▶ 0:31:22>> the committee will come to order. I apologize for the late start time. I was at the ford -- foreign relations committee along with it a couple of members. We were in markup and had any of us left, they would've lost a quorum. Today the committee on energy and will conduct oversight over the federal energy revelatory commission, ferc.
▶ 0:31:55Pursuant to the federal power act and the natural gas act, the commission regulates the interstate transmission and wholesale market of electricity and natural gas, as well as oil and gas pipelines and hydroelectric power. It ensures that electricity rates are reasonable and licenses facilities within its statutory jurisdiction.
▶ 0:32:20All these things are vital to america's energy dominance, ensuring security and prosperity at home and our ability to advance the interest of the united states on the world stage by supplying the energy needs of others. Today we will hear from the five commissioners to report on their priorities and the commission's operations.
▶ 0:32:43They are chairman laura swett, and commissioners david rosner, lindsay see lindsay see, and david lacerte. There was a time when the federal energy regulatory commission operated largely outside the public spotlight. Those days are now over.
▶ 0:33:10Ferc sits at the center us on the most important questions facing our country. Reliable electricity, affordable energy, data centers, manufacturing, national security. Every one of these issues now runs directly through ferc. Some estimates suggest the commission regulates activity representing roughly 5% of the american economy.
▶ 0:33:40This understates the matter because in reality the commission's influence reaches much further. Energy is an input for basically everything we produce. Everything we do. When energy becomes more expensive or less reliable every american pays the price. In far more ways than one. That makes the mission more important now than ever.
▶ 0:34:10The united states is experiencing the fastest growth in electricity demand in a generation. After years of relatively flat low growth, utilities across our country are forecasting dramatic increases driven by data centers and artificial intelligence and advanced manufacturing, electrification. America is building again.
▶ 0:34:38It means investment is returning, but not of it happens if we cannot produce and deliver enough reliable electricity. That's why I was encouraged by the commission's action under section 206 of the federal power act addressing how regional transmission organizations and independent system operations handle large load operations.
▶ 0:35:06Rather than imposing a one-size-fits-all federal mandate, the commission directed six regional grid operators to re-examine health large data centers and other major new customers might connect to the grid. With particular attention to interconnection delays. Who pays for the necessary upgrades? What impact these things but ultimately have on consumers? These are extra nearly difficult questions. No one suggests they are easy.
▶ 0:35:33Large data centers create tremendous economic opportunity, but also consume enormous amounts of electricity. Existing ratepayers should not be forced to subsidize costs that belong to new entrants. We also cannot allow outdated processes to prevent new investment from connecting to the grid. Getting that balance right will be difficult but I'm confident if you maintain your current trajectory, U.S.
▶ 0:36:01Commissioners will be more than up to the task -- you asked commissioners will be more than up to the task. Modernizing affirmative reviews, reducing unnecessary delays. Those that don't provide any additional value added on the averments of front. It's expanding the use of blanket certificates for routine upgrades.
▶ 0:36:28Every year that we happened to delay needed infrastructure is another year americans have to pay higher prices and face greater reliability risks. More importantly, I hope the discussion reinforces something that should unite all of us regardless. Of political this committee continues his work on permitting reform. I hope we can build on the bipartisan momentum around many of these issues.
▶ 0:36:59I look forward to getting perspectives from each of you today of the challenges ahead and working with each of you to ensure we lower costs for consumers while simultaneously improving rate reliability. Ranking member heinrich.
▶ 0:37:13Sen. Heinrich: Thank you, chairman lee. Thanks to all five the commissioners for attending this hearing today. We very much appreciate having you here. The federal energy regulatory commission has long been an important independent agency. It serves the public interest by regulating electricity, hydroelectric dams, natural gas, oil in a manner that is both fair and impartial from the president and the congress as required by statute.
▶ 0:37:44Sen. Heinrich: Historically considered by some to be a bit of a sleepy agency, ferc faces a pivotal time in our nations history right now. Electricity prices are rising. Electors -- electricity supply has not kept up with demand. 75% of U.S. adults say they have noticed their home energy costs increasing in recent years. Some of that blame can be squarely placed on our current president.
▶ 0:38:11Sen. Heinrich: I recently released a report on how this administration is waging a war on cheap, clean energy and the impact of rising energy costs. The administration is slow walking 73 gigawatts -- think about that -- gigawatts of solar, 43 gigawatts of storage, 30 gigawatts of onshore wind, and 16 gigawatts of offshore wind.
▶ 0:38:36Sen. Heinrich: Constraining the bill that would increase economy wide utility costs by approximately $11.6 billion per year. That is not the only reason costs are rising. We are seeing a rapid increase in electricity demand and are hampered by not getting enough power from generators to end-users and struggling to quickly add new needed generation sources.
▶ 0:39:00Sen. Heinrich: Luckily we can take steps to improve our grid to help make -- help move electricity more efficiently and bring new power sources online. I recently launched an initiative called grid for growth, a plan to meet surging electricity demand without shifting the costs to consumers. This effort complements ongoing efforts to pass bipartisan permitting reform.
▶ 0:39:22Sen. Heinrich: As part of the effort, I introduced the grid connection and congestion management act to create a faster path for generator interconnection. Modeled after ercot's connected management process, they are rewarded for being flexible in their output by getting onto the grid faster. Other bills will follow the next few weeks and months but our ability to meet the rising needs of the grid are based in large part on our ability to build.
▶ 0:40:02Sen. Heinrich: More interregional transmission lines that is why permitting reform is so important. Enter regional transmission lines can be the best line of defense against extreme weather conditions, improving reliability, and reducing consumer costs. While ferc requires some planning under orders 1000 and 1920, this coordination has not produced a substantial number of interregional transmission projects in the last decade. We need to find a way to build more high-voltage transmission lines in the next decade. Our ability to grow our economy depends on it.
▶ 0:40:33Sen. Heinrich: The agency has taken active steps to confront energy challenges. Last month, ferc issued orders requiring owners to justify or proposed changes to their current tariffs with respect to large load customers. These steps can help protect consumers and encourage grid operators to integrate new advanced technologies when adding new large loads to the grid.
▶ 0:40:59Sen. Heinrich: Commissioner --ferc is an important step in the right direction. More action can and should be taken to ensure consumers are protected from sky high costs associated with data centers, manufacturers, and other large loads. I have been working on a bill intended to do that and hope to speak more about that soon.
▶ 0:41:26Sen. Heinrich: All of these efforts I mentioned will be meaningless if the independence of ferc is a raised. The supreme court decision has put the impartiality of independent agencies at risk. Now more than ever, ferc's mission and not unduly discriminatory or preferential is critical to making sure millions of americans can keep their lights on.
▶ 0:41:54Sen. Heinrich: During this once in a generation moment, I believe regulatory certainty and the freedom from commissioners of independent agencies like ferc to act in a way to provide that certainty will be critical in meeting the energy challenges of today. I hope to discuss these issues with each of you during this hearing and very much look forward to it. Thank you, Mr. chairman.
▶ 0:42:15Chair Lee: Thank you, senator heinrich. We will turn to the commissioners today to give opening statements. Your full statements will be entered into the record. We will begin with chairman laura swett. The senate confirmed chairman swett back in october of 2025.
▶ 0:42:38Chair Lee: Prior to that she served at ferc has a legal advisor to two commissioners, and litigated the natural gas act. Chairman, you are recognized for your opening statement.
▶ 0:42:52Chair Swett: Thank you, chairman lee, ranking member heinrich, members of the committee to testify today. My testimony -- affordability, efficiency, and durability. For many households utility bills are debilitating with consequences. I understand this firsthand from my childhood.
▶ 0:43:18Chair Swett: Monthly bills caused deep anxiety when I was a child and I carried the weight of that financial stress with me every day when I leave this agency. It informs my resolve to ensure families across the country don't have that same burden shouldering unnecessary costs. As electricity demand accelerates, the commission is acting decisively to ensure the grid remains reliable and affordable. For too long this country has deferred critical decisions essential to maintaining the grid and that era has ended.
▶ 0:43:47Chair Swett: The response ability to steer our country through the energy future is squarely upon me and my four colleagues. The commission's actions under my leadership reflect an unwavering commitment to our statutory obligations to ensure a and reasonable rates. At no point in its history has ferc advance to more copperheads have set of reforms designed to safeguard american consumers, nor been subject to leadership is consumed with honoring the law as I am.
▶ 0:44:17Chair Swett: From aggressively modernizing natural gas permitting to instituting far-reaching transparency requirements in our june orders, we are executing a disciplined strategy to reduce costs while reinforcing reliability and encouraging infrastructure investment. That is a tough needle to thread and I'm committed to doing it. At our june meeting we took bold action to strengthen cost discipline and reliability.
▶ 0:44:41Chair Swett: You have mentioned that we ordered the six jurisdictional electric marcus to produce the most detailed cost transparency measures the commission has ever required. Those actions should equip our state counterparts who are responsible for doling out household bills with tools to assess the expenditures, defend ratepayers and ensure emerging low drivers -- load drivers do not justify costs on houses and businesses.
▶ 0:45:11Chair Swett: We have established transparent protective rules for integrating new loads quickly without compromising the reliability. Still in the vein of affordability, one of the most effective ways to lower energy prices is to eliminate infrastructure constraints that artificially restrict supply. Recent extreme weather events show this clearly. The regions I don't have enough gas pipeline capacity experienced prices many times higher than those with sufficient infrastructure. These disparities translate directly to consumer hardship.
▶ 0:45:43Chair Swett: In response the commission implemented targeted reforms to streamline permitting and accelerate project of element. Following the seven county decision and under my leadership, we are realigning our environmental review practices with the commission's statutory as a regulator, a fact that has been lost on several of my predecessors.
▶ 0:46:05Chair Swett: Ferc has proposed expanding blanket authorizations for routine pipeline activities, initiated parallel efforts for allergy and hydropower to ensure these projects can move quickly without burdensome case-specific reviews. Based on decades of experience. These three informs -- these reforms and deliberate recalibration of our processes will reduce administrative friction while preserving full statutory compliance.
▶ 0:46:36Chair Swett: More energy means lower bills. We are moving fast but maintaining regulatory excellence so those investing in and building infrastructure are less vulnerable to judicial review through excellent orders and the associated gridlock and wasted resources that come with orders that are not. In closing, the work ahead demands clarity, urgency, and strong leadership. Our systems are changing faster than ever and the choices we make now will determine whether the nation is prepared for the coming decades.
▶ 0:47:04Chair Swett: We have taken meaningful steps but the path forward requires sustained resolve, smarter tools, and dexterity as new technology emerge. In my family had made many sacrifices so that I can realized the honor to guide a country through the next few years and success on the others.
▶ 0:47:27Chair Swett: I take that commitment with great resolve and so long as I am in charge I will push our country to an energy system that is affordable, resilient, and built for the future with a focus and determination an unwavering commitment to the american rate player who depends on us every day. Thank you.
▶ 0:47:45Chair Lee: Thank you, chairman swett. Commissioner david rosner, the former energy analyst at ferc. He was also someone who spent two years detailed to this committee in addition to prior service to the U.S. department of energy. He has served on ferc as a commissioner since 2024, including as chairman for several months in 2025.
▶ 0:48:16Chair Lee: The chair recognizes commissioner david rosner.
▶ 0:48:19Comm. Rosner: Chairman lee, members of the committee, it's an honor to appear before you alongside my colleagues to discuss ferc's work to deliver reliable energy for all americans and our commitment to upholding congress's vision for a bipartisan, independent, resource neutral regular. -- regulator. This mission is increasingly complex to execute.
▶ 0:48:46Comm. Rosner: Energy demand continues to grow at a pace we have not seen any generation, driven by growth in new industries like artificial intelligence, reassuring manufacturing, and increased use of electricity in homes and businesses. We face these challenges at a time when families and small businesses struggle with high prices, especially in the utility bills. While meeting this moment presents challenges, it creates opportunities for us to modernize our nation's energy infrastructure.
▶ 0:49:14Comm. Rosner: Upgrading or energy system is necessary to ensure that every american receives reliable and affordable power and is essential to our country's economic competitiveness and national security. I would like to highlight a few of the specific actions ferc has taken to confront the challenges and realize the opportunities before us. First, we are accelerating the additional new electric generation of all kinds. Building energy resources needed to meet growing demand in reducing consumer costs is my top focus.
▶ 0:49:47Comm. Rosner: We have implemented landmark order number 2023 generator in action form -- reforms and fast-track more than 50 gigawatts of subtle revi power plants -- shovel ready power plants. Second, we are establishing forward-looking grid planning centered around reliability, affordability, and economic growth.
▶ 0:50:14Comm. Rosner: This year, ferc will begin acting on providers proposals to implement order 1920, which modernized long-term transmission planning. When I arrived at when I arrived as a commissioner, this was divided along party lines. Thanks to state engagement and collaborative problem-solving I'm very proud it is bipartisan and unanimously supported. Third, we are emphasizing predict ability, speed, and legal durability for infrastructure permitting.
▶ 0:50:43Comm. Rosner: Since january of 2025, ferc issued over 120 permits for hydropower and natural gas projects, moving from neap of to final permit more than 30% faster than during the last decade. We have done this without compromising quality. Ferc permits have been upheld in court in recent years. Looking to the future, permitting efficiency will become only more essential is demand growth accelerates.
▶ 0:51:10Comm. Rosner: Fourth, we are embracing innovative pathways to power data centers and other large loads while protecting consumers. Over the last year the commission has acted to ensure demand growth leads to a more reliable, affordable, and sustainable grid in america can win the ai race without regular families paying for it. At ferc, this is another top priority. The commission of limited programs to pair new large loads with new generation.
▶ 0:51:37Comm. Rosner: This pairing reduces how much the projects lien on the grid, minimizes the need to construct additional transmission upgrades , and promotes flexible operations and helps ensure new loads pay their fair share. In parallel, more than 30 states have adopted special retail rate structures for large loads. An important complement to ferc action and reminder of the cooperation needed to protect consumers.
▶ 0:52:05Comm. Rosner: Building upon the progress in response to secretary wright, we asked them to modernize their rules for interconnecting large loads. These orders are based upon four key pillars. Protect consumers, enhance transparency, safeguard reliability, and foster innovation. Put simply, the goal is lowering costs, protecting grid reliability in helping new customers and power plants get online faster.
▶ 0:52:37Comm. Rosner: Fifth, we continue to enhance good security and reliability through modernization and flex ability. It's essential we employ 21st century reliability solutions like advanced demand response, dynamic line readings, predictive artificial intelligence, and emerging cybersecurity technologies. Ferc's work includes robust liability standards for large loads.
▶ 0:53:02Comm. Rosner: Sixth, we are focused on affordability and in addition to the temples I mentioned, ferc has approved expanding competitive electric markets in the west and south east which will enable customers access to lower-cost power. We approved a temporary price gap that said consumers more than $25 billion. It is my priority to deliver more examples like this in 2026. I will conclude by highlighting the value of our current consensus-driven mindset.
▶ 0:53:33Comm. Rosner: I'm immensely proud the vast majority of orders have been bipartisan -- bipartisan and unanimous. This consensus ensures regulatory predict ability, legal durability, and strong outcomes for all americans informed by five distinct perspectives on the commissions -- from the commissioners. I'm confident this will continue to labor for the country. Thank you for the opportunity to testify today and I look forward to your questions.
▶ 0:54:00Chair Lee: Thanks so much. Commissioner lindsay see. She became a member of the federal and federal a editorial -- federal energy ventilatory commission in 2024. She argued before the U.S. supreme court at least twice. Before that, she was a litigator in private practice with a law firm of gibson and dunn.
▶ 0:54:32Comm. See: Thank you for inviting me and my fellow commissioners today. Let me also recognize the hundreds of employees whose expertise, integrity and dedication make the commission's possible. I'm honored to serve with their high caliber and the country is better for the work. Energy landscape has changed dramatically since the last time I and two of my colleagues last appeared before this committee and 2024.
▶ 0:55:01Comm. See: Some issues persist but many new ones have risen with striking urgency. All are defined by the overarching reality that america needs more power. Demand growth from the mystic manufacturing, ai data centers and other sectors is an opportunity. A growing load and growing grid are signs of a growing economy. American competitiveness depends on delivering reliable and affordable power.
▶ 0:55:24Comm. See: Ferc needs decisive action within our legal authorities that keeps pace with america's needs. That requires focus on three priorities. Keeping power, keeping electricity affordable, and the kind of certainty that gets steel in the ground. We need processes to get new generation and large new loads connected to the grid quickly and pie flights in transmission they get power where and when it is needed.
▶ 0:55:51Comm. See: Ferc has taken steps to meet these challenges. We have talked about them already. Last month we issued a series of orders that require clear rules for how organized electricity studies and large loads. It's designed to improve transparency, coordination, and speed when it comes to large load interconnection. They also recognize regional differences that are as part of a shared goal of connecting new demand safely and efficiently. We are reforming permitting processes to speed infrastructure review.
▶ 0:56:21Comm. See: We have taken a close look at what nipa and does not require, and cut out unneeded construction delays after review is done. Modernizing permitting can uphold our statutory duties while improving predictability and helping get needed projects bill. We have to keep electricity affordable. Building infrastructure to meet demand is expensive, but is we make investments across electric system we have to give the consumers who pay for that at the center of our decisions.
▶ 0:56:51Comm. See: One path the cost responsibly is an current transmission technologies when they make engineer can economic sense. These technologies can get more out of the existing systems, speed, connection and cuts down on upgrades I would otherwise show up in customer bills. We have to keep a close watch to ensure well-functioning competitive electricity markets. Over time organized markets have delivered real value for consumers. Today's markets were not designed at the pace and scale of modern load growth.
▶ 0:57:20Comm. See: Ferc reviews -- keeping close attention on the regions that have more work ahead. Our guiding tenet should be those who drive cost will benefit from new infrastructure pay their way. I keeping that focus building needed infrastructure and protecting customers can be complementary roles and not competing once. Third,, for regulatory certainty drives infrastructure.
▶ 0:57:47Comm. See: As a lawyer I never forget if orders do not hold up in court, infrastructure does not get built. State utilities and developers need confidence in our regulatory processes. That comes of applying the statute congress enacted with specific records of for it. And he's not hesitating to improve when experience shows we can move faster and in a transparent and legally responsible way. That drive is innovating our recent work and natural gas infrastructure.
▶ 0:58:14Comm. See: And maybe proposed expanding the blanket certificate program by upping cost thresholds and adding new categories for routine project or streamlined review. The goal is to modernize permitting to reflect today's infrastructure and cost responsibility needs while preserving resources for more complex reviews. One of my priorities is expanding that approach to liquefied natural gas infrastructure project category. We are now several months into a process to design a more efficient and predictable program for the lng space that meets our legal response abilities.
▶ 0:58:43Comm. See: We are focused on our hydropower related reviews. Hydro brings critical features to the grid and I support the commission's continued efforts to find opportunities to improve post licensing processes in this important area. Today's energy landscape reveals extraordinary opportunities, but also generational challenges to meet them.
▶ 0:59:03Comm. See: In these areas and others I will be discussing today I respect ferc's duties not to go beyond statutory limits but also not the whole back, exercising the power we have been a moment that requires decisive action. Thank you again for the opportunity to testify today and I'm looking forward to the discussion and questions.
▶ 0:59:21Chair Lee: Thanks so much, commissioner see. Next, commissioner judy chang. Commissioner chang, along with see and rosner has served on ferc since 2024. Prior to that she served in the massachusetts state government as the under secretary of energy and climate solutions and also taught at the kennedy school at harvard university. The chair and I reckon it is commissioner chang.
▶ 0:59:49Comm. Chang: Thank you, chairman lee, ranking member heinrich, and numbers of the committee. Thank you for allowing us to testify today. Since I last appeared before the committee two years ago, the country's energy sector has transformed at a pace that would have previously been unimaginable.
▶ 1:00:09Comm. Chang: From the position at the commission I have focused on setting the rules of the road that ensure our energy system can keep up with the rapid change and continue to deliver affordable and reliable electricity to the american people. I would like to highlight three priorities, set clear rules, upkeep efficient markets, and drive efficient planning and building of infrastructure.
▶ 1:00:36Comm. Chang: First, our most pressing mandate is to set clear rules to enable the interconnection of new large loads and deliver the electricity needed to power them while protecting existing customers against reliability risks and cost shifts. The commission has been tasked with solving this problem and over the last year we have taken action based on the substantial record before us. Last month we reached an important milestone through the initiation of six regional proceedings in which I highlighted a number of important issues.
▶ 1:01:06Comm. Chang: Given the increased cost power of many regions, affordability was w must be top of mind. The commission must ensure creating new pathways for large loads does not lead to major cost shift to existing customers. Although we are improving our understanding of the types of tools that can provide these protections, ultimately the details will matter. In addition, the sheer size of the large computational loads will have major reliability implications for the grid.
▶ 1:01:37Comm. Chang: I will continue to work closely with nerc to understand the risks and make sure they are addressed through appropriate commission action. With every increasing importance in advanced transmission technologies, will play a major role in getting the most out of our existing and expanding grid, which will in turn help ensure affordability and reliability. Overall, the commission has an important responsibility as both the economic and reliability regulator to take actions that protect consumers.
▶ 1:02:07Comm. Chang: Second, as we experienced rapid growth, the commission must work to ensure electricity markets continue to deliver efficiencies for customers. For decades, ferc promoted development of competition in the sectors. I remain fundamentally supportive of those efforts. Our current market structures have been tailored over time to meet each region's specific needs but must adapt to changes underway.
▶ 1:02:37Comm. Chang: In the eastern interconnection , markets must find ways to keep up with demand by modifying capacity, energy, and ancillary services markets to provide the right signals for a new generation and preserve needed existing resources. On the demand side, by enabling more savings through increased participation of the resources.
▶ 1:03:01Comm. Chang: New markets are taking shape that may present more complex designs, scenes, and dynamics to resolve than eastern counterparts. One of my priorities is to work closely with the market operators in the western stakeholders to identify and address those challenges to optimize operations and prevent potential manipulation. Third, the commission must continue to set clear rules and regulations so the infrastructure needed to support the economic growth can be built.
▶ 1:03:32Comm. Chang: More focus is needed on planning. Particularly on the backbone transmission system through regional and interregional processes. Porter 1920 set the appropriate approach for regions to reach agreement on the long-term trajectory of great growth and cost allocation. I'm looking forward to seeing that the compliance process has begun and working with my colleagues to implement those reforms.
▶ 1:03:56Comm. Chang: The commission has prominent roles in citing hydroelectric and natural gas infrastructure and we are looking for efficiencies that will facilitate the permitting of next generation energy projects. We can gain most efficiency by insuring the rules and responsibilities are clear from the outset and our decisions are legally durable and account for people who live near the projects.
▶ 1:04:20Comm. Chang: Making the appropriate process changes can improve access to energy which in turn improves energy affordability and reliability. I hope the commission can continue to be good partners to states and regional entities in this effort. Again, thank you for the opportunity to testify and I'm happy to answer questions. Thank you.
▶ 1:04:40Chair Lee: Thank you. I will turn to Mr. lacerte, who come with a distinguished career in public service at the state and federal level, and also from service in the marine corps. Mr. lacerte, your remarks please.
▶ 1:04:59Comm. Lacerte: It is good to be back before you begin. It's been a few short months since I was last here. I was beginning to wonder whether you missed me or not so it's good to be back. Is my honor to serve the american people by implement think the commission's statutory mandate to ensure reasonable rates for the desk for reliable electricity, and license nonfederal hydropower facilities.
▶ 1:05:28Comm. Lacerte: I'm thankful that the senate confirmed by appointment to serve on the commission for a subsequent five-year term. I would like to speak on our accomplishments since I joined and address my priorities. I will discusswhy believe congress should effectively -- effectuate important reform. I will repeat the sentiments on the june open meeting where the commission took bold action and issued six show cause orders to the rto's and iso's in the commission.
▶ 1:06:01Comm. Lacerte: To either show cause whether current tariffs do not need to be reformed or file reforms to ensure large loads such as data centers can connect to the transmission system in a swift manner. The show cause orders directly operators to ensure such reforms insulate customers from undue costs stemming from the interconnection of data centers. As I have told this body, my place is to keep costs top of mind and I will do so as I review the responses to the show cause orders.
▶ 1:06:31Comm. Lacerte: This commission continues to permit projects and issues such authorizations in a and legally durable manner. At a time when energy demand is rising, reliability challenges are mounting, the commission acted with efficiency and urgency. The commission has issued 15% more orders over the same time period from 2025. We have voted on 720 proceedings and authorize the addition of approximate 13.4 million deco thermos for day of natural gas transportation capacity.
▶ 1:07:00Comm. Lacerte: Enough to enough h for that electricity needs for 60 million households. That's enough to power every household in all states represented by the members of his body and 20 million more americans. The commission has certified roughly 980,000 deco firms of stores delivered ability which provides a critical safety net can help balance spikes, and ensure reliability.
▶ 1:07:29Comm. Lacerte: I will continue my steadfast focus on removing distractions and extra traditional cyclists and strict alignment with congress to ensure the commission expeditiously reviews all matters before us and the fpa and nga. One relates to how the commission reforms --performs its response building under nepa . State and federal reviews have bogged down infrastructure to the detriment of our nation and environment. We are looking at ways to streamline the process.
▶ 1:08:01Comm. Lacerte: As I said, we will implement changes to the way we evaluate projects against the environmental backdrop as appropriate and in such a way to ensure the analysis actually informs the commission's evaluation of the project at hand rather than wading into quicksand. We will fulfill the requirements under nepa but in a way that is consistent with the contextual focused on the proposed action.
▶ 1:08:32Comm. Lacerte: Affordability and reliability are my top commitments and must not come at the expense of ordinary americans who are already concerned about energy needs. Although the commission can take action to ensure america's position to win the challenges of the century, we need help from congress. Permit a statute must be designed to ensure responsible infrastructure development and not stymie it. I'm of the opinion that permitting form must be enacted by the 119th congress.
▶ 1:09:01Comm. Lacerte: I have witnessed firsthand how difficult it is for companies to invest in our infrastructure. I approach the responsibly of commission of diligence and dependence and a clear understanding of who I serve, the american people. It's an honor to serve on this commission. Thank you to the committee for bringing us together today to discuss these important issues and oversight. The only way we win in the american people win is by coming together and crafting solutions to the promise of forest. I look forward to answering your questions.
▶ 1:09:30Chair Lee: Thanks so much, commissioner lacerte. I had to step up briefly. When you first start to watch proceedings in the senate they can look chaotic. When you watch them more, they look even more chaotic. Sometimes we have multiple committees going on at once, multiple committees voting at the same time. There are rigid quorum requirements so that is why we sometimes have to bounce in and out. We will now begin our five-minute rounds of questions.
▶ 1:10:02Chair Lee: I will begin. Commissioner -- chairman swett, I would like to begin with you. Last month ferc took bold action to address issues related to interconnection of data centers to the grid.
▶ 1:10:21Chair Lee: Your orders were designed to ensure that each region will be able to take its own approach to prevent data centers from raising costs to regular consumers. That also seeks to modernize the electricity sector, which is operated under the same regulatory paradigm for many decades.
▶ 1:10:46Chair Lee: Even as technology has changed, even when population centers and electricity demand patterns have evolved significantly. Can you explain how you intend to use these orders to help modernize electricity markets and usher in a new era of innovation into the electricity sector.
▶ 1:11:07Chair Swett: Modernizing and innovation are the goal of those orders. I am pleased that has come through. It is very clear after my decade and a half of litigating ferc law that utilities and markets do not want to change, with the exception of a few, and it requires aggressive instruction for them to innovate. These june orders are the perfect vehicle for us to employ the market experts, the markets themselves, in order to push the grid into the future.
▶ 1:11:38Chair Swett: We are accomplishing that through some main tenets, which is first, we have directed fast timeline and of transmission services and also the study processes are jurisdictional markets employ.
▶ 1:11:55Chair Swett: This will save consumers a lot of money and with our instructions they are now in the markets forced to consider advanced transmission technologies in their study processes and also to study load that may appear in your generation which will reduce the amount of transmission necessary to get the load online. These are innovations that are not necessarily considered across the country. Some markets have proposed some type of them but we are prompting them on a shot clock to do it.
▶ 1:12:24Chair Swett: The third component was that we are forcing more accountability to solve the generation issue. You will know that ferc has no jurisdiction over generation but because we directed each market to come back to us with reporting on what they intend to do and how to handle this generation cliff we are standing on as a nation, that is forcing thought and hopefully action. Together these tight timelines and instructions should bring our grid to the future.
▶ 1:12:56Chair Lee: Based on the interconnectedness of generation and transmission. That makes sense. Commissioner chang, ferc order 1000th was issued by the commission in 2011. The goal was to usher in more competition in the electric power sector.
▶ 1:13:19Chair Lee: Particularly by identifying regional transmission upgrades to be made and ensuring those selected projects were awarded through a competitive process. A decade and a half later, ferc order 1000 has not yet materialized. What else do you think the commission can do to bring more competitive pressure into the electricity sector in a way that is likely to improve conditions, including prices and reliability for consumers?
▶ 1:13:50Chair Lee: What action can congress take to be helpful?
▶ 1:13:53Comm. Chang: Thank you for the question. I think I want to first highlight what you already said, which is the intent of order 1000 regarding competitive transmission has not materialized. There are some regions that have definitely spent the last decade or so implementing competitive processes.
▶ 1:14:15Comm. Chang: But to actually bring efficiencies and cost savings to consumers, those processes are really just beginning to bring some benefits to the grid. I do think that we should find additional efficiencies through competition where it is possible.
▶ 1:14:39Comm. Chang: As you probably heard from my opening statement, the backbone transmission system is extremely important in integrating the large loads we are seeing and the large generation we are adding to the system. To bring down the cost to all consumers requires competition. I hope that order 1000 and the original goals of order 1000 can be materialized in the future.
▶ 1:15:09Chair Lee: Thank you. Commissioner lacerte, it is fair to say that natural gas is a key element. Backbone, semi-sake cornerstone or keystone of a reliable, portable electric car grid. This commission has been moving quickly to help get needed infrastructure approved based on this understanding.
▶ 1:15:35Chair Lee: Would you walk the committee through ferc's recent accomplishments on natural gas come the certificates and capacity of approved, steps taken to speed up reviews and what that might mean for consumers?
▶ 1:15:49Mr. Lacerte: Absolutely. First, could take a look at how we survived the recent winter storms, performance of natural gas compared other sources. It is easy to see the way of the future how we power the country through the future is with natural gas. The economists at ferc have been clear with additional supplies, abundant natural gas, will help drive prices lower.
▶ 1:16:20Mr. Lacerte: You're going increase supply, increased opportunities for consumers to utilize it. Especially in the municipally owned utility space. Some of these municipal governments are captive by one single pipeline, which they get their rates from.
▶ 1:16:32Mr. Lacerte: If we can increase competition for natural gas, especially amongst municipally owned utilities, I think we'll see prices go down and see investments in our infrastructure, syria ensuring of industry, c -- er onshoring of industry. And responsive way that protects the consumers. We are doing that right now in a bipartisan way with all five commissioners.
▶ 1:16:56Chair Lee: Center heinrich.
▶ 1:16:58Sen. Heinrich: Thank you, chairman. I was pleased to hear commissioner see, commissioner chang, and chairwoman sweat all mentioned advanced transmission technologies we had we all know there have not always been the built-in economic incentives to put some of those things under the grid despite the fact they can all -- often have very outsized and efficient impacts
▶ 1:17:30Sen. Heinrich: On how utilize the existing grid in a way that doesn't require enormous economic upgrades. I wanted to ask if you wanted to add anything to that conversation and also what would be helpful from congress in terms of congressional action to reinforce a posture of incentivizing these technologies?
▶ 1:18:02Sen. Heinrich: Commissioner see, do you attach up on that first? You are the first to mention it.
▶ 1:18:06Ms. See: Happy too. I think when we look at our reliability to affordably challenges, it is necessary we need for structure and that is expensive. But there is also a really important moment for us to make the most out of the existing infrastructure and that is when these technologies can be incredibly helpful. They are not always the best solution but they are and can give significant speed and cost savings to customers.
▶ 1:18:33Ms. See: I was grateful my colleagues and I were able to come together and include more language about that and the 206 orders we talked about debenture utilities take a hard look at these options when they're considering transition upgrades. In terms of what more can be done, ferc has limited authority so we could encourage, incentivize, but if congress -- if this is an issue congress was to take up, I would love us to write in this direction because I think it can be so helpful for both reliability and affordability.
▶ 1:19:01Sen. Heinrich: Very.
▶ 1:19:07Ms. Swett: I fully agree with you and commissioner see on this one. We are looking at gets from every angle and we recently had a software congress where I had a panel added to have panelists specifically who have expressed lamenting gets in their markets to see how that is playing out the economics associated with it. I think it is getting a lot of traction.
▶ 1:19:30Ms. Swett: The biggest barrier comment as your question, the federal power act prohibits ferc illicitly from mandating building of any particular transmission facility except for the backstop citing authority. It is my personal opinion is a lawyer that gets fall under that category. Until congress changes that prohibition, ferc is not really able to instruct anything more aggressively.
▶ 1:19:57Sen. Heinrich: But you can force the analysis, which can then show the most efficient economic path.
▶ 1:20:05Ms. Swett: And we have require that type --.
▶ 1:20:09Sen. Heinrich: I think that is been helpful.
▶ 1:20:12Ms. Chang: Thank you for that question. I, too, support the use of advanced transmission technology -- more than support. I think it is time we take pilot projects in the industry takes pilot projects and really implement the most advanced technologies to save consumers money. If the U.S. wants to be the leader in technology, this is another set of technology we can lead in the industry.
▶ 1:20:41Ms. Chang: When it comes to certainly I think if congress wants to work on this, we would be very happy to implement any particular changes. Under the current authority, when transmission owners and developers come to ferc and request for incentives, I think there is some room for ferc to ask the mission owners and developers to demonstrate and illustrate order to explain what
▶ 1:21:11Ms. Chang: Technologies there implementing and what else they have considered and why they're not adopting the best technologies.
▶ 1:21:17Sen. Heinrich: I appreciate that. According to national laboratory, at the end of 2025, there were more than 8200 proposed power plants trying to connect to the grid. But only 13% of the capacity that has attempted to get on the grid between 2000 2020 has actually reached commercial operation.
▶ 1:21:41Sen. Heinrich: I recently introduced the grid management act which would allow generators to interconnect even faster to the grid. I went ask you, commissioner rosner, what steps beyond should ferc take to further improve generator interconnection processes and in particular do you want to speak -- you mentioned automation, ai tools. I think that is a space that we are just beginning to see the potential of.
▶ 1:22:12Sen. Heinrich: So if you could touch on that I would appreciate it.
▶ 1:22:14Mr. Rosner: Thank you for the question. It is obvious to me there is a huge opportunity to be smarter about how we run our interconnection processes. The texas model is one example. Limiting automation on a recurring cluster study process is another example.
▶ 1:22:36Mr. Rosner: The spp region, we had a proposal from them that they brought to us with unanimous support from their states that reimagined how to do both generator connection and transmission planning together. But back on automation, there's a huge opportunity.
▶ 1:22:54Mr. Rosner: Their old way with pen and paper and engineers during the powerful studies, it took them 686 days processor 2021 cluster, over 100 gigawatts generation using automation, the new way, less than 10 days. There is open public benchmarking on how well this work. It was very, very close and continues to get better.
▶ 1:23:21Mr. Rosner: From my perspective, this is all about let's give applicants, people who want to connect to the grid, let's give them the answer on whether it makes sense to connect to the grid in that location or not. I would not be doing my job if I did not already say, appreciate your leadership on transmission, regional, intraregional. None of these reforms work if there isn't a grid to plug the power plant into. We can talk more about some examples of how that has network so will recently and that is a huge problem.
▶ 1:23:50Chair Lee: Sinner brosseau.
▶ 1:23:53Sen. Barrasso: I want to talk about the seminal pump storage project which is in the state of wyoming. On june 12, ferc seven each of the recommended final environment impact statement for the seminal pump storage project. This is a private project and it would create water pump storage infrastructure above seminal reservoir, which is in central wyoming. Functionally, the project works as a battery with about the capacity of -- efficiency of about 70%.
▶ 1:24:25Sen. Barrasso: It uses power to pump water into storage and that it sells the power at a profit when the grid needs electricity. Wyoming constituents that I have heard from have concerns read they worry the project harms the only disease-free bighorn sheep heard in the state and critical mule deer habitat. They also worry victims one of the most legendary trout fisheries in wyoming in the world.
▶ 1:24:51Sen. Barrasso: It is known as the miracle mile but it is over five miles, a stretch of the north platte river between the seminole reservoir and the pathfinder reservoir. This is an area that must be protected. The project received its water quality permit from the state. Their concerns about wildlife that had not yet been resolved in the recommended environment impact statement. The state's comments on the project which I have here and Mr. chairman would like to enter these in the hearing record without objection. Thank you.
▶ 1:25:23Sen. Barrasso: It is critically important that wyoming's concerns are thoughtfully and carefully considered in this process. So, madame chairman, I would ask you and others if you would commit to taking a renewed look at the state's comments and consider their incorporation into her final decision.
▶ 1:25:39Ms. Swett: Thank you for the question. I know these types of projects have great impact on community. There are emotional for both sides. I am fully committed to making a measured decision based on the record and working with your staff to arrive at the right choice for the america people.
▶ 1:25:59Sen. Barrasso: Anyone else what to weigh in on this?
▶ 1:26:04Ms. Chang: Perhaps I could at is hydropower is an actually valuable resource including the seminoe project and I, too, will commit to making sure the state's comets are considered in the record.
▶ 1:26:17Sen. Barrasso: Western electricity markets are evolving rapidly, as you know. This comes from the implementation of a new day had markets. It comes from the new regional organization for western energy and southwest power pools expansion to the west. The goal is unified incarnated electricity transmission. While participation in this new model can be a good thing, states like oilman a meaningful voice in governance.
▶ 1:26:46Sen. Barrasso: Wyoming is an everyone electricity exporter in the western interconnection. The highest net exports of energy per capita. That makes wyoming the backbone of the grade. What steps are ferc taking to make sure meaningful state participation is extended they had market in western energy and balance markets evolve?
▶ 1:27:05Ms. Swett: As the core principle, leadership, I take our country's system of federalism very seriously. State voices must be heard and I think I have shown I really do care about states orders in june where we carved out specific transparency to give our state counterparts the tools they need to ensure the markets worked correctly.
▶ 1:27:30Ms. Swett: And that commitment I have made in those orders, I commit to you as well in the other parts of the country that are not covered by them, particularly, when it comes to the west we are watching very closely as those margin -- markets evolve. We ordered them to come back to us with a report on how the seam is going to work and what issues they see arising so that we can all land this ship together. The states are certainly a huge part of that. So I committed taking their concerns very seriously.
▶ 1:28:01Sen. Barrasso: Anyone else want to respond?
▶ 1:28:05Mr. Lacerte: Any western states reached out last week after our order to require spp and kiesel work together and report back to us on the seams issue. I think it favorably involves the states. Eiffel lockstep with the chairman and the rest of the commissioners.
▶ 1:28:27Mr. Lacerte: >> we strongly respect autonomy but once those are formed, we texas circe responsibly to ensure just and reasonable rates and fully effective market and an important part of that is who has a voice in their market and those decisions. I take the state voice very seriously.
▶ 1:28:44Chair Lee: Thank you. We will go next to senator king.
▶ 1:28:50Sen. King: First I want to thank you for modeling how government is supposed to work. This commission has worked together very effectively without reference to partisan interests. The six orders you issued in june I think were a model of prudent regulation and exercising of the powers you have under the federal power act we had thank you. It is not often you get that kind -- I just wanted to share that.
▶ 1:29:25Sen. King: There has been a lot of talk about gets. Always show what it is really about. This is a typical high tension transmission piece of wire. This is a carbon fiber based transmission wire. This one carries twice the power this one does.
▶ 1:29:47Sen. King: So you can replace your conductor without new polls, without new right-of-way, not a lot of new works and double the capacity so that is really what we talking about here. Chair swett, I understand you cannot mandate technology, but your responsibility is just and reasonable rates.
▶ 1:30:11Sen. King: It seems to me at the transmission folks are taking actions that don't make economic sense and will penalize their ratepayers, that does give you a hook to look more carefully at how they actually do it. Having said all that, I think one of the things that can be helpful to us is how do we incentivize these kinds of decisions? Because right now the incentive on the transmission developer is to invest.
▶ 1:30:40Sen. King: They make a rate of return on the amount of money that of capital they put in. That is incentive to gold plate, to build more than you really need to build. And it is a disincentive to do something like this. I think one of the things we need to look at is how do we provide shared savings, for example, or some kind of incentive to the companies to make these kinds of investments?
▶ 1:31:04Sen. King: Because the cost of the grid enhancement is going up in a huge way over the next several years. It is gone from about 30% of electric bills to 40% or 50% today. This cost is going to be overwhelming in the next five or 10 years if we don't do it in a smart way. I commend you for what you're doing, but I hope you'll will think about how the incentives and also a little more leeway on just and reasonable rates.
▶ 1:31:33Ms. Swett: Thank you, senator. I am absolutely thinking about that. I have convened a task force and commission of some of our best thinkers to think about the gets issue and how we can encourage it further, including potential incentives, which have to be landed squarely to show they will result in cost savings to american ratepayers.
▶ 1:31:56Ms. Swett: You a lot of utilities across the country who have proactively started employing gets and now we have some of the data from the cost savings of those specific technologies are able to produce for those utilities and their customers. So ferc staff is working with those trying to understand the real-life results and trying to figure out if there is a way that we can incentivize the increased use of g.e.t.s.
▶ 1:32:23Ms. Swett: Outside of even our june orders for filings, utilities to come in and show how much cost savings the technologies they're looking at can bring to their consumers. That is definitely a path forward we are open to and actively pursuing.
▶ 1:32:40Sen. King: I hope the other thing will pursue, commissioner rosner you mention this, the encouragement of the use of -- we are saying automation but it is really ai in resolving the backlogs in the queue because that is a huge problem. Restate the numbers you gave from the number of days down to 10 days we had Mr. rosner: in my so, the midwest, their old way, 686 days. The new way, less than 10 days.
▶ 1:33:09Sen. King: That speaks for itself. I hope again you will figure out ways to incentivize that kind of activity. One way to do it is to say, look, if you do it the old way, you're not imposing just and reasonable rates on your ratepayers. That is one of your basic responsibilities. I want to say quick word about permitting reform. I have been involved in the discussions here, I'm a former developer, I get it, I understand the problems with permitting.
▶ 1:33:37Sen. King: But permitting reform for me has to involve an evenhanded process throughout get one of the problems we have right now is we could have all the permitting reform in the world, but this administration has its thumb on the scale of renewables. So there's no point in having -- it would be like two racers going along and one has their 100 yard dash and the other has her hurdle at the end. Secretary of the interior has, I don't know, 100 projects, wind and solar, sitting on his desk.
▶ 1:34:06Sen. King: The army -- military clearinghouse on wind projects as I think 185 projects that have just been arbitrarily stopped without any rationale, without any explanation. I am all for permitting reform, but not if it is -- it ends as a practical matter only reforming the permitting for fossil fuels and the opportunity for renewables -- which by the way are the cheapest and fastest to
▶ 1:34:36Sen. King: Market of any energy source today unless the plane felt as level, count me out. Thank you.
▶ 1:34:44Chair Lee: Thank you so much. We will turn next to -- >> we are at a critical juncture for powering our country and the vestments we know it will determine whether america's manufacturing and technology future is built here or somewhere else. Right now demand for electricity is growing faster than at any point and decades and supply as we've established is not keeping pace.
▶ 1:35:13Chair Lee: Two forces are driving this parade first, the aggravation that is changing the way we work from operate, creating new jobs and opportunities. And companies are bringing manufacturing back to the united states instead of overseas. That is great news for america but only if we have the power to run these operations that come with each of them. While states like york and york are shutting down, I am proud to report pennsylvania remains a net energy exporter. The nation's third-largest energy producer.
▶ 1:35:42Chair Lee: Pennsylvania's powering manufacturing the revolution in our nation's defense? Billy's all at once. We must do more. A brief look at the scale of this challenge shows us for nearly 20 years, power demand was flat, nearly half a percent growth annually. 2020-2026, we saw electricity demand grow by an average of 1.7% per year. By 2030, our literacy demand could jump 20%. Think about that.
▶ 1:36:11Chair Lee: In 10 years, from half a percent growth for 20% rated r supply is nowhere close to keeping up we had earlier this year, bank of america reported the U.S. could face a shortfall of 100 gigawatts between 2026 and 2030. Closer to home, this all comes to rest in pennsylvania at the pjm intersection which serves my home state of pennsylvania. Their most recent auction came up low the reserve virgin targets.
▶ 1:36:37Chair Lee: I applied to apply the great, can conduct that we need to do more. The demand is coming with advanced manufacturing ai pulling it forward quickly and we need to get more electrons on the grid. Which leads me to questions focus on pjm l read I will start with the chairwoman britt tomorrow, ferc will convene a compass to discuss ways to improve the governance is to color processes. Including their ability to address market needs in a timely and efficient manner.
▶ 1:37:07Chair Lee: Could you elaborate on why this conference is needed and some of the governance and stakeholder challenges that ferc and pjm hope to address?
▶ 1:37:16Ms. Swett: My favorite topic. Thank you for the question. I don't need to tell you pjm powers the homes of 67 million americans. As a largest and oldest market in the country, it is probably performing the worst. I am very concerned. That is why we are convening this conference tomorrow. It is not necessarily pjm's fault. We don't want to point fingers.
▶ 1:37:47Ms. Swett: A lot of the reason for the tech conference tomorrow is because I am a litigator. I want a record on what the problems are and what the solutions are. So we have instructed the people who we have handpicked and chosen all of our panelists tomorrow based on what they will bring to the table for solutions, and that is at every level. The federal level, state-level, utilities transmission owners, hyper scalars -- all types of market participants.
▶ 1:38:14Ms. Swett: We are optimistic that people will be able to coalesce around identifying what should change in the market by the end of tomorrow and the comments filed after so we can give clear direction and success to me looks like pjm in the near future that is able to propose solutions quickly with some type of member support that is clear and to make those filings excellent so we can move
▶ 1:38:44Ms. Swett: Expediently to have this market serve the country efficiently.
▶ 1:38:49Sen. Mccormick: As a follow-up, one of the concerns we have as an exporter within pjm, decisions made within pjm increasingly have enormous consequences for ratepayers and we want to ensure no single state, individual state, can distort the regional market in a way that disadvantages pennsylvania's consumers and ratepayers.
▶ 1:39:16Sen. Mccormick: Can you comment on how ferc might play a role in ensuring that does not happen?
▶ 1:39:21Mr. Rosner: Thank you for the question. I agree with your focus on pjm and looking forward to the conference tomorrow. I will just a few things. First of all, making sure all customers across pjm are treated fairly and that they pay for the power they receive in a way that is transparent and consistent with our cost causation rules.
▶ 1:39:46Mr. Rosner: That is what -- that is one of my goals and that is how we will review future proposals from pjm. The other thing I would just say is I think it is very good and it is the appropriate time to have this conversation about governance of pjm. I don't want to lose sight of the fact it does save consumers billions every year in terms of efficient operating -- operation of the whole grid.
▶ 1:40:19Mr. Rosner: Efficient planning of the transmission system. But also, none of that works if you don't have by and from states. One of my priorities throughout the commission's work is that we set the market rules and that results in price signals to invest. But none of that goes anywhere if the states don't believe in the way that price was derived.
▶ 1:40:41Mr. Rosner: On the transmission side of the coin, we set the rules about how you plan the grid and one of the things that I push for an order 1920 was let's have the states come to the table and agree on the scenario, the way we plan that transmission, the way the cost of that transmission is paid for -- it seems like common sense to me that states and the utility should agree on this.
▶ 1:41:03Mr. Rosner: That is where I push to make ferc regulations involve the states more because, ultimately, we depend on the states to get the permits to build power plants, transmission lines, to do all those things. We have talked a lot about grid efficiency and g.e.t.s. An advance transmission technologies. Not only is that going to save people money, but also when we do need to build something, americans -- consumers are smart. They want to know that you really needed that wire before you put a new wire in.
▶ 1:41:35Mr. Rosner: Those wires or pipelines or whatever, power plants, they have big impacts. We need to show people and be transparent that we tried every thing we could. We got every last ounce of efficiency of the grid.
▶ 1:41:48Sen. Mccormick: Thank you.
▶ 1:41:49Chair Lee: Sen. cortez masto:.
▶ 1:41:54Sen. Cortez Masto: , thank you for being here. You're going to talk about the growing hydro demand and your own data shows increased demand for hydro licensing activities in the next decade. With more than 40% of the nonfederal hydropower fleet due to be relicensed, I think by 2035. For that reason senator daines and I reckon together and introduced s3500, the hydropower licensing transparency act.
▶ 1:42:23Sen. Cortez Masto: It requires annual ferc reports to congress on pending projects and action plans. I know last year ferc sought public feedback on methods to streamline its review of hydropower facilities. I was wondering maybe commissioner see, can you give us a report on that? Maybe up-to-date where you are with that particular --
▶ 1:42:48Ms. See: I am happy to. I agree with you those statistics about the amount of work coming in is sobering. In order to keep this critical resource online and 70 parts of the country. We take that seriously. And really welcome more leadership and others in congress for a kind of guilty from us and ways we can continue to streamline the process. We are hard at work at that. As you are well aware, our review was expensive considering a huge range of factors. We need to do that job well.
▶ 1:43:18Ms. See: I believe the best kind of permitting is transparent and efficient and legally durable. Part of what we are in the process on right now is we asked for comment about ways we can learn from lessons of permitting should lining the natural gas context and how potentially could we apply a blanket program into the hydro area.
▶ 1:43:35Ms. See: That is still ongoing so I can't talk about where we're ultimately going to go, but I can tell you that is something top of mind for us is to figure out are there types of routine projects or changes or amendments that do not need a full case specific review and can have a more streamline processes to comply with our statutory responsibilities? That is a program that has been effective for decades on the natural gas side.
▶ 1:43:57Ms. See: The statutes are different but we have decades of experience within the commission that we are really leveraging to figure out, how do we take those lessons and bring it to streamlining?
▶ 1:44:07Sen. Cortez Masto: Will the public have input?
▶ 1:44:11Ms. See: Absolutely. We have already sought comment on the initial processes, and as the commission moves forward, there would also be a public comment from us to make sure test process to make sure we are considering --.
▶ 1:44:25Sen. Cortez Masto: Can you give us a broad timeline?
▶ 1:44:28Ms. See: I can't speak to internal timeframe. We're still working on that. I can tell you it is something -- it is top of mind for us. I know I talk about it all the time we have our updates with other offices and across the agency.
▶ 1:44:43Sen. Cortez Masto: I also want to commend you on the work you are doing to address incumbent marketing ablation fraud we had I thank you for that collective work. I understand -- I think it was mentioned in the opening that in april, ferc issued a penalty order and its action against merck and efficient after uncovering what they described as one of the largest and most brazen fraud schemes in its history. I thank you for that.
▶ 1:45:12Sen. Cortez Masto: I am curious, maybe chairman swett, if you could speak to other efforts to combat market manipulation? And also know that to assist in your enforcement efforts, senator cantwell and I introduced legislation. We both were very concerned in the past, coming from the state of nevada, that market manipulation, that we have seen in the past -- we reintroduced it from the energy consumer protection act.
▶ 1:45:43Sen. Cortez Masto: It gives ferc authority to find those who repeatedly many polite electricity and natural gas markets. If you could talk a little about your focus in this space?
▶ 1:45:52Ms. Swett: Thank you for the question. I was in person prosecutor at ferc. As a baby lawyer who grew up in the ferc enforcement office, they have a fond place in my heart. I know how diligent this stuff works come how passionate they are. I share that passion. When we are facing increasing energy bills in this country, there is absolutely no room for fraud. There was before but now every single penny matters.
▶ 1:46:21Ms. Swett: I take the enforcement program very seriously. I am very supportive of it. I was truly proud issued the biggest penalty in ferc history under my 10 year -- tenure and that is a signal that type of market many relation and activity will not be consonance by this commission under my leadership. We are looking at enforcement program with fresh eyes to look at what type of training they be helpful for them.
▶ 1:46:47Ms. Swett: Estimate who is work in private practice, I've had a lot of litigation training and I am very aware of how training can improve the quality of work. My goal for enforcement program is excellence. I have very high standards for the cases we bring. In the rigor with which the staff defends them. I am very personally involved in activities.
▶ 1:47:05Sen. Cortez Masto: I know some point in time I would like to -- maybe we will sum it is for the record. I am concerned about staffing, brain drain, loss of staff whether it is doge or other issues causing it. I would like to hear so we will submit that for the record as well, where we can help in congress to address this issue if it is an issue.
▶ 1:47:24Chair Lee: Senator hyde-smith.
▶ 1:47:28Sen. Hyde-Smith: Thank you all for being here today. Being so committed and dedicated . I certainly appreciate that. We talk a lot about affordability. In your testimonies and written statements, it was one of the top priorities. This administration and this commission from you continue to take action to be conscious of that that ratepayers are not burdened by the higher cost.
▶ 1:47:58Sen. Hyde-Smith: In mississippi, my home state, it continues to be at the forefront of safeguarding ratepayers by ensuring companies like data centers pay their fair share for large loads. I want to talk about the large load rates we had states are passing legislation that these companies have to pay upfront, anticipated additional cost because they are just preparing themselves for that.
▶ 1:48:23Sen. Hyde-Smith: What mechanisms is ferc and limiting specifically for large load customers to pay upfront payments and commitments to maintain minimum financial contributions to keep the rates from rising? Anybody that was to take that, or all of you can take that.
▶ 1:48:44Ms. Swett: I'll take the first crack. Our approach to that issue, which is squarely in front of us this country and also raised by the president and his pledge, is a twofold approach. We are casting a wide net across the country which we have all talked about in our june orders. I'm happy to get into that in more detail if you would like. Before I do that, we are also looking at the minutia.
▶ 1:49:09Ms. Swett: We have agreements filed with us across the country from various utilities in large load arrangements on almost a daily basis with their proposing deals and interconnection arrangements that implicate hundreds of lines of dollars. We look at those arrangements with a fine tooth comb to ensure that the upgrades that are required by large load is not shouldered by consumers.
▶ 1:49:36Ms. Swett: We look at it on a case-by-case basis and also across the markets. >> thank you for the question. I will elaborate a little on the orders to show cause and I estate was in orders because they are pending in front of the commission. We are attacking this problem with a couple of prongs. First of all, requiring contracts.
▶ 1:50:02Ms. Swett: One of the things I like to say is fundamentally, this problem is a math problem, accounting problem. It is not a glamorous problem to solve. It is kind of like a bliss figure out how much infrastructure we built for you and then let's make sure that gets on your bill. We require context to make sure we don't have stranded costs if you leave early.
▶ 1:50:25Ms. Swett: We are requiring contracts if we have to build a lot of infrastructure upfront and the project is not energized, we have a way to build the project for that cost and it doesn't go to other consumers. We have talked a lot about advanced transmission technologies at g.e.t.s.. With a strong requirement in our orders and it goes further than any commission order on consideration of g.e.t.s.
▶ 1:50:47Ms. Swett: And does that by not just asking the chilis to consider an alternative to spend but also uses study coming use of power study that can model the immense cash advanced technology and a public report. We also have some transparency because you mentioned mississippi.
▶ 1:51:13Ms. Swett: I met with the folks from inter-jen, 13 and heard about the work they are doing at the state level. We have heard from state commissioners when you're interstate 10 special projects show up at our commission, we don't always know what was spent for who. Our rules, we are asking people if you build a network upgrade to serve a large load, you have to make that public and that the state commission know so that they can then use their tariff and charge the right customer.
▶ 1:51:45Ms. Swett: None of this is perfect. But it is a big step in the right direction and we are going to get some public comment and some iteration on it and we're going to keep working with our state and colleagues to get this right created fundamentally, this is basic math, addition and subtraction. I really believe we can do this.
▶ 1:52:04Sen. Hyde-Smith: So is it necessary with your contracts?
▶ 1:52:05Mr. Rosner: Under the federal power act, the responsible use for the commission are separate from those from the state commission. So the state commissions, they are responsible for getting the bills to the end-use customers whether it is small business, home or data center. We are not responsible for that. We get the bills to the transmission system customer, which denser be like an entergy in mississippi. We need to work with the states.
▶ 1:52:34Mr. Rosner: Frankly, I don't think the country has appreciated that 30 states -- more than 30 states excellent have these rules either under development or in place. They are not perfect. We are learning a lot as we go. But that is all well and good. I am optimistic that we can make progress take regular ratepayers.
▶ 1:52:55Sen. Hyde-Smith: My time is up.
▶ 1:52:57Chair Lee: Senator hirono.
▶ 1:53:01Sen. Hirono: Thank you. I think the commissioners for, to testify today. I believe each of you testified entergy -- energy of portability, the cost of consumers is a major priority for all of you. When they put the thumb on the skill in favor of fossil fuels and not so much for renewables, think that is not keeping consumer costs uppermost in mind which I think it should.
▶ 1:53:30Sen. Hirono: For the chairwoman, in may, a company called longboard started the prefiling process with ferc for an offshore natural gas import terminal. Pipeline in hawaii. This is really the first time the state of hawaii any entity in hawaii is engaging with ferc because up till now you had little to none jurisdiction over the energy market in hawaii.
▶ 1:53:59Sen. Hirono: The terminal would fuel a gas-fired power plant. The parent company is proposing to build it. The parent company has indicated to the hawaii public utilities commission its interest in being a regulated generation utility in the state. When ferc evaluates economic new for the offshore facilities, will they consider whether hawaii should have two public utilities providing energy to the people of hawaii?
▶ 1:54:29Ms. Swett: Thank you for the question. I do love hawaii. I have spent some time there. Yes, I commit to you any application that comes before us, including this one, we have to do an analysis in order to authorize an application that involves natural gas to look at the public need for that project. And that includes a very rigorous economic analysis that would also include the factors you mention.
▶ 1:54:57Sen. Hirono: What other factors would you take into consideration as you deal with long boards application to ferc?
▶ 1:55:05Ms. Swett: There are requirements under the nepa and natural gas act essay what type of analysis ferc us to go through in order to grant a certificate we had comments that are raised on the record and also typically there will be a holistic environmental factors and economic factors. I'm happy to have ferc staff work with your staff to help you understand this better since this is the first time.
▶ 1:55:33Sen. Hirono: Ferc would consider environment factors in its decision on long boards application?
▶ 1:55:41Ms. Swett: We do have to examine the mpeg on the environment of a project and those are the direct impacts of a project on the local environment and there is a very set way in which we go about looking at that.
▶ 1:55:57Sen. Hirono: Didn't the supreme court's decision limit ferc's consideration of downstream factors as I would consume our final factors?
▶ 1:56:07Ms. Swett: No long look at the downstream impacts that we do look at the direct impact of her project that is to required under law and we take that very seriously. That would involve the direct impact upon the community.
▶ 1:56:18Sen. Hirono: How important is it to you the applicant engages the community in its project? In other words, to get input from the community. Is that something that ferc would require the applicant?
▶ 1:56:32Ms. Swett: Ferc as an office of public participation which is statutorily required by congress. We help engage communities. In my experience, generally come to stepping out of my chairman role, I find infrastructure projects that you engage communities have greater success if they're able to educate and work with the community and understand their concerns.
▶ 1:56:55Sen. Hirono: One of the concerns now is how much these data centers, maybe this is something commissioner chang can respond to because I believe you talked about it, but the use of energy by these data centers and what is ferc doing to make sure the cost of these data centers do not fall unfairly upon ratepayers?
▶ 1:57:20Ms. Chang: Thank you for that question. As part of our 206 that we discussed here repeatedly is a component with cost shift at the potential cost shift and therefore allocating the proper cost associated with network upgrades.
▶ 1:57:44Ms. Chang: So the combination of our 206 and the component of about cost shifting or limiting cost shifting as well as transparency of the costs that is triggered by data centers or other large loads as they connect to the grid, I think are poised to address the issue of cost shifting and it comes to network upgrades.
▶ 1:58:05Sen. Hirono: I think the cost shifting is a definite problem. Some jurisdictions are passing legislation to prevent data centers from even being built in their locations. Thank you.
▶ 1:58:20Chair Lee: Senator daines.
▶ 1:58:24Sen. Daines: Thank you. Commissioners, good to have you here today on the one place. A great site to see. There is one source of energy that has partisan corporative support, hydropower. It is renewable source of energy, great baseload power, low cost. I introduce the hydropower licensing affordability act with sitters rich and centers were caskey.
▶ 1:58:51Sen. Daines: This makes a small but important change to the federal act that right now resource agencies can put miniature conditions on hydropower licenses. While ferc is the agency that grants the permits for non-federal hydropower projects resource agencies like the forest service and fish and wildlife service can set mandatory conditions on a license that ferc, you welcome issue.
▶ 1:59:19Sen. Daines: This can also happen during a relicensing of an existing project. And virtually come this process can be abused. Resource agencies can end up on a wish list of projects that have no direct connection to a hydropower dam. This feels very simple. It requires all conditions to be directly related to the project. This just makes sense.
▶ 1:59:42Sen. Daines: In fact, this week I sent a letter to ferc, department of interior, department ag and permanent commerce asking them to initiate a rulemaking to address hydropower licensing including mandatory conditions for I'm going to sound like chairman lee now under section 40 -- section 18 the federal power act. A best impression of mike lee I can do.
▶ 2:00:05Sen. Daines: For each of you, with 40% of the nations hydropower fleet being relicensing, 40%, the next four years, do you agree we need to streamline and look for ways to simplify the hydropower licensing and relicensing process at a time when we are constrained as we look forward here? I would like to hear from each of you. You think we need to supply each of it? >> yes. >> absolutely. >> yes. >> yes.
▶ 2:00:37Sen. Daines: >> yes. Chairman daines I'm glad to hear yes. Now for the chairman, chairman swett, there are multiple large hydropower projects ever relicensing in montana including the thompson falls down. Will you work closely with resource agencies and push back against indirect or costly mandatory conditions imposed by agencies on existing projects?
▶ 2:01:03Ms. Swett: Yes, we are spending in an organ and amount of time on hydro during this commission right now. More than this commission never has focused on it because it is so important because those licenses are coming up for renewal and I myself am personally actively pushing back on those types of conditions when I become aware of them and they hold our processes.
▶ 2:01:27Sen. Daines: This ought to be an easy kind of licensing 101. There's much more difficult and complicated issues in front of us. Thank you for your support to find ways to move this pastor at a time we need more hydropower energy. Chairman swett come, trump signed senate bill 1022 extend licenses for additional six years. Could you give me the status of ferc's limitation of that particular law?
▶ 2:01:52Ms. Swett: Thank you. I applied were billed. Because of the delays ferc cannot control, that is very helpful. We have received a for extensions of construction deadlines under your statute and we are processing them in accordance with the terms of your statute. We have not actually granted any requests under the new law yet but that is simply a function of timing. I believe it is imminent.
▶ 2:02:17Sen. Daines: Thank you for the five vote on streamlining real I want to move to natural gas we had montana recently built a brand-new natural gas peeking plant and lower mont outside of billings to provide libel and portable electricity and maintain stability of the grid. This is the type of project we need to see installed across united states.
▶ 2:02:43Sen. Daines: We are seeing long delays for permitting at the federal and even state level. I will keep working on the state level if you can help on the federal level area commissioner lacerte, how do see changes proposed by ferc putting a patient a blanket certificate program helping to expand natural gas electricity production and leading to lower prices and remove dashboard level grid?
▶ 2:03:08Mr. Lacerte: I think the blanket programs for 30 natural gas or hydro I think they're going to allow us to focus on the hard issues so the small issues don't have to be litigated before us. It matters because time allocation, we have so many things pending before us. I am aware of how big of a challenge it has been on the permitting side.
▶ 2:03:31Mr. Lacerte: It allows us to focus on their priorities for the natural gas act to poke at that time and effort on our staffing considerations, on passing the most impactful projects we can.
▶ 2:03:43Sen. Daines: It is a big help because we are grateful we have a lot of intermittent source of power as well. We have big win projects, solar projects. As we say in montana, the wind does not always blow but the sun does shine. It is way to keep grid stability and more portability. Thank you.
▶ 2:04:00Chair Lee: Thank you. Senator gallego.
▶ 2:04:06Sen. Gallego: Thank you to all of you for your participation in this hearing. A lot of the work is closely tied to headline news. I appreciate the chance to talk about those things and more today and echo the hopes of my fellow committee members that ferc focus on sobbing issues facing america's energy system. In conversations at large, one of the most common phrases we hear is permitting certainty.
▶ 2:04:36Sen. Gallego: Commissioner chang, you and I recently discussed how permitting is vital not only in generation but delivering energy resources of all types across the country. Can you elaborate on how permitting uncertainty and transmission and delivery of energy translates to higher costs for customers across all of our energy types?
▶ 2:04:53Ms. Chang: Thank you for that question. I am glad you raised that because recently, we approved a proposal from southwest power pool that used its consolidated planning process to provide cost certainty for generators that want tender connect.
▶ 2:05:19Ms. Chang: I think this is a very innovative and sort of breaking the tradition approach to make sure that generators who want to interconnect have more information upfront so they can make their decisions about how much they want to interconnect to the grid and how much potential transmission upgrades they might trigger so they don't find that out later in the process and then have to reassess whether the projects they're developing would be
▶ 2:05:50Ms. Chang: Economically viable. I do believe consolidated process between the interconnection process so we understand what generators can interconnect at what cost they might have to pay for upgrades and transmission planning, I think that is appropriate approach that other regions probably take an example from.
▶ 2:06:10Sen. Gallego: In recent remarks come the commission with support of the parler market develop men in the west last thursday's meeting you characterized it as a win for consumers. As spp markets stay head market continue to expand and develop clear they must work together to ensure energy remains reliable and affordable for individuals and businesses in their markets.
▶ 2:06:36Sen. Gallego: Ferc recently issued an order directing a joint report from both market operators on this issue and others. My question is can how does ferc pledge of support and require long-term collaboration between spp and queso after this report is filed?
▶ 2:06:51Mr. Rosner: Thank you. I think it is an exciting time for markets, especially in the west. I've been out to visit recently and it is a wonderful thing to see different states make selections on markets that their needs. The reality is there are two choices. That makes the situation more complex.
▶ 2:07:16Mr. Rosner: The complexity has a downside to it, which is we want to make sure we can get as many benefits from the efficient dispatch, efficient use of the existing grid. What we did at our meeting in july or earlier this month was asked the regions, filed the report you just mentioned, consider how you're going to work together, what sort of formal mechanism could you have in place to minimize those things.
▶ 2:07:49Mr. Rosner: One of the things contemplated in that report is the two different grid operators, like joint operating agreement that sort of layout, here's what we will do come here's how people get paid all of those things are places where I see the opportunity for progress outlets.
▶ 2:08:23Mr. Rosner: Providing more reliable power and we already know from looking around the rest of the country where we have markets, like $10 million a year if not more.
▶ 2:08:38Sen. Gallego: You're asking for a lot of things these days. All this requires very sufficient qualified staff at the agency. What steps is ferc taking to ensure employee retention and will they need more staff?
▶ 2:08:55Ms. Swett: As my third time as a ferc employee, I care very much about the agency and the staff. I've spent a lot of time eating with every single office and trying to look as many in the face as I can breed I am pleased to say the administration -- the faces I can. I am pleased to say we currently have 1370 full-time employees.
▶ 2:09:26Ms. Swett: Since opium opened up hiring in january, we have hired 74 new employees who are mostly very qualified subject matter experts. I am pleased at this result. We still have rolling job listings posted throughout the year. I am encouraged we will continue to staff up. If congress gives us more power or more roles, then we will adjust accordingly.
▶ 2:09:50Chair Lee: Senator cotton.
▶ 2:09:53Sen. Cotton: I also want to address artificial intelligence and data centers. I get a lot of -- I hear a lot of conversation from arkansans about that. At various levels. Maybe the hassle you might say, they're concerned about the threat that china poses in the last week or so, china released another open weighted model and they want to make sure we maintain our advantage over china we had they recognized another level, great potential artificial intelligence has scientific breakthroughs, health care and permissible
▶ 2:10:24Sen. Cotton: Breakthroughs, maybe to cure cancer, alzheimer's and other terrible diseases. At a personal level, think a lot are excited about it. Many are using whether it is a giant business or small mom-and-pop or just using it for their day-to-day needs whether they are getting rehab regimen for aching knee, comparing pickup trucks they're going to buy, developing summer reading.
▶ 2:10:57Sen. Cotton: All very positive, constructive things. On the other hand, they are worried about what it means for their community's to have large data centers near them. Especially what it might mean for the strain on infrastructure, most notably, on electricity and what they're going to pay for their power bills, other the power will be there during terrible winter storms, summer heat waves.
▶ 2:11:28Sen. Cotton: Mr. lacerte, let me start with you. If a data center brings and pays for its own generation, of a data center that the hyper scalars are bringing in, they're going to build it, and they pay for the generation, pay for the upgrades, should ordinary families and businesses also pay for those facilities?
▶ 2:11:58Mr. Lacerte: We take it seriously.
▶ 2:12:02Sen. Cotton: That means the people are building these centers and using them, all this important purposes, they're willing to put on the money to build their generation markets are ratepayers, businesses, are not going to be billing?
▶ 2:12:19Mr. Lacerte: That is a core tenet of when the governors come together to agree on what the rules of the road are. I applaud the governors for come together in a bipartisan manner with the president in doing so we had that has been something that has been expanded, something that has been agreed to by the major hyper scalers in these cost which they're going to incur, they're going to be assigned to. It is something we are going to hold them to.
▶ 2:12:45Mr. Lacerte: It is something the states need to hold the hyper scalers accountable to on the retail level. It is in all of the above approach as it relates to signing costs to the data centers themselves.
▶ 2:12:55Sen. Cotton: Which right now they're perfectly willing to do. They're willing to make those investments.
▶ 2:13:00Mr. Lacerte: Absolutely.
▶ 2:13:02Sen. Cotton: You have had conversations with them?
▶ 2:13:06Ms. Swett: I've met with many who are at a minimum willing to pay all the costs associated with her interconnection. And many of them are going beyond that and offering to subsidize the community with additional infrastructure programs or even bill subsidies.
▶ 2:13:21Sen. Daines: I think the ceo
▶ 2:13:22Said -- Sen. Cotton: I think one said if they spent millions, it was a worthwhile investment.
▶ 2:13:30Mr. Rosner: I completely agree. We have had them come before our commission and testify and what they say is we would like to go fast and we want to pay for it. My view is let's let them. Your point on investments in communities, we have examples of them putting a battery in every home for people affected by having the data center nearby. Other things they have done to lower regular bills, I am completely in favor of that.
▶ 2:14:00Sen. Cotton: Is ferc to ensure there is not that kind of double recovery? Do you need other reforms or safeguards or do you think your postured well?
▶ 2:14:12Mr. Rosner: You discuss the orders to show cause that we gave to each rto and I think those orders make very important progress on making sure the consumers don't pay for infrastructure associated with data centers. Of course if congress wanted to add more specifically, I would defer to you and happy to provide.
▶ 2:14:32Sen. Cotton: Based on what I hear from arkansans come they don't want to pay more for the power bills, for these data centers but they recognize the data centers are part of artificial intelligence, whether it is going to help us beat china or a cure cancer or develop some reading plan for a kid to disregard and not follow. Thank you.
▶ 2:14:59Chair Lee: That wraps up round one. What I would like to do, any members remaining beyond this point can ask an additional question. I will ask why now and then we will go to anybody else who wants to ask additional question.
▶ 2:15:18Chair Lee: Commissioner see, last year the supreme court held in the seven county case what many of us have known and believed for a long time which is nepa is a procedural statute that requires you to review project under consideration and not the kimye live effects of all other projects. -- cumulative effects of all other projects. Taking steps to implement that ruling.
▶ 2:15:49Chair Lee: Can you sort of explained to the committee what the commission is done so far on this point and let us know to what extent in what way and what degree simplification from congress on the proper scope of nepa might help provide additional certainty for projects that are before the jurisdiction of ferc.
▶ 2:16:11Ms. See: I'm happy to talk about that. The litigation that comes from it is the biggest source of delay in getting there for structure across the finish line. Of course we have important and bare-metal responsibilities. We take that seriously. We're not doing our job to the american people at those duties ballooned beyond what the statute actually requires.
▶ 2:16:36Ms. See: One of the things the county did is confirmed nepa requires to look at the effects of the project and front of us and to not look of us and to not look at not foreseeable effects upstream and downstream. We have been taking a close look , and we are not adding additional categories required. In abundance of caution. Didn't have a clarity.
▶ 2:17:04Ms. See: What I would come back to in the question of what else congress would be doing, we are trying to make the most out of the clarity we have. Any additional clarity and other environmental statutes is critical for us to do our jobs for the american people and to do it in a predictable and streamlined fashion. >> that is a great point. We know that has helped because a lot of other countries have followed it.
▶ 2:17:36Ms. See: From my ability to -- what others have done with it, without replicating what it has become here, which is the additional delay that others have wisely avoided replicating. What we have seen from that is they are able to still capture and maintain the benefits of environmental review without having the many decades long delays that do not materially advance. Senator kaine?
▶ 2:18:10Ms. See: I want to thank each of you for being here. This has been very helpful testimony. Commission with very interesting and increasingly important array of responsibilities. Any senator who wants to submit questions for the record may do so.
▶ 2:18:38Ms. See: The deadline for submitting those questions will be at 6:00 p.m. Tomorrow, that is, thursday, and senators will have until 6:00 p.m. This coming wednesday, july 20 ninth, to add statements for the record with regard to the case hearing. >> Mr. chairman, I would like to add one comment. Like I said at the beginning, to thank you for the work you have been doing.
▶ 2:19:06Ms. See: Anybody watching this hearing, I would defy them to say which of you is a nominee of which party. And that is the way it is supposed to work. This is illuminating. The questions have been entered in a straightforward and honest way. I just really appreciate it. I think you are modeling how our government is supposed to work. Thank you very much. >> just as we were about to gavel outcome of the prodigal government -- probably -- prodigal son has returned.
▶ 2:19:37Ms. See: You thought you were off the hook, but not just yet. Do not worry. He is pretty nice. You have to call the bison. Those are the only third rails with him. >> thanks, Mr. chair. I have been on this committee for 16 years now. I worked myself all the way up to this spot. [laughter] on the committee. Can you believe that? Thanks to each of you.
▶ 2:20:06Ms. See: One of the biggest challenges we have is making sure we have the ability to move baseload energy and a special energy around the country. We need a grid system and a gas transportation system that enables us to do that.
▶ 2:20:28Ms. See: Even places like new england, other places where we find it incredible -- incredibly difficult to build pipelines. We work on streamlining regulatory reform and so forth. Our chairman and ranking member are hard at work on that.
▶ 2:20:51Ms. See: What are your recommendations to make sure also a national grid that enables us to use all forms of energy as efficiently and effectively as possible. I would like to hear the best ideas from each one of you. You can't go more than three minutes and 42 seconds or I will get in trouble with the chair and ranking member and I would not want to do that. Go ahead, sir.
▶ 2:21:23Ms. See: >> thank you, senator. I would say, you know, sitting where we have a lot of control over the markets and planning of infrastructure, one thing that has become obvious to me as it takes too long in this country. No matter what fuel source anyone might prefer, electrons, we just need a lot of energy right now. Anything congress can do to speed that up, we need it all.
▶ 2:21:59Ms. See: We spent a lot of time thinking about our processes and I will just give an example. We accelerated 50 projects in the mid-atlantic part of the country. One was natural gas power plant, over 1000 megawatts. It was going to be built in ohio. They got a grid upgrade cost of over $1 billion. Almost as expensive as the plant itself. The reason was we hadn't invested enough in the grid. You also mentioned new england. They have high prices there.
▶ 2:22:29Ms. See: $.38 delivered. Whatever congress can do to get energy or -- energy and restructuring built more rapidly, to ensure it is not uncertain once the decision has been made, that all sounds consistent. >> you think it is more infrastructure, not somehow getting the regional operators and others to make sure they figure out, we have got to have dispatch a bowl, and losers that impedes our ability it -- effectively.
▶ 2:22:58Ms. See: >> I am committed to doing the work to make sure markets are sending signals to invest in the right kind of technologies in the right places. Quite good. If that was our chairman that got you to commit to that, you have done a great job. >> I will tell you a couple of things on this. We have a responsibility over -- under the federal power act to be resource in neutral but not liability neutral.
▶ 2:23:22Ms. See: We have been really looking at our statutory authorities to make sure we are recognizing the values that come from diverse sources for a balanced portfolio, but also recognizing reliability attributes. I think further clarity from congress about how that principle, resource neutrality, is not necessarily the same thing as reliability neutrality. I think that clarity would be helpful. >> I like that.
▶ 2:23:44Ms. See: >> the second thing is piggybacking on a conversation we had with the chairman earlier, it goes to the idea that clarity is so important, when it comes to whose rules are whose as we go about our duties to move the structure faster. We are hard at work to streamline our structure. We are moving forward proposals for expanding blanket programs to ensure streamlining.
▶ 2:24:06Ms. See: But we need additional clarity from congress when it comes to our responsibility versus other federal agencies and when it comes to what is and is not required from statutes. We are doing the best we can to make sure we are moving forward. I certainly welcome any more clarity. >> thank you. >> thank you, senator. I will be a bit aggressive here. My two things are, first, ending state abilities to effectively veto across state lines through the clean water act denials, cuts both ways.
▶ 2:24:37Ms. See: It can hold up gas pipeline infrastructure, and interstate transmission lines. Congress having more clarity, that states cannot effectively veto through denials, would get more infrastructure bill. The second one is limiting the ability of judicial review to hold up project, some of my colleagues and I have worked on big appeals of pipelines that went decades long, and if there were a statutory limit on how long judicial review can go,
▶ 2:25:08Ms. See: That would be extremely effective in making efficient and less expensive infrastructure projects. >> that was aggressive. Like the second one. I was a governor for 10 years. A little trepidation there. Thank you for coming to see me this week. Last week, I guess. Go ahead. >> thank you, senator. I will throw a whole bunch of acronyms. I concur with many of my colleagues have mentioned we need backbone transition.
▶ 2:25:39Ms. See: That is allowing interconnection of all generation types. I think this is a time when we enable more demand-side resources to participate in general.
▶ 2:25:57Ms. See: That requires states to step up and make more demand-side responses to the grid and then we had mentioned here already, the advance transmission technologies, a no-brainer. We need to use them whenever appropriate and economically viable. The best solutions for all consumers should be on the table. >> I will speak quickly.
▶ 2:26:26Ms. See: You asked what we can do to help. We have homework assignments that keep us busy. The biggest thing they can do is reduce these roadblocks and hurdles to getting things run again. Biggest thing we can do is clarify the scope is limited. Discharge, not the activity as a whole.
▶ 2:26:48Ms. See: Section 106, we can codify a process related statute to consider the effects on historic properties. Sections 40 and 18, we need to clarify the hydra facility should only have the answer for direct effects on the federal reservation or fisheries under 18.
▶ 2:27:12Ms. See: Section seven of the endangered species act, we need to inform -- main locks are holding, that clarifies the best commercially available data and not worst case scenario to get the benefit of the doubt to the species when issuing biological. >> thank you for your patience. If they were that good all day, you had a good hearing. Thank you. >> well, the maine lobster made an appearance and that made it worth it in and of itself.
▶ 2:27:41Ms. See: Lobster men being something I know is very important at the economy of la marque, north dakota. Indeed. Totally. >> appreciate that, senator. >> are you good to go? With that, we stand adjourned. Thank you again and we appreciate the great work.