▶ 0:17:48Chair Lee: The committee on energy and national resources will come to order. Good morning. Before I say my opening statement I will let senators know how we will proceed this morning. I plan to start with opening statements first from me and then from our ranking member, senator heinrich.
▶ 0:18:09Chair Lee: Then we will hold a business meeting to vote on a total of 17 bills that are pending before the committee which were noticed on the official agenda that the committee released last week as well as some accompanying amendments to go along with those. Finally, we will move on to an oversight hearing addressing matters related to the colorado river basin.
▶ 0:18:37Chair Lee: I also want to accommodate the schedules of our committee members and we have a lot of committee members with competing committee assignments this morning, people who will be either participating in or in several cases chairing other committee hearings this morning that couldn't be moved.
▶ 0:18:57Chair Lee: So as soon as we have a reporting quorum present, I will move to a roll call vote on the bills for which a roll call vote has been requested so that we will adjust today's framework as necessary in order to make that happen. All right.
▶ 0:19:19Chair Lee: While we wait for a quorum, I want to say a few words about a bill that I have on today's agenda that directs the bureau of reclamation to conduct a feasibility study on a selective water withdrawal system at glen canyon dam. Glen canyon dam helps provide affordable, reliable clean hydropower to communities across the west and its operations very much affect the broader colorado river system.
▶ 0:19:46Chair Lee: Over the years, questions have been raised about whether a selected withdrawal system could improve hydropower performance while also helping to address concerns related to invasive species. This bill does not alter the existing colorado river operating guidelines. It authorizes a feasibility study so that policy makers and stakeholders can make informed decisions based on sound science and engineering.
▶ 0:20:13Chair Lee: I appreciate the bipartisan interest in this issue and the bipartisan support that it's received. I urge my colleagues to support the bill. I want to note that we are doing things just a little bit differently this week since becoming chairman, I have made every effort to work in good faith with the democrats on the committee and with the ranking member and uphold and even exceed this committee's long-standing bipartisan tradition.
▶ 0:20:40Chair Lee: To that end, we have marked up democrat and republican bills on a roughly one to one basis, meaning one republican bill, one democrat bill. As the chart behind me shows, that's something that no recent chairman on this committee has done. Today's markup is a little bit different. We are marking up 11 republican bills and six democrat bills.
▶ 0:21:05Chair Lee: Since I have become chairman one of the goals that I have had is to return the committee to regular order. We hear bills, we mark them up, and we pass noncontroversial bills on the floor. You have all heard me talk about this perhaps ad nauseam. We are marking up bills, we are making progress on some of these fronts. We have held six legislative markups and we have processed 45 bills out of the committee.
▶ 0:21:32Chair Lee: That's much better than the single markup that the previous chairman held in november of 2024, where we reported over 80 bills. We can do better, but this is a marked improvement on how the committee functions. Unfortunately, many of these bills that we have reported are needlessly languishing when we get to the senate floor. Dozens and dozens have cleared the republican hotline. Republicans are ready to go.
▶ 0:22:00Chair Lee: We want to send these bills, both democrat and republican to the house or pass the house-passed version of the same bills and get them signed into law. The minority has come up with a number of excuses as to why passing one republican bill and one democratic bill is generally unacceptable.
▶ 0:22:21Chair Lee: Sure, a few bills have squeaked through like senator cortez masto's sloan canyon conservation and lateral pipeline act or senator murkowski's entitlement act. But these are the exception, not the rule. I have worked with my democrat colleagues to try to assuage concerns. We have been on the precipice of a significant breakthrough.
▶ 0:22:49Chair Lee: But very often what happens is we make progress and when we make progress, it ends up being fleeting and we end up back where we started. Especially until this changes, I can't justify the historically abnormally generous treatment that I have been providing to the minority in these committee markups.
▶ 0:23:11Chair Lee: Again, no chairman in modern history as far back as we have been able to research in recent decades has given this much of a balance, essentially a one for one aish yoa. I believe with the exception of one bill that was pulled at the request of democrats in order to resolve disputes among democrats on the committee, it has been a one to one path.
▶ 0:23:35Chair Lee: Were I to continue down this path, giving something for nothing, I am pretty sure my republican colleagues might jump me in the parking lot. So, look, this is important for us to get this worked out. To my democrat colleagues, on the committee, I am committed to working with you to move bills on the floor. Time is running out in this congress and I think we ought to try it make meaningful progress. Thank you. Ranking member heinrich.
▶ 0:24:03Sen. Heinrich: Thank you, chairman. While I am always glad to see good legislation moved through this committee, I am disappointed that we have yet another business meeting where we are considering zero conservation bills that are priorities for my members. My colleagues on the democratic side of the die ddias have a long and growing list of priorities that continue to be left off of the list of bills to be voted on by the committee.
▶ 0:24:30Sen. Heinrich: Many of which have received bipartisan support in this committee in the past. Frips -- for instance, the oregon recreation enhancement act has been reported three times always with bipartisan support. But has been left off the list of final bills that will receive votes yet again. My own gila river bill has been reported twice with bipartisan support but will not receive a vote today.
▶ 0:24:57Sen. Heinrich: The ruby mountains protection act from senator cortez masto has been reported by this committee in three previous congresses with bipartisan support and will not receive a vote today. S. 1413, the san joaquin river restoration act funding authorization sponsored by senator padilla moved last congress as part of a bipartisan pair with s. 4040 the da co-tea water resources amendment sponsored by senator hoeven.
▶ 0:25:28Sen. Heinrich: Senators padilla and hoeven co-sponsored each other's bills in the pair to demonstrate the bipartisan tie between the two. But today we will only have a vote on senator hoeven's bill and senator padilla's bill will be once again left behind. I am also disappointed that some newer bills put forth by democratic senators will not receive consideration today. S.
▶ 0:25:53Sen. Heinrich: 791 sponsored by senator van hollen would establish the justice thurgood marshall school as an affiliated area of the national park system. The future supreme court justice received the -- the former supreme court justice received his elementary education at this segregated school and grew up to argue the landmark brown vs. Board of education case before the supreme court that required american schools to desegregate.
▶ 0:26:22Sen. Heinrich: Senator van hollen's bill would not make this site a new national park service unit. It would simply allow the site to be named as an affiliated area of the national park system and to be eligible for technical assistance from the park service. The nonprofit organization that manages the site today would continue to own, operate, and manage it. This isn't a question of even adding a new national park service unit to the system.
▶ 0:26:51Sen. Heinrich: It's simply a bill to allow for consideration and support for a site that commemorates one of the most significant civil rights leaders of the last century. In fact, we have another affiliated area bill that will be voted on today. It's a bill to establish the grand village of the natchez indians and jefferson college as affiliated areas of the national park system. I have no objection to senator hyde's legislation and I plan to vote for it.
▶ 0:27:18Sen. Heinrich: But I am extremely disappointed that we will not have an opportunity to vote on similar legislative -- legislation from senator van hollen. We have very few weeks of legislative business left in this congress, and I know that senators on my side of the aisle are desperately want tog see their -- wanting to see their priority bills moved forward. This is not about controversial or noncontroversial. It's about being responsive to what members' priorities actually are.
▶ 0:27:47Sen. Heinrich: I hope that we will take the opportunity to seek collaboration and compromise so that we can move some of these bills forward.
▶ 0:28:11Chair Lee: We are missing just a couple of members who I believe are en route. We do have voice votes an couple of amendments that we can do right now in the absence of that quorum. These are some technical, nonsubstantive amendments that have been distributed for eight agenda items. Which will vote on these amendments and bills en14bloc.
▶ 0:28:39Chair Lee: F-a., 24-a, 26-b, 27-b, 27-a as a block. All those in favor of these amendments say aye. >> aye.
▶ 0:28:48Chair Lee: Those opposed nay. The ayes afear have it. The ayes do have it. The amendments are agreed to. We are waiting for one more.
▶ 0:29:21Chair Lee: Senator cotton is on his way so he should be here momentarily. While we wait, does anybody want to speak briefly on one of their bills? So we can have some entertainment while we are waiting. We will have dave mccormick do a song and dance combination. All right. Senator murkowski has arrived so we are in good shape. You don't have to dance if you are here.
▶ 0:29:52Chair Lee: >> Mr. chairman. I just have a question.
▶ 0:29:54Chair Lee: Yes. >> is dave mccormick good at singing and/or dancing?
▶ 0:29:58Chair Lee: It's part of his wrestling training in college that led him to -- the glee club. >> thank you.
▶ 0:30:07Chair Lee: We will now proceed now that we have a voting quorum present. We will begin with agenda item one, s. 140. Does any senator have a second degree amendment they wish to offer? If not, hearing none -- >> Mr. chairman. I have a second degree amendment.
▶ 0:30:28Chair Lee: Sorry. Didn't mean to cut you off. >> this amendment, colleagues, is with senator cantwell, senator padilla, senator gallego, senator hirono to strike the provision that would nullify the roadless area conservation rule. For decades, the roadless rule has protected some of america's most iconic outdoor recreation areas.
▶ 0:30:54Chair Lee: In oregon we are talking about extraordinarily amazing landscapes around mount bachelor, hiking through wildfire meadows and iron mountain or camping in the forest on mount hood. All of these beloved places would be decimated if the roadless rule was repealed. In a number of instances, more roads mean more wildfires.
▶ 0:31:24Chair Lee: Repealing the roadless rule is an open invitation to destroy these recreation areas and to spark catastrophic wildfires. I am going to be brief this morning because I want to let my colleagues led by senator cantwell make any remarks that they have. I just want to introduce one fact involving a 2026 study, three decades of the national forest system wildfire.
▶ 0:31:51Chair Lee: The state has found wildfire igician density within 50 meters of roads is roughly four times higher than a nonwilderness nonroadless forest. Wilderness and inventory roadless areas have the lowest ignition densities of any land category study. The point really is, Mr. chairman, I will close with this.
▶ 0:32:15Chair Lee: There certainly are instances where you need active management and you ought to think it through carefully. So often we have tried around here, I think it's a big part of the future but when people hear that the roadless rule is being wiped out, they say nobody is going in there with a scap pell -- scalpel.
▶ 0:32:45Chair Lee: They're going in there more with a cannon or something. I urge members to support my amendment. Instead of in effect just saying we can go in there with this across-the-board approach without really thinking through what it means to protect these special places and do it in a thoughtful way in a manner that this committee historically has done. Mr. chairman, I yield back.
▶ 0:33:14Chair Lee: Thank you. Senator wyden, before we turn to senator barrasso to respond to, any other amendments? Senator padilla? >> I would like to be heard after senator cantwell.
▶ 0:33:27Chair Lee: Speaking on the point? >> yes.
▶ 0:33:30Chair Lee: Ok. Yes, ok. So senator cantwell and then senator padilla.
▶ 0:33:36Sen. Cantwell: Thank you, Mr. chairman. I am perplexed by this morning's markup and hearing. I would have loved to have seen the wild olympics on this. I think we may be creating an artificial divide here this morning. It's clear, Mr. chairman, that you would like to sell public land. On our side of the aisle, we would like to continue to acquire public land instead of decide for the general public to use.
▶ 0:34:03Sen. Cantwell: This sunday I will attend the memorial service for jim whitaker, the first american to summit mound everest and the founder of r.e.I. It will be a great celebration of his life. But r.e.I. And what the outdoor industry means is that when you add public land, the public gets to recreate and we create an economy and it grows jobs.
▶ 0:34:27Sen. Cantwell: So what we have in this debate now on adding to the barrasso bill, a bill that we passed out of committee prior to help us fight wildfires, and I appreciate senator barrasso attending the hearing with me in seattle and helping pioneer some policy that we actually got implemented and help us change the fire borrowing problem that this committee was plagued with for many years, but we have much more to do on fire prevention and we should come together.
▶ 0:34:55Sen. Cantwell: But this amendment is now offering an eradication of the roadless rule which is simply a rule that says aren't there some elevations of public lands that are so high and so expensive to take care of that we should not basically try to use the public dollars to do so? I thank my colleague from id -- idaho for implmenting a roadless rule and it shows that these policies can work and can be cost effective for the public.
▶ 0:35:26Sen. Cantwell: Why is this so important? We are more challenged on our public lands and we have to be smart we are the taxpayer dollars. But to now today say we will get rid of the roadless rule which is like saying ok, we are going to go build a road anywhere even where it's not cost-effective, even where it costs the public more and instead of focusing on the backlog and getting out this administration the money that was promised in a bipartisan bill to continue to implement the land policies that we agreed
▶ 0:35:57Sen. Cantwell: To under legislation that our former colleague from colorado and many of us worked on is like there is a divide here and it's a bad divide. Let's be efficient with the taxpayers dollars. Let's not kill the roadless area rule. Let's make sure that we are working together on fire prevention and make smart use of public policy because it's a damn big economy and doing anything else is just wrong-headed. Thank you, Mr. chairman.
▶ 0:36:23Chair Lee: Thank you. We will go to senator padilla now. We are running up against the clock with members with competing assignments so if you can speak on the amendment and keep your remarks concise, I will recognize you as long as you want after we have voted. Go ahead, senator.
▶ 0:36:43Senator Padilla: This is important and as I begin to talk about the amendment before us, I also want to make a point to echo the ranking member's concerns about democrats being cut out of the process for scheduling bills on this markup. That includes colleagues my bill on the san joaquin river restoration settlement act which has historically moved together with senator hoeven's dakota water resources act.
▶ 0:37:07Senator Padilla: Moving forward I would hope we would get a fair consideration not just for that particular bill of mine but also my grow smart act and more water act. I hope we can work in good faith and find bipartisan compromises in this committee. The action that the majority seems to be on the verge of taking today erodes some of that good will. Right at the deadline the majority filed an amendment to the previously bipartisan wildfire bill to codify the repeal of the roadless rule.
▶ 0:37:39Senator Padilla: The last minute move destroys bipartisan opportunity for compromise on this one. Let me remind folks watching at home the 2001 roadless conservation rule was created through one of the most engs tensive and rigorous public rule making processes in history garnering over 1.6 million public comments with 95% of them in support by the way.
▶ 0:38:06Senator Padilla: The rule remains incredibly popular throughout the country with over half a million public comments in opposition to the administration's recent efforts to repeal the rule. We now see the republican majority on this committee working feverishly against the will of all of our constituents. So let me explain why the rool is so -- rule is so important to my home state of california.
▶ 0:38:28Senator Padilla: The rule protects four million acres of roadless areas in my state from the mountains in the north to the mountains in the south. These areas keep the head these areas keep the h headwates or important rivers clean, protect endangers species of wildlife and support the state's $74 billion outdoor recreation economy.
▶ 0:38:52Senator Padilla: To address the growing threat of wildfires, california is accelerating projects, improving practices in the urban interface and using fire as a natural process through prescribed burning. Republicans have claimed that the roadless rule has hindered wildfire mitigation efforts and it is simply false.
▶ 0:39:12Senator Padilla: In fact more than 240,000 acres of roadless land in california have undergone vegetarian maintenance and treatments to reduce wildfire risk and protect nearby communities. As this committee knows, every member of this committee knows, studies have also demonstrated that the fire threat increases by four times with established roads due to human caused ignitions.
▶ 0:39:39Senator Padilla: So opening inventory roadless areas to road construction would put rural communities at increased risk of fire. Finally members on both sides of the aisle in this committee have discussed the need to address our deferred maintenance backlog. There's over 370,000 miles of roads in our national forests. The forest service has $10.8 billion of deferred maintenance backlog. 55% of which is due to dilapidated roads.
▶ 0:40:07Senator Padilla: One of the main reasons the roadless rule was created was because these roads are so expensive to maintain. I can go on and on about the roadless rule what it means to my state and constituents but I have to go on record my disappointment on how republicans are pushing this poison pill in what is a tremendous bipartisan opportunity and proud to co-sponsor this amendment with senator wyden and senator cantwell. I thank them for their leadership.
▶ 0:40:36Chair Lee: Waiting to vote on -- we need to proceed to a vote on this amendment. >> absolutely. Can we vote first?
▶ 0:40:50Chair Lee: That's not much of a debate. >> we have heard three members.
▶ 0:40:56Chair Lee: I will keep it to 10 seconds. I am really disappointed -- I want to commend senator barrasso for working in a very bipartisan way on dealing with the wildfire threats that we are struggling with. I think putting the roadless rule repeal into this legislation just blows that up.
▶ 0:41:19Chair Lee: Let's proceed to a vote. On the second degree amendment. The clerk will call the role. >> Mr. lee. Mr. barrasso. >> no. >> Mr. risch. >> no. >> Mr. daines. >> no. >> Mr. cotton. >> no. >> Mr. mccormick. Mr. justice. Mr. cassidy. Ms. hide smith. Ms. murkowski. Mr. hoeven. Mr. heinrich.
▶ 0:41:50Sen. Heinrich: Yes. >> Ms. cantwell. Ms. hireno. >> yes by proxy. >> Mr. king. >> yes by proxy. >> Ms. cortez masto. Mr. hickenlooper. Mr. padilla. >> aye. >> Mr. gallego. >> yes by proxy. On this vote the nays are 11 and the yeas are nine.
▶ 0:42:13Chair Lee: Are there any other second degree amendments? >> Mr. chairman, I would like to bring up my amendment, number s. 140.
▶ 0:42:27Chair Lee: Go ahead. >> thank you, Mr. chairman. My second degree amendment to the wildfire prevention act is pretty simple. It would add back into the bill the important work force provisions that were negotiated and passed by this committee last year. By voice vote. These provisions provide critical benefits for federal firefighting work force just as we enter peak wildfire season.
▶ 0:42:51Chair Lee: These heroes protect our communities and I find it disheartening to see my colleagues many of whom say they support our federal firefighters and thank them when they respond to incidents strip out these provisions that they voted to support last congress. Specifically, this amendment would provide direct higher authority, correct bureaucratic error regarding federal firefighters specialized retirements and ensure federal firefighters rent never exceeds 30% of their base and locality pay.
▶ 0:43:19Chair Lee: I appreciate the work that we did last year in negotiating these provisions and approving them on a unanimous bipartisan basis. I hope my colleagues will support these same important provisions today. >> chairman, a question. I want to ask the sponsor of this amendment, this strikes me as extrordarily important. We will be faced with a threat and I think your amendment applies the housing as well. >> that is correct. >> I urge my colleagues to support the amendment.
▶ 0:43:52Chair Lee: >> Mr. chairman, there are many members on our side who may be willing to support the amendment but we have been unable to determine the exact cost to this. Without knowing the budgetary impact of the amendment or c.b.o. Score, which I believe is going to be significant I can't support it at this time so I would urge my colleagues to vote no. >> Mr. chairman.
▶ 0:44:10Chair Lee: Yes.
▶ 0:44:10Sen. Murkowski: I have a question. Perhaps this goes to committee counsel here but this is obviously a very important issue but you are talking about not only housing, but pension retirement benefits as well. My question is whether or not this actually falls within the jurisdiction of this committee. I am not disagreeing that we need to address this but I am curious as to whether or not within e.n.r. We have jurisdiction over this.
▶ 0:44:41Sen. Murkowski: >> for amendments there is no general requirement for germaneness. However if this were offered as an individual stand-alone bill, it would go to the senate par lamenter aaron and she would make an assessment about whether this bill should be referred to this committee but as an amendment there is no germaneness requirement. >> respectfully that wasn't a concern last time when we voice voted it out.
▶ 0:45:07Sen. Murkowski: >> in addition, I might add that if senator padilla had actually introduced this as an amendment on the senate floor, it would have been referred to the committee as a trailing amendment to s. 140 which the parliamentarian has already referred to the committee. There is a provision in the rules that prevents anyone from proposing an aiment that's not within the committee's jurisdiction.
▶ 0:45:36Sen. Murkowski: The fact it's a trailing amendment, it would -- it's appropriate for the committee to consider it.
▶ 0:45:41Chair Lee: We need to provide to question on this. The clerk will call the roll on the second degree amendment. >> Mr. lee. >> no. >> Mr. barrasso. >> no. >> Mr. risch. >> no. >> Mr. daines. >> no. >> Mr. cotton. >> no. >> Mr. mccormick. Mr. justice. Mr. cassidy. >> no. >> Ms. hyde-smith. Ms. murkowski. Mr. hoeven. >> no. >> Mr. heinrich. >> aye. >> Mr. wyden. >> aye. >> Ms. cantwell. Ms. hirono. >> yes by proxy.
▶ 0:46:12Chair Lee: >> Mr. king. >> yes by proxy. >> Ms. cortez masto. Mr. hickenlooper. Mr. padilla. >> aye. >> Mr. gallego. >> yes by proxy. >> on this vote the nays are 11, the yeas are 9.
▶ 0:46:31Chair Lee: We will turn to the question on senator barrasso's legislation. Go ahead. >> Mr. chairman, before we go to the vote at some point in time, I can do it after the vote but I would like to speak to the roadless rule. I deferred because of time but I would like to speak.
▶ 0:46:57Chair Lee: You got it. Clerk will call the roll. >> Mr. lee. >> aye. >> Mr. barrasso. Mr. risch. Mr. daines. Mr. cotton. >> aye. >> Mr. mccormick. Mr. justice. Mr. cassidy. Ms. hyde-smith. >> aye. >> Mr. hoeven. Mr. heinrich. >> no. >> Mr. wyden. >> no. >> Ms. cantwell. Ms. hirono.
▶ 0:47:27Chair Lee: >> no by proxy. >> Mr. king. >> no by proxy. >> Ms. cortez masto. Mr. hickenlooper. Mr. padilla. Mr. gallego. >> no by proxy. >> on this vote the yeas are 11, the nays are 9.
▶ 0:47:42Chair Lee: We will proceed to the question on the legislation, the barrasso bill. The clerk will call the roll. >> Mr. lee. >> aye. >> Mr. barrasso. Mr. risch. Mr. daines. Mr. cotton. Mr. mccormick. >> aye. >> Mr. justice. >> aye. >> Mr. cassidy. Ms. hyde-smith. Ms. murkowski. Mr. hoeven. Mr. heinrich.
▶ 0:48:13Chair Lee: Mr. wyden. Ms. cantwell. Ms. hirono. >> no by proxy. >> Mr. king. >> no by proxy. >> Ms. cortez masto. >> no. >> Mr. hickenlooper. Mr. padilla. >> no. >> Mr. gallego. >> no by proxy. >> on this vote the yeas are 11, the nays are 9.
▶ 0:48:30Chair Lee: We will proceed to the question on agenda item number 27. The clerk will call the roll. >> Mr. lee.
▶ 0:48:37Chair Lee: Aye. >> Mr. barrasso. Mr. risch. Mr. daines. Mr. cotton. >> aye. >> Mr. mccormick. >> aye. >> Mr. justice. Mr. cassidy. Ms. hyde-smith. >> aye. >> Ms. murkowski. >> aye. >> Mr. hoeven. Mr. heinrich. >> no. >> Mr. wyden.
▶ 0:48:58Sen. Wyden: No. >> Ms. cantwell.
▶ 0:49:02Sen. Cantwell: No. >> Ms. hirono.
▶ 0:49:04Chair Lee: No by proxy. >> Mr. king. Ms. cortez masto.
▶ 0:49:09Chair Lee: We are on the underlying bill. No, sorry, we are on -- proceed. >> chairman, I am not sure, we adopted the amendment by voice
▶ 0:49:39Chair Lee: Vote. We did? Ok. I apologize. Thank you for the clarification. Ms. cortez masto. >> the underlying bill -- >> yes. Thank you. Mr. hickenlooper. Mr. padilla. Mr. gallego. >> no by proxy.
▶ 0:50:08Chair Lee: >> on this vote, the yeas are 11, the nays are 9.
▶ 0:50:15Chair Lee: We will now proceed to agenda item number 32. Does anyone have any second degree amendments to agenda item number 32?
▶ 0:51:02Chair Lee: >> I have an amendment.
▶ 0:51:04Chair Lee: Proceed. >> I appreciate the improvements made in this -- hold on. >> I have an amendment number 32 action that I would like to call up. I understand that h.r.
▶ 0:51:28Chair Lee: 3872 is intended to allow hard rock mineral development on acquired lands where there's no current authority to lease hard rock minerals for development, military installations, core of engineers projects or d.o.e. Lands. The bill doesn't affect public domain lands which are most of the public lands in the west and doesn't affect acquired national forests in the east which are governed by a separate statute.
▶ 0:51:56Chair Lee: I am not opposed to developing hard rock minerals on military or corps of engineers lands as long as the mineral development does not interfere with the main mission of those lands, whether national defense or for that matter flood control. I am concerned, however, that this bill also opens up hard rock mining on lands that were acquired with funding from the land and water conservation fund or from the federal land transaction facilitation act.
▶ 0:52:26Chair Lee: These funds acquire public lands for conservation and for recreational use. But because they are acquired lands, minerals on them are governed by the mineral leasing act for aquierdz lands -- acquired lands, the law this underlined bill ames today. While the m.l.a.
▶ 0:52:43Chair Lee: Excludes areas within national parks, national monuments, that exclusion does not cover many acquisitions especially those targeting recreational access to public lands which open up new trail heads or new stream access, new access for hunters and fishermen. We want to be able to protect those acquisitions and maintain that access. Many projects are just effectively regular b.l.m.
▶ 0:53:12Chair Lee: Or forest service land but they facilitate those access points. My amendment simply ensures that land acquired for the public with land and water fund conservation dollars or lands acquired for the purpose of recreation conservation and wildlife habitat are not unintentionally open to hard rock mining by this bill.
▶ 0:53:34Chair Lee: I know that was not the sponsor's intent but if we can adopt this amendment it will close potential loophole and I would be happy to vote for the underlying bill. >> to respond on that, I will defer my comments until afterwards. I would like the clerk to call the roll on heinrich amendment 33. >> Mr. lee. >> no. >> Mr. with a bsh barrasso. >> no. >> Mr. risch. Mr. daines. Mr. cotton. >> no. >> Mr. mccormick. Mr. justice. >> no.
▶ 0:54:05Chair Lee: >> Mr. cassidy. >> no by proxy. >> Ms. hyde-smith. Ms. murkowski. Mr. hoeven. Mr. heinrich.
▶ 0:54:14Sen. Heinrich: Aye. >> Mr. wyden.
▶ 0:54:17Sen. Wyden: Aye. >> Ms. cantwell.
▶ 0:54:20Sen. Cantwell: Aye. >> Ms. hirono.
▶ 0:54:22Chair Lee: Aye by proxy. >> Mr. king. >> aye by proxy. >> hickenlooper. >> Mr. padilla. >> aye. >> Mr. gallego. >> aye by proxy. >> on this vote the yeas are 11, the nays are 9.
▶ 0:54:36Chair Lee: Senator heinrich, do you have another amendment?
▶ 0:54:49Sen. Heinrich: Mr. chair, I have an additional amendment to h.r. 3872. That is titled amendment 32-b. The mineral development enabled by h.r. 3872 will pay a royalty just like all minerals produced under federal mineral leases for budget purposes that revenue is new revenue.
▶ 0:55:10Sen. Heinrich: My amendment would take that revenue from this newly authorized hard rock mining and it would dedicate it to the abandoned hard rock mine reclamation program that this committee created in the bipartisan infrastructure bill. That program which senator daines and I worked together to create provides funding to clean up old abandoned hard rock mines. These mines are in almost every state in the nation.
▶ 0:55:35Sen. Heinrich: They're particularly numerous in new mexico, colorado, utah, montana, idaho, and they continue to leak pollution into our streams and rivers, poisoning fish habitat, contaminating farm fields in some cases. These are mines that have not operated in decades and any previous owner of them no longer exists. The estimated cleanup cost for all of them nationwide is roughly $50 billion, with a b.
▶ 0:56:08Sen. Heinrich: Currently there is no dedicated funding source for the reclamation program that all of us created in 2021. My amendment would take the new royalties that will be generated by h.r. 3872 and dedicate them to cleaning up these abandoned mines so that they can no longer pollute our waterways. These are revenues that mining companies will be paying anyway and I hope we can direct them towards fixing this problem that has plagued western states and communities for decades.
▶ 0:56:39Chair Lee: Thank you. We will now proceed to the question on amendment 32-b. The clerk will call the roll. >> Mr. lee.
▶ 0:56:47Chair Lee: No. >> Mr. barrasso.
▶ 0:56:48Sen. Barrasso: No. >> Mr. risch. Mr. daines. Mr. cotton. Mr. mccormick. Mr. justice. Mr. cassidy. >> no by proxy. >> Ms. hyde-smith. Ms. murkowski. Mr. hoeven. Mr. heinrich.
▶ 0:57:06Sen. Heinrich: Aye. >> Mr. wyden.
▶ 0:57:07Sen. Wyden: Aye. >> Ms. cantwell.
▶ 0:57:11Sen. Cantwell: Aye. >> Ms. hirono. >> aye by proxy. >> Mr. king. >> aye by proxy. >> Ms. cortez masto.
▶ 0:57:18Sen. Cortez Masto: Aye. Mr. hickenlooper. Mr. padilla. On this vote, the yeas are 11, the nays are 9.
▶ 0:57:26Chair Lee: Now we have the bill, the clerk will call the roll on the bill. >> Mr.ley Mr. lee. Mr. barrasso. Mr. risch. Mr. daines. Mr. cotsen. >> aye. >> Mr. mccormick. >> aye. >> Mr. justice.
▶ 0:57:45Sen. Justice: Aye. >> Mr. cassidy. >> aye by proxy. >> Ms. hyde-smith.
▶ 0:57:53Sen. Hyde-Smith: Aye. >> Ms. murkowski. Mr. hoeven. Mr. heinrich.
▶ 0:57:58Sen. Heinrich: No. >> Mr. wyden. >> no. >> Ms. cantwell.
▶ 0:58:01Sen. Cantwell: No. >> Ms. hirono. >> no by proxy. >> Mr. king. >> no by proxy. >> Ms. cortez masto. Mr. hickenlooper. Mr. padilla. >> no. >> Mr. gallego. >> no by proxy. >> on this vote the yeas are 11, the nays are 9.
▶ 0:58:22Chair Lee: Now we will go to agenda item number 33, does anyone have any amendments on 33? >> Mr. chair, I have one. >> go ahead. >> I have an amendment, number 33-a that I would like to call up in this amendment and this is simple. Usually when congress passes legislation to sell small parcells of national forestland, it directs the money received from the sale to a special fund in the treasury.
▶ 0:58:46Chair Lee: That fund was created by the sisk acted and was used to require national forestland in the state where land sale produced -- where the land sale produced those revenues. So in this case, because h.r. 3937 sells national forestland in wisconsin, the act would ensure that the proceeds of that sale are used to acquire replacements land in the state of wisconsin.
▶ 0:59:12Chair Lee: This ensures that small reasonable land sales like this one do not reduce the amount of public access to public lands for all americans and keeps the funding in the state where the revenues were created.
▶ 0:59:28Chair Lee: You are asking for a role call amendment. The clerk will call the roll. >> Mr. lee.
▶ 0:59:34Chair Lee: No. >> Mr. barrasso. Mr. risch. Mr. daines. Mr. cotton. >> no. >> Mr. mccormick. Mr. justice.
▶ 0:59:41Sen. Justice: No. >> Mr. cassidy. >> no by proxy. >> Ms. hyde-smith.
▶ 0:59:47Sen. Hyde-Smith: No. >> Ms. murkowski. Mr. hoeven. Mr. heinrich.
▶ 0:59:51Sen. Heinrich: Aye. >> Ms. wiedzen. Ms. cantwell. Ms. hirono. >> aye by proxy. >> Mr. king. Mr. hickenlooper. >> Mr. padilla. >> aye. >> on this vote the yeas are 11, the nays are 9.
▶ 1:00:07Chair Lee: Any additional amendments on agenda item number 33? Seeing none we will proceed to a roll call vote on agenda item 33, clerk will call the roll. >> Mr. lee.
▶ 1:00:17Chair Lee: Aye. >> Mr. barrasso. Mr. risch. Mr. daines. Mr. cotton. >> aye. >> Mr. mccormick.
▶ 1:00:25Sen. Mccormick: Aye. >> Mr. justice. Mr. cassidy. Ms. hyde-smith. Ms. murkowski. Mr. hoeven. Mr. heinrich.
▶ 1:00:36Sen. Heinrich: No. >> Mr. wyden.
▶ 1:00:38Sen. Wyden: No. >> Ms. cantwell.
▶ 1:00:40Sen. Cantwell: No. >> Ms. hirono. >> no by proxy. >> Mr. king. >> yes by proxy. >> Ms. cortez masto.
▶ 1:00:49Sen. Cortez Masto: No. >> Mr. hickenlooper. Mr. padilla. >> no. >> Mr. gallego. >> no by proxy. >> the yeas are 12, the nays are 8.
▶ 1:01:01Chair Lee: The committee will vote on 13 bills by voice vote. They are s. 332, s. 779, s. 1288, s. 2437 with h.r. 3857, s. 2753, s. 3500 with h.r. 3657, s. 3518, s. 3723. S. 3736, s.
▶ 1:01:24Chair Lee: 3792, s.3867 and s. 4040. All those in favor. >> aye.
▶ 1:01:34Chair Lee: All those opposed. The ayes do have it. These bills will be reported favorably to the senate. At this time I wish to recognize any senator who wants to be heard on any of the bills we voted on today and go ahead. Senator risch.
▶ 1:01:55Sen. Risch: Mr. chairman, anybody -- I want to talk about the one that has the roadless rule because I have a particular interest in that baugh anybody watching this from the outside would think that the two sides here are deeply divided on these issues. We really aren't. I have found every time we have worked on these there is little daylight between us and almost always there is some middle ground that you can get to.
▶ 1:02:17Sen. Risch: We haven't done that on the votes this morning but obviously I think as we are going forward we ought to double our efforts to try to get these things through to where we can get everybody behind them. I want to talk for a minute about the roadless rule. I want to explain the way I voted on this. Idaho doesn't have a dog in the fight. The reason is, we have resolved this in idaho.
▶ 1:02:43Sen. Risch: In 2006, the president at that time invited every state to take up the question of the roadless rule and see if they could develop their own rule because the federal government had dealt with this since the wilderness pieces were put on the books. These were pieces that were left over but they couldn't agree on, said we will take it up later. As a result when the republicans were in, they would pass a rule where it could be used more. When the democrats were in they passed a rule that said it would bees use -- be used less.
▶ 1:03:13Sen. Risch: There are hundreds of lawsuits filed over this none of which were resolved because the new administration would come in before the suits were resolved. In any event in 2006, the president said states see if you can do it. Idaho was one and colorado was the other who took this up.
▶ 1:03:32Sen. Risch: In idaho, we had a governor who had a vision at the time even more wisdom and brought together at the table a collaborative group that represented the entire spectrum -- well, history will record that. >> jim risch.
▶ 1:03:51Sen. Risch: In any event, we sat at the table and hammered the thing out. We had 200 parcels that we signed, five different themes to. We voted on them. We all agreed we could stick together. Everybody got something. We walked away from the table with a rule that went to the district court. It was affirmed, went to the ninth circuit. It was affirmed. Went to the supreme court. They declined to take jurisdiction so it is the law in idaho.
▶ 1:04:20Sen. Risch: Every time now a roadless rule comes up, idaho is always excluded. The president when he did an executive order on this, as we all know, excludessed the idaho rule and in this particular bill, the idaho rule was also excluded. This can be done but it takes real hard work and it takes a collaborative effort.
▶ 1:04:43Sen. Risch: I would urge that everyone -- every state that has roadless in it yougate collaborative movement going and get a deal done. So we stop these lawsuits and we stop wasting our time on this as we fight back and forth. Again as I said, when you sit down at the table and talk about this, you find that there is very little -- >> will the senator yield for a question?
▶ 1:05:09Sen. Risch: The senator will. >> senator risch, isn't the essence of this trying to figure out the best strategy for our lands and to be efficient and isn't that discussion in idaho, wasn't it about there are some areas where it was inefficient to build roads, it just was and you made those decisions.
▶ 1:05:27Sen. Risch: That's true. What we founds with the 200 par what we founds with the 200 p parcels and each parcel fell naturally into one of those. There were some that were close to general forest and they should be general forest. Should be able to harvest trees. There are other ones nobody will build a road in there and almost no one would want to see the land developed because it was wilderness kind of ground.
▶ 1:05:55Sen. Risch: We actually got through this and it was republicans, democrats, liberals, conservatives, and we reached an agreement to where we could all live with and most importantly, this is nine million acres we are talking about that we wrestled away from the federal government, wrote our own rule for it and it is managed by the committee of idahoans that is oi pointed by the governor.
▶ 1:06:20Sen. Risch: It remains with the united states government but we manage it and you know what, since this happened, not one lawsuit regarding our roadless area in idaho. This can be done. It would save a lot of time and like I said, all of us want the same thing for the public. We love our public lands. We wants to use them, protect them, and each piece is different. It should be treated differently. This can be done. Thank you, Mr. chairman.
▶ 1:06:46Chair Lee: Before we conclude the business portion of our meeting and proceed to the hearing I want to make sure we allow anybody who wants to speak to do so. Senator murkowski, thanks for your patience. Anyone else can speak afterwards. Go ahead.
▶ 1:07:01Sen. Murkowski: Thank you, Mr. chairman. I really appreciate the comments from senator risch because for us in alaska, the roadless rule has been a real challenge for us for decades. Most alaskans maintain the roadless rule should never have applied to alaska. We didn't ask for it. We consistently opposed it. It's never been a good fit for us.
▶ 1:07:27Sen. Murkowski: When you think about particularly in the tongas because this is where most of the attention is directed, but with or without the roadless rule, the forest areas within the tongas remain fully protected through existing laws and other regulations so you can have a roadsless rule come in, but in terms of the areas that have been protected and it's some 9.2 million acres, that is
▶ 1:07:58Sen. Murkowski: Just off the top are not subject to application of the roadless rule. Dlr some who believe -- there are some who believe that if you remove the roadless rule, somehow or other everything in our forest is available. For access and that's simply not the case.
▶ 1:08:27Sen. Murkowski: In our situation, the concern has been with an overlay of the roadless rule. It makes it near impossible to be able to provide for what we would determine to be necessary projects and that's when you are trying to allow for a hydro transmission to connect two small islanded areas so that they can receive power, pretty
▶ 1:08:57Sen. Murkowski: Basic stuff. We not asking for permission to clear-cut an area. We are not asking -- it's not about harvesting. It's being able to access for whether it's energy, renewable energy resources. It just makes it more expensive. They say, you can do it but it's all helicopter logging. You tell me how you are going to put in a transmission line when you are literally taking one tree at a time by helicopter logging.
▶ 1:09:25Sen. Murkowski: And then to senator risch's point, this is something that I think should be left to the individual states. If you want a roadless rule, go for it. If you don't, you should be able to say no or you should be able to work the deals and they are hard because every acre is important. Certainly I know in the tongas every acre is precious.
▶ 1:09:51Sen. Murkowski: We have been battling this for years and in fairness, what happens is we see this kind of a ping-pong effect between administrations in terms of what can happen within it and what is taken off the table.
▶ 1:10:08Sen. Murkowski: And that stalls out any level of economic activity, whether it is limited timber harvest or whether it is opportunity for more renewable power to proceed or for tourism. Speaking of renewable power to proceed, I will be very quick, Mr. chairman, but I want to thank you and the ranking member for bringing the flows act before the committee today.
▶ 1:10:36Sen. Murkowski: I want to thank senator king for his help on this, his partnership. For us in alaska, it's hydropower and this is what makes it happen. But so often our operators face these unnecessary and oftentimes just really ridiculous delays when they're trying to maintain or to upgrade existing facilities.
▶ 1:10:59Sen. Murkowski: We have got short construction season, project sites that are remote, you can lose a full season with a simple permitting delay. So there's real consequences there. So what we do is we preserve ferc's authority over major project modifications and dam safety but greater certainty routine maintenance, replacement, adjustments can move forward without unnecessary delay.
▶ 1:11:26Sen. Murkowski: This is helping us really unlock this next generation of water power technologies, so what we have is a licensing pathway that is better suited for these smaller, innovative projects. I know senator cortez masto has been working on some of these other hydro initiatives. I think this is a space where we can continue to do more, whether it's in alaska or in other parts of the country. I thank the committee for advancing it out this morning.
▶ 1:11:58Sen. Murkowski: >> Mr. chairman.
▶ 1:11:59Chair Lee: Yes. >> if I could make one quick comment, I think that what senator risch said is so prescient, which is to listen to the people in that state. I think roadless rule is a public process and you do hear from people in your state, and you do take that information and figure out how to make the best decisions.
▶ 1:12:20Chair Lee: I am not saying risch for governor of alaska, but anyway, I am definitely -- [laughter] but I am -- I am saying it is proof that the process can work. Thank you, Mr. chairman.
▶ 1:12:36Chair Lee: It's got a nice ring to it. All right. So on the order right now, we have senator hickenlooper, then senator padilla, then senator heinrich. Senator daines sought recognition. Were you making a point in response or do you want to get in the speaking order? All right. If it's ok we will hear from daines and then go to you.
▶ 1:12:56Sen. Daines: Briefly, senator risch thank you for your words of common sense and reason. I would hope that the idaho model will spread throughout the west and I sure don't want to spoil the broth here that we have had in this committee of really making great bipartisan progress as relates to forest management reform to be better stewards of our public lands.
▶ 1:13:17Sen. Daines: So I think this is a difficult moment in the committee on the roadless rule, and I think there is frustration, we have over 300 million board feet of timber tied up in litigation in montana and I think the pendulum swings back and forth too far at times.
▶ 1:13:35Sen. Daines: The chairman and ranking member, I do hope we can continue the spirit of dialogue and cooperation and maybe governor risch could insert himself and help us see the better path forward as it relates to being better stewards and better outcomes on policy.
▶ 1:13:55Chair Lee: Senator hickenlooper.
▶ 1:13:57Sen. Hickenlooper: Thank you, Mr. chair. I am grateful to you and to ranking member heinrich for including some of the priorities that benefit colorado today. Help us manage water in the face of the severe drought we are dealing with, comes from building capacity of water managers to develop projects that make the most of supplies we have and making sure we stay at the cutting edge of water forecasting by understanding our snow pack. A year like this one we have to make the most of every drop.
▶ 1:14:24Sen. Hickenlooper: One exaferl, one tribe in southwestern corner of colorado expected to receive less than 14% of its typical water allocation or supply this year. That's a dramatic cut that we see play out on the fields of the tribe's farms and ripples across the region's economy. We see the severity of this crisis in farms and communities across the colorado river basin which I am glads we will get a chance to discuss later this morning.
▶ 1:14:52Sen. Hickenlooper: We are breaking records for how low we can go.projected inflow n low we can go.projected inflow l will be 35% for this water year. Thank you to senator lee for giving us a chance to address this by working with us through water management tools in the water management act reauthorization. I would hope that the bipartisan work we have done can translate into other issues we face.
▶ 1:15:22Sen. Hickenlooper: I care deeply about our response to wildfire, not just because of the decades long drought in the colorado river basin, but because of the way that it has affected communities, water quality, and even insurance costs in colorado. We can work on wildfire in a bipartisan way because we have done it. One of the bills on the agenda today addresses wildfire and I voted for that bill in previous form.
▶ 1:15:49Sen. Hickenlooper: Unfortunately, the amendment in the process, added late in the process, would at the full on appeal of the rule on the bill. When I first came in as the governor of colorado, we were going for the process of that rule and what the senator described as collaboration between republicans and democrats in various industries and citizens, outdoor recreations.
▶ 1:16:15Sen. Hickenlooper: That effort, and we had hundreds of thousands of people participating in that. This doesn't affect us, like idaho, but the random cancellation of that rule is not a constructive idea that I would support. A rule that 75% of the voters supported in a poll this year, and 75% rarely support anything. They support this rule.
▶ 1:16:44Sen. Hickenlooper: I know how important the protection of this role is for the watersheds that we all love. I stand with my colleagues who will vote to try to strip this poison pill out, to do something that should help us respond to wildfire.
▶ 1:16:59Sen. Hickenlooper: I am co-leading an amendment with my colleague here, senator padilla, to use the approach we took in several sections of this filth where we can find a bipartisan path on several elements that appeared in both fields for a vote today, but in laying out a marker we are ready to project partisan points scoring. Let's collaborate more constructively on real solutions. Back to the chair.
▶ 1:17:25Chair Lee: Senator padilla?
▶ 1:17:29Senator Padilla: I would like to echo the secondment of my colleague from colorado. For the folks watching at home, this committee may not be as divided as it appears to be today. Exhibit a is the work that we did today with senator sheen, curtis, and others as we craft at the senate version of the fix our force act. -- forest act. True, bipartisan, substantive, meaningful legislation.
▶ 1:18:00Senator Padilla: That's why it was so dispiriting today, that goodwill is being undermined by what we saw happen and how it happened. Could not agree more in terms of bringing stakeholders together on some of these natural resource and land use decisions. It's how california has approached our proposals for national monument designations, for example.
▶ 1:18:25Senator Padilla: All to hear that it is potentially being revisited by the administration for no good reason. It is how we have improved air quality in california, through the previously held clean air act authorities that the state of california had that the republican majority stripped from california on a partisan basis.
▶ 1:18:49Senator Padilla: So, clearly I'm registering my frustration with the way the committee has operated today regarding several forest refurb fruit -- forest free provisions, including the nature of the substitute for 140. Not only does it have a poison pill in the form of codifying the rule on repeal, but clearly it makes it a partisan change to the provisions, many of which are included in the act that senator hickenlooper just highlighted, work hard on that.
▶ 1:19:20Senator Padilla: The edits adopted today, they actually move us backwards in the goodwill in the progress made in the senate version of the fix our forest act. I will remind just that three republican members of this committee sat on the agriculture committee and rooted for the senate version of the fix our forest act after extensive discussion and debate.
▶ 1:19:46Senator Padilla: Their actions here today to undermine the progress in the momentum of that bill. We had it in an amendment offered today to fix some of that language and realigned with the fix our forest act. We chose not to bring it up.
▶ 1:20:10Senator Padilla: But we are awaiting that good faith to reappear with our republican colleagues in order to bring the measure adopted today back to its true bipartisan form, to remind ourselves in the folks watching, remind the general public that bipartisan legislative packages are indeed still possible. Seemingly increasingly rare today.
▶ 1:20:35Senator Padilla: But if we can channel that goodwill, that spirit, I think that we can reengage in good faith to move along the senate version of the fix the forest act. As well as other previously bipartisan, many unanimous measures put through by this committee in the past. Thank you, Mr. shannon. >> thank you. Senator heinrich? >> thank you. I want to reinforce the comments of my colleagues.
▶ 1:21:02Senator Padilla: We had a very bipartisan wildfire focused bill here. Now we have a very partisan bill. In part, we need to make sure that this is consistent with fix our forests, which had an enormous amount of bipartisan effort that went into that legislation and I want to commend my colleagues for their work on it. The workforce provisions were seemingly completely uncontroversial in the previous congress.
▶ 1:21:30Senator Padilla: If you don't think we have workforce problems with our firefighting readiness on the ground across the west, you haven't sat down at your local district ranger office to talk to people. It is concerning. The biggest issue here, the elephant in the room, is the fact that the wildfire legislation came a trojan horse for repealing the roadless rule. That's the tail wagging the dog. That is a huge change for our country.
▶ 1:21:58Senator Padilla: In my state, at least, I went to those hearings. They were overwhelmingly positive. I engaged across the board with my sportsman, my recreational interests, grazing interests. You name it in new mexico. We have -- it's not broken, new mexico. Don't let D.C.
▶ 1:22:19Senator Padilla: Come and tell me that we have a problem in new mexico when our biggest problem is just getting enough resources and enough staff to get into our forest to do treatments because we do treatments. Hazardous fuel treatments in roadless areas. And we should.
▶ 1:22:42Senator Padilla: So, we took a previously largely bipartisan constructive wildfire effort and now it has become a partisan pitched battle over repealing the roadless area. That is a poster child example for how to do get successful legislation done. And I am disappointed.
▶ 1:23:03Chair Lee: All right, before we wrap this up, let me just say that the roadless rule was a bad idea in 2001 and it remains a bad idea today, a quarter of a century later. It restricts access for multiple use on nearly 59 million acres of forest service land. In ways that in different respects have a tendency to increase wildfire risk in endangered communities and limit economic activity.
▶ 1:23:35Chair Lee: There is no explicit statutory authority directing the forest service to do this, to create inventory of roadless areas. It has weak havoc on a lot of western communities, including in my state, the state of utah. Anyways, that's my point. With that, unless anyone else wants to speak before we conclude our business meeting?
▶ 1:23:59Chair Lee: Seeing no one seeking recognition on that part, we hereby conclude the business meeting portion of our gathering today and we will proceed, now, to the opening of the colorado river hearing. We will begin that hearing just by observing a few things.
▶ 1:24:29Chair Lee: For the colorado river basin, the upper basin states, colorado, new mexico, utah, wyoming, and the lower basin states, including arizona, california, and nevada, continue to negotiate new water management guidelines to replace existing operating agreements. Agreements that in their current form are set to expire at the end of this year, the end of 2026.
▶ 1:24:56Chair Lee: The states were expected to reach an agreement by november 11 at 2025. To execute a final agreement by february 14 of this year. Regrettably, the states were not able to reach an agreement and could not meet either of those deadlines. In the absence of an agreement, the department of the interior was expected to impose a plan for post-2026 colorado river operations.
▶ 1:25:26Chair Lee: Whether the states reach an agreement, or alternatively interior proposes a plan, congress might be expected to pass a legislation formalizing necessary federal authorizations for appropriations. But next, I will yield two ranking member senator heinrich for his opening statement on this.
▶ 1:25:51Chairman -- Sen. Heinrich: Thank you, chairman, and thank you for convening this hearing. He could not be more timely. We are joined by witnesses who understand the high stakes is what our communities stand to lose if the seven states fail to reach a deal. The colorado river is the backbone of water supply for millions of people, a cornerstone of western agriculture and energy production and a lifeline for tribal communities, fish, wildlife, and working landscapes across the basin.
▶ 1:26:23Chairman -- Sen. Heinrich: In new mexico, every drop of water matters to our communities, pueblos, barnes, and ranches, protecting this resource means we need collaboration. Solutions that benefit both people and ecosystems with long-term investment grounded in today's hydrologic reality. That means existing in both built and natural infrastructure .
▶ 1:26:48Chairman -- Sen. Heinrich: As conditions across the basin become hotter and drier, investments in watershed restoration, forest resilience, and wildfire risk reduction are looking for sustaining durable water supplies can protecting the system as a whole. We must invest in the watersheds and landscapes that produce and deliver water in the first place, or we risk building strategies around water that never actually reach the system we are trying to protect.
▶ 1:27:15Chairman -- Sen. Heinrich: That reality places significant responsibility on the department of the interior. Interior must uphold tribal trust responsibilities, protect critical infrastructure, and help to ensure the long-term reliability of the river system that so many communities depend on. I want to be candid here.
▶ 1:27:36Chairman -- Sen. Heinrich: I understand the department is working on a short-term two-year two year operating plan, and that is incredibly important work, but at times it feels that apartment is so focused on managing the challenge right in front of us that it is also losing sight on the path towards a durable long-term agreement. The basin should not be chose -- forced to choose between stabilizing the present and negotiating the future. We need both.
▶ 1:28:03Chairman -- Sen. Heinrich: Everyone agrees the seven state consensus agreement is the preferred outcome, but I am concerned that interior spent a great deal of thought -- time focused on short-term operations. The department has yet to focus on a clear strategy on a long-term agreement that everyone says they want. Federal leadership alone is also not enough. The states need to make some difficult decisions. Meaningful compromises to reach agreement.
▶ 1:28:30Chairman -- Sen. Heinrich: The federal government also has a responsibility to create urgency, maintain momentum, and provide a clear framework for getting these negotiations across the finish line. Without a seven state agreement, the consequences are clear, more litigation, unplanned water shortages, economic disruption, and heightened risk communities least able to absorb it.
▶ 1:28:52Chairman -- Sen. Heinrich: Delay carries its own consequences in the basin can no longer afford to wait for it in 2022 that then commissioner warned this committee that the basin needed to conserve 2 million to 4 million acre-feet of water to protect the system. The warning was at a time when elevations in lake mead and lake powell were projected to reach historic lows. Today, lake powell sits at approximately 25% capacity with projections showing continued vulnerability absent sustained action.
▶ 1:29:22Chairman -- Sen. Heinrich: For years the seven basin states have been negotiating the same fundamental questions, reductions, releases, and shared responsibility. What we cannot afford his delay. If the states cannot act together, decisions will increasingly be made through crisis, the courts, federal intervention. Outcomes that bring additional uncertainty rather than stability, making it hard to achieve the consensus solution we should all prefer.
▶ 1:29:50Chairman -- Sen. Heinrich: As ben franklin warned, when the well is dry, we learn the worth of water. The responsibility before us now is to act before the lesson becomes irreversible. The basin needs compromise, shared sacrifice, investment, leadership, and it needs them now. I look forward to hearing from our witnesses today.
▶ 1:30:09Chair Lee: Thank you so much, senator, for your compliments as well. We will hear today now from our witnesses to better understand those witnesses -- issues. Our first panel includes the honorable andrea travnicek, assistant secretary of the interior for water and science at the department of interior, and Mr. david palumbo, the deputy commissioner of operations at the U.S. bureau of reclamation.
▶ 1:30:39Chair Lee: And then the witnesses on our second panel will be as follows. Miss amy hass, the executive director of -- sorry, avocados are one thing, hass, not hass -- sorry for the mispronunciation. I hope I got it right the second time. Mr.
▶ 1:31:05Chair Lee: Mike vickrey, rancher from the green river valley cattlemen's association, here introduced by our colleague, senator barrasso. And then Mr. tom kiernan, president and chief executive officer of the nonprofit organization known as american rivers. Finally, Mr.
▶ 1:31:26Chair Lee: Bill hasencamp, the manager of the colorado river resources at the metropolitan water district of southern california. With that, I will note that the colorado river is one of the most important water systems at the united states.
▶ 1:31:49Chair Lee: In new mexico, arizona, nevada, it irrigates more than 5 million acres of farmland, hydro power generated by the rivers, cities, ranches, industries, tribes, and local economies across the west. The river is currently facing enormous pressure and is under significant strain. As of sunday a few days ago, the colorado river system stood at approximately 34% of total system capacity.
▶ 1:32:21Chair Lee: Slightly over one third of capacity. This is truly, truly staggering. Lake powell and lake mead are at 23.5% and 25 point 3% capacity, respectively.
▶ 1:32:37Chair Lee: Over the last year, lake powell has fallen 172 feet below flow pool and it now sits at only about 37 feet above the minimum powerful needed to generate hydropower. This is one that I have gotten a lot of personal experience with, I've been visiting lake powell since I was a child. As a child I remember seeing the high watermark.
▶ 1:33:05Chair Lee: It was sometimes 10, 15 to 20 feet above where we saw the surface of the water at the time. Now we are pushing close to 200 feet below its high watermark. This latter figure, about 37 feet above minimum power is truly very different.
▶ 1:33:40Chair Lee: Needless to say it would be very bad to dip below the minimum powerful. 0 it is important to remember that not every state experience is the hydrology of the river in the same way. The upper basin lives what hydrologic shortages every year. We cannot order or water when nature provides less, we cannot draw water that doesn't exist. We cannot will it or legislate it into existence.
▶ 1:34:09Chair Lee: It's a lot more complicated than that. We take, of course, but the river gives. As a result, upper basin states have absorbed reductions imposed by nature, consistently using less than their full compact apportionments. Despite already bearing those realities, upper basin states continue to face demands from lower basin states for additional cuts. Bringing us to where we are today.
▶ 1:34:38Chair Lee: For years, the basin states were given the opportunity to negotiate about forward. Senator heinrich and I are reaching a seven state agreement because we believe that it would be the best solution developed by the states themselves in the same could be said of all the basin states in the senate delegation's, where we met repeatedly over means -- recent months, and where we all shared to a significant degree the same overall objective.
▶ 1:35:09Chair Lee: Congress gave the states room to negotiate. The department gave the states room to negotiate. When the states asked for more time, they received it. Deadline after deadline has passed. The late may and early june target slept. The november. In february. Here we are today, still without an agreement. Instead, we are seeing increasingly unhelpful rhetoric from some of the states.
▶ 1:35:37Chair Lee: We have lower basin state commissioners taking out ads in local newspapers attacking the upper basin. We are reading reports that some of these states are actively preparing for litigation. We have negotiating positions with more design for future court filings and for good faith efforts to reach a compromise. States that choose to sue their fellow basin states over the operation should not expect congress to report the decision with additional federal funding.
▶ 1:36:07Chair Lee: Federal taxpayers should not be asked to subsidize litigation on the states. Now as the department develops a post 26 operating framework, there is a fact that should focus everyone's attention. Congress will not be a bystander in this process.
▶ 1:36:26Chair Lee: The compact call -- clause and the constitution of article one, section 10, gives congress approval authority and the responsibility to approve interstate compacts and any long-term framework for the river will face congressional scrutiny because our compact clause authority is triggered any time the states enter into an interstate compact that alters the balance between the states and federal sovereign. That scrutiny will include whether the department has fully accounted for the realities facing the upper basin.
▶ 1:36:59Chair Lee: Now, any proposal that ignores those realities or asks the upper basin to shoulder even greater burdens without regard to the governing legal framework will face a difficult path forward. The current guidelines expire on october 1, 20 26. Time is running short. The river and those who rely on it cannot afford more delays. Whatever happens next must remain grounded by hydrological realities.
▶ 1:37:29Chair Lee: The law of the river and respect for our neighbors. I look forward to hearing from our witnesses. But before we go to them, I recognize you. Ok, good. I am now going to our witnesses on our first panel to give their opening statements. Your full, written statements will be made part of the river -- not part of the river. That would be fun, but part of the record.
▶ 1:37:58Chair Lee: We will begin today with the assistant secretary. We are grateful to have you here . The assistant secretary is, as I mentioned briefly, the assistant secretary for water and science at the department of the interior, a place she was confirmed in the senate of 2025. She has a decorated, distinguished record of public service in the water and natural resources space, previously serving in various roles in the north dakota state government.
▶ 1:38:31Chair Lee: You are now recognized.
▶ 1:38:32Ms. Travnicek: Great, thank you. Thank you for the opportunity to provide an update on the drop in conditions in the colorado river basin. The actions this year to address them and our approach to protecting that system over the next 10 years. The colorado river basin is in its 27th year of historic drought. Lake powell, lake mead, the largest reservoirs, are approaching record lows.
▶ 1:39:04Ms. Travnicek: Long-term drought has reduced total system storage to roughly 35% and the basin has been exceptionally dry through 20 26. On record, approximately 950,000 acre-feet. Combined with a record-breaking spring heat and the lowest snowpack ever recorded, the conditions have created significant operational challenges and heightened risk to essential water and power infrastructure.
▶ 1:39:31Ms. Travnicek: In april the department took two major actions to stabilize the system, all prize -- authorizing releases from the gorge damme with up to one million acre-feet through the 27th, reducing annual releases by 1.4 million acre-feet down to 6 million acre-feet from the glen canyon damme. 6 million acre-feet through september.
▶ 1:39:54Ms. Travnicek: Together the actions are expected to raise the elevation by 54 feet to at least 3500 elevation feet by april of 2027, helping to protect critical infrastructure, maintaining water deliveries, and preserving operational flexibility. Challenges that coincide with the expiration is mentioned at the end of this year of the key operating agreements that have guided river management for the past two decades.
▶ 1:40:17Ms. Travnicek: Hence the administration spent the past 14 months working to prevent -- work and proposals for operations to facilitate multiparty discussions, operating proposals and pressing for agreements while ensuring timelines for sufficient incorporation of feedback within the process. In addition, secretary berger met twice with baystate governors for consensus and despite the efforts, the seven state agreement has yet to emerge.
▶ 1:40:47Ms. Travnicek: January the draft for post 26 operations was released with five alternatives providing coverage and flexibility for the department and the states to provide an alternative and while we continue to believe that a consensus as the most durable path forward, the new water year begins october 1.
▶ 1:41:04Ms. Travnicek: Since march the department has been reviewing and responding to submissions, participating in government to government consultations, updating analysis and developing the alternative with a focus that remains on protecting the system and ensuring the long-term sustainability of the basin with our proposed approach right now being a 10 year framework. We would love a longer framework as well.
▶ 1:41:26Ms. Travnicek: Right now, we don't have consensus which is why we are focused on this 10 year framework that would allow operational guidelines to be issued at regular intervals, thus guided by a set of principles and defined processes. The goal is to produce a balance and the need for certainty and stability with a need to adjust to evolving conditions in the absence of consensus.
▶ 1:41:49Ms. Travnicek: The preferred alternative incorporates hydrology, responsive operations with conservative management and transition to recovery measures when hydrology improves. This approach preserves space for incorporating consensus recommendations and over the past month we have solicited integrated feedback from partners on the 2728 operational guidelines and based on that the department provided adjustments for continued adjustments regarding 2728 operations.
▶ 1:42:18Ms. Travnicek: The final eis will be published this summer with an adopted decision thereafter to protect the colorado river system consistent with a century long body of laws and recommendations for governance with a recognition of the real impact on water users throughout the basin and we will continue to gather feedback and identify ways to address them. The effective management of the colorado river requires collaboration to confront the real and worsening water shortage while this -- respecting establish water rights.
▶ 1:42:49Ms. Travnicek: Over five years they've received 9 billion in supplemental spending, including hundreds of billions the administration recently approved support conservation to support the seven state consensus and in addition to the annual appropriations the basis receives. Ultimately if consensus is not reached, independent operating authorities will be retained through various acts in supreme court degrees, including the established watermaster role.
▶ 1:43:17Ms. Travnicek: The trump administration remains committed to the basin and will continue working closely with states and tribes to address the critical challenges facing the 40 million who depend on the system. Thank you for this opportunity to testify. We are looking forward to the discussion, thank you for having us.
▶ 1:43:32Chair Lee: Thank you so much. Next we will hear from Mr. palumbo, deputy at the bureau of reclamation. Go ahead.
▶ 1:43:43Mr. Palumbo: Chairman --
▶ 1:43:50Chair Lee: I was mistaken in that regard. All right, so -- thank you so much to both of you for being here. Sorry for the redundant recognition, there. Now, I want to come I want to know, is there any way that you can tell us, starting with you, assistant secretary trap neck, tell us what this means. These are abnormal numbers.
▶ 1:44:23Chair Lee: We are in a significant drought. And in the meantime we have got difficulty having agreement among these states. The colorado river basin is subject to a 1922 interstate compact that made some assumptions about water flows. Tell us how current realities depart from those expectations established in 1922.
▶ 1:44:51Ms. Travnicek: Thank you for the question. Looking at the basin today, looking at the situation we are in, we know we've got the 1922 compact, the various acts that are in place to guide what everyone is trying to make decisions on and you are exactly right. The reality is you have hydrology that has changed since then. Right now that's why you had folks coming together for the drought contingency planning as early as 2019 with the changes that had to take place in 2007.
▶ 1:45:22Ms. Travnicek: That led to here with the modeling looking at forecasts. Now the reality is here, that's what hydrology tells us. That's where it is extremely important to make some sound decisions and get to consensus so that we don't have to get in front of litigation.
▶ 1:45:41Chair Lee: There have been some wish lists submitted to the states by the department for various projects to try to deal with this. While I am sure that this is just a wish list, in some respects, it ends up topping $50 billion. I want you to help us sort of square that with reality. How much those the department have left currently to fund these projects?
▶ 1:46:08Ms. Travnicek: As I mentioned in my testimony we have received 9 billion in the last five years. In working with secretary burnham, we were looking to have the governors and representatives work together so that we could start to understand what are some of the other opportunities in the basin in the future. Looking at what our short-term progress opportunities and longer-term progress opportunities are. But we still have yet to go through and refine that a bit more.
▶ 1:46:38Ms. Travnicek: I would say that that list is in the very early stages. As we look at the dollars that are left, we recently put out 450 $4 million for funding to help with conservation off the bat, knowing that we need to work to prop up lake mead some more, giving opportunities for conservation as well, also looking at where you put out 154, 100 50 million, than another 140 million related to drought. Close to 700 million within the last month.
▶ 1:47:09Ms. Travnicek: In terms of looking ahead, we are not here looking to ask about anything at this point. We want to see what they longer-term strategy is in what the infrastructure projects are wing forward.
▶ 1:47:23Chair Lee: To what degree does it make sense to discuss federal funding when states have yet to reach for, as far as I can tell, come close to reaching a consensus on the post 2026 operating guidelines and, in fact, some states appear to be focused far more on threatening and preparing for litigation, perhaps to the exclusion or resulting in the neglect of their negotiating posture.
▶ 1:47:52Ms. Travnicek: I think that's why we have to be thoughtful moving forward and on the responsibility of our partners moving forward with funding as well. It cannot solely be the federal government's responsibility. Mother nature is here and is showing us where the water is and is not and we will have to work together.
▶ 1:48:11Chair Lee: Right. Releases from flaming gorge, to hague -- helped lake powell's organization so that we don't dip below the minimum power pool, which would have all kinds of spillover consequences, those have begun. The fees are expected to total anywhere from 600,000, 660,000 acres to perhaps a maximum of a one million acre-feet.
▶ 1:48:41Chair Lee: Will the department commit to restoring the water released from flaming gorge and other upstream reservoirs, consulting and coordinating with the upper basin states with respect to these actions?
▶ 1:48:56Ms. Travnicek: I think that what you are seeing now in respect to using those in those scenarios shows how thoughtful the system was set up previously, right? Lake mead, lake powell, the larger reservoirs with these other storage areas that can be utilized in these types of situations. Recovery will be extremely important. We want to make sure we get recovery back to flaming gorge.
▶ 1:49:22Ms. Travnicek: We know how important that is to the system, we don't want to just continue to use it down to the mud. It's one of those toolbox tools that can be used in a situation like this, but it isn't something that should be regularly used at any time. We want to make sure recovery is a priority.
▶ 1:49:38Chair Lee: One follow-up question, tell me more about what you mean when you talk about considering actual hydrology and basic conditions before initiating recovering actions? Tell me a bit about that.
▶ 1:49:56Ms. Travnicek: This is the reality where instead of the modeling, you will have to look at the real conditions. Do real conditions show that we can recover it or not?
▶ 1:50:06Chair Lee: In other words, because we are so close to the margins on everything, we cannot just rely on projections. Margins are so close, if you stick with those without looking at one day to the next we could wind up below the minimum power pool or worse.
▶ 1:50:21Ms. Travnicek: Exactly.
▶ 1:50:23Chair Lee: Senator heinrich?
▶ 1:50:27Sen. Heinrich: Assistant secretary travnicek, I understand that the bureau has developed a preferred preliminary alternative for post 2026 operations that, as I understand it, has been shared with the basin states, but not with the public or congress yet. Can you walk us through what some of those major components of the alternative are and how it is going to fit into the broader strategy for long-term management?
▶ 1:50:57Ms. Travnicek: Thank you for the question. Looking at what's been provided to the basin states and tribal nations, and we have walk through it broadly, although not directly with you at this point. What we are looking at is a 10 year framework that lays out various bookends as it relates to the shortage guidelines, like what we need to see within that lower basin. Giving that framework.
▶ 1:51:28Ms. Travnicek: We are doing the coordinated reservoir operations, what do they look like? Lake powell, that 6 million acres. We know that we are going to need.
▶ 1:51:38Sen. Heinrich: Asking you about that right -- real quick, it seems like lake powell, the way the infrastructure was designed, is now the sink -- the thing defining the actions taken across the system. The drawdown on the gorge, obviously there are limitations in terms of the way that water can move through glen canyon that can lead to cavitation and other challenges causing us to manage for that reservoir.
▶ 1:52:12Sen. Heinrich: Do we need to look at the infrastructure there and consider alternative infrastructure?
▶ 1:52:20Ms. Travnicek: Thank you for that follow-up question. I think there have been false narratives as it relates to the infrastructure. You can use some of those river outlets, they have been tested and will be used. However as we try to make sure we are managing water responsibly in the basin, I don't know why we would want to continue to draw it down when we have other opportunities. So, at this point I don't think you need to put the extra dollars into that.
▶ 1:52:50Ms. Travnicek: I think we need to figure out how to manage the response together first. If I could go back just to the other pieces of the alternative? The coordinated reservoir operations, we need arrange for lake powell, like you mentioned. Anywhere from 5 million acre-feet to 12 million acre-feet. If we suddenly get my work, we have to go shorter. If we suddenly get some rain, some snow, having the opportunity to go higher as well. Also looking at more opportunities for the ics.
▶ 1:53:23Ms. Travnicek: What is some of the other storage, like in lake powell, the 3 million acre-feet, lake mead, 3 million acre-feet. We know that ics has been extremely helpful in propping up lake mead because of what's been done down in the lower basin, raising 75 feet.
▶ 1:53:42Ms. Travnicek: Also having the opportunity to add more ics in the system, with discussions of a tribal water pool as well, making sure that we are meeting the firming responsibilities that we have and the opportunity for potential offsets to help the system as a whole and finally looking at the upper units for the records of the decisions that already exist. Those are the various tools in the tool back -- toolbox.
▶ 1:54:09Ms. Travnicek: And knowing that we are in such a critical situation right now, that is what we are looking at when we have a two-year operation plan. We also cannot get folks to consensus because, right, we are at extreme right now. We are really trying to be thoughtful of where we are at with the elevation, with the tools are in the toolbox that we should be looking at, when do we make decisions, when to be use those tools. That's what's being discussed for 27 and 28 and that's a lot of the dialogue going back and forth right now.
▶ 1:54:39Sen. Heinrich: When are you able to share the details with the congress of what you just walk us through?
▶ 1:54:45Ms. Travnicek: I would be glad to get them over to you.
▶ 1:54:48Sen. Heinrich: Great. Talk to me a little bit in your remaining time about how the department is incorporating watershed restoration, forest health, productivity side of the equation, as you are looking at the overall water management basin.
▶ 1:55:06Ms. Travnicek: Wildfire health, ecosystem health, all extremely important to the basin. That's where you have seen, right, not only over the last several years at soon coming to, the importance of putting funding towards it, working collaboratively on that. We know what the impacts of wildfire might do to our reservoirs. So, making sure we are having those discussions, figuring out what the projects might look like on the ground would be important moving forward.
▶ 1:55:37Ms. Travnicek: At the same time, looking for the opportunities on the hard infrastructure. It will take that holistic approach.
▶ 1:55:43Sen. Heinrich: Senator cortez masto?
▶ 1:55:52Senator Cortez Masto: Thank you to your whole team, you've done an incredible job working with the basin states trying to negotiate this. It's a tough issue we are dealing with right now. One of the things I want to talk about, a lot of the work you've done has been driven by the laws and things we've asked here in the senate. One of them was the drought response operation agreement. Passed in the senate. It took into consideration but we are dealing with right now, the drought and what happens.
▶ 1:56:20Senator Cortez Masto: Under that agreement it stipulated a process for releases from flaming gorge and blue mesa to lake powell. Two a facility that would no longer produce hydropower. Does the department need the consent of any upper basin state to operate the upper initial units within their respective records of decision?
▶ 1:56:46Ms. Travnicek: Thank you for the question. I know a lot of negotiations went that process that came out during the dce, it's been helpful to have that collaboration across and recognizing we need to include the lower basin states as well and in looking forward, how do we do that coordination we think
▶ 1:57:19Ms. Travnicek: It has the authority to move forward if we can't get to consensus.
▶ 1:57:25Sen. Cortez Masto: In 2023, federally recognized tribes had rights beyond was recognized in the treaty. Relevant especially because my colleague, senator kelly, introducing that 2025 legislation and I appreciate the work of the senate committee on indian affairs that I sit on, along with chair murkowski and vice chair shots, for actually
▶ 1:57:56Sen. Cortez Masto: Holding hearings on the bill. At the hearing, the acting commissioner, cameron, confirmed that interior supports this piece of legislation. Can you explain how the bill would benefit the entire basin?
▶ 1:58:11Ms. Travnicek: Thank you for the question. These are extremely important, they allow for certainty and sovereignty, which is where the department is focused on trying to get where we need to go on this settlement agreement. Looking at the basin, settlement, and I believe the deputy commissioner was just recently on some conversations and probably has a latest and greatest on the details on where we are at with that, but yes it would help as a whole.
▶ 1:58:41Sen. Cortez Masto: And you have been asked a number of questions multiple times in meetings with senators and write here about the dollars allocated by congress, right? The 9 billion, some of it coming from the infrastructure bill and some from the inflation reduction act. I think a critical piece for that legislation and why I supported it was we need to recognize that we are in a moment of drought that isn't going to stop, so we have to figure out how to supplement the water on the colorado river.
▶ 1:59:12Sen. Cortez Masto: The dollars were to help us supplement and what I mean by that is engaging in conservation , water recycling, smart water programs, all the things we should be thinking about as a whole in every state. Not just the lower basin state. Every state should be participating. In nevada, we took up the grass. We limited fountains. We are really doing a job. We recycle almost 100% of our water, our great water.
▶ 1:59:42Sen. Cortez Masto: Let me ask you, to the extent that you have -- and I think there is almost one billion left unobligated. Maybe it's more or maybe you can talk a bit about that, how can we help you help the basin states understand there is money available for this conservation, for this water recycling? >> thank you for the question, this does allow us to give more clarity. There's been a narrative out there that there are $1 billion left, and there aren't.
▶ 2:00:10Sen. Cortez Masto: You've seen this rollout, 700 million. We are getting down to less than 100 million left. Actually a lot of those are on the projects that we have been working, not only with this basin but others as well. As it relates to the others, 240 million are left. Same type of thing, lots of discussions related to that. As far as those dollars, the goal is to get the ira dollars by the 30th done.
▶ 2:00:39Sen. Cortez Masto: The goal is that we will get those out. Continuing to work towards a 240 that are left. That's where looking at this list that has been pulled forward and start to get us looking strategically across the seven states. That is where just trying to figure out where we want to move forward on that. But you are exactly right. It's going to take everything.
▶ 2:01:06Sen. Cortez Masto: Augmentation, reuse, desalinization, storage, improved conveyance. All the pieces we will have to look at strategically.
▶ 2:01:14Sen. Cortez Masto: I know that my time is running out, but it's happening right now in carlsbad and I'm going to be going to visit that plant. Again, I think that part of the focus for us, here, is not just demanding what are you going to do and why are you doing these releases. We been part of that process all along. Most importantly, what do you need from us in dollars to help supplement the water on the colorado river with these projects?
▶ 2:01:42Sen. Cortez Masto: I think that will be important and I hope that we hear from you as well about the money that is being allocated being used for that process. If more is needed or if we can play a role in that process. I hope that you would let us know. Thank you again for all the work, it's not easy and I appreciate it.
▶ 2:02:02Chair Lee: Senator hickenlooper?
▶ 2:02:07Senator Hickenlooper: Thank you, Mr. share. Secretary travnicek, we all, upper basin and lower basin, have all agreed that a negotiated settlement is better than litigation. Been saying this for years. To date, the negotiation has still not gilded results. Deadlines get pushed back and pushed back. Most recently, we had ideas exchanged through proposals in the lower basin and the upper basin.
▶ 2:02:40Senator Hickenlooper: Even the time frames were communicated on clearly. As deadlines repeatedly slipped, it felt like the process itself really hasn't been helpful in terms of getting to resolution. What can we do to ensure that -- let's call this the final stretch, we are out of time, what can we do to make sure that you are able to make, to make sure that the right conditions are there to get a, to get a
▶ 2:03:10Senator Hickenlooper: Deal, to land a satisfactory deal?
▶ 2:03:13Ms. Travnicek: Thank you for the question, but I respectfully disagree, I think the process still has been helpful, right? It allows for the opportunity to continue to build relationships, continue to listen to ideas. Opportunities to maybe listen to ideas outside the vox. Innovation. I think that working to remain, to stay at the table, is extremely important. That's forward to where we are right now, everyone knows that october 1 is here.
▶ 2:03:45Ms. Travnicek: We need to get the environmental compliance document out the door, and that's where we are working hard with upper basin, lower basin, tribes, mexico, and the consensus of having everyone still have a voice, but knowing that if they cannot move their stakes to get closer, we are going to have to make a decision in the federal government is prepared to do that.
▶ 2:04:07Sen. Hickenlooper: Ok. I take that optimism and I will take it to heart. I also want to thank you for the money for the shoshone permanency project. That's a big deal in colorado. Still, $50 million in those bucket projects remain unfunded. You touched on this a little bit with the lower basin.
▶ 2:04:34Sen. Hickenlooper: We are fully aware that the lower basin's over $2 billion in investment so far has gotten sometimes shorter-term payouts. Our calculations are the upper basin has received something like 200 billion. So, how come, why aren't of the investments being made in the upper basin, where in some places we really could build systemwide resilience?
▶ 2:05:03Sen. Hickenlooper: Governors of all states have pointed out the need for future funding to support this basin wide framework as we develop it. Stakeholders have called for as much as 2 billion in near-term investments. Do you think that there is a way we could get more equity in future investments between upper and lower?
▶ 2:05:25Ms. Travnicek: Appreciate the question. As you look at where to infuse dollars quickly, and looks at the opportunities to prop up lake mead. Looking at conservation, looking at the ics opportunities that have been able to prop up those 75 feet where the water existed, looking at the upper basin, right, we have consistently heard in the meetings we had with them that they are not able to find the significant amount of conservation, right?
▶ 2:05:55Ms. Travnicek: They stated there is already a shortage up there in that they may not be able to do or make sure that they can keep talking about the voluntary. Which is great, but is there water there that will help the system right away? I know that there has been, right, I know that there's recently been passage on but the conservation program might look like. Utah as well.
▶ 2:06:19Ms. Travnicek: As that continues to get those programs in place, as they continue to identify where those conservation opportunities are, that is where you will see that there might be more of that opportunity into the future as we have those holistic discussions, looking at short-term and long-term.
▶ 2:06:41Sen. Hickenlooper: All right. Quickly, we've alluded to it, how significant tribes are in the basin, how important the water is to them. They hold water rights in the basin. What's the consultation plan?
▶ 2:07:05Ms. Travnicek: Thank you for the question. Consultation is extremely fun. The department of reclamation has been working on this since day one within the basin. So, years. This administration takes it very seriously, having secretary burnham having been a governor, how important the priority was in working with the tribes, making sure it remains consistent as he sits in his role as secretary.
▶ 2:07:32Ms. Travnicek: I think that working with the tribes, getting the thoughtful ideas, that's where the tribal pool came from. Looking at, yeah, is that the indian water rights settlement, some of the other infrastructure being done with other tribes, are there opportunities for exchanges and maximizing working with other partners to utilize the water? No, they are very important to the basin and a part of the solution moving forward.
▶ 2:07:56Sen. Hickenlooper: Thank. I yield back to the chair.
▶ 2:08:02Chair Lee: Thank you very much. We go now to senator padilla.
▶ 2:08:08Senator Padilla: Thank you, Mr. chairman. I begin by talking about lake mead. Urgently preparing for the shortage is like the ones we are experiencing right now. California water raters thanked with a 1.6 acre million feet of water, lake mead. I see you bought -- nodding.
▶ 2:08:31Senator Padilla: This was done to intentionally create a surplus that resulted in significant conservation investments and voluntary reductions over the past 15 years. Didn't happen overnight. 15 years of commitment. That ability to access the resource down to elevation 1000 in lake mead is a must-have provision for california to create any colorado river proposal. You heard it from the negotiators, it's on the table. I need to reinforce it here today.
▶ 2:09:00Senator Padilla: I've used strong words like must-have, because this intentionally created a surplus of water and is essential for the 20 million californians who rely on the colorado river. That's just for a benchmark. 20 million californians with six other states, population combined, 23 million. So, it's nearly half.
▶ 2:09:28Senator Padilla: Assistant secretary, is the department willing to work with california on provisions that ensure access to this intentionally created storage water banked in lake mead after 2026, when it will be needed for municipal and industrial water supply?
▶ 2:09:43Ms. Travnicek: Thank you for the question and I definitely agree with you about how important ics has been to the system. That 75 feet has been able to prop up lake mead and otherwise we would be in a different situation right now. Looking for the opportunities to be able to continue to utilize that and potentially have more, that's something the department is also in favor of.
▶ 2:10:07Ms. Travnicek: Looking at what the requests are that we have in front of us as we look at the 10 year framework into your operation, yeah, it's about how it can be accessed. That is where we want to make sure, again, not just going by modeling, what does real hydrology tell us in the basement -- basin? What does it do to the system as a whole?
▶ 2:10:31Ms. Travnicek: We have also said yes, we are willing to have a look and see what that looks like, but we also want to make sure that there is a consultation opportunity for the secretary to engage as well so that he really understands what's being asked and what the emergencies are that are being pointed to about why he would need that and we really do appreciate them and what they have said and are willing to do for the next two years, because they could be taking more out of the ics and they came to us and said they
▶ 2:11:02Ms. Travnicek: Don't want to, they just want the opportunity to access it if needed in an emergency. >> exactly, negotiating in good faith, to be fair without being punished for good behavior. Good behavior should be rewarded. In my time remaining, I'd like to come back to the topic of funding. I know you've heard from senator hickenlooper and others.
▶ 2:11:27Ms. Travnicek: I would appreciate the reclamation intention to reuse remaining ira dollars and other parts of funding to enable additional drought response activities across the colorado river basin over the next few years. You mentioned less than 100 million in ira with reference to 202 -- 240 billion announced.
▶ 2:11:51Ms. Travnicek: Two part question, number one, can we get a list of projects that have recently been funded or are on the verge of seeing their funded audited? That would be helpful, not just for california, but for all the states. Second, can you suggest right here if reclamation defense uses exclusively on reclamation projects lake and lake mead and lake powell?
▶ 2:12:20Ms. Travnicek: Or other reclamation reservoirs where there are other types of projects in the mix?
▶ 2:12:29Ms. Travnicek: Senator, we can get you that list. Looking ahead, the remaining dollars, like I mentioned, the colorado river basin remains extremely important, but we have others across the west dealing the drought. As we are looking at the rest of those dollars, the iga ones are tied to various programs limiting where the dollars can go.
▶ 2:12:55Ms. Travnicek: We remain thoughtful in looking at the colorado river basin, but also the others.
▶ 2:13:03Sen. Padilla: Closing question, I know that some of these funds are due at the end of the current crystal year. We are talking 100 some odd days until september 30. Whatever we can do to help move projects along for that funding, if that funding is in jeopardy, please let us know.
▶ 2:13:25Ms. Travnicek: Appreciate that.
▶ 2:13:27Chair Lee: Senator gallego?
▶ 2:13:32Senator Gallego: The future of the colorado river remains uncertain and the water remains horrible. We share a need for creative solutions and certainty for our water future. Like Dr.
▶ 2:13:49Senator Gallego: Travnicek said, you must find ways to mitigate supply uncertainty into that end, lower basin states like arizona submitted a for near-term operations along with significant commitments from lower base or users. Some grateful hope to see the plan adapted.
▶ 2:14:15Senator Gallego: I appreciate my colleagues question regarding the indian men -- the native american power rights but the sentiment is a fair resolution for tribes that have had a lack in water can have what they deserve. My question, Dr., the colorado river is a lifeline for arizona and fuels the most advanced manufacturing in the western hemisphere right now. Apart from glen canyon, how do they keep the lights on across the southwest.
▶ 2:14:49Senator Gallego: These are key priorities for the U.S., including the presidential agenda. As you consider the alternatives, how are you weighing this administration's priorities?
▶ 2:14:59Ms. Travnicek: Senator, thank you for the question. To just circle back, yes, we appreciate what the lower basin has provided before us as they reach consensus, and I think as stated previously, we've had a lot of back and forth related to it, knowing that we're not able to accept that on its face value. Looking at what the level of risk is, we also appreciate what the upper basin has sent, too, as their thoughts and ideas.
▶ 2:15:22Ms. Travnicek: Knowing that, yes, you have a lot of economic development, it's great the amount of opportunities down there in arizona with the different economies and agriculture, so of course as we're looking into the future, as how the colorado river will be managed, the colorado river will continue to be managed based on the laws, based on the water rights that are in place. So I think that's why your lower consensus, what it looks like on how they can work to share the water will be extremely important.
▶ 2:15:53Sen. Gallego: Have you coordinated with other members in the decision making process?
▶ 2:15:58Ms. Travnicek: Senator, our water sub cabinet is together. We actually have a meeting tomorrow, where that brings together all those other departments. So yes, we are doing that cross collaboration, trying to see where opportunities are, because we know those departments are seeing some of the same concerns, and is there a way for us to maximize the different authorities that we each have.
▶ 2:16:20Sen. Gallego: The reason I'm asking is because clearly, yes, we have water laws, have water settlements, but those remain a long time ago, and the world has changed. Hydrology has changed. The demands of the country have changed. Demands what the president wants to see coming forward are definitely going to be met more by lower basin resources. I hope there will be some alignment I think in the president's goals, as well as the potential outcome what the reclamation wants to do.
▶ 2:16:52Sen. Gallego: As you think, there are ways to do more with less and have for quite a while. This benefits the whole country. It would be a mistake not to do that at the end while making decisions. As much as we can also hope for it, the basin cannot wait for perfect consensus, and what we need to understand today is how the department will act to stabilize the system and pool our resources at the scale and speed this moment demands.
▶ 2:17:15Sen. Gallego: How will the department incorporate the lower basin proposal as it prepares to exercise authorities to prevent the system from reaching critical elevations at powell and lake mead? And when will the plans be made public?
▶ 2:17:30Ms. Travnicek: Yes, that's where I mentioned we continue to work with the lower basin, what they have submitted to us, where we have concerns and where we think there should be adjustments. Because again, we don't have a lower basin. We have an upper basin as well. So that's where we will continue to have to work with everybody. Seven basin states, tribes, and also with mexico. And also recognizing the impacts. We also get phone calls from land owners, from ranchers, and all the different impacts. So again, any and all ideas, we're welcoming it.
▶ 2:17:59Ms. Travnicek: Fast forward to, yes, we know that we need to make a decision. We are working towards to trying to see if we can get to the consensus. The tools in the toolbox remain what we have, so funding, that's where the funding has gone out the door, trying to still get to that seven-basin state consensus. And then recognizing whether those tools in the toolbox, so we be doing more conservation in the upper basin?
▶ 2:18:26Ms. Travnicek: We still have to use the tools we have, looking up, looking at what the releases are out of lake powell, and then the tribal pooches it's going to be all those things, but we are on a tight timeline. The goal is still to get the environmental document out the door end of july, the record decision shortly thereafter, and then have operating agreement in place, ready to go, october 1. And there's going to be some decisions made related to that in august.
▶ 2:18:52Sen. Gallego: I yield back.
▶ 2:19:01Chair Lee: I want to thank the assistant secretary and Mr. palumbo for their testimony. That concludes this panel. We'll now invite the second panel to come to the table.
▶ 2:20:24Chair Lee: All right, good to have the second panel here today. Let me just briefly introduce the second panel before we hear from you. We'll begin with Ms. haas. Ms. haas serves as the executive director of the colorado river authority of utah, a role that she has held for about five years since 2021.
▶ 2:20:45Chair Lee: Previously she served as executive director and secretary of the upper colorado river commission from 2017 to 2021, becoming the first woman to hold the position in the organization's 73-year history. She's also a former upper colorado river commissioner for the state of new mexico, and former acting director new mexico interstate streaming commission.
▶ 2:21:15Chair Lee: Let's hear from you, and then I'll introduce the other witnesses as they begin. Go ahead, Ms. haas.
▶ 2:21:21Ms. Haas: Thank you, chairman lee. Ranking member heinrich and members of the committee, thank you for the opportunity to hear my testimony today. My name is amy haas. I am the executive director of the colorado river authority of utah, and I have spent almost two decades working on colorado river issues. I have worked across the table from every basin state. I have negotiated directly with mexico.
▶ 2:21:47Ms. Haas: I'm here this morning to tell you that the window to solve this without lawyers, judges, and generational damage to basin relationships is shrinking faster than lake powell. 60% of utah's population depends on water from the colorado river system. The communities along the front, the farms and ranches of eastern and southeastern utah, the tribal nations who have called this river home for centuries, all of them are watching.
▶ 2:22:18Ms. Haas: They are watching and hoping that it's not too late. We cannot afford to get this montgomery, and frankly, neither can anyone else. I say this during one of the worst years on record with the lowest spring inflow into lake powell since the reservoir began filling in the 1960's, and with some of the oldest water rights in utah being naturally curtailed this year.
▶ 2:22:44Ms. Haas: Today I want to share with you what utah is doing, what the federal government should stop doing, and what needs to change. First, utah asks that you fund solutions, not lawsuits. Some states in this basin are preparing to sue their sister states. Some have made a public display over hiring high-dollar law firms. Litigation funds are being set aside.
▶ 2:23:09Ms. Haas: Positions are being taken that, if brought to court, could tie up this river in legal battles for years to come. What does this have to do with congress? You have a choice about whether and what you fund. Utah's position is straightforward. Federal dollars should go toward infrastructure improvements, storage, and conservation. Dollars should go to real, on the ground solutions that move the needle on supply, not to enrich lawyers.
▶ 2:23:38Ms. Haas: Compact litigation on the colorado river will be unprecedented, involve all seven states, and will be orders of magnitude larger than any interstate water case ever brought. It will potentially take multiple decades to resolve. Utah is calling for a legal detente now before the first briefs are filed, before positions harden that make compromise impossible. We urge congress to send a clear signal.
▶ 2:24:08Ms. Haas: States that choose courtrooms over cooperation should not expect washington to bank roll it. States that sue other states should not be rewarded. Second, we ask that the upper division states be given credit for water we contribute. Utah is doing the hard work. In 2025, we launched a program using state dollars to pay farmers to voluntarily forgo irrigation, tracking every acre as it moves down stream to lake powell, and building the framework and infrastructure to account for that conservation.
▶ 2:24:40Ms. Haas: To those that contend that utah and the other upper states are unwilling to put anything on the table, that is simply untrue. I'm here today to say that utah is willing to secure commitments to secure up to 23,000 acre-feet in 2027 and 2028 through our state conservation program. Will we get 23,000 acre-feet? That depends on federal support in the form of dollars dedicated to conservation in&recognition for our contributions.
▶ 2:25:11Ms. Haas: It will also depend on mother nature. Third, upstream releases will not save the system. The bureau of reclamation is taking unprecedented measures to protect lake powell from falling below critical elevations, as the assistant secretary mentioned. To do that, reclamation is relying in part on releases from the reservoir in utah and wyoming. The good morning will not save the system. It is good for one, maybe two major releases.
▶ 2:25:41Ms. Haas: Reclamation is currently drawing that reservoir down by more than a third of its capacity over the next year to rescue powell. We are proposing that releases from other facilities upstream are capped, fully recovered, and effective in protecting glen canyon dam, not simply used to increase down stream releases. This prevents the reservoir from being treated as an unlimited emergency backstop every time powell drops and guarantees a supply for future use. And finally, I'll end with this.
▶ 2:26:12Ms. Haas: Utah is still at the table, and we call on others to join us. We cautiously supported the release of water from flaming george to protect powell. We funded these from our own state budget. We showed up to every negotiation willing to deal, and we still want to strike a seven-state agreement. We ask that congress fund the solutions and defund the fights. Thank you for the opportunity to testify today, and I welcome your questions.
▶ 2:26:41Chair Lee: Thanks so much. Appreciate your remarks and your insights and all the other work you do for our state. Next I'll be introducing Mr. vickrey. He was going to be introduced by senator barrasso, but he's been unavoidably detained. He was summoned to a meet ago cross town. I'm not going to tell you where he is, but he's in a white building. That building serves a dual purpose.
▶ 2:27:09Chair Lee: It is at once a residence and also a public meeting, and it has an office in it that is sort of oval shaped. I'm not going to tell you any more than that, but it's an important meeting. So I will deliver the introduction that he left for us as he knows Mr. vickrey. Mike vickrey is a fifth-generation rancher from pinedale, wyoming.
▶ 2:27:35Chair Lee: He's a member of the green river valley cattleman's executive committee, and he also conserves on the governor's colorado river advisory committee for wyoming. He runs an operation with his parents, his daughter, and his son-in-law. They operate on sagebrush pastures and irrigated hayfields west of the mountains, the chief triber to of the colorado river is the green river basin.
▶ 2:28:06Chair Lee: It begins in the wind river range of wyoming. Their ranch is at the head waters of the green river in the county. The ranch supports numerous wildlife and blue ribbon fisheries. I'm excited to welcome him here this morning to hear about his perspective as someone who was actively engaged in agriculture from wyoming. Thanks for joining us today. Mr. vickrey, you're now recognized for your opening statement.
▶ 2:28:33Mr. Vickrey: Thank you. I'm a fifth-generation rancher from the head waters of the green river in wyoming. In the late 1800's, ranchers started developing irrigation in our area. With irrigation came the ability to produce harvestable feed to make our ranches sustainable year round. We've been able to grow mostly grass hay in an environment to give us growing season of, get this, 45 to 60 days.
▶ 2:29:01Mr. Vickrey: Animal agriculture is the backbone of every community in my part of wyoming and along the colorado river system. It is the stability and foundation in an ever-changing demographic of our western way of life. Decades of flood irrigation in the upper basin have allowed our ranches to produce some of the country's best source of protein on ground and in climate, not suitable for production of other crops.
▶ 2:29:28Mr. Vickrey: With the ability to flood irrigate large areas of land came other benefits not considered in the 1800's. Large heads of elk, deer, and antelope now use the same areas that were created and sustained by our industry. Streams that once dried up midsummer are now able to withstand drought and continue to run year round.
▶ 2:29:52Mr. Vickrey: In turn, the fishing and tourism that goes along with these fisheries has become a boone to the economic base of our small community. While our water in the upper and lower basin is shared water, the best management of each area is vastly different. In the upper basin, we have relatively small lakes with only a few that have structured capable of water.
▶ 2:30:17Mr. Vickrey: The main stem of the green river on our ranch has no dam on it and is a free river through the county. I've heard the lower basin talk about the need to have some security in the allotment of water they expect to get over time. They have, in fact, experienced that security for many years because of lake mead and lake powell. Those of us in the upper basin don't have that luxury.
▶ 2:30:43Mr. Vickrey: Each year our expectations of how much water we'll have to irrigate with are based on mother nature. We wait each winter in hopes of getting enough snowfall to sustain us for the next summer. No certainty, no promises, just hope weather patterns will take care of it. When the water is short in wyoming, mandatory regulation goes into effect. Mandatory by state law and mandatory by the environment.
▶ 2:31:14Mr. Vickrey: Flood irrigation once seen as a waste of water does something that state and federal governments cannot do, some 275,000 acres in the upper green are flood irrigated, as we fill up the ground like a large fund, we help to replenish and build a huge reservoir underneath the surface. Little cost to build, little to maintain, and very little government intervention.
▶ 2:31:40Mr. Vickrey: It's store in addition cool, dark environment with little loss through evaporation. One study on the new port near pinedale suggested that as much as 70% of the water applied to the ground returned to the river somewhere down stream. Other studies of different drainages have shown similar but still significant return flows of 25% to 40%.
▶ 2:32:05Mr. Vickrey: Because of geography and climate, our portion of our water right is used with use to grow crops, a portion is used for beneficial use to maintain those areas for live stock, wildlife, and fisheries. Water not used by the plants becomes part of the underground storage, then comes back to the river system. It then goes downhill to our lower basin neighbors.
▶ 2:32:33Mr. Vickrey: I often hear the lower basin talk about the amount of salad they produce to feed the nation. I've heard that today. I applaud that fact. Here in the upper basin on ground not suitable for other crops, we're able to produce enough protein in the form of beef and lamb in the county and the surrounding area to feed our share of the country. In our part of wyoming alone, in that small southwest corner, we produce enough beef to feed 1.3 million people each year.
▶ 2:33:04Mr. Vickrey: The question comes from the lower basin, what are you doing for conservation? All upper basin states have participated in system conservation pilot programs. For example, in wyoming, 64 projects in 2023 conserved about 38,000 acre-feet of water. In 2024, 110 projects were funded with an estimated conserve scamp active use of 63,000 acre-feet. We will participate.
▶ 2:33:35Mr. Vickrey: We in the upper basin know all too well that hydrology makes for tough decisions. We do with that on a yearly basis. In order to survive, we must adapt. Our insurance policy for water is a term policy. It runs year to year with no guarantees for the future. The lower basin, however, has had the luxury of a long-term policy, thanks to storage from lake mead and lake powell.
▶ 2:34:02Mr. Vickrey: They are now looking at further upstream units for more protection. The only way forward is a shared pain as hydrology worsens. From my perspective, a supply-driven model of the river is imperative, as conditions continue to change, we must adapt to the actual amount of available water and continue to search for new sources of usable water. Thank you, Mr. lee.
▶ 2:34:30Chair Lee: Thanks so much. We'll hear next from Mr. tom kiernan, the president and c.e.o. Of american rivers. This is a role that he's held since 2021. He's also a former c.e.o. Of the american wind energy association, president of the national parks conservation association, and president of the audubon society of new hampshire. You may proceed with your opening statement.
▶ 2:34:55Mr. Kiernan: Thank you very much, chairman lee and ranking member heinrich, and other members of the committee. Thank you very much for the opportunity to testify on the colorado river basin. As the chairman said, I'm currently president and c.e.o. Of american rivers, and yes, served in similar roles with other energy and conservation organizations, and also, by the way, served as an senior official with president herbert walker bush in his environmental protection agency.
▶ 2:35:20Mr. Kiernan: American rivers, as you mentioned, is a national conservation organization working to ensure that every river is clean and healthy for people and for wildlife. For more than 50 years, our staff and partners have moved forward with the common belief that life depends on rivers. To ensure a future for the colorado river in the face of the current crisis, both congress and the administration must act quickly and boldly.
▶ 2:35:53Mr. Kiernan: American rivers urges this congress four things to do. First, encourage the bureau of reclamation to finalize durable operating guidelines grounded in the hydrology reality of the basin. Second, affirm the importance of the voluntary transactions, the flexible management, and conservation programs that the new framework will depend on.
▶ 2:36:15Mr. Kiernan: Third, authorize and appropriate significant federal investment to bridge the transition to a durable and more resilient future, and fourth, maintain environmental principles and maximize the use of natural infrastructure.
▶ 2:36:32Mr. Kiernan: At the department of interior, as they know well, and the assistant secretary commented, the expiring operating agreements without a path forward will lead the basin into a period of profound economic, environmental, and operational uncertainty that no emergency measures can bridge.
▶ 2:36:54Mr. Kiernan: The path forward must not only avoid near-term system failure, but also reduce the basin's long-term structural deficit, while improving resilience. With this in mind, the american rivers urges the department to ensure that this successor framework they're working on, first recognizes and responds to the colorado river as a single interconnected system with management decisions reflecting the conditions and impacts across the basin.
▶ 2:37:22Mr. Kiernan: Two, that it provides sufficient flexibility to respond to changing hydrology conditions without relying on recurring emergency negotiations. Third, that ensures meaningful tribal participation, so that tribal nations are integral partners in future basin decision making. And fourth, incorporates environmental, ecological needs, not needs as a core component of basin management, but rather a secondary consideration.
▶ 2:37:53Mr. Kiernan: Regarding our recommendation that congress authorize additional funding, both the congress and the department must recognize that colorado river basin cannot transition to a resilient, secure future without significant additional federal investment. Funding is not a temporary solution, it is a bridge to a long-term durable solution.
▶ 2:38:18Mr. Kiernan: Many of the tensions that emerge within the basin stand not only from water scarcity, but also from the uncertainty regarding how communities, agricultural producers will adapt to reduce supplies. Hence, strategic federal investment can help stakeholders move beyond the uncertainty and then create the conditions necessary for a durable agreement. As well, federal funding should not be limited to protecting reservoir elevations alone.
▶ 2:38:49Mr. Kiernan: It should strengthen the natural and built systems that support long-term water security throughout the basin, because that is most cost effective thing to do. Specifically funding the restoration of natural infrastructure doesn't just mitigate the risk against catastrophic wildfire or drought, it makes economic sense. For example, wetlands, floodplains and corridors capture and slowly release snow melt.
▶ 2:39:19Mr. Kiernan: Healthy forests stabilize soils and maintain vegetative cover that prevents erosion and reduces evaporation. Wildfire risk is mitigated by maintaining moisture in the watersheds and existing federal dollars are already at work with great programs like the water smart program.
▶ 2:39:37Mr. Kiernan: In closing, congress has a generational opportunity at the 250th anniversary of this nation to be remembered for saving the colorado river basin, which is the economic and cultural lifeblood of the southwestern united states. Chairman, members of the committee, thank you for the opportunity, and I look forward to questions.
▶ 2:39:59Chair Lee: Thank you so much, Mr. kiernan. Next is Mr. bill hasencamp, the manager of colorado river resources for the metropolitan water district of southern california, where he develops and implements water supply, storage programs it e to manage the colorado river supplies. Mr. hasencamp, you may begin.
▶ 2:40:21Mr. Hasencamp: Thank you, chair lee, ranking member heinrich, members of the committee. Metropolitan is the largest provider of drinking water in the country. We provide water to 19 million people in southern california. We get half of the water from northern california and half from the colorado river. Our supplies from northern california have been marred with litigation, making effective planning difficult.
▶ 2:40:50Mr. Hasencamp: On the other hand, the colorado river has been known for our collaboration consensus and is an example in california of what seven states can do when we all work together. We have an agreement this summer.
▶ 2:41:11Mr. Hasencamp: We stepped up and supported california's contribution of 440,000 acre-feet per year, plus more when needed, as part of a long-term seven-state deal, even though we are the senior priorities state in the lower basin. It was not easy to accept that. But the reason we put that on the table, supported that is because we recognized we needed to compromise.
▶ 2:41:40Mr. Hasencamp: All sectors participate, the cuts to any one state can be smaller. And a seven-state path is the only path to avoid or to minimize the risk of litigation. We don't have a seven-state deal today. As the assistant secretary said, we're moving forward with a short-term deal, but the door should be kept open on a seven-state plan.
▶ 2:42:09Mr. Hasencamp: California has gone through some similar difficult negotiations that I think could provide a road map to help in the seven-state process. Water has been relying on, the states and federal government gave us flexibility in making that reduction, but it came with a deadline to have the agreements done by a date certain.
▶ 2:42:39Mr. Hasencamp: California worked hard to meet that deadline, but we missed it. The federal reaction was swift and harsh. The next day metropolitan's colorado river supplies were cut by 60%, and the department of interior went after an irrigation district over wasting water. With that federal threat over our heads, we continue to negotiate.
▶ 2:43:07Mr. Hasencamp: We brought in a mediator from sacramento and ultimately assigned the necessary agreements that allowed the transfer in california. When those agreements were signed, unfortunately for metropolitan mother nature gave us a flexibility we have relied on, and we quickly had to develop a plan to reduce our use, our 60% cut became permanent. We did three things.
▶ 2:43:36Mr. Hasencamp: One, we ramped up our urban conservation water recycling. It's half of what it was, but we recognize the urban sect tar can't do it alone. We partnered with some of the highest priority agriculture districts in the nation, funding conservation with numerous types of programs and the key with our partners is it's not one size fits all, every agency had a different way of participating with different financial needs
▶ 2:44:13Mr. Hasencamp: Ultimately every tribe in california partnered in conservation to help reduce use. Finally the state of california stepped up with infrastructure funding to line of channels, which provides 100 years of water savings. All this was done without any federal funding. And it allowed us to reduce our use, continue to thrive, and put an extra 10% on the table during these negotiations. We think there are three lessons learned in california that applied to the states today.
▶ 2:44:45Mr. Hasencamp: One is strong federal leadership, perhaps with mediation either by the feds or outside mediation, with meaningful deadlines. Two is creative thoughts of how to come up with programs, conservation programs that it's not a one size fits all, recognizing different states, different agencies have different ways of conserve, not dictating how conservation has to be done, finding out how it can be done that works with each
▶ 2:45:15Mr. Hasencamp: Agency. And then finally, federal funding to provide some longer term savings on infrastructure projects that I think is best served when it's coupled with local funding to make dollars go even farther. Metropolitan looks forward to working with congress on how to implement such a funding plan. Thank you.
▶ 2:45:35Chair Lee: Thanks so much. Appreciate each of your opening statements. We'll now proceed to five-minute rounds of questions in order to seniority. Ms. haas, I'd like to start with you. There are those out there who claimed the upper basin states have refused to put anything on the table. Can you tell the committee why that's wrong and what the state of utah and the upper basin states are offering.
▶ 2:45:58Ms. Haas: Thank you, and I'm happy to dispel that notion. I think it's a fundamental premise, the upper division states have promoted a plan that is focused on actual available supply, rather than a demand-division regime, which is currently what we've experienced since 2007. There are three pillars to the proposal. The first is the operation of lake powell.
▶ 2:46:27Ms. Haas: Operate the reservoir conservatively when actual conditions on a date certain, in this case october 1 dictate, reduce releases out of lake powell, and ratchet those releases up as the reservoir begins to recover, with an opportunity for a true up as it were in the spring, when we can observe the runoff conditions.
▶ 2:46:54Ms. Haas: So again, operating lake powell prudently means operating based on actual conditions and supply. The second pillar is the uses of the upstream. We've heard a lot of testimony about that today, both assistant direct travnicek and I have testified to it. We will continue to support future releases from other upstream reservoirs on three conditions. Number one, that they be capped. There's some limit.
▶ 2:47:23Ms. Haas: The sky isn't the limit, in other words. Secondly, that they be recovered. In our case, we are going to require or demand full recovery, and I think I heard the assistant secretary today commit to recovery of any water release from upstream facilities.
▶ 2:47:40Ms. Haas: The third is they must be effective for their intended purpose, which is to protect elevations at lake powell, not simply to pad or provide extra water for downstream release purposes. The third and final pillar of the upper division state plan is upper division state contributions.
▶ 2:48:00Ms. Haas: Now, the upper division states have committed to conserve 100,000 acre-feet in the first two years of operations of the river post-2026, so that would be 2027 and 2028. Utah is willing to play our part with a commitment of 23,000 acre-feet. So those are essentially the three elements of the upper division state plan.
▶ 2:48:24Ms. Haas: And I'd also like to note that the states have really been outgunned in terms of the messaging. We are not making headlines in terms behalf we put on the table, but that doesn't mean we don't have a plan, which is what I've articulated to you today. Thank you.
▶ 2:48:42Chair Lee: Thank you. That's helpful. Mr. hasencamp, the upper and lower basin states have gone back and forth on a number of proposals over the last few years. Obviously no agreement has been reached yet, and one of the reasons for discussion today, was there anything in the upper basin proposals that you thought the lower basin could negotiate around?
▶ 2:49:08Mr. Hasencamp: I can't speak for the lower base and inmetropolitan, but we did have meetings both with the colorado river board of california and individually with all of the seven states, including the upper basin states. And we found that what amy is describing is something that we think is worth looking into. We were disappointed in 2019 that the upper basin was given storage that they haven't yet filled.
▶ 2:49:37Mr. Hasencamp: But what the upper basin asked was give us a chance, give us bench marks to meet goals and if we meet the goals, then the agreement stays in place. If we don't meet the benchmarks, then you can say we failed. So from our perspective, giving them a chance to meet the benchmarks makes sense.
▶ 2:49:56Mr. Hasencamp: We know that the hardest part is starting, and once we start, just like in california, it was very difficult, but once we started, the next step was much easier.
▶ 2:50:08Chair Lee: Thank you. That's helpful. Mr. vickrey, some of the lower basin compared agricultural production in the lower basin to that in the upper basin, kind of an argument in favor of their desired outcome in these negotiations. Can you explain or describe the economic value that the upper basin, particularly the upper green river basin provides?
▶ 2:50:43Mr. Vickrey: Sure, thank you, senator. Wyoming controls about 14% of the river basin, and I'm not including what little snake river is now, because I don't have their numbers. But again, 1.3 million people are fed with beef raised in our country. Besides that, one of the nice things we had was biproducts in beef, we provided about two million shoes out of that same amount of cattle to the country.
▶ 2:51:13Mr. Vickrey: Multiples of medicine, adversive, everything you do eat and touch as a byproduct of bee- and touch as a byproduct of beea and touch as a byproduct of beet and touch as a byproduct of beef and touch as a byproduct of beef in it somewhere. To put a value on those is probably a little tough, but it's a huge thing from the beef industry. In southwest wyoming near green river, they have a value placed on them contributing to the economy of about $2 billion. I'm representing upper basin agriculture.
▶ 2:51:45Mr. Vickrey: But serving on this committee, I've got a chance to get out a little more and see what else is going on. And that comes with thousands of jobs, paychecks, taxes that go into the state of wyoming, into the federal government. Southwest wyoming, 90% of it comes from our area, and they require some use of water. And their water are junior water rights. So it's going to take some real flexibility to try to keep them up and going.
▶ 2:52:15Mr. Vickrey: This also includes power units that we have in two or three different places. The value on those, we'll figure out the value real quick. So those things are big. And then tourism has become a huge thing in our area. What people come to wyoming for, they used to go through pinedale to get to jackson hole, about 60 miles away. Now they stop in pinedale. And they stop to go fishing and experience the outdoors.
▶ 2:52:43Mr. Vickrey: One of the things people will always tell you, always will tell you, how beautiful it is here with the green meadows, the areas, the wildlife that we've created there. It's all been done through agriculture. I don't think it was meant to be when my great grandparents helped settle that part of the world, but that's what happened. So our small towns thrive on, we're 2,500 people. We have six great big motels in the county. Just to handle the tourists that go back and forth.
▶ 2:53:13Mr. Vickrey: Most of them are there to experience the outdoors and fishing. Just in our area, it's a big thing for sure.
▶ 2:53:23Chair Lee: Senator heinrich?
▶ 2:53:27Sen. Heinrich: Mr. kiernan, water users, tribes, recreationists, agriculture producers, conservation groups don't alza grow on colorado river priorities -- don't always agree on cool river priorities, but I was struck by a letter you sent the chairman that a number of groups sent to the chairman and myself and the chair and ranking member over in the house, just because of how broad
▶ 2:53:58Sen. Heinrich: This is. We get a lot of these letters, as you can imagine, in this committee. We don't usually get the diversity of interest calling on the congress to fund roughly $2 billion a year in additional federal funding to address drought in the basin. I would ask unanimous consent to enter it into the record.
▶ 2:54:19Chair Lee: Without objection.
▶ 2:54:23Sen. Heinrich: How significant is this, and if we're able to produce this kind of funding in the congress, how should we think about how to focus it, how to deal with the tradeoffs, measure the efficiencies, and still recognize that utah's approach to conservation, california's approach to conservation, are going to be different?
▶ 2:54:53Mr. Hasencamp: From cattlemen to conservationists, water utility to ag and everybody in between
▶ 2:54:59Mr. Kiernan: They came together, found common ground, built some trust, and is making to congress a proposal. I think it's setting the stage for a coming-together. The proposal is for near-term drought mitigation of $2 billion. As you well know, everybody has spoken to this theory, deep anxiety, uncertainty, stress in the watershed, $1.4 trillion economy, 40 million people counting on the colorado river.
▶ 2:55:32Mr. Kiernan: That uncertainty is causing some of the challenge in reaching a durable, long-term agreement that everybody says we need. So the $2 billion for near-term drought mitigation is to help bridge across this uncertainty. Everybody is as anxious to be able to meet some of the near-term needs so that we created an environment to create a durable agreement.
▶ 2:55:52Mr. Kiernan: Now, this would go to a suite of activities, whether it's activity force o forest management, forest restoration, floodplain connection, conservation efficiency measures, a breadth of efforts so that we can make some progress towards a more durable, resilient future.
▶ 2:56:15Sen. Heinrich: Historically it's been intuitive for a lot of members the investments in hard infrastructure and plumbing effectively in the basin. But talk a little bit about the importance and role of forest watershed, floodplains in managing the current hydrology that we see.
▶ 2:56:35Mr. Kiernan: First, let me say the built infrastructure obviously extraordinarily important. The natural infrastructure is also extraordinarily important. It is allowing, if you will, nature to work for us, and mike alluded to this, when you've got wetlands or floodplains that are able to -- I want to use a floodplain as an example, adjacent to the low land that is there during higher water, the water spreads out, slows down, sinks in, and is held there and is then released throughout the
▶ 2:57:06Mr. Kiernan: Summer in a very predictable way, so it's a natural storage system. So the natural systems work for us, help us in both retaining that water, releasing it in a measured way over time. They also, by being in the soil and obviously feeding some plant life, reduce just the straight-out evaporation. Some of the water also seeping down into the ground water and comes back up lower in the basin.
▶ 2:57:33Mr. Kiernan: So, again, this natural infrastructure is extraordinarily important tool in the toolbox, if you will. It's allowing nature to work for us. So we would hope that the $2 billion, part of it very much goes to this natural infrastructure that's so important, along with the built infrastructure. But the natural infrastructure is so important throughout the basin.
▶ 2:57:55Sen. Heinrich: I wrote down a few things I heard several times today to try to come up with some principles. We heard about the need for strong federal leadership and a willingness to make tough decisions.
▶ 2:58:09Sen. Heinrich: But for the basin states themselves, shared sacrifice, lived within the actual hydrology of the basin today, and for us here, don't fund litigation, do fund conservation. Try to have some transparency. Is there anything in that list that any of you disagree with? Good start. All right, I want to thank you all.
▶ 2:58:41Sen. Heinrich: >> one of the things I think we need to really recognize is that the upper basin, and even parts of the upper basin are completely different than the lower basin. And they can't be managed the same. And when we try to put on a one-size-fits-all, it is not going to work, and it will crush both systems fairly quickly. So I would encourage you, as we look forward -- and I think andrea has done a great job of pushing that out there. I enjoyed listening to her talk, and she's a strong leader there.
▶ 2:59:12Sen. Heinrich: I really would encourage that.
▶ 2:59:14Sen. Heinrich: Point well taken. I want to thank all of you for your testimony. We really appreciate it.
▶ 2:59:23Chair Lee: I want to thank each of you for your testimony. It's been a great hearing. Your input has been remarkably helpful. We learned a lot today. Senator heinrich and I have to go vote, otherwise they're going to send people after us with big sticks, a little known tradition we have in the senate. Anyway, this will conclude today's hearing. I want to thank my colleagues for their contributions for being here and for their patience. Any senator wishing to submit additional questions for the record may do so.
▶ 2:59:53Chair Lee: The deadline for submitting those questions will be 6:00 p.m. Tomorrow, thursday, june 11. Senators will also have until 6:00 p.m. This next wednesday, june 17, to add additional statements for the record for today's hearing. Thanks again to my colleagues for their participation and for our witnesses for your testimony, for answering our questions today. The hearing stands adjourned.