▶ 0:25:23Chair Schmitt: We will call the hearing to order. Today's topic is protecting denaturalization and its constitutional limits. This hearing will examine the legal and policy issues surrounding denaturalization and why it is a critical safeguard as well as the security of american society.
▶ 0:25:48Chair Schmitt: We will make our opening statements, the ranking member and myself and then we will introduce our witnesses, swear them in and then hear the testimony before proceeding to five minute rounds of questioning. American citizenship is sacred. It is the highest pacific honor this country can give. It carries rights, duties, allegiance, inheritance and obligation.
▶ 0:26:13Chair Schmitt: It means joining the american people and accepting response ability for the future of the nation -- spun's ability -- responsibility for the future of the nation. -- and move on. The approach desecrates american citizenship, it insults every immigrant who came here honestly, follow the law, learned our history and took the oath in good faith.
▶ 0:26:40Chair Schmitt: The constitution gives congress the power to establish a uniform rule for naturalization. Applicants must show good moral character and be attached to the principles of the constitution. They must be well disposed to the good order and happiness of the united states.
▶ 0:27:03Chair Schmitt: When someone lies during that process, concealed material facts, hides criminal conduct, masks allegiance to a foreign enemy or swears loyalty with mental reservation, he commits fraud against the united states and the american people. Fraud has desecrated american citizenship. But that desecration did not happen overnight. It built up over decades of lax enforcement, cheapened standards and political cowards.
▶ 0:27:31Chair Schmitt: Re-consecrating citizenship requires a remedy strong enough to remove those who abuse it. That is called denaturalization. Denaturalization canceled citizenship that should never have been granted. It enforces the conditions congress placed on naturalization and protects the american people from those who abused our generosity and turned the oath into a scam. The supreme court has made the rule clear.
▶ 0:27:57Chair Schmitt: No alien has the right to naturalization unless every statutory requirement is met. Citizenship obtained by fraud is stolen status, stolen status should be revoked. Right now across the country we are seeing the consequences of a broken naturalization system that loosely granted citizenship and then refused to revoke it from those who stole it.
▶ 0:28:21Chair Schmitt: The doj and dhs review found that naturalized citizens made up more than 25% of the international terrorism convictions from september 11 2001 to 2016. Since then the pattern has continued. Terrorism crimes, concealed sex offenses, health care fraud, drug trafficking, espionage and massive fraud against government programs.
▶ 0:28:46Chair Schmitt: In minnesota, many of those involved in the feeding our future scandal that stole a quarter billion dollars from the federally funded children's nutrition program were naturalized citizens. Money meant to feed needy children was spent on luxury goods, vacations, real estate or sent overseas. It was stolen. That crime attacked more than the public trust.
▶ 0:29:11Chair Schmitt: It attacked the public trust and the sacred trust between the nation's citizens and their government. When someone nationalizes and then joyce's isis or supports al qaeda or affiliates with other terrorist organizations, spies for a foreign intelligence service, joins a cartel or steals millions from american taxpayers, all recent examples of crimes committed by newly naturalized citizens stop prosecutors should ask the
▶ 0:29:41Chair Schmitt: Obvious question. Why did the person concealed that information and what did they conceal? The fraud likely began long before the battlefield. If a man swears attachment to the constitution and then spies for a foreign country, that betrayal likely began before the indictment. If a man claims good moral character and then steals millions from the american people, the light may have been present at naturalization.
▶ 0:30:09Chair Schmitt: The trump administration is right to revive denaturalization . The department of justice must bring these cases. Uscis should continue referring people. We need a serious nationwide denaturalization effort against fraudsters, felons, terrorists, spies and anyone who obtained american citizenship by deceit.
▶ 0:30:41Chair Schmitt: If the government never revokes citizenship obtained by fraud, the oath becomes the at her. The -- becomes theater. The american citizen becomes a sucker in his own country. That is why I introduced the stop citizenship abuse and miss it -- and misrepresentation act, the scam act. If you scam the united states get citizenship, you should lose it. And we have every right to revoke it.
▶ 0:31:08Chair Schmitt: The scam act gives the government stronger tools when serious conduct shortly after naturalization reveals the truth that was hidden during the process. Major fraud against government programs and affiliation with foreign terrorist organizations, aggravated felonies and espionage.
▶ 0:31:33Chair Schmitt: Those acts should serve as powerful evidence that the person lacked good moral character, lacked attachment to the constitution or lacked a disposition to the good order and happiness of the united states when they became a citizen. The scam act also fixes a legal absurdity. Even after someone is denaturalized, courts can treat the crimes committed during the fraudulent citizenship as if they do not count for deportation. This makes no sense.
▶ 0:32:02Chair Schmitt: When citizenship is revoked, because it was unlawfully obtained, the law should permit deportation. Prison alone cannot protect the american people if the terrorist, spy or fraudster remains here after release. A recent case demonstrates the need to expand our denaturalize laws and ensure deportation. In 2016 a naturalized citizen was convicted on terrorism charges for trying to carry out a terrorist attack crisis will stop he was sent to prison but was released early in 2024.
▶ 0:32:33Chair Schmitt: He was not denaturalized and he was not deported. After his release earlier this year, he committed a terrorist attack at an american university, attacking an rotc classroom and killing someone. That terrorists should not have been allowed to remain a citizen in the united states. If he had been denaturalized and deported, that horrific attack would have been prevented.
▶ 0:33:01Chair Schmitt: Fraudsters should be afraid, terrorists should be afraid, spies should be afraid. Anyone who lied themselves into this country to obtain citizenship should be afraid. The american people are tired of a government that treats their citizenship as cheap, their laws is optional and their generosity as an invitation to be exploited. This subcommittee will defend the value of american citizenship. We will support the trump administration's denaturalization efforts.
▶ 0:33:32Chair Schmitt: We will fight fraud in all forms, we will fight to pass the scam act. Denaturalization is citizenship safeguard whose time has come. I will turn it over to the ranking member.
▶ 0:33:43Ranking Member Welch: Thank you Mr. chairman and I want to thank our witnesses for being here. Today is our third hearing on quote, protecting american citizenship. All of them have focused on the topic of immigration and today's topic is denaturalization of non-native born citizens. I will get to that in a moment. But first I want to make a point. At what we have not looked at.
▶ 0:34:11Ranking Member Welch: The administration has a very radical goal, mass deportation of immigrants from our country. This includes dreamers, daca recipients, folks who are here legally and I oppose that. It is doing damage to our country.
▶ 0:34:31Ranking Member Welch: As part of that effort, we have seen the abusive lengths this administration is willing to go to, the violence in minnesota has receded, but the cruelty of these policies to create fear and anxiety include targeting of legal immigrants. The trump administration has violently clamped down on americans exercising their constitutional rights.
▶ 0:34:58Ranking Member Welch: In minnesota we saw the killing of two people, a 30 seven-year-old nurse and a 37-year-old mother. Immigration agents have detained U.S. citizens including a vermonter, a respected principal, a school superintendent who was pulled out of an airport and told quote, you have no rights here. The department of homeland security has authorized immigration agents to enter the homes of americans without a judicial warrant.
▶ 0:35:28Ranking Member Welch: Immigrants have been deported without due process, sometimes in defiance of federal court orders prohibiting deportation. The white house has turned every bureaucratic lever they have in their considerable power, cutting off immigrants from jobs, financial services, medical care, tax credits and daycare.
▶ 0:35:54Ranking Member Welch: There was an immigrant from el salvador, legally in this country, providing janitorial services at the boston airport, a job she revered. It gave her life dignity and she did it well. Last year the administration had her fired, declaring that because of her immigration status, she could not carry out the work she had done for almost three decades. This is all part of a radical crusade against immigration.
▶ 0:36:24Ranking Member Welch: It is not about securing the border, it's not about deporting criminals. It's about going after people including folks here legally and I absolutely oppose it. Mr. chairman, yesterday my granddaughter graduated from montgomery blair high school. And I attended. There were 2000 kids in her class. Many of the speakers were first-generation graduates of high school.
▶ 0:36:52Ranking Member Welch: The pride of the parents, seeing their kids graduate, and the words of these kids where they spoke about values, they spoke about a life of purpose, they spoke about commitment to community, about friendship. We should be honoring and protecting those kids who are our future and putting our energies into protecting them and not just focusing on these other issues that are about implementation of this policy.
▶ 0:37:21Ranking Member Welch: This is too important for the future of our country and it is very important to the president -- present of our country that we treat legally entitled people with dignity. Turning to today's topic, denaturalization, I want to be clear. I agree, I agree with you, that we should not allow people to abuse our immigration system. People should not be able to deceive the government and acquire citizenship by lying. We should be tough on fraud.
▶ 0:37:53Ranking Member Welch: But expanding denaturalization does not further that goal in this administration. It is intended to create fear in our communities, to prevent people who are legally here from showing up to school, working or seeing doctors. Some of those kids had family members who were picked up. Even though they were here legally.
▶ 0:38:17Ranking Member Welch: Under current law, naturalized citizenship can be revoked if it was procured illegally or by concealment or of material -- willful misrepresentation. So I want to be clear I support that. But I don't agree that naturalized citizens should be punished for something that happens after they become a citizen, that is not just my view but the view of the supreme court.
▶ 0:38:46Ranking Member Welch: We do not have to reach far back into our nation's history to see a familiar cycle is unfolding. Denaturalization efforts have been clustered around both world wars and the red scare and under the guise of national security, has been abused as some folks abuse the immigration system, targeting people for their associations, for their speech and political beliefs. It has been abused in our history time and again.
▶ 0:39:17Ranking Member Welch: American citizenship is precious. Those kids that I saw at that high school believed that. They are committed to making this a better country, to making ours a better community. But broadening the administration's authority to strip citizenship would put 24 point 5 million naturalized americans at risk.
▶ 0:39:42Ranking Member Welch: In april I attended a naturalization ceremony in vermont and a lot of my colleagues have done that in their states and it is one of the most inspiring experiences that we can have, to see a person who, by choice, has undertaken the duties and responsibilities of citizenship. They see it as a responsibility and they put in years of hard work to achieve that status.
▶ 0:40:09Ranking Member Welch: So yes, where there is fraud, where there is lying, and that is the basis upon which someone received citizenship, take it away. But not use this process to add to the attack on people, so many of whom are here legally and have the aspirations of those young kids, graduates of high school that I met yesterday. I yield back.
▶ 0:40:37Chair Schmitt: Senator durbin.
▶ 0:40:40Sen. Durbin: It was my honor to chair the subcommittee for a number of years. I tried to focus on issues related to the constitution, fundamental civil and human rights. It is beyond me that with all the challenges facing america, we are talking about denaturalization of citizens. Since the president took office last year, he and his supporters have used every available tool at their disposal to target their political opponents.
▶ 0:41:12Sen. Durbin: Last week the department of homeland security secretary even threatened, despite the objections of the transportation secretary, to punish the so-called sanctuary jurisdictions by targeting their airports. The president and supporters have repeatedly used threats of denaturalization to kill political speech and intimidate naturalized americans who dare to challenge trump policies.
▶ 0:41:40Sen. Durbin: In my office in the capital, on the credenza behind my desk is a grain document that is a naturalization certificate, my mother's. She came to the united states at the age of two. After she was married and had two children she decided to become a citizen of the united states. I have her naturalization certificate that she handed to me before she passed away.
▶ 0:42:09Sen. Durbin: I am proud of that, proud of the fact that I am the son of a proud immigrant. She is no longer with us and can therefore not be threatened by anything from this hearing, but the thought of taking something so precious away from her because of her political views does not sound like the america she was trying to be part of. In a thanksgiving post, the president said denaturalized migrants who undermined domestic tranquility.
▶ 0:42:41Sen. Durbin: If you are a student of the constitution, look at that as a standard for removing citizenship. This spring, a maga congressman introduced the so-called mamdani act which aims to remove naturalized citizens for being in support of socialism. Does it sound familiar?
▶ 0:43:09Sen. Durbin: These efforts harken back to joe mccarthy from wisconsin, when naturalization was used as a tool to silence political dissidents. For the young people in the audience, I hope you study that era, the 1950's. Republican senator from the state of wisconsin decided to start looking for those people who just might be communists in the united states government.
▶ 0:43:34Sen. Durbin: He had hearing after hearing and at the end of the day, there were disastrous results that hurt a lot of innocent people. There was talk of denaturalize there was talk of denaturalizing those people who turned out to be communists. Among them was harry bridges, a renowned australian born -- accused of being a communist. During that mccarthy era, he faced a relentless campaign to revoke his citizenship.
▶ 0:44:02Sen. Durbin: But the supreme court ruled in bridges favor not once, but twice. In fact the court has repeatedly held that stripping citizenship based on an individual's views over expressions quote, would run counter to our traditions. The court placed a high burden on denaturalization to prevent the types of abuses we saw during the mccarthy era.
▶ 0:44:27Sen. Durbin: Relying on the 14th amendment, the supreme court found that congress does not have the power to take away any americans citizenship unless that citizenship was unlawfully procured. It has also held that all americans are on equal footing in the eyes of the law. With the exception of eligibility for the presidency. Naturalized citizens are no different than those who are born here.
▶ 0:44:57Sen. Durbin: -- when it does pursue it, it goes after war criminals and individuals who committed serious naturalization fraud. Even under the first trump administration, only 160 people in four years were denaturalize d. So why hold a hearing to discuss this rare process? The title of this hearing says it all. Quote, protecting american citizenship.
▶ 0:45:23Sen. Durbin: Should american citizenship be as the president and his faithful have suggested, about fealty to one man and his ideology or should it be about an individual belief in our country and our constitution? I believe the latter. Just look at daca recipients and dreamers. They grew up pledging allegiance to our flag and serving our country each day as doctors, teachers and firefighters. They are americans in every way.
▶ 0:45:56Sen. Durbin: This administration is doing everything possible to stop hard-working immigrants, even those who follow every rule, from securing citizenship. Last week the administration issued a new policy that would force most applicants to go abroad to get a green card. After outcry from around the country, dhs claimed to rollback this policy, saying applicants who quote, benefit the national interest and provide economic benefits would not be affected.
▶ 0:46:25Sen. Durbin: The administration has not clarified what this means that we can take an educated guess. Look at the refugee program. The president has barred all refugees from coming to the united states except those whose admission is deemed in the national interest. The only refugees the trump administration has decided are qualified so far? White africanners.
▶ 0:46:51Sen. Durbin: Targeting daca holders, new barriers to the green card and ending the refugee program is devastating immigrants and american communities and deserves our attention. Denaturalization, just what decade are we talking about?
▶ 0:47:06Chair Schmitt: At this point I will introduce the majority witnesses and then senator welch will introduce the minority witness. Ken cuccinelli is here. Senior fellow at the center for renewing america. Mr. cuccinelli has been a trial appellate litigator. He has served in many key roles including as virginia's attorney general and the acting director of uscis and the acting director for the department of homeland security. Mr.
▶ 0:47:35Chair Schmitt: Cuccinelli serves as a senior fellow for immigration and homeland security at the center for renewing america, where he conducts research and writes on matters related to his experience addressing immigration and protecting our homeland. Mr. george fishman is a senior legal fellow at the center for immigration studies where his scholarship focuses on these issues.
▶ 0:48:00Chair Schmitt: Previously he served as deputy general counsel at the department of homeland security, acting chief counsel at uscis, advisor to the president in the office of american innovation and as special counsel to the house homeland security committee. Mr. fishman also spent two decades as chief counsel for the U.S. house judiciary committee subcommittee with jurisdiction over immigration. He is one of the nation's top denaturalization scholars.
▶ 0:48:27Ranking Member Welch: And we have professor peter spiro. -- serves on the council on foreign relations and he served on the open society institute at the
▶ 0:48:57Ranking Member Welch: European your -- european university institute. This is a special note to me, a clerk for justice souter from new hampshire. An outstanding member of the judiciary. He served as director of democracy with the staff of the national security council. As a resident associate at the carnegie endowment for international peace.
▶ 0:49:28Ranking Member Welch: Professor spiro holds multiple degrees.
▶ 0:49:36Chair Schmitt: Please stand and raise your right hand. Do you swear that the testimony you are about to give to this committee is the truth, the whole truth and nothing but the truth? Thank you. Now that the witnesses have been sworn in, they will give their opening statements and we will begin with Mr. cuccinelli.
▶ 0:50:00Mr. Cuccinelli: Thank you Mr. chairman. What the supreme court has called a priceless treasure. No foreigner may claim any right to it and precisely because it is so consequential, congress requires that those who seek citizenship through naturalization demonstrate that they deserve it. That they are persons of good moral character, attached to the principles of the constitution, and well disposed to the good order and happiness of the united states.
▶ 0:50:30Mr. Cuccinelli: That is the law of the united states. I had the honor is acting director of uscis of administering the oath of allegiance to hundreds of new citizens. It was a moving experience every time. For me and for them. That oath is a solemn cult -- a solemn covenant. I am here today because I am deeply concerned our system is no longer holding applicants to the proof that oath demands. History bears out that concern.
▶ 0:50:58Mr. Cuccinelli: The clinton administration's citizenship usa program gave production the guiding principle at the expense of accuracy. More than 180,000 applications were processed without proper fbi fingerprint checks, including 80,000 that generated criminal records, never reviewed before citizenship was conferred.
▶ 0:51:22Mr. Cuccinelli: The weaknesses exposed, and consistent standards, inadequate vetting, check the box adjudication have persisted in various forms ever since. When the front-end fails, denaturalization becomes essential.
▶ 0:51:41Mr. Cuccinelli: Operation janus identified roughly 300 15,000 cases with missing fingerprint data including at least 850 eight individuals who had deportation orders, adopted false identities and naturalized without disclosing any of it. Operation second look proposed reviewing 700,000 files for fraud, yet only a fraction of the cases identified were ever thoroughly followed up.
▶ 0:52:06Mr. Cuccinelli: Two cases show what is at stake when the system fails and the tools to correct it are inadequate. March 12 of this year, a naturalized citizen from sierra leone and convicted isis supporter walk into a rotc classroom in my home state of virginia and opened fire, killing lt. Col. Brandon shaw, a decorated combat veteran, and wounding two cadets.
▶ 0:52:35Mr. Cuccinelli: Despite his terrorism conviction, he was never denaturalized and deported. Under current law, terrorism is evidence of -- because he fell outside that window, the government had no clear path to remove him. A brave american soldier died because of that gap. The key this other case may be even more disturbing because this man never should have been naturalized at all.
▶ 0:53:06Mr. Cuccinelli: As the sixth circuit recently recounted, at his naturalization ceremony, he refused to cite the pledge of allegiance. Instead he -- he stood in an american courtroom, refused the oath the law requires, cursed those he called nonbelievers and was naturalized anyway. What followed was tragically predictable.
▶ 0:53:31Mr. Cuccinelli: He traveled to syria, joined isis, fought in the siege that killed thousands in displaced hundreds of thousands, celebrated the beheading of christians and expressed hope that president obama's daughters would be sold as slaves. The sixth circuit just vacated his 8.5 year sentence as a shockingly low, warning that courts refusing to incapacitate terrorists has deadly consequences and side of the old dominion shooting I just recited as proof. We must act on multiple fronts.
▶ 0:54:04Mr. Cuccinelli: Strengthen the front-end so adjudicators conduct meaningful inquiries, and every applicant is thoroughly tested for hostility to american principles. Resource denaturalization so the work of janice and a second look continues and close the legal gaps. The five year window for terrorism as evidence of fraud is too narrow and frankly I don't know why there would be any time limit on something as anti-american as terrorism.
▶ 0:54:31Mr. Cuccinelli: The constitution entrusts congress with plenary authority over naturalization. This is a problem you can solve and I urge you to do so. American citizenship must mean something. When we cheapen it by conferring it on those who are hostile to everything it represents, we fail every immigrant who took the oath in good faith, every native born citizen, and the nation itself. I look forward to hearing from the other witnesses and working with you to address this problem.
▶ 0:55:01Mr. Cuccinelli: I would note you do have the person that I would call the nation's premier expert on the subject working for the U.S. government, joe ed lowe, currently the head of uscis. He has been both an immigration lawyer, he has represented people in front of the government, he has been a prosecutor and he has worked on denaturalization. He has worked on every aspect of this issue, and he is a resource you can readily call upon. Thank you.
▶ 0:55:31Chair Schmitt: Thank you Mr. cuccinelli. Professor spiro, we will hear from you next.
▶ 0:55:37Prof. Spiro: Thank you senator lee and distinguished members of the committee and thank you for your invitation to testify before the subcommittee today about constitutional restraints -- constraints on denaturalization. Any consideration of denaturalization must start with the elevated space that naturalization has held in our constitutional culture since the founding.
▶ 0:56:02Prof. Spiro: As justice marshall remarked in the 1824 decision of osborn versus bank of the united states, the naturalized citizen co., becomes a member of the society, possessing all the rights of a native citizen and standing in view of the constitution on the footing of a native. Naturalized citizens are co-equals in our constitutional order. They enjoy the same security of citizenship as is enjoyed by nativeborn.
▶ 0:56:30Prof. Spiro: That security is nearly complete as justice black wrote, quote the 14th amendment was designed to and does protect every citizen of this nation against a congressional forcible destruction of his citizenship. It is effectively impossible for americans to lose citizenship against their will.
▶ 0:56:53Prof. Spiro: There is one respect in which naturalized citizens stand on different footing than those born with citizenship because naturalization requires a volitional act and because it is appropriately subject to eligibility requirements, there is the possibility of unlawful procurement. Where naturalization is unlawfully procured, it can be rescinded. But that remedy is highly constrained. The government shoulders a heavy burden in making a case for denaturalization.
▶ 0:57:22Prof. Spiro: In line with repeated pronouncements of the supreme court and reflecting the sanctity of citizenship however acquired, denaturalization can only be undertaken where supported by a quote, clear unequivocal and convincing evidence which does not leave the issue in doubt. Naturalization once conferred should not be taken away without the clearest justification.
▶ 0:57:51Prof. Spiro: Denaturalization can only be triggered by circumstances relevant to the naturalization application itself. There are no for requirement -- at the time of naturalization. Proposals to expand denaturalization grounds concede this baseline.
▶ 0:58:15Prof. Spiro: The so called a scam act aims to take post naturalization conduct and relate it back to the naturalization application through the requirements of good moral character and constitutional attachment. But to take post naturalization criminal activity to reflect an applicant's qualities earlier presents an evidentiary area exercise that hardly seems intelligible.
▶ 0:58:40Prof. Spiro: Determinations of a legal procurement consider how the real facts would have affected a reasonable government official, properly applying naturalization law at the time of the application. Proposals to expand denaturalization would require the following inquiry. How would the government have determined good moral character or some other qualification if it had known that an applicant was going to engage in certain conduct at some point in the future?
▶ 0:59:10Prof. Spiro: That, senators is cristobal justice. -- is crystal ball justice. Spheres quote, proof is treacherous and objective judgment even by the most disciplined minds is precarious. At the very least, the proposals would open the door to arbitrary and inappropriately subjected speculations about a citizen's prior state of mind.
▶ 0:59:43Prof. Spiro: Suggestion that post naturalization associative activity should call into question qualifications for naturalization at the time it was granted would also pose serious concerns under the first amendment. Make no mistake, if enacted into law, bills such as the scam act would at the least be highly circumscribed by the courts.
▶ 1:00:07Prof. Spiro: The supreme court may be friendly to the powers of the political branches in the context of immigration, but it takes an altogether more searching posture with respect to citizenship. In the meantime, legislative proposals relating to denaturalization, coupled with the trump administration's aggressive deployment of existing authorities sends a message to all naturalized citizens, some 25 million of them, that their citizenship is less secure than those of fellow americans born with the status.
▶ 1:00:38Prof. Spiro: Even if you actually suffered denaturalization, the message to all naturalized citizens is that their citizenship is second-class citizenship. Those seeking to police naturalization more aggressively may be seeking to better protect the institution of citizenship, but these efforts are more likely to diminish citizenship than safeguard it. Thank you for the invitation to testify and I look forward to your questions.
▶ 1:01:05Chair Schmitt: Thank you professor spiro. Mr. fishman, you are next.
▶ 1:01:09Mr. Fishman: Thank you. I am honored to testify before you today, regarding the constitutional parameters of denaturalization. Over the past few months, three naturalized citizens have murdered or attempted to murder americans in apparent terrorist attacks.
▶ 1:01:30Mr. Fishman: It strains credibility to assert that when naturalized, they had met the requirement of being of good moral character, attached to the principles of the constitution, and well disposed to the good order and happiness of the united states, or that they truthfully profess when taking the oath to support and defend the constitution and renounce all allegiance and fidelity to nations of which they were once subjects. Why does it matter that they were naturalized?
▶ 1:02:00Mr. Fishman: Naturalized citizens are not subject to deportation. They can serve in congress, can vote in federal elections and have an unfettered ability to work for the federal government. The supreme court has stated citizenship obtained through naturalization is not second-class, but carries with it the privilege of full participation in the affairs of our society.
▶ 1:02:24Mr. Fishman: Federal law provides that the government can seek to denaturalize those who illegally procured naturalization or by concealing material fact or by willful misrepresentation. The court has made clear that an applicant for naturalization must be in strict compliance with all the congressionally imposed prerequisites to the acquisition of citizenship, and failure to comply with any of these renders citizenship illegally procured.
▶ 1:02:53Mr. Fishman: However the court has also ruled that at least under current law, the government must provide clear unequivocal and convincing evidence additive -- of a denaturalize -- congress could substitute a lower standard of proof. Can the government revoke naturalization based on behavior engaged in or beliefs expressed post naturalization?
▶ 1:03:20Mr. Fishman: As one federal court put it, post naturalization evidence can at best rise only to the level of evidential facts. As to a citizens a state of mind at naturalization. While the supreme court has expressed dubious dennis as to whether disqualifying views expressed after denaturalization -- after naturalization are accurate representations of a person's views when they took the oath, the court has not held that there were -- that they
▶ 1:03:50Mr. Fishman: Were insufficient proof as a matter of law. In 1950, a special subcommittee, this committee explained that during world war ii the supreme court began to hold the government to such a strict standard of proof that it became very difficult to denaturalize citizens with nazi sympathies.
▶ 1:04:11Mr. Fishman: The subcommittee thus recommended enactment of a new federal law, providing that joining a subversive organization within five years after naturalization shall be presumptive but rebuttable evidence that naturalization was obtained unlawfully. But it emphasized that this is not intended to place a condition subsequent upon naturalization, but rather simply to provide rule of evidence.
▶ 1:04:39Mr. Fishman: It was enacted into law in the internal security act of 1950 and in modified form remains the law today. One difficulty in assessing the presumption is that it is rarely invoked and as far as I can tell, never the subject of a federal court decision. But we can look for guidance at federal court decisions regarding other such presumptions.
▶ 1:05:04Mr. Fishman: In 1913 the supreme court concluded that for a legislative presumption of one fact from the evidence of another, not the current -- denial of due process of law or a denial of equal protection of law and is only essential that there shall be some rational connection between the fact proved and the ultimate fact presumed. The court concluded that the denaturalization presumption it was reviewing past this test.
▶ 1:05:31Mr. Fishman: It stated that congress has indicated its opinion that the intervening period may be as much as five years without rendering the presumption baseless. It noted that that period seems long but that we are not prepared to pronounce it excessive or unreasonable.
▶ 1:05:50Mr. Fishman: But the court cautioned that as the intervening time approaches five years, the presumption necessarily must weaken to such a degree as to require but slight counter evidence to overcome it. Conversely, when the intervening time is so short as it is shown to have been in the present case, the presumption cannot be regarded as yielding to anything short of a substantial and convincing explanation. Thank you.
▶ 1:06:18Chair Schmitt: Thank you for your opening statements. We will now turn to five-minute rounds of questions. We will be asking those in order of seniority. I want to thank the committee chairman, senator eric schmitt, for giving us this chance to explore these important issues.
▶ 1:06:42Chair Schmitt: I am proud to cosponsor the scam act because I believe citizenship must be grounded in conduct that confirms rather than contradicts the promises made in connection with the naturalization process. Citizenship when granted through the naturalization process can't be secured through fraud. Mr. fishman, I would like to start with you. When an applicant takes an oath of citizenship, what obligations does that person undertake?
▶ 1:08:08Sen. Lee: Right and it's neither arbitrary for congress to take this seriously because it is a serious matter, to become a citizen of a nation. That's why you don't want people having access to citizenship through fraud. And if citizenship was obtained through fraud, that is a problem we should try to remedy.
▶ 1:08:31Sen. Lee: How would the founding fathers have viewed an applicant who may have deliberately concealed affiliations, loyalties, conduct , perhaps beliefs that are fundamentally at odds with the citizenship requirements? [inaudible]
▶ 1:08:49Sen. Lee: Right, and they made this clear. We don't have to guess much either. In the naturalization act of 1790, congress required proof of good moral character and an oath to support the constitution. In 1795, congress amended that to add requirements that applicants must be attached to the principles of the constitution, well disposed to the good character and happiness of the united states. Mr.
▶ 1:09:16Sen. Lee: Cuccinelli, there is an important distinction between constitutionally protected associations and affirmative misconduct including fraud, violence, insurrection or terrorism.
▶ 1:09:38Sen. Lee: If the government could probably deny naturalization, to someone who applied to be a naturalized citizen, because of participation for example in a terrorist enterprise, why should it not be able to denaturalize that same person when the affiliation was deliberately or fraudulently concealed during the process?
▶ 1:09:57Mr. Cuccinelli: They most certainly can. I think professor spiro painted accurately the tall hill the government has to climb on a case-by-case basis.
▶ 1:10:07Sen. Lee: Sure, it should not be done for light reasons.
▶ 1:10:10Mr. Cuccinelli: Correct and you are not describing transient or light reasons. Not court tested, and terms of the length of the time and of course the scam act would double the current period from five to 10 years.
▶ 1:10:28Mr. Cuccinelli: As yet, we don't know how courts will respond to that, except that on the concept, the courts have accepted that relevant behavior after naturalization has a nexus with the obligations for naturalization, while it is rebuttable, it is still an allowable form of evidence that can be used for denaturalization .
▶ 1:10:55Sen. Lee: Given certain transnational drug cartels being deemed terrorist organizations not just willy-nilly but because they are engaging in acts of terrorism. Not all of them but some of them. Should cartel related conduct, affiliation with a cartel, working on behalf of the cartel, such cartel as has been designated a terrorist organization.
▶ 1:11:22Sen. Lee: Should that enter into the discussion when considering denaturalization?
▶ 1:11:26Mr. Cuccinelli: It most assuredly should. They are essentially because I state actors at war with the united states, or at least victimizing the united states. And unlike an islamic terrorist organization that is motivated by religious precepts, the cartels are massive, to the level of government level.
▶ 1:11:57Sen. Lee: Sometimes rivaling their host state government.
▶ 1:12:02Mr. Cuccinelli: They are the government in 16 the test -- in 1/6 of mexico. Another six is contested. They use those resources and they wage war on the united states with people assisting them and it is not a formal state of war. Nonetheless, those assisting them should be in the same boat as someone assisting isis.
▶ 1:12:34Mr. Cuccinelli: They are both attempting to evict devise americans quite intent -- to victimize americans quite intentionally.
▶ 1:12:43Sen. Lee: With regard to those organizations that are assisting isis.
▶ 1:12:47Mr. Cuccinelli: That is true.
▶ 1:12:49Sen. Lee: Thank you Mr. chairman.
▶ 1:12:51Mr. Cuccinelli: If I could, one difference, is that the cartels simply wish to ratify their own does -- satisfy their own desires. Where isis seeks to end the united states of america. That is a material difference between the goals of the two entities.
▶ 1:13:15Mr. Cuccinelli: There is a meaningful difference between someone helping isis and someone helping, say cj&g out of mexico. The personal impact to the united states might be the same but the broader strategic goals of those individuals are very different.
▶ 1:13:31Sen. Lee: Meaning giving -- given the proximity of the harm. If isis is operating half a world away but the cartel is right on our border. They are materially assisting isis or other international terrorist organizations, it can be difficult to differentiate that from isis or other terrorist organizations.
▶ 1:13:54Mr. Cuccinelli: In those instances, absolutely.
▶ 1:14:00Chair Schmitt: Senator hirono.
▶ 1:14:03Sen. Hirono: , I thought it would be welch.
▶ 1:14:06Chair Schmitt: He yielded his time for you.
▶ 1:14:11Sen. Hirono: This is a very bizarre hearing to tell the truth. President trump spent all of 2024 insisting he was going to go after immigrants that commit serious crimes, the so-called worst of the worst. And -- like almost everything else trump said, that was they live.
▶ 1:14:33Sen. Hirono: His regime has indiscriminately gone after all immigrants, not just those undocumented, but legal immigrants and people who have done everything the right way. A lot of people get swept into this desire on the part of stephen miller apparently, to get rid of immigrants in our country so the president has insisted bans on visa processing, affecting immigrants from 92 countries.
▶ 1:15:05Sen. Hirono: He made it really tough for people from those countries to get here. He has targeted international students with student visas, declining from 91,000 to 42,000 from 2024 to 2025. You can imagine the impact on educational institutions, many of whom welcome students from abroad, to add to the diversity, not to mention payment of tuitions.
▶ 1:15:34Sen. Hirono: He has also tried to override the constitution by redefining or getting rid of birthright citizenship through executive order. This case is before the supreme court. Denaturalization is the latest step in this regime wreaking havoc on our already broken immigration system, trying to break it beyond repair, from where I sit.
▶ 1:15:58Sen. Hirono: He is now telling 24 million naturalized americans there citizenship can be question. When I say this hearing is bizarre, you will use conduct that occurs 10 years after the naturalization was conducted with application for naturalization was submitted, conduct 10 years later to somehow go back to the point of the application to determine whether there was fraud
▶ 1:16:28Sen. Hirono: Committed? It is very bizarre. 24 million already naturalized citizens. I happen to be the only naturalized citizens sitting on this committee. I'm horrified by the implication that naturalized citizens get second-class citizenship. Should they commit crimes as citizens, yes they should be prosecuted like any other U.S.
▶ 1:16:56Sen. Hirono: Citizen, but what laws like the scam act does is subject the naturalized citizen to even more harm or, more than would be visited upon a U.S. citizen, which a naturalized citizen by definition is. Let's be clear, this has never been about law & order for the republicans.
▶ 1:17:24Sen. Hirono: This is all about getting immigrants, it is about terrorizing immigrant communities. Whether it be I.c.e. Officers who are acting outside of what I would call reasonable behavior, and using our immigration system as a pretext to keep certain people out of our country.
▶ 1:17:51Sen. Hirono: As a naturalized citizen, I'm proud. I'm democratic. I'm america -- an un-american thing to do to someone who decides to become an american citizen, to hold this over their heads and treat us like second-class citizens. I do have questions. I still have some time.
▶ 1:18:15Sen. Hirono: I have a question for -- there is one professor sitting there, professor spiro. What do you think about this effort, efforts like the act I just talked about? You mentioned it. What do you think of this effort to try and impose even more requirements on naturalized citizens than we do on citizens?
▶ 1:18:45Mr. Spiro: I agree, senator, that this is of a peice with the war on immigration including legal immigration and it does send a message that citizens who have naturalized are not secure in their status.
▶ 1:19:09Mr. Spiro: Senator schmitt said fraudsters should be scared, terrorists, spies should be scared, naturalized citizens should not be scared or afraid. But I think this is largely a sideshow because there are very few naturalized citizens who are going to be denaturalized under existing authorities or the
▶ 1:19:40Mr. Spiro: Proposed legislation because the courts are so vigilant with respect to denaturalization cases. To take post naturalization conduct back to the date of naturalization is a perilous inquiry. I think we can all agree as senator welch started us, if you were a member of a terrorist group at the time of naturalization, you should not be naturalized.
▶ 1:20:11Mr. Spiro: But if 10 years lateryou do something --
▶ 1:20:14Sen. Hirono: We can talk about people 10 years later who commit murder or heinous acts, but the scam act also allows people to be prosecuted for welfare fraud. Just about anybody who is in the welfare program can be accused of welfare fraud.
▶ 1:20:33Sen. Hirono: This really opens up a way that people can be sought to be denaturalized and there is a directive are agencies are supposed to come up with the 100 to 200 cases of denaturalization every month. They are not talking about going after terrorists, 100 to 200 every month.
▶ 1:21:01Sen. Hirono: They are talking about going after people they could accuse of a whole bunch of other things. That is why 24 million people who are naturalized in our country are going to be subjected to this kind of so-called oversight that I think is to say the least more than astounding. It should be unconstitutional. Thank you.
▶ 1:21:27Chair Schmitt: Speaking of astounding, your comments are astounding, senator. You mentioned a few words, horrific. I think the american taxpayer that has been ripped off by people who came to this country to rip them off, that is horrific. You talk about bizarre -- no, it is my time, you went over time, it is my time.
▶ 1:21:50Chair Schmitt: Bizarre is the idea you would be here on this committee defending violent murderers from being deported, that you would be defending violentrapists from being deported, that you would be defending people that took advantage of taxpayers. That is bizarre. A terrorist who kills american citizens, you know what is bizarre is your defense of that.
▶ 1:22:14Chair Schmitt: So forgive me if you're 24 million americans that are naturalized. Citizens, that is ridiculous you have nothing but fear mongering here. What I'm saying in this bill is, if you do those things to the american people, if you take advantage of taxpayers -- you are not recognized. If you commit a terrorist act, if you commit wholesale welfare fraud within 10 years, your damn right we are deporting you.
▶ 1:22:45Chair Schmitt: It is not being accused of anything. If you are convicted in a court of law of these crimes absolutely we should not only convict you but deport you, gone. If you think that is some sort of negative assertion toward me, I will take it, I love it, that is what we should be doing more of in this country because people are coming here and ripping off taxpayers and I for one don't want to see that anymore and if you want to have that debate in public we can do it. But that is what this hearing is about to defend the scam act.
▶ 1:23:16Chair Schmitt: I want to expose your lies in the recent sortation on the dais here. Mr. cuccinelli, federal naturalization law requires perspective citizens to show good moral character, attachment or the cause of duchenne and disposition toward the happiness of the U.S.
▶ 1:23:33Mr. Cuccinelli: Correct.
▶ 1:23:35Chair Schmitt: So if they later join ices, spy for enemies, join a cartel or steal millions through fraud raises the simple question of whether that person actually met the requirements for citizenship, right?
▶ 1:23:47Mr. Cuccinelli: It does, asked.
▶ 1:23:49Chair Schmitt: In many of these we are building on five years to 10 years.
▶ 1:23:53Mr. Cuccinelli: That is right, that is the biggest difference. Plus adding the fraud pieces.
▶ 1:23:59Chair Schmitt: I want to use with the time that I have, let's make this a little more concrete. You referenced this individual. I want to address the case of mirsad ramic, approved for naturalization in 2009, but refused the oath of allegiance at his naturalization ceremony and instead did an islamic oath
▶ 1:24:32Chair Schmitt: And cursed all non-muslims. You think ramic was attached to the principles of the closet to show in?
▶ 1:24:37Mr. Cuccinelli: Quite the opposite.
▶ 1:24:39Chair Schmitt: But he was allowed to be naturalized anyway?
▶ 1:24:41Mr. Cuccinelli: He was, factory line fashion.
▶ 1:24:45Chair Schmitt: Ramic leader joins isis and participates in atrocities that killed more than 100,000 people, is that correct?
▶ 1:24:53Mr. Cuccinelli: He did participate in isis battles, yes.
▶ 1:24:57Chair Schmitt: You think Mr. ramic joining isis within a few years of becoming a citizen is evidence he was not attached to the principles of the constitution of the time of his naturalization?
▶ 1:25:09Mr. Cuccinelli: It certainly is, yes.
▶ 1:25:12Chair Schmitt: I want to talk about the terrorist at old dominion. This man was born in sierra leone and became a naturalized citizen. He was then convicted of attempting to carry out an attack on behalf of isis but was released from prison on behalf of the U.S. rather than be naturalized at the border, correct?
▶ 1:25:34Mr. Cuccinelli: That is correct.
▶ 1:25:35Chair Schmitt: The consequence of the U.S. legal system allowing him to roam free rather than do naturalizing him and deporting him was that he was able to commit a terrorist attack involving an rotc program in virginia, killing a lieutenant. This is just the absurdity. I think this is a common sense solution but that is where we are. Mr.
▶ 1:25:59Chair Schmitt: Fishman, under current law, joining a terrorist organization is grounds for denaturalization, but only if it occurs within five years of naturalization, correct?
▶ 1:26:11Mr. Fishman: Yes, and it is a rebuttable presumption. The naturalized citizen is free to present evidence that no, in fact he did support the constitution, in trial.
▶ 1:26:23Chair Schmitt: But in this instance, jailoh joining isis occurred more than five years after his naturalization so denaturalization, current law wouldn't cover him? , correct?
▶ 1:26:36Mr. Fishman: Under current law.
▶ 1:26:38Chair Schmitt: Even if he had been denaturalized the supreme court has interpreted them is that not being deportable.
▶ 1:26:46Mr. Fishman: Correct.
▶ 1:26:50Chair Schmitt: But that was a statutory holding so congress is free to change that, correct?
▶ 1:26:56Mr. Fishman: Courts indicated congress can lower government's burden of proof in these cases. The question of how long post naturalization an act can occur and still relate back, that will be the supreme telling us.
▶ 1:27:16Chair Schmitt: That is why it is important to note the scam act includes a provision to ensure terrorist like jalloh are deported. >> can I comment?
▶ 1:27:36Chair Schmitt: The rebuttable presumption, post naturalization, anything you do will be subject to rebuttable presumption based on the supreme court's history of rulings in this area. I do not think you will ever have the constitutional authority like you do on the front end of naturalization.
▶ 1:27:58Chair Schmitt: Congress has near plenary power, to not give an individual the opportunity to rub about the presumption raised within the law. Just based on the existing longtime supreme court precedent.
▶ 1:28:13Chair Schmitt: Senator welch.
▶ 1:28:15Sen. Welch: Thank you very much. Professor spiro, a lot of the examples the chairman gave are pretty appalling crimes. Is there any reservation or inability of the prosecutor to take that person injustice and put them in jail for as long as the judge determines?
▶ 1:28:36Mr. Spiro: Not at all, senator. People who engage in heinous crimes or terrorist activity should be subject to the full force of the criminal law. But they should not be subject to an additional penalty that relates to sacrificing their citizenship.
▶ 1:28:54Sen. Welch: Thank you. On this question of denaturalization, I think somebody talked about it, but it has been very rarely used in either republican or democratic administrations. Can you elaborate on that?
▶ 1:29:11Mr. Spiro: That is because the courts are so searching in their scrutiny of denaturalization cases so the bar is a very high one. You have to show there was fraud at the time of naturalization itself. There are not that many cases in which that standard can be satisfied.
▶ 1:29:37Mr. Spiro: The case senator schmitt alluded to with respect to the person who refused to take the oath that seems like an obvious case where denaturalization would be appropriate.
▶ 1:29:45Sen. Welch: In the schneiderman case, the court warned against construing congressional statutes governing denaturalizations as potentially circumscribing liberty and political thought, which is essentially the free-speech right any citizen has. Is that correct, am I right in that?
▶ 1:30:07Mr. Spiro: That is correct. Schneiderman involved the attempted denaturalization of a member of the communist party. In that case the supreme court undertook a searching examination of whether membership in the communist party was consistent with attachment to constitutional principles and rejected the government's attempt in that case.
▶ 1:30:32Mr. Spiro: First amendment principles are clearly at stake here when it is associative activity the government is attempting to use by way of showing illegal procurement.
▶ 1:30:43Sen. Welch: It has been the history of the court to protect free-speech speech rights and rights of association. Those involve people who have the right to associate that I may profoundly disagree with and think their point of view is detrimental to the well-being of this country, right?
▶ 1:31:00Mr. Spiro: Absolutely. In schneiderman justice rutledge had up powerful concurrence in which he argued that quote, no citizen with such a threat hanging over his head could be free.
▶ 1:31:21Mr. Spiro: That is best course would be silence or hypocrisy, if he were to face possibility of denaturalization for first amendment activities. In rutledge's opinion this is not citizenship.
▶ 1:31:35Sen. Welch: I want to summarize to see if I have this right. If a person lies, and that can also be a lie by omission, that they are part of a terrorist group, let's say, they can be denaturalized under current law.
▶ 1:31:52Mr. Spiro: Yes.
▶ 1:31:53Sen. Welch: And if a person commits a crime subsequent to becoming a naturalized citizen, they are subject to the full force of the law just like you and I are, correct?
▶ 1:32:03Mr. Spiro: Yes.
▶ 1:32:05Sen. Welch: The number of cases that have been prosecuted for denaturalization historically under republican and democratic administrations has been quite small, correct?
▶ 1:32:16Mr. Spiro: Exceedingly small.
▶ 1:32:18Sen. Welch: That is my concern, Mr. chairman. I do think there are a lot of other activities going on in this whole immigration debate that we have had in this country where we need more attention. I'm talking about those high school kids and you probably share my appreciation for them.
▶ 1:32:39Sen. Welch: But where I have this confidence, under existing law, person who emits fraud, and that includes by omission, not affirmatively acknowledging their terrorist some please, they can be denaturalized. Once that person becomes a citizen they are subject to the full force of the law which includes going to jail forever, is that right? Yes, senator.
▶ 1:33:01Sen. Welch: I yield back.
▶ 1:33:03Chair Schmitt: Senator blackburn.
▶ 1:33:05Sen. Blackburn: I want to thank you all for being here. The scam act is something we are bringing forward. I also have the fraud accountability act and these are things tennesseans are talking about to me, they are absolutely appalled with what is being uncovered by vice president vance's task force in the amount of fraud people who are here in the country legally or illegally
▶ 1:33:40Sen. Blackburn: Have been naturalized or choosing to commit against U.S. citizens and the american taxpayer. The fraud accountability act which several of us have done would actually go in and amend the immigration and nationality act to make any act of fraud, whether it is against an individual, a U.S.
▶ 1:34:07Sen. Blackburn: Citizen, or against a local, state or federal government, a dean naturalizing and deportable offense. It also would put in place that these cases could be heard by any federal court instead of having to wait for an immigration court. Mr. cuccinelli, I want to come to you on this.
▶ 1:34:36Sen. Blackburn: With all the discussion we have had here today and the fact we do have members on the other side of the dais that think sanctuary cities are just fine and breaking the law is just fine when it applies to immigration, I want to talk a minute about the role that congress has to play in strengthening these laws.
▶ 1:35:02Sen. Blackburn: Doing things like the scam act, or fraud accountability act, and standing up against these sanctuary cities.
▶ 1:35:11Mr. Cuccinelli: When you talk about fraud outside the government context, you are leaning on a naturalization or denaturalization discussion on the law congress already established about people committing to the good order and well-being of the U.S. and people of the U.S. I would note, we are talking about ways to accomplish denaturalization.
▶ 1:35:40Mr. Cuccinelli: I would suggest -- I walked through numbers in the tens of thousands in my opening statement. I would suggest there is another simpler reason there are not more denaturalization proceedings. It is that they are hard and because the government has put to its proof one single case at a time. What you alluded to the vice president on -- uncovering a system why fraud.
▶ 1:36:07Mr. Cuccinelli: I was an attorney general and shattered records for fraud recoveries and there are actually simple systematic ways to reduce fraud. There are simpler systematic ways to keep people from being naturalized in the first place where congress has far more process power under the constitution than after naturalization. But it requires the will to do so. We talked about the ramic case.
▶ 1:36:38Mr. Cuccinelli: Every uscis person in the room should have been jumping up to make sure that person's citizenship papers were not signed because they were violating U.S. law then, he was. But, this is not partisan at all, there is this factory line mentality that in fact the burden of proof is on the government to deny people. That is not what the law says.
▶ 1:37:07Mr. Cuccinelli: The law says the burden is on the prospective immigrant to prove they have good moral character, to prove they are well disposed to the constitutional principles of the U.S., to prove that they will participate and contribute to the well-being in good order of the U.S. we do not hold them to that proof. The presumption including in this building is that the government has to give a reason not to grant the benefit.
▶ 1:37:37Mr. Cuccinelli: The burden of proof as a practical matter has been flipped. I don't know how far back that happened. It was long before I was ever crossing the potomac. I'm from virginia. I think god but the potomac therefore a reason so I try to respected and say on my side -- stay on my side, but its good to be with you today. I think you are on the right path on the after-the-fact version.
▶ 1:38:03Mr. Cuccinelli: I would also suggest there are plenty of ways, especially in the terrorism area and folks who are predisposed not to the well-being of the U.S. that they can be screened out without the kind of restrictions, legal restrictions, appropriate by the way, that you would use in say hiring an american who was already an american.
▶ 1:38:29Mr. Cuccinelli: Those things can be applied and should be, but that is not happening now.
▶ 1:38:33Sen. Blackburn: Thank you. >> Mr. chairman I would ask for unanimous consent [indiscernible] outlining the supreme court jurisprudence disagree for protections for naturalized citizens.
▶ 1:38:46Chair Schmitt: Without objection. Also in the tradition of denaturalization I would enter into the record recently produced congressional research report discussing our nations tradition of denaturalization. From the report president roosevelt called on congress to really -- revise existing naturalization laws including formalizing denaturalization proceedings following reports of widespread abuse.
▶ 1:39:09Chair Schmitt: The first denaturalization was included in the naturalization act of 1906 and delegated to U.S. attorneys the authority upon affidavit showing good cause therefore to institute proceedings for the purpose of setting aside and canceling the certificate of citizenship on the grounds of fraud or legal, procurement end quote. Entered into the record without objection. Senator cruz should be here in two minutes on the two minutes I have the filibuster I will ask you Mr.
▶ 1:39:38Chair Schmitt: Cuccinelli, you talked about that incident when the individual refuses to do the oath and cusses out people. In your experience what changes to the naturalization process would you recommend that we currently have? Changes to the system that we have now?
▶ 1:39:59Mr. Cuccinelli: Part of the problem that exists now is the corporate culture that has grown up around this process which is in uscis, if you go back to the clinton era it was nis, and nobody in particular is to blame for that. But the pressure is always to move people through.
▶ 1:40:25Mr. Cuccinelli: Whereas the pressure ought to be to vet thoroughly for those who frankly will contribute to the U.S. more rather than either less or may be detract from fraudsters, terrorists, etc. I will be really blunt on some examples. Two religious groups come to mind.
▶ 1:40:53Mr. Cuccinelli: Hindu nationalists, which we are saying play out in india, and islamists who are committed to sharia law. Sharia law is a governmental system that accompanies islam. It is not a religion of itself, it is a political structural belief. If you look at pew data, no right wing organization Mr.
▶ 1:41:17Mr. Cuccinelli: Chairman, and I will pick the worst, I will go to the biggest number, afghanistan, has a 99% commitment, meaning of the surveyed population, to sharia. Sharia is a governmental system incompatible with the constitutional principles of the U.S. so is hindu nationalism.
▶ 1:41:42Mr. Cuccinelli: If people are identified as holding those views, they should be immediately excluded from the opportunity to immigrate to the U.S. there is no effort to vet those positions in any meaningful way, case-by-case, from rather obvious countries, if you want to be efficient about it.
▶ 1:42:06Mr. Cuccinelli: You can apply all the same questions every country if you wanted to treat everybody the same as a matter and give up the efficiency that involves. That is an enormous number that fits perfectly legally within the constitutional structure on the front side of naturalization . Not so much on the backside of naturalization.
▶ 1:42:29Chair Schmitt: Thank you. Senator cruz.
▶ 1:42:34Sen. Cruz: Thank you, Mr. chairman. I appreciate you holding the meeting open to give me time to get here. Mr. cuccinelli, good to see you.
▶ 1:42:42Mr. Cuccinelli: Always a pleasure.
▶ 1:42:44Sen. Cruz: Citizenship through naturalization is not automatic, is that right?
▶ 1:42:48Mr. Spiro: -- Mr. cuccinelli: absolutely not.
▶ 1:42:52Sen. Cruz: In fact, a section lays out specific requirements before becoming a naturalized citizen, is that right?
▶ 1:43:03Mr. Cuccinelli: Absolutely, they are ancient from the country standpoint.
▶ 1:43:07Sen. Cruz: Every applicant must be a person of good moral character, attached to the principles of the constitution of the united states and three, well disposed to the good order and happiness of the united states, is that correct?
▶ 1:43:23Mr. Cuccinelli: Correct.
▶ 1:43:25Sen. Cruz: If they fail to fulfill any requirement the government must deny the application.
▶ 1:43:33Mr. Cuccinelli: That is what the law says.
▶ 1:43:35Sen. Cruz: That includes reviewing criminal history and background, correct?
▶ 1:43:39Mr. Cuccinelli: That is the process. It is not always followed.
▶ 1:43:43Sen. Cruz: It also includes a naturalization interview, citizenship test and oath of allegiance, is that right?
▶ 1:43:50Mr. Cuccinelli: Yes.
▶ 1:43:52Sen. Cruz: Under both obama and biden administrations the government stopped properly vetting applicants for naturalization, do you agree with that?
▶ 1:44:03Mr. Cuccinelli: Yes, and it continues to be a growing problem, just in the wrong number in the cases.
▶ 1:44:10Sen. Cruz: Is it also correct during the obama administration it was discovered the government failed to upload fingerprints of at least 148,000 immigrants, many from countries with ties to terrorism?
▶ 1:44:25Mr. Cuccinelli: Yes, that is correct.
▶ 1:44:28Sen. Cruz: And as a result at least 858 individuals who were ordered removed under one identity were instead granted U.S. citizenship under other -- another identity, is that correct?
▶ 1:44:40Mr. Cuccinelli: Yes, it is.
▶ 1:44:42Sen. Cruz: After more than 12 million illegal aliens crossed into our border illegally under the biden administration, we do agree the problem has only gotten worse?
▶ 1:44:52Mr. Cuccinelli: Absolutely. That is my reference to the pipeline.
▶ 1:44:57Sen. Cruz: Tragically this is not a hypothetical. Just three months ago in austin, texas, a naturalized citizen from senegal murdered three and injured 15. Mr. fishman, the austin shooter entered the U.S. on a tourist visa, not an immigrant visa, is that right?
▶ 1:45:19Mr. Fishman: I believe so, yes.
▶ 1:45:21Sen. Cruz: The austin shooter committed multiple crimes and was arrested multiple times before he received a green card and before he was naturalized, is that right?
▶ 1:45:31Mr. Fishman: Yes.
▶ 1:45:32Sen. Cruz: But the obama administration made him a citizen nonetheless, despite his crimes and despite his arrests?
▶ 1:45:40Mr. Fishman: Yes.
▶ 1:45:41Sen. Cruz: Three people were murdered, 15 more were injured, and the shooter was found wearing a sweatshirt emblazoned with "property of allah." the obama administration's failure to vet naturalization applicants cost americans their lives. Those failures rippled forward in time. Obama's errors are surfacing today.
▶ 1:46:10Sen. Cruz: Biden's errors predictably will surface tomorrow. That is why denaturalization cases are not token, they are urgent. Mr. cuccinelli, is it correct that we still don't know the number of people like the austin shooter who were wrongfully naturalized despite documented criminal records?
▶ 1:46:29Mr. Cuccinelli: Absolutely, and we will never know, it already slipped through our fingers.
▶ 1:46:36Sen. Cruz: Unfortunately gets worse. Let's turn to requirements applicants must support the constitution and embrace our country's basic values. Mr. fishman, during the biden administration would you agree the civics test was so easy it failed to screen applicants?
▶ 1:46:51Mr. Fishman: To any appropriate degree, yes.
▶ 1:46:57Sen. Cruz: Among 100 publicly available questions applicants were asked only 10 questions, and only needed six corrective pass, is that right?
▶ 1:47:06Mr. Fishman: Yes.
▶ 1:47:07Sen. Cruz: That is a 60% score to become a U.S. citizen. Anywhere else 60% is a feeling grade, an f, except under joe biden if you want to become an american citizen. Whereas in the past, answers needed to be given verbally in english, the biden administration went a step further and gave multiple-choice questions on an electronic tablet, is that right?
▶ 1:47:32Mr. Fishman: Yes.
▶ 1:47:34Sen. Cruz: You didn't even need to speak english in order to pass the test. A process this deliberately lenient doesn't screen for citizens. It is a rubberstamp to give voters that I believe joe biden wanted to vote democrat.
▶ 1:47:52Mr. Fishman: That goes back to the clinton administration where there was a concerted effort to get as many people naturalization as possible because they were promised by advocacy groups to vote in the 96 election for the president and vice president.
▶ 1:48:10Sen. Cruz: Even the oath of allegiance was effectively abandoned. Mr. fishman, are you familiar with mirsad ramic?
▶ 1:48:20Mr. Fishman: I unfortunately learned much about him today.
▶ 1:48:24Sen. Cruz: At his naturalization ceremony,mirsad ramic refused to recite the oath of allegiance to the U.S., is that right?
▶ 1:48:34Mr. Fishman: That is what I have heard, yes.
▶ 1:48:36Sen. Cruz: Instead, ramic recited in islamic oath and cursed nonbelievers, is that right?
▶ 1:48:43Mr. Fishman: That is right, it has been testified to today.
▶ 1:48:46Sen. Cruz: Yet the obama administration gave him citizenship nonetheless.
▶ 1:48:51Mr. Fishman: That is apparently yes the case.
▶ 1:48:53Sen. Cruz: One year later he became an isis fighter in the middle east, is that right?
▶ 1:49:00Mr. Fishman: That is what I have learned today, yes.
▶ 1:49:05Sen. Cruz: Look, basic question anyone should ask, what in the hell are they doing?
▶ 1:49:11Mr. Fishman: I think there should be an investigation of those who were there when he did that. That was clearly even under current law entirely inappropriate and unlawful.
▶ 1:49:24Sen. Cruz: Cuccinelli Mr. cuccinelli, a joint dod and dhs report in 2019 found at least 148 individuals convicted of terrorism had become naturalization U.S. citizens, is that right?
▶ 1:49:39Mr. Cuccinelli: Yes. 148 people who pass the test who were deemed to have satisfied the oath were handed a certificate. The naturalization process did not catch up to them. It gave them the veneer of citizenship. We only know these names because the trump administration officials went looking. 148 is the floor, not the ceiling. The tip of the iceberg.
▶ 1:50:10Mr. Cuccinelli: The pattern is consistent. Among recent denaturalization cases brought by the trump doj one individual concealed child sexual abuse offenses, another swore allegiance to al qaeda, yet another joined al-shabaab, and one even secretly served as
▶ 1:50:41Mr. Cuccinelli: A cuban intelligence agent. Professor spiro, do you believe we should be granting citizenship to individuals convicted of child sexual abuse is?
▶ 1:50:52Mr. Spiro: Of course not, if the offense predated naturalization. One thing I would say is you have four examples here, and the number of individuals naturalized is about 800,000 a year. So that is, whenever you take a population of 800,000 individuals you will get a couple bad apples.
▶ 1:51:15Sen. Cruz: Let's talk about those bad apples. Do you believe we should be granting citizenship to someone who swears allegiance to al qaeda?
▶ 1:51:22Mr. Spiro: Of course not, if they did so before they were naturalized.
▶ 1:51:28Sen. Cruz: Let's take Mr. ramic. Do you believe the biden administration was right to grant citizenship -- actually, the obama administration, you believe the obama administration was right to grant citizenship when Mr. ramic refused to cite the loath -- oath of allegiance and instead cited the islamic oath and cursed nonbelievers, is that right?
▶ 1:51:55Mr. Spiro: No, because he failed to meet the requirements of naturalization at the time of naturalization.
▶ 1:52:02Sen. Cruz: Cuccinelli Mr., none of these individuals were entitled to american citizen of, -- citizenship, where they?
▶ 1:52:11Mr. Cuccinelli: No.
▶ 1:52:13Sen. Cruz: Every american has to uphold our constitution and way of life. Denaturalization does not undo real citizenship, it exposes fraud, fixes the record, and corrects citizenship that was never lawfully granted. With that I want to thank each of the three witnesses for being here today.
▶ 1:52:42Sen. Cruz: Written questions for the record can be submitted until wednesday, june 10, 2026 at 5:00 p.m. And we will ask witnesses to submit their responses within two weeks so by wednesday june 24, 2026 by 5:00 p.m. Thank you again to the witnesses in this hearing is adjourned. [captioning performed by the national captioning institute, which is responsible for its caption content and accuracy. Visit ncicap.org]