opm directing these inconsistencies be identified and corrected. The result of can -- correcting these classifications will have lowered grades and pay over 95% of our v.a. Police officers. This was not acceptable. Although the downgrades were not implemented, the threat of lower grades and was paid created deep professional and personal concern among the v.a. Police.
▶ 0:38:34Mr. Neal: President trump charge sector -- charged doug collins with putting veterans first. The secretary is doing just that. What have we done? We recognized v.a. Police needed a unified chain of command. Started at the top. The starter with the reestablishment of the office of operations security and preparedness with its own assistant secretary.
▶ 0:38:55Mr. Neal: In addition with the realignment of the police under osp, and the office of security law enforcement, we finally have actual law enforcement leaders in charge of our v.a. Police. Officers leading officers. What does all of this mean? We can enforce standards and disciplines across all facilities with departmental or of training and professional develop. It means v.a.
▶ 0:39:17Mr. Neal: Police have a direct line to an assistant secretary who represents them to the secretary of veterans affairs. We have created more stability and opportunities for officers to have a long-term career within the v.a. Most importantly, we are fixing the core issues with the v.a. Police due to classifications. This is a huge undertaking. I have been involved with our hra office and conducting reviews of current police position qualification standards. We are working with opm to classify our v.a.
▶ 0:39:46Mr. Neal: Police based on a complex duties that they now perform, not on antiquated job descriptions that have not been reviewed or updated in almost 40 years. I'm proud to say we are on track to provide compensation that are police officers have earned. This has put the v.a. Police on better footing to address the emerging challenges, including those highlighted in its latest gao report. I became aware of this report and its findings, and I was briefed on it yesterday.
▶ 0:40:19Mr. Neal: I have read it and I take the findings and the recommendations very seriously. I believe our actions sets police consolidation in september and have begun to address some of the challenges identified. Chairman moran and ranking member blumenthal, and senators on this committee, thank you for your support. U.S. I understand that the v.a.'s commitment to help veterans, and their families don't mean much of our facilities are not safe.
▶ 0:40:46Mr. Neal: Since coming to the v.a., I have visited 13 facilities and met with 13 police units in the short time I've been here. I have seen firsthand the challenges that our v.a. Police phase, and the improvements needed to keep our facilities safe. I'm here to testify today that prior to the findings and release of this and -- this report, that we have made tremendous strides that put us on the right path.
▶ 0:41:16Mr. Neal: Thank you for the opportunity to discuss the importance of our v.a. Police force and the integral role in the department that provides care and benefits for millions of veterans. I look forward to your questions.
▶ 0:41:20Chair Moran: Thank you for your testimony. Let me turn to Mr. leffler.
▶ 0:41:26Mr. Leffler: Chairman moran, ranking member blumenthal, and members of the committee, my name is matthew leffler. I currently serve as vice president of afge. I am a proud marine corps veteran and I served 20 years in federal law enforcement including four as a marine corps , and the last six years as a senior v.a. Police officer.
▶ 0:41:58Mr. Leffler: On behalf of afg and its national v.a. Counsel representing 325,000 dedicated employees including 2500 v.a. Police officers, 90% of whom are veterans themselves, it is a published to testify today especially during law enforcement appreciation week. Afg has several recommendations raised by our members that can help the v.a. With recruitment and retention. The v.a. Must fully staff v.a. Police force. In fy 25, oig reported 58% of facilities designated police as having a severe occupational staffing shortage.
▶ 0:42:27Mr. Leffler: Making it the most frequently reported nonclinical shortage. Because of this, expensive new security equipment sits unused due to short staffing. Nursing rving forced -- in some facilities, a lack of officers limits response to one emergency at a time. The staffing problem is dire for sea box where the nearest officer is often miles away. Or offices which are often protected by other police.
▶ 0:42:55Mr. Leffler: To address this, afg urges the v.a. To fully staff the v.a. Police force and allow us to keep everyone safe. Second, afg strongly opposes the proposed downgrades of v.a. Police officers to address this, we support hr 8010. The v.a. Police recruitment and retention act introduced by representative kennedy. This legislation would prohibit opm and the v.a. From downgrading the position to the release.
▶ 0:43:23Mr. Leffler: Afg supports the amended version of the bill being considered tomorrow. Opm's actions to downgrade v.a. Police are pay cuts. And put veterans at risk. V.a. Police specialized -- have specialized training and crisis intervention to prevent veterans from harming themselves and others.
▶ 0:43:51Mr. Leffler: 90% of the officers are veterans themselves, they have shared experiences which qualify them to interact with fellow veterans. This is critical when veterans are in crisis and need help, not harm. This was tragically put in stark relief in march after v.a. Social worker nikolas cruz was murdered at a v.a. Clinic in jasper, georgia, demonstrating the bravery and dedication required of our v.a. Officers. The plant downgrades are worse when considering v.a. Police have other lucrative law enforcement opportunities outside of the v.a.
▶ 0:44:20Mr. Leffler: For example, in topeka, kansas, ags five makes over $41,000 annually. While the starting pay for a police officer is over 62 $5,000. Similarly, ags five in connecticut makes 48,000 dollars annually while an entry-level police officer in the west police department makes a minimum of $74,000 a year. The v.a. Should do everything in its power to recruit and retain its police force.
▶ 0:44:52Mr. Leffler: While afd is pleased some of the plant downgrades have been paused, afg calls for the passover -- passage of hr 8010. Congress should extend status in what are commonly known as succeeded benefits to v.a. Police. The definition of leo and the federal code does not include v.a. Police officers. They do not receive retirement benefits on par with other federal law enforcement officers. Afg supports hr 3226, which would grant a 60 benefits.
▶ 0:45:23Mr. Leffler: This widely bipartisan bill has 65 cosponsors including chairman bosse and ranking member thune,. The senate version of the bill has not been introduced in this congress, but was introduced last congress by senators cory booker and then senator jd vance. Granting full legal status to v.a. Police will improve recruitment and retention, and keep these specialized officers with the veterans they are trained to serve. It is important to note the v.a. Previously endorsed this bill at a 2023 hearing.
▶ 0:45:53Mr. Leffler: Afg urges members to support legislation to grant a 60 benefits to v.a. Police. I would like to flee touch on v.a. Police realignment under osp, police officers are funded from the same budgets as medical center personnel. This is force -- this forces them to hire a medical professional or v.a. Officer. Afg recommends congress provide a dedicated funding source for v.a. Police to ensure officers are not disadvantaged.
▶ 0:46:22Mr. Leffler: Afg and the nda see look forward to working with the committee to improve the recruitment and retention of v.a. Police. Thank you and I look forward to your questions.
▶ 0:46:29Chair Moran: Thank you. Now we would like to hear from Ms. mcneil from the government accountability office.
▶ 0:46:40Ms. Mcneil: Chairman moran and ranking number blumenthal and members of the committee, I'm pleased to be here today to discuss gao's examination of the physical security of v.a.'s medical facilities. The v.a. Employs 188,000 health-care workers and serves 9 million enrolled veterans. Who keeps them safe? Over 4300 officers, physicals -- physical security specialists in investigators and 800 contract security guards. May police officers play a unique and important role.
▶ 0:47:11Ms. Mcneil: They are often the first and last person that a veteran who may be in crisis sees when they seek care at a v.a. Medical facility. They have to balance their safety and security role with ensuring there is a welcoming and open environment for our veterans. I hope the work we did that was released today will help move the needle and get things moving in the direction that benefits veterans, health care workers that serve them, and the police officers that protect them.
▶ 0:47:38Ms. Mcneil: We examined three issues in our review. We looked at criminal activity at v.a. Medical facilities. V.a. Police reported over 74 thousand crimes at v.a. Medical facilities in fiscal year 24 and 25. Most were nonviolent and crimes at facilities in urban areas were two times higher than in rural areas. Second, we examined the status of v.a. Implementation of federal rick -- federal security requirements. It's a mixed story.
▶ 0:48:09Ms. Mcneil: V.a. Implemented our recommendations from 2013 and 2014, calling on them to make its risk assessment methodology online with federal security standards. But for example, they still need to address our 2018 recommendations to revise their risk management policies, to better reflect federal standards, and develop an oversight strategy to assess its risk management programs.
▶ 0:48:34Ms. Mcneil: Finally, we examined v.a.'s processes for obtaining and incorporating security and threat information into its capital planning. 's's capital investment planning process is consistent with best practices and federal standards. The one issue we found was that two citizens failed to meet the v.a. Goal to close 95% of security gaps identified through the capital planning process. The reason given was that they were never told they were lagging behind.
▶ 0:49:05Ms. Mcneil: We have a recommendation to address this in our released report. Now, central to our work was covert testing. We needed to test the current physical security situation at v.a. Medical facilities so we could shed light on the impact of our efforts to date. We chose 30 sites across the country in urban and rural areas, large medical centers, and smaller clinics with a range of security levels.
▶ 0:49:35Ms. Mcneil: Unfortunately, we identified a serious issues. While our testing was not generalizable, the results indicate a higher potential for systemwide failures. During these covert tests, we were able to carry prohibited weapons into 30 of 30 v.a. Medical facilities, we were able to drink from a large, clearly labeled alcohol bottles, while inside the waiting rooms of 25 of 26 facilities.
▶ 0:50:05Ms. Mcneil: And another facilities, we were able to walk into prohibited areas. While we did not identify any criminal activity on the part of any v.a. Staff, we were shocked that we could freely walk into these facilities with all kinds of things without being checked. That we could openly drink water out of a vodka bottle. This is especially concerning given that in 2024 and 2025, over 70 4000 crimes were committed at v.a.
▶ 0:50:34Ms. Mcneil: Medical center -- v.a. Medical facilities. While the majority were nonviolent, over 5000 were weapons related crimes and over 6000 were drug-related crimes. This is a serious issue and needs to be addressed immediately in a strategic way, with leadership support from the top. We have a lot of questions for v.a. What's the progress to fill the vacancies for v.a. Police officers? What more is v.a. Going to do to support its police officers?
▶ 0:51:05Ms. Mcneil: What is the plan to address the over 3000 recommendations in their risk assessments that v.a. Never responded to? If v.a. Does all of these things, is it going to be enough to address the wide failures we identified? Is there a culture issue? Is it a training issue? Is it a resources issue? Is their need for more controls to have proper oversight? These are the questions we will be asking v.a. Moving forward. Thank you for inviting gao to this important hearing.
▶ 0:51:36Ms. Mcneil: I look forward to answering any questions.
▶ 0:51:37Chair Moran: Thank you for your report and testimony. We start with Mr. hernandez. And reference a v.a. Social worker nikolas cruz who was killed at a shooting at a v.a. Clinic in jasper, georgia. Tell me what oversight your office, the v.a.
▶ 0:52:02Chair Moran: Does in conducting security for community-based outpatient clinics into make certain that those facilities and the veterans they serve and staff are afforded the same level of security at a larger v.a. Facility.
▶ 0:52:19Mr. Hernandez: Thank you for that question. The sea bok in jasper was a federal security level two facility which means it is low to moderate pair this was ascertained through what we call a modified infrastructure staffing tool -- security tool which is a dhs developed tool we use at the federal standard. We employed countermeasures there, we had a uniformed security guard.
▶ 0:52:48Mr. Hernandez: We had key entry to any of the clinical areas that only staff had access to. And we had practices that were practiced well, we had panic buttons that not only informed the v.a. Police, and local police, as well as the staff inside the building. From a physical security standpoint, the countermeasures in place were on par with the facility.
▶ 0:53:23Mr. Hernandez: The practices they practiced were sound. The individual came in, he was under duress, he obviously was having an episode. He was brought in by the person, a veteran friend of his. It was an unannounced visit. The clinician agreed to see him. The clinician keyed into the building, walked him back to his office and that is where the shooting occurred.
▶ 0:53:47Chair Moran: Chief allan, are you aware of the number of cboc 's -- there are none in wichita itself, but the goal v.a. Center manages cboc's across kansas. Are you aware of the security and police protection that occurs at cboc in our home state?
▶ 0:54:12Mr. Allan: Thank you for the question. Yes, sir. At our cboc, the robert j dole is responsible for, we do not currently staff them with v.a. Police. We do have memorandums of understanding with the local police. We have very good relationship with. Their response times when they have responded have been almost identical to our response times at our facility with v.a.
▶ 0:54:43Mr. Allan: Police, within approximately two to four minutes.
▶ 0:54:45Chair Moran: I would guess in most instances that cboc is two or 3, 4 hours or more away from the goal v.a. Center.
▶ 0:54:58Mr. Allan: That is correct. We do have some as far as approximately four hours away.
▶ 0:54:59Chair Moran: Mr. leffler, you mentioned this about making certain it is cboc safe ada cboc . Tell me what I should know about this topic.
▶ 0:55:10Mr. Leffler: Thank you for the question, senator. As was mentioned, there is a lot of cboc's not manned by v.a. Police officers. There is a lot of memorandums of understanding with local law enforcement. Having a ba.4 -- ava police officer would pay dividends and assist the veterans far and above.
▶ 0:55:32Chair Moran: Your point is it is practical for the v.a. To have an officer -- I wonder, just having a conversation with you, I wonder how this works in a remote location. And how the staffing occurs. I guess we would start with, we need. It, as the beginning premise. I would be glad to hear what else you can tell me.
▶ 0:55:55Mr. Leffler: Yes, sir. Thank you for the question. There are other states that have cboc's manned by officers. Some of them are probably the same distance, but they have officers -- I'm not completely aware of their set up and how they have it. I know there is some issues with being able to manage firearms and where they are within the facility, and transporting them in that nature. I know having them there would help a veteran in crisis.
▶ 0:56:24Chair Moran: Ok. Senator king?
▶ 0:56:27Sen. King: Thank you, Mr. chairman. First, I just want to be parochial for a minute. At our veterans hospital, the first veterans hospital in the country, we were forced to cut seven police vacancies because they were vacant as of this april vacancy cut. But they were vacant because the v.a. Was reviewing the policies with regard to consistency standards of v.a.
▶ 0:56:55Sen. King: Job description. It was kind of a catch 22. Mr. engelbaum, can you give me some help on this one? It seems to me this one deserves a little review. These positions were not vacant because no one was paying attention. They were vacant because you all told him to hold them vacant while you did this review.
▶ 0:57:19Mr. Engelbaum: Absolutely. Thank you so much. As part of the review, specific installations, in this case, medical centers were not directed to cut any specific positions. As was pointed out previously, and a lot of times police had to compete within the medical center for authorizations, and depending on how every individual radical center looked at it. Those authorizations varied.
▶ 0:57:49Mr. Engelbaum: Back to your point about a standard, that is really the point. We did not have a standard. We still don't. We are in the middle of that. We are addressing that right now. We had to go to a baseline to establish where we were and what people had. We are in the -- we are conducting a facility by facility review specifically for the police force. It will be done later on this fall where we will have defined requirements, manpower standards for every installation within the v.a. I'm happy to provide that once we get that complete.
▶ 0:58:20Sen. King: We have not necessarily lost those seven positions?
▶ 0:58:22Mr. Engelbaum: We have not. Even though based on request we have already plus step west l.a. By 80 police officers. We asked for additional 170. We are reacting where we identify requirements but we will have a holistic manpower state -- standard done later on this fall.
▶ 0:58:44Chair Moran: I appreciate that --
▶ 0:58:47Sen. King: I appreciate that. The other issue is pay, which we have discussed. The gs six starting salary, $45,000 comes to $21.83 an hour. Brunswick police department where I live, starting pay is $30.69 an hour, almost nine dollars more. The officer waterville police department, $23.
▶ 0:59:17Sen. King: Buck sport, 35 dollars. A school crossing guard is $16.78, not far from the v.a. Rate. I think that makes the case. We have to compete. When we go to hire people, we have to compete, in the numbers I gave you are all small towns in the vicinity of our halfway between togas and the major cboc that we have in portland.
▶ 0:59:42Sen. King: I think the case is clear that if we are going to have qualified and able people, we have to pay them a competitive rate. I hope that we can make that part of this discussion. Thank you. I look forward to that review. Thank you, Mr. chairman.
▶ 0:59:56Chair Moran: Thank you. Senator sheehy.
▶ 0:59:59Sen. Sheehy: Thanks, everyone, for being here. It is always important to remember that we are veterans, not victims. I think whether it is our v.a. Security, health care providers at our v.a. Facilities, we need to not encourage the victim ideology that unfortunately has been encouraged by many well-meaning americans who want to welcome our veterans home. Maybe they didn't serve.
▶ 1:00:32Sen. Sheehy: We victimize our veterans instead of treating them like the heroes they are and the volunteer warriors they are and where. I think that is a really important aspect we have to have an r care. We are proud of our service. We have earned benefits that we deserve to receive. At the same time, we are not veterans -- victims, we are veterans. Community care has been the law for the v.a. For some time. We are obligated to provide choice to our veterans and their ability to benefit from community care when available.
▶ 1:01:02Sen. Sheehy: And of course, our security aspects when we are talking about a v.a. Facility that can become the focus of a veterans higher at the v.a. Even if that wasn't their clinic, if they are mad about something, experiencing a crisis, they will oftentimes take out their anger at the nearest target they have. Unfortunately that could be there v.a. Facility. As you evaluate our security posture, it sounds like, Mr. mcneil -- Ms.
▶ 1:01:27Sen. Sheehy: Mcneil, you made discover is cared how does that expand to the community care network, and how do you think about the community care network? And how does that fold in to your -- although it is not protected by v.a. Police, if those providers are part of this veteran ecosystem, where does the community care model fall into that? That is for anyone to address.
▶ 1:02:00Sen. Sheehy: >> one of the things I learned when I first came into this position is the unique nature of v.a. Policing. And involves so much more than law enforcement. As you mentioned, many veterans -- and I am a veteran as well, a lot of challenges. When they come and seek care, it is more than just going to see the doctor. The issues, the emotions, the frustrations that we carry with us when we go to a facility, our v.a.
▶ 1:02:27Sen. Sheehy: Police as previously mentioned, they are the first ones you see when you come to a facility. They are the last ones you see when you leave. Those of v.a. Police officer set the tone for that visit. In the meantime, all of the disruptions and all of the things that they have to encounter in addition to policing adds to the uniqueness of our v.a. Police. I would offer that it sets the tone for care.
▶ 1:02:52Sen. Sheehy: I would agree completely. I think the v.a. Police, unfortunately, we have a lot of work to do. But also come into your point, arguably the v.a. Police probably spend more time in the presence of a veteran than anyone else. The waiting area is where our vets spend most of their time at the v.a. Clinic.
▶ 1:03:15Sen. Sheehy: If they are regularly dealing with the same veteran who is having the same issues, there may be an occasion where if we know that veteran is being referred to community care, is there also a referral system to let that clinic know that you will be receiving a veteran that is regularly having violent outbursts, or regularly having issues in the lobby. We have had multiple assaults with this person. So that when that veteran shows up to a local clinic, they know they will not deny care but they may be dealing with the situation that they are not used to dealing with.
▶ 1:03:47Sen. Sheehy: They may be dealing with someone who is experiencing a crisis, and they need to be ready to deal with that. I would be curious if that is anywhere in our procedures. If it's not, it's probably something we should think about. As we try to leverage community care, we don't want to have a red flag system where that follows people around. But we want to make sure that they are safe and other providers are aware of the status.
▶ 1:04:11Mr. Allan: One of the things that we have is called a disruptive behavior committee. What that committee does is they review -- there is a system that when the staff experiences any disruptive behavior, no matter how minor and his committee can enter the information they are experiencing into the system. There is a committee that is very diverse and includes v.a. Police that reviews that information.
▶ 1:04:37Mr. Allan: Whether it is a flag that may be requires more than one doctor or person to be in the room without individual, or in some situations, can require that individual to come to the main facility where we have v.a. Police who receive their care, if the concern is significant enough of physical violence or any kind of harm. That is another way of ensuring that individual is not receiving their care where there is not v.a. Police.
▶ 1:05:07Mr. Allan: We do see that happen on a fairly consistent basis where that system is used.
▶ 1:05:13Chair Moran: Senator hirono.
▶ 1:05:17Sen. Hirono: This is for Mr. neal. Like other facilities across the country, the vape pen in hawaii, and I understand you visited that hawaii and the facility last year? They have had a very high vacancy rates for police and security assistance since the positions were allocated.
▶ 1:05:40Sen. Hirono: When facilities were given caps at the end of last year, the venn medical director opted to cut vacant police positions of which there were quite a few, in favor of preserving clinical positions. I think it was also an appropriate decision. My question to you, has the department reassessed impacts to patients and staff safety post fte caps?
▶ 1:06:10Mr. Neal: Thank you for that I will ask mark engelbaum to follow up on that. Because of those challenges, I think the hawaiian facility was my third facility. My messages I met with the hospital staff was to find a balance. At least have a conversation with our v.a. Police, and let it be a two way conversation instead of unilateral.
▶ 1:06:31Mr. Engelbaum: Senator, yes, on the -- he can add more color to it, but the v.a. Constantly reviews its security postures with respect to its facilities across the board. With respect to the positions you are referring to, I think you highlight the issues we face, as I previously mentioned. We first had to understand and establish a baseline.
▶ 1:06:58Mr. Engelbaum: The way that went about and was previously mentioned, doing that at a very fractured -- every single separate medical center is really not a way that is sustainable. That is one of the reasons we did our consolidation. We are looking at this at an entire entity right now. Mentioned earlier, we are in the middle of a fundamental review, where we are establishing firm manpower standards for every single facility in the v.a. System.
▶ 1:07:28Mr. Engelbaum: That will be done later on this fall and I am committed to provide that to this committee once that is complete. We are going to man to the standard to whatever that may be. We have already addressed and tackled individual requests, plus sing up the police in certain locations such as west l.a. As mentioned. Another 107 authorizations elsewhere. We have a focused effort on this. Not only from the reclassification but specifically on the manpower standard.
▶ 1:07:56Sen. Hirono: The v.a. At large is already facing all kinds of staffing issues, shortages, recruiting, retention issues with the medical personnel. We have had hearings in this committee where there have been massive cuts to the v.a. Workforce and possibility of thousands of more in cats. There is an instability of what I can see regarding the v.a.. We are not doing the best for our veterans because of that.
▶ 1:08:26Sen. Hirono: While the cboc in hawaii can reassess its cutting decisions, how about the department exempting police from fda caps to ensure that the originally identified needs of each facility are met?
▶ 1:08:48Mr. Engelbaum: The fte caps are the reauthorization's. When you have available funding to do. Since we didn't have a structure, we had to create that. What we have done, they are not exempt. But what we care about is what are the requirements? Outside foundation which we have established, you can't just say this is a requirement that is valid or not. We got our baseline, we know how much money we have budgeted for.
▶ 1:09:18Mr. Engelbaum: We have a system set up that we can validate what the requirement is and we are now developing the manpower standard, so there is no question of what the actual requirement is. To answer your question, yes, we are developing that standard. We will clearly know what the requirement is, that is independent of any specific medical center staff. It is specific to the police and we are going to man to that level.
▶ 1:09:36Sen. Hirono: One would think each specific place -- we are talking about millions of veterans being cared for. There should be input from the people who are on the ground at the facility as to what their security needs are. With there be an opportunity for that kind of input? >> yes, ma'am their input is being taken.
▶ 1:10:00Sen. Hirono: I have a team of investigators and inspectors to go down to all 139 police service units to do deep dive assessments. We do surveys, we do interviews, so the input from the ground is being ascertained to determine what the requirement is for staffing, contracting, support services.
▶ 1:10:20Sen. Hirono: When will the determinations be made as to each facility? >> I expect reporting in the first quarter fy 27.
▶ 1:10:30Sen. Hirono: 2027? >> this fall.
▶ 1:10:34Sen. Hirono: Thank you, Mr. chairman.
▶ 1:10:36Chair Moran: Thank you. Let me go back to may be a basic question. What is the requirements, and are they standardized for employment within the v.a. As a law enforcement officer? >> the requirement for our law enforcement officers, we are working on those standards.
▶ 1:11:00Chair Moran: We have classified a 16 position descriptions working with our human capital partners, and those standards have been encapsulated in those position descriptions. The basic entry police officers, those are outlined in the position description as well.
▶ 1:11:18Chair Moran: So you are saying they are being determined now. That doesn't tell me whether they existed before the determination started. >> they have been determined. The descriptions, they are complete, signed and approved. Prior to that, we had 139 different ways of doing position descriptions throughout the v.a. Because they were being classified at the facility.
▶ 1:11:42Chair Moran: Got it. What will those -- what are those qualifications now? How do they compare? We heard senator king talk about comparisons of salary and compensation. How do they compare to someone who is applying to be a police officer in topeka, as his example, how do they compare in qualifications in training and certification as a law enforcement officer at the police department in the same town?
▶ 1:12:15Chair Moran: >> we worked together with our partners. We fill the position descriptions are very competitive. They start out ada's a baseline -- start out at a baseline, the first-line supervisor will be a nine and this second line supervisor will be an 11. We feel it is very competitive. There are incentives that we can provide along the way to ensure that their competition with the local community can be commiserate.
▶ 1:12:40Chair Moran: Mr. leffler, do you know about what Mr. hernandez is talking about? Have you seen the classifications -- qualifications?
▶ 1:12:48Mr. Leffler: I have not seen any yet.
▶ 1:12:51Chair Moran: I would welcome you the opportunity to see those and comment to us in writing about how you see that work product. Does that make sense?
▶ 1:13:02Mr. Leffler: I would love to do so.
▶ 1:13:05Chair Moran: Thank you. Let me make sure we hear from Ms. mcneil. Dr. neal said because of what has taken place at the v.a. In recent times, in this administration, that many -- and I think I'm saying reasonably what Dr. neal said, many of the things that are included as your recommendations have been met. Can you respond to that?
▶ 1:13:34Ms. Mcneil: We have seen no evidence that our recommendations have been addressed by the v.a. Just going back to 2018, the update we received from the v.a. In april was that they are drafting policies, and that they are in the review stage. Because our 2018 racks are quite dated, as you can see.
▶ 1:14:00Ms. Mcneil: And all we are asking for is for their risk management to be consistent with the isc, the federal standards. We are still waiting to see those draft policies.
▶ 1:14:10Chair Moran: Mr. neal?
▶ 1:14:14Mr. Neal: I want to clarify that we said we are in the process of meeting those requirements. Even before I read the gao report, the things outlined and the concerns were on my desk. As new assistant secretary. We are getting after many of those things. Again, I was not aware of what the report said until a couple days ago.
▶ 1:14:40Chair Moran: To I just quoted you, I'm sorry. I want to make certain we don't have the circumstance in which the v.a. Says we are complying or we will comply without actual compliance.
▶ 1:14:45Mr. Neal: I agree. I agree, Mr. chairman. Let me ask you to say that in a way that is important for me to hear. How will you treat the gao recommendations? >> the v.a. Concurs with the three recommendations.
▶ 1:15:07Mr. Neal: Part of that consolidation is the secretary is giving me the authority to have oversight over this whereas before we did not have oversight and as I said earlier, we came in -- this administration came in and I did not know where we were. We had to figure out how to see ourselves so I had clear guidance on the secretary. We have done a lot but now, I have to frame what we have done in the context of this report.
▶ 1:15:33Mr. Neal: >> you will take the report seriously or at least explain to the gao as a conversation about what they are requiring doesn't make sense to you, is that true? I don't know what kind of timeframe you will be on on this but I would ask my staff to follow up in a few more months to see that what you just described is occurring. Does that make sense to you?
▶ 1:16:02Mr. Neal: Miss mcneil, something you would like for me to ask the department of veterans affairs that would be helpful to assure the gao of their seriousness and of the efforts to comply?
▶ 1:16:12Ms. Mcneil: We had a very productive meeting yesterday. He committed to a very open, constant communication with us on these issues and I am taking him at his word and I am very encouraged we will have hopefully within the next month or two substantive discussion about the actions they plan to take.
▶ 1:16:36Ms. Mcneil: We were not able to incorporate any of the specific details about how they are going to address our recommendations in the report that was published today and I think that is the next step we would like to hear some substantive details about the actions they are going to take to implement our recommendations and within the next month or two, I think that would be very helpful. >> those conversations you expect to continue between the two of you were your teams? You are welcome. Mr. mcneil -- Mr.
▶ 1:17:04Ms. Mcneil: Neil, I point out that there is no expectation that you have complied with the recommendations because we are just seeing them now this week so I understand that. And I appreciate the evidence seriousness by which you take those recommendations.
▶ 1:17:26Ms. Mcneil: It was also commented on that this issue of staffing, this seems to me to be a problem that sounds like you are correcting but the idea that a hospital director would have the capability of choosing whether to hire a police officer or law enforcement officer or nurse out of the same pot of money is a terrible conflict in trying to make the right choice for the care and well-being of veterans and their families and that is
▶ 1:17:57Ms. Mcneil: Being corrected or has been corrected. >> yes, sir. A little bit of both and I would be remiss and if you would indulge me, chairman, because I think we have done a lot of great work on this and to highlight some of the things that were brought up earlier, if I made, one of the first things as I mentioned was we talked about the pay but it's a lot more than the pay so when we first came on, we inherited this pay situation but I have to be frank.
▶ 1:18:26Ms. Mcneil: When we talk about standards, those are federal standards so what happened was this general background. They are 40 plus years old, right, but they defined what a police officer does. >> federal standards that are government wide? >> yes, sir. What happened was agencies are authorized to classify and what happened, because the standards and the way the v.a. Classified these positions were not in accordance with the federal standard.
▶ 1:18:51Ms. Mcneil: We were not abiding by federal guidelines so they were over classified in many areas to try to compensate for a problem here when opm came in and did a consistency review to make sure we are in accordance with stant -- federal standards, they ordered the downgrade so there is a little bit of onus on both sides. This is what we walked into and what we walked into is a situation where people did not take action to address the problem. What have we done about it?
▶ 1:19:20Ms. Mcneil: One of the first things we did is we got with opm to ask them to paul to hold on this, to allow us time to work this. Secretary meal really address some of the detrimental effects by this but in the interim, we did not put a hold on this. We worked very closely with os p.
▶ 1:19:39Ms. Mcneil: We went over and as part of this whole reorganization, first of all, we created a pipeline before in the past, there was not a clear path so it wasn't just coming in and if you look at the details of why people laughed, there is no care or progression. It was not all just about pay.
▶ 1:19:57Ms. Mcneil: Development, trust in leadership was a big one, you know, that we provided so what we have done is we have created a professional chain of command, simple unified chain of command, that provides that guidance, leadership, and development for our entire force. We have also given now in a career path to folks to move forward. We took all of our position descriptions and reclassified 16 of 17 of them.
▶ 1:20:26Ms. Mcneil: The way we did that was not just accept what was there but under the current federal guidelines, we went in and looked at what officers actually were doing. We went back to square one and did that. So I'm happy to report what we did resulted in an entry level police officer being recategorized as a gs six entry level from the gs five. I would like to say we put the first U.S. wide announcement out on the streets that has been out there and closed.
▶ 1:20:56Ms. Mcneil: We got over 2100 applicants for positions. 1900 of them are still under consideration. 1700 or so are under active consideration so that we have this pool now of folks that we can do and we also now have this career progression. We have a path forward that an entry-level officer with the training and development can come in as a gs six and go out all the way up to the highest echelons if he or she has those qualities to be able to do that.
▶ 1:21:26Ms. Mcneil: So we provided that so it's not just a matter of pay. It's a matter of discipline, training, leadership, development, and that ability to progress. We found that officers were leaving us because they had nowhere to go. In addition to that as previously mentioned, we instituted special salary rates are just the basic entry-level pay is not what they get. We have ss, special salary rates for over 90% of our police force.
▶ 1:21:57Ms. Mcneil: For example, midgrade, our average gs six pay for police officers is $67,000 a year. Of course, that varies by location depending on where you are at with the ssris. Anyway, very happy to really highlight that. We didn't just sit. We took action. We worked at it. We have a vital solution.
▶ 1:22:19Ms. Mcneil: This last thing is we are working with opm and we are looking -- we have taken the lead of working with them and we pushed the reviewing the officer classification standards, 40-year-old standards I mentioned to you to the top of the list and we are doing a review with opm that will affect the entire federal government and will be done by july and the hope, that will be the last piece of the puzzle. That will allow us -- actually, it really focuses more on qualifications.
▶ 1:22:46Ms. Mcneil: I think that will be a big benefit of that rather than just education and how much time have you served here? As officers gather experience, go to courses, get training and development and qualified, they will be able to move up or take other positions rather than just saying were you a gs seven for a year? We got that so pending your questions, sir. >> that is helpful. Let me ask a question before I turned to Mr. neil. Is there a training program within the v.a. For v.a.
▶ 1:23:20Ms. Mcneil: Systemwide, for training law enforcement officers? >> yes, sir. Just to highlight, that is another area and I am glad you brought that up. We revitalized that entire training program and extended it from seven weeks to 11 weeks to better professionalize our force. It is a key component of what we are doing. >> the police officers in the v.a. In kansas and connecticut will have received the same training. >> exactly right, senator.
▶ 1:23:46Ms. Mcneil: The law enforcement training center in little rock, arkansas is a fully accredited by the federal law enforcement training accreditation board. Our police officer training went from seven weeks to 11 weeks and that has been done in partnership with the board to make sure that we meet all the standards.
▶ 1:24:09Ms. Mcneil: The enhancements that we made in the curriculum included enhanced crisis intervention training and I am happy to highlight that the v.a. Police in columbus, ohio, actually were the 2026 award use of the cit international mobile crisis response team of the year award. So kudos to our officers in columbus, ohio. It has crisis intervention trainings with more in person type of role.
▶ 1:24:40Ms. Mcneil: We have also have enhanced the escalation procedures which makes everything safer for everybody across the board when they employ those and then we added additions like civil disturbance and disordered training so that we can set our officers up for success when we conduct our mission. >> did you have something you wanted to say?
▶ 1:25:00Ms. Mcneil: >> I was just going to emphasize, you know, senator, a lot of the concerns raised by this panel and your own concerns, I will tell you that this administration, we are getting after it. As I have gone out and visited with our police, I hear them loud and clear. And in all of the things we have described are where we were and where we are leaving.
▶ 1:25:24Ms. Mcneil: I would like to offer chief alan the opportunity to give a perspective on if he actually sees changes or if he actually sees, you know, I can say a lot of things but if nothing changes when secretary neil leaves and goes back to the sea, then it is all for naught so I would like to ask the chief if he would offer his perspective on if he's actually seeing some movement, some changes. >> yes, sir. The answer to that is absolutely yes, especially over the last five or six months.
▶ 1:25:54Ms. Mcneil: The changes that I have noticed most drastically is the level of communication coming from top to bottom. We are getting information flow that we have not seen. I have been with the v.a. Police for 22 years. This is my second facility and this is the most communication flow that I have seen.
▶ 1:26:17Ms. Mcneil: And while there may be struggles with staffing and there may be other struggles and things that are going on around my officers is -- as shorthanded as we may be at times, the morale of the officers that I have right now is extremely high and motivated and they are actually getting us -- as much more accomplished with what we have. Because they are motivated, seeing what this team is doing. They are motivated.
▶ 1:26:46Ms. Mcneil: They feel that they have someone that is finally in their corner, someone fighting for them and they are doing great things and what I would ask this committee to do is to get behind that, continue to support them and support the officers and not let that down. >> when you use the words, what we have, was not referring to the number of officers? >> that is correct. >> is that number yet sufficient?
▶ 1:27:15Ms. Mcneil: >> that number is not as many as I would like to have -- >> Mr. allan: I have assurance that with what they have in place with the manpower pool that that backup will be opened up to us in the very near future.
▶ 1:27:41Ms. Mcneil: >> I'm going to wrap this up in just a minute because I have no one to turn this hearing over two and I have to go vote but let me ask a broad question. I was thinking as I thought about this hearing of the number of times I walked into the sometimes unannounced v.a.
▶ 1:27:58Ms. Mcneil: Or eastern division -- division in the issue -- the eastern hospital in leavenworth for topeka and I was trying to think of what, particularly when I was unannounced, with the security was just in getting in the facility. What is this -- what does a visitor encounter upon arrival in wichita or topeka?
▶ 1:28:26Ms. Mcneil: >> I cannot answer for topeka but what I can say for wichita, first thing that hopefully you will see as an exterior police patrol and the vehicle. Our greatest resource is our officers and our physical presence in crime deterrence. Our officers are very much into community policing and being seeing and being public.
▶ 1:28:55Ms. Mcneil: At one point, we did try some of the artificial intelligence weapon detection systems. Unfortunately, they were locking down the building for laptops and all kinds of other things. >> does a visitor go through a screener? >> just to come into the building.
▶ 1:29:18Ms. Mcneil: There were two sets of doors and you walk through it and if a detective anything that was supposed to be a weapon -- >> do I know I'm going through it? >> not very noticeable. And then it would lock down the second set of doors and it would notify the police and we would have to respond to that location.
▶ 1:29:41Ms. Mcneil: Unfortunately, sometimes, 20, 30 times a day, we are responding and it's a laptop or something to that effect to the point where it is impacting patient access which is as you know another issue. So you know, trying to differentiate that.
▶ 1:29:57Ms. Mcneil: It became completely ineffective so our proactive patrols, we use predictive crime analysis tools to determine where the highest rate of crimes are at what times, locations, and what type of incidents so we know how to direct our patrols. And several other programs as well. >> thank you. >> yes, sir.
▶ 1:30:25Ms. Mcneil: >> asked the witnesses at a hearing I conducted if they have something they wish they had not have -- had not had said. Or something they wish they could say and I give you that opportunity although it needs to be brief if you don't mind. >> chairman, I appreciate it. Again, we take the findings very seriously that I will -- it's part of my responsibility to make sure the v.a. Meets those performance requirements.
▶ 1:30:48Ms. Mcneil: But I will say out of 131,000 and police reports, you know, we have had various success with weapons and other things that are highlighted so if you look at the gao's report, 98% of health-care workers, 98% of veterans to feel safe at our facilities. We have got some gaps and we want to address them but our police officers are working hard every day in meeting safety requirements and keeping our facilities safe.
▶ 1:31:18Ms. Mcneil: >> thank you very much would use this moment to express gratitude to the witnesses and to the folks in the department of veterans affairs who are law enforcement officers who protect and defend other veterans. And other visitors and family members. It is a difficult challenge. It is true outside the v.a.
▶ 1:31:44Ms. Mcneil: Emergency rooms in today's hospitals today can be pretty dangerous places and I hope that you will pay particular attention to emergency departments with issues related to mental health and drug abuse and the factors that affect human behavior. And I would ask that you express gratitude from this committee, from the united states senate, for the service of your law enforcement officers and we look forward to following up. This seems to me to be a circumstance that the v.a.
▶ 1:32:12Ms. Mcneil: Has been in a circumstance they should never have been in in regard to law enforcement and the well-being of those officers and the people they serve. It also seems to me that this department of veterans affairs is working to correct what I see as a poor history in regard to law enforcement support at the department.
▶ 1:32:37Ms. Mcneil: I also want to add to the hearing record and ask unanimous consent to do so a list of the -- that honors the 12 v police officers who made the ultimate sacrifice, officers who went to work every day to protect and serve our veterans. They deserve and have our respect and admiration and remembrance and without objection, as so awarded. Thank you for your participation in today's hearing.
▶ 1:33:05Ms. Mcneil: [gavel] [captioning performed by the national captioning institute, which is responsible for its caption content and accuracy. Visit ncicap.org]