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▶ 0:36:58>> this hearing will come to order. That afternoon. I want to welcome you to consider the nominations of Dr. roger mason to be the director of the national reconnaissance office and Mr. michael vance to be assistant secretary of state for intelligence and research. I want to remind all those in attendance that we welcome your presence here today but the vice chairman and I have zero tolerance for audience disruptions.
▶ 0:37:22Verbal and physical distractions in this committee are prohibited including shouting, standing, raising signs, or making gestures that block the view of other audience members or cameras. Should any disruptions from the audience arise, rest assured I will not hesitate to have disruptors removed and barred from future hearings. Our goal for this hearing is to consider the nominee qualifications and gives members ample opportunity for thoughtful deliberation. Onto the business at hand. Both Dr. mason and Mr.
▶ 0:37:51Vance have already provided detailed substantive written responses to dozens of questions from this committee. Today's hearing will give our senators a chance to hear directly from the two nominations -- nominees before us who are both highly unpublished individuals with impressive professional records. I want to thank Dr. mason and Mr. vance for their willingness to answer the call to public service once again and I would like to think the family members and loved ones. Some of whom are here with us and others of whom are watching from a distance.
▶ 0:38:21For their support during what could be a lengthy and grueling nomination process. Our nominees today have many years of extensive experience in their respective deals. First, Dr. mason currently serves as the chief growth officer for b-2 expert corporation and he served as president of the space and intelligence sector and as assistant director of national intelligence for systems and resource analyses. Because of Dr.
▶ 0:38:47Mason's dedication and leadership, he has received the national intelligence distinguished service medal, the intelligence community medallion and the national geospatial intelligence agency medallion. Dr. mason, drawing on your experience across government and industry in today's hearing, I look allow it to your thoughts on how they can work with the private sector to leverage commercial imagery, providing the industrial base to address the problem of over classification space control.
▶ 0:39:18Second, Mr. vance currently serves as the special advisor to the vice president for asian affairs and as the senior advisor to the undersecretary for political affairs at the state department. Mr. vance previously served at the national ground intelligence center, worked at the state department diplomatic security service special agent and served as an analyst in the national security agency during which time you completed details to the national intelligence council and the national security council.
▶ 0:39:45Given your current advisory roles in the administration and your many years of analytical experience in the intelligence community, I look forward to hearing your thoughts on the importance of providing policymakers with fact-based analysis and objective diplomatic reporting. I focused this committee's efforts in part on returning our intelligence agencies to their core mission of stealing foreign secrets.
▶ 0:40:06The bureau of intelligence research plays an important role in validating those secrets and comparing them to diplomatic reporting and I am eager to hear your views on the subject during today's discussion. I would like to thank our nominees for their many years working on behalf of the american people and for their continued willingness to serve our country in these new roles and I recognize the vice chairman for his opening remarks. >> thank you, Mr. chairman.
▶ 0:40:30Before turning to the witnesses, I want to address the development that underscores why this committee's oversight responsibilities are so important. And make it clear at the outset that this has nothing to do with the gentleman in front of me. I also believe it has nothing to do with my republican colleagues on this side of the aisle. I thought I had seen it all. I thought I could not be shocked anymore.
▶ 0:40:59But the fact that president trump today that bill posey, the head of the federal housing finance agency will also serve as director of national intelligence, a choice that frankly stuns me. We on fact that I guess he assumes may these jobs are too important because he has to do both jobs simultaneously.
▶ 0:41:29When the role of the dni was created, it was written into law that the person to be director of national intelligence should have some national security experience. The loan intelligence experience. I had a great deal of differences with the director.
▶ 0:41:51But I never questioned our background, commitment to the country, national security expertise. He has none of that. Zero. No time in the military. No time in congress. No time in the diplomatic corps. No time in law enforcement.
▶ 0:42:23And this individual is at this critical moment is being asked to come in and help oversee our intelligence community at a time we face unprecedented threats and adversaries. It is an insult. I think it is an insult to folks like Mr. vance and Dr.
▶ 0:42:47Mason and the thousands of people in the intelligence community who serve to keep our nation safe and have the ultimate responsibility to speak truth to power. What qualifications from my standpoint does he bring? To the office? Well, he has shown he is willing to do anything president trump wants, legal or otherwise.
▶ 0:43:16He has taken the federal housing agency and weaponized private information. To be used against presidents political opponents.
▶ 0:43:38And now because of that record, we are going to say, well, let's turn over all of the intelligence classified information to this guy. Does that make sense? You know, the chairman and I have been working our tails off.
▶ 0:43:55And it has been a really strong working relationship to make sure that we make the case to our colleagues in the american people that the intelligence community's most critical tool, section 702 of pfizer which has been in the past not used appropriately, which has been used in the past not to inappropriately touch americans.
▶ 0:44:25This is a tool that is supposed to be foreign is talking to foreigners abroad. We put reforms in. We have seen the fbi performance dramatically improve. Now, I got to go and try to convince my democratic colleagues and some of my colic -- republican colleagues that we are going to put someone in who has shown no respect for private information, who has got no experience in national security to be director of national intelligence?
▶ 0:44:55You know, what does that say about the president's view of our intelligence community? Strangely enough that this guy is able to serve, you know, and we will try to find ways -- I will try to find every way I can to prevent it. He will also be able to serve six months. Strange enough, that six months gets him past election.
▶ 0:45:23I have raised repeatedly efforts by this administration are believed to potentially politicize it. But nominations. Dr. mason -- congratulate you on your nomination to be director of the national reconnaissance office.
▶ 0:45:49If confirmed, you will only be the second senate confirmed director because this committee -- this is such an important agency. Again, I want to compliment you. As you know from your past experience, the nro is responsible for intelligence satellites that deliver sensitive information to the dod and one of the things we talked about, I want to make sure the nga get on the same page all the time and we got to make sure the
▶ 0:46:19Space for us and space command which the president created and I think generally is the right direction needs to work better together. But I want to make sure that the unique culture that is at the nro is not subsumed by the new space force. I also think one of the things that makes me very interested in your nomination is you have about the commercial experience.
▶ 0:46:45I thought for a long time the nro was reluctant to actually partner with commercial so I think that is good experience and I look forward to working with you. Turning to Mr. vance, we have not had a chance to visit much but I also want to congratulate you and your family on your nomination to lead the state department's bureau of intelligence and research. The inr. Now, I believe the inr has always punched above its weight.
▶ 0:47:14It has been willing to be the outlier. And it has been clear that the inr has never been willing to bend to political pressure even when that pressure I think was exerted back years ago.
▶ 0:47:33The inr as well, you guys were I think the best on your pointing out with better accuracy than most about putin's intentions in ukraine. You got it right again. So we need that honest a political analysis. More than ever.
▶ 0:47:59Mostly because the inr folks I think about deep expertise in relationships all around the world that are so important. Again, I know you were called by the president -- before you go forward. But I do think one of the things I hope I can support you is that you will stand up for those capabilities inside the state department. Not bend the analysis.
▶ 0:48:29We have seen too much of the state department I believe get hollowed out. So I look forward to this. I apologize. I have got past my time but I could not start without addressing that issue. Thank you. >> thank you, Mr. vice chairman. Before we move on to your statements, I need to ask you five customer questions that our committee poses to each nominee who appears before us. They require merely a simple yes or no answer for the record.
▶ 0:48:59However if you answer no, we will stop and you will have to provide a lengthy and no doubt unpersuasive explanation for your answer. Number one, do you agree to appear before the committee here and in other venues when invited? Please turn on your microphones for the benefit of our reported. >> yes. Yes. >> number two, if confirmed, do you agree to send officials from your office to appear before the committee and designated staff when invited? >> yes.
▶ 0:49:27>> number three, do you agree to provide documents and any other materials requested by the committee in order for it to carry out its oversight and legislative response abilities? >> yes. >> number four, will you ensure your office and your staff provide such material to the committee when requested? >> yes. >> number five, do you agree to inform you were fully briefed -- all members of this committee rather than just the chairman and vice chairman? >> yes. >> thank you all. Thank you both.
▶ 0:49:57After our hearing today for the benefit of senators, it is my intention to move to convene a committee business meeting as soon as possible to vote on these nominations and report them to the senate for a floor vote. We will now proceed to opening statements, after gavel for five statements, after gavel for fivr statements, after gavel for fiv. Statements, after gavel for fiv.
▶ 0:50:20Dr. Mason: Chairman cotton, by chairman warner, distinguished members of the committee, thank you for the opportunity to appear before you today to consider my nomination for director of the national reconnaissance office. I want to thank president trump, secretary hegseth, and directed gabbard for their trust and confidence in me to return to government service and fulfill this important national security position.
▶ 0:50:45Dr. Mason: I am here today with several members of my family, my wife, colleen, my mother, sandra, and my daughter, caroline. Family is my bedrock and I am grateful beyond words for their support, sacrifice, and unconditional love. First, I want to thank my parents who instilled in me the importance of being accountable, the value of hard work, and the promise of education.
▶ 0:51:12Dr. Mason: I am here today with my remarkable wife of 30 years, colleen. She inspires me every day and sets the example of selfless service to others in our family. Together, we are incredibly proud of our three children. John, joseph, and caroline, who are just now beginning their own life based on those same values. I was born only a few miles from here in alexandria and have since been a lifelong resident of virginia.
▶ 0:51:38Dr. Mason: Growing up, my parents pressed the importance of education to my sister and I and we became first-generation college graduates. For me, applying science to solve hard problems was the passion. This drive resulted in earning a phd from the university of regina which gave me a strong foundation to begin a career in national security.
▶ 0:51:58Dr. Mason: In my first job after graduate school, I led teams to develop, deploy, promote a global system linked by satellites for national security missions. Simply put, I fell in love with the mission and devoted the next 32 years of my career serving it through government and industry. Over these three decades, I honed my leadership experience, skills, and abilities to enable me to bring the right leadership at this moment in time to the nro.
▶ 0:52:30Dr. Mason: As president of the space and intelligence business, I led a multibillion dollar organization with over 4500 employees that provided advanced manufacturing, products, services, and solutions for every phase of the space-based missions. I was honored to serve as the first assistant director of national intelligence for systems and resource analysis, driving strategic capability investments, developing intelligence requirements, and conducting independent cost analysis on every major system acquisition.
▶ 0:53:00Dr. Mason: In that role, I also gained valuable insight across all intelligence missions from the strategic to the tactical, from counterterrorism to foreign military combat capabilities and everything in between. Today marks an incredibly important and exciting time for space not seen since the nro began the dawn of space intelligence in the 1960's. We are in a space renaissance where the pace of technology, the speed of innovation, and the promise of the future has drawn unprecedented investments for many sectors.
▶ 0:53:31Dr. Mason: The future of space and how our nation can use it for good seems limitless. The future of space, however, is also contested. Adversaries are in a race to build their own capabilities as well as counterspace measures capable of denying our nation's space missions. If confirmed, my priorities will focus on elevating nro strengths and emphasizing free -- the three major areas.
▶ 0:53:56Dr. Mason: The phrase, accelerate the next generation space architecture that integrates exquisite capabilities to produce integrated intelligence data and mission speed. The second, enable nro to push the leading edge of space technology and innovate faster. And the third, and sure enterprisewide resilience from space vehicles to the ground and everything that connects the agency. These priorities will only be achieved by a vibrant mission focused workforce and critical strategic partnerships.
▶ 0:54:28Dr. Mason: The nro workforce is the heartbeat of the organization and it demands full attention of its leadership to attract, develop, grow, and retain its world-class talent. To deliver success, nro strategic partnerships with the military, intelligence agencies, and our allies are essential and we must continue to work closely with an expanding space industry.
▶ 0:54:52Dr. Mason: All of these relationships must be built with strong communications, transparent processes, and a spirit of problem-solving. Chairman cotton, vice chairman warner, and distinguished members of the committee, I conclude these remarks by giving you my commitment that if confirmed, I will bring the best of my energy and skills in service to the nation to lead the nro with the strength it deserves and the future vision it demands. Thank you for your time today and I look forward to answering your questions. >> Mr. vance.
▶ 0:55:21Mr. Vance: Chairman cotton, vice chairman warner, and distinguished members of the committee. Thank you for the opportunity to appear before you today. I am honored to be considered for the position of assistant secretary of state for intelligence and research. I have too many people to think to give everyone the credit they deserve for getting me to this point. But I do want to express my gratitude to the president for his confidence and to the secretary of state for the trustee has placed in me.
▶ 0:55:52Mr. Vance: I would also like to thank my wife, alessandra, for her patience and living support over the course of my career. She is with me here today along with my oldest son, wyatt. I also want to thank my parents for the example they have set for me in life. My mother, a retired dickenson county virginia school teacher, taught me the value of education. My father, a former coal miner turned to small business owner, taught me about hard work and dedication to family.
▶ 0:56:20Mr. Vance: I know they are watching today from home with my three youngest children, morgan, alice, and mabel. I would like to thank the many colleagues from across the intelligence community, the state department, and the white house who have offered encouragement throughout the nomination process. If confirmed, it would be a tremendous privilege to lead the bureau of intelligence and research, an organization with a proud tradition of analytic rigor, independence, and service to U.S. foreign policy.
▶ 0:56:48Mr. Vance: I plays a unique and indispensable role within the intelligence community. Its officers provide objectives, policy relevance, intelligence analysis and support rooted in deep expertise and an understanding of diplomacy, and sharing policymakers receive assessments that are candid, timely, and free from political influence. At a time of increasing global competition, persistent conflict, and rapidly evolving technological challenges, the demand for high-quality intelligence has never been greater.
▶ 0:57:18Mr. Vance: If confirmed, my foremost priority would be to safeguard the integrity and independence of inr's analysis while ensuring it continues to meet the needs of the secretary, department, and congress. I also recognize the critical importance of partnership within the department in the intelligence community and with our friends and allies overseas.
▶ 0:57:41Mr. Vance: Inr's value is magnified when it understands the department and its needs, collaborates effectively across agencies, and integrates diplomatic insight with intelligence collection and analysis. If confirmed, I would work to strengthen those relationships. Equally important is our responsibility to congress. I am committed to transparency, timely engagement, and forthright communication.
▶ 0:58:07Mr. Vance: Robust oversight strengthens our intelligence institutions and I would view my relationship with congress as essential to the bureau's success. Finally, I would be deeply mindful of our obligation to the dedicated public servants of inr. Their expertise, professionalism, and quiet dedication underpin the bureau's reputation for excellence. If confirmed, I will prioritize supporting and developing this workforce. Ensuring they have the tools, leadership, and trust necessary to carry out their mission.
▶ 0:58:37Mr. Vance: Thank you again for considering my nomination. I look forward to your questions and to the opportunity to serve our country. Click thank you. Mr. vance, I want to turn to something the vice chairman pointed out. Inr has on occasion been the squeaky wheel in the intelligence community. More willing to dissent, less likely to go with the flow.
▶ 0:59:03Mr. Vance: The vice chairman pointed out one apt point and that was putin's intent to invade ukraine . I can recall clearly multiple hearings in which the heads of many other intelligence agencies beat around the bush and said we don't know. Maybe we could see him saying it's a training mission or what have you. Really? Because they have 100 50,000 troops on the border at christmas time.
▶ 0:59:28Mr. Vance: You don't normally do that to your troops and their families for a training mission and they brought a bunch of blood to the front lines and you don't normally bring fresh blood which is perishable in a number of weeks to a training mission as opposed to an actual military operation and inr was the only one willing to raise his hands like, yes, we think he is going to invade. He wrote a 5000 word essay about it last summer that said why he was going to invade.
▶ 0:59:56Mr. Vance: You have been around the state department a lot and the intelligence community a lot. To what do you attribute the traditional willingness to swim against the flow and make sometimes unpopular but ultimately correct assessments? >> Mr. chairman, thank you very much for the question. You are correct. Inr has long culturally defined itself as being an organization that prides itself on intellectual independence.
▶ 1:00:26Mr. Vance: I think that can be at least partially attributed to the fact that inr analysts are empowered in a way that analysts and other parts of the intelligence community are sometimes not. When I was an analyst in inr many years ago, I was a military analyst and I covered the entire chinese military but eventually we covered a guide to cover conventional forces and I moved to strategic forces and we had two people covering the entire chinese military for inr.
▶ 1:00:51Mr. Vance: Speaking for the state department, that sort of empowerment I think it encourages analysts. It gives them a sense of confidence and I think you can have that confidence in your analysts when you hire the best people possible. Inr has historically done a very good job of attracting elite level talent and retaining that talent.
▶ 1:01:12Mr. Vance: Should I be confirmed, one of my top priorities would be to continue that tradition of attracting the best people possible, ensuring that they are happy in their jobs, that we can retain them over the long term because deep expertise I think is one of the calling cards of the organization. It allows you to provide your analysts with a long leash and give them the freedom to go out and actually have opinions and to make the hard calls. >> thank you. Like I said, they have often swim against the tide.
▶ 1:01:42Mr. Vance: I don't agree with every single report I get from inr but when they dissent from an otherwise community wide consensus, I think they need to be taken quite seriously given their record of success. I want to touch on a more specific issue. The office of the geographer and global issues serves as the U.S. government's authoritative voice on sovereignty and geographic claims including for intelligence that is provided to policymakers. If confirmed, can you assure us that this office classwork will remain free of bias, accurately represent U.S. views and policies?
▶ 1:02:15Mr. Vance: >> senator, thank you very much for the question. I can absolutely assure you of that. The office of the geographer is a unique capability for inr, a service it provides to the department and to the entire U.S. government. It is essential. >> Dr. mason, the nro is currently hampered by a limited supply of launch providers and failures among those it is relying on to complete future constellations as we saw with blue origin recently.
▶ 1:02:44Mr. Vance: Are there systemic issues with nro's launch enterprise that you would like to address as director?
▶ 1:02:51Dr. Mason: Chairman cotton, I view of the diversity of launch providers as something that is essential for the nro and a space for us. Essential in a couple of ways. The first one is the government needs a diverse industrial base of launch access providers. The second piece is the launch infrastructure also needs to be diverse to make sure we are resilient in that regard.
▶ 1:03:17Dr. Mason: In terms of working with the space course which if confirmed, I will commit to do, understanding and increasing that competition in terms of the launch providers would be really important. When I look at the national security launch program, phase 3, there are three providers. Spacex, you l.a., and also the origin. Of course, different capacities for different types of vehicles.
▶ 1:03:44Dr. Mason: It is a growing market in my mind and one where even new entrants for different sized vehicles will be important as well so if confirmed, senator, I would commit to working with the space course to ensure we have lost resilience. >> thank you. We have had testimony on this committee and on the armed services committee that without those commercial providers that you mentioned, spacex, blue origin, we would not have the current lead over china in large capacity that we have so it is vital that we work with them and we get more fast.
▶ 1:04:15Dr. Mason: I chairman?
▶ 1:04:16Vice Chair Warner: I also -- vice chairman?
▶ 1:04:19Vice Chair Warner: Thank you. I want to make clear for the wreck of the fact that Dr. mason is from virginia, my hometown of alexandria, and Mr. vance got parents in one of the coolest communities in virginia, dickenson county in -- southwest virginia, it will have no effect on how I judge the qualifications.
▶ 1:04:38Chair Cotton: Virginia sucks all of the intelligence community's resources into its expanding vortex, leaving not even a few scraps for oregon and new mexico.
▶ 1:04:49Vice Chair Warner: Reserving the balance of my time, Dr. mason, quickly, what do you think? Should nro be merged into space course?
▶ 1:05:00Dr. Mason: Thank you for making that time. I enjoyed meeting you in days ago. Senator, vice chairman warner, no. I do not believe the nro should be part of the space course.
▶ 1:05:16Dr. Mason: When you look at the mission in terms of providing intelligence to the policymakers all the way to the war fighter, it is rightfully placed as both a defense agency and I see element and I believe that placement is a strength and one that if you were to move or move into a military service or agency, that we would risk degrading that strength. That strength is also because of its personnel in terms of as you well know, the composition of the nro.
▶ 1:05:49Dr. Mason: The third contract in the military, mostly the spaceports. This is important and I think it's a place to --
▶ 1:05:54Vice Chair Warner: 100% agree. I know you will be committed to maintaining that culture and that style pet I would like to get you on the record on this. I don't think we have maximize all of our capabilities as we sometimes have overlap and brush back between nro and nga. We have to make peace in the valley. I know you know about this. Please speak briefly to it.
▶ 1:06:16Dr. Mason: Thank you, vice. The relationship with nro and nga is interdependent. The two organizations are dependent upon each other to deliver successful intelligence. If confirmed, my commitment would be to examine the relationship. Where is it working and where is it not? Examine the processes and more importantly, to take a spirit of problem-solving to the relationship.
▶ 1:06:41Dr. Mason: To understand how it can be improved and to make sure we are doing the best for the nation so you have my commitment.
▶ 1:06:47Vice Chair Warner: I think there is an opportunity now. We have relatively new leadership who will be coming in and past frictions, we can leverage all that better. I want to get to Mr. vance but I also want to appreciate the fact that the chairman asked this and I wholeheartedly agree that we have to have diversity and variety in launch vehicles and the notion that we have to look at commercial you our space industry needs that support and
▶ 1:07:19Vice Chair Warner: I appreciate your comments. I really appreciate your comments and your opening statement about the independence and willingness to kind of get the best people possible. I hate to say two nice things about the chairman in the same five minutes but the fact that he also acknowledges that when nro gets it right, it's important.
▶ 1:07:42Vice Chair Warner: One of the things -- briefly just reiterated that again but more specifically, one of the things we have seen with inr, after doge, lots of folks got cut out and we have a number of requests for information. We have had unfortunately a lot of failure to respond to the oversight that I think is so critically important so give me a statement again about independence and talk about how you are going to respond to oversight from this committee.
▶ 1:08:15Vice Chair Warner: >> excuse me. Mr. vice chairman, thank you very much for the question. Should I be confirmed to the role, I would of course be more than eager to work with this committee to ensure all of our obligations are met in terms of keeping this committee apprised of all developments within inr and of course respond to the committee. Regarding independence and analytic independence in the organization, I am, you know, I got nearly two decades of experience.
▶ 1:08:44Vice Chair Warner: I can tell you that one of the things I am absolutely committed to his analytic independence and observing icd. In the course of my career, I served as a reviewer. I had the opportunity to serve at the center of the intelligence community. I served in various agencies. And one of the things I have always prided myself on is a commitment to professional ethics and an appreciation for the separation between policy and analysis.
▶ 1:09:13Vice Chair Warner: >> I appreciate that and I will not have time to ask you but I would say one of the things he responded to me for my callings was a need to have more commercial diplomacy and inr looking at not just governmental entities and military entities but our competition with china is often times in the commercial sector. I appreciate your comments.
▶ 1:09:32Chair Cotton: Senator cornyn. >> Dr. mason, I am of an age that I remember when neil armstrong landed on the moon and of course the space race with the old soviet union and everybody sort of understood the importance of that. That competition.
▶ 1:09:57Chair Cotton: But now of course, there is interest in an enduring lunar presence and I wonder if you might just take a minute to talk a little bit about why that should be important to the american people. That we establish an enduring lunar presence.
▶ 1:10:15Mr. Vance: Senator, in terms of our dominance in space, again, coming from the outside in, lunar presence is important for not only further planetary exploration, for furtherance of that exploration, but also in terms of you mentioned competition with other nations and our adversaries in understanding what needs to be done in terms of understanding
▶ 1:10:46Mr. Vance: The strategic placement of that. The president's executive order in terms of space superiority very clearly lays out that dates for which we will populate the moon and start the lunar base and then to conclude from the perspective of understanding any threats, characterizing those threats from very low earth orbit all the way to lunar so critically important. >> is it important that we get there first?
▶ 1:11:20Mr. Vance: As opposed to the chinese?
▶ 1:11:20Mr. Vance: I believe it is important.
▶ 1:11:23Sen. Cornyn: And why?
▶ 1:11:26Mr. Vance: First mover advantage in terms of space expiration are getting the high ground, getting the most coveted territory comes with getting their first and getting there substantially.
▶ 1:11:41Sen. Cornyn: And I know the chairman talked about the importance of commercial providers when it comes to various missions run by nasa and the nro. Explain why that has been important in terms of american dominance in space and the ability of the nra -- the nro to accomplish its mission.
▶ 1:12:04Mr. Vance: Senator, the commercial industry, space industry, and I want to say commercial -- when I say commercial, I speak very broadly, from commercial launch to commercial satellite communications to commercial providers, all major parts.
▶ 1:12:21Mr. Vance: When I left government 12 years ago, there were one or two companies and now because of low cost access to space, it has literally revolutionized how we are able to do the architecture we want to do and if confirmed, I would absolutely endorse that and try to strengthen it even further, expanding the capabilities of commercial industry which marks innovation and lower cost and gives us capabilities we could not do five to 10 years ago and now
▶ 1:12:52Mr. Vance: Will be an incredible part to a next-generation architecture.
▶ 1:12:55Sen. Cornyn: Mr. vance, I am going to pick your brain about your role as an expert on china as a china analyst and your work on china's nuclear capabilities and doctrine but since we are in a public setting here, obviously, we need to keep that in mind but can you speak to the results of president she's purging of his top military
▶ 1:13:25Sen. Cornyn: Leadership, what -- xi's purging of his top military leadership? Being able to do things like take taiwan by 2027? What should the american people know about president xi's capabilities and intentions?
▶ 1:13:45Mr. Vance: Thank you for that question. It is an important one. By my own count, I think over 100 senior chinese generals have been purged in the last several years. I think the central military commission is now down to two people. Xi jinping and one remaining chinese general. I think he probably should be nervous. He is in charge of internal discipline so he could be next. Of course another was purged earlier this year.
▶ 1:14:16Mr. Vance: It suggests in my mind that xi is not terribly compline -- confident about the ability of the pla at this point. The strategic rocket forces were particularly hard-hit. They would play an essential role in both deterring U.S. intervention and least in the minds of pla planners but also projecting power regionally so I would suggest it is encouraging from a U.S.
▶ 1:14:40Mr. Vance: Standpoint that hopefully xi is not terribly confident in pla abilities moving forward. It does not seem to be letting off the accelerator on the purges either.
▶ 1:14:49Sen. Cornyn: I assume we should relax in response.
▶ 1:14:52Mr. Vance: I would suggest not relaxing but this creates a window of opportunity for us to continue investing in our own capabilities and of course keeping in mind the situation and the taiwan strait is dynamic.
▶ 1:15:04Sen. Cornyn: Thank you.
▶ 1:15:06Chair Cotton: Senator wyden. >> thank you, Mr. chairman. I got a lot out of that. My opening question to you would be the ongoing national reconnaissance office director gave a speech about the agency's use of artificial intelligence. This is obviously a fast-moving technology. My own view is that there needs to be aggressive oversight.
▶ 1:15:33Chair Cotton: What is your view on the need for guardrails and safeguards with regard to the agency's use of artificial intelligence?
▶ 1:15:43Dr. Mason: Thank you. I appreciate you making the time this morning. The first part of this answer to this question is really the excitement that ai is generating. When we think about this next generation proliferated architecture, and I is going to enable us to do this at mission speed we are humans just cannot do it from the synchronization standpoint.
▶ 1:16:07Dr. Mason: More to your question, one of the things that director scalise has done that I have researched as part of my preparation is they have actually published in ai kind of governing document in terms of the strategies and in my mind, it is laid out very well. It talks about the objectives and about risk management. And it talks about governance.
▶ 1:16:30Dr. Mason: So if confirmed, I would follow that priority that having some type of guardrails and understanding with the limitations and the risks are is equally as important as understanding the benefits that ai can unlock.
▶ 1:16:43Vice Chair Warner: -- Sen.
▶ 1:16:46Wyden: Mr. vance, I did not get a chance to talk with you so I am really thinking about some of the documents I have read. Mr. chairman, chairman cotton, I would ask unanimous consent that an article written by Mr. vance entitled green houses and stones confronting europe's soft authoritarianism be entered into the public record.
▶ 1:17:03Chair Cotton: Without objection, it will be entered into the record immediately following Mr. vance's extensive written answers to your written questions.
▶ 1:17:14Sen. Wyden: Thank you, Mr. chairman. You wrote that european politicians should be more interested, and I quote, serving the native populations of the continent. My parents fled the nazis in the 1930's. Not all got out.
▶ 1:17:28Sen. Wyden: My dad was fleeing and became part of our army and was one of the famous richie boyd's and they escaped germany in the 19 30's when nazi anti-semitism was rooted in the myth that arians were native to germany and jews were not. I found this language in the article and as I say, we have not talked to at all I have in the article is deeply disturbing.
▶ 1:17:52Sen. Wyden: I asked you in written questions to clarify in your answers again just to me were quite disturbing. You wrote centuries of connection for people to be part of a community was what it takes. My first question to you is by this kind of calculus, how many hundreds of years do you believe it ought to take before people can be full citizens?
▶ 1:18:16Dr. Mason: Senator, thank you very much for the question. Of course, the essay was not an attempt to define or make a determination about who the native populations of europe are. The essay was actually about the owl and the annual human rights reports but in response to your question, what I would say is that determining national identity is something that is very complex and something that academics have struggled with, frankly, for centuries.
▶ 1:18:46Dr. Mason: If you look at italy in the mid-19th century during the process, an italian statesman said we have to make italians. So the notion of italian national identity was something that was consciously forged by the italian state over the course of many decades.
▶ 1:19:01Dr. Mason: In contrast to that, I would point to the bask and say basque people have lived in basque country for thousands of years so there is a tension in the social science literature between the conception of the nation as a fundamentally cultural entity and the nation as a political entity.
▶ 1:19:20Dr. Mason: In reality, most nations fall somewhere in between including both elements of civic national identity as well as a sense of cultural continuity in connection to place that I think it is commonly associated with nations.
▶ 1:19:33Sen. Wyden: Let me see if I can get one other question in. You wrote politicians are only legitimate if they protect "historical, cultural communities," so it was kind of more of the same but I want to close with the final question. Apparently, you called western europe authoritarian and argued that repression in western europe is similar to the soviet union. Do you believe that today?
▶ 1:20:00Sen. Wyden: >> I think I referred to the late soviet union and I am not a scholar of soviet studies but there is a very distinct difference between the character of state oppression in the late soviet union in the early soviet union.
▶ 1:20:16Sen. Wyden: You don't believe it today? >> I stand by what I wrote in that article and I think everything I wrote is entirely consistent with U.S. policy.
▶ 1:20:26Chair Cotton: I will have to observe. I have the article here in front of me that this critique of the bureau of democracy, human rights, and labor is apt. They have long undercover at the lack of free speech rights in many european nations. I don't think they are like soviet russia but most european nations don't have anything like our first amendment.
▶ 1:20:52Chair Cotton: I remember being at the munich security conference with john mccain in february of 2016 right after large populations of migrants has sexually assaulted german women across the country on new year's eve and these german officials tried to deny that it happened at the very time that they were trying to suppress online commentary about it. So I am not going to answer for every single thing Mr.
▶ 1:21:15Chair Cotton: Vance wrote in his article but I would say it's not at -- and I'll beyond the pale to say european nations should do a better job of protecting the free speech rights of their citizens. >> thank you chairman. Thank you for your willingness to serve and your prior service. Dr. mason, are there any activities currently underway at the nro that in light of your vision need to be changed or revisited?
▶ 1:21:44Dr. Mason: Senator, when I look across the enormity of what they are doing, I would first describe it as nro is engaged in generational opportunity and a generational challenge. With respect to the next generation architecture. So if confirmed, the areas that I would look at to ensure that we are getting proper attention is actually leading change. Nro has -- is a remarkable workforce. It is arguably a national treasure.
▶ 1:22:16Dr. Mason: Through any period of change, having the importance of doing it very intentionally, understanding what needs to be done, why it needs to be done is an area that if confirmed, I would absolutely give attention to in that regard. >> can you highlight some of the best practices at the nro that should remain distinct from the spaceports?
▶ 1:22:38Dr. Mason: I'm sorry, senator. Best practices? >> that should remain distinct from the spaceports.
▶ 1:22:46Dr. Mason: I do believe nro should remain distinct. >> how about practices at nro that should be kept separate? Is there any you would particularly list? >> in terms of practices, I would not necessarily list any of those. It should be kept separate. Clearly, there are two missions that are well defined from the spaceports perspective. Nro, providing intelligence to the war fighter.
▶ 1:23:13Dr. Mason: What I would also say is that the relationship with nro and spaceports is also very important and the collaboration is really the cornerstone of dominance. If confirmed, I would attempt to make sure the relationship stays vibrant and also stays very healthy in terms of resource allocation. >> Dr.
▶ 1:23:31Dr. Mason: Mason, in your prehearing questions that you answered, you highlight the difference between the national intelligence program, the military intelligence program, and how you previously worked with both the dni and the pentagon to ensure the right balance and oversight of those intelligence programs so based on your experience, what types of activities are more appropriately resourced verses -- how does that affect the acquisition process and oversight of those activities?
▶ 1:24:03Dr. Mason: Based on my experience, there were several different areas and actually, we formed, at the time, the working group to give exactly what you were doing. There are no clear guidelines when way were together but some examples are, for example, if the capability was being developed by the nro, where the military needed more love to decrease latency, in other words, getting the satellites back in terms of certain target faster, that would be an area that would be augmented at the
▶ 1:24:35Dr. Mason: Time in terms of them. I cannot speak to the current lay down in terms of how are things done but the closer you get to war fighter support in that regard, probably the more it is applicable. >> what do you think some of the biggest challenges are or the single biggest challenge, if you well, that nro faces in this increasingly complex space domain?
▶ 1:24:56Dr. Mason: Without question, it is contested space paid when I left government, they were just as a nation getting religion on space protection. Now, it is pervasive.
▶ 1:25:12Dr. Mason: Our adversaries are developing capabilities both in terms of their own as well as countermeasures so without question, space protection is the biggest challenge I'm going back to one of my priorities up front, that is accomplished through enterprise resilience. In other words, not just space vehicles, not just the ground. It is the connection points. It is kinetic. It is cyber. All of the above. If confirmed, enterprise resilience is a scenario I will take a deep look into to ensure we are protected now and well into the future.
▶ 1:25:42Dr. Mason: >> Mr. vance, if confirmed, what aspects would you keep in place and what changes would you make to enhance the effectiveness of inr?
▶ 1:25:52Dr. Mason: -- Mr. vance: senator, thank you very much for the question. Should I be confirmed, I would be eager to sit down with the front office and to hear their input but one of the priorities for me would be revitalizing at ticket -- academic outreach.
▶ 1:26:08Dr. Mason: That is essential for the intellectual life of the bureau and I am not exact to share with the best strategy is for that and it's something I would like to consult with the front office and office chiefs with to make a determination for that but I believe a robust relationship between inr industry, the scientific and academic community is essential. >> thank you and thank you to your families as well.
▶ 1:26:30Chair Cotton: Senator heinrich. >> Dr. mason, congratulations. I know how close the air force and nro work in my home state when nro is an important ground station. If you are confirmed, would you consider visiting the new mexico nro station as well as potentially deepening collaboration with the air force research laboratory there?
▶ 1:26:59Chair Cotton: >> senator, if confirmed, I would look forward to visiting new mexico and those facilities.
▶ 1:27:04Sen. Heinrich: In europe, in the answers to the prehearing questions, you noted that threats to our space and ground systems are growing. Talk to me about how you are experiencing government and industry. How would you approach the issues of resiliency and survivability of space and ground systems at nro? >> the enterprise approach really is just that.
▶ 1:27:32Sen. Heinrich: In terms of thinking about the different aspects of the system. And again, we tend to spend a lot of times in terms of the space vehicles and the kinetic threat but the reality is that is just one piece of it. Whether that is through electronic warfare, whether it's through jamming and quite honestly, the one that has the least barrier to entry is cyber. And that is the one that has my full attention. In terms of industry experience, clearly zero trust systems are the gold standard.
▶ 1:28:00Sen. Heinrich: I understand that in the government as well and if confirmed, I would want to do very early, taking a good look at the posture to make sure we are well protected to include getting third-party assessments as well. >> current director's police has said that given the diversity of the user community, a unity of effort as opposed to a unity of command most efficiently leverages resources to
▶ 1:28:31Sen. Heinrich: Accomplish national security objectives. Is that an approach that you agree with? >> yes, senator. The approach is working very well in my mind. Looking from the outside in and one where I would continue as well.
▶ 1:28:41Sen. Heinrich: Talk to me a little bit about, you know, what you learned in your private sector positions and what we should be -- how that can be applied in your new role as director. >>
▶ 1:29:03Dr. Mason: The relationship between industry and nro critical. Most well-run companies want predictability, understanding where the government is headed, not just a year out, but five years, 10 years, is important in terms of making those investments. Most industry once to earn a good fair profit, as well as people awarded if they perform well.
▶ 1:29:34Dr. Mason: The main thing is understanding the forecast in terms of requirements, predictability and consistent communication throughout the acquisition cycle.
▶ 1:29:42Sen. Heinrich: Mr. vance, your career included a number of important analyst positions as well as your time in the diplomatic security service. But obviously, this role oversees roughly 300 full-time positions. Talk to me about your management experience and give me a sense of what the largest number of full-time employees you have managed simultaneously.
▶ 1:30:11Mr. Vance: Senator, thank you for the question. You are correct my career has been focused largely on analysis. Begin at the national security agency, odni, inr. In ds, I was the assistant regional security officer in which I managed fairly large teams, one inkabul, 45 afghans, the threat intelligence fusion
▶ 1:30:41Mr. Vance: Center. I think we had about 20 U.S. contractors and federal employees under my leadership there. Correct I spent most of my career as an analyst, but I do have some management experience as well, sir.
▶ 1:30:56Sen. Heinrich: A former director of the bureau of intelligence and research ella mccarthy wrote last july about the budget and personnel cuts the bureau faced in 2025. She in her analysis deplored the loss of institutional memory, regional fluency, academic rigor, and the highly experienced people that understand intelligence and the missy, her words, are two sides to the same coin.
▶ 1:31:26Sen. Heinrich: Are you concerned about the personnel loss that has occurred in this department?
▶ 1:31:32Mr. Vance: Thank you for the question. Retention would be my number one priority where I confirmed. Ensuring we have continuity, especially in critical roles and functional areas as well as regional areas is essential. It is something I'm concerned about and one of the first things I want to look at.
▶ 1:31:55Sen. Heinrich: Thank you.
▶ 1:31:56Chair Cotton: Senator lankford.
▶ 1:31:59Sen. Lankford: Thank you gentlemen. This is a challenging process and time consuming and a lot of paperwork. I appreciate you going through this. Mr. vance, you have had a unique role in serving with diplomat security as well. That is a unique role.
▶ 1:32:23Sen. Lankford: In this role, between inr and diplomatic security, I'm not sure there has been a lot of communication between the two. Should there be, and if so what should that be?
▶ 1:32:36Mr. Vance: Thank you for asking that question, I think it is important. You are quite correct. Historically there has not been a tremendous amount of dialogue between those two bureaus. When I was at inr, I didn't know ds existed. They just checked my credentials at the door. But they handle embassies overseas. When was and realized I would try it.
▶ 1:33:08Mr. Vance: Was there six years or so. My vision for how these bureaus can collaborate is, inr analysts are exceptional providing strategic level insight. Ds has its own intelligence organization which I think is excellent at providing technical support which that bureau relies upon for threat indicators and warning.
▶ 1:33:28Mr. Vance: If you synthesize those two, you get a complete picture that can allow senior department officials and the seventh and sixth floors to make informed decisions about how we allocate resources to augment security overseas, prevent attacks. One of the most important responsibilities is to ensure our diplomatic personnel serving overseas are well protected.
▶ 1:33:52Sen. Lankford: I would assume the diplomatic security folks want to be primary users of that information or have access to it or have the ability to ask the questions, do we know anything about x? Because if they are moving people are trying to sustain security, they would like to have a heads up and is that happening now? How would communication work so they could ask those questions?
▶ 1:34:20Mr. Vance: Thank you for that question as well. I don't have a good insight to that. When I was in ds, we had a number of organizations providing tactical level support to us overseas. I'm not clear on how much dialogue there is between the two bureaus on this. I think in some cases there is a classification challenge.
▶ 1:34:45Mr. Vance: In the course of my ic career, starting at 2002, there was a proliferation of sub compartments which creates dissemination challenges, especially for those overseas. That would be a challenge to be overcome in some instances, but one of the things I'm excited about is, should I be confirmed to this role is, speaking about how to strengthen bureau relationships.
▶ 1:35:12Sen. Lankford: That is helpful it I apologize I had to step out for a moment. Dr. mason, this might have been asked. If so, I apologize. That deals with d conflicting and tasking of commercial intelligence. Right now in so many other areas, nro is everyone's favorite entity that to give them a job to do and say, we need your help.
▶ 1:35:41Sen. Lankford: But every other entity wants a piece of that. This unique role in being able to say they want this, they want this. How do we accomplish all that? How do you begin to establish the priorities and how to de-conflict and make decisions of yes to this group, no to this group or two years from now for this group?
▶ 1:36:03Dr. Mason: Senator lankford, one a look at the responsibilities of the nro in terms of the nga, nro clearly is responsible for building the capabilities and capacity to respond to those requirements. I'm very mindful that the task priorities come from the functional managers. In the case of commercial imagery, nga and the other through nsa.
▶ 1:36:36Dr. Mason: If confirmed I would view my responsibilities making sure that capacity is there, and it is capable of growing.
▶ 1:36:42Sen. Lankford: But you have to decide what capacity to build this some challenge, that everyy wants it done today. You have been in the private sector where you can make a decision today and try to do that the next couple months. Public sector even with nro, it is a different challenge to say, how do we move and what are we going to build?
▶ 1:37:04Dr. Mason: I see the base of your question now. In terms of architecture for today versus tomorrow. That is working closely with the functional manager. When I was in the odni we were responsible for ic and it tackled issue. The role of the functional manager is stepping out in terms of what does this look like five years from now in terms of threats.
▶ 1:37:33Dr. Mason: There is a sophisticated process in terms of priorities of national intelligence perspective. I would rely if confirmed on that relationship, understanding what is coming, the odni, the nga and nro's as the provider to make sure we are building those capabilities in the timeframe we need.
▶ 1:37:52Sen. Lankford: Thank you.
▶ 1:37:54Chair Cotton: Senator king.
▶ 1:37:56Sen. King: Senator warner, you mentioned Mr. mason is from alexandria. We found out we grew up in the same neighborhood in alexandria. Dr. mason, there has been some talk about the use of commercial satellites and that has been in development since you left and now come back. Talk to me about how important that is. The philosophy I heard is, buy first, build second.
▶ 1:38:24Sen. King: Do you subscribe to using commercial operations where they are appropriated and useful as opposed to having our own well-defined satellites and architecture?
▶ 1:38:37Dr. Mason: Senator king, thank you for making the time to learn more about our collective backgrounds. One of my top priorities from my opening statement is this next generation proliferated and explicit architecture. An architecture the current director and nro is on their way to achieving. When I look at that architecture, there is a need for both.
▶ 1:39:08Dr. Mason: A time for explicit and a time for proliferation. To the heart of your question, we had to look differently at our requirements. May be a commercial system doesn't satisfy 100% of the requirements.
▶ 1:39:22Sen. King: 80% solution.
▶ 1:39:23Dr. Mason: At a much cheaper cost usually an faster time.
▶ 1:39:28Sen. King: Proliferation is in itself a defense. One of the issues is, space is now contested. Proliferation makes it a more complicated targeting problem for adversaries, correct?
▶ 1:39:44Dr. Mason: Yes, proliferation is a measure of resilience.
▶ 1:39:49Sen. King: Final question on space. I see opportunities for coordination with allies. It is space and members of this committee is that it australia several years ago, particularly with the five eyes. I'm thinking about budgets, and how do we conserve our precious tax dollars.
▶ 1:40:13Sen. King: Is there opportunity for doing more coordination and cooperation in space architecture with new zealand, australia, u.k., canada?
▶ 1:40:21Dr. Mason: It is my understanding and experience that relationships with the five eyes are central and integral. To your point about burden sharing, it is important to make sure we have a good balance relative to what the U.S. is bringing as well as the other five eyes.
▶ 1:40:48Dr. Mason: If confirmed I will examine those and make sure they are robust and vibrant, balanced.
▶ 1:40:56Sen. King: I was sure it was deeply classified, was afraid to talk to anybody about it, but turns out it is a netflix series. So that burst that idea. Mr. vance, in your opening statement you used independence four or five times which I appreciate. You used the phrases candid, free of political influence, timely p this is not an academic concern.
▶ 1:41:26Sen. King: The past 60 years many of our foreign policy disasters that cost american lives were based upon not faulty intelligence, but intelligence that was biased in favor of the views of the policy in charge at the time. Vietnam, bay of pigs, iraq.
▶ 1:41:45Sen. King: Talk to me about the importance of the integrity of the analytic process and the willingness to tell the president of the united states or national intelligence director or this committee something we don't want to hear that is inconsistent with our policy preference.
▶ 1:42:03Mr. Vance: Senator, thank you for that important question. Analytic integrity, a willingness to talk candidly about the intelligence record is at the core of intelligence work. Policy makers are done no favors by being told things they want to hear. We do them a greater service when we speak authoritatively about the content of the intelligence record, and share that in a respectful and helpful way.
▶ 1:42:33Mr. Vance: One thing I can tell you about my career, in the course of 24 years in the federal government, one thing I have never been accused of is bending the intelligence record to prove a policy narrative inr candidly about the content of the record.
▶ 1:42:51Sen. King: Who won the presidential election in 2020?
▶ 1:42:57Mr. Vance: Joe biden was certified as president of the united states in 2020.
▶ 1:43:02Sen. King: Did he win the election?
▶ 1:43:04Mr. Vance: Joe biden was certified as the president of the united states in january 2021.
▶ 1:43:10Sen. King: I'm uncomfortable with your discussion about independence if you will not answer that directly.
▶ 1:43:15Chair Cotton: Senator kelly.
▶ 1:43:20Sen. Kelly: I want to follow-up on what the chairman was getting to earlier and senator king about valuing dissent and speaking truth to power, something I have valued in my career in the navy and at nasa. I think you understand the best solutions come from encouraging people to speak up. When they disagree.
▶ 1:43:49Sen. Kelly: What senator king just brought up is a specific and very public case of individuals were not willing to speak truth to power. I was going to ask you an example of a time you have actually done this in your career and just right now you gave the counterexample, which is, this election was certified.
▶ 1:44:14Sen. Kelly: There were dozens and dozens of lawsuits and we hear that same answer repeatedly from folks that are nominated by this administration to come before a committee who are told specifically told, to give an answer that is not consistent with the truth. I want to encourage you after this hearing is over and we are about to include -- conclude, I want you to really think about that.
▶ 1:44:43Sen. Kelly: You talked about the independence of this agency and the job you are going in, assuming your confirmed, but I know for myself and others, that gives us a lot of pause when it seems like, when necessary, you will support the concept of valuing dissent, but in the moment, it became very hard for you to do it.
▶ 1:45:09Sen. Kelly: Having said that I have another question I want to get to about north korea. Your background is in proliferation, east asia. You talked in your opening statement about china. I'm concerned we don't provide enough attention to north korea as a threat.
▶ 1:45:32Sen. Kelly: Could you talk a little about how inr, maybe 30, 45 seconds, how inr will contribute to the work and if confirmed, how you can work with us to where we can do a more focused and better job there?
▶ 1:45:48Mr. Vance: Thank you for the question, it is very important. North korea has expanded significantly since its initial nuclear test in 2006. It would be a mistake to not just view them as a traditional proliferation challenge, but assessing capabilities and doctrine as a deployed force as opposed to simply a proliferation challenge.
▶ 1:46:16Sen. Kelly: Thank you, for Mr. mason I have about two minutes left. You will be filling some big shoes taking over for chris scalise, somebody I've known for over 20 years, maybe 25 years. He has done a fantastic job. Just want to get into, we had a mishap, blue origin, with their new rocket. Have you thought about the implication of that?
▶ 1:46:40Sen. Kelly: You talk about the high end exquisite assets, the vehicle got damaged at the pad. Have you thought from your perspective going into this job, assuming your confirmed, how that has an impact on our ability to get a proliferated and exquisite consolation?
▶ 1:46:59Dr. Mason: Senator, yes I have. When we look at the launch providers and there are three in this category, spacex, ula, and blue origin. We are reminded this is still rocket science and others are more mature, they had advantages but we need companies like blue origin to be successful.
▶ 1:47:29Dr. Mason: Space force put out a press release announcing they awarded a contract to blue origin not to the heavy lift but a different vehicle. For the nro's need it sends a clear message this is important to us, industrial base is needed, we needed to be resilient.
▶ 1:47:47Sen. Kelly: So you see a quick path forward to them getting back on the step?
▶ 1:47:52Dr. Mason: I haven't researched the details in terms of what the mishap was. I did read the damage to the pad was not as extensive as thought which is promising. If confirmed I look forward to understanding that in more detail and working with partners.
▶ 1:48:08Sen. Kelly: I think rebuilding the pad is the long pole and probably takes longer than trying to fix the issue they had with the rocket. Thank you Mr. chairman.
▶ 1:48:23Chair Cotton: I want to add, echoing what was said, you will get confirmed, but your ability to get confirmed as a bipartisan leader on part of our intelligence community, has always had the courage to speak truth to power. You took a giant step back with me today. Thank you. >> thank you, gentlemen.
▶ 1:48:50Chair Cotton: It is my intention to hold the committee vote on your nomination as soon as possible. Therefore for planning purposes any senator that wishes to submit questions for the record after today's hearing lee's do so by close of business tomorrow. Thank you all. This hearing is adjourned. [captioning performed by the national captioning institute, which is responsible for its caption content and accuracy. Visit ncicap.org]