▶ 0:14:12Chair Blackburn: Good afternoon, thank you all for being here. This subcommittee on privacy, technology and the law will come to order. Today we are going to examine the landmark verdict out of los angeles and new mexico let prove what so many of us have known for years.
▶ 0:14:36Chair Blackburn: That social media companies intentionally design their platforms to addict our children into profit. When our children are on those platforms, they are the product. For too long, families who sought justice as big tech ceos hid behind the shield of section 230.
▶ 0:15:02Chair Blackburn: Parents could not get the accountability they deserved. We have called big tech ceos in front of congressional committees and courageous whistleblowers. -- provided testimony under oath , that meda suppressed child safety research and profited from what one user called the pedophile kingdom.
▶ 0:15:36Chair Blackburn: While big tech continues acting with impunity, parents and families have not stopped fighting for children across this nation. The tide is beginning to turn and these recent verdicts signal a shift. Courts are beginning to conclude that protecting our children online is not a content issue. It is a platform design issue.
▶ 0:16:04Chair Blackburn: These social media platforms are designed to capture our child's attention, maximize engagement and profit off of what I call their virtual you. And big tech has zero remorse for how this harms children. They have zero respect for the child. We will also hear about mark zuckerberg's testimony in the l.a. Trial.
▶ 0:16:36Chair Blackburn: Let's be clear, for years meta has done everything in its power to keep Mr. zuckerberg from the witness stand. After his testimony in this case, we know why. He has lied to congress for years.
▶ 0:16:52Chair Blackburn: Whether it was about meta's goal to increase screen time or about meta's own internal research showing that there was a negative correlation between social media use and teen mental health. One thing is abundantly clear. Meta's record when it comes to protecting children online is indefensible. And these are not the only cases moving forward in federal court.
▶ 0:17:24Chair Blackburn: Thousands of cases, many as part of the multidistrict litigation involving families, state attorneys general and school districts detail just how deep the rot is at these companies. But these court cases alone are not enough. Because while courts can punish past harms, it is up to congress to prevent future harm to our children.
▶ 0:17:51Chair Blackburn: That is why congress must pass my kids online safety act, the bill simply ensures that online platforms are designed with safety in mind for our children. That's it. It is a simple bill.
▶ 0:18:09Chair Blackburn: And it is incredibly telling that social media companies have spent tens of millions of dollars to defeat the bill, and any other regulation to protect children online. In the first quarter of 2026, meta and google hired one lobbyist for every six members of congress. One lobbyist for every six members of congress. Think about that.
▶ 0:18:43Chair Blackburn: I want to call attention to the fact that there are two parents here with us, who lost their children due to big tech exploitation, while hundreds of big tech lobbyists actively working to stop cosa and other child safety legislation hide in board rooms across this city. Ms. bogard, Ms.
▶ 0:19:04Chair Blackburn: Norring are here to tell their stories and urge congress to finally take action, and the american people are paying attention to this issue. I also want to take a moment to thank the parents that are here with us and in the audience today.
▶ 0:19:27Chair Blackburn: Their stories are so compelling, and their help in passing the kids online safety act is appreciated and I know we are not going to stop until we get this to president trump's desk this year. I look forward to the testimony and I recognize the ranking member britt.
▶ 0:19:48Ranking Member Klobuchar: Thank you very much chair blackburn for holding today's hearing. Thank you to our witnesses for being here. Ms. bogard, thank you for being here. I'm sure this is difficult, and Ms. norring, who I have gotten to know very well. In your son's name you have been an incredible advocate for families both nationally and in our state. Thank you. So here is the issue.
▶ 0:20:18Ranking Member Klobuchar: As the chairman explained, social media company algorithms are designed to keep people online as long as possible and collect information, and then sell as many advertisements as possible. Sadly all of that includes kids and very young kids.
▶ 0:20:37Ranking Member Klobuchar: According to a study, social media platforms generated $11 billion in revenue in 2022 from advertising directed at children and teenagers, including nearly $2 billion in profits derived from users age 12 and under. To protect the profits, the companies often design their platforms in ways that increase teenage addiction. Then these platforms become prey to predators.
▶ 0:21:09Ranking Member Klobuchar: People that are pushing sexual exploitation, people pushing harmful content from eating disorders and provide venues as we know in several cases, for dealers to sell drugs. One parent told me her child's social media use was like a water faucet on full blast.
▶ 0:21:30Ranking Member Klobuchar: The water was overflowing while she was sitting out there with a mop trying to wipe it up and figure out how to get her child off of one platform, going to her eldest to get advice on what to do and then they find a new platform. For so many parents like the two before us today, there are permanent tragic consequences. Bridget lost her teenage son after he took a fentanyl laced pill he believed was percocet, purchased through social media.
▶ 0:22:02Ranking Member Klobuchar: Joanne lost her teenage son after he tried the blackout challenge that he saw online. That is why parents, victims and state attorneys general have been standing up to hold these platforms accountable and protect others from enduring the pain that they have gone through. In the face of their grief, they are suing social media companies for the harms their platforms have caused.
▶ 0:22:26Ranking Member Klobuchar: We've had two significant cases just recently in a bellwether case that may shape how thousands of others are resolved. A california jury found meta and youtube were negligent in how they design their platforms. A young girl findlay -- simply felt she could not break away.
▶ 0:22:47Ranking Member Klobuchar: The state of new mexico won its case against meta, alleging the company knowingly exposes children to the twin harms of sexual exploitation and mental health harm. 370 $5 million in damages. These courtroom victories are incredibly important. But they cannot be an excuse for complacency. We must continue to empower victims, opening the court room door.
▶ 0:23:14Ranking Member Klobuchar: I've been a longtime supporter of after finally deciding that we wouldn't be able to pass a bunch of laws I wanted to pass, getting rid of section 230 or at least reforming it and even with some of these victories, the companies have continued to block changes in congress. Meta even used its power as a dominant provider of online advertising to hide legitimate advertisements by lawyers informing parents and kids of the harms of social media.
▶ 0:23:46Ranking Member Klobuchar: Senator cruz and I have teamed up in the past for the take the debt -- take it down act. Platforms will be held accountable if they don't take either real images of nonconsensual pornography or ai created images down. We already have criminal prosecutions against those that help spread this trash that have been successful.
▶ 0:24:10Ranking Member Klobuchar: Congress also needs to pass -- and senator blackburn and I worked together with a group of parents, the senate version of the kids online safety act, to ensure that the platforms designed their products to prevent, mitigate harms. It passed the senate on a 91-3 vote last congress and needs to be taken up and passed immediately.
▶ 0:24:37Ranking Member Klobuchar: There are vital issues to get right and we cannot allow children to continue to be in harm's way every time they pick up a smart phone or tablet. It is time to stop talking about the problem and do something. I look forward to hearing from the witnesses.
▶ 0:24:58Chair Blackburn: Mr. chairman is recognized. -- proves the importance of the issue and you have been a leading voice in protecting children from social media harm.
▶ 0:25:21Chair Blackburn: The recent verdicts against social media companies relating to addictive platforms makes very clear that congress must take meaningful action to protect kids online. That meaningful action must include oversight and legislation.
▶ 0:25:42Chair Blackburn: That is why I have introduced a bipartisan bill in this area, including sentencing accountability for exploitation act, the ending coercion of children online act and the stop sextortion act.
▶ 0:26:05Chair Blackburn: I've done this with ranking member durbin of the full judiciary committee and also joined senator graham in introducing legislation that would repeal section 230 immunity that big tech companies have had since 1996. These bipartisan bills aimed to hold violent criminals accountable and combat online child exploitation.
▶ 0:26:33Chair Blackburn: In february 2025 and december 2025, I held hearings for the full judiciary committee on child safety in the digital area and protecting kids against online exploitation. For over a year, myself and senators blackburn and h awley have investigated meta.
▶ 0:27:02Chair Blackburn: On april 24 and 16th, I wrote to meta. In those letters I raise questions about meta's reported efforts to silence whistleblowers, former employees blew the whistle on meta's employment agreements. The company's ties to china.
▶ 0:27:25Chair Blackburn: Potential violation of the foreign corrupt practices act, and the company's alleged practices of targeting vulnerable teenagers. In those letters I raise questions regarding meta's use of targeted ads toward teenagers , and then on september 2 of 2025 and september 10 of the same year, I along with senators
▶ 0:27:55Chair Blackburn: Blackburn and hawley sent additional letters to meta. In those letters we raised concerns about the use of targeted advertisements, protecting teenagers on their platforms, and compliance with the federal trade commission orders in the children's online privacy protection act.
▶ 0:28:19Chair Blackburn: We also noted that whistleblower disclosures and public reporting concerns about the company's interaction with the chinese communist party and the data privacy and security measures on whatsapp. We raised additional questions about how meta used their generative artificial intelligence platforms targeting kids.
▶ 0:28:48Chair Blackburn: To date, meta has failed to comply with our investigative demands. So on march 11 of this year, we sent meta the following letter. In that letter, we raised new concerns about public reporting and court filings, stating that meta misled the public about the risks associated with their products.
▶ 0:29:17Chair Blackburn: However, meta is not the only company that must address how they are protecting our kids online. The public deserves to know how these companies are protecting kids from risks related to their platforms. This committee's efforts on these important matters will continue. Thank you.
▶ 0:29:38Chair Blackburn: Senator durbin?
▶ 0:29:43Sen. Durbin: Madam chair I am sorry I am late. But I ask that my introductory statement be placed in the record. I want to change the situation, I want to make it happen soon. Two things we can do, repeal section 230. Give every american family access to courts, to enforce the protection of their children. You will see things happen dramatically if you do those two things. Thank you.
▶ 0:30:12Chair Blackburn: Thank you senator durbin. And to our witnesses, rachel lanier is a member of the trial team and served as cocounsel in the social media addiction lawsuit legal team that secured a $6 million verdict against meta and youtube.
▶ 0:30:37Chair Blackburn: She focuses on holding social media companies accountable for their harmful addictive features, particularly those that impact vulnerable children and teenagers. Ms. lanier has been named one of the 500 leading plaintiff consumer lawyers, best lawyers for personal injury litigation. And top 40 under 40 civil plaintiff lawyer.
▶ 0:31:04Chair Blackburn: Miss joann bogard tragically lost her 15-year-old mason to the choking challenge, a viral social media trend targeting young people online. As a mother an employee of the second largest school district in indiana, she pioneered the passage of a sin's education act which was signed into indiana state law in 2024.
▶ 0:31:30Chair Blackburn: Her advocacy in media literacy has helped schools implement tools and resources to teach kids how to stay safe online. She is also a volunteer for fairplay's screen time action network and a member of parents for safe online spaces. Dr. mary leary is a professor of law at the -- where she directs modern prosecution programs.
▶ 0:32:03Chair Blackburn: She is a former federal prosecutor and has worked on issues addressing the abuse and exploitation of women and children, child pornography, sex trafficking, technology and family violence. She serves as chair of the U.S. senate -- sentencing commission victims advocacy group.
▶ 0:32:24Chair Blackburn: She was a former deputy director for the office of counsel and the former director of the national center for the prosecution of child abuse. Miss bridgette norring comes to us today as a mother who tragically lost her 19-year-old son, devon in 2020 after he unknowingly purchased a prescription drug through snapchat that contained fentanyl
▶ 0:32:55Chair Blackburn: . She was in the room in 2025 when president trump signed the halt fentanyl act into law, which permanently classified fentanyl related substances as schedule one drugs under the controlled substance act. She continues to be a leading voice in combating the fentanyl crisis and advocating to protect children in the virtual space. I would like to ask each of you to rise, raise your right hand.
▶ 0:33:27Chair Blackburn: Let me swear you and. Do you swear or affirm that the statements you are about to make are the truth, the whole truth and nothing but the truth so help you god? Thank you. All answered in the affirmative. Ms. lanier, we are coming to you first for your five-minute testimony.
▶ 0:33:48Ms. Lanier: Chairwoman blackburn, ranking member klobuchar and distinguished members of the committee. Thank you for the opportunity to testify today. Meta and youtube build features into their platforms to work like slot machines, engineered to hijack the developing brains of children. For the first time in history an american jury looked at two of the most powerful technology companies in the world and delivered a message.
▶ 0:34:18Ms. Lanier: What you've done to our children is unacceptable. I was in that court room and I am here to tell you what the jury saw and why it matters. My name is rachel lanier. I am a trial lawyer and serve as managing attorney of our los angeles office. I tried the verses meta and google case, the first case decided by an american jury.
▶ 0:34:45Ms. Lanier: Alongside my family members, my father, my sister and our diligent trial team. As a parent to four including two teenagers, the evidence I saw in that case keeps me up at night. First, children's brains are being hijacked, and big tech designed it that way. Children are the future of america and their brains are being changed by these companies not for the better. Meta and others operate in what they call the attention economy.
▶ 0:35:16Ms. Lanier: Their entire business model depends on keeping your child's eyes on their apps as long as possible, because attention means money. Our client started using youtube at age six, instagram at age nine. By the time she was a teenager, she was struggling with depression, anxiety, body dysmorphia and suicidal ideation. She is not alone, she is one of millions. Platform features were engineered to tap into the brains reward systems.
▶ 0:35:49Ms. Lanier: Infinite scroll removing natural stopping points. Algorithmic feeds optimized for engagement. Push notifications, deliberate design choices dealt to maximize time on the app because that means more advertising revenue and data harvesting. These platforms cause neurological harm to developing minds. Science supports it and so do the companies' own internal research.
▶ 0:36:21Ms. Lanier: The companies chose profit over child safety. Mark zuckerberg told this body that children under 13 are not allowed on his platforms. The evidence tells a different story. Meta's own internal estimates showed over 4 million american children under 13 were on instagram as of 2015. Roughly 30% of every 10 through 12-year-old in this country.
▶ 0:36:47Ms. Lanier: The other documents stated the goal of if we want to win big with teens, we have to bring them in as tweens. Internal meta documents show employees describing instagram as "like a drug" and the employees as "pushers." internal google documents compare their own products to slot machines.
▶ 0:37:16Ms. Lanier: When whistleblowers raised safety concerns, the answer from the top was clear, growth comes first. This committee has the power to act and how you act matters enormously. Our founders gave us the jury trial for this exact moment. The court room is one of the most powerful tools we have to force accountability when there is wrongdoing. Brave families pursuing these cases forced to these companies to hand over the evidence. Any legislation must set a floor, not a ceiling.
▶ 0:37:48Ms. Lanier: State laws, tort claims and consumer protections that go further must be preserved. Do not let preemption language become the mechanism by which these companies escape accountability in a courtroom. S. 3947 was written before any of these platforms existed and was never designed for the world we live in now. This committee should seriously consider a total repeal of section 230, or at a minimum, carve out algorithmic designs, kids and teenagers.
▶ 0:38:18Ms. Lanier: Free speech does not require addictive design. The burden cannot fall on parents alone. Most parents are doing their best, but they are up against trillion dollar companies who have entire teams dedicated to profit, growth and engagement on their platforms. That is not a fair fight. I represent parents and families every day. I'm happy to serve as a resource for this committee in any way I can. It is a privilege to testify before you.
▶ 0:38:48Ms. Lanier: I am grateful for the work you are doing on behalf of america's children and welcome your questions.
▶ 0:38:54Chair Blackburn: Thank you. Ms. bogard?
▶ 0:38:58Ms. Bogard: Subcommittee members, thank you for inviting me to share our story. My name is joanne bogard. I am a mother of three. The child online safety act -- a family member, and I live in indiana with my husband. We have been blessed with almost 40 years of marriage and three beautiful children. Before retiring, steve served our community as a firefighter and I worked in our public school system.
▶ 0:39:31Ms. Bogard: Seven years ago, I made a promise to fight for change. I made that promise to my 15-year-old son mason when he was on life support after he attempted a dangerous viral challenge that the youtube algorithm fed to him unsolicited. It is why I have been advocating for the kids online safety act for over four years.
▶ 0:39:56Ms. Bogard: This is my 14th trip to capitol hill with other survivor parents, telling the story of the worst day of our lives, over and over in order to protect other kids. I am here today to ask congress to finish the job and pass kosa. Mason was our youngest of three. He was our creative kid, always taking things apart to create something new.
▶ 0:40:22Ms. Bogard: He loved fishing, hiking, camping, playing drums and entertaining his friends and family with his humor. He was smart, funny, compassionate and generous. He had great friends and went to a good school. At 15 he started his first job at a landscape business and was excited to start driver's ed. He wanted to join the army after graduation. May 1, 2019 started as a normal day for our family with our typical routines of work, school and dinner.
▶ 0:40:54Ms. Bogard: That night mason gave his dad's typical hug, went upstairs to take his shower and called to me. I love you, momma. I replied I love you too, buddy. Those were our last words. A few minutes later, we would find mason's lifeless body not breathing, no heartbeat.
▶ 0:41:22Ms. Bogard: My husband started cpr and got a pulse back. Mason spent a week on life support but never woke up. Our answer to what had happened was on his phone. A self recorded video where he had tried a viral social media trend called the choking game that the youtube algorithm had fed to him unsolicited.
▶ 0:41:46Ms. Bogard: This is a trend where kids make themselves pass out, wake up and post their seemingly funny videos seeking likes and clicks that are so important, to make them feel accepted by their peers. For mason and too many others, it went horribly wrong and we lost our sweet boy. Since mason died, each week I search for those videos on social media.
▶ 0:42:13Ms. Bogard: I have found dozens and I report them. Yet they are never removed. Tech companies -- just one of the ways that platform executives have repeatedly proven that they will not -- in a manner that consistently protects children. They give parents and users and congress a false sense of safety with promises of protections in safety measures.
▶ 0:42:43Ms. Bogard: Research has shown that just ate out of the over 40 I parental safety features work as advertised. I was here in 2024 when the tiktok ceo lied about tiktok having zero challenges on their platform. I still find them today.
▶ 0:43:10Ms. Bogard: At the same hearing, meta's ceo mark zuckerberg lied to senators including some of you before me today, claiming to have no knowledge of a correlation between social media and mental health harms. I was at the social media trial against meta and google in los angeles where mark zuckerberg lied again about his product being harmful and taking no responsibility for decisions he made that put youth on instagram at risk.
▶ 0:43:40Ms. Bogard: Thankfully a jury found meta and google liable and negligent. Comments are often made that it is a parent's responsibility to protect their children online. I am here today to say that even the best parenting skills can't fight these companies and their algorithms. I was the engaged parent who did everything the experts advised. Yet this harmful content still found its way to his phone.
▶ 0:44:06Ms. Bogard: My experience and the experience of other survivor parents sitting behind me today make it clear that parents cannot fight this alone. When people ask where are the parents in the -- of these children? I can tell you the answer. We survivor parents are here on capitol hill, sitting through countless hearings, meeting with members of congress.
▶ 0:44:28Ms. Bogard: We are in the classrooms, the town halls, starting foundations, knocking on meta's door in silicon valley, rallying outside the apple office, meeting with president trump and tomorrow we have a meeting with speaker johnson. That is where you will find us, fighting for your children, your grandchildren. Because ours are gone. We don't want any other family to feel this pain. We started a huge movement and we are not going anywhere until it is finished.
▶ 0:45:01Ms. Bogard: I'm asking every lawmaker to join us in this fight. Do what you do best, pass legislation to protect america's young people. I pray that this is the very last hearing for kosa, and that it moves forward quickly in the senate and becomes law, to honor the children who have died at the hands of these platforms, and begin protecting every child online. Parents were glad to hear ted cruz announce at our mother's day rally yesterday that he plans to mark up kosa.
▶ 0:45:31Ms. Bogard: We asked him to schedule that markup without delay. Thank you senator blackburn and blumenthal for being champions of this bill in the senate enter ranking member klobuchar and the subcommittee for standing with the survivor parents and allowing me to share our story with you today.
▶ 0:45:49Chair Blackburn: Thank you. Dr. leary.
▶ 0:45:53Dr. Leary: Thank you senator blackburn, ranking member klobuchar, thank you to all the parents in the room today. It is an honor as an academic to stand with such brave and tremendous people. I regret that we are all here. The title of today's hearing has embedded in it, certain implications. That private law and public law complement each other to protect.
▶ 0:46:22Dr. Leary: That that is the goal, to protect and prevent harm, not simply to provide a remedy for victims after the harm has occurred. And finally it also implies a question. Do these verdicts demand congress act? The answer is a resounding yes. I want to speak generally and then specifically. Generally there is a historic and fundamental obligation of congress to protect.
▶ 0:46:51Dr. Leary: Alexander hamilton asked in 1787, why has government been instituted at all? His answer was because the passions of men will not conform to the dictates of reason and justice without constraint. The supreme court has noted the most basic function of any government is to provide for the security of the individual.
▶ 0:47:14Dr. Leary: While undoubtedly you must balance these applications with other constraints and obligation , there is no question that federal legislation lays a central and unique role in protecting citizens from harm. In short, we don't leave it simply to the victims to fend for themselves, particularly as Ms. lanier pointed out, when they are fighting an extraordinarily powerful industrial force. There is historical pattern here.
▶ 0:47:42Dr. Leary: When new industries emerged, there often is a time where government does not intervene, waiting to see what the harms are to balance the benefits, and to learn more. But as the industry grows and its potential to inflict harm on the public becomes more apparent, the public law, public statutes often respond with a legal framework that does two things. Incentivizes protection and balances the advantage of that industry with the threat of harm to the public.
▶ 0:48:13Dr. Leary: These take many forms, including but not limited to public welfare, criminal offenses, civil remedies. In this specific space I would suggest to the committee and to congress that there is a particular need for congress to act.
▶ 0:48:30Dr. Leary: First because it is beyond dispute in the words of the supreme court that the government has a compelling interest to protect quote, the physical and psychological well-being of children, and less often quoted but equally important, the supreme court has noted that parents and others who have the primary responsibility for children's well-being, are entitled, entitled to the support of laws designed to aid in the discharge of that responsibility.
▶ 0:48:59Dr. Leary: But at this point, congress is part of the problem. Congress has not self corrected the ecosystem that exists, which provides no deterrents to tech platforms to engage in dangerous actions, and every incentive to do so. This committee is well aware and we have referenced the history of section 230.
▶ 0:49:21Dr. Leary: In 1996, congress took this public law action seriously, saw the threat coming and provided a narrow but important good samaritan protection for companies to engage in that kind of consent and deterrence structure. But we all know what has happened. A concentrated effort by these companies through courtrooms across america to change that.
▶ 0:49:44Dr. Leary: Not to the narrow protection but to what I refer to as a fecteau absolute immunity -- as a de facto absolutely immunity. 62.9 million images and videos and other files were reported to the cyber tip line last year. 540 6000 reports concerning online enticement, a 192% increase. Other aspects of the government have acted.
▶ 0:50:13Dr. Leary: The fbi, the surgeon general attorneys general across the country. Today it is my understanding that the alliance to counter online crime has released a report that ties section 230 directly to a number of particular harms including human trafficking, drug death, teenage self harm, csam. Knowing what we know, having this information before us, these trials have taken place.
▶ 0:50:42Dr. Leary: And it seems that these juries did not need more than a few weeks to do what congress has not done in two decades and over 41 hearings. They waded through the mountain of evidence, they listened to the experts, they read the internal documents. They allowed tech a full throttle defense and then swiftly and resolutely held these companies accountable.
▶ 0:51:06Dr. Leary: Congress should do the same by correcting section 230 and enacting other public laws to address the more specific threats to children that have emerged. Thank you, and I welcome your questions.
▶ 0:51:16Chair Blackburn: Ms. norring, you are recognized.
▶ 0:51:19Ms. Norring: Chair blackburn, ranking member klobuchar and members of the committee, thank you for the opportunity to testify. It is an honor and privilege to be before you today. I am a wife, mother, grandmother, advocate, founder of the devon norring foundation and cofounder of parents rise. I am proud of the work we do although I wish we didn't have to do it.
▶ 0:51:47Ms. Norring: Six years ago, my son died of fentanyl poisoning after step check him to a drug dealer. He was 19, he loved football, skateboarding, writing and creating his own music. He was his siblings' greatest protector. Prior to the start of the pandemic, he began suffering from migraines.
▶ 0:52:06Ms. Norring: When critical medical appointment or canceled during the lockdown, he turned to what he and many other american children thought was a safe solution. Snapchat. Snapchat connected him with a local drug dealer selling counterfeit pills. One pill ended his life while snapchat and the dealer continue selling long after he died. More like two years after he had died.
▶ 0:52:34Ms. Norring: In the spring of 2021, I self and other families who have lost children to snapchat -- including senior vp of global policy and platform operations. Jennifer stout told us that as parents we should have been monitoring our children better and because of section 230, we could not sue snapchat. At first we believed them.
▶ 0:52:57Ms. Norring: Then we watched as more kids died as snapchat still would not take down known predators and dealers and did not even warmed families of the harms happening on the platform, even as we beg them to do so. Section 230 is why these companies think they have the right to trade in our children's lives, to trespass in their homes and put digital nicotine in their products. For years we were ignored and countless more children died. Then things began to change. A facebook whistleblower came forward.
▶ 0:53:28Ms. Norring: Attorneys collected enough evidence to demand discovery, and these lawsuits are how we started to get the truth in their own words. The truth that we as parents already knew. I submitted examples of those unsealed records with my written testimony. Remember the years these custom means -- that these companies swore they did nothing wrong, but they did not design addicting products and that they were doing their best to protect children? None of that was true.
▶ 0:53:54Ms. Norring: One youtube document says quote, the vision, we aspire to create an app that is addictive. A meta employee wrote quote, instagram is a drug and we are basically pushers. Another -- internal documents reveal that meta was aware it was recommending children to known groomers, at nearly four times the rate it recommends children to non-groomer adults.
▶ 0:54:25Ms. Norring: How is that not dangerous by design? We are making progress but it should not take years long every time a corporate predator hurts a child. That is not justice. Tech company should not be allowed to continue to profit off of our misery and loss, especially now as we enter an even more dangerous era with ai.
▶ 0:54:45Ms. Norring: I just learned that while senator hawley is trying to make it clear that it is illegal for ai companies to allow the sexual expectation of children, ai companies are trying to get harmful laws passed like one in colorado that says ai companies can allow for sexual abuse of a child as long as they can show it was not technically feasible to avoid it. Of course it is the ai companies that get to determine what is and is not feasible.
▶ 0:55:19Ms. Norring: We are talking about the sexual abuse of children versus a product you get from app stores in the entertainment category that any state could excuse the sexual exploitation of children just because ai is involved is crazy to me. It's like letting a pedophile off the hook because he says he did his best to avoid hurting a child. These companies can design systems that don't hurt, abuse or manipulate children. They are choosing not to in the name of maximizing profits. This is what american families are up against.
▶ 0:55:47Ms. Norring: These companies hid behind section 230 immunity and now that we are making progress they are cleverly pushing bills that require them to do virtually nothing. While allowing the abuse and manipulation of our children to continue in the name of innovation. This is not innovation. It is abuse. My family and thousands like mine have been sounding the alarm for too long.
▶ 0:56:10Ms. Norring: Some of you have stood strongly with us and each day more lawmakers are finding the courage to look beyond political parties, to truly fight for american families, safety by design and corporate accountability. Now I am here today to talk -- to tell representatives it is time to choose. Congress must ensure that the senate version of kosa will not face preemption. Congress must pass strong common sense ai requirements like the guard act.
▶ 0:56:39Ms. Norring: Congress must pass the cooper davis and devon norring acts. And congress must absolutely reform section 230. Now that the court house doors are slowly opening, congress must ensure that they stay that way for our families. Tech companies don't fear regulatory fines. That is the cost of doing business.
▶ 0:57:05Ms. Norring: But they do fear accountability in court and they do fear discovery and they sure do fear the truth being exposed. I made a promise to to devon that his life would not be in vain. I have since extended that promised to the countless victims and families as I carry their loved ones with me on this painful journey that no mother should have to endure. This is not about politics.
▶ 0:57:32Ms. Norring: This is about whether our elected officials are willing to protect our children in a digital world that has evolved faster than our laws and I'm asking congress to stand with families and against the powerful companies that choose to harm american children by design, and then lie to congress and the world about what they have done. You can no longer claim both. Thank you and I look forward to your questions.
▶ 0:57:56Chair Blackburn: Thank you Ms. norring. Thank you each for your testimony. Ms. lanier, I want to start with you. We will each do a five minute round. So you sat in the second chair at the l.a. Trial, correct?
▶ 0:58:15Ms. Lanier: Yes.
▶ 0:58:16Chair Blackburn: You had a front row seat.
▶ 0:58:18Ms. Lanier: I sure did.
▶ 0:58:20Chair Blackburn: All right. I want to go into some of mark zuckerberg's testimony because I think one thing is very clear. He just flat out lied. And I think he did it over and over again.
▶ 0:58:41Chair Blackburn: So let's walk through a few of the examples because I think these examples show a pattern of willful disregard for the american public and for our children.
▶ 0:59:00Chair Blackburn: First, when he was before this committee in 2024, he said, and I am quoting here, the existing body of scientific work has not shown a cause or a link between using social media and young people having worse mental health outcomes.
▶ 0:59:22Chair Blackburn: The truth on this is that meta had a document called, and I quote again, non-negative effects of facebook and/or social media in general on teens. Meta's document even noted some of those negative effects, including increased sleep disruption, anxiety, body image pressure, and depression.
▶ 0:59:53Chair Blackburn: So despite what he said under oath, he knew this. He was aware of what their virtual products were doing to children. But they did it anyway. So he just lied to us when he came before the committee for sworn testimony, is that correct?
▶ 1:00:17Ms. Lanier: Thank you so much for the question. In our trial, we did find that statements zuckerberg had made to congress directly contradicted internal documents that had been top-secret until the court blasted them wide open.
▶ 1:00:37Ms. Lanier: One of the documents you listed is unfortunately one of hundreds that showed meta internally new that their platforms were causing tremendous mental health harm, including suicide to young children and young minds in america.
▶ 1:00:54Ms. Lanier: This is one example and unfortunately we confronted him time and time again and he was very well prepped and tried very hard to dance around it and use his words to avoid accountability. But the jury saw it our way, which was that he can't shy away from his own internal company documents, that showed one of the worst aspects of a teenage relationship on the platform was time spent on the platform.
▶ 1:01:26Ms. Lanier: It causes tremendous damage to teenagers.
▶ 1:01:27Chair Blackburn: I don't think he was that well prepped. I think he thought he was going to go in and win. And people called out this litany of lies that mark zuckerberg has been telling the american people. I want to go to another one. This was in 2024, congressional testimony. I'm quoting again, his statement.
▶ 1:01:58Chair Blackburn: Zuckerberg said and I quote, we don't allow people under age 13 on our service. Now when you compare that to the internal meta document that revealed -- they knew this. This is their research just so everyone is here. I doubt we have someone from meta in the room today who wants to defend meta.
▶ 1:02:24Chair Blackburn: Compare that with their document that shows that 4 million children under the age of 13 were on instagram alone, in 2015. That is 30% of all 10 to 12-year-olds in this country. In 2015! We know it is even more than that now.
▶ 1:02:52Chair Blackburn: I think it is also worth noting that meta wasn't even collecting birthdates until december of 2019. I think it is clear that Mr. zuckerberg's testimony was a blatant lie. Is that correct?
▶ 1:03:08Ranking Member Klobuchar: Our jury certainly stash --
▶ 1:03:13Ms. Lanier: Our ury certainly saw it that way. For current users who already had an account, instagram didn't even collect age data until 2021. Instagram's own internal folks said our lack of proactive action on detecting under 13 accounts undermines our credibility.
▶ 1:03:37Ms. Lanier: Another person wrote, the fact that we say we don't allow under 13s on our platform, yet have no way of enforcing it is just indefensible. And the jury agreed.
▶ 1:03:50Chair Blackburn: Thank you.
▶ 1:03:53Ranking Member Klobuchar: I will start with you Ms. norring. Thank you for being here today. When you lost your son, you said all of the hopes of dreams parents had for devon were erased in the blink of an eye and no parent should have to bury their child. Can you tell us more about the hopes and dreams you had for his future and what it feels like to be here once again today?
▶ 1:04:19Ms. Norring: When -- before devon died, he had dreams, goals. He wanted to go to california that summer to look into future schools for music production. I was nervous about him going all the way across the country, but those were his goals, his dreams. He also worked full-time for factory motor parts. He loved his job.
▶ 1:04:48Ms. Norring: As a mother, we have so many dreams. I wanted to see my son get married. My daughter is getting married soon. He will never see that. I have two grandbabies now. He will never know them. They only know him through pictures. I will never get to see him have grandchildren or what he could have potentially grown into.
▶ 1:05:15Ranking Member Klobuchar: Thank you. What policy changes would you like us to make?
▶ 1:05:19Ms. Norring: I would like to see immunity taken away from big tech from section 230. Definitely needs to be reformed. There needs to be accountability. Giving parents access to the courtrooms is the only way they will stop doing what they were -- what they are doing.
▶ 1:05:36Ranking Member Klobuchar: Thank you. Ms. lanier, thank you for explaining the harms and answering the questions that the chair posed. What were the biggest challenges you faced in that landmark case in holding meta and youtube accountable for how they design their platforms?
▶ 1:05:55Ms. Lanier: Thank you for the question. It was an interesting case, because as you've heard, these companies including meta targeted children to get them on the app, to keep them on the app as young as possible and as long as possible. Interestingly the biggest challenge we faced in the courtroom was the flipside.
▶ 1:06:19Ms. Lanier: The company wanted to target the children in the courtroom and the children's families and say it is not our fault, blame the parents. Even though our mom in our case did everything she could to try and protect her child.
▶ 1:06:32Ranking Member Klobuchar: Thank you. Professor, in your testimony you discussed how deterrence is one of the best methods of prevention. What do you believe is the way to ensure social media platforms are deterred from designing their platforms in this way?
▶ 1:06:49Dr. Leary: Thank you senator. We understand the litigation is a deterrent to be sure. But unfortunately in many situations it is after the harm. It has to happen in combination with public law, not only access to the courtroom which we've been fighting for and great attorneys have been able to make that happen, but also as these new technologies emerge, public laws designed and targeted.
▶ 1:07:19Dr. Leary: Things like the kids online safety act, the guard act, addressing simple specific actions. For too long -- let's put it in context. These numbers for the verdicts were tremendous but as the senator pointed out, more has been spent on lobbying to prevent these laws taking effect than at least one of these verdicts.
▶ 1:07:45Dr. Leary: I think both have to work together, just like every other industry in america that faces guidelines, deterrence if they act poorly, and has reasons to act appropriately.
▶ 1:08:00Ranking Member Klobuchar: The take it down act has taken effect in part already, but the part about having them take it down in 48 hours is going to take effect this coming week. We are going to be watching for it. What do you think is going to happen? What do you think we should do if they don't do it or what should you do?
▶ 1:08:23Ms. Lanier: I think the key for any legislation, is to allow the courtroom to be the last line of defense. Any protective measures that are going to move us toward child safety, I generally support of course. If there is any language, we need to be careful that it is not used as a way to avoid accountability in the courtroom, which is what the defendants and the companies in these cases try to do.
▶ 1:08:50Ranking Member Klobuchar: I've seen a few bills like that. Would you like to add anything professor?
▶ 1:08:55Dr. Leary: Just to say that we will be watching. I think what is essential is that not only have the platforms blamed the parents, but they have also acted like it is the bad guys who are the source of this in they have nothing to do with it. These bills like the ticket down act targeting the very platforms facilitating it, those kinds of laws are essential.
▶ 1:09:17Ranking Member Klobuchar: Thank you.
▶ 1:09:18Chair Blackburn: Senator cornyn.
▶ 1:09:21Sen. Cornyn: I assume that meta is appealing the decision?
▶ 1:09:27Ms. Lanier: Absolutely.
▶ 1:09:31Sen. Cornyn: What is the basis for the appeal?
▶ 1:09:32Ms. Lanier: Everything under the sun. Section 230, even though our case focused on features but not content. But somehow everything in their platform is content so nothing can be a feature. Section 230 is a massive one. The amount of rulings are judge had to make -- and she is so brilliant -- time and time again on section 230 would make anyone's head spin.
▶ 1:09:59Ms. Lanier: They also think that the verdict was too high, the punitives were too high which is interesting because we found them to be quite moderate against a multitrillion dollar company.
▶ 1:10:10Sen. Cornyn: So the theory upon which you pursued the case, was it common law or statutory?
▶ 1:10:17Ms. Lanier: A little bit of both. In california state court, we were suing under state law, theories of negligence, failure to warn, and trying to hold the company accountable that way.
▶ 1:10:32Sen. Cornyn: Professor leary, section 230 was enacted in 1996, probably protecting broadband services from being held liable for transmitting information. In other words, the content they provide. But there are some statutory exceptions that have already been carved out.
▶ 1:10:56Sen. Cornyn: For example, this immunity would not apply to suits brought under intellectual property law, criminal law, certain privacy laws, certain federal and state laws related to sex trafficking. So there has already been some carveouts in section 230.
▶ 1:11:21Sen. Cornyn: We've been trying to wrestle with that provision for a long time now without much success, but is there a more targeted, more surgical approach that you believe congress could take, that would advance the cause we are talking about today?
▶ 1:11:38Dr. Leary: Yes. The problem with carveouts, the technology changes so rapidly that a piecemeal carveout system is not going to work and there is historical precedent for it. Section 230 should be repealed with the exception of the good samaritan provision. That should stay in the law because that's really important. That explicitly does incentivize platforms to remove material, and they will not face litigation for that.
▶ 1:12:09Dr. Leary: That should remain in the law, but the other aspects I think should be removed.
▶ 1:12:14Sen. Cornyn: Ms. bogard, you say you will meet with the speaker of the house?
▶ 1:12:19Ms. Bogard: Yes sir.
▶ 1:12:21Sen. Cornyn: In addition to kosa , which I am proud to have been a sponsor of, we passed the enforce act, which was one that would ensure that offenders who use generative ai to produce or distribute csam or subject -- are subject to the same statutory penalties as those who create and distribute other
▶ 1:12:51Sen. Cornyn: Forms of child sexual abuse material. The enforce act passed the senate unanimously in december but has been parked in the house of representatives since that time. I hope you will bring that up to the speaker when you meet with him soon.
▶ 1:13:07Ms. Bogard: I will do my best.
▶ 1:13:11Sen. Cornyn: Thank you. One reason why congress essentially banned chinese ownership of tiktok was because social media can also be used as a threat to national security matters.
▶ 1:13:27Sen. Cornyn: I remember after the terrible attacks on october the seventh by hamas into israel, killing innocent israelis, that war ensued between israel and hamas and its sponsor, the iranian regime.
▶ 1:13:48Sen. Cornyn: But tiktok in particular, I believe was documented as essentially producing and pushing propaganda which was critical of israel for defending itself against that attack. I might ask you Ms. lanier, some of these companies are domiciled in the united states but obviously this is a global phenomenon.
▶ 1:14:14Sen. Cornyn: What concerns do you have about foreign or offshore ownership of some of these capabilities and our ability to regulate or deal with those?
▶ 1:14:24Ms. Lanier: The scary thing we saw is that these companies will only be as protective as the country forces them to be. As protective as the country forces them to be. No matter where they live they want to skirt around the rules as much as they possibly can and they will mince words and do as much as they can to make that happen.
▶ 1:14:49Ms. Lanier: When these companies now are headquartered in america, it gives our country more ability to regulate the people here, the people operating the platforms and that is really key. It is also key for all of you in power to be able to pass the sorts of protections we are talking about here today so america's children can be protected.
▶ 1:15:14Chair Blackburn: Senator durbin.
▶ 1:15:18Sen. Durbin: Thank you. Let me thank all of the witnesses for being here. I know some of you have been with us before. Thank you for making sure we hear the whole story, particularly those who have lost a loved one. Keeping their memory alive is part of that and you do so effectively. Two years ago we had a hearing in the senate judiciary committee.
▶ 1:15:46Sen. Durbin: I was the chair of the committee. We agreed on a bipartisan basis that we would issue subpoenas to the ceos of the major companies. A lot of people said you are wasting your time, they will never show up.
▶ 1:16:08Sen. Durbin: The ceos of discord, twitter, tictac, snapchat and meta appeared before us with sworn testimony. They are saying things that are still being quoted today that were not true. I remember when senator hawley and Mr. zuckerberg turned to the audience and he apologized.
▶ 1:16:33Sen. Durbin: The point I'm making is you have taken the time to come here and help us hear your side of the story. It is time for us on a bipartisan basis to call these ceos back and ask them what has happened in two years, talk about the losses that have occurred and asked them what they are doing. I do not expect straight answers, Ms. lanier, you did not get them either.
▶ 1:17:03Sen. Durbin: It is a way to inform the public the danger of what were talking about. Holding a person accountable under oath as to what they say is critical. Ms. lanier, you talked about what happened in court when were pursuing the case. I take it Mr. zuckerberg was a witness?
▶ 1:17:20Ms. Lanier: Absolutely.
▶ 1:17:21Sen. Durbin: How long was he on the stand?
▶ 1:17:24Ms. Lanier: We were restricted to one day because he is very busy.
▶ 1:17:29Sen. Durbin: I thank you for your efforts.
▶ 1:17:32Ms. Lanier: Thank you.
▶ 1:17:33Sen. Durbin: Let me ask you, what have you found with other parents who have gone through similar tragedies?
▶ 1:17:47Ms. Bogard: Talk about their losses? Absolutely. I have hundreds of parents reach out to me. We all advocate together. We work together to put education in schools. All of these parents have those losses that bridgette described so eloquently.
▶ 1:18:16Ms. Bogard: We will never see the dreams we had for our children. When I talk to these parents about their losses, it is the same across the board. He died seven years ago. I have had 104 parents reach out to me, saying their child died from the choking challenge. That is one harm, one challenge, 104 more kids have died. Some of them are here with us today.
▶ 1:18:48Ms. Bogard: We have to do something, agreeably, across the board. Something needs to be done. I do not think this can be fixed -- there is not one big fix for this issue. We need litigation. We need legislation. We need education. Putting legislation in place is such a huge first step that we can build upon.
▶ 1:19:14Sen. Durbin: Senator cornyn had to step away. Encouraging you and your meeting with the speaker to ask him to make a priority of this issue. It can make a difference. We need to do our part here. We have not taken this issue to the floor yet. We should. It is time for us to bring it to the floor and vote on it before we have another hearing to discuss it, let's do something about it on a bipartisan basis. This has been a bipartisan issue from the start.
▶ 1:19:46Sen. Durbin: I made the proposal before and I will make it again. My proposals are number 1, get it to the floor, get a vote and, secondly, call the ceos back under oath and hold them accountable again.
▶ 1:19:58Chair Blackburn: Thank you. I agree with you. It is time to take it to the floor and pass it. Senator moody.
▶ 1:20:08Sen. Moody: I was the attorney general of florida before and became a senator. The biggest challenge for me becoming an attorney general as a kid in school at these very fragile ages, I thought that would be the biggest challenge but it ended up being the biggest driver.
▶ 1:20:32Sen. Moody: Still dealing with the backpack issues while I was in a place to do something about it became one of my biggest drivers and inspirations and drove me every single day. We are living through a period. . Of technological change it was two generations to reshape society. How we all navigate that his parents. They now emerge almost overnight.
▶ 1:20:55Sen. Moody: Our children are on the front line of these changes before the wrists or even fully understood, especially by those of us dealing with it every day. Industries move faster than policymakers. By the time the public and even lawmakers fully understand the consequences, an entire generation of children have been irreversibly exposed to harm.
▶ 1:21:20Sen. Moody: It becomes more troubling when companies are not only aware of risk but actively designing products to maximize engagement, dependency and despicably profit. America's children are not piggy banks for big tech to shake down to satisfy the next quarterly earnings call. That is why as attorney general, the top enforcement officer in florida, I fought back in court to end these abusive practices. We brought suit.
▶ 1:21:50Sen. Moody: Specifically be argued meta intentionally designed teenagers compulsively engaged and addicted to its platforms. The response to that litigation, like florida's but I'm single across the nation, is incredibly disturbing.
▶ 1:22:08Sen. Moody: They try to get cases dismissed arguing that many of the features to keep children hooked on social media like recommended algorithms, insensate notifications implicate protected free speech and editorial functions under the first amendment and section 230. In other words they do not only want to keep doing these obviously harmful practices, they don't want anyone to even second-guess that and then they argue they have the legal right to continue harming kids.
▶ 1:22:40Sen. Moody: I want to repeat that -- they argue they are legally entitled to addict and harm our children and we can do nothing about it. They do not want parents -- they definitely do not want lawmakers thinking may be these platforms do not have the best interest of our children in mind. What has become abundantly clear is the private industry cannot be relied upon to prioritize the safety of children when those protections conflict with the bottom line.
▶ 1:23:11Sen. Moody: It is obvious we have to do something to pass common legislation because I keep hearing the word immunity -- let me just say I showed up today and it did not even hit me up to let look this table, and talk about emblematic moms on a mission. I mean, thank you for being here today.
▶ 1:23:33Sen. Moody: It breaks my heart that you are coming here after the tragic things that happen to your family, the loss of your sons, but thank you for standing up and speaking out and saying this cannot be. Our courts cannot be the cash out because we do not get it right here. I have heard terms like immunity. Stop saying section 230. They are using it as a shield, get out of jail free card, immunity.
▶ 1:24:04Sen. Moody: I heard joined us in the fight. If you are not going to join us in the fight, get out of our way. Stop being a shield. Any lawmaker that does not demand it be brought to the floor for a vote, they are standing in the way between us and protecting our kids. They are acting as a shield for these companies putting profit overprotection. I would like to know if you could tell us, Ms.
▶ 1:24:34Sen. Moody: Lanier first, many parents assume that people are getting to our children because the children are seeking out actively these things. I think we are hearing today -- imagine if the duty for care had been in place for the two years following the choking johnson. Imagine what the parents -- the choking challenge.
▶ 1:25:01Sen. Moody: Can you tell briefly to the committee how these algorithms are getting pushed to our kids as opposed to what many people are going out and seeking these things?
▶ 1:25:13Ms. Lanier: Thank you, senator moody. A good analogy is that one of the whistleblowers in our trial who has testified, he told the jury, imagine going into a bookstore and you pick up a book. And then you set it down and pick up another book. That is normal and you see different sections. What the algorithm does is so different and so creepy.
▶ 1:25:41Ms. Lanier: The algorithm is watching our children watching it. What happens is, a with an algorithm to go into a bookstore and pick up the first book I did has to do with rainbows, and the color blue, and what does that mean?
▶ 1:26:01Ms. Lanier: If you look at it for too long all of the sudden the boots behind it -- the books behind it in the bookstore changed and they tailor it to something it thinks you want to see because these algorithms are made it keep people on the apps, especially children. Children who have vulnerable brands do not have the self-regulation skills to get out once they are pulled in. The more.
▶ 1:26:33Ms. Lanier: Or shows what keeps them there and shows more. Even with the algorithm for showing them something scary or something to do not like. The algorithm is designed to keep them there. The algorithm has no morals, it does not care. It is made to keep them there and it is horrifying.
▶ 1:26:51Chair Blackburn: Thank you. Senator blumenthal.
▶ 1:26:56Sen. Blumenthal: Thank you for being here. This testimony is powerful. As I said yesterday in our mother's day rally --never doubt that you are making a difference. Your call for action, not chocolates or flowers for mother's day, was moving beyond words.
▶ 1:27:25Sen. Blumenthal: Let me just say, would you meet tomorrow or whenever with speaker johnson, don't just ask him for a law, ask him for kosa. The kids online safety act. Not the version that came out of the energy committee but the version that passed united states senate by a vote of 97-3.
▶ 1:27:57Sen. Blumenthal: That ain't happening that often in the united states senate. We will do it again in the united states senate. That is what we want them to pass in the house. Not the water down shadow legislation that they are thinking about doing because they are under the sway of the armies of lawyers and lobbyists that big tech has mustered against them. I sued the tobacco companies. I helped to lead that effort.
▶ 1:28:28Sen. Blumenthal: There are remarkable similarities. A product that kills people. Executives that deny their product doing any harm. Documents that show they know what their products are doing. And continued resistance to reform. The question is, what will the courts do about it?
▶ 1:28:53Sen. Blumenthal: In the case of tobacco we got not only money, but we got reforms in advertising and structure. Let me just come right to the point here -- let's focus on the kids online safety act because that is the remedy we need. We do not need to eliminate section 230.
▶ 1:29:17Sen. Blumenthal: I advocated eliminating section 230 literally -- probably close to 30 years ago. People said you were crazy. They are not saying you are crazy anymore because they see section 230 as having outlived its purpose. The kids online safety act is about product design.
▶ 1:29:45Sen. Blumenthal: If you buy a car that has a defective steering wheel, or you buy a space heater for your home that blows up when you turn it on, nobody says there is first amendment protection for it, because they are just expressing themselves. Or section 230 somehow protects them. This is about product design.
▶ 1:30:14Sen. Blumenthal: The kids online safety act does not involved eliminating section 230. Don't let speaker johnson or anyone else confuse you. You don't need to take on section 230, but we will -- we should -- and eventually we will win.
▶ 1:30:39Sen. Blumenthal: I want to call attention to some of your excellent cross-examination, Ms. lanier. You had mark zuckerberg and adam, the head of instagram.
▶ 1:30:52Ms. Lanier: Yes.
▶ 1:30:53Sen. Blumenthal: You asked mark zuckerberg whether instagram was addictive or if the company sought to maximize time spent on the app and he denied it.
▶ 1:31:07Ms. Lanier: Yes.
▶ 1:31:08Sen. Blumenthal: And that you showed him internal documents which demonstrated he was lying.
▶ 1:31:14Ms. Lanier: The amount of dancing that was done he would have thought zuckerberg was a ballroom dancer. [laughter]
▶ 1:31:22Sen. Blumenthal: And then you showed mosseri the same kinds of documents after he made the same denials. Documents that showed they were concerned they were continuing to keep kids so that they retain people on their sites --more eyeballs means more advertising revenue. He denied it as well, correct?
▶ 1:31:50Ms. Lanier: Right.
▶ 1:31:52Sen. Blumenthal: Maybe it would make sense for some enterprising law enforcer, like a district attorney, to look into whether they told the truth, or whether they failed to tell the truth under oath, correct?
▶ 1:32:07Ms. Lanier: It seems like a reasonable approach to be.
▶ 1:32:08Sen. Blumenthal: I agree with my colleague, senator durbin, that those executives ought to be called back before us and asked about that testimony under oath in california. I think we ought to give a lot of credit to some of the whistleblowers.
▶ 1:32:40Sen. Blumenthal: This spoke truth to power. She was one of the first. The documents are vital to these cases. I want to think senator blackburn for her leadership. Steadfast partners in this effort. It is an example of bipartisan cooperation. If anyone says there is no more bipartisan cooperation, here is an example of how it works. Likewise with senator hawley and I.
▶ 1:33:13Sen. Blumenthal: Senator britt has been a real advocate. Senator klobuchar has been a leader. Senator graham and I have had legislation on section 230. If you want to hear about the evils of section 230, talk to senator graham. Let me just end with this --I apologize, madam chair --you brought out the best of the united states senate.
▶ 1:33:42Sen. Blumenthal: I hope you will bring out the best in the united states congress. We need to has to act on the kids online safety act. Thank you.
▶ 1:33:50Chair Blackburn: Thank you are recognized.
▶ 1:33:55Sen. Britt: I want to begin where senator blumenthal left off. There has been no more tireless advocate for children online, their safety, their protection than you. Senator blackburn alongside senator blumenthal, the work you have done in this area, particularly kosa, I want to urge my colleagues to pass the senate version. America deserves better.
▶ 1:34:22Sen. Britt: To senator blumenthal's point, that means we have to work together and I hope the house will follow our lead on that. To the parents here, thank you for sharing your story, being so brave and courageous. Ms. bogard, you said you have testified over 14 times here.
▶ 1:34:46Sen. Britt: The last words you said to your son, "I love you," "I love you, too," I think every parent up here in visions that happening in their very home. We used lock our homes at night and thought we kept our children safe. Now we do that yet the enemy is in the palm of our kids' hands. Thank you for telling your story. Ms.
▶ 1:35:14Sen. Britt: Norring, thank you for telling yours. You bring out both what is happening online and the effects that covid had with the shutdown of the schools and all of the things that occurred. I appreciate you continuing to tell your story to all of the parents out there. You are what is pushing us. The story, honoring your children, that is what is making a difference.
▶ 1:35:45Sen. Britt: Senator hawley and I have talked about this countless numbers of times. You are the fuel of the moment that will actually get something done so thank you very much. I would like to start with you, Ms. lanier. Outstanding job. Wow. Thank you on behalf of all of us. As a mom of two teenagers, you got right in the fight and got real results. I think we have a lot of parents out there that do not know the harms of social media.
▶ 1:36:16Sen. Britt: Can you take a brief second --what you have uncovered, every parent needs to know --these are designed to addict our children. Will you talk briefly --if you were to have a 30-second psa to all parents in america, what would you want them to know about social media platforms?
▶ 1:36:35Ms. Lanier: What you just said hit the nail on the head. The access these companies have to our children is frightening. They are able to access them in the safety of a child's home and addict them to the platforms. What is so scary is that companies will tell parents and americans and all of you one thing, and their platforms are doing something completely different. They will say we have tools. We can help people.
▶ 1:37:05Sen. Britt: What you uncovered earlier, the earlier they get our children addicted, the more likely they are to be a lifetime user and the more likely they are to stay on. The longer they stay on, the what? The more money they make.
▶ 1:37:21Ms. Lanier: Exactly.
▶ 1:37:23Sen. Britt: They are putting people behind their profits. And in this case, these people are the most vulnerable and our greatest asset -- our children. It is disgusting. Professor graw leary, I would like to ask you that after the verdict she helped beautifully deliver, we had a lot of people say we do not eat anything. Now we see there is a remedy.
▶ 1:37:50Sen. Britt: I heard you say earlier that cannot just be a remedy, there has to be protection and prevention. Talk about what the pitfalls are with that line of thinking and what you think needs to be done.
▶ 1:38:00Dr. Leary: Yes, that is a dangerous thought -- all of you have alluded to it --decades of attorneys, states attorneys general trying to pierce the law in section 230, not being able to enforce their own state laws, not being able to hold a company liable for receiving child sexual abuse material, the list goes on. Creative and skilled attorneys like Ms.
▶ 1:38:27Dr. Leary: Lanier, the fact they managed to get through once or twice and hopefully more is not the solution. It is not the only solution. It is important, but why? 1 is the ability to be preventive. We see from new mexico there has been not only pushback from the defendants, that this state court judge does not have the power to do some of the things being asked of it, and the state court judge has expressed concern.
▶ 1:38:57Dr. Leary: I am not a legislator. The other limit is financial. $300 million is a lot of money to most people, it is not to a $400 billion company. The idea that will change the ecosystem and incentivize will not be the only answer. Both of these things --private rights of action and affirmative legislation together are what creates prevention.
▶ 1:39:22Sen. Britt: The time to act is now. I have follow-up questions and will submit them to the record. . Thank you for telling your story.
▶ 1:39:30Chair Blackburn: Senator coons.
▶ 1:39:35Sen. Coons: Thank you to all my colleagues that have worked so hard to advance the kids online safety act. We have a great group of cosponsors. None of them have reached the president's desl president's desk. I know this seems a hard thing to ask --keep at it.
▶ 1:39:58Sen. Coons: As a father of three kids who survive social media and made it to their late 20's, I had a heavy heart listening to your story about losing your son, devin, and losing your son, mason. Serving up connections to drug dealers or a choking challenge is protected behind a shield created by congress is something I have a hard time living with.
▶ 1:40:29Sen. Coons: Thank you for taking from your loss and turning it into progress. There are a lot of other parents here with us today. Could you please raise up the photos of your children that I see so many of you holding? Take a moment if you could look at the faces, senator klobuchar and senator blackburn, those of the faces that are the reminder of why you are here and why we should be here. Thank you for sharing from your losses for us.
▶ 1:41:02Sen. Coons: Senator blumenthal shared that as attorney general he was part of the litigation that took many, many years to get big tobacco to finally come forward -- not willingly --with the information about how harmful and dangerous their product was.
▶ 1:41:20Sen. Coons: What was striking about your testimony today was the massive gap between what the tech companies already know about the effects of their products, and how little the general public and parents know, and how hard it is to get that information. Ms. lanier, you know better than anybody, that discovery is hard.
▶ 1:41:41Sen. Coons: Through discovery, disclosures and whistleblowers, we have ultimately heard that meta knew through internal research that its products were harming children. Youtube saw they were specifically trying to make their product addictive. You have lived with the consequences. That gap will only get wider with generative ai.
▶ 1:42:13Sen. Coons: Getting access to internal studies, I have a bipartisan piece of legislation, the platform accountability and transparency act. We welcome more cosigners. It would allow academic research into the impact of social media platforms. That would unlock access to this information.
▶ 1:42:40Sen. Coons: For those who would like to improve cases, it is a reasonable next step so we can understand the contours of how much more damage is being done. One other piece of legislation I would like to suggest to my colleagues, senator grassley and I are cosigners of the ai whistleblower protection act. It is only through whistleblowers that you got the keys that unlocked discovery.
▶ 1:43:13Sen. Coons: Could you just say more about what struck you as shocking, whether you see value in legislatively creating mechanisms for research into the impact of social media.
▶ 1:43:26Ms. Lanier: Absolutely. The documents that were unlocked through the legal system were absolutely horrifying. One example is meta loves to say they have all these tools -- parental tools --that will help parents. An internal whistleblower who also testified here show that was not the case. These tools were not effective.
▶ 1:43:50Ms. Lanier: Internally, a critical memo had the employees internally at the company sang, why are these saying 30 tools? We do not have 30 tools. What are they talking about? Why are we doing cartwheels to avoid the thing we are seeing we are doing? That is literally what these internal documents set. I am supportive of transparency, I am all for accountability.
▶ 1:44:16Ms. Lanier: Any bill that will hold companies to account and put their money where their mouth is and say what they are saying internally and be honest with the american public I think is absolutely critical. I think the full frontal attack were legislatively these companies are being held accountable, but they also have the fear of the court room as the last line of defense is absolutely critical.
▶ 1:44:37Sen. Coons: U.n. Professor leary are probably more familiar with pleading standards in federal court. It often creates a catch 22 where you have to prove your claim in order to get the discovery, but you need the discovery to get the evidence to prove your claim.
▶ 1:44:58Sen. Coons: As a litigator or a study or or practitioner of law, would you agree the independent research and transparency required by the legislation I referenced would help ensure that parents get discovery in these critical times?
▶ 1:45:12Dr. Leary: Yes. I think what has happened since 1996 is in dual attack by tech. 1 is section 230 prevents litigation. They are not worried about losing cases, they are worried about discovery. There was no way to lift up the hood. The other attack is defeating all the legislation that is proposed,, etc.
▶ 1:45:40Dr. Leary: They do not want the hood lifted up so people can see what is happening. No other industry gets that -- get out of jail free card, to quote justice scalia.
▶ 1:45:53Sen. Coons: Or do not get into court free card.
▶ 1:46:00Ms. Lanier: I think that anything that pulls the hood and hold companies accountable is critical.
▶ 1:46:10Sen. Coons: Thank you for your testimony and your appearance.
▶ 1:46:13Chair Blackburn: Senator hawley.
▶ 1:46:15Sen. Hawley: Thank you for calling this hearing and for your terrific leadership over many years. I want to start by thanking all the parents in the room. A number have become personal friends of mine over the last year. I want to thank you for your courage. I want to thank you for being a bold moral witness. The verdicts in california and new mexico were indications for you. For years now we have been told it is really your fault.
▶ 1:46:47Sen. Hawley: You should have done this. You should have done that. If parents would do this, it would all be fine. Those were all lies. But companies never really believed it. Then you, as Ms. lanier exposed in court, they were at fault. It was always about the money in the profit but they were happy to blame you.
▶ 1:47:09Sen. Hawley: Finally, finally, you were able to get in front of an honest jury of 12 reasonable men and women, hard-working americans, they looked at that and agreed with you. They said you were right, your rights were violated, your children were destroyed and companies did it for profit. I am going to say to you, congratulations. This is just the beginning of the vindication you deserve.
▶ 1:47:36Sen. Hawley: I want to say those jury verdicts were not just indications of parents they were indictments of the U.S. congress. Two different juries in two different states listened to the evidence and said we have to hold these people accountable. This body has sat for years and listen to the same evidence -- there was nothing the jury heard that we did not know -- Ms. lanier did an extraordinary job.
▶ 1:48:06Sen. Hawley: There was evidence you could not look away from. This body knows all of that and get what has the united states congress done? Not a thing. Why is that? Same reason. Money. Money, money, money. I know we are not supposed to say it in my colleagues hate when I talk about it but it is just the truth. You might as well put a sign on the U.S.
▶ 1:48:30Sen. Hawley: Senate door that says "property of big tech." . The constitution does not say "we the corporations," it says "we the people." this body needs to do something. It is time. I have heard the speeches, I have seen it all.
▶ 1:48:58Sen. Hawley: The same people go and vote "no" on the floor and kill bills behind the scene. I hope Ms. lanier your incredible victory in court will be a watershed moment. Not just in the courtroom but in the halls of congress, on the floor of the senate and the floor of the house. It is time for this body to vote on the legislation this committee has passed unanimously. We have passed laws that would give victims the right to get into court, as your clients did, Ms. lanier.
▶ 1:49:29Sen. Hawley: It is time for this body to vote on it. We have voted to stop chatbots from preying on our children. It is time for the senate to pass it. There are no more excuses were tearing. None of them. Your victories, Ms. lanier, showed that. Congratulations on your tremendous work. You stated your opening statement -- I'm paraphrasing -- the jury trial was made for this moment. Can you explain what you meant by that?
▶ 1:49:59Sen. Hawley: I think that was such a key point.
▶ 1:50:00Ms. Lanier: Thank you, senator hawley. The jury trial is meant to hold people accountable for wrongdoing and tell corporations you jocular free pass for hurting children -- and to tell corporations you do not get a free pass for hurting children. Hear all the arguments in front of america and said this is not ok.
▶ 1:50:29Ms. Lanier: You cannot treat our children this way. It was so absolutely critical to get the voice of the american people and to see what our jury system is built to do is working. It also takes people like you to make sure that things are passed on all different fronts to hold big tech accountable.
▶ 1:50:51Sen. Hawley: Why is it that these corporations fear the jury trial so much? They fought you truth and nail, they raised section 230 as a defense. They raised it nonetheless. Why do you think they fear juries so much?
▶ 1:51:09Ms. Lanier: Their document say what we are doing is indefensible. That is a quote. They take a chapter out of the big tobacco playbook and they try to hide and they tried to muddy the waters and the american people see through it.
▶ 1:51:26Sen. Hawley: How important is it to give every victim, every parent -- in this audience and across america -- access to a fair jury trial?
▶ 1:51:36Ms. Lanier: People deserve their day in court. Our founding fathers made our system that way.
▶ 1:51:42Sen. Hawley: In this america's 250th birthday, we cannot do but it did to go back to the framers' wisdom. There is nothing better the U.S. congress could do this year for every parent in america than to give the right to every parent in america to get into court against these companies and have your day in court. It is a foundational right for all americans. It has been denied to the american people for decades. It is time to right that wrong.
▶ 1:52:15Sen. Padilla: Thank you. I want to thank all of the witnesses for testifying today. Special appreciation to Ms. bogard and Ms. norring as parents, given what you have lived through, to muster up the courage just to be here today, channeling that grief that you have felt and lived, and to advocacy, speaks volumes of your
▶ 1:52:47Sen. Padilla: Courage and character. As members of congress we have an obligation to protect children and teenagers online. As part of that responsibility, I believe we have to not just listen about the experiences for those strong enough and willing to share, but have an informed action. Actual tangible steps we can take to help protect children, families, our constituents. Ms.
▶ 1:53:16Sen. Padilla: Norring, you have learned about snapchat's design. What have you learned about the design you wish you would have known about before?
▶ 1:53:30Ms. Norring: Everything. I mean, everything. It is shocking. I had no idea you could so freely go on to their app, their platform and sell drugs. We did not know that his parents. When we get that access to our children, we knew about sexual predators and bullies. They hid from us everything else that they do behind closed doors.
▶ 1:54:02Ms. Norring: I missed that important conversation with my son, because we did not know. We did not know about the algorithms, the incessant scrolling. I go into schools and talk to students and bring up the social media aspect and give them tools to protect themselves. One of the schools I went to just recently, one of the teachers asked them to plot their phones and give us the average screen time they had been on.
▶ 1:54:31Ms. Norring: This was a thursday -- sunday to thursday, the average kids were spending was 32 hours in those few days.
▶ 1:54:39Sen. Padilla: That is huge. Companies will say we offered a disclaimer, disclosed our policies, it is part of giving consent. There is obviously huge room for improvement.
▶ 1:54:53Ms. Norring: They told us in the meeting we had behind closed doors in 2021, did you know we have the reporting tool? No, we did not know that. We know that now. Senator padilla, in all respect, I have reported I do not know how many drug dealers on that app, and some of those reports get ignored. Some of those do not violate our platform's protection, whatever.
▶ 1:55:25Ms. Norring: These dealers go on, business as usual. After devin died, we lost six more teenagers.
▶ 1:55:35Sen. Padilla: I have a question for Ms. bogard. He spoke about parental controls. You shed some light on what does not work. What type of control mechanisms do you think could work for woodwork that you wish were in place prior to your son's death?
▶ 1:55:58Ms. Bogard: Thank you for the question. I think our best thing we can do is educate kids, parents, get some legislation in place. As far as the tools, that will rely highly on the transparency of. These companies. The specific tools that would need to be in place, I think that it will not really matter if we do not have the transparency.
▶ 1:56:30Ms. Bogard: The kids online safety act would require them to be transparent. That is where we'll make our biggest headway with this. Getting them to have some transparency and put the safety features in place, like turning off the auto scroll, and turning on safety features by default for kids. Turning on the strongest safety features. Things like that will make a difference. Obviously we know they will not self regulate and do that.
▶ 1:56:59Ms. Bogard: Again, until we get this legislation in place that will require them to do that, we will continue losing our children.
▶ 1:57:07Sen. Padilla: Designing the platform so access to those security settings are easy to find and not hidden so you have to search for them. Last question for professor leary, in what ways does social media present unique threats to children and parents compared to most other threats and challenges that children face every day?
▶ 1:57:36Dr. Leary: I think all of the features that many folks on the panel have talked about, it is insidious, it is everywhere, and parents cannot control it. There is some research suggests quite the opposite of what tech says. Sometimes it is the most involved parents have been the most difficult time combating these social media companies.
▶ 1:58:04Dr. Leary: They are seeing the effects of their children so they are engaged in this. Another aspect of the social media that makes it very troubling is the power differential between these companies. It is particularly pernicious with these companies versus some other things. The other thing I would like to add, in the physical world is illegal.
▶ 1:58:36Dr. Leary: Aged in knowing distribution remain free of responsibility.
▶ 1:58:40Sen. Padilla: Thank you all.
▶ 1:58:43Sen. Graham: Thank you all. Senator blackburn, you have been a champion on this. I appreciate what you have done to shine a light on this. Let's build on what you said, Ms. leary. If someone called you up on the phone and try to sell you drugs, you could be charged, right?
▶ 1:59:05Dr. Leary: Yes.
▶ 1:59:07Sen. Graham: If you went on the internet and on a social media site you might not be charged?
▶ 1:59:15Dr. Leary: It would be very challenging to do that. Technically under federal law you might be able to be charged but the civil liability and --
▶ 1:59:24Sen. Graham: A lot of the parents here, their kids got drugs that were laced with fentanyl. And said, here is 10 pills, give me $10, we would not even be talking about it. They would be prosecuted.
▶ 1:59:44Dr. Leary: Yes, indeed.
▶ 1:59:47Sen. Graham: You do something on a social media site, nothing happens to you?
▶ 1:59:51Dr. Leary: It appears that if the case.
▶ 1:59:54Sen. Graham: Isn't that kind of stupid? [laughter] I have been dealing with this for a while. I have an idea. Senator blackburn, why don't we write a letter to senator schumer and thune and said we would like a social media week.
▶ 2:00:14Sen. Graham: What we can do during that week is bring the kids online safety act and any other good idea we have and let the american people know we will actually vote. Are you familiar with sunsetting section 230?
▶ 2:00:34Ms. Lanier: I would love if it was gone.
▶ 2:00:38Sen. Graham: To the victimssen.
▶ 2:00:39Graham: , I want to make us a vote. If we have to a vote we would probably win. The idea of sitting a year from now or two years from now, section 230 goes away and we can replace it with something better for the consumer. I think the court room is a great anecdote. There may be a regulatory system we can come up with and have a combination of solutions. Does that make sense?
▶ 2:01:08Dr. Leary: It does.
▶ 2:01:10Sen. Graham: If you buy a car and it blows up and kills your family, you can sue. Literally if someone calls you on the phone, sextoring your child, send photos and give me $10,000, they would go to jail. If you do it on a social media site, section 230 kicks in. It seems bizarre to me.
▶ 2:01:41Sen. Graham: If you are doing things that harm people, does that make sense?
▶ 2:01:46Ms. Lanier: Absolutely. The machine is built to hardwire addiction.
▶ 2:01:53Sen. Graham: I would say this. Do you all agree this can be a dangerous product? This iphone? There is stuff on this phone -- is there any regulation that you know of? Is there any regulatory body that you know that deals with this social media problem? That has the authority to shut a site down?
▶ 2:02:21Dr. Leary: I believe there might be some arguments.
▶ 2:02:24Sen. Graham: Has any site ever been shut down by anybody? Don't you think we would know about it? Don't you think it would make news? Some regulatory bodies shut some site down?
▶ 2:02:46Ms. Lanier: Especially if it was a social media platforms.
▶ 2:02:51Sen. Graham: Shut down because it was sextorting kids, selling fentanyl. I think the reason we do not know about it is because it does not exist. Congress created this problem.
▶ 2:03:12Dr. Leary: Yes, sir.
▶ 2:03:13Sen. Graham: Congress can fix it if we choose to. I choose to. I urge we sign a letter and give all of our colleagues a chance to petition the leaders of the senate to have a week, two weeks, whatever, time to debate this, good ideas that have been floundering to go to someplace and die.
▶ 2:03:42Sen. Graham: There is something full of dead ideas when it comes to social media. I do believe the best way to break through his transparency, having a debate and make people vote. To all of the victims out there, I will get this letter going. Get behind it, do not take no for an answer.
▶ 2:04:06Sen. Graham: Push people to insist where we have a week on the floor to talk about different ideas to protect your families, to make sure what happened to your family does not happen to anybody else. Of all the problems in america -- there are a ton of them -- I cannot think of one were corrosive to the fabric of american society than this. They can care less if you are liberal, conservative, libertarian or vegetarian, eyeballs create money.
▶ 2:04:36Sen. Graham: Every eyeball is attached to a human being. The things that our kids are exposed to, it is shocking you cannot sue for exposing them to it. It is shocking you cannot go to court for what happened to their two kids. It is shocking you can do this to a family and you are shut out of a courtroom. There is no agency in washington. I would like to complain and ask you -- there is nothing.
▶ 2:05:06Sen. Graham: We are completely naked as consumers. I believe 2026 is the year to do this. President trump is behind it. There are too many good ideas that do not go anywhere. Senator blackburn, thank you. What we need to do is push our leadership on both sides of the aisle to dedicate some time for the senate. The day that happens, the date will break. God bless you all.
▶ 2:05:30Chair Blackburn: Thank you. To close us out, I have a couple more questions. Ms. lanier, I will come back to you because I want to revisit some of mark zuckerberg's testimony one more time. Let's go back to 2020, when he was before us for a congressional hearing. We were talking about addictive products.
▶ 2:06:00Chair Blackburn: His comment was, we certainly do not want our products to be addictive. I don't think the company should be optimizing to just encourage people to spend as much time as possible on that. Now, that is -- that was his statement that he publicly gave under oath in that hearing.
▶ 2:06:29Chair Blackburn: In the evidence that you brought forward at trial showed that he was lying. And they had the information. He knew better. He knew he was lying. It was intentional.
▶ 2:06:49Chair Blackburn: His own email that he sent out on company goals lists time spent increases by 12%. Now, that time spent -- Ms. norring, you were talking about the number of hours a child spent -- they have had a goal for increasing time spent.
▶ 2:07:17Chair Blackburn: Now, his time spent goal of 12% was in 2017, correct?
▶ 2:07:23Ms. Lanier: It was in 2016.
▶ 2:07:26Chair Blackburn: Mark has decided the top priority for the company in 2017 is total team time spent.
▶ 2:07:36Ms. Lanier: Really it is every year. The company goal is total teen time spent. He had multiple documents he was confronted with on cross-examination. He said our goal is not to increase teen time spent. We would show him where literally --
▶ 2:07:56Chair Blackburn: That was into 2026, they still had goals for teen time spent.
▶ 2:08:03Ms. Lanier: Absolutely. Our latest documents were a little bit before that because of the discovery cut off. Our latest document showed year after year after year and a milestone and metric for success at meta was to grow teen time spent as much as possible.
▶ 2:08:24Chair Blackburn: Every year they wanted to make the product a little bit more addictive.
▶ 2:08:28Ms. Lanier: Absolutely.
▶ 2:08:30Chair Blackburn: Ms. bogard, you were in that hearing in 2020 when he get that testimony. You were also in the courtroom. How did you feel knowing that you have been through this and then you were in the courtroom? Talk to us about that moment.
▶ 2:08:51Ms. Bogard: Not surprised, of course. But still, very disappointing that someone, anyone, could live repeatedly, and continue to do business status quo, putting profit before the lives of our children. It was very hard to contain your emotions in both of those settings.
▶ 2:09:19Ms. Bogard: All of the parents, we all felt the same. It was very hard to listen to that.
▶ 2:09:23Chair Blackburn: I am sure it is. You all live this every single day. We are just so grateful for your persistence. You give strength to legislators.
▶ 2:09:40Chair Blackburn: The fact that you parents and advocates have continued to come forward is why we have 76 cosponsors on kosa here in the senate. Our goal is to get it across the finish line. We thank you very much for the consistency of your efforts in helping us with this.
▶ 2:10:12Chair Blackburn: This is concluding or hearing for the date, but thank you all. All the parents who are here in the room. For my colleagues, I will remind you the questions for the record can be submitted for the next seven days. You have heard several members mentioned they will have some of those for you. A prompt response is appreciated. At this time, the subcommittee is adjourned.
▶ 2:10:40Chair Blackburn: [captioning performed by the national captioning institute, which is responsible for its caption content and accuracy. Visit ncicap.org]