▶ 0:22:44>> the committee will please come toward her. I apologize for being late. There was a business meeting that went long so I apologize. First, I think the nominees for being here and their families for agreeing to the sacrifice they are making to the country.
▶ 0:23:08The national labor relations board is tasked with resolving labor disputes, protecting workers rights under federal law. Under the biden administration they overturn decades of precedent. We now have the opportunity to put workers first and maintain the board's form.
▶ 0:23:32They confirmed to the nlrb, they will be cast to clear the backlog of cases to restore certainty. In addition to the nominees we will hear from Dr. brett matsumoto.
▶ 0:23:52The current job report process is not working with significant questions to the numbers months later resulting in large swings in the stock market in retirement portfolios. They will be tasked with bringing transparency, innovation, accuracy to our nation's economic data. Thank you all for being here. Thank you for the families for the support they give you.
▶ 0:24:18Sen. Sanders: Thank you. At a time of massive income where the people have never done better, struggling to put food on the table.
▶ 0:24:39Sen. Sanders: Workers all over this country, the decent working conditions, decent benefits. Understand they can't do it alone. They need solidarity. While workers want to join unions we are seeing an incredibly -- incredible ways of company breaking the law. You want to form a union?
▶ 0:25:10Sen. Sanders: We will fire you, moved to china. All because you want to be part of a union. It takes them forever to get a first contract. Workers have become demoralized and they give up on the process. Forming a union is a constitutional right.
▶ 0:25:33Sen. Sanders: In order for them to be successful they need a national labor relations board that stands up for them. Unfortunately that has not been the case. The anti-worker effort has been led by president trump who has ripped up the union contracts.
▶ 0:25:58Sen. Sanders: He has rescinded the federal role that provided overtime pay to more than 4 million workers. In the first year in office he shut down the only federal agency that could hold corporations accountable for illegal unionbusting. This morning we will be considering two of president trump's nominees.
▶ 0:26:30Sen. Sanders: Mr. chairman, I support the nomination but I oppose Mr. macy's nomination. He has spent most of his career representing the interests of management. Further a senior official at the department of labor, he has worked on policies that undermine working clearly.
▶ 0:26:56Sen. Sanders: He worked on my proposed rule that would deny over one million home care workers, the right to minimum wage and overtime pay. We need members who don't undermine them. The bureau of labor statistics, a very important position.
▶ 0:27:26Sen. Sanders: President trump made the unacceptable decision to fire the commissioner because he absurdly claimed she rigged and manipulated employment statistics across the line. The doctor was confirmed to the senate with 86-8 with an overwhelming majority voting for confirmation.
▶ 0:27:59Sen. Sanders: I will not support the nomination of Dr. matsumoto. Thank you.
▶ 0:28:10Chair Cassidy: We are joined by james macey of the national labor relations board. He will be introduced by our colleague, senator ron johnson. I noticed you post -- both pronounce johnson the same way. Must be a wisconsin thing. That is only if you are from louisiana. I yield to my colleague, senator johnson. We look forward to hearing from you.
▶ 0:28:45Sen. Johnson: It is my honor to introduce jim macy, to serve on the national labor relations board. His hometown is oshkosh, wisconsin. He was my companies outside counsel on labor matters and we served together on multiple boards. He is a consummate professional.
▶ 0:29:12Sen. Johnson: Jim brings more than four decades of experience grounded in both deed professional expertise and a lifelong commitment to public service. He was educated in the state's public schools graduating in the top 10% of his high school class. He graduated summa cum laude from the university of wisconsin with a bachelors of science degree.
▶ 0:29:39Sen. Johnson: He earned his law degree through the university of wisconsin law school working multiple jobs to finance his education. He was a partner at several prominent milwaukee-based law firms. He chaired multiple labor groups and had consisted recognition from best lawyers in america. He has admitted to practice in wisconsin and florida.
▶ 0:30:07Sen. Johnson: Jim has always demonstrated a strong commitment to his community. He served in numerous leadership roles including share of the chamber of commerce, chair of the committee supporting the arts. He has also contributed to his time in local school foundation, a zoning board of review in the organization dedicated to expanding opportunities for individuals.
▶ 0:30:37Sen. Johnson: Beyond his retirement, he continues his service with the department of labor. He served as senior counselor and the secretary's office acting as administrator for the ways in our division and currently is director of the office of worker's compensation. He has committed to advancing the mission.
▶ 0:31:03Sen. Johnson: Jim is a devoted father of three sons, a youth sports coaching official as one would expect a loyal wisconsin badger and green bay packers fan. Jim is a connoisseur of wisconsin's's finest cheese kurds. His depth of experience in the workplace make him a strong and well qualified nominee for the national labor relations board.
▶ 0:31:32Sen. Johnson: I highly recommend members of this committee support his nomination, thank you.
▶ 0:31:40Mr. Macy: Good morning, thank you for the opportunity to appear before you today. I also like to thank senator johnson for being here today. I greatly support the friendship. I have the full support of my sons, jack and austin, they are not able to be here today. Jack is attending U.S. marine officer school in quantico.
▶ 0:32:10Mr. Macy: Ben is back at home working for the city of oshkosh. I am proud of all of them. I'm truly honored to be here and grateful for president trump for nominating me to serve on the relations board. I am a lifelong wisconsinite and should the senate seat fit, they would be the first member from wisconsin since the board was established under the act.
▶ 0:32:41Mr. Macy: While one was appointed to the predecessor, he served four months consisted of the establishment. It would be an incredible privilege to serve incoming from the midwest. I attended the university of wisconsin la crosse and earn my law degree.
▶ 0:33:05Mr. Macy: I am a product of strong wisconsin public school systems. My parents taught me the values of hard work, honesty, education, respect for all people. Those values have guided me throughout my life and career. I practice labor and employment law for more than 40 years.
▶ 0:33:31Mr. Macy: During that time I participated in hundreds of collective bargaining negotiations. Tried hundreds of administrative cases, appeared before most if not all of the state and federal labor agencies. Worked with employees and represented a union across many different industries. I also acted as an independent hearing officer of 100 separate due process cases.
▶ 0:34:00Mr. Macy: Those experiences taught me the importance of listening carefully, respecting different points of view and building on common ground, finding practical solutions. They also gave me a deep appreciation for the role of the national labor relations act and what it plays in promoting stable labor-management relations.
▶ 0:34:23Mr. Macy: More recently have had the privilege of serving at the department of labor first as senior counselor to the secretary's office and then as acting administrator. Currently as the director of the office of worker's compensation programs. In each of these roles my focus remained on following the law and forwarding the president's initiative in helping the american workers.
▶ 0:34:51Mr. Macy: I could tell you all you could all be proud of the many dedicated employees in each of these agencies and the work they are doing every day again in support of the american workers. I've always appreciated the vital role of the national labor relations board protecting the rights of all employees to freely associate and bargain collectively as they decide while promoting stability and labor-management relations.
▶ 0:35:19Mr. Macy: I have always appreciated the vital role the national labor relations board plays in supporting commerce. Workers deserve to know their statutory rights will be protected. Employers of labor organizations of all sizes deserve clarity, competence, and impartiality for government. I also recognize the importance of timely decision-making.
▶ 0:35:46Mr. Macy: Delays could be difficult for all parties involved in a labor dispute while every case must be considered carefully, I believe the board should strive to resolve matters as efficiently as possible and provide prompt, fair adjudication. I complement current members murphy, mayor, prouty for the work they have done. I opportunity to be consistent if confirmed.
▶ 0:36:15Mr. Macy: It would be a tremendous honor to serve on the national labor relations board. I pledge that if confirmed I will faithfully uphold my oath of office and discharge my responsibilities with integrity, fairness, independence. Thank you for the opportunity to appear before you today. I look forward to your questions with the exception of maybe cheese kurds.
▶ 0:36:42Chair Cassidy: Next we are joined by david prouty, nominee on the national labor relations board. You will be introduced by our colleague, senator chris van hollen.
▶ 0:36:58Sen. Van Hollen: Thank you. I'm honored to join you to once again introduce david prouty who hails from my home state of maryland and has been nominated by the president to serve a second term on the national labor relations board. It's he has a long history of pairing nominees to ensure these defendant agencies remain balanced.
▶ 0:37:28Sen. Van Hollen: I appreciate the chairman for continuing that tradition by considering the nominations of Mr. mason and Mr. prouty today. Five years ago when he first came before the senate he brought with him a distinguished career as a leading labor attorney. His professional life has been devoted to representing working people and defending their rights guaranteed under labor laws.
▶ 0:37:51Sen. Van Hollen: Over the last five years he has served as a member of the nlrb during a consequential period for american labor relations. The board has confronted significant questions involving organizing rights, collective bargaining, the interpretation of the national labor relations act in a rapidly changing economy.
▶ 0:38:13Sen. Van Hollen: Throughout his tenure he has exemplified the board's mission by enforcing the labor laws in order to promote stability and labor-management relations and encourage collective bargaining. His service reflects an understanding that the board benefits from a diversity of professional experiences and viewpoints.
▶ 0:38:36Sen. Van Hollen: He has served alongside workers advancing collective bargaining and spent the last five years working alongside colleagues whose backgrounds include management side labor law, government service, together they have protected and promoted the rights of workers with the law. The work often involves issues that generate strong views from workers, employers, policymakers . Members of this committee know that.
▶ 0:39:04Sen. Van Hollen: One of the hallmarks of public service is the willingness to approach these questions thoughtfully and engage seriously and faithfully apply the law. He has proven his ability to do just that over the last five years as a board member. Whether serving as advocate, counselor, board member he has dedicated his professional life to america's workers and I appreciate his willingness to continue to serve colleagues.
▶ 0:39:34Sen. Van Hollen: It is for those reasons and many more I should say that I'm honored to present to you one of the president's nominees to serve on the national labor relations board, david prouty.
▶ 0:39:54Mr. Prouty: Thank you for the opportunity to appear before you. I'm honored by your consideration for me for a second term as a member of the national labor relations board. I want to thank senator van hollen for his kind introduction. I'm joined here today by my brother, douglas prouty, I should note he's the president of his teachers union.
▶ 0:40:22Mr. Prouty: My wife is recovering from a broken ankle. She is watching remotely as are my sisters and children. Also no doubt watching are the members of my outstanding staff at the nlrb as well as many colleagues from our great agency. Since 2021i built a record of decisions and statements as a board member. Probably the most relevant information for you to consider.
▶ 0:40:50Mr. Prouty: I will make a few brief points nonetheless. First, I'm happy to report that since the senate confirmed the nominations of my new colleagues when they took office in january, not only was a quorum of the nlrb restored so the board could return to issuing decisions but we have also been prolific in doing so. Since early january we have reduce the backlog of 591 cases down to 396.
▶ 0:41:20Mr. Prouty: In the meantime 370 four new cases came through the door. We have decided 369 new cases since the quorum was restored. The board operates best with its full complement of members. Of course it's in my self-interest to say so. I hope they will act promptly and favorably. So that we could keep that momentum going. It has been an honor to serve as a member of the board for the past five years.
▶ 0:41:50Mr. Prouty: I have come to have a greater appreciation for the nlrb, its history, for the dedicated government employees who are committed to enforcing the rights of workers protected by the national labor relations act. As my resume makes clear I spent the first 35 years of my legal career as a union side lawyer.
▶ 0:42:13Mr. Prouty: I represented a spectrum of workers from clothing, textile, laundry employees, restaurant staff, major league baseball players, building doormen, janitors. I negotiated tons of collective bargaining agreements with those employers. I spent the past five years neutral applying the law to each case. Every person brings different life experiences to this task.
▶ 0:42:42Mr. Prouty: My understanding is no doubt shaped by the years I spent litigating practice cases and union votes collection cases. I believe the public and the parties to appear by the board are all best served by having a variety of viewpoints within the labor-management field. The current board for instance consists of myself along with scott mayor and jim murphy, a career lawyer.
▶ 0:43:11Mr. Prouty: Each of us about to be confirmed by the senate will approach our jobs from a different point of view. I'm proud of my record as a board member. No doubt you will have questions about the cases decided and I welcome them. Whether you agree or disagree with my positions I could insure you each position was carefully studied by each board member involved and was released only after thorough consideration.
▶ 0:43:42Mr. Prouty: As you will see I haven't always agreed with my board colleagues. I've always voted the courage of my convictions and the one promise I could make is I will continue to call them as I see them. Nlrb members, republicans and democrats very often agree. Historically well over 80% of the cases are decided unanimously by a 3-0 vote.
▶ 0:44:12Mr. Prouty: In over 230 contested cases we have decided since january only nine times has anyone, admittedly usually me, dissents his syrian as I said five years ago I believe in the guiding principles behind the national labor relations act. They were intended to encourage the practice and procedure of collective bargaining.
▶ 0:44:37Mr. Prouty: I believe that everyone, employees, employers, union, the public at large is best served when workers and their employers could sit across the table from one another as equals and negotiate an open, respectful, creative manner. Thank you and I would be happy to answer any questions you have.
▶ 0:44:58Chair Cassidy: Next we are joined by Dr. brett matsumoto. The commissioner of labor statistics. He is a research economist at the division of price index. He has specialized in research to support the consumer price index, particularly medical research. He received his masters degree from the university of delaware and phd of economics from north carolina chapel hill. Thank you for being with us.
▶ 0:45:31Dr. Massa Moto: It is --
▶ 0:45:39Mr. Matsumoto: It is an honor to be here. I would like to thank all of the people who are responsible for getting me to where I am today. I would like to thank everyone who made positive statements about my nomination. When president trump announced the intent to nominate me there was a lot of media interests.
▶ 0:46:10Mr. Matsumoto: Reading stories about myself is something I'm used to, I was humbled by the positive reactions. I grew up in delaware and attended college at the university of delaware. After graduating with degrees in philosophy, history, economics, masters of economics, I went to university of north carolina for a phd in economics. After completing my phd I got a job at the bureau of labor statistics.
▶ 0:46:38Mr. Matsumoto: I work for the bureau since 2015 , on economic measurement topics. I have published on topics related to consumption measurement and production offices. Mainly the consumer price index program. This includes work on alternative projects, most notably a project to replace traditional he collected data for the medical price indexes.
▶ 0:47:09Mr. Matsumoto: In september, 2024 I was promoted to a supervisory position. In the first trump administration I detailed the council of economic advisers where I worked on labor and health topics. I was asked to do another detail by the incoming chairman. I had been in that role since. While working out the cea I had greater respect for the data user.
▶ 0:47:37Mr. Matsumoto: The analysis done, it would be impossible without the official data. Having the data is extremely important in developing good, economic policies. I believe strongly in the mission to produce objective, quality measures and analysis, working conditions, price changes, productivity in the united states economy as public and private decision-making.
▶ 0:48:07Mr. Matsumoto: It is important for the public to be confident that decisions are being driven by science rather than politics. If confirmed I will commit to maintain the integrity and independence of the els. Also, any changes to data or methods will be approved by career staff agency and communicated to the public ahead of time along with research supporting the change. If confirmed I would be leaving them at a pivotal moment.
▶ 0:48:38Mr. Matsumoto: Our statistical system is built on households. The continued decline threatens the future reliability of a survey based statistical system and may already be having impacts on sample sizes, the variability of data and revisions. My priority will be pursuing efforts while pursuing a research agenda and data sources that could be used to supplement or replace traditional survey data.
▶ 0:49:09Mr. Matsumoto: I will focus on improving transparency and communication. I have a great interest in working to improve measurement of the technologies such as artificial intelligence. It was a privilege to be here today. I look forward to your questions.
▶ 0:49:24Chair Cassidy: You mentioned alternative data sources for contracts. Bls overestimated job growth by 800 and 61,000 jobs. That can't be right, right? From april 24 through march, 2025, the road -- largest revisions, you mentioned using alternative survey sources. You have an idea what those alternative sources would be?
▶ 0:49:53Dr. Matsumoto: When looking at payroll data specifically, there are a number of potential data sources. Each of these has a number of pros and cons as well as potential costs. One possibility would be the data from payroll companies. Another possibility would be to use tax data.
▶ 0:50:24Dr. Matsumoto: Our final possibility is to use the data that are reported to the state systems. These are the data already used by the benchmarking process. There will be challenges for each of those. Those are the avenues. I can go into that in more detail if you want. Those would be the potential sources.
▶ 0:50:51Chair Cassidy: In recent years the board has seen massive policy swings. It eliminates certainty. It makes it more difficult for most of the unions and management to plot a course. Can you speak to how you approach when to change precedent and what factors you consider when doing so?
▶ 0:51:15Mr. Prouty: Thank you for that question. As we discussed in our meeting, we don't scan the horizon looking for cases to overturn. Generally the way it works is the general counsel will bring us recommendations. Sometimes we do and sometimes we don't. That is our job to judge the cases before us.
▶ 0:51:39Mr. Prouty: If the general counsel asks, the things we consider our what was the president, how well reasoned was the president. Sometimes they are not well reasoned. How the world is going to change since that precedent was first established. We have a 90-year-old act that sometimes keeps pace with the economy today and sometimes doesn't.
▶ 0:52:04Mr. Prouty: We consider if we are going to change precedent should we do it prospectively or should we do it retroactively. Often we do it prospectively for the very reasons we mentioned, to give the parties going forward the expectation of how the behavior will be judged going forward.
▶ 0:52:28Chair Cassidy: When should the board preempted specific cases with rulemaking and broad applause?
▶ 0:52:39Mr. Macy: Thank you for the question. In terms of rulemaking, the statute of authority for the board to consider. That is a tool that should be considered by the board. I think the rulemaking tool does give the opportunity for notice and review. I have had some experience in my time at worker's compensation to work on that. I respect that process.
▶ 0:53:13Mr. Macy: As they indicated a number of matters that come to the board for consideration, some of those things happen through adjudication.
▶ 0:53:22Chair Cassidy: I'm not sure you answered the question. They come through adjudication, perhaps. You have the right to exercise it, when would you exercise that right with rulemaking?
▶ 0:53:43Dr. Matsumoto: As it comes --
▶ 0:53:46Mr. Macy: We have the cases that come to us. There are areas we should look at that are broader that I could use some resolution. I think it would be helpful in the areas where we see swings back and forth between the decisions that give the stability that art helpful to the employees, unions. I think those might be right.
▶ 0:54:17Chair Cassidy: Thank you, we thank the panelists for being here this morning. You have served as I understand in several roles at the current labor department including the acting administrator of wage and hour division. They proposed a rule to strip health care workers of their right to minimum wage and overtime.
▶ 0:54:43Chair Cassidy: Do you really believe that homecare workers should be paid less then $7.25 per hour and not get paid time and a half?
▶ 0:54:53Mr. Macy: Thank you for your question. Within the rulemaking authority and matters pending in that regard, I'm not at liberty to discuss those aspects of it in the background of those type of issues.
▶ 0:55:13Sen. Sanders: Do you believe it was illegal for president trump to fire quinn wilcox as a member of the nlrb, which effectively shut down the nlrb last year?
▶ 0:55:27Mr. Macy: That is a matter of pending litigation. My role, the potential role assuming I am confirmed is not to comment on matters.
▶ 0:55:41Sen. Sanders: So you have no opinion?
▶ 0:55:43Mr. Macy: It would not be appropriate.
▶ 0:55:48Sen. Sanders: One of the most common unionbusting tactics is to interrogate workers and subject them to mandatory audience meetings. Do you have a comment on that? Do you agree those meetings should be illegal?
▶ 0:56:03Mr. Macy: Again, as I understand there are matters that are pending before the board that they touch upon that subject. It would not be appropriate for me to comment on that.
▶ 0:56:19Sen. Sanders: You come before the committee and you have no opinions. It makes it hard for us to assess the role you are going to play. It is my feeling that I'm going to vote against you. Spacex, owned by elon musk and amazon owned by jeff bezos have filed lawsuits arguing the nlrb board is unconstitutional.
▶ 0:56:49Sen. Sanders: It is the nlrb board constitutional?
▶ 0:56:52Mr. Prouty: Under the jones and laughlin decision of the something support going back to just after the act was enacted, the answer to your question is yes.
▶ 0:57:07Mr. Macy: I concur that according to the united states supreme court as it stands today , that is what has been found by the court.
▶ 0:57:20Sen. Sanders: Let me ask yes or no, do you support the pro-act that would make it easier for workers to form unions and hold them accountable for legal unionbusting?
▶ 0:57:37Dr. Matsumoto: It wouldn't be appropriate for me to comment.
▶ 0:57:45Sen. Sanders: Let me guess you will not comment either?
▶ 0:57:46Mr. Macy: I would not be able to.
▶ 0:57:50Sen. Sanders: The bureau of labor statistics has been highly politicized by president trump. Among other things he claimed your predecessor faked this before the election to try to boost the chance of victory. Do you agree with that statement?
▶ 0:58:19Dr. Matsumoto: The president statement speak for themselves and I will not comment on them.
▶ 0:58:27Sen. Sanders: He got rid of your predecessor because he thought she was corrupt, no comment on that?
▶ 0:58:34Dr. Matsumoto: It is not a fair view for me to comment on presidential personnel decisions.
▶ 0:58:43Sen. Sanders: If the president of the united states demands you change the numbers, will you obey him or follow the law?
▶ 0:58:48Dr. Matsumoto: I do not believe the president would ask me to do that, however I will follow the law. The numbers that are compiled by the career staff, if confirmed those are the numbers that will be released to the public.
▶ 0:59:08Sen. Sanders: Thank you.
▶ 0:59:10Sen. Murkowski: Thank you Mr. chairman, Mr. macy, could you commit to enforcing the national labor relations act fairly regardless of employer or union affiliation?
▶ 0:59:26Mr. Macy: Yes.
▶ 0:59:29Sen. Murkowski: Mr. prouty, same question to you, could you enforce this fairly regardless of union affiliation?
▶ 0:59:37Mr. Prouty: Yes.
▶ 0:59:41Sen. Murkowski: Alaska has a number of tribes that operate both public and private sector enterprises. Hopefully very quickly, how would you approach questions of labor law as they relate to sovereign entities or perhaps more complex jurisdictional questions? I will pose that to either one of you or both.
▶ 1:00:06Mr. Prouty: I think the answer to that will depend on the cases that come before us. I can't make a pronouncement going forward based on a hypothetical.
▶ 1:00:20Sen. Murkowski: You are recognizing that when looking at a sovereign entity it is different than what you may have?
▶ 1:00:28Mr. Prouty: We could only consider the cases that come before us and I can't really comment on issues.
▶ 1:00:38Sen. Murkowski: I just want an acknowledgment that we are dealing with different entities here. Let me ask you, again this is bring it back to my home state, they tracked the consumer prices in major urban areas.
▶ 1:00:58Sen. Murkowski: My sense is it is less effective in capturing the astronomical costs that we see in more remote parts of alaska, off-road communities whether it is the cost of goods, transportation.
▶ 1:01:20Sen. Murkowski: Further to that point, it is difficult to capture the value that comes with subsistence economies to community resilience. It doesn't fit neat boxes.
▶ 1:01:37Sen. Murkowski: This is why when we look at some of the challenges we face in alaska we are arguing for more flexibility, more support because the actual cost to the individual has not been accurately reflected. We are measured against other population centers that might be connected by road.
▶ 1:02:02Sen. Murkowski: I have communities in alaska that will be seeing fuel supplies delivered for the first time since september. It's not because of anybody's fault. The fuel barges that come twice per year. In june and then september. Think about what that does to the cost of everything else.
▶ 1:02:23Sen. Murkowski: The question I have for you is whether the bls could expand or reform its methodologies to better reflect some of the challenges that we see in more remote and highly rural areas?
▶ 1:02:41Sen. Murkowski: Again reflecting high cost for transportation and also the complicated overlay of subsistence activities into the metrics that are utilized by bls.
▶ 1:02:56Dr. Matsumoto: It is very important that the cpi is restricted to the urban population. Urban is defined in such a way that this ends up covering 90 some percent of the population. That leaves a substantial portion of the population assuming I have long had an interest in. It's something I would look forward to if confirmed.
▶ 1:03:29Sen. Murkowski: I would put the same challenge to you as I did with Mr. macy and Mr. prouty in terms of recognizing when you are dealing with tribal entity that is a sovereign entity, look at that differently. When you are dealing with populations that are extremely remote you may need to do a different calculus. This comes back to Mr. macy and Mr.
▶ 1:03:59Sen. Murkowski: Prouty here, we acknowledge there is a backlog that continues across the nlrb. We seem to see a greater in the more remote and rural areas of the country. How would you propose to address that? We need to focus on the backlog but we have a real problem when it comes to our rural areas.
▶ 1:04:23Mr. Prouty: I acknowledge the problem. The regional areas were perceived by the general counsel. There has been a shortage of staffing, she is also an initiative that I can't really comment on. That is the extent of my knowledge.
▶ 1:04:56Sen. Baldwin: Thank you. Mr. prouty and Mr. macy, I want to talk a little bit about the nlrb budget, the sole agency that could conduct and certify union elections.
▶ 1:05:16Sen. Baldwin: Unless a volunteer -- an employer voluntarily passes this information, the right of workers depends on the nlrb ability to function and their workers in wisconsin including nurses at st. Mary's hospital in madison were scheduled to vote on forming a union this week who rely on a fully functioning board.
▶ 1:05:39Sen. Baldwin: The staffing levels have drastically reduced over the last 15 years and processing times for those pertaining to unfair labor practices has lengthened quite dramatically. These cases are mostly bought forward. They may have been violated and they deserve attention. This question is for each of you.
▶ 1:06:05Sen. Baldwin: Do you think they need increased funding for staff to protect workers, enforce labor laws and fully do its job.
▶ 1:06:21Mr. Prouty: The budget will allow us to continue our functions. We would be able to be even better improve those functions. Part of the issue with the backlog is we have seen a tremendous uptick in the number of cases that have been filed mostly because of increased union organizing.
▶ 1:06:48Mr. Prouty: The regions you have said, the staffs have been cut hiring is going on now.
▶ 1:07:04Mr. Macy: Thank you, I appreciate your concern. That is certainly something I want to analyze.
▶ 1:07:23Sen. Baldwin: Will you commit today that you will request sufficient funding to hire and retain sufficient staff with the caseload. I've also added appropriate or -- I'm also an appropriate or, will you request sufficient funding and any additional authority to maintain sufficient staff?
▶ 1:07:52Mr. Prouty: I'm one of potentially five board members. Along with the general counsel I don't come and request more money. I'm indicating that we would appreciate more money for the nlrb.
▶ 1:08:13Mr. Macy: I would support that we are appropriate. They work with what congress believes is appropriate.
▶ 1:08:25Sen. Baldwin: Will you commit to requesting sufficient funds to keep regional offices open.
▶ 1:08:37Mr. Prouty: I will say that my role as one of five.
▶ 1:08:41Mr. Macy: I would definitely commit to working with congress and analyzing what is the most efficient way to provide those offices.
▶ 1:08:56Sen. Baldwin: I want to bring up the issues of nlrb independence. President has shown repeatedly that he will yield his influence that has historically been independent including firing members of the national labor relations board. It's essential that if you will exercise independent judgment in this role.
▶ 1:09:26Sen. Baldwin: An additional yes or no questions. Are you prepared to issue a ruling the president disagrees with?
▶ 1:09:32Mr. Prouty: Yes.
▶ 1:09:33Mr. Macy: Yes.
▶ 1:09:38Sen. Baldwin: During your decision-making process would you take into account how you anticipate the president may want you to rule on a particular issue?
▶ 1:09:48Mr. Prouty: No.
▶ 1:09:50Mr. Macy: I would make an independent decision based on the facts.
▶ 1:09:57Sen. Baldwin: If a case comes before you that has clear evidence that a company violated a labor law that the white house ways and to tell you to side with the employer, would you follow the law or follow the white house directive?
▶ 1:10:11Mr. Prouty: I would follow the law.
▶ 1:10:13Mr. Macy: I would follow the law.
▶ 1:10:20Sen. Baldwin: Would you report that behavior to congress?
▶ 1:10:23Mr. Prouty: Yes.
▶ 1:10:24Mr. Macy: I would follow all the appropriate reporting requirements.
▶ 1:10:31Sen. Baldwin: Thank you.
▶ 1:10:34Sen. Cruz: --
▶ 1:10:39Sen. Husted: I want to ask a question or two about the data. It is for policymakers, economists, businesses. Something that the american public and business labor leadership rely upon to make judgments about how the economy is doing, the labor market is.
▶ 1:11:07Sen. Husted: We have seen in recent years the statistical data collection process including from april 2020 three until march, 2024 the overestimated job creation by 818,000 jobs in one year. One could almost guess more accurately than that.
▶ 1:11:34Sen. Husted: I'm curious about any thoughts you have about how they could improve the data collection and provide a more accurate picture of what is going on in the labor market and the economy.
▶ 1:11:48Dr. Matsumoto: This is a very important topic. There are a number of sources of error. Some of that is late respondents. Some of that is the additional seasonal factor. Once you get to the third bug, the process holds until the benchmark provision. The benchmark provision there is a number of sources.
▶ 1:12:22Dr. Matsumoto: Some of the issue leading to revisions could be an issue of the statistical models. If you are consistently often the same direction that could be an issue with some of the statistical models. There could potentially be a logical fix. More challenging would be if this is due to the decline in the initial response rate and just the overall response rates.
▶ 1:12:51Dr. Matsumoto: A further study would need to be done into just how much of the decline or has contributed. That would ultimately be more challenging. It's that is where I think we have this on to bigger sources.
▶ 1:13:08Sen. Husted: I would continue to work on this model, the way it is working now is questionable. I ask this of nominees that have come before this committee with the context of cases. I know it reached a high in 2024, I believe we are at 17,000 backlog.
▶ 1:13:40Sen. Husted: I will ask each of you what you intend to do to address this backlog.
▶ 1:13:51Mr. Prouty: The backlog you are referring to is on the general counsel side. That question would really be more appropriately put to the general counsel because she is in charge of the regions where they are filed. We have our own backlog. Since the -- we have goneback, e since the -- we have goneback, d expeditiously to try to reduce the backlog. We have gotten it down by over 300 cases.
▶ 1:14:22Sen. Husted: Mr. macy?
▶ 1:14:24Mr. Macy: Thank you, senator. The backlog is a concern. I complement the board for the work they have done on reducing that. If confirmed, you absolutely have my commitment to put all the time necessary because the parties do deserve fair, quick results. What will assist is by adding more members to the board, we can assign cases broader.
▶ 1:14:55Mr. Macy: As I understand it, three members can participate in a decision. You divide that amongst the four, we can expect the processing and help with that, so I would welcome that.
▶ 1:15:06Sen. Husted: What you are telling us is you need us to move on to other business and get you confirmed.
▶ 1:15:11Mr. Macy: I would appreciate it. Your words, senator.
▶ 1:15:15Sen. Husted: I appreciate both of you and your willingness to serve. Just as a general comment about this or any other thing government does, when you hold people up, you are wasting their time and their money. Government needs to be more efficient and deliver services in a timeframe that people can expect and I hope you will make that a priority. Thank you, Mr. chairman.
▶ 1:15:39Chair Cassidy: Senator hassan.
▶ 1:15:41Sen. Hassan: Thank you, Mr. chairman. I appreciate you and making member sanders having this hearing. To the nominees, good morning and congratulations to you and your families for your nominations and thank you for your willingness to serve. Let me start with a question I ask all nominees. If directed by the president to take an action that would break the law, would you follow the law or the president's directive?
▶ 1:16:06Mr. Prouty: I would follow the law.
▶ 1:16:08Sen. Hassan: Thank you.
▶ 1:16:09Mr. Macy: I would follow the law.
▶ 1:16:11Sen. Hassan: Thank you.
▶ 1:16:12Dr. Matsumoto: I don't believe the president would ask anything like that but I would follow the law.
▶ 1:16:17Sen. Hassan: Thank you. To the first part of your answer, I appreciate all three of you committing to follow the law. The president is giving us now almost daily examples of his willingness to break the law and his willingness to direct other people to do the same thing so I hope you keep that in mind. To Mr. prouty and Mr. macy, congress established the nlrb as an independent federal agency to be free from political influence or executive control.
▶ 1:16:44Sen. Hassan: I know senator baldwin ask you a similar question, but I want to just make sure I hear it directly from you. If the national labor relations board held a practice was illegal under the national labor relations act and the president said he disagrees, would you instruct agency staff to continue following the board's ruling?
▶ 1:17:03Mr. Prouty: Yes.
▶ 1:17:04Mr. Macy: Yes.
▶ 1:17:06Sen. Hassan: Thank you. Dr. matsumoto, congress needs to work on a bipartisan basis to ensure the benefits of ai go to workers, not just the wealthiest americans and major corporations. Senator banks and I have a bipartisan bill called the ai workforce prepare act, which would improve the federal government's capacity to assess how ai is impacting the economy, determine how ai is displacing workers, and update the training programs so that workers are not left behind.
▶ 1:17:38Sen. Hassan: Dcoctor, if confirmed, will you work with us to make sure the labor of bureau statistics has the tools it needs to understand the impact of ai on the workforce?
▶ 1:17:48Dr. Matsumoto: Yeah. If confirmed, I look forward to working with you and others on the topic of ai.
▶ 1:17:55Sen. Hassan: Thank you very much. It really measures impact on the workforce and what we need to do to respond to that impact. I think it will be a major challenge for all of us and should be a goal we can all share. Dr. matsumoto, another question. Maintaining the independence and data integrity of the bureau is obviously really important. Data from the bureau play a critical role in assessing the health of our economy and setting sound economic policy, including the interest rates set by the federal reserve.
▶ 1:18:26Sen. Hassan: While the bureau is widely respected statistical agency, president trump has politicized the agency by firing the bureau commissioner in august after a week jobs report and making completely baseless claims that the numbers were rigged. This is a quote. He said the numbers were "rigged" to make "the president look bad." if confirmed, how would you protect the neutrality and independence of the bls?
▶ 1:18:57Dr. Matsumoto: Thank you for the question, and I do agree that fulfilling the mission of the bls to accurately measure this data does require independence from political interference, and if confirmed, I fully commit to maintaining the integrity and independence of the bls.
▶ 1:19:19Sen. Hassan: Do you have ideas about how you can go about doing that? Are there structures? Are there chains of command? Is there the presence of an ombudsman? I am thinking of what practical things you can do to protect the neutrality.
▶ 1:19:36Dr. Matsumoto: Certainly. Transparency and openness with data users I think helps keep the process free from political interference. The data users can see how the data are constructed and that there is a reason for the methodological and data decisions that are not political.
▶ 1:20:01Dr. Matsumoto: And I will note as -- I would be the sole political appointee at the bls if confirmed. It is important that decisions not be made by me alone on these matters and they come from the staff with the expertise.
▶ 1:20:16Sen. Hassan: I appreciate that. The other things to do is to make sure the career staff understands that you will stand up for them when there is political pressure. One of the things we have seen is whistleblowers have been retaliated against. We have also seen layoffs and firings of career employees who might provide information that the administration does not like. And so I think it will be critically important to reinforce to them that you have their backs.
▶ 1:20:45Sen. Hassan: I appreciate your willingness to take this on. Thank you. I yield back.
▶ 1:20:48Chair Cassidy: Senator hawley. Sen. ha thank Sen. ha thwl thank y
▶ 1:20:59That Sen. Hawley: Thank you. As you are aware, there are megacorporations in the united states currently trying to block the efforts of their american employees. From engaging in collective bargaining and there is no worse example of this than amazon. Let me show you a picture here. These are amazon workers on staten island voting to unionize back in 2022. This was a huge landmark win for labor and for the employees.
▶ 1:21:30That Sen. Hawley: It took them years to get this vote. Amazon fiercely resisted it, did everything they could to try to stop it, pulled out all the stops, and yet all the employees as is their right under the law devoted to unionize. After they did so, amazon proceeded to engage in a delay of four years before they entered into negotiations for a first contract with management. Four years. As you know, federal law requires good faith bargaining to get to that first contract. Amazon delayed and delayed and delayed.
▶ 1:22:00That Sen. Hawley: If you want to go, the teamsters president sat right where you were sitting and said this was common practice across the industry in these multinational megacorporations, amazon being one of the worst offenders. They deliberately delay and hold up the process of getting to first contract. I was stunned to learn the average time to a first contract is 465 days. Now I emphasize, this is after the employees have exercised their federal right to collectively bargain. 465 days.
▶ 1:22:32That Sen. Hawley: In half of the cases, just about, it is over two years before there is any kind of agreement at all. So let me just ask you first of all, are you familiar with this issue? Are you concerned about it?
▶ 1:22:42Mr. Prouty: Thank you for the question, senator. Yes, I am marvelously aware of it and am concerned about it. As I have said publicly, the remedies available under the act are somewhat limited. I would invite congress to strengthen the act. But we process cases as expeditiously as we can. We have a huge backlog.
▶ 1:23:04Sen. Hawley: Mr. macy -- I want to go back to your point. Mr. macy, are you aware and concerned?
▶ 1:23:13Mr. Macy: I am aware of it and concerned.
▶ 1:23:15Sen. Hawley: Good. I am glad to hear that. I agree that there are steps for congress to take, which is why I am pleased yesterday house represented passed legislation imo and introduced on this side of the capitol along with my friends senator booker and senator marshall and a number of my colleagues on the other side of the dais. I call it the faster labor contracts act.
▶ 1:23:37Sen. Hawley: It tries to actualize the requirements already and federal law, namely that employers once their employees have voted as is their right to unionize and collectively bargain would put a shot clock on that bargaining process so we can get to a first contract. As I said, that legislation passed the house. It would be enforced if it were to be passed by the senate and signed by the president and enforced by the nlrb.
▶ 1:24:00Sen. Hawley: Using providing more of a framework, creating a framework for a first contract, putting a timeline, putting a shot clock on those negotiations also provides for arbitration in which parties can choose their arbiters and so forth but if they cannot reach a contract within a certain man of time that we get arbitrators to help them, does that sound like the kind of thing that would help give voice, make actual and real this right that employees already have under federal law? Go ahead, Mr. prouty.
▶ 1:24:27Mr. Prouty: Senator, I have to put on my hat of board member. It is not really appropriate for me to comment on legislation either way on what would improve the act. My job is to enforce the act as it stands.
▶ 1:24:42Sen. Hawley: But you would enforce it if it were passed?
▶ 1:24:45Mr. Prouty: I would.
▶ 1:24:47Mr. Macy: Thank you, senator. I am in a state that it would not be appropriate for me to comment on legislation. But an answer of the next question I anticipate, we would follow the law.
▶ 1:24:59Sen. Hawley: Good. Good. I hope you will soon have the opportunity to enforce it. I will do my best on my side of things here but I think it is important we make real the guarantees that are already in federal law. Let me ask you one other question here in my time remaining. It is also related to amazon. Let me show you another amazon related picture. This will be familiar to everyone in the room. We have an amazon truck. We have an employee who is wearing an amazon branded t-shirt, other logos, hat.
▶ 1:25:31Sen. Hawley: , carrying the package. You might think this person is an amazon employee, but low and behold, she is not, according to the company. The company runs a third-party organization, a delivery service provider that they also control and subcontract with for the purpose of avoiding having to pay this good person for wages, health care benefits, getting her the benefits of other rights that have been won in collective bargaining.
▶ 1:26:00Sen. Hawley: My question to you, I will let you take a first stab at it and follow up with questions for the record, do you think it is time for us to put an end to this blatant attempt to avoid federal labor law? Amazon for years has operated this program with the sole intent of avoiding having to pay these people, who they say are not really their employees though they micromanage their schedule to the second everyday.
▶ 1:26:22Sen. Hawley: Don't you think it is time we put a stop to their attempts, amazon and others, to evade federal law and collective bargaining by treating these employees as if they are not there employees?
▶ 1:26:32Mr. Prouty: Senator, as you may know, that very issue is on my desk right now so I cannot really comment.
▶ 1:26:39Sen. Hawley: Just tell us why it is on your desk. Because the nlrb has taken action on this.
▶ 1:26:47Mr. Prouty: There is a proposed settlement on an outstanding case.
▶ 1:26:50Sen. Hawley: I know my time has expired so I will leave it at that and have follow-up questions for you. I this is outrageous. This employee who every moment of her life is directed by amazon but they don't have to pay her or honor the commitments under collective getting that might apply to her is ridiculous. If the nlrb does not have authority to do something about it now, we should.
▶ 1:27:16Chair Cassidy: Senator kim.
▶ 1:27:18Sen. Kim: Thank you, chairman. Thank you to the three of you for coming out here. Mr. macy and Mr. prouty, you already talked about the independence issues and other things. I wanted to drill down a little more. Last year, president trump issued an executive order that directed the nlrb to take some specific actions when it came to the issue of college sports.
▶ 1:27:43Sen. Kim: I wanted to ask the two of you, was that executive order, was that directed by the president to the nlrb appropriate? Mr. macy, I will start with you.
▶ 1:27:53Mr. Macy: Again, it is something that may be pending before the nlrb. I am not in position to comment on it. I think that is something we will have to review, assuming I get confirmed.
▶ 1:28:04Sen. Kim: So you are not able to say whether or not you thought -- I guess you were going back-and-forth with my colleagues about these hypotheticals about whether or not you would take action that is based off of what you think is the right thing to do or things being directed. Mr. prouty, I would be interested in hearing your response.
▶ 1:28:25Mr. Prouty: Senator, my understanding of the act is we respond when a case is brought before us in a union election or labor practice case. I am not aware of any process by which we implement an executive order.
▶ 1:28:38Sen. Kim: So when the president says he directed nlrb, what was the response from nlrb over the last year?
▶ 1:28:49Mr. Prouty: We have not encountered the issue of college athletes in the last year.
▶ 1:28:53Sen. Kim: Mr. macy, maybe I will return to you because I am trying to get a sense of this, just to have you on the record. Is the nlrb an independent agency?
▶ 1:29:04Mr. Macy: As determined by the congress when the act was passed, it was an independent agency until determined differently, I believe it is.
▶ 1:29:12Sen. Kim: I want to point out even on the website of the nlrb it says the nlrb is an independent federal agency created in 1935, so it is not just from the congressional standpoint. I think that is important for us to be thinking through here. I would just say I wish you had a stronger answer, Mr. macy. I was listening to you and thought you did well when it came to some of these hypotheticals but it was a clear-cut case where the president directs the nlrb.
▶ 1:29:42Sen. Kim: That is not right and I wish he would be able to say that is not something that the nlrb is required to be able to follow up on. Mr. prouty, I wanted to just ask, you talked about the importance of having full board membership. Can you tell us more what you are not able to do, what the nlrb is able to do right now without the full board being in place?
▶ 1:30:04Mr. Prouty: Thank you for the question, senator. Under the statute, there are supposed to be five members at the nlrb. As the statute has been implemented, we assign cases to panels of three. So if we had four or five board members, we could essentially tackle more cases. Each board member retains the right to get onto and express their opinion on any case, but a lot of our cases are routine. A lot of our cases are unanimous, so more board members would mean more efficiency.
▶ 1:30:35Sen. Kim: Thank you. Dr. matsumoto, I would like to turn to you. You said in your statement here, if confirmed, I will commit to maintaining the integrity and independence of the bls. That is great. I agree with that wholeheartedly. I wanted to ask if you agree there should be independent oversight over the bureau of labor statistics data?
▶ 1:30:58Dr. Matsumoto: What do you mean by independent oversight?
▶ 1:31:01Sen. Kim: I guess I just want to -- what I am trained to say is, do you agree there should be no politicization of the data and the ability for those in elected office to be able to determine what information is made available or what information is taken to account in your assessments?
▶ 1:31:20Dr. Matsumoto: Yeah. Yeah, I agree that the bls should have independence.
▶ 1:31:29Sen. Kim: And when it comes to your own performance here, if confirmed, I wanted to ask if you would commit to divesting from individual stocks if confirmed to this job.
▶ 1:31:40Dr. Matsumoto: My ethics agreement requires me to divest from one company. I have small positions in a couple other companies, but the ethics agreement did not require me to the best of my knowledge.
▶ 1:31:55Sen. Kim: I will just say members of congress are not at this point required to divest. I have. I think it is important for us to show the american people we are making these decisions based off of what is best for them, not what is best for us.
▶ 1:32:11Sen. Kim: When your position is one that actually has a lot of data coming to you from across many different industries and sectors, many different companies, and you often have that information made public, in fact, the usa jobs report often has an impact on the stock market, often has an impact on what comes next so I would employ you to take a position here where you are not invested in individual stocks and you can say for certainty that that is not something that drives or
▶ 1:32:42Sen. Kim: Motivates you. I am not just pointing it out for you. I just think for anyone in the position you are seeking that would be the appropriate prioritization. With that, I yield back.
▶ 1:32:50Chair Cassidy: Senator armstrong.
▶ 1:32:53Sen. Armstrong: Good morning. This question is to Mr. macy, please. You mentioned in your testimony about the backlog that exists in your response to senator kim. I am curious if there are ways you can see we can really improve the efficiency with the backlog?
▶ 1:33:20Mr. Macy: Thank you, senator. As you know, I have not had the opportunity to be at the board but I look forward to that. If confirmed, I look forward to working on that with the other board members in that regard. I don't know enough about that yet to comment other than the cases are distributed amongst the board to make it an efficient -- to make it efficient and effective.
▶ 1:33:49Mr. Macy: Having clear and collective bargaining. I also hear the concerns of the panel and welcome the opportunity down the road in that regard.
▶ 1:34:00Sen. Armstrong: Thank you. Secondly, I come from a business background, and I wonder about how you get feedback about some of the practical, pragmatic on the ground issues. How you kind of have a window into what is really happening on the front lines of issues.
▶ 1:34:25Mr. Macy: I appreciate that as well because with my background, there was not a day that went by that I was not on the phone or in a meeting with a small business or medium business or employee or union rep as far as that goes to talk about the practical impact of all of this on a daily basis. That is something I welcome the opportunity to bring to the board with that background of everyday real life experience.
▶ 1:34:54Sen. Armstrong: So do you envision setting up some kind of process or feedback loop that is a place where you can really take in? I am sure that is a very large set of squeaky wheels out there, but curious how you actually convert that into things you can take action on.
▶ 1:35:16Mr. Macy: Thank you. I welcome that opportunity. As senator johnson indicated when we begin the hearing today, I have been involved in many organizations and community activities and welcome the input. I think it would be good solutions that way. I agreed and I hear in my capacity working in D.C.
▶ 1:35:34Mr. Macy: With the agencies some voice, but I agree with you that I don't think we get enough voice, so I am looking forward to being out and about and being the voice of the small employers, business reps, union reps, those that are out day-to-day.
▶ 1:35:53Sen. Armstrong: Great. Thank you. Appreciate that. To Mr. matsumoto, boy, what a challenge you have in terms of as you mentioned in your testimony the issue of having less and less, lower and lower response rates. Curious.
▶ 1:36:18Sen. Armstrong: And yet people look at that data as if it is the same despite the reduction that we have. So what are you -- and I noticed your comment on this, but I wonder what specifically you intend to do to try to mitigate that or collect the data? I am curious to hear your thoughts.
▶ 1:36:39Dr. Matsumoto: Thank you for the question. I agree it is very important. Probably the first step is to determine just how much of an impact and is having and making it clear to data users. So to make sure that all of the survey programs have up-to-date nonresponse policies published on the webpage.
▶ 1:37:02Dr. Matsumoto: That will help us determine what effect it is having and then we can start thinking about what some of the potential solutions could be. Now, there could be some ways to maybe incentivize response. That can be examined. There is a lot of challenges with that, but I do think ultimately there is an end date to the survey-based system. I don't know when that will be.
▶ 1:37:32Dr. Matsumoto: But it is something I believe we should be preparing to address. I believe all the programs should be looking at ways to incorporate or at least research ways to incorporate.
▶ 1:37:46Sen. Armstrong: Do you think there is some threshold that you will reach? Your point is it is going to keep declining and likely have to shift gears on that. Do you think there is some point where you have to announce to the business that depend on that that it may not be reliable and something we can rely on for the future?
▶ 1:38:08Dr. Matsumoto: Yeah. That is why I believe the nonresponse studies are special. A defining response rate does not necessarily mean there is an issue with the data, but it could reach a level where we just do not have enough respondents to get a representative sample.
▶ 1:38:24Sen. Armstrong: Thank you, Mr. chair.
▶ 1:38:26Chair Cassidy: Senator blunt rochester.
▶ 1:38:29Sen. Blunt Rochester: Thank you, Mr. chairman. Thank you to the nominees for being present. I am pleased that we are considering a bipartisan pair of nominees because the partisan dismissal of democratic board members and commissioners across agencies throughout the duration of the administration has hampered good policy, also oversight, as well as just being
▶ 1:39:02Sen. Blunt Rochester: Undetectable. I want to start with my questions for Dr. matsumoto. First of all to say it is good to see another blue hen here at the capitol. As you know, the bureau of labor statistics was first established in 1884, 142 years ago. And since then, and has provided critically important information about our labor market and economy. I served as delaware' secretary of labors.
▶ 1:39:32Sen. Blunt Rochester: So to me, the data is so important. As bls commissioner, you would be charged with maintaining trust in the data bls provides to the american people like inflation measures and job reports. You have been at bls for about a decade. Is that correct?
▶ 1:39:50Dr. Matsumoto: That is correct.
▶ 1:39:52Sen. Blunt Rochester: In the decade that you have been with the agency was there a time when you think our country should not have trusted or should have doubted the work of the agency?
▶ 1:40:03Dr. Matsumoto: Yeah. So I just want to say that in my time working at bls, I have had plenty of great experiences with my coworkers. It is really the dedication and professionalism of the staff at bls that is something that is impressive. Ultimately, this is not a job I would want if I do not have full faith in the staff at the agency.
▶ 1:40:28Sen. Blunt Rochester: Thank you. I know you are effectually known as a date entered.
▶ 1:40:35Sen. Blunt Rochester: During your time, did you ever believe that the jobs report numbers or any numbers were being faked?
▶ 1:40:47Dr. Matsumoto: I believe there are technical reasons that can explain perhaps these large revisions, but no.
▶ 1:40:55Sen. Blunt Rochester: Thank you. I am glad that in your testimony and comments here that you committed to maintaining the independence of the bls. Unfortunately, we have seen it right here in this committee that nominees and appointees have found it very hard to either abide by the promises. Either they get into the job and have to walk it back or they get fired. So I hope if you are confirmed your experience is not the same.
▶ 1:41:26Sen. Blunt Rochester: I would love to ask as commissioner in this digital age with new technologies and complex labor market challenges, including the impact of ai, how would you approach bls modernization? Are there things you would do differently from past commissioners? Tell me a little bit about that vision.
▶ 1:41:47Dr. Matsumoto: Yes. So I think given the resource constraints based by the agency, I am very interested in the potential use of these new tools to help with the work at the agency. Of course, there are a lot of challenges to using these tools in a statistical agency where you are dealing with the nonpublic personally identifiable data.
▶ 1:42:13Dr. Matsumoto: So certainly, I view my role as commissioner would be just to help whatever the barriers are to adoption of these tools, to address them so that the staff has access to them.
▶ 1:42:26Sen. Blunt Rochester: You mentioned resources. You preempted my next question, which is, do you believe the bls budget is sufficient to deliver current products and invest in modernization?
▶ 1:42:38Dr. Matsumoto: So, ultimately, that is a question for congress. Congress will set the budget, and I will work with whatever is allocated. Although I do hope to have some input into the process.
▶ 1:42:53Sen. Blunt Rochester: Yeah, because as former secretary of labor put forward proposals. I know what my dream list was. I knew how I wanted to meet the mission. So that is why I ask the question, do you think you have the resources?
▶ 1:43:07Dr. Matsumoto: So it is certainly something that I will evaluate if confirmed. The current status of the agency.
▶ 1:43:18Sen. Blunt Rochester: I am at 15 seconds. I will submit a question to the record for a real focus on ai and your approach to ai and how you would lead in this area. Also, again, I am concerned that even if you are confirmed, we have actually seen people walk back things or be fired.
▶ 1:43:48Sen. Blunt Rochester: I yield back, Mr. chairman.
▶ 1:43:51Chair Cassidy: Secretary asking questions, I should have handed you the gavel. Senator alsobrooks.
▶ 1:43:58Sen. Alsobrooks: Thank you so much, Mr. chair, and thank you to all of our nominees being here today.
▶ 1:44:05Chair Cassidy: I'm sorry. Markey's next.
▶ 1:44:14Sen. Alsobrooks: My constituents drove to picnics and parades after filling up their cars at four dollars 51 cents a gallon. The average electricity bill in maryland has hovered around $180 a month and the cost of groceries continues to rise. As many as 5 million americans have lost their marketplace insurance because of this administration.
▶ 1:44:39Sen. Alsobrooks: This has made health care less affordable, and many marylanders are working two or three jobs just to make ends meet. They are seeing it still does not all add up. This is all while this president is claiming the economy is booming. President trump promised to lower costs if he was elected, and he is not talking about lowering gas prices, grocery prices, or the cost of housing. In fact, when questioned about what he thought of americans's financial situation, he responded he is not thinking about their financial situation.
▶ 1:45:10Sen. Alsobrooks: So my first question is for Mr. matsumoto. I wondered, Mr. matsumoto, would you agree with the president that this economy is booming?
▶ 1:45:20Dr. Matsumoto: So, as commissioner of labor statistics, I don't think it is appropriate that I be viewed as either a cheerleader or a critic of the economy, no matter what is happening. I think it is important that there is faith that the data being presented --
▶ 1:45:39Sen. Alsobrooks: I am not asking you to be a cheerleader. But let me ask you this, do you know for a simple how much the cost of ground beef has increased over the last year?
▶ 1:45:48Dr. Matsumoto: I do because it is a category in the consumer prices.
▶ 1:45:53Sen. Alsobrooks: 21%. Do you know how much the cost of orange juice has increased over the past year?
▶ 1:45:58Dr. Matsumoto: I do not.
▶ 1:46:00Sen. Alsobrooks: About 23%. So you, sir, are currently a white house senior economist at the white house and at the council of economic advisers. So I am sure you are also just paying attention to grocery prices and the rising cost. Do you acknowledge that the grocery prices have increased for americans?
▶ 1:46:21Dr. Matsumoto: I believe that the cpi data are accurate.
▶ 1:46:25Sen. Alsobrooks: Meaning, yes, they have increased. Correct?
▶ 1:46:29Dr. Matsumoto: I believe grocery prices in the cpi have increased, yes.
▶ 1:46:34Sen. Alsobrooks: And you acknowledge gas prices have increased for americans since the start of this administration as well?
▶ 1:46:43Sen. Alsobrooks: That is easy, right?
▶ 1:46:45Dr. Matsumoto: Like I said, my focus is on making sure the data presented are right.
▶ 1:46:50Sen. Alsobrooks: You are saying this is accurate data. Gas prices have increased. Health care prices have increased as well, right? You are a senior economist. I am asking you. You know the answers to these, right?
▶ 1:47:03Dr. Matsumoto: Yes. My role at the cea is to provide feedback and analysis.
▶ 1:47:10Sen. Alsobrooks: I am just asking a specific question. Do you acknowledge health care prices have increased for americans since the start of the ministration?
▶ 1:47:17Dr. Matsumoto: I believe the cpi is accurate in that matter.
▶ 1:47:20Sen. Alsobrooks: Ok, so you agree with the president that despite rising costs for americans the economy is booming?
▶ 1:47:27Dr. Matsumoto: Again, that is not a type of statement that the bls commissioner would make.
▶ 1:47:34Sen. Alsobrooks: I am saying, does the data support that?
▶ 1:47:37Dr. Matsumoto: The bls presents data objectively.
▶ 1:47:41Sen. Alsobrooks: Ok. Sir, it is not intellectually honest to say rising prices, americans cannot afford the cost, and the state of the economy is booming for them. Is that fair to say?
▶ 1:47:53Dr. Matsumoto: I did not quite follow.
▶ 1:47:55Sen. Alsobrooks: Ok. Let me go to another question. In february, kevin hassett called for federal reserve staff to be disciplined over an independent report that concluded tariffs are harming american businesses and consumers. I led many of my colleagues in a letter to director hassett demanding that he retract his suggestion that civil servants should be punished for producing data demonstrating the true cost of the trump tariffs.
▶ 1:48:27Sen. Alsobrooks: Do you agree that director has had's comments were inappropriate -- director hassett's comments were inappropriate?
▶ 1:48:35Dr. Matsumoto: I believe he addressed that.
▶ 1:48:37Sen. Alsobrooks: You believe it is appropriate to discipline civil servants for providing data and information consistent with their jobs?
▶ 1:48:43Dr. Matsumoto: I do not.
▶ 1:48:45Sen. Alsobrooks: Ok. Will you then pledged to resist any political pressure from this white house on the bureau of labor statistics monthly inflation reporting, especially as it relates to tariff driven price increases on goods and services?
▶ 1:49:02Dr. Matsumoto: Again, I fully commit to maintaining the integrity and independence of the bls and that the data produced are that produced the staff at the bls.
▶ 1:49:12Sen. Alsobrooks: Thank you so much.
▶ 1:49:14Chair Cassidy: Senator markey.
▶ 1:49:16Sen. Markey: Thank you, Mr. chairman. For too long, the rules of our economy have tilted to corporate power and away from working people. Productivity is up, profits have soared. But millions of americans are struggling to afford housing, health care, gas, and even groceries. In a word, they are being denied their dignity.
▶ 1:49:41Sen. Markey: We have to shift the balance of power back to the side of everyday working people. Americans need a strong and independent bureau of labor statistics. Americans need a strong national labor relations board. Yet our fraudster in chief donald trump cares more about lining the pockets of his billionaire ceo buddies and trying to cook the books than having independent agencies protect the legal rights of workers.
▶ 1:50:10Sen. Markey: So let us not forget why we have vacancies before us today. Because trump thinks the government works for him and not for the people of our country. The numbers published by bls, bureau of labor statistics, do not belong to the president. They don't belong to wall street or the corporate executives. They belong to the american people.
▶ 1:50:35Sen. Markey: Bureau of labor statistics data tells us whether wages are rising, whether families have to spend more to put food on the table, whether employment is up or down. Facts cannot bend to political pressure. So, doctor, I hope you will hold firm against the full on assault of scientific and statistical objectivity.
▶ 1:50:58Sen. Markey: The american people deserve nothing less, and for you to be a barrier against the rising tide of political interference from 1600 pennsylvania avenue, but information alone is not enough. Workers need power. That is where the national labor relations board comes in.
▶ 1:51:15Sen. Markey: The nlrb exists to protect the rights of workers to unionize on their own without interference from their employer, but let's be clear, this is not an even playing field. People need to have federal agencies that will have their back and enforce the law. You only need three things in politics, and public service. Backbone, backbone, and backbone.
▶ 1:51:46Sen. Markey: And the backbones of everyone over at this agency is going to be challenged by donald trump every single day. So you have to show that. You have to show that courage. Mr. prouty, I am grateful for your continued service on the board. Can you explain to us why congress set up the nlrb as an independent agency under the national labor relations act?
▶ 1:52:12Mr. Prouty: Thank you for the question, senator. The act was enacted in the midst of the depression in order to facilitate labor-management relations and to protect the rights of workers to organize and to enforce that right by the protection of federal law.
▶ 1:52:31Sen. Markey: And are you concerned about its ability to continue to play that role, looking at what is unfolding across the economic landscape from the perspective of white house pressure being imposed to deny the reality of the state of our economy?
▶ 1:52:49Mr. Prouty: Senator, as a member of the board, all I can do is adjudicate the case is before me and interpret the facts to the law. The cases are broad in the area of labor relations it was designed to protect the rights of workers.
▶ 1:53:08Sen. Markey: Again, my concern is that gas prices are up. We saw it today, the dramatic rise in costs of living, of inflation. It is absolutely real. It is going through people's lives. They can see it at the kitchen table every single day. Gas prices are up. Food prices are up. Health care costs are up. Housing costs are up. Everything is up, up, up, up.
▶ 1:53:40Sen. Markey: And that cost will cascade across the country. And the nlrb is there in order to ensure workers have the rights that workers can argue for higher wages to deal with higher inflation, with higher cost of living, with higher affordability costs. That is the job, ensuring that workers get the protections they need to deal with this economic catastrophe which has been unleashed by the trump administration.
▶ 1:54:10Sen. Markey: That is going to be the job of the nlrb, to make sure those rights are protected. So thank you, Mr. prouty. Thank you, Mr. chair.
▶ 1:54:26Chair Cassidy: From the coalition for the mechanic workplace, the national retail federation, and the national association of manufacturers. Without objection. For any senator wishing to ask additional questions, questions for the record will be due 5:00 p.m. Tomorrow, june 11. Thank you again for being here. The committee stands adjourned. [captioning performed by the national captioning institute, which is responsible for its caption content and accuracy. Visit ncicap.org]