▶ 0:16:31>> good morning, everyone. Thank you to the ranking member and the chairman for helping to convene this hearing. For 250 years, the american economy has told a consistent story, one of relentless innovation, bold risk-taking, and unmatched ability to turn ideas into industry. The secret sauce in that formula is the continued growth and expanded american prosperity of innovation.
▶ 0:17:00Throughout our history, particularly since the end of world war ii, the U.S. has been the world's foremost laboratory for fundamental science and we lead the world in turning that research into revolutionary inventions and commercial products and as our expert witnesses discuss -- will discuss, the bush model of basic research for universities and research has served our nation incredibly well.
▶ 0:17:25However, we have never faced as fierce competition as we do today. Earlier this year, china approved its 15th five year plan for national economic and social development.
▶ 0:17:41According to a recent congressional research service report, their goal is self-rt relies on by boosting advanced manufacturing and materials, equipment, machine tools, high-end instruments, with industrial applications of robotics and artificial intelligence, calling for p.r.c.
▶ 0:18:05Leadership in emerging sectors for making other decisive breakthroughs like biotechnology, semi conductors, and software. Don't be confused, the prc's and is not just about self-reliance. It's an economic and strategic framework for identifying critical supply chains in industries and systematically stealing intellectual property, subsidizing manufacturing, and dumping products to ensure that
▶ 0:18:36Other countries cannot compete at scale. We have seen this across multiple strategic industries and the breadth and pace is only increasing. The p.r.c. Has joined the U.S. is the only other country to spend over $1 trillion annually on research and development. By 2024, the p.r.c. Accounted for 33% of global research development flow. The U.S. share had declined from 39% at the start of the 21st-century down to 29 percent.
▶ 0:19:10We must be clear eyed about the competition we face and this committee can play a significant role of setting the metrics by which we define scientific success and place the federal research enterprise on stronger footing. First, we need to better prioritize outcome based metrics as a gauge of impact competitiveness.
▶ 0:19:33Influencing international standards, leading high impact research, measuring adoption, is paramount. Additionally, evaluating the strength of public private partnerships in instances of university funding research can signal which lines of applied research are most valuable in making the greatest impact.
▶ 0:19:53Second, this committee should look at ways to streamline, focus, and improve the agencies under its jurisdiction, like the national institute of standards and technology and the national science foundation. Mr. copan, you authored an important white paper entitled return on investment for unleashing american innovation.
▶ 0:20:19It recommended improving tech transfer, strengthening r&d partnerships with the private sector, and improving access to federal r&d assets for businesses. Given the significant focus of the p.r.c. On standards of development I look forward to discussing ways in which this world-class talent in meteorology can be better targeted to enhance U.S. competitiveness in emerging technologies.
▶ 0:20:44Finally, the committee should look carefully at chinese scientific and intellectual property theft that significantly undermines american economic dominance and national security. We firmly believe the U.S. is well-positioned to continue to lead the world and amazing discoveries and breakthroughs that inspire countless none men and women to engage in science and build the technology companies that shape the future. However, we are at a critical inflection point if we want to maintain and improve the lead.
▶ 0:21:15We can help to secure that leadership by rethinking the metrics by which we determine success, streamlining world-class science agencies and looking for ways to further partner with the private sector unshared applied research priorities. I would like to recognize ranking member baldwin to deliver her opening remarks.
▶ 0:21:37Senator Baldwin: Thank you to chairman budd for holding the hearing and thank you to the witnesses for being here. We share a commitment to ensuring america's global leadership in science and innovation. The trump administration says it shares that, but actions across the federal government tell a very different story.
▶ 0:22:00Senator Baldwin: Rather than strengthening american research enterprise to stay competitive and make lifesaving breakthroughs, at every turn this administration has undermined its institutions that make our scientific leadership possible. The broader context matters for today's hearing.
▶ 0:22:24Senator Baldwin: President trump terminated or froze $3 billion in grants between the national science foundation and the national institutes of health. He has continued to illegally pursue efforts to dismantle the department of education. He has targeted some of our leading national research institutions through litigation.
▶ 0:22:50Senator Baldwin: He revoked over $200 million in previously approved tech hub funding and most recently, he proposed a rule that would empower the administration to weaponize federal grants for political purposes.
▶ 0:23:06Senator Baldwin: He also fired every member of the national science board, which is charged with key congressional and oversight goals, including directing key strategic decisions for nsf's future. Scientific leadership is not inevitable. It is built through sustained public investment and long-term national commitment.
▶ 0:23:37Senator Baldwin: It takes funding basic research, even when the payoff might be years away. It takes educating and inspiring the next generation of scientists, engineers, and innovators. It takes equipping our national laboratories and research solutions with cutting edge technology and tools that they need to succeed.
▶ 0:24:00Senator Baldwin: If we want to make sure that america is a global leader in scientific and technological advancements, we cannot continue to let this administration continue down this path. Congress has the authority and responsibility to stand up to this administration when it undercuts science in such a dramatic way. We write the federal budget.
▶ 0:24:28Senator Baldwin: We should be strengthening, not dismantling, public education, research institutions, and our national laboratories. We should be expanding and not cutting the investments that fuel discovery, drive economic growth, keep america ahead of our competitors. That is how we win the future and I look forward to hearing from our witnesses. Thank you, Mr. chairman.
▶ 0:24:55Chair Budd: Thank you. I would like to introduce our witnesses for today. Our first witness is walter copan, at the colorado school of mines, senior advisory co-founder of renewing american innovation at the center for strategic international studies. Under the first trump administration he served under as under secretary of commerce for standards and technology, the 16th director of which.
▶ 0:25:27Chair Budd: Our second witness is Dr. drew endy, bio strategy director at stanford university. He has extensive experience in bio security and currently serves as a disk -- defense science board emerging body national security task force.
▶ 0:25:45Chair Budd: Our third witness is robert atkinson, founder and senior fellow at the foundation for technology innovation foundation , who previously worked as -- at the progressive policy institute to direct projects at the office of technology assessment. Our final witness is Dr. julia phillips, who spent 20 years at sandia national laboratories where she let strategy is the vice president and chief technology officer.
▶ 0:26:19Chair Budd: Dr. copan, you are recognized for five minutes. Pull the microphone close. Push the button to talk.
▶ 0:26:24Dr. Copan: Chairman, ranking member, thank you. Members of the committee, distinguished participants, thank you for the opportunity to testify on these important topics that. I serve as senior advisor with csis, as mentioned. Also as the undersecretary and director of mis-c.
▶ 0:26:45Dr. Copan: I was a director of the department of energy national labs and my experience spans both government and academia, in addition to industry, multiple start ups, and the nonprofit sector as an executive entrepreneur and investor. China is both a formidable strategic competitor and major trading partner. We are in a real global contest for technological leadership and the measurements that matter show clearly that the U.S. must raise it's a game.
▶ 0:27:16Dr. Copan: Success requires immediate action to strengthen our research enterprise and a long-term vision for technological dominance. By design, the senate is built of focus on the long game. This committee has a unique opportunity and responsibility to leverage that perspective, placing the U.S. on a generational trajectory to retake and maintain global leadership. Consider for example that simple change of having leaders confirmed for six years for strategic continuity. Two decades ago, the U.S.
▶ 0:27:46Dr. Copan: Was the clear global leader in science, technology, and innovation. Today by many internationally recognized measures, china has overtaken U.S. leadership in 67 critical fields, including base production technologies, surpassing the united states in total r&d investment and should no longer be viewed only through the lens of intellectual property theft.
▶ 0:28:12Dr. Copan: It has become a major technological force with modern infrastructure and a capable science, engineering, and manufacturing workforce, now leading the world in highly cited top-tier publications and patent families across critical technologies, including biotechnology, quantum information science and technology, robotics, semi conductors, and artificial intelligence, strengthening their own ip system and the protections to counter areas where the U.S.
▶ 0:28:41Dr. Copan: Leads while substantially increasing their influence in international standards. Meanwhile, the U.S. has allowed the strength and enforceability of our intellectual property protections to decline, weakening the global value of american inventions.
▶ 0:29:02Dr. Copan: Measuring strategic advantage requires more than counting publications, patents, or workforce dollars spent, it requires an ecosystem view considering the fundamentals of strategic competitiveness, research innovation capacity, manufacturing capability, capital workforce, standards leadership, trusted supply chains, and enforceable ip rights. The tech edge analysis integrates these factors showing U.S.
▶ 0:29:29Dr. Copan: Leadership advantages continue to stack against precision technologies. Achieving the dexterity to build ecosystem strengths across multiple technology domains is a strategic national imperative.
▶ 0:29:45Dr. Copan: Public r&d is indeed our great engine of productivity, startup formation, and national competitiveness, but recent disruptions and self-inflicted wounds have slowed the research enterprise, weakening american capacity with competition that is extremely strong in running the accelerated race.
▶ 0:30:05Dr. Copan: To translate investment -- invention into impact is essential and we must with modern stephenson wide letter use the implementation of the return on legislative proposals for speed and productivity in r&d collaborations. Our security depends on the reliability and effectiveness of our r&d, intellectual property, standards manufacturing and intellectual systems.
▶ 0:30:34Dr. Copan: We have much work to do in education, preparing leaders at all levels for building a domestic workforce and continuing to attract and retain talent globally to strengthen our innovation economy. We must enforce the rights of american innovators here and around the world, incentivized is a participation in standards development, and invest strategically to enable you manufacturing innovation and production capabilities.
▶ 0:31:02Dr. Copan: International scientific collaboration with trusted partners and competitors is of vital strategic asset, accelerating discovery, expanding the talent pool, expanding critical supply chains , protecting american leadership. Defending our interests with engagements to support trade that must be open, fair, and strategically sustained.
▶ 0:31:25Dr. Copan: Navigating intense competition we must also recognize a profound strategic threat of allowing the rest of the world to dictate global technical standards and finally we must make the U.S. innovation system or agile, faster, reducing burdens, modernizing law practice, removing barriers to encouraging investment, defending innovators at home and abroad against malign threats. Thank you for the committee's important work to secure U.S.
▶ 0:31:53Dr. Copan: Science, technology, and leadership are economic and national security and I look forward to your questions. >> thank you. Dr. endy, you are recognized for five minutes.
▶ 0:32:03Dr. Endy: Members of the committee, thank you for the opportunity to testify. I teach and research of bioengineering at stanford and teach the strategic leadership mission at the hoover institution, cofounding companies that built dna, my wife left academia to start a company that brews the ingredients going to essential medicines.
▶ 0:32:27Dr. Endy: I want to acknowledge the work of the national security commission on emerging biotechnology chaired by senator young. Their work is the best work I've seen in this town on biotechnology. I want to emphasize the most recent commission finding, recommendations from the commission that have been read by beijing and implemented by beijing. Bringing us to this hearing. Chairman, thank you again for your framing of the topic.
▶ 0:32:55Dr. Endy: Most topics on competition ask questions like who is in the lead, but you are asking a more important question, how would we know. It brings us to measuring what matters. Let me tell you a story about being in paris last fall for the genetic engineering olympics I started at m.I.t.. 5020-year-olds from all of the world, most now from china. I found a young gentleman from shanghai dressed up like a crawfish in this big red costume. I said, what are you doing?
▶ 0:33:26Dr. Endy: He said he was working on engineering enzymes to degrade the material in crawfish shells so that they could be repurposed to make new things like clothing and shielding, stuff like that. Why?
▶ 0:33:38Dr. Endy: He says because someday there will be chinese astronauts on mars and when they are on mars they are going to need to have a spicy crawfish soup for lunch and I want to make sure there is a closed loop bio economy manufacturing capacity on mars to make sure they have that spicy crawfish soup for lunch so that they remember that they are chinese on the red planet. That's what we are complete -- competed with. The vibe.
▶ 0:34:08Dr. Endy: Divide is -- the vibe is good in beijing. How we measure that? Biology is not like other technologies. Imagine if you could somehow feed your cell phone sand so that it would get bigger and bigger and bigger and divide so that you have two cell phones. That's what biology does on the regular. We don't really know how to measure biology like we do other forms of emerging technology. Let me give you a more specific example.
▶ 0:34:38Dr. Endy: Who is the best in the world at building dna? That's the molecule that includes all of life and is probably the industrial polymer of the 21st century. Who's the best in the world that it? No one in the U.S. government knows. Not nys t, not the department of energy, know what I know in intelligence. We could answer these questions if we did something about it.
▶ 0:35:13Dr. Endy: In high school there is a physics, chemistry, and biology. If we think about this, it has the physical measurement laboratory for physics where you get the kilogram in the meter. This has a material laboratory for chemistry and a little biology. It doesn't have a bio measurement laboratory yet. We could really use one.
▶ 0:35:43Dr. Endy: There are many things that congress could do but getting a bio laboratory at nist could help us get in a good position for competing. Don't take my word for it on that one. Your U.S. china commission last year made getting a bio measurement laboratory their number four most urgent recommendation. So, it's not just me. Thank you very much for the opportunity to testify tonight and I look forward to your questions.
▶ 0:36:08Chair Budd: Thank you. Dr. atkinson, you are recognized in thank you for wearing carolina blue on the necktie.
▶ 0:36:17Dr. Atkinson: Even if I'm a carolina blue, I'm still a good person. Chairman, ranking member, thank. Members of the committee, thank you for holding this important hearing. I'm going to try to push the envelope a bit. The normal debate on science is more money or less money. That's the debate. While I am on the side of more, I also think it's time for a fundamental change in the U.S. research system.
▶ 0:36:45Dr. Atkinson: We need to abandon the dominant paradigm of investor lead investigator led basic research that has been in place since world war ii. It worked great when the U.S. was dominant. In 19 62 the U.S. government invested more in r&d than the rest of the world combined. It's one of the reasons we are dominant today. That world no longer exists. China invests more in r&d than we do overall.
▶ 0:37:15Dr. Atkinson: We now have an aggressive and capable competitor who can absorb our knowledge it's -- knowledge. It's one of our -- their core knowledge. Some of it is through theft and sometimes it's going to conferences and just reading what we do in they can turn that basic fundamental research into discoveries. That lets them turn into competitive products. So yes, we need more money, but we also need a new system. What is the current system?
▶ 0:37:46Dr. Atkinson: Multiple factors, but basically four. One, there should be no strings attached. Give the researchers money. Basic research is more important than applied. All disciplines are equal. You should pick among disciplines and science should be global. It worked in the past, but it doesn't work now. There are disciplines that are more important.
▶ 0:38:15Dr. Atkinson: Science cannot be the same as we face this new competitor and I think there have to be strings in the sense that we should be looking for certain types of outcomes and accomplishments from our funding, not just saying we hope that something happens. Why is that so important? As you mentioned, there is a crs report on china seeking technological independence. He rightly noted that it is more than that.
▶ 0:38:41Dr. Atkinson: If that were all that was, it would be good but it's not fundamental. They are seeking technological dominance, in my view, seeking to replace our advanced companies with their's and the most advanced industries. As xi jinping stated, technological innovation has become the main battleground of the global playing field and competition for tech dominance will get fierce. Note the words battlefield and dominance.
▶ 0:39:10Dr. Atkinson: He is signaling what he wants right there. The evidence is pretty clear that the chinese are at least on par with us. They have 3 million researchers, we have one .7. They had 57,000 articles in health science journals and we had 36,000. Most interestingly according to "nature," the new study on the top 25 research institutions globally, I bet if I asked anyone in this world -- room how many of the uss?
▶ 0:39:42Dr. Atkinson: Might say 12 or 15. We have three. Stanford is on the list but not at the top. The chinese have 21 of the top 25 and if you did the inverse scoring, they are six times ahead of us. So, what do we need to do? I would argue that we need to shift more funding into applied research. It's called the trl technology readiness level. Move it up.
▶ 0:40:15Dr. Atkinson: Target funding national economic power industries. That's what the chips in science act did. 10 new technologies important to the future? Great, let's do that. Nsf need to take more seriously the broader impact assessment. We've shown the other impact. The reality is, it's not taken seriously.
▶ 0:40:40Dr. Atkinson: Another key area, you mentioned metrics. One of those metrics to me is industry tell funding research. I mentioned that north carolina leads the country in terms of industry funding. Nc state, duke, wake forest, others. It's fantastic. The evidence is so clear that you get more start offs, spinoffs, more commercialization.
▶ 0:41:10Dr. Atkinson: I know we are not on the finance committee, but just change the rule for the credit saying that if you fund the university for basic research, but applied credits are worse. That doesn't make any sense anymore. Funding university research, you should get a generous U.S. scientific knowledge.
▶ 0:41:36Dr. Atkinson: One easy thing is just chinese bump stocks. Chinese postdocs don't stay here. Chinese phd students do. Postdocs don't. They suck up the information and take it back to china. Expand recent guidance on unit -- U.S. universities.
▶ 0:41:57Dr. Atkinson: Nsf has exposure rule saying you have to get approval for dual use technologies on the entities list. Ok. That is one chinese university the top of the world and ok to partner with them but another one that works with the pla? We've got technology areas where we need much more careful oversight. With that, I think you for your time.
▶ 0:42:24Chair Budd: Thank you, Dr. atkinson. Dr. phillips?
▶ 0:42:28Dr. Phillips: Thank you very much. Chairman, ranking member, members of the subcommittee, my name is julia phillips and I am a past leader of research organizations in the private sector, research physicist, at the dle laboratory. The views on presenting today are my own. I was a member of the national science board for 10 years until april 2026.
▶ 0:42:54Dr. Phillips: For six of those years I chaired the board committee meeting the biannual commission on science and engineering indicators, recently published in may. The report is a policy relevant, policy neutral source of high quality U.S. and international data. The data tells a sobering story, as we have already heard. While the U.S.
▶ 0:43:18Dr. Phillips: Has led in science and engineering for over 80 years, the response to the rapid advance of china has been inadequate. We heard some of that, but there is more. S and t is the new global currency of power. China has pulled ahead of us in important indicators, from r&d expenditures to high-tech manufacturing. The threat to our future economic prosperity and national security is very real. The U.S.
▶ 0:43:45Dr. Phillips: Who has become accustomed to the perks that come from being number one with the outsized influence on the global culture and setting those standards. China does not play by those rules will have more influence as their ascent continues. Absent action, we will not like the outcome.
▶ 0:44:11Dr. Phillips: Federal investments in the enterprise have been key to american success. Taxpayer supported r&d is a balanced public investment portfolio that supports efforts across a wide range of risk, potential payoff, and time horizon. From year term mission needs to long-term investments into the fundamental science with prospects for significant future benefits.
▶ 0:44:37Dr. Phillips: Government funded basic research is our national seed, having yielded impressive rewards in contributions to prosperity. A unique feature of american s&e that has paid off handsomely and discoveries that have enabled countless transformative technologies, including today's critical and emerging technologies.
▶ 0:45:01Dr. Phillips: Part of the unique mission of the national science foundation is to promote the project -- progress of science through funding, research, and education in all nonmedical fields of science and engineering. In addition to providing seed corn, we exist to protect the country from scientific and technological surprise. An unanticipated discovery in another country that could have grave consequences for the U.S.
▶ 0:45:31Dr. Phillips: Chronic under investing in this part of the r&d portfolio might save money in the short run, but it reduces future yields. Lest -- less seed corn for the future of our nation. The threats are clear. There are internal threats and external threats. Long-standing and newer threats embodied in new and proposed policy changes.
▶ 0:45:57Dr. Phillips: They must be addressed, recognizing, preserving, strengthening key aspects of the culture of science that our country lead in creating. It's essential for the continued leadership at the forefront of discovery. The U.S. is rapidly approaching a stem talent crisis cliff. The k-12 enrollment is falling. Students are not prepared to train for stem jobs at any level . Foreign student enrollment is dropping.
▶ 0:46:25Dr. Phillips: World-class science requires broad participation in the global scientific community. Some fields require unique facilities built and operated by international partnerships. U.S. scientists need access to them in all fields.
▶ 0:46:43Dr. Phillips: Open communication to publication and participation in meetings, collaboration, and dialogue is essential to progress, decreasing the risk of scientific technological surprise with proposed rules like a charlie curtailed his pillar of the enterprise, using -- leaving the U.S. vulnerable. A hallmark of best in class science is rigorous peer-reviewed being the deciding factor in funding decisions.
▶ 0:47:08Dr. Phillips: These decisions made in high-level policy guidelines must be made by experts in the field who cover a range of well-informed approaches. Funding decisions must be honored in full to preserve the integrity of the s any enterprise. The U.S. must renew investments in an commitment to historic strengths in science and engineering.
▶ 0:47:35Dr. Phillips: Open culture, active participation in the global s&e enterprise, the system for the best ideas can compete for resources and world leading s&e capabilities and talent. It's imperative that the very attributes that made our ecosystem the envy of the world be strengthened and harnessed to create a future that is worthy of our past. Thank you.
▶ 0:47:58Chair Budd: Thank you, Dr. philip. Thank you to all the witnesses. Dr. endy, you mentioned crawfish in the 5000 person team in shins and ready to move on american research accomplishments in biological engineering at speed and scale. You also mentioned your support for the creation of a biological measurement laboratory at nist.
▶ 0:48:26Chair Budd: Is china applying that scale, speed, and resourcing to biology work and standard-setting? >> what I have observed is that china appears to be building national laboratory scale facilities for the 21st century across all sciences, particularly biology and biotechnology. They are advantaged in that by starting with such an effort they are not burdened by a legacy portfolio.
▶ 0:48:54Chair Budd: Sometimes it's easier to build a new house than to renovate an old house. The work that they are capable of doing because of the capacity that they have is significant in the following way -- when I have an idea in biology, I won't know if it works or not until I build it and test it. Let's say I'm interested in an ai tool that generates a string of english. I can quickly judge if the text is good or bad.
▶ 0:49:23Chair Budd: If I have an ai tool trained on dna sequences that generates novel dna sequences, what do they do? What does it mean? The only way to really know is to build and test the dna and see what it does and feed the measurement back into the modeling platform to get a better model.
▶ 0:49:46Chair Budd: If you want world leading foundation language models for biology, you need the laboratories to go along with it . That's the capacity I see being developed throughout china, scale, measurement, and experimentation with prototype tinkering and experimentation of resolutions. We don't have anything like it. Not in the united states and europe.
▶ 0:50:15Chair Budd: >> you mentioned it might be easier to build a new house than to renovate an old house. Understood. If we have some of the old house that needs renovating, what of the parts that are difficult to renovate?
▶ 0:50:28Dr. Endy: Thank you for the question. What I look to nist, I say -- see a great history of science with a culture and spirit that is like no other institution I have encountered. It is a world and national treasure. The amazing thing about biology is that it operates at the intersection of physical science and energy science.
▶ 0:50:54Dr. Endy: So, those aspects of nist are profoundly important to advancing bio measurement. But don't make the following mistake, in my opinion. I saw this at m.I.t. When we started the new -- biological engineering department there 20 years ago. No one who wasn't in the department that didn't exist yet wanted the department. You know?
▶ 0:51:24Dr. Endy: Nobody wanted another person at the table competing. They said that they were already doing the biology stuff, they had it taken care of. That wasn't really true. It became important to create a new thing so that the space could fill in breathe, mature over time. Keep in strength of the expertise in the physical science, chemical science at nist in their ability to do an amazing job according to an industry coalition.
▶ 0:51:56Dr. Endy: At the same time, recognize that there needs to be something for biology itself. Biology is a big space. 5% of our domestic economy. It is poised to grow by a significant amount. Shame on us if we don't figure out how to get a good investment for a bigger return.
▶ 0:52:21Chair Budd: What would be the consequences of the chinese standards we can the globally adopted standards? >> a powerful question. What would be the consequences if theunix computer operating systems have not been invented in new jersey or if the technical standard for packaging hadn't been propagated by nsf.
▶ 0:52:51Chair Budd: Looking at the future biotechnology, it's not about only the organisms we find in medicines and stuff like that. It's a bottom-up manufacturing platform reshaping how we build the majority of our economy. Think of a future where people can solve these problems locally . That content is going to have to come from somewhere.
▶ 0:53:18Chair Budd: It will have to be accessible through a bio net network for manufacturing on demand. Whether it is countermeasures or polymers, anything that it can genetically encode. The platforms for the soft power, the hard power, the economic power, is at stake right now. One of the reasons beijing has been big on bio is not just because they needed, they need food and everything else, they also see that the bio race is not yet won.
▶ 0:53:51Chair Budd: It's open. That is what is at stake.
▶ 0:53:53Chair Budd: Thank you very much. Member baldwin?
▶ 0:53:57Sen. Baldwin: Thank you all of you for your presence and your testimony. Dr. phillips, in april, without notice the trump administration terminated all 22 members of the national science board. You had been a member of that board since 2016.
▶ 0:54:17Sen. Baldwin: And he shared their science and engineering policy can can you briefly summarize the critical role that nsv plays in the work of the national science foundation? Make it your elevator speech, I have a follow-up.
▶ 0:54:33Dr. Phillips: Very briefly, in the statute it is stated that the national science board has two roles. One, paraphrasing, is to essentially serve as the board of directors for the national science foundation. Overseeing strategy, major investments, as well as a portfolio at a very high level, appropriating things.
▶ 0:54:58Dr. Phillips: The other is to advise the president and congress on the state of science and engineering in a global context. There is no department of science in the U.S. government. Different from most countries.
▶ 0:55:23Dr. Phillips: This is a department of science role that expands far beyond nsf.
▶ 0:55:29Sen. Baldwin: I understand the trump administration removed members of the board just before you were set to release a congressionally mandated report on american science and engineering. I'm deeply concerned about the chilling effect the removal will have and how those removals will affect oversight.
▶ 0:55:56Sen. Baldwin: How will the work on nsf be impacted without a board in place?
▶ 0:56:02Dr. Phillips: That's a good question and a lot of it probably lies in the details. I will say that the report on science and engineering indicators was published in may because there had been a favorable vote to release it. So, that was released. Going forward, actually in reality it's the way the board had been forced to function.
▶ 0:56:34Dr. Phillips: For more or less the last year. We never saw the budget submitted to congress. We were not informed about other things the board had engaged on. In the past that had to do with syria science issues, facilities operations.
▶ 0:57:03Dr. Phillips: Getting a good amount of that information. It was hard to tell where the block was coming from. My personal opinion is that it was not coming from within nsf itself.
▶ 0:57:20Sen. Baldwin: When china makes a sect or a strategic priority it achieves global dominance when left unchecked. We cannot let china achieve dominance in biotechnology. It is critical to public health and economic strength in national security.
▶ 0:57:41Sen. Baldwin: Wisconsin is a national leader in the bio health industry due to investments in strong research institutions, advanced manufacturing, workforce training, and industry partnerships.
▶ 0:58:01Sen. Baldwin: This includes our bio health tech hub focusing on personalized medicine and advancing the adoption of the next generation of theranos states. It was the congressional committee with the senator's leadership that passed the legislation that allowed a number of tech hubs to be identified throughout the country. Dr. endy, can you -- this is sort of a complement to senator budd's last question of you.
▶ 0:58:33Sen. Baldwin: Can you expand on the dangers of losing our global leadership role in biotechnology to china? What would a world look like where china leads in biotechnology?
▶ 0:58:47Dr. Endy: I was privileged to grow up near valley forge in pennsylvania when this nation went on a technology innovation run. Generative ai, crisper, you name it. If I had grown up in one is arius, I would have looked to the U.S. and concluded it was magic land. But is this faraway place? I would simply have to get there.
▶ 0:59:16Dr. Endy: The thing that is at risk, in my opinion, to my children and their children, is that magic land will not be the united states, it will be china. That's the big picture. If I think about wisconsin, I was privileged to study in madison for a time.
▶ 0:59:39Dr. Endy: There is the center for forest mycology research in wisconsin, it holds a collection of strains of wood fungus. Where these organisms important? Turns out they are. They take wood and convert it into other material. It's like I get hub, a code based work transforming one type of matter into more valuable products.
▶ 1:00:06Dr. Endy: Right now we have that in wisconsin and are at risk of losing it. We are at risk of seeing a future where china opens up the genetic resources of the world, re-factors them, repackages them and makes them available for the future content kids for biotechnology. The bad news is it will be ours in terms of terms and conditions. Those are the sorts of things at stake. It is hard to overstate it.
▶ 1:00:42Dr. Endy: Because biotechnology is as diverse within itself, it's woven with in all aspects of our lives. >> thank. >> senator.
▶ 1:00:57Senator: As people -- as someone born in bogotá, colombia, I will tell you that america is so magic land. Dr. atkinson, do you think chinese automakers are normal morning editors? -- competitors?
▶ 1:01:16Dr. Atkinson: There is no normal industry in china. One reason they are so successful is they forced foreign companies to give them the technology if they wanted to sell to china. The massively subsidized cvs. --evs. They are not normal. We need to think seriously about limiting those imports to the U.S.
▶ 1:01:45Dr. Atkinson: We can compete with a chinese firm that didn't steal intellectual property, find, toe to toe. Good. There is no way in my view that american automobile companies can compete with this kind of competition.
▶ 1:02:01Senator: Would you read the U.S. auto sector is one of the most important economic engines in america? Dual use. Not only factories in terms of production but in times of need, auto plants that are uniquely important?
▶ 1:02:20Dr. Atkinson: Absolutely. We created a methodology to look at all of those industries in classify them into dual use and nothing, perfume industry, chinese could take our perfume industry and who cares. Their major donovan import from us in terms of their share his christmas tinsel.
▶ 1:02:45Dr. Atkinson: When you look at an industry like the auto industry, dual use enabling, there is so much talent related to metal forming and all sorts of other things and I think you saw that recently when the secretary of defense signed new contracts, realizing that we cannot produce as much as we need in terms of defense material. If we lost the auto industry, we would be significantly harmed.
▶ 1:03:13Senator: I think you would agree that once chinese subsidized firms are embedded, it becomes almost impossible to reverse that. I think we are seeing that in europe. I remember being a mercedes dealer, germans would talk about their country's dominance in auto and have germans would never purchase anything other than a german car.
▶ 1:03:41Senator: Yet because of chinese vehicles being allowed into those markets with impunity, volkswagen, who had never laid off workers in its history, laid out 150,000 auto workers. What would happen if we allow that to happen in the U.S.? How hard is it to reverse that when it happens?
▶ 1:04:01Dr. Atkinson: The germans made a strategic mistake. There companies had ya there companies had yuan in their highs and fall they could keep selling, but they couldn't and they let those chinese firms in. Your point is exactly right. Let's say that american consumers get a dealer should never, get you stood buying chinese cars, they will keep buying more of them.
▶ 1:04:27Dr. Atkinson: If we let the chinese in in any way, shape, or form in my view it will be detrimental to U.S. companies and you could imagine one of the big three going out of business and the other two seeing significantly smaller market share.
▶ 1:04:43Senator: Do you think it's important to limit equity participation among chinese companies in western auto brands? In other words, there is this idea of passive shareholders. This idea that if I own a share in federal express, somehow I matter to federal express executives. Is it problematic to let the equity threshold get to the point where you have basically over influence in those companies?
▶ 1:05:10Dr. Atkinson: Absolutely. We've long argued that sify's needs reform. If it's two narrow -- too, does it become related to defense? If chinese companies take equity to auto suppliers, they will gain influence and move a lot of the technology to china. I would have a complete ban on chinese equity in nationally important industries.
▶ 1:05:41Senator: Tomorrow we will take of the national securities act, which we worked on with our colleagues. It is important to show that we are unanimously behind this. It's not a democrat or republican issue. There's a lot of things we can disagree on, but ensuring that we don't allow what you just described to happen, it's critically important that we get it across the finish line. Not just a passive, but pass it unanimously.
▶ 1:06:11Senator: I urge my colleagues to support this.
▶ 1:06:13Chair Budd: Thank you for your work on that legislation, senator moreno. Senator hickenlooper? You are recognized.
▶ 1:06:23Senator Hickenlooper: Talk about good timing. For someone like me who is not known for timing.
▶ 1:06:28Chair Budd: Welcome back.
▶ 1:06:33Senator Hickenlooper: Yes, thank you, Mr. share. I have crossed paths with some of these people at various times. Dr. copan more than anybody, as he's in colorado, who has his finger in more pies than anyone I know and always has good hygiene. Washes his hands, terrible metaphor. I shouldn't use that kind of metaphor.
▶ 1:07:04Senator Hickenlooper: Dr. endy I have heard about just because I have an old guy a few years ahead of me at wesleyan, through him I got to know eric lander and some of the folks, and my son just graduated from stanford. He had an engineering degree that had a lot of biological aspects of energy. Anyway, I guess I will start with you, doctor.
▶ 1:07:29Senator Hickenlooper: As you have all said, research, science, engineering, technology , is essential to advance our competitiveness. The essential fundamental building blocks of society.
▶ 1:07:54Senator Hickenlooper: We have seen a drop in r&d, dropping now below that of chinese investment. Significant risk. You all talked about continuity and support on all of these levels and obviously, it is always good to reconsider and look at things. We want to make sure that we can continue to make sure breakthrough technologies are born from U.S.
▶ 1:08:23Senator Hickenlooper: Investments in basic research. We know that. Using obviously global research as well. The research example I have written down here is the research from the nsf in the 70's on human cognition that really helped to create the, these breakthroughs in machine learning and intelligence, artificial intelligence. Back in the 70's, it seemed kind of non-applicable.
▶ 1:08:56Senator Hickenlooper: It wasn't clear where the benefit would come. This is one of the reasons where myself and senator mccormick have funded the bipartisan innovation in science caucus, to make sure that there are still more of us talking about and focusing on this aspect Dr.
▶ 1:09:15Endy: Dr. endy:. , how can we balance this need for basic research along with the critically important process of applications?
▶ 1:09:25Dr. Endy: It is my opinion, senator, that the public treasure is best spent on foundational science and engineering research and I'm concerned that in my career we have drifted away from that. The problem occurs when you get too close to the application layer. The number of applications of technology are infinite. The requests that come in for money become infinite.
▶ 1:09:50Dr. Endy: If you get the foundation's right, you get high leverage long-term discoveries and investments that translate the science and nobody can be picked up and brought to market. So, my experience, the most important thing to do is sustain public funding for foundational science and engineering research . To your comment in passing, over longer time scales.
▶ 1:10:20Dr. Endy: That is for you get the improbable inventions and breakthroughs that profoundly change what becomes classified.
▶ 1:10:25Sen. Hickenlooper: I don't think that there is anything wrong with balancing entrepreneurship and science. I view myself as an entrepreneur. No more than two or three scientists U.S. senate. There are just very few of us, now.
▶ 1:10:47Sen. Hickenlooper: Science, curiosity, the discipline of science is closely correlated both -- correlate able I? Was an english major, originally. [laughter] at that same time, place of the creativity. Correlates very well. Dr.
▶ 1:11:16Sen. Hickenlooper: Copan, we discussed this a couple of times. Open source models empowering startups and small businesses to innovate, they face intense strategic rivalry from global competitors. Like deepseek and kwin. How should nist and national standards bodies measure open source ai benchmarks?
▶ 1:11:48Dr. Copan: Thank you for the question and it is the trend we have to deal with. Looking at the measurements of systems that work and open source technology development is part of the global ecosystem. We've seen benefits to the U.S. economy and risks coming in as well.
▶ 1:12:11Dr. Copan: So, having an institution, including the work that nist is doing that can measure and understand the vulnerabilities and be able to put in place the right kind of guidance principles to support the safeguards that the economy needs for the future will be essential.
▶ 1:12:33Sen. Hickenlooper: Appreciate that. I'm out of time, but one of my political mentors, devoutly apolitical, tom check, is at the university of colorado. If you can handle the politics of a university, you can handle anything.
▶ 1:12:50Sen. Hickenlooper: Making sure that when he came back, they built a research tower and entrepreneurial tower side-by-side to facilitate that without attracting all the capital, keeping much of it in basic research. I will yield back the floor.
▶ 1:13:05Chair Budd: Chair budd: senator young?
▶ 1:13:11Senator Young: Chairman, thank you to you and the ranking member for convening the panel. It's good to see doctors endy and atkinson again. Thank you for your work. China has emerged as a competitor in artificial intelligence, biotechnology, and other what we are calling emerging technologies. Critical scientific fields.
▶ 1:13:41Senator Young: Today scientific data is often generated across various institutions and companies using different formats and standards. Dr. endy, how does the lack of consistency and interoperability limit the ability of ai tools to make use of that data?
▶ 1:13:57Dr. Endy: The simple answer, senator, is garbage in, garbage out. If you can't even collect the garbage, you cannot even try. To get a good foundational model, you need data to be consistent from the source by which it was gathered, and the methods by which it's gathered. The examples of this that have worked with protein structures.
▶ 1:14:25Dr. Endy: Sustained public investment in determining three-dimensional shapes of proteins. How the atoms are positioned, resulting in data that data set was good enough, you could train nai ai model that was able to predict millions of protein shakes. That is because congress supported investments for positioning of adams making proteins.
▶ 1:14:54Dr. Endy: The other example, the best one we've got is the sequences of dna and all the organisms around us. You can use that to train large language models not on english but on dna. Those are the only two data sets that we've got right now that allow us to peer into what is possible with ai and bio converging.
▶ 1:15:21Dr. Endy: Project genesis, dario gill, we are having very active discussions about how to scale better data sets that feed into the ai algorithms. If we cannot understand what we are measuring, if we cannot compare one measurement to another place, none of this works. That is what is at stake.
▶ 1:15:48Sen. Young: It is sort of a plain, vanilla title. What is today's garbage by coming up with appropriate standards could be rocket fuel for the economy, it could become the feedstock of scientific breakthroughs and innovations and even geopolitical strength if we were to treat data as the
▶ 1:16:19Sen. Young: Strategic asset that it is. As chairman on emerging biotech which you are mentioning earlier , the chinese are being attentive to our recommendations, I was pleased to introduce the ai ready bio data standards act along with my colleague so that the united states could start training biological data as the national strategic asset.
▶ 1:16:51Sen. Young: Standardizing that data and preparing it to be used in ai enabled sciences is very important. It is only the first step in modernizing american innovation.
▶ 1:17:07Sen. Young: As congress contemplates data security, what is our role in ensuring scientific data is our resource and doesn't end up in the hand of competitors such as china and should there be similar security standards?
▶ 1:17:36Dr. Atkinson: I think the university community has been I don't want to say asleep at the switch, this is not something they really want to do. It is a position on the university committee. That has to change. There are many cases where the chinese will take our data, move it over there and do amazing things. We have to say we are not going to allow that.
▶ 1:18:07Dr. Atkinson: The came out with some rules. We need even stronger rules to limit the amount of data as well as technical knowledge. Universities are not incentivized to do that. They are incentivized to get money and partnerships. I think it is up to the government to impose our view on that system.
▶ 1:18:32Sen. Young: I would also note that it is time for government to posture itself for the long haul. This ai enabled age. To that end I would contribute some legislation, the future of artificial intelligence innovation act, this codifies the center for ai standards.
▶ 1:19:02Sen. Young: In our allies to ensure engagement and development use of information standards for ai. I may be submitting a couple of questions for the record to pass this legislation. Thank you. >> thanks for your work on that important area.
▶ 1:19:23Sen. Blunt-Rochester: Thank you to our ranking member and the panelist for this important and insightful hearing as we talk about strategic competition and both the vulnerabilities that our country faces as well as the opportunities. I hope this creates a sense of urgency. That's what I have gotten from this panel.
▶ 1:19:56Sen. Blunt-Rochester: We are talking a lot about this country in ai. I was excited to hear about the colorado school of mines recently launched first of the nation bachelor's degree in quantum systems engineering. I think I was coupling my excitement of that with what Dr. endy said about we need vibes.
▶ 1:20:25Sen. Blunt-Rochester: I want the two of you if you can talk a little bit about going back to basics, I'm in delaware, I got a farmer and he or she wants to incentivized their kid to go to this school or its high school student in wilmington, or a city, why should they go into this to my farmer?
▶ 1:20:53Sen. Blunt-Rochester: Let me just say the reason I'm connecting this is it connects to our ability to be competitive and not be dominated. We have a workforce that goes into these fields.
▶ 1:21:03Dr. Copan: Absolutely agreed. The colorado school of mines is recognized saying that educational outreach about the opportunities that matter for the future and connecting people with the emerging innovation economy so they can see themselves in it. An open mind.
▶ 1:21:37Dr. Copan: How will they be educated and what's the top way for them to have a set stressful -- successful and prosperous life?
▶ 1:21:46Sen. Blunt-Rochester: What is quantum?
▶ 1:21:49Dr. Endy: There's a deeper question and response I would like. China's bet as they watched people will remain innovative over time. Free people are more innovative. What does that mean in response to your question? Over 100 years ago the united states built a large number of public libraries. That gave everybody the option of learning.
▶ 1:22:22Dr. Endy: If you change the first letter I in library to a you get labrary. Imagine rerunning the public library playbook to get 3000 public libraries in towns throughout the united states of america staffed by librarians.
▶ 1:22:48Dr. Endy: Their job is to help people find options on the frontiers of science and technology to make those options their own opportunities and to bring those opportunities forward into their local economies, solving local problems.
▶ 1:23:09Sen. Blunt-Rochester: Thank you for sharing that. I served as secretary of labor. The notion of making sure we build the workforce that we have the pipeline is really important to me. I also want to shift, delaware is home to world-class pharmaceutical industry. The university of delaware's a national institute for innovation.
▶ 1:23:42Sen. Blunt-Rochester: I am particularly interested in the technologies that will shape biotechnology. From your perspective, what advancing will empower the U.S. to better compete in biological research and bio manufacturing over the next decade?
▶ 1:24:00Dr. Endy: We have to get better at measuring biology, making biology, tinker and tested the prototype. Pressure, model, make. All of those are of paramount importance. Everybody wants the applications of biology delivered right away because they are so urgent.
▶ 1:24:25Dr. Endy: Because of that we risk under investing in the foundational tools to make it easier to make sense of it, model it, re-present, try the new thing. We need the whole investment and whoever holds that.
▶ 1:24:45Dr. Endy: The reason silicon valley leads is not only because of the venture capital community but it's because we have a culture of tool developers who are always developing the next generation of tools, prototyping, testing. We will have no chance at being world leaders.
▶ 1:25:02Sen. Blunt-Rochester: I will ask Mr. atkinson, Dr. atkinson, for the record about our supply chains, it is a big area that we worked on as a committee. If I could ask all of you to just share with me as again someone who is interested in the workforce your thoughts on how we could build a stronger quantum workforce and I yield back.
▶ 1:25:33Sen. Blunt-Rochester: >> great questions, it has been a great panel. I think we all have some questions for the record that we are going to leave with you. You didn't know you were going to leave here with homework. Senators have until the close of business on the 28th to submit those questions for the record.
▶ 1:25:59Sen. Blunt-Rochester: This concludes today's hearing, the committee stands adjourned, thank you.