▶ 0:04:47Chair Graham: I would like to thank everyone for being here today and our nominee, Mr. duncan. Congratulations. Welcome to the committee. I will make a brief opening statement. I thought he was already here? There he is. Magically appears, as he always does. On time and under budget. [laughter] anyway, is it all right to start now? >> I made it.
▶ 0:05:16Chair Graham: You did make it. In louisiana time this is early. Yeah. [laughter] anyway, Mr. duncan was nominated by president trump to be the deputy director of the omb. As previously held by dan bishop, who is now U.S. attorney for them middle district of north carolina. He currently serves at omb, associate director.
▶ 0:05:46Chair Graham: He was delegated the duties of deputy director not long ago. His previous jobs include legislative director for congressman chip roy, working in senator toomey's office, and the national senatorial committee. He understands it all on our side. Hal duncan grew up in texas and graduated from the university of virginia, which is quite a journey. He currently lives in washington, D.C. with his wife amy and son patrick.
▶ 0:06:18Chair Graham: Welcome to them. From my point of view you understand the agency. You have been over there for a while. You are acting in the role that you have been nominated for. I have had a good meeting with you. You are young and enthusiastic and smart, just like everybody on this committee. So, I think you will do very well. [laughter] senator merkley.
▶ 0:06:42Sen. Merkley: Thank you, chairman graham. Thank you, Mr. duncan, for joining us today and I appreciate you dropping by to talk yesterday. Today we consider your nomination to be deputy of omb, a position of immense responsibility. The deputy director serves as the number two, and its chief operating officer, overseeing day-to-day operations as well as helping to manage budget information and regulatory oversight and policy implementation across the executive branch.
▶ 0:07:13Sen. Merkley: That is a vast portfolio. It is a senate-confirmed position since 19 74. Our 22 previous deputy directors have brought experience to the role. I'm concerned your resume is a bit thin, so I look forward to your comments about your experience today.
▶ 0:07:34Sen. Merkley: Less than two years as associate director of the omb director office of legislative affairs, two years as a legislative director of member of the house, and working on the hill for less than two years in the republican senate campaign committee. Over the next year omb is requesting a budget of $179 million. 675 employees, a vast set of personnel and responsibilities in comparison to some of your previous roles.
▶ 0:08:05Sen. Merkley: It is a complex agency with hundreds of employees, highly technical issues, many fields of expertise. Furthermore, in your current role as associate director of the omb office of legislative affairs, omb has essentially stonewalled congress and this committee, not responding to a single letter that I have sent.
▶ 0:08:30Sen. Merkley: Maybe that is only on this side of the aisle and not the other side of the aisle, but that would be a concern as well because really the executive branch needs to work with both sides of the aisle. So, a question I would pose, if as legislative director one of the simplest tasks, which is making sure that letters from congress are responded to come if you have not been able to succeed in that role, why do we feel you're prepared for that
▶ 0:09:01Sen. Merkley: Much more complex role? I look forward to your response to that. Since president trump and russell vought have returned to office, they have repeatedly violated the constitution's separation of power, usurping congress' power to declare war through president trump's war of choice.
▶ 0:09:24Sen. Merkley: Usurping congress' power to tax to the president's tariffs which the supreme court ruled were unconstitutional. Usurping congress' power of the purse. On seven separate occasions it has been found that omb violated the basic separation of powers of our constitution.
▶ 0:09:54Sen. Merkley: I would like to know whether you have studied this and whether you are prepared to make sure that the constitution is defended in omb's actions. Also, there have been the firing of thousands of federal workers who are there to execute the vision laid out by congress. We do have a constitution where congress lays out the vision come lays out the funding of the authorization. But if the people are fired, then that vision is not executed. So, concerned about that.
▶ 0:10:23Sen. Merkley: It would be different if legislation had been passed to saying downsize this significantly or do not spend these funds or reduce the funds. One of the agencies that was very dramatic list the dismantling of usaid. We talked about this yesterday. You noted to me that the responsibilities have simply been transferred to the department of state.
▶ 0:10:45Sen. Merkley: I did not find that to be a full, credible answer it was a transfer but in the process its responsibilities and portfolio were dramatically decreased, leading our various departments, schools of public health, to estimate about 500,000 children have died as a result of the sudden shutdown of programs for malaria, hiv aids, tuberculosis, and dysentery.
▶ 0:11:16Sen. Merkley: That is a huge consequential action for the executive to take an action, dismantle a program that is authorized and funded by congress, resulting in the death of hundreds of thousands of children. If the president doesn't want that program he needs to ask us not to fund it, not to authorize it, not shut it down on his own. I would like to know your opinion about if in the future you will oppose shutting down programs when congress has funded them and authorized them.
▶ 0:11:46Sen. Merkley: I am concerned about the budget proposal put forward by omb. Because it does nothing to help families struggling with affordability. Nothing on gas prices, on grocery prices, no plan to address or save social security, which will start running up of money in five to six years. No plan to help farmers affected by the high diesel prices and fertilizer prices. No meaningful revenue proposals to help reduce the deficit.
▶ 0:12:14Sen. Merkley: In fact, no plan to pay for the war in iran. Throughout all of this, you have been at omb, which raises concerns. Will you be simply a rubberstamp or will you fight to defend the constitution and the balance of powers laid out in our constitution? I look forward to your thoughts. Thank you.
▶ 0:12:35Chair Graham: Please rise. Raise your right hand. Do you solemnly swear the testimony before this committee will be the truth, the whole truth, nothing but the truth so help you god?
▶ 0:12:49Mr. Duncan: I do.
▶ 0:12:53Chair Graham: I will start off. I think we have a pretty good list here. Promise me you are going to answer letters.
▶ 0:13:01Mr. Duncan: Yes, sir.
▶ 0:13:03Chair Graham: That's right, I forgot. Clearly I'm not going to listen to it, but go ahead. [laughter] go ahead.
▶ 0:13:16Mr. Duncan: Thank you, chairman graham, ranking member merkley, members of this committee for holding this hearing. I'm humbled and honored by the opportunity to come before U.S. president trump's nominee for deputy director of the office of management and budget. I want to begin by thanking my wonderful wife army and delightfully rambunctious son patrick for joining me today and here's to hoping that patrick is not escorted out by capitol police sometime during this hearing. I would not be in this position without their love and support.
▶ 0:13:48Mr. Duncan: I want to thank my mom, dad, and brother for traveling from texas to support me as well as my in-laws who traveled from richmond, virginia. I hope this hearing will help answer the question my family often poses to me. So, what exactly do you do? Of course, I want to thank director vote.
▶ 0:14:05Mr. Duncan: It has been the honor of a lifetime serving alongside him at omb during the last year and a half as we work to end fiscal futility and deliver on the bold agenda set forth by president trump. Form -- former deputy director dan bishop testified that he was the man to get the federal government back on track and that has been proven correct 10 times over.
▶ 0:14:28Mr. Duncan: If confirmed I look forward to serving as director russell vought's deputy and continuing our work to support the president and protect the american taxpayer. The omb mission is broad and the reach is wide. I would be crafts the president's budget, manages the federal government, reforms regulations, and coordinates policies across agencies. I believe this work is best characterized by the quiet competence the agency exhibits in support of the president and thereby the american people.
▶ 0:14:59Mr. Duncan: Omb's career staff are among the best and brightest in the federal government and it has been a pleasure to work with them and learn from them as associate director for legislative affairs and legislative associate director. I joined I would be in january of 2025 with the goal of working with congress to address out-of-control spending and implement president trump's plan to usher in a new golden age for america.
▶ 0:15:21Mr. Duncan: I have been particularly proud to work with members and staff of this committee to develop and test two budget reconciliation bills that directly reflect that goal. The working families tax cuts act and the secure america act. The working families tax cuts act cut taxes for american families and businesses while achieving $2 trillion in mandatory savings and securing generational investments in defense and homeland security.
▶ 0:15:46Mr. Duncan: The secure america act, built on that success by providing sustained funding for the brave men and women of I.c.e. And border patrol who work to keep our border say. I was proud to work with this body to pass the for stand-alone decisions package since 1992 the cut 9 million dollars in wasteful and weaponized spending. Built in that success we worked together to complete the fiscal year 2026 appropriations process in a fiscally responsible manner.
▶ 0:16:13Mr. Duncan: We have made historic progress in writing our fiscal ship over the past 18 months, but there is more to be done. I believe that we owe it to american families to be relentless in our pursuit of a government that spends taxpayer dollars wisely, and reduces regulatory burdens. If confirmed, that pursuit will drive me as deputy director and I commit to maintaining a strong relationship with congress to ensure our impacts are enduring. Thank you for considering my nomination.
▶ 0:16:41Mr. Duncan: I look forward to your questions and the opportunity to discuss how omb can continue to deliver on its vital mission.
▶ 0:16:48Chair Graham: Thank you, well done. So, when your family asks you what you do, what do you tell them?
▶ 0:16:55Mr. Duncan: So, as you know I serve as the associate director for legislative affairs. In that capacity I work directly with congress to advance the administration's spending priorities. I think some of the things I mentioned in my testimony --
▶ 0:17:11Chair Graham: If they asked what would you do in your new job, what would you tell them?
▶ 0:17:18Mr. Duncan: A lot is a continuation of what I've been doing. That's a more internal-facing role in which I represent only had meetings with agencies, coordinating with my counterparts across the different agencies and with that -- within the executive office of the president fundamentally supporting the management of omb, his career in political staff, writ large across all of its branches.
▶ 0:17:40Chair Graham: How long have you been doing this job here right now?
▶ 0:17:45Mr. Duncan: I have been with the administration since the first week of president trump's nomination. I believe since january 24th, 2020 five.
▶ 0:17:54Chair Graham: How long have you been acting deputy, the job you are in now? How long have you had that?
▶ 0:18:00Mr. Duncan: I don't remember off the top of my head when I was delegated to duties. I believe it was some time late last year.
▶ 0:18:06Chair Graham: For a while?
▶ 0:18:08Mr. Duncan: Yes, sir.
▶ 0:18:09Chair Graham: Do you feel comfortable doing the job?
▶ 0:18:13Mr. Duncan: Comfortable and very excited for the opportunity if confirmed.
▶ 0:18:17Chair Graham: And we write letters will you answer them?
▶ 0:18:19Mr. Duncan: Yes, sir.
▶ 0:18:22Chair Graham: Let's talk about the budget, an outline the president submits to congress and a view of what we should be doing as a nation. Do you support the president's defense budget request?
▶ 0:18:36Mr. Duncan: Senator, absolutely. I think the threats we have seen in this world necessitate that level of defense spending.
▶ 0:18:42Chair Graham: You think it is justified?
▶ 0:18:45Mr. Duncan: Absolutely.
▶ 0:18:46Chair Graham: During the biden years they submitted budgets too. Very few of them were approved as submitted. What is the biggest difference between you, this omb, and biden in terms of budget?
▶ 0:19:05Mr. Duncan: I think we have seen the successes of the past. Fiscal year 2026 we were able to secure a defense top line of $1 trillion by using both the mandatory and discretionary strategy. The president has recently re-committed to that strategy as recently as last week, calling for congress to pass 350 billion dollars worth of mandatory spending for our defense.
▶ 0:19:33Mr. Duncan: I believe we use the strategies that we have proven work over the last year and continue to move forward to provide for the defense of the american people.
▶ 0:19:44Chair Graham: If we cannot pass a supplemental through the appropriations process dealing with defense and other matters, the democrats want to some things too, do you believe a third reconciliation bill focusing on defense would be justified?
▶ 0:19:59Mr. Duncan: Absolutely.
▶ 0:20:00Chair Graham: Are you ready to work with this committee to craft that reconciliation bill if necessary?
▶ 0:20:06Mr. Duncan: Absolutely. We have done two together and I'm looking forward to a third.
▶ 0:20:11Chair Graham: What areas would you focus on other than defense, in the area of fraud. You have a vision of what we can do in reconciliation to combat fraud? My talk in terms of fraud, supporting the work of the fraud task force is critical. -- Mr. duncan: in terms of fraud, supporting the work of the fraud task team is critical. How they have used that task force to coordinate among agencies to root out waste and fraud to a degree we haven't seen in recent memory.
▶ 0:20:40Chair Graham: Fundamentally supporting the fraud task force, ensuring they have the tools they need to target fraud and root it out I think are two of the most important things we can do in a reconciliation package.
▶ 0:20:50Chair Graham: Thank you, senator merkley.
▶ 0:20:53Sen. Merkley: Thank you very much, Mr. chairman. So, in your prepared remarks you noted, I am committed to maintaining a strong relationship with congress. I noted in my introductory comments that none of the letters I've sent -- and I have all six letters to omb, none of them have been responded to. Yet, you just committed to Mr.
▶ 0:21:20Sen. Merkley: Graham -- chairman graham that you will respond to letters. If you could make that happen -- if you cannot make that happen as a legislative liaison when it is a pretty straightforward, simple task, why would there be such a change in your new position?
▶ 0:21:39Mr. Duncan: Well, senator, first of all I appreciate the question, thank you for meeting with me last night. As mentioned in our meeting last night, some of the letters we discussed what have asked for the disclosure of pre-and deliberative information and information related to ongoing court actions. But that being said, we are committed to improving our letter process.
▶ 0:22:03Mr. Duncan: We have been in the process -- process of implementing a new process to speed up response timelines to letters. We are looking forward to that and hope to work with you on that as well.
▶ 0:22:14Sen. Merkley: I consider zero-six a pretty bad batting average. As we discussed yesterday even when there is future uncertainty regarding lawsuits or future actions, it doesn't mean that you can't respond. It means you can respond and say, here are the restraints, the restrictions. I strongly encourage a very different approach to communicating with congress.
▶ 0:22:40Sen. Merkley: I wanted to turn to basically this question of when you became the acting director, deputy director.
▶ 0:22:58Mr. Duncan: The exact timeline?
▶ 0:22:59Sen. Merkley: November or december of last year?
▶ 0:23:04Mr. Duncan: November or december. I wasn't able to go to the office post our meeting yesterday. I'm happy to follow up with the exact timeline I was delegated duties. I'm happy to do that right after this hearing.
▶ 0:23:19Sen. Merkley: It was only five months after basically november that we learned that you had adopted or been delegated these responsibilities as the head of legislative affairs. Wouldn't that have been relevant to inform congress this was your new role?
▶ 0:23:37Mr. Duncan: I appreciate the question. We were working on a nomination timeline as well. I was delegated the duties in dan bishop's absence which has effectively been filling in for him and his duties in that time period. I certainly understand the point. But my nomination went up in april. I look forward to working with you on omb-related topics of confirmed.
▶ 0:24:04Sen. Merkley: Do you believe the 2020 election was rigged?
▶ 0:24:08Mr. Duncan: I believe joe biden was certified as the winner of the 2020 election.
▶ 0:24:12Sen. Merkley: He was certified, but do you believe the election outcome was rigged?
▶ 0:24:18Mr. Duncan: As mentioned I believe joe biden was certified as the winner of the 2020 election.
▶ 0:24:25Sen. Merkley: Noted two are not responding to the question. You are familiar with the impoundment control act?
▶ 0:24:30Mr. Duncan: Yes, I am.
▶ 0:24:33Senator Merkley: There is essentially a constitutional understanding that has been reinforced by the supreme court twice. The power of the purse cannot be delegated to the president, no matter how much the president wants to cancel programs that are authorized or funded or start programs that are not funded, he doesn't get to decide that. And yet, what we are seeing our programs being canceled, like I mentioned usaid.
▶ 0:25:00Senator Merkley: Will you defend the separation of powers and throw up a cautionary yellow flag and expressed some concerns if the strategy of omb is to cancel an authorized and funded program?
▶ 0:25:11Mr. Duncan: Senator, I certainly appreciate the question. I firmly committed to upholding the constitution. As you know, the president ran on restoring the impoundment authority, and any authority that presidents had exercised for over 200 years. That said, we have been in full compliance with the impoundment control act to date, but fundamentally this question has been litigated multiple times before this committee and I look forward to continuing to work with you on it.
▶ 0:25:38Sen. Merkley: So, really that was not an answer to the question. The administration has shut down programs that are authorized and funded. If there is another proposal to shut down a program that is authorized and funded will you raise -- I'm not asking about what you will publicly oppose it -- will you strive to make sure there is a yellow flag put up and say this may be violating the separation of powers?
▶ 0:26:06Mr. Duncan: Appreciate the question. Senator, I would commit to abiding by the constitution and the laws on the books.
▶ 0:26:11Sen. Merkley: Let me turn -- I am over my time. You are spared any additional questions. Thank you.
▶ 0:26:22Chair Graham: Senator grassley.
▶ 0:26:22Sen. Grassley: Whoever gave me your slot, thank you very much. I think president trump is doing a real good job of bringing the regulatory state, of raining it in. At the start of his term president trump set a benchmark of slashing 10 existing regulations for each new regulation issued.
▶ 0:26:51Sen. Grassley: I understand the administration far exceeded that with may be a ratio of 1:29. How accurate is that number? What has this meant in terms of time and dollars saved by the private sector? And cannot be measured with some certainty?
▶ 0:27:14Mr. Duncan: Senator, absolutely. Appreciate the question. The number that you referenced, the 129:1, obviously extremely proud of. It doesn't include guidance, documents that have the effect of regulations in there, but we are far exceeding the 10:1 ratio. We have exceeded over one trillion dollars worth of savings to the economy via the deregulatory agenda.
▶ 0:27:42Mr. Duncan: The repeal of the endangerment finding alone saved the economy an estimated $1.3 trillion. We are excited to put out our next unified agenda related to our regulatory agenda for this coming year. With that we will have additional information that we will be able to share related to the fiscal impacts of our deregulatory policies.
▶ 0:28:07Sen. Grassley: On my next question, keep in the back of your mind the reason I am asking is I altered that legislation in 1992. One of the stated is to eliminate obstacles to energy production. As a supporter of all of the above energy strategies, I am concerned this commitment is not being applied consistently to all forms of energy.
▶ 0:28:37Sen. Grassley: In iowa, several wind energy projects are currently halted due for some reevaluation of wind energy mitigation agreement process performed by the department of defense. My staff has been in contact with the dod. I understand there is an effort to identify projects of global national security concerns for approval.
▶ 0:29:02Sen. Grassley: What is omb's role in this process, and will you commit to working with me to mitigate bureaucratic red tape standing in the way of iowa wind projects? By the way, we get 60% of our electricity in iowa from wind.
▶ 0:29:21Mr. Duncan: Appreciate the question. I'm not directly familiar with the matter at hand. I'm happy to take that back to our team, but certainly committed to working with you on it.
▶ 0:29:31Sen. Grassley: If you do that, I will appreciate it. I hope my staff heard that and will get in touch with you pretty darn soon. As part of the family -- working families tax cut act, congress extended, modified the clean fuels tax credit with an eye towards making it work better for farmers. Seeing this law implemented properly and on a timely fashion is a top priority of mine.
▶ 0:30:01Sen. Grassley: In april, omb -- usda submitted to your agency an biofuels feedstock rule that related to accurately calculating this credit. This rule is necessary to ensure farmers can fully participate in the program. When can farmers expect omb to complete this review process?
▶ 0:30:27Sen. Grassley: Before you answer that, I just think over the weekend this process may have been smoothed out a little bit by finally the department of energy reaching some agreements that were necessary before you would get the role. -- the rule.
▶ 0:30:44Mr. Duncan: We are closely tracking the 45z rule, understand the priority to your constituents about getting this rule out. I believe we are making progress and will have an update for you on that soon.
▶ 0:30:58Sen. Grassley: Thank you. Thank you.
▶ 0:31:03Chair Graham: Senator johnson. >> you're up for an important job running the nerve center of the government. It is critical you can be depended upon the follow the law and speak up when you believe others are not. Can we count on you to do that?
▶ 0:31:20Mr. Duncan: I appreciate the question. I will commit to following the law and upholding the constitution.
▶ 0:31:27Sen. Murray: Following up on what senator merkley was asking, can you ensure all of us that omb will not attempt to do another end run around the congress with an illegal pocket recision the september?
▶ 0:31:50Mr. Duncan: I appreciate the question. As it relates to the pocket rescissions, pocket rescissions have been executed by previous administrations, the ford administration following the passage of the impoundment control act. I could not commit to the fiscal tools the administration may or may not use in the future, but I certainly look forward to working with you.
▶ 0:32:00Sen. Murray: I'm glad you are committed to working with me but pocket recision is a critical issue and I'm concerned about the answer you gave. Omb recently proposed a rule to overhaul the federal grant-making system that allows you to terminate grants based on some vague "administration values or priorities." that sounds to me like you all are trying to turn the entire federal government into this one big slush fund to reward those
▶ 0:32:32Sen. Murray: Aligned with the administration and punish everyone else. One provision prohibits funding activities that promote "anti-american values." under this administration that could mean practically anything. I just want to make sure that we are on the same page here. Let me ask you, if this proposed rule went into effect, what limits would be placed on the administration's ability to reward grants to its political allies or deny funding to anyone else?
▶ 0:33:00Mr. Duncan: Well, senator, I appreciate the question. The rule is currently in the proposed phase. It will close for comment I believe july 13. The rule is fundamentally about accountability and ensuring we are able to have good oversight over the grant process and that it is in alignment with the administration's agenda.
▶ 0:33:20Mr. Duncan: But as it relates to the rule we will certainly follow the statutes that govern underlying programs and are committed to ensuring that federal taxpayer dollars are rewarded in a way that is responsible.
▶ 0:33:33Sen. Murray: I was looking for a concrete answer. Is there any language -- I didn't see any, but I will ask you -- that places limits on cronyism?
▶ 0:33:45Mr. Duncan: We would move forward with the rule and agencies in a manner that is consistent with applicable law.
▶ 0:33:51Sen. Murray: The way I read it is the reality is a political appointee like you could terminate a cancer research grant or hospital research grants only because of the president's whim or personal vendetta and to me that is unacceptable. We know how this administration would abuse this. I hope all of our colleagues will join us to stop this, and they should remember, what goes around comes around.
▶ 0:34:14Sen. Murray: But I think that is a very concerning proposed rule it allows some -- allows omb to make political decisions that they should not be making. So, I think we should all be worried about that. I just wanted to bring it to everyone's attention. Let me ask about another issue. Last week we learned that the social security trust fund will run out of money in just six months, -- six years, three months sooner than previously estimated.
▶ 0:34:41Sen. Murray: When pressed, speaker johnson said entitlements should be "adjusted." I have been around long enough to know adjustments means cuts. Elon musk had free reign over the federal government. He has called social security a "ponzi scheme." it is no surprise that trump's latest budget request did not include any solvency proposal for social security.
▶ 0:35:11Sen. Murray: Why doesn't omb view social security solvency is an important enough issue to include in a budget request?
▶ 0:35:14Mr. Duncan: Senator, I appreciate the question and as the director testified on a similar question when he was here, president trump has been immensely clear on his support for protecting social security and medicare, and that will continue to be the northstar for this administration moving forward.
▶ 0:35:30Sen. Murray: Nothing in the budget request -- for our knowledge for decades presidents have presented a full budget, including projections and proposals for mandatory programs like social security. This administration simply is failing to do its most important work. I have to guess because they don't care. Democrats have introduced a number of proposals to address the solvency crisis without cutting benefits. We haven't seen anything from this administration.
▶ 0:35:57Sen. Murray: Doing nothing means seniors are going to see a 22% cut in their social security benefits in 2030 two. That is about $10,000 a year . We expect this administration to do in this budget would previous presidents have done a present as a proposal. >> Mr. duncan, congratulations on your nomination.
▶ 0:36:21Sen. Murray: There is an awful lot of bipartisan whistling by the graveyard now and I think we are hearing it from the other side now. Some facts before questions. Before the pandemic we spent $4.4 trillion. This year well over $7 trillion. Almost a 70% increase over what we spent in 2019, correct?
▶ 0:36:42Mr. Duncan: Senator, that is correct.
▶ 0:36:43Sen. Johnson: I have seen the low estimate in terms of fraud out of that $7 trillion about 250 billion a year. We have the seal of lexis-nexis -- I didn't realize you did research -- about $1 trillion a year. Sec. Bessent claims around 500 billion dollars. There is a range. We are concerned about the executive actually managing the budget and trying to stop that fraud. I was interested in Dr.
▶ 0:37:12Sen. Johnson: Oz pointing out the fact that one third of hospice centers are in los angeles. When you stop funding 400 of them, not one complaint. Not one. 400 fraudulent hospice centers. How many billions of dollars is going out to fraud? You are fully aware and I appreciate the work you did to help me get a little more funding for omb.
▶ 0:37:41Sen. Johnson: Senator merkley pointed out your budget is about $175 million a year, divided by 7.5 trillion dollars that is about .0025%. I would say most major corporations spend a lot more on their comptroller department to try to manage the financial situation of the business. I think we should be doing more managing of the federal budget. I appreciate you working with me to get one hundred million dollars.
▶ 0:38:11Sen. Johnson: It sounds like a lot but is a drop in the bucket for folks on the management side. I wanted to give you an opportunity. What you have been working on on the management side, the line by line valuation of the budget, evaluation of programs. It's not easy. Ai we are trying to do to establish to find the information where you have 400 fraudulent hospice centers in l.a.. I will give you the floor.
▶ 0:38:37Mr. Duncan: Appreciate the question, senator. Appreciate you working with us so hard. A great relationship we've had. On the fraud point, that is why the fraud task force is so important. There are estimates of fraud, but we really don't know. We don't have a solid number in there so many limitations that we keep uncovering us the task force is investigating this.
▶ 0:38:59Sen. Johnson: Let me interject. Trying to prosecute and recover is almost impossible. I think the latest department of justice figure is they prosecute something like $7.4 billion versus maybe 1000 billion dollars. You have to prevent it. On the front side, like Dr. oz did, correct? Part of that is to make sure we don't have waste, fraud, and abuse.
▶ 0:39:25Mr. Duncan: It is important we put controls on the front end which is why I think some of the actions we are taking are important. Under the 2cfr regulations for grant making every agency would be required to be using the do not pay list before they send out funding. If ig's catch fraud they would be required to send that instance of fraud to the U.S. attorney for the district of columbia within 10 days.
▶ 0:39:55Mr. Duncan: We think a lot of these controls, in addition to the accountability of having one of the president's political personnel serving as the last checked on a grant before it goes out, will certainly help us manage the federal budget and ensure that we are stopping fraud on the front end of the cut is so hard to combat on the back end.
▶ 0:40:14Sen. Johnson: Wouldn't it be great if that collects on the other side of the isle would be concerned about that fraud and work with the administration to encourage, for example, their governors to provide the information to the federal government so we can stop it before it is spent? Can you talk about the frustration the administration is having in terms of getting the data they need to analyze to prevent fraud from going out the door in the first place?
▶ 0:40:40Mr. Duncan: Senator, a great question. I think in the snap program we have seen many states being unwilling to provide information to usda. Certain states have willingly provided information to ensure that there are proper controls in the snap program. That that funding is going out. We have seen many states refuse to do it. Obviously, we think this is a bipartisan issue. We think we can bring everyone to the table and we hope everyone would do so moving forward to have permanent, enduring reforms.
▶ 0:41:09Mr. Duncan: I don't think anyone here wants to see fraud in the federal government.
▶ 0:41:12Sen. Johnson: Michael is to use the 100 million dollars to establish a permanent ai program in the structure of the programs of omb and prevent the money from going out where you can never recover it. Thank you, Mr. duncan. Congratulations. >> Mr. chair, Mr. duncan, I applaud you for your judgment. Like me you grew up in another state and married a virginian. We have that connection. Was the 2020 four presidential election rigged?
▶ 0:41:44Mr. Duncan: President trump won the 2024 presidential election. >> he was asked twice was the 2020 presidential election rigged and he said president biden was certified to be the winner and would answer the question. Saying president biden was certified as the winner is like saying today is tuesday, june 16. Obviously, it is a fact. But he would not acknowledge that president biden won that race. Now, there is only one of two reasons Mr. duncan.
▶ 0:42:15Mr. Duncan: You have either fallen victim to the conspiracy mindset that says that election was rigged. If you are a conspiracy theorist you shouldn't be let anywhere near the position you have been nominated for. Or, you know that president biden won the election but are afraid of making an insecure president manned by acknowledging that fact. You answered so easily when I asked you the question about 2024. You didn't fight, evade, obscure, you said president trump won the election, which he did.
▶ 0:42:44Mr. Duncan: He won the popular vote and electoral college. The answer was just as simple about 2020. The fact that you are unable to give the simple answer about 2020 raises real concerns. In your current position I believe you are the legislative affairs director for usaid, which the programs to the extent it is being delivered at all are being delivered through state and others, but omb is managing the wind down of the operation.
▶ 0:43:12Mr. Duncan: We are currently in the midst of a severe global health crisis. We have an ebola outbreak in africa that is accelerating rapidly and that some experts have warned could be extremely dangerous. We are seeing screw warm return to the united states after decades of work to eradicate it. Desks group worm return to the united states after decades of work to eradicate it. We have had 111 cases in virginia so far this year and only 25 last year.
▶ 0:43:43Mr. Duncan: Meanwhile, what is the administration that has the administration been doing to prepare for these types of global health issues? We withdrew from the world health organization, undermining our ability to coordinate with other nation responses. After withdrawing, secretary rubio said the w.h.o. Didn't do a good job of picking up ebola. Thanks, sherlock.
▶ 0:44:05Mr. Duncan: Backed out of the w.h.o., quit funding, participating, the administration isn't as effective as picking up a disease that could harm americans. We canceled hundreds of millions in mrna vaccine funding and are trying to cancel more in cdc grants related to pandemic. We have illegally shuttered usaid, one of the agencies that is responsible for the progress we had made in combating screw worm.
▶ 0:44:31Mr. Duncan: Not to mention whether the agency's key to addressing the ebola outbreaks. The trump administration has pushed out experts across the government -- not just usaid. Employees at the department of agriculture's animal and plant health inspection services are down one quarter. Cdc is down one quarter. Many specific offices at hhs have lost tons of employees. They haven't told us how many yet.
▶ 0:44:57Mr. Duncan: Today, the omb is still withholding $2 million in congressionally passed global health funding from last year. Fy 25. The administration only started to release some of these moneys away late after the ebola ebola outbreak got bad. -- moneys way late after the ebola outbreak got bad.
▶ 0:45:24Mr. Duncan: Secretary rubio testified he's ready to use this $2 billion from fy 25 to deal with global health issues, but he is waiting for the omb to release the money. Release the money from fy 25 when we are dealing with ebola, screw worm, measles, hantavirus. Will the omb release this money or will you wait for more health crises to emerge?
▶ 0:45:49Mr. Duncan: I appreciate the question. I believe you referenced this, but we already notified via state requesting funds off the congressional notification that you are referring to. We have already notified of the congress that one hundred million dollars of the global health security funding involved in that cn is going to combat ebola. We have also apportioned an additional $500 million on top of that from that cn to go towards ebola as well.
▶ 0:46:19Sen. Warren: Is that the same as released or is that internally we think we might one day make these money is available?
▶ 0:46:28Mr. Duncan: From the omb perspective that would be releasing.
▶ 0:46:32Sen. Warren: When will that money be released?
▶ 0:46:35Mr. Duncan: I will refer to the state department and they will submit a congressional notification on these funds.
▶ 0:46:41Sen. Warren: To remind my colleagues, secretary rubio said he wants to use this 2 billion dollars from fy 25 to combat these global crises and is waiting on omb to release it. My time is up, but I want to say, shouldn't you be confirmed -- but even before there is any vote on confirmation -- in the midst of these crises omb should release the money that congress allocated over a year ago to deliver it -- to deal with precisely these kinds of health emergencies. I yelled back, Mr. chair.
▶ 0:47:13Sen. Warren: -- I yeild back, Mr. chair.
▶ 0:47:21Sen. Kennedy: Every now and then I see an article that is something like, federal government spends $25 million to study whether a man can breast-feed. Or the federal government spends $50 million to try to teach a neighborhood squirrel to code.
▶ 0:47:52Sen. Kennedy: I think, how did that stuff get in there? I sit on the appropriations committee. We are supposed to put together a budget. Sometimes we do. This year we probably won't because my friend and colleague senator schumer wants to shut down government to create chaos to try to get the graham plattner wing of his party to love him, but I digress.
▶ 0:48:21Sen. Kennedy: That stuff is not in the budget when we vote on the budget. Where does it come from?
▶ 0:48:28Mr. Duncan: Well, senator, I appreciate the question and you have been a champion on these issues and I would know your work on the rescissions process highlighting some of these outrageous spending we've seen in the past. I think this is why our updates to the cfr which governs grantmaking across the federal enterprise is so critical.
▶ 0:48:50Sen. Kennedy: Tell the american people what that is.
▶ 0:48:52Mr. Duncan: Appreciate the opportunity.
▶ 0:48:55Sen. Kennedy: Like talking to a 10th grader.
▶ 0:48:58Mr. Duncan: Fundamentally some of the most important things are to ensure that grants are not going to divisive ideologies, to support illegal immigration, not supporting radical gender ideologies, those are fundamental.
▶ 0:49:14Sen. Kennedy: Stupid stuff.
▶ 0:49:15Mr. Duncan: Stupid stuff generally. The arbiter of ensuring things do not go to stupid stuff, as you put it, is ultimately a political appointee, one of the president's people associated with the administration appointed by the president. Comes in and does a final issuance review before grant dollars go out. It's fundamentally about accountability. It's not intended to usurp peer review or anything like that. It's about making sure --
▶ 0:49:50Sen. Kennedy: Let me stop you because we are running out of time. Congress never sees this kind of spending until after the fact, correct?
▶ 0:49:53Mr. Duncan: That is correct.
▶ 0:49:53Sen. Kennedy: It is not in our budget?
▶ 0:49:54Mr. Duncan: That is correct.
▶ 0:49:56Sen. Kennedy: Somebody decides they will spend 25 million dollars to study whether a man can breast-feed, right?
▶ 0:50:06Mr. Duncan: Yes, sir.
▶ 0:50:07Sen. Kennedy: That is what I mean by stupid stuff. Do you consider that to be stupid stuff?
▶ 0:50:14Mr. Duncan: Absolutely.
▶ 0:50:15Sen. Kennedy: What you will do it omb is try to stop the stupid stuff. Find out who made that grant and say no, no, we are not going to spend money on this. By the way, if you do it again you are fired. Is that right? That's what you guys are going to do?
▶ 0:50:31Mr. Duncan: Yes, sir.
▶ 0:50:33Sen. Kennedy: It's about time. Let me ask you one more question. When moms and dads lie down to sleep at night and can't right now at this point in time what is the first thing they are worried about?
▶ 0:50:46Mr. Duncan: I would imagine it would be the ability to support their families.
▶ 0:50:51Sen. Kennedy: Yes. The cost of living. Part of that is inflation. Look, I don't -- I remember inflation is very sticky. I remember when it started it got to 9%. President trump did not father this child but he has to raise it. The cost of living.
▶ 0:51:22Sen. Kennedy: Thank you for being straightforward. Have you ever gone -- let me preface this by saying I have two doctors, brothers who are doctors. I love health care providers. Have you ever gone to a health care provider and you get a bill saying you owe us $1400? You go, what the hell? Has that happened to you?
▶ 0:51:43Mr. Duncan: Yes, sir. It actually has.
▶ 0:51:47Sen. Kennedy: Has happen to a lot of americans because the way that our health care provider bill makes no sense. So, they turn it over to a collection agency. The collection agency says, look, you pay this $1400. We won't explain to you how it got here. If we did we would have to drown you in the pacific. But if you don't pay it we will turn it into the credit rating agency can ruin your credit.
▶ 0:52:20Sen. Kennedy: If we want to help the american people why don't we at least for a period of time say health care debt is not going to be reported to the rating agencies? We are not saying you do not have to pay it, not saying it is not due, not saying you cannot be sued.
▶ 0:52:40Sen. Kennedy: But this debt is being reported to rating agencies when people cannot pay it, and then their credit gets ruined and it makes it even harder for them to live. That is a swell idea, isn't it?
▶ 0:52:56Mr. Duncan: Senator, I think the administration has been very committed to price transparency and ensuring --
▶ 0:53:01Sen. Kennedy: What about that idea?
▶ 0:53:03Mr. Duncan: I'm happy to take that back and determine the administrations position on that matter?
▶ 0:53:09Sen. Kennedy: How about advocating for it?
▶ 0:53:11Mr. Duncan: I'm happy to work with you on this matter, absolutely.
▶ 0:53:15Sen. Kennedy: I went way over, sorry, Mr. chairman. >> I would like to state that I am fascinated by senator kennedy's media feed, your social media feed. But I digress. I appreciate you being here to answer questions as we consider your nomination.
▶ 0:53:38Sen. Kennedy: Let me begin with a question relative to omb's may 20 26 proposed rule to implement the sweeping overhaul of the uniform guidance governing federal grants and financial assistance, substantially expand agency's authority to expand or terminate awards, elevate the role of political appointees in grant decisions and governmentwide rent making rules through omb.
▶ 0:54:10Sen. Kennedy: The proposal, as I'm sure you've heard, has generated significant concern among states, amongst local governments, its universities, nonprofit organizations, and other recipients of federal funds. Members in congress are extremely concerned about the true objective of this rulemaking, which would be to provide cover for the politically-motivated actions of this administration to cancel thousands of grants named cannot be aligned with the president's
▶ 0:54:42Sen. Kennedy: Partisan political agenda, actions that have been repeatedly found by the courts to be illegal and unconstitutional. Th t-- these changes are meant to make it easier for the administration to override funding decisions made by congress. Colleagues, congress is the separate and coequal branch of government. The rule would inject political considerations into the administration of federal grants. My question is pretty simple.
▶ 0:55:11Sen. Kennedy: If confirmed will you commit that omb will not use the uniform guidance or any future revisions to it as a vehicle to circumvent congressional spending decisions or to impose policy conditions that congress itself did not enact?
▶ 0:55:30Mr. Duncan: Senator, certainly appreciate the question. Fundamentally the updates to 2 cfr about accountability entering someone is accountable directly to the president is ultimately signing off on these final decisions in our $1 trillion grant-making enterprise. The cfr, the update to the federal code of regulations will be done in a matter that is consistent with applicable laws.
▶ 0:55:54Mr. Duncan: This is a method by which of the administration is proposing to get its arms around the enterprise that we have seen abused in the past.
▶ 0:56:02Sen. Padilla: Colleagues, for the record that is an articulate, diplomatic way of saying, yes, it is whatever the president wants. That is the objective here. That is your answer in all. I advise my colleagues that if this rule changes, just for the balance of this administration, it is a permanent change. At some point there will be a democratic majority. There will be a democratic president in the white house.
▶ 0:56:30Sen. Padilla: With this rule change, if that is the road you go down. My second area of question is relative to funding. As bipartisan members of congress have communicated to agency leadership over the last year, see dfi has played a vital role in delivering capital and financial services to communities and businesses that lack access to traditional lending.
▶ 0:56:54Sen. Padilla: The omb purposeful delay of these funds have created significant uncertainty for the organization's that serve as an lifeline and frankly do a critical job in boosting our economy. After over a year of withholding these funds and many calls from congress, both sides of the aisle, omb just recently released the fiscal year 25 cdfi fund awards.
▶ 0:57:21Sen. Padilla: However, director vought and his response to this committee's questions for cuts to the program for fiscal year 27 continue to make unsubstantiated claims of abuse. I've heard you say it in this hearing. You are concerned about abuse, concerned about abuse. If there's unsubstantiated claims of abuse you are making it up and using it as a pretext to hold much needed funding and increasingly on a partisan basis.
▶ 0:57:50Sen. Padilla: I will try to ask you again clearly. Will you commit to ending omb's interference with the fiscal year 25 cdfi notice of funding availability as well as the 26 apportionment and ensure the timely obligation and disbursement of funds as intended by congress, yes or no?
▶ 0:58:14Mr. Duncan: I appreciate the question. You mentioned omb was conducting a programmatic review of the 25-20 six funds. The funds have been apportioned. So, I commit to ensuring that the funds are spent in a responsible manner and we will obviously be taking those steps to ensure that they are not abusing the funds and we will release them once the safeguards are in place.
▶ 0:58:37Sen. Padilla: Time is money, so when there are delays in this funding it undermines the economic benefit of these programs and there is a long track record of abuse you can make the argument for additional review. But with the unsubstantiated it is uncalled for and damaging to the american economy. Thank you, Mr. chairman. >> Mr. duncan, thank you for being here.
▶ 0:59:07Sen. Padilla: In my lifetime here's what happened. When I went to college it cost $200 to go to junior college. For a whole semester. $255 to go for a whole semester of university. You could take as many hours as you want. You could buy a home in the suburbs for $21,000, three bedroom, one bath, in a safe, nice suburb. You could buy a brand-new car for $1600. You could buy annual health care for a family of four for $700.
▶ 0:59:37Sen. Padilla: You looked at a $25,000 plus a for a family of four for health care. You can't hardly find a new car for less than $20,000. You can't buy -- the article said 242 -- I think 242 cities had starter homes around $1 million. You think government had any role in causing this inflation?
▶ 1:00:05Mr. Duncan: I absolutely think government has had a role in that is why the administration' is the regulatory and spinning agenda is so critical to getting these costs down, undoing the burdens placed on the american people by the previous administration and continuing to try to drag costs down.
▶ 1:00:23Sen. Scott: So, we now have -- we will hit $40 trillion in debt this year. $40 trillion in debt, $1 trillion year of interest expense, we are running to trillion dollar deficits. So, if that doesn't change, we don't get to a balanced budget and pay down the debt, do you think it would just like that go way back down again?
▶ 1:00:47Mr. Duncan: I think we certainly need to continue to address deficit spending. I think we set forward a framework on how to do it this past year through rescissions, keeping the discretionary appropriations in a fiscally responsible manner, and also delivering on the mandatory savings that we did in the working families tax cut act. We need to continue to work forward with that model.
▶ 1:01:10Mr. Duncan: I think to the chairman's point and senator johnson's point, attacking the fraud is really important in getting our arms around the spending and continuing to bring down costs so we don't have the debt burden and interest rate problems you are referring to.
▶ 1:01:25Sen. Scott: So, our country, all of us, our military is completely dependent on chinese drugs. Right? We don't -- almost all of the ingredients for generic drugs are made in china. There are studies out of the university of indiana that tells us how unhealthy these drugs are. They have held back chinese governments -- the chinese government has held back rare earth minerals and could hold back pharmaceuticals easily.
▶ 1:01:55Sen. Scott: You think it's important for us to build domestic supply chains for pharmaceutical drugs, and also not -- the other thing that is happening is the buy american act are supposed to guard against this chinese drugs. But there are unbelievable waivers given all the time because we don't have the supply here. Is there anything you think the omb could be doing to fix that?
▶ 1:02:20Mr. Duncan: Senator come appreciate the question. I think dedicating more resources to reshoring advanced drug manufacturing is critical. Also, I believe you have been involved in some of these efforts, our office of federal procurement policy and are made in america office are working together to ensure that we are taking policies, administratively, to promote domestic drug manufacturing.
▶ 1:02:47Mr. Duncan: A critical way of doing that is sending the into signals through the federal procurement process, which we have done on a number of items. It is a priority for the administration.
▶ 1:02:59Sen. Scott: President trump has done a great job. Work to cut taxes, to identify and eliminate fraudulent payments. What would you like congress to do to do a better job, to fulfill a need of the agenda?
▶ 1:03:21Mr. Duncan: I appreciate the question. Building upon the questions is critical. To keep spending under control, two key priorities, to continue to build on that, and frankly continuing to bring stuff to omb saying, when you take a look at this, there are multiple times when we get information from congress, highlighting an issue for us that we had not known.
▶ 1:03:48Mr. Duncan: I think there is a conception that we know everything all of the time. We know a lot of things, we are resource constrained, we rely on our colleagues in congress to flag things for us. Making sure we have a collaborative effort to make sure we are delivering on reducing spending and regulatory burdens so we can move forward.
▶ 1:04:10Sen. Scott: Thank you for all your work and hard jobs. >> thank you for being here. Do you think being deputy director of owner omb requires someone of good character?
▶ 1:04:24Mr. Duncan: I appreciate the question, I do. >> do you have a nazi tattoo on your body? >> I do not have any tattoos. >> it would make you ineligible in maine. Since the last budget committee we have heard a lot about the stock market and oil prices.
▶ 1:04:55Mr. Duncan: We have gas prices that are plummeting that are making democrats very sad. The reality is that president trump's policies are working. Are you happy about that? Is it good have record >> absolutely, this gets back to senator kennedy's question as well. We wake up every morning to try to get prices down.
▶ 1:05:20Mr. Duncan: With the signing of the mou, we are going to seek prices continuing to fall and prices rocketing. >> and the added benefit of having your path to peace in the middle east.
▶ 1:05:34Mr. Duncan: At the last budget hearing, you wouldn't believe you think the government of the united states at the federal level is working better, the same, forget politics, the efficiency of blocking and talk -- tackling, getting your tax refunds, dealing with the federal government?
▶ 1:06:02Mr. Duncan: >> I think it's functioning much better than the previous administration.
▶ 1:06:05Sen. Moreno: So, much better. Obviously, the number of federal employees matters, right? Typically you need humans on the other side of that phone call or email. What's that level of employment versus years ago? >> we've seen a reduction of about 3000 federal employees since the administration took office. >> how many?
▶ 1:06:35Sen. Moreno: Hundred thousand federal workers is working much better. How is that possible? >> we been able to remove inefficiencies. How does it affect the taxpayer? To someone who lives in ohio, how does this affect them?
▶ 1:06:54Sen. Moreno: >> by making sure that they are getting their services more quickly, tax returns or what have you, and reducing headcount and seeing those visuals go to the private sector produces the federal fiscal burden carried with funding.
▶ 1:07:13Sen. Moreno: You would agree the federal government shouldn't be a works program for the unqualified, correct? Eliminating 300,000 from the workforce, yet we are operating more efficiently, meaning we could lower the tax burden on the american citizen. It's an amazing accomplishment. I turned on cnn every single morning and I didn't see the stock market chart.
▶ 1:07:47Sen. Moreno: 300,000 less employees, tax recovery going up quicker, government quicker. Is that a disconnect? >> it is a disconnect.
▶ 1:07:57Sen. Moreno: You talked about this with senator scott, we have the buy american act and I would like to give a plug to kevin rhodes, who is doing a great job . You obviously know that the nitro manufacturing at the center of the universe is in ohio.
▶ 1:08:15Sen. Moreno: How quickly do you think we can get these procurement orders done so that the former paper mill insula cough, ohio they got shut down by a private equity fund that was best buddies with the bidens, we've got that into a nitrile glove manufacturing facility that will start thriving, when can they expect orders so that we stop having chinese nitrile gloves flooding the market? >> appreciate the question, appreciated working with you on the issue.
▶ 1:08:45Sen. Moreno: As you may or may not know, we started working on a new contract to sort of consolidate nitrile glove procurement within the federal government for all agencies to make sure that we are buying american gloves. The contract began executing at the beginning of the month. It started with a few agencies and it will roll out and expand to a larger swath and I think we will start seeing buying power and demand signals expanding over the next few weeks.
▶ 1:09:12Sen. Moreno: >> a huge contrast to what biden was doing, flooding the zone, giving these companies tens of millions, and it is actually produce a single solitary glove, what we are doing is giving them demand signals so that they can build their business and grow it. It's an amazing accomplishment and I would be remiss if I didn't add congratulations for your nomination by the president.
▶ 1:09:36Sen. Moreno: If we could clone you in duplicate you to the government, it would run even more efficiently and we could maybe take off another 300,000 employees. People like you who are called to service in the federal government, it is gratifying to see so many of your skills and character go in there. I know that you will do an amazing job and I look forward to voting to confirm you.
▶ 1:10:04Senator: Listening to your responses to senator moreno, Mr. duncan, I can tell you that the people waiting in long lines at social security regional don't k don't s don't e gotten more efficient. You are aware that the tax season was at risk due to staffing shortages?
▶ 1:10:23Mr. Duncan: We are trying to --
▶ 1:10:26Senator Van Hollen: I'm just asking you if you were aware that it was at risk because of shortages.
▶ 1:10:36Mr. Duncan: I'm not aware. I will take a look at it if it is in front of you but everything we are doing is towards commitment for the american people for efficiency.
▶ 1:10:47Sen. Van Hollen: You had to re-hire people that were fired at the irs. That doesn't sound more efficient. The same thing is true at fema. They reinstituted fire personnel because they were unprepared. Were you aware of that fact?
▶ 1:11:02Mr. Duncan: I'm not aware of the specific thing, that would be fema related.
▶ 1:11:11Sen. Van Hollen: The same is true and the national weather service. Were you aware of that? >> I would have to defer to the national weather service.
▶ 1:11:26Sen. Van Hollen: 25 thousand federal employees have been rehired after being terminated. You know how much that costs the taxpayer to rehire them?
▶ 1:11:36Mr. Duncan: I don't have an estimate.
▶ 1:11:39Sen. Van Hollen: I have an estimate from a nonpartisan entity department for public service, the process of rehiring the same people that were fired caused the taxpayer 12 million-dollar. That doesn't sound more efficient to me. Mr. duncan, your boss at omb, director vote, has said "when civil servants wake up in the morning, we want them to not want to go to work because they are increasingly viewed as the villains.
▶ 1:12:09Sen. Van Hollen: He went on to say "we want to put them in trauma." do you see merit based civil servants as the villains?
▶ 1:12:20Mr. Duncan: First, director vote has addressed that multiple times.
▶ 1:12:29Sen. Van Hollen: I'm asking you.
▶ 1:12:31Mr. Duncan: The omb that I work closely with and the director, who has a wonderful relationship with civil service, they are among the best and brightest in federal government.
▶ 1:12:42Sen. Van Hollen: So, you don't want to put them in trauma?
▶ 1:12:45Mr. Duncan: That quote is related to certain bureaucracies in the federal government.
▶ 1:12:51Sen. Van Hollen: Sen. van
▶ 1:12:51Hollen: It's just a question for you, not Mr. vote. Do you want to put federal employees in trauma? Yes or no? I'm asking you your view. Do you think it's a good idea to put federal employees in trauma?
▶ 1:13:08Mr. Duncan: What you are referring to was a reference to weaponized bureaucracy.
▶ 1:13:18Sen. Van Hollen: I'm simply asking you for your view.
▶ 1:13:21Mr. Duncan: The quote you are referring to was taken out of context.
▶ 1:13:26Sen. Van Hollen: I'm asking you a direct question, it's interesting that you don't want to provide a direct answer. Senator moreno raise concerns about the new proposal to completely politicized the grantmaking process, the update to uniform guidance.
▶ 1:13:43Sen. Van Hollen: I hope that people can understand that wants to create a/fund to use taxpayer dollars to make payouts to individuals convicted of assault and capitol police on january 6, the idea of further politicizing the process of grantmaking is really, really alarming. I know that this is in process. I want to talk you about another political effort going on.
▶ 1:14:12Sen. Van Hollen: You want to replace about 8000 merit-based civil servants with political appointees. You want to make a thousand positions that will. I was just looking through the omb list here of people who would now be made at will. One of the senior policy analyst positions, physical scientists. Why do you want to make that into a political position?
▶ 1:14:36Mr. Duncan: I appreciate the question. I think that the updates to the schedule policy career are about one thing, accountability. As it relates to the individuals placed in scheduled policy career, is fundamentally about making sure they deliver on the job.
▶ 1:14:54Sen. Van Hollen: So, if a physical scientist provides a factual assessment to the folks at the omb and the political folks don't like the assessment, that person will be able to be fired, right? You are making them at will as opposed to having any merit-based protections? Is that what you are doing? 7 Mr.
▶ 1:15:18Sen. Van Hollen: Duncan: the goal is to make sure that the individuals implicated are delivering the highest levels service for the american people.
▶ 1:15:27Sen. Van Hollen: I see here you've got a toxicologist, a physical scientist. I would say to our colleagues that you're going down a dangerous road by taking these positions that have been merit-based career positions and turning them into political positions subject to politicization in these positions. It is a very bad idea and I hope you reconsider. Thank you. Mr. chair?
▶ 1:15:58Chair: Thank you.
▶ 1:16:01Senator: Mr. duncan, thank you for your willingness to serve the country. Want to talk to you briefly first about the proposed uniform guidance reforms. These reforms are intended to say the taxpayer money and make the government operate more effectively, more efficiently, keep the government focused on what it is supposed to be doing rather than opening the door to waste, fraud, abuse, and other problems, including violations
▶ 1:16:33Senator: Of federal law. From your perspective, how would these proposed uniform guidance reforms help to improve the government possibility to accomplish these goals? Safeguard taxpayer funds while simultaneously holding responsible any grantees that fail to comply with these requirements? Absolutely appreciate the question, senator.
▶ 1:17:02Senator: Cfr updates are all about accountability and ensuring that these outrageous spendings we have seen in the past are not going out the door by adding an additional layer of accountability and having political appointees, someone directly responsible and accountable to the president saying -- hey, this is a good use of these funds, we believe this and are asking additional questions before it goes out, or they say no. Additional items we are excited about our making sure that d.e.I.
▶ 1:17:30Senator: Practices are not being funded by grants and making sure that you illegal immigration isn't funded by grants. We saw that in the last administration. Making sure that radical gender ideologies are not being funded by grants. Putting additional controls and to ensure that fraud is not committed and if identified is sent to a prosecuting authority. One thing we are also really excited about is the e-verify requirement for grant recipients.
▶ 1:17:58Senator: We think it's fundamental that someone receiving taxpayer dollars from the federal government through grants is hiring folks authorized to work year. It does it for the prine and sub recipients. In addition to other things we are doing in the guidance, we think that this will help us to wrap our arms around the trillion dollar grant enterprise.
▶ 1:18:22Senator: Speaking of political appointees, you work asked questions about whether -- that political appointees are somehow a bad thing. The process is set up to be political, is it not? The word itself refers to a sort of other people by the people for the people, does it not?
▶ 1:18:39Mr. Duncan: Absolutely. They are directly accountable to the president per article to the president per article two vested in the executive authority to the election by the people.
▶ 1:18:48Sen. Lee: So, we elected president and the suggestion is that to have a political appointee is somehow problematic. And yet the alternative is basically that deep state. The sort of permanent career civil servant class. People who are more or less insulated from the political process for when they rail against political appointees.
▶ 1:19:14Sen. Lee: When they do that they are railing against accountability to the voter, because the president is elected by the people and is expected to do the job the people hired the president to do. Now, in the end, I suspect that these reforms when implemented will be very helpful. On a different topic, in the last congress I introduced, and again in this congress, some reforms under the title of the america first act.
▶ 1:19:44Sen. Lee: It aims to make sure that we turn off at least one of the sources of attraction, one of the things that bring people here illegally and keep them here illegally. It would ensure that only U.S. citizens, and also lawful permanent residence, can participate in a whole host of federal benefits designed to help americans. Not illegal aliens.
▶ 1:20:14Sen. Lee: Medicaid, snap, housing benefits, education benefits, and a handful of other programs. Mr. duncan, I guess my question for you is -- should the opportunity arise, as I hope it does, for us to do another round of reconciliation this year, will you commit to working with republicans in congress to help us enact these new restrictions?
▶ 1:20:40Mr. Duncan: Absolutely and I think we made a down payment on some of those restrictions in the working families tax cap act , making sure that these services that are attended -- intended for american citizens in fact go to american citizens.
▶ 1:20:54Sen. Lee: These things are paid for by the american people and our benefits created for the american people. When we ease up on restrictions, we make it too easy for those who are not citizens, particularly those who came here illegally or remain here illegally, we encourage more of that same thing to happen.
▶ 1:21:19Sen. Lee: In turn that makes it far more difficult for us to provide these benefits for those whom they were created. Namely, american citizens. Thank you very much, Mr. duncan, Mr. chairman.
▶ 1:21:35Chair: Follow-up questions?
▶ 1:21:37Senator: You mentioned that president ford in 1975 during a pocket rescission, are you aware of others up to the current administration?
▶ 1:21:51Mr. Duncan: Not at the top of my head.
▶ 1:21:55Senator: After that decision occurred you had several supreme court decisions, one of which made it very clear that in general any impoundment is. And then in 1983 you had a 1983 decision that set both houses have to vote affirmatively on the rescission. That's in the act. We have -- report -- reforming what the act said.
▶ 1:22:26Senator: And then in clinton versus new york they rolled out the line item veto, essentially rescission hypocrisy. That's why it's never happened since ford. I just wanted to note that that foundation in law, the ford example doesn't at all address the legitimacy or illegitimacy.
▶ 1:22:49Senator: The law still says that any rescission must be done and signed by both houses of congress or must be passed by both houses of congress. I was also very concerned that the budget submitted for the last year didn't have any deficit or debt projections. The law actually requires the budget the president submits to have deficit and debt information. Will you push to make sure that deficit and debt information is in the next submission to congress?
▶ 1:23:18Mr. Duncan: Appreciate the question. As the director testified when he was out here discussing the budget, the budget for fy 27 was discretionary. We wanted to help kick off
▶ 1:23:33Sen. Merkley: I understand. Will you were to follow the law in the next submission to congress? >> certainly. We will release additional projections of that sort like we did last year, and they will come this summer.
▶ 1:23:48Sen. Merkley: When the director testified he said he didn't follow the law because he didn't want to confuse the american public. Two problems of that. It implies the american public are idiots. They are not idiots, deficit and debt are a big problem for the united states of america and second of all, he is not authorized to break the law and if you work for him as the deputy I hope you will raise a red flag if he seeks to do this again by not putting deficit and debt in.
▶ 1:24:17Sen. Merkley: I raise another issue, the shutdown of programs authorizing that funding. Right now there is a program called the ocean observatories initiative that has 900 sensors in the ocean. The administration announced it was going to take out four of the five arrays of these ocean sensors that measure the current, direction, temperature, photo plankton, acidity, salinity, and so forth.
▶ 1:24:46Sen. Merkley: Which are pretty much important information about the oceans. Congress has not asked of these to be taken out. They have not asked the program to be shut down. And there is a law on the books that says that to undo a program over 2.5 million in justice and science, there has to be, even if it is just being
▶ 1:25:18Sen. Merkley: Decommissioned, it has to have a 30 day notice to congress. Are you familiar with whether any such notice was given?
▶ 1:25:27Mr. Duncan: I'm not familiar to the program in question. I would quickly note the director vote when he was up here testifying, not including but was mandatory, but he said was in the context of another reconciliation bill coming down the pike, so I wanted to contest the characterization of how it was framed in terms of what he was discussing when he put forward that assertion of the mandatory budget.
▶ 1:25:55Sen. Merkley: You mean the assertion about not confusing the public?
▶ 1:25:59Mr. Duncan: Sen. merkley: yes, sir. I understand why you would want to defend the director. I did not find wanting to not confuse the country as a legitimate reason to hide the deficit and debt. I really hope, because democrats and republicans have waited and said don't dismantle the ocean array, it's authorized, funded, the law requires notice to congress.
▶ 1:26:29Mr. Duncan: It just, it's, well from every scientist we can talk to, it would be sheer stupidity to pull out in array the costs hundreds of millions, the information has been useful in 500 studies and it is an example of what I'm talking about of the administration trying to respect the separation of powers. Congress says take it out, fine. They do that by law.
▶ 1:26:56Mr. Duncan: When it is authorized and funded in the administration says we don't like it, so we will rip it out, that's not ok. My final point. I want to emphasize that the actions that have been taken in which grants are awarded preferentially to states that have either state leadership or federal elected leadership that is red rather than blue, that's not acceptable.
▶ 1:27:20Mr. Duncan: Will you pledge to keep the sense of not having grant allocations contaminated by partisan undertakings or influences?
▶ 1:27:33Mr. Duncan: Certainly commit to ensuring the grants are spent in accordance with the law fundamentally with presidential priorities.
▶ 1:27:44Senator: That didn't answer my question. Will you commit to keeping partisan influence out?
▶ 1:27:52Mr. Duncan: Obviously the people elected the president, as we discussed last night. There was given discretion within the boundaries of statutes to award grants based off of his policy views. So, we will certainly commit to abiding by the law and effectuating that agenda.
▶ 1:28:12Sen. Merkley: I have to wrap this up.
▶ 1:28:16Chair: Yes, you do. [laughter] [indiscernible] [inaudible] [static]
▶ 1:28:32Chair: Thank you, senator merkley. I do hope that you will enact the presidential priority regardless of the state. And you have a chance to act budgets and grants based on the priorities of this president and I hope you will take the advantage of that. As other presidents have. That is what elections are all about, senator. I want to thank Mr.
▶ 1:28:56Chair: Duncan were appearing before the committee and the hearing statement time will remain open through tomorrow to the committee clerk. Well done, Mr. duncan. The hearing is adjourned. We did it. [chuckles]