▶ 0:14:56Chair Cassidy: The senate committee on health, education, labor, and pensions will come to order. Mr. sonderling, thank you for your willingness to serve, again, the american people, this time as secretary of labor. Mr. sonderling currently serves as the act inc. Secretary at the department of labor, as well as sub-agencies, guiding policymaking, regulation, and enforcement of labor laws. It was confirmed as deputy secretary of labor last year.
▶ 0:15:25Chair Cassidy: Based on his extensive experience in labor and employment policy and as a public servant it is clear he is qualified. When president trump nominated Mr. sonderling as eeoc commissioner senate confirmed him with bipartisan support. As commissioner he has worked in a nonpartisan manner to address illegal workplace discrimination and enforce laws as congress intended. While with the wage and hour division Mr.
▶ 0:15:53Chair Cassidy: Sonderling developed president trump's independent contractor policy, which empowered workers to earn a living in a manner in which they chose. He has continued to push for the americans' ability to work as independent contractors at eol, championing policies that provide regulatory -- as to what constitutes an independent contractor. He has also clarified the joint employer standard that employs over 9 million americans. The workforce is changing.
▶ 0:16:24Chair Cassidy: It will continue to change as technology advances. As secretary I'm confident he will protect workers, help is this is create more jobs, and help workers navigate a I-driven changes in the workforce. The apprenticeship model offers a solution, but the current system is too burdensome and inconsistent state laws confuse workers and businesses alike. We must simple file registration process to make it faster and easier for employers.
▶ 0:16:51Chair Cassidy: Senator banks and I introduce the start acts or industries unfamiliar with the apprenticeships will be able to easily participate. We must also broaden our retirement system, empowering workers to increase their opportunities to build financial security after finishing their career. Mr. sonderling is already protecting americans' retirement.
▶ 0:17:12Chair Cassidy: The department of labor ended biden's pattern of seeking frivolous investigations and the large employers for political purposes, ensuring their work was focused on protecting workers savings, not chasing headlines. Americans who are saving for retirement should have access to the same variety of lucrative investments as other investors, such as union and government plans. I'm glad the agency proposed a rule clarifying how retirement plans can safely invest in alternative assets.
▶ 0:17:43Chair Cassidy: I'm also glad to see Mr. sonderling cracking down on unemployment insurance fraud. Lacks controls on unemployment insurance systems place money in the hands of criminals instead of americans trying to find a job and to provide for their families. That is why I end this committee conducted oversight of states with egregious improper payment rates. I commend Mr. sonderling for demanding immediate action from states and territories so americans tax dollars will be safeguarded. Thank you for appearing before the committee.
▶ 0:18:12Chair Cassidy: I look forward to hearing about how you plan to protect workers and create economic growth nationwide and with that I recognize senator murray.
▶ 0:18:22Sen. Murray: Thank you, chair cassidy. I'm going to be straight where I stand here. The department of labor has a straightforward mission. It is right there in the name. It is not called the department of big business and billionaires it is called the department of labor. Dol exists to protect the people who do the work in this country. It exists to make sure an honest days work means a fair wage. Safe workplace, and a voice on the job.
▶ 0:18:50Sen. Murray: That mission is more important than ever, since this president and congress decided that their policy priorities would be trillions in deficit-busting tax cuts for billionaires and dry -- giant corporations and starting new wars in the middle east. That agenda has worked for the very richest and defense contractors. Elon musk became a trillionaire. But the basics -- groceries, health care, gas, all of that has gotten more and more expensive for regular working people.
▶ 0:19:20Sen. Murray: All while millions of americans lose their health care, inflation is sky high and there is no end in sight to trump's costly war. That is the state of our economy for working families thanks to this president. That is the reality for everyone who does not get a tax write off for a private jet. Now you are here asking this committee for promotion, since your predecessor apparently created such a hostile and scandal-plague work environment she was pushed out. Let's be clear.
▶ 0:19:48Sen. Murray: You are not a bystander to this administration's anti-worker policies and agenda. You were confirmed as deputy secretary in march of last year. You have run it as acting secretary since april. I just talked about the harm this republican majority has done to our economy, and you have built your own anti-worker record at dol.
▶ 0:20:11Sen. Murray: You rescinded the overtime rule in may, slamming the door on time and a half pay for more than 4 million workers who already are not making much to begin with. At the same time you are working to rescind the independent contractor rule. You want to let giant corporations classify workers as contractors so they don't have to pay the minimal wage in overtime. A conservative estimate finds this rule would rob workers of oui $.7 billion a year. That is an outright drift.
▶ 0:20:43Sen. Murray: You are also pushing a joint employer rule to let giant corporations take advantage of employment structures so they are not liable when people like janitors or nurses get a paycheck stolen. Or when there are child labor violations or other worker right violations. Here is what every worker watching needs to understand. This department treats its own employees exactly the way it is leading the worst employees treat theirs. For example, trump's department of labor, fired.
▶ 0:21:13Sen. Murray: And percent of the office that work to protect workers from discrimination by federal contractors since 1965. And when they did that they ignored the four months notice its own union contract required. The department of labor violating a labor contract. You cannot make that up. Then this department of labor stood by while this administration stripped collective bargaining rights from more than one million federal workers.
▶ 0:21:42Sen. Murray: And you actually helped this administration pressure the federal agency that helps protect our civil servants. When the bureau of labor statistics did its job and reported honest employment numbers the president did not like its commissioner was fired, with no cause. Who should coworkers call when this administration has done nothing short of outright hostile towards workers in its policies and its own employees?
▶ 0:22:09Sen. Murray: I don't have the time to get into how you have undercut this agency's capacity to crackdown on wage theft, child labor violations, but needless to say it will not be easy to rebuild what has been broken. Finally, I have to raise something I never imagined addressing at a hearing for secretary of labor. In january this department's official account posted a video captioned "one homeland. One people. One heritage.
▶ 0:22:39Sen. Murray: Remember who you are, american." historians recognize the echo of the nazis. Nobody had to squint to make that connection. Union leaders condemned that. Your own career employees called it disturbing. That was not a one-off. It has been a pattern. Under your leadership this department posts constant propaganda about americanism. You make misleading comments about nativeborn workers.
▶ 0:23:07Sen. Murray: It is so apparent this department is posting this kind of garbage as a wink and nod to extremists and to get a rise out of everyone else was paying attention. But you need to hear it from somebody. This kind of language and imagery is a disgrace. Mr. sonderling, frances perkins, the woman we can think for the minimum wage, for the 40 hour workweek, for social security this department to stop employers with records like yours. So, I will close with this.
▶ 0:23:38Sen. Murray: The 4 million workers whose overtime you shut the door on did not get a vote on that policy, but I have a vote in the senate and I fear any vote to confirm you is for more the same. District overtime protections for workers, undercut our unions, and let china corporations get away with robbery -- literally. America does need a labor secretary who understands our workers, who should not be denied overtime pay, or who will prosecute wage theft and child labor violations.
▶ 0:24:09Sen. Murray: Who believes we should increase the minimum wage. Who understands america is way overdue for a national paid leave program and who will understand -- stand up every minute for americans' right to form a union. That is where I stand.
▶ 0:24:23Chair Cassidy: We are joined today by keith sonderling, nominee for secretary of the department of labor. He is currently the acting sec. Of labor and was confirmed as deputy secretary of labor last year. He will be introduced by senator rick scott and senator ashley moody of florida. With that, I yield to senator moody.
▶ 0:24:45Sen. Moody: I was going to defer to my senior senator to go first.
▶ 0:24:52Sen. Scott: Thank.
▶ 0:24:55Sen. Moody: If you have less hair you get to go first. [laughter]
▶ 0:25:00Sen. Scott: First of all, thank you. It is an honor to be here in front of this important committee. It is an honor to introduce a friend of mine. A little over a year ago this committee voted to advance keith sonderling to be deputy secretary of labor. At that time I expressed my utmost confidence in keith.
▶ 0:25:24Sen. Scott: The results speak for themselves and he is qualified to be the next secretary of labor. Keith has proven time and again his deep respect for the rule of law and standing up for the american worker. His commitment to making america the best place to get a job. I was honored to appoint chief -- a keith when I was governor.
▶ 0:25:48Sen. Scott: To serve on florida's most important pellet benches -- important pellet benches. During president trump's first term he served at the department of labor. Keith's exceptional work ethic later led president trump to nominate him to serve as the commissioner of the equal employment opportunity commission.
▶ 0:26:13Sen. Scott: There keith worked to protect every american who came before the commission from dennis -- from discrimination in the workplace. He has served faithfully, wisely manage a $14 million budget, and protected the american worker. During this transitional period he embraced the role confidently, providing stability and steady leadership. He has gone above and beyond to reach out to americans and provide them with guidance to navigate our country labor laws.
▶ 0:26:42Sen. Scott: As long as I have known him keith has served the hard-working people of florida in this country with distinction and there is no one I know who is more qualified to be the next secretary of labor. I urge the members of this committee to favorably report him so we can swiftly confirm him. Thank you, Mr. chairman, ranking member, and good luck.
▶ 0:27:01Chair Cassidy: Senator moody.
▶ 0:27:03Sen. Moody: Thank you for being here, senator scott. It is my great honor to introduce one of florida's own -- not just a florida citizen in one of my constituents, but university of florida gator. Coach gets upset when I do that, but we are going to do it anyway. Lukey alumnae. I'm told, Mr.
▶ 0:27:31Sen. Moody: Chairman, that there is a slew of florida gators in the audience. Can you stand up so I can see you? A be a little gator chomp for the pictures?
▶ 0:27:42Chair Cassidy: The committee will be adjourned. [laughter]
▶ 0:27:45Sen. Moody: He always tries to hold me in contempt, but I was a judge. >> I am an lsu tigers fan.
▶ 0:27:53Sen. Moody: I have known keith and I can say he is more than qualified to be secretary of labor. Under his leadership the department is putting american workers and american industry first. He has been aggressively pursuing workforce development and pro-growth regulatory reforms. He has collaborated with agencies to break the fraud economy across the nation and cut down on wasteful spending. He has helped ensure our job numbers continue to be expectations.
▶ 0:28:19Sen. Moody: I have to personally say I had to litigate against the last administration who tried to overrule our policymakers, our people, and some of our laws. As attorney general I can say without a doubt he came in, understood our concerns, got right to work to determine what was best for florida and respecting our legislatures on behalf of the people's ability to determine what is best for our state and citizens.
▶ 0:28:47Sen. Moody: I'm confident he is the leader the department of labor needs. I want to thank his parents for being here today. I can honestly say I have watched him in his prior roles. He is the type of individual who does not seek fanfare. He puts his head down and does the work. And I have often found over the course of my career when I'm talking to others, opportunity often follows.
▶ 0:29:14Sen. Moody: I think this is a great example of that. Our state is proud of you. Our university is proud of you. I know those in the audience are here with you to support you and are proud of you and I know your approach to this position is informed by many things. Not just your education, but your family relationships and hearing some of the comments and introduction. I know both of your grandparents were holocaust survivors. That inspires you in your work on behalf of workers.
▶ 0:29:44Sen. Moody: I hope you will elaborate on that for the information and consideration of all of my colleagues here today. Thank you, good luck, I support you fully. I encourage my colleagues to do the same and I would be remiss if I did not conclude by saying, go, gators. Thank you, Mr. chairman.
▶ 0:30:01Chair Cassidy: With that, we will begin question. I will defer to senator collins first. Sorry. I just texted my staff for a cup of real coffee. Now you understand why. Mr. sonderling, your opening statement.
▶ 0:30:22Mr. Sonderling: Thank you for that introduction. Chairman cassidy, senator murray , it is an honor to appear before you. For the third time. This time of president trump's nominee for secretary of labor. Every member of this committee can agree on one thing. American workers are the best in the world. And they deserve a labor department that is effective, accountable, and responsive to their needs.
▶ 0:30:50Mr. Sonderling: Serving the american people at the department of labor has been the greatest honor of my life. It would not have been possible without president trump's vision and leadership. I am grateful for the trust he has placed in me and for the opportunity to serve american workers, retirees, unions, and job creators.
▶ 0:31:11Mr. Sonderling: Above all, I want to thank my family, my wife, our two boys, and my parents, howard and barbara. Before public service I practice labor employment law in florida. I saw firsthand how the departments policies impact workers and businesses. I then joined president trump administration in 2017 as a senior policy advisor at the department of labor.
▶ 0:31:38Mr. Sonderling: There I learned the mission from the ground up, benefiting every day from the knowledge, experience, and dedication of my colleagues. Over time I was entrusted with increasing responsibility, eventually leading one of the department's largest enforcement agencies. President trump later nominated me as a commissioner of the equal employment opportunity commission, where I served until 2024.
▶ 0:32:02Mr. Sonderling: I also taught the laws the department enforces as an adjunct professor at the george washington university law school. I then led president trump's transition team before the -- returning to the department on inauguration day. Few people have had the opportunity to experience the department from so many different perspectives.
▶ 0:32:20Mr. Sonderling: From the outside in private practice, as a policy advisor, as an agency head, as an adjunct professor, as deputy secretary, as acting secretary, and now as the nominee for labor secretary. These experiences have prepared me to lead this department at a deep understanding of its mission, its people, and, most importantly, the americans we serve. The story of the american worker is the story of america itself.
▶ 0:32:51Mr. Sonderling: As we celebrate 250 years of american independence, we honor the men and women who built our nation. And thanks to president trump's leadership the american worker is once again the center of the nation's economic agenda. Since president trump took office more than 900,000 private-sector jobs have been created. Wages are rising. 401(k)s have reached record highs and more americans are working today than in any time in our nations history.
▶ 0:33:23Mr. Sonderling: President trump promised to re-industrialize america and transform our economy. Now trillions of dollars in new investments are revitalizing manufacturing, rebuilding our infrastructure, expanding domestic energy production, increasing worship tilting passing and positioning the united states to lead in biotechnology, ai, and quantum computing. The working families tax cuts are delivering for family -- american workers. Putting thousands of dollars back into the pockets of the hard-working americans who keep this country running.
▶ 0:33:55Mr. Sonderling: As promised, president trump's progrowth agenda is creating unprecedented opportunities for american workers through manufacturing expansion and business investment. My responsibility is to ensure the american workforce has the skills to seize the opportunities while protecting their safety, while protecting their wages, and while protecting their retirement benefits.
▶ 0:34:17Mr. Sonderling: Under president trump leadership we are restoring compliance, rulemaking that replaces uncertainty with clarity, expanding retirement investment opportunities, promoting competition, and prescription drug pricing, and helping more americans start families. As a member of the white house task force to eliminate fraud I have worked directly with vice president vance to eliminate waste, fraud, and abuse, ensuring that taxpayer dollars serve americans and not fraudsters.
▶ 0:34:47Mr. Sonderling: President trump has always understood the american people are the foundation of strength and prosperity, and thanks to president trump the world once again knows that the american worker is our greatest competitive advantage. I am grateful for the trust the president has placed in me and the opportunity to help fulfill his promise to all americans.
▶ 0:35:09Mr. Sonderling: You have my commitment that I will continue working every day to faithfully carry out the mission that has guided my service at the department since my first day nearly a decade ago. Thank you, and I look forward to your questions.
▶ 0:35:23Chair Cassidy: Thank you. I will defer to senator collins to open questioning.
▶ 0:35:27Sen. Collins: Thank you. Thank you very much, Mr. chairman. Mr. secretary, welcome. Senator -- senator kaine and I have introduced the religious workforce protection act to allow foreign-born religious workers in the united states continue to perform their essential work in communities across our nation. Our bill is narrow.
▶ 0:35:57Sen. Collins: It would allow the extension of temporary r1 status for workers until he or she receives a decision on the permanent visa application.
▶ 0:36:18Sen. Collins: Unfortunately, under an interpretation -- and I realize this is by the state department -- in 2023, many religious workers have two leave our country and the communities they serve for at least one year before returning to their spiritual service. In main local communities face challenges because of this policy.
▶ 0:36:43Sen. Collins: Of the 50 catholic parishes in maine 35 benefit from the ministry of priests from other countries. Recently three catholic parishes in rural maine communities were left without any priests for months. Many different faith organizations have endorsed our legislation, including the U.S.
▶ 0:37:12Sen. Collins: Conference of catholic bishops, rabbinical council of america, and the national association of evangelicals. Important, our bill does not allow entry for any person who is not already permitted under the law to enter the united states.
▶ 0:37:33Sen. Collins: Under your leadership, with the department of labor's support this much-needed, targeted change in policy.
▶ 0:37:42Mr. Sonderling: Thank you for the question, and obviously religious workers are workers too, and you have my full commitment and I understand there is a shortage in some of the workforce when it also comes to religious workers, so we will help you and I will work personally with secretary rubio and secretary mullin to make sure you have the proper technical assistance so we can help this very important group come and stay in the united states.
▶ 0:38:07Sen. Collins: Thank you very much. You have previously shared with the committee that your parents survived the holocaust, as senator moody mentioned. But you have also told us that they later lost out on employment opportunities based solely on their religious beliefs.
▶ 0:38:33Sen. Collins: What role do you think the department of labor should take in protecting american workers against religious discrimination?
▶ 0:38:40Mr. Sonderling: It is a very important role for the federal government to play, to protect workers and religions of all faith. We have been doing that significantly. We set up a center for faith that the department of labor, where the first time we made a website with all 50 states and you can click on your state and see what your religious protections are, to see if you are discriminated in the workplace where you can get the resources.
▶ 0:39:07Mr. Sonderling: My family's personal story, as you heard, both of my grandparents were holocaust survivors. They came over here before some of these laws were in place and they were discriminated based upon that and were not given employment opportunities others were solely based upon their religion and unfortunately we still see that today and that is a very important role that we have in this administration, to root out all religious bias, including anti-semitism. The equal employment opportunity commission continues to bring those cases.
▶ 0:39:41Mr. Sonderling: We put up more guidance for religious workers. Also it is religious experiment -- discrimination if religious services cannot get the same services other organizations could get. We have reversed some of the policies from the biden administration that discourage that and funding agreements that cooperate make sure that religious organizations know they are going to be on equal footing to other types of organizations even though they are religious organizations, to participate in federal government programs. Is very important to me, it is very important to the president.
▶ 0:40:08Mr. Sonderling: Issued executive orders on anti-christian bias and religious discrimination as a whole, and we will prosecute those cases as equally as we will any other case.
▶ 0:40:17Sen. Collins: Thank you. Finally -- and I'm almost out of time -- I have numerous disputes with your predecessor over job corps. Job corps has been an enormously successful program.
▶ 0:40:35Sen. Collins: That has truly changed the lives of students from disadvantaged backgrounds, even them the skills, the sense of belonging, the confidence that they need to be successful. And, as you know, under your predecessor the two job core centers in maine, they were forced to pause their enrollment. They now have ray -- restarted, and they have truly been so successful.
▶ 0:41:04Sen. Collins: That I have wanted to submit my question for the record. I just want you to be aware of the bill that senator jack reed and I introduced. That would provide greater alignment between the jobs that are available in the defense industry and the skills that job corps is teaching.
▶ 0:41:29Sen. Collins: It ensures automatic -- automatic employment for job core graduates who can choose to go into the workforce, military, or continue with the higher education.
▶ 0:41:42Mr. Sonderling: We talked about this at the budget hearing. I think you and I are going to go to a job corps center in maine in august. I look forward to working with you.
▶ 0:41:51Sen. Collins: Thank you, Mr. chairman. >> statement with seven seconds left and then goes a minute over.
▶ 0:41:58Sen. Collins: I apologize, I really do.
▶ 0:42:01Chair Cassidy: Senator murray.
▶ 0:42:03Sen. Murray: Acting secretary, you're working with secretary mcmahon to take over the department of education programs to help trump abolish that department. It makes zero sense that dol, an agency's expertise is in supporting wage earners and jobseekers, that it is being tasked with taking over complex education programs from the department of education to help kindergartners and elementary school students.
▶ 0:42:31Sen. Murray: Do you know how many programs at the department of labor are focused on elementary school students?
▶ 0:42:36Mr. Sonderling: I can tell you it makes a lot of sense for us to work with the department of education.
▶ 0:42:42Sen. Collins: I asked you a specific question that I have very little time. Do you know how many programs?
▶ 0:42:48Mr. Sonderling: We have our agreements that ask us to --
▶ 0:42:51Sen. Murray: I will tell you. The answer is none. None of them. That is concerning, because while some offices within your department are taking on a set of responsibilities, they have no experience dealing with, they are also struggling to manage their own grant programs. As recently as this last january report from the dol inspector general noted the employment and training administration is "challenged in effectively managing its grand portfolio. So, acting sec.
▶ 0:43:21Sen. Murray: Sanderling, do you believe it is smart management decision to add more grant responsibilities to an agency that is consistently unable to handle those tasks?
▶ 0:43:30Mr. Sonderling: Heading makes a lot of sense. Our systems at the department of labor are more sophisticated. Based on prior reports and implementing those recommendations than the department of education system. They are on a legacy system. Use grant solution, which is the same solution distributed from the education side and the labor side to the states and from an efficiency standpoint they are used to having to go to education and labor.
▶ 0:44:01Mr. Sonderling: It is dealing with providing the department of education with service and I can tell you that the department of education career staff have been detailed to the department of labor and they are making those policy decisions regarding the pre-k-12 program, regarding those other decisions where the department of labor is assisting them in the grand systems, working with states and the states love this. 21 states have now submitted a joint plan for efficiency -- getting that. Important money to institutions.
▶ 0:44:28Sen. Murray: Let me just say, I appreciate smart new reforms, but the facts are that these arrangements have been her wasteful. One of them cost taxpayers an extra $1 million. The administration has refused to tell us for months how much they cost her or anything else. Despite bipartisan demands for that information. It is not working.
▶ 0:44:51Sen. Murray: In one case ed transferred responsibilities to you only to have to send that back to another department because dol lacked the expertise.
▶ 0:45:01Mr. Sonderling: On july 1 at midnight one point $5 billion came over to the department of labor. He was up by 2:00 in the morning. The money went out to the states in our updated system in the department of labor will continue to provide those services which are lawful under the economy sacked and also is most efficient for taxpayers in the states getting these moneys.
▶ 0:45:22Sen. Murray: I will just say again, I have to tell you americans want an agency that is focused on the education of early learners all the way through. They don't want it shuffled off to another department they cannot find the information or don't have the expertise to do it. That is my opinion. Let me move on here. The labor department founding mission is to promote the welfare of wage earners.
▶ 0:45:46Sen. Murray: You have run this department for three months and in that time you have formalized taking over time away from 4 million people, moved to cut care workers' minimum wage, t up longer hours for 14-year-olds, and defended a budget that leaves workers in the dust. Let me ask you a very specific question. On july 2 of last year dol proposed a new rule about wages and overtime pay for home care workers.
▶ 0:46:12Sen. Murray: If this draft ruling is finalized how many workers will be stripped of minimum wage and overtime protections?
▶ 0:46:18Mr. Sonderling: This is a very complicated issue we have worked on for a long time and the current rule, you know, has essentially created a secondary market where workers are not getting protections. Those who are coming you know, receiving the services, are not going to companies to get the proper background checks, so this rule will allow third parties to come back in to properly manage the payroll, to manage their ability to do background checks and have more workers and continuity of care.
▶ 0:46:47Mr. Sonderling: With the prior rule did was, people were not getting overtime. They would get a different person --
▶ 0:46:52Sen. Murray: Amount of time and I'm going to correct the record here, because if this draft rule is finalized, which is what my question was tio, it is we .7 million workers, home care workers who will be stripped of minimum wage and overtime protections. That is how many home care workers the department is ripping away minimum wage and overtime protections from. Mr. chairman, to me that his anti-worker. Thank you.
▶ 0:47:18Chair Cassidy: I will defer to senator marshall.
▶ 0:47:23Sen. Marshall: I want to start welcoming sec. Sanderling -- s onde I want to talk aboutr one of the greatest per worker agendas we have seen accomplished over the last two years, the working familiesling. Private-sector job growth. 600,000 private-sector job growth because of the president's tariff policies.
▶ 0:47:54Sen. Marshall: We are bringing jobs back home and manufacturing is great again. One of the big pro worker agenda I have seen is an emphasis on apprenticeship and workforce pell grant. Maybe speak a moment -- did I miss anything?
▶ 0:48:07Mr. Sonderling: We did. The working family tax cuts passed by the senate has done so much for the american workers. Most people on tv here no tax on tips, no tax on overtime's, which is great, but there are so many an official provisions to workers. Ones of how we create more jobs. 100% deduction on new equipment is allowing companies to buy new state-of-the-art equipped and. -- equipment.
▶ 0:48:38Mr. Sonderling: Freeing up money there would be paying taxes to hire more workers to give more overtime in addition to the depreciation on expanding american manufacturing. No interest on the loans on the cars bought in america. So, many great things on the business side. For workers you hit the nail on the head when it comes to workforce.
▶ 0:48:57Sen. Marshall: Something else a big priority for you and me are tech colleges, community colleges, and the flexibility in the pell grant's. Speak about the priority and what the future looks like.
▶ 0:49:09Mr. Sonderling: And being able to use 529 accounts for registered apprenticeships that otherwise relocked up in four-year degrees. That is going to allow certificate programs where we know there is a lot of jobs and that is cost prohibitive for employees because they cannot afford those certificates. Ultimately it leads into where the department wants to go to fill all of these jobs that president trump has created through registered apprenticeships.
▶ 0:49:37Mr. Sonderling: Getting people out of hospital, into a high skilled registered apprenticeships, working with community colleges. And we see community colleges is one of this puzzle, to help small businesses design the curriculum to get workers right out of high school into the trades and have them design those courses. Thanks to the working families tax cuts we have seen so many benefits continue to benefit the american worker. Not just putting more money in their pocket, but also creating opportunities that didn't exist before.
▶ 0:50:07Sen. Marshall: If senator moody can boris with her gator chomp, I want to give a go grizzly sign for her -- from my alma mater, butler community college, that my wife and I graduated from. We don't have a chomp or anything, but, go, grizzlies. I have a one-off issue I promised I would run by you. I have not brought this to your attention.
▶ 0:50:33Sen. Marshall: You are welcome to follow-up, but retirement plans lose track of their people sometimes, and a person is 65, their retirement plan cannot find the person. Some were four or five years ago we decided the state should figure this out and there was a rule drafted in 2023 that was never finished. And unfortunately they had a lower cap of $1000, which is artificially low.
▶ 0:50:59Sen. Marshall: I'm asking you to commit to finishing the rules surrounding this, hopefully with so states can start working on getting money back.
▶ 0:51:06Mr. Sonderling: This is an important issue because you are talking about retirees who have invested in 401(k)s, but forgot they had it. May be $2 trillion invested in retirees who are not able to find where their 401(k)s are. The department is really looking at this, looking at ways to work with employers come to us. We have a lost and found website where somebody can type in their employer and see if they had a 401(k) there. That takes the employer giving us that information.
▶ 0:51:35Mr. Sonderling: That takes working with the plan sponsors and saying, give us your roles of who you are --
▶ 0:51:41Sen. Marshall: Will you commit to finishing the rule?
▶ 0:51:42Mr. Sonderling: I will, but the most important thing is we need businesses to have a safe harbor.
▶ 0:51:48Sen. Marshall: I have 30 seconds I want to touch aesop's franchises and unions. Ok? I don't know. Any thoughts? We want republicans are trying so hard to be pro-union. I was raised in a union town. Just speak what you can do to help union workers back home. What is your vision to help those folks out?
▶ 0:52:10Mr. Sonderling: Union workers are american workers, so we continue to make policies, to make sure that other industries are also getting into registered apprenticeships. I have talked to all of the union leaders, seeing what they do to see how many people they get in the trades. And trying to take that model and work with other industries and they are very open to working together because they want the american workforce to succeed. They wanted to be with american workers and all of the new jobs the president has created.
▶ 0:52:42Mr. Sonderling: We are all going to work together to put the american worker first in that equation and I see both support from unions and management.
▶ 0:52:48Sen. Marshall: I don't have time to ask you about aesop's and franchises, but we will have those conversations too.
▶ 0:52:55Chair Cassidy: Senator kaine.
▶ 0:52:58Sen. Kaine: Mr. chair, thank you. Mr. sonderling, congratulations to the committee. I don't wanted to go unnoticed that the older americans act reauthorization past the senate floor couple of days ago. We worked on it a year and a half ago and it got held up at the end of the last congress but it passed out of the senate a couple of days ago. We all worked hard on that. Hopefully the house will act.
▶ 0:53:23Sen. Kaine: Stress underling, your testimony is, as I would expect, very positive about the state of the economy and the trump administration's accomplishments. People don't like eating told things are great when their lives are telling them otherwise and I have to put on the record a gallup poll in may showed that confidence in the economy is at its lowest in the last five years. And the gallup poll suggests that 76% of american adults think the economy is getting worse. In 20% think it is getting better.
▶ 0:53:53Sen. Kaine: So, I guess it is getting better for 20% or they think it is. But to 12 -- tell three quarters of the american public everything is rosy and going well just does not square. It is a punchline to an old joke. What are you going to believe, me or your own eyes? People's eyes are telling them this economy isn't working, and that was a full in may and I would suggest it has gotten worse since.
▶ 0:54:17Sen. Kaine: Pulling data just came out that says, for example, virginians had paid 1.8 billion dollars more in gasoline since the war in iran began on february 28, and they would have paid, having not started a foolish war and led to the closing of the strait of hormuz. It is not just gas. It is inflation on everyday goods and groceries. That was the data in the gallup poll about why people were feeling better.
▶ 0:54:44Sen. Kaine: I know folks in the administration are duty bound, and I would expect and probably would do the same thing, putting the best face on the evidence, but I just have to say that the american public is feeling really sour about the american economy. I noticed yesterday that president -- the present restorative -- started tariff imposition. It is like the fact that priscilla's prosecuting a friend of his.
▶ 0:55:12Sen. Kaine: As it was a nation where we have trade surplus, not a trade -- the president is wanting to put tariffs on brazilian products when we have a surplus with them. The department of education is entered into 14 interagency agreements and senator murray talk to you about them.
▶ 0:55:31Sen. Kaine: Last year states reported a bunch of funding delays and administrative confusion following the transfer of the technical education services to dol. Months later the department of education decided to move k-12 another higher ed programs to the dol.
▶ 0:55:50Sen. Kaine: The magnitude of these programs -- 9.8 million kids in rural schools, 5 million english-language learners, 1.1 million students who are experiencing homelessness, 600,000 native students, 26 million kids in schools that are title I schools, which are 80% of the school districts in the country. This has been foisted onto the department of labor. That was the president's choice.
▶ 0:56:19Sen. Kaine: As the nominee to be secretary of labor, can you tell me, there are some foundational pillars for the ide a, the individuals with disabilities education act. Do you know what those foundational pillars are?
▶ 0:56:31Mr. Sonderling: I do not. That is a department of education program, but to the extent we have the administration duties to administer that states rely on education staff --
▶ 0:56:45Sen. Kaine: I got you, but let me tell you what the pillars are. This is something that something should be pushed over to dol. The pillars are free, appropriate public education, least-restrictive environment, individualized education plan, appropriate evaluation, parent-student participation, and procedural safeguards. And these are not minor matters to parents who have kids with disabilities. I have a letter, Mr.
▶ 0:57:14Sen. Kaine: Chair, I would like to introduce into the record, and it is signed by individuals who served in nine republican and democratic presidential administrations, including president trump's first term, who are responsible for overseeing the implementation of the idea, saying they do not think it should be moved either -- moved out of the department of education. >> without objection.
▶ 0:57:36Sen. Kaine: Gino the name of the program that funds afterschool programs?
▶ 0:57:42Mr. Sonderling: That is a department of education program. I do not know the specific name, but I would rely on --
▶ 0:57:49Sen. Kaine: The name of the program is the 21st century community learning centers. However expertise in the higher education act, in your previous roles? Had ed -- have you had to focus on higher education?
▶ 0:58:03Mr. Sonderling: We believe higher education and workforce development are linked. There are a lot of studies done that this program should potentially be at the department of labor because ultimately --
▶ 0:58:13Sen. Kaine: In your experience in the past have you done work on higher education?
▶ 0:58:17Mr. Sonderling: I would not, but I would rely on those who have.
▶ 0:58:20Sen. Kaine: That is not a fault of yours. You have done some things and not other things. To take these major programs that affect millions of people and push them over to the dol, I will just say, Mr. chair, I will just make one long sentence. There is a right way to do reform. Come to the committee and say, here's a statue. Let's work on a better way to do it.
▶ 0:58:47Sen. Kaine: The wrong way to do it is treat the doe like it is a furniture store having a discount going out of business door and handed over willy-nilly to agencies that don't have the expertise to do with them. Thank you, I yield back.
▶ 0:59:04Chair Cassidy: I will refer to senator hawley.
▶ 0:59:06Sen. Hawley: Mr. sonderling, thank you. I enjoyed our conversation. Let me start with something you and I talked about last time you were before this committee, which is artificial intelligence and the effect is going to have on the job market. The st. Louis federal reserve issued a report in which they said we may be witnessing the early stages of ai-driven job displacement. 40% of jobs at least worldwide are exposed to ai, so could suffer from ai job displacement.
▶ 0:59:37Sen. Hawley: What do we need to be doing as a government, and what does dol need to be doing now to be getting our workers in the country ready for the impacts of ai, and more importantly, helping them keep their jobs, use whatever artificial intelligence is going to be integrated into the workplace to improve their productivity and their wages? Should we be able to agree here the goal ought to be not to lose jobs? We want to see wages go up. We want to see more opportunities for workers.
▶ 1:00:07Sen. Hawley: How are we going to get there?
▶ 1:00:08Mr. Sonderling: We want to see more jobs than this and there is the potential to do that. The administration is taking this seriously. Both from a competitive perspective, but also a workforce development side. We are working closely with the national science foundation and department of education to develop that ai curriculum that china has and they are teaching them in the second grade and we are not doing that. But how do we actually teach? If you teach someone on ai right now in two months it might be outdated.
▶ 1:00:38Mr. Sonderling: That is the partnership of where we are trying to get that education -- to get that curriculum into the education system we need to be talking to the employers and tech companies -- employers who are buying this and tech companies designing this. That is where the issue has been. Not getting the information from them and not sharing them. That is what I'm trying to solve.
▶ 1:00:59Mr. Sonderling: We are launching the ai action work hub, which is allowing us to enter into mo use with tech developers and companies who are deploying this to see what the real impacts are, to see what these programs are being designed to backtrack into the education system, but more importantly to make sure american workers and students have those baseline skills. Right now you have kids in high school who think they are not going to have a job and employees who think they're going to lose their job.
▶ 1:01:25Mr. Sonderling: The fear is not helping anybody and to be able to get rid of that fear we need to have education. To get that education we need the information from these companies designing it, so we have been able to enter into mo use and we want the bureau of labor statistics to take over, get them that information so they can see if it is job loss, to be there to help them on both sides.
▶ 1:01:46Sen. Hawley: You anticipate what I want to ask you about, which is, is it important? It seems to me important we get all the data we can about ai job impacts in terms of jobs, creating jobs and costing how it is being integrated into the workforce. Senator warner and I had a bill that would do this. What would be even better is if dol would do this on its own accord. You and I talked about steps you are taking. Maybe tell us that for the record.
▶ 1:02:13Sen. Hawley: What are you doing in terms of collecting this information that is vital for us to know what is happening with ai in the workforce?
▶ 1:02:19Mr. Sonderling: We are trying to can -- control the narrative from the doom and gloom out there. It is largely tech companies saying we have these tech products that element a 10,000 workers. How does that make the american worker feel? We don't know these tools can do what they are saying they are trying to do. That is where we are getting this information and what we believe we are going to see is ai impacted jobs can make you more productive, it can make your workplace safer, but we can get that information yet, so we have mo use.
▶ 1:02:52Mr. Sonderling: Part of our ai action plan. We are getting that from fortune 500 companies. We are getting it from unions. And we are going to take that data, have bls look at it, and say here is where the impact is. And more importantly, here is what you need to do to get money to the state workforce agencies to train those workers. The second part, we just issued an rfi last week to have the time study that bls does include ai.
▶ 1:03:19Mr. Sonderling: Now they are going to ask people, how much ai do you use at home, how much ai do you use at work? We are going to get it from the american workers who are being impacted instantly and will be able to see what they're doing.
▶ 1:03:31Sen. Hawley: We need that data to make informed choices and we have a lot of choices to make with regard to ai. One to show your picture related to amazon. It was our friends in amazon. This is what appears to be an amazon employee. She is wearing the amazon logo. She is wearing an amazon hat. She is driving an amazon truck. Yet amazon once the american people to believe in the government to believe they don't have any control over all of this?
▶ 1:03:58Sen. Hawley: That amazon is a simple franchisor, just like mcdonald's? That these are all -- she is independent, the truck drivers independent, this is the most ludicrous farce. Amazon controls all of this. And they're trying to game the system so that they get treated like a local franchisor in springfield, missouri who owns a walker mcdonald's, as his whole life savings tied up in it. Amazon controls all of this. Is my point. I know you are -- working on revising the joint employer rule.
▶ 1:04:28Sen. Hawley: It is vital that the rule not excuse amazon's ridiculous efforts to game the system and prevent people like this from being treated well, getting a good paycheck and getting health care. That is exactly what they're trying to do. They are one of the richest companies in the history of the world and they want to be treated like they were are a small business. They are a monopolist and I urge you to write that rule in such a way that amazon is treated as they should be treated and local small businesses are protected. Thank you, Mr. chairman.
▶ 1:04:58Sen. Hawley: >> thank you, Mr. chair, for this hearing. Welcome, Mr. sonderling. I would like to associate myself with the comment senator hawley said about the joint employment rule. I appreciate his comments. I also just wanted before asking you a couple of questions to just note that the joint economic committee has found that since president trump took office we have lost nearly 100,000 manufacturing jobs. So, the manufacturing sector is not doing ok.
▶ 1:05:28Sen. Hawley: It is losing jobs. What I hear in new hampshire, it is all about terrace. Mirkin's have paid $56 billion more for gasoline, about 470 seven dollars per household since this war of choice started. My constituents are desperately worried about high costs, about every part of life that they absolutely have to be able to pay for. From health care, to rent, to childcare, to gas.
▶ 1:05:57Sen. Hawley: So, just wanted to give you that perspective on the economy from data and what we are hearing from our constituents. Other thing of want to just follow up on briefly is senator kaine's questions about the ide a. As you probably know, as my calling to know I have an adult as someone with disabilities. The idea meant he was able to go to school with his peers in our public school system.
▶ 1:06:21Sen. Hawley: Where he was treated as an individual and people learned how to actually communicate with him and educate him. Took eight teacher who left when ever other kids at the wrong answer, which means mice my son was mean, but smart, took the ida and made it possible for people to realize he could say yes or no and interact with material because he is nonverbal.
▶ 1:06:50Sen. Hawley: For the idea of children like my son were stigmatized, stereotyped, institutionalized. In the point of the idea is to make sure that all children, kids with disabilities, without disabilities, it kind of education where their needs are individually met. While I am a strong supporter of community colleges, kids should have a choice about higher education, occasional education.
▶ 1:07:15Sen. Hawley: The idea gives children with disabilities the same platform the same opportunity as kids without. And it is critically important. The people with expertise in educating our children are running this program, reforming this program as it may need to be. So, I share the concerns here about having idea transferred into the department of labor. Now let me get to my questions.
▶ 1:07:41Sen. Hawley: During her confirmation hearing last year I give you an opportunity to commit that you would follow the law if confirmed as deputy secretary of labor. I was disappointed and concerned by your unwillingness last year to make that commitment. I'm going to give you a chance to answer the question again. If directed by the president to take an action that would break the law, you follow the law or follow the president's directive?
▶ 1:08:03Mr. Sonderling: Like a said last year, the president wouldn't have me do that and I would follow the law. I said last year I would follow the law and --
▶ 1:08:10Sen. Hassan: Well, the first part of your answer is the problem, because there is almost daily evidence now of the president directing people or breaking the law himself. The school onto another question. You were appointed last month by the president to serve as acting director for the office of government ethics.
▶ 1:08:30Sen. Hassan: Its mission is to "prevent financial conflicts of interest and other violations of the ethics rules" throughout the executive branch to help me understand the level of judgment you would bring to the role of secretary, are there any actions that the trump administration has taken in the last year that you have ethical concerns about or see as a financial conflict of interest?
▶ 1:08:51Mr. Sonderling: In my position as the director of the office of government ethics I have taken seriously entire career, when I was at my law firm, when I was at the eoc. This is very important to me. It is an honor the president has
▶ 1:09:06Selected Me Sen. Hassan: -- let's get to the question because I have about a minute are there any acts the trump administration has taken that you have ethical concerns about or see as a financial conflict of interest?
▶ 1:09:17Mr. Sonderling: I would reliant have relied on the career ethics officials at the office of government officials --
▶ 1:09:23Sen. Hassan: That is not my question. I am probing your judgment here. You have been nominated to be a secretary of the department of labor. You are in the position of deputy secretary. You have a legal background. You take ethics seriously. The president personally took in dealings of dollars last year perhaps own financial disclosure reports, raising the question -- I thought he was supposed to be president of the united states, not off on side deals.
▶ 1:09:52Sen. Hassan: If he is focused on being president, how is this money pouring into his family's in his own personal accounts. He received a jet from qatar, and we had to spend $400 million of taxpayer money to retrofit that jet. He instructed his lawyers and the department of justice to enter into a sham lawsuit and settlement against the irs. None of fact is you ethical concern?
▶ 1:10:20Mr. Sonderling: The president has always followed the ethical rules. All of his financial disclosures have certified a career ethics officials and his family is committed to having no conflicts of interests, and that is what we are seeing.
▶ 1:10:33Sen. Hassan: Which is why his sons just invested in defense agencies that will have contracts with the department of defense. That is a really disappointing answer. Thank you.
▶ 1:10:44Chair Cassidy: I will defer to senator tuberville.
▶ 1:10:47Sen. Tuberville: Welcome, glad you're here. Haven't seen this many gators in a long time in one spot. I read -- I think I recognize a few throwing stuff at me when I was a coach down there.
▶ 1:11:01Mr. Sonderling: It is senator moody doing that.
▶ 1:11:07Sen. Tuberville: The swamp, it is a hard place to play, and I really enjoyed kicking y'all's ass when I came down there. Welcome, and things for you have done. You have done an outstanding job. You're looking for you to continue that. No, you're a member of vice president vance's task force team. Try to stop this abysmal amount of fraud.
▶ 1:11:36Sen. Tuberville: And money being stolen from the taxpayers. 100 million dollars an hour the last I heard. I can imagine that. So, you're on the task force. You working with the states? How are you collaborating with the states to stop this fraud?
▶ 1:11:50Mr. Sonderling: My role on the task forces related to unemployment insurance fraud. Labor department plays a role in making sure there is no fraud because all fraud is fraud on taxpayer dollars. What we saw in the employment system during covid time, and how the $35 billion was stolen -- gone. Stolen by crime, social security numbers were being stolen. Moons of dollars were going out to people in jail, to dead people.
▶ 1:12:19Mr. Sonderling: Somebody who was born in the year 2154 successfully applied for unemployment insurance and was able to get it. So, countless stories like that hurts the american workers who actually need that money, so under the vice president's leadership on the task force we have the license now to finally stop this and go after states that are not complying.
▶ 1:12:43Mr. Sonderling: I sent a letter to 53 governors and governors in territories, basically saying that we are tired of the fraud and we want you to put these measures in for the fraud to stop, and if you don't then there is going to be consequences and there has never been consequences before and president trump is allowing us to do that. More importantly, we are telling the states, verify first and pay later. Stop paying first and verifying later and that is how much money has gone out.
▶ 1:13:09Mr. Sonderling: So, really pushing on the states to get the technology to verify with ar and we are trying to help them. We are building a centralized system that alabama is helping us with and we see alabama is an amazing example. They have really gone after this and when they had improper payments last two years they got 100% of it back. Have some of the lowest fraud and improper payment rates during they are making sure that person is alive, that person lives in alabama, they are going to the employer.
▶ 1:13:38Mr. Sonderling: Does this person work for you or a fraudster in china? They doing that and showing results. Not only that, they are following up with employers. That is not happening in democrats states like new york is paying $2 million out everyday.
▶ 1:13:53Mr. Sonderling: Our inspector general, we have a partnership together, so I'm doing the front end side, but we are going to make sure states like alabama has put in those controls and then we are going to go after those criminals with criminal process huge -- criminal prosecutions. This is one of the most important things we could do at the department of labor, stop the theft of taxpayer dollars.
▶ 1:14:15Sen. Tuberville: I think ai is going to be the key. I think it is going to be the savior for fraud. There is no way humans can mentally keep up with $5 trillion a year. We can't do it, I don't care how smart you are. So, we have to have machines to do that and we've got to stop it. We are $40 trillion in debt. It is ridiculous and we were talking about ai with senator hawley. I will be the governor of alabama next year. We are going to start teaching our kids ai. You can talk about ai all we want.
▶ 1:14:44Sen. Tuberville: If we don't teach it is not going to work, so we have to learn it at a young age and we are already preparing for that number for young kids in elementary school all the way to high school and they have to learn to use it the right way. And that's the future. Our education system is abysmal right now. It's gone to heck in a hand basket. I worked there for 35 years. I know the federal government is broken because of all this fraud, but we have to educate our kids in the a.I. A couple of other things I just to want say.
▶ 1:15:15Sen. Tuberville: We have this 401 plan we're trying to get through for retirement funds through private equity with cryptocurrency. My bill is called the freedom financial act. We're trying to get it through committee. What does all this mean for the average american and retirement accounts if we can pass a bill like this, where they can actually get something out of their retirement?
▶ 1:15:39Mr. Sonderling: We're working very hard at the department of labor to make sure that 401(k) plans have access to alternative investments, just like union pensions do, just like state pensions do. Right now the 401(k) market is largely in index funds, and those deserve private assets. They deserve diversification, just like somebody with a pension plan.
▶ 1:15:59Mr. Sonderling: So this is one of my top initiatives, to make sure there's parity now between the pension system and the 401(k), to be able to diversify for individuals who just have a 401(k) to get into the private markets that were previously only for credit investors. This is how president trump is going to make america wealthy again, by allowing everyone to democratize that access, allow everyone opportunities outside of just very conservative index funds. At the department, we don't push one fund or the or.
▶ 1:16:30Mr. Sonderling: We lay the neutral framework and let the employers decide under their fiduciary obligations which is the best.
▶ 1:16:39Sen. Tuberville: Our program sucks, ok? Microsoft is firing people and hiring foreign labor. And it's wrong. And we have to hire american workers, and I hope you're on top of that.
▶ 1:16:53Chair Cassidy: Coach, one more important question. What was your lifetime record against the versus? 2001 was very hard.
▶ 1:17:03Sen. Tuberville: Now that you renamed it spurrier field, I'd love to kick his butt one more time.
▶ 1:17:10Chair Cassidy: Senator hickenlooper?
▶ 1:17:11Sen. Hickenlooper: Thank you, Mr. chair. Mr. sonderling, welcome back. Thank you for taking time to meet with me. We talked a little bit about apprenticeships this administration has said their intent to expand the number of apprenticeships to eventually reach a million. Many apprentices were pulled off their job when the administration cancelled various infrastructure projects, clean energy projects.
▶ 1:17:37Sen. Hickenlooper: I think we do need novel solutions to get more apprenticeships in place. What's your approach to that? How do we dramatically ramp up the number of apprenticeships to achieve a million?
▶ 1:17:51Mr. Sonderling: It's our goal and the president's goal to get to one million. We believe this is the fastest pathway into the workforce, to get the way where students can earn while they learn. But we need to get more employers involved in this. We need to get more industries involved in this. As we see manufacturing coming back, as we see critical infrastructure coming back, as we see these areas where very high paying jobs, we need to work both for the student to understand how high paying these jobs are.
▶ 1:18:19Mr. Sonderling: The average apprenticeship is $86,000.
▶ 1:18:22Sen. Hickenlooper: I understand all those arguments. I guess the question I'm asking, I agree you've got to persuade parents. We've done this in colorado. I demonstrated it's not that hard. Parents do see their kids don't necessarily have to go to college and get a lot of debt. They can and be an apprentice in not only banks, but banks, insurance companies, different choices. How long do you think it's going to take to get to a million?
▶ 1:18:49Mr. Sonderling: We're almost at 500,000 am we started over 4,000 new programs in this administration. As we discussed, a lot of this is getting to the parents early in elementary schools, in middle schools, saying this is just an equal path as college, and you need to start looking at this as a viable option that you're going to make more without the debt. 300,000 more in your career if you're an apprentice than not. The numbers are there. The stats are there.
▶ 1:19:14Sen. Hickenlooper: You don't have to persuade me. I'm in. I'm trying to push for a sense of urgency that we get there faster and that it's not just restricted to certain, to people 18 and over, right? In other words, 16-year-old kids, 17-year-old kids can work in a bank or insurance company a couple of days aa week while they're in high school and come back and learn things to make them more successful.
▶ 1:19:41Mr. Sonderling: And we're working on industry to do that. That's a very big part of it, starting earlier, either in a full apprenticeship, that's really how we're going to change the narrative, and to hit president trump's goal of one million.
▶ 1:19:54Sen. Hickenlooper: Appreciate that. There's been, senator hawley, I watched on tv as he's done a couple of questions on a.I. Obviously making its way into all aspects of the work place. And I think we agree that we need to found ways to support workers who go into this. We introduced the a.I. Workforce prepare act, senator banks, senator hassan, senator husted on this, and we directed the department of labor to assess a.I.'s impact on the workforce.
▶ 1:20:26Sen. Hickenlooper: You've also done work, as you've discussed before, on a.I. Employment during your tenure at the eeoc, equal employment opportunity commission. At one point you stated that lessen forcement we have on the federal level, the better. That's not universally true though.
▶ 1:20:43Mr. Sonderling: Lessen force am on the federal level?
▶ 1:20:46Sen. Hickenlooper: Better, that's what you say. When you make a statement like that, sometimes it's taken out of context. I'm giving you a chance.
▶ 1:20:54Mr. Sonderling: Oh, yeah, I believe the federal government plays a key role. The most important thing we can do is talk to all stakeholders will a.I. You have everything from the v.c.'s who support it. They don't want to give money to a startup. They don't to want create a product that harms workers, and ultimately the consumers in our case are the employees. They don't want to be subject to a product that's going take away their job or discriminate against them.
▶ 1:21:21Mr. Sonderling: So that's really where I've been working very hard to get everyone to understand there's long-standing laws, whether it's the national labor relations act from the 1930's, fair labor standards act from the 1930's, 1960's title seven, or even the a.d.a., that equally apply to technology that's out there today and the ones that are developing, and their products are not going to work. It's not going to help the american worker unless they employ them in relation to how the laws work and I don't believe we need any laws for that.
▶ 1:21:49Mr. Sonderling: We need to advocate for our existing laws.
▶ 1:21:53Sen. Hickenlooper: I agree. Those existing laws and setting standards, making sure that we have standards that are going to make sure the kids and american people are held safe and can be, you know, the system will hold a.I. Companies accountable for damages done to our population.
▶ 1:22:13Mr. Sonderling: That's what you discussed with senator hawley. It's building that trust for everyone to be able to want to embrace these tools, use these tools, so we can get the benefit from these tools to get the productivity from these tools, get the potential safety from these tools. But none of that happens without trust, and I believe in the department of labor and the eeoc to be able to be a big part of that equation.
▶ 1:22:34Sen. Hickenlooper: The alignment of self-interests, trust but verify. Anyway, thank you very much. I yield back to the chair.
▶ 1:22:41Chair Cassidy: Thank you. Senator husted, another college football athlete.
▶ 1:22:49Sen. Husted: Yes, although I never played against florida. Thank you, Mr. chairman. I want to ask you a question about the working family tax cut plan, because in there, the average family in the state of ohio, for example, they will see a net $6,000 tax benefit versus what they would have if the bill didn't pass. What does that mean? It means a $2,200 per child tax credit t. Means no tax on tips. No tax on overtime.
▶ 1:23:20Sen. Husted: And I've been to factories where I talked to one individual who said he was going to save all of his overtime pay for the whole year and use it for a down payment, help him get his down payment on a home. How much do you think those policies help families and help add people to the labor force, because there's more incentive for them to actually work?
▶ 1:23:41Mr. Sonderling: As I travel the country, I hear about it all the time. We hear about workers with getting more pay from no tax on tips. And then no tax on overtime, with nor production, manufacturing index has been up six months in a row. We created new manufacturing jobs every month this year. More overtime. So we really see it in a lot of different ways, the obvious ones is more take-home pay from no tax on tips or overtime.
▶ 1:24:07Mr. Sonderling: It's the largest tax bill of all time for getting more money into workers' pockets. What I said earlier, there's ways a lot of people don't understand. When the factory can expand for the american production, that is incentivizing companies who have left the united states to come back. That's why we're seeing toyota invest in a new plant, $3 billion to come here.
▶ 1:24:30Mr. Sonderling: That's why harley davidson is bringing back production to wisconsin and pennsylvania, and in ohio, general motors continues to make more investments what does it do? They get tax production from that. It's going to create more production lines, and they'll be able to hire more workers and be more productive.
▶ 1:24:45Mr. Sonderling: It really helps the economy in much larger ways than just for the individual that they don't understand, and that's really the benefit of this and I will why it's so impactful and why it's so revolutionary, why it's creating more private sector jobs, all jobs created in president trump's second term are in the private sector, exactly what he promised, and that's going to help the workers on the sidelines, forgotten workers back into the workforce for american high paying jobs.
▶ 1:25:10Sen. Husted: Let me shift to apprenticeship, a passion of mine, something I've been involved in and helping grow. You mentioned, and there's a need. We have construction jobs that are growing swiftly in ohio. We've added 3,000 manufacturing jobs in the last year.
▶ 1:25:30Sen. Husted: And the apprentices that come from it, we can graduate people right out of high school, career ready, go from graduating on friday to working on a monday, and then have many of them working while they're still in high school. But here's an insidious thing that's happened to this country for those young high school students if they come from the lowest income families. Many of them can't work while they're in high school. Why? Because their income counts against their parents' income, and many of them are put on the sidelines.
▶ 1:26:00Sen. Husted: I want to tell you a story, and I want your help with this, because I've got a solution called the upward mobility act here in the senate.
▶ 1:26:07Mr. Sonderling: I visited cincinnati community college and I saw firsthand the apprenticeship program.
▶ 1:26:12Sen. Husted: I was with a principal who had a career tech facility, and he told me about this. He said we have lots of students who can't take these apprenticeships, pre-apresent tipsships, work experience, because their families would lose their benefits. I said how big of a problem is it?
▶ 1:26:30Sen. Husted: I met a young lady who, as a junior in high school, moved into a trail other a vacant lot so she could go to work, and her younger brother and sister wouldn't lose their snap benefits. I went and started asking principals all around the state of ohio at these career centers and said, is this a big snob and they said yes.
▶ 1:26:54Sen. Husted: We have high school students who could go to work, be electricians, plumbers and pipe fitters, healthcare, welding, but they can't auto body, they can't take the jobs. Because their family would lose their benefits. And so I have the upward mobility act, which would help fix this issue.
▶ 1:27:16Sen. Husted: So that students could actually go to work and then graduate career and had do what we want them to do, become adults part of the workforce, living their version of the american dream. And so I want your reaction to that, and I would like your commitment to work with us, to help solve this problem, to help more of america's youth get ahead in life.
▶ 1:27:36Mr. Sonderling: You have my commitment to work with you on that, but I think there's a parallel, the able accounts, the working family tax cuts increase the limit for disabled workers to put savings away in. It's now allowing people to continue with those benefits that they need for their disability and continue to work, save for themselves, and be able to participate in society.
▶ 1:27:56Mr. Sonderling: So I think the working family tax cuts has a great example that you've already passed parallel, but you have my full commitment to helping you with any technical assistance you need.
▶ 1:28:10Sen. Husted: Thank you, and Mr. chairman, this is a tragedy we have created a poverty trap for our lowest income families and their children, and I hope that this congress will fix it, thank you.
▶ 1:28:25Chair Cassidy: Thank you. Senator baldwin?
▶ 1:28:26Sen. Baldwin: Thank you, Mr. chairman. Thank you for being here, Mr. sonderling. You are the president's nominee for secretary of labor, but you're getting asked a lot of questions about education, and I'm going to continue in that vein for a short while, hopefully pivot to some more labor-focused issues.
▶ 1:28:46Sen. Baldwin: But the reason is because this administration and this president is taking repeated action to undermine and dismantle the department of education, which was created by congress and can only be eliminated by congress, but they're figuring out all sorts of ways to scatter education programs across the federal government, including at the department of labor, creating a system that I believe is much more complicated and much less
▶ 1:29:18Sen. Baldwin: Efficient, particularly for states and public school districts. State and public school districts previously had to work with just one department, the department of education. Now they're forced to work with multiple departments, multiple grant systems, and it's particularly concerning, as this administration continues their dismantling efforts for the department of education, now moving idea and special education to the department of health and human services.
▶ 1:29:49Sen. Baldwin: Parents and their children really gained nothing from separating federal education programs. And this transfer only undermines services that go to support special education programs. But back to labor. I would like to know exactly what is gained by having the department of labor administer, for example, the impact aid program.
▶ 1:30:14Mr. Sonderling: We can help with efficiency. We can help states and nonprofits get the money that they're entitled to.
▶ 1:30:22Sen. Baldwin: Are you using the impact and grant systems, iags, a system that was developed for that purpose in education, or are you transferring it into the department of labor grant database that you were just telling me in my office that is so incredibly efficient?
▶ 1:30:51Mr. Sonderling: The career professionals at the department of education are working with the career professionals at the department of labor, both who have expertise in this area, to be able to administrator all the grants that congress has given us. And I can assure you this is being done by the professionals in a way to make it easier for states to get the money. And there's been a lot of --
▶ 1:31:11Sen. Baldwin: So you think it's a benefit added to move impact aid from the department of education to the department of labor?
▶ 1:31:17Mr. Sonderling: The programs are not being moved. Under the idea, it's an agreement to think of us as a firm that's just consulting and helping them move these programs, money, but not the actual programs themselves. The programs still all remain at the department of education. They're being run by career experts at the department of education. The department of labor --
▶ 1:31:40Sen. Baldwin: But sitting within the department of labor, correct?
▶ 1:31:44Mr. Sonderling: For efficiency purposes, we moved a few tranches of employees to the frances perkins building, where they all have their own offices. They all have their own computers. They have parking. And they are working out of that building.
▶ 1:31:57Sen. Baldwin: What about title one program? How will parents and teachers and students gain from having the department of labor administer title one programs?
▶ 1:32:10Mr. Sonderling: The department of labor administers the programs under different titles. We know the stake holders in the states. The money flows in the same way to the states as it does education.
▶ 1:32:23Sen. Baldwin: What sort of measurement will you have, or what sort of evidence will you present that transferring these programs to the department of labor has made anything better for students, teachers, parents?
▶ 1:32:37Mr. Sonderling: I will provide you with all that data. You have my commitment that I will show you how these programs are being administered, how they're saving taxpayer dollars, and the department of labor is in the best position to do this under a long-standing iaaa, which all administrations have used.
▶ 1:32:54Sen. Baldwin: It will be very interesting to see your evidence why the department of labor should be better than education. I'm going change to something that is squarely under your department. We talked about apprenticeships when we met, and you've gotten several other questions. Wisconsin has over 17,000 enrolled apprentices right now, and I want to make sure that nothing gets in the way of progress.
▶ 1:33:21Sen. Baldwin: So do you have any plans to propose rules allowing for industry recognized apprenticeships programs or other rules to weaken registered apprenticeships standard?
▶ 1:33:33Mr. Sonderling: The president's executive order directs us to one hit one million. I've been promoting this through the department to help them control the crick crumb, get th- control the crick crumb, get thl control the crick crumb, get the control the crick crumb, get th, get the hours in, we believe this is the way to skill this generation and the next generation, and that's what we're promoting.
▶ 1:33:54Sen. Baldwin: So you have no plans to go forward?
▶ 1:33:58Mr. Sonderling: They describe registered apprenticeships.
▶ 1:34:01Sen. Baldwin: Thank you.
▶ 1:34:02Chair Cassidy: Thank you. Madam gator. >> I like that. Thank you, Mr. chairman. And again, thank you, and I want to go back, Mr. sonderling, to how we started the day, and your nomination hearing, just to again commend you and this administration for really digging in, rolling up your sleeves, trying to course correct for a lot of the things that we previously saw to make sure that we are approaching
▶ 1:34:34Chair Cassidy: Government and supporting american workers and american industry and making sure we're looking at our roles through that lens, and I think you've done a dynamic job of that so far. I look forward to doing that as the permanent head of the agency. In fact, I think when I came in, one of the main reasons I wanted to get up here as a senator was to kind of take a machete to what the last administration had done.
▶ 1:34:58Chair Cassidy: If you listen to all of your questioning today, it was all about freaking out about what's happening to where they were putting money. Truly. What are you doing with this grant? What are you doing? We're moving it from education. Like, everybody is freaking out, and I think the words they used are undermining and dismantling programs.
▶ 1:35:18Chair Cassidy: So I just want to make sure that we're all talking about the same thing, because what I watched and had to hit gait against as the attorney general for florida in the last administration, when we had a chief executive asleep at the wheel and radicals trying to drive the car off the cliff, it's literally like what I used to pick my kid up from school during free time, and they just got in there and everything was crazy and things were knocked off, strewn around, broken. That's what you had to inherent.
▶ 1:35:47Chair Cassidy: And since this administration has been in office, you have helped with no tax on tips, no tax on overtime. I mean, we are watching what that is doing in terms of redirecting where washington is keeping money, not giving it over to bureaucrats that want to spend it on crazy things. But keeping it in americans' pockets. Focusing on what americans' financial health, americans' well-being, that's what the people need to restore their faith in this government.
▶ 1:36:16Chair Cassidy: But let's talk about dismantling programs for just one moment. I'll give you the chance to comment on that. Because I really, truly think americans need to understand what happens when they're talking about dismantling climate programs or dismantling any other kind of program. Let's talk about that. Because it infuriates me, and I am so glad there are people like you at the helm to course correct.
▶ 1:36:39Chair Cassidy: But you know, as deputy secretary, oh, and by the way, I needed to say, florida is now getting the largest average tax returns of any state in the nation due to some of this reor I don't wanted policy making and approach. But under your leadership, and you've gotten a lot of what are you doing with an international labor affairs bureau? And where all that money is. Can we talk about that?
▶ 1:37:01Chair Cassidy: But before you do, let me just say, under the biden international labor affairs bureau, and we're all freaking about where money might be cancelled or disimagined, is it true that $10 million went to gender equity in the mexican work place, $12.2 million went to worker empowerment in south america, $5 million went to elevating women's participation in the workforce in west africa, $4.3 million went to assisting foreign migrant workers in
▶ 1:37:32Chair Cassidy: Malaysia, $4 million went to promoting lgbtq+ youth inclusion in brazilian employer value chains, $7 million went to enable workers in south africa and colombia to advocate for climate change policy. I know they were really upset we did away with that. Is it your intention to make sure some of this money is actually going to help the american workers and american families?
▶ 1:37:56Mr. Sonderling: It's our duty for all of our grants, all of your taxpayer dollars, to go to american workers and make sure that american workers are getting first and best opportunities. It's also our duty at the department of labor to make sure that other countries aren't ripping us off with forced labor and undercutting our system. So those grants have been cancelled. What you know we're doing with those grants? Instead of what you listed, $13.8 million is going to go to help american workers learn ship building, which is a national security concern.
▶ 1:38:26Mr. Sonderling: Bringing back ship building to the united states. So our military ships aren't getting repaired overseas. That's how we look at grant making. How is it going to benefit the american worker? How are we going to work with industry to make sure that all these private sector jobs that american workers have the skills needed by talking to employers, and then putting out money that way.
▶ 1:38:46Mr. Sonderling: That's why we have a manufacturing front for manufacturing and other industries that benefit american workers, because the american workers are the greatest in the world, and that should be our first and only concern, and that's exactly what we've done in the second trump administration.
▶ 1:39:01Sen. Moody: We have something shifting over to your agency as well, I think it's public knowledge, the perkins granted that go to grade and skills and education. I am very excited about that, and this is why. We are finding out more and more that some of the most well funded universities that kids are coming out hating our country, we have given them tax breaks on their endowment, you know, more so than you would the average american that has a tax obligation from their investment
▶ 1:39:32Sen. Moody: Income. We give them tax breaks. I think it's important that we focus on trade and skills training just as much as we want to focus on opportunities for kids to get a four-year degree. We should be investing resources, time and attention to that.
▶ 1:39:49Sen. Moody: So I have a bill which is taking that endowment, the ones that are well overfunded, tax at a fair rate, and redirect that so indoctrinate kids and not training them, redirect it to trade schools and through the perkins grants make sure that we are investing in training the next generation, not just indoctrinating the next generation. Are you help me do that?
▶ 1:40:16Mr. Sonderling: I will help you in our shared journey on that.
▶ 1:40:20Sen. Moody: Thank you.
▶ 1:40:23Chair Cassidy: Thank you. Senator alsobrooks?
▶ 1:40:25Sen. Alsobrooks: Thank you, Mr. sonderling, for being here today. When we last met and had our last exchange, it was in february, and it was at that time that I asked you a question about whether collective bargaining agreements were legally enforceable.
▶ 1:40:43Sen. Alsobrooks: You shared with me that you were unfamiliar with the collective bargaining process, and in fact, went on to say this was basically above your pay grade and outside your area of expertise, and that you would "rely on career experts" to work on those issues.
▶ 1:40:59Sen. Alsobrooks: And in the weeks that followed, our exchange, I was horrified to see this administration took successes and steps to undermine the c.b.a.'s and federal workers, to hurt federal workers, and it started with the executive order removing collective bargaining rights for large portions of the federal workforce.
▶ 1:41:22Sen. Alsobrooks: It is so disturbing to me and really a horrible twist of fate then that we are now faced with your nomination, a person who I have seen aid and abet this president's pro tracted campaign against federal workers' rights. So I just want to go back to the basics here and ask you, under what statute are collective bargaining agreements enforceable?
▶ 1:41:49Mr. Sonderling: It's under the national labor relations act of 1935. I did not say I don't understand collective bargaining. Obviously I understand collective bargaining. What I was referring to, I think you were asking me about specific contracts.
▶ 1:42:01Sen. Alsobrooks: No, no, I remember what I asked. I said are they legally enforceable?
▶ 1:42:06Mr. Sonderling: They are legally enforceable and have been.
▶ 1:42:09Sen. Alsobrooks: Well, good, I wish you had said that before. So I -- listen, I don't have a lot of time, and I'll going ask another question. But I'm glad to hear that at least in this hearing you now admit that you do know that collective bargaining agreements, we can go back and pull the tape where you said different. But the point of the matter is, whether or not you know how federal workers, I'd like to you answer this question. How federal workers union differ from private sector unions.
▶ 1:42:39Mr. Sonderling: First of all, they all are subject to the labor management relation disclosure act of the 1950's that the department of labor enforces, so for unions, they have to do all of the reporting. But they deal with the federal labor relations authority, where private sector deals with the national labor relations authority, so they have two different government agencies that enforce them in the private sector and public sector.
▶ 1:43:04Sen. Alsobrooks: The most important difference between private sector and public sector unions is that public sector unions do not negotiate higher wages. Then allowed to strike like private sector. So the point of the matter is, public sector unions are there ex-include civil to protect the working conditions of federal employees. This is very different than private.
▶ 1:43:25Sen. Alsobrooks: So I want you to explain then why has this administration, if this provides no further tax, money returned to taxpayers, this does not save taxpayers dollars, why has this administration, such a wicked way, attacked federal and public workforce unions? Tell us why. Why have they attacked unions?
▶ 1:43:49Mr. Sonderling: I have not seen them attack any union specifically in the public sector or private sector. I think this administration respects the law, respects the agencies that enforce them.
▶ 1:44:02Sen. Alsobrooks: Oh, we certainly disagree with that.
▶ 1:44:06Mr. Sonderling: There's a government agency that will deal with that, and I'm confident of that agency. And there are senate confirmed people there that will make sure that that process is fair, and that's how it works
▶ 1:44:23Sen. Alsobrooks: This isn't a matter of dispute. You can look at the executive order that literally targets these collective bargaining agreements in these federal agencies. But I want to go to another question.
▶ 1:44:34Mr. Sonderling: I control the department of labor. We have agreements we're abiding by. We have good relations. I'm meeting with them in september. From my perspective, the agency that I hopefully am able to lead, you have my commitment that I will continue to work with the unions, work with our local unions, and meet with them regularly, which I have done throughout my tenure.
▶ 1:44:55Anisoles Brooks: I have to tell you again, and I'm relieved to hear. The last time, we can look at you, this was a different response. But this is the last question. So national security was invoked to justify the revocation of collective bargaining agreements across the federal government in march of 2025, and I want you to please explain why the march 2025 executive order applied the exception to agencies that have less of a direct connection to national security, such as the department of health and human services, or agriculture
▶ 1:45:28Anisoles Brooks: Department, and not others that arguably do have a strong connection such as I.c.e.
▶ 1:45:33Mr. Sonderling: I would defer to the experts at o.p.m. And the executive order on that. But I can what tell you is related to I.d. Employees who do deal with national securities. Our systems get hacked daily. Those are some of our most important employees there, and there is a national security exception in the law, and that's what that executive order directed us to do. That is a law that congress passed that had that exception for national security, and o.p.m. And this administration has looked at that.
▶ 1:46:00Sen. Alsobrooks: You'll commit your department will not -- seek the national security agency for the purpose of limiting collective bargaining agreements.
▶ 1:46:09Mr. Sonderling: There are some components that deal with national security that would be happy to brief you privately. Thank you.
▶ 1:46:16Chair Cassidy: I shall defer to senator murkowski.
▶ 1:46:18Sen. Murkowski: Thank you. Mr. sonderling, welcome. Appreciated our conversation. I'm pretty sure that in our discussion I invited you to come to alaska to better understand some of the challenges that we face with being a highly, highly rural state. I'm pretty sure that you committed to me, but I'm going to give you an opportunity in the open record to confirm just that.
▶ 1:46:45Mr. Sonderling: You can talk to my staff. I've been to alaska three times, and I want to go back.
▶ 1:46:51Sen. Murkowski: We want you back again.
▶ 1:46:53Mr. Sonderling: I want to do it, and we will do it, and if I can -- I will come in the winter. Let's do it in february or january.
▶ 1:47:02Chair Cassidy: You really want her vote.
▶ 1:47:05Sen. Murkowski: We'll think about the best timing on this. And really, for us, it doesn't make a difference the time of year, because whatever the time is, there will be a seasonal aspect to our workforce. Right now, the height of the summer, the fish are running, and our challenge is the seafood processing workforce.
▶ 1:47:27Sen. Murkowski: We've had an opportunity to talk about the reason why it is so important not only to receive those, but to receive those in a timely manner and to hopefully, my ask to you today is to work with us, to get alaska seafood workers, seafood workers exempted from this process, so that we don't have to go through this scramble every year wondering if our workforce is going to be able to meet the
▶ 1:47:58Sen. Murkowski: Salmon runs.
▶ 1:47:58Mr. Sonderling: So this is a bipartisan issue I hear not only from alaska, but l.s.u., chairman, with the crawfish, and then up and down the coast from maine all the way down to florida. These are critical industries for us. These are really products in seafood that need to go out, very timely, and the workforce considerations of these is difficult, because of the way the system is, but I can assure you that we're doing everything we can con the constraints from a customer service perspective.
▶ 1:48:24Mr. Sonderling: We created the office of immigration policy, so we moved the programs to its own office for customer service. So that means people who need to use the program have people dedicated directly to them in its own independent agency, which we've asked congress to make permanent. Number two on the h2b specifically, as you know, the cap is the determination of year, a decision made by d.h.s.
▶ 1:48:50Mr. Sonderling: With a consultation, but the cap was raised to the statutory maximum this year but I really think the biggest part for seasonal industries, the changes we made for the lottery system, for the first two tranches, the $33,000, instead of just the rush to have it filed at midnight and people lose out through no fault of their own, breaking it down to time of need in three different groups, so those who need workers for january seasons aren't finding time for may seasons.
▶ 1:49:18Mr. Sonderling: So from our perspective, we're really doing everything we can, because the worst thing to happen is you have these industries that want american products that people want, and for us to not live on them because of the workforce shortage, especially in rural areas too, and I know specifically through alaska, how challenging some of the locations are to get workers in there too and how there are just communities that have relied upon the same people for many time, and it's very important that the department of neighbor a service provider is being able
▶ 1:49:49Mr. Sonderling: To process those applications immediately and getting the workers on time, because it's processed late, it's over.
▶ 1:49:59Sen. Murkowski: It's also complicated, as you noted. You have to work with the department of homeland security on this. As I shared with you, some years it's a problem, some years it's d.h.s. That's the problem. What we need is to have this alignment. What we need is to have a level of review where we're watching the whole picture.
▶ 1:50:22Sen. Murkowski: And to your point about the timing, you're correct in that that has helped us, because we have a later season, so we don't need everybody else in the country to snap these up ahead of our season. So we've made some progress, but I just need to know that you've got your eye on the ball with this, working with us, and again, whether it's salmon season or whether it is the season where we're trying to entertain guests to come to our
▶ 1:50:53Sen. Murkowski: Ski resorts or our workers occupant north slope when it's exploration time and working out in a really tough environment, we need to have good support within the department of labor. And to that, I wanted to just ask a question.
▶ 1:51:13Sen. Murkowski: Many have asked about aprison advertiseship programs, and I think you can hear from this committee how we feel about the department in providing appropriate training for those in these apprenticeship programs. I want to hear your commitment to maintaining the current national registered apprenticeship program.
▶ 1:51:34Mr. Sonderling: Absolutely. It's not only my commitment, but it's the president's commitment. He issue it had within his first 100 days. We're just trying to make it better. We're improving new aprison advertiseships in the program.
▶ 1:51:49Sen. Murkowski: This is where I want to make my specific ask. We want to make it even better. As you know, and you've pointed out, we have serious challenges in rural areas. You've got these communities, 82% are not connected by road. It's not only access for the workers, but they're limited then in terms of their traditional workforce training venues.
▶ 1:52:13Sen. Murkowski: So being creative with us as to how we tap into that for apprenticeship is where I would like.
▶ 1:52:21Mr. Sonderling: The state education systems locally is very important part of that too.
▶ 1:52:24Sen. Murkowski: Good. Let's work together. Thank you, Mr. chair.
▶ 1:52:27Chair Cassidy: Thank you. I now defer to senator banks. Isn't it your birthday? Happy birthday. You must like me to come here on your birthday.
▶ 1:52:36Sen. Banks: Embarrass me on my birthday. Mr. sonderling, great to see you.
▶ 1:52:42Chair Cassidy: Is your microphone on?
▶ 1:52:45Sen. Banks: It is. L on. Mr. sonderling, thank you for your leadership. You've done a great job in your current role. You're going to be a great secretary. But can you talk for a minute about illegal immigration? It's illegal to hire illegals, yet tens of millions of illegals still find jobs in america. What can the department of labor do to work better with I.c.e. To prevent businesses from hiring illegals and to fulfill the mission of I.c.e.?
▶ 1:53:12Mr. Sonderling: When you hire illegal workers, you're undercutting businesses that are doing the right thing. And you're undercutting businesses that comply with the law and are complying for safe work place conditions that pay properly. Also, too, whether it's illegals or human trafficking, we see that they're not, they don't have safe working conditions. And they're not paid properly as well. So it continues to undercut the market.
▶ 1:53:36Mr. Sonderling: So from the department of labor's perspective, from the agencies that can go after it, it's really holding those employers accountable to make sure there's no human traffic, there's no illegal workers being underpaid, which raises compliance, because it disincentivizing those employers, those bad actors to hire illegal labor if they have to do the same exact requirements as if you hire american workers, which is the law. But also working very closely with I.c.e.
▶ 1:54:06Mr. Sonderling: To make sure that all the laws are enforced and we are in places and that we do see illegal labor, we are working with all of our law enforcement partners at d.h.s., the department of justice, because it is a crime. And the other thing is that those jobs should be going to american workers. We need to continue disincentivizing employers saying we have to use these illegal labor because we still have skilled and qualified local workers. And that's what we're trying to do with a lot of the programs we discussed.
▶ 1:54:35Sen. Banks: Can you describe the formal relationship between I.c.e. And the department of labor?
▶ 1:54:39Mr. Sonderling: The department of labor and I.c.e. Obviously were partners with the department of homeland security, but there was m.o.u.'s that were put in place during the obama administration. They were called infixes agreements, if the labor of department was there first, I.c.e. Would not get into the work place. So clearly that employer was violating the law, and the department of homeland security was precluded by memorandum to not be able to enter there if osha was there.
▶ 1:55:10Mr. Sonderling: That has been withdrawn. This administration is the administration of law and order, and we believe that these laws should be applied equally. That doesn't mean the department of labor doesn't have a role in there to clean up the employer, but that doesn't mean I.c.e. And d.h.s. Should be precluded from going there too. It's working together, as opposed to saying what agency's laws are more important. That's what we've changed in this administration, and ultimately it's going to benefit the american workers, because american workers will get those jobs.
▶ 1:55:38Sen. Banks: I've worked on this committee to end the optional practical training program, or o.p.t., which gives corporations a subsidy for hiring foreign students in tech jobs. This program prevents young americans from getting jobs and congress never authorized it. Do you have any plans to work with d.h.s. To crack down on an unlawful program like o.p.t.?
▶ 1:56:03Mr. Sonderling: We're working with all of our partners in the administration, d.h.s., d.o.j., on these issues. The program you're talking about allows students on j1 visa to have work experience under the program, which can be up to 36 months. There are benefits for employers, like not paying some of the taxes as well and then eventually it allows the students to transfer to a h-1b visa for a aphysical process all the way through, and eventually get citizenship of green card.
▶ 1:56:34Mr. Sonderling: So we're looking at all these programs, and we're looking to see there's such with 900,000 new private sector jobs, the president promised that those jobs would be forgotten men and women of america, and all americans to have that opportunity to get those jobs. So that's our foremost consideration when we look at any of these programs, are they not only being lawfully used, but how are we going to make sure that employers don't meet the programs with so many great american workers, and that's what we're trying to get to. But o.p.t.
▶ 1:57:01Mr. Sonderling: Is a department of homeland security security, but there are labor-adjacent issues.
▶ 1:57:07Sen. Banks: Tech companies claim we need highly skilled immigration to fix worker shortages, but as many as half of recent computer science graduates in america are unemployed today. Is there really a shortage, or do some businesses just prefer cheap labor?
▶ 1:57:25Mr. Sonderling: The program under the hsb program, we're making sure that within our statutory control, that if you're going to use that program, it's actually necessary and needed, and not only are there not qualified american workers, but also if you bring in foreign labor it has to be paid appropriately, so you can't undercut it. That harms the people coming in, harms the program as well, so we have a lot of rules and regulations to make that program.
▶ 1:57:50Mr. Sonderling: If you're going to use it, you have to pay for it, or else you see what the cost was how much to train an american worker, that analysis wasn't done wage rates became too low, and that's what we're fixing.
▶ 1:58:02Sen. Banks: I yield back.
▶ 1:58:04Chair Cassidy: Happy birthday, senator banks. Senator kim?
▶ 1:58:07Sen. Kim: Happy birthday. Mr. sonderling, thanks for coming before this committee. I wanted to circle up with you on a question I raised with you in a previously nomination hearing about osha. I raised concerns about increasing on or about I increasing on or osha budget, d increasing on or osha budget, u indicated that you would ensure they had appropriate resources.
▶ 1:58:33Sen. Kim: Despite that promise, the past two presidential budget have included decreases to osha's budget on top of also dedresing the workforce. Given this information, how are you squaring decreasing osha budget and capacity with improving work place safety?
▶ 1:58:50Mr. Sonderling: A lot relates to efficiencies, and a lot of the historic budget dealt with office and staffing levels that didn't exist anymore. The president's budget related to osha allows a few things. One, to account for that, for the amount of workers that have left. But also allows us to account for new technology as well. There's a lot of a.I. Products that we're looking to invest in, to make our investigations more efficient.
▶ 1:59:17Sen. Kim: Are those a.I. Tools already in effect?
▶ 1:59:21Mr. Sonderling: We're working hard on that.
▶ 1:59:24Sen. Kim: The answer is no?
▶ 1:59:26Mr. Sonderling: Going back to osha, you asked me to look at, and I did, and we looked at the entire workforce. Our osha division needed additional workers. I believe we hired over 90 new osha inspectors. You can apply to be a osha inspector.
▶ 1:59:43Sen. Kim: The way I would just --
▶ 1:59:46Mr. Sonderling: We're replenishing the workforce.
▶ 1:59:48Sen. Kim: What is it you're trying to accomplish here? In terms of doing the work place safety, it's about making sure that they have an ability to inspect work places, to be able to check on safety. The afl-cio did a report that said it would take osha191 years to inspect every work place once based on the data. We're seeing challenges already from a shrinking workforce. That was under your leadership that the number of years it would take has doubled.
▶ 2:00:17Sen. Kim: I guess I just want to share that with you. I get it, we're constrained. We don't have infinite money. But when we're looking at what it is we're trying to do, the goal should always be how can we make sure that we are responding to the work place demands to be able to make sure we're addressing those needs? And you I have talked about a.I. Workforce on a number of different places, but there's one in particular I wanted to just check with you on.
▶ 2:00:47Sen. Kim: The department of labor has proposed the creation of an a.I. Workforce hub. That's right. And it says that it's going to hopefully more adequately track and respond to a.I. Trends, all admirable, but also they talked about involving partnerships with private a.I. And training vendors. I wanted to just ask you, can you commit to this committee for full public disclosure on any vendor or partner selected for this initiative?
▶ 2:01:13Mr. Sonderling: It will be on the website, and it's not just companies. As we discussed earlier the entire ecosystem are all workers, all businesses, all unions. The partnership is not going to just affect the company, it's going to be employers, unions, nonprofits. Some of them are in this room here today. So we're included everyone. It's going to be completesly public who's a part of this. But as we discussed, this is going to be the missing link to get that data that nobody has.
▶ 2:01:41Sen. Kim: You and I have talked about how we share that goal, because we need to know, where the puck is going, how it is we're trying to address something that is clearly going to have seismic impact on our economy, already has, a lot of concerns. We've talked about how many young people in the country right now are very, very worried about the impact this is going to be to have on their chance to get a job after college.
▶ 2:02:08Sen. Kim: We have to be able to respond with urgency, and I think that transparency is necessary. We know there's a lot of money, a lot of people involved, a lot of concerns on that front. The last thing I want to ask you is that as someone who worked as a career federal government worker before, now a nonpolitical worker, I hear from people all throughout the agency, and look, there are real concerns at every department, including the department of labor, about morale, about the status of jobs and whether or
▶ 2:02:38Sen. Kim: Not the people there feel like they can still have the kind of career they want without a toxic work environment. How are you going to try to restore trust under your leadership at the department of labor?
▶ 2:02:50Mr. Sonderling: The department of labor is for all workers, including federal workers, especially the department of labor employees where I started my federal career as well. I did not start walking in as a cabinet secretary. I started walking in the halls with them and eating in the same cafeteria. So I think there's a level of trusts they know with me and that I'm committed to them. The department of labor's workforce.
▶ 2:03:11Sen. Kim: I've hard you. In my final seconds, I urge you to prioritize that if you're confirmed, thank you. There has been just a real concern about this tiered system, this caste system between the politicals and the careers, and I hope you are someone that can go in a different path. With that, I yield back.
▶ 2:03:29Chair Cassidy: Thank you, senator kim. Good job today, Mr. sonderling. You've done it before, I gather. A couple of questions on my behalf. Last year I introduced the unlocking benefits for independent workers act, providing a safe harbor for companies attempting to provide portal benefits to workers.
▶ 2:03:52Chair Cassidy: Ideally to grow ago success to healthcare, retirement accounts, and even vacation days for independent workers, so if passed, how do you see this legislation interacting with d.o.l.'s proposed independent contractor rule? And would it assist d.o.l. With further rule making, which would have the goal of empowering workers?
▶ 2:04:17Mr. Sonderling: This is an important issue and one I command your leadership on. We've been talking about this issue for many years. The issue right now is that you have the big economy workers -- gig economy workers working for big companies that everyone knows, and they love that arrangement. They also want some benefits.
▶ 2:04:32Mr. Sonderling: And you see these companies, too, who want to provide those benefits to employees, whether it's contributions to 401(k), contributions to healthcare, or other benefits such as discounts related to them being able to negotiate in bulk for cars for equipment and tools, and that's really been prohibited. And what you've seen in that, because of the department of labor's regulations, neither side want to create the employment relationship.
▶ 2:04:59Mr. Sonderling: The gig workers want to stay as independent contractors, and operators want to keep them as independent contractors, so you have both sides in agreance that we like this business model, but I want to give you benefits, and I want to receive benefits, but that's going to ruin that business model due to the department of labor's regulations. So what you've seen in the absence of that states, democrat states, republican states coming together and saying we want our citizens to be able to get this. So we're going to do innovative laws.
▶ 2:05:25Mr. Sonderling: We've seen it in states across the country that say, under state law, you can get these benefits, and you can work for five different companies, and get little pieces from each company that everyone is happy, but under federal law, there's still a fear that may creep the relationship and worry these programs and lead to significant litigation or worse, the department of labor investigations. So this is a very key part.
▶ 2:05:48Chair Cassidy: Let me be clear. Once I was in the airport in new orleans by a man who had been working as a lyft driver in california, but decided he'd rather live in new orleans. Clearly a very smart man. And so he moved back, and he had to tell uber or lyft, hey, I'm moving to new orleans. My son-in-law was driving. He was in louisiana. He and my daughter moved to miami. Hey, I'm moving to miami. He continued to drive.
▶ 2:06:18Chair Cassidy: So it seemed like a federal law is needed, because even though states are doing this, what may be allowed in tennessee would not necessarily be allowed in california.
▶ 2:06:26Mr. Sonderling: Correct, and also too under the day of will not's regulations, will that be enough to curb the companies to buy in on this? We can design rules and regulations, but ultimate physical they need the legislative certainty, that's something I defer to you on, but this is really, again, a bipartisan issue, it's an issue that both workers and companies agree on that, you know, they want benefits. They want to be able to build law.
▶ 2:06:52Mr. Sonderling: It's something the trump administration is really pushing for people to be able to get retirement accounts.
▶ 2:06:57Chair Cassidy: And just to be clear, if we arrange there's an account that, ok, I want for four different, doordasher, usualer and lyft, and I'm an amazon guy, as hawley points out, that they're all paying into an account. Mechanically, I, the worker, would designate this is the account where I want my health benefits paid into.
▶ 2:07:21Mr. Sonderling: Correct. You'd create an account where you work for a lot of different platforms, and then other platform companies can give little pieces of the amount of time that you're in there too. So that's the model we're seeing around the country. That's the model that platform companies have come to me saying we have these resources, we want to provide these resources, our people want these resources, and that's how essentially it would work under some of your proposals, under federal law, it would not create the employment
▶ 2:07:52Mr. Sonderling: Relationship under the fair labor standards act.
▶ 2:07:55Chair Cassidy: The department of labor oversees the employee benefits security administration, which obviously has a critical role in overseeing employer-sponsored insurance. Congress passed by oversight and transparency legislation, and you, d.o.l., is writing a new rule in this space. Clearly we need toe afford healthcare affordability. The president is making the affordability of pharmaceuticals a major priority.
▶ 2:08:24Chair Cassidy: Kind of tell us, if you will, what d.o.l. Is doing in this space.
▶ 2:08:29Mr. Sonderling: This is for p.b.m.'s, the department of labor is the regulator when it comes to care plans. And this is going to be the most transparent rule in this industry, requiring p.b.m.'s to really disclose what the spread pricing is, what the manufacturing rebate is, what the administrative fees are, not so regulate healthcare. That is not, that is for this committee and h.h.s.
▶ 2:08:55Mr. Sonderling: But to give that transparency for better negotiations when healthcare plans come up and say now, for the first time, because of the department of labor's rule, we know what the spread pricing is. I know congress is fixing some of this. We know the rebates.
▶ 2:09:09Mr. Sonderling: We can actually see how much our employees are having to pay, and we're to have to pay for drug prices, and that allows them to better negotiate, and that's all we can do at the department of labor is give that transparency for the fiduciaries at the company who are negotiating this on the best behalf of their employer.
▶ 2:09:29Mr. Sonderling: They've never been armed with information about what they're paying on these lists, and now for the first time they have that information, which will lower healthcare costs and allow providers to provide that medication at a much fair irprice.
▶ 2:09:44Chair Cassidy: When do you think that rule will come out?
▶ 2:09:45Mr. Sonderling: We are working very hard on it. Obviously the c.a.a., you know, the amendments came out either like a day or two before the rule proposal went out. So we have to adjust some of that now with congress saying related to some of the unlawful pricing schemes or rebate schemes.
▶ 2:10:04Mr. Sonderling: So we are building that into the rule, but it is a priority, because it's going to save the staff billions and billions of dollars for healthcare plans, drive down the cost of hesse plans, allow employers of all sizes to provide healthcare plans they weren't able to, because they were so much in the middle being made for profit that is potentially going away. But again, the pricing is on them. H.h.s., all the department of labor can do is transparency, and that's our commitment to you in all of our programs.
▶ 2:10:36Chair Cassidy: Sounds great. I share your optimism about the rule and I consider that a personal achievement. I wish to enter statement in the record of over 80 organizations in support of Mr. sonderling, and that is agreed to without objection. For any senator wishing to ask additional questions, those for the record will be due at 5:00 p.m. Friday, july 17. Thank you begun, sir, for being here. The committee stands adjourned, and taking the chairman's prerogative, go, tigers.